Alexander 0102-3, Alexander Roger

http://www.washingtonjewishweek.com/cgi-bin/liveique.acgi$rec=1229?wjw

We should be ashamed of ourselves | Eric H. Yoffie

Special to Washington Jewish Week | February 15, 2001

President Clinton was a good friend of the Jews, but many of his
last-minute pardons were simply outrageous. Among the most indefensible
were those granted to Jews, but scarcely a voice of Jewish protest has
been
heard. Instead, our community and its leaders have remained silent in
some
cases and
actually supported the pardons in others.

The result is that we have undermined our community’s moral fabric,
jeopardized our political standing, disillusioned our youth and
compromised
the sacred values of our tradition. In short, the moral stain of this
sordid affair has begun to engulf us.

Mr. Clinton pardoned four Chasidic thieves from the Skverer sect in New
Square, N.Y., convicted of robbing the government of $11 million by
setting
up a fictitious yeshiva to receive federal student aid money. Chasidic
leaders and lawyers for the men, with no apparent irony, have justified
the
commutations
on the grounds that many other yeshivot were doing the same thing and
that
the funds were channeled back into their community rather than being
used
for personal gain.

For Jews, this is not simply another case of fraud and embezzlement.
This
is a case of religious people inventing an imaginary Torah institution
to
steal from the government, using the funds for other activities of their

religious community, and then defending their actions on the grounds
that
the money did not go directly into their own pocket.

Throughout there is an implication that in some way all of this is
religiously acceptable. But of course it is not. Their actions are
nothing
short of a hillul Hashem — a desecration of God’s name. Jews who break
the
law in God’s name and turn Torah into an instrument of thievery are
bringing Judaism into disrepute. However, with the honorable exception
of
the Orthodox Union’s David Luchins, I cannot find a single example of a
religious leader who has spoken out publicly against their reasoning.

In the absence of unequivocal public contrition by all concerned, the
pardons were a serious mistake. It is never in our interest for actions
to
be taken that allow Torah to be so misrepresented and debased.

The Marc Rich pardon is even more distressing. Charged with massive tax
evasion and breaking an embargo on trading with Iran, Rich is a
multi-millionaire fugitive from justice who lives in luxury in
Switzerland. I am in no position to judge Mr. Rich’s legal claims, but
neither are the many Jewish leaders and luminaries who contacted
President
Clinton in support of the pardon. Why their interest in a man who
appears
to have traded illegally not only with Iran but with Iraq and Libya,
rogue
states devoted to Israel’s
destruction?

The answer is simple: They were bought. Mr. Rich contributed generously
to
Jewish causes and charities around the world, and then, in a carefully
orchestrated campaign, called in favors to put pressure on the
president.
Philanthropists, religious leaders and Israeli political leaders, most
of
them beneficiaries of his largesse, responded with calls and letters.

Rabbi Irving “Yitz” Greenberg, chair of the U.S. Holocaust Memorial
Council, made an exceedingly serious error when he sent a letter to
Clinton
on council stationery. But even accepting that this was a secretary’s
mistake, I believe that Greenberg was used, that his position in the
community dictated caution in such matters, and the letter should never
have been sent. One can only marvel at Rabbi Greenberg’s statement that
he
supported the pardon because Rich “did good in a situation where he
would
not get recognition.”

Rich’s calculated effort to inundate the president with appeals from his

supporters indicates that he was anything but selfless.

But again, Rabbi Greenberg was hardly alone. According to press reports,

Ehud Barak called President Clinton twice, Jerusalem’s Mayor Ehud Olmert

wrote the president, and dozens of Jewish and Israeli philanthropists
weighed in with support.

There were virtually no voices in the Jewish community that protested
the
Rich pardon or our own response to it.

If Mr. Rich wants to support Jewish causes, that is fine, and admirable.
An
indicted fugitive is entitled to do good works with his resources, but
he
is not entitled to koved (honor), to a quid pro quo, or to
rehabilitation
of his name by the recipients, at least not until the legal process has
run
its course.

I am particularly troubled by the prominence that Mr. Rich was given in
the
Birthright Israel program and the public support that he received from
the
program’s other backers. (Birthright Israel provides free Israel trips
to
college students and young adults.)

What is it that we are trying to teach our idealistic young people?
That,
no matter what, the super-rich take care of their own? That, for a
price,
anyone can purchase moral respectability?

I am an enthusiastic supporter of Birthright, but I know that the beauty

and drama of Israel will not be enough to draw young Jews to our
tradition.
They will embrace it only if they are exposed to the grandeur of Jewish
ethics, and if they see from our teaching and example that Judaism has a

great moral purpose.

The Clinton pardons presented the Jewish community with an important
moral
test. We failed. I hope and pray that we will do better next time.

Eric H. Yoffie is president of the Union of American Hebrew
Congregations,
the synagogue arm of the Reform Movement of Judaism. <end>

=====================================

Of course, these pardons show Clinton as scum, nothing more.
RLA

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Joel Rosenberg wrote:

> Roger Alexander <[email protected]> writes:
>
> > Perhaps. But just answer this. Is it right what Israel is doing to the
> > Palestinians?
>
> Of course not. Putting up with that level of terrorism and violence
> isn’t right at all.

Well, here you have it, red leg fans. A zion-simp says that Israel
shouldn’t have to put up with

> that level of terrorism and violence.
>
He neglects the sordid history of Israel, the violence the Jews have visited
on the native people
of Palestine, the violence they are visiting on them every day. A little
biased perhaps,
maybe a lot biased.

Seriously, the inability to judge all people by the same standard is typical
of
chauvinist groups worldwide. It was typical of France in the nineteenth and
early 20th centuries,
Germany and Italy in their fascist period. Indeed fascism and chauvinism
often go hand in hand.
This appears true in Israel. The Nit was just here speaking to the
Conservative
Political Action Committee, and I couldn’t help but remark that his speech
would have gone over well in Nazi Germany.
RLA

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<!doctype html public “-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en”>
<html>
&nbsp;
<p>Joel Rosenberg wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>Roger Alexander &lt;[email protected]> writes:
<p>> Perhaps.&nbsp; But just answer this.&nbsp; Is it right what Israel
is doing to the
<br>> Palestinians?
<p>Of course not.&nbsp; Putting up with that level of terrorism and violence
<br>isn’t right at all.</blockquote>
Well, here you have it, red leg fans.&nbsp; A zion-simp says that Israel
<br>shouldn’t have to put up with
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>
<pre>that level of terrorism and violence.</pre>
</blockquote>
He neglects the sordid history of Israel, the violence the Jews have visited
on the native people
<br>of Palestine, the violence they are visiting on them every day.&nbsp;
A little biased perhaps,
<br>maybe a lot biased.
<p>Seriously, the inability&nbsp; to judge all people by the same standard
is typical of
<br>chauvinist groups worldwide.&nbsp; It was typical of France in the
nineteenth and early 20th centuries,
<br>Germany and Italy in their fascist period.&nbsp; Indeed fascism and
chauvinism often go hand in hand.
<br>This appears true in Israel.&nbsp; The Nit was just here speaking to
the Conservative
<br>Political Action Committee, and I couldn’t help but remark that his
speech would have gone over well in Nazi Germany.
<br>RLA
<br>&nbsp;</html>

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From [email protected] Tue Mar 6 16:02:37 EST 2001
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No Magic Solution

By Youssi Sarid
15 February 2001- yade’ot

Another morning shines with pain to bring us back to unbearable reality.
It
is impossible to categorize “Terrorist attacks” according to its level
of
dangerousness. Every attack is dangerous when it causes casualties. Yet,

yesterday’s attack was painfully nerve wrecking and would be remembered
for
a long time. Everyone felt the pain and all were frustrated. The
frustration
is a result of our failure to put an end to “Terrorism” and cut off the
arm
that is stretched to kill us. There is no one to blame but us.

Frustration is always a direct result of unrealized expectations. Every
time, officials and politicians stand in front of media cameras to tell
us
what we should do or have not done. The frustration was too deep these
days.
We were under the illusion, during the election campaign a week ago,
that
soon the army would prevail. But the army cannot achieve victory. We
must
say the truth even during these hard times. I hope to have a different
fact
that could be encouraging to my people. God forbid if we do not
acknowledge
the limits of power, because if we do not, we would lose that power.

Suppose we blew up the front lines in Bait Jala or Ramallah, assassinate

high ranking-officials in the PNA, or re-occupy the city of Gaza, would
this
stop “Terrorist attacks”? Then, what? No more attacks? We were in Gaza
for
25 years and we totally failed to put an end to “Terrorism”. We must
remember and remind others as well that we were the only ones in charge
when
the first Intifada (The 1987 Uprising) occurred. They did hit us real
hard
and caused us a lot of pain.

Sometimes, politicians try to sell us another magical remedy, a rigorous

closure or a “We are here and they are there” type of remedy. The
rigorous
closure cannot be strict enough as those magicians know very well,
especially in certain places like Jerusalem. Strict closures and/or
complete
segregation are next to impossible. Even if we implement the proposed
segregation plan the Palestinians would strike at settlers and the
soldiers
guarding settlements.

We are too close to use an extremely unprecedented level of military
force.
The Palestinians in the Territories are living extremely hard times.
With
Israeli blockades, closures, sieges, unemployment has hit many families,

poverty spreading widely, people on the verge of starvation and despair
is
getting deeper.

These are the breeding grounds of “Terrorism” and the number of
“Terrorists”
multiplies in such circumstances. Thus the circle of trepidation spreads

even wider. They strike and we retaliate. They persevere and we do too.
Thus, the prospect of “Terrorism” grows.

Logic and past experience had taught us that states fight “Terrorism”,
not
only because it threatens Israel and turns our life miserable, rather
because “Terrorism” poses a threat to Israel and to the regimes of these

states also. Those regimes have a vested interest to counter “Terrorism”

because this menace often rebels against its creator or those who
surrender
to its activities. This is the reason why “Terrorism” is non-existent in

Egypt or Jordan and no direct “Terrorism” in Syria. Accordingly,
“Terrorism”
would be non-existent in the Palestinian state because of its vested
interest to fight it otherwise it would destroy that state from within.

There is only but one question that worries me very much. Could the
Palestinian state, in the circumstances that prevailed recently, enjoy
any
kind of stability? Could this state live up to world expectation? The
Palestinian Authority is on the verge of collapse to irreparable extent.
God
forbid, it would be a catastrophe when it does collapse. At that time,
we
would face the most grueling phase in our history. With no central
authority, factions, gangs and militias would be active throughout the
area
creating havoc.

Perhaps, the recent wanton elections have something positive after all.
The
Israeli public would soon find out that neither the Rightist government
nor
a national coalition has the right remedy. There would be no one
promoting
illusions when the public finally awakens. Only then we would stand on
the
same grounds to face reality.

In this case, we would stand with eyes wide open, to help establish the
Palestinian state and demarcate the borders between Israel and that
state
with or without an agreement. We would have to, unilaterally, dismantle
the
settlements that hinder the demarcation of borders that meet our
demographic
and security necessities. We would, willfully, call for an international

force to serve as buffer and oversee the armistice agreement between the
two
states. We would be able to iron out the remaining differences through
negotiations when some relative calmness prevails.

From [email protected] Tue Mar 6 16:02:37 EST 2001
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Whether Makowsky knows him or not, a post by Makowsky was on Roth’s board
last week.
RLA

David Lee Makowsky wrote:

> I want to restate this is another lie by Roger. I have no idea as to
> who Roth is, and I have never had anything to do with any of his
> “boards”. This includes writing on them.
>
> In article <[email protected]>,
> Roger Alexander <[email protected]> wrote:
> # There were posts from Syvinski and from Makowski on one of Roth’s boards last
> # week.
> # RLA
> #
> # “Wayne M. Syvinski” wrote:
> #
> # > > In article <[email protected]>,
> # > > Roger Alexander <[email protected]> wrote:
> # > > # This jerk has posted stuff so rotten on Hank Roth’s boards that Roth has
> # > > # vowed to stop the next
> # > > # stupidity. And this is from a guy, Roth, so imbued with Zionism that he
> # > > # gladly takes posts from
> # > > # Jack Garbuz and Makowsky.
> # > > # RLA
> # >
> # > This article hasn’t hit my news server yet (I’m quoting from a followup that
> # > did), but I presume I’m the “jerk” in question.
> # >
> # > #1: I don’t know who Hank Roth is.
> # > #2: I therefore have never intentionally posted to “Hank Roth’s boards”,
> # > wherever it is/they are.
> # > #3: I for some time now have only posted to Usenet and to a local UBB-based
> # > site that I’m sure has nothing to do with Hank Roth.
> # > #4: I have never been censured by anyone in any official capacity for the
> # > items I have posted to Usenet or any other message board.
> # > #5: Never has anyone named Hank Roth (or anyone else, for that matter)
> # > threatened to cancel or otherwise limit my posting of anything.
> # >
> # > The point, of course – you may think the stuff I post is rotten, but tough
> # > s***.
> # >
> # > So…as loathe as I am to put up something not directly germane to this
> # > group, I’m not putting up with your BS unchallenged, and I’ll keep posting
> # > all the satire I want. You and your Moslem totalitarianists haven’t managed
> # > to get our First Amendment repealed yet.
> #
>
> —
> There are three types of people in the world. Those that are good at
> math and those that are not.
>
> [email protected]

From [email protected] Tue Mar 6 16:02:37 EST 2001
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No sirree Bob, that is not reason for you to be ashamed. You have pleanty of other reasons,
over 100,000 dead Arabs, more than three million refugees who cannot come home, terror
assassinations, all sorts of rotten deeds to be ashamed of. That you have no shame is the ture
mark of your inhumanity.
RLA

Red Herring wrote:

> On Mon, 19 Feb 2001 08:44:57 -0600, Roger Alexander
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >http://www.washingtonjewishweek.com/cgi-bin/liveique.acgi$rec=1229?wjw
> >
> >We should be ashamed of ourselves | Eric H. Yoffie
> >
> >Special to Washington Jewish Week | February 15, 2001
> >
> >President Clinton was a good friend of the Jews, but many of his
> >last-minute pardons were simply outrageous.
>
> A typical self-hating drivel.
>
> Just because All-American crook and notorious anti-semite Bill Clinton has
> sold presidential pardons to felons some of whom happened to be Jewish does
> not mean that we should be in any way ashamed of ourselves.
>
> —
> “The actions taken by the United States in the name of international legitimacy in recent years
> are the worst sort of contemporary barbarism worse that we have seen in this century from
> the Nazis, the Fascists, the Jews, the Cambodians, the Serbs, and the Rwandans.”
> (Palestinian Authority’s mouthpeace Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, Gaza, 12/2/1998)
> —

From [email protected] Tue Mar 6 16:02:38 EST 2001
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again; bad Bill, bad
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Stolen, I admit it from a mail list, but this is too good to let go.
Bill Friend is a distinguished
Jewish American and antiZionist. He just cannot abide the hypocrisy
(Zionists who cannot
spell the word please take note) of the shills for Israel who masquerade
as concerned
citizens. I get discouraged with the continuing murders and other
lesser atrocities the
damnable Zionists are carrying out on the defenseless Palestinians, so
it is good to have
a bright spot in anotherwise dismal picture. Bill’s nom de plume is
Zevei Wolf or sea wolf.
RLA

To the editors:

I am not familiar with Ms. Amiel; as to whether she is a columnist for
your newspaper or as to whether she is merely an individual citizen
saying her peace. However I take issue with many of her assumptions and
presumptions which she comes forth with in her opinion piece below. For
the sake of clarity, I will intersperce my remarks as commentary to her
statements in brackets [ ].

Israel must survive for Judaism to have a future
By Barbara Amiel

[ From the very beginning, in her title, Ms. Amiel makes a very broad
assumption that a world religion, which has existed since time
immemorial is dependent on a state created by various world powers in
1948. Many Jewish clergy as well as laity, especially in the United
States are decrying the fact that since its inception, and partially
because of the very real and grave tragedy of the Nazi holocaust against
the Jews of Europe, the self-described, de jure, “Jewish State”, has
become a substitute for universalist Judaism. I could list any number
of rabbis and other Jewish theologians who have spoken out against this
latest form of idol worship, in any number of opinion journals targeted
to primarily Jewish audiences. For the sake of brevity however, I will
only list some of the journals in which this case has been made: Tikkun
Magazine, Midstream, Reform Judaism Magazine (the official organ of the
Union of American Hebrew Congregations of North America), Lilith,
Commentary and others.
There is one quote which I cannot fail to include, and it is from the
editor and publisher of Tikkun, Rabbi Michael Lerner. Writing in the
March/April 1998 issue, in an article entitled “Post-Zionism, Restoring
Compassion, Overcoming Chauvanism”, Rabbi Lerner states at the outset; ”

” If you judge ‘who is a people’s God’ by what they hold sacred,
where and for whom they are prepared to make sacrifices, where and for
whom they spend their money, then you have to conclude that for much of
the past fifty years, the real object of worship of much of the Jewish
people has been Israel and Zionism. Unfortunately, LIKE ALL FALSE GODS
this one has failed to satisfy the spiritual hunger of the Jewish
people. (all emphases are mine -B.F.)
If many Jews turn away from Judaism today, Israel has played no
small part in that process.”

in fact, Lerner concludes something which Ms. Amiel no doubt would find
startling,

” Judaism may be one of Israel’s most important casualties. The state
that was created to preserve Jews may be at the center of the process
that leads Jews away from their Jewishness” ]

DOES it matter if the Jews as a people or nation continue to exist? Once
this was the sort of question I played with at university over cups of
bad coffee in the early Sixties. Were the Jews a race, a religion, a
culture, a tribe? Whatever we were, we were living a good life in
Britain, America and the West in general. In those simple, heady days,
the state of Israel was seen as a heroic little country.

[ Considering the fact that at the time Ms. Amiel pondered these
profound questions, she was a college student without very much
perspective on things, one might understand how she would have doubts
about some of the above issues, and a grave misconception about what
Israel truly is, which is anything but “a heroic little country”. In
order to make this clear, it becomes necessary to deconstruct virtually
the entire thought process above.
I think that to the first question posed, does it matter if the Jews
as a people or a nation continue to exist, that the answer is Yes.
However, just as one makes assumptions when asking another person if
they “believe in God” and the other person answers in the affirmative;
one must avoid certain assumptions to my answering Yes to her question.
Answering the first question in the affirmative is contingent on what
one means by Jews as a people. The late Rabbi Elmer Berger, wrote at
great length on the quantum difference between Jewish people and THE
Jewish people. There are manifestly, somewhere in the neighborhood of
15 to 16 million Jews in the world; so there are certainly enough people
who are Jews to make that question rhetorical. However, since the
inception of the Judaic religion, Judaism has always been a group of
persons freely associating with the creed of Judaic thought. That one
can cease being a Jew by virtue of conversion, or simply abandonment of
that creed has always been an option.
One can always change one’s religious affiliation without much
hindrance, unlike changing one’s ethnic background.
Are Jews a nation? No. The state of Israel is certainly a nation in
the commonly understood definition of that term. But Jews are members of
a religion. The early Zionists, such as Herzl and especially Chaim
Weizmann, who ascended to the chair of the Zionist Organization after
his predecessor’s early death at the age of forty; would interchangeably
use the word “people” and “nation” as it suited them, for the
understanding of those controlling the great powers of the day – Great
Britain, Imperial Russia, Germany, the Ottoman Empire and France.
The document which came to be known as The Balfour Declaration was
quite specific and careful in its diplomatic wording. “His Majesty’s
government approve with favour…a national home for the Jewish
people…” At the time, the official language of the Z.O. was German,
and in German, home and state under the word “heimstatte” are virtually
interchangeable. Thus the high presumption made in this document,
parenthetically over the strenuous objections of the one Jew in the
British Cabinet at the time, Lord Edwin Montagu, Viceroy of India; is
that THE Jewish people (which the Zionists always thought of as a
nationality) needed their own STATE. This state of course would be
national, not in the way one understands French or American nationalism,
but a “herrenvolkest” state, in the manner of the German nationalism
which led to the ascendancy of the Nazis under Hitler. Blood and soil
was the watchword of the day in the Third Reich, along with the need for
“liebensraum”, breathing space for this German “volk”, at the expense of
all of the “non-Aryans” residing on German soil (blood).
The urge is now to poke a bit of fun at Ms Amiel’s lamenting over
bad coffee. Since we are obviously contemporaries, as I too spent my
college years in the socially revolutionary sixties, I too had my share
of bad coffee, over “allnighters”, and yes I’ll admit it, unlike our
lately unlamented ex-President, Bill Clinton; I did in fact, on more
than one occasion – inhale.
Having overindulged in some substances, it is easy to understand why
a college student might bring forth questions, the answers to which had
already been settled.
No serious anthropologist considers Jews to be a race, so why even
bother to raise the question?
Since by definition, a Jew is someone who subscribes to the religion
known as Judaism, it is on its face apparent that to be Jewish is to
subscribe to a particular religion, however tenuously one does so. Even
though many in other religions cannot understand the concept of how one
might affirm they are an atheist while maintaining that one is a Jew; it
must be mentioned that there is in fact a branch of Judaism composed of
atheists known as Secular Humanistic Judaism; founded by Rabbi Sherwin
T. Wine( ordained in the Reform movement at the HUC-JIR seminary) of
Minnesota.
The center of the movement is still located there at the Birmingham
Temple.
Rabbi Wine makes this case in his book, “Judaism Beyond God publ.
KTAV Publishing House, 1995 jointly with the Society for Humanistic
Judaism. Another important work from that particular branch of Judaism
is “Judaism in a Secular Age – an anthology of Secular Humanistic Jewish
Thought” also date and publishers the same.
“A culture?” Not even close. I hate to disabuse most of my Jewish
friends of that notion, but there has never been such a thing as a
“Jewish culture”. Rather, there have been any number of “Jewish
cultures”, all dependent on where any particular group of Jews found
themselves at some point in history. All cultures have certain markers
– a common language, common modes of dress, common foods, common
folklore, even common recreational activities.
Thus among Jews, especially those of northern and eastern Europe,
and now the predominant population of Jews in N. America; there was
certainly a specific culture known as Ashkenazic. I am a product of
this culture, as my maternal grandparents came from the Pale of
Settlement, and my Paternal grandparents from Austria-Hungary. This
culture was distinquished by the use of Yiddish as the common language
(Hebrew, being the “holy tongue” was restricted for use in prayer at
shuls, and even sermons were delivered in Yiddish.), many of the Jews in
the pale would wear what we now know as Hasidic modes of dress, while
others would wear what was common among other people of that area.
Certain foods which we now think of as “Jewish” hail from that region,
such as bagels, smoked fish, prepared and seasoned meats and certain
weekend stews (cholent). Folktales particular to that area were
popularized in the general culture by the man we know as Shalom
Aleichem; and woe to the son who did not practice on his violin. But
this culture was not Jewish.
Many Jews in Britain and N. America, are quite correct when they state
that they “feel” Jewish. They certainly feel a distinctness, but that
distinctness is not Jewish, it is Ashkenazic, as they are part of that
great subdivision of Jews known as Ashkenazim.
Distinct from their northern and eastern co-religionists were of
course, the Sephardim, the “Spanish and Portuguese” Jews, who were
expelled as we all know, and wound up in The Netherlands, in the New
World, and in North Africa. The language of the Sephardim is Ladino; a
completely different tongue than Yiddish with a different derivation.
Much sephardic cooking incorporates rice and legumes, two things
virtually unknown in Ashkenazic cooking. In fact, on the Passover,
Sephardim are permitted rice whereas it is prohibited to Ashkenazim.
Other cultural factors also fall into the same places. What do these
two separate and disparate cultures have in common? They practice the
same religion, Judaism, and that is all.
The same case can be made for Jews from Arab countries, who
culturally feel Arab, Persian Jews, Indian Jews and even Chinese Jews.
Yes, Virginia, there is a kosher Chinese restaurant in NYC called
Cho-Sen (get it?) but it is not the same thing as Chinese Jews.
Are Jews a tribe? Only as in the snickering question, “Are you a
member of the tribe? (M.O.T.)”
Of course, this misconception comes from the biblical history of the
twelve tribes, ten of which were “lost” (in reality the populace
assimilated into the surrounding Assyrian culture), leaving only Judah
and Benjamin, the latter being incorporated into the remaining kingdom
of Judea (and hence the name Jew). However, since that time, those
known as Jews have intermarried with the communities in which they found
themselves, people have entered the religion, left the religion; and an
entire country, Khazaria, was by royal decree converted to the Judaic
religion. This country flourished as an important buffer state in the
area north of the Baltic, Caspian and Aral seas, the latter two of which
it half encapsulated between the years circa 700c.e. to 1100 c.e. Even
today in afternoon Hebrew schools, children are taught the legend of
King Bulan, and how he chose Judaism over both Christianity and Islam.
The current country of the former USSR, Khazakstan, now approximates the
borders of that ancient kingdom.
Yes, whether British, American or other Western Jew, we were living
the good life. How ironic that that very statement completely refutes
one of the fundamental premises of Herzlian Political Zionism. This
19th century utopian philosophy, in all aspects a virtual mirror image
of the virulent strain of 19th century racist, as distinguished from
religious, Jew-hatred (anti-Semitism) was predicated on two tenets:
(1) Jews were and are unassimilable into general European society
(2) Because of (1) the “solution to the Jewish question in Europe”
(a phrase invented by Herzl and only borrowed by Hitler) was to form a
separate state….somewhere.

What has been proven in this century is that both premises were not
only incorrect but ludicrous.
It is ironic that one of the things that scares modern Zionists the most
is the high rate of acculturation (they prefer to use the word,
assimilation, as a pejorative term) of Jews marrying “outside”. In some
sections of the U.S. this rate exceeds 50% of all marriages in which one
of the spouses is a Jew. Was not the goal to be accepted among the
population in general? What better proof than to take on and be
accepted by a non-Jewish spouse and her family?
As for “The Jewish State”, I ask, in what country are Jews in more
jeopardy merely for the fact that they are Jews, than in the state of
Israel? In all countries in the West, Jews are completey free to
worship as they please, where they please, and when they please, by
rabbis of whatever sex and/or sexual orientation they please in some of
the denominations without the censure of either the state or the head of
the state religion, as they are in “The Jewish State”. In Israel, of
course, only one branch of Judaism is recognized as “torah true” and
that of course is Orthodoxy. This is not merely custom but is
incorporated into the laws of the State of Israel. Why on earth, any
Jew seeking religious freedom would put up with such an anomaly is
entirely beyond me.]

Nothing essential about Israel has changed since then but the Zeitgeist
has changed and, about 30 years ago, Israel went out of fashion.

[ Woops, sorry love. Israel did not change fashion statements. What
happened is that thirty years ago, Israel conquered in war (who started
it is a valid point of contention, but keep in mind that Menachem Begin
himself admitted that Israel did, and that he knew that Gamal Abdel
Nasser was saber rattling. It was seen as an opportunity to grab land
that the fix was in for with Britain and France in ’56, but Ike held
firm against his erstwhile WWII allies. ) all of the remainder of the
territory of the former British Mandate, plus the Golan, plus Gaza, plus
The Sinai. The only thing that had gone out of fashion, and that was
since the end of WWII was the conquest of land by force of arms. ]

This has created an irony that the early founders of Zionism never
foresaw.

[ Were Ms. Ariel to study just a little history, she would find that the
early Zionist maps show a “greater Eretz Israel” which they intended to
retake, on some maps encompassing everything from the Eastern shore of
the Nile to the Euphrates, or as it is written in the Tenakh, “from the
river Nile to the great river.” The fact that the Nile has more than
twice the drainage basin of the Euphrates and therefore ought to be
“The Great River” was apparently lost on an all-knowing god. Be that as
it may, other “more realistic” maps presented to both the formulators of
the Balfour Declaration, and again to the powers meeting to divide up
the middle east at the Paris Peace talks in 1919 by the Zionist
Organization, show a “Jewish State” with the northern border on the
Litani river (remember that “security zone”?) the eastern border
extending to the Damascus-Petra-Amman railway, the southern border well
into the Sinai, and the western border from El-Arish all the way up to
Tyre, certainly shows that not only did the early founders foresee where
they wanted the borders of the Jewish State to go, but that except for
bugging out of the “security zone”, and relinquishing the Sinai back to
Egypt, they have pretty much accomplished what they set out to do!]

Israel was established to spare Jews physical danger and anti-Semitism.

[Well, that was the party line, it certainly was not the goal of the
British. As for the Nazis, not only was the Yeshuv, the organized Jewish
community in the Palestine Mandate, virtually useless, but there is
remarkable and compelling evidence of cooperation by the Zionist
hierarchy with the Third Reich. Well, don’t take my word for it; read
The Transfer Agreement by Edwin Black; the same author who has just
released the worldwide bestseller about the collaboration between IBM
and the Nazis. Or read Zionism in the Age of the Dictators by Lenni
Brenner; or The Holocaust Victims Accuse, put out by the Neturei Karta
(“the guardians of the city”), or Ben-Gurions Scandals by Naiam Giladi,
who worked for the Mossad; or the classic in this regard, PERFIDY, by
the great playwrite, Ben Hecht. Note every person writing these
treatises is Jewish; not some wacko holocaust denier, or neoNazi
apologist. ]

The irony is that nowhere in the world does being a Jew carry a higher
price-tag than in Israel.

[ Well, she finally managed to get one thing correct!]

The question that now begins to force itself upon some of us is one we
have tried to avoid: is this grim scenario of killings and bombings and
endless warfare worth it – to the world and, on a personal level, to our
children? I think the answer is yes, but there are persuasive arguments
to be confronted.

[ This woman thinks that war is worth it? Well, Ms. Amiel, if you think
such nasty things are so compelling, why haven’t you made “aliyah”, and
joined the IDF upon embarcation. I’m sure someone there, perhaps the
war criminal Ariel Sharon, would be more than willing to put you at some
front line action – perhaps Hebron? Moreover, warfare is NEVER endless.
It is only the obstinacy of refusing to see the truth in all of this
that makes it seem endless. Here for your consideration, Ms Amiel is
the pure distillate – YOU STOLE THEIR LAND, THEY WANT IT BACK.
This is not complicated, it is actually very simple, and has been
the cause of all wars against colonialism for as long as colonialism has
existed. The given is that when the native population that has been
colonized exceeds that of the colonizer, the colony eventually fails, be
it of a regular colonialist nature, or as in the case of Israel, of a
settler colonialist nature. ]

The reaction of much of the media and many commentators to the election
of Ariel Sharon has been a lightning rod for this hostility to Israel.
“Is Ariel Sharon Israel’s Milosevic?” asked the LA Times. The
Independent’s Review section led with a front that described Sharon in
oversize type as a man whose “name is synonymous with butchery; with
bloated corpses and disembowelled women and dead babies, with rape and
pillage and murder”

[ Yes, and with good reason. Most people still remember the massacres
at Sabra and Shatilla in Lebanon during the unprovoked invasion of that
country by a Sharon-influenced-Begin in 1982. A Court of Law IN ISRAEL
found Sharon responsible for that massacre by Phalange forces, to the
extent that the recommendation was made that he never serve as Defence
minister again. They forgot to throw in Prime Minister, too bad.
However, many, including I dare say, Ms. Amiel, have completely
forgotten, or have never heard of Force 101, commanded by the young
Lieutenant Sharon which massacred over 40 defenseless women and children
in the town of Qibya back in 1953, or which invaded and killed scores of
people in el-Bureij in Gaza in late 1955 in an effort to provoke Egypt
into the Suez Canal war. There are other skeletons in the closet of
“The Bulldozer” as well. ]

The Guardian’s special report on the Middle East contained a piece by
journalist David Hirst. Hirst, a regular contributor to the online
English language Lebanese Daily Star, made his position on the Middle
East quite clear in a January 25 article for the Star.

[ David Hirst is also the author of the highly praised history of the
region titled “The Gun and the Olive Branch.” Ms. Amiel might do well
to pick up a copy. It is more readily available in Britain than it is
back here in the colonies. ]

For him, the state of Israel is a “colonialist enterprise” and any
solution to the conflict begins with the assumption that every inch of
Israel is “usurped land” and the entire entity is illegitimate.

[ And there you have it.]

Yesterday’s Observer ran a poem by the highly regarded Arts Council
recipient Tom Paulin that described “the Zionist SS”.

One can take the view, legitimately, that Israel is a disputed land with
two peoples each believing it is theirs, and that it is difficult to say
who is right or wrong. What is immoral and illogical is to talk about
international law, rights and wrongs, and then blithely disregard every
rule, whether it is the UN resolution establishing Israel,

[ Ms. Amiel may find this difficult. I find it blessedly easy. Since she
brought up international law, why not discuss that for a moment. The
Hague Convention of 1908, set terms for the treatment of
non-belligerents on conquered territories. Now it is obvious that
Israel was not a signatory to that since it didn’t yet exist, yet upon
its establishment in 1948, the governing body of Israel agreed to abide
by that convention. Moreover, Israel IS a signatory to the Geneva IV
convention which is extremely specific on the same matter, and of which
Israel has either disregarded, ignored, circumvented or spat on every
article thereof.
As for UN resolution 181, which was the international resolution
voted on by a narrow majority in the General Assembly (try to get it
passed now!) on a second vote, and after much arm twisting; which gave
“international legitimacy” to a “Jewish State” also set up an “Arab
State” with Jerusalem as a “corpus separatum” belonging to neither.
Monday Quarterbacking of course is not very fair, but in hindsight, had
the Arabs accepted this, I believe there would be no Jewish state at the
current time. In fact, it may have lasted less than a decade since
inside its borders as directed by that resolution, 45% of the population
was Arab. What would Ben-Gurion have done without the pretext of the
refusal of the Arab states. Of course, can the Palestinian Arabs be
blamed for refusing to turn over the choicer parts of an area (The
Mandate) of which they owned 94% to settle for 45% of land much of which
was not arable (like the Negev?)? The Arabs rightly saw this action as
not only an insult but once again a betrayal, as had occurred in the
aftermath of WWI by the Western Powers. At that time, Britain and
France, acting under the secret Sykes-Picot agreement which contradicted
both the Hussein-McMahon Letters of Correspondence, AND The Balfour
Declaration at the same time; divided up the entire area of Greater
Syria between them. So once again the Arabs saw that the fix was in and
they smelled a very large rat by the name of Uncle Sam.
It was the specific goal of the leadership of the Yeshuv, and then
of the new state, to grab as much of the Arab designated territory as
possible before the great powers made their move. And they did. And in
the process threw 750,000 souls off their ancestral land, stole their
property and forced what now amounts to over two milion to live in
squalor.
But lets for the moment forget about 181 and jump to UNGA 194. This
resolution, the quid pro quo for the admission of Israel into the United
Nations, required that Ben-Gurion agree to repatriation and restitution
of the refugees. He agreed, then once Israel was in, he welched on the
deal. This resolution has been reconfirmed in every successive GA since
then; and what is amazing is that Israel has not been tossed out on its
rump from the assembly, in the same way that the Apartheid South Africa
was dealt with.
A careful reading of the “Oslo Peace Treaty” shows that it is in
reality, or thankfully WAS, a mechanism to circumvent UN resolutions 242
and 338 on which it was allegedly based. The more correct term for Oslo
should be “The Oslo Articles of Conditional Surrender”. Arafat
undoubtedly never read the document, preferring to take the money and
running to the nearest numbered Swiss bank account, or perhaps swimming
to the Cayman Islands. There is of course the wry joke told by
Palestinians among themselves about why Arafat can’t sink – His lips
keep him afloat. ]

the Oslo Accords, or laws against targeting civilians in terrorist
attacks or using civilians as shields for military attacks. This is like
umpiring a boxing match and letting your favourite contestant take a
submachine gun into the ring while shrilly pointing out any rules broken
by his opponent.

[ And that presumably is why 94% of the fatalities and casualties in the
current hostilities have been born by Palestinians?]

The Israelis are exhausted by it all. The country has been in a state of
war that started five hours after it came into being in 1948.

[ Once again demonstrating her poor grasp of history, Ms. Amiel
overlooks that fact that civil war in The Mandate started in earnest in
1947 as soon as Britain announced to the world that it was giving up the
ghost and going somewhere more profitable, although it never announced
just where that was. But then, when all else fails you could always
invade Canada, eh? The fighting never really stopped, and in truth had
been going on since the 20s, based on provocations from both sides, if
one is to be entirely honest. ]

This low-level war of 52 years has been interspersed with armed truces,
but it has never ceased and it is predicated on one simple fact: the
rejection by the Arab world of the UN vote to partition Palestine into
an Arab and a Jewish state in the Middle East. You can argue whether or
not this rejection is justified, and I have some sympathy for the
arguments of the Arabs, who had nothing to do with the Holocaust in
Europe that gave impetus to the establishment of the state of Israel in
their midst.

[ The Nazi holocaust against the Jews of Europe had nothing to do in
essence with the plans for A Jewish State. Those plans were on the books
long before Adolf Hitler did his worst. I will concede that the
realization of the world, of those horrors certainly generated
sympathy,goyisha guilt, however one must remember that the Zionists,
like the Nazis, used the genocide as a form of eugenics. They only
wanted to take those Jews who were able-bodied and of breeding age. Yes,
I know that is coarse, but then, the Zionists were coarse when the
leader of the Zionist Organization, Weizmann, referred to the majority
of “ostjuden” as “human dust”, unworthy of being saved, and in fact, a
detriment to the gene pool in the Zionist quest to create “The New
Hebrew man and woman.”
Hitler would have been pleased had he lived to see it. Ms. Amiel really
must read either The Holocaust Victims Accuse, or Perfidy. Ben Hecht by
the way was a member of the Irgun, so his terrorist credentials are
entirely in order. Oh yes, that great humanitarian and Nobel Peace Prize
winner Elie Weasel (sic) was also a member of the Irgun. I almost
forgot.]

But the fact of their non-acceptance is undeniable. Even Egypt, signer
of the first peace treaty with Israel, has never established anything
more than a cold-war accommodation with its Jewish neighbour.

[ So that makes Egypt, presumably, Israel’s Moslem neighbor? Ms. Amiel,
keep in mind that peace is merely the absence of hostilities. One does
not need to play kissy face. When the Brits kissed the French, did they
turn into handsome princes, or were most of them still frogs? ]

Indeed, of late, the anti-Israeli rhetoric has been heating up in Egypt.
Last December, in the government-sponsored weekly October magazine, a
two-part article by General Hassan Sweilem, “The Jewish personality and
Israeli actions”, concluded: “Historians, race-studies professors and
sociologists agree that humanity throughout its long history has never
known a race such as the Jewish race in which so many bad qualities,
base and loathsome, have been gathered.” The series included
anti-Semitic remarks attributed to George Washington and Benjamin
Franklin, first used in a vicious forgery that appeared in 1935 in
Germany in the Nazis’ Handbook on the Jewish Question.

[ Well, bravo Ms. Amiel. Of all of the cogent things and intelligent
things written in the Egyptian press, as exemplified by the weekly
Al-Ahram, you managed to find a certified anti-semite, to condemn the
entire intelligentsia of Egypt by. No, I am not defending those noxious
words at all, but perhaps you ought to take time to read some of the
legitimate critiques. ]

Once you face the fact that what exists in the Middle East is a war,
albeit a low-level one, the futility of trying to judge individual acts
is obvious. The world judges the warring parties anyway, according to
the spirit of the times. There was a time when, perhaps wrongly, every
Palestinian act was considered one of terrorism and similar Israeli acts
were never condemned. That lasted until the end of the 1960s. Now the
climate is such that only Israelis are judged.

[ Hey, remember when the Indians were the wild savages and the White men
were all the good guys protectin’ their wimmin’ from a-scalpin’ an’
worst? Then along came Dancing With Wolves and Black Robe and ruined
all of our fun. John Wayne died for our sins, you know.

“Do not forsake me oh mah dahlin’
On this are weddin’ day,……” – High Noon –

“Watchyou mean, “we” Kimosabe?” – Tonto – ]

Arab rejectionism is more obdurate than ever because it is closer than
ever to succeeding. Morale in Israel is low. Emigration is an option
when the computer age makes it feasible for labour to be mobile.

[ Actually emigration was a big option even back in the horse and buggy
days. In the early days of the Yeshuv, for several years, there were
more people leaving than coming, and this of course had the Zionists
very worried. Then Hitler came along and solved their problems. Isn’t
that amazing?
Quite the coincidence. Then of course there were the millions of Jews
who fled via any means possible, from the pogroms of the Tsars, and the
closest any of them ever came to a computer was an abacus. ]

You can as easily do your job in Cincinnati as Ramat Gan and not worry
about a bomb going off on a bus.

[ Well apparently you haven’t been to Cincinnati recently, or Baltimore,
Detroit, Philadelphia or any of the other crumbling inner cities of the
U.S. How’s Manchester by the way? ]

The Arabs are many, the Israelis few. As the Muslim world has said, we
can outwait you and we will prevail.

[ Is that what they said? You mean they didn’t say they were going to
throw the Jews into the sea? I coulda sworn that was what Ami Isseroff
of PeaceWatch told me. ]

Islam is on an upswing throughout the world. I come from a British
Jewish family that was all but assimilated.

[ Which part of you was NOT assimilated.]

I barely understand a word of Hebrew or Yiddish, yet my personal pride
comes from my Jewish identity.

[ Since the estimable Ms. Amiel concedes that she is “all but
assimilated”, does not understand two of the several languages
associated with Jews, I seriously question what precisely it is that she
uses to self-identify as a Jew? Could it be the universalist values
instilled by the prophets? Nah, she already stated she was in favor of
continuing war if that’s what it took. Jeremiah would definitely not
approve, nor would Isaiah and certainly not Micah. Could it be a deep
and abiding respect for the bare minimum of Judaism, “do not do unto
others that which is hateful to yourself, that is the entire Torah, all
the rest is commentary?” Nah, she thinks there is some latitude to the
dispute. What happened to a few of the Big Ten – You shall not steal,
you shall not lie, You shall not murder, You shall not covet that which
is your neighbors? Those are manifestly things which one could follow
which would impart Jewish identity.
I hope her Jewish identity does not simply extend to “gustatory
Judaism”, which means that she assiduously eats smoked salmon with her
kippers on Sunday mornings. ]

Given this, how can I fail to understand how strong the tribal sense of
belonging must be to those among the Arab and Islamic world, many of
whom are devout, highly religious and brought up with a narrow
perspective on the world compared with Western notions of liberalism?

[ And Ms. Amiel thoroughly studied the Qu’ran with Imam…….? ]

The problem with nationalism – or tribalism and deism – is that the
people who are immersed in it generally oppose everyone else’s version,
while those who are distanced from it don’t understand the power of such
notions and blithely bash on, trying to build happy multicultural
constructs. At the same time, Jews themselves lack some essential
character traits for survival. We can be excellent soldiers and
commandos. We may even have the odd sadist or death squad. But we don’t
revel in it.

[ ..and how nice to make these broad generalizations about groups of
people. Gee, Herr Goebbels would be proud! ]

We cannot contemplate mass population transfers and the extermination of
a people or nascent state as the price for the survival of Judaism. It
is not in the Jewish temperament.

[ What on earth would this “all but assimilated” Jewish woman know about
“Jewish temperament”, whatever on earth that is, and frankly I’m highly
insulted by the characterization that there is such a thing. I’m sure
Ms. Amiel is also an expert on “The Arab Mind”, as were many
“Orientalists” at the end of the 19th and beginning of the 20th
century. Oh yes, I suppose “all dem niggers be lazy” yessuh massa, as
well. It’s just part of their “temperament”, but damn they’re fast. ]

What many sentimental or Left-wing Jews, both inside and outside Israel,
do dream of is a multicultural Israel in which Jew and Arab live
together in harmony in one land under a flag flying both the red
crescent and the Star of David.

[ Well you could pick out a different color scheme for the new flag, but
on the other hand this is a contemplation devoutly to be wished, before
we shuffle off this mortal coil. It would be rather nice, rather than
constantly bearing the slings and arrows and stuff you know. By the
way, since you’re a Brit, I’ve always wanted to know something. What’s
a fardle? And why would be bear it? ]

Nice stuff if you could get it. If, deep down, some of these Jews
understand that within one hour of the crescent going up on the Jewish
flag, Israel as a Jewish state would end, they either don’t care or are
in denial.

[ And hey, that’s not just a river in Egypt, either.]

An Islamic state is not an inclusive state and has no room for full
citizenship for practising Jews.

[ Or even non-practicing, “all but assimilated Jews” who speak neither
“Hebrew nor Yiddish” as Ms. Amiel has so eloquently stated. But then
again, there is a presumption that this new entity would be an Islamic
State, and not a completely secular state. What is it that makes Ms.
Amiel think this. Moreover, if she practices no religion, why should she
care? Because she “feels Jewish”. She has no idea what a Jew is! ]

Would it really matter if Israel ceased to exist? For the extraordinary
achievements of its 52 years alone, it deserves to exist.

[ Kindly name some of those “extraordinary achievements”. OK, here’s
one in the annals of jurisprudence – The Present-Absentees Law. That’s
my personal favorite. ]

But, in the past 50 years since the end of the Second World War, the
actual necessity of a Jewish homeland seems to have progressively
diminished. Overt anti-Semitism has been all but vanquished. Certainly,
Jews appear to have given the Western world disproportionate gifts in
the arts, literature and sciences.

[ Ms. Amiel appears to be hung up on the collective. “Jews” did not
give this to the Western World. Individuals who just happened to be Jews
did. There just aren’t those many Einsteins, Freuds, Salks, Sabins, and
Stanley Kubricks (he’s a homey of mine) to go around. And thankfully
there aren’t those many Elie Weasels to go around either. And there was
only one Groucho.

“My name is Captain Spalding,
The eminent explorer
Did someone call me Schnorrer?
Dadadadada dup dup.” – Groucho Marx –

“Oh that this too too solid flesh would melt,
Thaw and resolve itself into a dew.” – that was either Jean Neidich
or Fergy, The Dutchess of York, I think.

But one of the great unknowables is whether an unassimilated group makes
more or less of a contribution than assimilated peoples. We don’t know
what the Samaritans or Babylonians, never mind the Visigoths, have given
to the world since they disappeared into the greater population pool.

[ Actually the Samaritans still exist and live near Nablus. What they
have taught the world is the dangers of inbreeding, similar to our own
Mississipians, Alabamans and Cajuns on this side of the lake. ]

Myself, I’d be sympathetic to the view that the unusual contribution
Jews have made to the world may have been due to the peculiar position
that we have never been fully assimilated, or become masters of our own
culture, and this has been a spur to Jewish achievement. This is purely
speculation and has no scientific basis at all.

[ That’s a relief, because besides being an interminable run-on sentence
it is a total brain fart.]

While organised anti-Semitism has been eliminated in the world today,
the situation of the Jews hasn’t fundamentally changed. Notwithstanding
the moderating forces of liberalism and the fact that we can live
peacefully anywhere, the same forces that turned Germany into Nazi
Germany still exist in the world.

[ I knew you had to be reading up on Richard Icke and the reptiles.]

Any people such as the Jews who do not have a country of their own may
forever be at the mercy of any virus that takes hold. We might live
peacefully for the next five generations without Israel. After all,
about five generations of Jews managed quite well from the time of the
Habsburgs’ Joseph II until the end of the Weimar Republic, suffering
only those restrictions that were totally normal in any place at that
time that had a Leitkultur or dominant culture.

[
ZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz…………………………………………….]

Only the Israelis can make the decision on whether to keep up the fight
for their country. All they really want is to be accepted by their
neighbours as a nation like any other. If that were genuine, all the
squabbling about holy places, settlers and borders could easily be
resolved. Israelis want to be able to travel from A to B without fear of
ambushes.

[ as opposed to EVERY PALESTINIAN who can’t “get there from here”without
a myriad of “peppers” as in “Vere er yur peppers? ACHTUNG!! ARBEIT MACHT
FREI!!!!! ]

They want to stop worrying whether or not their children will survive
military service – a requirement that is not simply a year or two of
some discomfort and disruptions, as it may be in other countries that
have an active military service, but a lottery in which their sons and
daughters may not come out alive.

Without Israel, it is hard to see how all Jews in the diaspora could
avoid assimilation.

[ If you are barely Jewish, why are you concerned with a “diaspora”. If
you are “all but assimilated” do you truly believe you are in exile?
And if you truly believe you are in exile, what the heck is stopping you
>from making “aliyah”? C’mon, if not for yourself, then do it for Edgar.
Hey, Birthright Israel and all that swill you know. ]

Jews have survived more than 2,000 years in the single, unshakeable
belief that one day their dislocation would end with their return to the
Promised Land. This is the central underpinning of Judaism. “Next year
in Jerusalem”

[ It is certainly a blessed thing that Ms. Amiel is NOT a rabbi. Not
even close. Ms. Amiel as she admits understands NOTHING about Judaism,
if she thinks that the central underpinning of Judaism is “next year in
Jerusalem”. The absolutely, fundamental tenet of Judaism is this:

“Choose life” In fact, just that is written on the walls of many
Synagogues. Not “Next year in Jerusalem, but this year in Cancun” as
I’ve heard so many joke at Pesach seders. By choosing Zionism over
Judaism, Ms. Amiel chooses death, for Zionism, just like the legendary
golden calf, will melt of its own weight as an abomination before man
and God, but especially before man. ]

is the single phrase every Jew hears and remembers from the moment he
can speak.

[ Actually the first thing I remember speaking was “Hey, cut that out!”
That was to the mohel. ]

If, this time, Israel is destroyed and the Jews leave, whether through
progressive absorption into an Islamic state or bloody warfare, there
seems little chance of a Third Temple and a return. Without the
possibility of Israel, Judaism becomes pointless.

[ Third Temple? Judaism has survived for 2,000 years without a third
temple. Moreover, in case you hadn’t noticed, it has progressed
immeasurably beyond the days of animal sacrifice and priests.
Moreover, how would you know when Judaism would become pointless, since
you have no idea what Judaism is to begin with? You know what, without
Israel, Judaism undergoes a renaissance.
More progress has been made within the religion of Judaism, since 1948,
outside of the state of Israel, than anything The Jewish State had to
contribute to the growth of religious sensibilities. ]

In the diaspora, the remaining practising Jews may well face unbearable
burdens.

[ Yes. I’m afraid my BMW is finally on its last legs. You know what, I
can’t take the flatulence anymore. If one is a practicing Jew in a free
country, who is placing a burden on the person? Is not that person free
to practice their religion in peace without interference, even if
virtually everyone around is not practicing any particular creed? Who
would bother this person? Is that what a fardle is? ]

We have put to rest the curse that we were responsible for the death of
Christ.

[ Thank God. Amen. ]

But if a Jewish state is eliminated from the Middle East, our children
may inherit such canards, for example, as our supposed role as
persecutors of the brave victorious Palestinian people. Losers do not
get a hearing. The Israelis will make their decision whether to carry on
the draining struggle for a Jewish state, but all Jews, even the
anti-Israel Jewish journalists in the West, may yet bear the
consequences of that decision.

[ And I’ll only have myself to blame.

Which is why my friends call me Wolfie.

“Hey there little red ridin’ hood,
You sure are lookin’ good,
‘Cause yur everthang that a big bad wolf could want…”

Sheesh, this trash makes a major British newspaper? Where’s Robert Fisk
when we need him? Or Chris Hitchens? What pub? Heheheh……..

I mean BAddddddddddd……………….

Sorry gang, I couldn’t stay serious with some of this pure utter bilge.
I know y’all are forgiving……]

Zevei

From [email protected] Tue Mar 6 16:02:38 EST 2001
Article: 530488 of soc.culture.jewish
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Subject: Re: Excusing Ariel Sharon
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<200220010740260917%[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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This is a really stupid Zionist sympathizing post. As is usual for
Zionists, it takes facts out of context, puts in “facts” completely
undocumentable,
and ignores the real reason for the trouble in Palestine which is solely
the Israeli oppression of the Palestinian people. Only an idiot, or a
cult member or a damned liar could write such garbage.
RLA

Alegro wrote:

> This is a perfect example of Palestinian propaganda. Reading it makes you
> ignore realities of drive-by shootings, mined roads, lynchings of Jews by a
> bloodthirsty mobs, etc. The problem is that the Israeli government keeps
> its army from doing its job of protecting Israelis from the terrorism. Gaza
> Strip is a ceter for terrorist actions against Israelis. Maybe Sharon will
> give the Army a freer arm to deal with the murderers, but I doubt it. No
> other hot spot in the world has so many news media representatives “hungry
> for blood” in such a small, confined area…
> “David Martin” <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
> > My, they will pollute a thread with childish exchanges, won’t they? How
> > about some adult fare?
> >
> > _______ ____ ______
> > / |/ / /___/ / /_ // M I D – E A S T R E A L I T I E S
> > / /|_/ / /_/_ / /\\ Making Sense of the Middle East
> > /_/ /_/ /___/ /_/ \\© 2/19 http://www.MiddleEast.Org
> >
> > News, Information, & Analysis That Governments, Interest Groups,
> > and the Corporate Media Don’t Want You To Know!
> > * * * * * * *
> > IF YOU DON’T GET MER, YOU JUST DON’T GET IT!
> > To receive MER regularly email to [email protected]
> >
> > Gaza Ghetto, Gaza Concentration Camp, Gaza Prison
> >
> > For four months, the Gaza Strip has been effectively isolated from the
> > world.
> > Over 1 million Palestinians are caged in an area of not more than 365km2.
> > Forty-percent
> > of this land is off limits to Palestinians due to the 16 Israeli
> settlements
> > housing 4,500 settlers and numerous military outposts that occupy it.
> >
> > The situation in Gaza is dreadful, and worsening by degrees. To halt
> > Palestinian
> > movement in the Strip, the Israeli military has cut Gaza into four
> sections
> > by erecting road blockades and checkpoints throughout the strip. Israeli
> > tanks
> > line the roadsides, ostensively for the protection of the settlements and
> > settlers
> > and the roads they travel upon.
> >
> > Furthermore, the Israeli army has taken control of Palestinian farmland
> and
> > orchards that lie alongside roads that are used by settlers, and land that
> > surrounds military bases and settlements. Using “security needs” as a
> > pretext
> > for its control of the land, the Israeli military has also destroyed
> > everything
> > on the land.
> >
> > The depth of this destruction needs to be seen to be believed. All
> > vegetation
> > including olive and citrus trees, banana plants, mango groves,
> agricultural
> > sheds, vegetable greenhouses, and palm trees along the roadside from Gaza
> > City
> > to Khan Younis has been decimated. Bulldozer tracks indented in the sand
> > crisscross
> > the land; mounds of sand are dotted around, each covering the remains of
> > uprooted
> > trees and broken branches and the remains of orchards are strewn along the
> > roadside.
> >
> > The destruction of Palestinian homes and the ramshackle sand bag
> > fortifications
> > along the streets is equally shocking. Uninhabitable shells of apartment
> > blocks
> > are a common sight. Any houses that lie near Israeli settlements and
> > military
> > posts have been under constant bombardment by Israeli tanks and heavy
> > weaponry.
> >
> > The Israeli destruction of Palestinian agriculture and housing has ruined
> > the
> > livelihoods of the people and has rendered many homeless. This outright
> > destruction
> > and collective punishment continues unabated until this day. [Source,
> > Palestine
> > Monitor Organization]
> >
> > ———————————-
> > MiD-EasT RealitieS – http://www.MiddleEast.Org
> > Phone: 202 362-5266
> > Fax: 815 366-0800
> > Email: [email protected]
> >
> > Excusing Ariel Sharon
> >
> > Crimes motivated by hate
> > Carry more negative weight,
> > Except when they’re wholesale and vicious
> > And mixed up with reasons of state,
> > Or done for the chosen people,
> > And not for the master race.
> >
> > DC Dave
> >
> > ———
> > DC Dave
> > Author of “America’s Dreyfus Affair, the Case of the Death of Vincent
> > Foster”
> > & “Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression”
> > http://thebird.org/host/dcdave
> > news:alt.thebird
> > Have you seen http://www.fbicover-up.com ?
> > Larry R <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]
> > > efkent-are you a cross dresser, as well as a cross poster?
> > > “efkent” <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > > news:[email protected]
> > > > That’s more than can be said of you. You idiotic vaginal pit. All that
> > is
> > > > inside one is empty space. Just like your head.
> > > > Eugene Kent. A Labor Voice from Ohio. Support the Palestine Intafadat.
> > > > Boycott israel and its White House clone.
> > > >
> > > > Albert Reingewirtz <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > > > news:200220010740260917%[email protected]
> > > > > In article <[email protected]>, rob
> > > > > <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > excuse him also for being a fat pig.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > man hes one big fat muther fucker, bet he has not seen his dick
> for
> > a
> > > > while.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > rob
> > > > >
> > > > > He could see you, dickhead!
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >

From [email protected] Tue Mar 6 16:02:40 EST 2001
Article: 530710 of soc.culture.jewish
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Subject: Re: Excusing Ariel Sharon
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Not to get into a piss fight with a skunk, but the reader, (if there is one)
will note that this sort of response is a variant of “So’s your old man”.
This is the form of response most favored by this poster, since it operates
as a response, but avoids thought and most important reasoned argument.
For if the poster made an attempt at reasoned argument, the flaws, if any,
would be readily apparent ot the reader.
RLA

David Lee Makowsky wrote:

> This is a really stupid anti-semitic post. As is usual for
> anti-semites, it takes facts out of context, puts in “facts”
> completely undocumentable,
> and ignores the real reason for the trouble in Israel which is solely
> the “palestinian?” terrorism against Israel. Only an idiot, or a cult
> member or a damned liar could write such garbage.
>
> In article <[email protected]>,
> Roger Alexander <[email protected]> wrote:
> # This is a really stupid Zionist sympathizing post. As is usual for
> # Zionists, it takes facts out of context, puts in “facts” completely
> # undocumentable,
> # and ignores the real reason for the trouble in Palestine which is solely
> # the Israeli oppression of the Palestinian people. Only an idiot, or a
> # cult member or a damned liar could write such garbage.
> # RLA
> #
> # Alegro wrote:
> #
> # > This is a perfect example of Palestinian propaganda. Reading it makes you
> # > ignore realities of drive-by shootings, mined roads, lynchings of Jews by a
> # > bloodthirsty mobs, etc. The problem is that the Israeli government keeps
> # > its army from doing its job of protecting Israelis from the terrorism. Gaza
> # > Strip is a ceter for terrorist actions against Israelis. Maybe Sharon will
> # > give the Army a freer arm to deal with the murderers, but I doubt it. No
> # > other hot spot in the world has so many news media representatives “hungry
> # > for blood” in such a small, confined area…
> # > “David Martin” <[email protected]> wrote in message
> # > news:[email protected]
> # > > My, they will pollute a thread with childish exchanges, won’t they? How
> # > > about some adult fare?
> # > >
> # > > _______ ____ ______
> # > > / |/ / /___/ / /_ // M I D – E A S T R E A L I T I E S
> # > > / /|_/ / /_/_ / /\\ Making Sense of the Middle East
> # > > /_/ /_/ /___/ /_/ \\© 2/19 http://www.MiddleEast.Org
> # > >
> # > > News, Information, & Analysis That Governments, Interest Groups,
> # > > and the Corporate Media Don’t Want You To Know!
> # > > * * * * * * *
> # > > IF YOU DON’T GET MER, YOU JUST DON’T GET IT!
> # > > To receive MER regularly email to [email protected]
> # > >
> # > > Gaza Ghetto, Gaza Concentration Camp, Gaza Prison
> # > >
> # > > For four months, the Gaza Strip has been effectively isolated from the
> # > > world.
> # > > Over 1 million Palestinians are caged in an area of not more than 365km2.
> # > > Forty-percent
> # > > of this land is off limits to Palestinians due to the 16 Israeli
> # > settlements
> # > > housing 4,500 settlers and numerous military outposts that occupy it.
> # > >
> # > > The situation in Gaza is dreadful, and worsening by degrees. To halt
> # > > Palestinian
> # > > movement in the Strip, the Israeli military has cut Gaza into four
> # > sections
> # > > by erecting road blockades and checkpoints throughout the strip. Israeli
> # > > tanks
> # > > line the roadsides, ostensively for the protection of the settlements and
> # > > settlers
> # > > and the roads they travel upon.
> # > >
> # > > Furthermore, the Israeli army has taken control of Palestinian farmland
> # > and
> # > > orchards that lie alongside roads that are used by settlers, and land that
> # > > surrounds military bases and settlements. Using “security needs” as a
> # > > pretext
> # > > for its control of the land, the Israeli military has also destroyed
> # > > everything
> # > > on the land.
> # > >
> # > > The depth of this destruction needs to be seen to be believed. All
> # > > vegetation
> # > > including olive and citrus trees, banana plants, mango groves,
> # > agricultural
> # > > sheds, vegetable greenhouses, and palm trees along the roadside from Gaza
> # > > City
> # > > to Khan Younis has been decimated. Bulldozer tracks indented in the sand
> # > > crisscross
> # > > the land; mounds of sand are dotted around, each covering the remains of
> # > > uprooted
> # > > trees and broken branches and the remains of orchards are strewn along the
> # > > roadside.
> # > >
> # > > The destruction of Palestinian homes and the ramshackle sand bag
> # > > fortifications
> # > > along the streets is equally shocking. Uninhabitable shells of apartment
> # > > blocks
> # > > are a common sight. Any houses that lie near Israeli settlements and
> # > > military
> # > > posts have been under constant bombardment by Israeli tanks and heavy
> # > > weaponry.
> # > >
> # > > The Israeli destruction of Palestinian agriculture and housing has ruined
> # > > the
> # > > livelihoods of the people and has rendered many homeless. This outright
> # > > destruction
> # > > and collective punishment continues unabated until this day. [Source,
> # > > Palestine
> # > > Monitor Organization]
> # > >
> # > > ———————————-
> # > > MiD-EasT RealitieS – http://www.MiddleEast.Org
> # > > Phone: 202 362-5266
> # > > Fax: 815 366-0800
> # > > Email: [email protected]
> # > >
> # > > Excusing Ariel Sharon
> # > >
> # > > Crimes motivated by hate
> # > > Carry more negative weight,
> # > > Except when they’re wholesale and vicious
> # > > And mixed up with reasons of state,
> # > > Or done for the chosen people,
> # > > And not for the master race.
> # > >
> # > > DC Dave
> # > >
> # > > ———
> # > > DC Dave
> # > > Author of “America’s Dreyfus Affair, the Case of the Death of Vincent
> # > > Foster”
> # > > & “Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression”
> # > > http://thebird.org/host/dcdave
> # > > news:alt.thebird
> # > > Have you seen http://www.fbicover-up.com ?
> # > > Larry R <[email protected]> wrote in message
> # > > news:[email protected]
> # > > > efkent-are you a cross dresser, as well as a cross poster?
> # > > > “efkent” <[email protected]> wrote in message
> # > > > news:[email protected]
> # > > > > That’s more than can be said of you. You idiotic vaginal pit. All that
> # > > is
> # > > > > inside one is empty space. Just like your head.
> # > > > > Eugene Kent. A Labor Voice from Ohio. Support the Palestine Intafadat.
> # > > > > Boycott israel and its White House clone.
> # > > > >
> # > > > > Albert Reingewirtz <[email protected]> wrote in message
> # > > > > news:200220010740260917%[email protected]
> # > > > > > In article <[email protected]>, rob
> # > > > > > <[email protected]gpond.com.au> wrote:
> # > > > > >
> # > > > > > > excuse him also for being a fat pig.
> # > > > > > >
> # > > > > > > man hes one big fat muther fucker, bet he has not seen his dick
> # > for
> # > > a
> # > > > > while.
> # > > > > > >
> # > > > > > >
> # > > > > > > rob
> # > > > > >
> # > > > > > He could see you, dickhead!
> # > > > >
> # > > > >
> # > > >
> # > > >
> # > >
> # > >
> #
>
> —
> There are three types of people in the world. Those that are good at
> math and those that are not.
>
> [email protected]
From [email protected] Tue Mar 6 16:01:43 EST 2001
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From [email protected] Tue Mar 6 16:02:36 EST 2001
Article: 530042 of soc.culture.jewish
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