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From mkelley@U.Arizona.EDU Sat Apr 13 10:55:31 PDT 1996
Article: 30800 of alt.revisionism
From: Marty Kelley 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "10,000" extermination camps - "documented"
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 20:11:08 -0700
Organization: The University of Arizona
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References: <> <>  <>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
In-Reply-To: <> 

On Tue, 9 Apr 1996, tom moran wrote:

> Marty Kelley  wrote:
> >
> >Once again, Mr. Moran, you have twisted what Goldhagen wrote: he referred 
> >to 10,000 camps of various sizes for "the incarceration and destruction" 
> >of Jews and non-Jews.  In other words, he's talking about both the 
> >"extermination" camps (a fairly small number) AS WELL AS various "prison" 
> >camps (the overwhelming majority).  
> 	What I see in the Goldhagen review is what it says, "10,000
> camps for the incarceration and destruction of Jews and non-Jews". You
> say I have "twisted" the statement? 

Sigh.  If you really want to get into a petty semantic argument over 
whether Goldhagen's 10,000 number, as he uses it in his short NY Times 
op-ed piece, must necissarily refer to camps which operated for the 
purposes of BOTH "incarceration" AND "extermination," I suppose we can.  
I have explained my gloss of what Goldhagen almost certainly meant, and 
if you want to accuse him of loose usage in the article, go right ahead. 

For what it's worth, I just purchased Goldhagen's book, and here is a 
partial definition of "camp" as he uses it:

"A `camp' (to be distinguished from a prison) was any institution of 
incarceration that housed Jews or non-Jews on a permanent or 
semi-permanent basis, and which was not fundamentally subject to legal 
restraint. . . . camps differed in purpose and in the identities of their 
denizens.  These included camps with extermination facilities, 
concentration camps, work camps, transit camps, and ghettos, to name a 
few of the varieties"  (Goldhagen, _Hitler's Willing Executioners_, p. 170)

The rest of the chapter in which this definition appears explains the 
scope and various functions of the Nazi camp system in Europe.  The 
10,000 estimate also appears on p. 170, and in the context of the 
chapter, clearly refers to _all_ detention facilities, not solely the 
extermination camps.  

Goldhagen's primary source for numbers on camps in 
this section is Gudrun Schwarz's _Die nationalsocialistischen Lager_ 
(Frankfurt/M: Campus Verlag, 1990).  In his first reference to this book, 
Goldhagen notes that "the camps varied enormously in size, from the vast 
Auschwitz complex to those in which the Germans incarcerated but a few 
dozen people" (Goldhagen p. 526, n. 15).

> 	Okay go for the 1/2 %. I realize you will have to resort to
> some hedging, as you have already indicated in coping for "ghettos" as
> camps. 
> 	STAND BY. Marty Kelley is going for the 1/2 %.

Mark Van Alstine and John Morris have already posted lists of, 
respectively, 50 and 122 such camps.  If you insist that I reel off a 
list of place names too,  I suppose I can do so; seems to me that you may 
want to acquire the Schwarz book.

Marty Kelley  (mkelley@U.Arizona.EDU)

"We are now living in an era where the wall between news and 
entertainment has been eaten away like the cartilage 
in David Crosby's septum."
	--Al Franken, in _Rush Limbaugh Is a Big Fat Idiot_

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