The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

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Archive/File: imt/tgmwc/tgmwc-04/tgmwc-04-32.08
Last-Modified: 1999/09/25


                                                        [Page 215]

Q. After you sent your reports to Berlin did the conditions under
which the transports were made remain the same?

A. Nothing happened, as usual. Always long reports were written,
but ,conditions did not improve at all.

Q. You indicated that some French generals had been put to death
shortly before the liberation of the camp. Do you know the names
of these generals?

A. Unfortunately I have forgotten these names. I can remember only
and I was told so by the prisoners who were kept in the "Bunkers"
with them that they were prominent people from Germany and other
countries: Pastor Niemoeller, also the Prussian Prince,
Schuschnigg, members of the French Government, and many others. I
was told that one of the generals who had been shot was a close
relative of General de Gaulle. Unfortunately I have forgotten his
name.

Q. If I understood you rightly, these generals were prisoners of
war who had been transported to this concentration camp?

A. These two generals never were in the concentration camp. They
were kept, along with the other prominent people, in the so-called
"Kommandantur-Arrest," i.e., in the "Bunker" separated from the
camp. On various occasions when they needed medical attention I
came into contact with them, but that was very infrequently.
Otherwise they did not come into contact with other prisoners at
all.

Q. Did they belong to the category of deported people whose return
was undesirable, or were they of the category of "Nacht und
Nebel"?

A. I do not know. Two days previously all the others who were kept
in the "Bunker" were sent by special transport to the Tyrol. That
was, I believe, a week or eight days before the liberation.

Q. You indicated that numerous visitors, German military men,
students, political men, had toured the camp repeatedly. Can you
say if any common people like workers or farmers knew what was
going on in this camp?

A. In my opinion, the people who lived in the neighbourhood of
Munich must have known of all these things because the prisoners
went every day to various factories in Munich and the
neighbourhood, and while at work frequently came into contact with
the civilian workers. Moreover, the plantations and the factories
of the German armament plants were often entered by people making
deliveries and also customers, who must have seen what was done to
the prisoners, and what they looked like.

Q. Can you say in what way the French were treated?

A. Well, if I said that the Russians were treated worst of all,
the French were the second in order. Of course, there were
differences in the treatment of the different people. The "Nacht
und Nebel" prisoners were treated quite differently, likewise the
prominent political personalities and the intellectuals. That was
true of all nations. And the workers and peasants were treated in
a different way.

Q. If I understood correctly, the treatment reserved for the
French intellectuals was particularly rigorous. Do you remember
the treatment inflicted on some French intellectuals, and can you
tell us their names?

A. As I can recall I had many comrades among the physicians and
university professors who worked with me in the hospital.
Unfortunately, a large number of them died of typhus. Most of the
French, in fact, died of typhus. I can remember best of all
Professor Limousin. He arrived in very poor condition with the
transport from Compiegne. I took him into my department as
assistant pathologist. Then I  also knew the Bishop of Clermont-
Ferrand. There were also other physicians and university
professors whom I knew. I remember Professor Roche, Dr. Lemartin,
and there were many others, but I have forgotten their names.

                                                        [Page 216]

Q. In the course of the conversations which you had with Dr.
Rascher were you informed of the purpose he pursued by these
experiments?

A. I did not understand the question.

Q. Were you informed of the purpose of the medical and biological
experiments made by Dr. Rascher in the camp?

A. Well, Dr. Rascher made exclusively so-called Air Force
experiments in the camp. He was a major in the Air Force and was
assigned to investigate the conditions to which parachutists were
subjected and, further, the conditions of those people who had to
make an emergency landing on the sea or had fallen into the sea.
According to scientific rules, in so far as I can judge, there was
no purpose at all. Just as in the case of all these experiments,
it was simply useless murder, and it is particularly amazing that
learned university professors and physicians were capable of
carrying out these experiments according to plan. These
experiments were much worse than all the liquidations and
executions, because all the victims of these experiments simply
had their suffering prolonged, as various medicines, such as
vitamins, hormones, tonics and injections, which were not
available for common patients, were provided for these patients,
so that the experiments might last longer, and give those people
more time to observe their victims.

Q. I am speaking now of the experiments of Dr. Rascher only; had
he received the order to make these experiments, or did he make
them on his own initiative?

A. These experiments were made on Himmler's direct orders; also,
Dr. Rascher had close relations with Himmler, and was like a
relative of his. Himmler visited Dr. Rascher very often, and Dr.
Rascher repeatedly visited Himmler.

Q. Have you any information regarding the qualifications of the
physicians who were making these experiments? Were they always
S.S. men, or were they members of medical faculties of academies
who did not belong to the S.S.?

A. That depended. For example, the malaria station was headed by
Professor Klaus Schilling of the Koch Institute in Berlin. The
phlegmine station also had several university professors. The
surgical station was manned solely by S.S. doctors. In the Air
Force station there were exclusively S.S. and military doctors. It
was not always the same. Dr. Bleibeck from Vienna conducted the
experiments with sea-water.

Q. Were the studies for the Luftwaffe made on the order of Himmler
only?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you know - this is the last question - how many Frenchmen
passed through this camp?

A. I believe at least eight or ten thousand people arrived at the
camp. I know, furthermore, very well that, particularly during the
last period, several thousand French prisoners marched on foot
from the Western camps, especially from Natzweiler, Studthof,
etc., and that only very small remnants of these ever reached
Dachau.

M. DUBOST: Thank you.

BY THE PRESIDENT:

Q. Can you tell us to what branches of the German service those
who were employed at the camp belonged?

A. If I understood you correctly, the highest authority on
everything going on in the camp was the so-called R.S.H.A. in
Berlin. All orders came from Berlin; also in the experimental
stations a certain definite number of subjects for the experiments
was assigned from Berlin, and if the experimenting doctors needed
a larger number, new requests had to be sent to Berlin.

Q. Yes, but what I want to know is, to what branch of the service
the men belonged who were employed in the camp.

                                                        [Page 217]

A. They were all S.S. men, and most of them from the S.D. During
the last days, at the very end, a few members of the Armed Forces
were there as guards, but the men in charge were exclusively S.S.
men.

Q. Were there any of the Gestapo there?

A. Yes, that was the so-called Political Department, which was
directed by the Chief of the Munich Gestapo. It had control of all
the interrogations, regulations, proposed executions, transports,
and transports of invalids. Also, all the people who were provided
for the experiments had to be approved by the Political
Department.

THE PRESIDENT: Do any of the defendants' counsel want to cross-
examine the witness ?

CROSS-EXAMINATION

BY DR. SAUTER (Counsel for defendant Funk):

Q. Witness, you told us that at one time the defendant Funk also
was at Dachau, and you informed us, if I understood you correctly,
that this happened on the occasion of some celebration or State
conference between the Axis Powers. I ask you to exert your memory
a bit and tell us when that was approximately. Perhaps you could
tell us the year, maybe also the season, and perhaps you could
also state which political celebration was in question.

A. As far as Funk is concerned, I can remember that it was, I
believe, a conference of finance ministers. It had been reported
in the papers that this was to take place at that time, and we
were informed ahead of time that some of the ministers would come
to Dachau. Such a visit was actually made in the next few days,
and Minister Funk was said to have been among the visitors. It
was, I believe, during the first half of the year 1944. I cannot
say that with absolute certainty.

Q. You mean to say during the first half of 1944, on the occasion
of a conference of finance ministers?

A. Yes.

Q. Where did that conference take place?

A. If I remember correctly - I did not write that down, of course
- it was either in Salzburg or Reichenhall or Berchtesgaden,
somewhere in the neighbourhood of Munich, I believe.

Q. From who did you learn at that time that within the next few
days, or the day after, the next high-ranking visitors would
arrive?

A. We always received an order to prepare for such a visit.
Elaborate preparations were always made; everything was cleaned
up, everything had to be in order, as you will understand; and
those people whose presence might be undesirable or might even, in
a certain sense, be dangerous, had to disappear. Thus, in the case
of all such high-ranking visitors, we received an order from the
Camp Commandant one or two days ahead of time. And these visitors
were also always accompanied by the Camp Commander.

Q. By the Camp Commander. Now, if you know that the defendant Funk
was there and people talked about it, then, I think, they would
have mentioned also what other persons were present at this visit
made by the defendant Funk.

A. I cannot remember. There were always many different prominent
people.

Q. Other visitors interest me. I am interested only whether or not
at that particular visit, which was said to have been made by
Funk, word was passed around the camp that such and such persons
were with him?

A. I cannot remember that now.

Q. You cannot remember. Can you remember whether afterwards,
perhaps on the next day or the day after, something was said about
that, perhaps by people who had seen the visitors?

A. Yes, we always discussed that; but now I can no longer remember
who were named on these occasions.

                                                        [Page 218]

Q. Witness, I am not interested in any other visit, but in this
specific visit, as long as I do not say anything to the contrary.
In this case I should like to know whether or not anything was
said later on about the persons who were there with Funk.

A. That I do not know: there were so many visits. For instance,
after one visit, the very next day there would be another visit
announced.

Q. Now, you do also remember the visit that Funk made, do you not?

A. Yes.

Q. Well, if other finance ministers were there, one would think
that you would recall them too.

A. No, I cannot remember that. It may be that the people with whom
I talked did not know these other persons.

Q. Do you know why - or to put it differently - which departments
of the camp the visitor Funk was said to have visited? At any rate
he did not come to you?

A. No; he did not come to the Department of Pathology.

Q. He did not. But you were also prepared?

A. Yes. All departments had always to be prepared, even if the
visitors did not come. It also happened at times that a visit was
announced, and then, for one reason or another, nothing came of
it.

Q. Witness, as regards these observations of yours that you have
related to us to-day, have you been interrogated in regard to them
many times already?

A . I was interrogated on these matters for the first time before
the Military Court at Dachau.

Q. Did you also at that time say that Funk had been there? I
repeat, did you before the Military Court at Dachau say anything
to the effect that Funk had been present?

A. Yes, I said the same thing before the Court at Dachau.

Q. About Funk?

A. Also about Funk.

Q. But is it true, witness? I ask again whether it is really true,
because you are here as a witness under oath.

A. Yes.

Q. You were interrogated also the day before yesterday?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you, at that time, also make these statements about Funk?

A. I said the same thing at the interrogation conducted by the
prosecution.

Q. Is that also in the affidavit which I believe you signed?

A. I signed no affidavit.

Q. You signed no affidavit?

A. No; I simply signed what has just been read by the prosecution.

Q. Well, that is an affidavit.

A. Yes, but in that affidavit there is no mention of these visits.

Q. Why then did not you mention these visits the day before
yesterday?

A. I was asked about it orally, and the prosecutor told me that
these matters would be taken up orally in the Courtroom.

Q. Were you then also told where the defendants sit in the
Courtroom?

A. No. Before the Military Court I was shown all the pictures and
I was asked to identify to the Court the various people. I
identified the three whom I said to-day that I had seen in person.
Funk and others I did not name.

Q. You did not name Funk?

A. I did not say that I had personally seen him or that I could
identify him.

Q. But when the pictures were shown to you did you see these
defendants in the pictures?

A. Yes.

                                                        [Page 219]

Q. Now, if I understand you correctly, you knew to-day where, for
instance, Funk or Frick or anyone else was sitting?

A. Funk I do not know personally, because I never saw him at that
time.

Q. Were you not told when the pictures were shown to you at
Dachau, "This is Funk; look at him; do you know him"?

A. No; it was done quite differently.

Q. How?

A. All the pictures were shown to me and I was to say whom of
these individuals I had seen at the Dachau camp. Of these people I
named these three. In regard to the other pictures there was no
further discussion whatsoever.


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