William Black wrote:
> Martin Goldstein <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> > > I doesn’t matter whether Zundel spouts hate or what. What matters is
> > > freedom of speech. Only Zionists are engaged in trying to suppress
> > > free speech. At the same time, Jewish owned media are giving the
> > > American people a false notion of what is going on in Israel to the
> > > benefit of the Zionists.
>
> Don’t you just love idiots who say free speech is inviolate.
>
> Try calling fire in a crowded night-club and see just how free all speech
> is…
>
> Of course speech designed to cause pain and suffering should be banned.
>
> —
> William Black
>
Obviously we disagree. There are in any event two sorts of restraint on
speech.
One is a prior restraint, a ban which you propose. This is nearly always
a terrible thing to start in a free society. It is justifiable in time of
war where
one wants to publish the itinerary of a troop transport, and the lives of the
troops would
be endangered. There are many analogous situations, but even here the line
gets quickly
blurred. The DoD has solved the problem in its modern wars by strictly
controlling
what the journalists see and where they go.
One can, of course, restrain speech by threat of criminal prosecution as in
the fire
in the crowded theater case. And there is the threat oif defamation law
suits
where the remarks are arguably defamatory.
Beyond these limits the notion of restraining speech which some yo-yo
thinks is “designed to cause pain and suffering” is rather difficult, and
would among other things require the rewriting of the First Amendment
and all the opinions of the US Supreme Court on the subject.
RLA
From [email protected] Fri Mar 9 16:10:09 EST 2001
Article: 259329 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp1.njy.teleglobe.net!teleglobe.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!
newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news1.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
From: Roger Alexander <[email protected]>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.palestine,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: Re: THE ELECTRONIC INTIFADA
References: <[email protected]> <3AA77788.[email protected]> <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 22
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 20:29:54 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.20.149.87
X-Trace: news1.atl 984104891 66.20.149.87 (Thu, 08 Mar 2001 21:28:11 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 21:28:11 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:175469 soc.culture.palestine:113441 soc.culture.usa:606252
soc.culture.canada:259329 soc.culture.british:554724
“Kenneth McVay, OBC” wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> Zahra <[email protected]> wrote:
> >Everything that is of no convenience to zionist is qualified as antisemitic!!!
> >The truth is taha YOU ARE THIEVES, and some day you’ll have to give us back
> >what is ours.Truth is not antisemitic, it’s only truth.
>
> …which means, of course, that, in the fevered imagination of Mr.
> Alexander, roughly half of America’s Jews are thieves.
>
> Mr. Alexander should tell us how many of the world’s Jews _he_ thinks
> are Zionists… for some reason, he’s avoided the question like the
> plague.
And here I thought you had no truck with Israel and Zionism. YOu always said
you had the Holocaust as your task, and weren’t involved with the other.
Wassamatta wit du have you run out of other things to do?
RLA
From [email protected] Fri Mar 9 16:10:09 EST 2001
Article: 259330 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp1.njy.teleglobe.net!teleglobe.net!surfnet.nl!howland.erols.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!
rcn!newsfeed.atl!news1.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
From: Roger Alexander <[email protected]>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: Those bullets seek them everywhere By Amira Hass
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 174
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 20:40:29 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.20.149.87
X-Trace: news1.atl 984105526 66.20.149.87 (Thu, 08 Mar 2001 21:38:46 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 21:38:46 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:175471 soc.culture.israel:328754 soc.culture.usa:606257
soc.culture.canada:259330 soc.culture.british:554727
Ha’aretz Wed March 7, 2001
Those bullets seek them everywhere
Firing on Palestinian civilians is
reported as ‘deterrent
shooting in the air’
By Amira Hass
Ha’aretz Correspondent
Last Friday around noon, a few dozen
people milled around
destroyed buildings, uprooted trees and
twisted, broken cooking-gas
cylinders at the end of A-Salam
neighborhood in Rafiah. Two days
earlier, the Israel Defense Forces had
destroyed the Palestinian
National Security position there – and
the station for refilling gas
cylinders that supplied all of Rafiah and
Khan Yunis.Under cover of
heavy fire from tanks that rolled into
the Palestinian area, IDF
bulldozers broke down walls and fences,
and en route destroyed a
little orchard and vegetable garden that
had been the pride of the
refugee camp. The shooting and bulldozing
were revenge for a land
mine exploding under the wheels of an IDF
convoy on the border a
few days earlier.
Children played between the legs of
adults in the sandy, rocky lot
between their homes and the border, a few
meters away. This is their
playground.
They are very experienced kids – they
warn visitors not to get too
close to the remains of the gas works,
because the IDF position
across the border is visible. A soldier
at the IDF post will shoot, they
say, “then he’ll say he thought your
video camera looked like a rifle.”
A few minutes later three bullets whistle
past. They come from the
southeast, from the IDF tower that can’t
be seen useless you risk the
danger of approaching the fence. There
are many of these
observation towers, towering over the
area, scattered along the entire
border. They are fitted with cameras,
always taking video pictures of
what’s going on below in enemy land.
Around 2:00 P.M., the IDF spokesman
confirmed to Ha’aretz that
indeed shots were fired. “They were in
the air,” he said. The soldier in
the spokesman’s office in the South said
it was “deterrence” so
people wouldn’t get too close to the
border fence plant a mine
undercover of children playing. The
“deterrence” from afar whistled
past the people idling in the rubble near
the fence.
In Khan Yunis and Rafiah such firing is
routine. They shoot when
there’s no attack in Israel, and when
there is a suicide bombing, when
a bomb goes off near a border road, and
when a bomb doesn’t go
off.
When armored cars or jeeps move from one
position to another they
fire on civilians on the way. From the
observation towers they fire at
people walking on their own street or
approaching their own fields.
Often, the “deterrent shots in the air”
hit someone on the ground.
In A-Salam, on February 18, the IDF guns
wounded four children.
Kids shouted at a passing armored car on
the border road – they
probably cursed the soldiers. The
soldiers opened fire. Mahdi Omer,
15, was shot in the knee, Ahmed Abu Taha,
14, was hit in the back.
Asama Kashta, 18, was hit by fragments in
her shoulder, Muhamed
Matar, 14, was hit by fragments in the
back. A field investigator from
the Palestinian Center for Human Rights
said there had been no stone
throwing before the shooting – even if
one may still inquire why
throwing rocks at an armored car
justified gun shots.
On February 19, Hakima Abu-Hubeiza, 70,
was shot in the leg. He
lives in the village of Al-Morrka, which
was really lucky to have
Netzarim built next door. There were no
violent incidents in the area
at the time.
This is only a partial list. Often, an
IDF bullet travels a long distance
from the border, ending up precisely
between the buildings. That’s
how Muhamed El Rom, 15, was seriously
wounded on February 23
in Kadura refugee camp. That’s how
nine-year-old Obei Darag was
killed inside his El Bireh home on March
2.
It is how, on March 4, 42-year-old Aida
Shatiye was killed in the
center of El Bireh. That’s how Talal Abu
Arida, 17, was killed in
Rafiah. He was standing in the doorway of
his family’s car repair
shop, 1,500 meters away from a tall IDF
observation tower on the
border. He was hit in the head. He died
on the way to the hospital.
When Palestinians shoot in the air, it is
not reported in Israel as
shooting in the air, and certainly not as
“deterrence.” It’s added to a
long list of “shooting incidents in which
there were no casualties
among our forces.”
Nobody in the IDF reports on the IDF’s
routine daily firing on
Palestinians, unless the Palestinians
report someone was killed, or a
Palestinian decides to respond to the
Israeli “firing in the air” with his
own shooting. These will be reported (in
Israel) as “exchanges of
fire.”
If shots are fired from a Palestinian
position toward Israeli civilians,
the army spokesman immediately reports
“Palestinians opened fire on
Israeli civilians, there are no
casualties, and the IDF responded by
firing the sources of the shooting.”
For the next two or three hours, the news
opens with a report of the
shooting. It reinforces nice comfortable
theories about the monstrous
enemy that fires at our civilians
From [email protected] Fri Mar 9 16:10:10 EST 2001
Article: 259339 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!falcon.america.net!newsfeed.atl!news2.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
From: Roger Alexander <[email protected]>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada
Subject: Egyptian military reportedly bracing for Israeli invasion of Palestinian
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 32
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 21:38:32 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.20.149.87
X-Trace: news2.atl 984109010 66.20.149.87 (Thu, 08 Mar 2001 22:36:50 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 22:36:50 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:175485 soc.culture.usa:606279 soc.culture.canada:259339
I found this on SCLebanon.
RLA
Egyptian military reportedly bracing for Israeli invasion of Palestinian
areas
The World Tribune
Arab diplomatic sources report that the Egyptian military
is bracing for the prospect of an Israeli invasion of the
Palestinian Authority areas. The London-based Al Zaman
asserted that Egypt’s military has begun mobilizing
reserves for training in what was termed as preparations
for a war against Israel.
This week, an Israeli military spokesman denied Arab
reports that Israeli Chief of Staff Lt. Gen. Shaul Mofaz
accused Egypt of supplying weapons to the PA. Earlier,
Israeli sources said the Egyptian military is allowing
massive amounts of weapons and ammunition to be smuggled
>from Sinai to the Gaza Strip.
Egypt is hosting an emergency meeting of the Arab League
on March 12 in Cairo. The meeting, headed by Egyptian
Foreign Minister Amr Mussa, is meant to discuss the
latest developments in the Israeli-Palestinian mini-war
as well as calls to renew a boycott against Israel. The
meeting would include the foreign ministers or
representatives from the Arab League, Bahrain, Egypt,
Jordan, Lebanon, Morocco, the Palestinian Authority,
Saudi Arabia, Syria and Tunisia.
From [email protected] Fri Mar 9 16:10:10 EST 2001
Article: 259340 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!howland.erols.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed.atl!news1.atl.POSTED!
not-for-mail
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
From: Roger Alexander <[email protected]>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.palestine,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,
soc.culture.british
Subject: Re: AMJ holds Press Conference to Announce Estee Lauder Boycott
References: <[email protected]> <3AA775F[email protected]> <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Lines: 112
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 21:54:39 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.20.149.87
X-Trace: news1.atl 984109977 66.20.149.87 (Thu, 08 Mar 2001 22:52:57 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 22:52:57 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:175493 soc.culture.israel:328780 soc.culture.palestine:113449
soc.culture.usa:606288 soc.culture.canada:259340 soc.culture.british:554741
NO David, not boycotting Jews. Boycotting Israeli supporters.
Did you know that Ronald Lauder is the head of the Conference of Presidents
of Mjor Jewish Organizations? I’ll bet you do. Did you know that he went to
Israel
a couple of months ago and gave a racist speech about the Palestinians?
I’ll bet you did. Now why didn’t you make the connection between his racism
and the boycott? Is it because the parallel between israel and Nazi GErmany
is a better one? Naaaahh, you would never admit that, would you?
RLA
David Lee Makowsky wrote:
> Hmmm. Boycotting Jews. Why does early Nazi Germany come to mind?
>
> In article <[email protected]>,
> Roger Alexander <[email protected]> wrote:
> # The post points out that Ronald Lauder is a right wing Zionist,
> # of the Kahanist stripe, and that he is also the owner of Estee Lauder
> # cosmetics. Any person who supports Israel is not a good citizen of this
> # country, and his business should be boycotted.
> # RLA
> #
> # Martin Goldstein wrote:
> #
> # > READER BEWARE !
> # > THE FOLLOWING POST IS PURE ANTI-SEMITIC PROPOGANDA !
> # >
> # > Roger Alexander wrote:
> # >
> # > > Arabs call for boycott of Estee Lauder
> # > >
> # > > In the Name of God, the Most Compassionate, the Most Merciful
> # > > American Muslims for Jerusalem
> # > > 208 G Street, NE
> # > > Suite 100
> # > > Washington, DC 20002
> # > > Phone: (202) 548-4200
> # > > Fax: (202) 548-4201
> # > > E-mail: [email protected]
> # > > WWW: http://www.amjerusalem.org
> # > >
> # > > AMJ holds Press Conference to Announce Estee Lauder Boycott
> # > > On Wednesday, February 28, American Muslims for Jerusalem (AMJ) lead a
> # > > coalition of advocacy organizations in a press conference calling for a
> # > > worldwide boycott of cosmetics giant Estée Lauder. That announcement was
> # > > prompted by Estée Lauder International Chairman Ronald Lauder’s
> # > > activities in support of Israeli right-wing extremists.
> # > >
> # > > Estee Lauders products include: Estee Lauder line of perfume and
> # > > make-up, Aramis, Clinique, Aveda, DKNY and Tommy Hilfegere toiletries
> # > > products. Estee Lauder also owns several lines of hair and skin care
> # > > products and shops such as M.A.C. and Origins.
> # > >
> # > > Ronald Lauder is the Chairman of the Conference of Presidents of Major
> # > > American Jewish Organizations and President of the Jewish National Fund
> # > > (JNF). JNF is a quasi-government agency whose main function is to
> # > > legitimize Israeli’s theft of Palestinian land.
> # > >
> # > > In January, Lauder was the key speaker from the US at a rally in
> # > > Jerusalem, organized by right wing Israeli politician Natan Sharansky.
> # > > The rally was organized to oppose the mere consideration of Jerusalem as
> # > > a negotiation item. Lauder addressed 300,000 Israeli extremists at the
> # > > gates of Haram Al-Sharif (the Noble Sanctuary, one of Islam’s three
> # > > holiest sites). Some of the protesters tried to break into the holy
> # > > site.
> # > >
> # > > Khalid Turaani, AMJ’s Executive Director said “this boycott of Estee
> # > > Lauder will send a clear message that people of conscience refuse to do
> # > > business with corporations supporting Israeli apartheid policies which
> # > > violate internationally-recognized human rights”.
> # > >
> # > > In 1993, Lauder co-founded a think tank called the Shalem Center with
> # > > Yoram Hazony, a former Netanyahu aid. The Israeli Education Ministry has
> # > > said the center is “a research institute whose leanings are extreme
> # > > right-wing and even fascistic.” Hebrew University professor Yisrael
> # > > Bartal describes Hazony as a right-wing extremist. A columnist for the
> # > > Israeli newspaper Ha’aretz (9/14/2000) wrote that Hazony is a
> # > > sympathizer of the slain radical Jewish leader Meir Kahane, who called
> # > > for the expulsion of all Arabs from Israel. The goal of Hazony, wrote
> # > > the columnist, is to find new ways of “breathing life into Kahane’s
> # > > racist, totalitarian, intolerant ideology.”
> # > >
> # > > Ronald Lauder’s Jerusalem-rally speech came at a time when the Israeli
> # > > government was waging a campaign of siege and starvation against the
> # > > entire Palestinian population. While Mr. Lauder supports some legitimate
> # > > charitable causes in the US, he shows his true colors when abroad by
> # > > supporting fanatic causes that seek to uproot an entire population from
> # > > its native land. Lauder is also opposed to permitting Palestinian
> # > > refugees to return to their homes. “For Israel to allow these people to
> # > > return would be national suicide,” he said in a statement last
> # > > September. In contrast, the UN General Assembly has demanded that Israel
> # > > allow the Palestinian refugees to return since 1948. “Lauder’s
> # > > opposition to the return of Palestinian refugees in order to maintain
> # > > the pure-Jewish identity of Israel is nothing short of apartheid at its
> # > > worst” said Turaani.
> # > >
> # > > American Muslims for Jerusalem
> # > > 208 G Street NE
> # > > Suite 100
> # > > Washington, DC 20002
> # > > Phone: (202) 548-4200
> # > > Fax: (202) 548-4201
> # > > E-mail: [email protected]
> # > > WWW: http://www.amjerusalem.org IMRA
> #
>
> —
> There are three types of people in the world. Those that are good at
> math and those that are not.
>
From [email protected] Fri Mar 9 16:10:10 EST 2001
Article: 259341 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!howland.erols.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed.atl!news1.atl.POSTED
!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
From: Roger Alexander <[email protected]>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: Re: Ha’aretz: Barak was biggest settlement builder since ’92
References: <[email protected]> <3AA77B4[email protected]> <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 76
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 21:56:13 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.20.149.87
X-Trace: news1.atl 984110071 66.20.149.87 (Thu, 08 Mar 2001 22:54:31 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 22:54:31 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:175494 soc.culture.israel:328781 soc.culture.usa:606289
soc.culture.canada:259341 soc.culture.british:554742
I notice that you do not look at the article itself to see what it said
or if it could be called antisemitic. Of course, it couldn’t, only
in Martin Goldstein’s fervid mind or yours.
RLA
David Lee Makowsky wrote:
> The following is as dumb as saying that by definition the Washington
> Post cannot print an anti-American article.
>
> In article <[email protected]>,
> Roger Alexander <[email protected]> wrote:
> # Here I have to laugh. Ha’aretz is one of the biggest papers in Israel
> # and is, if I am any judge, Zionist. How an article from Ha’aretz
> # qualifies as antisemitic, GOK.
> # RLA
> #
> # Martin Goldstein wrote:
> #
> # > READER BEWARE !
> # > THIS IS AN EXAMPLE OF ANTI-ISRAELI PROPOGANDA !
> # >
> # > Roger Alexander wrote:
> # >
> # > > Ha’aretz: Barak was biggest settlement builder since ’92
> # > >
> # > > By Nadav Shragai Ha’aretz Correspondent Ha’aretz 27 February 2001
> # > >
> # > > The government began construction of 1,943 housing units in the
> # > > territories
> # > > last year – the largest number in any year since 1992, according to data
> # > >
> # > > released yesterday by MK Mussi Raz (Meretz).
> # > >
> # > > The figures are based on official data from the Housing Ministry.
> # > >
> # > > Nor has the building stopped since the outbreak of the Al Aqsa Intifada:
> # > > In
> # > > the last quarter of 2000, work was begun on 954 housing units, up from
> # > > 368
> # > > in the final quarter of 1999, Raz said.
> # > >
> # > > And since such public construction accounts for only about 25 percent of
> # > > all
> # > > building in Israel, the actual number of units built in the territories
> # > > last
> # > > year was probably around four times higher.
> # > >
> # > > The figures also showed that only 632 units have so far been sold in the
> # > > new
> # > > Har Homa neighborhood of East Jerusalem, out of some 2,000 that were put
> # > > up
> # > > for sale.
> # > >
> # > > Additionally, the Housing Ministry only recently issued a tender for
> # > > development work in the Tel Zion neighborhood of Kochav Ya’akov, south
> # > > of
> # > > Ramallah. The plan is to build 696 apartments there for Haredi families
> # > > –
> # > > which would double the settlement’s current population of about 600
> # > > families.
> # > >
> # > > ——————————————–
> # > >
> # > > ~~ Reconciliation Conference LIST ~~
> # > > since 1994 Abraham Weizfeld organizer
> # > > [email protected]
> # > > —————————————————
> #
>
> —
> There are three types of people in the world. Those that are good at
> math and those that are not.
>
From [email protected] Fri Mar 9 16:10:11 EST 2001
Article: 259344 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp1.njy.teleglobe.net!teleglobe.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!
newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news3.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
From: Roger Alexander <[email protected]>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: Nigel Parry : AP’S BIAS: A LETTER TO INTERNATIONAL EDITOR SALLY JACOBSEN
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 318
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 22:30:26 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.20.149.87
X-Trace: news3.atl 984112125 66.20.149.87 (Thu, 08 Mar 2001 23:28:45 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 23:28:45 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:175500 soc.culture.israel:328787 soc.culture.usa:606300
soc.culture.canada:259344 soc.culture.british:554744
Subject: Nigel Parry: AP’s bias: a letter to international editor Sally
Jacobsen
____________________________________________________________________________
__ __________ _ _______ ______
/ |/ / __/ _ | / |/ / __/ | /| / / __/
/ /|_/ /\ \/ __ |/ / _/ | |/ |/ /\ \
/_/ /_/___/_/ |_/_/|_/___/ |__/|__/___/
Support MSANEWS, a project of learning and enlightenment
“A Mind is a Terrible Thing to Waste”
[ see footer for contact and other pertinent information ]
____________________________________________________________________________
Source: Direct Submission
Organization: NigelParry.com
Email: <[email protected]>
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 13:41:16 -0600
Title: [nigelparry-news] AP’s bias: a letter to international
editor Sally Jacobsen
TEXT:
AP’S BIAS: A LETTER TO INTERNATIONAL EDITOR SALLY JACOBSEN
Sally Jacobsen
International Editor
The Associated Press
March 7th, 2001
Dear Ms. Jacobsen,
I am writing to express my concern at the March 6th AP article,
“Palestinian Bombs Kindle Debate”, by Dan Perry.
Reading about “exasperated Israel” in the first paragraph, it was
clear that this was not going to be a balanced article.
The current level of violence was not imposed on an Israel that has
“left no stone unturned in the search for peace” as previous Israeli
PM Barak said. Rather, it has been patently escalated by an Israel
that would appear to think that tank-mounted heavy machine guns and
attack helicopter shells are an acceptable form of crowd control.
The figures speak for themselves. On February 23rd, CNN reported
that, “[Today’s] shootings raised the toll of the dead in five months
of clashes between Palestinians and Israelis to 441 — 367
Palestinians, according to the Palestine Red Crescent Society, and 61
Israeli Jews and 13 Israeli Arabs, according to Israeli officials.”
Numerous sources have termed Israeli tactics at these demonstrations
to have been excessive, including the US State Department and Amnesty
International.
Having lived in the Palestinian West Bank from 1994-98, I regularly
was treated to the spectacle of Israeli soldiers shooting
stone-throwers out of stone throwing range.
Indeed, with 100 Palestinian children killed in the present clashes,
and many of the total number killed outside even the context of
clashes, it would appear that the presentation of Israel as a country
“responding” to Palestinian violence is at best inaccurate, at worst
in blatant contradiction with the AP Managing Editor’s Code of Ethics
(1995) which states that newspapers “should guard against… bias or
distortion through emphasis… [and] …omission.”
Perry’s article actually states that the deaths took place during
“fighting”. In fact, the daily clashes (as opposed to the nightly
activities of the very different Palestinian armed groups which could
perhaps be termed thus) have almost exclusively been the site of the
overwhelming majority of killings, apart from, as I mentioned above,
the occasions where bystanders far from any conflict have been
targeted.
The article notes, quite correctly, that, “The 1990s interim accords
left the West Bank and Gaza a jumble of fully autonomous, jointly
controlled, and Israeli-occupied areas.”
However, Perry continues on to say “Most Palestinians are under some
autonomy at least…”, and refers to the Israeli military occupation
as a thing of the past: “…and leave Israel where it was before: in
a costly and internally divisive military occupation over 3 million
Palestinians.”
Who is really “exasperated” here?
Post-Oslo, many human rights indicators took a nose-dive, which is
the clear and obvious reason that we are seeing a Second Intifada,
something that still eludes much of the media, as does mention of the
Israeli military occupation. Speaking as one who lived in Ramallah
both pre- and post-redeployment, the reality was simply that the
occupation took a couple of steps backwards to around the towns.
Since Oslo, every time Israel had an opportunity to break with its
abusive patterns in the past and choose to work with the Palestinians
to build a new reality, it chose instead to fall back on the old
models of repression and collective punishment.
After Oslo, Israel doubled the number of settlers from 109,000 in
1993 to nearly 200,000 in 1999.
After Oslo, until March 1998, 629 Palestinian homes were demolished
in the West Bank including East Jerusalem.
Surely AP is aware that Oslo’s “Area A” accounts for only 5 percent
of the West Bank land, which conveniently houses 95 percent of the
Palestinian population? Patently acting to hand over its crowd
control problems, Israel subsequently began regularly sealing off
these areas if an individual Palestinian attacked Israelis in
Israeli-controlled areas.
On the Ramallah-Birzeit road, this happened first on 12 February
1996, just over a month after redeployment, and continued to happen
regularly throughout 1996. Birzeit University was forced to
reschedule one-and-a-half months of lost time from its academic
calendar in 1996 alone. And that was just year one.
This small selection of statistics from the much wider range of
available statistics do not paint a picture of a reasonable
government doing all it can, that can fairly be described as
“exasperated”.
Since the start of the current Intifada, Palestinians in these Area A
enclaves have been living under a state of siege unprecedented in
pre- or post-Oslo Palestinian experience, with almost all movement
between Palestinian towns and villages prohibited.
Today, it was widely reported that this siege was tightened, most
notably with over 70,000 residents from the area around Birzeit
University, where I worked during 1994-1998, cut off from the
university, with a new semester scheduled to begin in 10 days. Water
pipes and telephone lines have been cut to these areas.
It’s doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out why any sense of
goodwill from the ‘Peace Process’ evaporated quickly, as the
occupation seeming rolled on uninterrupted by a obsequious media that
by and large failed to report on these measures until as late as
Autumn 1996, when the September Clashes caught their attention.
As a result, although Palestinians had greeted the redeployments with
flags, the reality on the ground meant they were always going to be
replaced by stones. Meanwhile, the land confiscation and settlement
expansion carried on, essentially ‘covered’ by a media that has
always preferred pictures of stone-throwing to any meaningful
reporting on the hardships faced by Palestinian civil society.
When AP or other media reports on the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict as
if the ‘poor Israelis’ are trying as best they can to find peace in
the face of violence committed by amorphous Palestinian masses, this
mocks reality on the ground.
To not report the conflict in its correct context of a relentless,
ongoing military occupation is no different than if your reports on
South Africa pre-1992 had failed to prominently acknowledge the
context of the Apartheid system.
Again, AP’s code of ethics states that, “The newspaper should serve
as a constructive critic of all segments of society… It should
vigorously expose wrongdoing, duplicity or misuse of power, public or
private…”
This article failed to achieve that goal, most shamefully exposed by
the fact that not a single Palestinian source was quoted, compared
with four named Israeli sources, one named American source, and a
whole range of unnamed Israeli “military officials and security
experts”.
AP — as a wire service whose copy is used by international editors
in newspapers around the world, most of whom will not have set foot
in the region — has a special responsibility to ensure that its copy
reflects the realities on the ground. This article most clearly did
not.
Sincerely,
Nigel Parry
http://nigelparry.com
[address deleted]
Dan Perry, Associated Press
AP Online
DATE: March 6, 2001; Tuesday 4:18 AM, Eastern Time
HEADLINE: Palestinian Bombs Kindle Debate
BYLINE: DAN PERRY
DATELINE: JERUSALEM
BODY: With violence raging and a more hawkish government coming in, an
exasperated Israel is debating whether anything new can be done to quash
five months of fighting with the Palestinians that has left hundreds
dead.
Options under discussion range from retaking autonomous Palestinian
zones,
to erecting a physical barrier between the Palestinians and Israel, to
targeting higher levels of Palestinian leadership.
Incoming Prime Minister Ariel Sharon has warned he won’t hold peace
talks
until violence has stopped. Sharon charged Sunday that Arafat is “taking
no steps” to prevent attacks such as that day’s suicide bombing that
killed four, including the attacker, in the coastal town of Netanya. “We
will work to bring security back to the citizens of Israel,” he pledged.
The question on Israelis’ minds is: How?
In the past year’s failed peace effort, Arafat has refused what Israelis
generally perceive as their best offer: a Palestinian state in most of
the
West Bank and Gaza, dismantling of many settlements, and a share of
Jerusalem.
The 1990s interim accords left the West Bank and Gaza a jumble of fully
autonomous, jointly controlled, and Israeli-occupied areas.
Most Palestinians are under some autonomy at least, and about a quarter
of
the area the quasi-sovereign “Areas A” are theoretically out of Israel’s
reach. Israel says militants plan and prepare attacks there with
impunity.
Israel’s military chief, Lt. Gen. Shaul Mofaz, confirmed last week that
one of the ideas under consideration was an invasion of “Areas A” which
include all of the West Bank’s cities and most of the Gaza Strip.
“The possibility of taking part of the A area is a possible direction,”
he
said. But he added, “I’m not sure that we will be happy to do it,
especially in the built-up area.”
Indeed, such a move would likely exact a terrible toll on both sides, as
Israel could have to uproot armed militias and Palestinian police in
urban
combat.
It would also obliterate what was built in years of peacemaking and
leave
Israel where it was before: in a costly and internally divisive military
occupation over 3 million Palestinians.
Outgoing Foreign Minister Shlomo Ben-Ami warned against the idea, saying
it could “lead to total collapse of the Palestinian Authority.”
Some are warning that process has already begun. The U.S. ambassador to
Israel, Martin Indyk, said last week that “semi-anarchy and gang rule”
are
engulfing the West Bank and Gaza Strip.
The uprising erupted in September as street riots. But Palestinian
police
soon joined in, and in December armed units connected to the Palestinian
Authority took the lead in carrying out shooting attacks on Israeli
settlers, Israel charges. Now, Islamic militants are waging a campaign
of
bombings inside Israel.
Israel’s reaction has included sealing off Palestinian areas, blockading
individual cities, withholding tax money, and occasional targeted
killings
of Palestinian figures believed to be involved in the violence.
Israel has been criticized internationally for excessive force in the
fighting, which has left more than 420 people dead, most of them
Palestinians. But to many Israelis it was insufficient; Barak was
crushed
in last month’s election.
Sharon has not detailed his plans, but interviews with military
officials
and security experts suggest several other options under consideration:
Pinpoint strikes into areas A: “It’s certainly possible to hit the
terrorist infrastructure, microscopically or on a large scale,” said
Ehud
Yatom, former official of the Shin Bet security service. “Area A is not
sacred.”
More strikes against Palestinian militants: Israel has gone after local
militia leaders, but not higher-ranking Palestinian figures. But that
would draw harsh criticism and, possibly, counterattacks.
“Separation”: Israel would draw a border and seal off the resultant
hundreds of miles of rugged frontier with minefields, electronic fences,
patrols or other means. It’s a huge job, but “there’s no comparing the
cost of erecting such a barrier with the damage” of endless bombings in
Israel, said Arab affairs expert Dan Schueftan. Critics ask how Israel
will defend remote Jewish settlements left on the Palestinian side.
Some believe the Palestinians will eventually run out of steam.
“The name of the game will be who has more perseverance,” said Brig.
Gen.
Ron Kitrey, Israel’s military spokesman.
LOAD-DATE: March 6, 2001
From [email protected] Fri Mar 9 16:10:11 EST 2001
Article: 259346 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!news.iac.net!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!feed2.news.rcn.net!
rcn!
newsfeed.atl!news3.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
From: Roger Alexander <[email protected]>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.palestine,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada
Subject: Zionism-as-racism furor threatens to engulf UN : Globe & Mail
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 152
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 23:12:41 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.20.149.87
X-Trace: news3.atl 984114667 66.20.149.87 (Fri, 09 Mar 2001 00:11:07 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 00:11:07 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:175503 soc.culture.palestine:113453 soc.culture.usa:606314
soc.culture.canada:259346
http://www.globeandmail.com/gam/International/20010308/UZIONM.html
Zionism-as-racism furor threatens to engulf UN
STEPHANIE NOLEN
Thursday, March 8, 2001
A decade after the United Nations repealed
what was arguably its most troublesome
resolution — the 1975 equation of Zionism with
racism — Arab and Muslim countries are
threatening to put it back on the UN agenda.
A senior UN official said yesterday that the
Zionism-is-racism issue is the most explosive of
several incendiary matters threatening to derail
the UN World Conference Against Racism in
South Africa in August.
“Thus far I have not seen it come into any
official document, but it’s obviously an issue in
the background [and] there are some people
pressing for that kind of language to be used at
the conference,” the official said.
A resolution that “condemned Zionism as a
threat to world peace and security” and “a form
of racism and racial discrimination” was passed
75 votes to 35 by the UN General Assembly in
1975, against a backdrop of conflict about oil
prices and with heavy pressure from the Eastern
Bloc and Third World supporters of the
Palestinians.
The resolution stayed on the books — and was
one of the prime reasons for the erosion of U.S.
support for the UN — until 1991, when it was
repealed by a vote of 111 to 25.
Generally, Zionism is the belief that Jews have
the right to a state of their own in Palestine.
Those who believe it is racist argue that Judaism
is a religion, and that to give Jews, regardless
of
where they are born, an intrinsic right to a
homeland in what is now Israel discriminates
against Palestinian Christians and Muslims
indigenous to the region.
The argument that Zionism is racist has popped
up in UN circles periodically since 1991 —
pushed by Lebanon and Syria, for example,
when they opposed giving consultative status to
Hadassah, the women’s Zionist organization,
last year at UNESCO, the UN cultural agency.
But the fighting that has raged in the West Bank
and Gaza Strip since September (killing at least
360 Palestinians and 65 Israelis) has given it a
new lease on life.
It resurfaced at a recent meeting of Arab
non-governmental organizations preparing for
the conference. It was also discussed at official
preparatory meetings in Tehran. Conference
organizers are hoping it stays in the margins in
South Africa.
“It becomes a question of whether people are
so angry with unfolding events that it would be
put on the table,” the UN official said, adding
that any country or bloc that did raise it would
do so conscious of its “destructive force.”
Jewish groups are already bracing themselves.
“Without a doubt, there will be at this
conference a strong lobby to raise this
resolution yet again,” said Karen Mock,
president of B’nai Brith Canada and a likely
Canadian delegate. “There is a large Arab
lobby at the UN; a number of countries and a
number of votes.”
Certainly, the issue remains sufficiently divisive
— utterly condemned by Jews and many
Western countries, but supported by some
extremist groups and developing countries —
that it could derail the gathering.
“Any equation of Zionism with racism would be
catastrophic,” said David Malone, president of
the International Peace Academy in New York
and a former Canadian ambassador to the UN.
“No single measure adopted by the UN . . . has
done the institution more damage than
Zionism-is-racism.”
He said any introduction of the idea to the
conference would have a similarly harmful
effect, turning a potentially constructive global
push against racism “into an ugly and ideological
slugfest. . . . This deserves to be suffocated
near birth; to be killed early.”
He thinks it is unlikely that many countries
would be willing to formally advance the
resolution, even in the context of frustration
over the recent fighting in the Middle East.
A spokesman for Hedy Fry, Canada’s
Secretary of State for Multiculturalism who will
lead the Canadian delegation to South Africa,
said Canada would condemn any move to
equate Zionism with racism, and that Ms. Fry
believes most participants in the conference
sincerely hope to see the meetings succeed.
The last two world conferences on racism — in
1978 and 1983 — were considered failures,
producing no consensus statement and stalling
on issues such as race-related refugee crises
and compensation for slavery.
The compensation issue threatens to loom large
again at this conference; both Afro-descended
peoples and indigenous peoples around the
world are organizing on the issue of monetary
compensation, which seems certain to be a
major source of North-South tension.
Immigration has dominated discussions at
European preparatory meetings, while the
question of caste is being hotly debated in Asia.
David Matas, a Winnipeg human-rights lawyer
who has attended many global conferences,
said he did not think a Zionism-is-racism
resolution would make it to the conference in
South Africa.
“But a resolution against racism will condemn
every kind of racism [except] anti-Semitism,
because of anti-Israel bias,” he said. “To
acknowledge the existence of anti-Semitism is
to acknowledge the need for Israel. The big
problem in South Africa will be to discuss
anti-Semitism at all.” <end>
From [email protected] Fri Mar 9 16:10:11 EST 2001
Article: 259372 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!news.iac.net!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!
cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.atl!news2.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
From: Roger Alexander <[email protected]>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: Dr. Sumaya Farhat-Naser denied right to travel to US
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 151
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 13:21:13 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.61.184.135
X-Trace: news2.atl 984165572 208.61.184.135 (Fri, 09 Mar 2001 14:19:32 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 14:19:32 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:175548 soc.culture.israel:328855 soc.culture.usa:606509
soc.culture.canada:259372 soc.culture.british:554886
Thank God for a written constitution. In this country the right to
travel
is written into the constitution. Of course, Arab rights in Israel
are contingent on the whim of the Jewish majority in all cases.
Dr. Farhat Naser was to speak at a conference in the US.
And, of course, Israel would be embarrassed by the truth
coming from Arab mouths. So….
RLA
ISRAEL IS A HORRIBLE COUNTRY.
The message consists of two parts. In the first I provide some minimal
biographical details concerning Professor Sumaya Farhat-Naser. The
second
part speaks for itself.
xxxxx xxxxxxx
PART I: Biographical details
Dr. Sumaya Farhat-Naser / Jerusalem Center for Women director; professor
of botany at Birzeit University; honorary doctorate from University of
Munster, 1989; recipient Dr. Bruno-Kreisky prize for human rights, 1995
Die Mount Zion Foundation ist eine kirchliche gemeinn?tzige Stiftung mit
Sitz in Luzern. Ihr Zweck ist die Auszeichnung von Personen, die sich
entweder im juedisch-christlichen Dialog oder im Trialog der drei
Abrahamsreligionen Judentum, Christentum und Islam Verdienste erworben
haben. Der Preis wurde zum ersten Mal im Jahre 1987 verliehen.
Bisherige Preistraeger waren:
1987: Dr. Mahmoud Abassi und Sr. Rose-Therese Sant
1989: David Grossmann
1991: Elisheva Hemker
1993: Dr. Kirsten Stoffregen-Pedersen (“Schwester Abraham”)
1995: Dalia und Jeheskel Landau und Elias und Heyam Shakur
1997: Sumaya Farhat- Naser und Yizchak Frankenthal <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
1999: Shmuel Toledano und Asscad Araidy
PART II:
Subject: [neah] Palestinian Women’s Voice for Peace Silenced
Palestinian Woman’s Voice for Peace Is Silenced on International Women’s
Day,
2001
Sumaya Farhat-Naser, the director of the Jerusalem Center for Women (Bat
Shalom’s Palestinian partner in the Jerusalem Link) will not be
traveling this
week to San Francisco. She was scheduled to keynote the Global Fund for
Women’s Celebration of International Women’s Day on March 8th. Having
been
denied a travel permit (the current situation for all Palestinians),
Sumaya
accepted an offer of assistance from members of Bat Shalom’s board of
directors to intervene with the Israeli Foreign Ministry on her
behalf. After more than a week of negotiations with Israeli officials,
the best they could offer Sumaya was travel to San Francisco for one day
–
March 8th – followed by an immediate return home.
Needless to say, Terry Greenblatt, Bat Shalom’s director and Sumaya’s
co-keynote speaker, did not face such obstacles to traveling abroad.
Terry will be in the United States for two weeks – without restriction.
Should not the host country – in this case,the United States – make its
own
decision as to who should enter its borders,and for how long? Evidently
not.
It is hard to comprehend how, even according to I.D.F. security
guidelines,
Sumaya would pose a “security” threat. A married women with teen-aged
children, a university professor in the sciences, a Global Fund for
Women
board member, she is the recipient of many international awards for the
work
she does on behalf of peace.
However, the real issue here is not “security” but rather the desire
by the state of Israel to extend the policy of “closure” and
intimidation beyond the cities and villages of the Occupied Territories
to
the entire world. In Sumaya’s words, “Restriction on my movement and
on
my very being? This is something I can never accept. It is a matter of
principle, and thus a part of my struggle towards
liberation. Enough is the occupation in my own native land and in my
home, but
never can I agree to an Israeli occupation that extends all over the
globe. It is insulting and goes beyond all sense of human dignity!”
Sumaya’s talk on March 8th was to have been on the theme “women as
peacemakers.” While we are still trying to exert whatever influence we
have, the prospects for an unrestricted travel permit for Sumaya are
negligible. It seems appropriate on this International Women’s Day to
heed
Hanan Ashrawi’s inspirational call to all women working in peace
processes:
“We share the feeling of personal responsibility and accountability
toward
those who support each other. There is no big boss to reward you with a
pat on
the back. The reward is the woman who tells you, ‘You have spoken on my
behalf, you were my voice when I was silenced. You protected my
rights. I
trust you.”
Bat Shalom suggests that you commemorate this International Women’s Day
by raising your voice as an ally to a woman and an organization of
peace.
Whatever resources are at your disposal, wherever and however you do
your
work for social and political change – do something on March 8th that
ensures
silence will not prevail.
For those who would like to send messages of solidarity to Sumaya,
please direct
them to the Jerusalem Center for Women’s email address: [email protected]
—
————————————————————————–
Bat Shalom is a feminist peace organization working toward a just
peace between Israel and its Arab neighbors. Bat Shalom, together
with The Jerusalem Center for Women, a Palestinian women’s peace
organization, comprise The Jerusalem Link. Visit our web site for
more information and our latest activities: http://www.batshalom.org
We gratefully accept contributions to help support our work. Checks
in any currency can be mailed to Bat Shalom, POB 8083, Jerusalem
91080, Israel. Tel: +972-2-563 1477; Fax: +972-2-561 7983. See our
web site for information about tax-deductible contributions or bank
transfers.
To subscribe to Bat Shalom’s newsletter, please reply by e-mail with
the word “Subscribe” in the subject line. To unsubscribe, please
write “Unsubscribe” in the subject line.
From [email protected] Fri Mar 9 16:09:57 EST 2001
Article: 258947 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!
newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news2.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
From: Roger Alexander <[email protected]>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: Gush Shalom ad March 1 : STATE TERRORISM
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 45
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 13:37:14 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.61.184.216
X-Trace: news2.atl 983648102 208.61.184.216 (Sat, 03 Mar 2001 14:35:02 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 14:35:02 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:174832 soc.culture.israel:327931 soc.culture.usa:603789
soc.culture.canada:258947 soc.culture.british:552840
From [email protected] Fri Mar 9 16:10:09 EST 2001
Article: 259327 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!
newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news3.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
From: Roger Alexander <[email protected]>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.british
Subject: Re: Web hate on trial as Zundel case nears end
References: <3A9D99C[email protected]> <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 47
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 20:09:11 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.20.149.87
X-Trace: news3.atl 984103648 66.20.149.87 (Thu, 08 Mar 2001 21:07:28 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 21:07:28 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:175465 soc.culture.canada:259327 soc.culture.usa:606245
soc.culture.british:554720
