Adams 0596-2, Adams Arlin H

Mike Light writes:
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]

>Sounds like an export opportunity for east-Europe and east-Asian nations.

yeah, and the prices are going to go through the roof!

From [email protected] Sun May 12 11:39:12 PDT 1996
Article: 18122 of misc.activism.militia
Sender: [email protected]
Approved: [email protected] (e141175ba093605b60412d4aa31462e0)
References: <[email protected]>
From: [email protected] (AHABIZ)
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Return-Path:
Posted-Date: 11 May 1996 02:30:06 -0400
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news.ironhorse.com!
sloth.swcp.com!tesuque.cs.sandia.gov!lynx.unm.edu!newshub.tc.umn.edu!spool.mu.edu!olivea!grapevine.lcs.mit.edu!
atype.com!militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sat, 11 May 96 6:33:29 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: “Freemen” holding child hostages ???????
Lines: 70

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Gary Newberry)
writes:

> UMMMM I’m not a ‘Rocket Scientist’ however , “I” wouldn’t expect to
>shoot at or kill anyone, much less a policeman or FBI/BATF Agent
>serving a search warrant and think I’m going to hole up and that they
>are going to just go away. I would KNOW that they are going to end the
>standoff sooner or later and root me and any followers out of my
>home/compound or whatever you want to call it by some means or method.

The correlary of this, would seem to be that you believe that the
government *does* have the right to, without provocation, shoot at you,
and attack your home using lethal force (a la the initial assault on the
Davidian compound), and that you would not resist such an assault. Is
that a correct assessment of your position?

>’Types” refers to the mindset of those who think they can flagrantly
>break the law that most everyone else obeys and arm themselves and
>attempt to get away with it. Lots of people have Kited checks ala the
>FM, most don’t them grab a gun and attempt to hold off law enfocement,

Okay, first off, nobody here is defending the FM’s actions vis a vis their
rather unique ideas on capital generation. However, what Typhanee and I
and some of the others are trying to get across to you is that you and
thee FM are operating from substantially different frame of reference.
To all appearances, the FM believe the federal government to be an illegal
and immoral organization. WHETHER OR NOT THAT IS REASONABLE TO YOU, in
order to understand *their* actions, you must understand what is
reasonable to them. Think of this as an extreme case of multiculturalism.
From *their* perspective they are acting in a logical manner, consistent
with their beliefs. It is because of this cultural collision that I fear
the end for these folks will not go well at all.

>in the same vein as most religious organizations wouldn’t shoot at or
>kill someone attempting to serve a search warrant.

I believe you’re talking about the Davidians again? If so, only if one
actually believes the story that the atf were attempting to serve a
warrant (which later testimony shows the atf agents didn’t even bother to
take with them), would this be a rational statement. You will be
hardpressed to find anyone on this newsgroup who believes such was the
case. For a more balanced view of what actually occurred in the initial
government assault on the Mt. Carmel compound, you might try reading Dick
Reavis’ book THE ASHES OF WACO.

>My point is ‘COMMON HORSE SENSE’, if YOU were in an armed standoff
>with law enfocement officials would YOU want ANY children around ?

Of course one would not intentionally wish to put children in harms way.
However, if one is poor (as are most of the FM) and one is surrounded in
one’s own home, as they are, there aren’t many options left. Not
everybody can pull out the gold card and send the kids off to Disney World
for a few weeks, you know? As importantly, please remember that both in
the case of the FM and the case of the Davidians, the federal government
is perceived *by*the*people*involved* as being inherently evil. Would you
choose to turn your children over to evil people, even if threatened at
gunpoint? Again, unless you understand the culture and perspective of
these folks, there is no adiquate way to determine their motivations.

>Did you miss the nationally syndicated political cartoon with a FM all
>dressed in his camouflage gear holding a rifle , with a child strapped
>to his chest ???

Interesting question. I guess my reaction is yes, indeed, I did miss that
cartoon, but that’s okay – my views are formed on experience, reading, and
thoughtful reflection; rather than political propaganda cartoons.

Arlin Adams

From [email protected] Sun May 12 11:39:13 PDT 1996
Article: 18130 of misc.activism.militia
Sender: [email protected]
Approved: [email protected] (9df5c11df8c9c0fa5e5533bd0b0e7bae)
References: <[email protected]>
From: [email protected] (AHABIZ)
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Return-Path:
Posted-Date: 12 May 1996 02:40:10 -0400
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!olivea!grapevine.lcs.mit.edu!atype.com!
militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sun, 12 May 96 6:53:38 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Chechan Militia
Lines: 14

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (PGISSource)
writes:

>Just out of curiosity, is this the philosophical orientation from which
>your comments derive? I’m just wondering, since Herr Kleim has some
>wonderful writings on how to apply and structure posts.

You know, Wiz, you’ve got a point there – especially when one considers
the fact that the nazidiots have been known to cooperate with radical Arab
anti-semitic groups in the past…interesting.

Arlin

From [email protected] Sun May 12 11:39:14 PDT 1996
Article: 18139 of misc.activism.militia
Sender: [email protected]
Approved: [email protected] (fc5a3259d564caacb2b7664137d7f8e2)
References: <[email protected]>
From: [email protected] (AHABIZ)
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Return-Path:
Posted-Date: 12 May 1996 02:39:35 -0400
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.miracle.net!news.randomc.com!imci5!
pull-feed.internetmci.com!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!grapevine.lcs.mit.edu!
atype.com!militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sun, 12 May 96 6:53:10 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Chechan Militia
Lines: 14

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (PGISSource)
writes:

>Just out of curiosity, is this the philosophical orientation from which
>your comments derive? I’m just wondering, since Herr Kleim has some
>wonderful writings on how to apply and structure posts.

You know, Wiz, you’ve got a point there – especially when one considers
the fact that the nazidiots have been known to cooperate with radical Arab
anti-semitic groups in the past…interesting.

Arlin

From [email protected] Sun May 12 11:39:15 PDT 1996
Article: 18172 of misc.activism.militia
Sender: [email protected]
Approved: [email protected] (60c5e75df2a5d4bff037eeacf8953433)
References: <[email protected]>
From: [email protected] (AHABIZ)
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Return-Path:
Posted-Date: 12 May 1996 02:39:12 -0400
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!uwm.edu!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!
news.uoregon.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!grapevine.lcs.mit.edu!atype.com!
militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sun, 12 May 96 6:52:56 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Chechan Militia
Lines: 14

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (PGISSource)
writes:

>Just out of curiosity, is this the philosophical orientation from which
>your comments derive? I’m just wondering, since Herr Kleim has some
>wonderful writings on how to apply and structure posts.

You know, Wiz, you’ve got a point there – especially when one considers
the fact that the nazidiots have been known to cooperate with radical Arab
anti-semitic groups in the past…interesting.

Arlin

From [email protected] Sun May 12 11:39:16 PDT 1996
Article: 18175 of misc.activism.militia
Sender: [email protected]
Approved: [email protected] (6475950ce7ce4f9130e7325be894a291)
References: <[email protected]>
From: [email protected] (AHABIZ)
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Return-Path:
Posted-Date: 12 May 1996 02:39:56 -0400
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!cancer.vividnet.com!
hunter.premier.net!news.nl.innet.net!INnl.net!news.be.innet.net!bofh.dot!INbe.net!plug.news.pipex.net!pipex!
tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!lade.news.pipex.net!pipex!tube.news.pipex.net!pipex!hole.news.pipex.net!pipex!oleane!
jussieu.fr!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!
bloom-beacon.mit.edu!grapevine.lcs.mit.edu!atype.com!militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sun, 12 May 96 6:53:32 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Chechan Militia
Lines: 14

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (PGISSource)
writes:

>Just out of curiosity, is this the philosophical orientation from which
>your comments derive? I’m just wondering, since Herr Kleim has some
>wonderful writings on how to apply and structure posts.

You know, Wiz, you’ve got a point there – especially when one considers
the fact that the nazidiots have been known to cooperate with radical Arab
anti-semitic groups in the past…interesting.

Arlin

From [email protected] Sun May 12 11:39:17 PDT 1996
Article: 18177 of misc.activism.militia
Sender: [email protected]
Approved: [email protected] (a6e0e76308cda6f925ef96973eb98bf0)
References: <[email protected]>
From: [email protected] (AHABIZ)
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Return-Path:
Posted-Date: 12 May 1996 02:39:22 -0400
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!cancer.vividnet.com!
hunter.premier.net!news.nl.innet.net!INnl.net!news.be.innet.net!bofh.dot!INbe.net!plug.news.pipex.net!pipex!
tube.news.pipex.net!pipex!hole.news.pipex.net!pipex!oleane!jussieu.fr!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!
vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!grapevine.lcs.mit.edu!atype.com!militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sun, 12 May 96 6:53:04 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Chechan Militia
Lines: 14

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (PGISSource)
writes:

>Just out of curiosity, is this the philosophical orientation from which
>your comments derive? I’m just wondering, since Herr Kleim has some
>wonderful writings on how to apply and structure posts.

You know, Wiz, you’ve got a point there – especially when one considers
the fact that the nazidiots have been known to cooperate with radical Arab
anti-semitic groups in the past…interesting.

Arlin

From [email protected] Sun May 12 11:39:18 PDT 1996
Article: 18181 of misc.activism.militia
Sender: [email protected]
Approved: [email protected] (150c2560235c12fb195cb7b452f50eab)
References: <[email protected]>
From: [email protected] (AHABIZ)
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Return-Path:
Posted-Date: 12 May 1996 02:39:43 -0400
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!cancer.vividnet.com!
hunter.premier.net!news.nl.innet.net!INnl.net!news.be.innet.net!bofh.dot!INbe.net!plug.news.pipex.net!pipex!
tube.news.pipex.net!pipex!hole.news.pipex.net!pipex!oleane!jussieu.fr!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!
vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.kei.com!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!grapevine.lcs.mit.edu!atype.com!
militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sun, 12 May 96 6:53:25 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Chechan Militia
Lines: 14

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (PGISSource)
writes:

>Just out of curiosity, is this the philosophical orientation from which
>your comments derive? I’m just wondering, since Herr Kleim has some
>wonderful writings on how to apply and structure posts.

You know, Wiz, you’ve got a point there – especially when one considers
the fact that the nazidiots have been known to cooperate with radical Arab
anti-semitic groups in the past…interesting.

Arlin

From [email protected] Sun May 12 11:39:20 PDT 1996
Article: 18218 of misc.activism.militia
Sender: [email protected]
Approved: [email protected] (b9dcaf6ea6ab9fce1a902388ba3949e8)
References: <[email protected]>
From: [email protected] (AHABIZ)
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Return-Path:
Posted-Date: 12 May 1996 12:08:28 -0400
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!
news.kei.com!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!grapevine.lcs.mit.edu!atype.com!militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sun, 12 May 96 16:18:16 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Democracy vrs Freedom
Lines: 22

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (JD11B) writes:

> Let’s remember that Plessy v.
>Ferguson was not about discrimination per se rather it was about the
>rights of some citzens not to associate with other citizens and the other
>citizens right to equal treatment under the law.

Uh, Chris, I beg to differ. I think this is a somewhat revisionist
interpretation of P.v F. My read was that it *was* in fact intended to
counter de facto differences in treatment, NOT free association. There is
a difference. Example: Let’s say that while I’m working in the yard
another libertarian comes up and asks for a drink, so I reach into my
cooler and hand him a cold one. Now immediately thereafter a liberal
yuppie wanders up and asks the same question. I don’t particularly like
yuppies, and I’m sure he’ll sense that, but as long as I offer *him* a
cold one as well, there’s no problem, even though he will know he his not
really welcome in my yard. If I tell him he has to drink out of the
garden hose, on the other hand, *that* is seperate but not equal.

Interested to hear your response
Arlin

From [email protected] Sun May 12 11:39:21 PDT 1996
Article: 18219 of misc.activism.militia
Sender: [email protected]
Approved: [email protected] (d4b44a3b478c9cf353dd02d91f836ab7)
References: <[email protected]>
From: [email protected] (AHABIZ)
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Return-Path:
Posted-Date: 12 May 1996 12:12:39 -0400
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!
news.kei.com!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!grapevine.lcs.mit.edu!atype.com!militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sun, 12 May 96 16:18:23 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Who are the Officers of maltia groups
Lines: 8

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (JD11B) writes:

> What’s the fail safe mechanism?

common sense, and a generally democratic structure. In this instance the
miltias have a *much* higher level of fail safe than the conventional
armed forces.

From [email protected] Sun May 12 11:39:22 PDT 1996
Article: 18221 of misc.activism.militia
Sender: [email protected]
Approved: [email protected] (1d739146f37f827bd61231b7a34737cc)
References: <[email protected]>
From: [email protected] (AHABIZ)
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Return-Path:
Posted-Date: 12 May 1996 12:15:37 -0400
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!
bloom-beacon.mit.edu!grapevine.lcs.mit.edu!atype.com!militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sun, 12 May 96 16:33:05 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Amendments CAN be unconstitutional
Lines: 14

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (JD11B) writes:

>Amendment X
>”The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor
>prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States, or to the
>people.”
>
>Looks pretty clear that it doesn’t say that Mike.

Uh, Chris, in order to understand mikey’s unique perspective one must
approach the Constitution stoned…

Arlin

From [email protected] Mon May 13 08:27:54 PDT 1996
Article: 18263 of misc.activism.militia
Sender: [email protected]
Approved: [email protected] (6f23419d58696709bfbc4409bfab60d1)
References: <[email protected]>
From: [email protected] (AHABIZ)
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Return-Path:
Posted-Date: 12 May 1996 16:29:50 -0400
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!news.ece.uc.edu!
babbage.ece.uc.edu!news.kei.com!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!grapevine.lcs.mit.edu!atype.com!militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sun, 12 May 96 20:33:03 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Germans take over N.M. AIR STATION
Lines: 12

In article <[email protected]>, “Denes S. Varady”
writes:

>[Remember: we have NO peace treaty with Germany!!]

Uh, Denes, that’s because Germany was forced to surrender
*unconditionally* at the end of WWII. In order to have a peace treaty,
both sides have to be able to negotiate…Germany simply wasn’t given that
option.

Arlin Adams

From [email protected] Mon May 13 08:27:59 PDT 1996
Article: 18276 of misc.activism.militia
Sender: [email protected]
Approved: [email protected] (73404a2880a969c86ce95c76e2b6b945)
References: <[email protected]>
From: [email protected] (AHABIZ)
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Return-Path:
Posted-Date: 12 May 1996 23:38:15 -0400
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!ncar!
elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!swrinde!hookup!olivea!grapevine.lcs.mit.edu!atype.com!militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Mon, 13 May 96 3:48:03 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Who are the Officers of maltia groups
Lines: 14

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:

>Perhaps some people forget how many
>in the movement believe there are thousands and thousands of UN troops in
>this
>country, with many more waiting to invade from Mexico.
>
>
>

perhaps some people forget how many in the movement *don’t* believe these
things.

From [email protected] Mon May 13 08:28:07 PDT 1996
Article: 18278 of misc.activism.militia
Sender: [email protected]
Approved: [email protected] (716b3b2b7aa6dcd8b6832436f02525eb)
References: <[email protected]>
From: [email protected] (AHABIZ)
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Return-Path:
Posted-Date: 12 May 1996 23:46:13 -0400
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!
ncar!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!swrinde!hookup!olivea!grapevine.lcs.mit.edu!atype.com!militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Mon, 13 May 96 3:48:17 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: AOL POSTS
Lines: 12

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:

>I think the newsgroup should consider whether or not it wants the
>auto-moderator to exclude all posts from AOL for the next month or so.
>Seeing
>six to ten duplicates of every post from AOL is beyond irritating; it is
>ridiculous.

oh come on, mark, WE put up with YOU…I say block aol if you block
Ohio-state.edu, as well.

From [email protected] Mon May 13 11:17:27 PDT 1996
Article: 18330 of misc.activism.militia
Sender: [email protected]
Approved: [email protected] (6f97cf1f079aec5689d5bed81e6ff589)
References: <[email protected]>
From: [email protected] (AHABIZ)
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Return-Path:
Posted-Date: 13 May 1996 11:24:31 -0400
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!
news.kei.com!uhog.mit.edu!grapevine.lcs.mit.edu!atype.com!militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Mon, 13 May 96 15:33:03 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: CAREERS ACT final blow to American Freedom!
Lines: 13

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (John
Dulaney) writes:

> Our Fates?
> Sealed.
> Too late to do anything about it?
> Yes.

Uh, John, when you post to this newsgroup you’re talking to people who are
*already* doing something about it (well, except for mark)…think you may
have targetted the wrong audience with this ad for your web site…try
posting it in alt.inactivism.sheeple….

From [email protected] Mon May 13 11:17:28 PDT 1996
Article: 18331 of misc.activism.militia
Sender: [email protected]
Approved: [email protected] (9a2b5a9bfc8f13343072e4ac72c5fe99)
References: <[email protected]>
From: [email protected] (AHABIZ)
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Return-Path:
Posted-Date: 13 May 1996 11:30:10 -0400
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!
news.kei.com!uhog.mit.edu!grapevine.lcs.mit.edu!atype.com!militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Mon, 13 May 96 15:33:11 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: In Defence of Mark T Pitsavage
Lines: 12

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Mo10Cav) writes:

>Take a poll, Markie. Ask the boys and girls on this newsgroup who they
>trust more– you or me.

Mike,

Nobody believes mark’s tripe…he was just trying to get your goat.

Best
Arlin

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:24:47 PDT 1996
Article: 18346 of misc.activism.militia
Sender: [email protected]
Approved: [email protected] (71b37cfc4e842772ac02690196734c0b)
References: <[email protected]>
From: [email protected] (AHABIZ)
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Return-Path:
Posted-Date: 13 May 1996 11:33:28 -0400
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!gatech!news.cse.psu.edu!
uwm.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!grapevine.lcs.mit.edu!atype.com!
militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Mon, 13 May 96 16:18:04 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: In Defence of Mark T Pitsavage
Lines: 27

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:

>Come to think of it, you laid some pretty heavy accusations on militia
>members
>Brad Glover and Stewart Waterhouse, but refused to give any sources.
Maybe
>the
>information came from some federal bosses?
>
>

This one ain’t gonna fly mark. We all know Mike. As for the information
concerning messers Glover and Waterhouse, there is absolutely no reason to
divulge militia information sources to you.

On the other hand mark, we don’t know YOU, since you’ve been so paranoid
about talking about yourself. YOU might enlighten us by explaining just
who *exactly* is providing funding for your research. Absolutely no one
here believes you’re doing this for free. We’ve seen you post during a
regular work day, as I do, but unlike me, YOU are not a disabled
vet…which means that you may very likely be posting from your
office…whereever that might be…if you’re so big on names and
locations, maybe it’s time you started by providing your own.

Arlin H. Adams

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:24:48 PDT 1996
Article: 18365 of misc.activism.militia
Sender: [email protected]
Approved: [email protected] (dce97a91ecf37fac5b819328fba1d564)
References: <[email protected]>
From: [email protected] (AHABIZ)
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Return-Path:
Posted-Date: 13 May 1996 11:24:05 -0400
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!news.his.com!
news.akorn.net!imci5!pull-feed.internetmci.com!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.kei.com!
uhog.mit.edu!grapevine.lcs.mit.edu!atype.com!militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Mon, 13 May 96 15:48:05 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Strategy and tactics for militia civil war
Lines: 7

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:

>Yes, it is duly noted that you are advising people to murder me.

ah, and now who is sounding paranoid?

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:24:49 PDT 1996
Article: 18424 of misc.activism.militia
Sender: [email protected]
Approved: [email protected] (d19321d76f6379350914a389c87c7d99)
References: <[email protected]>
From: [email protected] (AHABIZ)
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Return-Path:
Posted-Date: 13 May 1996 20:44:09 -0400
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!
newsfeed.internetmci.com!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!grapevine.lcs.mit.edu!atype.com!militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 14 May 96 0:49:35 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: I saw black helicopters once . . .
Lines: 14

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (PGISSource)
writes:

>>BTW: My
>>car is dark blue. What does that symbolize if any aircraft painted
black
>>”means” tyrrany?
>
>a lousy sense of color and low resale value? πŸ™‚
>
>

insurance salesmen? πŸ™‚

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:24:50 PDT 1996
Article: 18446 of misc.activism.militia
Sender: [email protected]
Approved: [email protected] (e13103be969189814dfaef8b9b6eeb93)
References: <[email protected]>
From: [email protected] (AHABIZ)
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Return-Path:
Posted-Date: 14 May 1996 06:33:22 -0400
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!
hookup!olivea!grapevine.lcs.mit.edu!atype.com!militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 14 May 96 10:48:03 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Who are the Officers of maltia groups
Lines: 29

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected]”@KUHUB.CC.UKANS.EDU writes:

>spake Mark T Pitcavage:
>: >
>: >I’ve seen some very good common sense arguments that say otherwise.
>
>: I don’t care if you’ve seen some common sense arguments that say
otherwise
>that
>: are so good they wash your car and clean your laundry. What I said was
a
>: -fact-, an indisputable -fact-, and one that has been universally
>acknowledged
>: in courts, legal writings, historical writings and everywhere else for
>: -centuries-.
>
>Doc, the Flat Earth, the Geocentric Universe, the nonevolution and
>immutability of species, and the moral rightness of human slavery were
also
>thought to be indisputable universally acknowledged facts for centuries.
>What makes your indisputable fact any different.

Why Mike, if he acknowledged that, why, then he’d have to acknowledge that
people control the law, rather than the other way around…and THEN he’d
be in a position where *people* were more important than written words,
and THEN he’d lose all of his absolutes…why next thing you know, he
might form a militia unit on campus, and *then* where would he be? πŸ˜‰

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:24:51 PDT 1996
Article: 18447 of misc.activism.militia
Sender: [email protected]
Approved: [email protected] (9d7d3a9afa01f68ec3494fb157f2a26a)
References: <[email protected]>
From: [email protected] (AHABIZ)
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Return-Path:
Posted-Date: 14 May 1996 06:48:00 -0400
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!
bloom-beacon.mit.edu!grapevine.lcs.mit.edu!atype.com!militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 14 May 96 11:03:03 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: AOL POSTS
Lines: 14

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (PGISSource)
writes:

>I take it from your response you were not offering to pay the hookup,
>monthly, and long-distance fees … oh well. Yet another unfunded mandate
>based on personal convenience for the “me-only party” rather than an
>effective review of all facts.

But Wiz, mark’s response is typical of those we’ve come to expect from the
fedgov (you’ll notice I did *not* use the term ‘liberal’ this time)…he’s
an excellent example of the problem.

Arlin Adams

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:24:52 PDT 1996
Article: 18450 of misc.activism.militia
Sender: [email protected]
Approved: [email protected] (cd1567fd0cb66dd2c83f4de6811ed16e)
References: <[email protected]>
From: [email protected] (AHABIZ)
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Return-Path:
Posted-Date: 14 May 1996 06:59:35 -0400
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!
bloom-beacon.mit.edu!grapevine.lcs.mit.edu!atype.com!militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 14 May 96 11:03:38 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: In Defence of Mark T Pitsavage
Lines: 47

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:

> If I were, you would not see the notice on the Militia Watchdog
>that I am looking for under-writers.

oh, you wouldn’t need camoflage?

> If I were, I could get a lot more
>subscriptions to extremist newsletters, etc., buy more videos, upgrade my

>obsolete computer equipment, etc., etc., etc.

nice example, but useless in this context since no one here knows what you
are currently purchasing, nor what computer equipment you have.

>As to my posting during a regular work day, I suppose most people with an

>internet connection in their office can do that.

no, actually most people can’t – that’s something that businesses
generally forbid, and there’s network monitoring software specifically
designed to prevent it.

>The reason I don’t like to give out where I work is that I don’t want
>nutcases
>bothering the place;

don’t allow them to hold faculty meetings in your office…oh, you mean
nutcases from *outside* the university…hmm, not knowing who all lurks on
this group, and considering the likes of hub*r and miltie the nazi show up
occaisionally, I think I could accept this as a valid concern.

>I already get hate e-mail and crank phone calls from you
>guys.

uh, which guys? crank phone calls are childish at best, if you asked,
there are probably people associated with the militias in your area, who
might be able to put a stop to that, you know…if in fact it’s militia
folks who are involved to begin with. As for ‘hate email’ does that
include responses to some of your more inflamatory posts? I realize that
there’s a chance you may believe you are on the side of goodness and
light, but does that mean that you don’t have to worry about anything you
say here on the newsgroup? I’m not sure I understand you clearly here.

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:24:52 PDT 1996
Article: 18451 of misc.activism.militia
Sender: [email protected]
Approved: [email protected] (b0ce70634dc3207fd46309afdb9bb67d)
References: <[email protected]>
From: [email protected] (AHABIZ)
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Return-Path:
Posted-Date: 14 May 1996 07:08:07 -0400
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!
news.kei.com!uhog.mit.edu!grapevine.lcs.mit.edu!atype.com!militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 14 May 96 11:18:03 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: The Sheeple
Lines: 10

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:

>Maybe the “sheeple” are less sheeplike than you would like to believe.
Maybe
>they simply reject your extremist views because they are not valid.

maybe arguing with mikey is a waste of time…just what exactly set you
off about his use of the term ‘sheeple’, anyway, mark?

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:24:53 PDT 1996
Article: 18457 of misc.activism.militia
Sender: [email protected]
Approved: [email protected] (09d6e241f835da49c92755e951ac2370)
References: <[email protected]>
From: [email protected] (AHABIZ)
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Return-Path:
Posted-Date: 14 May 1996 07:14:07 -0400
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!
bloom-beacon.mit.edu!grapevine.lcs.mit.edu!atype.com!militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 14 May 96 11:19:12 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Who are the Officers of maltia groups
Lines: 22

In article <[email protected]e.com>, [email protected] (Scott Alan
Malcomson) writes:

>Mark T Pitcavage ([email protected]) wrote:
>: About eight months or so ago, I asked people in the newsgroup what
>: they thought about a UN conspiracy to invade the United States, and
>: almost all of the replies said they thought it was true. I doubt
>: opinions here have changed all
>: that much in the ensuing months, but perhaps it is time to ask it
again.
>
>Well, *there’s* a blatant lie…I was here then, and I for one was one of

>those DENOUNCING such poppycock. I saw perhaps three people who thought
>it was actually true, and a large number of people who were willing to
>discuss the notion with its proponents…ah, I see. Pitcavage has lumped
>everyone who was willing to hear the NWO folx out as *being* NWO. Okay.

Scott, mark is just a propagandist, you know – everybody who disagrees
with him doesn’t count, and anybody who does is ‘a majority’….

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:24:54 PDT 1996
Article: 18458 of misc.activism.militia
Sender: [email protected]
Approved: [email protected] (250eb07a982eb24b6db48b97ad4b6ce5)
References: <[email protected]>
From: [email protected] (AHABIZ)
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Return-Path:
Posted-Date: 14 May 1996 07:14:44 -0400
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!
bloom-beacon.mit.edu!grapevine.lcs.mit.edu!atype.com!militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 14 May 96 11:19:20 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Pitcavage on Patriot Movement
Lines: 13

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (DAVID GROSSACK
) writes:

>Mr. Pitcavage errs when he opines that the patriot movement must
> reconsider its direction if it appears to be drawing insufficent
> public support.

Not to worry David, the morning after the revolution mark will *still* be
sitting at his computer attempting to convince people we don’t stand a
chance πŸ™‚

Arlin Adams

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:24:55 PDT 1996
Article: 18515 of misc.activism.militia
Sender: [email protected]
Approved: [email protected] (cc44ae8caa82679e070119412d0c4ca9)
References: <[email protected]>
From: [email protected] (AHABIZ)
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Return-Path:
Posted-Date: 14 May 1996 11:17:59 -0400
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!
bloom-beacon.mit.edu!grapevine.lcs.mit.edu!atype.com!militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 14 May 96 15:33:03 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: What I’d Like To See
Lines: 22

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Scott Alan
Malcomson) writes:

>Mark T Pitcavage ([email protected]) wrote:
>: In article <[email protected]>, PGISSource
>wrote:
>: >I don’t know, Doc. A few congressmen also seem to share in that
problem.
>: >Are they simply conspiracy nuts? How much of a role have the
politicians
>
>: I think the black helicopters got Vince Foster.
>
>Once again, Mr. Pitcavage shows his tendency to derail any topic on which

>he is contested with senseless blather.

either that, or he’s intentionally skewing his data – you see if he merely
keeps track of irrational responses, then *his* irrational responses count
toward the total…interesting possible cheat, no?

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:24:55 PDT 1996
Article: 18516 of misc.activism.militia
Sender: [email protected]
Approved: [email protected] (62be38622e8769dff8149cee5ca4ef88)
References: <[email protected]>
From: [email protected] (AHABIZ)
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Return-Path:
Posted-Date: 14 May 1996 11:20:42 -0400
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!
uwm.edu!news.moneng.mei.com!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!grapevine.lcs.mit.edu!atype.com!militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 14 May 96 15:33:12 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Jewish Militia in NYC
Lines: 12

In article <[email protected]>, Eric Engelmann
writes:

>At the risk of being labeled with Mr. Huber, I’ve not seen any posts
>in which he advocates making anyone a sitting duck.

if you can stand the general filth level, you might check out some of the
stuff he posts in the nazidiot news groups…and some of his allies…yes,
they do advocate killing those who disagree with them….

Arlin Adams

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:24:56 PDT 1996
Article: 18517 of misc.activism.militia
Sender: [email protected]
Approved: [email protected] (c3dc60ed9ff2de8587185fb0a9b22710)
References: <[email protected]>
From: [email protected] (AHABIZ)
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Return-Path:
Posted-Date: 14 May 1996 11:25:54 -0400
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!
bloom-beacon.mit.edu!grapevine.lcs.mit.edu!atype.com!militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 14 May 96 15:33:28 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Why We’re Here WAS Re: German Air-Force in U.S.A
Lines: 12

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (MMedi13720)
writes:

>
>Thanks for asking! What are your thoughts about the whole deal?

uh, Mike, dollars to donuts his thoughts probably revolve around the idea
that he could actually be out chasing down criminals if he hadn’t gotten
stuck behind a desk reading all of these %@#$ newsgroup messages πŸ™‚

Arlin

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:24:57 PDT 1996
Article: 18518 of misc.activism.militia
Sender: [email protected]
Approved: [email protected] (27dc5f23cfd68590b59676276ace508c)
References: <[email protected]>
From: [email protected] (AHABIZ)
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Return-Path:
Posted-Date: 14 May 1996 11:28:27 -0400
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!
bloom-beacon.mit.edu!grapevine.lcs.mit.edu!atype.com!militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 14 May 96 15:33:36 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Germans take over N.M. AIR STATION
Lines: 11

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Beatle) writes:

>
>Kill those fucking Nazi’s. What the hell are they doing on our soil? I
can’t
>believe Americans would allow this or even try to join them. All fucking
>traiters must die…..

y’know, once the end of the semester comes around, they really should
defund those undergraduate accounts…

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:24:58 PDT 1996
Article: 18519 of misc.activism.militia
Sender: [email protected]
Approved: [email protected] (abe577de27a1669ac935ede4aa71fbf3)
References: <[email protected]>
From: [email protected] (AHABIZ)
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Return-Path:
Posted-Date: 14 May 1996 11:31:09 -0400
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!
bloom-beacon.mit.edu!grapevine.lcs.mit.edu!atype.com!militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 14 May 96 15:33:45 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: no more crosses
Lines: 12

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (M Huber)
writes:

>It is only a matter of time before new-speakers litigate the cross right
>off your church spire.

hub*r you moron, who do you think you’r peddling this crap to, anyway? It
never ceases to amaze me how your attempts to warp the world into your own
wierd image fail so miserably.

Arlin H. Adams

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:24:59 PDT 1996
Article: 18520 of misc.activism.militia
Sender: [email protected]
Approved: [email protected] (f1c5c62cc06e2ec206f518f4755be2cb)
References: <[email protected]>
From: [email protected] (AHABIZ)
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Return-Path:
Posted-Date: 14 May 1996 11:32:28 -0400
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!
bloom-beacon.mit.edu!grapevine.lcs.mit.edu!atype.com!militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 14 May 96 15:33:53 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Jews And the New World Order
Lines: 17

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (DAVID GROSSACK
) writes:

> The perception that Jews are part of the New World Order program
> is as erroneous as the notion that fear of the New World Order is
> irrational.

Hi David,

We all know that, thankyou. The only folks who *don’t* understand are
hub*r and miltie the nazi, who occaisionally wander in here from the
nazidiot newsgroups…I think they have a hard time with all of those
computer buttons, you know πŸ˜‰

Best
Arlin Adams

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:25:00 PDT 1996
Article: 18525 of misc.activism.militia
Sender: [email protected]
Approved: [email protected] (4564db6c4b2f363368eddc0bbe187f54)
References: <[email protected]>
From: [email protected] (AHABIZ)
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Return-Path:
Posted-Date: 14 May 1996 06:16:38 -0400
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news.ironhorse.com!
sloth.swcp.com!tesuque.cs.sandia.gov!ferrari.mst6.lanl.gov!nntp-server.caltech.edu!nntp1.jpl.nasa.gov!
news.magicnet.net!nntp.crosslink.net!bofh.dot!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!bofh.dot!van-bc,bofh.dot!uniserve!
news.sol.net!uwm.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!grapevine.lcs.mit.edu!atype.com!militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 14 May 96 10:18:20 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Christian Identity
Lines: 15

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (JHistorian)
writes:

>Louis Farrakhan does not presume to speak for the NAACP. He is not even
a
>member. He DOES, however, presume to speak for the Nation of Islam.

Why Jim, you old scoundrel – Long time no complain!

I believe Robert, and most everyone else here already KNOWS Mr.
Farrakhan doesn’t represent the NAACP…that was the point…sarcasm, you
know?

Arlin

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:25:01 PDT 1996
Article: 18531 of misc.activism.militia
Sender: [email protected]
Approved: [email protected] (d811fe8b622c0bfff70023c031e0e6ab)
References: <[email protected]>
From: [email protected] (AHABIZ)
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Return-Path:
Posted-Date: 14 May 1996 12:49:40 -0400
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!
ncar!csn!nntp-xfer-1.csn.net!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!news.moneng.mei.com!
bloom-beacon.mit.edu!grapevine.lcs.mit.edu!atype.com!militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 14 May 96 17:03:03 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: I just read about Ruby Ridge. American militias have my sympathy
Lines: 14

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:

>Actually, gun control was not a real issue before the 1920s and 1930s
because
>
>rapid-fire weapons were not readily available before then.

uh, mark, would you please define what you mean by “rapid fire weapons”.
Also, please remember the post-Reconstruction racist gun control laws in
the South.

Arlin

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:25:02 PDT 1996
Article: 18535 of misc.activism.militia
Sender: [email protected]
Approved: [email protected] (e3fc0be230c72dcb707d6d399c724786)
References: <[email protected]>
From: [email protected] (AHABIZ)
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Return-Path:
Posted-Date: 14 May 1996 13:21:08 -0400
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!
solaris.cc.vt.edu!hookup!olivea!grapevine.lcs.mit.edu!atype.com!militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 14 May 96 17:33:04 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: “Worst Nightmare”
Lines: 13

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:

>Ah, but providence was good enough to provide a choice for you, since old
>Henry
>Bibee reposted the threat. Now you can take your foot out of your ass
and
>replace it in your mouth.

except no one other than yourself perceives the Declaration as a
threat…how many times do you want to go ’round *this* particular circle,
mark?

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:25:03 PDT 1996
Article: 18536 of misc.activism.militia
Sender: [email protected]
Approved: [email protected] (21a580880b67659f3d651879aa132dcd)
References: <[email protected]>
From: [email protected] (AHABIZ)
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Return-Path:
Posted-Date: 14 May 1996 13:39:40 -0400
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!
news.msfc.nasa.gov!pendragon!tricia!daffy!uwvax!uwm.edu!news.moneng.mei.com!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!
grapevine.lcs.mit.edu!atype.com!militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 14 May 96 17:48:03 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: The Sheeple
Lines: 10

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:

>The fact that Mike Chapman said it was irrelevant. Lots of people in
this
>newsgroup and across the patriot movement use the term “sheeple.”

I’m sorry you find that shoe fits so well, but you know mark, you’re the
only one who can change that about you.

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:25:04 PDT 1996
Article: 18537 of misc.activism.militia
Sender: [email protected]
Approved: [email protected] (e1d2cd790fa3a7547d0138091630200d)
References: <[email protected]>
From: [email protected] (AHABIZ)
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Return-Path:
Posted-Date: 14 May 1996 13:04:24 -0400
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!
ncar!csn!nntp-xfer-1.csn.net!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!news.moneng.mei.com!
bloom-beacon.mit.edu!grapevine.lcs.mit.edu!atype.com!militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 14 May 96 17:18:05 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Pitcavage on Patriot Movement
Lines: 8

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:

>So, when do you propose to start your revolution against the government?

Why, mark, I didn’t say *we* were going to start it. When do you plan to
start openly oppressing political dissidents?

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:25:05 PDT 1996
Article: 18538 of misc.activism.militia
Sender: [email protected]
Approved: [email protected] (3c0a39ce8fa1f7f40745f98a67e4f228)
References: <[email protected]>
From: [email protected] (AHABIZ)
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Return-Path:
Posted-Date: 14 May 1996 13:13:00 -0400
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!
ncar!csn!nntp-xfer-1.csn.net!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!news.moneng.mei.com!
bloom-beacon.mit.edu!grapevine.lcs.mit.edu!atype.com!militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 14 May 96 17:18:14 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Strategy and tactics for militia civil war
Lines: 13

In article <[email protected]>, Robert Marks
writes:

>Consider that these men and their followers brought about genuine
>revolutionary change, without a shot being fired (by them, at any rate.)

Hi Robert,

some of us have a somewhat stronger aversion to being shot *at*, without
defending ourselves, than the examples you gave…

Arlin

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:25:06 PDT 1996
Article: 18555 of misc.activism.militia
Sender: [email protected]
Approved: [email protected] (0a814a478cce08f0ca8305633b079ebe)
References: <[email protected]>
From: [email protected] (AHABIZ)
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Return-Path:
Posted-Date: 14 May 1996 13:31:18 -0400
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!cancer.vividnet.com!
hunter.premier.net!bofh.dot!news.nl.innet.net!INnl.net!news.be.innet.net!bofh.dot!INbe.net!plug.news.pipex.net!
pipex!tube.news.pipex.net!pipex!hole.news.pipex.net!pipex!oleane!jussieu.fr!math.ohio-state.edu!
newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.eecs.nwu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!news.moneng.mei.com!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!
grapevine.lcs.mit.edu!atype.com!militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 14 May 96 17:33:48 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Democracy vrs Freedom
Lines: 17

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (JD11B) writes:

> “If the two races are to
>meet upon terms of social equality , it must be the results of natural
>affinities, a mutual appreciation of each other’s merits and a voluntary
>consent of individuals.” I think this language strongly suggests that
>the justices were considering a freedom not to associate somewhere in
>their mind.

difference in perspectives produces interesting interpretations – I take
the same phrase to indicate that such association *must* be voluntary to
be meaningful πŸ™‚ Who was it that said ‘where you stand depends on where
you sit?

Best
Arlin

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:25:07 PDT 1996
Article: 18557 of misc.activism.militia
Sender: [email protected]
Approved: [email protected] (7b0ea6075f203875043896bce41079bb)
References: <[email protected]>
From: [email protected] (AHABIZ)
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Return-Path:
Posted-Date: 14 May 1996 11:13:32 -0400
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!cancer.vividnet.com!
hunter.premier.net!bofh.dot!news.nl.innet.net!INnl.net!news.be.innet.net!bofh.dot!INbe.net!plug.news.pipex.net!
pipex!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!EU.net!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!
news.moneng.mei.com!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!grapevine.lcs.mit.edu!atype.com!militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 14 May 96 15:18:04 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Who are the Officers of maltia groups
Lines: 24

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (JD11B) writes:

>Are you suggesting that Germans and Italians had no common sense (Refer
to
>the SA and Mussolini’s blackshirts)?

In the same sense that many folks today do not show common sense in
evaluating what they are told by the media, politicians and the like, not
that the Germans and Italians *had* no common sense, but rather that they
failed to exercise it effectively.

> Actually I’d feel a little more
>comfortable with the militia movement if it’s officers were truly
>democratically elected by entire community instead of those few who
volunteer

hmm, certainly in a perfect world this would be the best possible
situation. As it is, though, we have the same situation we get with every
other election – many people ‘vote’ simply by failing to bother to do
anything at all. Old saying: The world is run by those who show up.

Best
Arlin

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:25:08 PDT 1996
Article: 18655 of misc.activism.militia
Sender: [email protected]
Approved: [email protected] (8842e416cfa4ca86e2f50db5ba52b418)
References: <[email protected]>
From: [email protected] (AHABIZ)
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Return-Path:
Posted-Date: 14 May 1996 20:08:37 -0400
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!cancer.vividnet.com!
hunter.premier.net!bofh.dot!news.nl.innet.net!INnl.net!news.be.innet.net!bofh.dot!INbe.net!plug.news.pipex.net!
pipex!tube.news.pipex.net!pipex!hole.news.pipex.net!pipex!oleane!jussieu.fr!math.ohio-state.edu!
howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!grapevine.lcs.mit.edu!atype.com!
militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Wed, 15 May 96 0:18:16 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: I just read about Ruby Ridge. American militias have my sympathy
Lines: 34

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:

>As previous posters in the thread had already noted, that was a temporary
and
>localized phenomenon, not really equatable to the controversy over gun
control
>today.

hmm, the only previous posters who attempted to make that point were you
and Jim Vargas. As multiple previous posters, including myself pointed
out – not only were these historical racially oppressive gun control laws
the direct linear antecedents of moderng gun control, they were also
intended to accomplish the same thing – keep the power out of the hands of
large segments of society. They are directly related to the controversy
over gun control today.

>As for “defining” rapid fire weapons, I don’t see any reason to do so;
what I
>
>said was perfectly clear.

uh, from your post, in which you specifically refered to ‘tommy guns’
(i.e. Thompson Submachineguns) I took your usage to mean automatic
weapons. Unfortunately that’s not what the term rapid fire means in
firearms parlance. Rapid Fire is a particular rate of firing, usually a
given number of rounds in a given number of seconds, used in firearms
competition. This is as opposed to Slow Fire, which is also a competition
term, normally measured as a given number of rounds in a given number of
minutes. I have seen skilled competitors fire Rapid Fire events using
bolt action rifles, while I have also seen selective fire rifles used in
Slow Fire events. Your meaning, therefore, was inherently unclear.

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:25:10 PDT 1996
Article: 18690 of misc.activism.militia
Sender: [email protected]
Approved: [email protected] (785e5ae4e5a79106442331d58c04e20b)
References: <[email protected]>
From: [email protected] (AHABIZ)
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Return-Path:
Posted-Date: 15 May 1996 10:39:01 -0400
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!en.com!uunet!
in2.uu.net!brighton.openmarket.com!decwrl!olivea!grapevine.lcs.mit.edu!atype.com!militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Wed, 15 May 96 14:48:13 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: AOL POSTS
Lines: 8

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected]”@KUHUB.CC.UKANS.EDU writes:

> plus Pitcavage and Chapman to make straw men out of each
>other.

make?? they *are*, no make about it.

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:25:11 PDT 1996
Article: 18691 of misc.activism.militia
Sender: [email protected]
Approved: [email protected] (297338094841edf6d8d189798e5c3e0c)
References: <[email protected]>
From: [email protected] (AHABIZ)
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Return-Path:
Posted-Date: 15 May 1996 10:39:36 -0400
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!en.com!uunet!
in2.uu.net!brighton.openmarket.com!decwrl!olivea!grapevine.lcs.mit.edu!atype.com!militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Wed, 15 May 96 14:48:20 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Jewish Militia in NYC
Lines: 18

In article <[email protected]>, Eric Engelmann
writes:

>I’ve seen a number of posts by him in alt.conspiracy. Can’t recall
>him ever threatening anyone.

try alt.politics.whitepower, and you’ll see some rather interesting
theories on inbreeding as a positive social function, or whatever you’ll
also see direct threats by folks directly related to hub*r’s affiliated
groups (national appliance, and so on)…but wear boots and be prepared to
throw them away after you leave.

You might also try talking to Ken McVay at the Nizkor project, they have a
fair amount of background posts accumulated from these idiots…

Best
Arlin

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:25:13 PDT 1996
Article: 18702 of misc.activism.militia
Sender: [email protected]
Approved: [email protected] (1af14b26b79cdc9d7827e3f1ada878ec)
References: <[email protected]>
From: [email protected] (AHABIZ)
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Return-Path:
Posted-Date: 15 May 1996 12:48:55 -0400
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!
bloom-beacon.mit.edu!grapevine.lcs.mit.edu!atype.com!militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Wed, 15 May 96 17:03:04 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: HOW MANY KINDS OF MILITIA ARE THERE???
Lines: 8

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (MMedi13720)
writes:

>That’s not a really smart approach, Chapman.

you are herewith nominated for the first monthly FIRM GRASP OF THE OBVIOUS
award πŸ™‚

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:25:14 PDT 1996
Article: 18705 of misc.activism.militia
Sender: [email protected]
Approved: [email protected] (caaed22d368602d49274f321394e49e7)
From: [email protected] (AHABIZ)
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Return-Path:
Posted-Date: 15 May 1996 12:49:02 -0400
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!news.sdsmt.edu!
tau.uac.net!uhog.mit.edu!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!grapevine.lcs.mit.edu!atype.com!militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Wed, 15 May 96 17:03:17 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: FACTS mark doesn’t want you to know Part I (the text)
Lines: 568

published in the Winter 1995 issue of Kansas Journal of Law and
Public Policy.

The Racist Roots of Gun Control

Copyright 1993 Clayton E. Cramer All Rights Reserved

Electronic redistribution is permitted as long as no alterations
are made to the text and this notice appears at the beginning.
Print reproduction or for profit use is not authorized without
permission from the author.

The historical record provides compelling evidence that
racism underlies gun control laws — and not in any subtle
way. Throughout much of American history, gun control was
openly stated as a method for keeping blacks and Hispanics
“in their place,” and to quiet the racial fears of whites.
This paper is intended to provide a brief summary of this
unholy alliance of gun control and racism, and to suggest
that gun control laws should be regarded as “suspect ideas,”
analogous to the “suspect classifications” theory of
discrimination already part of the American legal system.

Racist arms laws predate the establishment of the United
States. Starting in 1751, the French Black Code required
Louisiana colonists to stop any blacks, and if necessary,
beat “any black carrying any potential weapon, such as a
cane.” If a black refused to stop on demand, and was on
horseback, the colonist was authorized to “shoot to kill.”[1]
Slave possession of firearms was a necessity at times in a
frontier society, yet laws continued to be passed in an
attempt to prohibit slaves or free blacks from possessing
firearms, except under very restrictively controlled
conditions.[2] Similarly, in the sixteenth century the colony
of New Spain, terrified of black slave revolts, prohibited
all blacks, free and slave, from carrying arms.[3]

In the Haitian Revolution of the 1790s, the slave
population successfully threw off their French masters, but
the Revolution degenerated into a race war, aggravating
existing fears in the French Louisiana colony, and among
whites in the slave states of the United States. When the
first U. S. official arrived in New Orleans in 1803 to take
charge of this new American possession, the planters sought
to have the existing free black militia disarmed, and
otherwise exclude “free blacks from positions in which they
were required to bear arms,” including such non-military
functions as slave-catching crews. The New Orleans city
government also stopped whites from teaching fencing to free
blacks, and then, when free blacks sought to teach fencing,
similarly prohibited their efforts as well.[4]

It is not surprising that the first North American
English colonies, then the states of the new republic,
remained in dread fear of armed blacks, for slave revolts
against slave owners often degenerated into less selective
forms of racial warfare. The perception that free blacks
were sympathetic to the plight of their enslaved brothers,
and the dangerous example that “a Negro could be free” also
caused the slave states to pass laws designed to disarm all
blacks, both slave and free. Unlike the gun control laws
passed after the Civil War, these antebellum statutes were
for blacks alone. In Maryland, these prohibitions went so
far as to prohibit free blacks from owning dogs without a
license, and authorizing any white to kill an unlicensed dog
owned by a free black, for fear that blacks would use dogs
as weapons. Mississippi went further, and prohibited any
ownership of a dog by a black person.[5]

Understandably, restrictions on slave possession of arms
go back a very long way. While arms restrictions on free
blacks predate it, these restrictions increased dramatically
after Nat Turner’s Rebellion in 1831, a revolt that caused
the South to become increasingly irrational in its fears.[6]
Virginia’s response to Turner’s Rebellion prohibited free
blacks “to keep or carry any firelock of any kind, any
military weapon, or any powder or lead…” The existing laws
under which free blacks were occasionally licensed to
possess or carry arms was also repealed, making arms
possession completely illegal for free blacks.[7] But even
before this action by the Virginia Legislature, in the
aftermath of Turner’s Rebellion, the discovery that a free
black family possessed lead shot for use as scale weights,
without powder or weapon in which to fire it, was considered
sufficient reason for a frenzied mob to discuss summary
execution of the owner.[8] The analogy to the current
hysteria where mere possession of ammunition in some states
without a firearms license may lead to jail time, should be
obvious.

One example of the increasing fear of armed blacks is the
1834 change to the Tennessee Constitution, where Article XI,
26 of the 1796 Tennessee Constitution was revised from:
“That the freemen of this State have a right to keep and to
bear arms for their common defence,”[9] to: “That the free
white men of this State have a right to keep and to bear
arms for their common defence.”[10] [emphasis added] It is not
clear what motivated this change, other than Turner’s bloody
insurrection. The year before, the Tennessee Supreme Court
had recognized the right to bear arms as an individual
guarantee, but there is nothing in that decision that
touches on the subject of race.[11]

Other decisions during the antebellum period were
unambiguous about the importance of race. In State v.
Huntly (1843), the North Carolina Supreme Court had
recognized that there was a right to carry arms guaranteed
under the North Carolina Constitution, as long as such arms
were carried in a manner not likely to frighten people.[12]
The following year, the North Carolina Supreme Court made
one of those decisions whose full significance would not
appear until after the Civil War and passage of the
Fourteenth Amendment. An 1840 statute provided:

That if any free negro, mulatto, or free person of color,
shall wear or carry about his or her person, or keep in
his or her house, any shot gun, musket, rifle, pistol,
sword, dagger or bowie-knife, unless he or she shall have
obtained a licence therefor from the Court of Pleas and
Quarter Sessions of his or her county, within one year
preceding the wearing, keeping or carrying therefor, he
or she shall be guilty of a misdemeanor, and may be
indicted therefor.[13]

Elijah Newsom, “a free person of color,” was indicted in
Cumberland County in June of 1843 for carrying a shotgun
without a license — at the very time the North Carolina
Supreme Court was deciding Huntly. Newsom was convicted by
a jury; but the trial judge directed a not guilty verdict,
and the state appealed to the North Carolina Supreme Court.
Newsom’s attorney argued that the statute requiring free
blacks to obtain a license to “keep and bear arms” was in
violation of both the Second Amendment to the U. S.
Constitution, and the North Carolina Constitution’s similar
guarantee of a right to keep and bear arms.[14] The North
Carolina Supreme Court refused to accept that the Second
Amendment was a limitation on state laws, but had to deal
with the problem of the state constitutional guarantees,
which had been used in the Huntly decision, the year before.

The 17th article of the 1776 North Carolina Constitution
declared:

That the people have a right to bear arms, for the
defence of the State; and, as standing armies, in time
of peace, are dangerous to liberty, they ought not to
be kept up; and that the military should be kept under
strict subordination to, and governed by, the civil
power.[15]

The Court asserted that: “We cannot see that the act of
1840 is in conflict with it… The defendant is not
indicted for carrying arms in defence of the State, nor does
the act of 1840 prohibit him from so doing.”[16] But in
Huntly, the Court had acknowledged that the restrictive
language “for the defence of the State” did not preclude an
individual right.[17] The Court then attempted to justify the
necessity of this law:

Its only object is to preserve the peace and safety of
the community from being disturbed by an indiscriminate
use, on ordinary occasions, by free men of color, of
fire arms or other arms of an offensive character.
Self preservation is the first law of nations, as it is
of individuals.[18]

The North Carolina Supreme Court also sought to repudiate
the idea that free blacks were protected by the North
Carolina Constitution’s Bill of Rights by pointing out that
the Constitution excluded free blacks from voting, and
therefore free blacks were not citizens. Unlike a number of
other state constitutions with right to keep and bear arms
provisions that limited this right only to citizens,[19]
Article 17 guaranteed this right to the people — and try as
hard as they might, it was difficult to argue that a “free
person of color,” in the words of the Court, was not one of
“the people.”

It is one of the great ironies that, in much the same way
that the North Carolina Supreme Court recognized a right to
bear arms in 1843 — then a year later declared that free
blacks were not included — the Georgia Supreme Court did
likewise before the 1840s were out. The Georgia Supreme
Court found in Nunn v. State (1846) that a statute
prohibiting the sale of concealable handguns, sword-canes,
and daggers violated the Second Amendment:

The right of the whole people, old and young, men,
women and boys, and not militia only, to keep and bear
arms of every description, and not such merely as are
used by the militia, shall not be infringed, curtailed,
or broken in upon, in the smallest degree; and all of
this for the important end to be attained: the rearing
up and qualifying a well-regulated militia, so vitally
necessary to the security of a free State. Our opinion
is, that any law, State or Federal, is repugnant to the
Constitution, and void, which contravenes this right,
originally belonging to our forefathers, trampled under
foot by Charles I. and his two wicked sons and
successors, reestablished by the revolution of 1688,
conveyed to this land of liberty by the colonists, and
finally incorporated conspicuously in our own Magna
Charta! And Lexington, Concord, Camden, River Raisin,
Sandusky, and the laurel-crowned field of New Orleans,
plead eloquently for this interpretation![20]

Finally, after this paean to liberty — in a state where
much of the population remained enslaved, forbidden by law
to possess arms of any sort — the Court defined the valid
limits of laws restricting the bearing of arms:

We are of the opinion, then, that so far as the act of
1837 seeks to suppress the practice of carrying certain
weapons secretly, that it is valid, inasmuch as it does
not deprive the citizen of his natural right of self-
defence, or of his constitutional right to keep and
bear arms. But that so much of it, as contains a
prohibition against bearing arms openly, is in conflict
with the Constitution, and void…[21]

“Citizen”? Within a single page, the Court had gone from
“right of the whole people, old and young, men, women and
boys” to the much more narrowly restrictive right of a
“citizen.” The motivation for this sudden narrowing of the
right appeared two years later.

The decision Cooper and Worsham v. Savannah (1848) was
not, principally, a right to keep and bear arms case. In
1839, the city of Savannah, Georgia, in an admitted effort
“to prevent the increase of free persons of color in our
city,” had established a $100 per year tax on free blacks
moving into Savannah from other parts of Georgia. Samuel
Cooper and Hamilton Worsham, two “free persons of color,”
were convicted of failing to pay the tax, and were jailed.[22]
On appeal, counsel for Cooper and Worsham argued that the
ordinance establishing the tax was deficient in a number of
technical areas; the assertion of most interest to us is,
“In Georgia, free persons of color have constitutional
rights…” Cooper and Worsham’s counsel argued that these
rights included writ of habeas corpus, right to own real
estate, to be “subject to taxation,” “[t]hey may sue and be
sued,” and cited a number of precedents under Georgia law in
defense of their position.[23]

Justice Warner delivered the Court’s opinion, most of
which is irrelevant to the right to keep and bear arms, but
one portion shows the fundamental relationship between
citizenship, arms, and elections, and why gun control laws
were an essential part of defining blacks as “non-citizens”:
“Free persons of color have never been recognized here as
citizens; they are not entitled to bear arms, vote for
members of the legislature, or to hold any civil office.”[24]
The Georgia Supreme Court did agree that the ordinance
jailing Cooper and Worsham for non-payment was illegal, and
ordered their release, but the comments of the Court made it
clear that their brave words in Nunn v. State (1846) about
“the right of the people,” really only meant white people.

While settled parts of the South were in great fear of
armed blacks, on the frontier, the concerns about Indian
attack often forced relaxation of these rules. The 1798
Kentucky Comprehensive Act allowed slaves and free blacks on
frontier plantations “to keep and use guns, powder, shot,
and weapons, offensive and defensive.” Unlike whites,
however, a license was required for free blacks or slaves to
carry weapons.[25]

The need for blacks to carry arms for self-defense
included not only the problem of Indian attack, and the
normal criminal attacks that anyone might worry about, but
the additional hazard that free blacks were in danger of
being kidnapped and sold into slavery.[26] A number of states,
including Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Michigan, and Wisconsin,
passed laws specifically to prohibit kidnapping of free
blacks, out of concern that the federal Fugitive Slave Laws
would be used as cover for re-enslavement.[27]

The end of slavery in 1865 did not eliminate the problems
of racist gun control laws; the various Black Codes adopted
after the Civil War required blacks to obtain a license
before carrying or possessing firearms or Bowie knives;
these are sufficiently well-known that any reasonably
complete history of the Reconstruction period mentions them.
These restrictive gun laws played a part in the efforts of
the Republicans to get the Fourteenth Amendment ratified,
because it was difficult for night riders to generate the
correct level of terror in a victim who was returning fire.[28]
It does appear, however, that the requirement to treat
blacks and whites equally before the law led to the adoption
of restrictive firearms laws in the South that were equal in
the letter of the law, but unequally enforced. It is clear
that the vagrancy statutes adopted at roughly the same time,
in 1866, were intended to be used against blacks, even
though the language was race-neutral.[29]

The former states of the Confederacy, many of which had
recognized the right to carry arms openly before the Civil
War, developed a very sudden willingness to qualify that
right. One especially absurd example, and one that includes
strong evidence of the racist intentions behind gun control
laws, is Texas.

In Cockrum v. State (1859), the Texas Supreme Court had
recognized that there was a right to carry defensive arms,
and that this right was protected under both the Second
Amendment, and section 13 of the Texas Bill of Rights. The
outer limit of the state’s authority (in this case,
attempting to discourage the carrying of Bowie knives), was
that it could provide an enhanced penalty for manslaughters
committed with Bowie knives.[30] Yet, by 1872, the Texas
Supreme Court denied that there was any right to carry any
weapon for self-defense under either the state or federal
constitutions — and made no attempt to explain or justify
why the Cockrum decision was no longer valid.[31]

What caused the dramatic change? The following excerpt
>from that same decision — so offensive that no one would
dare make such an argument today — sheds some light on the
racism that apparently caused the sudden perspective change:

The law under consideration has been attacked upon the
ground that it was contrary to public policy, and
deprived the people of the necessary means of self-
defense; that it was an innovation upon the customs and
habits of the people, to which they would not peaceably
submit… We will not say to what extent the early
customs and habits of the people of this state should
be respected and accommodated, where they may come in
conflict with the ideas of intelligent and well-meaning
legislators. A portion of our system of laws, as well
as our public morality, is derived from a people the
most peculiar perhaps of any other in the history and
derivation of its own system. Spain, at different
periods of the world, was dominated over by the
Carthagenians, the Romans, the Vandals, the Snovi, the
Allani, the Visigoths, and Arabs; and to this day there
are found in the Spanish codes traces of the laws and
customs of each of these nations blended together in a
system by no means to be compared with the sound
philosophy and pure morality of the common law.[32]
[emphasis added]

This particular decision is more open than most as to its
motivations, but throughout the South during this period,
the existing precedents that recognized a right to open
carry under state constitutional provisions were being
narrowed, or simply ignored. Nor was the reasoning that led
to these changes lost on judges in the North. In 1920, the
Ohio Supreme Court upheld the conviction of a Mexican for
concealed carry of a handgun–while asleep in his own bed.
Justice Wanamaker’s scathing dissent criticized the
precedents cited by the majority in defense of this
absurdity:

I desire to give some special attention to some of the
authorities cited, supreme court decisions from
Alabama, Georgia, Arkansas, Kentucky, and one or two
inferior court decisions from New York, which are given
in support of the doctrines upheld by this court. The
southern states have very largely furnished the
precedents. It is only necessary to observe that the
race issue there has extremely intensified a decisive
purpose to entirely disarm the negro, and this policy
is evident upon reading the opinions.[33]

While not relevant to the issue of racism, Justice
Wanamaker’s closing paragraphs capture well the biting wit
and intelligence of this jurist, who was unfortunately,
outnumbered on the bench:

I hold that the laws of the state of Ohio should be so
applied and so interpreted as to favor the law-abiding
rather than the law-violating people. If this decision
shall stand as the law of Ohio, a very large percentage
of the good people of Ohio to-day are criminals,
because they are daily committing criminal acts by
having these weapons in their own homes for their own
defense. The only safe course for them to pursue,
instead of having the weapon concealed on or about
their person, or under their pillow at night, is to
hang the revolver on the wall and put below it a large
placard with these words inscribed:

“The Ohio supreme court having decided that it is a
crime to carry a concealed weapon on one’s person in
one’s home, even in one’s bed or bunk, this weapon is
hung upon the wall that you may see it, and before you
commit any burglary or assault, please, Mr. Burglar,
hand me my gun.”[34]

There are other examples of remarkable honesty from the
state supreme courts on this subject, of which the finest is
probably Florida Supreme Court Justice Buford’s concurring
opinion in Watson v. Stone (1941), in which a conviction for
carrying a handgun without a permit was overturned, because
the handgun was in the glove compartment of a car:

I know something of the history of this legislation.
The original Act of 1893 was passed when there was a
great influx of negro laborers in this State drawn here
for the purpose of working in turpentine and lumber
camps. The same condition existed when the Act was
amended in 1901 and the Act was passed for the purpose
of disarming the negro laborers and to thereby reduce
the unlawful homicides that were prevalent in
turpentine and saw-mill camps and to give the white
citizens in sparsely settled areas a better feeling of
security. The statute was never intended to be applied
to the white population and in practice has never been
so applied.[35]

Today is not 1893, and when proponents of restrictive gun
control insist that their motivations are color-blind, there
is a possibility that they are telling the truth.
Nonetheless, there are some rather interesting questions
that should be asked today. The most obvious question is,
“Why should a police chief or sheriff have any discretion in
issuing a concealed handgun permit?” Here in California,
even the state legislature’s research arm–hardly a nest of
pro-gunners–has admitted that the vast majority of permits
to carry concealed handguns in California are issued to
white males.[36] Even if overt racism is not an issue, an
official may simply have more empathy with an applicant of a
similar cultural background, and consequently be more able
to relate to the applicant’s concerns. As my wife pointedly
reminded a police official when we applied for concealed
weapon permits, “If more police chiefs were women, a lot
more women would get permits, and be able to defend
themselves from rapists.”

Gun control advocates today are not so foolish as to
openly promote racist laws, and so the question might be
asked what relevance the racist past of gun control laws
has. One concern is that the motivations for disarming
blacks in the past are really not so different from the
motivations for disarming law-abiding citizens today. In the
last century, the official rhetoric in support of such laws
was that “they” were too violent, too untrustworthy, to be
allowed weapons. Today, the same elitist rhetoric regards
law-abiding Americans in the same way, as child-like
creatures in need of guidance from the government. In the
last century, while never openly admitted, one of the goals
of disarming blacks was to make them more willing to accept
various forms of economic oppression, including the
sharecropping system, in which free blacks were reduced to
an economic state not dramatically superior to the
conditions of slavery.

In the seventeenth century, the aristocratic power
structure of colonial Virginia found itself confronting a
similar challenge from lower class whites. These poor
whites resented how the men who controlled the government
used that power to concentrate wealth into a small number of
hands. These wealthy feeders at the government trough would
have disarmed poor whites if they could, but the threat of
both Indian and pirate attack made this impractical; for all
white men “were armed and had to be armed…” Instead,
blacks, who had occupied a poorly defined status between
indentured servant and slave, were reduced to hereditary
chattel slavery, so that poor whites could be economically
advantaged, without the upper class having to give up its
privileges.[37]

Today, the forces that push for gun control seem to be
heavily (though not exclusively) allied with political
factions that are committed to dramatic increases in
taxation on the middle class. While it would be hyperbole
to compare higher taxes on the middle class to the suffering
and deprivation of sharecropping or slavery, the analogy of
disarming those whom you wish to economically disadvantage,
has a certain worrisome validity to it.

Another point to consider is that in the American legal
system, certain classifications of governmental
discrimination are considered constitutionally suspect, and
these “suspect classifications” (usually considered to be
race and religion) come to a court hearing under a strong
presumption of invalidity. The reason for these “suspect
classifications” is because of the long history of
governmental discrimination based on these classifications,
and because these classifications often impinge on
fundamental rights.[38]

In much the same way, gun control has historically been a
tool of racism, and associated with racist attitudes about
black violence. Similarly, many gun control laws impinge on
that most fundamental of rights: self-defense. Racism is so
intimately tied to the history of gun control in America
that we should regard gun control aimed at law-abiding
people as a “suspect idea,” and require that the courts use
the same demanding standards when reviewing the
constitutionality of a gun control law, that they would use
with respect to a law that discriminated based on race.

[ ends ]

Clayton E. Cramer is a software engineer with a
telecommunications manufacturer in Northern California. His
first book, By The Dim And Flaring Lamps: The Civil War
Diary of Samuel McIlvaine, was published in 1990. For The
Defense of Themselves And The State: The Original Intent &
Judicial Interpretation of the Right To Keep And Bear Arms
will be published by Greenwood/Praeger Press in 1994.

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:25:17 PDT 1996
Article: 18723 of misc.activism.militia
Sender: [email protected]
Approved: [email protected] (b7192dbacdb7eb6c1752831cb61e1f87)
References: <[email protected]>
From: [email protected] (AHABIZ)
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Return-Path:
Posted-Date: 15 May 1996 15:50:48 -0400
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!
bloom-beacon.mit.edu!grapevine.lcs.mit.edu!atype.com!militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Wed, 15 May 96 20:03:17 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Chechan Militia
Lines: 15

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (JHistorian)
writes:

>Yes, of course — such groups as the Christian White Patriots (North
>Carolina) don’t adhere to any type of exclusivity based on religion
>(“Christian”) or race (“White”), do they?
>
>They just picked those words because they … er, ah … sounded nice,
>ddn’t they?

There you go again Jim. Attempting to smear the entire movement with the
actions of a minute fringe group. Of course you would find that
impossible with a major organization like the Ohio Unorganized, but then
that’s why you go at it this way, isn’t it?

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:25:18 PDT 1996
Article: 18724 of misc.activism.militia
Sender: [email protected]
Approved: [email protected] (013cf40e457222a7f1687c8110154512)
References: <[email protected]>
From: [email protected] (AHABIZ)
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Return-Path:
Posted-Date: 15 May 1996 15:54:46 -0400
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!
bloom-beacon.mit.edu!grapevine.lcs.mit.edu!atype.com!militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Wed, 15 May 96 20:03:25 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Christian Identity
Lines: 23

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (JHistorian)
writes:

>hus spake [email protected] (Scott Alan Malcomson):
>
>* Gee, yet more proof that anti-Semitism ISN’T a Patriot
>* movement platform…
>
>”Fact is, the patriot movement HAS a lunatic fringe that goes by
>anti-Semitism, …..”
> –Scott Alan Malcomson (same day)
>

C’mon Jim, is it that you can only think in black and white? Last I
looked you are an academic. A couple of academics published a racist book
called ‘THE BELL CURVE’ a year or so ago, and another, British racist
academic just had a racist book called THE G FACTOR pulled by the
publisher following protest. Let’s see, their racists, and their
academics, you’re an academic, therefore you must be a racist. Oh NOW I
see how this works! Hey, maybe you and louie beam of the national
appliance could get together and chat – he just started posting here for
no apparent reason too.

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:25:19 PDT 1996
Article: 18727 of misc.activism.militia
Sender: [email protected]
Approved: [email protected] (aba88501a4edc4132c572e0843d84dcb)
References: <[email protected]>
From: [email protected] (AHABIZ)
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Return-Path:
Posted-Date: 15 May 1996 12:49:25 -0400
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!cancer.vividnet.com!
tau.uac.net!uhog.mit.edu!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!grapevine.lcs.mit.edu!atype.com!militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Wed, 15 May 96 17:03:55 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: I just read about Ruby Ridge. American militias have my sympathy
Lines: 32

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:

>To suggest that they were “direct linear antecedents of modern gun
control”
>you
>would have to prove that a) the laws appeared for the same reason (but
they
>did
>not); b) the laws were phrased the same way (but they were not); c) the
later
>
>ones stemmed from the earlier ones (they did not); and d) people referred
to
>the earlier ones when making the later ones (they did not).

ah, mark, it’s not often I get to nail you with two gotchas in one
message…to correct all of the above, see Cramer’s THE RACIST ROOTS OF
GUN CONTROL (authorized for electronic redistribution) which I have
reposted in two parts as FACTS MARK DOESN’T WANT YOU TO KNOW. This is an
html file.

>You are using designations which exist today, but did not exist in the
1920s.

This is simply not true, mark. I suggest you talk to someone who knows
the history of high powered rifle competition shooting, or for that
matter, you might talk to someone with a background in military history,
which is where the terms rapid fire and slow fire were borrowed from.

nice try, no sale.

From [email protected] Sun May 12 11:39:09 PDT 1996
Article: 18091 of misc.activism.militia
Sender: [email protected]
Approved: [email protected] (82082f6cd599dc7484dc79413ffc4ffb)
References: <[email protected]>
From: [email protected] (AHABIZ)
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Return-Path:
Posted-Date: 11 May 1996 04:35:07 -0400
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news.ironhorse.com!
sloth.swcp.com!tesuque.cs.sandia.gov!lynx.unm.edu!newshub.tc.umn.edu!spool.mu.edu!olivea!grapevine.lcs.mit.edu!
atype.com!militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sat, 11 May 96 8:48:45 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: News! Near Total Gun Ban in Australia
Lines: 7