JBrolin546 writes:
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>The Hohenhausen Guild has had substantial success in bringing together
>Arab, African-American, Asian and White student union groups at
>Universities around the country for the common cause
More lies, Brolin, the hohenhausen guild is a white supremacist group
which, other than a few misfits and skinheads, has accumulated no one.
Look, if you morons want to hang out in your own newsgroups, fine, but all
you will gain from intruding in this one is rejection…
Arlin H. Adams
From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:26:27 PDT 1996
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Date: Wed, 22 May 96 17:33:04 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: @@@@You people are nothing but idiots@@@@@@@@
Lines: 10
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (MMedi13720)
writes:
> How about “Anchors Aweigh” by Sinead
>O’Connor? (Arrgh, that’s a scary thought.)
>
>
Now THAT is truly warped! 🙂
From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:26:28 PDT 1996
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Date: Wed, 22 May 96 22:33:06 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: @@@@You people are nothing but idiots@@@@@@@@
Lines: 8
The subtle wit, the extensive vocabulary, the inclusive philosophy…why
it must be another college undergraduate who just finished finals!
Cheez, oh well, two more weeks and then we’ve got until September when the
universities start handing out free undergraduate accounts again (*sigh*)
Arlin
From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:26:28 PDT 1996
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Date: Wed, 22 May 96 22:48:04 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: When Should the Talking Stop?
Lines: 15
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (PGISSource)
writes:
>It gives the
>Freemen what they claim they want, a sovereign territory. It also
provides
>a good testing ground which could be leased to technology companies and
>might even eventually recover all the money expended and lost by victims.
>Or would this fall into the inhumane treatment clause?
I dunno, Wiz, remember that movie THE MOUSE THAT ROARED…all they’d have
to do then is declare war on the US, lose, and then file for aid to
rebuild their country…sounds like another foreign aid debacle in the
making to me. :->
From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:26:29 PDT 1996
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Date: Thu, 23 May 96 7:33:05 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: When Should the Talking Stop?
Lines: 14
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Daniel Hartung)
writes:
>
>Pssssst. Tom. The local pervert just kidnapped your five-year-old
>daughter and took her across state lines.
>
>Change your opinion?
>
>
pssst, Daniel, the FBI has more than 30 agents! no really! have had for
a while now, you’d be amazed – radios and everything…
From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:26:30 PDT 1996
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Date: Thu, 23 May 96 10:33:42 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: HEH HEH BUNCH OF PARANOID IDIOTS
Lines: 7
In article <8[email protected]>, [email protected] (Wes) writes:
>.like I said before…you
>don’t like it…there’s the back door! see ya!
oh, but Wes, *we* aren’t leaving :->
From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:26:30 PDT 1996
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Date: Thu, 23 May 96 14:18:05 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Freemen soon to be Deadmen
Lines: 8
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Michael
Hollomon, Jr.) writes:
> And, as with all such persons, if
>they *refuse* to come out alive, there’s only one other alternative.
only to the unimaginative or the impatient Michael.
From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:26:31 PDT 1996
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Date: Thu, 23 May 96 14:18:30 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Get used to it…You will lose all your rights sooner or later and there’s
Lines: 29
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Eric) writes:
>
> Whoever wrote this “Get used to it ..”, is extremely ignorant, assumes
>way too much, and is very dangerous. The subject title is very
>offensive and a very bad choice of words.
>
Hi Eric,
All the original poster is doing is attempting to justify his own lack of
moral fiber. You see, He wants to believe that he is helpless – it’s so
much easier than trying to do anything about the current situation.
Unfortunately for him, *we* are doing something. Now that implies that
people *can* change the situation, which in turn shows him up as the lazy
coward he is. Of course he doesn’t like that, so he tries to assuage his
ego by lecturing us on how ‘wrong’ we are.
In the end, when he figures out that his cause is hopeless, he will be
caught in a dichotomy – either he can run away again (just as he’s run
away from his responsibilities in regard to maintaining his own liberty),
which would be admitting we were right – or – he can join us, which would
be tough, because it would be admitting we were right, as well. Should be
interesting, don’t you think?
Best
Arlin
From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:26:32 PDT 1996
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Date: Thu, 23 May 96 14:33:06 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: GUNS GUNS ARE GOOD FOR YOUR HEART!!!
Lines: 19
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (MorleyEd)
writes:
>
>Every one needs guns! HEE HAW!!! A PERFECT WORLD!!!! WOULD HAVE LOTS OF
>GUNS!!!! JUST LIKE BACK IN VIETNAM!!! HEE HAW!!!
Hi again Ed,
A couple more points to ponder:
1. There is no such thing as a perfect world in this life, there’s only
the best we can make of the one we have.
2. In an imperfect world, such as this, defense against tyranny is
essential.
Arlin
From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:26:34 PDT 1996
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Date: Thu, 23 May 96 13:18:27 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: @@@@You people are nothing but idiots@@@@@@@@
Lines: 14
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (JHistorian)
writes:
> And, unless I miss my guess, you and your militaboy brethren have
>not exactly won the hearts and minds of the American people.
not all, yet, but we’re getting there. 🙂
> In other words, PR ain’t you strong suit, is it, Arlin?
Depends on whom I’m playing to, Jim…and to what purpose. But then *I*
have more than *one* area of expertise :->
From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:26:34 PDT 1996
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Date: Thu, 23 May 96 14:18:52 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Pitcavage on Patriot Movement
Lines: 22
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Michael
Hollomon, Jr.) writes:
>That’s pretty tough talk from a “disabled” veteran, Arlin.
It’s a simple numbers game Michael, and the longer we have to work on it,
the better off we’ll be. As far as tough talk, you’ll notice that at no
time in my post did I state that I expected to live through such a
confrontation. My disability limits my mobility somewhat – keeping up
with a unit moving through the woods, while carrying my fair share of the
load, would be nearly impossible. So if and when it comes down to an
armed confrontation, I’ll end up doing my communications thing for my
folks, until the bad guys show up at my door, and then I guess I’ll just
have to exercise the courage of my convictions.
Arlin H. Adams
“Is Life so dear, is Peace so sweet, as to be bought at the price of
chains and slavery?
Forbid it Almighty God! I know not what course others may take, but as
for me, Give Me Liberty, or Give Me Death!” – Patrick Henry
From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:26:35 PDT 1996
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Date: Thu, 23 May 96 14:19:00 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Enough talking with Freeman! Time for action!
Lines: 18
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Michael
Hollomon, Jr.) writes:
>On Mon, 20 May 96 22:18:04 GMT, [email protected] (AHABIZ) wrote:
>
>>2. How many federal agents would you be willing to sacrifice to
>>accomplish this?
>>
>
>Aw, that’s an easy one: As many as it takes.
Hmm, interesting. So you’d be willing to have their blood on your hands
for sending them into an unneccessary dynamic entry situation, simply to
assuage your patience? I take it you don’t know very many people in law
enforcement, eh?
From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:26:36 PDT 1996
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Date: Thu, 23 May 96 14:19:07 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Jesus and Militias
Lines: 19
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (MorleyEd)
writes:
>He would
>have walked on out to the FBI and said “I love you!” Ain’t that the truth
>folks?
Yo! Ed!
Two points to ponder:
1. He was God, which among other things means that stuff like bullets
wouldn’t bother him anyway.
2. WE AREN’T God, which among other things means stuff like bullets WOULD
bother us…
Arlin
From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:26:37 PDT 1996
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Date: Fri, 24 May 96 2:18:04 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Jesus and Militias
Lines: 15
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Walter
Ulrich) writes:
>
>Well, if the whole universe is God then, ipso facto, all the subsets of
the
>universe are parts of God.
honestly Walter, I wasn’t trying to start a theological debate…and the
particular part of the universe that is *me* tends to bleed when the skin
is punctured, you know? sheesh, sorry if you thought my remarks were in
bad taste.
Arlin
From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:26:37 PDT 1996
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Date: Fri, 24 May 96 2:48:14 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Jesus and Militias
Lines: 10
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Janet
L. Littler) writes:
> GOD GAVE YOU A MIND HE EXPECTS YOU TO USE IT!
Absolutely! second the motion!
Arlin
From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:26:38 PDT 1996
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Date: Fri, 24 May 96 3:33:03 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Militiadermy?
Lines: 10
In article <[email protected]>, Fish writes:
>
>By “those responsible” I assume you mean Randy Weaver and Kevin Harris
(Ruby
>Ridge), and David Koresh.
nice troll fish. Are you then suggesting that what the government did at
both Ruby Ridge and Waco were legitimate actions?
From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:26:39 PDT 1996
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Date: Fri, 24 May 96 6:03:03 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Mafia is militia?
Lines: 71
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] writes:
>I have looked in several dictionaries and I can find no definition of
militia that
>fits the paramilitary groups that have orgqnizing in this country. They
>expropriated the term militia to hide beneath the mantle of the 2nd
ammendment ot the
>constitution where they have no right to be.
Interesting. Could you expand a bit on what your perception of us might
be, that conflicts with the more traditional definitions of the word
‘militia’? Also, would you expand on how you came to determine that we
are not covered by the Bill of Rights? I’m not clear on either of these
points from your post.
The definition that best fits these groups is street gangs or organized
>crime.
In what sense? please explain how you came to this conclusion, your
rationale is not clear from this statement.
>It would appear that someone has been reading their history and thinks
they have
>found a way to copy the plan developed by Lenin and followed by
Bolsheviks, fascists,
>and Nazis to use a small party to control a majority government by the
use of
>assasination and fear and the “true believers”.
In what way do we ‘control’ the government? More to the point, I think,
the groups you named were intentionally formed to exert an offensive
revolutionary influence. Our influence may be somewhat revolutionary (at
least by current statist standards) bet we are an inherently defensive,
community based movement. We are not equipped, or indeed motivated, to
fight offensively; thus I wonder how you came to this conclusion.
>It is as if the cripps or the hells angels or the mafia called themselves
>militia and used the 2nd ammendment ot take control of towns and conties
and states.
I don’t understand your analogy here – what “towns and counties and
states” do you believe that the we taken control over? Also, as you wish
to compare us to various criminal organizations, perhaps you could say
what sort of criminal activities you perceive us to be involved in?
>Some militia groups (like the so-called freemen) have become clasicla
racketeers
I think it’s been clear for a long time now that the FM are not, and have
never been associated with us. They are, after all, anarchists, and would
never associate with organizations of our size and complexity. Since you
believe there are other militia organizations acting like “racketeers”
could you please provide an example or two?
>and all militia groups have the potential.
Would you please explain how you have come to this conclusion? On what
criteria, and in what way, do you measure the potential actions of “all
militia groups”?
>We are in danger of losing our liberty is we are not very carefull and
the danger
>is from these gangs who call themselves militia.
Hmm, would you mind explaining how you see this happening? What sort of
loss of liberty do you believe will be caused by us? What facts did you
use in arriving at this conclusion?
puzzled,
Arlin H. Adams
From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:26:40 PDT 1996
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Date: Fri, 24 May 96 2:48:04 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Democracy vrs Freedom
Lines: 29
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:
>The notion that early Americans had easy access to the weapons of war is
a
>popular myth but one not backed up by reality. Actually, military style
>weapons were in very short supply, particularly up to the 1820s or so.
>Shortages were particularly bad in the South and on the frontier, and
>representatives from these areas were always calling on Congress to have
the
>federal government supply them with arms, since they were in such short
>supply.
Ah, but mark, that is NOT the whole story. While firearms in standard
calibers, especially military style (smoothbore) muskets were in fact in
short supply, firearms generally were not. The privately owned firearms
of the day varied between cheap ‘trade guns’ (unreliable, shoddily made
muskets designed for trade with the Native Americans) all the way up to
custom made Pennsylvania Long Rifles. There was no shortage of *personal*
firearms, but as occured at the beginning of the Revolution, military
units were *not* able to equip all of their personnel with standardized
caliber weapons – indeed prior to the shipments of surplus guns from the
French, many militia units remained armed primarily with personal
firearms. The trick here, of course, is that using personal firearms,
usually handmade, required that the military supply a wide variety of
calibers of musket ball, as well as making maintenance in the field almost
impossible. THIS, then, is why there was a constant plea for standardized
military firearms throughout the early years of this country.
From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:26:40 PDT 1996
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militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Fri, 24 May 96 10:18:26 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Jesus and Militias
Lines: 20
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (JHistorian)
writes:
>1. He was God, which among other things means that stuff like bullets
>wouldn’t bother him anyway.
>==========
> Yeah . . . only nails and spears, right?
>
> So, I see that Bible history is NOT one of those ares where you
>claim “expertise,” is it?
Nice try, but as already been made clear by other posters, Jesus proved on
several occaisions that He had the power to control what happened to Him –
calming storms, that sort of thing. The whole point of the Gospels is
that He didn’t *have* to die, but rather *chose* to be sacrificed. That
being said, I am only an amateur theologian..my expertise lies elsewhere.
So Jim, I see Christian theology is NOT one of the areas in which you
claim “expertise” is it?
From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:26:41 PDT 1996
Article: 19774 of misc.activism.militia
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militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Fri, 24 May 96 10:18:41 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: @@@@You people are nothing but idiots@@@@@@@@
Lines: 33
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (JHistorian)
writes:
>>>And, unless I miss my guess, you and your militaboy brethren
>>>have not exactly won the hearts and minds of the American people.
>>>
>>not all, yet, but we’re getting there. 🙂
>==========
> Don’t hold your breath — in case you’ve not been paying attention,
>there has been an increasing frequency in these “you people are idiots”
>messages.
Certainly as our visibility increases, comments both good and bad will
also be seen with increasing frequency. While I *have* been getting
supportive email from several new sources, the only posts I’ve noticed
here that are critical were obviously written by bored, and not overly
well read, university students…not my primary audience in any case.
>>>In other words, PR ain’t you strong suit, is it, Arlin?
>>>
>>>Depends on whom I’m playing to, Jim…and to what purpose.
>>>But then *I* have more than *one* area of expertise :->
>==========
> Do tell! So, tell me, what would that “expertise” be?
y’know Jim, I really thought about what my response here would be, and
what came to me as the most effective would be to simply let you go back
and reconsider my initial post in this thread – asking yourself what
*other* priorities I might have had, and what expertise that might imply.
Mind games Jim, you play ’em, now you get to play ’em.
From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:26:42 PDT 1996
Article: 19775 of misc.activism.militia
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militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Fri, 24 May 96 10:18:48 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Get used to it…You will lose all your rights sooner or later and there’s
Lines: 30
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (JHistorian)
writes:
>All the original poster is doing is attempting to justify his own lack of
>moral fiber.
>==========
> A man who belives he can resolve problems without resorting to a
gun
>is NOT a man who lacks moral fibre, or courage.
true as far as your statement goes, but a man who believes he can solve
ALL of his problems without a gun is a fool, and one who is afraid to face
those problems which require the use of force is a coward.
> I’ll believe that you simplton militiaboys have moral fiber and
>courage when I see you out in the streets getting your asses beaten and
>blasted with water hoses — as did the civil rights marchers — but not
>until then.
Well, don’t hold your breath (where have I heard that before?) – we aren’t
into being victims…most certainly not victims for your entertainment.
> Rather, he is a man who knows that his greatest weapon is his mind.
>
> Pity that you militiaboys have not evolved that far.
uhm, somehow evolution to the point of depending solely on mental
telepathy (or were your refering to telekinesis?) is something I doubt you
have achieved either Jim…
From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:26:42 PDT 1996
Article: 19782 of misc.activism.militia
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Date: Fri, 24 May 96 10:33:06 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: War Veteran Wannabes: the Suicide of
Lines: 21
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (JHistorian)
writes:
>
> Be goddamned glad that there are men and women who will willingly
go
>to fight, and maybe die, so that your puny little ass can sit at home and
>ridicule them.
alright, let’s try this again:
to borrow from Mike’s post: there were about 10,000 medals handed out for
the Grenada invasion, and about 8000 people actually landed on the
island… and that includes the specops folks who were killed
unneccessarily due to improper equipment an a lack of communication
between the various services…now Jim, is your puny ass just going to sit
there and ridicule the truth – that whenever anybody starts shooting
citations start falling from the sky like bird crap? and usually end up
on folks in inverse proportion to the ammount of sacrifice they actually
made?
From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:26:43 PDT 1996
Article: 19801 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Fri, 24 May 96 15:48:03 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Jesus and Militias
Lines: 24
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Walter
Ulrich) writes:
>
>”Bad taste”… naaaw…there’s nothing like a good theological donnybrook
>to get the juices flowing.
🙂 yeah, but considering that we’re discussing points which various
parties accept ON FAITH, it’s a little hard to do the ‘objective observer’
thing, you know?
>But there is a connection in this to militia/freedom/rights issues: The
>”humanists” claim that everything is invented by man, that humans are
>the measure of all things, therefore men can subject other men to man-
>made tyranny and that’s o.k., because it’s all on one level.
I think you’ve got a point here – one of the problems with society as it
currently stands is that there are large numbers of people who neither
believe nor disbelieve – they just avoid the issue entirely…of course
they then have a very difficult time with folks who hold *anything* as an
absolute.
From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:26:44 PDT 1996
Article: 19802 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Fri, 24 May 96 15:48:21 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: The Miracle of the Li
Lines: 12
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (frankenchrist)
writes:
> I agree totally..Government supresses psychedelics,mind-opening drugs.
>They learned the lessons of psychedelics and pot during the
>Vietnam war. Their guinea pigs couldn’t shoot straight and
>turned on to god and pacifism.
uh, not entirely accurate – none of them could really shoot straight,
about 50 percent totally flaked, but the other 50 percent went
uncontrolably psychotic – freaked out, as it were…
From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:26:45 PDT 1996
Article: 19803 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Fri, 24 May 96 15:48:31 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Logic for the Illogical militia…
Lines: 11
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Todd
Lofton) writes:
>Wes ([email protected]) wrote:
>[another example of why one shouldn’t drink alcohol before posting]
>
>It would be nice if you could have a point?
actually Todd, I think it would have been even nicer if his mother hadn’t
been drinking while she was pregnant, y’know?
From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:26:45 PDT 1996
Article: 19804 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Fri, 24 May 96 15:48:38 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Can an unarmed person be a patriot?
Lines: 17
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
(Andrew Wicken) writes:
>
>How about someone who loves their country, and is willing to show that
>love through hard work?
>
>If you’re willing to risk time, reputation or your life for your
>country, then you’re a patriot. It’s one of those grey areas, although
>”my patriotism’s bigger than yours” arguments shouldn’t be encouraged.
Excellent points Andrew! (uh, just for future reference, even the
non-libertarian types in the movement tend not to be ‘statists’ in the
perjorative meaning of the term…)
Arlin Adams
From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:26:46 PDT 1996
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Date: Fri, 24 May 96 16:03:05 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [ NEWS ] KG-BATF agents put family in TERROR
Lines: 17
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:
>Myth #10004455. The Germans had plans drawn up for an invasion, which
they
>didn’t think would be that difficult. They had a wee problem, though;
they
>were fighting several million Soviets at the time.
Myth debunker Debunked (try saying THAT five times real fast!): German
estimates showed that they would lose combat effectiveness of at *least* 6
first line divisions in the invasion and then *still* have to garrison the
place. Having already begun to deal with Tito in Yugoslavia – whose
guerillas were eventually able to tie down 11 divisions in similar
terrain, it was determined that an invasion of Switzerland would be cost
in-effective.
From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:26:47 PDT 1996
Article: 19810 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Fri, 24 May 96 17:33:03 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: ANFO
Lines: 10
In article <8[email protected]>, [email protected] (Dave Cinege)
writes:
>Sure. Just throw it in there……
>Lemme guess, your friends call you stumpy?
aw heck, dave, depending on the quantities he’s working with, he *might*
just become the precursor of a militia space program…er, at least parts
of him might…
From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:26:47 PDT 1996
Article: 19845 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Fri, 24 May 96 17:48:03 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Democracy vrs Freedom
Lines: 20
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:
>
>They weren’t just pleas for “standardized military firearms.” As William
>Henry
>Harrison, governor of Indiana Territory complained (I am quoting from
memory
>here): “Arms are not to be had in this country.”
Exactly – no production facilities, once one left the east coast, and the
only arms available were those personal firearms people had with them.
Gotta remember that prior to Eli Whitney coming up with a way of producing
standardized muskets with interchangable (uh, at least theoretically)
parts, firearms were the work of individual craftsmen, who were fairly few
and far between. Because of this, no one was going to sell their personal
firearms to the government, and there was no way that the few gunsmiths
(whose individual production might only amount to 3 or 4 firearms per
month) would ever have been able to equip a large military force.
From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:26:48 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Fri, 24 May 96 18:03:21 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Christian Identity
Lines: 24
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (frankenchrist)
writes:
> Boys who misbehave get whipped.
unless they do the whipping. Those of us who do not see the government in
a paternal role, but rather in the role of armed thief, aren’t
misbehaving, simply exercising our Right of Self-defense
>It turns out that the
>suspected OKC bomber may have belonged to a militia..How else
>do you expect the government to respond?
by flaking and ignoring the presence of John Doe #2, since *he* didn’t
conveniently get caught for speeding…
> They can only go so
>far with the drugwar. Now that the cat’s out of the bag with
>militias they have a new course of action,yet another excuse to
>ban guns and shred the Bill of Rights.
they needed an excuse? c’mon frankie, they were going to do that anyway –
without any excuse…
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Date: Fri, 24 May 96 17:48:18 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Mafia is militia?
Lines: 14
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Mo10Cav) writes:
> Dammit, HABIZ, I told you to quit doing that.
Cheez, I’m sorry Mike, I’ll check the latch better next time… 🙂
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Date: Sat, 25 May 96 3:48:03 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [ NEWS ] KG-BATF agents put family in TERROR
Lines: 44
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:
>>Myth debunker Debunked (try saying THAT five times real fast!): German
>>estimates showed that they would lose combat effectiveness of at *least*
6
>>first line divisions in the invasion and then *still* have to garrison
the
>>place. Having already begun to deal with Tito in Yugoslavia – whose
>>guerillas were eventually able to tie down 11 divisions in similar
>>terrain, it was determined that an invasion of Switzerland would be cost
>>in-effective.
>
>Temporarily losing the combat effectiveness of six divisions in World War
II is
>a pittance by itself; Germany easily could have invaded Switzerland. It
was,
>as I said, the fact that they were fighting the Soviets and so could not
spare
>any avoidable losses that was the key factor–not the military efficiency
of
>the Swiss, or lack thereof.
>
you need to go back and re-read my response mark – as I pointed out it was
a combination of the loss of combat effectiveness (which means projected
casualties of at least 25-33%) AND the neccessity to provide for a *LARGE*
occupation force (that’s what the example of Yugoslavia was about) that
made them change their mind. By the time the Germans had launched their
eastern front campaign they were well aware of how short of troops they
really were. The withdrawal of six, already undersized, combat divisions
would indeed have been a serious drain on their already over-stretched
manpower resources, and a garrison force equivalent to that required for
Yugoslavia would have forced them to withdraw units from the already
undermanned ‘western wall’ defenses along the coast.
In turn, what made these losses, and the need for such a garrison force
inevitable was a combination of the Swiss terrain and the Swiss military.
To acknowledge that the Germans would have suffered unacceptable
casualties *without* acknowledging the agency that would have caused
those casualties is, at best, a lapse in logic. Unless you believe they
were all going to die of frost bite, the primary concern of the Germans in
this effort would have been the efficiency of the Swiss military.
From [email protected] Mon May 27 15:29:27 PDT 1996
Article: 19956 of misc.activism.militia
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Date: Sun, 26 May 96 15:18:03 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [ NEWS ] KG-BATF agents put family in TERROR
Lines: 24
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (David L Evens)
writes:
>
>Mark T Pitcavage ([email protected]) wrote:
>: In article <[email protected]>, X288FILES
wrote:
>: >
>: >why did hitler not invade switzerland ???
>: >ans. cause every one had a machine gun
>
>: Myth #10004455. The Germans had plans drawn up for an invasion, which
they
>
>: didn’t think would be that difficult. They had a wee problem, though;
they
>
>: were fighting several million Soviets at the time.
>
>Indeed that is a myth. Good of you to mark your myths as such, Mark.
Well, you know, David, with mark it’s always a hit or myth situation when
it comes to dealing with military concepts….
From [email protected] Mon May 27 15:29:28 PDT 1996
Article: 19957 of misc.activism.militia
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Posted-Date: 26 May 1996 11:04:28 -0400
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Date: Sun, 26 May 96 15:18:11 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Agents, pitman, assassination and war
Lines: 15
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (RYK an1) writes:
>But the question is what do we do with the enemy if such a situation
>occured?
>Do we exile them, release them, or shoot them.
>
>I just cannot see the feasibility of releasing them back in to society.
>Maybe I am wrong but that leaves only two choices and neither one of them
>are very nice.
Hmm, while I seriously doubt the hardcore pseudo-liberals would *want* to
live in our sort of society, I can understand your concern. You might
check out Jerry Pournelle’s OATH OF FEALTY – he has some interesting ideas
for alternative forms of punishment that you might find interesting.
From [email protected] Mon May 27 15:29:30 PDT 1996
Article: 19962 of misc.activism.militia
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Posted-Date: 26 May 1996 11:20:04 -0400
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Date: Sun, 26 May 96 15:33:05 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Freemen or Wooses?
Lines: 102
Hi Roger,
Actually, we aren’t that far apart on this issue.
>My thoughts are this: I’m tired of the gov’t pussyfooting around
>with these scofflaws. My tax dollars are being wasted playing
>the waiting game, because of fear of bad publicity.
It has gotten tedious, certainly, though I don’t think the feds are
functioning solely on the fear of bad publicity. It has long been a tenet
of the American criminal justice system that it is better to spend money
than to kill people. Witness the number of ‘life’ sentences handed out
every year. Someone so sentenced is effectively removed from society, for
the rest of her/his life, at tax payer expense. Certainly, were one to
look at the problem only in terms of cost-effectiveness, killing them
would be the cheaper option. But we do not, usually, do so. Rather, we
spend the money to keep them in prison, on the principle that it’s better
to do that than kill them. I think all we’re really talking about here is
whether the same general principle applies in this situation. I believe
it does.
> These so-
>called “patriots” are nothing but common criminals,
Well, I don’t consider them ‘patriots’ at all, just people who have been
accused of defrauding their neighbors…not a very acceptable practice in
my book, and certainly not legal.
> and not very
>bright ones either! They must have been brain-dead to think that
>they could get away with printing their wonderful bogus checks!
hmm, naive might be a better term. Not realizing that the entire legal
system has become so convoluted that even regular practitioners can rarely
be certain of much, they attempted to interpret the law in their own
favor, without regard to the bureaucratic system specifically set up to
prevent people from doing such things. More importantly, in my book, they
were also hypocritical – decrying the government’s ability to generate
financial instruments, while at the same time attempting to generate their
own…sorry, but THAT just don’t cut it either…y’know?
>They have broken the law of the land.
That certainly *seems* to be the case – we wont know for sure until the
trial.
> If they have an ounce of
>courage, they would come out and face their accusers in a court
>of law.
The problem, of course, is that they are anarchists…the sorts of folks
who wish the rest of the known universe would just go away (uh, except for
those nice government checks, of course 😉 ) . They seem to have backed
themselves into a philosophical corner they aren’t bright enough to reason
their way out of again…still, I’m not sure even advanced stupidity
warrants the death penalty.
> If they refuse to do that, they should be perfectly
>honest, and be prepared to pay the ultimate price! To me,
>if they truly had the courage of their so-called convictions,
>they would be ready to lay down their lives for their beliefs.
In all, honest, judging by their actions, and what I’ve read of their
writings, I’d expect their leadership to commit suicide, one way or the
other.
>Likewise, they would want their progeny out of harm’s way, so
>that they could grow up and carry on the “good fight”! Ergo,
>the wives should go out with the children, to ensure someone
>is left alive to raise them.
well as a libertarian, I’d have to insist that a parent (gender
irrelevant) be allowed to survive with the children – we don’t
discriminate by gender – but other than that, I would certainly say your
suggestion makes sense to me.
>Additionally, it wasn’t they government that they were bilking
>woith the worthless checks, etc., but fellow ordinary citizens!
>Where’s the honor in that?
Exactly. There was no honor in that.
> Furthermore, the one fine Freman,
>managed to stifle his hatred of ZOG enough, to accept over
>$600,000 in taxpayer-funded farm subsidies!! My, my what a
>real rebel!!
like I said, except for those government checks…:-)
>These charlatans should be given 24 hours to come out with their
>hands up. If they don’t comply; then they pay whatever price
>is necessary to extricate them from the property that they are
>illegally occupying.
okay, and if the price is simply waiting? or is *that* price too high for
you? See my discussion of the criminal justice system, above.
I’ll be interested to read your thoughts on this.
Arlin
From [email protected] Mon May 27 15:29:30 PDT 1996
Article: 19963 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sun, 26 May 96 15:33:15 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: 105 mm howitzers
Lines: 14
In article <8[email protected]>, [email protected] (John Luebbers
) writes:
>
>There are reported to be 8 to 10 105 mm howqitzers in position near
>justus Township Mt. These will be used against freedom fighters in
>defense of the freemen.
uh, John, did anybody say where those howitzers came from? or who was
manning them? Neither the FBI nor the Marshalls have any artillery, not
even mortars. Sources, please?
Arlin Adams
From [email protected] Mon May 27 15:29:31 PDT 1996
Article: 19966 of misc.activism.militia
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Posted-Date: 26 May 1996 11:22:48 -0400
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Date: Sun, 26 May 96 15:33:36 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: ALERT
Lines: 20
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (JHistorian)
writes:
>Thus spake Arlin Adams:
>
>>
>>JHistorian wrote:
>>> Quien sabe? However, he’s one of yours — a militiaboy.
>>
>>Why do you resort to calling people “boy?” Some kind of
>>resentment over having the word applied to you, or just
>>cheap shots as a substitute for logic?
>==========
>
> A substitute for logic, of course.
uh Jim, that wasn’t me you just quoted. I don’t have that post on my hard
drive anymore, but that was somebody else responding to your response to
me…might want to check that.
From [email protected] Mon May 27 15:29:32 PDT 1996
Article: 19969 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sun, 26 May 96 15:34:06 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: War Veteran Wannabes: the Suicide of
Lines: 10
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Tim Hill)
writes:
>War Veteran Wannabees…hmmmm..aren’t they the guys who like to dress up
>in cammies and play soldier in the woods?
no, tim, they’re folks like you with no military experience, who claim to
understand military subjects…sorry, but you *really* set yourself up for
that one.
From [email protected] Mon May 27 15:29:33 PDT 1996
Article: 19970 of misc.activism.militia
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Posted-Date: 26 May 1996 11:30:58 -0400
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sun, 26 May 96 15:34:13 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Articles of Faith (was: Jesus and Militias)
Lines: 34
WARNING: THEOLOGICAL DEBATE FOLLOWS, IF YOU AIN’T INTERESTED, YOU MIGHT
WANT TO SKIP THIS ONE.
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Joseph T.
Adams) writes:
>Well, here we have one of the inherent contradictions of modern
>society.
>
>If all truth is relative, then it is not possible to be objective.
>One cannot help but view things with the biases inherent in one’s own
>perspective if truth is relative.
>
>If truth is *not* relative, then all of us cannot be right. Some of
>us – all of us, perhaps – are objectively wrong.
Hi Joe,
I guess I wasn’t as clear as I might have been. What I was trying to say
was that, in the end, ALL religious beliefs are based on acts of Faith.
Now Faith is inherently a supra-rational act – it is going BEYOND provable
facts and acknowledging that something *not* directly provable to an
objective observer exists. If it were objectively provable, then (as with
gravity) there would be no doubt in anyones’ mind, but there would also be
no need for Faith. Because all religious beliefs hinge on Articles of
Faith, it is at best a futile to attempt to debate them…either party to
the debate can claim different Articles of Faith, and there is no way for
the other party to disprove them.
Best
Arlin
From [email protected] Mon May 27 15:29:34 PDT 1996
Article: 19975 of misc.activism.militia
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Posted-Date: 26 May 1996 12:12:41 -0400
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Date: Sun, 26 May 96 16:18:04 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: 105 mm howitzers
Lines: 12
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Jolly
Roger) writes:
>Drop 50, fire for effect, shake ‘n’ bake.
>Uff Da.
Uff Da??????? Jolly you been hangin’ around dem norskis to long I tink,
eh?
Arlin
who grew up in a place where people actually talk like that 🙂
From [email protected] Mon May 27 15:29:34 PDT 1996
Article: 19982 of misc.activism.militia
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Posted-Date: 26 May 1996 14:11:19 -0400
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sun, 26 May 96 18:18:04 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Jewish Conspiracy Proof? –>>
Lines: 83
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (John
Dulaney) writes:
> You speak as being a part of the corrupt system that has destroyed
>our nation’s educational standards.
No, John, I speak from personal experience. I am not a member of the NEA
– I refused to join either teacher’s union because of their anti-gun and
anti-liberty philosophies. Of course this means that I’m not even allowed
to teach in many ‘closed shop’ public school systems, but that is simply
one of the sacrifices one makes if one chooses to stand on one’s
principles.
I’m also a Libertarian, and a militia member, to claim that I am ‘part of
the system’ is not only absurd, but irrational. If I had wished to remain
part of the system, I could have done so by fighting the forced medical
retirement which put me out of civil service…you see besides being
partially disabled, the government wasn’t real happy with the fact that I
didn’t just play along with things. I dare say that not only have I been
fighting for truth a lot longer than you have, in a number of different
venues, but I have also had access to significantly more hard information
than you ever shall. My opinions are based on my observations and
experiences, nothing more or less.
>Of what possible value do your lies
>have when the entire world knows the truth?
Now I realize that you’ve led a rather sheltered life, John, else you
wouldn’t have fallen for that anti-semitic nonsense to begin with; so let
me explain something to you. There are two things you should NEVER call a
libertarian, without hard evidence to support them – Never accuse a
libertarian of cheating, and never, ever, accuse a libertarian of lying.
Because we do not function under ‘implied’ or ‘inherited’ contracts,
social or otherwise, the only contracts we abide by are those on which we
give our word. Our word is our bond. My word is my bond. You have
falsly impugned my word, and in doing so you have falsly impugned my
honor. I shall remember that.
> You ARE the problem we face and getting YOU and people like YOU
>OUT of the system is the battle we face today.
uh, John, yo! wake up guy! I’m not IN the system…you obviously haven’t
been paying attention to anything I or anyone else writes on this
newsgroup. Your ignorance does you grave discredit, though I doubt you
realize that fact.
> I already did.
> The entirety of the rest of your posting was a repitition of the
> same NEA text you are all ordered to push out.
Actually, John, none of the texts I used were from the NEA, my general
discription of how Whole Language works came from a Canadian textbook, as
a matter of fact. The historical data I presented concerning the failure
of the Look-Say methodology came from a professor friend who actually
worked on the development project at the University of Arizona. No one
‘ordered’ me to say anything. You, sir, haven’t a clue what you are
talking about.
> Problem is we’ve all read these lies a thousand times.
> Since you are not allowed to diverge from these lies you are
> stuck.
well, no, I’m not ‘stuck’ as the one thing I wont diverge from is the
truth. Guess my little addendum about lack of parental discipline really
struck a nerve, eh? Funny thing, though, I got several email messages
>from fellow militia members who had noted the same lack of discipline and,
in fact attributed it to the same source. Funny how that worked out,
don’t you think? or do you now believe that your vaunted super-duper
conspiracy is playing mind control games on militia members? If that’s
the case, then how can you be certain they also aren’t playing mind
control games on you?
> Get deprogrammed and join the Human Race!
The only person who programs me, is me. As far as being part of the human
race, John, I most certainly am. Since I don’t live with your paranoid
racist fantasies, I associate with *all* types of humans. Thus, one might
say that I’m actually more a part of the human race than you are. 🙂
May you have done to you as you do to others.
Arlin H. Adams
From [email protected] Mon May 27 15:29:35 PDT 1996
Article: 19985 of misc.activism.militia
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Posted-Date: 26 May 1996 15:23:52 -0400
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sun, 26 May 96 19:33:03 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Get used to it…You will lose all your rights sooner or later and there’s
Lines: 189
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Michael
Hollomon, Jr.) writes:
>
>Actually, Arlin, I am fully aware of my power to change things of
>which I do not approve. However, unlike you militists, my weapon is
>reason, not treason.
ah, so tell me Michael, if the point comes where you find that reason no
longer prevails, what will you do then? What do you see as your options,
should the government’s actions overstep *your* tolerance limits?
> I actually happen to think that my government is
>a pretty damn good one. No, its not perfect. But it’s certainly not
>the evil empire you militists try to make it out to be.
You certainly have the right to make that judgement if you wish.
Obviously we disagree, as our standards are somewhat different.
>And its
>certainly a hell of a lot better than any of you weekend warriors
>could do.
ah, and on what criteria do you base that judgement? You seem to know
almost nothing of who we are, what we stand for, or what we intend to do –
one might question whether you even have sufficient information to form a
valid opinion in this matter.
>>Unfortunately for him, *we* are doing something.
>
>Yes, in fact you *are* doing something. Let’s see…stockpiling
>military weapons,
and ammunition, and food, and medical supplies, and other survival needs.
I’m sorry you have problems with our self-sufficiency. Does it bother you
that you may be more dependent on the system than we are, or is it that we
are simply different?
> proposing the violent overthrow of my elected
>government,
no, that’s not true. We are proposing armed defense of ourselves and our
communities against possible future depredations by the federal
bureaucracy…as far as any elected officials owned by you, well since I
don’t know exactly who you have in your pocket, it’s hard for me to answer
that one.
>engaging in criminal behavior
you have knowledge of criminal behavior on the part of the Constitutional
Militias? I challenge you to produce any evidence supporting this claim.
> and keeping the best
>equipped LEO’s in the world at bay with your massive weapons stockpile
>(“Freemen”),
hmm, you’re a bit confused here – no militia unit is keeping “LEO’s at
bay”. As for the FM, they are not now, nor have they ever been part of
the CM. They’re anarchists, Michael, they wouldn’t even think of
associating with us. Now what is this “massive weapons stockpile” you’re
talking about, anyway?
>commiting terrorist acts against domestic targets and
>causing the deaths of innocent women, children and men (“McVeigh”).
again, you’re more than a bit confused. First off, the Nichols and
McVeigh travelling side show hasn’t been convicted of anything yet…or
don’t you hold with the concept of innocent until proven guilty? In any
case, McVeigh had been THROWN OUT of militias in two seperate states (MI
and AZ). He was not one of us, nor did any of us support the OKC bombing.
But let’s carry your guilt by association to a logical parallel – in the
last several years there have been a number of members of both major
political parties who have gone to jail for felonies – everything from
embezzlement to having sex with minors. Do you belong to one of those
political parties, Michael? If so, are you then involved in embezzlement
or sex with minors? Sauce for the goose, Michael.
>Yep, that’s something alright. And you’re right it is unfortunate
>for, and for every other law-abiding American citizen.
We are law-abiding American citizens, Michael, in fact although you don’t
know it, you probably see us on the street, everyday.
>>Now that implies that
>>people *can* change the situation, which in turn shows him up as the
lazy
>>coward he is.
>
>Lazy coward, am I? Because I choose not to take up arms against my
>own government?
Actually, considering what you’ve written above, no, I’d say you were more
on the order of misinformed, and perhaps overly idealistic. You see, you
provide more data, and my analysis changes.
>Or because I realize that reasonable restrictions on
>some of my freedoms are not the first steps in a secret government
>plot to turn this nation into Orwell’s _1984_?
now *that* I would classify as downright foolish. If you choose to
consider the government your master, I suppose that’s your right; but
please expect no sympathy here.
>>Of course he doesn’t like that, so he tries to assuage his
>>ego by lecturing us on how ‘wrong’ we are.
>>
>>In the end, when he figures out that his cause is hopeless, he will be
>>caught in a dichotomy – either he can run away again (just as he’s run
>>away from his responsibilities in regard to maintaining his own
liberty),
>>which would be admitting we were right – or – he can join us, which
would
>>be tough, because it would be admitting we were right, as well. Should
be
>>interesting, don’t you think?
>
>Um, not quite. Look, I know that you are so indoctrinated into the
>manly men’s “patriot” movement that you can’t see the forest for the
>trees.
LOL! man, I sure wouldn’t let the women in *my* group hear you refer to
the movement that way, if I were you. It’s nice that you admit your
sexist bias up front like that, though.
> But, trust me Arlin, you are dreaming. It is your, not my,
>cause which is hopeless.
because you say so? on what do you base this analysis?
> You guys haven’t a snowball’s chance in hell
>of taking over this country.
oh, that’s okay, we’ll be quite satisfied if we simply preserve our
communities, our way of life, and our essential liberties…no need to
take over the whole shooting match…. Please remember Michael, that *we*
are *defensive* organizations, it is portions of the fe(de)ral government
which have become offensive.
> What you will end up doing (if your
>bravado ever extends past posting to this newsgroup – which I highly
>doubt)
*sigh* Michael, you’ve already proven your judgement to be faulty, and
your penchant for inaction to be almost total, so why should I be
concerned about your opinion of me? Your inability to distinguish between
courage and bravado, between honor and hot air, brings dishonor only upon
yourself.
>is getting yourself killed and giving the government the
>support it needs to *really* limit, if not abolish, the right of
>private citizens to keep and bear arms.
They are already in the process of “really” limiting RKBA. Whether you’ve
felt the direct impact of those limitations or not, does not make them any
less real. Indeed many of us are working quite hard to remove support for
the government’s anti-gun policies, through both social and political
channels…and slowly, we are succeeding. Which scares you more, Michael,
the fact that we are willing to die for our rights, or the fact that we
are becoming a *political* force to be reckoned with?
>And by the way, you need not post a reply to this message. We *all*
>know what it would say. In fact, I’ll save you the time and effort
>and post it for you:
Why Michael, I’m surprised, so proud of your bigotry that you want to
demonstrate it on the internet? how interesting.
>”No commie boy! It is *you* who are dreaming. Me and my gun buddies
>are gonna defeat you and your jackbooted LEO’s. I mean what I say!
>I’m not just posting big bad messages to this newsgroup. We’re making
>real plans to take real action with our real guns and then we’re
>gonna…yadda yadda yadda…
Well, as we can all see, your attempt at humor exhibits only your obvious
misconceptions about who I am, who the members of the militias are, and
what it is we’re actually doing. This was actually quite helpful,
Michael, as we are rarely able to find an anti-militia bigot who is as
sexist, as foolish, and as computer literate as you seem to be…through
your excellent negative example you’ve done us a service, thankyou!
Arlin H. Adams
From [email protected] Mon May 27 15:29:36 PDT 1996
Article: 19987 of misc.activism.militia
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Posted-Date: 26 May 1996 15:35:59 -0400
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Date: Sun, 26 May 96 19:48:05 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Get used to it…You will lose all your rights sooner or later and there’s
Lines: 14
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Michael
Hollomon, Jr.) writes:
>>
>>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (JHistorian)
>>writes:
>
>I know you hope to go out in a blaze of glory with six guns a firin’
>and then ride off into the sunset on your trusty steed
Why Michael, I must really be getting to you, conscience starting to
bother you a bit? here you are spreading your prejudice across two
seperate posts…how interesting.
From [email protected] Mon May 27 15:29:37 PDT 1996
Article: 19988 of misc.activism.militia
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Posted-Date: 26 May 1996 15:46:34 -0400
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Date: Sun, 26 May 96 19:48:21 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Jewish Conspiracy Proof? –>>
Lines: 237
Now, John, you didn’t think that hiding this underneath an ad for your web
site was really going to keep me from finding it, did you? Shame on you,
if you did.
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (John
Dulaney) writes:
>In September 1993, Americans were stunned to learn that half the
>adult population – some 90 million Americans – have such poor
>literacy skills that they can scarcely cope with the demands of our
>high-tech economy. That was the finding of the U.S. Department of
>Education’s $14-million survey of adult literacy in the U.S. The
yep. there are some quibbles concerning the exact manner in which they
measured literacy in some instances, but overall, that’s true.
>question is: How could so many Americans – who had spent more time
>in school than any previous generation, on whom more money had been
>spent than in any previous generation – emerge from their education
>so poorly equipped in basic literacy skills?
The answer to this question is, of course that there are a number of
factors which have effected literacy rates. These include such things as
social and cultural upheavals, which have had long term effects on the
stability of family structures, the fact that in many instances (parent
gets a promotion, job gets moved to a different state, etc) children
change schools every two or three years, often moving between widely
disparate educational systems, the lack of education resulting from lack
of discipline (which I noted in a previous post), cultural discontinuity
between teaching materials and the cultural and social environment in
which the students live, the list is actually quite long.
There is also an unstated assumption in that question that throwing money
at educational problems somehow is supposed to be meaningful, this is
obviously not the case, and the study certainly provides evidence to
support the fact that money alone will NEVER solve the problems of public
educaton in this country. When you read this propaganda of your’s John,
you need to watch for unstated assumptions like that.
>Blumenfeld answers that question in his no-holds-barred examination
>of the decline of literacy in America and the deliberate dumbing
>down of its people.
Pardon me for asking, John, but as a publicly espoused antisemite, how
comfortable are you with drawing support from a Jewish intellectual like
Dr. Blumenfeld? I find this most interesting – incongruous and
hypocritical as well, mind you, but interesting nonetheless.
> He puts the blame squarely on the shoulders of
>the educational leaders who decided early in this century to change
>the purpose of education from its traditional academic function to
>a radical social one.
Now you see, John, this is one of those little propaganda discontinuities
you need to watch for – the writer starts out talking about the current
generation, and then skips merrily back 90 years to the turn of the
century. Think for a moment, John, if the educational policies espoused
at the turn of the century had been as debilitating as this author would
have you believe, would they not have had a more immediate effect? Would
not their effects have been felt throughout that time frame, rather than
simply ‘materializing’ in the public school system over the last few
years? Logic, John, it’s what’s missing here, and what you need to apply
rigorously to spot this kind of propagandistic nonsense.
> It was John Dewey and his colleagues who
>decided that high literacy was an obstacle to their progressive
>agenda and that, therefore, the teaching of reading had to be
>changed to produce a more socially desirable result.
Actually, that’s about half right. John Dewey and his colleagues most
certainly *did* advocate, and make, modifications to the educational
system. However they did NOT do this from a socialist or ‘progressive’
perspective, but rather looking to support *industry*. Dewey was very
upfront about this too – he specifically stated that his educational
reforms were intended ‘to produce good workers for industry’. In point
of fact, John, Dewey, was a proto-fascist, *not* a socialist. Now either
the author is lying, or he hasn’t a clue and has never actually read any
of Dewey’s writings. In either case, his analysis is factually wrong.
> The results
>for the nation have been disastrous.
Actually, the vaunted traditional textbook method of instruction, the one
that you espouse in place of whole language, was the result of the Dewey
reforms. While I do NOT believe that was neccessarily the best thing that
could have happened to public education, it’s absolutely astounding that
the author could so blatantly contradict her/himself. Utterly amazing.
>
>Whole Language is the latest manifestation of that progressive
>plan.
You see John, this is another one of those propaganda techniques, where
the author makes an unsupported (and unsupportable) assumption, states it
as fact, and then moves on, in the hope that no one will notice.
> It has not only replaced intensive phonics in the classroom
This is not true. The phonics instruction in whole language classrooms,
through the use of word sounds, continues in all classes throughout the
school day. it is therefore a very intense methodology. What whole
language *has* replaced has been the teaching of isolated phonics lessons,
which had no relationship to anything else the students were learning, and
which was restricted to one period per day. The traditional textbook
method, besides being less effective, was also decidedly less intense.
>but also the old Dick-and Jane Look-say reading programs.
well I should hope so. The whole point of whole language pedagogy is to
get the kids functioning as fluent readers of real world print media just
as quickly as possible. And it does – again by practicing reading skills
throughout the school day rather than in one isolated class period.
>a whole new dimension to the reading process: subjectivism and
>deconstructionism.
uh, actually that would be *two* dimensions, John, apparently the author
can’t count, either. In any case, this is yet another example of the
half-truths of which he is so fond. Reading is inherently a *subjective*
process, this isn’t introduced by whole language, merely acknowledged. An
easy proof of the subjective nature of reading is the current debate over
the 2nd Ammendment. Obviously, if reading produced some sort of
absolutely objective knowledge, then everyone who read it would interpret
it the same way…which is obviously not the case. Instead, a variety of
*subjective* interpretations are espoused by different people, because, in
point of fact reading requires subjective interpretation by the reader.
It’s also obvious that the author was presuming that no one reading this
would understand the difference between constructivism and
deconstructionism. Deconstructionism is a post-modern text interpretation
method in which the analyst literally ‘deconstructs’ the text, through a
series of processes which are really irrelevant here, since they are NOT a
part of whole language. Constructivism, on the other hand, is simply the
fact that we take what we read, integrate it with what we already know,
and that’s how we *construct* new knowledge. As you can see,
constructivism is nothing more than applied common sense. As you can also
see, the writer would have found criticizing common sense to be
counterproductive, and thus substituted a completely unrelated concept.
Propaganda techniques again, John, see?
> In addition, it has become an integral part of
>Outcome-Based Education.
Actually OBE, which is nothing more than an unusable program put together
by a bunch of governmental bureaucrats desperately attempting to appear as
though they are doing *something* to improve education, has tried to piggy
back on the success of whole language for the better part of this decade.
Funny thing, though, while whole language is always effective, OBE never
is…interesting how the government does that, don’t you think?
>Thus, it is a far more lethal form of
>pedagogy than anything that has proceeded it.
The only ‘lethal’ pedagogies of which I am aware in this country, are
those in courses taught by the military. John, this is a nonsense
sentence – a ‘lethal pedagogy’ would either be one in which the students
learned to kill, or one in which the students *were* killed…even public
schools haven’t gotten to that point yet! 🙂 [note for John – that was
a joke!] Here the author is simply trying to play on your emotions, with
yet another unsupported, and unsupportable assertion, stated in a factual
manner.
>
>Blumenfeld writes:
>
>Whole Language educators are perpetrating a fraud. They are telling
>parents that whole language is a new and better way of teaching
>children to read when, in reality, it is nothing of the sort. For
>all intents and purposes, whole language is a way of preventing
>children from becoming fluent, accurate phonetic readers.
This is a propaganda technique called “The Big Lie” John. You may be
familiar with it as it was practiced by your fellow anti-semites in
Germany during WWII. The truth is that all research shows whole language
produces a higher percentage of fluent readers than the traditional
textbook-in-isolation methods. In other words, the author is lying by
stating the EXACT OPPOSITE of the truth, and pretending that this is some
great secret…of course there was a lot of that in the first post you put
up…so perhaps you can remember seeing other examples of this nonsense
before, eh?
You will also note that the author subtly juxtaposes two educational terms
in an attempt to blur a major distinction. Fluent readers are folks who
read like adults. Phonetic readers are those children in an early stage
of reading where they are still sounding out the words. You can tell late
stage phonetic readers by watching their mouth and throat – they’ll
subvocalize the word sounds, in order to ‘hear them’ sufficiently to check
for accuracy. Fluent readers do not do this. Rather, they have moved
beyond having to sound out the words one syllable at a time, and have
moved on to the stage of being able to scan text interpret it internally,
thus reading much faster than would be possible under a sound-it-all-out
system. Fluent readers, read like adults. In attempting to juxtapose the
terms fluent reader and phonetic reader, the propagandist is merely
working to insure your confusion, nothing else.
> It is a
>new way of creating reading disability, academic confusion and
>learning frustration, a new way of crippling a child’s linguistic
>development.”
There is no valid research to support any of these accusations. In point
of fact the research available shows just the reverse to be true. Because
the traditional textbook methodology either partially or completely shuts
out several types of learners, (remember the kids in high school who could
barely read, but could do wonderful things in shop class, or with musical
instruments? I suggest that you might want to read Howard Gardener’s
book MULTIPLE INTELLIGENCES, to find out why) the tradtional textbook
methodology increases reading problems and *decreases* the likelihood of
producing fluent readers. ‘academic confusion’ is a nonsense term,
although we’ve already seen your author has no aversion to misuse of
words, as long as they sound impressive. Whole language provides
opportunities to approach topics from a variety of directions, thus
actually decreasing the students’ frustration level; and finally
linguistic development is a psycho-social function, of which the
educational process is only one contributing factor. In other words,
John, the author is clueless and assumes that you will be too, otherwise
you wouldn’t buy into his nonsense.
>
>And Blumenfeld proves everything he says with thorough, eye-opening
>documentation.
No, John, actually he doesn’t. His entire book is written in the same
manner as this excerpt I’ve just critiqued – it uses standard propaganda
techniques including the Big Lie, misuse of terms, misdefinition of terms,
and nonsense terms, in an attempt to build a case out of thin air. Once
you get rid of all of his propaganda, that’s still all you have left –
thin air.
Wake up John! You’ve been had!
Arlin H. Adams M.Ed., NRA Life Member, Militia member, and Libertarian
Curmudgeon.
From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:26:26 PDT 1996
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Date: Wed, 22 May 96 16:03:35 GMT
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Subject: Re: Farrakhan on way to empowerment
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