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From ibokor@metz.une.edu.au Sun Aug 25 12:09:59 PDT 1996
Article: 59768 of alt.revisionism
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From: 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re:   Wieder mit dem "Ausrottung" Wahnsinn.
Date: 25 Aug 1996 04:34:01 GMT
Organization: University of New England, NSW, Australia
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Alles andere als Ehrlich continues to wage 
a war against the English langauge, claiming:


"I am a native English speaker.In English,
*extermination* is only heard with regard 
to the killing off of vermin in one's house 
or backyard. I have never heard the word in 
any other sense (except of course, in translations 
of Himmler).  One never even hears about the
*extermination* of American Indians, unless 
someone is trying to make a bad polical
argument, even though in some places that 
is more or less what happened."



This patently disingenuous passage prompted
responses from d A. and Gord McFee.



The latter wrote: 

"I am also a native English speaker.
In English, "extermination" is *not*
only used in connection with killing off 
vermin in your backyard or house. 
Let's see what a dictionary says.

Funk & Wagnalls _Standard Dictionary of 
the English Language_:

[begin quote]
exterminate: To destroy entirely; annihilate
The word "exterminate" is applied to groups or 
masses of men or animals.
[end quote] 
[Funk & Wagnalls, New York, 1973, Volume 1, page 449]
Note as well the following definition from page 450:>
[begin quote]
extermination camp: A death camp
[end quote] [Ibid]"



d.A., who has already confessed to the cardinal
sin of *not* being a native speaker of English,
but claims to be able to fake it pretty well,
offered a quotation from p.60 of Vol V of The 
Oxford English Dictionary (1989):

"exterminate  2. to destroy utterly, put an end to (persons
                 or animals); now only to root out, extirpate 
                 (species, races, populations, sects, hence 
                 opinions, etc.)"
                 

d.A. then continued:

"The dons in their prescience have anticipated that those
whose grasp of English is poor or whose deficiencies have
limited the scope of their reading may prefer to see examples
of the word in use and have furnished the following examples,
on the very same page, complete with date, author and location:

"1649  Alcoran  65   Who can hinder God to exterminate the 
                     Messiah ... with whatsoever is in the Earth,
                     when it shall seeme good to him?
1651  Hobbes  Leviath. II xxiv 128 
                     A people comming into possession of a Land
                     by warre, do not alwaies exterminate the
                     ancient inhabitants.
1705  Arbuthnot Coins (1727) 
                     Alexander had keft Grecian Governors and
                     Colonies in the Indies, but they were almost
                     exterminated by Sandro-cottas.                 
                       
1788  Priestley  Lect. Hist. V  xl 290 
                     Clovis....exterminated all his family, lest
                     any of them should be chosen king..            
             
1857  Freeman Norm. Conq. (1876) I ii 33   
                     The last exterminating conquest waged ....
against
                     the Britons."


A little further down the same page --- in the same column in fact
---
the dons illustrate the use of the noun form, "extermination" in the
same manner:

"1626  Bacon  Holy War  Wks 1740 III 542
                     Displanting and extermination of people""
                     



The seasoned reader will by now fail to be surprised
to be informed [for the umpteenth time], that the
erudite Oxford dons did not make an impression on
Alles andere als Ehrlish, who has not yet been seen
to respond to d.A.'s posting --- though he/she/it
did intimate that he/she/it was otherwise engaged
and therefore unable to do so and that he/she/it
finds d.A.'s postings "insulting". But he/she it
*did* respond to Gord McFee, to wit:

"OK, then give me some ways in which you use the word, 
or have heard it used, outside of the limits I just mentioned 
above.  I honestly can't think of any that I have heard.  
You call the exterminator over to your house.  That's it."



d.A. is too impolite to resist interrupting other
people's discussion and offers to answer Alles andere
als Ehrlich, apologising to Gord McFee if he feels
offended by the interruption:


TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN: 

Here are examples to show that the word "exterminate" 
has a record of use in the English language "outside
the limits" Alles andere als Ehrlich has set for it.


1649  Alcoran  65   Who can hinder God to exterminate the 
                     Messiah ... with whatsoever is in the Earth,
                     when it shall seeme good to him?
1651  Hobbes  Leviath. II xxiv 128 
                     A people comming into possession of a Land
                     by warre, do not alwaies exterminate the
                     ancient inhabitants.
1705  Arbuthnot Coins (1727) 
                     Alexander had keft Grecian Governors and
                     Colonies in the Indies, but they were almost
                     exterminated by Sandro-cottas.                 
                       
1788  Priestley  Lect. Hist. V  xl 290 
                     Clovis....exterminated all his family, lest
                     any of them should be chosen king..            
             
1857  Freeman Norm. Conq. (1876) I ii 33   
                     The last exterminating conquest waged .... 
                     against the Britons.
1626  Bacon  Holy War  Wks 1740 III 542
                     Displanting and extermination of people.
                     
[It looks like a acse of "Seek, and ye shall find"!]

                   
Moreover, I claim that Hobbes, Bacon, Priestley at least
were native speakers of English.

I further claim that these native speakers of English,
whose works belong to the canon of English language
and literature, lived and died before the development
of chemical pesticides --- which fact, as any native 
speaker of English should realise, does *not* imply
that pests and vermin were not eradicated in the
times that these various gentlemen lived, by means of
substances whose efficacy was dependent upon their
chemical properties and action.

I bring to the attention of the less attentive
reader that the above quotations indicate that
the word "exterminate" has been in use continuously
for about three-and-a-half centuries in the usage
asserted by Gord McFee and denied by Alles andere 
als Ehrlich.
                     
                     


Gord McFee made a conciliatory gesture with some
rhetorical questions:

"You are clearly wrong on this in both English and
German.  Can't you see that, even if you won't admit 
it?

Are all the German dictionaries wrong?  All the native 
German speakers?  All the English dictionaries?  All of 
them wrong and only Mr. Ehrlich right?

I have tried to be patient and civil on this, in order not 
to offend your sensitivities, but this does begin to grate 
somewhat.  First you play the game of defining "ausrotten" 
with translations.  That one fails.  Then you try to
fudge the German meaning.  That one also fails.  Now you try 
to fudge theEnglish meaning of "exterminate".  Did you really 
think that all the posters in this newsgroup are ignorant of 
*both* English and German?



d.A. can resist anything but temptation and makes an aside
to Gord McFee concerning his last question.

Alles andere als Ehrlich scheint den Spruch; ,,Jeder geht
von sich selbst aus." zu bestaetigen.



Alles ander als Ehrlich responded to Gord McFee with:

"We have already been over this.  I admire your persistence, 
as well as your _attempts_ to remain patient and civil, but 
I must demur.  *Ausrotten* means killing, I will grant you that.  
The question is how do we translate that into English?  I have
cited my 1995 Langenscheidt's which gives out several words we 
associate with killing and eradication, but it does not give 
*exterminate*."




Here d.A. again interrupts and repeats an earlier request
for Alles andere als Ehrlich to post the precise reference
---- page number etc. ---- and adds:

I do not have access to a 1995 Langenscheidt's at the moment.
But I have access to a number of other dictionaries. Here is
what I have found:

Langenscheidt's Encyclopaedic Dictionary (1974), German-English, 
Vol I, p. 182:

"ausrotten 2. (Volk, Rasse, etc.) exterminate, wipe out, extirpate;
              diese Krankheit rottete die ganze Bevoelkerung aus
              this disease wiped out the entire population;
              die Urbevoelkerung des Landes wurde ausgerottet
              the native population of the country was exterminated."

Langenscheidts Grosses Schulwoerterbuch (1982), Deutsch-Englisch, 
p. 125:

"ausrotten v/t. (Pflanze) a. fig. root out; fig. extirpate,
eradicate,
              stamp out; (Volk) exterminate, wipe out"
              


Before continuing to supply further references, d.A. asks
Alles andere als Ehrlich to explain when and how he/she/it
claims that the editors of and consultants for Langenscheidts
dictionary decided between 1982 and 1995 that "ausrotten"
when used with people or a peoples (Volk) no longer means
"exterminate" in English. The next question to arise is
that even if the meaning of the word had changed so 
radically in the last one-and-a-half decades, how would
this affect the translation of Himmler's use of it over
fifty years ago, and was the operation to effect this
change covered by Medicare/Medicaid/Blue Cross?
              

Now d.A. returns to the dictionaries. 

Collins Concise German Dictionary (1994) p.59:
[ISBN 0-06-275515-3]

"ausrotten {vt sep} to wipe out; {Volk auch, Ungeziefer} 
                    to exterminate; {Religion, Ideen auch}} 
                    to stamp out, to eradicate.


Collins Compact German Dictionary (1993)  p.21
[ISBN 0-00-470298-0]
"ausrotten {vt} stamp out, exterminate."


Before continuing to supply further references, d.A. asks
Alles andere als Ehrlich: If I may be permitted to 
assume that the editors of and consultants to the
Colins dictionary would be in agreement with their
colleagues/competitors at Langenscheidt, then we seem to
have narrowed down the transmogrification of "ausrotten"
to have occurred at some time in 1994/1995. This is
roughly when "Schindler's List" was shown in Europe.
Are these two events connected?

            
The dictionaries regain their hold on d.A.:

Cassells Woerterbuch Deutsch-Englisch Englisch Deutsch
(1980) p. 48

"ausrotten {v.a.} extirpate, exterminate, root out, purge, 
                  stamp out, destroy"


VEB Verlag Enzyklopaedie Leipzig's  Woerterbuch Deutsch-Englisch
(1980) p. 50

"ausrotten {vt}  root out, uproot, eradicate ({auch fig}); 
                  (restlos vernichten) extirpate; {fig} exterminate,
                  wipe out."



Unless my eyes deceive me, *e a c h   a n d   e v e r y  
o n e*  of these sources gives "exterminate", which Alles
andere als Ehrlich claims is not given in his/her/its 
"1995 Langenscheidt's".. On that basis, Alles ander als
Ehrlich has no legitimate ground for taking exception should 
any reader of this newsgroup doubt his/her/its honesty and/or 
sincerity.
              

Alles andere als Ehrlich, oblivious to the above, continued:

"I have also tried to explain why I don't think 
*exterminate* is appropriate for the particular Himmler
speech, for reasons of diction and rhetorical structure."



d.A. brings to Alles andere als Ehrlich's attention a
posting by one Duncan Coons, who recently posted:

"Cassell's pre-war edition of their German-English 
dictionary reads, Ausrott--en, v.a. extirpate, 
exterminate, root out."

d.A. brashly ventures the conjecture that Himmler, had 
he sought to translate his words into English, was more 
likely to have turned to a pre-war Cassell's than Alles 
andere als Ehrlich's "1995 Langenscheidt's".


But Alles ander als Ehrlich has not yet finished 
showering Gord McFee with egested material. Perhaps
less milk of magnesia is in order.


"At the same time, to refer to an English dictionary 
in order to show that *exterminate* means *killing* 
is hardly necessary.  As I have said many times, I 
have never questioned the fact that  Himmler was talking 
about killing.  The question has always been  the best 
way to render this, in conjunction with the following 
paragraphs, into English.

Meanwhile, you have also made it clear that you advocate 
*exterminate* to convey the sense of *utter physical 
annihilation.*  I disagree, "



d.A. interrupts to let the Oxford dons come to word again.

"exterminate  2. to destroy utterly, put an end to (persons
                 or animals)"

[p.60 of Vol V of The Oxford English Dictionary (1989)]



Alles andere als Ehrlich, all but finished for today,
continues:



"not least because of the references which Irving 
provided from Hitler's speeches and remarks before 
the war, sometimes even referencing the German 
people.  I don't think *ausrotten = exterminate* 
fits all these instances."


To which d.A. can only say that "ausrotten", *does*
have various shades of meaning, depending on context.
However,  in the context used by Himmler, which is
after all, the source at the core of these exchanges,
the sense and meaning is canonically rendered into
English by "exterminate", when it is used to mean
"annihilate", "slaughter", "render extinct",
"kill each and every specimen".




d.A.



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