The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

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Last-Modified: 1999/11/27

Q. And you knew of that order?

A. I did not know of the order; it was only through these
examples which were brought to my notice that it became
clear to me that this transportation was taking place. I
never read the order myself, nor even heard of it, because I
had nothing to do with it.

Q. It came to your attention that Jews were being thrown
into concentration camps merely because they were Jews?

A. In this case I am not speaking of concentration camps,
but it was ordered that people were to be brought to
collection camps.

Q. Not concentration camps, but special camps? Where were
they going from there?

A. That I do not know.

Q. And where was this special camp that you speak of?

A. I do not know where they were to be taken. I was told
they were to be taken away.

Q. But neither you nor Goering had any suspicion that if
they were taken to concentration camps any harm would come
to them, did you?

A. I know nothing about what took place in the concentration

Q. Now did you not hear about the concentration camps, and
was not the reason of your saving these people from going to
them, that the people who went there were maltreated?

A. I must reiterate that I freed people from the Gestapo who
were not yet in the concentration camp.

Q. What would the Gestapo take them into custody for if not
to be sent to the concentration camp?

A. What purpose the Gestapo was pursuing with these arrests
I do not know.

Q. But you intervened to save them from the Gestapo without
even finding out whether the Gestapo had cause for arresting

A. If the Gestapo arrested anyone, then they must have had
something against him.

Q. But you made no inquiry into that, did you?

A. I have already said it was generally known that these
people were taken to collection camps, not concentration
camps. It was known, many German people knew, that they were
to be taken away. They knew that the people were taken to
work camps, and in these work camps they were put to work.

Q. Forced labour?

A. It was just ordinary work. I knew, for instance, that in
Lodz the people worked in the textile industry.

Q. And where were they kept, while they were doing that

A. I cannot say, for I do not know.

Q. They were in a camp, were they not?

A. I cannot tell you about that for I do not know.

Q. You would not know about that?

A. I have no idea.

Q. What is the difference between a work camp and a
concentration camp? You have drawn that distinction.

A. A work camp is a camp in which people were housed without
their being in any way ill-treated.

                                                  [Page 238]

Q. And a concentration camp is where they are ill-treated?
Is that your testimony?

A. Yes, I can only tell you that now because in the meantime
I discovered that through the Press and through my
imprisonment. At that time I still did not know it. I
learned that from the newspapers. I was a prisoner of war in
England for quite a while, and I read about it in the
English Press.

Q. You spoke of collection camps, that many people knew they
were being taken to collection camps to be taken away. Where
were they being taken?

A. I do not know where they went from there.

Q. Did you ever inquire?

A. No, I never inquired.

Q. You were adjutant to the Number Two Man in Germany, were
you not?

A. Yes.

Q. And you never ventured to ask him about the concentration

A. No, I never spoke to him on that subject.

Q. The only instruction you had was to get everybody out
that you could?

A. Where a request or a complaint was made, I followed those
cases up, and in those cases I assisted.

Q. You knew that Hermann Goering was a close co-worker with
Himmler, did you not?

A. I did not know that he was a fellow worker with Himmler,
because he never worked with him directly. Himmler
frequently came for discussions with Hermann Goering, but
these were private conversations just between the two.

Q. And you knew that he was not only a friend, but that he
had aided Kaltenbrunner to his post when Kaltenbrunner came
into office, did you not?

A. No, that I did not know.

Q. You did not know that?

A. I did not know that Reichsmarshal Goering recommended
Kaltenbrunner for his office. My activity was confined
simply to the military sector. I was military adjutant to
the Reichsmarshal. I had nothing to do with these matters.

Q. Did you have anything to do with the procedure of making
full Aryans out of half-Jews?

A. On the question of mixed blood, requests concerning the
Luftwaffe came to me, and in fact, officers, according to
the regulations, would have to be dismissed if they were of
mixed blood. In many cases the Reichsmarshal gave
instructions that these officers should not be dismissed.

Q. What was done about it?

A. In these cases the Chief of the Personnel Office was
instructed not to dismiss these officers.

Q. And in some cases some kind of an order was made, was it
not, that they were full Aryans, notwithstanding Jewish

A. At the moment I can remember no such case.

Q. You spoke of the requests for help from Goering coming
from broad masses of the people, and those requests were
submitted to his staff. Is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. And who was the head of that staff?

A. At the head of that staff stood the Chief of Staff, Dr.

Q. How many assistants did he have?

A. There were three divisions: The Press section, with Dr.
Goerner in charge, and the private secretariat. There were
three sections.

Q. And which of these sections handled the people's requests
for relief from arrest?

A. Dr. Witzbach and Dr. Goerner were concerned with that.

Q. To whom did they talk about these matters, do you know?

A. These gentlemen, as well as myself, submitted these
matters to the Reichsmarshall.

                                                  [Page 239]

Q. So that he was kept fully informed of what you did and of
what they did?

A. Please repeat the question.

Q. The Reichsmarshal was kept fully informed of these
applications to you and to the other sections?

A. He was informed from my section.

Q. And as I understand you he never failed to give his
assistance to any one of the applications that was made to
him, so far as you know?

A. As regards requests addressed to my office or to me
personally he never refused assistance and, actually, help
was always given.

Q. And never inquired into the guilt or innocence of the
person he was helping?

A. They were innocent; that was clearly established.

Q. Now, you were present on 20th July at the bomb explosion,
as I understand from your direct testimony?

A. On 20th July I was present at that discussion and stood
very near to the bomb.

Q. Where was Hermann Goering on that day?

A. Hermann Goering was in his headquarters on that day,
about seventy kilometres from the Fuehrer's Headquarters.

Q. Only seventy kilometres away; is that right? And at what
time were you instructed to represent him at that meeting?

A. I was not instructed to represent him at this meeting. I
took part in this conference as in any other as a listener.
I had no such orders to represent Goering, to represent him
in the Fuehrer Headquarters. I was merely in the Fuehrer
Headquarters to inform him of what went on there.

Q. You represented him to listen, but not to talk; is that

A. I did not say, very much during those years; I was simply
a listener and was to inform him as to what took place at
the conference, that would interest him in his capacity as

Q. How far in advance of that meeting were you instructed to

A. At this meeting? On 20th July? On 19th July I was on a
special commission, sent to the Muenster Camp to take part
in the review of an Italian division. On 20th July, at noon,
I came by air to the Fuehrer Headquarters, gave Hitler a
military communication, and Hitler said to me: "Come and
discuss the situation." I did not want to go but I went with
him and after fifteen minutes the attempted assassination
took place.

Q. Who sent you with the message? Whose message was it that
you were delivering?

A. I was commissioned at that time by Reichsmarshal Goering,
in Muenster, to attend the review of the Italian division
there and to tell Field-Marshal Graziani that the men in
this division were to be used to command flak guns. After
Field-Marshal Graziani had declared himself in disagreement
with this, I was obliged to go to the Fuehrer Headquarters
by air. It had been proposed that I should go by Mussolini's
special train which was in Muenster, and on the night of
19th to 20th . . .

Q. Answer my question, witness. Just answer the question,
please, and you will save us a great deal of time. Whose
message were you carrying to the Fuehrer?

A. I brought the message that Graziani was not disposed to
handing over these soldiers of the Italian division.

Q. And before you started for the Fuehrer Headquarters, you
communicated with Goering about it, did you not?

A. Before my departure, when I flew to Muensterlager, that
was a few days before, I spoke to him, and when I returned,
before reporting to the Fuehrer, I telephoned Hermann
Goering in his headquarters and gave him the same message.

Q. And did he instruct you to go to the Fuehrer's
Headquarters at that time and give the message to the

                                                  [Page 240]

A. This trip from Muensterlager I made on my own initiative
because it was important to Adolf Hitler to know of this
information before Mussolini, who was expected to arrive at
the Fuehrer Headquarters at three o'clock on 20th July.

Q. As I understand you, Goering wanted a peaceful outcome of
the negotiations at Munich?

A. He said that to me several times.

Q. And he was highly pleased with the outcome that was
achieved there?

A. He was very pleased. I emphasized that before when I said
that when he came from the conference room, he said
spontaneously: "That is peace."

Q. And when you say that Goering wanted peace with Poland he
also wanted that same kind of a peace, did he not?

A. I did not speak with him regarding peace with Poland.

Q. Did he send someone or induce Hitler to take someone to
Munich, in order to counter-check Ribbentrop?

A. All I know personally on this subject is as follows: Here
in imprisonment, Captain Wiedemann told me that Hermann
Goering had expressed the wish to take von Neurath with him,
and Wiedemann told me that Hitler had granted that wish.

Q. Now you were interrogated by the United States about this
subject before Wiedemann got here, were you not?

A. Before?

Q. Before Wiedemann was brought here.

A. I was not interrogated on this subject - the Munich
Agreement and von Neurath.

Q. Were you interrogated on 6th November, 1945, and did you
not then say that Goering used very harsh words about
Ribbentrop and asked Hitler to take Neurath to Munich with
him, in order to have a representative present? Did you not
say that to the interrogators of the United States?

A. I cannot remember at the moment. If that  is in the
record then it must be so.

Q. This meeting as to which you have - oh, by the way, after
Munich you know that Goering gave his word of honour to the
Czechs that there would be no further aggression against
them, do you not?

A. Please repeat the question?

Q. You know that after Munich, when Goering was pleased with
the outcome, he gave his word of honour that there would be
no further aggression against the Czechs. Did you know that?

A. No, I did not know that.

Q. This meeting that took place in London, I mean the
meeting that took place when the Englishmen were present . .

A. In Husum, yes.

Q. Who was the Swedish person who was present?

A. Herr Dahlerus was the Swede who was present.

Q. Who were the English who were present?

A. There were six to eight English economic experts. The
names I do not know.

Q. And at that time - by the way, have you fixed the time of
that? What was the date?

A. I cannot say precisely. It was the beginning of August.

Q. Was it not August the 7th?

A. I cannot say.

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