From firstname.lastname@example.org Sun Jun 16 09:25:35 PDT 1996 Article: 22900 of alt.politics.nationalism.white Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!panix!usenet From: email@example.com (Andrew Mathis) Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white Subject: Re: Schoedel's Powerful, Truth-filled, Lie-Slaying, Hope-bringing website: www.alaska.net/~schoedel Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 04:21:57 GMT Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC Lines: 143 Message-ID: <firstname.lastname@example.org> References: <email@example.com> <firstname.lastname@example.org> <email@example.com> <10JUN199603245396@cmi.arizona.edu> <firstname.lastname@example.org> <email@example.com> <4plnu5$ens@decaxp.HARVARD.EDU> <firstname.lastname@example.org> <4pp4i4$r0i@decaxp.HARVARD.EDU> <email@example.com> <firstname.lastname@example.org> <email@example.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: fresh.dialup.access.net X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 "Ronald C. Schoedel"
wrote: >firstname.lastname@example.org (Andrew Mathis) wrote: >>>What if they do? All are more than welcome. Mine is an equal opportunity >>>website, open to all truth-seekers: jew, gentile, and even GSA's. >> >>If I successfully refute your claims about the Talmud, will you print >>them? Equal opportunity has its responsibilities, you know. >Let's see what you can come up with, and then we'll talk, eh? Ah, here's a little something from the archives: I made the following challenge: >: 2. Ron Schoedel claims on his home page that the Babylonian Talmud permits >: sex with three year olds. I will give him $100 if he can cite Tractate, >: Section, Line and Verse. I will not require him to provide the original >: Aramaic; a translation will suffice. Tricky Dick replies: > Facts are Facts quotes this. It can be found at: > http://www.nilenet.com/~tmw/ (in the Library) So I went; I read; I laughed at loud. I believe the author of "Facts are Facts" is "Reverend" Pete Peters. If it's not, Dick, tell him I said go to Hell anyway. Let's start counting lies. I will be quoting Facts are Facts. If you wanna sue me for violation of copyright, go ahead and try. I'll eat you alive. Second paragraph: the author claims that the Talmud is "the legal code which forms the basis of Jewish religious law." This is essentially true. HOWEVER, it was not until the Talmud, which contains the opinions, often differing highly, of dozens of rabbis who lived anywhere between 1st c. BCE and 5th c. CE, was reduced to majority opinions and codified in the Mishneh Torah by Rabbi Moses ben Maimon, called the RamBam or Maimonides, that there was anything that could even remotely be called Jewish law, other than the written Torah (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy). Keep this is mind. Fourth paragraph: the author claims that the Soncino edition of the Talmud is rare. Untrue. I held in my hands less than a week ago, the original text; today I held the translation, both by Soncino. The latter was found in the NYU library. The author shows mere stupidity in paragraph Five by claiming that the Talmud was written in many ancient languages. Is TWO many? Hebrew and Aramaic--that's all, folks. Aramaic, btw, is the langauge that Jesus spoke. Check your Bibles. Finally, we get the money shot. After an unrelated quote from the Talmud on pederasty and how it should be dealt with, the author brings up the infamous passage, which I will now quote: "A maiden three years and a day may be acquired in marriage by coition . . ." Well, there you have it. What follows this line is the eventualities of death of spouse, adultery, etc. So am I disproven? Of course not. The author quoted WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY out of context. Let's back up. Jews believe that Moses received the Torah on Mt. Sinai, and that this Torah consisted of a written portion (aforementioned five first books of Bible) and an oral portion which was passed from Moses to Joshua, >from Joshua to the Judges on down to Jesus' time, where the two main rabbinical schools in Judea were run by Hillel and Shammai. These two men agreed on little or nothing concerning "Jewish law." After the destruction of the Temple (70 CE) and the smashing of the Bar Kochba revolt (c. 135 CE), the surviving rabbinical assemblies decided that it was necessary to write down the Oral law, INCLUDING ALL THE VARIATIONS OF IT THAT HAD COME DOWN. This first process of codification was called the Mishnah. It was completed c. 200 CE. As noted, it contains differing points of view. For instance, Hillel and Shammai's opinions on Chanukah candle lighting are given: Hillel says to light 1 candle the first night, 2 the second and so on; Shammai says to do exactly the opposite. Both positions are given. The Talmud is a combination of the Mishnah and the Gemara, which is Hebrew for completion, which is yet another series of commentaries on commentaries that don't agree. The Mishnah that the Talmudic passage on sex with 3-year-old girls is from a tract called Sanhedrin. You remember these guys, right? They got some hot-blooded Jewish guy nailed to a tree for kicking out moneylenders from the Temple of Solomon. The author of "Facts are Facts" left out the specific Mishnaic portion of the passage he cited. Furthermore, he fails to point out that this specific chapter of Tractate Sanhedrin is on the subject, mainly, of capital punsihment for sexual offenses. The Mishnah goes as follows: "He who commits sodomy with a male or a beast, and a woman that commits bestiality are stoned. If the man has sinned, where in has the animal offended? But because man was enticed to sin thereby, it should be stoned. Another reason is that the animal should not pass thru the streets, whilst people say, this is the animal on account of which so-and-so was stoned." See anything about pedophilia in there? That's because there isn't. It is brought up by the rabbis who are commenting on this Mishnah as an eventuality of other forms of sexual deviance. Most notable, the author of "Facts are Facts" omits the reference to which rabbi makes the 3-year-old girl reference (Rabbi Joseph), and the fact that his point of view is a minority point of view. How do we know it's the minority? Because this opinion never gets into the Mishneh Torah, codified by Maimonides. Nor is it in the Shulchan Aruch (Hebrew for "set table"), a convenient guide to Jewish law based on majority opinions of Talmud, and portable so that you could run from Cossacks and still know how to be Jewish. Need proof? Well, I'll save you trying to find good translations of Mishneh Torah or Shulchan Aruch. Just think back to the differing opinions of Hillel and Shammai on lighting Chanukah candles. We light them Hillel's way, because the Misheh Torah and the Shulchan Aruch say so; the Talmud has both ways. So, you see, the Talmud does not PERMIT Jews to have sex with three-year-olds. It was just the opinion of one Rabbi, who thankfully was in the minority. Fact is, the Talmud doesn't PERMIT anything. The codifications (Shulchan Aruch, Mishneh Torah, there are others for non-Orthodox Jews) make the decisions, and when new decisions need making, they are made, once again, by majority decision. So I guess it was a trick question. I'll be keeping my $100. End quote. Andrew Mathis ------------------------------------- "If they give you ruled paper, Write the other way." --Juan Ramon Jimenez
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