Adams 0596-1, Adams Arlin H

Raric writes
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] :

> First of all, The reason the press has a difficult time
>distinguishing between Freemen, Nazis, militias, skinheads, Christian
>Idenity, patriots, conservative Christians, etc, is because ALL of them
>hold to a number of beliefs that are sometimes similar, sometimes exactly
>alike.

Wrong, Raric, dead wrong. The only reason you might believe this is
because either you believe the gross slurs committed upon us by the media,
or you wish to delude yourself into thinking that we are all alike because
it makes it easier for you to deal with us. In either case you have once
again proven that you know next to nothing about the movement.

> The list of common shared beliefs among these groups are too long
>to list. The whole idea of a one-world government conspiracy ala pat
>robertson , for instance, can be traced to the anti-semitic forgery “The
>Protocols of the Learned Eders of Zion.

hmm, this must be the result of a public school education. First of all,
since you’re obviously new here, NONE of the regulars on this group
support the ideas espoused in the protocols…if you’d been lurking a week
or so ago, you would have seen the revulsion expressed when the white
supremacists spammed the group with an ad for that particular piece of
nonsense. Secondly, your prejudice against Christians is duly noted.
While I, for one cannot comment on what Pat Robertson might have said,
since I don’t pay attention to him, the fear of oligarich fascism is both
real and based on factual evidence. Just because you are unaware of such
doe not negate it’s existance.

> “Hey everyone I’m a
>racist tryoing to overthrow teh government and kill non-whites. I just
>wanted to let you know so you would have an accurate count of how many of
>us arae here.” Use your brain.

Now this sounds more than a bit paranoid. As I’ve mentioned previously,
we filter racists and antisemites out just as soon as we discover
them…usually when they’re trying to join. Since we support the
Constitution, that’s the only right (and for that matter the only moral)
thing to do. Son, before you start telling other people to use their
brain, you need to begin by learning to think for yourself.

>Try reading some patriot/militia literature. You won’t get
>through very many books, or pamphlest or flyers without seeing something
>about sovereignty, not paying taxes or needing car registrations. C’mon,
>let’s be honest. THAT’s the basis of many patriot beliefs.

LOL! Okay, that it explains it! look kid, I’m sure you made some klan
type *very* happy by buying all of whatever he was selling, but what
you’ve been reading is no more militia literature than the phone book.
Hmm, come to think of it, Under 10USC311(b) the *phone book* is more
militia literature than that tripe you’ve been reading. Patriot beliefs,
by the way are based on the writings of the Founding Fathers, the
Declaration of Independence, the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. I’d
love to see you explain how THOSE are offensive to you…please knock
yourself out.

Next time, try actually talking to the militia, before you go wandering
off into fantasy land, eh?

Arlin H. Adams

From [email protected] Mon May 6 00:19:01 PDT 1996
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Date: Mon, 6 May 96 1:18:03 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: More patriots picked off one-by-one in GA, pussies
Lines: 21

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (David L Evens)
writes:

>Aparently, it has some text covering explosives. After all, the
>propellants used in firearms ammunition are explosives.
>
>

Hi David,

technical trivia here:

the propellant (i.e. modern smokeless gunpowder) is just that – a
propellant. It burns very rapidly, producing a lot of gas which can be
used to thrust the bullet out the front of the barrel. It does NOT
explode. Black powder, on the other hand, IS an explosive .

…don’t you just hate it when people pick nits like this? πŸ™‚

Arlin

From [email protected] Mon May 6 00:19:02 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sun, 5 May 96 23:33:06 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: If there is such a thing as equal protection of the laws
Lines: 18

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
writes:

>
>If the DAMNED ** PRIVATE CORPORATION OWNED FEDERAL RESERVE IS EXEMPT,
THEN
>SO IS EVERYBODY ELSE. ***

not unless ‘everybody else’ is *specifically* mentioned in the law as
being exempt.

Would somebody PLEASE give this guy his medication, cheez.

Arlin

From [email protected] Mon May 6 00:19:03 PDT 1996
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Date: Mon, 6 May 96 2:03:37 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Christian Identity
Lines: 21

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Scott Alan
Malcomson) writes:
>[stuff about Pastor Peters and the Identity movement scragged for space]
>: Anti-Defamation League. [Special Report] Paranoia as Patriotism:
>: Far-Right Influences on the Militia Movement. 1995.
>
>I note that NOTHING of what was printed here had anything to do with the
>Militia movement…yet it’s held up by the ADL as being “influential”.
>Uh, yeah. And little green men from Mars stole my pickup truck. Sure
thing.

Scott,

One of the reasons the adl keeps claiming this stuff is that the
supremacists, including members of the identity movement keep posting
their nonsense here in m.a.m., and then claiming to be part of us. Until
we drive them completely off of the newsgroup, AND keep them there, we
will not be able to convince such groups that they do not speak for us.

Arlin

From [email protected] Mon May 6 00:19:03 PDT 1996
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Date: Mon, 6 May 96 2:33:34 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: ALLMIN: US Militia Headquarters Announces Web Site
Lines: 17

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:

>You would be suspicious if your mother wore a red dress. I took a look
at
>the
>web site, and it has nothing on it that half a dozen other militia sites
>don’t
>have.

no mark, but I might be a tad suspicious if YOU wore a red dress…more to
the point, their “let us know if your unit isn’t listed here” is one of
the oldest tricks in the book to elicit information from the unsuspecting.
I still say it smells funny to me.

Arlin

From [email protected] Fri May 10 11:18:29 PDT 1996
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Date: Mon, 6 May 96 19:03:48 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: What I’d Like To See
Lines: 78

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:

>>
>>Now mark, you know that is not the stated intent of the Declaration.
>>Quite plainly it was intended to serve notice that illegal acts such as
>>those committed by the government at Ruby Ridge and Waco simply will not
>>be tolerated any longer.
>
>It was a threat; it is difficult to read the document any other way.

hmm, so if I promise that I would turn you in if I saw you breaking the
law, that would also be a threat? when does a promise become a threat?

>>Are you then saying that the forged ‘war alert’ message contains the
same
>>statement?
>
>It was hardly “forged,” since it is so typical of militia communications.

It was most certainly forged, and not particularly well, either. There
were some external similarities, including a poor attempt to copy the
general style of the Declaration, but other than that there were some
glaring problems that the forgers were simply too inept to notice.

These included:
1. Valid Militia notices generally provide a point of contact for further
information.
2. Valid Militia notices applying outside a given unit generally indicate
*which* specific units or organizations have subscribed to the notice.
3. Valid Militia notices do NOT compromise tactical objectives.
4. Valid Militia notices do NOT attempt to dictate policy to
nonsubscribing parties.
5. No valid Militia plan has ever, to my knowledge, targetted the
military. There is no need to do so, nor would doing so be in the best
interests of the Constitution.
6. No valid Militia plan has ever, to my knowledge, made the media a
priority target. This would be a stupid waste of resources, as well as a
critical public relations error.
7. There is No centralized command and control structure within the
militias with the authority to issue the types of ‘orders’ contained in
the forgery.

These are all things you are, or should be aware of, Mark, come on. get
real.

>> Is it also signed by representatives from Constitutional
>>Militias throughout a number of different geographic areas?
>
>As I said, it was anonymous.

ayep.

>> While we’re
>>at it, do you believe that the activities it advocates are within
current
>>militia capabilities?
>
>Not really; the neo-militia groups are a bunch of wacked-out yahoos who
like
>to
>play at being Rambo. But that doesn’t mean that some of them couldn’t
hurt
>some people if they were to take it seriously.

hmm, other than the obvious bigotry of that statement, the real answer to
that question is that the Militias, being defensive organizations, do not
have the level of Command and Control neccessary to coordinate or execute
the activities mentioned in the forgery, over any large geographic area.
Let’s see, now, who took the forgery seriously: none of the militia
people I know, none of the *non* militia people I’ve shown it to have
bought it for more than about 30 seconds…so let’s see the fbi *claims*
they bought into it, portions of the mainstream media were fooled by it,
and, well, you, mark…can’t think of anybody else…

From [email protected] Fri May 10 11:18:31 PDT 1996
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militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Mon, 6 May 96 15:18:15 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: What I’d Like To See
Lines: 22

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:

>Henry Bibee has conveniently reposted his threat, so that everybody can
once
>again see how the militia “will not be restrained” if the feds harm a
hair on
>the chinny-chin-chin of the Hole in the Wall gang.

Now mark, you know that is not the stated intent of the Declaration.
Quite plainly it was intended to serve notice that illegal acts such as
those committed by the government at Ruby Ridge and Waco simply will not
be tolerated any longer.

Are you then saying that the forged ‘war alert’ message contains the same
statement? Is it also signed by representatives from Constitutional
Militias throughout a number of different geographic areas? While we’re
at it, do you believe that the activities it advocates are within current
militia capabilities?

Arlin

From [email protected] Fri May 10 11:18:32 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Mon, 6 May 96 20:48:07 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: What I’d Like To See
Lines: 40

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:

>>It was most certainly forged, and not particularly well, either. There
>>were some external similarities, including a poor attempt to copy the
>>general style of the Declaration, but other than that there were some
>>glaring problems that the forgers were simply too inept to notice.
>>
>>These included:
>>1. Valid Militia notices generally provide a point of contact for
further
>>information.
>>2. Valid Militia notices applying outside a given unit generally
indicate
>>*which* specific units or organizations have subscribed to the notice.
>>3. Valid Militia notices do NOT compromise tactical objectives.
>>4. Valid Militia notices do NOT attempt to dictate policy to
>>nonsubscribing parties.
>>5. No valid Militia plan has ever, to my knowledge, targetted the
>>military. There is no need to do so, nor would doing so be in the best
>>interests of the Constitution.
>>6. No valid Militia plan has ever, to my knowledge, made the media a
>>priority target. This would be a stupid waste of resources, as well as
a
>>critical public relations error.
>>7. There is No centralized command and control structure within the
>>militias with the authority to issue the types of ‘orders’ contained in
>>the forgery.
>
>I forget where the Valid Militia Notice Requirement Handbook is lodged,
but
>apparently you are the only one with access to it.

The only way someone could have failed to notice these things would be if
he were to take *everything* that had the word ‘militia’ in it at face
value…c’mon mark, you’re supposed to be a researcher. A major part of a
researcher’s job is learning to seperate the wheat from the chaff, don’t
tell me you haven’t been watching for patterns in communications?

From [email protected] Fri May 10 11:18:33 PDT 1996
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Date: Tue, 7 May 96 0:33:10 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Christian Identity
Lines: 16

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Tim Hill)
writes:

>Perhaps they wonder why you claim to be a part of their militia. Hate and

>the militias are intertwined and will remain so, no matter what your
>personal militia vision may be. You are drawing from the same cesspool.

interesting image tim, and you are right to the extent that we have a
severe PR problem on our hands, but I have seen little of the hate you and
others attribute to us among any of the militia folk I know. Anger, yes,
frustration, certainly, but not the sort of nonsense that we are accused
of when folks smear us and the supremacists together in one breath. We
draw our people from society at large, so I don’t know how you can refer
to it as a cesspool, sorry, this baffles me.

From [email protected] Fri May 10 11:18:34 PDT 1996
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Date: Tue, 7 May 96 0:33:16 GMT
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Subject: Re: The Complete Story of the Montana Freemen
Lines: 7

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:

> the extremist right-wing militia movement,

ya gotta love the way he gets it all in one breath like that….

From [email protected] Fri May 10 11:18:34 PDT 1996
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Date: Tue, 7 May 96 6:03:17 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Electoral Process???
Lines: 16

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] writes:

> Yet, the militia movement
>despite it’s numbers is completely unable to rally any comparable
numbersdespite
>the actual numbers that the movement commands. What is needed is a mass
>assembly that would demonstrate the extent of support for the Patriot
Movement. What
>do you think?

Although a really neat idea in theory, I think this could very easily be
subverted by the bad guys into an incident of astronomical
proportions…sorry, but at least not until the reno/freeh travelling
barbeque show is out of the government, okay?

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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 7 May 96 6:03:03 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Is it really possible to be too RIGHT (or, as the pathologically bigoted …
Lines: 14

In article <[email protected]>, “Singapore: The Excelsior City”
writes:

>Usually, when a liberal extremist learns of Lee Kuan Yew (LKY), who has
been
>crusading for urbane civility, decency,

OH LORD! now we’re being spammed by fascists from other countries.
Singapore, for those of you who don’t know, is a virtual police state,
complete with neighborhood informers. Hmm, anybody have an email address
for the Singapore resistance?

Arlin H. Adams

From [email protected] Fri May 10 11:18:36 PDT 1996
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Date: Tue, 7 May 96 15:03:07 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: What I’d Like To See
Lines: 17

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Janet
L. Littler) writes:

>Thank you, Mr. Pitcavage, for your usually illiterate reply.

Hi Janet,

mark has this problem, you see, in that he has no desire to understand why
we are here or what we are doing. His only desire is to denigrate anyone
who doesn’t agree with him. In a way, I’m sure he must be very lonely,
surviving solely on his ego, as he does; but that’s not really something
any of us can do anything about. Please don’t be surprised if he doesn’t
respond coherently to your post. His fear of, and aversion to, the real
world usually overrides everything else.

Arlin H. Adams

From [email protected] Fri May 10 11:18:37 PDT 1996
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Date: Sun, 5 May 96 14:48:03 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: I’m sorry
Lines: 12

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Mo10Cav) writes:

>
>I wanted to say I am sorry about saying all those negative things about
>”threatman”
>
>

nice try mikey, but we can all read addresses here. this wasn’t even a
particularly creative forgery…careful or you’re going to forget your
password again, and then where will you be?

From [email protected] Fri May 10 11:18:38 PDT 1996
Article: 17681 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sun, 5 May 96 14:48:14 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Let’s Get a German Base In Israel Next!
Lines: 20

In article <[email protected]>, Brad Camis
writes:

>If it’s good for America, surely it must be good for Israel! Lets get a
>Luftwafe
>Base permanently placed in Israel Next!!! Or are the Israelies going to
be
>the
>enemies of our beloved peace? Surely, the Israelies would wecome this as
>much as
>the Americans!

uh, Brad, the reason the Germans want space here is because their aircraft
don’t have enough open room to safely practice supersonic maneuvering in
Germany – the entire country is too densely populated. Now why in the
world would they want to put a base in Israel, which is smaller and more
densely populated than Germany?

Arlin

From [email protected] Fri May 10 11:18:38 PDT 1996
Article: 17698 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Wed, 8 May 96 8:48:32 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: We _have been_ invaded.
Lines: 15

In article <[email protected]>, klaatu writes:

>he suburbs of Washington DC are
>no longer in the control of the duly-constituted authorities. Control is
in
>the hands of immigrant populations which have been gathering rapidly for
the
>last two years.

*whew* klaatu, man, whatever you’re doing, you need to lay off it for a
while…

Arlin Adams
who just happens to live in a multicultural suburb of D.C.

From [email protected] Fri May 10 11:18:39 PDT 1996
Article: 17699 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Wed, 8 May 96 8:48:39 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: We _have been_ invaded.
Lines: 15

In article <[email protected]>, klaatu writes:

>he suburbs of Washington DC are
>no longer in the control of the duly-constituted authorities. Control is
in
>the hands of immigrant populations which have been gathering rapidly for
the
>last two years.

*whew* klaatu, man, whatever you’re doing, you need to lay off it for a
while…

Arlin Adams
who just happens to live in a multicultural suburb of D.C.

From [email protected] Fri May 10 11:18:40 PDT 1996
Article: 17702 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 7 May 96 18:18:04 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Christian Identity
Lines: 91

In a message dated 96-05-07 12:48:21 EDT, you write:

> the conspiratorial theories about a one-world government are CLEARLY
>tracable to anti-Semitic ideas about Jews trying to control the world. I
>can offer you documentation proving that when issues such as gun control,
>government law abuses, and states’ rights inflamed teh anger of many
>Americans, racists and anti-semites infiltrated conservative ranks and
>began plantiung seeds about this New World Order thing in order to get
>basic conservatives and moderates to hate the government and rebel. This

I don’t think you understood my historical comments in my previous
message.
Let me try to be a bit clearer this time around: You are making the same
mistake made by many who lack a familiarity with historical matters. If,
in
point of fact, you *had* taken a look at the revolutionary war era, you
would
have seen that the issues reflected in the militia movement today were
issues
back then too. Everything from local control to the legality of militias

The Green Mountain Boys, considered heroes now, were an UNAUTHORIZED
militia
unit formed to defend what is now Vermont from the encroachment of a
greedy
New York government. In the same manner, if you had any depth of
knowledge
concerning the roots of European antisemitism, you would realize that the
‘protocols’ were originally written to inflame the less well educated
European lower middle and working classes. Because of this, there are
some
similarities between topics addressed in the ‘protocols’ and the concerns
of
modern day populists. Your lack of historical knowledge in these areas
has
seriously damaged your ability to understand the current situation.

>all fits into the Christian Identity desire to overthrow the Jewish pawn
>government.

you also appear to know very little about the psychology of demagogues.
As
with all such, the ci types merely chose a convenient target external to
their own situation, on which they blame all of their ills. Since they
are
also anti-semites, the ci paint the government as a ‘Jewish’ organization.
I
have yet to meet any militia members who actually buy into this nonsense.
In
point of fact, if you knew anything about ci, you’d realize that they were
initially formed as an offshoot of the ‘aryan nations’ which in turn
evolved
various street gang members who found themselves doing hard time in
various
state and federal penitentiaries in the western U.S.

You have totally ignored my rebuttal, based on personal experiences inside
the fe(de)ral government. You have totally ignored the documented cases
of
repeated governmental abuses of the populace. You have ignored the
historical record. You have, in point of fact, totally ignored all
factual
evidence which doesn’t fit your theory.

>Much of it started with the 1980s farm crisis , when the Posse
>Comitatus began spreading their hate and bizarre legal and conspiratorial
>theories throughout the heartland. This is irrefutabley documentable.

LOL! only if you don’t bother to go back any further than 1980…the Posse
was well established in the mid-west by the late 1970’s. I know this
because
I, personally, was involved in an armed confrontation with them at that
time.
They, as with all of their ilk, were a bunch of uneducated bullies who cut
and ran at the first indication that they were about to have to put up or
shut up.

I find it rather sad, although I guess one might say it was predictable,
that
someone like you should try to make a fast buck off of the Patriot/Militia
movement. Your research is at best, incomplete, and at worst
intentionally
shoddy. Doubtless you are not the only one to practice this myopic
methodology; but don’t go looking for justification around here, because I
guarantee that you will NOT find it.

Arlin H. Adams

From [email protected] Fri May 10 11:18:41 PDT 1996
Article: 17781 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sun, 5 May 96 2:48:19 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Dees is a patriot!
Lines: 22

Yo, Frankie,

> My tongue nearly tore through the inside of my cheeck when
>I wrote that πŸ™‚

*whew* for a minute there I was beginning to think I’d just subscribed to
the twilight zone version of m.a.m….

>Dees has repeated again and again that it’s only a *few* in
>the militias who are potential terrorists.And he’s repeatedly
>stated that there’s ‘alot of decent,honest citizens’ in the
>militias.

His words say that, but his reactions to *any* militia members indicate
otherwise – did you see him on nightline a week or so ago? Also after
giving disclaimers he then proceeds to say “the militias ” this, and “the
militias” that, without being specific, and yes that does look more than a
bit like a smear campaign from here.

Arlin

From [email protected] Fri May 10 11:18:42 PDT 1996
Article: 17783 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Wed, 8 May 96 15:48:25 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Let’s Get a German Base In Israel Next!
Lines: 45

In article <[email protected]>, Brad Camis
writes:

>
> If there is not enough space for the Germans to fly their
>aircraft over germany then:
>A. Why is there enough space over Germany for the US to fly better and
>faster airplanes over Germany?

*slowly*. They are restricted by the status of forces agreement to the
same general practices as their host country. In other words the USAF
aren’t allowed to practice high speed low altitude maneuvers over Germany
either. [now before anybody starts sending me war stories about being
dusted by a fighter, I *KNOW they still do this sometimes, but it really
is a major no-no].

>B. How do you propose the Germans intend to use their aicraft, if not to
>defend the skies over Germany?

You misinterpreted what I wrote. What I said was that they are not
allowed, by their federal laws, to practice certain types of flying over
their home country due to problems with high population densities. They
are most especially not allowed to practice high speed nap-of-the-earth
(NOE) type maneuvers which are what they would most likely be using in a
war time situation. Dumb law? you bet! But all THAT proves is that the
german bureaucrats aren’t any smarter than their American counterparts.

>C. If the Israelies have even less airspace to fly over Israel, how are
they
>able to manage to practice and fly their US supplied, (and faster than
the Germans)
>aircraft over Israel?

Combat Air Patrols. Oh, yeah, and they send *their* folks to the US for
training as well.

>Dah? Can you explain this, or do you want someone to tell you about the
>rabbits again instead?

you did ?what? with a rabbit??!!

Arlin

From [email protected] Fri May 10 11:18:43 PDT 1996
Article: 17784 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Wed, 8 May 96 15:48:19 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: What I’d Like To See
Lines: 12

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:

>> Case in point: the coverup in the murder of Vincent Foster.
>
>A cover-up that exists solely in the minds of conspiracy nuts.
>
>

hmm, and the special counsel for the Whitewater investigation…or doesn’t
he count?

From [email protected] Fri May 10 11:18:44 PDT 1996
Article: 17854 of misc.activism.militia
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atype.com!militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Thu, 9 May 96 14:48:21 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: In Defence of Mark T Pitsavage
Lines: 28

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:

>>He’s a disingenuous statist lackey collecting names for later
prosecution
>>by his masters. Don’t let the scholarly guise fool you– he’s just a
>>troll and a snitch– and should be despised as such. — Mike
Vanderboegh
>
>
>You’re so cute when you go in for the personal attack. I’ll remind you,
>however, that it was your boss, not mine, who was revealed to be
collecting
>names for his masters. In the minds of many here, you are probably no
more
>”trustworthy” than I am.

Now here, folks, we have an excellent example of mark practicing one
aspect of the ‘big lie’ technique. In this case, he has taken the
compromise of the Tri-States National Communication Center, and twisted it
so as to *attempt* to make it appear that the NCS was actually running
things. Of course it wasn’t, but that’s not the point. By writing in
this way, he attempts to get the reader to ignore the facts, and cast
doubts on Mike’s character. Although he totally fails in the attempt, it
*is* interesting that he would even resort to something this blatant.

From [email protected] Fri May 10 11:18:45 PDT 1996
Article: 17873 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Thu, 9 May 96 15:03:04 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Why Vet Newsgroups Are Being Monitored
Lines: 18

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Walter
Ulrich) writes:

>
>BTW, could someone translate, “potentially actualize terrorist
>telegraphing”? My Newspeak dictionary doesn’t have a listing
>under that phrase.

Hi Walter,

it’s pseudo-psychobabble. These guys are a couple of lefty trolls, who
get their jollies out of posting pseudointellectual pieces that get people
upset. The best way to deal with them is to simply ignore them for a
couple of weeks…their little egoes can’t stand to be ignored, so they’ll
wander off in search of more fertile ground.

Arlin

From [email protected] Fri May 10 11:18:46 PDT 1996
Article: 17881 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Thu, 9 May 96 9:48:29 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Hey! [email protected] Learn How To Post
Lines: 6

uh Walt? it wasn’t his fault – the #@[email protected]# aol nntp server fritzed out
again yesterday…I guess it had something to do with going to a ‘new and
improved’ version of the software, or something…

Arlin

From [email protected] Fri May 10 11:18:47 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Thu, 9 May 96 16:18:04 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Govt using race to distract citizens
Lines: 26

>Hello fellow revolutionaries πŸ™‚ ….I’m new to this group

careful Katie, the feds have already admitted to monitoring us here, and
if you keep throwing the ‘r’ word around like this you’ll pique their
interest.

>and I was wondering if you all knew about the following incident
>that occurred in Philadelphia…would you consider MOVE a miltia?

Yes, and to the extent that they were trying to protect their community
>from depredations by the government, I suppose they would qualify as a
militia. God knows the Philly cops thoughts so – it was the cops that
dropped the bomb on them. Their politics were a bit socialist for most of
us here, but that doesn’t mean they didn’t have the right to live as they
saw fit, so long as they didn’t bother other folks while they were doing
so.

> Will you
>suppport MOVE survivors in their fight for justice?

You’re going to have to be more specific on this – how many are left?
what are they doing about what happened? etc. I doubt many of us are
current on this issue – can you fill us in?

Arlin Adams

From [email protected] Fri May 10 11:18:48 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Thu, 9 May 96 9:33:19 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: War against the US government
Lines: 35

Y’know mikey, I just don’t get it, you’ve been posting this stuff here for
over a year now, and every time you’ve gotten flamed. There are very few
possible reasons why you continue:

1. You achieve some sort of stimulation or gratification from either
writing this crap, or from the flame wars which ensue. If this is the
case, I would really suggest that you need to find a better way to get
your jollies – all you do here is embarass yourself in front of the world
2. You honestly believe that somehow, the revolution is going to start
any day now, and you want to be able to point to dejanews and claim that
you were somehow a leader. If this is the case, perhaps you should
consider that your posts have probably made you a priority target for the
bad guys. You have to live *through* the revolution before you lay claim
to history, and right now, I wouldn’t bet a plugged nickel on the chances
of that happening. With the number of alarms your posts must have set
off, the feds will undoubtedly be all over you like a dirty diaper, the
minute things start to happen.
3. You are intentionally creating inflamatory posts, so that person or
persons unknown can use them to demonstrate how the militia movement is
populated by irrational people. If this, indeed, proves to be the case,
the warm reception you seem to expect from other militia units may not, in
fact, be the reception you find waiting.
4. You are simply a kid with a computer, who sees this all as a big
videogame. It doesn’t matter to you what is actually going on here, so
you feel you can say anything you want to, and then brag to your buddies
about your membership in the militia. If this is the case, I doubt that
you will quit posting unless or until something does hit the fan. Then,
of course, you are going to have to spend quite a while convincing the
feds and their minions that you were just kidding…if you can, and if
they let you live long enough to plead your case.

So, which is it?

Arlin Adams

From [email protected] Fri May 10 11:18:49 PDT 1996
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Date: Thu, 9 May 96 9:33:26 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Is it wrong to be REALLY RIGHT (or, as the pathologically bigoted “libera…
Lines: 3

w-e-l-l he may not be bright, and he may not make sense, but he sure
doesn’t give up easily, now does he?

From [email protected] Fri May 10 11:18:50 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Thu, 9 May 96 16:48:04 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Remember the Children (OK City)
Lines: 11

In article <[email protected]>, Jim Murray
writes:

>There was not mention of it on the local TV news that night either.

uh, Jim, you were expecting the PC tv stations here in DC to cover
something critical of the fedgov? heck, anything that doesn’t fit their
political agenda, doesn’t even get noticed.

Arlin

From [email protected] Fri May 10 11:18:50 PDT 1996
Article: 17924 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Fri, 10 May 96 2:33:12 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Militia and “Nuclear Umbrella”
Lines: 42

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Michael
Rivero) writes:
> Never mind some plumber’s attempt at a pipe bomb. A spray perfume
bottle
>at the closing cerimonies of the Olympics would greatly reduce the entire

>world’s population problem.

Gentlemen, if I might intrude for a moment? There are two primary
problems with using any sort of biological agent. The first is in finding
a suitable ‘vector’. Unlike chemical agents, many of which can be spread
through the air, most bio agents require a vector. A vector is something
which will carry the virus/bacteria/ whatever in such a way as to spread
it throughout the target population. Vectors have traditionally been the
bane of the biowar set. Most effective: Black Plague – the rats carried
the fleas that carried the virus. The rats went everywhere, took the
fleas with them, and boom, the plague developed. Least effective: the
Japanese biowar labs apparently developed a fairly lethal viral strain
during WWII, but the problem was that the vector it was developed for was
bird feathers. Since very few birds bothered to hang around a
battlefield, the only way to deliver the vector in quantity was to have
aircraft fly low and slow over enemy positions, while the feathers were
shovelled out…needless to say this was NOT a popular concept with the
Japanese Air Force.
The second major problem is control. Obviously an attacker wants the
enemy to suffer from a weapon, while leaving friendlies (relatively)
untouched (although this might not be true if one was dealing with a
suicide cult). Bioweapons are notoriously indescriminate, so it stands to
reason that an attacker would only use a bio weapon for which they already
had a vaccine developed. Since people are aware of this, if some sort of
rare plague were to develop world wide, *except* for in one country, where
they *suddenly* discovered a *rare* vaccine that prevented it, w-e-l-l I
know what *I* would think under the circumstances.

In other words, other than a suicide cult, I can foresee few possible
applications of biowarfare agents in the near future.

Just my 2 cents worth
Arlin

From [email protected] Fri May 10 11:18:51 PDT 1996
Article: 17951 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Fri, 10 May 96 12:03:04 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: “Freemen” holding child hostages ???????
Lines: 39

Hi Gary,

I’m not sure you are seeing this situation in the same terms as the
participants.

>I strongly suspect the women who died at Waco had ‘BRAINS’ also, but
>that certainly doesn’t mean they are being used.

In the case of the Davidians, they had no reason to expect the government
to attempt an all out attack on their compound, especially one which would
lead to their deaths – the world was watching, the mistake the Davidians
made was in assuming the world would do something to stop the
blackshirts…now THAT was a fatal error.

>My concern is the CHILDREN, why do these ‘types’ have to surround
>themselves with children, knowing FULL WELL what can or might take
>place?

uh, Gary, who are these ‘types’, you are talking about? People with
families? Single parents? or just people who disagree with the
government? I’m not clear on what you mean here.

>If the FBI/BATF agents brought their children to the standoff scene
>ala the Davidians at Waco or the Freemen/Freewomen in Montana this
>newsgroup would just explode about charges of Child hostages, yet
>not much gets mentioned about it when the Davidians or Freemen/Women
>practice it.

The fbi/batf didn’t/ don’t *live* there Gary, the Davidians *did* live in
the Mt. Carmel compound, even as the FM do live on the ranch. I realize
the media tend to make this all appear arbitrary and capricious, but that
certainly was and is not the case. Hmm, or is your point that dissidents
shouldn’t be allowed to keep their children? that seems to be where
you’re going with this argument.

Arlin H. Adams

From [email protected] Fri May 10 11:18:52 PDT 1996
Article: 17952 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Fri, 10 May 96 12:03:12 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Genital Exam of 59 12 Yr. old Girls by GOALS 2000–>>
Lines: 18

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected]”@KUHUB.CC.UKANS.EDU writes:

>Does anybody here besides myself and Arlin have the vaguest idea what OBE
>is? Besides, dumbing down American schools and fondling sixth-graders
>are two entirely different things.

oh, one or two of the folks do, I’m sure. The actual objection here,
Mike, is to federally mandated controls. For a lot of folks, though, OBE
and Goals 2000 have become symbols of these attempts at federal control.
In all honesty, OBE was an excellent idea subsequently politicized (and
thus ruined) from the left by the NEA; while my personal impression of G2K
is that it’s a totally unworkable piece of paper pushed through to make
the politicians *look* like they were doing something.

Just my 2 cents worth
Arlin

From [email protected] Fri May 10 14:31:32 PDT 1996
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From [email protected] Fri May 10 18:06:28 PDT 1996
Article: 17970 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Fri, 10 May 96 18:33:04 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: The Messiah…David Koresh?
Lines: 18

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Mr J.S.
Muschell) writes:

>But to take up arms against your country – WHICH IS WHAT YOU ARE DOING –
is
>a very serious step, and is bordering on treason. As such, it should be
>considered only as AN ABSOLUTE LAST RESORT.
>
>We are not there yet, and it is virtually impossible that we will ever
be.

Hi J.S.

I guess the question that comes to my mind is – at what point DO you
believe such a last resort is justified?

Arlin Adams

From [email protected] Fri May 10 18:06:30 PDT 1996
Article: 17972 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Thu, 9 May 96 9:48:48 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Hey! [email protected] Learn How To Post
Lines: 6

uh Walt? it wasn’t his fault – the #@[email protected]# aol nntp server fritzed out
again yesterday…I guess it had something to do with going to a ‘new and
improved’ version of the software, or something…

Arlin

From [email protected] Sat May 11 09:35:11 PDT 1996
Article: 17986 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Fri, 10 May 96 18:18:44 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: More patriots picked off one-by-one in GA, pussies
Lines: 18

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Mr J.S.
Muschell) writes:

>Hold on a second here. I’ve read other pro-militia posters on this
newsgroup
>who say that the militia movement is about *defense*. What exactly are
you
>going to “prepare” for?
>
>

The time when we shall have to defend ourselves, our families and
communities against aggressors, which as we’ve seen in recent years, can
include certain portions of the federal government. An adiquate defense
requires at *least* as much preparation as an attack does.

Arlin Adams

From [email protected] Sat May 11 09:35:12 PDT 1996
Article: 17988 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sat, 11 May 96 2:33:04 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Genital Exam of 59 12 Yr. old Girls by GOALS 2000–>>
Lines: 14

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Walter
Ulrich) writes:

[a lot of good stuff cut out to save space]

>4. Avoid telling the truth, which should be easy, as nobody in WA
>DC has the faintist idea what it is.

ah shoot, Walt, there must be at least 4 or 5 of us…’course none of *us*
work for the federal government…hmm, maybe there’s a correlation there
somewhere…:-)

Arlin

From [email protected] Sat May 11 09:35:13 PDT 1996
Article: 17992 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sat, 11 May 96 2:48:11 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Militia Threat
Lines: 9

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Joseph T.
Adams) writes:

> It can be confusing, but since we are
>all very much distinct individuals, I would ask that people *try* to
>keep us straight. πŸ™‚

yeah, just remember Joe is the one with the hat…

From [email protected] Sat May 11 09:35:13 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Fri, 10 May 96 2:48:18 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Remember the Children (OK City)
Lines: 11

In article <[email protected]>, Jim Murray
writes:

>Actually there was a 30 second spot on the Waco protest on 7 and cable 8,
>no coverage of an armed march though.

I stand corrected! sorry. I gave up on those anti-gun, liberal @#[email protected]#$ a
while ago…

Arlin

From [email protected] Sat May 11 09:35:14 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sat, 11 May 96 6:33:37 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: “Freemen” holding child hostages ???????
Lines: 70

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Gary Newberry)
writes:

> UMMMM I’m not a ‘Rocket Scientist’ however , “I” wouldn’t expect to
>shoot at or kill anyone, much less a policeman or FBI/BATF Agent
>serving a search warrant and think I’m going to hole up and that they
>are going to just go away. I would KNOW that they are going to end the
>standoff sooner or later and root me and any followers out of my
>home/compound or whatever you want to call it by some means or method.

The correlary of this, would seem to be that you believe that the
government *does* have the right to, without provocation, shoot at you,
and attack your home using lethal force (a la the initial assault on the
Davidian compound), and that you would not resist such an assault. Is
that a correct assessment of your position?

>’Types” refers to the mindset of those who think they can flagrantly
>break the law that most everyone else obeys and arm themselves and
>attempt to get away with it. Lots of people have Kited checks ala the
>FM, most don’t them grab a gun and attempt to hold off law enfocement,

Okay, first off, nobody here is defending the FM’s actions vis a vis their
rather unique ideas on capital generation. However, what Typhanee and I
and some of the others are trying to get across to you is that you and
thee FM are operating from substantially different frame of reference.
To all appearances, the FM believe the federal government to be an illegal
and immoral organization. WHETHER OR NOT THAT IS REASONABLE TO YOU, in
order to understand *their* actions, you must understand what is
reasonable to them. Think of this as an extreme case of multiculturalism.
From *their* perspective they are acting in a logical manner, consistent
with their beliefs. It is because of this cultural collision that I fear
the end for these folks will not go well at all.

>in the same vein as most religious organizations wouldn’t shoot at or
>kill someone attempting to serve a search warrant.

I believe you’re talking about the Davidians again? If so, only if one
actually believes the story that the atf were attempting to serve a
warrant (which later testimony shows the atf agents didn’t even bother to
take with them), would this be a rational statement. You will be
hardpressed to find anyone on this newsgroup who believes such was the
case. For a more balanced view of what actually occurred in the initial
government assault on the Mt. Carmel compound, you might try reading Dick
Reavis’ book THE ASHES OF WACO.

>My point is ‘COMMON HORSE SENSE’, if YOU were in an armed standoff
>with law enfocement officials would YOU want ANY children around ?

Of course one would not intentionally wish to put children in harms way.
However, if one is poor (as are most of the FM) and one is surrounded in
one’s own home, as they are, there aren’t many options left. Not
everybody can pull out the gold card and send the kids off to Disney World
for a few weeks, you know? As importantly, please remember that both in
the case of the FM and the case of the Davidians, the federal government
is perceived *by*the*people*involved* as being inherently evil. Would you
choose to turn your children over to evil people, even if threatened at
gunpoint? Again, unless you understand the culture and perspective of
these folks, there is no adiquate way to determine their motivations.

>Did you miss the nationally syndicated political cartoon with a FM all
>dressed in his camouflage gear holding a rifle , with a child strapped
>to his chest ???

Interesting question. I guess my reaction is yes, indeed, I did miss that
cartoon, but that’s okay – my views are formed on experience, reading, and
thoughtful reflection; rather than political propaganda cartoons.

Arlin Adams

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From [email protected] Sat May 11 11:56:22 PDT 1996
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Subject: Re: Jewish Militia in NYC
Lines: 9

Interesting, isn’t it, how hub*r manages to censor out any discussion of
the actual facts of the case. Of course as a nazi, facts don’t mean
anything to him……

Arlin H. Adams

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Date: Sat, 11 May 96 8:48:26 GMT
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Subject: Re: News! Near Total Gun Ban in Australia
Lines: 7

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Mike
Light) writes:

>Sounds like an export opportunity for east-Europe and east-Asian nations.

yeah, and the prices are going to go through the roof!

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In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Mike
Light) writes:

>Sounds like an export opportunity for east-Europe and east-Asian nations.

yeah, and the prices are going to go through the roof!

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militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sat, 11 May 96 8:48:38 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: News! Near Total Gun Ban in Australia
Lines: 7

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Mike
Light) writes:

>Sounds like an export opportunity for east-Europe and east-Asian nations.

yeah, and the prices are going to go through the roof!

From [email protected] Sat May 11 16:46:10 PDT 1996
Article: 18052 of misc.activism.militia
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Posted-Date: 11 May 1996 04:35:13 -0400
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militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sat, 11 May 96 8:48:53 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: ALLMIN: US Militia Headquarters Announces Web Site
Lines: 11

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Tom E.)
writes:

> Yeah, das right.
>Uh-huh. An if I’m lying, may lightning strike Pitcavage!

Uh, Tom, I’m kinda ambivalent about telling mark to duck…you want to do
it?

Arlin

From [email protected] Sat May 11 16:46:11 PDT 1996
Article: 18053 of misc.activism.militia
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Posted-Date: 11 May 1996 04:35:18 -0400
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militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sat, 11 May 96 8:49:00 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: ALLMIN: US Militia Headquarters Announces Web Site
Lines: 11

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Tom E.)
writes:

> Yeah, das right.
>Uh-huh. An if I’m lying, may lightning strike Pitcavage!

Uh, Tom, I’m kinda ambivalent about telling mark to duck…you want to do
it?

Arlin

From [email protected] Sat May 11 16:46:12 PDT 1996
Article: 18054 of misc.activism.militia
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Posted-Date: 11 May 1996 04:35:24 -0400
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militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sat, 11 May 96 8:49:07 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: ALLMIN: US Militia Headquarters Announces Web Site
Lines: 11

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Tom E.)
writes:

> Yeah, das right.
>Uh-huh. An if I’m lying, may lightning strike Pitcavage!

Uh, Tom, I’m kinda ambivalent about telling mark to duck…you want to do
it?

Arlin

From [email protected] Sat May 11 16:46:13 PDT 1996
Article: 18055 of misc.activism.militia
Sender: [email protected]
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Posted-Date: 11 May 1996 04:35:31 -0400
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militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sat, 11 May 96 8:49:13 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: ALLMIN: US Militia Headquarters Announces Web Site
Lines: 11

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Tom E.)
writes:

> Yeah, das right.
>Uh-huh. An if I’m lying, may lightning strike Pitcavage!

Uh, Tom, I’m kinda ambivalent about telling mark to duck…you want to do
it?

Arlin

From [email protected] Sat May 11 16:46:14 PDT 1996
Article: 18056 of misc.activism.militia
Sender: [email protected]
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Posted-Date: 11 May 1996 04:35:42 -0400
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militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sat, 11 May 96 8:49:20 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: ALLMIN: US Militia Headquarters Announces Web Site
Lines: 11

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Tom E.)
writes:

> Yeah, das right.
>Uh-huh. An if I’m lying, may lightning strike Pitcavage!

Uh, Tom, I’m kinda ambivalent about telling mark to duck…you want to do
it?

Arlin

From [email protected] Sat May 11 16:46:14 PDT 1996
Article: 18057 of misc.activism.militia
Sender: [email protected]
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Return-Path:
Posted-Date: 11 May 1996 04:36:37 -0400
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atype.com!militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sat, 11 May 96 8:49:26 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Germans take over N.M. AIR STATION
Lines: 18

In article <[email protected]>, Christopher Lazzo
writes:

>If you can’t read this, because of your monolinguist culture, maybe
you’l=
>l find one of your Nazi=20
>friends to translate, a real Nazi should be able to read german!=20
>=20
>I’m not german, I’m not american.

If you have problems with the culture in which you live, perhaps you’d
best state them in terms everyone can understand. Wenn du deine rezension
nur auf Deutsch schreibst dann muss mann denken du bist nur eine Feigling
an. [english translation of the last sentence: When you only write your
critique in German, one must think that you are a coward.]

Arlin H. Adams

From [email protected] Sat May 11 16:46:15 PDT 1996
Article: 18058 of misc.activism.militia
Sender: [email protected]
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Return-Path:
Posted-Date: 11 May 1996 04:36:42 -0400
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militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sat, 11 May 96 8:49:36 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Germans take over N.M. AIR STATION
Lines: 18

In article <[email protected]>, Christopher Lazzo
writes:

>If you can’t read this, because of your monolinguist culture, maybe
you’l=
>l find one of your Nazi=20
>friends to translate, a real Nazi should be able to read german!=20
>=20
>I’m not german, I’m not american.

If you have problems with the culture in which you live, perhaps you’d
best state them in terms everyone can understand. Wenn du deine rezension
nur auf Deutsch schreibst dann muss mann denken du bist nur eine Feigling
an. [english translation of the last sentence: When you only write your
critique in German, one must think that you are a coward.]

Arlin H. Adams

From [email protected] Sat May 11 16:46:16 PDT 1996
Article: 18059 of misc.activism.militia
Sender: [email protected]
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Return-Path:
Posted-Date: 11 May 1996 04:36:47 -0400
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militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sat, 11 May 96 8:49:43 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Germans take over N.M. AIR STATION
Lines: 18

In article <[email protected]>, Christopher Lazzo
writes:

>If you can’t read this, because of your monolinguist culture, maybe
you’l=
>l find one of your Nazi=20
>friends to translate, a real Nazi should be able to read german!=20
>=20
>I’m not german, I’m not american.

If you have problems with the culture in which you live, perhaps you’d
best state them in terms everyone can understand. Wenn du deine rezension
nur auf Deutsch schreibst dann muss mann denken du bist nur eine Feigling
an. [english translation of the last sentence: When you only write your
critique in German, one must think that you are a coward.]

Arlin H. Adams

From [email protected] Sat May 11 16:46:17 PDT 1996
Article: 18060 of misc.activism.militia
Sender: [email protected]
Approved: [email protected] (a6475ec4235a2f87f89fd34b0ba965f5)
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Return-Path:
Posted-Date: 11 May 1996 04:36:53 -0400
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militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sat, 11 May 96 8:49:49 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Germans take over N.M. AIR STATION
Lines: 18

In article <[email protected]>, Christopher Lazzo
writes:

>If you can’t read this, because of your monolinguist culture, maybe
you’l=
>l find one of your Nazi=20
>friends to translate, a real Nazi should be able to read german!=20
>=20
>I’m not german, I’m not american.

If you have problems with the culture in which you live, perhaps you’d
best state them in terms everyone can understand. Wenn du deine rezension
nur auf Deutsch schreibst dann muss mann denken du bist nur eine Feigling
an. [english translation of the last sentence: When you only write your
critique in German, one must think that you are a coward.]

Arlin H. Adams

From [email protected] Sat May 11 16:46:17 PDT 1996
Article: 18061 of misc.activism.militia
Sender: [email protected]
Approved: [email protected] (27c778ee1c27b8ee5414e95f9d9f0b0a)
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Return-Path:
Posted-Date: 11 May 1996 04:36:59 -0400
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militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sat, 11 May 96 8:49:59 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Germans take over N.M. AIR STATION
Lines: 18

In article <[email protected]>, Christopher Lazzo
writes:

>If you can’t read this, because of your monolinguist culture, maybe
you’l=
>l find one of your Nazi=20
>friends to translate, a real Nazi should be able to read german!=20
>=20
>I’m not german, I’m not american.

If you have problems with the culture in which you live, perhaps you’d
best state them in terms everyone can understand. Wenn du deine rezension
nur auf Deutsch schreibst dann muss mann denken du bist nur eine Feigling
an. [english translation of the last sentence: When you only write your
critique in German, one must think that you are a coward.]

Arlin H. Adams

From [email protected] Sat May 11 16:46:18 PDT 1996
Article: 18062 of misc.activism.militia
Sender: [email protected]
Approved: [email protected] (e1a5524e44f4b27ec5a33cc6b329cc4f)
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Return-Path:
Posted-Date: 11 May 1996 04:37:04 -0400
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militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sat, 11 May 96 8:50:05 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Germans take over N.M. AIR STATION
Lines: 18

In article <[email protected]>, Christopher Lazzo
writes:

>If you can’t read this, because of your monolinguist culture, maybe
you’l=
>l find one of your Nazi=20
>friends to translate, a real Nazi should be able to read german!=20
>=20
>I’m not german, I’m not american.

If you have problems with the culture in which you live, perhaps you’d
best state them in terms everyone can understand. Wenn du deine rezension
nur auf Deutsch schreibst dann muss mann denken du bist nur eine Feigling
an. [english translation of the last sentence: When you only write your
critique in German, one must think that you are a coward.]

Arlin H. Adams

From [email protected] Sun May 12 11:39:09 PDT 1996
Article: 18091 of misc.activism.militia
Sender: [email protected]
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Posted-Date: 11 May 1996 04:35:07 -0400
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atype.com!militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sat, 11 May 96 8:48:45 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: News! Near Total Gun Ban in Australia
Lines: 7

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Mike
Light) writes:

>Sounds like an export opportunity for east-Europe and east-Asian nations.

yeah, and the prices are going to go through the roof!

From [email protected] Sun May 12 11:39:12 PDT 1996
Article: 18122 of misc.activism.militia
Sender: [email protected]
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Posted-Date: 11 May 1996 02:30:06 -0400
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atype.com!militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sat, 11 May 96 6:33:29 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: “Freemen” holding child hostages ???????
Lines: 70

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Gary Newberry)
writes:

> UMMMM I’m not a ‘Rocket Scientist’ however , “I” wouldn’t expect to
>shoot at or kill anyone, much less a policeman or FBI/BATF Agent
>serving a search warrant and think I’m going to hole up and that they
>are going to just go away. I would KNOW that they are going to end the
>standoff sooner or later and root me and any followers out of my
>home/compound or whatever you want to call it by some means or method.

The correlary of this, would seem to be that you believe that the
government *does* have the right to, without provocation, shoot at you,
and attack your home using lethal force (a la the initial assault on the
Davidian compound), and that you would not resist such an assault. Is
that a correct assessment of your position?

>’Types” refers to the mindset of those who think they can flagrantly
>break the law that most everyone else obeys and arm themselves and
>attempt to get away with it. Lots of people have Kited checks ala the
>FM, most don’t them grab a gun and attempt to hold off law enfocement,

Okay, first off, nobody here is defending the FM’s actions vis a vis their
rather unique ideas on capital generation. However, what Typhanee and I
and some of the others are trying to get across to you is that you and
thee FM are operating from substantially different frame of reference.
To all appearances, the FM believe the federal government to be an illegal
and immoral organization. WHETHER OR NOT THAT IS REASONABLE TO YOU, in
order to understand *their* actions, you must understand what is
reasonable to them. Think of this as an extreme case of multiculturalism.
From *their* perspective they are acting in a logical manner, consistent
with their beliefs. It is because of this cultural collision that I fear
the end for these folks will not go well at all.

>in the same vein as most religious organizations wouldn’t shoot at or
>kill someone attempting to serve a search warrant.

I believe you’re talking about the Davidians again? If so, only if one
actually believes the story that the atf were attempting to serve a
warrant (which later testimony shows the atf agents didn’t even bother to
take with them), would this be a rational statement. You will be
hardpressed to find anyone on this newsgroup who believes such was the
case. For a more balanced view of what actually occurred in the initial
government assault on the Mt. Carmel compound, you might try reading Dick
Reavis’ book THE ASHES OF WACO.

>My point is ‘COMMON HORSE SENSE’, if YOU were in an armed standoff
>with law enfocement officials would YOU want ANY children around ?

Of course one would not intentionally wish to put children in harms way.
However, if one is poor (as are most of the FM) and one is surrounded in
one’s own home, as they are, there aren’t many options left. Not
everybody can pull out the gold card and send the kids off to Disney World
for a few weeks, you know? As importantly, please remember that both in
the case of the FM and the case of the Davidians, the federal government
is perceived *by*the*people*involved* as being inherently evil. Would you
choose to turn your children over to evil people, even if threatened at
gunpoint? Again, unless you understand the culture and perspective of
these folks, there is no adiquate way to determine their motivations.

>Did you miss the nationally syndicated political cartoon with a FM all
>dressed in his camouflage gear holding a rifle , with a child strapped
>to his chest ???

Interesting question. I guess my reaction is yes, indeed, I did miss that
cartoon, but that’s okay – my views are formed on experience, reading, and
thoughtful reflection; rather than political propaganda cartoons.

Arlin Adams

From [email protected] Sun May 12 11:39:13 PDT 1996
Article: 18130 of misc.activism.militia
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Posted-Date: 12 May 1996 02:40:10 -0400
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militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sun, 12 May 96 6:53:38 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Chechan Militia
Lines: 14

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (PGISSource)
writes:

>Just out of curiosity, is this the philosophical orientation from which
>your comments derive? I’m just wondering, since Herr Kleim has some
>wonderful writings on how to apply and structure posts.

You know, Wiz, you’ve got a point there – especially when one considers
the fact that the nazidiots have been known to cooperate with radical Arab
anti-semitic groups in the past…interesting.

Arlin

From [email protected] Sun May 12 11:39:14 PDT 1996
Article: 18139 of misc.activism.militia
Sender: [email protected]
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Return-Path:
Posted-Date: 12 May 1996 02:39:35 -0400
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.miracle.net!news.randomc.com!imci5!
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atype.com!militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sun, 12 May 96 6:53:10 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Chechan Militia
Lines: 14

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (PGISSource)
writes:

>Just out of curiosity, is this the philosophical orientation from which
>your comments derive? I’m just wondering, since Herr Kleim has some
>wonderful writings on how to apply and structure posts.

You know, Wiz, you’ve got a point there – especially when one considers
the fact that the nazidiots have been known to cooperate with radical Arab
anti-semitic groups in the past…interesting.

Arlin

From [email protected] Sun May 12 11:39:15 PDT 1996
Article: 18172 of misc.activism.militia
Sender: [email protected]
Approved: [email protected] (60c5e75df2a5d4bff037eeacf8953433)
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militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sun, 12 May 96 6:52:56 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Chechan Militia
Lines: 14

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (PGISSource)
writes:

>Just out of curiosity, is this the philosophical orientation from which
>your comments derive? I’m just wondering, since Herr Kleim has some
>wonderful writings on how to apply and structure posts.

You know, Wiz, you’ve got a point there – especially when one considers
the fact that the nazidiots have been known to cooperate with radical Arab
anti-semitic groups in the past…interesting.

Arlin

From [email protected] Sun May 12 11:39:16 PDT 1996
Article: 18175 of misc.activism.militia
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Posted-Date: 12 May 1996 02:39:56 -0400
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sun, 12 May 96 6:53:32 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Chechan Militia
Lines: 14

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (PGISSource)
writes:

>Just out of curiosity, is this the philosophical orientation from which
>your comments derive? I’m just wondering, since Herr Kleim has some
>wonderful writings on how to apply and structure posts.

You know, Wiz, you’ve got a point there – especially when one considers
the fact that the nazidiots have been known to cooperate with radical Arab
anti-semitic groups in the past…interesting.

Arlin

From [email protected] Sun May 12 11:39:17 PDT 1996
Article: 18177 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sun, 12 May 96 6:53:04 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Chechan Militia
Lines: 14

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (PGISSource)
writes:

>Just out of curiosity, is this the philosophical orientation from which
>your comments derive? I’m just wondering, since Herr Kleim has some
>wonderful writings on how to apply and structure posts.

You know, Wiz, you’ve got a point there – especially when one considers
the fact that the nazidiots have been known to cooperate with radical Arab
anti-semitic groups in the past…interesting.

Arlin

From [email protected] Sun May 12 11:39:18 PDT 1996
Article: 18181 of misc.activism.militia
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Posted-Date: 12 May 1996 02:39:43 -0400
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militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sun, 12 May 96 6:53:25 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Chechan Militia
Lines: 14

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (PGISSource)
writes:

>Just out of curiosity, is this the philosophical orientation from which
>your comments derive? I’m just wondering, since Herr Kleim has some
>wonderful writings on how to apply and structure posts.

You know, Wiz, you’ve got a point there – especially when one considers
the fact that the nazidiots have been known to cooperate with radical Arab
anti-semitic groups in the past…interesting.

Arlin

From [email protected] Sun May 12 11:39:20 PDT 1996
Article: 18218 of misc.activism.militia
Sender: [email protected]
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Posted-Date: 12 May 1996 12:08:28 -0400
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sun, 12 May 96 16:18:16 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Democracy vrs Freedom
Lines: 22

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (JD11B) writes:

> Let’s remember that Plessy v.
>Ferguson was not about discrimination per se rather it was about the
>rights of some citzens not to associate with other citizens and the other
>citizens right to equal treatment under the law.

Uh, Chris, I beg to differ. I think this is a somewhat revisionist
interpretation of P.v F. My read was that it *was* in fact intended to
counter de facto differences in treatment, NOT free association. There is
a difference. Example: Let’s say that while I’m working in the yard
another libertarian comes up and asks for a drink, so I reach into my
cooler and hand him a cold one. Now immediately thereafter a liberal
yuppie wanders up and asks the same question. I don’t particularly like
yuppies, and I’m sure he’ll sense that, but as long as I offer *him* a
cold one as well, there’s no problem, even though he will know he his not
really welcome in my yard. If I tell him he has to drink out of the
garden hose, on the other hand, *that* is seperate but not equal.

Interested to hear your response
Arlin

From [email protected] Sun May 12 11:39:21 PDT 1996
Article: 18219 of misc.activism.militia
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Posted-Date: 12 May 1996 12:12:39 -0400
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sun, 12 May 96 16:18:23 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Who are the Officers of maltia groups
Lines: 8

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (JD11B) writes:

> What’s the fail safe mechanism?

common sense, and a generally democratic structure. In this instance the
miltias have a *much* higher level of fail safe than the conventional
armed forces.

From [email protected] Sun May 12 11:39:22 PDT 1996
Article: 18221 of misc.activism.militia
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Posted-Date: 12 May 1996 12:15:37 -0400
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sun, 12 May 96 16:33:05 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Amendments CAN be unconstitutional
Lines: 14

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (JD11B) writes:

>Amendment X
>”The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor
>prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States, or to the
>people.”
>
>Looks pretty clear that it doesn’t say that Mike.

Uh, Chris, in order to understand mikey’s unique perspective one must
approach the Constitution stoned…

Arlin

From [email protected] Mon May 13 08:27:54 PDT 1996
Article: 18263 of misc.activism.militia
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Posted-Date: 12 May 1996 16:29:50 -0400
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sun, 12 May 96 20:33:03 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Germans take over N.M. AIR STATION
Lines: 12

In article <[email protected]>, “Denes S. Varady”
writes:

>[Remember: we have NO peace treaty with Germany!!]

Uh, Denes, that’s because Germany was forced to surrender
*unconditionally* at the end of WWII. In order to have a peace treaty,
both sides have to be able to negotiate…Germany simply wasn’t given that
option.

Arlin Adams

From [email protected] Mon May 13 08:27:59 PDT 1996
Article: 18276 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Mon, 13 May 96 3:48:03 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Who are the Officers of maltia groups
Lines: 14

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:

>Perhaps some people forget how many
>in the movement believe there are thousands and thousands of UN troops in
>this
>country, with many more waiting to invade from Mexico.
>
>
>

perhaps some people forget how many in the movement *don’t* believe these
things.

From [email protected] Mon May 13 08:28:07 PDT 1996
Article: 18278 of misc.activism.militia
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Posted-Date: 12 May 1996 23:46:13 -0400
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Mon, 13 May 96 3:48:17 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: AOL POSTS
Lines: 12

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:

>I think the newsgroup should consider whether or not it wants the
>auto-moderator to exclude all posts from AOL for the next month or so.
>Seeing
>six to ten duplicates of every post from AOL is beyond irritating; it is
>ridiculous.

oh come on, mark, WE put up with YOU…I say block aol if you block
Ohio-state.edu, as well.

From [email protected] Mon May 13 11:17:27 PDT 1996
Article: 18330 of misc.activism.militia
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Posted-Date: 13 May 1996 11:24:31 -0400
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Mon, 13 May 96 15:33:03 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: CAREERS ACT final blow to American Freedom!
Lines: 13

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (John
Dulaney) writes:

> Our Fates?
> Sealed.
> Too late to do anything about it?
> Yes.

Uh, John, when you post to this newsgroup you’re talking to people who are
*already* doing something about it (well, except for mark)…think you may
have targetted the wrong audience with this ad for your web site…try
posting it in alt.inactivism.sheeple….

From [email protected] Mon May 13 11:17:28 PDT 1996
Article: 18331 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Mon, 13 May 96 15:33:11 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: In Defence of Mark T Pitsavage
Lines: 12

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Mo10Cav) writes:

>Take a poll, Markie. Ask the boys and girls on this newsgroup who they
>trust more– you or me.

Mike,

Nobody believes mark’s tripe…he was just trying to get your goat.

Best
Arlin

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:24:47 PDT 1996
Article: 18346 of misc.activism.militia
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militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Mon, 13 May 96 16:18:04 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: In Defence of Mark T Pitsavage
Lines: 27

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:

>Come to think of it, you laid some pretty heavy accusations on militia
>members
>Brad Glover and Stewart Waterhouse, but refused to give any sources.
Maybe
>the
>information came from some federal bosses?
>
>

This one ain’t gonna fly mark. We all know Mike. As for the information
concerning messers Glover and Waterhouse, there is absolutely no reason to
divulge militia information sources to you.

On the other hand mark, we don’t know YOU, since you’ve been so paranoid
about talking about yourself. YOU might enlighten us by explaining just
who *exactly* is providing funding for your research. Absolutely no one
here believes you’re doing this for free. We’ve seen you post during a
regular work day, as I do, but unlike me, YOU are not a disabled
vet…which means that you may very likely be posting from your
office…whereever that might be…if you’re so big on names and
locations, maybe it’s time you started by providing your own.

Arlin H. Adams

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:24:48 PDT 1996
Article: 18365 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Mon, 13 May 96 15:48:05 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Strategy and tactics for militia civil war
Lines: 7

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:

>Yes, it is duly noted that you are advising people to murder me.

ah, and now who is sounding paranoid?

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:24:49 PDT 1996
Article: 18424 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 14 May 96 0:49:35 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: I saw black helicopters once . . .
Lines: 14

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (PGISSource)
writes:

>>BTW: My
>>car is dark blue. What does that symbolize if any aircraft painted
black
>>”means” tyrrany?
>
>a lousy sense of color and low resale value? πŸ™‚
>
>

insurance salesmen? πŸ™‚

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:24:50 PDT 1996
Article: 18446 of misc.activism.militia
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Posted-Date: 14 May 1996 06:33:22 -0400
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hookup!olivea!grapevine.lcs.mit.edu!atype.com!militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 14 May 96 10:48:03 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Who are the Officers of maltia groups
Lines: 29

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected]”@KUHUB.CC.UKANS.EDU writes:

>spake Mark T Pitcavage:
>: >
>: >I’ve seen some very good common sense arguments that say otherwise.
>
>: I don’t care if you’ve seen some common sense arguments that say
otherwise
>that
>: are so good they wash your car and clean your laundry. What I said was
a
>: -fact-, an indisputable -fact-, and one that has been universally
>acknowledged
>: in courts, legal writings, historical writings and everywhere else for
>: -centuries-.
>
>Doc, the Flat Earth, the Geocentric Universe, the nonevolution and
>immutability of species, and the moral rightness of human slavery were
also
>thought to be indisputable universally acknowledged facts for centuries.
>What makes your indisputable fact any different.

Why Mike, if he acknowledged that, why, then he’d have to acknowledge that
people control the law, rather than the other way around…and THEN he’d
be in a position where *people* were more important than written words,
and THEN he’d lose all of his absolutes…why next thing you know, he
might form a militia unit on campus, and *then* where would he be? πŸ˜‰

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:24:51 PDT 1996
Article: 18447 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 14 May 96 11:03:03 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: AOL POSTS
Lines: 14

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (PGISSource)
writes:

>I take it from your response you were not offering to pay the hookup,
>monthly, and long-distance fees … oh well. Yet another unfunded mandate
>based on personal convenience for the “me-only party” rather than an
>effective review of all facts.

But Wiz, mark’s response is typical of those we’ve come to expect from the
fedgov (you’ll notice I did *not* use the term ‘liberal’ this time)…he’s
an excellent example of the problem.

Arlin Adams

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:24:52 PDT 1996
Article: 18450 of misc.activism.militia
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Posted-Date: 14 May 1996 06:59:35 -0400
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 14 May 96 11:03:38 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: In Defence of Mark T Pitsavage
Lines: 47

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:

> If I were, you would not see the notice on the Militia Watchdog
>that I am looking for under-writers.

oh, you wouldn’t need camoflage?

> If I were, I could get a lot more
>subscriptions to extremist newsletters, etc., buy more videos, upgrade my

>obsolete computer equipment, etc., etc., etc.

nice example, but useless in this context since no one here knows what you
are currently purchasing, nor what computer equipment you have.

>As to my posting during a regular work day, I suppose most people with an

>internet connection in their office can do that.

no, actually most people can’t – that’s something that businesses
generally forbid, and there’s network monitoring software specifically
designed to prevent it.

>The reason I don’t like to give out where I work is that I don’t want
>nutcases
>bothering the place;

don’t allow them to hold faculty meetings in your office…oh, you mean
nutcases from *outside* the university…hmm, not knowing who all lurks on
this group, and considering the likes of hub*r and miltie the nazi show up
occaisionally, I think I could accept this as a valid concern.

>I already get hate e-mail and crank phone calls from you
>guys.

uh, which guys? crank phone calls are childish at best, if you asked,
there are probably people associated with the militias in your area, who
might be able to put a stop to that, you know…if in fact it’s militia
folks who are involved to begin with. As for ‘hate email’ does that
include responses to some of your more inflamatory posts? I realize that
there’s a chance you may believe you are on the side of goodness and
light, but does that mean that you don’t have to worry about anything you
say here on the newsgroup? I’m not sure I understand you clearly here.

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:24:52 PDT 1996
Article: 18451 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 14 May 96 11:18:03 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: The Sheeple
Lines: 10

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:

>Maybe the “sheeple” are less sheeplike than you would like to believe.
Maybe
>they simply reject your extremist views because they are not valid.

maybe arguing with mikey is a waste of time…just what exactly set you
off about his use of the term ‘sheeple’, anyway, mark?

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:24:53 PDT 1996
Article: 18457 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 14 May 96 11:19:12 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Who are the Officers of maltia groups
Lines: 22

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Scott Alan
Malcomson) writes:

>Mark T Pitcavage ([email protected]) wrote:
>: About eight months or so ago, I asked people in the newsgroup what
>: they thought about a UN conspiracy to invade the United States, and
>: almost all of the replies said they thought it was true. I doubt
>: opinions here have changed all
>: that much in the ensuing months, but perhaps it is time to ask it
again.
>
>Well, *there’s* a blatant lie…I was here then, and I for one was one of

>those DENOUNCING such poppycock. I saw perhaps three people who thought
>it was actually true, and a large number of people who were willing to
>discuss the notion with its proponents…ah, I see. Pitcavage has lumped
>everyone who was willing to hear the NWO folx out as *being* NWO. Okay.

Scott, mark is just a propagandist, you know – everybody who disagrees
with him doesn’t count, and anybody who does is ‘a majority’….

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:24:54 PDT 1996
Article: 18458 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 14 May 96 11:19:20 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Pitcavage on Patriot Movement
Lines: 13

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (DAVID GROSSACK
) writes:

>Mr. Pitcavage errs when he opines that the patriot movement must
> reconsider its direction if it appears to be drawing insufficent
> public support.

Not to worry David, the morning after the revolution mark will *still* be
sitting at his computer attempting to convince people we don’t stand a
chance πŸ™‚

Arlin Adams

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:24:55 PDT 1996
Article: 18515 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 14 May 96 15:33:03 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: What I’d Like To See
Lines: 22

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Scott Alan
Malcomson) writes:

>Mark T Pitcavage ([email protected]) wrote:
>: In article <[email protected]>, PGISSource
>wrote:
>: >I don’t know, Doc. A few congressmen also seem to share in that
problem.
>: >Are they simply conspiracy nuts? How much of a role have the
politicians
>
>: I think the black helicopters got Vince Foster.
>
>Once again, Mr. Pitcavage shows his tendency to derail any topic on which

>he is contested with senseless blather.

either that, or he’s intentionally skewing his data – you see if he merely
keeps track of irrational responses, then *his* irrational responses count
toward the total…interesting possible cheat, no?

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:24:55 PDT 1996
Article: 18516 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 14 May 96 15:33:12 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Jewish Militia in NYC
Lines: 12

In article <[email protected]>, Eric Engelmann
writes:

>At the risk of being labeled with Mr. Huber, I’ve not seen any posts
>in which he advocates making anyone a sitting duck.

if you can stand the general filth level, you might check out some of the
stuff he posts in the nazidiot news groups…and some of his allies…yes,
they do advocate killing those who disagree with them….

Arlin Adams

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:24:56 PDT 1996
Article: 18517 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 14 May 96 15:33:28 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Why We’re Here WAS Re: German Air-Force in U.S.A
Lines: 12

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (MMedi13720)
writes:

>
>Thanks for asking! What are your thoughts about the whole deal?

uh, Mike, dollars to donuts his thoughts probably revolve around the idea
that he could actually be out chasing down criminals if he hadn’t gotten
stuck behind a desk reading all of these %@#$ newsgroup messages πŸ™‚

Arlin

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:24:57 PDT 1996
Article: 18518 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 14 May 96 15:33:36 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Germans take over N.M. AIR STATION
Lines: 11

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Beatle) writes:

>
>Kill those fucking Nazi’s. What the hell are they doing on our soil? I
can’t
>believe Americans would allow this or even try to join them. All fucking
>traiters must die…..

y’know, once the end of the semester comes around, they really should
defund those undergraduate accounts…

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:24:58 PDT 1996
Article: 18519 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 14 May 96 15:33:45 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: no more crosses
Lines: 12

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (M Huber)
writes:

>It is only a matter of time before new-speakers litigate the cross right
>off your church spire.

hub*r you moron, who do you think you’r peddling this crap to, anyway? It
never ceases to amaze me how your attempts to warp the world into your own
wierd image fail so miserably.

Arlin H. Adams

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:24:59 PDT 1996
Article: 18520 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 14 May 96 15:33:53 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Jews And the New World Order
Lines: 17

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (DAVID GROSSACK
) writes:

> The perception that Jews are part of the New World Order program
> is as erroneous as the notion that fear of the New World Order is
> irrational.

Hi David,

We all know that, thankyou. The only folks who *don’t* understand are
hub*r and miltie the nazi, who occaisionally wander in here from the
nazidiot newsgroups…I think they have a hard time with all of those
computer buttons, you know πŸ˜‰

Best
Arlin Adams

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:25:00 PDT 1996
Article: 18525 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 14 May 96 10:18:20 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Christian Identity
Lines: 15

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (JHistorian)
writes:

>Louis Farrakhan does not presume to speak for the NAACP. He is not even
a
>member. He DOES, however, presume to speak for the Nation of Islam.

Why Jim, you old scoundrel – Long time no complain!

I believe Robert, and most everyone else here already KNOWS Mr.
Farrakhan doesn’t represent the NAACP…that was the point…sarcasm, you
know?

Arlin

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:25:01 PDT 1996
Article: 18531 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 14 May 96 17:03:03 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: I just read about Ruby Ridge. American militias have my sympathy
Lines: 14

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:

>Actually, gun control was not a real issue before the 1920s and 1930s
because
>
>rapid-fire weapons were not readily available before then.

uh, mark, would you please define what you mean by “rapid fire weapons”.
Also, please remember the post-Reconstruction racist gun control laws in
the South.

Arlin

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:25:02 PDT 1996
Article: 18535 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 14 May 96 17:33:04 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: “Worst Nightmare”
Lines: 13

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:

>Ah, but providence was good enough to provide a choice for you, since old
>Henry
>Bibee reposted the threat. Now you can take your foot out of your ass
and
>replace it in your mouth.

except no one other than yourself perceives the Declaration as a
threat…how many times do you want to go ’round *this* particular circle,
mark?

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:25:03 PDT 1996
Article: 18536 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 14 May 96 17:48:03 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: The Sheeple
Lines: 10

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:

>The fact that Mike Chapman said it was irrelevant. Lots of people in
this
>newsgroup and across the patriot movement use the term “sheeple.”

I’m sorry you find that shoe fits so well, but you know mark, you’re the
only one who can change that about you.

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:25:04 PDT 1996
Article: 18537 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 14 May 96 17:18:05 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Pitcavage on Patriot Movement
Lines: 8

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:

>So, when do you propose to start your revolution against the government?

Why, mark, I didn’t say *we* were going to start it. When do you plan to
start openly oppressing political dissidents?

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:25:05 PDT 1996
Article: 18538 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 14 May 96 17:18:14 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Strategy and tactics for militia civil war
Lines: 13

In article <[email protected]>, Robert Marks
writes:

>Consider that these men and their followers brought about genuine
>revolutionary change, without a shot being fired (by them, at any rate.)

Hi Robert,

some of us have a somewhat stronger aversion to being shot *at*, without
defending ourselves, than the examples you gave…

Arlin

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:25:06 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 14 May 96 17:33:48 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Democracy vrs Freedom
Lines: 17

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (JD11B) writes:

> “If the two races are to
>meet upon terms of social equality , it must be the results of natural
>affinities, a mutual appreciation of each other’s merits and a voluntary
>consent of individuals.” I think this language strongly suggests that
>the justices were considering a freedom not to associate somewhere in
>their mind.

difference in perspectives produces interesting interpretations – I take
the same phrase to indicate that such association *must* be voluntary to
be meaningful πŸ™‚ Who was it that said ‘where you stand depends on where
you sit?

Best
Arlin

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:25:07 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 14 May 96 15:18:04 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Who are the Officers of maltia groups
Lines: 24

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (JD11B) writes:

>Are you suggesting that Germans and Italians had no common sense (Refer
to
>the SA and Mussolini’s blackshirts)?

In the same sense that many folks today do not show common sense in
evaluating what they are told by the media, politicians and the like, not
that the Germans and Italians *had* no common sense, but rather that they
failed to exercise it effectively.

> Actually I’d feel a little more
>comfortable with the militia movement if it’s officers were truly
>democratically elected by entire community instead of those few who
volunteer

hmm, certainly in a perfect world this would be the best possible
situation. As it is, though, we have the same situation we get with every
other election – many people ‘vote’ simply by failing to bother to do
anything at all. Old saying: The world is run by those who show up.

Best
Arlin

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:25:08 PDT 1996
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militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Wed, 15 May 96 0:18:16 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: I just read about Ruby Ridge. American militias have my sympathy
Lines: 34

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:

>As previous posters in the thread had already noted, that was a temporary
and
>localized phenomenon, not really equatable to the controversy over gun
control
>today.

hmm, the only previous posters who attempted to make that point were you
and Jim Vargas. As multiple previous posters, including myself pointed
out – not only were these historical racially oppressive gun control laws
the direct linear antecedents of moderng gun control, they were also
intended to accomplish the same thing – keep the power out of the hands of
large segments of society. They are directly related to the controversy
over gun control today.

>As for “defining” rapid fire weapons, I don’t see any reason to do so;
what I
>
>said was perfectly clear.

uh, from your post, in which you specifically refered to ‘tommy guns’
(i.e. Thompson Submachineguns) I took your usage to mean automatic
weapons. Unfortunately that’s not what the term rapid fire means in
firearms parlance. Rapid Fire is a particular rate of firing, usually a
given number of rounds in a given number of seconds, used in firearms
competition. This is as opposed to Slow Fire, which is also a competition
term, normally measured as a given number of rounds in a given number of
minutes. I have seen skilled competitors fire Rapid Fire events using
bolt action rifles, while I have also seen selective fire rifles used in
Slow Fire events. Your meaning, therefore, was inherently unclear.

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:25:10 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Wed, 15 May 96 14:48:13 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: AOL POSTS
Lines: 8

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected]on.cc.ukans.edu”@KUHUB.CC.UKANS.EDU writes:

> plus Pitcavage and Chapman to make straw men out of each
>other.

make?? they *are*, no make about it.

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:25:11 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Wed, 15 May 96 14:48:20 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Jewish Militia in NYC
Lines: 18

In article <[email protected]>, Eric Engelmann
writes:

>I’ve seen a number of posts by him in alt.conspiracy. Can’t recall
>him ever threatening anyone.

try alt.politics.whitepower, and you’ll see some rather interesting
theories on inbreeding as a positive social function, or whatever you’ll
also see direct threats by folks directly related to hub*r’s affiliated
groups (national appliance, and so on)…but wear boots and be prepared to
throw them away after you leave.

You might also try talking to Ken McVay at the Nizkor project, they have a
fair amount of background posts accumulated from these idiots…

Best
Arlin

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:25:13 PDT 1996
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Date: Wed, 15 May 96 17:03:04 GMT
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Subject: Re: HOW MANY KINDS OF MILITIA ARE THERE???
Lines: 8

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (MMedi13720)
writes:

>That’s not a really smart approach, Chapman.

you are herewith nominated for the first monthly FIRM GRASP OF THE OBVIOUS
award πŸ™‚

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:25:14 PDT 1996
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Date: Wed, 15 May 96 17:03:17 GMT
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Subject: FACTS mark doesn’t want you to know Part I (the text)
Lines: 568

published in the Winter 1995 issue of Kansas Journal of Law and
Public Policy.

The Racist Roots of Gun Control

Copyright 1993 Clayton E. Cramer All Rights Reserved

Electronic redistribution is permitted as long as no alterations
are made to the text and this notice appears at the beginning.
Print reproduction or for profit use is not authorized without
permission from the author.

The historical record provides compelling evidence that
racism underlies gun control laws — and not in any subtle
way. Throughout much of American history, gun control was
openly stated as a method for keeping blacks and Hispanics
“in their place,” and to quiet the racial fears of whites.
This paper is intended to provide a brief summary of this
unholy alliance of gun control and racism, and to suggest
that gun control laws should be regarded as “suspect ideas,”
analogous to the “suspect classifications” theory of
discrimination already part of the American legal system.

Racist arms laws predate the establishment of the United
States. Starting in 1751, the French Black Code required
Louisiana colonists to stop any blacks, and if necessary,
beat “any black carrying any potential weapon, such as a
cane.” If a black refused to stop on demand, and was on
horseback, the colonist was authorized to “shoot to kill.”[1]
Slave possession of firearms was a necessity at times in a
frontier society, yet laws continued to be passed in an
attempt to prohibit slaves or free blacks from possessing
firearms, except under very restrictively controlled
conditions.[2] Similarly, in the sixteenth century the colony
of New Spain, terrified of black slave revolts, prohibited
all blacks, free and slave, from carrying arms.[3]

In the Haitian Revolution of the 1790s, the slave
population successfully threw off their French masters, but
the Revolution degenerated into a race war, aggravating
existing fears in the French Louisiana colony, and among
whites in the slave states of the United States. When the
first U. S. official arrived in New Orleans in 1803 to take
charge of this new American possession, the planters sought
to have the existing free black militia disarmed, and
otherwise exclude “free blacks from positions in which they
were required to bear arms,” including such non-military
functions as slave-catching crews. The New Orleans city
government also stopped whites from teaching fencing to free
blacks, and then, when free blacks sought to teach fencing,
similarly prohibited their efforts as well.[4]

It is not surprising that the first North American
English colonies, then the states of the new republic,
remained in dread fear of armed blacks, for slave revolts
against slave owners often degenerated into less selective
forms of racial warfare. The perception that free blacks
were sympathetic to the plight of their enslaved brothers,
and the dangerous example that “a Negro could be free” also
caused the slave states to pass laws designed to disarm all
blacks, both slave and free. Unlike the gun control laws
passed after the Civil War, these antebellum statutes were
for blacks alone. In Maryland, these prohibitions went so
far as to prohibit free blacks from owning dogs without a
license, and authorizing any white to kill an unlicensed dog
owned by a free black, for fear that blacks would use dogs
as weapons. Mississippi went further, and prohibited any
ownership of a dog by a black person.[5]

Understandably, restrictions on slave possession of arms
go back a very long way. While arms restrictions on free
blacks predate it, these restrictions increased dramatically
after Nat Turner’s Rebellion in 1831, a revolt that caused
the South to become increasingly irrational in its fears.[6]
Virginia’s response to Turner’s Rebellion prohibited free
blacks “to keep or carry any firelock of any kind, any
military weapon, or any powder or lead…” The existing laws
under which free blacks were occasionally licensed to
possess or carry arms was also repealed, making arms
possession completely illegal for free blacks.[7] But even
before this action by the Virginia Legislature, in the
aftermath of Turner’s Rebellion, the discovery that a free
black family possessed lead shot for use as scale weights,
without powder or weapon in which to fire it, was considered
sufficient reason for a frenzied mob to discuss summary
execution of the owner.[8] The analogy to the current
hysteria where mere possession of ammunition in some states
without a firearms license may lead to jail time, should be
obvious.

One example of the increasing fear of armed blacks is the
1834 change to the Tennessee Constitution, where Article XI,
26 of the 1796 Tennessee Constitution was revised from:
“That the freemen of this State have a right to keep and to
bear arms for their common defence,”[9] to: “That the free
white men of this State have a right to keep and to bear
arms for their common defence.”[10] [emphasis added] It is not
clear what motivated this change, other than Turner’s bloody
insurrection. The year before, the Tennessee Supreme Court
had recognized the right to bear arms as an individual
guarantee, but there is nothing in that decision that
touches on the subject of race.[11]

Other decisions during the antebellum period were
unambiguous about the importance of race. In State v.
Huntly (1843), the North Carolina Supreme Court had
recognized that there was a right to carry arms guaranteed
under the North Carolina Constitution, as long as such arms
were carried in a manner not likely to frighten people.[12]
The following year, the North Carolina Supreme Court made
one of those decisions whose full significance would not
appear until after the Civil War and passage of the
Fourteenth Amendment. An 1840 statute provided:

That if any free negro, mulatto, or free person of color,
shall wear or carry about his or her person, or keep in
his or her house, any shot gun, musket, rifle, pistol,
sword, dagger or bowie-knife, unless he or she shall have
obtained a licence therefor from the Court of Pleas and
Quarter Sessions of his or her county, within one year
preceding the wearing, keeping or carrying therefor, he
or she shall be guilty of a misdemeanor, and may be
indicted therefor.[13]

Elijah Newsom, “a free person of color,” was indicted in
Cumberland County in June of 1843 for carrying a shotgun
without a license — at the very time the North Carolina
Supreme Court was deciding Huntly. Newsom was convicted by
a jury; but the trial judge directed a not guilty verdict,
and the state appealed to the North Carolina Supreme Court.
Newsom’s attorney argued that the statute requiring free
blacks to obtain a license to “keep and bear arms” was in
violation of both the Second Amendment to the U. S.
Constitution, and the North Carolina Constitution’s similar
guarantee of a right to keep and bear arms.[14] The North
Carolina Supreme Court refused to accept that the Second
Amendment was a limitation on state laws, but had to deal
with the problem of the state constitutional guarantees,
which had been used in the Huntly decision, the year before.

The 17th article of the 1776 North Carolina Constitution
declared:

That the people have a right to bear arms, for the
defence of the State; and, as standing armies, in time
of peace, are dangerous to liberty, they ought not to
be kept up; and that the military should be kept under
strict subordination to, and governed by, the civil
power.[15]

The Court asserted that: “We cannot see that the act of
1840 is in conflict with it… The defendant is not
indicted for carrying arms in defence of the State, nor does
the act of 1840 prohibit him from so doing.”[16] But in
Huntly, the Court had acknowledged that the restrictive
language “for the defence of the State” did not preclude an
individual right.[17] The Court then attempted to justify the
necessity of this law:

Its only object is to preserve the peace and safety of
the community from being disturbed by an indiscriminate
use, on ordinary occasions, by free men of color, of
fire arms or other arms of an offensive character.
Self preservation is the first law of nations, as it is
of individuals.[18]

The North Carolina Supreme Court also sought to repudiate
the idea that free blacks were protected by the North
Carolina Constitution’s Bill of Rights by pointing out that
the Constitution excluded free blacks from voting, and
therefore free blacks were not citizens. Unlike a number of
other state constitutions with right to keep and bear arms
provisions that limited this right only to citizens,[19]
Article 17 guaranteed this right to the people — and try as
hard as they might, it was difficult to argue that a “free
person of color,” in the words of the Court, was not one of
“the people.”

It is one of the great ironies that, in much the same way
that the North Carolina Supreme Court recognized a right to
bear arms in 1843 — then a year later declared that free
blacks were not included — the Georgia Supreme Court did
likewise before the 1840s were out. The Georgia Supreme
Court found in Nunn v. State (1846) that a statute
prohibiting the sale of concealable handguns, sword-canes,
and daggers violated the Second Amendment:

The right of the whole people, old and young, men,
women and boys, and not militia only, to keep and bear
arms of every description, and not such merely as are
used by the militia, shall not be infringed, curtailed,
or broken in upon, in the smallest degree; and all of
this for the important end to be attained: the rearing
up and qualifying a well-regulated militia, so vitally
necessary to the security of a free State. Our opinion
is, that any law, State or Federal, is repugnant to the
Constitution, and void, which contravenes this right,
originally belonging to our forefathers, trampled under
foot by Charles I. and his two wicked sons and
successors, reestablished by the revolution of 1688,
conveyed to this land of liberty by the colonists, and
finally incorporated conspicuously in our own Magna
Charta! And Lexington, Concord, Camden, River Raisin,
Sandusky, and the laurel-crowned field of New Orleans,
plead eloquently for this interpretation![20]

Finally, after this paean to liberty — in a state where
much of the population remained enslaved, forbidden by law
to possess arms of any sort — the Court defined the valid
limits of laws restricting the bearing of arms:

We are of the opinion, then, that so far as the act of
1837 seeks to suppress the practice of carrying certain
weapons secretly, that it is valid, inasmuch as it does
not deprive the citizen of his natural right of self-
defence, or of his constitutional right to keep and
bear arms. But that so much of it, as contains a
prohibition against bearing arms openly, is in conflict
with the Constitution, and void…[21]

“Citizen”? Within a single page, the Court had gone from
“right of the whole people, old and young, men, women and
boys” to the much more narrowly restrictive right of a
“citizen.” The motivation for this sudden narrowing of the
right appeared two years later.

The decision Cooper and Worsham v. Savannah (1848) was
not, principally, a right to keep and bear arms case. In
1839, the city of Savannah, Georgia, in an admitted effort
“to prevent the increase of free persons of color in our
city,” had established a $100 per year tax on free blacks
moving into Savannah from other parts of Georgia. Samuel
Cooper and Hamilton Worsham, two “free persons of color,”
were convicted of failing to pay the tax, and were jailed.[22]
On appeal, counsel for Cooper and Worsham argued that the
ordinance establishing the tax was deficient in a number of
technical areas; the assertion of most interest to us is,
“In Georgia, free persons of color have constitutional
rights…” Cooper and Worsham’s counsel argued that these
rights included writ of habeas corpus, right to own real
estate, to be “subject to taxation,” “[t]hey may sue and be
sued,” and cited a number of precedents under Georgia law in
defense of their position.[23]

Justice Warner delivered the Court’s opinion, most of
which is irrelevant to the right to keep and bear arms, but
one portion shows the fundamental relationship between
citizenship, arms, and elections, and why gun control laws
were an essential part of defining blacks as “non-citizens”:
“Free persons of color have never been recognized here as
citizens; they are not entitled to bear arms, vote for
members of the legislature, or to hold any civil office.”[24]
The Georgia Supreme Court did agree that the ordinance
jailing Cooper and Worsham for non-payment was illegal, and
ordered their release, but the comments of the Court made it
clear that their brave words in Nunn v. State (1846) about
“the right of the people,” really only meant white people.

While settled parts of the South were in great fear of
armed blacks, on the frontier, the concerns about Indian
attack often forced relaxation of these rules. The 1798
Kentucky Comprehensive Act allowed slaves and free blacks on
frontier plantations “to keep and use guns, powder, shot,
and weapons, offensive and defensive.” Unlike whites,
however, a license was required for free blacks or slaves to
carry weapons.[25]

The need for blacks to carry arms for self-defense
included not only the problem of Indian attack, and the
normal criminal attacks that anyone might worry about, but
the additional hazard that free blacks were in danger of
being kidnapped and sold into slavery.[26] A number of states,
including Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Michigan, and Wisconsin,
passed laws specifically to prohibit kidnapping of free
blacks, out of concern that the federal Fugitive Slave Laws
would be used as cover for re-enslavement.[27]

The end of slavery in 1865 did not eliminate the problems
of racist gun control laws; the various Black Codes adopted
after the Civil War required blacks to obtain a license
before carrying or possessing firearms or Bowie knives;
these are sufficiently well-known that any reasonably
complete history of the Reconstruction period mentions them.
These restrictive gun laws played a part in the efforts of
the Republicans to get the Fourteenth Amendment ratified,
because it was difficult for night riders to generate the
correct level of terror in a victim who was returning fire.[28]
It does appear, however, that the requirement to treat
blacks and whites equally before the law led to the adoption
of restrictive firearms laws in the South that were equal in
the letter of the law, but unequally enforced. It is clear
that the vagrancy statutes adopted at roughly the same time,
in 1866, were intended to be used against blacks, even
though the language was race-neutral.[29]

The former states of the Confederacy, many of which had
recognized the right to carry arms openly before the Civil
War, developed a very sudden willingness to qualify that
right. One especially absurd example, and one that includes
strong evidence of the racist intentions behind gun control
laws, is Texas.

In Cockrum v. State (1859), the Texas Supreme Court had
recognized that there was a right to carry defensive arms,
and that this right was protected under both the Second
Amendment, and section 13 of the Texas Bill of Rights. The
outer limit of the state’s authority (in this case,
attempting to discourage the carrying of Bowie knives), was
that it could provide an enhanced penalty for manslaughters
committed with Bowie knives.[30] Yet, by 1872, the Texas
Supreme Court denied that there was any right to carry any
weapon for self-defense under either the state or federal
constitutions — and made no attempt to explain or justify
why the Cockrum decision was no longer valid.[31]

What caused the dramatic change? The following excerpt
>from that same decision — so offensive that no one would
dare make such an argument today — sheds some light on the
racism that apparently caused the sudden perspective change:

The law under consideration has been attacked upon the
ground that it was contrary to public policy, and
deprived the people of the necessary means of self-
defense; that it was an innovation upon the customs and
habits of the people, to which they would not peaceably
submit… We will not say to what extent the early
customs and habits of the people of this state should
be respected and accommodated, where they may come in
conflict with the ideas of intelligent and well-meaning
legislators. A portion of our system of laws, as well
as our public morality, is derived from a people the
most peculiar perhaps of any other in the history and
derivation of its own system. Spain, at different
periods of the world, was dominated over by the
Carthagenians, the Romans, the Vandals, the Snovi, the
Allani, the Visigoths, and Arabs; and to this day there
are found in the Spanish codes traces of the laws and
customs of each of these nations blended together in a
system by no means to be compared with the sound
philosophy and pure morality of the common law.[32]
[emphasis added]

This particular decision is more open than most as to its
motivations, but throughout the South during this period,
the existing precedents that recognized a right to open
carry under state constitutional provisions were being
narrowed, or simply ignored. Nor was the reasoning that led
to these changes lost on judges in the North. In 1920, the
Ohio Supreme Court upheld the conviction of a Mexican for
concealed carry of a handgun–while asleep in his own bed.
Justice Wanamaker’s scathing dissent criticized the
precedents cited by the majority in defense of this
absurdity:

I desire to give some special attention to some of the
authorities cited, supreme court decisions from
Alabama, Georgia, Arkansas, Kentucky, and one or two
inferior court decisions from New York, which are given
in support of the doctrines upheld by this court. The
southern states have very largely furnished the
precedents. It is only necessary to observe that the
race issue there has extremely intensified a decisive
purpose to entirely disarm the negro, and this policy
is evident upon reading the opinions.[33]

While not relevant to the issue of racism, Justice
Wanamaker’s closing paragraphs capture well the biting wit
and intelligence of this jurist, who was unfortunately,
outnumbered on the bench:

I hold that the laws of the state of Ohio should be so
applied and so interpreted as to favor the law-abiding
rather than the law-violating people. If this decision
shall stand as the law of Ohio, a very large percentage
of the good people of Ohio to-day are criminals,
because they are daily committing criminal acts by
having these weapons in their own homes for their own
defense. The only safe course for them to pursue,
instead of having the weapon concealed on or about
their person, or under their pillow at night, is to
hang the revolver on the wall and put below it a large
placard with these words inscribed:

“The Ohio supreme court having decided that it is a
crime to carry a concealed weapon on one’s person in
one’s home, even in one’s bed or bunk, this weapon is
hung upon the wall that you may see it, and before you
commit any burglary or assault, please, Mr. Burglar,
hand me my gun.”[34]

There are other examples of remarkable honesty from the
state supreme courts on this subject, of which the finest is
probably Florida Supreme Court Justice Buford’s concurring
opinion in Watson v. Stone (1941), in which a conviction for
carrying a handgun without a permit was overturned, because
the handgun was in the glove compartment of a car:

I know something of the history of this legislation.
The original Act of 1893 was passed when there was a
great influx of negro laborers in this State drawn here
for the purpose of working in turpentine and lumber
camps. The same condition existed when the Act was
amended in 1901 and the Act was passed for the purpose
of disarming the negro laborers and to thereby reduce
the unlawful homicides that were prevalent in
turpentine and saw-mill camps and to give the white
citizens in sparsely settled areas a better feeling of
security. The statute was never intended to be applied
to the white population and in practice has never been
so applied.[35]

Today is not 1893, and when proponents of restrictive gun
control insist that their motivations are color-blind, there
is a possibility that they are telling the truth.
Nonetheless, there are some rather interesting questions
that should be asked today. The most obvious question is,
“Why should a police chief or sheriff have any discretion in
issuing a concealed handgun permit?” Here in California,
even the state legislature’s research arm–hardly a nest of
pro-gunners–has admitted that the vast majority of permits
to carry concealed handguns in California are issued to
white males.[36] Even if overt racism is not an issue, an
official may simply have more empathy with an applicant of a
similar cultural background, and consequently be more able
to relate to the applicant’s concerns. As my wife pointedly
reminded a police official when we applied for concealed
weapon permits, “If more police chiefs were women, a lot
more women would get permits, and be able to defend
themselves from rapists.”

Gun control advocates today are not so foolish as to
openly promote racist laws, and so the question might be
asked what relevance the racist past of gun control laws
has. One concern is that the motivations for disarming
blacks in the past are really not so different from the
motivations for disarming law-abiding citizens today. In the
last century, the official rhetoric in support of such laws
was that “they” were too violent, too untrustworthy, to be
allowed weapons. Today, the same elitist rhetoric regards
law-abiding Americans in the same way, as child-like
creatures in need of guidance from the government. In the
last century, while never openly admitted, one of the goals
of disarming blacks was to make them more willing to accept
various forms of economic oppression, including the
sharecropping system, in which free blacks were reduced to
an economic state not dramatically superior to the
conditions of slavery.

In the seventeenth century, the aristocratic power
structure of colonial Virginia found itself confronting a
similar challenge from lower class whites. These poor
whites resented how the men who controlled the government
used that power to concentrate wealth into a small number of
hands. These wealthy feeders at the government trough would
have disarmed poor whites if they could, but the threat of
both Indian and pirate attack made this impractical; for all
white men “were armed and had to be armed…” Instead,
blacks, who had occupied a poorly defined status between
indentured servant and slave, were reduced to hereditary
chattel slavery, so that poor whites could be economically
advantaged, without the upper class having to give up its
privileges.[37]

Today, the forces that push for gun control seem to be
heavily (though not exclusively) allied with political
factions that are committed to dramatic increases in
taxation on the middle class. While it would be hyperbole
to compare higher taxes on the middle class to the suffering
and deprivation of sharecropping or slavery, the analogy of
disarming those whom you wish to economically disadvantage,
has a certain worrisome validity to it.

Another point to consider is that in the American legal
system, certain classifications of governmental
discrimination are considered constitutionally suspect, and
these “suspect classifications” (usually considered to be
race and religion) come to a court hearing under a strong
presumption of invalidity. The reason for these “suspect
classifications” is because of the long history of
governmental discrimination based on these classifications,
and because these classifications often impinge on
fundamental rights.[38]

In much the same way, gun control has historically been a
tool of racism, and associated with racist attitudes about
black violence. Similarly, many gun control laws impinge on
that most fundamental of rights: self-defense. Racism is so
intimately tied to the history of gun control in America
that we should regard gun control aimed at law-abiding
people as a “suspect idea,” and require that the courts use
the same demanding standards when reviewing the
constitutionality of a gun control law, that they would use
with respect to a law that discriminated based on race.

[ ends ]

Clayton E. Cramer is a software engineer with a
telecommunications manufacturer in Northern California. His
first book, By The Dim And Flaring Lamps: The Civil War
Diary of Samuel McIlvaine, was published in 1990. For The
Defense of Themselves And The State: The Original Intent &
Judicial Interpretation of the Right To Keep And Bear Arms
will be published by Greenwood/Praeger Press in 1994.

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:25:17 PDT 1996
Article: 18723 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Wed, 15 May 96 20:03:17 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Chechan Militia
Lines: 15

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (JHistorian)
writes:

>Yes, of course — such groups as the Christian White Patriots (North
>Carolina) don’t adhere to any type of exclusivity based on religion
>(“Christian”) or race (“White”), do they?
>
>They just picked those words because they … er, ah … sounded nice,
>ddn’t they?

There you go again Jim. Attempting to smear the entire movement with the
actions of a minute fringe group. Of course you would find that
impossible with a major organization like the Ohio Unorganized, but then
that’s why you go at it this way, isn’t it?

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:25:18 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Wed, 15 May 96 20:03:25 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Christian Identity
Lines: 23

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (JHistorian)
writes:

>hus spake [email protected] (Scott Alan Malcomson):
>
>* Gee, yet more proof that anti-Semitism ISN’T a Patriot
>* movement platform…
>
>”Fact is, the patriot movement HAS a lunatic fringe that goes by
>anti-Semitism, …..”
> –Scott Alan Malcomson (same day)
>

C’mon Jim, is it that you can only think in black and white? Last I
looked you are an academic. A couple of academics published a racist book
called ‘THE BELL CURVE’ a year or so ago, and another, British racist
academic just had a racist book called THE G FACTOR pulled by the
publisher following protest. Let’s see, their racists, and their
academics, you’re an academic, therefore you must be a racist. Oh NOW I
see how this works! Hey, maybe you and louie beam of the national
appliance could get together and chat – he just started posting here for
no apparent reason too.

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:25:19 PDT 1996
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Date: Wed, 15 May 96 17:03:55 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: I just read about Ruby Ridge. American militias have my sympathy
Lines: 32

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:

>To suggest that they were “direct linear antecedents of modern gun
control”
>you
>would have to prove that a) the laws appeared for the same reason (but
they
>did
>not); b) the laws were phrased the same way (but they were not); c) the
later
>
>ones stemmed from the earlier ones (they did not); and d) people referred
to
>the earlier ones when making the later ones (they did not).

ah, mark, it’s not often I get to nail you with two gotchas in one
message…to correct all of the above, see Cramer’s THE RACIST ROOTS OF
GUN CONTROL (authorized for electronic redistribution) which I have
reposted in two parts as FACTS MARK DOESN’T WANT YOU TO KNOW. This is an
html file.

>You are using designations which exist today, but did not exist in the
1920s.

This is simply not true, mark. I suggest you talk to someone who knows
the history of high powered rifle competition shooting, or for that
matter, you might talk to someone with a background in military history,
which is where the terms rapid fire and slow fire were borrowed from.

nice try, no sale.

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:25:21 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Wed, 15 May 96 17:03:44 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Facts mark doesn’t want you to know Part II (the references)
Lines: 114

Clayton E. Cramer is a software engineer with a
telecommunications manufacturer in Northern California. His
first book, By The Dim And Flaring Lamps: The Civil War
Diary of Samuel McIlvaine, was published in 1990. For The
Defense of Themselves And The State: The Original Intent &
Judicial Interpretation of the Right To Keep And Bear Arms
will be published by Greenwood/Praeger Press in 1994.

NOTES

Thomas N. Ingersoll, “Free Blacks in a Slave Society:
New Orleans, 1718-1812”, William And Mary Quarterly, 48:2
[April, 1991], 178-79.
Daniel H. Usner, Jr., Indians, Settlers, & Slaves in a
Frontier Exchange Economy: The Lower Mississippi Valley
Before 1783, (Chapel Hill, N.C.: University of North
Carolina Press, 1992), 139, 165, 187.
Michael C. Meyer and William L. Sherman, The Course of
Mexican History, 4th ed., (New York, Oxford University
Press: 1991), 216.
Ingersoll, 192-200. Benjamin Quarles, The Negro in the
Making of America, 3rd ed., (New York, Macmillan Publishing:
1987), 81.
Theodore Brantner Wilson, The Black Codes of the South
(University of Alabama Press: 1965), 26-30.
Stanley Elkins, Slavery, (Chicago, University of
Chicago Press: 1968), 220.
Eric Foner, ed., Nat Turner, (Englewood Cliffs, N.J.,
Prentice-Hall: 1971), 115.
Harriet Jacobs [Linda Brant], Incidents in the Life of
a Slave Girl, (Boston: 1861), in Henry Louis Gates, Jr.,
ed., The Classic Slave Narratives, (New York, Penguin Books:
1987), 395-396.
Francis Newton Thorpe, The Federal and State
Constitutions, Colonial Charters, and Other Organic Laws of
the States, Territories, and Colonies Now or Heretofore
Forming The United States of America, (Washington,
Government Printing Office: 1909), reprinted (Grosse Pointe,
Mich., Scholarly Press: n.d.), 6:3424.
Thorpe, 6:3428.
Simpson v. State, 5 Yerg. 356 (Tenn. 1833).
State v. Huntly, 3 Iredell 418, 422, 423 (N.C. 1843).
State v. Newsom, 5 Iredell 181, 27 N.C. 250 (1844).
State v. Newsom, 5 Iredell 181, 27 N.C. 250, 251
(1844).
Thorpe, 5:2788.
State v. Newsom, 5 Iredell 181, 27 N.C. 250, 254
(1844).
State v. Huntly, 3 Iredell 418, 422 (N.C. 1843).
State v. Newsom, 5 Iredell 181, 27 N.C. 250, 254
(1844).
Early state constitutions limiting the right to bear
arms to citizens: Connecticut (1818), Kentucky (1792 &
1799), Maine (1819), Mississippi (1817), Pennsylvania (1790
— but not the 1776 constitution), Republic of Texas (1838),
State of Texas (1845).
Nunn v. State, 1 Ga. 243, 250, 251 (1846).
Nunn v. State, 1 Ga. 243, 250, 251 (1846).
Cooper and Worsham v. Savannah, 4 Ga. 68, 69 (1848).
Cooper and Worsham v. Savannah, 4 Ga. 68, 70, 71
(1848).
Cooper and Worsham v. Savannah, 4 Ga. 68, 72 (1848).
Juliet E. K. Walker, Free Frank: A Black Pioneer on the
Antebellum Frontier, (Lexington, KY, University Press of
Kentucky: 1983), 21. This is an inspiring biography of a
slave who, through hard work moonlighting in the production
of saltpeter (a basic ingredient of black powder) and land
surveying, saved enough money to buy his wife, himself, and
eventually all of his children and grandchildren out of
slavery — while fighting against oppressive laws and
vigorous racism. Most impressive of all, is that he did it
without ever learning to read or write.
Walker, 73.
Stephen Middleton, The Black Laws in the Old Northwest:
A Documentary History, (Westport, Conn., Greenwood Press:
1993), 27-32, 227-240, 309-314, 353-357, 403-404.
Michael Les Benedict, The Fruits of Victory:
Alternatives to Restoring the Union, 1865-1877, (New York,
J.B. Lippincott Co.: 1975), 87. Francis L. Broderick,
Reconstruction and the American Negro, 1865-1900, (London,
Macmillan Co.: 1969), 21. Dan T. Carter, When The War Was
Over: The Failure of Self-Reconstruction in the South, 1865-
1867, (Baton Rouge, Louisiana State University Press: 1985),
219-221. Eric Foner, Reconstruction, (New York, Harper &
Row: 1988), 258-259.
Foner, Reconstruction, 200-201.
Cockrum v. State, 24 Tex. 394, 401, 402, 403 (1859).
English v. State, 35 Tex. 473, 475 (1872).
English v. State, 35 Tex. 473, 479, 480 (1872).
State v. Nieto, 101 Ohio St. 409, 430, 130 N.E. 663
(1920).
State v. Nieto, 101 Ohio St. 409, 436, 130 N.E. 663
(1920).
Watson v. Stone, 4 So.2d 700, 703 (Fla. 1941).
Assembly Office of Research, Smoking Gun: The Case For
Concealed Weapon Permit Reform, (Sacramento, State of
California: 1986), 5.
Edmund S. Morgan, “Slavery and Freedom: The American
Paradox,” in Stanley N. Katz, John M. Murrin, and Douglas
Greenberg, ed., Colonial America: Essays in Politics and
Social Development, 4th ed., (New York: McGraw-Hill, Inc,
1993), 280.
Thomas G. Walker, “Suspect Classifications”, Oxford
Companion to the Supreme Court of the United States, (New
York, Oxford University Press: 1992), 848.

Express permission of the author was secured in creating and making
available on the Web this HTML-formatted copy.

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:25:22 PDT 1996
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Date: Wed, 15 May 96 17:04:07 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: I just read about Ruby Ridge. American militias have my sympathy
Lines: 15

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:

>Is it a matter for “debate”? The public was aroused by the weapons in
the
>hands of high-profile criminals and mobs; this prompted the first serious
>calls
>for gun control on the national level.
>
>

The public was aroused by a combination of media hype, and politicians
seeking to cover their proverbial rear ends about not being able to
control criminals…the same thing that’s happening today.

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:25:23 PDT 1996
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Date: Wed, 15 May 96 19:35:33 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Revolutionary Majorities
Lines: 19

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Barrister) writes:

>Both the ADL and Southern Poverty Law Center are quite biased in their
>”studies” and reporting on the militia movement. I commend you for
>citing your source so the reader can consider that when giving
>credence (or not) to the allegation; however, if this is the only
>source for that particular fact, then I’d say we don’t really have
>much to rely upon.

As far as I can tell, SPLC is a giant fundraising scam that makes it’s
money off liberals. That being said, and taking into account the fact
that the ADL is *seriously myopic* when dealing with the Constitutional
Militias, they (ADL) still do have a reasonably good handle on the more
active members of white supremacist organizations in North America. To
the best of my ability to determine, Beam is a supremacist, and deserves
only the scorn and derision of our movement.

Arlin H. Adams

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:25:24 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Thu, 16 May 96 2:03:06 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: I just read about Ruby Ridge. American militias have my sympathy
Lines: 16

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:

>
>Whether there was merit or not to the public concern is not an issue. I
was
>not discussing the pros and cons of the gun control movement but merely
its
>modern origins.
>
>

merit is always the issue. and understanding the origins of anything is
impossible without a knowledge of the motivations behind the actions
taken.

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:25:25 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Thu, 16 May 96 2:18:12 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: I just read about Ruby Ridge. American militias have my sympathy
Lines: 34

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:

>
>Not only does it not happen often, but it doesn’t happen this time
either.
>Although there are some errors of interpretation and/or fact in Cramer’s
>article, the facts in it are basically sound, and do not conflict with a
>single
>thing I have said here, so far as I can tell.

Then you either didn’t read it, or didn’t comprehend it. Gun Control in
the United States has never been about controling crime, it’s been about
oppressing people. Next time, try paying attention to what you read,
rather than simply assuming you already know what it says.

>>>You are using designations which exist today, but did not exist in the
>>1920s.
>>
>>This is simply not true, mark. I suggest you talk to someone who knows
>>the history of high powered rifle competition shooting, or for that
>>matter, you might talk to someone with a background in military history,
>>which is where the terms rapid fire and slow fire were borrowed from.
>
>Ho hum. I guess I might talk to myself then. Stick to your own area of
>expertise, whatever the heck it is.

Ah but you see, I am dealing in one of my areas of expertise…my ballpark
markie, and if you want to make nonstandard use of terminology then *you*
are the one who has to document it, not I. I’m pretty sure I know where
you got your misinterpretation concerning the use of rapid fire, but I
want to see you admit it in front of everybody….

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Date: Thu, 16 May 96 2:18:23 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: I just read about Ruby Ridge. American militias have my sympathy
Lines: 18

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (David L Evens)
writes:

>
>And a certain ammount of conspiracy from the FBI, which was under mafia
>control at that time. (In fact, the FBI remained under mafia control
>right into the 1970’s, up until the time Hoover finaly ceased heading the

>FBI, and possibly continued for a period beyond then, as well.)

Hi David,

I’ve seen no documentation on this – can you recommend something to read
on the subject?

Best
Arlin

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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Thu, 16 May 96 2:33:25 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: bernard getz
Lines: 19

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Alan Gore)
writes:

>I just want hem all dead. Their very existence defiles our society.
>Why don’t you militia people give up trampling the back-country
>underbrush stalking imaginary black helicopters? instead, come down
>into our cities and make it hell on Earth for the criminals. Then the
>country would regard you as folk heroes, just as it has Bernhard
>Goetz.

Yo! Alan! militias are *local* organizations…why don’t you form your
own in YOUR neighborhood…that’s how this’ll get cleaned up – when the
people who live there decide to take responsibility for their own
communities.

Arlin Adams

p.s. that’s one *great* psuedonym, by the way πŸ™‚

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Date: Thu, 16 May 96 3:18:49 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Helloooooo in there….
Lines: 12

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:

>The Federal Government, which stems from the people, does not wish to
wage a
>civil war against them.
>
>

boowahahahahaha, *whew* oh mark, you should warn people before you start
posting jokes!

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militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Thu, 16 May 96 3:33:24 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Pitcavage on Patriot Movement
Lines: 73

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (JHistorian)
writes:

>* Not to worry David, the morning after the revolution mark will *still*
>* besitting at his computer attempting to convince people we don’t stand
>* a chance πŸ™‚
>*
>That may be true, Arlin.
>
>On the other hand, a very large number of your militiaboy “we’s” will be
>dead.

undoubtedly. There will be an unfortunate number of folks who will, in
the initial stages, attempt to go toe to toe with the fe(de)ral
blackshirts…rough estimate would be somewhere between 60-80% casualties
for those units in the first two weeks of such a confrontation.
Fortunately, they will also be atritting the blackshirts at the same time.
While this is occuring, the rest of us will be preparing for the shadow
war which must inevitably follow.

If you want to know how *that* will go, Jim, read Mao, Che, and Giap – we
do.

>Make no mistake about it, if the militaboys ever try to cork off their
>little “inevitable war,” they–and you–will find out that the “sheeple”
>are, in fact, wolves in sheep’s clothing.

doubtful. look at the basic numbers – there are less than 2.4 million law
enforcement officers in the entire U.S. and that’s counting EVERYBODY –
federal, state, and local. Given that there would be an inevitable
attempt at firearms confiscation concurrent with any such uprising all we
need to do is get 10 percent of the 70 million firearms owners to
*passively* resist – no shooting, just force the government to arrest and
process them, and we’ve already tied up every single LEO more than twice.
Except of course, that wont be possible, since you and yours will still be
demanding police protection.

Lest you fantasize that the military will intervene, think again. First
of all, the only time such a general confrontation would occur is if the
militias agreed that the situation had deteriorated to the point that
there was no Constitutional basis for the current situation. Given that
to be the case, we would be certain to publicize the nature of our
grievances in such a way as to communicate our sole desire of returning to
*Constitutional* government -remember the oath of enlistment / oath of
office Jim? ‘defend the Constitution of the United States’…that part.
Combine that with the fact that, as long as SFU did not pull out, the
fe(de)ral government could not depend on *any* of it’s special operations
units to function against us, AND the number of sympathizers within the
military (all of who will be encouraged to “Just Say No”)…and you can
have no reasonable expectation of military intervention in that sort of
situation.

So the sheeple will either sit in their living rooms watching CNN and
being thankful that whatever is happening is going on some place else, or
they will go out and protest…of course the government will view any such
protest as support for us, so after the first two or three violent
repressions, I shouldn’t expect there’ll be much more of that, either.

>
>But tell us again how, when the entire Confederacy couldn’t beat the
>national government, an amorphous, un-coordinated, and leaderless group
of
>self-styled “militias” are going to do so.

Just did. The point of all this is that, the reason such an uprising has
not occured so far has not been that it could not – it has simply not been
neccesary. We CAN, we simply have chosen not to, up to this point. Many
of us are working very hard to turn this country around so we wont *have
to* do this, but in the end, if it comes down to it, do not doubt for an
instant that we can, and will. Questions?

Arlin H. Adams

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militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Thu, 16 May 96 3:48:03 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Strategy and tactics for militia civil war
Lines: 14

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (JHistorian)
writes:

>If the militiaboys cork off their little “inevitable war,” do you think
>the French will send the same stuff again?

no, but watch the Chinese, Iranians, Iraqis Serbs, Syrians, and every
other tinpot dictatorship all decide that the US government might *just*
be a little too preoccupied to notice them, and start pushing the limits.
With all the downsizing of the last few years, the US military will be
busier than a one legged man in an ass-kicking contest….

Next question.

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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Thu, 16 May 96 4:03:04 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: A Call for Militiaman Assembly
Lines: 13

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Janet
L. Littler) writes:

> Besides, the name of
>the game is to clean the mess without a civil war if that is possible,
>not start one.

Here! Here! point for Janet! Problem is, that BOTH sides have to want to
clean up the mess…right now, it would appear that a majority of the
other side, is still denying there even *is* a mess.

Arlin

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:25:30 PDT 1996
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Date: Thu, 16 May 96 4:18:07 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: A tiny chip for you
Lines: 9

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Gen. JC
Christian) writes:

>but I suspect that they were some kind of transmitter that broadcast my
>brainwaves to the Red Chinese.

Careful tim, I think you just admitted complicity in the tien an men
massacre πŸ™‚

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:25:31 PDT 1996
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Date: Thu, 16 May 96 2:48:39 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Electoral Process???
Lines: 12

In article <[email protected]>, Richard Glen Cheek
writes:

>. Why is it that the common
>law courts, ‘freemen’, and neo-nazis get far more press than straight
>militia types? I get the feeling it’s ’cause they prefer to think of the
>militias this way. It makes it easier to dehumanise them, then disregard
>the militias arguments, complaints, or concerns.

Right on the money Richard! If they did otherwise they’d run a serious
risk of the public starting to listen to what we have to say.

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:25:32 PDT 1996
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Date: Thu, 16 May 96 3:03:10 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: All Right, Contestants, Come on Down!
Lines: 9

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:

>5. Al Sharpton

No, I don’t think he’s a fed, but if he ever DOES show up, we need to make
sure he get’s introduced to louie of the national appliance…the two of
them deserve each other.

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:25:32 PDT 1996
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militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Thu, 16 May 96 11:34:19 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: no more crosses
Lines: 15

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Allen Pete)
writes:

>As I understand it, Unitarians aren’t Christians. There is the old story
>of a Unitarian prayer going “To God, if there is a God, In Heaven, if
>there is a Heaver, etc”

Uh, Allen, there is such a thing as UU/C which stands for
Unitarian-Universalist/Christian…trust me, any denomination that
includes us the regular Unitarian-Universalists (UU) and the pagans (UU/P)
is NEVER dull. πŸ™‚

Arlin
who just happens to be a UU/C

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:25:33 PDT 1996
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Date: Thu, 16 May 96 11:33:28 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Chechan Militia
Lines: 67

APPOLOGIES TO MY FRIENDS IN TEXAS, ESPECIALLY 1TLI, THE FOLLOWING EXAMPLES
INVOLVING YOUR FAIR STATE ARE USED ONLY FOR PURPOSES OF EDUCATIONAL
ILLUSTRATION WITH JIM.

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (JHistorian)
writes:

>No, actually I would “go at it” by pointing out FIRST that you, yourself,
>admit that there is racism, bigotry, and anti-semitism in the so-called
>militia movement;

As there is most places in our society, no more nor less. I do NOT brand
American society as racist any more than I do the militias…nor any less,
for that matter.

>and SECONDLY by pointing out that the militias’ use of the terms
>”Sovereign Citizen” or “Preamble Citizen” as opposed, and superior, to
>”14th Amendment citizen” (with little “c” as opposed to capital “C”) is
>nothing more than sugar-coated racism, either willingly or unwittingly;

hmm, nobody I know or associate with uses those terms…there’s a small
number of folks in the midwest and west who use the term 14th Amendment
Citizen in a derogatory way, and those I will not defend. We are ALL 14th
Amendment Citizens. As for the use of Sovereign Citizen, the most common
usage I’ve seen has been to delineate the fact that rights flow FROM the
individual TO the government, and not vice versa. This term has been
misused by the same strange folks who use the term 14th Amendment Citizen,
but that includes exactly NO one that I know. Personally I’ve neither
ever seen nor heard the term Preamble Citizen…where did you come by it?

Now let’s look at Texas, which is I believe where you live: You have the
klan, you have elements of AN, there’s a definite CI presence, you even
have folks like Otwell’s radical racist anti-abortion folks down in the
southern part of the state. Is it reasonable then to blame all Texans for
these things? Of course not. neither is it reasonable to blame the
entire militia movement for the idiocies of the few.

>and THIRDLY by pointing out that the Christian White Patriots are NOT THE
>SOLE EXAMPLE of racism by some group purporting itself to be a “militia”;

even as the Texas klan is not the sole example of racism by some group
purporting itself to be Texans.

>and FOURTHLY by pointing out that the Texas Emergency Reserve of the Klan
>purported to be a so-called constitutional militia;

only by the klan. The TER was in NO WAY a Constitutional Militia, in that
it specifically averred the Constitution. Hmm, come to think of it, isn’t
there a CSA presence down there – and don’t *they* claim to be Texans too?

>and FIFTHLY by pointing out that some 30 or so other groups which also
>purport to be militias also use the moniker “White” in their name.

okay, now there’s a number – 30. Let’s see, if I recall correctly, in the
testimony which revealed the compromise of the Tri-States communication
center, there was mention of the fact that they had identified about 900
militia units from message traffic. Okay, I’ll settle for admitting that
3% of all militia members are racist…what do you think the percentage is
for Texans?

>I can continue, if you like.

So can I, if you like.

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:25:34 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Thu, 16 May 96 11:33:51 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Christian Identity
Lines: 33

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (JHistorian)
writes:

>However, unlike your statements viz the “patriot movement,” I am not
>stupid enough to say that racism ISN’T a platform in academia — it’s not
>a very well-subscribed platform, but it is, nonetheless, a platform with
>SOME people in academia (as witnessed by those you reference).
>
>However, you seem not capable of admitting–in any manner
whatsoever–that
>the same holds true about the militias; to whit:
>
>> …. anti-Semitism ISN’T a Patriot movement platform…

The truth is, Jim, that it ISN’T part of the Patriot platform, although
there is a tiny fringe element which has repeatedly pushed to make it
such…’course every time they push they find themselves talking to the
wind, and nobody else, but they do keep on talking…see my previous
response to your previous response in the Chechen militia thread for a bit
more on that.

>* Oh NOW I see how this works!
>
>No, you apparently “see” very little. You also apparently do not
“reason”
>with very much of the grey matter inside your skull. The above problems
>were not a difficult to reason one’s way through; one wonders why you
were
>apparently not capable of doing so.

Jim, I’m simply applying the same logic you are…only from my
perspective.

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:25:35 PDT 1996
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Date: Thu, 16 May 96 11:48:17 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: www.jollyroger.com MISSION SACRED DIVINITY: TOP SECRET. LIBERALS KEEP OUT…
Lines: 5

Elliot,

next time, drink your beer AFTER you get done using the terminal in the
student union.

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:25:36 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Thu, 16 May 96 13:18:04 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: The Miracle of the Liberal Mind
Lines: 36

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (John
Dulaney) writes:

> The result of all this tenuous salivation is to give the public a
>test of readiness before allowing them a vote.
>
> Ah, ha! An idea!
>
> All voters….
>
> must be able to read, reason, solve simple puzzles of logic and
>society, understand our system of government, the voting records of
>candidates, their platforms, their record of lying, have at-the-ready
>candidates histories, understand the currents events and issues of the
day
>and be unsullied by the feral and somatic germs of Liberal Thought.
>
> If this means only an intelligent, well-read and able electorate
>is left to make the practical decisions the Business of Governing
demands,
>I’ll drink to that.

Hi John,

Every time a Poll Test has been instituted it has *inevitably* become a
method for the power mongers to prevent those who oppose them from voting.
The trick in a democracy is accomplishing something positive based on the
votes of everyone, not just those who agree with us. I would submit that
the US, in it’s current form, is actually much too large for this to be
possible, but that’s just my opinion. In any case, I have to vote ‘no’ on
this one – not because I would not like to see the development of a more
informed electorate; but because history shows us that a Poll Test does
not accomplish this goal.

Arlin Adams

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militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Thu, 16 May 96 13:48:05 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: I just read about Ruby Ridge. American militias have my sympathy
Lines: 12

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (JHistorian)
writes:

>
>Mark’s argument, short of narrowly defining “gun control” to mean the
>”control of automatic weaponry only,” has little merit.
>

For the second time in one 24 hour period, I find myself in agreement with
you. We need to be careful about this stuff Jim, people could start
talking….:-)

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Date: Thu, 16 May 96 11:34:45 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Revolutionary Majorities
Lines: 11

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (JHistorian)
writes:

>* the best of my ability to determine, Beam is a supremacist,
>* and deserves only the scorn and derision of our movement.
>
>Shouldn’t be too hard to determine — he himself has said that he is.

Thankyou Jim, but I was trying to force our mysterious Canadian poster to
decloak…

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Date: Thu, 16 May 96 14:48:05 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: I just read about Ruby Ridge. American militias have my sympathy
Lines: 20

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:

>
>Ho hum. I originally posted four or so requirements needed to prove that
the
>
>Reconstruction era Southern state laws were somehow related to the first
push
>
>for gun control at the federal level in the 1920s and 1930s, and you
utterly
>failed to meet those requirements.
>
>

I don’t play to your strawmen mark. the point here is to show up your
biases and thereby discredit you, NOT to play by your rules. nice try, no
sale.

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:25:39 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Thu, 16 May 96 13:48:39 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: “Worst Nightmare”
Lines: 28

In article <832214893$21319[email protected]>, [email protected] (JHistorian)
writes:

>Yet, you *DO* perceive mark’s statement that he is collecting information
>on the “militias” as being a threat.
>
>Even though collecting information on what one is writing about is
>fundamental to the task of the historian, and Mark is both an historian
>and writing a book on the “militias.”

Look at it from my perspective, Jim:

he is openly hostile to the entire movement.
he concentrates on the fringe elements and then claims that they represent
the entire movement, despite numerous refutations (which he simply
ignores).
he poses as an expert on us, when he appears to know very little about the
mainstream militias; and uses that ‘expert’ position to spread his beliefs
to the media.
he slanders the entire movement in a global forum (this one) by repeated
attempts to denegrate who we are and what we stand for.

It’s the old ‘walks like a duck/talks like a duck’ routine – he acts like
a threat, therefore I must assume that he is, until it is proven
otherwise. Such proof has not yet been forthcoming.

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:25:39 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Thu, 16 May 96 23:03:17 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Feds Preparing For Nationwide Gun Sweeps?
Lines: 17

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Edward
W. Gardner) writes:

>It is ileagal for the BATF to keep ANY records on us and the guns we own,

>except for those covered under the NFA (full auto’s, short barrelled
>shotguns).
>
>

That was codified in FOPA (thats the Firearms Owners Protection Act).
The way this is being gotten around in the Mass. case is that the state
*hired* the atf to convert the records *for the state*. It *is* legal
under Mass. state law for the *state* to keep records, you see. Now atf
*claims* that they are not keeping any copies of the stuff that they are
processing, but somehow I find that just a bit difficult to believe.

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:25:40 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Fri, 17 May 96 0:33:04 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Helloooooo in there….
Lines: 13

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:

>>boowahahahahaha, *whew* oh mark, you should warn people before you start
>>posting jokes!
>
>You see why people fear the militia movement now? You have no sense of
>reality.

ah well, then I guess everyone should be greatful that we *do* have a
sense of humor…

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:25:41 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Fri, 17 May 96 1:49:31 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Pitcavage on Patriot Movement
Lines: 27

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:

>In article <[email protected]>, AHABIZ wrote:
>>
>>In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected]
>>(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:
>>
>>>So, when do you propose to start your revolution against the
government?
>>
>>Why, mark, I didn’t say *we* were going to start it. When do you plan
to
>>start openly oppressing political dissidents?
>
>You conveniently left out the previous statement, in which your meaning
was
>clear.

My previous sentence made reference to “the morning after the revolution”.
I neither stated nor implied who started the fight, only that we would
successfully conclude it, once it *was* started. What irks you, I think
is that I responded to you with a question in the same vein as your own –
accusatory. In other words, mark, I just gave you back what you gave me,
only from *my* perspective, instead of yours.

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:25:42 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Fri, 17 May 96 7:49:27 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: I just read about Ruby Ridge. American militias have my sympathy
Lines: 12

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:

>Well, you failed at that, too. You merely posted something irrelevant to
the
>discussion.

I guess we’ll just have to wait and see whether it was relevant…I
obviously think it was, and you obviously think it wasn’t…guess we’ll
have to see what others have to say about it.

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:25:42 PDT 1996
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Date: Fri, 17 May 96 3:18:03 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: NWO expanding with Poland
Lines: 10

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (JBrolin546)
writes:

>
>The EU is the European subsidiary of the Global 2000 iniative:
>
>Germany’s Greens and their Polish counterparts are joining forces.

yet another rejected X-Files script somehow wanders into the newsgroup….

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:25:43 PDT 1996
Article: 18960 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Fri, 17 May 96 11:48:03 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Agents, pitman, assassination and war
Lines: 71

There you go again mikey,

>People who, in a war, gather information on the sizes, types
>and locations of military forces and provide that information
>to the enemy of those forces in any war are ALSO the enemy of
>those forces and generally must be killed, if possible.

Cheez, I thought I mentioned that you needed to stop getting your military
theory from paperback novels. If you had any real knowledge of military
security practices, you would realize that neutralization of hostile
intelligence collectors RARELY involves killing anyone. The reason for
this is quite simple: if you kill one off, another will replace them, and
that second one will be much harder to locate…thus much more effective
against you. The point in these situations is to prevent the hostile
collector from reporting *accurate* information, thus preventing your
enemies from making accurate predictions concerning your future
activities. That’s ALL. Probably a moot point in your case though, since
all you do is talk.

> They
>might surrender, as they are merely scouts, unless they have
>disguised themselves as civilians or your soldiers to evade
>detection, in which case they are spies and merit execution
>without regard to surrender.

so instead of being able to turn them (i.e. get them to feed their bosses
the information you *want* them to have), you have a bunch of dead bodies
and the sure knowledge that another group of spies has already begun
infiltration into your area. Brilliant.

> Anyone who acts on his own
>under the rules of war is at best an army of one, and more likely
>just a murderer.

Gee, where have I heard that before? man it’s deja vu all over again.

> Being part of the
>government may or may not be a forfeiture of the right to live,

it is not.

> In that case he would
>be an enemy agent and might be sniped the same as any soldier
>walking along a road – until he surrenders.

Hmm, unless YOU are planning on shooting him yourself mikey, you shouldn’t
be making statements like this. I’m not, none of the folks I know in Ohio
are, so I guess that leaves you. Of course that’s predicated on the
concept that you are capable of walking your talk – something of which
everyone here is rightly skeptical. Personally, I don’t think mark has
anything to worry about from your statements.

>Let me also state that some forces might legitimately consider
>themselves currently in a state of war.

Nope, and you know no sane person in this newsgroup supports that
supposition either.

> Let
>government employees and agents realize that they can and will
>be associated with the other members of that organization and its
>stated, universal goals.

Only by you. look mikey, you can continue to post this anarchistic
nonsense just as long as you like, I’m still going to take it apart on you
every time I feel like it…the only thing you can do about it is leave.

Arlin H. Adams

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:25:44 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Fri, 17 May 96 18:48:03 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Agents, pitman, assassination and war
Lines: 20

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (RYK an1) writes:

>Do you think that if a rebellion started and we lost, that Pitcavage or
>any of the others wouldn’t leap for joy at the though of watching us hang
>for our ‘crimes”.

Sorry, Lance, but the problem here is to *avoid* becoming like them. Just
because *they* would act this way doesn’t mean we have to do the same.

>A few of them have said that they will be happy, to watch us hang. Same
>logic applies.

Now this is just me, but I am not comfortable about the concept of justice
without mercy. There is too much of that now.

Best
Arlin

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:25:44 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Fri, 17 May 96 21:48:47 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Chechan Militia
Lines: 8

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (David L Evens)
writes:

>Don’t forget, Jim works for a profoundly racist organisation.

Hunh? you lost me on that one David…I thought he was an academic down
Texas-way

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:25:45 PDT 1996
Article: 19010 of misc.activism.militia
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militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Fri, 17 May 96 19:18:28 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Pitcavage on Patriot Movement
Lines: 79

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (JHistorian)
writes:

>>If you want to know how *that* will go, Jim, read Mao, Che,
>>and Giap – we do.
>
>Already have. With the exception of Vo Nguyen Giap’s book, the others
>were “de jure” reading during the 60s, remember?

yep, now, do you think you can get *mark* to read them? πŸ™‚

>>doubtful. look at the basic numbers – there are less than 2.4 million
>law
>>enforcement officers in the entire U.S. and that’s counting EVERYBODY
>>- federal, state, and local. Given that there would be an inevitable
>>attempt at firearms confiscation concurrent with any such uprising all
we
>>need to do is get 10 percent of the 70 million firearms owners to
>
>Counting chickens before they hatch is rather risky business.

ayep that’s true. However expecting such a confiscation to be 90%
successful is more than slightly optimistic as well. The odds are in our
favor here.

>>Except of course, that wont be possible, since you and yours will still
>be
>>demanding police protection.
>
>Again, your rhetorical slavering blinds you to certain very real facts to
>the contrary.

hmm, care to cite a couple?

>>Lest you fantasize that the military will intervene, think again.
>
>Do tell. I guess you are unaware of the infamous survey conducted my
some
>military-type who was writing his Masters’ thesis.

oh, indeed I am. It showed that 1/3 of the respondents, mostly junior
enlisted people, *would* take up arms against the civilian populace, and
2/3 would not. Even the Marines consider a unit to be unable to operate
at 1/3 strength.

>The moment you and/or your militiaboy brethren begin a shooting war,
>despite whatever jingo-ism you label it with, the fact remains that most
>people, military included, will be quite cognizant of the fact that you
>have de facto begun an insurrection, rebellion, etc. and I have little
>doubt that the military will shoot some of the militiaboys like the
>traitors that they are, some will receive pardons like after the Civil
>War, and hopefully the gene pool of America will have been cleansed of
the
>congenital stupidity that seems to be rampant within the so-called
>”militia movement.”

hmm, you seem to ignore the basic issue that this is a resistance
movement…we don’t intend to *start* such a conflict…just finish it.
Given that, once we are attacked the case for self defense becomes
predominant. As for cleansing the gene pool, well, even if the desire for
Liberty was genetic, are you sure you’d want to get rid of it?

>If you don’t believe in that scenario, be my guest as starting your
little
>”inevitable war.”

Again, Jim, *we* aren’t going to start it.

>So, take your best shot, so to speak.

oh we shall, never fear.

Arlin

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:25:46 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Fri, 17 May 96 20:03:22 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Revolutionary Majorities
Lines: 16

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (JHistorian)
writes:

>>>Thankyou Jim, but I was trying to force our mysterious Canadian
>>>poster to decloak…
>
>Huber? I doubt that he is Beam, writing incognito. I’ve read some of
the
>stuff that Beam has written/spoken. As strange as Beam is, he is still
>far more articulate than is Huber.

uh no, although they only have half a brain between them, I’m sure huber
and beam are two different people. The post I was responding to was
someone *else* writing from canada…I thought we had a 3rd nazidiot
decloaking, you see.

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:25:47 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Fri, 17 May 96 22:20:32 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Chechan Militia
Lines: 158

Hi again Jim,

>I think it’s pretty clear that there is a higher incidence of racism in
>the so-called “militias” and their kindred than in society in general.

I guess what I’m trying to get at is that the perception of racism is MUCH
greater than the actual racism I’ve encountered among militia members. I
certainly have *not* run into any supremacist types among the CM. In some
monocultural areas I’ve encountered racism, but only in the populist
context of people who are leery of folks who ‘aren’t from around
here’…in a monocultural environment it’s easier to tell if someone fits
that category, if they also *look* different. In other words, the only
racism I’ve encountered in the movement is the same background noise sort
which exists in mainstream American Society.

>At the same time, I also think it is not just a little bit hypocritical
of
>American society at large to blame certain groups for behaviour that also
>exists in the general society.

Agreed!

>* hmm, nobody I know or associate with uses those terms…there’s a small
>* number of folks in the midwest and west who use the term 14th Amendment
>* Citizen in a derogatory way, and those I will not defend.
>
>The “Sovereign Citizen v. 14th Amendment citizen” exists on every
>militiaboy web page or BBS that I have contacted — which is over 500 of
>them, at last count, in all regions of the country.

well, you’ve certainly seen more web pages than I have, I doubt that I
have more than 60-70 bookmarked that are current. Since I communicate
primarily via the net, my contact with BBS’s is also obviously more
limited than your own…doubt that I’ve run into more than 30 or so that
were uniquely militia oriented…I dunno do you count networked bbs’s
(such as PRN) each as a seperate entity, or as a reflection of the group,
or both?

I guess my response to this would be twofold:

1. As regards web pages, the simple fact is that *anybody* can publish a
personal web page, whether or not they actually represent anyone other
than themselves is another matter entirely. A couple of examples you may
be able to find with a search engine include the ‘GLOCK4’ pseudogang page
and the infamous ‘CNG’ page from last months NBC News smear job on the
militias. Both of these pages are run by small groups (3-4) of teenage
wannabes who apparently have little or no connection to anyone else. Hmm,
last I looked there’s even a pseudomilitia web page run by a couple of
kids at the USAF Academy High School…unless their computer teacher has
caught it by now and taken it down….

Also, the web no more profiles the militia movement than it provides an
accurate reflection of American society at large. If I were to judge the
US by what I see on the web, I’d say that we are all constantly buying
computer equipment, ordering fancy food and gifts through the mail, taking
activist stances on political and social issues, tend to hold libertarian
views, and have at least a Bachelor’s degree. As a registered
Libertarian, I can say that at least one component of that last statement
is provably false…so are the rest, most likely. A profile of the
movement drawn from these resources is no more probably accurate than that
of the American public.

2. Since I don’t regularly deal in the BBS world, my only question to you
there would be if you were counting seperate BBS’s that were networked? (I
mentioned PRN, as the one I’m most familiar with) If so, how much of the
traffic you saw on each BBS originated there, and how much originated
elsewhere on the network? Please to remember that militias are inherently
*local* organizations. If a majority of a certain type of BBS traffic
originated on one or two (or even 8 or 10) nodes on a network and then
circulated throughout the rest, that traffic would certainly not represent
militias which existed in the areas associated with the other nodes….

>That you personally are not aware of it, or do not associate yourself
>with it, does not necessarily entail that it is not a MAJOR COMPONENT of
>the “platform” of the so-called “militia movement.”

hmm, well, I’d remind you once again that once again that this is a
movement based on *local* control. To the extent that neither I nor
anyone else can speak for all of the militias, there may be some out there
for whom it is a major component. However, to the extent that my contacts
exist throughout a major portion of this country, I can categorically
state that it has never even been considered as a component of any such
platform. That’s about the best I can give you on that one Jim.

>* but that includes exactly NO one that I know. Personally I’ve neither
>* ever seen nor heard the term Preamble Citizen…where did you come by
>it?
>
>From a number of the militiaboy BBSes and web pages.

this one honestly has me stumped – if you could email me the URL’s of a
couple of these sites, I’d like to take a look at them…

>* Now let’s look at Texas, which is I believe where you live
>
>You “believe” incorrectly. I live in New Orleans; I used to live in
>Texas.

ooooooooops sorry! my error!

>On the contrary, it is reasonable to blame all Texans — to the extent
>that they tolerate such anti-constitutional ideas. If they do not
>tolerate them, do not defend them, and seek to weed them out, then — no,
>it is not reasonable to blame them

ah, my point exactly!

>* neither is it reasonable to blame the entire militia movement for the
>idiocies
>* of the few.
>
>On the contrary, it is reasonable to blame all militiaboys — to the
>extent that they tolerate such anti-constitutional ideas. If they do not
>tolerate them, do not defend them, and seek to weed them out, then — no,
>it is not reasonable to blame them.

again exactly.

>However, you and your brethren do not do so. In fact, you claim that
what
>are obvious threats are not threats at all, and what are not threats are,
>in fact, threats.

That’s an awfully general statement, Jim. In point of fact we have been
and are continuing to work at filtering the racism out of the movement,
even as society at large is doing the same throughout the country.
Because of our emphasis on individual rights, I would submit that we are
AT LEAST on par with the rest of the US, and probably slightly ahead of
most areas from which we draw our membership. As for defining what is,
and is not, a threat, I’m afraid I’m going to have to ask for some
specifics. Validity of a threat is inherently a value judgement,
therefore the only way to discuss this issue would be to examine some
specific instances and look at the underlying values which led us to our
decisions. Make sense?

>And, in my opinion, you DO deserve the scorn, and the blame, in such
>instances.

w-e-l-l you’re certainly allowed your opinion, but I would submit from the
above, that it may very well be based on a biased sample.

>>I can continue, if you like.
>
>* So can I, if you like.
>
>Please do. It’s one of the few semblances of something other than
>bucolic, doe-eyed notions of revolution, etc. that I’ve seen hereon.

over to you πŸ™‚

Arlin

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:25:48 PDT 1996
Article: 19060 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sat, 18 May 96 15:18:19 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Req: Patriot music
Lines: 12

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Tim Hill)
writes:

>70% of American women have never had an emotionally
> satisfactory relationship with a Republican
> –TV Nation Poll
>
>

gee, and from what they’ve told me, all Democrats do is talk about it…no
wonder we libertarians get all the women. :->

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:25:49 PDT 1996
Article: 19062 of misc.activism.militia
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Posted-Date: 17 May 1996 20:38:57 -0400
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sat, 18 May 96 15:20:05 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: “Worst Nightmare”
Lines: 26

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (JHistorian)
writes:

>
>>It’s the old ‘walks like a duck/talks like a duck’ routine – he acts
>>like a threat, therefore I must assume that he is, until it is proven
>>otherwise. Such proof has not yet been forthcoming.
>
>Nor has any proof been forthcoming that he is doing anything other than
>just pissing you off.
>
>Explain to me each and every instance where something that Pitcavage has
>said has altered your life in some empirically measurable terms.

Jim, ya gotta calm down man…you just ran right over into the next
message…if you go back and read what I wrote you’ll notice that I said
that since he is hostile he must be presumed to be a threat until proven
otherwise. True, he may very well be a hostile wimp with no more than a
computer and an attitude, but over the internet that’s rather difficult to
ascertain, now isn’t it?

really..just take a few deep breaths, that’s it, relax…you made a
mistake, but it’s okay…I’m pretty sure you’re mature enough to admit it.

Arlin

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:25:49 PDT 1996
Article: 19067 of misc.activism.militia
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militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sat, 18 May 96 15:33:22 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: War Veteran Wannabes: the Suicide of Adml Boorda
Lines: 12

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (The Amer War
Lib’y) writes:

> VIETNAM VETERAN PHONIES
>
>Since The American War Library’s establishment on the Internet
>approximately one year ago,

I herewith nominate these guys for bad taste troll of the month.

Arlin H. Adams

From [email protected] Fri May 24 23:25:50 PDT 1996
Article: 19080 of misc.activism.militia
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Posted-Date: 17 May 1996 20:13:43 -0400
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atype.com!militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sat, 18 May 96 15:20:18 GMT
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: “Worst Nightmare”
Lines: 91

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (JHistorian)
writes:

>No, Arlin, let’s look at it from a perspective of real REALITY.

oh, I agree, let’s.

>You claim Mark is a threat, because he collects information. Along coms
>Bebee (or whatever is his name), and he overtly threatens Mark, and you
>say, “no, it wasn’t.”

Harry Bibee didn’t threaten mark. The only person who has openly
threatened mark, to my recollection, has been mikey, whom no one
*including mark* takes seriously. The ‘threat’ mark was whining about was
the militia Declaration issued back in April. You jumped into the middle
of a *long* multithread discussion here Jim, without checking back to see
what was actually going on. Reality is that mark becomes nearly
hysterical whenever anything is posted that even appears to imply that the
militias are capable of taking effective action. Reality is, ya done been
duped by mark’s hysteria.

>The ONLY THING that differentiates, in your book, is whether or not the
>respective participant happens to be of your same persuasion.

I would say that *seems* to be the reason you committed yourself to this
erronious course of action…

>>he is openly hostile to the entire movement.
>
>So friggin’ what? He does have that right, doesn’t he?

certainly he has the right. and I have an equal right to be hostile right
back…that’s why he and I get into it so much.

>Or, is the First Amendment actually the First Casualty in Militia World?

No, but let me throw that back at you and ask if it’s the First Casualty
of the anti-militia world…as it might seem in this case?

>>It’s the old ‘walks like a duck/talks like a duck’ routine …..
>
>And, of course, Bebee’s (or whatever is his name) duck is actually a
>canary.

Mr. Bibee is a very talented person, but can’t ever remember hearing of
him turn a duck into a canary. WHEW! Is that legal??

>Typical militaboy bullshit.

typical blind antimilitia prejudice.

>Mark doesn’t slander you, Arlin. You slander yourselves — by not
>possessing sufficient enough personal integrity and ethics to admit that
>there are some really crazy mother fuckers in your midst and that they,
in
>fact, DO manifest themselves as a threat — not only to people like Mark,
>but to yourselves.

uh, would you say Billy Jeff, Aunt Janet, and Uncle Louie (Freeh) are on
your side? Do you have the personal integrity to admit one is a political
hack and the other two have strong neofascist tendencies? There are crazy
people on *all* sides of the issue. The above mentioned DO manifest
themselves as threats to the liberties of both us AND you. What then do
you do for yourselves by ignoring these problems?

>Since you’re enamored of old adages, here’s you one you might pause to
>reflect upon:
>
>”You lay down with dogs, you get up with fleas.”

precisely my point here Jim.

>If you people don’t start portraying yourselves as reasonable people and
>cleaning out the lunatics in your midst, you aren’t going to win any
>”inevitable war or anything else, for that matter, except the loathing of
>the entire country.

precisely my point back to you here, Jim.

>And, that is not “patriotic” of you, it is simply stupid.

Sauce for the goose, Jim.

Arlin

From [email protected] Sat May 4 22:41:39 PDT 1996
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