The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: places/poland/kiev/babi-yar.07

>Subject:  #457450-#Jews and the Media - Msg Number: 457970
>   From:  Manfred Koch 73743,130
>     To:  Mike Curtis 76711,3360
>  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
>   Date:  18-Feb-96  18:48:09
>>> Mr. Swiger, for some strange reason, seems to prefer avoiding issues here,
>like the Wannsee minutes. I must have missed the part where Mr. Jackson called
>Mr. Swiger names... is this message incomplete, or is Mr. Swiger doing some
>creative fantasizing here?<<
>Hallo, Mike:
>Re:  Wannsee-Protocol.  Let's talk.
>Is someone a "Holocaust denier" if he does not accept that the January 1942
>"Wannsee conference" of German bureaucrats was held to set or coordinate a
>program of systematic mass murder of Europe's Jews? If so, Israeli Holocaust
>historian Yehuda Bauer must be wrong -- and a "Holocaust denier" -- because he
>declared: "The public still repeats, time after time, the silly story that at
>Wannsee the extermination of the Jews was arrived at."  In Bauer's opinion,
>Wannsee was a meeting but "hardly a conference" and "little of what was said
>there was executed in detail."
>Now, make sure you understand the above, it is from Jewish sourses, Yehuda


Mr. Koch demonstrates his ability to dissimulate by posting a quotation that
is taken out of context. This technique is employed by so-called revisionists
in their desperate attempt to distort history for their own nefarious purposes.
The exact text of what Professor Bauer wrote is offered as proof that one
must always go to the source material when doubts exist regarding the veracity
of a quotation. More so when this emanates from a known prevaricator.


_The Holocaust in Historical Perspective_
  by Yehuda Bauer
  c. 1978, the University of Washington Press
  ISBN 0-85969-171-3

pp15/16  [***emphasis***  added]  

(begin quote)

   In January 1942, a meeting took place in Berlin (the so-called "Wannsee
Conference") took place of representatives of various German ministries in
order to coordinate the murder actions.  This has wrongly been represented
as a major turning point.  In fact, it was a meeting held for purely administrative
reasons to ***implement a decision that had been taken ten months previously
and which was in the process off being carried out.***  The decision of
Wannsee to "comb out" Europe's Jews from West to East was not followed
in any case;  the first victims outside the Russian sphere were in the
Generalgouvernement  (Central Poland)  ***where the Jewish populations of
the Lublin district were sent to their deaths at the death camp of Belzec.***
Other death camps soon came into operation in Poland -- Sobibor, Treblinka
and Maidanek -- and people not only from Poland but also from other 
countries were shipped there.

(end quote)

Mr. Koch has mendaciously distorted the words of Professor Bauer by snipping 
bits and pieces of the statement quoted above. A person who deliberately and
maliciously misleads by employing this technique is beneath the dignity of
the serious readers of this forum.



>Subject:  #456896-Babi Yar - Msg Number: 457965
>   From:  Manfred Koch 73743,130
>     To:  Mike Curtis 76711,3360
>  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
>   Date:  18-Feb-96  18:47:41
>>> The text that accompanies the photograph reads:
>"The excavation of a grave in Babi Yar in Kiev where thousands of Soviet
>citizens had been shot by the Hitlerites, Kiev, 1944."
>The photo is identified as being No. 2-46031 from the Central State Archive
>of the Cine and Photodocuments of the Ukranian SSR.<<
>Pictures like that one could also 'admire' in Spielberg's 'Schindler's List'.
>Who knows how much 'undiscovered black and white  documentary footage' we will
>be subjected to in the future, stemming from cutting-room floors?  That you
>people want to cling so desperately to Bolshevik 'evidence', is beyond me.  Is
>it because it suits your beliefs better?

Mr. Koch is not satisfied with the photograph of the Kiev*  massacre. He
attempts to divert the attention  the readers by making a statement regarding
a motion picture that is totally out of context with the thread of the 
discussion.  Such diversions are common tools employed by so-called 
revisionists who are unable to produce any evidence to the contrary. As a
picture that appears in a book issued by the Ukraine S.S.R.  and edited
by two distinguished jurists does not appear to satisfy Mr. Koch,  the following
statement written by the very perpetrators of this dreadful act is 
offered to the serious readers of this thread:

*Babi Yar


_Documents of the Holocaust_
 Edited by Yitzhak Arad, Yisrael Gutman and Abraham Margaliot
 c. 1981,  Ktav Publishing House.

pp 416/417  [***emphasis added***]

>From a Report by 'Einsatzgruppen' on the Extermination of the Jews
in the Ukraine, October, 1941.

(begin quote)

Operations and Situation Report No. 6 by the 'Einsatzgruppen' of
the Scurity Police and SD in the U.S. S. R.  (for the period October
1-31, 1941)

...c)  JEWS

The bitter hostility of the Ukrainian population against the Jews is
extremely great, because it is thought that they were responsible for
the explosions in Kiev. They are also seen as NKVD informers and
agents, who unleashed the terror against the Ukranian people.  All
Jews were arrested in retaliation for the arson in Kiev, and 
***altogether 33,771 Jews were executed on September 29th and
30th.***    Gold, valuables and clothing were collected and put at
the disposal of the National-Socialist Welfare Association (NSV)
for the equipment of the 'Volksdeutsche'  and part given to the 
appointed city administrator for distribution to the needy people.


In Schitomar 3,145 Jews had to be shot, because experience has showed
they must be considered as bearers of Bolshevist propaganda and


In Cherson 410 Jews were executed in retaliation for acts of sabotage.

The solution of the Jewish question in the area east of the Dnjepr has
been firmly attacked by the 'Einsatzgruppen' of the Security Police and
the SD.  The areas newly occupied by the commandos were cleared of 
Jews.  In the course of this action 4,891 Jews were liquidated. In other
localities the Jews were marked and registered. This made it possible to
put at the disposal of Wehrmacht offices Jewish worker groups of up to
1,000  persons for urgent work....

(end quote)

The above document forms part of the Nuremberg Documents as R102.

The 'Einsatzgruppen' reports can be seen in their original form as well as in 
microfilms held by the National Archives. Only one of over one hundred of
these reports is quoted above,  principally to quell Mr. Koch's sad attempt
to distort history.  The Nazi's and their collaborators murdered in cold 
blood  33,771 Jews including men, women, children and babes in arms
with the excuse that some of them (and no proof exists) might have set
off explosions in Kief.  Young mothers and their babies slaughtered by
animals too repulsive to be called humans.  These are the people that
Mr. Koch defends and admires.


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