Clayton E. Cramer is a software engineer with a
telecommunications manufacturer in Northern California. His
first book, By The Dim And Flaring Lamps: The Civil War
Diary of Samuel McIlvaine, was published in 1990. For The
Defense of Themselves And The State: The Original Intent &
Judicial Interpretation of the Right To Keep And Bear Arms
will be published by Greenwood/Praeger Press in 1994.
NOTES
Thomas N. Ingersoll, “Free Blacks in a Slave Society:
New Orleans, 1718-1812”, William And Mary Quarterly, 48:2
[April, 1991], 178-79.
Daniel H. Usner, Jr., Indians, Settlers, & Slaves in a
Frontier Exchange Economy: The Lower Mississippi Valley
Before 1783, (Chapel Hill, N.C.: University of North
Carolina Press, 1992), 139, 165, 187.
Michael C. Meyer and William L. Sherman, The Course of
Mexican History, 4th ed., (New York, Oxford University
Press: 1991), 216.
Ingersoll, 192-200. Benjamin Quarles, The Negro in the
Making of America, 3rd ed., (New York, Macmillan Publishing:
1987), 81.
Theodore Brantner Wilson, The Black Codes of the South
(University of Alabama Press: 1965), 26-30.
Stanley Elkins, Slavery, (Chicago, University of
Chicago Press: 1968), 220.
Eric Foner, ed., Nat Turner, (Englewood Cliffs, N.J.,
Prentice-Hall: 1971), 115.
Harriet Jacobs [Linda Brant], Incidents in the Life of
a Slave Girl, (Boston: 1861), in Henry Louis Gates, Jr.,
ed., The Classic Slave Narratives, (New York, Penguin Books:
1987), 395-396.
Francis Newton Thorpe, The Federal and State
Constitutions, Colonial Charters, and Other Organic Laws of
the States, Territories, and Colonies Now or Heretofore
Forming The United States of America, (Washington,
Government Printing Office: 1909), reprinted (Grosse Pointe,
Mich., Scholarly Press: n.d.), 6:3424.
Thorpe, 6:3428.
Simpson v. State, 5 Yerg. 356 (Tenn. 1833).
State v. Huntly, 3 Iredell 418, 422, 423 (N.C. 1843).
State v. Newsom, 5 Iredell 181, 27 N.C. 250 (1844).
State v. Newsom, 5 Iredell 181, 27 N.C. 250, 251
(1844).
Thorpe, 5:2788.
State v. Newsom, 5 Iredell 181, 27 N.C. 250, 254
(1844).
State v. Huntly, 3 Iredell 418, 422 (N.C. 1843).
State v. Newsom, 5 Iredell 181, 27 N.C. 250, 254
(1844).
Early state constitutions limiting the right to bear
arms to citizens: Connecticut (1818), Kentucky (1792 &
1799), Maine (1819), Mississippi (1817), Pennsylvania (1790
— but not the 1776 constitution), Republic of Texas (1838),
State of Texas (1845).
Nunn v. State, 1 Ga. 243, 250, 251 (1846).
Nunn v. State, 1 Ga. 243, 250, 251 (1846).
Cooper and Worsham v. Savannah, 4 Ga. 68, 69 (1848).
Cooper and Worsham v. Savannah, 4 Ga. 68, 70, 71
(1848).
Cooper and Worsham v. Savannah, 4 Ga. 68, 72 (1848).
Juliet E. K. Walker, Free Frank: A Black Pioneer on the
Antebellum Frontier, (Lexington, KY, University Press of
Kentucky: 1983), 21. This is an inspiring biography of a
slave who, through hard work moonlighting in the production
of saltpeter (a basic ingredient of black powder) and land
surveying, saved enough money to buy his wife, himself, and
eventually all of his children and grandchildren out of
slavery — while fighting against oppressive laws and
vigorous racism. Most impressive of all, is that he did it
without ever learning to read or write.
Walker, 73.
Stephen Middleton, The Black Laws in the Old Northwest:
A Documentary History, (Westport, Conn., Greenwood Press:
1993), 27-32, 227-240, 309-314, 353-357, 403-404.
Michael Les Benedict, The Fruits of Victory:
Alternatives to Restoring the Union, 1865-1877, (New York,
J.B. Lippincott Co.: 1975), 87. Francis L. Broderick,
Reconstruction and the American Negro, 1865-1900, (London,
Macmillan Co.: 1969), 21. Dan T. Carter, When The War Was
Over: The Failure of Self-Reconstruction in the South, 1865-
1867, (Baton Rouge, Louisiana State University Press: 1985),
219-221. Eric Foner, Reconstruction, (New York, Harper &
Row: 1988), 258-259.
Foner, Reconstruction, 200-201.
Cockrum v. State, 24 Tex. 394, 401, 402, 403 (1859).
English v. State, 35 Tex. 473, 475 (1872).
English v. State, 35 Tex. 473, 479, 480 (1872).
State v. Nieto, 101 Ohio St. 409, 430, 130 N.E. 663
(1920).
State v. Nieto, 101 Ohio St. 409, 436, 130 N.E. 663
(1920).
Watson v. Stone, 4 So.2d 700, 703 (Fla. 1941).
Assembly Office of Research, Smoking Gun: The Case For
Concealed Weapon Permit Reform, (Sacramento, State of
California: 1986), 5.
Edmund S. Morgan, “Slavery and Freedom: The American
Paradox,” in Stanley N. Katz, John M. Murrin, and Douglas
Greenberg, ed., Colonial America: Essays in Politics and
Social Development, 4th ed., (New York: McGraw-Hill, Inc,
1993), 280.
Thomas G. Walker, “Suspect Classifications”, Oxford
Companion to the Supreme Court of the United States, (New
York, Oxford University Press: 1992), 848.
Express permission of the author was secured in creating and making
available on the Web this HTML-formatted copy.
From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:25:22 PDT 1996
Article: 18734 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Wed, 15 May 96 17:04:07 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: I just read about Ruby Ridge. American militias have my sympathy
Lines: 15
In article <8[email protected]>, [email protected]
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:
>Is it a matter for “debate”? The public was aroused by the weapons in
the
>hands of high-profile criminals and mobs; this prompted the first serious
>calls
>for gun control on the national level.
>
>
The public was aroused by a combination of media hype, and politicians
seeking to cover their proverbial rear ends about not being able to
control criminals…the same thing that’s happening today.
From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:25:23 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Wed, 15 May 96 19:35:33 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Revolutionary Majorities
Lines: 19
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Barrister) writes:
>Both the ADL and Southern Poverty Law Center are quite biased in their
>”studies” and reporting on the militia movement. I commend you for
>citing your source so the reader can consider that when giving
>credence (or not) to the allegation; however, if this is the only
>source for that particular fact, then I’d say we don’t really have
>much to rely upon.
As far as I can tell, SPLC is a giant fundraising scam that makes it’s
money off liberals. That being said, and taking into account the fact
that the ADL is *seriously myopic* when dealing with the Constitutional
Militias, they (ADL) still do have a reasonably good handle on the more
active members of white supremacist organizations in North America. To
the best of my ability to determine, Beam is a supremacist, and deserves
only the scorn and derision of our movement.
Arlin H. Adams
From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:25:24 PDT 1996
Article: 18776 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Thu, 16 May 96 2:03:06 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: I just read about Ruby Ridge. American militias have my sympathy
Lines: 16
In article <8[email protected]>, [email protected]
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:
>
>Whether there was merit or not to the public concern is not an issue. I
was
>not discussing the pros and cons of the gun control movement but merely
its
>modern origins.
>
>
merit is always the issue. and understanding the origins of anything is
impossible without a knowledge of the motivations behind the actions
taken.
From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:25:25 PDT 1996
Article: 18780 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Thu, 16 May 96 2:18:12 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: I just read about Ruby Ridge. American militias have my sympathy
Lines: 34
In article <8[email protected]>, [email protected]
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:
>
>Not only does it not happen often, but it doesn’t happen this time
either.
>Although there are some errors of interpretation and/or fact in Cramer’s
>article, the facts in it are basically sound, and do not conflict with a
>single
>thing I have said here, so far as I can tell.
Then you either didn’t read it, or didn’t comprehend it. Gun Control in
the United States has never been about controling crime, it’s been about
oppressing people. Next time, try paying attention to what you read,
rather than simply assuming you already know what it says.
>>>You are using designations which exist today, but did not exist in the
>>1920s.
>>
>>This is simply not true, mark. I suggest you talk to someone who knows
>>the history of high powered rifle competition shooting, or for that
>>matter, you might talk to someone with a background in military history,
>>which is where the terms rapid fire and slow fire were borrowed from.
>
>Ho hum. I guess I might talk to myself then. Stick to your own area of
>expertise, whatever the heck it is.
Ah but you see, I am dealing in one of my areas of expertise…my ballpark
markie, and if you want to make nonstandard use of terminology then *you*
are the one who has to document it, not I. I’m pretty sure I know where
you got your misinterpretation concerning the use of rapid fire, but I
want to see you admit it in front of everybody….
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Article: 18781 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Thu, 16 May 96 2:18:23 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: I just read about Ruby Ridge. American militias have my sympathy
Lines: 18
In article <8[email protected]>, [email protected] (David L Evens)
writes:
>
>And a certain ammount of conspiracy from the FBI, which was under mafia
>control at that time. (In fact, the FBI remained under mafia control
>right into the 1970’s, up until the time Hoover finaly ceased heading the
>FBI, and possibly continued for a period beyond then, as well.)
Hi David,
I’ve seen no documentation on this – can you recommend something to read
on the subject?
Best
Arlin
From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:25:26 PDT 1996
Article: 18783 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Thu, 16 May 96 2:33:25 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: bernard getz
Lines: 19
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Alan Gore)
writes:
>I just want hem all dead. Their very existence defiles our society.
>Why don’t you militia people give up trampling the back-country
>underbrush stalking imaginary black helicopters? instead, come down
>into our cities and make it hell on Earth for the criminals. Then the
>country would regard you as folk heroes, just as it has Bernhard
>Goetz.
Yo! Alan! militias are *local* organizations…why don’t you form your
own in YOUR neighborhood…that’s how this’ll get cleaned up – when the
people who live there decide to take responsibility for their own
communities.
Arlin Adams
p.s. that’s one *great* psuedonym, by the way 🙂
From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:25:27 PDT 1996
Article: 18789 of misc.activism.militia
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Date: Thu, 16 May 96 3:18:49 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Helloooooo in there….
Lines: 12
In article <8[email protected]>, [email protected]
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:
>The Federal Government, which stems from the people, does not wish to
wage a
>civil war against them.
>
>
boowahahahahaha, *whew* oh mark, you should warn people before you start
posting jokes!
From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:25:28 PDT 1996
Article: 18791 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Thu, 16 May 96 3:33:24 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Pitcavage on Patriot Movement
Lines: 73
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (JHistorian)
writes:
>* Not to worry David, the morning after the revolution mark will *still*
>* besitting at his computer attempting to convince people we don’t stand
>* a chance 🙂
>*
>That may be true, Arlin.
>
>On the other hand, a very large number of your militiaboy “we’s” will be
>dead.
undoubtedly. There will be an unfortunate number of folks who will, in
the initial stages, attempt to go toe to toe with the fe(de)ral
blackshirts…rough estimate would be somewhere between 60-80% casualties
for those units in the first two weeks of such a confrontation.
Fortunately, they will also be atritting the blackshirts at the same time.
While this is occuring, the rest of us will be preparing for the shadow
war which must inevitably follow.
If you want to know how *that* will go, Jim, read Mao, Che, and Giap – we
do.
>Make no mistake about it, if the militaboys ever try to cork off their
>little “inevitable war,” they–and you–will find out that the “sheeple”
>are, in fact, wolves in sheep’s clothing.
doubtful. look at the basic numbers – there are less than 2.4 million law
enforcement officers in the entire U.S. and that’s counting EVERYBODY –
federal, state, and local. Given that there would be an inevitable
attempt at firearms confiscation concurrent with any such uprising all we
need to do is get 10 percent of the 70 million firearms owners to
*passively* resist – no shooting, just force the government to arrest and
process them, and we’ve already tied up every single LEO more than twice.
Except of course, that wont be possible, since you and yours will still be
demanding police protection.
Lest you fantasize that the military will intervene, think again. First
of all, the only time such a general confrontation would occur is if the
militias agreed that the situation had deteriorated to the point that
there was no Constitutional basis for the current situation. Given that
to be the case, we would be certain to publicize the nature of our
grievances in such a way as to communicate our sole desire of returning to
*Constitutional* government -remember the oath of enlistment / oath of
office Jim? ‘defend the Constitution of the United States’…that part.
Combine that with the fact that, as long as SFU did not pull out, the
fe(de)ral government could not depend on *any* of it’s special operations
units to function against us, AND the number of sympathizers within the
military (all of who will be encouraged to “Just Say No”)…and you can
have no reasonable expectation of military intervention in that sort of
situation.
So the sheeple will either sit in their living rooms watching CNN and
being thankful that whatever is happening is going on some place else, or
they will go out and protest…of course the government will view any such
protest as support for us, so after the first two or three violent
repressions, I shouldn’t expect there’ll be much more of that, either.
>
>But tell us again how, when the entire Confederacy couldn’t beat the
>national government, an amorphous, un-coordinated, and leaderless group
of
>self-styled “militias” are going to do so.
Just did. The point of all this is that, the reason such an uprising has
not occured so far has not been that it could not – it has simply not been
neccesary. We CAN, we simply have chosen not to, up to this point. Many
of us are working very hard to turn this country around so we wont *have
to* do this, but in the end, if it comes down to it, do not doubt for an
instant that we can, and will. Questions?
Arlin H. Adams
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Date: Thu, 16 May 96 3:48:03 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Strategy and tactics for militia civil war
Lines: 14
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (JHistorian)
writes:
>If the militiaboys cork off their little “inevitable war,” do you think
>the French will send the same stuff again?
no, but watch the Chinese, Iranians, Iraqis Serbs, Syrians, and every
other tinpot dictatorship all decide that the US government might *just*
be a little too preoccupied to notice them, and start pushing the limits.
With all the downsizing of the last few years, the US military will be
busier than a one legged man in an ass-kicking contest….
Next question.
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Date: Thu, 16 May 96 4:03:04 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: A Call for Militiaman Assembly
Lines: 13
In article <8[email protected]>, [email protected] (Janet
L. Littler) writes:
> Besides, the name of
>the game is to clean the mess without a civil war if that is possible,
>not start one.
Here! Here! point for Janet! Problem is, that BOTH sides have to want to
clean up the mess…right now, it would appear that a majority of the
other side, is still denying there even *is* a mess.
Arlin
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Date: Thu, 16 May 96 4:18:07 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: A tiny chip for you
Lines: 9
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Gen. JC
Christian) writes:
>but I suspect that they were some kind of transmitter that broadcast my
>brainwaves to the Red Chinese.
Careful tim, I think you just admitted complicity in the tien an men
massacre 🙂
From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:25:31 PDT 1996
Article: 18821 of misc.activism.militia
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Date: Thu, 16 May 96 2:48:39 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Electoral Process???
Lines: 12
In article <[email protected]>, Richard Glen Cheek
writes:
>. Why is it that the common
>law courts, ‘freemen’, and neo-nazis get far more press than straight
>militia types? I get the feeling it’s ’cause they prefer to think of the
>militias this way. It makes it easier to dehumanise them, then disregard
>the militias arguments, complaints, or concerns.
Right on the money Richard! If they did otherwise they’d run a serious
risk of the public starting to listen to what we have to say.
From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:25:32 PDT 1996
Article: 18822 of misc.activism.militia
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Posted-Date: 15 May 1996 22:57:46 -0400
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Date: Thu, 16 May 96 3:03:10 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: All Right, Contestants, Come on Down!
Lines: 9
In article <8[email protected]>, [email protected]
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:
>5. Al Sharpton
No, I don’t think he’s a fed, but if he ever DOES show up, we need to make
sure he get’s introduced to louie of the national appliance…the two of
them deserve each other.
From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:25:32 PDT 1996
Article: 18837 of misc.activism.militia
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Posted-Date: 16 May 1996 07:32:27 -0400
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Date: Thu, 16 May 96 11:34:19 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: no more crosses
Lines: 15
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Allen Pete)
writes:
>As I understand it, Unitarians aren’t Christians. There is the old story
>of a Unitarian prayer going “To God, if there is a God, In Heaven, if
>there is a Heaver, etc”
Uh, Allen, there is such a thing as UU/C which stands for
Unitarian-Universalist/Christian…trust me, any denomination that
includes us the regular Unitarian-Universalists (UU) and the pagans (UU/P)
is NEVER dull. 🙂
Arlin
who just happens to be a UU/C
From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:25:33 PDT 1996
Article: 18839 of misc.activism.militia
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Posted-Date: 16 May 1996 07:31:11 -0400
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Date: Thu, 16 May 96 11:33:28 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Chechan Militia
Lines: 67
APPOLOGIES TO MY FRIENDS IN TEXAS, ESPECIALLY 1TLI, THE FOLLOWING EXAMPLES
INVOLVING YOUR FAIR STATE ARE USED ONLY FOR PURPOSES OF EDUCATIONAL
ILLUSTRATION WITH JIM.
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (JHistorian)
writes:
>No, actually I would “go at it” by pointing out FIRST that you, yourself,
>admit that there is racism, bigotry, and anti-semitism in the so-called
>militia movement;
As there is most places in our society, no more nor less. I do NOT brand
American society as racist any more than I do the militias…nor any less,
for that matter.
>and SECONDLY by pointing out that the militias’ use of the terms
>”Sovereign Citizen” or “Preamble Citizen” as opposed, and superior, to
>”14th Amendment citizen” (with little “c” as opposed to capital “C”) is
>nothing more than sugar-coated racism, either willingly or unwittingly;
hmm, nobody I know or associate with uses those terms…there’s a small
number of folks in the midwest and west who use the term 14th Amendment
Citizen in a derogatory way, and those I will not defend. We are ALL 14th
Amendment Citizens. As for the use of Sovereign Citizen, the most common
usage I’ve seen has been to delineate the fact that rights flow FROM the
individual TO the government, and not vice versa. This term has been
misused by the same strange folks who use the term 14th Amendment Citizen,
but that includes exactly NO one that I know. Personally I’ve neither
ever seen nor heard the term Preamble Citizen…where did you come by it?
Now let’s look at Texas, which is I believe where you live: You have the
klan, you have elements of AN, there’s a definite CI presence, you even
have folks like Otwell’s radical racist anti-abortion folks down in the
southern part of the state. Is it reasonable then to blame all Texans for
these things? Of course not. neither is it reasonable to blame the
entire militia movement for the idiocies of the few.
>and THIRDLY by pointing out that the Christian White Patriots are NOT THE
>SOLE EXAMPLE of racism by some group purporting itself to be a “militia”;
even as the Texas klan is not the sole example of racism by some group
purporting itself to be Texans.
>and FOURTHLY by pointing out that the Texas Emergency Reserve of the Klan
>purported to be a so-called constitutional militia;
only by the klan. The TER was in NO WAY a Constitutional Militia, in that
it specifically averred the Constitution. Hmm, come to think of it, isn’t
there a CSA presence down there – and don’t *they* claim to be Texans too?
>and FIFTHLY by pointing out that some 30 or so other groups which also
>purport to be militias also use the moniker “White” in their name.
okay, now there’s a number – 30. Let’s see, if I recall correctly, in the
testimony which revealed the compromise of the Tri-States communication
center, there was mention of the fact that they had identified about 900
militia units from message traffic. Okay, I’ll settle for admitting that
3% of all militia members are racist…what do you think the percentage is
for Texans?
>I can continue, if you like.
So can I, if you like.
From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:25:34 PDT 1996
Article: 18840 of misc.activism.militia
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Posted-Date: 16 May 1996 07:32:08 -0400
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Date: Thu, 16 May 96 11:33:51 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Christian Identity
Lines: 33
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (JHistorian)
writes:
>However, unlike your statements viz the “patriot movement,” I am not
>stupid enough to say that racism ISN’T a platform in academia — it’s not
>a very well-subscribed platform, but it is, nonetheless, a platform with
>SOME people in academia (as witnessed by those you reference).
>
>However, you seem not capable of admitting–in any manner
whatsoever–that
>the same holds true about the militias; to whit:
>
>> …. anti-Semitism ISN’T a Patriot movement platform…
The truth is, Jim, that it ISN’T part of the Patriot platform, although
there is a tiny fringe element which has repeatedly pushed to make it
such…’course every time they push they find themselves talking to the
wind, and nobody else, but they do keep on talking…see my previous
response to your previous response in the Chechen militia thread for a bit
more on that.
>* Oh NOW I see how this works!
>
>No, you apparently “see” very little. You also apparently do not
“reason”
>with very much of the grey matter inside your skull. The above problems
>were not a difficult to reason one’s way through; one wonders why you
were
>apparently not capable of doing so.
Jim, I’m simply applying the same logic you are…only from my
perspective.
From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:25:35 PDT 1996
Article: 18841 of misc.activism.militia
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Date: Thu, 16 May 96 11:48:17 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: www.jollyroger.com MISSION SACRED DIVINITY: TOP SECRET. LIBERALS KEEP OUT…
Lines: 5
Elliot,
next time, drink your beer AFTER you get done using the terminal in the
student union.
From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:25:36 PDT 1996
Article: 18847 of misc.activism.militia
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Date: Thu, 16 May 96 13:18:04 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: The Miracle of the Liberal Mind
Lines: 36
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (John
Dulaney) writes:
> The result of all this tenuous salivation is to give the public a
>test of readiness before allowing them a vote.
>
> Ah, ha! An idea!
>
> All voters….
>
> must be able to read, reason, solve simple puzzles of logic and
>society, understand our system of government, the voting records of
>candidates, their platforms, their record of lying, have at-the-ready
>candidates histories, understand the currents events and issues of the
day
>and be unsullied by the feral and somatic germs of Liberal Thought.
>
> If this means only an intelligent, well-read and able electorate
>is left to make the practical decisions the Business of Governing
demands,
>I’ll drink to that.
Hi John,
Every time a Poll Test has been instituted it has *inevitably* become a
method for the power mongers to prevent those who oppose them from voting.
The trick in a democracy is accomplishing something positive based on the
votes of everyone, not just those who agree with us. I would submit that
the US, in it’s current form, is actually much too large for this to be
possible, but that’s just my opinion. In any case, I have to vote ‘no’ on
this one – not because I would not like to see the development of a more
informed electorate; but because history shows us that a Poll Test does
not accomplish this goal.
Arlin Adams
From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:25:36 PDT 1996
Article: 18848 of misc.activism.militia
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Date: Thu, 16 May 96 13:48:05 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: I just read about Ruby Ridge. American militias have my sympathy
Lines: 12
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (JHistorian)
writes:
>
>Mark’s argument, short of narrowly defining “gun control” to mean the
>”control of automatic weaponry only,” has little merit.
>
For the second time in one 24 hour period, I find myself in agreement with
you. We need to be careful about this stuff Jim, people could start
talking….:-)
From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:25:37 PDT 1996
Article: 18868 of misc.activism.militia
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Posted-Date: 16 May 1996 07:32:48 -0400
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Date: Thu, 16 May 96 11:34:45 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Revolutionary Majorities
Lines: 11
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (JHistorian)
writes:
>* the best of my ability to determine, Beam is a supremacist,
>* and deserves only the scorn and derision of our movement.
>
>Shouldn’t be too hard to determine — he himself has said that he is.
Thankyou Jim, but I was trying to force our mysterious Canadian poster to
decloak…
From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:25:38 PDT 1996
Article: 18878 of misc.activism.militia
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Posted-Date: 16 May 1996 10:44:12 -0400
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Date: Thu, 16 May 96 14:48:05 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: I just read about Ruby Ridge. American militias have my sympathy
Lines: 20
In article <8[email protected]>, [email protected]
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:
>
>Ho hum. I originally posted four or so requirements needed to prove that
the
>
>Reconstruction era Southern state laws were somehow related to the first
push
>
>for gun control at the federal level in the 1920s and 1930s, and you
utterly
>failed to meet those requirements.
>
>
I don’t play to your strawmen mark. the point here is to show up your
biases and thereby discredit you, NOT to play by your rules. nice try, no
sale.
From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:25:39 PDT 1996
Article: 18879 of misc.activism.militia
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Posted-Date: 16 May 1996 09:42:41 -0400
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Date: Thu, 16 May 96 13:48:39 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: “Worst Nightmare”
Lines: 28
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (JHistorian)
writes:
>Yet, you *DO* perceive mark’s statement that he is collecting information
>on the “militias” as being a threat.
>
>Even though collecting information on what one is writing about is
>fundamental to the task of the historian, and Mark is both an historian
>and writing a book on the “militias.”
Look at it from my perspective, Jim:
he is openly hostile to the entire movement.
he concentrates on the fringe elements and then claims that they represent
the entire movement, despite numerous refutations (which he simply
ignores).
he poses as an expert on us, when he appears to know very little about the
mainstream militias; and uses that ‘expert’ position to spread his beliefs
to the media.
he slanders the entire movement in a global forum (this one) by repeated
attempts to denegrate who we are and what we stand for.
It’s the old ‘walks like a duck/talks like a duck’ routine – he acts like
a threat, therefore I must assume that he is, until it is proven
otherwise. Such proof has not yet been forthcoming.
From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:25:39 PDT 1996
Article: 18890 of misc.activism.militia
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Date: Thu, 16 May 96 23:03:17 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Feds Preparing For Nationwide Gun Sweeps?
Lines: 17
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Edward
W. Gardner) writes:
>It is ileagal for the BATF to keep ANY records on us and the guns we own,
>except for those covered under the NFA (full auto’s, short barrelled
>shotguns).
>
>
That was codified in FOPA (thats the Firearms Owners Protection Act).
The way this is being gotten around in the Mass. case is that the state
*hired* the atf to convert the records *for the state*. It *is* legal
under Mass. state law for the *state* to keep records, you see. Now atf
*claims* that they are not keeping any copies of the stuff that they are
processing, but somehow I find that just a bit difficult to believe.
From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:25:40 PDT 1996
Article: 18894 of misc.activism.militia
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Date: Fri, 17 May 96 0:33:04 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Helloooooo in there….
Lines: 13
In article <8[email protected]>, [email protected]
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:
>>boowahahahahaha, *whew* oh mark, you should warn people before you start
>>posting jokes!
>
>You see why people fear the militia movement now? You have no sense of
>reality.
ah well, then I guess everyone should be greatful that we *do* have a
sense of humor…
From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:25:41 PDT 1996
Article: 18906 of misc.activism.militia
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Date: Fri, 17 May 96 1:49:31 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Pitcavage on Patriot Movement
Lines: 27
In article <8[email protected]>, [email protected]
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:
>In article <[email protected]>, AHABIZ wrote:
>>
>>In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected]
>>(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:
>>
>>>So, when do you propose to start your revolution against the
government?
>>
>>Why, mark, I didn’t say *we* were going to start it. When do you plan
to
>>start openly oppressing political dissidents?
>
>You conveniently left out the previous statement, in which your meaning
was
>clear.
My previous sentence made reference to “the morning after the revolution”.
I neither stated nor implied who started the fight, only that we would
successfully conclude it, once it *was* started. What irks you, I think
is that I responded to you with a question in the same vein as your own –
accusatory. In other words, mark, I just gave you back what you gave me,
only from *my* perspective, instead of yours.
From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:25:42 PDT 1996
Article: 18934 of misc.activism.militia
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Date: Fri, 17 May 96 7:49:27 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: I just read about Ruby Ridge. American militias have my sympathy
Lines: 12
In article <8[email protected]>, [email protected]
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:
>Well, you failed at that, too. You merely posted something irrelevant to
the
>discussion.
I guess we’ll just have to wait and see whether it was relevant…I
obviously think it was, and you obviously think it wasn’t…guess we’ll
have to see what others have to say about it.
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Article: 18944 of misc.activism.militia
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Date: Fri, 17 May 96 3:18:03 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: NWO expanding with Poland
Lines: 10
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (JBrolin546)
writes:
>
>The EU is the European subsidiary of the Global 2000 iniative:
>
>Germany’s Greens and their Polish counterparts are joining forces.
yet another rejected X-Files script somehow wanders into the newsgroup….
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Fri, 17 May 96 11:48:03 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Agents, pitman, assassination and war
Lines: 71
There you go again mikey,
>People who, in a war, gather information on the sizes, types
>and locations of military forces and provide that information
>to the enemy of those forces in any war are ALSO the enemy of
>those forces and generally must be killed, if possible.
Cheez, I thought I mentioned that you needed to stop getting your military
theory from paperback novels. If you had any real knowledge of military
security practices, you would realize that neutralization of hostile
intelligence collectors RARELY involves killing anyone. The reason for
this is quite simple: if you kill one off, another will replace them, and
that second one will be much harder to locate…thus much more effective
against you. The point in these situations is to prevent the hostile
collector from reporting *accurate* information, thus preventing your
enemies from making accurate predictions concerning your future
activities. That’s ALL. Probably a moot point in your case though, since
all you do is talk.
> They
>might surrender, as they are merely scouts, unless they have
>disguised themselves as civilians or your soldiers to evade
>detection, in which case they are spies and merit execution
>without regard to surrender.
so instead of being able to turn them (i.e. get them to feed their bosses
the information you *want* them to have), you have a bunch of dead bodies
and the sure knowledge that another group of spies has already begun
infiltration into your area. Brilliant.
> Anyone who acts on his own
>under the rules of war is at best an army of one, and more likely
>just a murderer.
Gee, where have I heard that before? man it’s deja vu all over again.
> Being part of the
>government may or may not be a forfeiture of the right to live,
it is not.
> In that case he would
>be an enemy agent and might be sniped the same as any soldier
>walking along a road – until he surrenders.
Hmm, unless YOU are planning on shooting him yourself mikey, you shouldn’t
be making statements like this. I’m not, none of the folks I know in Ohio
are, so I guess that leaves you. Of course that’s predicated on the
concept that you are capable of walking your talk – something of which
everyone here is rightly skeptical. Personally, I don’t think mark has
anything to worry about from your statements.
>Let me also state that some forces might legitimately consider
>themselves currently in a state of war.
Nope, and you know no sane person in this newsgroup supports that
supposition either.
> Let
>government employees and agents realize that they can and will
>be associated with the other members of that organization and its
>stated, universal goals.
Only by you. look mikey, you can continue to post this anarchistic
nonsense just as long as you like, I’m still going to take it apart on you
every time I feel like it…the only thing you can do about it is leave.
Arlin H. Adams
From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:25:44 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Fri, 17 May 96 18:48:03 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Agents, pitman, assassination and war
Lines: 20
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (RYK an1) writes:
>Do you think that if a rebellion started and we lost, that Pitcavage or
>any of the others wouldn’t leap for joy at the though of watching us hang
>for our ‘crimes”.
Sorry, Lance, but the problem here is to *avoid* becoming like them. Just
because *they* would act this way doesn’t mean we have to do the same.
>A few of them have said that they will be happy, to watch us hang. Same
>logic applies.
Now this is just me, but I am not comfortable about the concept of justice
without mercy. There is too much of that now.
Best
Arlin
From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:25:44 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Fri, 17 May 96 21:48:47 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Chechan Militia
Lines: 8
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (David L Evens)
writes:
>Don’t forget, Jim works for a profoundly racist organisation.
Hunh? you lost me on that one David…I thought he was an academic down
Texas-way
From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:25:45 PDT 1996
Article: 19010 of misc.activism.militia
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militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Fri, 17 May 96 19:18:28 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Pitcavage on Patriot Movement
Lines: 79
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (JHistorian)
writes:
>>If you want to know how *that* will go, Jim, read Mao, Che,
>>and Giap – we do.
>
>Already have. With the exception of Vo Nguyen Giap’s book, the others
>were “de jure” reading during the 60s, remember?
yep, now, do you think you can get *mark* to read them? 🙂
>>doubtful. look at the basic numbers – there are less than 2.4 million
>law
>>enforcement officers in the entire U.S. and that’s counting EVERYBODY
>>- federal, state, and local. Given that there would be an inevitable
>>attempt at firearms confiscation concurrent with any such uprising all
we
>>need to do is get 10 percent of the 70 million firearms owners to
>
>Counting chickens before they hatch is rather risky business.
ayep that’s true. However expecting such a confiscation to be 90%
successful is more than slightly optimistic as well. The odds are in our
favor here.
>>Except of course, that wont be possible, since you and yours will still
>be
>>demanding police protection.
>
>Again, your rhetorical slavering blinds you to certain very real facts to
>the contrary.
hmm, care to cite a couple?
>>Lest you fantasize that the military will intervene, think again.
>
>Do tell. I guess you are unaware of the infamous survey conducted my
some
>military-type who was writing his Masters’ thesis.
oh, indeed I am. It showed that 1/3 of the respondents, mostly junior
enlisted people, *would* take up arms against the civilian populace, and
2/3 would not. Even the Marines consider a unit to be unable to operate
at 1/3 strength.
>The moment you and/or your militiaboy brethren begin a shooting war,
>despite whatever jingo-ism you label it with, the fact remains that most
>people, military included, will be quite cognizant of the fact that you
>have de facto begun an insurrection, rebellion, etc. and I have little
>doubt that the military will shoot some of the militiaboys like the
>traitors that they are, some will receive pardons like after the Civil
>War, and hopefully the gene pool of America will have been cleansed of
the
>congenital stupidity that seems to be rampant within the so-called
>”militia movement.”
hmm, you seem to ignore the basic issue that this is a resistance
movement…we don’t intend to *start* such a conflict…just finish it.
Given that, once we are attacked the case for self defense becomes
predominant. As for cleansing the gene pool, well, even if the desire for
Liberty was genetic, are you sure you’d want to get rid of it?
>If you don’t believe in that scenario, be my guest as starting your
little
>”inevitable war.”
Again, Jim, *we* aren’t going to start it.
>So, take your best shot, so to speak.
oh we shall, never fear.
Arlin
From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:25:46 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Fri, 17 May 96 20:03:22 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Revolutionary Majorities
Lines: 16
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (JHistorian)
writes:
>>>Thankyou Jim, but I was trying to force our mysterious Canadian
>>>poster to decloak…
>
>Huber? I doubt that he is Beam, writing incognito. I’ve read some of
the
>stuff that Beam has written/spoken. As strange as Beam is, he is still
>far more articulate than is Huber.
uh no, although they only have half a brain between them, I’m sure huber
and beam are two different people. The post I was responding to was
someone *else* writing from canada…I thought we had a 3rd nazidiot
decloaking, you see.
From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:25:47 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Fri, 17 May 96 22:20:32 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Chechan Militia
Lines: 158
Hi again Jim,
>I think it’s pretty clear that there is a higher incidence of racism in
>the so-called “militias” and their kindred than in society in general.
I guess what I’m trying to get at is that the perception of racism is MUCH
greater than the actual racism I’ve encountered among militia members. I
certainly have *not* run into any supremacist types among the CM. In some
monocultural areas I’ve encountered racism, but only in the populist
context of people who are leery of folks who ‘aren’t from around
here’…in a monocultural environment it’s easier to tell if someone fits
that category, if they also *look* different. In other words, the only
racism I’ve encountered in the movement is the same background noise sort
which exists in mainstream American Society.
>At the same time, I also think it is not just a little bit hypocritical
of
>American society at large to blame certain groups for behaviour that also
>exists in the general society.
Agreed!
>* hmm, nobody I know or associate with uses those terms…there’s a small
>* number of folks in the midwest and west who use the term 14th Amendment
>* Citizen in a derogatory way, and those I will not defend.
>
>The “Sovereign Citizen v. 14th Amendment citizen” exists on every
>militiaboy web page or BBS that I have contacted — which is over 500 of
>them, at last count, in all regions of the country.
well, you’ve certainly seen more web pages than I have, I doubt that I
have more than 60-70 bookmarked that are current. Since I communicate
primarily via the net, my contact with BBS’s is also obviously more
limited than your own…doubt that I’ve run into more than 30 or so that
were uniquely militia oriented…I dunno do you count networked bbs’s
(such as PRN) each as a seperate entity, or as a reflection of the group,
or both?
I guess my response to this would be twofold:
1. As regards web pages, the simple fact is that *anybody* can publish a
personal web page, whether or not they actually represent anyone other
than themselves is another matter entirely. A couple of examples you may
be able to find with a search engine include the ‘GLOCK4’ pseudogang page
and the infamous ‘CNG’ page from last months NBC News smear job on the
militias. Both of these pages are run by small groups (3-4) of teenage
wannabes who apparently have little or no connection to anyone else. Hmm,
last I looked there’s even a pseudomilitia web page run by a couple of
kids at the USAF Academy High School…unless their computer teacher has
caught it by now and taken it down….
Also, the web no more profiles the militia movement than it provides an
accurate reflection of American society at large. If I were to judge the
US by what I see on the web, I’d say that we are all constantly buying
computer equipment, ordering fancy food and gifts through the mail, taking
activist stances on political and social issues, tend to hold libertarian
views, and have at least a Bachelor’s degree. As a registered
Libertarian, I can say that at least one component of that last statement
is provably false…so are the rest, most likely. A profile of the
movement drawn from these resources is no more probably accurate than that
of the American public.
2. Since I don’t regularly deal in the BBS world, my only question to you
there would be if you were counting seperate BBS’s that were networked? (I
mentioned PRN, as the one I’m most familiar with) If so, how much of the
traffic you saw on each BBS originated there, and how much originated
elsewhere on the network? Please to remember that militias are inherently
*local* organizations. If a majority of a certain type of BBS traffic
originated on one or two (or even 8 or 10) nodes on a network and then
circulated throughout the rest, that traffic would certainly not represent
militias which existed in the areas associated with the other nodes….
>That you personally are not aware of it, or do not associate yourself
>with it, does not necessarily entail that it is not a MAJOR COMPONENT of
>the “platform” of the so-called “militia movement.”
hmm, well, I’d remind you once again that once again that this is a
movement based on *local* control. To the extent that neither I nor
anyone else can speak for all of the militias, there may be some out there
for whom it is a major component. However, to the extent that my contacts
exist throughout a major portion of this country, I can categorically
state that it has never even been considered as a component of any such
platform. That’s about the best I can give you on that one Jim.
>* but that includes exactly NO one that I know. Personally I’ve neither
>* ever seen nor heard the term Preamble Citizen…where did you come by
>it?
>
>From a number of the militiaboy BBSes and web pages.
this one honestly has me stumped – if you could email me the URL’s of a
couple of these sites, I’d like to take a look at them…
>* Now let’s look at Texas, which is I believe where you live
>
>You “believe” incorrectly. I live in New Orleans; I used to live in
>Texas.
ooooooooops sorry! my error!
>On the contrary, it is reasonable to blame all Texans — to the extent
>that they tolerate such anti-constitutional ideas. If they do not
>tolerate them, do not defend them, and seek to weed them out, then — no,
>it is not reasonable to blame them
ah, my point exactly!
>* neither is it reasonable to blame the entire militia movement for the
>idiocies
>* of the few.
>
>On the contrary, it is reasonable to blame all militiaboys — to the
>extent that they tolerate such anti-constitutional ideas. If they do not
>tolerate them, do not defend them, and seek to weed them out, then — no,
>it is not reasonable to blame them.
again exactly.
>However, you and your brethren do not do so. In fact, you claim that
what
>are obvious threats are not threats at all, and what are not threats are,
>in fact, threats.
That’s an awfully general statement, Jim. In point of fact we have been
and are continuing to work at filtering the racism out of the movement,
even as society at large is doing the same throughout the country.
Because of our emphasis on individual rights, I would submit that we are
AT LEAST on par with the rest of the US, and probably slightly ahead of
most areas from which we draw our membership. As for defining what is,
and is not, a threat, I’m afraid I’m going to have to ask for some
specifics. Validity of a threat is inherently a value judgement,
therefore the only way to discuss this issue would be to examine some
specific instances and look at the underlying values which led us to our
decisions. Make sense?
>And, in my opinion, you DO deserve the scorn, and the blame, in such
>instances.
w-e-l-l you’re certainly allowed your opinion, but I would submit from the
above, that it may very well be based on a biased sample.
>>I can continue, if you like.
>
>* So can I, if you like.
>
>Please do. It’s one of the few semblances of something other than
>bucolic, doe-eyed notions of revolution, etc. that I’ve seen hereon.
over to you 🙂
Arlin
From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:25:48 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sat, 18 May 96 15:18:19 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Req: Patriot music
Lines: 12
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Tim Hill)
writes:
>70% of American women have never had an emotionally
> satisfactory relationship with a Republican
> –TV Nation Poll
>
>
gee, and from what they’ve told me, all Democrats do is talk about it…no
wonder we libertarians get all the women. :->
From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:25:49 PDT 1996
Article: 19062 of misc.activism.militia
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Posted-Date: 17 May 1996 20:38:57 -0400
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sat, 18 May 96 15:20:05 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: “Worst Nightmare”
Lines: 26
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (JHistorian)
writes:
>
>>It’s the old ‘walks like a duck/talks like a duck’ routine – he acts
>>like a threat, therefore I must assume that he is, until it is proven
>>otherwise. Such proof has not yet been forthcoming.
>
>Nor has any proof been forthcoming that he is doing anything other than
>just pissing you off.
>
>Explain to me each and every instance where something that Pitcavage has
>said has altered your life in some empirically measurable terms.
Jim, ya gotta calm down man…you just ran right over into the next
message…if you go back and read what I wrote you’ll notice that I said
that since he is hostile he must be presumed to be a threat until proven
otherwise. True, he may very well be a hostile wimp with no more than a
computer and an attitude, but over the internet that’s rather difficult to
ascertain, now isn’t it?
really..just take a few deep breaths, that’s it, relax…you made a
mistake, but it’s okay…I’m pretty sure you’re mature enough to admit it.
Arlin
From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:25:49 PDT 1996
Article: 19067 of misc.activism.militia
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militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sat, 18 May 96 15:33:22 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: War Veteran Wannabes: the Suicide of Adml Boorda
Lines: 12
In article <8[email protected]>, [email protected] (The Amer War
Lib’y) writes:
> VIETNAM VETERAN PHONIES
>
>Since The American War Library’s establishment on the Internet
>approximately one year ago,
I herewith nominate these guys for bad taste troll of the month.
Arlin H. Adams
From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:25:50 PDT 1996
Article: 19080 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sat, 18 May 96 15:20:18 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: “Worst Nightmare”
Lines: 91
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (JHistorian)
writes:
>No, Arlin, let’s look at it from a perspective of real REALITY.
oh, I agree, let’s.
>You claim Mark is a threat, because he collects information. Along coms
>Bebee (or whatever is his name), and he overtly threatens Mark, and you
>say, “no, it wasn’t.”
Harry Bibee didn’t threaten mark. The only person who has openly
threatened mark, to my recollection, has been mikey, whom no one
*including mark* takes seriously. The ‘threat’ mark was whining about was
the militia Declaration issued back in April. You jumped into the middle
of a *long* multithread discussion here Jim, without checking back to see
what was actually going on. Reality is that mark becomes nearly
hysterical whenever anything is posted that even appears to imply that the
militias are capable of taking effective action. Reality is, ya done been
duped by mark’s hysteria.
>The ONLY THING that differentiates, in your book, is whether or not the
>respective participant happens to be of your same persuasion.
I would say that *seems* to be the reason you committed yourself to this
erronious course of action…
>>he is openly hostile to the entire movement.
>
>So friggin’ what? He does have that right, doesn’t he?
certainly he has the right. and I have an equal right to be hostile right
back…that’s why he and I get into it so much.
>Or, is the First Amendment actually the First Casualty in Militia World?
No, but let me throw that back at you and ask if it’s the First Casualty
of the anti-militia world…as it might seem in this case?
>>It’s the old ‘walks like a duck/talks like a duck’ routine …..
>
>And, of course, Bebee’s (or whatever is his name) duck is actually a
>canary.
Mr. Bibee is a very talented person, but can’t ever remember hearing of
him turn a duck into a canary. WHEW! Is that legal??
>Typical militaboy bullshit.
typical blind antimilitia prejudice.
>Mark doesn’t slander you, Arlin. You slander yourselves — by not
>possessing sufficient enough personal integrity and ethics to admit that
>there are some really crazy mother fuckers in your midst and that they,
in
>fact, DO manifest themselves as a threat — not only to people like Mark,
>but to yourselves.
uh, would you say Billy Jeff, Aunt Janet, and Uncle Louie (Freeh) are on
your side? Do you have the personal integrity to admit one is a political
hack and the other two have strong neofascist tendencies? There are crazy
people on *all* sides of the issue. The above mentioned DO manifest
themselves as threats to the liberties of both us AND you. What then do
you do for yourselves by ignoring these problems?
>Since you’re enamored of old adages, here’s you one you might pause to
>reflect upon:
>
>”You lay down with dogs, you get up with fleas.”
precisely my point here Jim.
>If you people don’t start portraying yourselves as reasonable people and
>cleaning out the lunatics in your midst, you aren’t going to win any
>”inevitable war or anything else, for that matter, except the loathing of
>the entire country.
precisely my point back to you here, Jim.
>And, that is not “patriotic” of you, it is simply stupid.
Sauce for the goose, Jim.
Arlin
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Posted-Date: 4 May 1996 21:51:54 -0400
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Date: Sun, 5 May 96 2:03:03 GMT
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Subject: Re: Project Worst Nightmare? What?
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From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:25:21 PDT 1996
Article: 18728 of misc.activism.militia
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Posted-Date: 15 May 1996 12:49:19 -0400
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Wed, 15 May 96 17:03:44 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Facts mark doesn’t want you to know Part II (the references)
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