You son of a bitch. You start from the presumption that the terrible oppression
visisted on the innocent people of Palestine by Israel is deserved, and so when
people take up arms to defend themselves, you, you apologist for murderers,
revile them.
I started to say “Get lost!” but I realize you are lost, lost in the cult of
Zionism.
RLA
meshehu wrote:
> In article <wVGn6.785[email protected]>, “People’s Pizza”
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > It’s just a ploy by the Israeli state terror machine to clear Beit Jala and
> > build settlements there for the Zeolots.
> >
> >
> > Roger Alexander <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]…
> > > Can anyone think the Israelis are anything but monsters?
> > > RLA
> > >
> > > =========================================
> > >
> > > Dear Friends,
> > >
> > > For a third night in a row, Israeli tanks shelled areas of Beit Jala.
> > > Around 9 pm, without any warning, an explosion rocked our area as the
>
> Since the tanzim and various other lowlife “terrorists” are using these
> homes as sniper headquarters, and have refused to heed the objections and
> pleas of the arab christian population they have forcefully displaced in
> order to do so, they get what they deserve.
From [email protected] Fri Mar 9 16:09:53 EST 2001
Article: 258869 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed.atl!news2.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
From: Roger Alexander <[email protected]>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: Re: Monsters
References: <3A9EDD9C.67AD6D[email protected]> <[email protected]>
<3A9FFA6A.1363C5[email protected]> <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 18
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 16:00:29 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.206.134
X-Trace: news2.atl 983570310 208.63.206.134 (Fri, 02 Mar 2001 16:58:30 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 16:58:30 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:174756 soc.culture.israel:327842 soc.culture.usa:603383
soc.culture.canada:258869 soc.culture.british:552624
You saw and snipped the point.
RLA
Omri Schwarz wrote:
> Roger Alexander <[email protected]> writes:
>
> > And the farmer hauled another load away. This is quintessential Zionist
> > rhetoric.
> It is the truth.
>
> Beit Jalla is a sniper’s nest, hence the shelling.
> —
> Omri Schwarz —
> Timeless wisdom of biomedical engineering:
> “Noise is principally due to the presence of the
> patient.” — R.F. Farr
From [email protected] Fri Mar 9 16:09:53 EST 2001
Article: 258870 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!
news2.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
From: Roger Alexander <[email protected]>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.canada,
soc.culture.british
Subject: Re: Finkelstein’s Holocaust Book Sells 50,000 Copies In 2 Weeks In
Germany
References: <[email protected]> <3A9F2C33[email protected]> <[email protected]>
<3A9FF[email protected]> <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 109
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 16:05:54 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.206.134
X-Trace: news2.atl 983570636 208.63.206.134 (Fri, 02 Mar 2001 17:03:56 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 17:03:56 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:174757 soc.culture.israel:327843 soc.culture.usa:603385
alt.revisionism:870161 soc.culture.canada:258870 soc.culture.british:552625
Mr McVay is a low life sort of person.
I regret getting into a piss fight with this skunk.
But Oh well.
Comments interspersed.
RLA
“Kenneth McVay, OBC” wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> Roger Alexander <[email protected]> wrote:
> >This idiot McVay runs a small subsidiary of the Holocaust Industry, known
> >as Nizkor.
> >It has no means of making money that I know of, and so depends entirely on
> >contributions
> >from B’nai Brith Canada. One of their efforts is “exposing” those who
>
> Sorry, Mr. Alexander, but that is incorrect (as usual, in your case).
> B’nai Brith Canada does not contribute to the Nizkor fund, it simply
> accepts donations and disberses funds on Nizkor’s behalf. If the
> donations dry up, as they sometimes do, no funds are available.
>
You want disburse not disberse. B’nai Brith could not exist if Jews did not
contribute to it. There may be a point in there somewhere, but I fail
to see it. If B’nai Brith did not want you to continue, it would shut off your
funds.
Period.
RLA
> >differ with the Holocaust Orthodoxy, which is sought to be made illegal to
> >argue with, and has so been made illegal
>
> The last time you defined this “Holocaust Orthodoxy,” Mr. Alexander,
> you embarrassed yourself. Perhaps you would like to do so once again,
> and define it for your new readers.
>
Perhaps you would like to put up this alleged definition and explain what about
it is embarrassing to me.
RLA
>
> You might also reiterate your belief that 50% of American Jews are
> liars.. I’m sure folks would find that strange assertion of interest.
>
I might say that for the first time, but since I do not believe it, I will leave
it to you
to put up the alleged quote.
RLA
>
> >in Germany and France, and I believe in some other countries. He is a real
> >piece of work.
> >I often disagree with Matt Giwer, but I find him rational and intelligent.
> >This is more than
> >I can say for McVay, for whom I have developed a fine contempt.
>
> Please do redefine this “Holocaust Orthodoxy,” Mr. Alexander. I expect
> it will prove as embarrassing for you this time as it did the last.
>
Please put ‘er up and we’ll discuss her. I look forward to it like a visit to
the dentist,
or to the surgeon, but I am game.
RLA
>
> Giwer?
>
> Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only
> interest is in causing fights. While he can sound superficially
> plausible, he has lied** about what has been said in exchanges (while
> accusing others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not
> to see posts which contain documented refutation of his claims (even
> when they have been emailed to him), engaged in actual libel*, and
> generally conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual
> and factual integrity that there seems to be no point in taking
> the time to read and respond. For detailed and documented
> evidence of this, please refer to
> https://nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/
>
> If you do not enjoy the luxury of a news filter, simply delete Mr.
> Giwer’s articles unread. With a few moments’ practice, they are easy
> to identify.
>
> Mr. Giwer’s handlers report that he has responded well to training, and
> now reacts in the prescribed manner, changing his userid each time the
> bell is sounded.
>
> Followups to Giwer trolls should be redirected to Mr. Giwer’s special
> newsgroup, alt.bonehead.matt-giwer, where they will be appropriately
> ignored (the group has no users – it’s just a convenient toilet for
> Matt’s vomitus). If your site does not carry alt.bonehead.matt-giwer,
> redirect non-Holocaust articles to alt.politics.white-power,
> an equally vapid dumping ground for Giwerundian babblings.
>
> Crawler bait: [email protected] Matthias Giwer
> Lincoln James <[email protected]> Matthias Giwer
> Kainee <[email protected]> Matt Giwer
> Rabbi Moshe Dreckschreiber
> Rabbi Dr. Gedalia Pashkvilkemacher
>
> —
> IBM and the Holocaust: The Strategic Alliance between Nazi Germany
> and America’s Most Powerful Corporation, by Edwin Black
> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0609607995/thenizkorproject/
> The Nizkor Project: https://nizkor.org
From [email protected] Fri Mar 9 16:09:53 EST 2001
Article: 258871 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!howland.erols.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed.atl!news2.atl.POSTED!
not-for-mail
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
From: Roger Alexander <[email protected]>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: Re: Monsters
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 57
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 16:21:31 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.206.134
X-Trace: news2.atl 983571582 208.63.206.134 (Fri, 02 Mar 2001 17:19:42 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 17:19:42 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:174760 soc.culture.israel:327845 soc.culture.usa:603400
soc.culture.canada:258871 soc.culture.british:552629
meshehu wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>, Roger Alexander
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > You son of a bitch. You start from the presumption that the terrible
> oppression
> > visisted on the innocent people of Palestine by Israel is deserved,
>
> No I didn’t you illiterate sack of fetid fishguts.
I have to laugh. “illiterate sack of fetid fishguts”. You are still a rotten
SOB, but you get the palm for that.
RLA
> I started from the
> factual declaration that the tanzim displaced entire families of christian
> arabs from their homes, so that they could snipe jewish (civilian)
> neighbourhoods… knowing full well that the IDF would retaliate in
> defence of -it’s- citizens (unlike the PA who apparently don’t give a shit
> about their civilian populations).
Israel has no civilians in the West Bank. Those people are all illegitimate
colonists,
illegal as all Hell. Get them the Hell out of there and there won’t be any
need for
a Tanzim. Get it? I can make it clearer if need be.
RLA
>
>
> Arafat should have signed a peace deal instead of goading and conniving
> his people into this bullshit, all so that he could stoke his emotionally
> crippled ego and finally have his glorious “jihad” before he croaks.
>
No leader or any group of so’called leaders could sign the crazy deal
you bastard sons of bitches wanted themn to sign. You weren’t willing
that the Palestinian people should have their own country on their own land.
Bastards. They will, though.
RLA
> The “innocent palestinians” are fighting the wrong people. They should be
> going after their slimeball leaders and the clinically psychotic murderers
> in the hizbella etc. etc. etc.
No, the Hizbollah aren’t psychotic. They forced you sons of bitches to leave
Lebanon after you had invaded it and made it a Hell hole for eighteen years.
And no the Palestinians aren’t fighting the wrong people, in fact, most of the
Palestinians you bastards have killed haven’t been fighting anyone,
just like the poor man you killed last night, then maligned the dead by saying
he was
a bomber. You are real pieces of work, you are.
From [email protected] Fri Mar 9 16:09:54 EST 2001
Article: 258872 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.atl!
news2.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
From: Roger Alexander <[email protected]>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.palestine,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,
soc.culture.british
Subject: The struggle is global –
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 46
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 16:28:38 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.206.134
X-Trace: news2.atl 983571999 208.63.206.134 (Fri, 02 Mar 2001 17:26:39 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 17:26:39 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:174762 soc.culture.israel:327846 soc.culture.palestine:113045
soc.culture.usa:603404 soc.culture.canada:258872 soc.culture.british:552630
The struggle is global –
allegra
Some time ago, in an attempt to discredit one of the Zapatista leaders
in Southern Mexico, Sub-Comandante Marcos, Mexican
government officials there tried to put forth the idea that Marcos was
homosexual. In a region where machismo still runs strong,
it was hoped this would tarnish the leader’s credibility. He responded
by writing a poem…
“Yes, Marcos is gay.
Marcos is gay in San Francisco
Black in South Africa
an Asian in Europe,
a Chicano in San Ysidro,
an anarchist in Spain,
a Palestinian in Israel,
a Mayan Indian in the streets of San Cristobal,
a Jew in Germany,
a Gypsy in Poland,
a Mohawk in Quebec,
a pacifist in Bosnia,
a single woman on the Metro at 10 pm
a peasant without land,
a gang member in the slums,
an unemployed worker,
an unhappy student
and, of course,
a Zapatista in the mountains.
Marcos is all the exploited, marginalized,
oppressed minorities resisting and saying
“Enough”. He is every minority who is now
beginning to speak and every majority that
must shut up and listen. He is every
untolerated group searching for a way to
speak. Everything that makes power and the
good consciences of those in power
uncomfortable — this is Marcos.”
– Sub-Comandante Insurgente Marcos
From [email protected] Fri Mar 9 16:09:54 EST 2001
Article: 258879 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed.atl!news1.atl.POSTED!
not-for-mail
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
From: Roger Alexander <[email protected]>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.canada,
soc.culture.british
Subject: Re: Finkelstein’s Holocaust Book Sells 50,000 Copies In 2 Weeks In
Germany
References: <[email protected]> <3A9FF[email protected]> <[email protected]>
<3AA01[email protected]> <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 150
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 18:03:12 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.206.134
X-Trace: news1.atl 983577672 208.63.206.134 (Fri, 02 Mar 2001 19:01:12 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 19:01:12 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:174771 soc.culture.israel:327857 soc.culture.usa:603454
alt.revisionism:870174 soc.culture.canada:258879 soc.culture.british:552667
“Kenneth McVay, OBC” wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> Roger Alexander <[email protected]> wrote:
> >Mr McVay is a low life sort of person.
> >I regret getting into a piss fight with this skunk.
>
> On the other hand, you don’t mind saying that 50% of American Jews are
> liars… interesting.
>
> >> Sorry, Mr. Alexander, but that is incorrect (as usual, in your case).
I was wrong the other day about the crazy group torturing a Palestinian.
When I am wrong I generally admit it. Other than that, I would be in your debt
to show me the error of my ways. I would bet you have no examples
(that you can document).
RLA
>
> >> B’nai Brith Canada does not contribute to the Nizkor fund, it simply
> >> accepts donations and disberses funds on Nizkor’s behalf. If the
> >> donations dry up, as they sometimes do, no funds are available.
> >>
> >
> >You want disburse not disberse. B’nai Brith could not exist if Jews did not
> >contribute to it. There may be a point in there somewhere, but I fail
> >to see it. If B’nai Brith did not want you to continue, it would shut off your
> >funds.
>
> The point, Mr. Alexander, is that B’nai Brith does not provide my
> funding. I am not in the least surprised that you do not understand,
> but that’s your problem, not mine. You made the false claim that
> Nizkor was funding by B’nai Brith, and I called you on it.
>
The point is that from your own statements, your money comes through B;nai
Brith. I said, and I stand by it, if B’nai Brith didn’t want you doing what you
do so well in your little corner of the Holocaust Industry, you would be out
tomorrow.
RLA
> Live with it, Bubba.
I notice that Mr. McVay cannot back up his assertions. Indeed he can’t deal with
any
point I raised. One more time he defames me by asserting that I had
claimed that: “that 50% of American Jews are
liars… interesting.” /see above. I had requested him to provide substantiation.
He didn’t. For the record, I do not believe Jews as a group are liars,
no substantial portion of them, certainly not half. Now the Zionists on this
board are another matter. These people lie for pastime, and propagate the
current party line as fervently as any Communist ever did their line.
I reproduce below the whol post that he has snipped. the reader can see that
he has failed to take up the gauntlet, contenting himself iwth repeating
his defamatory falsehoods, and ending by calling me “Bubba”,
which in the south means a good ol’ boy, generally one of limited intelligence
though of good heart. I understand it means an old woman in another
idiom. In either case it is derogatory. All I say is is that he can’t debate.
I have come to despise him.
BTW, he didn’t put up the allegedly wrong and embarrassing definition
of the Holocaust I supposedly put up either. Maybe he will find
something, may be won’t. I bet he doesn’t. He is rather windy.
RLA
Mr McVay is a low life sort of person.
I regret getting into a piss fight with this skunk.
But Oh well.
Comments interspersed.
RLA
“Kenneth McVay, OBC” wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> Roger Alexander <[email protected]> wrote:
> >This idiot McVay runs a small subsidiary of the Holocaust Industry, known
> >as Nizkor.
> >It has no means of making money that I know of, and so depends entirely on
> >contributions
> >from B’nai Brith Canada. One of their efforts is “exposing” those who
>
> Sorry, Mr. Alexander, but that is incorrect (as usual, in your case).
> B’nai Brith Canada does not contribute to the Nizkor fund, it simply
> accepts donations and disberses funds on Nizkor’s behalf. If the
> donations dry up, as they sometimes do, no funds are available.
>
You want disburse not disberse. B’nai Brith could not exist if Jews did not
contribute to it. There may be a point in there somewhere, but I fail
to see it. If B’nai Brith did not want you to continue, it would shut off your
funds.
Period.
RLA
> >differ with the Holocaust Orthodoxy, which is sought to be made illegal to
> >argue with, and has so been made illegal
>
> The last time you defined this “Holocaust Orthodoxy,” Mr. Alexander,
> you embarrassed yourself. Perhaps you would like to do so once again,
> and define it for your new readers.
>
Perhaps you would like to put up this alleged definition and explain what about
it is embarrassing to me.
RLA
>
> You might also reiterate your belief that 50% of American Jews are
> liars.. I’m sure folks would find that strange assertion of interest.
>
I might say that for the first time, but since I do not believe it, I will leave
it to you
to put up the alleged quote.
RLA
>
> >in Germany and France, and I believe in some other countries. He is a real
> >piece of work.
> >I often disagree with Matt Giwer, but I find him rational and intelligent.
> >This is more than
> >I can say for McVay, for whom I have developed a fine contempt.
>
> Please do redefine this “Holocaust Orthodoxy,” Mr. Alexander. I expect
> it will prove as embarrassing for you this time as it did the last.
>
Please put ‘er up and we’ll discuss her. I look forward to it like a visit to
the dentist,
or to the surgeon, but I am game.
RLA
>
> Giwer?
>
> Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only
> interest is in causing fights. While he can sound superficially
> plausible, he has lied** about what has been said in exchanges (while
> accusing others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not
> to see posts which contain documented refutation of his claims (even
> when they have been emailed to him), engaged in actual libel*, and
> generally conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual
> and factual integrity that there seems to be no point in taking
> the time to read and respond. For detailed and documented
> evidence of this, please refer to
From [email protected] Fri Mar 9 16:09:54 EST 2001
Article: 258880 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed.atl!news2.atl.POSTED!
not-for-mail
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
From: Roger Alexander <[email protected]>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.palestine,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.british,
soc.culture.canada
Subject: Bill Friend on Zionism and Judaism
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 617
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 18:31:03 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.206.134
X-Trace: news2.atl 983579344 208.63.206.134 (Fri, 02 Mar 2001 19:29:04 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 19:29:04 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:174774 soc.culture.israel:327860 soc.culture.palestine:113052
soc.culture.usa:603466 soc.culture.british:552671 soc.culture.canada:258880
The ongoing conflict, that for practical purposes I will arbitrarily
state started in earnest on November 2, 1917 has been labeled in most
media as either “The Israeli-Arab Conflict” or the “Israeli-Palestinian
Conflict” or some variant on those two. Quite often, one will find in
newspapers and journals in the Arab world and elsewhere, that this
conflict is referred to rather as “The Jewish-Arab Conflict” or the
“Jewish-Palestinian Conflict”.
Aside from some articles, often cited by pro-Zionists, that occur from
time to time in the Arab press, which do resemble the classic
anti-semitic articles of 19th century European and American papers, such
as Henry Ford’s Dearborn Independent, which was the first journal in N.
America to unabashedly publish the infamous forgery, The Protocols of
the Elders of Zion; quite often, “Jew” is substituted for “Israeli” when
discussing this “Hundred Years War”.
Zionists will point to both the former and the latter as being
irrefutable proof that “the Arabs” are “anti-semitic”. Of course one
then gets into the silly debate, often initiated by Arabs, and most
famously once by Yassir Arafat, of “how can I be anti-semitic when I am
a semite?” This of course is either entirely disingenous, or is an
honest misunderstanding of the word, anti-semite, which in fact was
coined by a 19th century German, who was in fact a Jew hater, and was
meant as a “polite society” term for someone who did in fact hate Jews,
for whatever reason that individual might entertain. Of course those
in “polite society” in that century, often thought that the word “Jew”
itself was a pejorative, and so spoke of Jews as “people of the Hebrew
persuasion”. The absurdity of this phrase is obvious, although it has
carried over into the 21st century. The official arm of the Reform
Judaism movement in N. America is The Union of American Hebrew
Congregations, the UAHC. It’s archaic sound to modern ears prompted a
petition at one of the UAHC semi-annual conventions, to have the name
upgraded to something more modern sounding. I proposed “Jews R Us” but
it fell on either deaf or humorously compromised ears.
The question that is begged is, if when one hears an Arab youth, as I
did at a rally in Times Square, shout “Death to the Jews” is that person
referring to Jews as Jews (i.e, as members of the Judaic religion) or is
that person hurling that epithet from the context of the conflict in the
Middle East in which his reference point for what constitutes a Jew, is
a person who has been the cause of his subjugation in the area formerly
known as Palestine?
This question is a serious one, and not strictly a matter of semantics,
because since the beginning of Political Zionism formally begun at the
First Zionist Congress in Basel, Switzerland in August of 1897, there
has been the very real attempt by Zionists themselves to equate Zionism
with Judaism, and in fact have them be one and the same.
This notion reached its zenith after the United Nations General Assembly
passed Resolution 3379 on 10 November 1975. The hue and cry that went
out defensively after that document was passed was that “ZIONISM EQUALS
JUDAISM!!!”, and thus, Resolution 3379 was “anti-Semitic”.
Parenthetically, one should also note that the attempt at equating
Zionism and Judaism was also made in a book of the period entitled “The
New Anti-Semitism” in which the authors stated rather frankly that when
one spoke of Zionists in a derogatory manner, one was in fact speaking
of Jews, and thus to be anti-Zionist was a “hidden” form of
anti-Semitism. This proposition was successful for quite some time,
for anyone speaking out or “daring to speak out” against the policies of
Israel towards its non-Jewish inhabitants, based on very real
injustices, was often cowered or silenced by the charge of being
anti-Semitic.
This notion, of course is absurd on its face. Criticism of any
sovereign state, based on its actions vis a vis its citizens and/or
resident aliens is certainly a legitimate endeavor. Iran, the
self-described “Islamic Republic” is roundly criticized, and rightly so,
for its many human abuses under its ruling clerics. When one hears some
fundamentalist Christian such as Pat Robertson speak of the United
States as “a Christian Nation”, a hue and cry go forth, and rightly so,
based on the wall of separation of church and state in the U.S. as
codified in the U.S. constitution, and defined by Thomas Jefferson.
Thus, it should not be surprising, that if Israel, by law, defines
itself as “The Jewish State”, that some who are critical of its policies
attack “The Jews” for being the cause of their suppression. But of
course, this is not polite.
It is important to note that UNGA 3379, never once has the word “Jew”
contained within it. Moreover, as is commonly misstated, it does not
state that Zionism equals Racism, but rather that Zionism is a form of
Racism. And yet the cry that went out after the passage of this
resolution in “the organized Jewish community” and repeated as a mantra,
was that Zionism equaled Judaism.
I quote portions of the text of UNGA 3379 because it bears examination:
” The General Assembly,
Recalling its resolution 1904(XVIII) of 20 November 1963, proclaiming
the United Nations Declaration on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial
Discrimination, and in particular its affirmation that “any doctrine of
racial differentiation or superiority is scientifically false, morally
condemnable (and) socially unjust and dangerous” and its expression of
alarm at “the manifestation of racial discrimination still in evience in
some areas of the world, some of which are imposed by certain
Governments by means of legislative, administrative and other measures,”
[ emph. mine]
Recalling also that in its resolution 3151 G (XXVIII) of 14 December
1973, the General Assembly condemned inter alia the unholy alliance
between South African racism and zionism,
Taking note of the declaration of Mexico on the Equality of Women…held
at Mexico City from 19 June 1975 to 2 July 1975, which promulgated the
principle that “international co-operation and peace require the
achievement of national liberation and independence, the elimination of
colonialism, and neocolonialism, foreign occupation, zionism, APARTHEID,
and racial discrimination in all its forms as well as the recognition of
the dignity of peoples and their right to self-determination,”
……
Taking note also of the Political Declaration….adopted at the
Conference of Ministers for Foreign Affairs of Non-Aligned Countries
held…from 25 to 30 August 1975, which most severely condemned zionism
as a threat to world peace and security and called upon all countries to
oppose this racist and imperialist ideology,
Determines that zionism is a form of racism and racial
discrimination.”
There is not one mention of Judaism in this document, as one of the
worlds great religious doctrines, or to Jews who are defined as those
individuals who follow the religion of Judaism. And yet over the course
of the years, Zionism has in fact co-opted rather successfully, the
practice of Judaism and in the minds of many individuals, such as World
Jewish Congress chairman, and head of the Seaman’s Corp., Edgar
Bronfman; Zionism or Israel worship has replaced Judaism as their means
of self-identification as Jews. Bronfman himself, a very powerful
individual within not only “the organized Jewish community” but within
the hierarchy of the World Zionist Organization/Jewish Agency, legally
an arm of the Government of Israel; has frankly admitted that he rarely
if ever steps foot inside a synagogue to observe the Judaic faith.
Now I need to be clear here, that I am not criticizing an individual for
choosing to not observe a particular faith into which they were born.
That is clearly a valid choice. It is the fact that one has substituted
what has in practice become a racist ideology, for that religion, and
then proudly declare oneself a Jew AND a Zionist which gives me great
pause.
I again quote from the article by Rabbi Michael Lerner with regard to
the Zionist project:
“Yet Judaism has been one of the causalities of this project. To the
extent that Judaism has lost its ability to critique the distortions of
the Jewish people, to the extent that it has become a cheerleader for a
particular state, its army, its fundraisers, and its ideological support
structure, Judaism has lost its connection to God and Torah. Instead of
reclaiming its role as the voice of possibility, it has allowed itself
to be subsumed as a prop to a deeply flawed existing reality.”
[emph.mine] ( TIKKUN vol.13, no.2 Mar/Apr 1998 p. 35)
The spontaneous resurgence among Jews at a grassroots level, against
Zionism, similar to that which occurred among prominent Jews early in
the 20th century, typified by such various new groupings as Not In My
Name, Jews For Racial and Economic Justice, The Struggle, and others
arising in response to what is seen as a total perversion of Jewish
belief as personified by Israeli government policies, and their
supporters overseas is the palpable result of very real observations.
Again, citing Lerner;
” Many young Jews (who) visit Israel…are appalled by the lack of moral
sensitivity, the racism, and the absence of any larger spiritual
vision….
Worse still, the transformation of American Judaism in the past fifty
years into a cheerleading chorus for whatever direction the Israeli
government has taken has caused major disaffection among the generation
of Jews who grew up after the Holocaust. Growing up in a Jewish
community dominated by fundraisers and the rich, told that any questions
about Israel reflect a self-hating mentality, many younger Jews have
been forced to look elsewhere for a moral and spiritual alternative to
the ethos of…some institutions of the organized Jewish community.
Israel and its cheerleaders have in fact become impediments to
Jewish continuity” (ibid.)
It is no secret that except in Orthodox Jewish communities, “organized
Judaism” in the form of synagogue or temple affiliation, or affiliation
with secular Jewish organizations has suffered from a loss of
membership, that in some cases has been precipitous. Many
congregations, even in large Jewish communities such as those in the NY
Metro area have merged out of a need to pool overhead expenses. The
reason of course, for this is the lack of ability to attract
congregants. Now, some of this is the obvious result of a change in
demography, the retirement of some Jews to other states such as Florida
or other areas of the sunbelt. Yet many young Jews who might want to
affiliate don’t see the point, since many Synagogues are more engaged in
fealty to Zionism through fundraising events such as The United Jewish
Communities Pledge Drives or attendance at investment interests such as
Israel Bonds, rather than in an attendance to their “spiritual” needs,
however one cares to define that last term.
Moreover the unspoken rule of “omerta”, not to criticize the state of
Israel in public, “lest the gentiles notice”, has left many young
thoughtful Jews in a quandary. If one chooses to speak out, one is
denegrated by epithets, therefore vote on this with your feet by
disaffiliating. Many of the laws of the Zionist state of Israel, and
many of the common practices are entirely antinomial to any Jew raised
in the ideals of Western Democracy. Many find the current recidivism in
such denominations as Reform, which have entered a separatist phase; as
enumerated in the 1999 Declaration of Principles of the Central
Conference of American Rabbis (CCAR); abhorrent to their own core
beliefs as to what Judaism ought to be about. That these laws have been
directly responsible for repression of a native people is, at least to
this writer, the most abhorrent thing of all, because it goes against
the most fundamental premise of Judaism which is, “Choose life”, the
lesson of the founding myth, The Akida, the “Binding of Isaac”.
The current generation of Jews is seeing made manifest, what their
great-grandparents predicted,
” The oppression of the Palestinians has persisted, and the anger of the
world’s peoples at the Jewish people’s insensitivity is growing (when we
wake up to this in the 21st century, will we then revert to explanations
that talk about the ‘inherent anti-Semitism of the non-Jew,’ or will we
be willing to recognize that Israel, speaking in the name of THE JEWISH
PEOPLE, has been pursuing policies that would rightly anger the morally
sensitive throughout the world?)” (ibid.)
Twenty-three years ago, this writer was pointedly told by Rabbi Elmer
Berger, the long time executive director of The American Council for
Judaism – the oldest and still existing anti-Zionist secular Jewish
organization – “now that you know the truth, keep it to yourself or you
will be ostracized”. He told this to me because I was a young man
starting out in my profession and he did not wish to see me ruined. He
had seen this done to others who dared to speak out. I had asked him
why he was able to do so, even though he was personna non grata to the
“organized Jewish community”, and he remarked that he was fortunately,
independently wealthy.
For many years, I kept my own council, and then as more and more of the
violations of human rights, and outright atrocities perpetrated by the
state of Israel, in the name of Jews, became more publicized and more
manifest, I found other Jews finally coming out, as did prior, more
clear eyed generations of Jews did , against this perversion of not only
Jewish morals, but universal morals.
The most trenchant of these criticisms, which strikes at the heart of
every Jew who remembers the Nazi genocide; and everyone should remember
the Nazi genocide; is contained in an essay in the book Walking The Red
Line- Israelis in Search of Justice For Palestine, publ.New Society
Publishers 1992. The title of the essay is “Living Comfortably with
Taboos” by Gabi Nitzan-Ginsberg. I feel compelled to discuss this
article at length for two reasons; (a) it happens to be very truthful
with regard to what the philosophy of Zionism has done with regard to
how Israel functions under its engine, and (b) people now throw the word
“fascism” around rather freely, since the election of the war criminal,
Ariel Sharon as the new Prime Minister.
Gabi Nitzan-Ginsburg was born in Israel in 1964 of Argentinian parents.
His grandparents had moved to South America, after the Nazi holocaust
against the Jews of Europe, being one of the few survivors of their
extended family. He describes his family as very Zionist, his father
having worked for the Jewish Federation. Mr. Ginsburg was drafted into
the IDF in 1982 during the Lebanon War. In 1989 he founded an
organization called Red Light whose purpose was to stop police brutality
against Palestinian workers in Israel.
” The volunteer hotline answered calls every night, from young
Palestinians who were beaten, tortured or abused. Red Light went with
them to police stations (to complain against policement) and to
hospitals, to give legal advice. Red Light’s sudden exposure of so much
brutality created a public lobby against police violence. For the first
time, the police found themselves prosecuted in court for beating up
Palestinians.” (Walking The Red Line, p.38)
The heart of his essay is a sentence which Gabi writes in the memory of
his relatives lost in the Nazi genocide, and with the hope that his
children will not have a reason to “write such a thing”. The statement
is:
“There is a similarity between Nazi Germany and Israel”.
The essay, “Living Comfortably with Taboos” discusses the tabla blanca
used by the State of Israel, and indeed by Jewish organizations raising
funds for the Zionist cause; as a pretext for the justification of the
suppression of the Palestinians;
” We, the Jewish nation living in Israel, have a taboo under whose
protection we are able to ignore widely accepted moral codes….The
Shoah (Holocaust).”
He states that this taboo prevents (or has up to now prevented) Jews
>from an inward criticism of the obvious loss of a moral anchor. The
social axiom in operation is that “the Germans…were loathsome
monsters, and the Jews were –and still are, by nature–innocent…and
harmless sheep..the ultimate, eternal Victim.”
He does not bother delving into this notion as the raison d’etre for
every Holocaust Museum built in the world, especially Yad Vashem, The
Holocaust Museum on the Mall in Washington D.C., or the “Museum of
Living Jewish History” in lower Manhattan. For a complete discussion of
this phenomenon, I would recommend the reader refer to two well written
books:
(1) The Holocaust in American Life by Peter Novick, publ. Houghton
Miflin and co. 1999
(2) The Holocaust Industry-Reflections on the Exploitation of Jewish
Suffering by Norman Finkelstein, publ. Verso 2000
Admittedly, Ginsburg wrote the seminal sentence above for shock value,
since;
“Even when the Ultimate Victims violently conquer, blindly exile, kill
women and children, loot, burn, oppress, and destroy, they still remain
The Victim…they have suffered so much for so long that they have
unlimited credit. The world owes us infinite reparations…”
In fact, Ginsburg does not really believe Israelis are Nazis, he
believes that there are lines of similarity among all oppressive nations
of the world. He holds the Nazis up as the standard bearer in this
regard; but lists among the oppressors, the French in Algeria, the
Afrikaaners, the whites in native America, the British in India, the
Russians in Afghanistan, and even the ancient Greeks and Romans.
This writer quite often hears, upon being critical of the state of
Israel, the retort, “but look what you Americans did to the Indians, you
have no right to criticize us.” My reply to that is that yes, what was
done to the Native Americans was one of the great horrors in history,
but that does not justify any silence because another injustice is being
committed in full view in this century. More so, that this injustice is
being committed in my name, as someone who self identifies as a Jew.
For Israel does not call itself “The Zionist State”. Israel calls
itself “The Jewish State”, and by virtue of its laws, as previously
discussed, it is.
“The lines of similarity between us and those listed oppressors are
worrying. More so when it comes to Nazi Germany after we have seen there
is no absolute human red line, no finite moral border, no preset boiling
point, no proven critical mass.” , writes Ginsburg.
He lists the ingredients of similarity as follows:
(1) Racism
(2) Population unrest
(3) Territorial expansionism (known in Nazi Germany as “lebensraum”,
literally “breathing room”)
(4) The presence of a weak alienated group
(5) Megalomania
(6) Dehumanization of the victim (although written a decade before the
murder of Muhammad al-Durrah, the picture of whose death in the arms of
his father made front page world headlines, it should be noted that the
IDF tried to spin the occurance as having been the victim’s own fault!
One has also read currently the obscene notion that Palestinian parents
deliberately place their pre-teens on the “front lines” so as to
“martyr” them.)
(7) A majority of an indifferent population (only 59% of all eligible
voters in Israel recently voted in the election for PM between the war
criminal, Ariel Sharon and Ehud Barak. Ariel Sharons, “overwhelming
landslide” as spun in the corporate media around the world was actually
the receipt of 62.8% of that 59% who bothered to vote. Doing the math,
one notes that only 37% of all eligible voters in Israel voted for
Sharon.)
(8) A stirring of paranoia parallel to demonization of the victim.
(Recent reports: Israel plans to “take back” the West Bank. The unasked
question of course is when had it been “given up”?)
(9) A tolerant attitude towards racist/nationalistic violence.
(10) A fictitious judicial system with regard to the captive population.
(11) Suppression of free speech.
The problem is not that “Israel has lost its way”, as some writers have
been seen to bemoan, but that under the philosophy of political Zionism,
which now has lethally taken on religious overtones (which had been done
through symbolism since the beginning; with the adoption of the Zionist
flag of the Zionist Organization, which is now the Israeli flag,
deliberately resembling in color and design the traditional prayer
shawl, with the religious symbol of the Mogen David in its center.) with
so-called, “religious Zionists” such as the fanatics seen in illegal
settlements exemplified by Kiryat Arba. At the turn of the century,
Theodor Herzl wrote, “we shall spirit the penniless population across
the border”. This was in his diaries which were not to be published
until twenty years after his death. Unfortunately he did not expect to
die, prematurely, at the age of forty, and so his private racist
notions, which he denied to the world, were made manifest in the
Twenties. But a spokesman for the Gush Emunim (Block of the Faithful)
who inhabit Kiryat Arba settlement just outside Hebron is not so
reticent. Meir Indor has stated:
” The Arabs must know that there is a master here, the Jewish people.
It rules over Eretz Israel. The Arabs are temporary dwellers who happen
to live in the country. There are commandments in the Bible concerning
such temporary dwellers and we should act accordingly.” (al-Hamishmar 8
Feb.1980, cited on p. 870 Vol.II, Encylopedia of the Palestine Problem,
Issa Nakhleh)
One can easily point to specific incidents with regard to the above
ingredients delineated by Ginsburg, and some things do occur to a higher
degree than others. However, what is remarkable is that all of what has
come to pass, was predicted, by Jews fighting against the intrusion of
Political Zionism into the Jewish world, as early as 1916; and most
famously by Lord Edwin Montagu, Viceroy to India and the only Jewish
member of the British cabinet at that time. The records of the British
Cabinet, from 1915-1920; the period encompassing the Balfour Declaration
and the beginnings of the Paris Peace Talks in which that document was
included as part of the British Mandate for Palestine under the League
of Nations, were made public in 1970.
Montagu had circulated a memorandum dated 23 August 1917 to other
members of the cabinet with regard to the impending release of the
document which has come to be known as The Balfour Declaration. He
titled this inter alia memorandum, remarkably, “The Anti-Semitism of the
Present Government”, and it was marked “Secret”. [ The Zionist
Connection, by Alfred M. Lilienthal, publ. Dodd-Mead 1978 p. 737 ff.].
In his letter, Montagu accused the cabinet members (and thus His
Majesty’s Government) of using political goals to achieve victory, as
well as divest Britain of its Jews all in one swoop.
“This nation will presumably be formed of Jewish Russians, Jewish
Englishmen, Jewish Roumanians, Jewish Bulgarians, and Jewish citizens of
all nations – survivors of relations of those who have fought or laid
down their lives for different countries which I have mentioned, at a
time when the three years that they lived through [ fighting for their
respective countries in “The Great War”, WWI].
Zionism has always seemed to me to be a mischievous political
creed….I have always understood that those who indulged in this creed
were largely animated by the restrictions upon and refusal of liberty to
Jews in Russia. But at the very time when these Jews have been
acknowledged as Jewish Russians and given all liberties [ under the new
Soviet government – well they were given about the same liberties as
everyone else in the Soviet Union – Z ], it seems to be inconceivable
that Zionism should be officially recognized by the British Government,
and that Mr. Balfour should be authorized to say that Palestine was to
be reconstituted as the “national home of the Jewish people.” I do not
know what this involves, but assume that it means that Mohammedans and
Christians are to make waqy for the Jews, and that Jews should be put in
all positions of preference and should be peculiarly associated with
Palestine in the same way that England is with the English or France
with the French, that Turks and other Mohammedans in Palestine will be
regarded as foreigners….”
From [email protected] Fri Mar 9 16:09:52 EST 2001
Article: 258864 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!europa.netcrusader.net!4.1.16.34!
cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.atl!news1.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
From: Roger Alexander <[email protected]>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: Re: Monsters
References: <3A9EDD9C.67AD[email protected]> <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 34
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 14:48:55 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.206.134
X-Trace: news1.atl 983566018 208.63.206.134 (Fri, 02 Mar 2001 15:46:58 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 15:46:58 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:174743 soc.culture.israel:327828 soc.culture.usa:603347
soc.culture.canada:258864 soc.culture.british:552611
