The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

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Last-Modified: 2000/11/05



Q. Do you know the name of Rauff?

A. Yes.

Q. What was he at that time

A. Rauff at that time was in charge of the motor cars
belonging to the Security Service, as far as I remember
today. I should like to say that at that time I had no
direct connection with the Central Office in Berlin, as the
Hauptamt of the SD was so organized at that time that
between the lower divisions and the Head Office there was an
organisational set-up, Oberabschnitt, which was abolished in
September, 1939.

COLONEL SMIRNOV: Mr. President, the American prosecution
kindly gave me the text of a document already submitted to
the Tribunal which shows that orders concerning death vans
were addressed specifically to Herr Rauff. These are the
documents which I am now passing on to the Tribunal. These
documents have been. submitted already. I am merely
reminding you of them.

                                                  [Page 207]


Q. And now, witness, I should also like you to look at the
circle showing "Einsatzkommando" in the chart. Do you
recognize the names mentioned there?

A. I do not know yet which names you mean.

Q. I am talking about the last circle, Einsatzkommando 2, 3,
8, 9, and others. Have you found the place?

A. Is that another document?

Q. No; that is precisely the same document.

A. On the manuscript document which I have, I can see no
such circles. It must be another document attached to
another letter.

Q. Please look at the circles around "Einsatzkommando." Do
you recognize any of the names within those circles?

A. On the document which is appended to the one signed by
Obersturmfuehrer Seitl.

Q. Do you recognize the names there? Particularly, did you
know Gottschalk?

A. No.

Q. Dr. Lehmann?

A. No.

Q. Schultze?

A. I gather that there must be a confusion of names there,
and it should be "Schultz."

Q. That is right, "Schultz."

A. Yes, I know. Here we have "Schultze."

Q. That is a mistake. I have it as "Schultz."

A. I know Schultz, but not Schultze.

Q. Was he a collaborator of the SD?

A. I think that he was at that time Stabspolizei Chief
somewhere in Northern Germany.

Q. Do you know Biermann?

A. I do not know him personally, but I have heard his name.

Q. Who was he?

A. I beg your pardon. I think that he was then a chief of
the Secret State Police. Later he became Inspector of the
Security Police and the SD.

Q. Do you know Heinrich?

A. I do not know Dr. Heinrich.

Q. You do not know him?

A. Was he the commander of Einsatzkommando 10?

Q. No, Einsatzkommando 4, Hoehnscheid.

A. I did not know him.

Q. Hoffmann?

A. No.

Q. I do suppose that you knew Stahlecker, though?

A. I knew him by name but I did not know him personally.

Q. You are acquainted with the post he held, though?

A. I think he was then inspector of the Security Police, or
Stabspolizeileiter or Oberabschnittsfuehrer, but I cannot
quite remember what he was.

Q. And do you know Guenther?

A. Guenther, if I remember right, was at that time inspector
in Berlin.

Q. Inspector of SD, was he not?

A. There were no SD inspectors at that time; there were only
inspectors of the Security Police.

COLONEL SMIRNOV: I have no more questions about the chart,
Mr. President. May I ask some other questions?

                                                  [Page 208]

THE PRESIDENT: Wait a minute - These letters "EK" in the
circle at the bottom mean Einsatzkommando, I suppose, do
they? And will you tell the Tribunal What the purpose of the
chart is? What is the organization which it is supposed to

THE WITNESS: The translation did not come through. Could you
repeat your question, Mr. President?

THE PRESIDENT: What is the organization which the chart is
supposed to define?

THE WITNESS: I suppose that it is the preparation of some
plan of Gruppenfuehrer Heydrich to employ the offices of the
Security Police and the SD, which were under his
jurisdiction in case of possible complications with
Czechoslovakia. The abbreviation "EGA" will mean
Einsatzkommando (task force unit). Actually, later, when the
German troops marched into Czechoslovakia units of the
Security Police and of the SD went along which, just like
the Einsatzkommandos and the Einsatzgruppen in the East,
were mobile units of a very special nature which had been
newly set up and had entirely new tasks, and which were
dissolved later when the State Police office in Prague and
the SD Department Prague were organized.

THE PRESIDENT: Well, I am not concerned with whether they
were later dissolved. Heydrich, I suppose, was in command of
the whole of the SD, was he not?

THE WITNESS: Yes, Heydrich was head of the SD Main Office
and at the same time head of the Security Police, both
offices personally united in him.

THE PRESIDENT: Was Stahlecker a member of the Information
Branch of the SD that you are speaking of?

THE WITNESS: I cannot state that for certain. If I remember
correctly, Stahlecker had at that time some function in East

THE PRESIDENT: You said just now, I thought, that Stahlecker
was in Berlin?

THE WITNESS: In East Prussia at that time. In my opinion,
Guenther was in Berlin. His name was also mentioned

THE PRESIDENT: Yes. Well, was he a member of the SD
Information Service?

THE WITNESS: Yes, I think that he was then head of the SD,
Berlin Oberabschnitt (Oberabschnittsfuehrer). I cannot say
it with certainty.

THE PRESIDENT: Ehrlanger, was Ehrlanger also a member of the
SD Information Service?

THE WITNESS: I do not know in what office Ehrlanger was then
employed. I heard his name only later when he became head of
Office I.

THE PRESIDENT: What about Rauff?

THE WITNESS: Rauff was then in' charge of the motor
transportation corps of the SD head office, but here, too, I
cannot state for certain whether

THE PRESIDENT: What about the Information Service of the SD,
was he a member? Was Rauff a member of the SD Information

THE WITNESS: He was head of a technical department in the SD
head office. In the SD head office at that time, which
handled foreign information and domestic information, there
were several technical offices in the central head office
No. I which were at the disposal of the entire Amt.

THE PRESIDENT: Well, what about his functions? One of his
functions was to work in the Information Service of the SD,
in the Domestic Information Service of the SD?

                                                  [Page 209]

THE WITNESS: He was also in charge of the motor cars for the
Domestic Information Service.

THE PRESIDENT: Yes, but you can answer the question yes or
no. Was it part of his function to work in the Domestic
Information Service of the SD?

THE WITNESS: Not in the Information Service as such, as far
as I know. No, he only -

THE PRESIDENT: Well, he had no competence, as you call it,
in the Domestic Information Service of the SD?

THE WITNESS: As far as I can remember, he was only in charge
of the motor transportation of the SD Head Office; also for
the Domestic Information Service.

THE PRESIDENT: Does not that chart show that the SD was
working in transport co-ordination with the Gestapo?

THE WITNESS: In my opinion the chart only shows that the
head of the organizations was prepared, in case of a march
into Czechoslovakia, to employ men of both organizations

THE PRESIDENT: And do not these documents show that your
comment about the first document was inaccurate and that
that document was being used by Schellenberg in September,
1938, for the purpose of organising the SD in

THE WITNESS: I think it is impossible that this document
should have been used, because otherwise the date would have
been filled in; and the Roman figures at the end of the
document would have been indicated. Whether another draft
was made later and submitted to Schellenberg, that I do not

THE PRESIDENT: Well, you see that the first document is
headed Roman III, Arabic 225. The letter to Dr. Best is also
headed Roman III, 225, and it refers to the suggestion which
is no doubt contained in that document; and the chart itself
is also headed III, 225.

THE WITNESS: Yes; I suppose that some other draft was made,
for this is months later. This draft was almost certainly
not used because then the Roman figures would under all
circumstances have been indicated. In any case, the Roman
figure III of that time had nothing to do with the later
organization III, because the department from which the
accused Office III originated was Central Department II/2.

COLONEL SMIRNOV: Mr. President, in connection with the
witness's replies on the fact that he does not know whether
the confidential persons of the SD made up lists of persons
who were to be annihilated or mobilised forcibly or else
arrested and placed in concentration camps, I would like
your permission to submit another short document pertaining
to another country, to Poland, which contains the
instructions of the Blockstellenleiter of the SD in Poland
to his trusted collaborators. I ask your permission to read
this document into the record.

THE WITNESS: May I say one more word? There is nothing in my
document about annihilation or concentration camps.

COLONEL SMIRNOV: You will now have the document before you.

May I quote the document? It is USSR 522. I quote:

  "Security Service of the Reichsfuehrer SS, Block Station
  Mogilno, 24th August, 1944." Translating verbatim. "To
  Trusted persons. Subtitle The preparation of the lists of
  Poles." The text follows: "I have repeatedly pointed out
  to you the necessity of paying special attention to the
  Poles. For that reason, I am giving below the speech of
  the Reichsfuehrer of the SS, Himmler, delivered on 15th,
  March 1940, at the meeting of the concentration camp
  commanders in former Poland, and according to the
  directives given in that speech, I ask you to submit to me
  the list of names of all the Poles

                                                  [Page 210]

  concerned." Extract from speech, I quote: " For that
  reason, all our collaborators, both men and women, should
  consider it their most important and urgent task to
  prevent all unscrupulous leaders of the Polish people from
  exercising their activity. You, as commanders of the
  concentration camps, will know best how to fulfil this
  task. All skilled workers of Polish origin are to be
  utilised in our war industry; later all Poles will
  disappear from the face of the earth. In fulfilling this
  very responsible task, you must, within the prescribed
  limits of time, exterminate the Poles. I give this
  directive to all the camp commanders. The hour is drawing
  closer when every German will have to prove himself. For
  that reason, the great German nation should understand
  that its most important task now is to exterminate all the
  Poles. I expect all my trusted collaborators to report to
  me immediately all Polish grumblers (Miesmacher) and
  defeatists. For such a task we must also utilize children
  and aged persons, who can help us considerably, because of
  their so-called friendly attitude towards the Poles.
  Extract from Himmler's speech on 15th March 1940. Heil
  SS Hauptsturmfuehrer
  (Signature illegible)"


Q. I would like to ask you now, after seeing this document,
whether you still deny that the workers of the SD in the
occupied territories trained and oriented all persons they
could use to make up lists of such persons that were to be

A. Yes, I deny that, especially as I cannot state whether
this document is a genuine one or not.

Q. This document was captured by the Polish Army in Mogilno
in the building of the SD.

A. I take, for example, the words "camp commander meeting"
as being absolutely impossible. I do not see what it could
refer to and it seems to me impossible to ascertain what
"Polish grumblers and defeatists" might mean. It seems to me
absolutely self-evident that the Poles hoped that Germany
would lose the war.

Q. I am not asking you to make propagandistic speeches on
the subject of Poland, I am asking you something quite
different. I am asking you this question: Are you still
denying the fact that the SD compelled those collaborating
with it to make lists of persons to be annihilated?

A. Yes, I deny that.

COLONEL SMIRNOV: I have no more questions.

THE PRESIDENT: What evidence is there that this document was
found in the SD Headquarters?

COLONEL SMIRNOV: It was not found in the SD Headquarters.
That was not properly translated.

THE PRESIDENT: Your answer did not come through.

COLONEL SMIRNOV: This was not found at the central
headquarters, Mr. President. It was not translated to you
correctly if that is what was said. The document was found
by the Polish Army -

THE PRESIDENT: What was translated to me was that it was
captured by the Polish Army at the SD Headquarters. Is that

COLONEL SMIRNOV: That is right, but not at the central
headquarters of the SD for Poland but at the headquarters in
the Block Station of Mogilno.

THE PRESIDENT: I did not say anything about the central
headquarters. All I want to know is what evidence there is
that it was found at the headquarters of the SD.

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