The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)
Nuremberg, war crimes, crimes against humanity

The Trial of German Major War Criminals

Sitting at Nuremberg, Germany
4th April to 15th April, 1946

One Hundred and Third Day: Tuesday, 9th April, 1946
(Part 11 of 12)

[COLONEL POKROVSKY continues his cross examination of Hans Heinrich Lammers]

[Page 180]

Q. Witness, wait a moment. I didn't ask you what the Fuehrer asked Rosenberg to do. I am asking you, what did the Fuehrer authorise or ask you to do? You said: to help Rosenberg. Exactly what form did your help to Rosenberg take?

Wait a minute. Did you participate in the development - wait a moment, please listen to my question. Did you participate in working out a plan for the administrative organisation of the Eastern territories? Do you understand me?

A. I did not take part in working out the organisation of the economic administration.

Q. I want you to take a look at Document No. 1056-PS. Do you recall this document now?

A. I must see it first.

Q. Yes, that is the reason why it was given to you.

A. I do not seem to recognise this document, nor do I believe that I prepared it. It is, on the contrary, obviously a plan drawn up by Herr Rosenberg.

Q. In other words, you affirm that you did not know anything, and you don't know anything at all about this document?

A. It is possible that Herr Rosenberg handed me a plan of the kind, but at the moment I cannot say whether I ever had these thirty pages in my hands or not. I don't know.

Q. Yesterday you testified before the Tribunal - and your testimony was very detailed - in regard to the question of Organisation plans for the administration of Eastern territories. How could you give any truthful testimony if you did not know anything at all about this basic document? This particular document really defines and determines the structure of administration in territories which were under Rosenberg. Do you understand me?

A. I cannot give any opinion as to what is contained in this document: I cannot form an opinion of a document of thirty pages in one moment here. Please let me have the document so that I can read the whole of it. I do not believe that I ever had this document in my hands. Rosenberg attended to organisation in the East. I simply co-operated in making a decree - a basic decree - by which Rosenberg was given the authority in the East. I was not at all interested in the details.

Q. If your memory is so weak in regard to this document, then would you please be good enough to look at another document? It is less than thirty pages long. Now, you will be shown a document signed by yourself. It deals with the question of the Soviet prisoners of war. It is Document Exhibit 361. There is one passage

[Page 181]

marked in this document which says that the Soviet prisoners of war should not be treated according to general rules, but put under the charge of the Ministry for Eastern Territories. Have you found the place? (There was a slight pause.) Witness Lammers, I am asking you -

A. I have not found the place.

Q. Take a look at the second page.

A. The appendix.

Q. Yes, yes, in the appendix. For your convenience, the place is marked with a pencil.

A. Not here. There is no marked passage in the one I have.

THE PRESIDENT: Colonel Pokrovsky, the document I have - if it is the same one 073-PS - is in paragraphs. Might you refer him to the paragraphs?

COLONEL POKROVSKY: Just a minute, please.

Unfortunately the paragraph is not mentioned in the excerpt I have. However, the exact place will be shown to the witness.

The place is really marked with a pencil. He simply did not notice it.

Q. Have you found it?

A. Yes, I have it now.

Q. And now you have convinced yourself that it is marked with a pencil?

A. Yes, the Foreign Office -

Q. I am not asking you about that. I am interested in another place where it says, "The exception to this regulation is the Soviet prisoners" - have you found it?

A. Yes.

Q. "The exception to this regulation is the Soviet prisoners of war" - that is what I am interested in - "who are under the charge of the Minister administering Occupied Eastern Territories, since the general conference does not-" and so forth. Have you found the place?

A. Yes, I have the place.

Q. Did you sign this document?

A. I did not sign this document, because it has been drawn up by the Foreign Office. I simply signed a letter forwarding this memorandum from the Foreign Office to Minister Rosenberg for his information.

Q. Also, with a covering note. You also sent your letter -

A. In this covering note I say that I am enclosing a memorandum from the Foreign Office. "The Foreign Office comments on your letter, etc.; and may inform you of this." I simply acted as intermediary and forwarding office. I did not draw up the memorandum or sign it.

Q. Then do I understand you in this way - that you actually substantiated the authenticity of this document, the document that went through your hands?

A. I do not know; I cannot substantiate the authenticity ...

Q. How can you say that? You told us you were forwarding it; you gave this document and forwarded it to somebody else. Did you send it to some address?

A. I sent on the document signed. I signed the letter informing Herr Rosenberg of the attitude taken by the Foreign Office. Whether the enclosure is authentic or not, I do not know.

Q. I am quite satisfied with this answer.

On 8th April, here before the Tribunal, you stated that the solution of the Jewish problem was referred by Hitler to Goering and Heydrich and later on to Heydrich's successor, Kaltenbrunner. Now, I want you to tell us exactly how Goering, Heydrich and Kaltenbrunner participated in solving the Jewish problem.

A. I only knew that a Fuehrer-order was transmitted by Reich Marshal Goering to Heydrich, who was at that time head of the R.S.H.A. I believe that it was then transferred to Kaltenbrunner's field. This order was called "Final Solution of the Jewish Problem"; thus no one knew what it dealt with or what the term meant. In the period which followed I made several efforts to clarify the real meaning of the

[Page 182]

term "final solution" and what was to happen. I attempted yesterday to explain this question, but I was not allowed to say all I wanted.

Q. Well, it is not sufficiently clear exactly through whom and how - in what way - you attempted to clarify the meaning of the expression "final solution of the Jewish problem." Whom did you appeal to? Whom did you ask?

A. At first I appealed to Himmler and asked him what the significance of these measures was. Himmler told me that the Fuehrer had ordered him to evacuate the Jews who were still in Germany, and this led to a number of problems referred to as the "Final Solution of the Jewish Problem." This is what I said yesterday.

Q. Witness, wait a minute. You said that Hitler charged Goering and Heydrich - and subsequently Kaltenbrunner - with the solution of this problem. Did you address yourself to Goering in regard to this, to Heydrich and to Kaltenbrunner? Did you ask them that question, the question in which you told me you were interested?

A. No, I cannot remember doing that, because I believed that Goering was merely transmitting the Fuehrer's order. I have no knowledge of Keitel's participation; I did not hear of that until today.

Q. Not Keitel, Heydrich. You didn't mention Keitel at all. Evidently it was wrongly translated. Kaltenbrunner, yesterday - you said -

A. Heydrich had this assignment. I discovered from the reports of my assistants that such an assignment existed. I was interested in ascertaining what kind of assignment it was, and I applied to Himmler for information.

Q. And so you were not successful.

A. I did not see a written order.

Q. Yesterday you said, "all except me" expressed their opinion on Jewish problems. Who are all these, "all except me"? You remember that testimony yesterday?

A. I testified yesterday that I had spoken to Himmler, about this question and that I reserved for myself the right to report to the Fuehrer. I also testified that I had an interview with the Fuehrer but that it was very difficult to influence the Fuehrer in these matters. I also testified yesterday that there were rumours about Jews being killed which led me to make investigations. I also testified yesterday that these rumours, as far as I could find out, were nothing more than rumours. So there was nothing else for me to do but to go to the Fuehrer in this matter - first to go to Himmler, and then to the Fuehrer.

Q. Witness, I did not ask you what you said yesterday. I don't want to hear your testimony for the second time. What I am interested in, and what I want to clarify at the moment, is the fact that you mentioned yesterday that "all except me expressed their opinion in regard to the Jewish problem." Who is "all"? Name them. Whom do you mean? And answer my question directly.

A. I don't understand the question "all."

Q. I will repeat this question for the third time, so that you can understand it better, if necessary. Yesterday you said, when you were testifying on the solution of the Jewish problem, "all except me expressed their opinion and defined their attitude in regard to the Jewish problem. I was also asked to give my opinion." Do you remember it now?

A. Yes, I remember that.

Q. Very well.

A. The word "all" refers to all the departmental representatives invited to attend this conference. The heads of the departments concerned were invited to attend all these R.S.H.A. conferences. That is what "all" applies to.

Q. No, name the defendants here who were present.

A. There were no ministers present at all. This was merely a conference of experts. I was not there. I do not know who attended this conference.

Q. You were present at the conference in Hitler's quarters on 16th July, 1941? You understand what conference I mean, don't you? That is, the one which was

[Page 183]

for the purpose of considering objectives of a war against the U.S.S.R. Do you understand it now?

A. Yes.

Q. Was Keitel present at the conference?

A. To my knowledge - yes.

Q. Do you remember whether Keitel made any statements in regard to the question of the objects of a war against the U.S.S.R.?

A. I cannot remember whether he mentioned that subject.

Q. And did you stay until the end of the conference?

A. I assume I stayed to the end.

Q. And Keitel, too; and Keitel also stayed until the end?

A. I cannot remember that now. I assume that he did; he may have left earlier.

Q. You cannot be positive about it?

A. No, I cannot be certain.

Q. On the 13th October, 1945, you were interrogated by a Lieutenant-Colonel of the American Army and on that occasion you testified that Rosenberg was appointed Minister for the Eastern Territories according to the personal wish of the Fuehrer. Do you remember this testimony?

A. I know that I testified.

Q. Further, you testified on the same day, and during the same interrogation, that you did not recommend Rosenberg for this post, since you had certain objections in regard to his fitness for the position. What were the objections to Rosenberg being appointed?

A. There were many objections to Rosenberg's appointment, these were specifically raised by Bormann. Reichsleiter Bormann did not want to have Rosenberg in this position.

Q. Say something about your objections. What were your own objections?

A. I submitted the question to the Fuehrer at the time whether, if military complications arose, it was necessary to have such a man at all for the East; and, if so, whether Rosenberg was the right man to organise these matters.

Q. It was in April, 1941?

A. I no longer remember; it was in the spring.

Q. On orders from Reich Minister Rosenberg, forced labour was introduced - forced labour for the Jewish population of the Eastern regions - on 16th August, 1941. Everyone of Jewish origin between the ages of 14 and 60 had to perform forced labour. If they refused to work they were liable to be executed. Do you know about this order or not?

A. I did not know of it. I cannot recall it.

Q. Take a look at this document and try and remember.

COLONEL POKROVSKY: Mr. President, this document is printed on Page 50 of the second part of Goering's "Green Folder," which was already submitted to the Tribunal under No. 348.

THE WITNESS: I cannot remember this document.


Q. All right. We will let that go. Take a look at another document. Perhaps your memory will be somewhat better in regard to this document.

THE PRESIDENT: Colonel Pokrovsky, in that last document that you were referring to, have these paragraphs of the ordinance been read into the record?

COLONEL POKROVSKY: I wouldn't be quite positive about that, Mr. President, in regard to this question, whether these particular paragraphs were read into the record. All the second part of Goering's "Green Folder" was presented to the Tribunal in evidence and listed under USA 320, Exhibit USA 320, and the next one there, the number is EZ 347. This part was read into the record. I think that inasmuch as the witness does not remember this document now, we shall touch upon it when it is needed more. Now, we will take care of something else.

[Page 184]


Q. Take a look at the Fuehrer directive of the 29th August, 1944. This document, of course, will be easy to remember, since your signature appears on it. This is a directive in regard to the economic measures in the occupied Eastern regions.

COLONEL POKROVSKY: This document, your Honours, is also one of the documents of the second part of Goering's "Green Folder." It is presented to the Tribunal in English.


Q. Now, do you recognise this document?

A. Yes, I signed this document. This is a measure which the Fuehrer decreed at the Reich Marshal's suggestion?

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