From firstname.lastname@example.org Wed May 10 12:26:01 EDT 2006 Article: 1119146 of alt.revisionism Xref: sn-us alt.revisionism:1119146 rec.aviation.military:686792 Path: sn-us!sn-feed-sjc-01!sn-xt-sjc-12!sn-xt-sjc-01!sn-xt-sjc-13!supernews.com!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news1.optus.net.au!optus!news.uwa.edu.au!nntp.waia.asn.au!184.108.40.206.MISMATCH!newsfeed.iinet.net.au!newsfeed.iinet.net.au!per-qv1-newsstorage1.iinet.net.au!per-qv1-newsstorage1.iinet.net.au!per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au!not-for-mail From: "Geoffrey Sinclair"
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,rec.aviation.military References: <email@example.com> <firstname.lastname@example.org> <email@example.com> <firstname.lastname@example.org> <email@example.com> <firstname.lastname@example.org> <8FI7g.22164$fG3.14022@dukeread09> <6PmdnfUiS_s4_8LZ4p2dnA@comcast.com> Subject: Re: Jew Protest Messerschmitt Plaque Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 16:10:34 +1000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-RFC2646: Format=Flowed; Response Lines: 211 Message-ID: <email@example.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 220.127.116.11 X-Trace: 1147241440 per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au 16022 18.104.22.168 "John Falstaff" wrote in message news:6PmdnfUiS_s4_8LZ4p2dnA@comcast.com... > > "Dan" wrote in message > news:8FI7g.22164$fG3.14022@dukeread09... >> John Falstaff wrote: >>> "Geoffrey Sinclair" wrote in message >>> news:firstname.lastname@example.org... >> >>>> >>>> Try reading the refutation of the book, >>>> >>>> Title: Eisenhower and the German POWs : facts against falsehood / >>>> edited by Günter Bischof and Stephen E. Ambrose. >>>> Publisher: Baton Rouge : Louisiana State University Press, c1992. >>>> Description: xvii, 258 p. : ill. ; 24 cm. >>> >>> No such book appears in the catalog of my local library, which includes >>> not only the books it owns but all the titles their computer system is >>> aware of. >>> >>> How about supplying a source that anyone has actually heard of? >>> >>> >> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0807117587/103-6942245-5831869?v=glance&n=283155 > > Thanks for the link. Here's a review from that site: > ____________ > > Reviewer: Donauschwab (West-By-God-Virginia) - See all my reviews > > My ancestors left Germany in the mid 1700's to settle in eastern parts of > the Austro-Hungarian empire. Through wars, Mongol and Turkish attacks we > hung on. > In 1945 we were fleeing ahead of the Russian armies as they destroyed > everything in their path, until meeting the American armies heading east. > Many in our village were shot or hauled off to Siberia as slave labor. As > a youngster, I experienced the poverty and lack of food millions of > refugees suffered. > Readers should be aware of the inherent bias of both Ambrose and Bischof > as they are employees of the Eisenhower Center. In a subsequent book, > CRIMES AND MERCIES, Drawing on newly released secret Soviet > documents,Bacque refutes many of Bishop and Ambrose's objections.This is a > must read as it completes the picture of the destruction and rebuild of > Germany. > ____________ > > So much for Bishop and Ambrose, eh? Title: Eisenhower and the German POWs : facts against falsehood / edited by Günter Bischof and Stephen E. Ambrose. Publisher: Baton Rouge : Louisiana State University Press, c1992. Description: xvii, 258 p. : ill. ; 24 cm. Other details: Papers presented at a symposium held Nov. 1990 at the Eisenhower Center, University of New Orleans. Includes bibliographical references (p. -249) and index. ISBN: 0807117587 (cloth : alk. paper) There are 8 papers in the book, by surname the authors are Ambrose, Villa, Cowdrey, Trent, Overmans, Steininger, Barker and Bischof > Funny that you neglected to mention that they are employees of the > Eisenhower Center. Amazing that someone does not know Ambrose's career. No go look at the book, it is the proceedings of a conference called to discuss Bacque's book. Editor in this case means the person charged with collecting the papers presented and then publishing them, no text changes. No go look up the other authors. http://www.cbmh.ca/archive/00000202/01/cbmhbchm_v7n2cowdrey.pdf For example. > Or that in his later book, Bacque refutes their objections. Ah I see, having found 1 person who says Bacque refutes their objections you decide that is enough. So all we need to do is find 1 person that says the Nazis did mass murder and you are happy as well? Know what the later book tries to do? Claim a major famine occurred in post war Germany, that no one noticed until the lone researcher (trademark) came along. Bacque had to go double or nothing and came up with nothing. After all Bacque is trying to say between 1 in 10 Germans as a whole to 1 in 4 Germans under US jurisdiction died just after WWII and no one noticed. Here are the civilian death tolls per thousand people for east and west Germany, the eastern figures are from the East German 1955 yearbook. Year / West / East 1946 / 12.3 / 22.9 1947 / 11.6 / 19.0 1948 / 10.3 / 15.2 1949 / 10.2 / 13.4 1950 / 10.3 / 11.7 In numerical terms this meant the West German death toll was around 550,000 in 1945 including military deaths, and it declined to 479,373 in 1948 before beginning to rise. See Eisenhower and the PoWs. Usual Crimes and Mercies refutation follows, http://www.ghi-dc.org/bulletinF98/bulletin_f98 "Fact or Fiction? The Historical Profession and James Bacque" Roundtable discussion at the Annual Meeting of the German Studies Association, Salt Lake City, October 8-11, 1998. Sponsored by the GHI. Participants: Günter Bischof (University of New Orleans), Dewey A. Browder (Austin Peay State University), Wilfried Mausbach (GHI), Hans-Jürgen Schröder (University of Giessen), Christof Strauß (University of Heidelberg), Richard D. Wiggers (Georgetown University). The topic of discussion for this panel centered around James Bacque's allegation, made in his recent, controversial book Crimes and Mercies, that American authorities deliberately starved to death as many as nine million German civilians after World War II. Wilfried Mausbach (GHI) challenged Bacque's contention that the infamous Morgenthau Plan informed American actions. He demonstrated first that the notion of turning Germany into a huge "farm" was never part of American postwar planning; second, that the United States's occupation directive (JCS 1067) was not cast in Morgenthau's mold; and third, that the negative elements of JCS 1067 were deliberately postponed, and thereby in effect dismissed, by Military Government officers in the field. Instead of evaluating the available evidence, James Bacque's dramaturgy pits villains against heroes and surrenders scholarly differentiation to populism. Günter Bischof (University of New Orleans) viewed Bacque's thesis as part of the trend toward a "paranoid style" in writing recent history. This style is characterized by five elements: the image of a huge conspiracy, a self-bestowed duty to save civilization from apocalypse, a manichean worldview of absolute good versus absolute evil, the conviction that traitors make history, and the amassing of evidence to prove a preconceived thesis. Bischof found traces of all these elements in Bacque's writing, and he bemoaned the publishing industry's zest for "conspiracy history." Christof Strauß (University of Heidelberg) examined Bacque's thesis that approximately one million German POWs perished in American and French camps by taking a close look at two Prisoner of War Temporary Enclosures (PWTEs) in Heilbronn. Strauß found that conditions in these camps indeed did not meet the requirements of the Geneva Convention of 1929. However, to interpret this as evidence of a centrally planned and implemented policy of starvation neglects overall conditions in Germany and Europe in the wake of the war and overestimates to a considerable extent the occupation authorities' scope of action. Strauß proved that, contrary to Bacque's assertion, the Americans did allow aid to be delivered to the inmates by representatives of the German churches, and the International Red Cross also was allowed to visit the camps. Moreover, between May and December 1945 some 300,000 POWs passed through the Heilbronn PWTEs, and death lists show that only 283 of them died. This seems to indicate not only that Bacque's research was poor but also that his overall estimates of deaths are way too high. Dewey A. Browder (Austin Peay State University) corroborated this information. He showed that Bacque manipulated statistics by adding expellees and repatriated POWs to an early 1946 census that actually already included more than 1.5 million expellees and repatriates in addition to the unrepatriated POWs. In counting these people twice, Bacque finds that there should have been nearly 74 million people in Germany in 1950 and cries mass murder when that year's census falls short by 6 million. Professor Browder explained that he personally pointed out this mistake to Bacque while the Canadian author was revising his manuscript for publication in English. Bacque, however, failed to correct his information. Finally, Richard D. Wiggers (Georgetown University) provided an analysis of eyewitness accounts by authors who were neither Germans nor U.S. Military Government employees. He found that these third-party observers reported and often criticized a stern allied policy toward the German people. Thus, if there was, as Bacque alleges, a conspiracy to hide the truth, it must have failed miserably. Moreover, a close, comprehensive, and unbiased reading of independent eyewitness accounts suggests that a mass death of millions of Germans by starvation did not occur in postwar Germany. The lively discussion, moderated by Hans-Jürgen Schröder (University of Giessen), addressed James Bacque's motivation for writing fiction disguised as fact. It was pointed out that Bacque obviously really believes he has discovered something real and is encouraged by people in Germany who suffered after 1945 and who feel that their experience of victimization has gotten short shrift in the history of this period. However, his neglect of evidence suggests either that he is unable to acknowledge criticism or that he willfully ignores information in an effort to cash in on a sensationalist thesis. The latter supposition led participants to discuss the quixotic nature of efforts by professional historians to challenge populist histories promoted by a sensation-driven publishing industry. Some also wondered whether even the most ludicrous claims merit consideration. There seemed to be an overall agreement, however, that historians have a duty to correct gross distortions and refute wild allegations." Geoffrey Sinclair Remove the nb for email.
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