Adams 0596-2, Adams Arlin H

JHistorian writes:
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]

>No, Arlin, the REAL truth is that ALL groups in society have to suffer
the
>slings and arrows of their bad apples — be that group teenagers, the
>government, or the militias.

certainly any group may have ‘bad apples’, what is uncalled for is when a
small number of bad apples are mischaracterized as representing the entire
group. That’s been my point, all along.

>
>You militiaboy prima donna’s are, and will be, no different — and to
the
>extent that you refuse to acknowledge that, it is YOU, not the rest of
the
>world, that is out of touch with reality.

we don’t refuse to acknowledge the existance of this sort of bias – heck
most of us deal with it every day. Our reality is very much intact.

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:25:52 PDT 1996
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Date: Sat, 18 May 96 15:20:33 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: What is your view on women in the military?
Lines: 18

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Les
Griswold) writes:

>
>You can say THAT again! Why, read the string about the genital exam of
59
>12-year old girls!
>
>

two questions les:

1. just how long did *YOU* spend in the military?
2. other than the fact that it threatens your supremacist views
concerning sex roles, what’s your problem?

Arlin Adams

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:25:52 PDT 1996
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Date: Sat, 18 May 96 17:03:10 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Christian Identity
Lines: 12

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (frankenchrist)
writes:

> That is well established..The burden of proof is upon those who claim
>the neo-militia movement is *not* the armed wing of the
>Christian Patriot movement.

sorry frankie, no sale. Remember that militias are all local
organizations? each one is a part of the community in which it lives. to
claim that they are all the ‘armed wing’ of anything sounds a lot like a
conspiracy theory to me.

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:25:53 PDT 1996
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Date: Sat, 18 May 96 17:03:18 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Jewish Conspiracy Proof? –>>
Lines: 17

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (John
Dulaney) writes:

>
> Is there a Real International Jewish Plot to Rule the World?
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> I found the (part 1 of 3 parts) article below in my mail box last
> week.

Hi John,

This is what passes for propaganda in the minds (I use the term loosly) of
the nazidiots. Have you considered flaming the sender? That may be the
only sure way to end this nonsense.

Arlin

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:25:54 PDT 1996
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Date: Sat, 18 May 96 16:48:12 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Agents, pitman, assassination and war
Lines: 52

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (ronald p.
cain ) writes:

Hi Ron,

>Once one side or the other realizes it is losing, they will do anything
>to win. Take a look at the recent atrocities in Bosnia for an example,
>if you don’t agree.

It might be more accurate to say that some people on either side will be
tempted to to anything to win…which is why maintaining discipline in
defensive situations is so critical. The serbs did not do so, and we see
the results. This doesn’t justify what they did, and it does make their
commanders culpable for the crimes of their subordinates.

>Rules of engagement, gentlemen’s agreements, Geneva Conventions,
>they’re nice to hear and pretty to read-but when the talk stops and the
>fighting begins, humans are capable of anything and everything.

*Some* humans are, most aren’t. Studies from WWII show that in large
scale engagements, even in experienced units, only about half of the
troops even fire their rifles (for the Marines it’s about 2/3). Many
Americans have real problems with taking the life of another human being,
even in a combat environment. Expecting most people to engage in
unethical conduct, except under the most extreme survival situations, is
probably a bad bet. More to the point, one of the primary differences
between good guys and bad guys is that the good guys realize the truth of
the old adage “Just because you can, doesn’t mean you should”.

>Let’s not kid ourselves into thinking that should a revolution occur,
>the fighting will break promptly at 10a.m. for tea every morning.

No, and that’s not the point of having rules of engagement. Even setting
aside the moral and ethical imperatives behind them, there are some very
practical advantages to such rules. The first, and most important is that
we can’t win without the support of the general population. Support we
will not have, if we develop a reputation for random violence against
noncombatants.

Additionally, the enemy will seek to build a perception that we are
violent immoral animals – that’s a standard propaganda tactic. To ignore
it, or pretend it has no affect, is to aid the enemy in their task.
Rather, we must clearly communicate through our actions that we are above
such things AT ALL TIMES. That is the only effective countermeasure to
this sort of propaganda.

Without rules of engagement we will at best loose, and at worst become the
same as those whom we fight. I don’t find either choice acceptable, do
you?

Arlin

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Date: Sat, 18 May 96 16:48:19 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Christian Identity
Lines: 14

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (frankenchrist)
writes:

>J> There is little reason why anyone should have heard of CI
>J> before the mid-/late- 1980 unless they were members of the
>J> radical right or studied the radical right.
>
> The media has an agenda to keep this stuff ‘under the rug’.
>Notice how it wasn’t until the OKC bombing that the media
>started paying attention to militias?

okay, this has me intrigued – why would the media seek to suppress
information concerning a group as bizzare as the ci types?

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:25:55 PDT 1996
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Date: Sat, 18 May 96 17:18:03 GMT
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Subject: Re: Resistance, not offense, is the word for today…
Lines: 15

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Steven D.
Sybesma) writes:

>
>I believe the word we are searching for is ‘RESISTANCE’, by peaceful
means
>first, but if it becomes necessary due to an over-stepping, belligerent
>Federal government, THEN we will have both the MEANS as well as the moral
>authority to defend ourselves from its tyranny.

Steve, I do believe you’ve captured the essence of the movement right
there! Well said!

Arlin Adams

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:25:56 PDT 1996
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Date: Sat, 18 May 96 19:03:28 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: What is your view on women in the military?
Lines: 58

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Les
Griswold) writes:

>> 1. just how long did *YOU* spend in the military?
>
>Two years. Not that it’s particularly relevant. I don’t want a
>representative cross-section of the population under arms if we get
>invaded; I want the BEST POSSIBLE PEOPLE to be defending me (that I
>consider myself best able to defend myself is axiomatic).

Hmm, in part that would seem to reflect the differences in traditions
between British Commonwealth Culture (I realize you’re in Canada, but I’m
generalizing here) where there was an emphasis on a more professional army
and American culture, which (up until recently) went out of it’s way to
promote an army which contained a majority of citizen-soldiers.
Experience shows that, in a capitalist society such as our own, the
military gets the BEST AVAILABLE PEOPLE. Having served in a number of
units which were 50% female, I can state from experience that integrating
women into the military simply increased the likelihood that the best
available people would in fact be there. I can also state from experience
that after a week or so in the field, the *last* thing anybody is
concerned about is sex…sleep, yes, food, certainly, shelter, yep, that
too, but much of anything else was just not relevant to the situation.

>
>> 2. other than the fact that it threatens your supremacist views
>> concerning sex roles, what’s your problem?
>
>What do my, or any other, supremacist views have to do with the facts of
>biology, except that they largely agree with observation? I think you’re
>champing at the bit to go on a “Natsee-bash”. Perhaps to prove yet again
>that you militia wannabes AREN’T “Natsees”?

actually, the term I usually use for you guys is ‘nazidiots’ but I was
trying to be polite. Your views on biology are as warped as everything
else in your philosophy. Now don’t get me wrong, I understand that your
primary concern is avoiding genetic crossbreeding, so you are forced to
produce large families, thus condemning any women who buy into your
spending a good percentage of their time pregnant. However, attempting to
justify that in biological terms is at best nonsensical. You’re trying to
out produce all of the rest of us, Les, and *that* is a simple numerical
impossiblity. In the meanwhile, however, you are forced to maintain rigid
gender roles within your own groups, in order to try to maintain group
stability.

Hmm, thinking about it that way, it’s no wonder you supremacist types are
so terrified by the Constitutional Militias – we don’t discriminate by
gender, which means we will ALWAYS be able to field more armed combatants
than you will, and we will ALWAYS have the best available people doing the
job, regardless of the sexuality…something you will never be able to
say.

ah well, gotta go, I’m helping teach the range session of a personal
protection course this afternoon. Not to worry, half the class is female,
and at least 1/3 of the class is always made up of ethnic minorities…and
of course you know what I teach them about folks like you. :->

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:25:57 PDT 1996
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Date: Sat, 18 May 96 19:03:13 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: HOW MANY KINDS OF MILITIA ARE THERE???
Lines: 15

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (JD11B) writes:

> Citzens arrests are
>usually restricted to crimes committed in their presence or in similary
>narrow circumstances. Certainly no magistrate I’ve ever heard of has
given
>an arrest warrant to a civilian so he can arrest the accuesed in his
home.

Guys, I know next to nothing about this topic, but how are folks like
bounty hunters and such covered? Or if they’re serving a warrant, are
they considered officers of the court?

Arlin

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Date: Sun, 19 May 96 6:03:03 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Agents, pitman, assassination and war
Lines: 81

Hi again Ron,

> But what do your
>think the patriots are going to do once the desperate fanantics in
>Washington drop Fuel-Air weapons or BLU-82’s on them. And that’s the
>short list.

Actually if somebody dumps an FAE on them, they’re gonna die, but we’ll
get back to that in a minute. Ron, they’re going to react the way people
have been reacting ever since there was indirect fire artillery and people
could shell each other from miles away. Some of them are going to freak,
some of them are going to go catatonic, and the majority of them are just
going to live through it and keep going. HOWEVER this is one of those
times where unit morale and unit discipline are absolutely critical…and
MUST be enforced. The issue will be whether the leaders have been and are
capable of continuing doing so.

>Fuel-Air weapons, for those who don’t know, are like Napalm bombs that
>can cover LARGE areas.

Technically, it ain’t a flame weapon (although it will do a fairly good
job of scorching everything in it). FAE are basically similar in effect
to dumping a leaky LP gas canister onto something, waiting a minute or
two, and then throwing in a match. The flame is really secondary, what
kills is the massive overpressure caused by the explosion. That
overpressure crushes stuff on the ground, as well as any place the
pressure can get into…bunkers, tunnels, and such as well as unsealed
armored vehicles…the thing about using FAE is that the effect is
measured in cubic acres…and anybody who has seen the effects of one will
recognize it instantly. Using that against an ‘insurrection’ will be as
good as admitting to the world that they’ve lost control of the
situation…which will be exactly the LAST message they would want to get
out. Probability of use, except in very remote areas is extremely
low…and if anybody *does* get hit with one, THEY wont be around to get
pissed off.

>BLU-82’s were used in Viet Nam to clear landing zones out of the
>jungle. They were also dropped in the Persian Gulf War to demoralize
>the enemy. These suckers weigh 15,000 pounds and are commonly dropped
>by C-130 because they won’t fit in/under a B-52.

ayep, and the last thing I’m gonna do if I see C-130’s starting to come in
low and slow is stand underneath their flight path, you know?

Both of your points DO illustrate one critical fact – because the weapons
systems you’ve mentioned require advanced planning and targetting (one
doesn’t just load up a bunch of cargo planes with BLU’s and have them fly
around randomly πŸ™‚ ) It is absolutely critical to remember that a
resistance force must *never* try to hold on to a specific piece of
terrain…safety is in avoiding detection, continuous movement, and
engaging in combat only when it is to your advantage to do so. Another
point here is that neither of these weapons systems, nor any other area
weapon can be used in close proximity to forces from the same side. The
NVA had a saying that went “The only way to defeat an American is to grab
him by his belt”. What that meant was that only in close combat were they
fighting on nearly equal terms – when the US military couldn’t bring their
superior weapons technology into play for fear of hitting their own
troops. This example bears remembering.

>I know how guys are. Once word gets out that the Federal thugs have
>committed any atrocity, people are going to want PAYBACK. It’s only
>human nature. You may be thinking that good militia commanders won’t
>let their troops do that. Maybe so, but there are and will be plenty
>more cells of patriots trusting noone and doing what feels right to
>them. I believe the phrase “fog of war” applies here.

We may well have to arrest and try people on our own side, I don’t think
there’s any question about it. None the less, the only way to
minimize/prevent abuses is to establish and enforce a policy of ZERO
tolerance…there are no alternatives.

>I really pray that our capital full of socialistic fools stops and
>realizes what it has been doing to our country before it is too late.
>But our country has turned its collective back on God, and it’s
>beginning to look like we’re on the downside of rise and fall.

Amen to that, my friend, amen to that.

Arlin

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Date: Sun, 19 May 96 6:03:18 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Militia Watchdog
Lines: 11

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Steven D.
Sybesma) writes:

>
>You ever get the feeling this guy’s trying to sell refrigerators in
Alaska?
>
>What a dumb nut!

ice cubes to eskimoes, sand to Hawaiians, yep, that’s about it.

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:25:59 PDT 1996
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Date: Sun, 19 May 96 6:34:00 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Christian Identity
Lines: 19

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (JHistorian)
writes:

>Sorry, Arlin, no sale. Samuel Sherwood’s United States Militia
>Association does purport to be a “national militia” and does, in fact,
>count several of your so-called “local” militias under its national
>penumbra.
>
>Since you’re big into claiming maturity to admit errors, please do so.

Jim, even the fbi admits there are over 900 seperate militia units,
whatever Sam Sherwoods folks may claim, they represent no more than a tiny
fraction of that number. In any case they are still local units, and are
still under local control. Again, you need to start seeing individual
cases Jim, until you do, you’re going to keep trying to paint an extremely
complex picture as one geometric form, and it just don’t work that way.
The only error here is your continued attempt at gross overgeneralization.

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Date: Sun, 19 May 96 7:48:03 GMT
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Subject: Re: Revolutionary Majorities
Lines: 17

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (JHistorian)
writes:

>
>Why are the militia newsgroups so popular with white supremacists and
>neo-nazis?

I guess because they’re too stupid to realize we’re their enemies.

>And, why do Canadians think they really have anything meaningful to say
>about America’s domestic problems — after all, they haven’t exactly done
>real well solving their own.

I have no idea.

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Date: Sun, 19 May 96 7:48:11 GMT
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Subject: Re: Chechan Militia
Lines: 23

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (JHistorian)
writes:

>A while back, some amongst your militiaboy brethren sought to have me
>expelled from this newsgroup for my anti-militia statements, even though
I
>was (and still am) speaking directly to the issue of the hypocrisy of
>ethics amongst the militiaboys.

actually, you’re speaking to your own inability (or unwillingness) to
understand what we’re about…that does get old…but you also make a good
foil, so I certainly wouldn’t vote to expell you.

>Not long thereafter, some little militiaboy twit from Texas came on and
>said that he could come over here and “take care of my ass.”
>
>NOT one of you great patriots moved for HIS expulsion.

you’re right – we flamed him, and made it clear that was unacceptable.
In other words we corrected the problem. We’ve been correcting you for
quite a while now…someday you may prove as responsive as he was.

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:26:01 PDT 1996
Article: 19244 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sun, 19 May 96 8:33:30 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Pitcavage on Patriot Movement
Lines: 57

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (JHistorian)
writes:

>Get real, Arlin. There will never be any attempt at a confiscation of
>firearms, nor anything even remotely near. Banning 20 or so types of
>firearms does not even begin to approach a “confiscation.”

Careful Jim, you may be counting your chickens before they’re hatched, if
you think that’s all the farther the bad guys want to go.

>
>>>Again, your rhetorical slavering blinds you to certain very real
>>>facts to the contrary.
>>>
>>hmm, care to cite a couple?
>>
>Yes — 1) the security system and armed guard that are a part of the
>security features of the condo where I live; and, if the first should not
>prove sufficient, 2) one of Mr. Colt’s inventions.

Indeed, however it was not my rhetoric that blinded me, but the fact that
I live about a thousand miles a way from you and have no idea where your
condo is located…nice cheap shot Jim.

>But neither do they consider it operable, with 1/3 of the unit in
>resistance.

uh, no, *we’re* the resistance, I think you mean ‘in the defense’. That’s
fine, since we ain’t gonna be attacking them in any case.

>Truth of the matter is that, if you’re counting on the military to rally
>to the militiaboy cause, history demonstrates that you’re already in deep
>shit.

rally en mass? doubtful unless someone is stupid enough to call for UN
peacekeepers, and we certainly can’t bet on that. Nonetheless, the term
‘going south’ derives from what a majority of (among others) the Marines
did at the beginning of the Civil War.

>Oh, of course not, Arlin That is only the overwhelming
>”message” being spewed out by you and your brethren.
>
>Of course, you always preface it with something like “if we’re attacked”
>or “if our rights are further diminished,” but you never manage to draw
>the line as to specifcally what those are.

That would be tactically unwise, and would in any case depend on the
circumstances of the moment…we’re very democratic Jim, and agreement
takes time…nonetheless, as Mike V. pointed out last week, we will insure
that we are fired upon *twice* in front of video cameras, before we return
the favor…never fear, you will have plenty of documentary evidence.

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:26:02 PDT 1996
Article: 19246 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sun, 19 May 96 5:48:14 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: More gun bans proposed
Lines: 32

In article <[email protected]>, wayne wattley
writes:

>The Brady Bill did only good, it prevented
>60,000 criminal offenders and crazies from having weapons which very
>likely would have been used in criminal activity. This for some of us
>happens to be good news.

actually that’s not true. of the 60,000 initial denials, something like
93% were eventually approved on appeal, as they had been erronious to
begin with. Of course hci and company never were interested in reporting
the facts, so they use the 60K number anyway….

>
>Gun restrictions are geared only toward keeping weapons of mass
>distruction out of the hands of criminal offenders and crazies, the most
>dangerous in our society.

uh, you’re going to have to back that up with examples…also, militarily,
and in international law, the term ‘weapon of mass destruction’ refers to
something like poison gas or a nuclear bomb…I don’t think either one of
those has yet been touched on by gun control laws.

>I don’t feel theatened for my right to bear arms, however I certainly
>feel theatened by those of you who want to put weapons of mass
>distruction into the hands of dangerous lunatics.

hey, I’d be just as happy if *nobody* had nukes, okay? no problem with
getting rid of them…

Arlin Adams

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:26:02 PDT 1996
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militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sun, 19 May 96 6:33:53 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: What is your view on women in the military?
Lines: 48

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Les
Griswold) writes:

>> actually, the term I usually use for you guys is ‘nazidiots’ but I was
>> trying to be polite. Your views on biology are as warped as everything
>> else in your philosophy. Now don’t get me wrong, I understand that
your
>> primary concern is avoiding genetic crossbreeding, so you are forced to
>> produce large families, thus condemning any women who buy into your
>> spending a good percentage of their time pregnant. However, attempting
to
>> justify that in biological terms is at best nonsensical. You’re trying
to
>> out produce all of the rest of us, Les, and *that* is a simple
numerical
>> impossiblity. In the meanwhile, however, you are forced to maintain
rigid
>> gender roles within your own groups, in order to try to maintain group
>> stability.
>
>Funny, that: you have no trouble stereotyping us, yet you sorts ALWAYS
>whine about what a mortal sin stereotyping is.

Why Les, you’ve been reading my posts. That’s okay, I’ve been reading
yours, and the others too. I’ve also waded through a bunch of national
socialist nonsense, even got through mein kampf…. Make no mistake white
supremacy in *all* it’s variations is antithetical to the moral and
ethical basis on which this country was founded. Your beliefs are
antithetical to democracy generally, and the Constitution, specifically.
Most importantly, to me, the entire supremacy movement is the spiritual
antithesis of Judeo-Christian thought. That *is* why some of your folks
have been fooling around with the old religions, you know. In doing so
they sow their own destruction, which is their choice, but please don’t
expect anyone here to respect it – least of all me. Stereotyping?
Prejudice? oh Heavens no, it’s much more than that – you are the enemy,
you simply are a much less effective one than the runaway federal
bureaucracy. It would probably be good for you not to try not to forget
that. I never do, nor do I intend to let anyone else forget it either.

>We aren’t “terrified” of you; you need to get a grip on your ego. We DO
>tend to look at all of our enemies, current and future, real and
>potential, with considerably more balance than you guys do.

hmm, we outnumber you a thousandfold, since many of us are caucasian you
can’t really ever be sure you haven’t been infiltrated by us, and you know
that we will be far less tollerant of you than the current regime, and you
*aren’t* terrified? more fools you.

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:26:03 PDT 1996
Article: 19289 of misc.activism.militia
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militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sun, 19 May 96 6:33:45 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Christian Identity
Lines: 20

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (JHistorian)
writes:

>* certainly any group may have ‘bad apples’, what is uncalled
>*for is when a small number of bad apples are mischaracterized
>* as representing the entire group. That’s been my point, all along.
>
>That “point” of yours doesn’t seem to stop you from mischaracterizing the
>entirety of the federal government because of the actions of its few “bad
>apples.”

As far as I have been able to determine, the entire fe(de)ral bureaucracy
is unresponsive at best. That point aside, we have stated from the
beginning that our concerns deal with those specific groups, such as the
atf and the irs, which operate in direct contravention to the original
intent of the Constitution. Only mikey and psycho dave have ever tried to
blame the whole government equally for the terrorist acts of a few small
portions thereof.

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:26:04 PDT 1996
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militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sun, 19 May 96 6:33:24 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: “Worst Nightmare”
Lines: 105

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (JHistorian)
writes:

>> Harry Bibee didn’t threaten mark.
>
> To quote yourself: It’s the old ‘walks like a duck/talks like a
>duck’ routine …..
>
> I gather that if several Guido types walked into your business and
>told you about how dangerous it was to be in business and not have
>insurance, you’d think, “Gee, what nice men.”

That was most certainly neither the stated message nor the intent of the
Declaration…although that makes *two* people (you and mark) out of all
those I’ve run into so far, including the liberals that I showed it to,
who mistook it for a threat, after being given more than 30 seconds to
consider it. The Declaration was specifically phrased to connote that the
militias would act *if* there was an unconstitutional use of force against
another civilian target a la the Waco Massacre. I’ll ask you the same
question that mark ducked when I asked him: when, in your mind, does a
promise become a threat? If the Declaration appeared threatening to you,
you must be terrified by criminal law….

> That being established, one wonders why y’all have so much problem
>with someone saying things about you and y’all seem to have no problem
>with applying labels, ad homimen, etc. tactly the point that I have been
>making all along hereon — the ONLY value to militiaboy ethics is gross
>hypocrisy.

Jim, the problem seems to be that you attempt to see others as cliche’s.
The discomfort you feel in dealing with us is the cognitive dissonance
caused by the fact that no one here except mikey *fits* your cliche’s. If
there is any hypocrisy here, it is in your inability to respond to my
points concerning mark with other than personal attacks.

> Well, let me answer by feeding you the same gruel that you try to
>feed to everyone else: “Anti-militia world” is made up of many disparate
>groups, over which I — nor any single other person — have control.

indeed that is so, yet you seem to see the members of the militia movement
as falling within a single stereotype of your own making. Should we then
treat you differently? If so, why? I’m just using your own arguments
against you – have you no effective defense?

>Yes, of course. Keep saying it long enough and you’ll cnvince
>yourself. You do not convince me, however, that you have the integrity
to
>reply to the allegations with anything other than falling back and
relying
>upon the same, tired, worn-out parrot squawking.

No Jim, I did reply, and used logical arguments…your own prejudice
simply keeps you from looking at those arguments rationally.

>>uh, would you say Billy Jeff, Aunt Janet, and Uncle Louie (Freeh) are on
>>your side?
>
> Of course not. That you ASSUME that I do is simply yet one more
bit
>of prejudice from the jaundiced militaboy eye.

no I didn’t assume, that’s why I asked if you would say they were on your
side…you have to read what I actually write, Jim; not just what you wish
was written there.

>>Do you have the personal integrity to admit one is a political
>>hack and the other two have strong neofascist tendencies?
>
> ALL politicians are political hacks, by definition.

ah, so we agree on this point.

> Is there some reason that you think it necessary to constantly
>restate the obvious?

they’re the same obvious answers to your same obvious questions, that’s
all.

> Who’s ignoring them? Over FOUR years ago I told you militiaboy
>nitwits that their shenanigans would only result in even more draconian
>legislation, not less. Y’all stupidly rattled your sabres and — voila!
>– it came to pass.

You are ignoring them…unless you’re doing something to reverse the
current situation. If you choose to cower before the federal government,
well and good, but don’t expect us to, because we do not now, nor will we
in the future. If this is your real issue here Jim, then you’re arguing
with the wrong group of people – many of our folks have already made
significant sacrifices – jobs, marriages, and the like, and many more will
in the future…people who are prepared to make such sacrifices will not
ever deal in your terms of ‘go along and get along’…it don’t work that
way.

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:26:05 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sun, 19 May 96 6:33:13 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: request from Arlin
Lines: 7

Hi Janet,

Thanks! I’ll respond in detail in email.

Best
Arlin

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militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sun, 19 May 96 6:33:05 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: “Worst Nightmare”
Lines: 37

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (JHistorian)
writes:

>
> You presume everyone and everything to be a threat until proven
>otherwise?

no, that’s not what I said. I said that I presume anyone who has stated
and demonstrated hostile intent is actually a threat until proven
otherwise…I realize you have a hard time seeing people as individuals,
rather than cliche’s but you could at least do me the courtesy of quoting
my post in context.

> By that criteria, I’d say that militiaboys have, in fact,
>demonstrated themselves to be a threat — as Pitcavage and myself have
>been pubicly and repeatedly threatened (right here in fact). Want me to
>repost the messages from the little twit who styled himself a member of
>the Texas “militia,” so as to jog your memory?

If someone threatened you and you did nothing about it, then that was
foolish indeed.

> However, it is noted that in the process of peforming your
attempted
>segue, you still have not answered the question — which, to tell you the
>truth, I do.

yes, I did. I demonstrated hostile intent to this movement and it’s
members on the part of pitcavage…any person *demonstrating* such must be
considered hostile until proven otherwise. Ya gotta stop thinking in
cliche’s Jim, and start paying attention to specifics…

BTW, the mistake in question was when you confused mikey’s threat with
mark’s reference to the Declaration…

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:26:06 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sun, 19 May 96 14:48:35 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Revolutionary Majorities
Lines: 17

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (MMedi13720)
writes:

>Do you perchance mean Les Griswold ? He joined
>misc.survivalism once, and damn near ruined the best thread on composting
>that we ever had, until we got rid of him.

hmm, let’s see, nazis…compost…nazis…compost…did you make him wear
a red hat so you could tell him from the compost?

>Oh well, compost happens.

yeah, unless it gets too hot πŸ™‚

Best
Arlin

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:26:07 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sun, 19 May 96 14:48:42 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: What is your view on women in the military?
Lines: 38

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Les
Griswold) writes:

>Well, THAT’s an interesting proposition! I’ve yet to hear my first
denial
>by a white-supremacist group that their members have ideas similar to
>those of many militias,

Only two possible reasons for this:
1. You’re lying. As your compatriot hub*r has readily admitted, you
folks have no problem with lying to achieve your goals.
or
2. You’re ignorant. If you’ve read nothing of the underlying beliefs and
motivations – reinstitution of individual liberty for ALL Americans (that
includes those who aren’t white males) and reinstatement of the
Constitution *without* all of the nonrepresentative bureaucratic overlays,
then you really shouldn’t be trying to discuss these matters with us.

I’d say it’s probably a combination of the two.

>Please note that my use of the term “militialoons” is by no means meant
to
>refer to all, or even many, militia types, just the ones who think that
>they should be dabbling in politics.

ah, now HERE we have an illustration of the profound depth of your
ignorance. You are Canadian, but even north of the border, you can still
access the basic documents on which our cause is based – our Declaration
of Independence, our Constitution, and our Bill of Rights. The entire
basis of the militia movement is POLITICAL. The entire membership of the
movement is drawn from the politically disaffected. We are not ‘dabbling’
in politics, we are inherently an integral part of American politics.
That you do not comprehend this, shows that you are either incapable of
understanding, or too lazy to bother trying…either way you are less, not
more, because of it.

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Date: Mon, 20 May 96 4:33:12 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Pitcavage on Patriot Movement
Lines: 15

> Tweren’t a cheap shot. It is rather clear, I think, that you and
>your milita brethren develop cognates in terms of ideological tenets only

certainly there is a strong ideological element within the movement.

>– according to you, one who thinks the milita movement is illegitimate
>must therefore also be a (1) raging statist, (2) in the employ of the
>federal government in some form or fashion, and (3) an advocate of a
total
>ban on firearms.
>
> I am none of the three.

GOOD FOR YOU! You’re in a category by yourself, Jim!

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:26:08 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Mon, 20 May 96 4:33:21 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Jewish Conspiracy Proof? –>>
Lines: 34

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (John
Dulaney) writes:

>
> Please point out where the article is unfactual.

Hi John,

NONE of the economic analysis is factual.

NONE of the educational analysis is factual.

I will leave it to someone with more political and historical background
than myself to tear apart the other fallicies.

Interestingly, this piece of trash is actually a parody of itself, in at
least one place – notice how the author condemns all movies and all
television at the beginning of the article, and then further down directly
references a made for television movie and a major Hollywood production as
*factually supporting* his arguments…sheesh…the author has the
consistency of vapor…I won’t say what kind….

Also, of interest, various parts of this (infiltration of the government,
infiltration of banks) have been used with almost the same wording since
the 16th century…these nazidiots aren’t even original…. I suggest you
pick up a couple of good books on the development and use of propaganda,
read them, and then go back over this piece. That’s probably the best way
for you to see just how fictional it really is.

Arlin

Oh, and you can keep the hundred bucks, as long as you promise not to give
it to the morons who sent you this to begin with.

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:26:09 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Mon, 20 May 96 2:33:32 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Christian Identity
Lines: 30

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (JHistorian)
writes:

>As far as I have been able to determine, the entire fe(de)ral bureaucracy
>is unresponsive at best.
>———-
> I’d do some work on ability to determine, were I you — the FAA
>moved within the hour, in the recent ValueJet crash; the court inssued an
>injunction against the enforcement of the so-called Cyberspace law,
within
>72 hours. Need more examples?

neither of those instances were responses to the needs of the people,
rather they were politically expedient reactions – in the case of the FAA
they must be careful to prove that the fact that the aircraft in question
had not fallen out of the sky due to carelessness on their part, in the
case of the CDA, the clintonistas had to prove that even though billy jeff
signed it into law, he didn’t really mean it. You need to work on
differentiating between political expediency and governmental
responsiveness.

>Only mikey and psycho dave have ever tried to blame the whole government
>equally for the terrorist acts of a few small portions thereof.
>———-
>That is not at all the truth, Arlin. You obviously do not bother to read
>this newsgroup.

now *there* I would like to see some examples.

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:26:10 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Mon, 20 May 96 2:33:26 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: What is your view on women in the military?
Lines: 24

>you really enjoy this, don’t you?

Betchyurass, les.

This is probably the most
>attention that’s ever been paid to you, isn’t it?

No, I’m doing it because you folks rarely hang around long enough to be
confronted…

> Why am I getting the
>impression that you’re tolerated but not really taken seriously, here on
>misc.activism.militia?

Because you don’t understand what’s going on here.

> Regardless, I won’t waste any more bandwidth with
>you;

*sigh* happens every time someone shines a light on you….

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:26:11 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Mon, 20 May 96 3:48:06 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: exposing the myths.Dulaney rebutted
Lines: 9

Hi David,

Very well written post…it never ceases to amaze me that grownups still
fall for that nazidiot propaganda, but I guess some still do…naive
folks, I imagine, but it’s good to see factual rebuttal of their nonsense.

Best
Arlin

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:26:11 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Mon, 20 May 96 13:18:21 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Jewish Conspiracy Proof? –>>
Lines: 61

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (John
Dulaney) writes:

>: In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (John
>: Dulaney) writes:
>
>: >
>: > Please point out where the article is unfactual.
>
>: Hi John,
>: NONE of the economic analysis is factual.
>: NONE of the educational analysis is factual.
>
> Oh.
> Well.
> I see.
> That is More than sufficient proof for me.
>
>

Okay, I tried to be nice. Let’s take the educational analysis, since I
just happen to have a M. Ed. I can do this relatively quickly. To be
specific: Phonics is indeed taught in a majority of US classrooms, both
public and private. There are two major approaches, one uses textbooks
and the other (Whole Language) uses ‘word sounds’ while reading real
books. Both are phonics. Both are currently in use. Look-Say pedagogy
was an experimental system which was tried for a while in the ’60’s and
’70’s. It is NOT currently in use anywhere. It never WAS used in more
than about 1/3 of the public schools, because from the very start there
were problems – it works very well with about 50% of the kids, but doesn’t
work at all with the other half. Despite a LOT of research into the
problem, there was never a firm enough result to allow teachers to
determine *which* students would learn from the system, so it was dropped.
The statement that ‘schools are more interested in handing out condoms
than studying mathematics’ made by the author of that racist tract you
posted, has no basis in fact, and as you’ll notice he doesn’t even attempt
to support it.

Now let’s talk about one of the real problems with education today –
parents. (hmm, bet that got some folk’s attention). In recent years
discipline in schools has deteriorated radically, due in large part to the
total lack of support (indeed often open hostility) of parents, as well as
a total lack of discipline at home. I am aware of entire classrooms of
kids whose ONLY experience with ANY form of discipline comes
*while*they*are*in*school*. What this means, in real terms, is that most
public school teachers must spend at least 50 percent (and sometimes as
high as 90 percent) of their classroom time in disciplinary
actions…guess how much time that leaves for teaching? One school here
in the metro area issued FOUR THOUSAND suspensions last year, all for
violent or illegal activity. How much learning do you think was
accomplished by the rest of the kids, in that kind of environment? You’re
right – not much!

Unless and until parents once again consistently accept their
responsiblities for disciplining their children *all*of*the*time, this
will not change…

Now, do you really want me to go on to the other issues?

Arlin H. Adams

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:26:12 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Mon, 20 May 96 13:18:06 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Christian Identity
Lines: 28

In article <[email protected]>, Robert Ireland
writes:

>I will even go so far as to reassess my judgement when I hear a majority
of
>the
>government calling for that proscecution.

Hi Robert,

Uh, the thing about it, Robert, is that the entire governmental
bureaucracy is structured so as to make it nearly impossible for any one
part of it (say, oh Dept of the Interior) to even be aware of what another
part (like Treasury, which is responsible for ATF) is doing, much less
have any influence over it. 99.9% of the bureaucrats outside the
immediate agency involved probably wouldn’t even know what to do if they
saw someone from another agency committing a blatantly criminal act. Nor
would they have any real influence if they did attempt to do something.
The whole system is structured to prevent it.

Don’t get me wrong, we need to hold the entire chain of command
responsible for the actions of folks like SA Horuchi, but much beyond that
and we will find ourselves casting blame on people who are as powerless as
anyone else *outside* the immediate agency involved.

Best
Arlin

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:26:13 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Mon, 20 May 96 13:18:14 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Christian Identity
Lines: 15

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (frankenchrist)
writes:

>Actually it’s been proven true with the passing of the socalled
>antiterrorism bill.The 2nd amendment RKBA will be next if
>militia goons continue to make bombs and kill people.

Hi frankie,

all that ‘proved’ was that it was politically expedient for some
politicians to use the militias as a whipping boy…it proved nothing else
factually.

Arlin

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:26:13 PDT 1996
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militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Mon, 20 May 96 22:18:04 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Enough talking with Freeman! Time for action!
Lines: 9

Tim,

1. The FM have gas masks too.

2. How many federal agents would you be willing to sacrifice to
accomplish this?

Arlin Adams

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:26:14 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 21 May 96 0:18:03 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: The Spies Club
Lines: 14

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:

>I think the spies in M.A.M.–Mike Chapman, Mark Pitcavage, Mike Medintz,
Mike
>
>Vanderboegh and Al Sharpton–should get together and bend some elbows. I
>vote
>that Al Sharpton buy the beer.

BEER??? You guys get beer? hey, how come nobody ever mentioned this
fringe benefit thing before??…uh, what kinda beer does Al Sharpton
drink??hmm…maybe I should think about this some more……

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:26:15 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 21 May 96 11:48:03 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: @@@@You people are nothing but [email protected]@@@@@@@
Lines: 10

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Typhanee)
writes:

>A good shot of Thorazine would fix
>you right up!

LOL! yes Typhanee, but would it do anything to improve his vocabulary? πŸ™‚

Arlin

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:26:16 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 21 May 96 11:48:16 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Jewish Militia in NYC
Lines: 15

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Tanker 06)
writes:

>
>>I remember reading a magazine put out by a group I believe were called,
>>”Jews for the Preservation of Firearms”.
>
> Does anyone have an address and/or phone # for them?

JPFO
2872 S. Wentworth Ave.
Milwaukee, WI 53207
(414) 769-0760

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Date: Tue, 21 May 96 10:33:06 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: The Spies Club
Lines: 12

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Walter
Ulrich) writes:

>
>Hmmmm, Sharpton probably drinks Anchor Steam Old Foghorn
>Barleywine Style Ale.
>
>

WHOOSH! my theory is: never drink a beer that you can’t pronounce after
the first three or four πŸ™‚

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:26:17 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 21 May 96 11:03:04 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Can an unarmed person be a patriot?
Lines: 25

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Ed
Pearlstein) writes:

>Can
> one be a patriot while not being armed and not believing that one should

> be armed? More extremely, can one be a patriot while being an out and
out
> pacifist?

Hello Ed,

The answer to your questions is Yes! Certainly!

Religious pacifists have acted in patriotic, sometimes heroic manners
throughout US history. One need only look at the Conscientious Objectors
who became combat medics in WWII, Korea, and Vietnam, to see that courage
and fortitude are not the sole province of the armed combatant.

why do you ask?

Arlin H. Adams

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:26:18 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 21 May 96 15:48:05 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: @@@@You people are nothing but [email protected]@@@@@@@
Lines: 14

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Mo10Cav) writes:

>I sez: Well, I finally lived long enough to see a leftist utter the
>(para)phrase: “America, Love It or Leave It.” Doubtless this fool wasn’t
>even a gleam in his welfare daddy’s eye in the Sixties, but the irony is
>delicious nonetheless. — Mike Vanderboegh, 1ACR
>
>

Yep, militia as counterculture! dig it!

Arlin
showing his age πŸ™‚

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:26:18 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 21 May 96 14:33:27 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: ALERT
Lines: 11

1. anybody know who this guy is?

2. as previously reported, the rumors concerning leave cancellation at
Dept of Justice have never been confirmed.

3. there hasn’t been any appropriate media propaganda prep for
anything…which is something the current administration dearly loves….

skeptically,
Arlin Adams

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:26:19 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 21 May 96 19:48:04 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Jewish Conspiracy Proof? –>>
Lines: 17

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (JHistorian)
writes:

> Yeah, that’s what I like about you, Arlin — you always have such
>fact-filled rebuttals which speak directly to the question posed to you.
>
> NOT.

cheap shot, Jim. I was trying to irk the guy just enough to think about
that piece of garbage, without embarassing himself any further. If you’ve
read my second post on the topic, you’ll have discovered I found that it
was impossible to avoid making him look even more the fool than he already
appeared to be. Which, of course, brings up the question why a historian
such as yourself didn’t jump all over that garbage to begin with…hmmm?

Arlin

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:26:20 PDT 1996
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Date: Tue, 21 May 96 19:33:05 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: When Should the Talking Stop?
Lines: 9

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:

>how much longer should the FBI wait before
>taking action to arrest the Freemen?

Just let’em sit. They certainly aren’t going any where, and eventually
it’s going to sink in, even to them, that the game ain’t worth the candle.

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:26:21 PDT 1996
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Posted-Date: 22 May 1996 04:56:53 -0400
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Wed, 22 May 96 9:03:11 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Real Emergency, or what? Info Needed!
Lines: 10

Hi David,

you have any background on this…sounds like somebody’s been watching
w-a-y too much of the science fiction channel….it’s also written by
somebody with some newspaper/magazine background, from the construction of
the text…might be a stupid media person trying to bait a response out of
one of the local militias in the hopes of generating a story…

Arlin

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:26:22 PDT 1996
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militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Wed, 22 May 96 8:48:06 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: AMMO: .223 “Battle Packs”
Lines: 11

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (rmplstlskn)
writes:

>I’m not sure, but isn’t that .223 in plastic battle packs a South Africa
>product? AUG puts out a pack like that, but the SA stuff seems to be most

>common.

there was some IMI stuff floating around out here a couple of months ago
as well.

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:26:22 PDT 1996
Article: 19597 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Wed, 22 May 96 13:48:04 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Freemen or Wooses?
Lines: 24

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Roger
Erdman) writes:

> why don’t they act like
>real men! Send the women and children out of harm’s way, and
>then “get it on” with the Feds, if they really have the guts
>to.

Hi Roger,

1. What do you mean by the term ‘real men’?

2. Do you believe women should be allowed to defend themselves? Do you
believe women have free will, just the same as men?

3. If they were to ‘get it on’ with the feds, what next? Do they just
keep shooting at the feds until they run out of ammo/die? If they did
manage to win in the tactical situation, what would be their next logical
move? What would be the feds’ next logical move?

Interested in your thoughts on this,

Arlin Adams

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:26:23 PDT 1996
Article: 19598 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Wed, 22 May 96 13:48:27 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Get used to it…You will lose all your rights sooner or later and there’…
Lines: 5

It’s nice to see we’ve got the statists so upset that they have to spend
*hours* constructing trolls! πŸ™‚ Let’s just hope they continue with this
same sort of waste of time, as it keeps them out of trouble….

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:26:24 PDT 1996
Article: 19599 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Wed, 22 May 96 13:49:25 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: ALERT
Lines: 13

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (JHistorian)
writes:

>Texas militia be on your highest alert. Reason to believe Texas
>is aa special target becasause of secession talk. Any info on these
>reports please post immediately.
>==========
> Your Prozac dosage needs adjusting again. Go to your doctor
>immediately.

to heck with the Prozac! how did he get out of the straightjacket and
over to the computer?

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:26:25 PDT 1996
Article: 19600 of misc.activism.militia
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militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Wed, 22 May 96 13:48:13 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Starving Iraqis
Lines: 77

Brolin, you didn’t really think people were going to believe your nazidiot
propaganda in this newsgroup, did you? “Ingrid” indeed! I didn’t know
you were into cross dressing, but that’s your concern….Let’s look at
your current pack of lies:

>In contrast to Iraq, Israel mercilessly suppresses Christianity in her
>conquered territories,

This is not true. The Israeli government supports the Christian presence
throughout their country. Christianity is not suppressed. What this
person is confusing is that certain of the Lebanese warlords style
themselves as ‘christian’ although they kill ANYONE who questions their
actions, attack other ‘christian’ warlords, the Israelis, Lebanese
peasants, and basically anyone they think might have something they want.
By their actions (which is what God judges) they are not Christian; just
the same as the so-called ‘christian’ identity movement in this country is
not Christian.

> destroys Christian Holy Places

This is not true. Israel protects the Holy Places of *All* religions,
including the Dome of the Rock, a Moslem Holy Place which due to the
number pilgrims visiting it is probably the biggest security headache in
the entire country.

> (including the
>Biblical village of Emmaeus)

The *Biblical* village of Emmaeus is somewhere between 8-12 feet UNDER the
current ground level of the site…get real!

> and even takes Christian lives (including that
>of the kindly Dr. Mattar, Keeper of the Garden Tomb in Jerusalem who was
>killed in cold blood by the first Israeli soldiers to visit the Tomb
after
>the seizure of the Christian Quarter).

another made-up psuedofact…no evidence to support this whatsoever.

>I remember the start of the Gulf War very well because that was the first
>time that I noticed General Colen Powell. I will never forget the look
on
>his face when he said of the Iraqi: “We will surround them. And we will
>kill them.”
>
>Do those two sentences qualify as the Final Solution for the people of
>Iraq?

No, nor were they intended to. They WERE, however, intended to be the
Final Solution to the Iraqi Army which was occupying Kuwait at the time.
It’s interesting how consistently you people have to pull quotes out of
context in order to propagate your lies.

NOW let’s talk about the Iraqi government which:

continues to spend it’s money on developing nuclear weapons, rather than
feed it’s people.
continues to spend it’s money on developing chemical weapons, rather than
feed it’s people,
continues to rearm it’s oversized military, rather than feed it’s people,
summarily executes anyone voicing discontent with the way things are
going.

Gee, they sound just like nazis, no *wonder* you like them! Brolin, or
Ingrid, or whoever you want to call yourself today, there is one concept
you need to understand with crystal clarity: WE ARE YOUR ENEMIES. You
nazis, c.i., and any other white supremacist organizations are BY
DEFINTION operating in direct contradiction to the principles embodied in
the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, and the Bill of Rights.
Because of this, you are anathema to the Constitutional Militias, and
will meet with nothing but hostility from us. You are neither strong
enough to overwhelm us, nor smart enough to out wit us…therefore your
only course of action is to quit while you are behind. The sooner you
realize this, the better it will be for you.

Arlin H. Adams

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:26:25 PDT 1996
Article: 19601 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Wed, 22 May 96 17:33:11 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: censors on both sides
Lines: 14

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (JBrolin546)
writes:

>From: Anton \ Internet: ([email protected])
>
>The following articles appeared in this week’s issue (5/3/96) of _The
>Week In Germany_ (http://www.germany-info.org/whats-new/):

Brolin, this nazidiot mindset of yours is beginning to affect your
perceptions of geography – this is a newsgroup for *American* militias –
if you want to pout because the German government is censoring your
ravings, take it up with them. Oh, I forgot, that would require
courage…never mind…

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:26:26 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Wed, 22 May 96 16:03:35 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Farrakhan on way to empowerment
Lines: 14

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (JBrolin546)
writes:

>The Hohenhausen Guild has had substantial success in bringing together
>Arab, African-American, Asian and White student union groups at
>Universities around the country for the common cause

More lies, Brolin, the hohenhausen guild is a white supremacist group
which, other than a few misfits and skinheads, has accumulated no one.
Look, if you morons want to hang out in your own newsgroups, fine, but all
you will gain from intruding in this one is rejection…

Arlin H. Adams

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:26:27 PDT 1996
Article: 19609 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Wed, 22 May 96 17:33:04 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: @@@@You people are nothing but [email protected]@@@@@@@
Lines: 10

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (MMedi13720)
writes:

> How about “Anchors Aweigh” by Sinead
>O’Connor? (Arrgh, that’s a scary thought.)
>
>

Now THAT is truly warped! πŸ™‚

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:26:28 PDT 1996
Article: 19617 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Wed, 22 May 96 22:33:06 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: @@@@You people are nothing but [email protected]@@@@@@@
Lines: 8

The subtle wit, the extensive vocabulary, the inclusive philosophy…why
it must be another college undergraduate who just finished finals!

Cheez, oh well, two more weeks and then we’ve got until September when the
universities start handing out free undergraduate accounts again (*sigh*)

Arlin

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:26:28 PDT 1996
Article: 19618 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Wed, 22 May 96 22:48:04 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: When Should the Talking Stop?
Lines: 15

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (PGISSource)
writes:

>It gives the
>Freemen what they claim they want, a sovereign territory. It also
provides
>a good testing ground which could be leased to technology companies and
>might even eventually recover all the money expended and lost by victims.
>Or would this fall into the inhumane treatment clause?

I dunno, Wiz, remember that movie THE MOUSE THAT ROARED…all they’d have
to do then is declare war on the US, lose, and then file for aid to
rebuild their country…sounds like another foreign aid debacle in the
making to me. :->

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:26:29 PDT 1996
Article: 19641 of misc.activism.militia
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militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Thu, 23 May 96 7:33:05 GMT
Message-ID: <8328367[email protected]>
Subject: Re: When Should the Talking Stop?
Lines: 14

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Daniel Hartung)
writes:

>
>Pssssst. Tom. The local pervert just kidnapped your five-year-old
>daughter and took her across state lines.
>
>Change your opinion?
>
>

pssst, Daniel, the FBI has more than 30 agents! no really! have had for
a while now, you’d be amazed – radios and everything…

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:26:30 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Thu, 23 May 96 10:33:42 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: HEH HEH BUNCH OF PARANOID IDIOTS
Lines: 7

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Wes) writes:

>.like I said before…you
>don’t like it…there’s the back door! see ya!

oh, but Wes, *we* aren’t leaving :->

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:26:30 PDT 1996
Article: 19670 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Thu, 23 May 96 14:18:05 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Freemen soon to be Deadmen
Lines: 8

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Michael
Hollomon, Jr.) writes:

> And, as with all such persons, if
>they *refuse* to come out alive, there’s only one other alternative.

only to the unimaginative or the impatient Michael.

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:26:31 PDT 1996
Article: 19672 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Thu, 23 May 96 14:18:30 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Get used to it…You will lose all your rights sooner or later and there’s
Lines: 29

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Eric) writes:

>
> Whoever wrote this “Get used to it ..”, is extremely ignorant, assumes

>way too much, and is very dangerous. The subject title is very
>offensive and a very bad choice of words.
>

Hi Eric,

All the original poster is doing is attempting to justify his own lack of
moral fiber. You see, He wants to believe that he is helpless – it’s so
much easier than trying to do anything about the current situation.
Unfortunately for him, *we* are doing something. Now that implies that
people *can* change the situation, which in turn shows him up as the lazy
coward he is. Of course he doesn’t like that, so he tries to assuage his
ego by lecturing us on how ‘wrong’ we are.

In the end, when he figures out that his cause is hopeless, he will be
caught in a dichotomy – either he can run away again (just as he’s run
away from his responsibilities in regard to maintaining his own liberty),
which would be admitting we were right – or – he can join us, which would
be tough, because it would be admitting we were right, as well. Should be
interesting, don’t you think?

Best
Arlin

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:26:32 PDT 1996
Article: 19679 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Thu, 23 May 96 14:33:06 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: GUNS GUNS ARE GOOD FOR YOUR HEART!!!
Lines: 19

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (MorleyEd)
writes:

>
>Every one needs guns! HEE HAW!!! A PERFECT WORLD!!!! WOULD HAVE LOTS OF
>GUNS!!!! JUST LIKE BACK IN VIETNAM!!! HEE HAW!!!

Hi again Ed,

A couple more points to ponder:

1. There is no such thing as a perfect world in this life, there’s only
the best we can make of the one we have.

2. In an imperfect world, such as this, defense against tyranny is
essential.

Arlin

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:26:34 PDT 1996
Article: 19696 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Thu, 23 May 96 13:18:27 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: @@@@You people are nothing but [email protected]@@@@@@@
Lines: 14

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (JHistorian)
writes:

> And, unless I miss my guess, you and your militaboy brethren have
>not exactly won the hearts and minds of the American people.

not all, yet, but we’re getting there. πŸ™‚

> In other words, PR ain’t you strong suit, is it, Arlin?

Depends on whom I’m playing to, Jim…and to what purpose. But then *I*
have more than *one* area of expertise :->

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:26:34 PDT 1996
Article: 19701 of misc.activism.militia
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militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Thu, 23 May 96 14:18:52 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Pitcavage on Patriot Movement
Lines: 22

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Michael
Hollomon, Jr.) writes:

>That’s pretty tough talk from a “disabled” veteran, Arlin.

It’s a simple numbers game Michael, and the longer we have to work on it,
the better off we’ll be. As far as tough talk, you’ll notice that at no
time in my post did I state that I expected to live through such a
confrontation. My disability limits my mobility somewhat – keeping up
with a unit moving through the woods, while carrying my fair share of the
load, would be nearly impossible. So if and when it comes down to an
armed confrontation, I’ll end up doing my communications thing for my
folks, until the bad guys show up at my door, and then I guess I’ll just
have to exercise the courage of my convictions.

Arlin H. Adams

“Is Life so dear, is Peace so sweet, as to be bought at the price of
chains and slavery?
Forbid it Almighty God! I know not what course others may take, but as
for me, Give Me Liberty, or Give Me Death!” – Patrick Henry

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:26:35 PDT 1996
Article: 19702 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Thu, 23 May 96 14:19:00 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Enough talking with Freeman! Time for action!
Lines: 18

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Michael
Hollomon, Jr.) writes:

>On Mon, 20 May 96 22:18:04 GMT, [email protected] (AHABIZ) wrote:
>
>>2. How many federal agents would you be willing to sacrifice to
>>accomplish this?
>>

>
>Aw, that’s an easy one: As many as it takes.

Hmm, interesting. So you’d be willing to have their blood on your hands
for sending them into an unneccessary dynamic entry situation, simply to
assuage your patience? I take it you don’t know very many people in law
enforcement, eh?

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:26:36 PDT 1996
Article: 19705 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Thu, 23 May 96 14:19:07 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Jesus and Militias
Lines: 19

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (MorleyEd)
writes:

>He would
>have walked on out to the FBI and said “I love you!” Ain’t that the truth
>folks?

Yo! Ed!

Two points to ponder:

1. He was God, which among other things means that stuff like bullets
wouldn’t bother him anyway.

2. WE AREN’T God, which among other things means stuff like bullets WOULD
bother us…

Arlin

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:26:37 PDT 1996
Article: 19717 of misc.activism.militia
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militia-request
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Date: Fri, 24 May 96 2:18:04 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Jesus and Militias
Lines: 15

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Walter
Ulrich) writes:

>
>Well, if the whole universe is God then, ipso facto, all the subsets of
the
>universe are parts of God.

honestly Walter, I wasn’t trying to start a theological debate…and the
particular part of the universe that is *me* tends to bleed when the skin
is punctured, you know? sheesh, sorry if you thought my remarks were in
bad taste.

Arlin

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:26:37 PDT 1996
Article: 19720 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Fri, 24 May 96 2:48:14 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Jesus and Militias
Lines: 10

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Janet
L. Littler) writes:

> GOD GAVE YOU A MIND HE EXPECTS YOU TO USE IT!

Absolutely! second the motion!

Arlin

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:26:38 PDT 1996
Article: 19733 of misc.activism.militia
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militia-request
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Date: Fri, 24 May 96 3:33:03 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Militiadermy?
Lines: 10

In article <[email protected]>, Fish writes:

>
>By “those responsible” I assume you mean Randy Weaver and Kevin Harris
(Ruby
>Ridge), and David Koresh.

nice troll fish. Are you then suggesting that what the government did at
both Ruby Ridge and Waco were legitimate actions?

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:26:39 PDT 1996
Article: 19737 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Fri, 24 May 96 6:03:03 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Mafia is militia?
Lines: 71

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] writes:

>I have looked in several dictionaries and I can find no definition of
militia that
>fits the paramilitary groups that have orgqnizing in this country. They
>expropriated the term militia to hide beneath the mantle of the 2nd
ammendment ot the
>constitution where they have no right to be.

Interesting. Could you expand a bit on what your perception of us might
be, that conflicts with the more traditional definitions of the word
‘militia’? Also, would you expand on how you came to determine that we
are not covered by the Bill of Rights? I’m not clear on either of these
points from your post.

The definition that best fits these groups is street gangs or organized
>crime.

In what sense? please explain how you came to this conclusion, your
rationale is not clear from this statement.

>It would appear that someone has been reading their history and thinks
they have
>found a way to copy the plan developed by Lenin and followed by
Bolsheviks, fascists,
>and Nazis to use a small party to control a majority government by the
use of
>assasination and fear and the “true believers”.

In what way do we ‘control’ the government? More to the point, I think,
the groups you named were intentionally formed to exert an offensive
revolutionary influence. Our influence may be somewhat revolutionary (at
least by current statist standards) bet we are an inherently defensive,
community based movement. We are not equipped, or indeed motivated, to
fight offensively; thus I wonder how you came to this conclusion.

>It is as if the cripps or the hells angels or the mafia called themselves
>militia and used the 2nd ammendment ot take control of towns and conties
and states.

I don’t understand your analogy here – what “towns and counties and
states” do you believe that the we taken control over? Also, as you wish
to compare us to various criminal organizations, perhaps you could say
what sort of criminal activities you perceive us to be involved in?

>Some militia groups (like the so-called freemen) have become clasicla
racketeers

I think it’s been clear for a long time now that the FM are not, and have
never been associated with us. They are, after all, anarchists, and would
never associate with organizations of our size and complexity. Since you
believe there are other militia organizations acting like “racketeers”
could you please provide an example or two?

>and all militia groups have the potential.

Would you please explain how you have come to this conclusion? On what
criteria, and in what way, do you measure the potential actions of “all
militia groups”?

>We are in danger of losing our liberty is we are not very carefull and
the danger
>is from these gangs who call themselves militia.

Hmm, would you mind explaining how you see this happening? What sort of
loss of liberty do you believe will be caused by us? What facts did you
use in arriving at this conclusion?

puzzled,
Arlin H. Adams

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:26:40 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Fri, 24 May 96 2:48:04 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Democracy vrs Freedom
Lines: 29

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:

>The notion that early Americans had easy access to the weapons of war is
a
>popular myth but one not backed up by reality. Actually, military style
>weapons were in very short supply, particularly up to the 1820s or so.
>Shortages were particularly bad in the South and on the frontier, and
>representatives from these areas were always calling on Congress to have
the
>federal government supply them with arms, since they were in such short
>supply.

Ah, but mark, that is NOT the whole story. While firearms in standard
calibers, especially military style (smoothbore) muskets were in fact in
short supply, firearms generally were not. The privately owned firearms
of the day varied between cheap ‘trade guns’ (unreliable, shoddily made
muskets designed for trade with the Native Americans) all the way up to
custom made Pennsylvania Long Rifles. There was no shortage of *personal*
firearms, but as occured at the beginning of the Revolution, military
units were *not* able to equip all of their personnel with standardized
caliber weapons – indeed prior to the shipments of surplus guns from the
French, many militia units remained armed primarily with personal
firearms. The trick here, of course, is that using personal firearms,
usually handmade, required that the military supply a wide variety of
calibers of musket ball, as well as making maintenance in the field almost
impossible. THIS, then, is why there was a constant plea for standardized
military firearms throughout the early years of this country.

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militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Fri, 24 May 96 10:18:26 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Jesus and Militias
Lines: 20

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (JHistorian)
writes:

>1. He was God, which among other things means that stuff like bullets
>wouldn’t bother him anyway.
>==========
> Yeah . . . only nails and spears, right?
>
> So, I see that Bible history is NOT one of those ares where you
>claim “expertise,” is it?

Nice try, but as already been made clear by other posters, Jesus proved on
several occaisions that He had the power to control what happened to Him –
calming storms, that sort of thing. The whole point of the Gospels is
that He didn’t *have* to die, but rather *chose* to be sacrificed. That
being said, I am only an amateur theologian..my expertise lies elsewhere.

So Jim, I see Christian theology is NOT one of the areas in which you
claim “expertise” is it?

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:26:41 PDT 1996
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militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Fri, 24 May 96 10:18:41 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: @@@@You people are nothing but [email protected]@@@@@@@
Lines: 33

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (JHistorian)
writes:

>>>And, unless I miss my guess, you and your militaboy brethren
>>>have not exactly won the hearts and minds of the American people.
>>>
>>not all, yet, but we’re getting there. πŸ™‚
>==========
> Don’t hold your breath — in case you’ve not been paying attention,
>there has been an increasing frequency in these “you people are idiots”
>messages.

Certainly as our visibility increases, comments both good and bad will
also be seen with increasing frequency. While I *have* been getting
supportive email from several new sources, the only posts I’ve noticed
here that are critical were obviously written by bored, and not overly
well read, university students…not my primary audience in any case.

>>>In other words, PR ain’t you strong suit, is it, Arlin?
>>>
>>>Depends on whom I’m playing to, Jim…and to what purpose.
>>>But then *I* have more than *one* area of expertise :->
>==========
> Do tell! So, tell me, what would that “expertise” be?

y’know Jim, I really thought about what my response here would be, and
what came to me as the most effective would be to simply let you go back
and reconsider my initial post in this thread – asking yourself what
*other* priorities I might have had, and what expertise that might imply.
Mind games Jim, you play ’em, now you get to play ’em.

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:26:42 PDT 1996
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Date: Fri, 24 May 96 10:18:48 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Get used to it…You will lose all your rights sooner or later and there’s
Lines: 30

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (JHistorian)
writes:

>All the original poster is doing is attempting to justify his own lack of
>moral fiber.
>==========
> A man who belives he can resolve problems without resorting to a
gun
>is NOT a man who lacks moral fibre, or courage.

true as far as your statement goes, but a man who believes he can solve
ALL of his problems without a gun is a fool, and one who is afraid to face
those problems which require the use of force is a coward.

> I’ll believe that you simplton militiaboys have moral fiber and
>courage when I see you out in the streets getting your asses beaten and
>blasted with water hoses — as did the civil rights marchers — but not
>until then.

Well, don’t hold your breath (where have I heard that before?) – we aren’t
into being victims…most certainly not victims for your entertainment.

> Rather, he is a man who knows that his greatest weapon is his mind.
>
> Pity that you militiaboys have not evolved that far.

uhm, somehow evolution to the point of depending solely on mental
telepathy (or were your refering to telekinesis?) is something I doubt you
have achieved either Jim…

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:26:42 PDT 1996
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Date: Fri, 24 May 96 10:33:06 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: War Veteran Wannabes: the Suicide of
Lines: 21

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (JHistorian)
writes:

>
> Be goddamned glad that there are men and women who will willingly
go
>to fight, and maybe die, so that your puny little ass can sit at home and
>ridicule them.

alright, let’s try this again:

to borrow from Mike’s post: there were about 10,000 medals handed out for
the Grenada invasion, and about 8000 people actually landed on the
island… and that includes the specops folks who were killed
unneccessarily due to improper equipment an a lack of communication
between the various services…now Jim, is your puny ass just going to sit
there and ridicule the truth – that whenever anybody starts shooting
citations start falling from the sky like bird crap? and usually end up
on folks in inverse proportion to the ammount of sacrifice they actually
made?

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:26:43 PDT 1996
Article: 19801 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Fri, 24 May 96 15:48:03 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Jesus and Militias
Lines: 24

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Walter
Ulrich) writes:

>
>”Bad taste”… naaaw…there’s nothing like a good theological donnybrook
>to get the juices flowing.

πŸ™‚ yeah, but considering that we’re discussing points which various
parties accept ON FAITH, it’s a little hard to do the ‘objective observer’
thing, you know?

>But there is a connection in this to militia/freedom/rights issues: The
>”humanists” claim that everything is invented by man, that humans are
>the measure of all things, therefore men can subject other men to man-
>made tyranny and that’s o.k., because it’s all on one level.

I think you’ve got a point here – one of the problems with society as it
currently stands is that there are large numbers of people who neither
believe nor disbelieve – they just avoid the issue entirely…of course
they then have a very difficult time with folks who hold *anything* as an
absolute.

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:26:44 PDT 1996
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Date: Fri, 24 May 96 15:48:21 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: The Miracle of the Li
Lines: 12

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (frankenchrist)
writes:

> I agree totally..Government supresses psychedelics,mind-opening drugs.
>They learned the lessons of psychedelics and pot during the
>Vietnam war. Their guinea pigs couldn’t shoot straight and
>turned on to god and pacifism.

uh, not entirely accurate – none of them could really shoot straight,
about 50 percent totally flaked, but the other 50 percent went
uncontrolably psychotic – freaked out, as it were…

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Date: Fri, 24 May 96 15:48:31 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Logic for the Illogical militia…
Lines: 11

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Todd
Lofton) writes:

>Wes ([email protected]) wrote:
>[another example of why one shouldn’t drink alcohol before posting]
>
>It would be nice if you could have a point?

actually Todd, I think it would have been even nicer if his mother hadn’t
been drinking while she was pregnant, y’know?

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Article: 19804 of misc.activism.militia
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Date: Fri, 24 May 96 15:48:38 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Can an unarmed person be a patriot?
Lines: 17

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
(Andrew Wicken) writes:

>
>How about someone who loves their country, and is willing to show that
>love through hard work?
>
>If you’re willing to risk time, reputation or your life for your
>country, then you’re a patriot. It’s one of those grey areas, although
>”my patriotism’s bigger than yours” arguments shouldn’t be encouraged.

Excellent points Andrew! (uh, just for future reference, even the
non-libertarian types in the movement tend not to be ‘statists’ in the
perjorative meaning of the term…)

Arlin Adams

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:26:46 PDT 1996
Article: 19805 of misc.activism.militia
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Date: Fri, 24 May 96 16:03:05 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [ NEWS ] KG-BATF agents put family in TERROR
Lines: 17

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]ate.edu
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:

>Myth #10004455. The Germans had plans drawn up for an invasion, which
they
>didn’t think would be that difficult. They had a wee problem, though;
they
>were fighting several million Soviets at the time.

Myth debunker Debunked (try saying THAT five times real fast!): German
estimates showed that they would lose combat effectiveness of at *least* 6
first line divisions in the invasion and then *still* have to garrison the
place. Having already begun to deal with Tito in Yugoslavia – whose
guerillas were eventually able to tie down 11 divisions in similar
terrain, it was determined that an invasion of Switzerland would be cost
in-effective.

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:26:47 PDT 1996
Article: 19810 of misc.activism.militia
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Date: Fri, 24 May 96 17:33:03 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: ANFO
Lines: 10

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Dave Cinege)
writes:

>Sure. Just throw it in there……
>Lemme guess, your friends call you stumpy?

aw heck, dave, depending on the quantities he’s working with, he *might*
just become the precursor of a militia space program…er, at least parts
of him might…

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:26:47 PDT 1996
Article: 19845 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Fri, 24 May 96 17:48:03 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Democracy vrs Freedom
Lines: 20

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:

>
>They weren’t just pleas for “standardized military firearms.” As William
>Henry
>Harrison, governor of Indiana Territory complained (I am quoting from
memory
>here): “Arms are not to be had in this country.”

Exactly – no production facilities, once one left the east coast, and the
only arms available were those personal firearms people had with them.
Gotta remember that prior to Eli Whitney coming up with a way of producing
standardized muskets with interchangable (uh, at least theoretically)
parts, firearms were the work of individual craftsmen, who were fairly few
and far between. Because of this, no one was going to sell their personal
firearms to the government, and there was no way that the few gunsmiths
(whose individual production might only amount to 3 or 4 firearms per
month) would ever have been able to equip a large military force.

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Article: 19846 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Fri, 24 May 96 18:03:21 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Christian Identity
Lines: 24

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (frankenchrist)
writes:

> Boys who misbehave get whipped.

unless they do the whipping. Those of us who do not see the government in
a paternal role, but rather in the role of armed thief, aren’t
misbehaving, simply exercising our Right of Self-defense

>It turns out that the
>suspected OKC bomber may have belonged to a militia..How else
>do you expect the government to respond?

by flaking and ignoring the presence of John Doe #2, since *he* didn’t
conveniently get caught for speeding…

> They can only go so
>far with the drugwar. Now that the cat’s out of the bag with
>militias they have a new course of action,yet another excuse to
>ban guns and shred the Bill of Rights.

they needed an excuse? c’mon frankie, they were going to do that anyway –
without any excuse…

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Date: Fri, 24 May 96 17:48:18 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Mafia is militia?
Lines: 14

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Mo10Cav) writes:

> Dammit, HABIZ, I told you to quit doing that.

Cheez, I’m sorry Mike, I’ll check the latch better next time… πŸ™‚

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Date: Sat, 25 May 96 3:48:03 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [ NEWS ] KG-BATF agents put family in TERROR
Lines: 44

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:

>>Myth debunker Debunked (try saying THAT five times real fast!): German
>>estimates showed that they would lose combat effectiveness of at *least*
6
>>first line divisions in the invasion and then *still* have to garrison
the
>>place. Having already begun to deal with Tito in Yugoslavia – whose
>>guerillas were eventually able to tie down 11 divisions in similar
>>terrain, it was determined that an invasion of Switzerland would be cost
>>in-effective.
>
>Temporarily losing the combat effectiveness of six divisions in World War
II is
>a pittance by itself; Germany easily could have invaded Switzerland. It
was,
>as I said, the fact that they were fighting the Soviets and so could not
spare
>any avoidable losses that was the key factor–not the military efficiency
of
>the Swiss, or lack thereof.
>

you need to go back and re-read my response mark – as I pointed out it was
a combination of the loss of combat effectiveness (which means projected
casualties of at least 25-33%) AND the neccessity to provide for a *LARGE*
occupation force (that’s what the example of Yugoslavia was about) that
made them change their mind. By the time the Germans had launched their
eastern front campaign they were well aware of how short of troops they
really were. The withdrawal of six, already undersized, combat divisions
would indeed have been a serious drain on their already over-stretched
manpower resources, and a garrison force equivalent to that required for
Yugoslavia would have forced them to withdraw units from the already
undermanned ‘western wall’ defenses along the coast.

In turn, what made these losses, and the need for such a garrison force
inevitable was a combination of the Swiss terrain and the Swiss military.
To acknowledge that the Germans would have suffered unacceptable
casualties *without* acknowledging the agency that would have caused
those casualties is, at best, a lapse in logic. Unless you believe they
were all going to die of frost bite, the primary concern of the Germans in
this effort would have been the efficiency of the Swiss military.

From [email protected] Mon May 27 15:29:27 PDT 1996
Article: 19956 of misc.activism.militia
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Date: Sun, 26 May 96 15:18:03 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [ NEWS ] KG-BATF agents put family in TERROR
Lines: 24

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (David L Evens)
writes:

>
>Mark T Pitcavage ([email protected]) wrote:
>: In article <[email protected]>, X288FILES
wrote:
>: >
>: >why did hitler not invade switzerland ???
>: >ans. cause every one had a machine gun
>
>: Myth #10004455. The Germans had plans drawn up for an invasion, which
they
>
>: didn’t think would be that difficult. They had a wee problem, though;
they
>
>: were fighting several million Soviets at the time.
>
>Indeed that is a myth. Good of you to mark your myths as such, Mark.

Well, you know, David, with mark it’s always a hit or myth situation when
it comes to dealing with military concepts….

From [email protected] Mon May 27 15:29:28 PDT 1996
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Date: Sun, 26 May 96 15:18:11 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Agents, pitman, assassination and war
Lines: 15

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (RYK an1) writes:

>But the question is what do we do with the enemy if such a situation
>occured?
>Do we exile them, release them, or shoot them.
>
>I just cannot see the feasibility of releasing them back in to society.
>Maybe I am wrong but that leaves only two choices and neither one of them
>are very nice.

Hmm, while I seriously doubt the hardcore pseudo-liberals would *want* to
live in our sort of society, I can understand your concern. You might
check out Jerry Pournelle’s OATH OF FEALTY – he has some interesting ideas
for alternative forms of punishment that you might find interesting.

From [email protected] Mon May 27 15:29:30 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sun, 26 May 96 15:33:05 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Freemen or Wooses?
Lines: 102

Hi Roger,

Actually, we aren’t that far apart on this issue.

>My thoughts are this: I’m tired of the gov’t pussyfooting around
>with these scofflaws. My tax dollars are being wasted playing
>the waiting game, because of fear of bad publicity.

It has gotten tedious, certainly, though I don’t think the feds are
functioning solely on the fear of bad publicity. It has long been a tenet
of the American criminal justice system that it is better to spend money
than to kill people. Witness the number of ‘life’ sentences handed out
every year. Someone so sentenced is effectively removed from society, for
the rest of her/his life, at tax payer expense. Certainly, were one to
look at the problem only in terms of cost-effectiveness, killing them
would be the cheaper option. But we do not, usually, do so. Rather, we
spend the money to keep them in prison, on the principle that it’s better
to do that than kill them. I think all we’re really talking about here is
whether the same general principle applies in this situation. I believe
it does.

> These so-
>called “patriots” are nothing but common criminals,

Well, I don’t consider them ‘patriots’ at all, just people who have been
accused of defrauding their neighbors…not a very acceptable practice in
my book, and certainly not legal.

> and not very
>bright ones either! They must have been brain-dead to think that
>they could get away with printing their wonderful bogus checks!

hmm, naive might be a better term. Not realizing that the entire legal
system has become so convoluted that even regular practitioners can rarely
be certain of much, they attempted to interpret the law in their own
favor, without regard to the bureaucratic system specifically set up to
prevent people from doing such things. More importantly, in my book, they
were also hypocritical – decrying the government’s ability to generate
financial instruments, while at the same time attempting to generate their
own…sorry, but THAT just don’t cut it either…y’know?

>They have broken the law of the land.

That certainly *seems* to be the case – we wont know for sure until the
trial.

> If they have an ounce of
>courage, they would come out and face their accusers in a court
>of law.

The problem, of course, is that they are anarchists…the sorts of folks
who wish the rest of the known universe would just go away (uh, except for
those nice government checks, of course πŸ˜‰ ) . They seem to have backed
themselves into a philosophical corner they aren’t bright enough to reason
their way out of again…still, I’m not sure even advanced stupidity
warrants the death penalty.

> If they refuse to do that, they should be perfectly
>honest, and be prepared to pay the ultimate price! To me,
>if they truly had the courage of their so-called convictions,
>they would be ready to lay down their lives for their beliefs.

In all, honest, judging by their actions, and what I’ve read of their
writings, I’d expect their leadership to commit suicide, one way or the
other.

>Likewise, they would want their progeny out of harm’s way, so
>that they could grow up and carry on the “good fight”! Ergo,
>the wives should go out with the children, to ensure someone
>is left alive to raise them.

well as a libertarian, I’d have to insist that a parent (gender
irrelevant) be allowed to survive with the children – we don’t
discriminate by gender – but other than that, I would certainly say your
suggestion makes sense to me.

>Additionally, it wasn’t they government that they were bilking
>woith the worthless checks, etc., but fellow ordinary citizens!
>Where’s the honor in that?

Exactly. There was no honor in that.

> Furthermore, the one fine Freman,
>managed to stifle his hatred of ZOG enough, to accept over
>$600,000 in taxpayer-funded farm subsidies!! My, my what a
>real rebel!!

like I said, except for those government checks…:-)

>These charlatans should be given 24 hours to come out with their
>hands up. If they don’t comply; then they pay whatever price
>is necessary to extricate them from the property that they are
>illegally occupying.

okay, and if the price is simply waiting? or is *that* price too high for
you? See my discussion of the criminal justice system, above.

I’ll be interested to read your thoughts on this.
Arlin

From [email protected] Mon May 27 15:29:30 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sun, 26 May 96 15:33:15 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: 105 mm howitzers
Lines: 14

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (John Luebbers
) writes:

>
>There are reported to be 8 to 10 105 mm howqitzers in position near
>justus Township Mt. These will be used against freedom fighters in
>defense of the freemen.

uh, John, did anybody say where those howitzers came from? or who was
manning them? Neither the FBI nor the Marshalls have any artillery, not
even mortars. Sources, please?

Arlin Adams

From [email protected] Mon May 27 15:29:31 PDT 1996
Article: 19966 of misc.activism.militia
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Date: Sun, 26 May 96 15:33:36 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: ALERT
Lines: 20

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (JHistorian)
writes:

>Thus spake Arlin Adams:
>
>>
>>JHistorian wrote:
>>> Quien sabe? However, he’s one of yours — a militiaboy.
>>
>>Why do you resort to calling people “boy?” Some kind of
>>resentment over having the word applied to you, or just
>>cheap shots as a substitute for logic?
>==========
>
> A substitute for logic, of course.

uh Jim, that wasn’t me you just quoted. I don’t have that post on my hard
drive anymore, but that was somebody else responding to your response to
me…might want to check that.

From [email protected] Mon May 27 15:29:32 PDT 1996
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Date: Sun, 26 May 96 15:34:06 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: War Veteran Wannabes: the Suicide of
Lines: 10

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Tim Hill)
writes:

>War Veteran Wannabees…hmmmm..aren’t they the guys who like to dress up
>in cammies and play soldier in the woods?

no, tim, they’re folks like you with no military experience, who claim to
understand military subjects…sorry, but you *really* set yourself up for
that one.

From [email protected] Mon May 27 15:29:33 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sun, 26 May 96 15:34:13 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Articles of Faith (was: Jesus and Militias)
Lines: 34

WARNING: THEOLOGICAL DEBATE FOLLOWS, IF YOU AIN’T INTERESTED, YOU MIGHT
WANT TO SKIP THIS ONE.

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Joseph T.
Adams) writes:

>Well, here we have one of the inherent contradictions of modern
>society.
>
>If all truth is relative, then it is not possible to be objective.
>One cannot help but view things with the biases inherent in one’s own
>perspective if truth is relative.
>
>If truth is *not* relative, then all of us cannot be right. Some of
>us – all of us, perhaps – are objectively wrong.

Hi Joe,

I guess I wasn’t as clear as I might have been. What I was trying to say
was that, in the end, ALL religious beliefs are based on acts of Faith.
Now Faith is inherently a supra-rational act – it is going BEYOND provable
facts and acknowledging that something *not* directly provable to an
objective observer exists. If it were objectively provable, then (as with
gravity) there would be no doubt in anyones’ mind, but there would also be
no need for Faith. Because all religious beliefs hinge on Articles of
Faith, it is at best a futile to attempt to debate them…either party to
the debate can claim different Articles of Faith, and there is no way for
the other party to disprove them.

Best
Arlin

From [email protected] Mon May 27 15:29:34 PDT 1996
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Subject: Re: 105 mm howitzers
Lines: 12

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Jolly
Roger) writes:

>Drop 50, fire for effect, shake ‘n’ bake.
>Uff Da.

Uff Da??????? Jolly you been hangin’ around dem norskis to long I tink,
eh?

Arlin
who grew up in a place where people actually talk like that πŸ™‚

From [email protected] Mon May 27 15:29:34 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sun, 26 May 96 18:18:04 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Jewish Conspiracy Proof? –>>
Lines: 83

In article <833077114[email protected]>, [email protected] (John
Dulaney) writes:

> You speak as being a part of the corrupt system that has destroyed
>our nation’s educational standards.

No, John, I speak from personal experience. I am not a member of the NEA
– I refused to join either teacher’s union because of their anti-gun and
anti-liberty philosophies. Of course this means that I’m not even allowed
to teach in many ‘closed shop’ public school systems, but that is simply
one of the sacrifices one makes if one chooses to stand on one’s
principles.

I’m also a Libertarian, and a militia member, to claim that I am ‘part of
the system’ is not only absurd, but irrational. If I had wished to remain
part of the system, I could have done so by fighting the forced medical
retirement which put me out of civil service…you see besides being
partially disabled, the government wasn’t real happy with the fact that I
didn’t just play along with things. I dare say that not only have I been
fighting for truth a lot longer than you have, in a number of different
venues, but I have also had access to significantly more hard information
than you ever shall. My opinions are based on my observations and
experiences, nothing more or less.

>Of what possible value do your lies
>have when the entire world knows the truth?

Now I realize that you’ve led a rather sheltered life, John, else you
wouldn’t have fallen for that anti-semitic nonsense to begin with; so let
me explain something to you. There are two things you should NEVER call a
libertarian, without hard evidence to support them – Never accuse a
libertarian of cheating, and never, ever, accuse a libertarian of lying.
Because we do not function under ‘implied’ or ‘inherited’ contracts,
social or otherwise, the only contracts we abide by are those on which we
give our word. Our word is our bond. My word is my bond. You have
falsly impugned my word, and in doing so you have falsly impugned my
honor. I shall remember that.

> You ARE the problem we face and getting YOU and people like YOU
>OUT of the system is the battle we face today.

uh, John, yo! wake up guy! I’m not IN the system…you obviously haven’t
been paying attention to anything I or anyone else writes on this
newsgroup. Your ignorance does you grave discredit, though I doubt you
realize that fact.

> I already did.
> The entirety of the rest of your posting was a repitition of the
> same NEA text you are all ordered to push out.

Actually, John, none of the texts I used were from the NEA, my general
discription of how Whole Language works came from a Canadian textbook, as
a matter of fact. The historical data I presented concerning the failure
of the Look-Say methodology came from a professor friend who actually
worked on the development project at the University of Arizona. No one
‘ordered’ me to say anything. You, sir, haven’t a clue what you are
talking about.

> Problem is we’ve all read these lies a thousand times.
> Since you are not allowed to diverge from these lies you are
> stuck.

well, no, I’m not ‘stuck’ as the one thing I wont diverge from is the
truth. Guess my little addendum about lack of parental discipline really
struck a nerve, eh? Funny thing, though, I got several email messages
>from fellow militia members who had noted the same lack of discipline and,
in fact attributed it to the same source. Funny how that worked out,
don’t you think? or do you now believe that your vaunted super-duper
conspiracy is playing mind control games on militia members? If that’s
the case, then how can you be certain they also aren’t playing mind
control games on you?

> Get deprogrammed and join the Human Race!

The only person who programs me, is me. As far as being part of the human
race, John, I most certainly am. Since I don’t live with your paranoid
racist fantasies, I associate with *all* types of humans. Thus, one might
say that I’m actually more a part of the human race than you are. πŸ™‚

May you have done to you as you do to others.
Arlin H. Adams

From [email protected] Mon May 27 15:29:35 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sun, 26 May 96 19:33:03 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Get used to it…You will lose all your rights sooner or later and there’s
Lines: 189

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Michael
Hollomon, Jr.) writes:

>
>Actually, Arlin, I am fully aware of my power to change things of
>which I do not approve. However, unlike you militists, my weapon is
>reason, not treason.

ah, so tell me Michael, if the point comes where you find that reason no
longer prevails, what will you do then? What do you see as your options,
should the government’s actions overstep *your* tolerance limits?

> I actually happen to think that my government is
>a pretty damn good one. No, its not perfect. But it’s certainly not
>the evil empire you militists try to make it out to be.

You certainly have the right to make that judgement if you wish.
Obviously we disagree, as our standards are somewhat different.

>And its
>certainly a hell of a lot better than any of you weekend warriors
>could do.

ah, and on what criteria do you base that judgement? You seem to know
almost nothing of who we are, what we stand for, or what we intend to do –
one might question whether you even have sufficient information to form a
valid opinion in this matter.

>>Unfortunately for him, *we* are doing something.
>
>Yes, in fact you *are* doing something. Let’s see…stockpiling
>military weapons,

and ammunition, and food, and medical supplies, and other survival needs.
I’m sorry you have problems with our self-sufficiency. Does it bother you
that you may be more dependent on the system than we are, or is it that we
are simply different?

> proposing the violent overthrow of my elected
>government,

no, that’s not true. We are proposing armed defense of ourselves and our
communities against possible future depredations by the federal
bureaucracy…as far as any elected officials owned by you, well since I
don’t know exactly who you have in your pocket, it’s hard for me to answer
that one.

>engaging in criminal behavior

you have knowledge of criminal behavior on the part of the Constitutional
Militias? I challenge you to produce any evidence supporting this claim.

> and keeping the best
>equipped LEO’s in the world at bay with your massive weapons stockpile
>(“Freemen”),

hmm, you’re a bit confused here – no militia unit is keeping “LEO’s at
bay”. As for the FM, they are not now, nor have they ever been part of
the CM. They’re anarchists, Michael, they wouldn’t even think of
associating with us. Now what is this “massive weapons stockpile” you’re
talking about, anyway?

>commiting terrorist acts against domestic targets and
>causing the deaths of innocent women, children and men (“McVeigh”).

again, you’re more than a bit confused. First off, the Nichols and
McVeigh travelling side show hasn’t been convicted of anything yet…or
don’t you hold with the concept of innocent until proven guilty? In any
case, McVeigh had been THROWN OUT of militias in two seperate states (MI
and AZ). He was not one of us, nor did any of us support the OKC bombing.
But let’s carry your guilt by association to a logical parallel – in the
last several years there have been a number of members of both major
political parties who have gone to jail for felonies – everything from
embezzlement to having sex with minors. Do you belong to one of those
political parties, Michael? If so, are you then involved in embezzlement
or sex with minors? Sauce for the goose, Michael.

>Yep, that’s something alright. And you’re right it is unfortunate
>for, and for every other law-abiding American citizen.

We are law-abiding American citizens, Michael, in fact although you don’t
know it, you probably see us on the street, everyday.

>>Now that implies that
>>people *can* change the situation, which in turn shows him up as the
lazy
>>coward he is.
>
>Lazy coward, am I? Because I choose not to take up arms against my
>own government?

Actually, considering what you’ve written above, no, I’d say you were more
on the order of misinformed, and perhaps overly idealistic. You see, you
provide more data, and my analysis changes.

>Or because I realize that reasonable restrictions on
>some of my freedoms are not the first steps in a secret government
>plot to turn this nation into Orwell’s _1984_?

now *that* I would classify as downright foolish. If you choose to
consider the government your master, I suppose that’s your right; but
please expect no sympathy here.

>>Of course he doesn’t like that, so he tries to assuage his
>>ego by lecturing us on how ‘wrong’ we are.
>>
>>In the end, when he figures out that his cause is hopeless, he will be
>>caught in a dichotomy – either he can run away again (just as he’s run
>>away from his responsibilities in regard to maintaining his own
liberty),
>>which would be admitting we were right – or – he can join us, which
would
>>be tough, because it would be admitting we were right, as well. Should
be
>>interesting, don’t you think?

>
>Um, not quite. Look, I know that you are so indoctrinated into the
>manly men’s “patriot” movement that you can’t see the forest for the
>trees.

LOL! man, I sure wouldn’t let the women in *my* group hear you refer to
the movement that way, if I were you. It’s nice that you admit your
sexist bias up front like that, though.

> But, trust me Arlin, you are dreaming. It is your, not my,
>cause which is hopeless.

because you say so? on what do you base this analysis?

> You guys haven’t a snowball’s chance in hell
>of taking over this country.

oh, that’s okay, we’ll be quite satisfied if we simply preserve our
communities, our way of life, and our essential liberties…no need to
take over the whole shooting match…. Please remember Michael, that *we*
are *defensive* organizations, it is portions of the fe(de)ral government
which have become offensive.

> What you will end up doing (if your
>bravado ever extends past posting to this newsgroup – which I highly
>doubt)

*sigh* Michael, you’ve already proven your judgement to be faulty, and
your penchant for inaction to be almost total, so why should I be
concerned about your opinion of me? Your inability to distinguish between
courage and bravado, between honor and hot air, brings dishonor only upon
yourself.

>is getting yourself killed and giving the government the
>support it needs to *really* limit, if not abolish, the right of
>private citizens to keep and bear arms.

They are already in the process of “really” limiting RKBA. Whether you’ve
felt the direct impact of those limitations or not, does not make them any
less real. Indeed many of us are working quite hard to remove support for
the government’s anti-gun policies, through both social and political
channels…and slowly, we are succeeding. Which scares you more, Michael,
the fact that we are willing to die for our rights, or the fact that we
are becoming a *political* force to be reckoned with?

>And by the way, you need not post a reply to this message. We *all*
>know what it would say. In fact, I’ll save you the time and effort
>and post it for you:

Why Michael, I’m surprised, so proud of your bigotry that you want to
demonstrate it on the internet? how interesting.

>”No commie boy! It is *you* who are dreaming. Me and my gun buddies
>are gonna defeat you and your jackbooted LEO’s. I mean what I say!
>I’m not just posting big bad messages to this newsgroup. We’re making
>real plans to take real action with our real guns and then we’re
>gonna…yadda yadda yadda…

Well, as we can all see, your attempt at humor exhibits only your obvious
misconceptions about who I am, who the members of the militias are, and
what it is we’re actually doing. This was actually quite helpful,
Michael, as we are rarely able to find an anti-militia bigot who is as
sexist, as foolish, and as computer literate as you seem to be…through
your excellent negative example you’ve done us a service, thankyou!

Arlin H. Adams

From [email protected] Mon May 27 15:29:36 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sun, 26 May 96 19:48:05 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Get used to it…You will lose all your rights sooner or later and there’s
Lines: 14

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Michael
Hollomon, Jr.) writes:

>>
>>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (JHistorian)
>>writes:
>
>I know you hope to go out in a blaze of glory with six guns a firin’
>and then ride off into the sunset on your trusty steed

Why Michael, I must really be getting to you, conscience starting to
bother you a bit? here you are spreading your prejudice across two
seperate posts…how interesting.

From [email protected] Mon May 27 15:29:37 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sun, 26 May 96 19:48:21 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Jewish Conspiracy Proof? –>>
Lines: 237

Now, John, you didn’t think that hiding this underneath an ad for your web
site was really going to keep me from finding it, did you? Shame on you,
if you did.

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (John
Dulaney) writes:

>In September 1993, Americans were stunned to learn that half the
>adult population – some 90 million Americans – have such poor
>literacy skills that they can scarcely cope with the demands of our
>high-tech economy. That was the finding of the U.S. Department of
>Education’s $14-million survey of adult literacy in the U.S. The

yep. there are some quibbles concerning the exact manner in which they
measured literacy in some instances, but overall, that’s true.

>question is: How could so many Americans – who had spent more time
>in school than any previous generation, on whom more money had been
>spent than in any previous generation – emerge from their education
>so poorly equipped in basic literacy skills?

The answer to this question is, of course that there are a number of
factors which have effected literacy rates. These include such things as
social and cultural upheavals, which have had long term effects on the
stability of family structures, the fact that in many instances (parent
gets a promotion, job gets moved to a different state, etc) children
change schools every two or three years, often moving between widely
disparate educational systems, the lack of education resulting from lack
of discipline (which I noted in a previous post), cultural discontinuity
between teaching materials and the cultural and social environment in
which the students live, the list is actually quite long.

There is also an unstated assumption in that question that throwing money
at educational problems somehow is supposed to be meaningful, this is
obviously not the case, and the study certainly provides evidence to
support the fact that money alone will NEVER solve the problems of public
educaton in this country. When you read this propaganda of your’s John,
you need to watch for unstated assumptions like that.

>Blumenfeld answers that question in his no-holds-barred examination
>of the decline of literacy in America and the deliberate dumbing
>down of its people.

Pardon me for asking, John, but as a publicly espoused antisemite, how
comfortable are you with drawing support from a Jewish intellectual like
Dr. Blumenfeld? I find this most interesting – incongruous and
hypocritical as well, mind you, but interesting nonetheless.

> He puts the blame squarely on the shoulders of
>the educational leaders who decided early in this century to change
>the purpose of education from its traditional academic function to
>a radical social one.

Now you see, John, this is one of those little propaganda discontinuities
you need to watch for – the writer starts out talking about the current
generation, and then skips merrily back 90 years to the turn of the
century. Think for a moment, John, if the educational policies espoused
at the turn of the century had been as debilitating as this author would
have you believe, would they not have had a more immediate effect? Would
not their effects have been felt throughout that time frame, rather than
simply ‘materializing’ in the public school system over the last few
years? Logic, John, it’s what’s missing here, and what you need to apply
rigorously to spot this kind of propagandistic nonsense.

> It was John Dewey and his colleagues who
>decided that high literacy was an obstacle to their progressive
>agenda and that, therefore, the teaching of reading had to be
>changed to produce a more socially desirable result.

Actually, that’s about half right. John Dewey and his colleagues most
certainly *did* advocate, and make, modifications to the educational
system. However they did NOT do this from a socialist or ‘progressive’
perspective, but rather looking to support *industry*. Dewey was very
upfront about this too – he specifically stated that his educational
reforms were intended ‘to produce good workers for industry’. In point
of fact, John, Dewey, was a proto-fascist, *not* a socialist. Now either
the author is lying, or he hasn’t a clue and has never actually read any
of Dewey’s writings. In either case, his analysis is factually wrong.

> The results
>for the nation have been disastrous.

Actually, the vaunted traditional textbook method of instruction, the one
that you espouse in place of whole language, was the result of the Dewey
reforms. While I do NOT believe that was neccessarily the best thing that
could have happened to public education, it’s absolutely astounding that
the author could so blatantly contradict her/himself. Utterly amazing.

>
>Whole Language is the latest manifestation of that progressive
>plan.

You see John, this is another one of those propaganda techniques, where
the author makes an unsupported (and unsupportable) assumption, states it
as fact, and then moves on, in the hope that no one will notice.

> It has not only replaced intensive phonics in the classroom

This is not true. The phonics instruction in whole language classrooms,
through the use of word sounds, continues in all classes throughout the
school day. it is therefore a very intense methodology. What whole
language *has* replaced has been the teaching of isolated phonics lessons,
which had no relationship to anything else the students were learning, and
which was restricted to one period per day. The traditional textbook
method, besides being less effective, was also decidedly less intense.

>but also the old Dick-and Jane Look-say reading programs.

well I should hope so. The whole point of whole language pedagogy is to
get the kids functioning as fluent readers of real world print media just
as quickly as possible. And it does – again by practicing reading skills
throughout the school day rather than in one isolated class period.

>a whole new dimension to the reading process: subjectivism and
>deconstructionism.

uh, actually that would be *two* dimensions, John, apparently the author
can’t count, either. In any case, this is yet another example of the
half-truths of which he is so fond. Reading is inherently a *subjective*
process, this isn’t introduced by whole language, merely acknowledged. An
easy proof of the subjective nature of reading is the current debate over
the 2nd Ammendment. Obviously, if reading produced some sort of
absolutely objective knowledge, then everyone who read it would interpret
it the same way…which is obviously not the case. Instead, a variety of
*subjective* interpretations are espoused by different people, because, in
point of fact reading requires subjective interpretation by the reader.
It’s also obvious that the author was presuming that no one reading this
would understand the difference between constructivism and
deconstructionism. Deconstructionism is a post-modern text interpretation
method in which the analyst literally ‘deconstructs’ the text, through a
series of processes which are really irrelevant here, since they are NOT a
part of whole language. Constructivism, on the other hand, is simply the
fact that we take what we read, integrate it with what we already know,
and that’s how we *construct* new knowledge. As you can see,
constructivism is nothing more than applied common sense. As you can also
see, the writer would have found criticizing common sense to be
counterproductive, and thus substituted a completely unrelated concept.
Propaganda techniques again, John, see?

> In addition, it has become an integral part of
>Outcome-Based Education.

Actually OBE, which is nothing more than an unusable program put together
by a bunch of governmental bureaucrats desperately attempting to appear as
though they are doing *something* to improve education, has tried to piggy
back on the success of whole language for the better part of this decade.
Funny thing, though, while whole language is always effective, OBE never
is…interesting how the government does that, don’t you think?

>Thus, it is a far more lethal form of
>pedagogy than anything that has proceeded it.

The only ‘lethal’ pedagogies of which I am aware in this country, are
those in courses taught by the military. John, this is a nonsense
sentence – a ‘lethal pedagogy’ would either be one in which the students
learned to kill, or one in which the students *were* killed…even public
schools haven’t gotten to that point yet! πŸ™‚ [note for John – that was
a joke!] Here the author is simply trying to play on your emotions, with
yet another unsupported, and unsupportable assertion, stated in a factual
manner.

>
>Blumenfeld writes:
>
>Whole Language educators are perpetrating a fraud. They are telling
>parents that whole language is a new and better way of teaching
>children to read when, in reality, it is nothing of the sort. For
>all intents and purposes, whole language is a way of preventing
>children from becoming fluent, accurate phonetic readers.

This is a propaganda technique called “The Big Lie” John. You may be
familiar with it as it was practiced by your fellow anti-semites in
Germany during WWII. The truth is that all research shows whole language
produces a higher percentage of fluent readers than the traditional
textbook-in-isolation methods. In other words, the author is lying by
stating the EXACT OPPOSITE of the truth, and pretending that this is some
great secret…of course there was a lot of that in the first post you put
up…so perhaps you can remember seeing other examples of this nonsense
before, eh?

You will also note that the author subtly juxtaposes two educational terms
in an attempt to blur a major distinction. Fluent readers are folks who
read like adults. Phonetic readers are those children in an early stage
of reading where they are still sounding out the words. You can tell late
stage phonetic readers by watching their mouth and throat – they’ll
subvocalize the word sounds, in order to ‘hear them’ sufficiently to check
for accuracy. Fluent readers do not do this. Rather, they have moved
beyond having to sound out the words one syllable at a time, and have
moved on to the stage of being able to scan text interpret it internally,
thus reading much faster than would be possible under a sound-it-all-out
system. Fluent readers, read like adults. In attempting to juxtapose the
terms fluent reader and phonetic reader, the propagandist is merely
working to insure your confusion, nothing else.

> It is a
>new way of creating reading disability, academic confusion and
>learning frustration, a new way of crippling a child’s linguistic
>development.”

There is no valid research to support any of these accusations. In point
of fact the research available shows just the reverse to be true. Because
the traditional textbook methodology either partially or completely shuts
out several types of learners, (remember the kids in high school who could
barely read, but could do wonderful things in shop class, or with musical
instruments? I suggest that you might want to read Howard Gardener’s
book MULTIPLE INTELLIGENCES, to find out why) the tradtional textbook
methodology increases reading problems and *decreases* the likelihood of
producing fluent readers. ‘academic confusion’ is a nonsense term,
although we’ve already seen your author has no aversion to misuse of
words, as long as they sound impressive. Whole language provides
opportunities to approach topics from a variety of directions, thus
actually decreasing the students’ frustration level; and finally
linguistic development is a psycho-social function, of which the
educational process is only one contributing factor. In other words,
John, the author is clueless and assumes that you will be too, otherwise
you wouldn’t buy into his nonsense.

>
>And Blumenfeld proves everything he says with thorough, eye-opening
>documentation.

No, John, actually he doesn’t. His entire book is written in the same
manner as this excerpt I’ve just critiqued – it uses standard propaganda
techniques including the Big Lie, misuse of terms, misdefinition of terms,
and nonsense terms, in an attempt to build a case out of thin air. Once
you get rid of all of his propaganda, that’s still all you have left –
thin air.

Wake up John! You’ve been had!

Arlin H. Adams M.Ed., NRA Life Member, Militia member, and Libertarian
Curmudgeon.

From [email protected] Mon May 27 15:29:39 PDT 1996
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Date: Sun, 26 May 96 17:48:14 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Militia Watchdog
Lines: 10

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Janet
L. Littler) writes:

>. C’mon, get your oar in the water.

actually Janet, many of us have long wondered if he was capable of having
both oars in the water πŸ™‚

Arlin

From [email protected] Tue May 28 08:47:40 PDT 1996
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Date: Tue, 28 May 96 4:03:27 GMT
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Subject: Re: Hill wants state control of internet
Lines: 8

In article <[email protected]>, Eric Engelmann
writes:

>His web page note speaks for itself.

cheez Eric, you expect him to take *responsibility* for his actions???
but he’s a liberal….

From [email protected] Tue May 28 15:23:25 PDT 1996
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Date: Tue, 28 May 96 15:18:15 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Reno’s death squad
Lines: 132

Hi Harry,

> We’re done. Period. I went to several militia and
> 10th Amendment meetings since ’93. I hate to say it,
> but what I saw was a small band of devout, but loser,
> Christians. I gave it a fair chance.

hmm, well, that depends. IF you at least tried to do something, tried to
make a change, and failed at doing so, then I guess I could agree that you
‘gave it a fair chance’. On the other hand, if you sat around at those
meetings waiting for someone else to tell you what to do, then no, all
you’ve really done is seek a rationalization for your own inaction.
There’s a big difference.

> Hell, most of them didn’t even *exist* on paper. What
> are *they* going to do? Nothing, that’s what.
>
> Absolutely nothing.

Oh, I don’t know about “absolutely nothing”, though certainly the results
will be diminished to the degree that you and your skills will not be
present to assist them. Tell me, Harry, if we fail, but only by a small
margin, will you have any problems looking at yourself in the mirror, or
will you continue to go on pointing your finger elsewhere, saying ‘him –
he was the one who didn’t do enough!’ ?

> Likewise with the American public. Nothing, as long Sam
> keeps making empty promises that they can hang some small
> MOLECULE of hope upon.

uh, Harry, WE are the American public – each of us – you, me, and that guy
behind the tree. If you, or I, or anyone else, wants the ‘American
public’ to do something, guess where they have to start? Yep, right there
at home.

> I thought that Duke might accomplish something, too.
>
> Nothing.

Well, I’m not a David Duke fan – I’m allergic to klan members – but my
question remains the same Harry – if you thought he might have
accomplished something, what did you do to help?

> The “Republican Revolution” is another sad joke.

Again the question arises – if this seemed like an opportunity for
positive change, where were you when it began? What were *you* doing?

> You’re certainly free to sacrifice yourself on some
> noble but hopeless cause. It doesn’t matter a lot to
> me.

au contraire Harry! It obviously matters a great deal to you, or you
wouldn’t be here on m.a.m. seeking self-justification. Now that you know
you wont find it here, what will *you* do next? You see Harry, the
problem with individual responsibility is that you can’t really run away
>from it. Since the responsibility is *yours*, is in fact actually a part
of you (as it is a part of each of us) you simply can’t escape it. Will
you turn and face your responsibilities Harry, or will you try running
somewhere else?

> It’s kind of sad, but personally, I can’t see
> getting myself killed or imprisoned for a bunch of
> lazy, middle-class knuckleheads, no matter how
> cool-sounding the slogans are.

hmm, let’s see, those ‘knuckleheads’ are actively trying to change a bad
situation, and you aren’t…if *they* are lazy, where does that leave you?
[oh, and BTW, most of us AREN’T here for the ‘cool sounding slogans’
either – it’s the ideas behind the slogans that matter Harry – just
thought you’d want to know.]

> Actually, it’s pretty damn funny to me a lot of time.
> It’s like watching a bad movie.

perhaps so, but the question you need to ask yourself is whether or not
life is supposed to be a spectator sport….

> It took a couple of years, but my wife finally talked
> some sense into me. “We take care of ourselves now,
> we can’t save other people” “Our family comes before
> political or ethical ideals”

if you give up your ethics, what will be left to hold your family
together?

> Hell, half the patriots are CROOKS! They’re scamming
> the system, jabbering about the Constitution while
> doing White Power salutes. It’s incredible to me. The
> dang Christians are jabbering about “freedom”, and then
> jabbering about the “right to life” in the next, and
> jabbering about “the drug war” in the next.

That’s funny, Harry, none of the people I work with use ‘white power’
anything. My group includes Christians, at least one Zen practitioner, a
couple of new age types, we’re very ecumenical. We don’t jabber a whole
lot either. On the other hand, since I’m one of the folks who helped get
the group started (primarily because I hadn’t found one I really wanted to
join, up to that point) I guess my question to you is – if you didn’t like
the group that was already there, why didn’t you at least *try* to form
one of your own – one you *would* be comfortable associating with?

> When they figure out that they can’t abridge other
> people’s “freedom” without abridging their own, maybe
> they’ll get somewhere.

Without you there to help them learn that, Harry, how much longer do you
think it will take before they discover it on their own?

> It’s not going to happen, though. It’s a very bad
> bet at this point. Much better to bet on Sam, I think.
>
> Hail, Caesar!

You might try studying a little history, Harry. If you do, I think you’ll
find that those who grovel are only safe as long as there are others, like
us, who resist the Beast. If we are in fact destroyed, the Beast’s
appetite will not be sated, it’s thirst for blood will not be slaked, and
it will need to find other prey. What will you do then, Harry? What will
YOU do then?

From [email protected] Tue May 28 15:23:26 PDT 1996
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Date: Tue, 28 May 96 15:48:35 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: @@@@You people are nothing but [email protected]@@@@@@@
Lines: 9

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Scott Alan
Malcomson) writes:

>Then you’re amazingly capable of skimming past the reams that have been
>posted here concerning federal failures to police their own when their
>own kill people (eg, Ruby Ridge/Waco).

Oh, c’mon Scott! it’s easy! all he has to do is close his eyes….

From [email protected] Tue May 28 15:23:27 PDT 1996
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Date: Tue, 28 May 96 15:33:19 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Where can i down load Mein Kamp written by Adolf Hitler on the internet
Lines: 15

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Michael
Hollomon, Jr.) writes:

>I would have no idea. But you are asking in the right place. I’m
>sure one of our resident militists will be happy to whip that out from
>his hotlist and email it to you in a jiffy.

y’know kid, if you’d actually bothered to *read* any of this newsgroup,
before wading in, you might have discovered that we tend to chase the
nazidiots out of here whenever they raise their unwashed heads.

Arlin H. Adams
[Who, among other things, has been declared a ‘race traitor’ by the white
supremacists]

From [email protected] Tue May 28 15:23:27 PDT 1996
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Date: Tue, 28 May 96 16:33:12 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: ALERT
Lines: 10

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (JHistorian)
writes:

>
> I’ve sent the message and reply to AOL for them to determine who it
>is that did write it. I shall be more than appy to find out who it was
>and whta can be done about showing them the error of their ways.

Thankyou. Please let me know what you find out in this matter.

From [email protected] Tue May 28 15:23:28 PDT 1996
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Date: Tue, 28 May 96 16:48:03 GMT
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Subject: Re: Jewish Conspiracy Proof? –>>
Lines: 12

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (JHistorian)
writes:

> It reminded me too much
>of the same fanatical refusal of you militiaboys to even begin to
consider
>that there is more than one way to skin the proverbial cat.

sorry you feel that way, Jim. Y’see there are as many different cat
skinning techniques as there are militia units…versatility is one of our
strong suites.

From [email protected] Tue May 28 21:11:08 PDT 1996
Article: 20227 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 28 May 96 16:18:06 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Who are the Officers of maltia groups
Lines: 12

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Scott Alan
Malcomson) writes:

>
> Now, let’s get this straight: only groups of armed people in
>outright rebellion against their lawful government are “real” Militia?

no, no, Scott, you missed the point! according to mark, the ‘real’
militia are ANYONE other than us…haven’t you figured that out yet? πŸ™‚

Arlin

From [email protected] Tue May 28 21:11:09 PDT 1996
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Date: Tue, 28 May 96 17:03:03 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Get used to it…You will lose all your rights sooner or later and there’s
Lines: 22

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Michael
Hollomon, Jr.) writes:

>You have already admitted (aw, don’t try and take it back now) that
>*any* restriction on your personal liberties is per se unreasonable.
>Accordingly, you feel that the Constitution should guarantee every
>American the right to: (1) ingest any and every kind of narcotic
>known; (2) carry concealed all manner of military devices and weaponry
>(including weapons grade plutonium); and (3) advocate and promote
>*any* agenda, including the assasination of our President and the
>violent overthrow of our government.

y’know, Michael, I can’t really decide what’s better about your trolls –
that you spend so much time on them, thus keeping you off the streets, and
effectively out of action; or that once you figure out that you will
accomplish nothing here, you will have generated so many new nightmares
for yourself, through fantasies like those above, that you are most
likely to do the typical liberal thing and simply blame yourself. After
all, as a liberal you believe it’s all your fault, anyway, now don’t you?

Arlin Adams

From [email protected] Wed May 29 14:03:18 PDT 1996
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Date: Wed, 29 May 96 3:18:26 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Christian Identity
Lines: 14

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Tim Hill)
writes:

>No, they just bomb day care centers and defend folks like David Koresh
>who execute children after a lifetime of raping them.

tim, tim, tim, you’ve been trying this same troll for the last two
years…no militia person, ever bombed any day care center, and Koresh was
still an American citizen with the same basic rights as anyone else. See,
I’ve got the entire rebuttal down to less than a paragraph. You really
need to try a different song.

Arlin Adams

From [email protected] Wed May 29 14:03:20 PDT 1996
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Date: Wed, 29 May 96 3:18:37 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: eplurubus unum website
Lines: 10

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Matthew
Gaylor) writes:

>Proof positive that public education is deficient. See the above
sentence
>for confirmation.

Now Matthew, you know he’ll just claim that his grammar is the only legal
grammar…:-)

From [email protected] Wed May 29 14:03:21 PDT 1996
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Date: Wed, 29 May 96 3:03:05 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: “Worst Nightmare”
Lines: 11

In article <[email protected]>, Solomon
writes:

oh look! a troll! how droll!
and just look at whose name he stole!

Arlin
[who figured Dr. Seuss was about the level the troll’s author was ready
for, in any case]

From [email protected] Wed May 29 14:03:22 PDT 1996
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Date: Wed, 29 May 96 3:03:19 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Democracy vrs Freedom
Lines: 15

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:

>Do you think that early Americans all had easy access to a “Bonne Homme
>Richard”?

uh, mark, I think you missed the logic here:
a. The Bonne Homme Richard was a privately owned ship.
b. The Bonne Homme Richard was armed with military weapons.(cannon, don’t
you know…)
therefore
c. Military weapons were available for private ownership.

simple enough, really.

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Date: Wed, 29 May 96 3:03:30 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Ohio and Schweitzer
Lines: 24

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Scott Alan
Malcomson) writes:

>: Mililitia ‘Chaplain’?? Heh a man of god playing with guns and
>: wearing cammies.
>
>ROFL! Hempster, even my OLD chaplain — the one who served the 3rd
>Squadron, 3rd Armored Cavalry Regiment, U.S. Army — wore cammies! As
>for toting rifles, it’s hardly unheard of. Try reading up on the Battle o

>the Bulge for some examples of chaplains in combat, some of whom were
>awarded Congressional Medals of Honor…some posthumously.

Hi Scott,
pardon for jumping in, but since frankie is apparently ignorant of the
history of military chaplains, I’d just like to interject that the history
of armed chaplains extends at *least* back to to WWII. Y’see my dad was
an Army chaplain with one of the combat engineer groupss which helped
recapture New Guinea. He, and all of his fellow chaplains were required
by general orders to go armed at all times. Good thing, too, as he had to
USE said firearm defensively on several occaisions.

Arlin Adams

From [email protected] Wed May 29 14:03:23 PDT 1996
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Date: Wed, 29 May 96 3:03:50 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Reno’s death squad
Lines: 345

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Harry
Langford) writes:

> As posted before, I did write letters, for almost
> two years, to various congress reps.
>
> A waste of time. Simply looking at the legislation
> that’s been passed in that time is proof.

Harry, that’s why *we* are all here. I doubt there’s anyone among the
militia members here on m.a.m. who hasn’t repeatedly called, written, or
faxed their congresscritter, handed out leaflets, done volunteer work, all
of that. Once the system proved that it had become almost totally
unresponsive, slowly, and for some of us painfully, we became aware that
armed resistance may well be the only effective alternative left. I
dunno, I guess it’s just that, for most of us, running away isn’t seen as
a positive option.

> I also wasted several hundred dollars in donations,
> copies, transcripts, etc.

Hmm, I guess it depends on who you donated to, can’t really comment on
that, other than to say that even though I live just above the poverty
level, I still send a hundred bucks or so the NRA every year…not because
I think they can rescue the situation all by themselves, but because any
organization which stands up for individual rights makes it that much
harder for the statists to operate. I guess I think of it as putting my
money where my mouth is, you know?

As far as the ‘copies, transcripts, etc’ go, again, I’m uncertain of
exactly what you purchased, but I would ask you if, had you not gotten
that material, would you be as aware of the problems facing us as you are
now? Would you have known to your current degree of certainty just how
corrupt and evil portions of our government have become? We pay for
knowledge in different ways, not always with money, but as long as we
learn from our expenditures, I’m not at all sure we can call them a
complete waste of effort.

> Although, I have to admit, I did get to see the real
> FLIR video out of it all. That alone was worth the
> price.

ah, my point exactly.

>: present to assist them. Tell me, Harry, if we fail, but only by a
small
>: margin, will you have any problems looking at yourself in the mirror,
or
>: will you continue to go on pointing your finger elsewhere, saying ‘him

>: he was the one who didn’t do enough!’ ?
>
>
> Nope. I’ve already got my Canadian passport ready. πŸ™‚

uh, Harry, if you’ll notice in the above, I didn’t specify from where you
might go on pointing your finger….

>: uh, Harry, WE are the American public – each of us – you, me, and that
guy
>: behind the tree. If you, or I, or anyone else, wants the ‘American
>: public’ to do something, guess where they have to start? Yep, right
there
>: at home.
>
> Oh, come on.

Well, okay, maybe that guy behind the tree is just there to report on our
conversation, so I guess that only leaves you and me, eh?:-) More
seriously though, I would ask you to stop and think for a moment – whether
or not you like it, you *are* a role model. For the young, those less
fortunate, those who have perhaps begun to realize that something has gone
terribly wrong in the world, but aren’t quite sure yet what to do about it
– those folks. THOSE are the people who are looking around, trying to
find examples, trying to learn from the actions of others, the best way to
deal with this current mess that we’re in. Here you are, an older,
successful guy, someone who looks and acts quite knowledgable about the
situation. So tell me, Harry, what do such folks learn from watching you?
What does your example teach them?

> Charles Duke. Donated money.

My most humble appologies for misunderstanding.

> You know what’s really funny? I’m essentially
> a Fed, so I get crap and suspicion from the militia guys,
> ’cause I have money to donate and have short hair and
> white socks.
>
> I get crap from the Feds because I actually believe
> there should be non-baised enforcement of laws, that the laws
> apply to everyone.
>
> What the hell kind of crap is this?

well, it’s crap, no doubt about that, but nothing any number of other
folks, including myself, haven’t gone through. Harry, I used to work for
an INTELLIGENCE organization…do you have any IDEA of the level of
garbage people in the movement threw at me when I first got involved? And
yes, I *still* have short hair. And yes I still wear white socks some
times…except NOW they’re white BOOT socks.

> Seriously, what kind of deal is it where *I* get
> shafted by both sides, when I’m really tired of both sides,
> and when I could be plundered the system for some good cash?

The same deal received by everyone else who works to maintain their moral
and ethical standards in this decaying society. Why in the heck do you
think WE are all HERE?

>: Again the question arises – if this seemed like an opportunity for
>: positive change, where were you when it began? What were *you* doing?
>
> Wasting time and money.
> Writing worthless letters.

In other words you were taking every available action you could think of,
and learning that those sorts of actions were no longer effective. Just
like the rest of us, you were learning from your mistakes. C’mon Harry,
everybody makes mistakes, and the ones you made are the same ones WE all
made. The lessons you learned were the lessons WE learned as well –
that’s why we’ve all, in the end, found ourselves here.

> Actually, this is true. It does matter to me.
> What matters to me is that I’ve always had this
> picture of how the country is. And it’s not true.

Harry the ideal is rarely found, and even more rarely maintained. But
that doesn’t make it any less valid as an ideal, as a goal for which to
strive.

> It’s taken me several years to figure it out, but
> the great majority of hte population doesn’t believe
> in equal rights. They claim to, but they don’t.

The majority of the population doesn’t understand what equal rights
actually entail. They certainly don’t understand that equal rights *also*
require equal responsibilities. Obviously, they can’t *do* something they
don’t currently comprehend. But that doesn’t mean that they can’t learn.
My experience has been that people learn these sorts of things best by
being exposed to consistent examples – what do you think?

> The great majority of the population doesn’t believe
> in honesty.

I certainly couldn’t say *what* the great majority of the population
believe, since as we just discussed, most of them don’t understand the
real implications of much of what they *claim* to believe. I can,
however, say that the people with whom I willingly associate value honesty
highly, else I would not go near them.

> There *are* posted rules, but if you play
> by them, you end up bitter and poor. I’m doing MUCH
> better, financial, since I started playing by the real
> rules.

hmm, well, as a Libertarian, I generally play by *my* rules. I guess my
question in this instance, Harry, is this: whose rules are *you* playing
by?

> I would wish that we had a real American culture in
> the country, but quite frankly, we don’t. I absolutely
> don’t believe it anymore.

Culture is something that happens when people come together and form real,
supportive, communities. In many places no such real communities exist.
Therefore the only semblance of culture is some sort of destructive,
self-involved, hedonistic temporary construct. I would certainly classify
NYC as such a place. Good heavens, large portions of THIS metropolitan
area (DC) are also that way…but that doesn’t excuse me from working with
*my* friends to build the kind of community to which *we* aspire…I guess
you’d call it an American community – I know we sure do.

> Don’t knock running until you try it. It’s done *me*
> a world of good. I wonder if Canada will be as good
> an opportunity?

Well, it would seem that running has kept you alive. It would also seem
that it hasn’t kept you very happy. Any idea why that might be?

> Sure, the ideas matter. But not to the bulk of the
> population.

Harry, right now the bulk of the population doesn’t even know what the
ideas, and ideals, of freedom are! They’ve been indoctrinated against
them for a long, long, time. 25 years ago, when I was in high school,
there was a musical group known as The Fifth Dimension – you may have
heard of them. One of the songs they recorded was a portion of the
Declaration of Independence, set to music – The part that begins with the
words “We hold these truths…”. One Sunday, they sang that song as part
of the half time show for a football game – the network was subsequently
innundated by phone calls from angry viewers wanting to know why they’d
allowed *communist* propaganda on the air. That was a quarter of a
century ago. The point of all this, Harry is that much of the struggle
which lies before us is NOT a contest of arms (though it may indeed come
to that) but a process of EDUCATION. In as much as this is so, we, in our
capicity as the militias, are at *least* as much teachers as we are
fighters.

> The bulk of the population are inherently dishonest,
> but desperately trying to convince themselves that
> they’re not.

This, I cannot speak to, as I am not empowered to judge their moral values
– only to maintain my own.

> Why should *I* get killed defending a bunch of clowns
> who *deserve* to be plundered by an evil government?

Well, I can’t answer that either, since I don’t hang out with that sort of
individual. If I have to die, it will be in defense of my friends, who
make up the community of which I am a part. Maybe the situation is such,
that what you really need to do is find a more constructive
community…but then I think I’ve mentioned that already.

> It’s not a question of “giving up ethics”. It’s
> a matter of adopting ethics that work. The only
> purpose for ethics in a society is to enhance the
> survival value of its members.

ah well, here we stand in very different spaces, you and I. For I hold
that the only purpose of ethics in a community are to operationalize the
moral values of the community members.

> If my “ethics” endanger my survival, what good
> are they?

If survival means constantly running, living in anger and fear, what good
is that?

> I refuse to be exploited anymore on the basis of
> an ethical heritage that isn’t working.

No one can exploit us against our will, Harry. It is always a choice
whether we allow someone power over us, or not. Anything less is an
abrogation of individual responsibility.

> That’s a good question. Probably because I have
> no desire to be a “leader”.

May I ask why you would not wish to be a leader?

> I’ve found, over the
> past few years, that I don’t particularly like
> people in general.

Ah, here my question is: people in general, or simply those you associate
with currently?

> It’s like watching a bunch of robots going through
> the motions. Do you think Holloman can *think*?

Hmm, if you mean that in the sense of ‘is he currently using his intellect
in a critical, analytical fashion’ then I would agree that he is not. But
he’s young, Harry, and he’s been very heavily indoctrinated – we can all
see that. Yet I believe he has the capacity to think. Our challenge with
here, then, is to confront him in ways that may force him to exercise that
capacity.

> I don’t think Pittcavage can, either.

Ah, well now, pittcavage is another kind of a beastie altogether. He
*can* think. It’s just that he’s in continual self-inflicted pain. His
low self image, which he externalizes through his pitiful attempts at
snobbery, makes him incapable of considering himself to be an acceptable
human being. In order to off-set this, he has taken on the impossible
task of attempting to single-handedly stop the movement. Of course we
continue to grow apace, which means that his self image continues to
lower, his self-inflicted pain continues to grow, and he struggles even
harder, wallowing along toward his inevitable selfdestruction. The only
question in my mind, is whether he has intentionally chosen this evil
road, or whether the pain, even at the start, was so intense as to blind
him to the basic concepts of right and wrong. I doubt we’ll ever know.

> In fact,
> as near as I can estimate, at least half the
> population can’t think; they just react with their
> programming.

I wont debate the fact that a large portion of the population is running
on autopilot, but as I pointed out concerning Holloman, that doesn’t mean
they couldn’t be educated.

> If they’ve spent even 1/10 of the time I have,
> it should be goddamn SELF EVIDENT by now.

Certainly, had they understood that to which they were exposed. Part of
that educational process I was talking about, before, involves helping
them to understand the problems, even helping to understand that there ARE
problems…it’s all part of the same struggle, Harry.

> They’re programmed. They’re not going to
> change.

Not without help, they aren’t.

> I’ve quite enough history, thank you.
> It’s not particularly salable.

shame on you Harry! studying history isn’t about salability – it’s about
survival. I thought survival was your penultimate concern…..

>
>: it will need to find other prey. What will you do then, Harry? What
will
>: YOU do then?
>
>
> Oh, come on. The longer Sam squeezes, the
> more militia types are going to pop up. Sam
> has his hands full now. I hardly doubt that
> Sam will exhaust his potential enemies during
> the time frame I need.

To run away again? Sam is not the Beast itself, merely it’s current
incarnation. You’ve run from the Beast before, Harry, you’ve said as much
yourself. It wasn’t Sam last time, was it? Yet it was still the Beast.
It wont be Sam next time, but it will still be the Beast. It feeds on
fear Harry, the more people flee, the more it follows them. The *only*
thing which hold it at bay, is when people turn and fight. Not everyone
wins Harry, and not all the time, but fighting is really our only
chance…and although it may indeed be cliche’, I, at least, would still
rather die on my feet than live on my knees. What about you, Harry? What
about you?

Arlin H. Adams

From [email protected] Wed May 29 14:03:24 PDT 1996
Article: 20289 of misc.activism.militia
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In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (PGISSource)
writes:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (AHABIZ) writes:
>
>>cheez Eric, you expect him to take *responsibility* for his actions???
>>but he’s a liberal….
>
>Humph, Arlin.
>
>Geez, _some_ of us liberals take responsibility. Besides, is he really a
>liberal? Or just a profiteer trying to cash in on a hysteria?

Okay, Wiz, I stand corrected, *some* liberals DO take responsibility for
their actions, tim just isn’t one of them. as for a profiteer, I don’t
know that much about him – don’t tell me HE’s playing “expert” too now!
Yeesh!

Arlin

From [email protected] Wed May 29 14:03:25 PDT 1996
Article: 20296 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Wed, 29 May 96 5:03:05 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Gov’t 101 – Lesson 1 (Was Re: Get used to it…)
Lines: 187

Michael,

I received this initially as email, therefore I am responding via email.
If
the same post also later shows up on the newsgroup, I will post an
identical
copy of this response there, as well.

In a message dated 96-05-27 03:51:09 EDT, you write:
>On Sun, 26 May 96 19:33:03 GMT, [email protected] (AHABIZ) wrote:
>>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Michael
>>Hollomon, Jr.) writes:

>>ah, so tell me Michael, if the point comes where you find that reason no
>>longer prevails, what will you do then? What do you see as your
options,
>>should the government’s actions overstep *your* tolerance limits?
>
>Gee, Arlin, you *really* don’t get it, do you? Well let me try to
>explain it to you, one step at a time. In the U.S. our form of
>government is a “democracy.”

Incorrect assumption: The United States is actually a democratic
republic,
or a representative democracy, depending on which term you prefer, or at
least it was originally designed as such. A true democracy = 1
person/vote
on all issues. This has never occurred in this country.

>Well what is a democracy, you ask?
>
>1a: Government by the people; esp : rule of the majority

does not currently exist. In case you didn’t notice, Michael, only
something
like 29% of the electorate voted in the last election. Even more
importantly, the elected officials at the federal level actually make up
less
than 10 percent of the total government. The other 90% consists primarily
of
lifer bureaucrats, with a thin frosting of political appointees.
Majority
rule is a myth.

>1b: A government in which the supreme power is vested in the people
> and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of
> representation usu. involving periodically held free elections

which only functions so long as:
a. The majority of citizens actually deign to participate.
b. The elected officials’ actual authority and effectiveness outweighs
the
authority and effectiveness of the bureaucracies through which they are
forced to function.
and
c. The elections are truly free, in the sense that the electoral process
has
not been compromised by various power brokers and special interests in the
society.
None of those conditions currently exist either.

>2: A political unit that has a democratic government cap

uh, Michael, the People’s Republic of China could claim that their
‘political
unit’ has a democratic government cap, as well. That really doesn’t make
it
a democracy.

>3: The principles and policies of the Democratic party in the U.S.

LOL! well, it’s nice to meet an honest partisan. Not a valid element to
the
democratic process from a Libertarian perspective Michael, sorry, no sale.

>4: The common people esp. when constituting the source of political
> authority

ah, so big business, big labor, and the various other special interests
don’t
have *any* influence on the political system, eh? LOL again! you
wouldn’t
happen to work for the DNC by any chance, would you? Michael the entire
system has been designed to minimize the input of the common people for at
least the last hundred years! Your item #4. certainly doesn’t describe
anything like the present system. no sale.

>5: The absence of hereditary or arbitrary class distinctions or
> privileges.

Tell you what, Michael, you come out here to DC some time and I’ll
introduce
you to some FOURTH and FIFTH GENERATION welfare families – you can lecture
them about the lack of hereditary or arbitrary class distinctions in
American
society, okay? no sale with major points off for lack of reality on your
part.

>
>In short, a democracy, especially as practiced in the U.S., is a
>system of government in which the majority rules.

Already proven such a system does not exist in this country. See above.

Now that we’ve proven that, here’s a little question for you:

If people become aware that their government is no longer responsive to
their
needs, ignores all attempts at reform, and in fact is acting in a fashion
which directly inhibits their natural rights, seemingly moving to
increasing
levels of totalitarianism on a yearly basis should they:

a. sit around and pretend that voting alone will make it better?

b. bend over and stick their head in the sand, so that when the
government
does it to them they at least wont see it coming.

or

c. take whatever steps by whatever means they deem neccessary to secure
their rights, and their liberties.

If you answered a. or b. then I’m sure that you will have no problem
finding
a job with the current regime.

If you answered c. welcome to the resistance

>Well it certainly is a relief to see that you are not as stubborn in
>your prejudgments as are some of your cohorts. Now, if you would care
>to enlighten me as to those matters of which you believe me to be
>”misinformed,” I would be happy to *prove* you wrong in very short
>order.

I just have, and you just haven’t.

>Yeah well, I’m sure that the Oklahoma City bomber, no doubt an
>adherent of some of your miltist philosophies, would say that he was
>just taking *defensive* action against the onslaught of the evil
>empire (aka US Govt). After all, there’s no defense like a good
>offense, eh?

uh, no Michael, that’s in football. This is real life. It’s important to
try to remember the difference: Football is a spectator sport, real life
is
NOT. In real life the OKC bombers committed an atrocity, nothing more or
less. That was not a defensive reaction, and it most certainly was not
carried out by members of the local community. It was therefore, by
definition, NOT a militia action.

>If you were in fact merely becoming a *political* force, I would be
>happy for you (and would probably spend a lot less time in this
>newsgroup). The fact that you are readily willing to die for your
>cause gives me no cause for concern either. It is the fact that you
>are even more willing to *kill* your fellow countrymen for that cause
>which causes me some concern.

LOL! so if we don’t take all possible effective actions, or we allow
ourselves to be slaughtered, you think that’s just fine, but if we stand
up
in self-defense (a concept that, I guess, seems beyond you) you are
frightened. Decidedly no sale there, Michael, what you are recommending
is
the coward’s way out. Tell me Michael, do you see yourself as capable of
using lethal force in your own defense, under ANY circumstances? Somehow
I
doubt it….

Sorry, Michael, but you haven’t yet dispelled my belief that you are
basing
your views on naive, overly idealistic, (and generally wrong) assumptions.
It’s very clear to me that, to borrow a phrase, “you really don’t get it,
do
you?”

Arlin H. Adams

“I have sworn upon the altar of Almighty God, Eternal enmity toward every
form of tyranny over the mind of man.” – Thomas Jefferson

From [email protected] Wed May 29 14:03:26 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 28 May 96 17:33:08 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Jewish Conspiracy Proof? –>>
Lines: 17

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (JHistorian)
writes:

>* * * *
> Dewey was the quintessential pragmatist. It would be quite a stretch
>– although you seem to have no problems with such leaps of logic — to
>say that coincides with being a “proto-fascist.”
> I suspect that you, too, need to re-read Dewey’s writings.

Any time a person espouses a philosophy which disregards individual rights
in the search for ‘pragmatic’ solutions to the problems of industry, they
directly parallel the philosophy of the Itallian fascists during the
1930’s & 40’s…perhaps you’ve read the old saw about how they were going
to “make the trains run on time”…that was one of their primary goals –
the efficiency of industry…at all costs…sorry Jim, but I still think
Dewey was a proto-fascist.

From [email protected] Wed May 29 19:46:02 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Wed, 29 May 96 14:02:50 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Jewish Conspiracy Proof? –>>
Lines: 257

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (John
Dulaney) writes:

>AHABIZ ([email protected]) wrote:
>
>: In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (John
>: Dulaney) writes:
>
>
>: No, John, I speak from personal experience.
>
> And yet I have read “your” text countless times in the various
>educational newsgroups, but they come from union teachers, NEA people.

No John, you have not. you may *think* you have, in that you understand
so very little of what we are discussing that it may in fact all appear to
be the same to you, but you have seen nothing from union hacks like my
critique of goals 2000, or my critiques of OBE which have appeared in this
very newsgroup in the last year.

Look, I realize that you feel threatened by the fact that I directly
contradict your antisemitic propaganda. Of course you *could* simply
admit that you were wrong, that you really don’t know what you’re talking
about, but that solution doesn’t assuage your ego sufficiently. Thus you
try to convince yourself that I am somehow a member of some superduper
conspiracy model, one that, by the way, was stolen directly from the
nazidiots, who in turn, stole it from the antisemitic morons who wrote
‘the protocols of the elders of zion’ who in THIER TURN stole it from
medeaval sources. If you would only study a little history you would see
you’ve fallen for the same propaganda that’s been used for over 700 years,
it was false then, and it’s false now.

You are a ringer, friend.
> A Quiseling.
> A phoney “militia-member” sent here to disarm and disinform the
>public.
> The war you fight is against truth, against life, against freedom
>and our Constitution.
> You are no Libertarian. You are an Extremist-Leftist fraud.

I stand on my record. What I have written is readily available in the
DejaNews index. If you are so confused that, following your reading of my
accumulated postings, you *still* cannot tell what a Libertarian believes,
then I suggest you contact the Libertarian Party for further instruction.
In the meantime, you discredit only yourself by accusing me of things
which are so obviously false that your lies are readily apparent to all.

> And yet…isn’t it odd that you defend the NEA programs which have
>and are destroying our nation.

You haven’t been paying attention again, John. I have been a consistent
critic of the Goals 2000 program since it’s inception. Also, I have on
several occaisions IN THIS VERY NEWSGROUP spoken to the perversion of the
performance based origins of OBE by the leftist leadership of the NEA.
Anyone who has been reading this newsgroup for more than a couple of
months knows this…at least anyone who has been paying
attention…obviously John, YOU are not among that number.

>: I’m also a Libertarian, and a militia member, to claim that I am ‘part
of
>: the system’ is not only absurd, but irrational.
>
> And while you claim the above your words reflect strict Leftist
>agit-prop, disinformation and at the same time you mount it all on the
>usual well-rehearsed phoney moral plane.

John you have yet to do anything other than call me names. Show me one
factual piece of evidence which supports your perverse notion that I am
not a Libertarian…just one John…one little fact…or admit that the
reason you insist on calling me names is because you HAVE no factual
evidence. You have no explanation for the discontinuities, half-truths
and outright lies which your antisemitic propaganda contains and which I
consistently point out in front of the world. You have no explanation for
any of these things other than to call anyone who disagrees with you a
‘leftist’ . Wrong answer John. I have given you facts. I have corrected
your half truths, your lies, your discontinuities…and I will continue to
do so EVERY SINGLE TIME YOU POST THEM IN THIS FORUM.

Face it John, this is not where you belong. You need to be over with your
fellow antisemites in one of the ‘white power’ forums…you know, with all
the other little nazidiots. Antisemitism, and EVERY OTHER FORM OF RACIAL
DISCRIMINATION is in direct opposition to the underlying principles of the
Declaration of Independence, The Constitution, and the Bill of Rights. No
exceptions, No excuses. As long as you continue to espouse your
antisemitic nonsense, then you most assuredly cannot claim to be
supporting the ideals of the founding fathers; even to attempt such a
thing marks you as a complete hypocrit.

> If facts fail you, if logic fails you, if the law fails you then
>attack the messenger and beg for sympathy as handicapped.

John I’ve repeatedly pointed out the factual inconsistencies, and logical
fallicies of your arguments. None of my assertions have ever been
contradicted by you – you haven’t even attempted to answer them. All you
do is call me names, and impugn my motives…and you say *I* haven’t stuck
to the facts??? sheesh! IF you had posessed a fact to your name, you
could have at least attempted a rebuttal, but you never have. Why is
that, John? Could it be because you really don’t understand what we’re
attempting to discuss, and thus have to resort to name calling? That
certainly *seems* to be the case.

> I dare say that not only have I been
>: fighting for truth a lot longer than you have,
>
> You dare?
> I’ve fought Communists since 1969 in Italy with my fists and the
>flesh off my skull.

Who won? More to the point, in your world travels, how did you manage to
avoid learning that convincing someone of intelligence requires logical
persuasion, based on factual evidence? Neither of which have been
provided by you.

> There are two things you should NEVER call a
>: libertarian, without hard evidence to support them – Never accuse a
>: libertarian of cheating, and never, ever, accuse a libertarian of
lying.
>
> I accuse you of lying.
> What pomposity!
> ROTFL!
> Are you 12 years old?

No, I am a man of honor, a thing of which you appear to have little
understanding.

>: Because we do not function under ‘implied’ or ‘inherited’ contracts,
>
> We?
> You believe to call yourself a Libertarian means you are enrolled
>in the Justice League of America?

No, that wasn’t the ‘royal we’ John, when I shifted to the plural it was
intended to indicate that I was speaking of libertarians generally – in
other words, providing the libertarian philosophical background neccessary
for you to understand my reactions. Sorry, next time I’ll be more direct.

>: social or otherwise, the only contracts we abide by are those on which
we
>: give our word. Our word is our bond. My word is my bond.
>
> Are you 9 years old?

You really do know nothing of honor, do you?

> You have
>: falsly impugned my word, and in doing so you have falsly impugned my
>: honor. I shall remember that.
>
> Not if you went to public school.
> But if you can try (510) 673-0101

John I have no reason to call your phone number. You seem to mistake
argument with debate. You argue, I debate. I have no wish to argue with
you verbally – I’m doing just fine here. I will simply bide my time,
criticizing your posts, and making sure the world sees them for the
foolishness they truly are. But should you ever require assistance, be
assured that I shall not be there for you, and I shall insure that anyone
who asks me about you knows exactly what sort of person you are.

>: Actually, John, none of the texts I used were from the NEA,
>
> Actually I’ve read it, always paraphrased as ordered, not less
>than 30 times since Jan. ’96.

No John, you didn’t, you simply don’t know enough about the topic to
understand what you read.

>: well, no, I’m not ‘stuck’ as the one thing I wont diverge from is the
>: truth.
>
> The brainwashed believe that lying for the cause of
>Totalitarianism is moral.
> In the cases in which you lie, like Clinton, you actually do
>believe it’s the truth.

John, I’m the one who has consistently shown the factual and logical
inaccuracies in YOUR posts. You have rebutted NONE of my critique, but
have consistently called me names and accused me of lying. That’s ALL
you’ve done. You are the one who has repeatedly demonstrated that you
have no real evidence in support of your beliefs, and yet you still seem
to cling to them…and you call *me* brainwashed?? John that isn’t even
rational.

> Guess my little addendum about lack of parental discipline really
>: struck a nerve, eh?
>
> Is that your debating point? Striking nerves in messengers that
>expose the truth to the world?
> I don’t recall reading that “addendum” anyway.

see I TOLD you that you didn’t understand what you were reading! sheesh!

>
> Funny thing, though, I got several email messages
>: from fellow militia members who had noted the same lack of discipline
and,
>: in fact attributed it to the same source. Funny how that worked out,
>: don’t you think? or do you now believe that your vaunted super-duper
>: conspiracy is playing mind control games on militia members? If that’s
>: the case, then how can you be certain they also aren’t playing mind
>: control games on you?
>
> You have all the evidence that a world-wide conspiracy exists and
>yet you deny it.

John, I’ve consistently shown the gaping, semi-truck sized holes in your
so-called world wide conspiracy, and you haven’t plugged any of those
holes yet. I catagorically state here and now that your antisemitic
broadsides prove nothing other than the bigotry of their author.

> You claim to be a Libertarian and militia member and this type of
>person would never disregard the possibility of a conspiracy and yet you
>do.

I do not disregard possible collusion by various power mongering elements
both within, and outside of, our government. What I do repudiate is your
irrational racist propaganda.

> Not only do you deny it you actively act as an eager agent to
>ridicule such a possibility.

NO, John, I’m just ridiculing the irrational nonsense you’ve been posting.

> Who are you fooling, friend?
> Not me.

LOL! John, I could not possibly make a bigger fool out of you than you’ve
already made of yourself.

Arlin H. Adams
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Mon, 27 May 96 4:33:48 GMT
Message-id: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Jewish Conspiracy Proof? –>>

From [email protected] Wed May 29 19:46:03 PDT 1996
Article: 20352 of misc.activism.militia
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Date: Wed, 29 May 96 14:03:31 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Jewish Conspiracy Proof? –>>
Lines: 29

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (John
Dulaney) writes:

>: The answer to this question is, of course that there are a number of
>: factors which have effected literacy rates. These include such things
as
>
> The rest unread.
> Thanks for repeating the NEA’s response.
> By your own black lies you defeat yourself.

thanks for admitting you read no one’s posts but your own.
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Date: Mon, 27 May 96 6:03:09 GMT
Message-id: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Jewish Conspiracy Proof? –>>

From [email protected] Thu May 30 11:00:35 PDT 1996
Article: 20367 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Wed, 29 May 96 15:48:04 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: A Call for Militiaman Assembly
Lines: 23

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (ronnie smith)
writes:

Uh Ron, little problem here:

Your first premise:

>EVERY free individual has States rights just as if they were a state
>themselves.

directly contradicts your second premise:

>in georgia, blacks have yet to receive States rights see the public
>record of petition for redress of greivances by Gregory Karl Davis
>in the courthouse records

There was the late unpleasantness, you may have heard about? The upshot
of it was that all people born in this country, or naturalized as citizens
are free, regardless of race.

Just thought you’d want to know
Arlin H. Adams

From [email protected] Thu May 30 11:00:36 PDT 1996
Article: 20390 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Wed, 29 May 96 14:33:05 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: guilty ,guilty, guilty
Lines: 23

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (ReillyJM)
writes:

>You mean Gingrich is guilty of crimes against the public for trying to
>defund the enforcement of environmental, work place, and food safety
laws?

LOL! J.M. get a grip! just because Newt expects you to act like a grown
up and take responsibility for your own health and well being, doesn’t
mean he’s doing anything wrong…in fact it proves to most of us that he’s
doing something right.

>Thank God Clinton was there to stop those House Republicans who are in
the
>pockets of polluters and international money. Gingrich is guilty as sin!

keep moaning, Clinton’s going to jail, and not just for land swindling and
embezzlement, either…I can hardly wait to see the spin they try to pull
of to keep the Mina drug deals covered up now….

Arlin H. Adams

From [email protected] Thu May 30 11:00:37 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Thu, 30 May 96 4:48:03 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Democracy vrs Freedom
Lines: 32

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:

>No, clearly it is you who missed the point. I never said that there were
no
>military weapons available for private ownership. I said that they were
in
>very short supply.
>
>

actually mark, what you said was that *firearms* were in short supply. It
was I who pointed out that while this was true for military weapons, due
to production limitations in the interior of the country, personal
firearms were quite common. I also pointed out that personal firearms,
while used by militia units in the early part of the Revolutionary War,
were phased out after the French began actively supplying military
muskets.

In point of fact, the military muskets used by both sides in the
Revolution were smoothbores – their effective *accurate* range against a
man sized target was only about 75 yards. While this was this was
certainly comparable to the smoothbores carried by some of the poorer
militia members, the rifles carried by others far out classed them. In
point of fact up until just before the Civil War, civilian firearms
available to anyone generally outclassed their military counterparts.
Even in the post-war years, with the expansion into the west, the military
was still issuing muzzle loaders, and then single shot Springfields, while
the civilians often carried Winchesters, Remingtons, and Henrys, some of
which were capable of sustained fire at three to five times the rate of
their military cousins.

From [email protected] Thu May 30 11:00:37 PDT 1996
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Date: Thu, 30 May 96 5:03:04 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: guilty ,guilty, guilty
Lines: 9

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:

>Clinton’s testimony was highly
>credible; they just didn’t feel it was relevant

hmm, just like everything else billy jeff says…sounds real good until
you actually stop and think about it…

From [email protected] Thu May 30 11:00:38 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Thu, 30 May 96 8:48:03 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Public Apology to the Constitutional Militia Movement
Lines: 32

Hi Mike,

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Michael
Hollomon, Jr.) writes:
> I have
>become convinced that equality for all Americans, regardless of race
>or sex, is among the agendas of many of those within the patriot
>movement.

Well obviously nobody can speak for the whole movement, but as for my
associates and myself, your gracious apology is graciously accepted.

> There are views expressed by those within the patriot
>movement which I vigorously and vociferously oppose,

yeah, I think we’re pretty clear on that too, trust me! πŸ™‚
More seriously, though, one of the many reasons this newsgroup is so
valuable, is that it allows us to state, and debate, our beliefs before
the world. I know that’s not always easy to see (our signal to noise
ratio can vary tremendously) but blocked as we are from the mainstream
media, this little newsgroup still gives us some chance to make our voices
to be heard.

I don’t think we expect the entire world to suddenly agree with us, heck
we don’t always agree with each other. You are certainly welcome to
express your considered opinions, and debate ours with us (even as we will
debate yours with you). Perhaps we will convince you, perhaps not, but if
we didn’t at least allow this opportunity to exist, we’d never even have
the chance to try!

Arlin Adams

From [email protected] Thu May 30 14:15:37 PDT 1996
Article: 20430 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Thu, 30 May 96 17:03:06 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: “Worst Nightmare”
Lines: 12

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Mo10Cav) writes:

>Do that one more time and
>we’re gonna ground you on Pitcavage’s Web Page, mister.

Ack! wait a minute! doesn’t that qualify as cruel and unusual??
hey…now are we talking *before* or *after* the proposed artillery fire
mission?????

Arlin
[who is thinking maybe he shouldn’t have asked…]

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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Thu, 30 May 96 17:03:14 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Gov’t 101 – Lesson 1 (Was Re: Get used to it…)
Lines: 33

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (ronnie smith)
writes:

>
>All the courtrooms in America are flying ILLEGAL flags
>title 36 USC
>distinctly says that you cannot decorate the American flag
>so the GOLD FRINGE is Illegal
>and therefore every Judge in America is a Traitor

Hi again Ronnie,

Couple of points here:

1. Treason is defined by the Constitution as either taking up arms
against the United States, or giving aid and comfort to the enemy. Those
are the ONLY two things which constitute treason in this country.
Redecorating the national flag is illegal, but treason it ain’t.

2. In point of fact, I believe if you check thoroughly that, while
national flags are not supposed to have fringe, there are historical
examples of exceptions to this in the case of the military, going back at
least as far as the Civil War. Since almost no one (including judges)
knows all of the laws concerning display of flags, banners, and ensigns
I’d imagine most folks just think it’s ‘pretty’.

All that being said, I believe that the gold fringe *does* make it a
military banner, which of course raises the question as to why one might
find it in a civilian courtroom…the federal court system is buying Army
surplus now?? I dunno…

Arlin Adams

From [email protected] Thu May 30 19:02:18 PDT 1996
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militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Thu, 30 May 96 5:18:04 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Jesus and Militias
Lines: 15

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] writes:

> Sorry Jim, but we are the only gods there are. Humans have the only
wisdom
>extant.

now THERE is a statement of blind faith, if ever I heard one…personally
I don’t agree with it, but to hold the fact that we are the only and
greatest of all thinking beings in the universe takes an absolutely
breath-taking leap beyond logic. how interesting it should come from an
athiest….

Arlin H. Adams

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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Thu, 30 May 96 5:18:19 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: exposing the myths.Dulaney rebutted
Lines: 106

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (John
Dulaney) writes:

>
>1) Are you so confused you haven’t got a clue as to who the real enemy
is?

nope, same enemies that freedom has always had – statists and racists.

>2) Did you know high level Russians have long ago admitted that without
> decades of continuous U.S. financial aid the Soviet Union would have
> collapsed in 18 months?

ayep, it’s called “Feeding the Hungry”, John; and the Guy who told us to
do that, wasn’t real concerned about where those hungry folks might be
living.

>3) Have you ever wondered why the U.S.A. has always favored and financed
> the harshest Communist countries (such as China) and turned it’s back
> on Democracies and free nations (such as Taiwan).

Hmm, well, I’ve always considered Britain and France a bit on the
socialist side, but I wouldn’t actually have called either of them ‘harsh’
until this last British anti-terrorism law went through. Germany, nope,
might be a whole bunch of other things, but I’m pretty sure ‘communist’
isn’t among them. Australia, heh, I’d love to see what happens the next
time you call an Aussie a communist, really I would! Could it be that, in
the case of the PRC, the state department weenies are just a might afraid
of a country with over a *billion* people in it? Could it also be that
Taiwan, up until it started to realize that we just might NOT step in and
save their bacon, was about as democratic as Japan, which is to say,
hardly at all? Oh and hey! how about those Japanese communists! Man,
they’re something else, aren’t they?

>4) Has it occurred to you that as soon as any “conservative” politician
> reaches Washington D.C. they suddenly forget their own beliefs and
> begin to rob us of our freedom and money just as fast as, or faster
> than, the Liberals?

It’s the water…er…no…it’s…the air…er…no..I forget…:-)

>5) Have you ever added up the enormous number of factors in life today
> that do not make sense? Have you ever sat down and tried to make a
list
> of those areas that DO make common sense?

hmm, well let’s see, there’s the light in the refrigerator…always
wondered if it was on when the door was closed…then there’s my thermos –
it keeps cold things cold, and hot things hot, but how does it know when
to do which??? And speaking of hot and cold, if my room airconditioner
blows cold air, which it does, why is the back side of it hot all the
time???? y’know, some of this stuff really doesn’t add up.

>6) Short of violence what is the best way to change the direction of the
> world today?

well, the ’94 election was a good start…all that danged grassroots
activism started to pay off. Given the time, and the fact that we’re
still armed, we’ll pull this thing off yet, one way or the other…

>7) Today, thanks to talk-radio and the Internet, you might guess what
> single organization is most feared by the media, the Democrats, the
> Liberals, the Communists, the Totalitarians and even the Republicans?

I’d have to say either the Libertarian Party [we’re the fastest growing
minority party in the US!], or COYOTE -the hookers union [but that’s only
>from what I’ve noticed driving through downtown DC after dark.

>8) Why have the Greens, Save-the-Earthers and other ecology-minded
> organizations recently turned against the One World Government
> Totalitarians and begun to embrace Pat Buchanan?

look man, all those years of doing illegal drugs *had* to take a toll
eventually…

>9) Are you aware that there is a single (not religious or political)
> informational organization that has long ago been exposing the truth
> as best it can but has been the target of the most intensive smear
> campaign ever mounted by the controlled media and politicians?

oh, you must mean US – the militias! of course!

>10) Did you know that you can end your confusion by reading history right
> here in the Internet, for free? All facts are 100% verifiable.

yep all three of them.

> The conclusion is inevitable.

I recommend keeping a paper bag handy for the equally inevitable nausea
and disgust, when you discover the depth of the racism and the incoherence
of the material presented there…oh well, I guess even Norm Olson has to
have *somebody* he can call weird…

Arlin Adams

From [email protected] Fri May 31 09:00:36 PDT 1996
Article: 20456 of misc.activism.militia
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In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:

>Don’t hold your breath.

oh, we aren’t, mark, generally we don’t have time…
From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:25:51 PDT 1996
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