Archive/File: imt/tgmwc/tgmwc-20/tgmwc-20-193.02 Last-Modified: 2000/11/05 Q. May I say something? THE PRESIDENT: Just wait a minute. Just wait a minute. Colonel Smirnov, the Tribunal would like you to read on from the place you had got to in Paragraph V, so that the document may be translated and translated now at once. You had got just to the place where it speaks of files, and at the end of "Files," Paragraph 2 - COLONEL SMIRNOV: That is right, Mr. President. Do you want me to start reading from point (b) or from point (c)? THE PRESIDENT: Paragraph 3. COLONEL SMIRNOV: Yes."Establishing of duplicate local files for each region - " THE PRESIDENT: That is not what I meant. You had read Paragraph V, Roman V, down to the end of (2), the last words of which are " - deprived of passports," etc.The next paragraph is (3), small (3), Arabic (3) - "It is imperative to speed up - " COLONEL SMIRNOV: That is right, Mr. President. THE PRESIDENT: We want the whole of the document from there. COLONEL SMIRNOV: Yes, Mr. President. "It is imperative to speed up the obtaining of necessary economic and political materials, such as maps, dictionaries, stationery and office supplies. 5. Allocated members and agents of SD have to undergo a training course in order to get acquainted with the language and with the general conditions of life in Czechoslovakia. However, it might be advisable to train only persons appointed for the subsections as heads of foreign branches and managers of enterprises in order not to allow the number of persons becoming acquainted with the preparations to be too great. 6. Release from military conscription of the appointed persons. 7. Elaboration of plans, (a) for carrying out the task mentioned in Paragraph III; (b) for notification in due time, of the persons mentioned in Paragraph III5, II, I d and II c before invasion in order to give them the possibility to hide themselves to avoid arrest and deportation and to enable them to fulfil their missions. [Page 203] 8. Providing necessary passes in due time for entering zones of operation in order to secure a free passage and first-class living and working accommodations." Shall I read Paragraph VI, Section VI, Mr. President? THE PRESIDENT: Yes. COLONEL SMIRNOV: VI. "Miscellaneous. It is suggested that wherever possible only militarily trained people be employed, as: 1. In the initial stages guerrilla and partisan warfare will probably have to be reckoned with. 2. For that reason the following weapons will be necessary: carbines, pistols, hand grenades, gas-masks, and if possible sub-machine guns. 3. Relations in the zone of military operation demand appropriate conduct. VII - THE PRESIDENT: You have read VII already. But you had better go back now to III, Paragraph 5, which I think you have not read and which has just been referred to. COLONEL SMIRNOV: Yes, Mr. President. "Training of special agents (beforehand) from (mentioned in Item II - Id) persons of German extraction living in Czechoslovakia who are to take over the duties of secretaries of the most important enterprises for the purpose of preventing sabotage on the part of Czech organizations and offices." THE PRESIDENT: Now I think you had better go back to II, Paragraph 2a, "training of suitable persons." THE PRESIDENT: Wait a minute. Is the interpreting division ready? INTERPRETER: Yes. THE PRESIDENT: The interpreting division had better have the original documents in German and read the passages which I will indicate to them. I think you can go on, Colonel Smirnov, because this would be checked over in the translating division. The transcripts will be checked over against the original document .... Now, you were reading II, Paragraph 2a, beginning with the words, "Training of suitable persons," were you not? COLONEL SMIRNOV: That is right, Mr. President. May I continue? THE PRESIDENT: Yes. COLONEL SMIRNOV: "Besides" - interpreting verbatim from the Russian text - "besides staff members of the SD we should also try to employ honorary workers, because German agencies should not be deprived of proper personnel, and other frontier regions should take similar measures to provide for the necessary personnel. b. Measures concerning Item II is are necessary for it may be found inexpedient to take people from the frontier regions for these new organizations, as an increase of work in these regions is expected anyhow." THE PRESIDENT: I do not think you need read that. The Tribunal directs that the original documents as read into the transcripts, the shorthand notes; shall be checked over by the translating division against the original German text. COLONEL SMIRNOV: Yes, Mr. President, we shall do it today. THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal directs that the original German document shall be re-translated into the other languages, namely, into English, into French, into Russian. COLONEL SMIRNOV: Yes, Mr. President. [Page 204] THE PRESIDENT: Now will you turn to the document which follows the document you have been reading and which appears to be some sort of letter from an Oberfuehrer of the SS. It is addressed to Dr. Best. COLONEL SMIRNOV: Yes, Mr. President. Shall I read the whole document or just the first paragraph? THE PRESIDENT: You had better read the first paragraph, anyhow. COLONEL SMIRNOV: 2253. To SS Oberfuehrer, Dr. Best, Berlin. The contents follows: Introduction of the Einsatz of Gestapo and of the SD, Reichsfuehrer SS on the territory of Czechoslovakia. Text: "The suggestion to introduce the Gestapo and SD of which 12 detachments were provided for along the Czechoslovakian frontier will be subject to some modification as a result of the new situation arising from the fact that the Czechs may concede the Sudeten territory. Since some of the detachments will not be employed in the districts which will become German, we offer the following changes." Shall I continue the quotation, Mr. President? THE PRESIDENT: You do not need to read the rest. But is that document dated? COLONEL SMIRNOV: No, Mr. President, there is no date on the document. THE PRESIDENT: What you stated then did not come through. COLONEL SMIRNOV: There is no date here, but there is another date on another document, which I would like the Tribunal's permission to submit. The document which is addressed to Dr. Best has no date, but the next document has a date, and it is this document that I consider extremely important. I would like the Tribunal's permission to submit it. It is a very short document, signed by Schellenberg. "Berlin-1, 13th September, 1938, State Chancellery 1-113, to the Departmental Chief, III, SS Oberfuehrer Jost or his deputy. Contents: Organisational Chart of the Einsatzkommandos, Operational Command." Omitting the next sentence. "According to the regulations of the above-mentioned letter, I enclose herewith a photostatic copy of the Einsatzkommandos Organisational Chart. The Chart has been prepared by Department C according to the enclosed form. (Signed) The Chief of the Central Department I, 1aB SS Hauptsturmfuehrer Schellenberg." Mr. President, I should like you at this point to look at the chart which is attached, and which at that time already reproduced very correctly the organization of the Einsatzkommandos. You have all the details of the organization there showing eleven different units. Among those who are the leading collaborators of the Central Headquarters, in the second column, you can find that at that time the proposed chief of the gas chambers was included, the man to whom later all the reports about the activity of the gas chambers and the special death wagons were directed. They have been read here before. THE PRESIDENT: I do not see that on the chart. COLONEL SMIRNOV: It is in the second column. THE PRESIDENT: Show me where. Where is it? COLONEL SMIRNOV (indicates.) THE PRESIDENT: Yes. But cannot you show me where it is? COLONEL SMIRNOV: Yes, Mr. President. There it is. (Indicating.) (A document was handed to the President.) [Page 205] THE PRESIDENT: But, Colonel Smirnov, there must be some words on the document which indicate what you are saying. COLONEL SMIRNOV: I think, Mr. President, that what happened is to be explained by the inaccuracies of the translation; that is, by misunderstandings here. You see, I just drew your attention to the name Herr Rauff, the man who was mentioned there, to whom the reports about gas chambers and other methods of killing people were directed. And there he is. That post had been prepared and foreseen in that chart. THE PRESIDENT: What is his name? COLONEL SMIRNOV: Rauff, Mr. President. As early as 1939 we see his name and the post which he was to occupy. This is why I want to draw your attention to that. May I continue the interrogation? THE PRESIDENT: Colonel Smimov, the Tribunal would like to have photostatic copies of this document. COLONEL SMIRNOV: Yes, Mr. President; we have ten copies. THE PRESIDENT: We anticipate that you are going to give the document to the witness and examine him upon it. COLONEL SMIRNOV: Yes, Mr. President. The witness has it before him already. THE WITNESS: Yes; I have a photostatic copy here. COLONEL SMIRNOV: Mr. President, I should like to ask the witness the following question BY COLONEL SMIRNOV: Q. Witness, tell me this. Did not the confidential agents of the SD make and keep a list of persons who were to be annihilated, or exhausted by hard labour? A. Is the question being asked with reference to this document? Q. In connection both with the document and with your knowledge of the situation. A. I do not know whether lists were compiled. COLONEL SMIRNOV: Mr. President, I am asking your permission to submit THE PRESIDENT: The witness has not answered. Will you answer the question? THE WITNESS: I said that I did not know whether such lists were made. COLONEL SMIRNOV: Mr. President, I request your permission to submit the second German document which does not concern the leading man of the SD. THE PRESIDENT: Colonel Smirnov, we wanted you to ask the witness some questions so as to explain the chart. We have only just seen the chart. Have you no questions to ask on the chart? COLONEL SMIRNOV: Yes, Mr. President, I will ask these questions. BY COLONEL SMIRNOV: Q. Do you have the chart before you, witness? A. I have the photostatic copy of the manuscript chart. (A document was handed to the witness.) BY COLONEL SMIRNOV: Q. You will now have the original of the chart. Do you recognize the names of the collaborators mentioned in the chart? A. Yes. Q. Who was Jost? [Page 206] A. Jost was the chief of Office III of the Foreign Information Service in the former SD Head Office, and he had been the first chief in Division VI of the Foreign Intelligence Service. Q. Anyway, in 1938 he was a member of the SD? A. Yes, he was a member of the SS Special Department, SD, and was chief of the Central Department III of the SD Head Office. THE PRESIDENT: Wait a minute, I thought you told us the SS had got no connection with the SD. You are now telling us that this man was head of the SS Department, SD, are you not? THE WITNESS: There must have been a false interpretation. Mr. President, may I repeat my answer? THE PRESIDENT: Yes, repeat your answer. THE WITNESS: Jost was the head of Central Department III, Foreign Intelligence Service, in the former SD Head Office. He was later the first Division Head of Office VI of the Foreign Intelligence Service, the predecessor of Gruppenfuehrer Schellenberg, who has already been heard by this Tribunal. BY COLONEL SMIRNOV: Q. Are you acquainted with the name of Ehrlinger? A. Yes. Q. Who was he? A. I know Ehrlinger only from a later period. He was the last No. 1 Division Head of the Reichsicherheitshauptamt. Q. He was also a member of the SD, was he not? A. He also belonged to the SS Sonderformation SD. Q. Do you know the name of Rauff? Do you recognize that? THE PRESIDENT: The translation came through then to us that he was a member of the SS-SD. THE WITNESS: He belonged to the SS Special SD Formation, about which we spoke in detail yesterday; that is to say, the merger of SS members who were in the Security Service, in the Gestapo and in the Criminal Police; that is to say, not all members of these, but only those who belonged to the SS, and also those who were honorary co-workers belonging to the SS, and also some other officers who worked with the Sicherheitspolizei - for instance, the border police and customs investigations officials arid later a number of Landrate, too. COLONEL, SMIRNOV: May I continue, Mr. President? THE PRESIDENT: Go on.
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