The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/z/zundel.ernst/mcvay-on-zundel-citizenship

From: (Ken McVay OBC)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,can.politics,
Subject: Ernst Zundel's crocodile tears
Date: 19 Jun 1996 11:55:11 -0700
Organization: The Nizkor Project
Lines: 140
Message-ID: <4q9ief$>
References: <01bb5b46.1b1945a0$aeded3c6@default> <4q4jbg$> <01bb5ce7.f33a36e0$88ded3c6@default>
Xref: alt.revisionism:48966 can.politics:70210

In article <01bb5ce7.f33a36e0$88ded3c6@default>, 
"Duncan Coons" <> wrote:

>Ernst Zundel (I'll bow to the prevailing spelling) has been tried twice,
>and convicted on both occasions, under an arcane law practically conjured
>out of the law books for the purpose; he has been imprisoned in Germany

Yes - as Jamie McCarthy pointed out, he was found guilty of
lying, and of _knowingly_ lying. The law under which two
juries found him thus was later thrown out by the Supreme
Court of Canada as being contrary to the Canadian Charter of
Rights and Freedoms. In short, a proven liar received justice,
and walked. He is still a proven liar, and still peddles the
same lie for money.

>to recall let alone cite, directed against him by crusading lawyers and
>zealous Jewish organizations. Are these mere "claims" of persecution? For
>the sake of argument I concede everything you say about him, but he is
>clearly not lying or posturing when he says he is a victim of persecution,

Is he? In the first case - the "publishing false news" case,
he was clearly guilty - two juries said so. That the law was
later thrown out does not change the jury findings. In short,
he was not "persecuted," he really _did_ publish lies, and
under existing law of the day, his arrest was justified. That
the law was arcane, and ineffectual, I readily agree.

He has not been charged under Canada's so-called "hate speech"
laws, ever, in spite of the SCC rulings that they are

I would give creedence to the charge of "persecution" with
regard to the recent "conspiracy" charge, which I think was
foolish and doomed to failure from the gitgo, but what one
citizen does does not "persecution" make. Neither, I must
point out, is a libel suit - unless, of course, you believe
that Canadians should be able to lie about anyone with
complete legal impunity? Or that the victim of such lies
should have no legal recourse? 

I, for instance, have called Mr. Zundel a liar. I have also
said that he peddles hate for profit. I have also said that he
promoted a forgery for profit, in a videotape called "Das
Lachout Dokument."

Should he not be able to pursue a legal remedy, and force me to 
either prove my case or retract? Or would you consider that

>> Ernst Zundel, who called for the movie _Schindler's List_ to be
>> banned, is a human rights activist? 

>I've seen Ken McVay make this same obfuscation. I have no idea whether
>Zundel was serious when he suggested the film should be banned as
>anti-German hate, and it hardly matters. On the best construction Zundel

Oh, please. He was quite serious, as his flyer plainly
demonstrates. He is a hypocrite of the first order. (That is
not the only time Mr. Zundel called for censorship - he has no
problem demanding that movies or television shows be banned
when he finds them distasteful. See URL
for conclusion proof in both cases.)


>Or to be more precise: as a nation we will collectively, as Nizkor does
>individually, convince ourselves of such truly comical nonsense as "free
>speech has never been seriously curtailed" in Canada, and we will loudly

All nations have curbs on unrestricted speech, Canada among
them. Are you suggesting they should not?

>proclaim our devotion to this right, even enshrining it in our pitiful
>constitution; but in this one very very special case, and perhaps a few

Make up your mind - that "pitiful constitution" got Mr.
Zundel's convictions thrown out.

>I'll go you one better and include uninformed Canadians as well. Which is
>of course precisely the point. Does Zundel have the right to express
>unpopular opinions in Canada. The preponderance of public opinion against
>a set of beliefs is completely irrelevant to its right to be expressed.
>And, of course, if the deportation trick, like its false news predecessor,
>doesn't work--well, there's always a crowd-pleasing hate crimes charge
>waiting in the wings.

Of course he has that right - and he exercises it regularly. I
have no idea what that has to do with the CSIS statement that
said he was a threat to Canada's security, and neither does
anyone else - not until SIRC releases its report. I find it
ludicrous that his supporters make the claim that he will be
deported for his "views" regarding the Holocaust, when there
is absolutely no evidence whatsover to support that claim.

>I am again really struck by the oddity of Nizkor's demand that Zundel
>debate, given the legal consequences of anything he might say in his
>defence. A few letters to the editor from McVay & Company deploring the
>current round of legal chicanery might demonstrate your sincerity. Perhaps

Why should I deplore it? What makes it "chicanery," other than
your assertion that that is what it is? 

I don't know why CSIS said what it did, and I _want_ to know. 
If, as our primary security agency asserts, Mr. Zundel _is_ a 
threat to this country's security, then I will be delighted to 
see his departure. He is not a citizen, and, if CSIS is correct, 
he is most certainly not entitled to remain in Canada. 

>Zundel avoids debate for exactly the reasons you suggest: he's a coward,
>he knows he's lying, etc. That he avoids debate is immaterial. The crucial
>point to be acknowledged is that any debate on his part, as I mentioned
>above, is illegal in Canada, and it is for the expression of the same
>views which you now angrily urge him to ventilate that he risks

Nonsense. Les Griswold denies the Holocaust and calls it the
"hollow-cause." He hasn't been arrested, and neither has any
other Canadian (Boris comes to mind, from a few years back)
who has said such things on the net. Zundel avoids debate here
because he knows he'd be humiliated - that's what I think. (I
have already made my feelings about Canadian legal meddling on
the Internet crystal clear to Parliament, I assure you.)

>I won't bother with the CIRC issues you touch on. I'm sure everyone
>understands what's really happening and knows it has nothing to do with
>Canadian security.

How nice that you understand it, when SIRC itself is holding
hearings so that they might understand it. Perhaps you should
contact them and explain it to them, and save us all that

How do you KNOW it "has nothing to do with Canadian security?"
Do you have friends working for CSIS?

The Nizkor Project (Canada) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
    [Europe] (Under construction - permanently!)......unlearn

From: (Ken McVay OBC)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,
Subject: Ernst Zundel: Canadian Embarrassment
Date: 19 Jun 1996 13:18:50 -0700
Organization: The Nizkor Project
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <4q9nba$>
References: <4q0duu$>  <4q7323$> <4q9arg$>

In article <4q9arg$>, (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>I haven't clue what this has to do with the Holocaust, but it seems to
>me (and I get this from reading the NG) that Ken is all for Zundel's
>free speech. It seems that it is the Canadian Government that doesn't
>want Zundel. I don't beleive Ken McVay has any control over the
>citizenship of Canadians.

It has, of course, nothing to do with the Holocaust. That is
why the troll brought it up.

Mr. Zundel is an immigrant. He is entitled to citizenship if
he can demonstrate that he is a law-abiding resident. The top
security agency of the Canadian government has said that he is
_not_ a "law-abiding resident," but, in fact, a threat to
Canada's security, and thus ineligible for citizenship.

The agency which watch-dogs CSIS  - Canada's CIA/FBI - SIRC,
the Security Intelligence Review Committee is now holding
hearings and investigating the CSIS contention that Mr. Zundel
is a threat to our security. If they find that he is, he will
not obtain the citizenship he has requested.

That would probably lead to his deportation, and, under those
circumstances, I could only say "good riddance."

The Nizkor Project (Canada) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
    [Europe] (Under construction - permanently!)......unlearn

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