The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)
Nuremberg, war crimes, crimes against humanity

The Trial of German Major War Criminals

Sitting at Nuremberg, Germany
27th May to 6th June, 1946

One Hundred and Thirty-Ninth Day: Monday, 27th May, 1946
(Part 4 of 11)

[MR. DODD continues his cross examination of Baldur von Schirach]

[Page 14]

Q. But you knew about it when you made the speech, did you not?

A. I did not recollect it on that occasion two years later, and in my speech I did not mean it either.

Q. You forgot that Hitler said he must exterminate the intelligentsia, that you must be masters of these people, that they must remain at a low standard of living? Did that pass out of your mind so easily?

A. I remember that speech at Kattowitz; I spoke there about completely different matters. I assume that the prosecution even has the shorthand record of that speech and need only submit it here. This is just a short extract.

Q. But, you see, witness, the point is, knowing what the policy was, I would like to have you tell the Tribunal how you could urge and praise that policy to a group of young people and party leaders of the occasion of this speech in Kattowitz.

A. The policy which I was recommending to youth leaders there was not the policy which Hitler developed in his table-talk.

Q. Of course, you said it was the Fuehrer's policy in your speech, and you know it was, but I will not press it further if that is your answer.

A. Very often probably - and I once said this here - I supported the policy of the Fuehrer out of erroneous loyalty to him. I know that it was not right.

Q. That is what I want to know. You were, were you not, acting under an impulse of loyalty to the Fuehrer? Now you recognize it to be erroneous, and that is all I am inquiring for, and if you tell the Tribunal that, I shall be perfectly satisfied.

A. Yes, I am prepared to admit that.

Q. Very well. And, witness, now we are getting to it; that goes for all these things that went on.

A. Not at all.

Q. Have you not to say to the Tribunal concerning your letter to Der Sturmer and all of these things about the Jewish people to the young people, and this slow building up of race hatred in them, the co-operation with the SS, your handling of the Jews in Vienna, that for all these things you are, and for all of them, responsible?

A. No.

MR. DODD: Finally, I want to offer in evidence, Mr. President, some excerpts from these weekly SS reports to which I referred briefly on Friday, so that they shall be before the Tribunal. There are 55 of them, Mr. President, and they run consecutively by weeks, and they all bear the stamp of this defendant's office as having been received there, and they supplant the monthly report which was received up to the time that weekly reports began arriving.

We have not had all of them translated or mimeographed, and if the defendant wishes to put in any others, we will make them available, of course. We have selected a few as samples to illustrate the kind of report that was contained in these weekly reports, and I wish to offer them.

The first one is No. 1, beginning on 1st May, 1942, and No. 4, No. 6, No. 7, No. 9, No. 38, No. 41, and No. 49.

Now I want to make this clear to you, witness, out of fairness. Besides statements concerning what was happening to the Jews, you will find in these weekly reports a number of statements about the partisan affairs in the East as well. These excerpts have mostly to do with what happened to the Jews, and we have not, Mr. President, drawn out a great number that had to do with the partisans. There are a number, however, that do have to do with partisans and

[Page 15]

not with the Jews, so we wish there to be no doubt about how we offer these weekly reports.

Q. I just want to ask you, with respect to these weekly reports: Do you, this morning, recall that you did receive them every week in your office?

A. But that is not my office. My office is the central office. That office was directed by the Government President, and one of his officials initialled the files, as appears from the markings on them, and as any official trained in German bureaucracy can confirm. They were then put before the Government President who marked them "for the files" and initialled them. I could not know these documents at all.

Q. Now just a minute. You were the Reich Commissioner for the defence of that territory, were you not?

A. Yes.

Q. And that is the stamp that is on these weekly reports, is it not?

A. Yes.

Q. Well, what do you mean by saying that it was not your office?

A. Because the mail, by a procedure similar to that in a ministry, where it goes to the office of the minister, reached me in the central office; and a corresponding note had to be made on these files. I can understand perfectly well why the Government President, since I was overburdened with work, did not submit to me material which had no connection at all with Vienna or my activities, but which was merely informative and concerned with events in Russia, mostly guerrilla fighting in Russia.

Q. I am going to ask you, again, as I have so many times in the course of this examination: Dellbruegge, who initialled these, was your principal assistant, was he not? Yes or no.

A. Yes, he was one of my three deputies.

Q. And he was also an SS man, and so was your other principal assistant, as we asked the other day.

A. Dellbruegge was a high SS leader. He was a special confidant of the Reich Leader SS.

Q. How did he happen to be working for you?

A. He was assigned to me there.

MR. DODD: Mr. President, I do not think it is necessary to read any excerpts from these weekly reports. They have been translated into four languages, and - well, I am misinformed. I thought they were translated. Then I think it would be better if we do have them translated and submit them at a later date rather than take the time to read them now.

I have no further questions.

THE PRESIDENT: Do you want to re-examine? We had better adjourn now.

(A recess was taken.)


Q. Do you admit that the Hitler Jugend had the task of inculcating German youth and children, starting from nine years of age, with Fascist ideology?

Do you hear me?

A. Yes, I understand you to ask, whether I would admit having inculcated Fascist ideas into tento fourteen-year-old children of the Hitler Youth?

As I said in my testimony a few days ago, I saw my mission and my duty in educating German youth to be citizens of the National Socialist State -

THE PRESIDENT (interposing): That is not an answer to the question. It is not necessary for you to tell us what you said in your previous evidence. Will you just answer the question: Do you admit that you inculcated, in the Hitler Youth, Hitler's ideology? You can answer that "yes" or "no."

[Page 16]

THE WITNESS: I cannot answer that question with "yes," because it referred to Fascism. There is a great difference between Fascism and National Socialism. I cannot answer that question with "yes." I did educate German youth in the spirit of National Socialism, that I can admit.


Q. I would like you to confirm the evidence which you gave on the 16th of November, 1945, during your interrogation. You defined your personal attitude to Hitler in the following way; and I quote your evidence:

"I was an enthusiastic adherent of Hitler. I considered everything that he wrote and stated to be a manifestation of truth." (NOTE: The interpreter translated this: . . . "looked upon him as a deity.") Do you confirm this statement?
A. I did not say that, and that is not a record which was submitted to me. I never spoke of Hitler as a deity, never. I remember exactly, General, that you interrogated me on this point, and I was asked whether I had been an enthusiastic follower. I confirmed that, and I spoke about the time when I joined the Movement; but I never set up the comparison with which I am now confronted in the translation; I never said that I believed in Hitler as a deity, never.

Q. You do not understand me correctly. Nothing is said here about deity. Your evidence has been taken down, and I will repeat it:

"I was an enthusiastic adherent of Hitler, and I considered everything that he wrote and stated to be a manifestation of truth."
(The interpreter mistranslated this.)

Do you confirm this statement?

Answer the question directly.

A. The translation is quite inexact. May. I ask you to put the exact question again?

Q. I will quote your statement again:

"I was an enthusiastic adherent of Hitler, and I considered everything that he wrote and stated to be a manifestation of truth."
(The interpreter again mistranslated.)

Is that right?

A. I am accused now of having said: "I was an enthusiastic adherent of Hitler, and I considered everything that he wrote and stated to be the personification of truth." That is how I understood it, and I must say I could never have uttered such nonsense.

DR. SERVATIUS (Counsel for the defendant Sauckel): May I give an explanation of this translation? I think the correct German would have to be: "I considered what Hitler said to be a manifestation of truth," and not "the personification of truth"; then it would be intelligible. There is a mistake in the interpretation.


Q. Your defence counsel has perhaps helped you to answer my question.

A. General, that was not my defence counsel, but the defence counsel for the defendant Sauckel. If it is translated "manifestation of truth," then, of course, the whole passage makes sense, and also corresponds roughly to what I said to you when I described the period of my youth.

Q. Very well.

In your book, entitled Die Hitler Jugend, it said - and I quote page 17: "Hitler's book, Mein Kampf, is our bible." Do you confirm this? Did you write that?

A. But I added something to that in my book, The Hitler Youth, its faith and organization. I want to say, first of all, that I did write this book. I wrote it -

Q. I would like to interrupt you. I do not need such detailed explanations; and I would like you to answer the question: Is that sentence contained in your book?

[Page 17]

A. I have just confirmed that, but I would like to add an explanation. In this book - which I wrote in 1933, and which was published in 1934 - I said: "We could not yet offer detailed reasons for our belief, we simply believed. But when Hitler's Mein Kampf appeared, it was like a bible, which we almost learned by heart so as to answer the questions of doubtful and dissenting critics."

That is how I worded it at the time, that is correct.

Q. I would like to put another more precise question to you. Do you admit that the Hitler Jugend was a political organization which, under the leadership of the NSDAP, carried out the policy of this Party among German youth?

A. The Hitler Youth was a large educational community on a political basis, but I cannot admit that it was led by the Party; it was led by me. I was a member of the Executive Committee of the Party, and in that sense one might speak of a Party influence. But I can see no reason for having to confirm this, since I have already testified to it. It is correct that the Hitler Youth was the youth organization of the Party.

If that is the sense of your question, I will confirm it.

Q. Yes, I just had that in view.

I would like to remind you of the tasks which Hitler had prescribed for the education of German youth. That is set out in Rauschning's book, which has already been submitted as documentary evidence before the Tribunal as Exhibit USSR 378. I quote page 252 of that book:

"In my order we will bring up youth who will make the world shudder with fear, youth that is hard, exigent, unafraid and cruel. That is my wish. Youth must have all these qualities; they must be indifferent to sufferings; they must have neither weakness, nor softness. I would like to see in their eyes the, proud, self-sufficient glitter of a beast of prey."
You educated German youth in accordance with these demands of Hitler. Do you admit that?

A. I will not admit what Herr Rauschning wrote. Just by accident I was present at a conversation between Hitler and Rauschning and, judging by it, I must say that the statements in Rauschning's book represent an unfaithful record of what Hitler said. Just by accident I witnessed a conversation between them.

Hitler did not give me the directives which Rauschning sets forth here as the guiding principles laid down by Hitler himself for the training of the Hitler Youth.

Q. I did not ask you to give such a detailed explanation. I would like you to answer the question I put to you briefly in order to shorten the time of interrogation. You have stated the Hitler Youth did not educate German youth in the militaristic spirit and did not prepare German youth for future aggressive wars. I would like to remind you of certain statements you made in that very same book of yours, Hitler Youth, right here on page 83 of that book. Talking of the younger generation, the so-called Jungvolk, you wrote:

"They carry the National Socialist characteristics. The toy merchants are worried because these children no longer need toys; they are interested in camp tents, spears, compasses and maps. It is a particular trait of our youth. Everything that is against our unity must be thrown into the flames."
And these also were the directives which German soldiers, trained in the Hitler Youth, followed when they set on fire houses of the peaceful population in occupied territories, is that not true? Is that contained in the book, the passage I have just read?

A. What is in front of me now is contained in my book. What I heard from the interpreter is not in my book.

Q. Well, then, make your corrections.

A. May I read the correct passage:

"The toy merchants have complained to me that the boys" (they mean the Jungvolk) "no longer want toys, but are interested only in tents, spears, compasses and maps. I cannot help the toy merchants, for I agree with the

[Page 18]

boys that the era of the 'Redskins ' is finally gone. What is 'Old Shatterhend,' what is a trapper in the backwoods of America compared to our troop-leader? A miserable, dusty remnant from the lumber-chest of our fathers. Not only the toy merchants are complaining but also the school cap manufacturers.

Who wears a school cap nowadays? And who nowadays is a high-school boy or girl? In some towns the boys have banded together and publicly burned such school caps. Burning is, in fact, a speciality of new youth. The border fences of the minor States of the Reich have also been reduced to ashes in the fires of your youth.

It is a simple but heroic philosophy; everything that is against our unity must be thrown into the flames."

That, General, is the expression of the "storm and stress" of youth which has found its social unity.

Q. According to your opinion, the philosophy implies that children must no longer play with toys, but must do other things. Did I understand you correctly? I do not see any essential differences between my quotation and yours.

A. May I say that I think the military training of the youth of Germany falls much behind that of the Soviet Union.

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