The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

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From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:38:55 EDT 2009
Article: 2011912 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Why Gun Confiscation In America Is A Bad Idea
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Thu, 23 Apr 2009 17:24:29 -0500, Topaz 
wrote:

>On Thu, 23 Apr 2009 03:17:45 -0700, Klaus Schadenfreude
> wrote:
>
>>In talk.politics.guns Topaz  wrote:
>>
>>>On Wed, 22 Apr 2009 03:33:08 -0700, Klaus Schadenfreude
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>They weren't, nazi-boy. That's Goebbels' propaganda.
>>>
>>>
>>>Polish Atrocities
>>>Against the German Minority in Poland
>>>Edited and published by order of the Foreign Office,
>>>Volk und Reich Verlag Berlin, 2nd. revised ed., 1940, 311 pp.
>>>http://www.jrbooksonline.com/polish_atrocities.htm
>>>Volk und Reich Verlag logo
>>>
>>>GERMANS: ABUSED MINORITY!
>>>An odd concept you may have never heard of.  But it happened.
>>>Atrocity photos you'll never see on the History Channel.
>>
>>
>>Because it never happened.

It is crap like this from holocaustorians that first made me doubt the
holocaust™ stories, since if the holocaustians lie about stuff about
which I'm certain, then how can I trust the rest of their claims?

>
>Jewish control of the media
>Compiled by Jeffrey Blankfort
>12-6-4
> 
>
>MORTIMER ZUCKERMAN, owner of NY Daily News, US News & World Report and
>chair of the Conference of Presidents of Major Jewish American
>Organizations, one of the largest pro-Israel lobbying groups.
> 
>LESLIE MOONVES, president of CBS television, great-nephew of David
>Ben-Gurion, and co-chair with Norman Ornstein of the Advisory
>Committee on Public Interest Obligation of Digital TV Producers,
>appointed by Clinton.
> 
>JONATHAN MILLER, chair and CEO of AOL division of AOL-Time-Warner
> 
>NEIL SHAPIRO, president of NBC News
> 
>JEFF GASPIN, Executive Vice-President, Programming, NBC
> 
>DAVID WESTIN, president of ABC News
> 
>SUMNER REDSTONE, CEO of Viacom, "world's biggest media giant"
>(Economist, 11/23/2) owns Viacom cable, CBS and MTVs all over the
>world, Blockbuster video rentals and Black Entertainment TV.
> 
>MICHAEL EISNER, major owner of Walt Disney, Capitol Cities, ABC.
> 
>RUPERT MURDOCH, Owner Fox TV, New York Post, London Times, News of the
>World (Jewish mother)
> 
>MEL KARMAZIN, president of CBS
> 
>DON HEWITT, Exec. Director, 60 Minutes, CBS
> 
>JEFF FAGER, Exec. Director, 60 Minutes II. CBS
> 
>DAVID POLTRACK, Executive Vice-President, Research and Planning, CBS
> 
>SANDY KRUSHOW, Chair, Fox Entertainment
> 
>LLOYD BRAUN, Chair, ABC Entertainment
> 
>BARRY MEYER, chair, Warner Bros.
> 
>SHERRY LANSING. President of Paramount Communications and Chairman of
>Paramount Pictures' Motion Picture Group.
> 
>HARVEY WEINSTEIN, CEO. Miramax Films.
> 
>BRAD SIEGEL., President, Turner Entertainment.
> 
>PETER CHERNIN, second in-command at Rupert Murdoch's News. Corp.,
>owner of Fox TV
> 
>MARTY PERETZ, owner and publisher of the New Republic, which openly
>identifies itself as pro-Israel. Al Gore credits Marty with being his
>"mentor."
> 
>ARTHUR O. SULZBERGER, JR., publisher of the NY Times, the Boston Globe
>and other publications.
> 
>WILLIAM SAFIRE, syndicated columnist for the NYT.
> 
>TOM FRIEDMAN, syndicated columnist for the NYT.
> 
>CHARLES KRAUTHAMMER, syndicated columnist for the Washington Post.
>Honored by Honest Reporting.com, website monitoring "anti-Israel
>media."
> 
>RICHARD COHEN, syndicated columnist for the Washington Post
> 
>JEFF JACOBY, syndicated columnist for the Boston Globe
> 
>NORMAN ORNSTEIN, American Enterprise Inst., regular columnist for USA
>Today, news analyst for CBS, and co-chair with Leslie Moonves of the
>Advisory Committee on Public Interest Obligation of Digital TV
>Producers, appointed by Clinton.
> 
>ARIE FLEISCHER, Dubya's press secretary.
> 
>STEPHEN EMERSON, every media outlet's first choice as an expert on
>domestic terrorism.
> 
>DAVID SCHNEIDERMAN, owner of the Village Voice and the New Times
>network of "alternative weeklies."
> 
>DENNIS LEIBOWITZ, head of Act II Partners, a media hedge fund
> 
>KENNETH POLLACK, for CIA analysts, director of Saban Center for Middle
>East Policy, writes op-eds in NY Times, New Yorker
> 
>BARRY DILLER, chair of USA Interactive, former owner of Universal
>Entertainment
> 
>KENNETH ROTH, Executive Director of Human Rights Watch
> 
>RICHARD LEIBNER, runs the N.S. Bienstock talent agency, which
>represents 600 news personalities such as Dan Rather, Dianne Sawyer
>and Bill O'Reilly.
> 
>TERRY SEMEL, CEO, Yahoo, former chair, Warner Bros.
> 
>MARK GOLIN, VP and Creative Director, AOL
> 
>WARREN LIEBERFORD, Pres., Warner Bros. Home Video Div. of AOL-
>TimeWarner
> 
>JEFFREY ZUCKER, President of NBC Entertainment
> 
>JACK MYERS, NBC, chief.NYT 5.14.2
> 
>SANDY GRUSHOW, chair of Fox Entertainment
> 
>GAIL BERMAN, president of Fox Entertainment
> 
>STEPHEN SPIELBERG, co-owner of Dreamworks
> 
>JEFFREY KATZENBERG, co-owner of Dreamworks
> 
>DAVID GEFFEN, co-owner of Dreamworks
> 
>LLYOD BRAUN, chair of ABC Entertainment
> 
>JORDAN LEVIN, president of Warner Bros. Entertainment
> 
>MAX MUTCHNICK, co-executive producer of NBC's "Good Morning Miami"
> 
>DAVID KOHAN, co-executive producer of NBC's "Good Morning Miami"
> 
>HOWARD STRINGER, chief of Sony Corp. of America
> 
>AMY PASCAL, chair of Columbia Pictures
> 
>JOEL KLEIN, chair and CEO of Bertelsmann's American operations
> 
>ROBERT SILLERMAN, founder of Clear Channel Communications
> 
>BRIAN GRADEN, president of MTV entertainment
> 
>IVAN SEIDENBERG, CEO of Verizon Communications
> 
>WOLF BLITZER, host of CNN's Late Edition
> 
>LARRY KING, host of Larry King Live
> 
>TED KOPPEL, host of ABC's Nightline
> 
>ANDREA KOPPEL, CNN Reporter
> 
>PAULA ZAHN, CNN Host
> 
>MIKE WALLACE, Host of CBS, 60 Minutes
> 
>BARBARA WALTERS, Host, ABC's 20-20
> 
>MICHAEL LEDEEN, editor of National Review
> 
>BRUCE NUSSBAUM, editorial page editor, Business Week
> 
>DONALD GRAHAM, Chair and CEO of Newsweek and Washington Post, son of
> 
>CATHERINE GRAHAM MEYER, former owner of the Washington Post
> 
>HOWARD FINEMAN, Chief Political Columnist, Newsweek
> 
>WILLIAM KRISTOL, Editor, Weekly Standard, Exec. Director
>Project for a New American Century (PNAC)
> 
>RON ROSENTHAL, Managing Editor, San Francisco Chronicle
> 
>PHIL BRONSTEIN, Executive Editor, San Francisco Chronicle,
> 
>RON OWENS, Talk Show Host, KGO (ABC-Capitol Cities, San Francisco)
> 
>JOHN ROTHMAN, Talk Show Host, KGO (ABC-Capitol Cities, San Francisco)
> 
>MICHAEL SAVAGE, Talk Show Host, KFSO (ABC-Capitol Cities, San
>Francisco) Syndicated in 100 markets
> 
>MICHAEL MEDVED, Talk Show Host, on 124 AM stations
> 
>DENNIS PRAGER, Talk Show Host, nationally syndicated from LA. Has
>Israeli flag on his home page.
> 
>BEN WATTENBERG, Moderator, PBS Think Tank.
> 
>ANDREW LACK, president of NBC
> 
>DANIEL MENAKER, Executive Director, Harper Collins
> 
>DAVID REZNIK, Editor, The New Yorker
> 
>NICHOLAS LEHMANN, writer, the New York
> 
>HENRICK HERTZBERG, Talk of the Town editor, The New Yorker
> 
>SAMUEL NEWHOUSE JR, and DONALD NEWHOUSE own Newhouse Publications,
>includes 26 newspapers in 22 cities; the Conde Nast magazine group,
>includes The New Yorker; Parade, the Sunday newspaper supplement;
>American City Business Journals, business newspapers published in more
>than 30 major cities in America; and interests in cable television
>programming and cable systems serving 1 million homes.
> 
>DONALD NEWHOUSE, chairman of the board of directors, Associated Press.
> 
>PETER R KANN, CEO, Wall Street Journal, Barron's
> 
>RALPH J. & BRIAN ROBERTS, Owners, Comcast-ATT Cable TV.
> 
>LAWRENCE KIRSHBAUM, CEO, AOL-Time Warner Book Group
>
>http://www.ihr.org/     www.vanguardnewsnetwork.com/    
>
>http://www.natvan.com   http://www.nsm88.org
>
>http://heretical.com/    


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:38:55 EDT 2009
Article: 2011913 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Why Gun Confiscation In America Is A Bad Idea
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
Message-ID: 
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On Fri, 24 Apr 2009 18:55:16 +1000, "B.H. Cramer"
 wrote:

>
>"Gord McFee"  wrote in message 
>news:7k12v4hvv0a07p66r611kc36lcl956tl97@4ax.com...
>> On Thu, 23 Apr 2009 07:55:27 -0400, in
>> <4ll0v4dm8dsqi8alroam10t3f0t4s10hqf@4ax.com>, Johannes von Ebersdorf
>>  wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, 23 Apr 2009 19:11:09 +1000, "B.H. Cramer"
>>>  wrote:
>>>
>>> >"Klaus Schadenfreude"  wrote in message
>>> >news:fettu4d2sn73uf7436q1aqpsj53rj70157@4ax.com...
>>> >> In talk.politics.guns "B.H. Cramer" 
>>> >> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >>>"Klaus Schadenfreude"  wrote in message
>>> >>>news:ohstu4lg2uf0jncj1mc5j99dq4odaoumho@4ax.com...
>>> >>>> In talk.politics.guns "B.H. Cramer" 
>>> >>>> wrote:
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>>"Klaus Schadenfreude"  wrote in 
>>> >>>>>message
>>> >>>>>news:smvsu41m61tshng7d8qrltpjod8n1s0nui@4ax.com...
>>> >>>>>> In talk.politics.guns Topaz  wrote:
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>On Mon, 20 Apr 2009 18:18:49 -0700, Klaus Schadenfreude
>>> >>>>>>> wrote:
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>In talk.politics.guns Topaz  wrote:
>>> >>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>>On Sun, 19 Apr 2009 13:18:25 -0700, Klaus Schadenfreude
>>> >>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>How do you explain Germany getting whipped by sub-humans?
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>Compare the size of Germany to the size of the Jewish 
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>controlled
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>countries, the USA and the USSR.
>>> >>>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>>>Now, why would such a SMART bunch of guys take on that many 
>>> >>>>>>>>>>Jews?
>>> >>>>>>>>>>Why,
>>> >>>>>>>>>>you'd have to be fucking crazy, wouldn't you?
>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>No answer?
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>Not so well known is the story of Roosevelt's enormous 
>>> >>>>>>>responsibility
>>> >>>>>>>for the outbreak of the Second World War itself. This essay 
>>> >>>>>>>focuses on
>>> >>>>>>>Roosevelt's secret campaign to provoke war in Europe prior to the
>>> >>>>>>>outbreak of hostilities in September 1939.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> When Germany attacked Poland. You have to wonder why they did
>>> >>>>>> something so stupid. Got any answers?
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>Why was Poland sabre rattling and engaging in cross-border attacks
>>> >>>>>against
>>> >>>>>Germany, shadesofraud?
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> They weren't, nazi-boy.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>You lie, shadesoffraud.
>>> >>
>>> >> Following a German-staged "Polish attack" on 31 August 1939, on
>>> >> September 1, German forces invaded Poland from the north, south, and
>>> >> west.
>>>
>>> >Go back a few months, shadesoffraud.
>>>
>>> The jerk is playing with the facts and injecting allied propaganda as
>>> history. Poland ordered general mobilization on August 25, and that
>>> counts as a declaration of war against Germany. That is all the
>>> justification required for an invasion.
>>
>> Thanks for admitting that Germany invaded Poland.  Poland ordered a
>> partial mobilization on August 25 because there were 3 million German
>> troops massed on their border.
>
>A challenge for you old feller. Let's see if you're honest.
>
>Do you, or do you not accept that Poland had been sabre rattling toward 
>Germany and involving themselves in cross-border skirmishes into Germany, 
>and also engaging in brutalities against ethnic Germans in Poland?
>
>Oh, by the bye - I snipped the off topic nonsense you tried to include to 
>deflect attention away from the inconvenient facts.

This guy's German figures are preposterous, like the rest of the
holocaust™ fables. It would not require 3 million soldiers to invade
Poland, and in fact the German armed services didn't even HAVE three
million soldiers to place on the Polish frontier or anywhere else for
that matter.

The invasion was a response to the threat posed by the mobilization.
The preparations on the German side were all done between the Polish
mobilization and September 1.


>
>
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:38:56 EDT 2009
Article: 2011915 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Why Gun Confiscation In America Is A Bad Idea
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Fri, 24 Apr 2009 18:58:35 +1000, "B.H. Cramer"
 wrote:

>
>"Michael Ejercito"  wrote in message 
>news:cf2bc8ff-02e6-4a86-ac3b-6b440430fca6@y6g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>On Apr 22, 12:58 pm, Johannes von Ebersdorf 
>wrote:
>> On Wed, 22 Apr 2009 09:47:29 -0700 (PDT),Michael Ejercito
>>
>>
>>
>>  wrote:
>> >On Apr 22, 2:02 am, "B.H. Cramer"  wrote:
>> >> "Klaus Schadenfreude"  wrote in message
>>
>> >>news:smvsu41m61tshng7d8qrltpjod8n1s0nui@4ax.com...
>> >> > When Germany attacked Poland. You have to wonder why they did
>> >> > something so stupid. Got any answers?
>>
>> >> Why was Poland sabre rattling and engaging in cross-border attacks 
>> >> against
>> >> Germany, shadesofraud?
>>
>> > Can you cite a history textbook mentioning these attacks?
>>
>> There is a book entitled "Der Tod sprach polnish" that reviews many of
>> the massacres of the Poles against ethnic minorities within
>> Versailles-Poland between 1919 and 1949, especially the ethnic German
>> minority that should never have been included in their jurisdiction in
>> the first place.
>
>>   That was an internal Polish matter.

When Poles start murdering ethnic Germans, then it does become a
German matter. Ethnic Germans, regardless of where they live on the
planet, are entitled to instant German citizenship if they return to
Germany. If I have a dispute with the government of Canada, I contact
the Consul General of Germany to intercede on my behalf, and he always
has done so in the past, and successfully. Germany is rather less a
place than it is a people. My children and grand-children would still
be entitled to German citizenship even though they were born in
Canada. My self image is that of a German person living in Canada.


>
>Using your logic, greaser, the Holocaust(tm) was an internal matter.
>
>Christ, you're a dimwit.
>
>
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:38:56 EDT 2009
Article: 2011916 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Why Gun Confiscation In America Is A Bad Idea
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Sat, 25 Apr 2009 09:11:53 +1000, "B.H. Cramer"
 wrote:

>
>"Michael Ejercito"  wrote in message 
>news:66368572-6733-40bd-ad18-18f6dc69ff59@u9g2000pre.googlegroups.com...
>On Apr 24, 1:58 am, "B.H. Cramer"  wrote:
>> "Michael Ejercito"  wrote in message
>>
>> news:cf2bc8ff-02e6-4a86-ac3b-6b440430fca6@y6g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>> On Apr 22, 12:58 pm, Johannes von Ebersdorf 
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Wed, 22 Apr 2009 09:47:29 -0700 (PDT),Michael Ejercito
>>
>> >  wrote:
>> > >On Apr 22, 2:02 am, "B.H. Cramer"  wrote:
>> > >> "Klaus Schadenfreude"  wrote in message
>>
>> > >>news:smvsu41m61tshng7d8qrltpjod8n1s0nui@4ax.com...
>> > >> > When Germany attacked Poland. You have to wonder why they did
>> > >> > something so stupid. Got any answers?
>>
>> > >> Why was Poland sabre rattling and engaging in cross-border attacks
>> > >> against
>> > >> Germany, shadesofraud?
>>
>> > > Can you cite a history textbook mentioning these attacks?
>>
>> > There is a book entitled "Der Tod sprach polnish" that reviews many of
>> > the massacres of the Poles against ethnic minorities within
>> > Versailles-Poland between 1919 and 1949, especially the ethnic German
>> > minority that should never have been included in their jurisdiction in
>> > the first place.
>> > That was an internal Polish matter.
>>
>> Using your logic, greaser, the Holocaust(tm) was an internal matter.
>>
>> Christ, you're a dimwit.
>
>>   So Poland and Czechoslovakia were parts of Germany?

The areas in question had been part of Germany for many centuries
prior to Versailles. The areas and their residents should never have
been given to Poland and Czechoslovakia in the first place.

>
>Que?  What the fuck are you blathering about, greaser?
>
>
He seems to be talking through his hat.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:38:57 EDT 2009
Article: 2011920 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Why Gun Confiscation In America Is A Bad Idea
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Sat, 25 Apr 2009 09:09:52 +1000, "B.H. Cramer"
 wrote:

>
>"Michael Ejercito"  wrote in message 
>news:82883139-83fe-4ffe-bb95-78ca8fcf94c2@j9g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
>On Apr 23, 3:31 pm, Topaz  wrote:
>> Here are some quotes from "With Hitler on the Road to Power" by Dr.
>> Otto Dietrich
>
>>   Hitler's road to power was a road to ruin.
>
>Thanks to the yids.
>
>
>
Doing nothing was already the road to ruin, so Hitler didn't make it
any worse. Without WW2, Germany would still be paying ruinous
"reparations" for WW1. Today, it is a prosperous state on about 75% of
the territory of the Empire. The old German saying "Besser ein Ende
mit Schrecken, als ein Schrecken ohne Ende" still applies. (Better an
ending with horrors than a horror without end)


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:38:57 EDT 2009
Article: 2011921 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Why Gun Confiscation In America Is A Bad Idea
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Fri, 24 Apr 2009 17:57:41 +1000, "B.H. Cramer"
 wrote:

>
>"Klaus Schadenfreude"  wrote in message 
>news:04g0v4tspdi0p6j4r4huhfs92oa1k5k4j5@4ax.com...
>> In talk.politics.guns "B.H. Cramer" 
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Klaus Schadenfreude"  wrote in message
>>>news:8kttu4ppnp0n6ath31jjjf2kqtssrau419@4ax.com...
>>>> In talk.politics.guns "B.H. Cramer" 
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>"Klaus Schadenfreude"  wrote in message
>>>>>news:2lstu4l47q6mvv2bicrvsn9vtdo5oosr8l@4ax.com...
>>>>>> In talk.politics.guns "B.H. Cramer" 
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>"Klaus Schadenfreude"  wrote in message
>>>>>>>news:jrvsu4l23conhnm4h2f980pjla3qcg8feh@4ax.com...
>>>>>>>> In talk.politics.guns "Truthseeker"  wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>First of all you are not using your real name. And we do not need a
>>>>>>>>>two
>>>>>>>>>facet parasite like you.
>>>>>>>>>Kurt Knoll.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Nobody really cares what you want, asswipe.  When you prove you're
>>>>>>>> using your real name then we'll talk. Post a scan of your driver's
>>>>>>>> license and birth certificate here. I  will allow the posting of a
>>>>>>>> binary file this one time.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>When did you take ownership of the group, shadesoffraud?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> October 23, 2001.
>>>>>
>>>>>Wanker.
>>>>
>>>> Owner. Maybe you can help him when you're done proving Poland attacked
>>>> Germany, huh? [chuckle]
>>>
>>>They had been engaged in cross-border skirmishes for quite some time, 
>>>silly
>>>little man.
>>
>> Yes, Germany was provoking them and looking for an excuse to get into
>> war.
>
>You're a bit forgetful, shadesoffraud. And frightfully dishonest (or 
>stupid).

The Poles had the British assignment to get a war going, and they did.

>
>
>
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:38:57 EDT 2009
Article: 2011922 of alt.revisionism
Path: border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nlpi057.nbdc.sbc.com!prodigy.net!news.glorb.com!news2.glorb.com!news-in-01.newsfeed.easynews.com!easynews!core-easynews-01!easynews.com!en-nntp-01.dc1.easynews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Why Gun Confiscation In America Is A Bad Idea
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
Message-ID: 
References:   <2lstu4l47q6mvv2bicrvsn9vtdo5oosr8l@4ax.com>  <8kttu4ppnp0n6ath31jjjf2kqtssrau419@4ax.com> <5IydnVftWu77vW3UnZ2dnVY3goydnZ2d@giganews.com> <04g0v4tspdi0p6j4r4huhfs92oa1k5k4j5@4ax.com>   
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On Sat, 25 Apr 2009 09:06:39 +1000, "B.H. Cramer"
 wrote:

>
>"Klaus Schadenfreude"  wrote in message 
>news:sda3v45r9n02q2r4bsjtdimhehkibqjcgi@4ax.com...
>> In talk.politics.guns "B.H. Cramer" 
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Klaus Schadenfreude"  wrote in message
>>>news:04g0v4tspdi0p6j4r4huhfs92oa1k5k4j5@4ax.com...
>>>> In talk.politics.guns "B.H. Cramer" 
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>"Klaus Schadenfreude"  wrote in message
>>>>>news:8kttu4ppnp0n6ath31jjjf2kqtssrau419@4ax.com...
>>>>>> In talk.politics.guns "B.H. Cramer" 
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>"Klaus Schadenfreude"  wrote in message
>>>>>>>news:2lstu4l47q6mvv2bicrvsn9vtdo5oosr8l@4ax.com...
>>>>>>>> In talk.politics.guns "B.H. Cramer" 
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>"Klaus Schadenfreude"  wrote in 
>>>>>>>>>message
>>>>>>>>>news:jrvsu4l23conhnm4h2f980pjla3qcg8feh@4ax.com...
>>>>>>>>>> In talk.politics.guns "Truthseeker"  wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>First of all you are not using your real name. And we do not need 
>>>>>>>>>>>a
>>>>>>>>>>>two
>>>>>>>>>>>facet parasite like you.
>>>>>>>>>>>Kurt Knoll.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Nobody really cares what you want, asswipe.  When you prove you're
>>>>>>>>>> using your real name then we'll talk. Post a scan of your driver's
>>>>>>>>>> license and birth certificate here. I  will allow the posting of a
>>>>>>>>>> binary file this one time.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>When did you take ownership of the group, shadesoffraud?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> October 23, 2001.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Wanker.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Owner. Maybe you can help him when you're done proving Poland attacked
>>>>>> Germany, huh? [chuckle]
>>>>>
>>>>>They had been engaged in cross-border skirmishes for quite some time,
>>>>>silly
>>>>>little man.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, Germany was provoking them and looking for an excuse to get into
>>>> war.
>>>
>>>You're a bit forgetful, shadesoffraud. And frightfully dishonest (or
>>>stupid).
>>
>> Yet Blow Hard has yet to come up with a single shred of evidence
>> proving me wrong.
>
>A lie, of course.
>
>You're dreadfully good at spluttering and lying, shadesoffraud, but totally 
>incapable of backing up your Holocaust(tm) thingie with anything like solid, 
>tangible, scientifically verifiable evidence.
>
All his anti-German crap is totally without substance.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:38:57 EDT 2009
Article: 2011924 of alt.revisionism
Path: border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-in-01.newsfeed.easynews.com!easynews!core-easynews-01!easynews.com!en-nntp-04.dc1.easynews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Why Gun Confiscation In America Is A Bad Idea
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Thu, 23 Apr 2009 15:26:14 -0500, grey_ghost471-newsgroups@yahoo.com
(Gray Ghost) wrote:

>"B.H. Cramer"  wrote in
>news:5IydnVftWu77vW3UnZ2dnVY3goydnZ2d@giganews.com: 
>
>> 
>> "Klaus Schadenfreude"  wrote in message 
>> news:8kttu4ppnp0n6ath31jjjf2kqtssrau419@4ax.com...
>>> In talk.politics.guns "B.H. Cramer"  wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>"Klaus Schadenfreude"  wrote in message
>>>>news:2lstu4l47q6mvv2bicrvsn9vtdo5oosr8l@4ax.com...
>>>>> In talk.politics.guns "B.H. Cramer" 
>>>>> wrote: 
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>"Klaus Schadenfreude"  wrote in message
>>>>>>news:jrvsu4l23conhnm4h2f980pjla3qcg8feh@4ax.com...
>>>>>>> In talk.politics.guns "Truthseeker"  wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>First of all you are not using your real name. And we do not need a 
>>>>>>>>two facet parasite like you.
>>>>>>>>Kurt Knoll.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Nobody really cares what you want, asswipe.  When you prove you're
>>>>>>> using your real name then we'll talk. Post a scan of your driver's
>>>>>>> license and birth certificate here. I  will allow the posting of a
>>>>>>> binary file this one time. 
>>>>>>
>>>>>>When did you take ownership of the group, shadesoffraud?
>>>>>
>>>>> October 23, 2001.
>>>>
>>>>Wanker.
>>>
>>> Owner. Maybe you can help him when you're done proving Poland attacked
>>> Germany, huh? [chuckle]
>> 
>> They had been engaged in cross-border skirmishes for quite some time,
>> silly little man.
>> 
>> Do please learn to research before you open your gormy gob,
>> shadesoffraud. 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>
>Cite any reputable history that says so. I've been studying WWII for over 40 
>years and I've never seen anywhere that Poland provoked Hitler.

You've obviously read the wrong material. Poland's provocations are
pretty obvious if you are not blinded by obligations to support allied
propaganda.


>There is the 
>little problem of the German-Soviet Pact that divided Poland between Germany 
>and the Soviets, much prior planning by the Germans and Hitler's stated 
>intention to use Poland as Lebensraum for Germany.

Poland is useless as "Lebensraum" for Germany or anybody else. Germany
just wanted the return of Danzig and other territories stolen from it
by the allied thieves post WW1.

As for Poland being divided between Hitler and Stalin, don't you find
it odd that Britain only took exception to Germany's involvement in
trying to recover stolen property, while sheer Soviet robbery was
perfectly acceptable?



From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:38:58 EDT 2009
Article: 2011926 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Why Gun Confiscation In America Is A Bad Idea
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Thu, 23 Apr 2009 20:45:21 +0000 (UTC), Alan-from-Elimbah
 wrote:

>In article ,
>Gray Ghost  wrote:
>
>> "B.H. Cramer"  wrote in
>> news:5IydnVftWu77vW3UnZ2dnVY3goydnZ2d@giganews.com: 
>
>>> Do please learn to research before you open your gormy gob,
>>> shadesoffraud. 
>
>> Cite any reputable history that says so. I've been studying WWII for over 40 
>> years and I've never seen anywhere that Poland provoked Hitler. There is the 
>> little problem of the German-Soviet Pact that divided Poland between Germany 
>> and the Soviets, much prior planning by the Germans and Hitler's stated 
>> intention to use Poland as Lebensraum for Germany.
>
>If you want to understand why "B.H. Cramer" posts as he does,
>have a look at these verbatim quotes from his missives to this
>newsgroup:
>
>   "I'm not here to rebut anything or anyone, cuntface. I'm here
>to antagonise and keep you occupied." -- Posted by "Ben Cramer",
>Message-ID:  .
>
>   "Had Hitler won the war, the world would be a much better
>place."  --Posted by "Ben Cramer",  Source:  Message-ID
>.
>
>   "You seem to think I am a backer of these Islamic monkeys. You
>couldn't be further from the truth." --  Posted by "Ben Cramer",
>Message-ID:
>
>   "Poofters should be fucked and burned." --  Posted by "Ben Cramer",
>Message-ID:
><42942e83$0$247$61c65585@uq-127creek-reader-03.brisbane.pipenetworks.com.au>
>
>   "Women like you and the cohen cunt should be treated like
>gongs. Given a bloody good whack from time to time, to keep
>you in tune." -- Posted by "Ben Cramer",  Message-ID:
><2JednRLNN48kYADYnZ2dnUVZ_oernZ2d@giganews.com>.
>
>   "Yids are lice laddie" --  Posted by "Ben Cramer",  Message-ID
>.
>
>And this person is loved and admired by each and every
>"revisionist" posting here.  That says more about this
>"movement" than an entire encyclopedia could.
>
>Alan.

It would appear that "Alan" is another socket puppet of mcvay. The
same sleazy misquotation style gives it away.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:38:58 EDT 2009
Article: 2011927 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Why Gun Confiscation In America Is A Bad Idea
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
Message-ID: 
References: <0dumu4h6attm0frgbrg9laq41ct3s1v4rr@4ax.com> <8kttu4ppnp0n6ath31jjjf2kqtssrau419@4ax.com> <5IydnVftWu77vW3UnZ2dnVY3goydnZ2d@giganews.com>   
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On Thu, 23 Apr 2009 22:38:15 -0500, grey_ghost471-newsgroups@yahoo.com
(Gray Ghost) wrote:

>Alan-from-Elimbah  wrote in
>news:gsqk10$abr$1@pcls6.std.com: 
>
>> In article ,
>> Gray Ghost  wrote:
>> 
>>> "B.H. Cramer"  wrote in
>>> news:5IydnVftWu77vW3UnZ2dnVY3goydnZ2d@giganews.com: 
>> 
>>>> Do please learn to research before you open your gormy gob,
>>>> shadesoffraud. 
>> 
>>> Cite any reputable history that says so. I've been studying WWII for
>>> over 40 years and I've never seen anywhere that Poland provoked Hitler.
>>> There is the little problem of the German-Soviet Pact that divided
>>> Poland between Germany and the Soviets, much prior planning by the
>>> Germans and Hitler's stated intention to use Poland as Lebensraum for
>>> Germany. 
>> 
>> If you want to understand why "B.H. Cramer" posts as he does,
>> have a look at these verbatim quotes from his missives to this
>> newsgroup:
>> 
>>    "I'm not here to rebut anything or anyone, cuntface. I'm here
>> to antagonise and keep you occupied." -- Posted by "Ben Cramer",
>> Message-ID:  .
>> 
>>    "Had Hitler won the war, the world would be a much better
>> place."  --Posted by "Ben Cramer",  Source:  Message-ID
>>.
>> 
>>    "You seem to think I am a backer of these Islamic monkeys. You
>> couldn't be further from the truth." --  Posted by "Ben Cramer",
>> Message-ID:
>> 
>>    "Poofters should be fucked and burned." --  Posted by "Ben Cramer",
>> Message-ID:
>><42942e83$0$247$61c65585@uq-127creek-reader-03.brisbane.pipenetworks.com.au
>>> 
>> 
>>    "Women like you and the cohen cunt should be treated like
>> gongs. Given a bloody good whack from time to time, to keep
>> you in tune." -- Posted by "Ben Cramer",  Message-ID:
>><2JednRLNN48kYADYnZ2dnUVZ_oernZ2d@giganews.com>.
>> 
>>    "Yids are lice laddie" --  Posted by "Ben Cramer",  Message-ID
>>.
>> 
>> And this person is loved and admired by each and every
>> "revisionist" posting here.  That says more about this
>> "movement" than an entire encyclopedia could.
>> 
>> Alan.
>> 
>> 
>
>A decidedly unsavory individual. It's just when people make such factually 
>and demonstrably false statments, sometimes I just ahve to respond.

If false statements bother you, how the hell do you live with
yourself?



From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:38:58 EDT 2009
Article: 2011929 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Why Gun Confiscation In America Is A Bad Idea
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
Message-ID: 
References: <7VuHl.24732$PH1.19905@edtnps82>   <2lstu4l47q6mvv2bicrvsn9vtdo5oosr8l@4ax.com>  <8kttu4ppnp0n6ath31jjjf2kqtssrau419@4ax.com> <5IydnVftWu77vW3UnZ2dnVY3goydnZ2d@giganews.com>   
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On Fri, 24 Apr 2009 11:18:41 -0500, grey_ghost471-newsgroups@yahoo.com
(Gray Ghost) wrote:

>"B.H. Cramer"  wrote in 
>news:heGdnRwOG5kJ4mzUnZ2dnVY3gomdnZ2d@giganews.com:
>
>> 
>> "Gray Ghost"  wrote in message 
>> news:Xns9BF6A736B7BFFWereofftoseethewizrd@216.196.97.142...
>>> "B.H. Cramer"  wrote in
>>> news:5IydnVftWu77vW3UnZ2dnVY3goydnZ2d@giganews.com:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Klaus Schadenfreude"  wrote in message
>>>> news:8kttu4ppnp0n6ath31jjjf2kqtssrau419@4ax.com...
>>>>> In talk.politics.guns "B.H. Cramer"  wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>"Klaus Schadenfreude"  wrote in message
>>>>>>news:2lstu4l47q6mvv2bicrvsn9vtdo5oosr8l@4ax.com...
>>>>>>> In talk.politics.guns "B.H. Cramer" 
>>>>>>> wrote: 
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>"Klaus Schadenfreude"  wrote in message
>>>>>>>>news:jrvsu4l23conhnm4h2f980pjla3qcg8feh@4ax.com...
>>>>>>>>> In talk.politics.guns "Truthseeker"  wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>First of all you are not using your real name. And we do not need a
>>>>>>>>>>two facet parasite like you.
>>>>>>>>>>Kurt Knoll.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Nobody really cares what you want, asswipe.  When you prove you're
>>>>>>>>> using your real name then we'll talk. Post a scan of your driver's
>>>>>>>>> license and birth certificate here. I  will allow the posting of a
>>>>>>>>> binary file this one time. 
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>When did you take ownership of the group, shadesoffraud?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> October 23, 2001.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Wanker.
>>>>>
>>>>> Owner. Maybe you can help him when you're done proving Poland attacked
>>>>> Germany, huh? [chuckle]
>>>>
>>>> They had been engaged in cross-border skirmishes for quite some time,
>>>> silly little man. 
>>>>
>>>> Do please learn to research before you open your gormy gob,
>>>> shadesoffraud. 
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Cite any reputable history that says so. I've been studying WWII for over 
>>> 40 years and I've never seen anywhere that Poland provoked Hitler.
>> 
>> Do some more reading, laddie. You've obviously confined your reading to 
>> books authored by persons whose names conclude with .........stein, 
>> ..........man or .........berg.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>
>No you antisemitic dilbert, I've read many, many different books over the 
>years written by Americans, Brits and Germans both civilian and military.
>
>Of course I might have missed something so significant. Why don't you direct 
>me to a reputable reference that says such. Of course you will fall back on 
>your ususal idiot "look it up yourself" that last resort of a Nazi loving, 
>Holocaust denying gerbil.

Yawn. If you spent forty years studying and managed to come up with so
little, then perhaps it would be fair to say that you're wasting your
time and ours.



From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:38:59 EDT 2009
Article: 2011930 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Why Gun Confiscation In America Is A Bad Idea
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
Message-ID: 
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On Sat, 25 Apr 2009 09:10:51 +1000, "B.H. Cramer"
 wrote:

>
>"Gray Ghost"  wrote in message 
>news:Xns9BF77D4042FEAWereofftoseethewizrd@216.196.97.142...
>> "B.H. Cramer"  wrote in
>> news:heGdnRwOG5kJ4mzUnZ2dnVY3gomdnZ2d@giganews.com:
>>
>>>
>>> "Gray Ghost"  wrote in message
>>> news:Xns9BF6A736B7BFFWereofftoseethewizrd@216.196.97.142...
>>>> "B.H. Cramer"  wrote in
>>>> news:5IydnVftWu77vW3UnZ2dnVY3goydnZ2d@giganews.com:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "Klaus Schadenfreude"  wrote in message
>>>>> news:8kttu4ppnp0n6ath31jjjf2kqtssrau419@4ax.com...
>>>>>> In talk.politics.guns "B.H. Cramer"  
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>"Klaus Schadenfreude"  wrote in message
>>>>>>>news:2lstu4l47q6mvv2bicrvsn9vtdo5oosr8l@4ax.com...
>>>>>>>> In talk.politics.guns "B.H. Cramer" 
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>"Klaus Schadenfreude"  wrote in 
>>>>>>>>>message
>>>>>>>>>news:jrvsu4l23conhnm4h2f980pjla3qcg8feh@4ax.com...
>>>>>>>>>> In talk.politics.guns "Truthseeker"  wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>First of all you are not using your real name. And we do not need 
>>>>>>>>>>>a
>>>>>>>>>>>two facet parasite like you.
>>>>>>>>>>>Kurt Knoll.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Nobody really cares what you want, asswipe.  When you prove you're
>>>>>>>>>> using your real name then we'll talk. Post a scan of your driver's
>>>>>>>>>> license and birth certificate here. I  will allow the posting of a
>>>>>>>>>> binary file this one time.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>When did you take ownership of the group, shadesoffraud?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> October 23, 2001.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Wanker.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Owner. Maybe you can help him when you're done proving Poland attacked
>>>>>> Germany, huh? [chuckle]
>>>>>
>>>>> They had been engaged in cross-border skirmishes for quite some time,
>>>>> silly little man.
>>>>>
>>>>> Do please learn to research before you open your gormy gob,
>>>>> shadesoffraud.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Cite any reputable history that says so. I've been studying WWII for 
>>>> over
>>>> 40 years and I've never seen anywhere that Poland provoked Hitler.
>>>
>>> Do some more reading, laddie. You've obviously confined your reading to
>>> books authored by persons whose names conclude with .........stein,
>>> ..........man or .........berg.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> No you antisemitic dilbert, I've read many, many different books over the
>> years written by Americans, Brits and Germans both civilian and military.
>>
>> Of course I might have missed something so significant. Why don't you 
>> direct
>> me to a reputable reference that says such. Of course you will fall back 
>> on
>> your ususal idiot "look it up yourself" that last resort of a Nazi loving,
>> Holocaust denying gerbil.
>
>I don't deny anything, sunschein. That you're reduced to this type of 
>personal attack speaks volumes of your stupidity and desperation.

The style is so similar to the mcfee/mcvay act that I'm starting to
think that these people are sock-puppets.

>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:38:59 EDT 2009
Article: 2011931 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Is it holocaust, holohoax or holo-propaganda? 13 reasons to not swallow the HOAX.
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
Message-ID: 
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On Thu, 23 Apr 2009 21:26:36 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
 wrote:

>
>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message 
>news:0pc1v4du027arn758jqrnhco6rhpjjcdin@4ax.com...
>> On Thu, 23 Apr 2009 16:42:51 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
>>  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message
>>>news:9guuu4l89f76fjdr4af290v3at39hsuhm0@4ax.com...
>>>> On Tue, 21 Apr 2009 16:30:55 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
>>>>  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>"Truthseeker"  wrote in message
>>>>>news:WukHl.24625$PH1.18858@edtnps82...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "I'll Always Be 21/04/09"  wrote in
>>>>>> message
>>>>>> news:aussies_suck-C7FC0B.02204221042009@aries.weretis.net...
>>>>>>> In article
>>>>>>> <6dfHl.23288$Db2.10227@edtnps83>,
>>>>>>> "Truthseeker" 
>>>>>>> wrote:
>[snip]
>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Where is your proof about the german
>>>>>>> ships being harassed by the british
>>>>>>> prior to WW2?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> It was in the german news papers at that time.
>>>>>> Kurt Knoll.
>>>>>
>>>>>As was all sorts of other propaganda. Mind you you havent produced WHICH
>>>>>newspaper have you? So you might as well say a pixie told you. By the 
>>>>>way
>>>>>I
>>>>>once read about maralyn Monroe returning to earth as a lettuce in a
>>>>>newspaper - the Weekly World News. about as reliable as you are on
>>>>>historic
>>>>>fact.
>>>>>
>>>> LOL
>>>>
>>>> Nobody is as heavily propagandized as the uniquely gullible and naive
>>>> Americans.
>>>
>>>Yet you expect people to accept anything you say about newspapers which 
>>>you
>>>have never read and to which you can't produce even a reference as to the
>>>title and date that ANY newspaper carried a story supporting any claim you
>>>have made?
>>>
>> That whole diatribe rests on the faulty assumption that just because
>> it is printed in a newspaper it must be true.
>
>
>LOL!
>And who was it who claimed "It was in the german news papers at that time."
>as a basis for something being true? 

German newspapers are owned by different people having different
points of view. In Canada, Izzy Asper owned 60% of the newspaper
business and making any critical reference to Israel was a firing
offense. As a consequence, one needed to take articles in Izzy's
papers with a grain of salt.

By contrast, if a whole raft of independent German newspapers reported
something, there was probably some truth to it.

>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:38:59 EDT 2009
Article: 2011933 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "Smith" and the Auschwitz camp complex. 13 reasons to not swallow the HOAX.
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Thu, 23 Apr 2009 23:29:18 GMT, "Truthseeker" 
wrote:

>I have read a lot of books where it says revised edition and it should be
>normal for a society to investigate all the facts without hindrance. The
>holocaust history is an history of indoctrinated where eveiveryone has to
>believe all of it. Does who do not comply 100 % are considered holocaust
>denier and will be hindered in every way and shape to critic the holocaust
>saga.

All cults operate the same way. Either one is 100% "on board" or one
is a heretic. The holocaust™ cult is no different in basic form than
other cults. There are certain foundation myths that all cult members
MUST accept.

>Kurt Knoll.
>
>
>"I'll Always Be 23/04/09"  wrote in message 
>news:aussies_suck-2D26DD.16224823042009@aries.weretis.net...
>> In article
>> ,
>> "Truthseeker" 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I have read a lot of books where it says revised edition
>>
>> Very interesting. Give us the title and
>> ISBN of just one.
>>
>>
>>> and it should be
>>> normal for a society to investigate all the facts without hindrance.
>>
>> As it is, however it should also be
>> normal for individuals to investigate
>> your lies without hindrance.
>>
>>
>>
>>> The
>>> holocaust history is an history of indoctrinated where eveiveryone has to
>>> believe all of it.
>>
>> Yes, you truly think we have to believe
>> all of your lies.
>>
>>
>>> Does who do not comply 100 % are considered holocaust
>>> denier and will be hindered in every way and shape to critic the 
>>> holocaust
>>> saga.
>>
>>
>> Yes, if we don't believe you we are
>> considered deniers and holohoaxers.
>>
>>
>>> Kurt Knoll.
>>>
>>> "Mavisbeacon"  wrote in message
>>> news:9a2d$49f0d729$596480f8$22368@news.upc.ie...
>>> >
>>> > "Al Smith"  wrote in message
>>> > news:gsq8li$24f$1@news.motzarella.org...
>>> >> On 4/23/2009 6:46 AM, Mavisbeacon wrote:
>>> >>> "Al Smith"  wrote in message
>>> >>> news:gsnsfd$4h9$2@news.motzarella.org...
>>> >>>> On 4/22/2009 1:18 PM, ZuLu wrote:
>>> >>>>> m-weber escribió:
>>> >>>>>> In article ,
>>> >>>>>> Al Smith   wrote:
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>> I wonder if you'd happen to know if there is a book available
>>> >>>>>>> (preferably for free download on-line) on the methodology of
>>> >>>>>>> Holocaust historians -- about the way in which they arrive at 
>>> >>>>>>> their
>>> >>>>>>> conclusions, and the materials they have used to reach these
>>> >>>>>>> conclusions?
>>> >>>>>> I'd look at Hilberg's "The Destruction of European Jewry".  Don't
>>> >>>>>> know about free download -- try Google books.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>> Sure, also available and on eMule
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> Graf Jurgen
>>> >>>>> Giant With Feet Of Clay. Raul Hilberg And His Standard Work On The
>>> >>>>> 'holocaust.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> In French
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> La Destruction De Raul Hilberg Par Lui-Meme
>>> >>>>> Proces Zundel, Introduction De Barbara Kulaszka 1988
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> (The Destruction of Raul Hilberg by himself, Zundel trial)
>>> >>>> OK, thanks, but are these works specifically focused on methodology?
>>> >>>> That's where I'd like some insight. I'm wondering how mainstream
>>> >>>> historians have reached their conclusions regarding the numbers of
>>> >>>> prisoners at the camps, the numbers gassed, and so on. Anyway, I'll
>>> >>>> copy down the titles of these texts and give them a Google to see 
>>> >>>> where
>>> >>>> they are.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Well they would not be "mainstream" unless they also worked on other
>>> >>> periods of history.
>>> >>> But if you are interested in scholarship you could begin here
>>> >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scholarly_method
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> If you are interested in REAL historical revision look here:
>>> >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_revisionism
>>> >>>
>>> >>> But holocaust denial is just "negationism" and not revision
>>> >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_revisionism_(negationism)
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Reputable and professional historians do not suppress parts of
>>> >>> quotations from documents that go against their own case, but take 
>>> >>> them
>>> >>> into account and if necessary amend their own case accordingly. They 
>>> >>> do
>>> >>> not present as genuine documents which they know to be forged just
>>> >>> because these forgeries happen to back up what they are saying. They 
>>> >>> do
>>> >>> not invent ingenious but implausible and utterly unsupported reasons 
>>> >>> for
>>> >>> distrusting genuine documents because these documents run counter to
>>> >>> their arguments; again, they amend their arguments if this is the 
>>> >>> case,
>>> >>> or indeed abandon them altogether. They do not consciously attribute
>>> >>> their own conclusions to books and other sources which in fact, on
>>> >>> closer inspection, actually say the opposite. They do not eagerly 
>>> >>> seek
>>> >>> out the highest possible figures in a series of statistics,
>>> >>> independently of their reliability or otherwise, simply because they
>>> >>> want for whatever reason to maximize the figure in question, but 
>>> >>> rather,
>>> >>> they assess all the available figures as impartially as possible in
>>> >>> order to arrive at a number that will withstand the critical scrutiny 
>>> >>> of
>>> >>> others. They do not knowingly mistranslate sources in foreign 
>>> >>> languages
>>> >>> in order to make them more serviceable to themselves. They do not
>>> >>> wilfully invent words, phrases, quotations, incidents and events for
>>> >>> which there is no historical evidence in order to make their 
>>> >>> arguments
>>> >>> more plausible.
>>> >>> Reference:
>>> >>> http://www.holocaustdenialontrial.org/en/trial/defense/evans/6
>>> >>>
>>> >>> When you have read that book come back and tell us if you have any
>>> >>> problems with it won't you?
>>> >>>
>>> >>> They also have some helpfull learning materials at the above site. if
>>> >>> you find any of their material is not fair then please tell us all.
>>> >>
>>> >> One thing I can tell you right now, that I've observed over the past
>>> >> couple of years. Historians are attached to universities, and publish
>>> >> through major scholarly book publishers. Their works are expected to 
>>> >> meet
>>> >> a certain standard, and if they fail to meet that standard, their 
>>> >> works
>>> >> are dismissed and mocked, and the careers of the writers are 
>>> >> destroyed.
>>> >> Any kind of serious questioning of the Holocaust dogma lies outside of
>>> >> the standard imposed by the universities and the scholarly book
>>> >> publishers and periodicals.
>>> >
>>> > No it does NOT!
>>> > Holocaust deniers frequently display SUB standard work! That is not 
>>> > extra
>>> > standard work!
>>> > All historians are not tenured in universities! Nor is it necessary 
>>> > they
>>> > are! AS long as they subscribe to the standards outlined above (which 
>>> > by
>>> > the way are NOT determied by what you observe) they are entitled to
>>> > respect by academics. Holocaust deniers do not live up to standards!
>>> >>
>>> >> Given these realities,
>>> >
>>> > What realities? The reality that most historians actually studied 
>>> > history
>>> > and got a degree in it and the reality that most people who can read 
>>> > and
>>> > write actually went to a school?
>>> >
>>> >>is it any surprise that historians are reluctant to write about
>>> >>revisionist ideas, except to refute or mock them?
>>> >
>>> > WRONG! Historians are and non historians are open to and DO revise
>>> > history. I for example have published on the revision of attitudes 
>>> > towards
>>> > the British in Ireland and that "Republicanism" should be revised.
>>> > Revision is not just about the WWII Holocaust. Holocaust denial is 
>>> > about
>>> > that. atrue historical revisionist is prepared to look into other 
>>> > periods
>>> > of history. Holocaust deniers are not.
>>> >
>>> >>They are terrified of losing their status, their jobs, their 
>>> >>livelihood.
>>> >>If you want an explanation as to why so few so-called "serious" 
>>> >>historians
>>> >>have touched revisionist ideas, there it is. Self-interest.
>>> >
>>> > So few historians (inded NONE) publish about the Holocaust not having
>>> > happened because it did happen and their expertise and knowledge 
>>> > convinces
>>> > them it did. why would they lie? Bigots and liars on the other hand are 
>>> > a
>>> > different matter.
>>> >
>>> >>They are protecting what they have built up over the years, and what 
>>> >>pays
>>> >>their bills.
>>> >
>>> > Nonsence! Academic historians for starters have tenure. They get paid
>>> > regardless. In fact it is more likely holocaust deniers have concocted
>>> > lies to sell books and make money.
>>> >
>>> >>Only those outside this hothouse scholarly environment are free to
>>> >>investigate revisionist ideas, because they have so much less to lose.
>>> >
>>> > Revisionism
>>> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_revisionism
>>> > is not negationism/ Holocaust denial
>>> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_revisionism_(negationism)
>>> >
>>> > I am neither an academic  holocaust historian or a WWII historian. My
>>> > qualifications are in science and part of my specialities is in the
>>> > history of science and the public understanding of it. I am not tenured 
>>> > in
>>> > any history department. I am a revisionist. I reject holocaust deniers 
>>> > as
>>> > valid and reliable history.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > 
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:39:00 EDT 2009
Article: 2011937 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: For eugen holman
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Fri, 24 Apr 2009 12:18:06 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
 wrote:

>
>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message 
>news:k1vuu41164r2v5iibtkgea1tbbv8j72isf@4ax.com...
>> On Tue, 21 Apr 2009 17:07:56 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
>>  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message
>>>news:o0tou45984sjkgrjq8a5pshlrasutuq8tf@4ax.com...
>>>> On Sun, 19 Apr 2009 14:47:27 +0300, holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene
>>>> Holman) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>In article , "B.H. 
>>>>>Cramer"
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> "Eugene Holman"  wrote in message
>>>>>> news:holman-1904091242490001@ke-hupnet122-26.hupnet.helsinki.fi...
>>>>>> > In article , "B.H.
>>>>>> > Cramer"
>>>>>> >  wrote:
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >> "Eugene Holman"  wrote in message
>>>>>> >> news:holman-1904091136010001@ke-hupnet122-26.hupnet.helsinki.fi...
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > 
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >> >> Nope. Not the Holocaust(tm). Attempt to do so in most European
>>>>>> >> >> nations
>>>>>> >> >> and
>>>>>> >> >> wind up in the slammer.
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> > An outright and easily debunked lie.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> Tell that to Germar Rudolf et al.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > He, Zündel, and Stolz are German citizens subject to German law, 
>>>>>> > even
>>>>>> > if
>>>>>> > Sylvia Stolz claims otherwise.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> They aren't the only ones the Germans have tried to nail for words
>>>>>> against
>>>>>> the yids' Holocaust(tm) outside the country.
>>>>>
>>>>>It's not "the yids' Holocaust(tm)". The Holocaust is one of the most
>>>>>infamous episodes of German history. The German government, as the legal
>>>>>successor to Hitler's Reich, regards itself as having the moral
>>>>>responsibility to honor the memory of the millions of Holocaust victims
>>>>>and to squelch efforts to deny or trivialize this period of German
>>>>>history.
>>>>
>>>> If the story is historically true, then it does not require the
>>>> draconian support of the power of the German state to keep it upright.
>>>
>>>Who are you to tell the people of Germany what laws they should make for
>>>themselves?
>>
>> Being ethnically German, I have every right to comment on the mess
>> being made among my people and my fatherland. Right now, the German
>> "government" consists of allied stooges.
>
>LOL! what is an "ethnic" German?

Any person born to German parents is an ethnic German
(Volksdeutscher).

>
>Are you a German citizen?

Yes. I have both German and Canadian citizenship.

>Do you live in germany?

Irrelevant.

>Do you pay taxes there?

Irrelevant.

>Do you own any property there?

Yes, but still irrelevant.

>
>If the German people make a law for themselves you are saying others outside 
>of Germany have a right to change that law even when the German people 
>themselves made it?

The German people consists of all people born to parents who were
German citizens. That automatically makes you a German citizen,
regardless of where you were born. Being born in Germany entitles you
to nothing. You are German only because your parents were German.
German citizenship is based on blood, not on place of birth.

That is why it is almost impossible for aliens to obtain German
citizenship, but Volksdeutsche from Rumania get instant German
citizenship despite having been absent for more than 850 years.

This is GUARANTEED by the German constitution.

>>
>>>
>>>> Clearly the German authorities believe that the story needs all the
>>>> support it can get.
>>>
>>>You miss the point entirely. Your logic is aresways. there is no reasoned
>>>support for the conclusion that laws were passed to prevent a weak made up
>>>story being critiqued. they were passed to respect and honour the dead.
>>
>> They only honour the dead if the dead happen to have been Jewish.
>> Nobody else matters.
>
>That isn't true either! about half of the people who died were NON Jews! 
>they also are remembered. But maybe ther is room for revision there. In 
>order to revise the millions of non Jews who died as a majority you would 
>have to accept the minority group of about six miullion Jews also were 
>killed.
>
>
>>>>
>>>>> Much can be said about the means and methods used, but the
>>>>>majority of Germans as well as many people in neighboring countries once
>>>>>victimized by the Holocaust, support the efforts that Germany takes
>>>>>against Holocaust deniers and trivializers.
>>
>> The German people don't support it. They are just afraid to say
>> anything.
>
>Which means they support the law. If they didnt support it they wouldnt have 
>passed it. I would vote against such a law in my country but I am not going 
>to tell the Germans what to do.
>
>>>>
>>>> You're dreaming in technicolor. Germans don't support this BRD
>>>> witch-hunt, but they are afraid to complain and for much the same
>>>> reasons as they were afraid to complain during the NS period. It is
>>>> just a new bunch operating a reign of terror.
>>>
>>>Your logic is backwards again. it is quite the opposite. ther are no death
>>>camps today
>>
>> It is debatable as to whether there were any earlier.
>
>No it isn't! Well it is a one sided debate just as the Moon landings and the 
>Earth being Round is debatable.
>
>
>> Some allied
>> camps had death rates higher than the so-called Nazi death camps,
>
>No they hadn't! Which ones? Can you provide ANY evidence?
>
>>and
>> they didn't even need special measures such as gas chambers to achieve
>> these high death rates.
>
>You are saying that WWII European camps run by the Allies  had higher death 
>rates then Nazi death camps? Which ones had higher rates? Any details?
>
>
>>>and to argue that such laws were introduced by tyrants who reigh
>>>by terror just like the Nazis and their death camps is to argue against 
>>>the
>>>very basis with which you began.
>>
>> You are babbling propaganda nonsense. My parents lived in Germany
>> during that period,
>
>So what? are you asking me to believe travellers tales?
>
>>and the conditions were simply NOT the way that
>> allied propaganda likes to depict it.
>
>And your evidence is?
>
>
>>>
>>>[snip]
>>> 
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:39:01 EDT 2009
Article: 2011938 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: For eugen holman
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Sat, 25 Apr 2009 09:31:32 +1000, "B.H. Cramer"
 wrote:

>
>"Mavisbeacon"  wrote in message 
>news:85844$49f1c40c$596480f8$12818@news.upc.ie...
>>
>> "Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message 
>> news:k1vuu41164r2v5iibtkgea1tbbv8j72isf@4ax.com...
>>> On Tue, 21 Apr 2009 17:07:56 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
>>>  wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message
>>>>news:o0tou45984sjkgrjq8a5pshlrasutuq8tf@4ax.com...
>>>>> On Sun, 19 Apr 2009 14:47:27 +0300, holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene
>>>>> Holman) wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>In article , "B.H. 
>>>>>>Cramer"
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Eugene Holman"  wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:holman-1904091242490001@ke-hupnet122-26.hupnet.helsinki.fi...
>>>>>>> > In article , "B.H.
>>>>>>> > Cramer"
>>>>>>> >  wrote:
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> >> "Eugene Holman"  wrote in message
>>>>>>> >> news:holman-1904091136010001@ke-hupnet122-26.hupnet.helsinki.fi...
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > 
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> >> >> Nope. Not the Holocaust(tm). Attempt to do so in most European
>>>>>>> >> >> nations
>>>>>>> >> >> and
>>>>>>> >> >> wind up in the slammer.
>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>> >> > An outright and easily debunked lie.
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >> Tell that to Germar Rudolf et al.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > He, Zündel, and Stolz are German citizens subject to German law, 
>>>>>>> > even
>>>>>>> > if
>>>>>>> > Sylvia Stolz claims otherwise.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> They aren't the only ones the Germans have tried to nail for words
>>>>>>> against
>>>>>>> the yids' Holocaust(tm) outside the country.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>It's not "the yids' Holocaust(tm)". The Holocaust is one of the most
>>>>>>infamous episodes of German history. The German government, as the 
>>>>>>legal
>>>>>>successor to Hitler's Reich, regards itself as having the moral
>>>>>>responsibility to honor the memory of the millions of Holocaust victims
>>>>>>and to squelch efforts to deny or trivialize this period of German
>>>>>>history.
>>>>>
>>>>> If the story is historically true, then it does not require the
>>>>> draconian support of the power of the German state to keep it upright.
>>>>
>>>>Who are you to tell the people of Germany what laws they should make for
>>>>themselves?
>>>
>>> Being ethnically German, I have every right to comment on the mess
>>> being made among my people and my fatherland. Right now, the German
>>> "government" consists of allied stooges.
>>
>> LOL! what is an "ethnic" German?
>
>You don't know?

Poor Mavis is an airhead. She obviously doesn't understand the concept
of "tribal state" and with that she cannot understand European
history.

>
>That's the end of conversation with you, you brain-dead twat.
>
>Bye.
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:39:01 EDT 2009
Article: 2011940 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: For eugen holman
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Fri, 24 Apr 2009 12:20:03 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
 wrote:

>
>"B.H. Cramer"  wrote in message 
>news:npednW55bNCc8GzUnZ2dnVY3gomdnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>
>> "Mavisbeacon"  wrote in message 
>> news:641fe$49f0578b$596480f8$1651@news.upc.ie...
>>>
>>> "B.H. Cramer"  wrote in message 
>>> news:fs6dnZp8u7a3vW3UnZ2dnVY3gomdnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>>
>>>> "Mavisbeacon"  wrote in message 
>>>> news:cae69$49ef7fd5$596480f8$10940@news.upc.ie...
>>>>>
>>>>> "B.H. Cramer"  wrote in message 
>>>>> news:TKydnXwbrfTFaHPUnZ2dnVY3go2dnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Mavisbeacon"  wrote in message 
>>>>>> news:6baf9$49eee64a$596480f8$16787@news.upc.ie...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "B.H. Cramer"  wrote in message 
>>>>>>> news:se2dnfURn58bY3fUnZ2dnVY3goSdnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Eugene Holman"  wrote in message 
>>>>>>>> news:holman-1904091242490001@ke-hupnet122-26.hupnet.helsinki.fi...
>>>>>>>>> In article , "B.H. 
>>>>>>>>> Cramer"
>>>>>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "Eugene Holman"  wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>> news:holman-1904091136010001@ke-hupnet122-26.hupnet.helsinki.fi...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> >> Nope. Not the Holocaust(tm). Attempt to do so in most European 
>>>>>>>>>> >> nations
>>>>>>>>>> >> and
>>>>>>>>>> >> wind up in the slammer.
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> > An outright and easily debunked lie.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Tell that to Germar Rudolf et al.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> He, Zündel, and Stolz are German citizens subject to German law, 
>>>>>>>>> even if
>>>>>>>>> Sylvia Stolz claims otherwise.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> They aren't the only ones the Germans have tried to nail for words 
>>>>>>>> against the yids' Holocaust(tm) outside the country.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If the words are said publicly anywhere, the Germans seem to be on 
>>>>>>>>>> a mission
>>>>>>>>>> to charge those speaking.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> You're telling porkies again.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> No, you are.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> No I am not.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Germany is *one* European country. It can enforce its Holocaust 
>>>>>>>>> denial
>>>>>>>>> laws against its own citizens anywhere, and it has tried, with 
>>>>>>>>> little
>>>>>>>>> success, to have them enforced throughout the EU against anyone of
>>>>>>>>> whatever citizenship who violates them. That is not what you have 
>>>>>>>>> been
>>>>>>>>> claiming.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That they have tried is what matters. That the continue to try is 
>>>>>>>> worrying.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Actually NO it ISNT what matters!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Shut up school m'arm.
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Off topic whine and incorrect assumptions snipped.
>>>
>>> trying to "nail for words against the yids' Holocaust(tm) outside the 
>>> country." is notpossible because of criminal jurisdiction not applying 
>>> which is why it is on topic you fool.
>>
>> Tell that to Doctor Toben, silly twat. Tell that to Bishop Williamson, 
>> silly twat.
>>
>> Why do you tell porkies?
>
>What crime did Bishop Williamson commit? When and where was he charged? 
>
He is guilty of herersy against the holocaust™ cult, with the result
that the pope caved in to Zionist pressure.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:39:01 EDT 2009
Article: 2011944 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: For eugen holman
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Fri, 24 Apr 2009 12:21:26 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
 wrote:

>
>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message 
>news:idvuu4p0qo93i5arhipb7gn3k889k8pvnk@4ax.com...
>> On Tue, 21 Apr 2009 17:00:25 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
>>  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"B.H. Cramer"  wrote in message
>>>news:se2dnfURn58bY3fUnZ2dnVY3goSdnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>>
>>>> "Eugene Holman"  wrote in message
>>>> news:holman-1904091242490001@ke-hupnet122-26.hupnet.helsinki.fi...
>>>>> In article , "B.H. 
>>>>> Cramer"
>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> "Eugene Holman"  wrote in message
>>>>>> news:holman-1904091136010001@ke-hupnet122-26.hupnet.helsinki.fi...
>>>>>
>>>>> 
>>>>>
>>>>>> >> Nope. Not the Holocaust(tm). Attempt to do so in most European
>>>>>> >> nations
>>>>>> >> and
>>>>>> >> wind up in the slammer.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > An outright and easily debunked lie.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tell that to Germar Rudolf et al.
>>>>>
>>>>> He, Zündel, and Stolz are German citizens subject to German law, even 
>>>>> if
>>>>> Sylvia Stolz claims otherwise.
>>>>
>>>> They aren't the only ones the Germans have tried to nail for words 
>>>> against
>>>> the yids' Holocaust(tm) outside the country.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> If the words are said publicly anywhere, the Germans seem to be on a
>>>>>> mission
>>>>>> to charge those speaking.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You're telling porkies again.
>>>>>
>>>>> No, you are.
>>>>
>>>> No I am not.
>>>>>
>>>>> Germany is *one* European country. It can enforce its Holocaust denial
>>>>> laws against its own citizens anywhere, and it has tried, with little
>>>>> success, to have them enforced throughout the EU against anyone of
>>>>> whatever citizenship who violates them. That is not what you have been
>>>>> claiming.
>>>>
>>>> That they have tried is what matters. That the continue to try is
>>>> worrying.
>>>
>>>Actually NO it ISNT what matters!
>>>If you CLAIM that most EU countries have holocaust denial as a crime and
>>>they DONT then you are wrong. it does not matter how many times someone
>>>tried to introduce such a law if it was not introduced.
>>>
>>>And i suggest you learn something about "criminal juristiction" before you
>>>think the Germans can enforce a german criminal law anywhere outside of
>>>Germany.
>>
>> They regularly do. Where the hell have you been?
>
>So you can give me three examples of Germany doing this since you claim it 
>is so "regular"?
>Well?

When the editor of Spiegel magazine criticized F.J. Strauß, the
minister of defence, Augstein was charged with "treason, bribery and
forgery" and fled to Spain. At Germany's insistence, Augstein was sent
back to Germany in a sealed railway carriage.

Germany demanded that Zundel be turned over to them, and the
government of Canada caved in and complied, even though Zundel had
committed no crimes in Canada.

There was the recent attempt by Germany to get a British subject sent
to Germany because of holocaust™ comments, but the Brits didn't bite.

>
>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> By the way, I neglected to include Ireland in my list. The revised
>>>>> statistics are 12 vs. 33, that is to say 12 out of 45, 27%, of European
>>>>> nations have criminalized Holocaust denial. Your specious claim that
>>>>> publicly denying the Holocaust "in most European nations" will see you
>>>>> winding up in the slammer is even further refuted.
>>>
>>>I didnt read the list but Ireland do NOT have a holocaust denial crime. 
>>>they
>>>do have incitement to hatred which requires some ACT to happen. In fact
>>>under Common Law ( as in the UK and Ireland) there has to be an ACT as 
>>>well
>>>as mallicious forethought mens rei and actus rea i thikk the terms are.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> You don't find that ludicrous?
>>>
>>>find what lidicrous? That your claims about "most european countries" was
>>>wrong?
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Being gaoled for a belief is draconian.
>>>
>>>So you oppose the Nurnberg Laws against jews?
>>>Look! You have been shown that in most european countries you cant be 
>>>gaoled
>>>for a belief. In common law juristictions you have to have a malicious
>>>thought AND have an action based on it for a crime to be committed. In 
>>>other
>>>words the same act without the forethought may not be as bad e.g.
>>>manslaughter is not murder or the thought without an action eg. saying or
>>>believing the Holocaust didnt happen is not a crime.
>>>
>>>
>>> 
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:39:02 EDT 2009
Article: 2011945 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: For eugen holman
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Sat, 25 Apr 2009 09:33:48 +1000, "B.H. Cramer"
 wrote:

>
>"Mavisbeacon"  wrote in message 
>news:bb928$49f1c40d$596480f8$12818@news.upc.ie...
>>
>> "Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message 
>> news:idvuu4p0qo93i5arhipb7gn3k889k8pvnk@4ax.com...
>>> On Tue, 21 Apr 2009 17:00:25 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
>>>  wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>"B.H. Cramer"  wrote in message
>>>>news:se2dnfURn58bY3fUnZ2dnVY3goSdnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>>>
>>>>> "Eugene Holman"  wrote in message
>>>>> news:holman-1904091242490001@ke-hupnet122-26.hupnet.helsinki.fi...
>>>>>> In article , "B.H. 
>>>>>> Cramer"
>>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Eugene Holman"  wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:holman-1904091136010001@ke-hupnet122-26.hupnet.helsinki.fi...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> >> Nope. Not the Holocaust(tm). Attempt to do so in most European
>>>>>>> >> nations
>>>>>>> >> and
>>>>>>> >> wind up in the slammer.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > An outright and easily debunked lie.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tell that to Germar Rudolf et al.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> He, Zündel, and Stolz are German citizens subject to German law, even 
>>>>>> if
>>>>>> Sylvia Stolz claims otherwise.
>>>>>
>>>>> They aren't the only ones the Germans have tried to nail for words 
>>>>> against
>>>>> the yids' Holocaust(tm) outside the country.
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If the words are said publicly anywhere, the Germans seem to be on a
>>>>>>> mission
>>>>>>> to charge those speaking.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You're telling porkies again.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No, you are.
>>>>>
>>>>> No I am not.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Germany is *one* European country. It can enforce its Holocaust denial
>>>>>> laws against its own citizens anywhere, and it has tried, with little
>>>>>> success, to have them enforced throughout the EU against anyone of
>>>>>> whatever citizenship who violates them. That is not what you have been
>>>>>> claiming.
>>>>>
>>>>> That they have tried is what matters. That the continue to try is
>>>>> worrying.
>>>>
>>>>Actually NO it ISNT what matters!
>>>>If you CLAIM that most EU countries have holocaust denial as a crime and
>>>>they DONT then you are wrong. it does not matter how many times someone
>>>>tried to introduce such a law if it was not introduced.
>>>>
>>>>And i suggest you learn something about "criminal juristiction" before 
>>>>you
>>>>think the Germans can enforce a german criminal law anywhere outside of
>>>>Germany.
>>>
>>> They regularly do. Where the hell have you been?
>>
>> So you can give me three examples of Germany doing this since you claim it 
>> is so "regular"?
>
>Rudolf, Stolz, Zundel.
>
>There are more. Many more.
>
>You're a bit of a dill, girlie. I originally thought you had at least a 
>modicum of intelligence, but you have destroyed that impression.

She really has. In the case of mcfee/mcvay, it is clearly a case of
paid propagandists, but this woman comes across as genuinely stupid.

>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:39:02 EDT 2009
Article: 2012371 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jesus tried to warn us about the Jews -"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lust of your father ye will do."
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Thu, 23 Apr 2009 21:33:33 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
 wrote:

>
>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message 
>news:asc1v4t6a8m19vok2g1plh70m1emrbgn1m@4ax.com...
>[snip]
>
>>>>
>>>> The ONLY references to Jesus ANYWHERE are in the New Testament. There
>>>> is no independent verification that such a person ever actually
>>>> existed. The existence of Jesus is something taken on faith.
>>>
>>>WRONG! You have ignored the evidence alredy given to you in this very
>>>discussion!
>>
>> Well, I suggest that you write a LONG letter to the various seminaries
>> around the world and show them the error of their ways. There is zero
>> independent evidence of Christ's existence, let alone his deity.
>
>Really? which seminaries suggest thet the ONLY evidence for the historicity 
>of Jesus is exclusively Biblical as you claim ?

Any Lutheran seminary in Germany, Canada, Sweden  Finland, or Denmark
will point out that there is no "proof" of Christ's existence. It is
all a matter of faith.

>
>By the way if you had bothered to read the references below with which you 
>were furnished you would already know they include ROMAN CATHOLIC  CLERGY 
>who are accepted by the roamn church. they also onclude christian Orthodox 
>and Anglicans and Christian heretics and Jews and atheistists and people of 
>no religion all of whom are renowned scholars and accept there is sound 
>evidence that Jesus did in fact exist. they also range from the time of 
>Jesus to present day.

I repeat, there is no record of Christ's existence anywhere except the
New Testament. If you find some, you will become world famous
overnight.

We're not talking here about the opinions of people who lived after
Christ's time, but of contemporary people or institutions that made a
mention of him in their writings.

No Roman official, including Pontius Pilate, made any mention of him
or his trial.

No contemporary writers made any mention of him.


>
>
>And don't try to CHANGE the subject from historicity of Jesus to alleged 
>Divinity of Jesus with your "let alone" comments!
>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>and i told you all this before and you seemed to have ignored it! 
>>>remember?
>>>
>>>Message-ID: 
>>>With few exceptions (such as Robert M. Price), virtually all scholars in 
>>>the
>>>fields of biblical studies and history agree that Jesus was a Jewish 
>>>teacher
>>>from Galilee who was regarded as a healer, was baptized by John the 
>>>Baptist,
>>>was accused of sedition against the Roman Empire, and on the orders of 
>>>Roman
>>>Governor Pontius Pilate was sentenced to death by crucifixion.
>>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus
>>> Raymond E. Brown, The Death of the Messiah: From Gethsemane to the Grave
>>>(New York: Doubleday, Anchor Bible Reference Library 1994), p. 964; D. A.
>>>Carson, et al., p. 50-56; Shaye J.D. Cohen, From the Maccabees to the
>>>Mishnah, Westminster Press, 1987, p. 78, 93, 105, 108; John Dominic 
>>>Crossan,
>>>The Historical Jesus: The Life of a Mediterranean Jewish Peasant,
>>>HarperCollins, 1991, p. xi-xiii; Michael Grant, p. 34-35, 78, 166, 200;
>>>Paula Fredriksen, Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews, Alfred A. Knopf,
>>>1999, p. 6-7, 105-110, 232-234, 266; John P. Meier, vol. 1:68, 146, 199,
>>>278, 386, 2:726; E.P. Sanders, pp. 12-13; Geza Vermes, Jesus the Jew
>>>(Philadelphia: Fortress Press 1973), p. 37.; Paul L. Maier, In the 
>>>Fullness
>>>of Time, Kregel, 1991, pp. 1, 99, 121, 171; N. T. Wright, The Meaning of
>>>Jesus: Two Visions, HarperCollins, 1998, pp. 32, 83, 100-102, 222; Ben
>>>Witherington III, pp. 12-20.
>>>
>>>>Jesus wrote nothing,
>>>He is recorded as having writing twice in the sand before he said "let him
>>>without sin cast the first stone".
>>>
>>>>built nothing,
>>>It would be unlikley if he was the son of a carpenter that he built 
>>>nothing.
>>>
>>>>founded nothing,
>>>
>>>Eh. He is also recorded as saying "On this rock I found my Church" to 
>>>Peter.
>>>
>>>>and
>>>> simply was not noticed by anybody other than the people who wrote the
>>>> scriptures.
>>>
>>>Your point being? Was "Ozymandias King of Kings" noticed? Look up "Sailing
>>>to Byzanthium".
>>>
>>>By the way it is also WRONG! Many people followed him who didn't write at
>>>all. Just as many people followed others in that time also. ever heard of
>>>simon Magnus , simon the magician? Or Barabbas?
>>>
>>>[end excerpt]>
>>>> Are all Roman Catholics as stupid as Mavis?
>>>
>>>Are all holocaust deniers as dishonest as you? you were shown all this on
>>>april 2:Outside the accepted canon of Holy Scriptures from heretical or 
>>>non
>>>cononical writings:
>>>
>>>The authors whose works are contained in the New Testament sometimes quote
>>>from creeds, or confessions of faith, that obviously predate their 
>>>writings.
>>>Scholars suppose that some of these creeds date to within a few years of
>>>Jesus' death, and were developed within the Christian community in
>>>Jerusalem.
>>> basic text is that of Oscar Cullmann, available in English in a 
>>> translation
>>>by J. K. S. Reid titled, The Earliest Christian Confessions (London:
>>>Lutterworth, 1949)
>>>Jesus is a large factor in New Testament apocrypha, works excluded from 
>>>the
>>>canon (Gnostic texts) as it developed because they were judged not to be
>>>inspired.
>>>
>>>Early Christian sources outside the New Testament also mention Jesus and
>>>details of his life. Important texts from the Apostolic Fathers are, to 
>>>name
>>>just the most significant and ancient, Clement of Rome (c. 100),[33]
>>>Ignatius of Antioch (c. 107-110),[34] and Justin Martyr.[35]
>>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_to_the_Trallians
>>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_to_the_Smyrneans
>>>
>>>Papias of Hierapolis
>>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papias
>>>
>>>
>>>Quadratus of Athens
>>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quadratus_of_Athens
>>>
>>>
>>>Greco-Roman sources
>>>Passages relevant to Christianity in the works of four major non-Christian
>>>writers of the late 1st and early 2nd centuries - Josephus, Tacitus,
>>>Suetonius, and Pliny the Younger.
>>>Josephus' writings, which document John the Baptist, James the Just, and
>>>possibly also Jesus, are of the most interest to scholars dealing with the
>>>historicity of Jesus
>>>Josephus calls James "the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ."
>>>http://www.ccel.org/ccel/josephus/works/files/ant-20.htm
>>>Tacitus, in his Annals written c. 115, mentions popular opinion about
>>>Christus, without historical details
>>>According to Suetonius, chapter 25, there occurred in Rome, during the 
>>>reign
>>>of emperor Claudius (circa AD 50), "persistent disturbances ... at the
>>>instigation of Chrestus"
>>>
>>>
>>>Thallus, of whom very little is known, wrote a history from the Trojan War
>>>to, according to Eusebius, 109 BC. No work of Thallus survives. There is 
>>>one
>>>reference to Thallus having written about events beyond 109 BC. Julius
>>>Africanus, writing c. 221, while writing about the crucifixion of Jesus,
>>>mentioned Thallus. Thus:
>>>On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks 
>>>were
>>>rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were
>>>thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in his third book of History, calls 
>>>(as
>>>appears to me without reason) an eclipse of the sun.
>>>Julius Africanus, Extant Writings XVIII in Ante-Nicene Fathers, ed. A.
>>>Roberts and J. Donaldson (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1973) vol. VI, p. 130
>>>Lucian, a second century Romano-Syrian satirist, who wrote in Greek, 
>>>wrote:
>>>The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day - the distinguished
>>>personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that
>>>account. You see, these misguided creatures start with the general
>>>conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains the 
>>>contempt
>>>of death and voluntary self-devotion which are so common among them; and
>>>then it was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all
>>>brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of
>>>Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws
>>>Lucian, The Death of Peregrine, 11-13 in The Works of Lucian of Samosata,
>>>translated by H. W. Fowler (Oxford: Clarendon, 1949) vol. 4
>>>
>>>Celsus wrote, about 180AD, a book against the Christians, which is now 
>>>only
>>>known through Origen's refutation of it. Celsus apparently accused Jesus 
>>>of
>>>being a child and a sorcerer Morton Smith, Jesus the Magician: Charlatan 
>>>or
>>>Son of God? (1978) pp. 78-79.
>>>
>>>ther are Jewish records too but we ell skip them for now
>>>
>>>In The Historical Figure of Jesus, E.P. Sanders used Alexander the Great 
>>>as
>>>a paradigm-the available sources tell us much about Alexander's deeds, but
>>>nothing about his thoughts. "The sources for Jesus are better, however, 
>>>than
>>>those that deal with Alexander" and "the superiority of evidence for Jesus
>>>is seen when we ask what he thought."
>>>
>>>Actually I am reminded of Sanders comparison between jesus and alexander
>>>now. But more so the idea of the difference between Modern and Ancient
>>>history. Paul Barnett respected classicist and historian - "scholars of
>>>ancient history have always recognized the 'subjectivity' factor in their
>>>available sources" and "have so few sources available compared to their
>>>modern counterparts that they will gladly seize whatever scraps of
>>>information that are at hand." IN "Is the New Testament History?", p.1.
>>>
>>> 
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:39:03 EDT 2009
Article: 2012373 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jesus tried to warn us about the Jews -"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lust of your father ye will do."
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Fri, 24 Apr 2009 14:54:16 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
 wrote:

>
>"B.H. Cramer"  wrote in message 
>news:Yc6dnVwqf6aL7WzUnZ2dnVY3go-dnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>
>> "Gord McFee"  wrote in message 
>> news:k632v41bh6h81ulbq1ort0fo1adrg0avdp@4ax.com...
>>> On Thu, 23 Apr 2009 14:31:05 -0400, in
>>> , Johannes von Ebersdorf
>>>  wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Thu, 23 Apr 2009 12:53:24 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
>>>>  wrote:
>>>>
>>>> >"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message
>>>> >news:240vu4dae18c98gkkc61ba3m8gs5u0f0if@4ax.com...
>>>> >> On Tue, 21 Apr 2009 16:46:12 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
>>>> >>  wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>"Gord McFee"  wrote in message
>>>> >>>news:28eBl.115130$9j5.6247@en-nntp-01.dc1.easynews.com...
>>>> >>>> On 4/2/2009 4:17 PM, Johannes von Ebersdorf wrote:
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>> On Wed, 1 Apr 2009 15:22:10 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
>>>> >>>>>  wrote:
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>> "Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message
>>>> >>>>>> news:1qq4t41c7o2r9n0v9h33uph60bvnh8gmrf@4ax.com...
>>>> >>>>>>> On Tue, 31 Mar 2009 09:32:48 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
>>>> >>>>>>>  wrote:
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>> "B.H. Cramer"  wrote in message
>>>> >>>>>>>> news:CsmdnZPaZOVxpl7UnZ2dnVY3go2dnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>> >>>>>>>> [snip]
>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Jesus was a Jew himself.
>>>> >>>>>>>>> Are you sure about that?  You can prove that?
>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>> The historicity of Jesus is an established field of research.
>>>> >>>>>>>> But if anyone believes in Jesus Christ existing in the past 
>>>> >>>>>>>> then it
>>>> >>>>>>>> is
>>>> >>>>>>>> ludicrous to believe he was NOT a Jew.
>>>> >>>>>>>> If one is claiming that Jesus Christ never existed then 
>>>> >>>>>>>> claiming he
>>>> >>>>>>>> was or
>>>> >>>>>>>> was not a Jew is pointless since one assigning an attribute to
>>>> >>>>>>>> something
>>>> >>>>>>>> which does not exist - a bit like saying the dragon was BLUE. 
>>>> >>>>>>>> It is
>>>> >>>>>>>> pointless to argue about whether they are blue red or yellow if 
>>>> >>>>>>>> your
>>>> >>>>>>>> main
>>>> >>>>>>>> point is that dragons never existed.
>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>> As it happens though the historicity of Jesus is as established 
>>>> >>>>>>>> (or
>>>> >>>>>>>> probably
>>>> >>>>>>>> more established) as say Alexander the Great for example.
>>>> >>>>>>> Actually no, since lots of people saw or experienced Alexander 
>>>> >>>>>>> the
>>>> >>>>>>> Great,
>>>> >>>>>> Really?
>>>> >>>>>> And your evidence is?
>>>> >>>>>> Lots of people also saw and experienced Jesus by the way.
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> Nonsense. Jesus wrote nothing, built nothing, founded nothing, and
>>>> >>>>> simply was not noticed by anybody other than the people who wrote 
>>>> >>>>> the
>>>> >>>>> scriptures.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> Sure got popular though, didn't he?  I guess you denier trash are
>>>> >>>> envious.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>He is recorded as having written TWICE. that isnt to say he did not 
>>>> >>>write
>>>> >>>more. the occasion was before he said "let him without sin cast the 
>>>> >>>first
>>>> >>>stone". i have already posted references by several people who were 
>>>> >>>not
>>>> >>>Christians and from others who were regarded as hetetics who wrote 
>>>> >>>about
>>>> >>>Jesus. Certainly MORE than anything produced on socrates Plato or
>>>> >>>alexander.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> The ONLY references to Jesus ANYWHERE are in the New Testament. There
>>>> >> is no independent verification that such a person ever actually
>>>> >> existed. The existence of Jesus is something taken on faith.
>>>> >
>>>> >WRONG! You have ignored the evidence alredy given to you in this very
>>>> >discussion!
>>>>
>>>> Well, I suggest that you write a LONG letter to the various seminaries
>>>> around the world and show them the error of their ways. There is zero
>>>> independent evidence of Christ's existence, let alone his deity.
>>>
>>> Since his deity is a question of faith,
>>
>> As is yours, old feller. And your fellow Holocaustians.
>
>I never made any claims about deities!
>
>YOU claimed no evidence for Jesus except the writings in the Bible.
>You were WRONG!
>
>The Historicity of Jesus is an established field of history - unlike 
>holocaust denial! 

This sounds like Roman Catholic hocus pocus. No Roman historian or
government official of antiquity mentioned Jesus. 

>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:39:04 EDT 2009
Article: 2012380 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: NIZKOR Continues to Lie about Diesel Exhaust--and everything else!
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Fri, 24 Apr 2009 11:20:21 +0300, holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene
Holman) wrote:

>In article <0hp0v4du1mlu2drn7pf3u36iv3p1q5bql9@4ax.com>,
>ebersdorf@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 23 Apr 2009 10:20:10 +0300, holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene
>> Holman) wrote:
>> 
>> >In article ,
>> >ebersdorf@gmail.com wrote:
>> >
>
>> >> 
>> >> Actually they did capture Stalingrad. 
>> >
>> >No they didn't. They managed to get into Stalingrad, but encountered
>> >unexpectedly robust resistance. They engaged in street-to-street,
>> >house-to-house, and even room-to-room combat, but the Wehrmacht *never*
>> >captured Stalingrad, but rather only occupied certain parts of the city.
>> >If you know anything about Russian gramar, its the difference between
>> >imperfective aspect (nesovershennyj vid) and perfective aspect
>> >(sovershennyj vid), between continuous "was doing" and punctive "did".
>> 
>> My books say that the 6th army captured the city but that they were
>> surrounded a few days later as Soviet reinforcements arrived. 
>
>Your book or your memory of it is wrong. The Sixth Army captured a large
>part of Stalingrad, but it never took the city completely or managed to
>terminate robust resistance to its presence anywhere. Of the three cities
>on the Wehrmacht's "must-capure" list, Leningrad, Moscow, and Stalingrad,
>Stalingrad was the only one that the Wehrmacht actually entered and
>partially occupied, but it never captured it as, for example, Kiev,
>Odessa, and Riga were captured. Everyone who has any understanding of WW
>II knows that the inability of the Wehrmacht to capture Stalingrad
>resulted, first, in an ultimatum from the Soviets to surrender or get
>their asses kicked, and in the Germans' rejection of the ultimatum and
>their asses being kicked all tge way back to Berlin.

German losses on the eastern front from the beginning of hostilities
to 31-MAR-45 amounted to 985,316 fallen and 1,281,285 missing, whereas
Russian losses, at least according to them, were of the order of
25,000,000 and that with the benefit of having a better than 15 to 1
numerical advantage over the German forces. A few instances of
"kicking asses" of that sort, and the Russians would be extinct.

By your reasoning, a foreign enemy would have failed to occupy the USA
if they neglected Rhode Island or Hawaii. In the larger picture, Rhode
Island really doesn't matter, and neither do some scattered suburbs of
Stalingrad.

Your "kicking ass" model is really ridiculous when you consider that
your Bolshevik heroes arrived at the eastern boundary of Silesia in
December of 1944 and were only able to advance as far as Dresden, a
mere 100 km further west by May 8, 1945 and that with enormous losses.
All the Russians had going for them was huge numbers, but the Russians
are not particularly good campaigners.



>
>> The
>> Russians clearly had no supply problems. Paulus could have easily
>> broken out of the encirclement, but he was ordered not to do so, since
>> his situation would be relieved by the 4th army. As it turned out,
>> that didn't happen, and with each passing day the 6th army became
>> weaker and less able to stage a breakout.
>
>Yes. They were surrounded. Hardly the situation that would prevail if they
>had captured the city.
> 
>> Of the 300,000 soldiers in the 6th army, approximately one third died
>> in the fighting, one third were flown out during the weeks of the
>> encirclement, and roughly one third went into Soviet captivity.
>> 
>> Your version of the events and your glorification of the Soviet
>> Communists make no sense. They sound like something taken out of a
>> Soviet propaganda manual.
>
>Quatsch! The Wehrmacht failed to capture Stalingrad and it was
>subsequently routed by the Soviet Army. This battle marked the end of the
>German capture of Soviet territory and the beginning of its retreat back
>to Berlin. This is a fact and there is nothing propagandistic or
>glorificational about it. Simply put, the Soviets won the Battle of
>Stalingrad, the Germans lost it big time, and the loss constituted the
>psychological and military turning point in WW II.
>
>
>
>Regards,
>Eugene Holman


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:39:04 EDT 2009
Article: 2012381 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: NIZKOR Continues to Lie about Diesel Exhaust--and everything else!
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Sat, 25 Apr 2009 08:45:32 +1000, "B.H. Cramer"
 wrote:

>
>"Kenneth McVay OBC"  wrote in message 
>news:aoSdnZs1trl6uG_UnZ2dnUVZ_r5i4p2d@vex.net...
>> In article ,
>> The hapless Intellectual Giant of Holocaust Revisionism,
>> Kurt Knoll, reigning Village Idiot of Kitimat  and Laughing
>> Stock of UseNet, fluffed his Chicken Yellow Hitler Jugend
>> Tutu with the "I am knolling" Cross and  wrote:
>>
>>>Interesting Eugene. Now tell us what did happen to the German soldier in
>>>Siberia. Or as a matter of fact to the German slave labour in Siberia 
>>>after
>>>world warII.
>>
>> There have never been any Germans in Siberia.
>
>Really? Do you want to rethink that stupid statement?
>
LOL

He never thought about it in the first place, which is why he made it.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:39:04 EDT 2009
Article: 2012384 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hungary plans to penalize Holocaust denial
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
Message-ID: 
References: <758e6gF16rfncU1@mid.individual.net> <63794ae1-71ec-4b7c-81ad-5ac516e58915@z9g2000yqi.googlegroups.com> <2389144c-da32-49d3-bb02-da9f60d3b488@c18g2000prh.googlegroups.com> <52l1v453l0ea7e24jpm7spf1ogo2v16kac@4ax.com> 
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On Fri, 24 Apr 2009 17:49:31 +1000, "B.H. Cramer"
 wrote:

>
>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message 
>news:52l1v453l0ea7e24jpm7spf1ogo2v16kac@4ax.com...
>> On Thu, 23 Apr 2009 07:04:11 -0700 (PDT), ????? ? ??????
>>  wrote:
>>
>>>On Apr 23, 8:32 am, "Bent Attorney Esq." 
>>>wrote:
>>>> On Apr 22, 7:43 am, "Heinrich"  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> > BUDAPEST, Hungary, April 20 (UPI) -- Hungary's Cabinet education and 
>>>> > culture
>>>> > minister asked deputies in Parliament to pass a bill to make denying 
>>>> > the
>>>> > Holocaust punishable by law.
>>>>
>>>> > Istvan Hiller, the education and culture minister, told the lawmakers 
>>>> > Monday
>>>> > the Holocaust denial is a crime in many European countries, adding 
>>>> > there are
>>>> > questions about which there is no room for compromise, the Hungarian 
>>>> > news
>>>> > agency MTI reported.
>>>>
>>>> > Hiller said a democratic duty is to condemn Holocaust denial.
>>>>
>>>> > Hundreds of far-right activists, many of them sporting uniforms 
>>>> > similar to
>>>> > Nazi ones, demonstrated "against Zionist rule" and in favor of 
>>>> > Holocaust
>>>> > denial in the streets of Budapest Saturday.
>>>>
>>>> > On Sunday, Ildiko Lendvai, leader of the Hungarian Socialist party, 
>>>> > said the
>>>> > Saturday demonstrators were Nazis. She said Holocaust denial should 
>>>> > not
>>>> > happen in any European country without punishment, MTI reported.
>>>>
>>>> I wonder what pro free political speech McVay aka Mc Long Legged Mac
>>>> Daddy has to say about this.
>>>> What does the term 'democratic duty' mean?
>>>> What does the term 'democratic' mean?
>>>> Who is this lendvai jerk to punish anyone? How the flip did she get
>>>> authority to punish anyone? Oh. The peeps voted for her. The dumb
>>>> programmed masses. baaaaaaaahhhhhh
>>>
>>>It comes from the EU. "We'll give you more money for this and that
>>>project
>>>but in return you'll have to destroy your country's identity and
>>>become a
>>>quasi-soviet state." Same way they lured East Europe to join NATO.
>>>Where
>>>does the EU get its money?
>>
>> Germany.
>>
>> It is the only EU country that actually contributes anything and the
>> rest collect various levels of handouts.
>
>That's what happens when you lose a war.

That's what the pompous bastards in Brussels keep telling German
officials. Despite the fact that German-speaking people are the
largest group within the EU, German is not apparently "officially" an
official language, but a previous German chancellor told the gnomes in
Brussels that if the document were important, and if they wanted
German officials to act on it, then it had better be in German. That
got the message across, and subsequent EU epistles were in German.

>
>
>
>>
>> 


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:39:05 EDT 2009
Article: 2012385 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: norway to sue jews for war crimes
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Fri, 24 Apr 2009 04:00:03 -0700 (PDT), nappissat@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

>IT WILL TAKE FOR ISRAEL FEW DAY TO FINISH SUPER-ARIAN NAZI NORWAY WHO
>COLLABORATE WITH GERMANS IN WW2  THE NORWEGIANS WHORE HAD 35000
>ILLEGAL CHILDREN FROM FASCIST DURING WW2 THIS SAYS A LOOOOOOOOOOOOOT
>ABOUT NORWAY! TIME TAKE REVENGE!

ROTFLMAO

Take your psychiatric medication guy. It is pretty clear that you have
missed a few doses.

>
>
>On 24 Apr, 09:43, "Heinrich"  wrote:
>> The lawyers, who plan to file their complaint with Norway's chief prosecutor
>> on Wednesday, said they will call for the arrest and extradition of Olmert
>> as well as former foreign affairs minister Tzipi Livni, Defence Minister
>> Ehud Barak and seven senior Israeli army officers.
>>
>> Under the Norwegian penal code, courts may hear cases involving war crimes
>> and other major violations of human rights.
>>
>> The lawyers released a statement accusing Israel of "massive terrorist
>> attacks" in the Gaza Strip from December 27 last year to January 25, killing
>> civilians, illegally using weapons against civilian targets and deliberately
>> attacking hospitals and medical staff.
>>
>> "There can be no doubt that these subjects knew about, ordered or approved
>> the actions in Gaza and that they had considered the consequences of these
>> actions," the lawyers' statement said.
>>
>> http://uk.news.yahoo.com/18/20090421/twl-norwegian-lawyers-to-accuse-...


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:39:05 EDT 2009
Article: 2012386 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: jew barak: idf among world's most moral armies
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On Fri, 24 Apr 2009 08:02:31 -0700 (PDT), Rere 
wrote:

>On 24 huhti, 15:19, "Heinrich"  wrote:
>>  schreef in berichtnews:ef2e8b2d-56f4-495a-aca4-9e903ccb5c6c@s20g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...> THIS IS TRUE WHATS WRONG WITH IT?
>>
>>  YOU HAVE BEEN INDOCTRINATED BY THE PRESS YOU SHOULD WATCH MNORE BBC
>
>Who cares about those Gaza dwellers who are ecological burden in the
>already overpopulated world? They are breeding like cockroaches and
>all of them would starve if the rest of the world refused to feed
>them.

The same thing could be said of Israelis, so what is your point
besides exposing yourself as an ignorant bigot and clueless jackass?



From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:39:05 EDT 2009
Article: 2012432 of alt.revisionism
Path: border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-in-01.newsfeed.easynews.com!easynews!core-easynews-01!easynews.com!en-nntp-01.dc1.easynews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Why Gun Confiscation In America Is A Bad Idea
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
Message-ID: 
References:      <4ll0v4dm8dsqi8alroam10t3f0t4s10hqf@4ax.com> <7k12v4hvv0a07p66r611kc36lcl956tl97@4ax.com> <7c-dnQIoRdDm42zUnZ2dnVY3go6dnZ2d@giganews.com>  
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On Sun, 26 Apr 2009 09:00:16 +1000, "B.H. Cramer"
 wrote:

>
>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message 
>news:gio6v4p3ouf4hooblknc5s55uda1o3dikj@4ax.com...
>> On Fri, 24 Apr 2009 18:55:16 +1000, "B.H. Cramer"
>>  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Gord McFee"  wrote in message
>>>news:7k12v4hvv0a07p66r611kc36lcl956tl97@4ax.com...
>>>> On Thu, 23 Apr 2009 07:55:27 -0400, in
>>>> <4ll0v4dm8dsqi8alroam10t3f0t4s10hqf@4ax.com>, Johannes von Ebersdorf
>>>>  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, 23 Apr 2009 19:11:09 +1000, "B.H. Cramer"
>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> >"Klaus Schadenfreude"  wrote in message
>>>>> >news:fettu4d2sn73uf7436q1aqpsj53rj70157@4ax.com...
>>>>> >> In talk.politics.guns "B.H. Cramer" 
>>>>> >> wrote:
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>>"Klaus Schadenfreude"  wrote in 
>>>>> >>>message
>>>>> >>>news:ohstu4lg2uf0jncj1mc5j99dq4odaoumho@4ax.com...
>>>>> >>>> In talk.politics.guns "B.H. Cramer" 
>>>>> >>>> wrote:
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>>>"Klaus Schadenfreude"  wrote in
>>>>> >>>>>message
>>>>> >>>>>news:smvsu41m61tshng7d8qrltpjod8n1s0nui@4ax.com...
>>>>> >>>>>> In talk.politics.guns Topaz  wrote:
>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>On Mon, 20 Apr 2009 18:18:49 -0700, Klaus Schadenfreude
>>>>> >>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>>In talk.politics.guns Topaz  wrote:
>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>On Sun, 19 Apr 2009 13:18:25 -0700, Klaus Schadenfreude
>>>>> >>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>How do you explain Germany getting whipped by sub-humans?
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>Compare the size of Germany to the size of the Jewish
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>controlled
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>countries, the USA and the USSR.
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Now, why would such a SMART bunch of guys take on that many
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Jews?
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Why,
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>you'd have to be fucking crazy, wouldn't you?
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>>No answer?
>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>Not so well known is the story of Roosevelt's enormous
>>>>> >>>>>>>responsibility
>>>>> >>>>>>>for the outbreak of the Second World War itself. This essay
>>>>> >>>>>>>focuses on
>>>>> >>>>>>>Roosevelt's secret campaign to provoke war in Europe prior to 
>>>>> >>>>>>>the
>>>>> >>>>>>>outbreak of hostilities in September 1939.
>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>> When Germany attacked Poland. You have to wonder why they did
>>>>> >>>>>> something so stupid. Got any answers?
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>Why was Poland sabre rattling and engaging in cross-border attacks
>>>>> >>>>>against
>>>>> >>>>>Germany, shadesofraud?
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>> They weren't, nazi-boy.
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>You lie, shadesoffraud.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Following a German-staged "Polish attack" on 31 August 1939, on
>>>>> >> September 1, German forces invaded Poland from the north, south, and
>>>>> >> west.
>>>>>
>>>>> >Go back a few months, shadesoffraud.
>>>>>
>>>>> The jerk is playing with the facts and injecting allied propaganda as
>>>>> history. Poland ordered general mobilization on August 25, and that
>>>>> counts as a declaration of war against Germany. That is all the
>>>>> justification required for an invasion.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for admitting that Germany invaded Poland.  Poland ordered a
>>>> partial mobilization on August 25 because there were 3 million German
>>>> troops massed on their border.
>>>
>>>A challenge for you old feller. Let's see if you're honest.
>>>
>>>Do you, or do you not accept that Poland had been sabre rattling toward
>>>Germany and involving themselves in cross-border skirmishes into Germany,
>>>and also engaging in brutalities against ethnic Germans in Poland?
>>>
>>>Oh, by the bye - I snipped the off topic nonsense you tried to include to
>>>deflect attention away from the inconvenient facts.
>>
>> This guy's German figures are preposterous, like the rest of the
>> holocaustT fables. It would not require 3 million soldiers to invade
>> Poland, and in fact the German armed services didn't even HAVE three
>> million soldiers to place on the Polish frontier or anywhere else for
>> that matter.
>>
>> The invasion was a response to the threat posed by the mobilization.
>> The preparations on the German side were all done between the Polish
>> mobilization and September 1.
>
>I'm quite sure Oy Vey McFey or Oy Vey McFee will be able to conveniently 
>"discover" some documentation to prove you are incorrect, a liar, a nazi, a 
>white-supremacist, a jew hater, a bigot or any other type of nastiness they 
>need.

If need be, mcfee/mcvay will manufacture the "documentation".

>
>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> 


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:39:06 EDT 2009
Article: 2012434 of alt.revisionism
Path: border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-in-01.newsfeed.easynews.com!easynews!core-easynews-01!easynews.com!en-nntp-05.dc1.easynews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Why Gun Confiscation In America Is A Bad Idea
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
Message-ID: 
References:      <4ll0v4dm8dsqi8alroam10t3f0t4s10hqf@4ax.com> <7k12v4hvv0a07p66r611kc36lcl956tl97@4ax.com> <7c-dnQIoRdDm42zUnZ2dnVY3go6dnZ2d@giganews.com>  <3b-dnavYJ9hZBW7UnZ2dnVY3go-dnZ2d@giganews.com>
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On Sun, 26 Apr 2009 09:11:50 +1000, "B.H. Cramer"
 wrote:

>
>"Gord McFee"  wrote in message 
>news:psr6v4l527n3i72v0co52s66mmjcle4akp@4ax.com...
>> On Fri, 24 Apr 2009 18:55:16 +1000, in
>> <7c-dnQIoRdDm42zUnZ2dnVY3go6dnZ2d@giganews.com>, "B.H. Cramer"
>>  wrote:
>>
>>> "Gord McFee"  wrote in message
>>> news:7k12v4hvv0a07p66r611kc36lcl956tl97@4ax.com...
>>> > On Thu, 23 Apr 2009 07:55:27 -0400, in
>>> > <4ll0v4dm8dsqi8alroam10t3f0t4s10hqf@4ax.com>, Johannes von Ebersdorf
>>> >  wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> On Thu, 23 Apr 2009 19:11:09 +1000, "B.H. Cramer"
>>> >>  wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> >"Klaus Schadenfreude"  wrote in message
>>> >> >news:fettu4d2sn73uf7436q1aqpsj53rj70157@4ax.com...
>>> >> >> In talk.politics.guns "B.H. Cramer" 
>>> >> >> wrote:
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >>>"Klaus Schadenfreude"  wrote in 
>>> >> >>>message
>>> >> >>>news:ohstu4lg2uf0jncj1mc5j99dq4odaoumho@4ax.com...
>>> >> >>>> In talk.politics.guns "B.H. Cramer" 
>>> >> >>>> wrote:
>>> >> >>>>
>>> >> >>>>>"Klaus Schadenfreude"  wrote in
>>> >> >>>>>message
>>> >> >>>>>news:smvsu41m61tshng7d8qrltpjod8n1s0nui@4ax.com...
>>> >> >>>>>> In talk.politics.guns Topaz  wrote:
>>> >> >>>>>>
>>> >> >>>>>>>On Mon, 20 Apr 2009 18:18:49 -0700, Klaus Schadenfreude
>>> >> >>>>>>> wrote:
>>> >> >>>>>>>
>>> >> >>>>>>>>In talk.politics.guns Topaz  wrote:
>>> >> >>>>>>>>
>>> >> >>>>>>>>>On Sun, 19 Apr 2009 13:18:25 -0700, Klaus Schadenfreude
>>> >> >>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>How do you explain Germany getting whipped by sub-humans?
>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>
>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>Compare the size of Germany to the size of the Jewish
>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>controlled
>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>countries, the USA and the USSR.
>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>
>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>Now, why would such a SMART bunch of guys take on that many
>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>Jews?
>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>Why,
>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>you'd have to be fucking crazy, wouldn't you?
>>> >> >>>>>>>>>
>>> >> >>>>>>>>
>>> >> >>>>>>>>No answer?
>>> >> >>>>>>
>>> >> >>>>>>>Not so well known is the story of Roosevelt's enormous
>>> >> >>>>>>>responsibility
>>> >> >>>>>>>for the outbreak of the Second World War itself. This essay
>>> >> >>>>>>>focuses on
>>> >> >>>>>>>Roosevelt's secret campaign to provoke war in Europe prior to 
>>> >> >>>>>>>the
>>> >> >>>>>>>outbreak of hostilities in September 1939.
>>> >> >>>>>>
>>> >> >>>>>> When Germany attacked Poland. You have to wonder why they did
>>> >> >>>>>> something so stupid. Got any answers?
>>> >> >>>>>
>>> >> >>>>>Why was Poland sabre rattling and engaging in cross-border 
>>> >> >>>>>attacks
>>> >> >>>>>against
>>> >> >>>>>Germany, shadesofraud?
>>> >> >>>>
>>> >> >>>> They weren't, nazi-boy.
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>>You lie, shadesoffraud.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> Following a German-staged "Polish attack" on 31 August 1939, on
>>> >> >> September 1, German forces invaded Poland from the north, south, 
>>> >> >> and
>>> >> >> west.
>>> >>
>>> >> >Go back a few months, shadesoffraud.
>>> >>
>>> >> The jerk is playing with the facts and injecting allied propaganda as
>>> >> history. Poland ordered general mobilization on August 25, and that
>>> >> counts as a declaration of war against Germany. That is all the
>>> >> justification required for an invasion.
>>> >
>>> > Thanks for admitting that Germany invaded Poland.  Poland ordered a
>>> > partial mobilization on August 25 because there were 3 million German
>>> > troops massed on their border.
>>>
>>> A challenge for you old feller. Let's see if you're honest.
>>>
>>> Do you, or do you not accept that Poland had been sabre rattling toward
>>> Germany and involving themselves in cross-border skirmishes into Germany,
>>> and also engaging in brutalities against ethnic Germans in Poland?
>>
>> No, I do not.  Where is your proof?
>
>Oh, ferfuckssake. I thought you had "researched" the politics of this period 
>of history?
>
>Don't you remember the Poles had made themselves ready to attack Germany 
>well before September 1st  '39?
>Don't you remember the brutality meted out to ethnic Germans in Poland
>
>Christ gourd. I never had you down as a liar.
>>
>>> Oh, by the bye - I snipped the off topic nonsense you tried to include to
>>> deflect attention away from the inconvenient facts.
>>
>> You must mean this: "By the way, Canada also ordered a
>> partial mobilization on August 25.  Why did Germany not invade
>> Canada?"  That's typical.  Snip what you can't deal with.

It would be hard for Canada to order partial mobilization, since
Canada did not have conscription at that point. Canada had an
all-volunteer army then and again now.

>
>It's still off topic, silly old man.
>
>This is typical of you people. When things become a wee bit uncomfortable 
>you bring in the childish "But what about him/her/them" nonsense. Twatty was 
>a master at it. Keenan is at it all the time too.
>
>Behave yourself. 


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:39:06 EDT 2009
Article: 2012440 of alt.revisionism
Path: border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-in-01.newsfeed.easynews.com!easynews!core-easynews-01!easynews.com!en-nntp-03.dc1.easynews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Why Gun Confiscation In America Is A Bad Idea
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
Message-ID: <86d9v4thpbol578k5agrkjtrbknrpjc3jj@4ax.com>
References: <20qsu4ps4f0sadcdnc013n4ntj9u4emedr@4ax.com>  <7VuHl.24732$PH1.19905@edtnps82>   <82883139-83fe-4ffe-bb95-78ca8fcf94c2@j9g2000prh.googlegroups.com>  <7cp6v4dani6q70magr2ssvpd30slbr9m3b@4ax.com>  
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On Sun, 26 Apr 2009 09:02:43 +1000, "B.H. Cramer"
 wrote:

>
>"Gord McFee"  wrote in message 
>news:srs6v4hgu8gbsf7miqg3i0cg195c3ocgsp@4ax.com...
>> On Sat, 25 Apr 2009 15:37:10 -0400, in
>> <7cp6v4dani6q70magr2ssvpd30slbr9m3b@4ax.com>, Johannes von Ebersdorf
>>  wrote:
>>
>>> On Sat, 25 Apr 2009 09:09:52 +1000, "B.H. Cramer"
>>>  wrote:
>>>
>>> >
>>> >"Michael Ejercito"  wrote in message
>>> >news:82883139-83fe-4ffe-bb95-78ca8fcf94c2@j9g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
>>> >On Apr 23, 3:31 pm, Topaz  wrote:
>>> >> Here are some quotes from "With Hitler on the Road to Power" by Dr.
>>> >> Otto Dietrich
>>> >
>>> >>   Hitler's road to power was a road to ruin.
>>> >
>>> >Thanks to the yids.
>>> >
>>> Doing nothing was already the road to ruin, so Hitler didn't make it
>>> any worse. Without WW2, Germany would still be paying ruinous
>>> "reparations" for WW1. Today, it is a prosperous state on about 75% of
>>> the territory of the Empire. The old German saying "Besser ein Ende
>>> mit Schrecken, als ein Schrecken ohne Ende" still applies. (Better an
>>> ending with horrors than a horror without end)
>>
>> So you are happy that Hitler caused the slaughter of 7,233,000 Germans
>> because now Germany is prosperous.
>
>He does not say that at all, gourd. Keep a lid on it, old feller. Your 
>hatred is begining to overtake your limited reality.
>
>>You are one sick fuck.
>
>Really? From where I sit it appears it's you who is putting words into 
>another's mouth.
>
>That's pretty sick.

That has always been gourd's approach to "discussion".

>
>
>
>>
>> -- 
>> Gord McFee
>> I'll write no line before its time
>>
>> Visit the Holocaust History Project
>> http://www.holocaust-history.org
>> 


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:39:06 EDT 2009
Article: 2012442 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Why Gun Confiscation In America Is A Bad Idea
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
Message-ID: <7ad9v4da0sgj1e4bqqnb27s0vkl3vb5mfl@4ax.com>
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On Sat, 25 Apr 2009 19:53:02 +0000 (UTC), Alan-from-Elimbah
 wrote:

>In article <00q6v45en47k2c8ac8hga5e441hkn5qf60@4ax.com>,
>Johannes von Ebersdorf   wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 23 Apr 2009 20:45:21 +0000 (UTC), Alan-from-Elimbah
>>  wrote:
>
>>> If you want to understand why "B.H. Cramer" posts as he does,
>>> have a look at these verbatim quotes from his missives to this
>>> newsgroup:
>>>
>>>    "I'm not here to rebut anything or anyone, cuntface. I'm here
>>> to antagonise and keep you occupied." -- Posted by "Ben Cramer",
>>> Message-ID:  .
>>>
>>>    "Had Hitler won the war, the world would be a much better
>>> place."  --Posted by "Ben Cramer",  Source:  Message-ID
>>> .
>>>
>>>    "You seem to think I am a backer of these Islamic monkeys. You
>>> couldn't be further from the truth." --  Posted by "Ben Cramer",
>>> Message-ID:
>>>
>>>    "Poofters should be fucked and burned." --  Posted by "Ben Cramer",
>>> Message-ID:
>>> <42942e83$0$247$61c65585@uq-127creek-reader-03.brisbane.pipenetworks.com.au>
>>>
>>>    "Women like you and the cohen cunt should be treated like
>>> gongs. Given a bloody good whack from time to time, to keep
>>> you in tune." -- Posted by "Ben Cramer",  Message-ID:
>>> <2JednRLNN48kYADYnZ2dnUVZ_oernZ2d@giganews.com>.
>>>
>>>    "Yids are lice laddie" --  Posted by "Ben Cramer",  Message-ID
>>> .
>>>
>>> And this person is loved and admired by each and every
>>> "revisionist" posting here.  That says more about this
>>> "movement" than an entire encyclopedia could.
>
>> It would appear that "Alan" is another socket puppet of mcvay.
>
>LOL!
>
>> The same sleazy misquotation style gives it away.
>
>"misquotation"?  What "misquotation"?  Please be specific.

It looks like the half-baked nonsense lists found on Nizkor, the
well-known hate-site.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:39:07 EDT 2009
Article: 2012452 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hebes have had David Duke Arrested - Goodbye free speech everywhere
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Sun, 26 Apr 2009 12:37:42 +1000, "B.H. Cramer"
 wrote:

>
>"Gord McFee"  wrote in message 
>news:2377v45mmj8uemn1qj87nsgin0q0emtl2s@4ax.com...
>> On Sat, 25 Apr 2009 08:43:02 +1000, in
>> , "B.H. Cramer"
>>  wrote:
>>
>>> Czech Poice arrest David Duke for suspicion of thought crimes
>>> http://www.ceskenoviny.cz/news/zpravy/czech-police-arrest-former-ku-klux-klan-leader-duke/373167
>>>
>>> Prague - The Czech police arrested David Duke, former leader of the Ku 
>>> Klux
>>> Klan racist movement, in Prague today on suspicion of promotion of 
>>> movements
>>> seeking suppression of human rights, Prague police spokesman told CTK.
>>
>> Great.  To the slammer with him.
>
>For what?

Heresy against the holocaust™ cult would be the charge, much along the
patterns in the Middle Ages. The Czechs were good at burning people at
the stake then too.

>
>
>
>>
>> -- 
>> Gord McFee
>> I'll write no line before its time
>>
>> Visit the Holocaust History Project
>> http://www.holocaust-history.org
>> 


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:39:07 EDT 2009
Article: 2012456 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: jews doubt demjanjuk's illness
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
Message-ID: <37e9v4dfpojq4tthinp0fqk3qghk7hrcg2@4ax.com>
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On Sun, 26 Apr 2009 09:34:37 +1000, "B.H. Cramer"
 wrote:

>
>"Kenneth McVay OBC"  wrote in message 
>news:Yt6dnbAqpaUd_m7UnZ2dnUVZ_vSdnZ2d@vex.net...
>> In article ,
>> Truthseeker  wrote:
>>>Kenneth if Demjanjuk is gone who will be your next Guinea pig.
>>
>> Mr. Demjanjuk is a rodent?
>
>More rampant hatred being sprayed by mcFey. 

Hate-mongering is mcvay's business, much like murder is a hit-man's
business.


>Sprayed because he has a 
>contractual obligation to do so.
>
>You're a sick puppy, mcFey. You have very, very bad Karma.
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:39:08 EDT 2009
Article: 2012467 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: david duke is free
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Sun, 26 Apr 2009 07:01:24 +0200, "Heinrich"
 wrote:

>Yes, I am now free, at least temporarily
>
>The outrage by so many Czech citizens and even many in the media after my 
>arrest led the government to release me from my cell in the wee hours of the 
>morning, After about 3 hours sleep I now write these words to you.
>
>The charges, of course, from the beginning are specious. I was invited to 
>the Czech Rep. originally to speak at one of the oldest and most famous 
>universities in Europe, Charles University in Prague.

Actually, the university was founded by Germans, not Czechs.



> It is also famous for 
>being founded by heroic Czechs like Jan Hus

The university existed for centuries before Hus arrived on the scene.




> who stood up and told the truth 
>and believed that truth and its pursuit is the most important thing a man 
>can do in his life, even if costs him his life and freedom. This is the man 
>who is the national hero of the Czech people.
>
>As those who read my material know, I do not seek the suppression of any 
>people, race or religion, but simply believe that Europeans have the human 
>right to preserve our homelands and that our governments should be in the 
>service of our own people and not the International Zionist Global matrix of 
>financial and political power. I am not a man who denies that atrocities 
>took place against Jews in the Second World War, but I argue forcefully that 
>freedom of speech on this or any other is issue is a basic human right of 
>all people.
>
>My lectures in the Czech republic were not on the subject of the Holocaust 
>at all, in fact why all the constant attention on this subject by the media, 
>when one considers the fact that Bolshevism killed, tortured and harmed tens 
>of millions of more people. I never speak about the Holocaust in Europe 
>other than to say that it is a human rights outrage that people are 
>imprisoned for simply having a differing opinion about an historical event.
>
>I was going to lecture about the Israeli influence over American and 
>European foreign policy and the International Zionist Banking firms that are 
>leading America and the world to financial oblivion, globalist hegemony and 
>unending war.
>
>Now they seek a terrible, catastrophic war with Iran.
>
>That is why extremist Jewish organizations worked to keep my message and 
>ideas from the Czech people and the world.
>
>I am doing tremendous numbers of interviews because of this false 
>imprisonment, so we are reaching literally millions of people here in the 
>Czech Rep. and around the world that I would not have reached otherwise.
>
>I was lucky to have excellent legal representation, but although I am free 
>we must be prepared for any legal challenge against my freedom and the right 
>of Europeans to hear the legitimate ideas that I offer. I certainly am not 
>guilty of any violation of Czech law either in its letter or spirit.
>
>To that end, we need to raise considerable funds for legal defense and hope 
>that all supporters will take a moment to contribute to that necessity as 
>well as the vital work I endeavor to continue for our people.
>
>Please go to www.davidduke.com and give me the support I need to stay free 
>and to continue to support your cause and mine.
>
>I am very thankful of the response so far and am anxious to hear from all of 
>you.
>
>Best to all.
>
>David Duke


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:39:08 EDT 2009
Article: 2012556 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jesus tried to warn us about the Jews -"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lust of your father ye will do."
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Sun, 26 Apr 2009 20:27:26 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
 wrote:

>
>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message 
>news:oe59v4hab5cq1b52pujp7n9gca4vdk8u30@4ax.com...
>> On Thu, 23 Apr 2009 21:33:33 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
>>  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message
>>>news:asc1v4t6a8m19vok2g1plh70m1emrbgn1m@4ax.com...
>>>[snip]
>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The ONLY references to Jesus ANYWHERE are in the New Testament. There
>>>>>> is no independent verification that such a person ever actually
>>>>>> existed. The existence of Jesus is something taken on faith.
>>>>>
>>>>>WRONG! You have ignored the evidence alredy given to you in this very
>>>>>discussion!
>>>>
>>>> Well, I suggest that you write a LONG letter to the various seminaries
>>>> around the world and show them the error of their ways. There is zero
>>>> independent evidence of Christ's existence, let alone his deity.
>>>
>>>Really? which seminaries suggest thet the ONLY evidence for the 
>>>historicity
>>>of Jesus is exclusively Biblical as you claim ?
>>
>> Any Lutheran seminary in Germany, Canada, Sweden  Finland, or Denmark
>> will point out that there is no "proof" of Christ's existence. It is
>> all a matter of faith.
>
>You began by stating there is NO REFERENCE outside the New Testament of the 
>Bible and all belie of jesus is taken on faith.
>You then asserted that any seminary will tell people this.
>When asked whaich ones you supply as a sample the seminaries of a Biblican 
>Fundamentalist section of Protestantism which is in itself a vastly minor 
>part of christianity!

You are a fucking moron! The Lutheran Church is by far the largest
Protestant denomination (much bigger than Anglicanism), it is
definitely NOT fundamentalist, and it is also the oldest Protestant
denomination.

>By vastly minor Roman Catholics are over about 1 billion orthodox about 500 
>million and anglicans ( Of which the largest is the church of england which 
>in itself is probably "catholic" with the exception of having the Monarch at 
>the head instead of the Pope about 100 million. Thats about 1.5 BILLION who 
>are notsubscribing to your "no evidence outside the Bible" claim!

This isn't about numbers of adherents but about whether you can come
up with INDEPENDENT (non religious) verification of Christ's
existence.

>The "faith alone" argument of Biblican fundamentalists centuries old and a 
>MINORITY ie VAST MINORITY i.e a few percent position!

This isn't about the Bible or its interpretation. Can you find a
contemporary reference to Jesus Christ that is NOT in the Bible or any
other religious writing?

>
>>
>>>
>>>By the way if you had bothered to read the references below with which you
>>>were furnished you would already know they include ROMAN CATHOLIC  CLERGY
>>>who are accepted by the roman church. they also onclude christian Orthodox
>>>and Anglicans and Christian heretics and Jews and atheistists and people 
>>>of
>>>no religion all of whom are renowned scholars and accept there is sound
>>>evidence that Jesus did in fact exist. they also range from the time of
>>>Jesus to present day.

They don't count because they are religious people and they were not
Christ's contemporaries. The views they hold are just opinions. Where
are the Roman court transcripts of Christ's trial, for example? That
would count as proof, not the babblings of some priest or another who
lived centuries later and who made his living from this religion.

>>
>> I repeat, there is no record of Christ's existence anywhere except the
>> New Testament. If you find some, you will become world famous
>> overnight.
>
>You have alreadyt been furnished with them which of them do you think is 
>wrong?

None of them count as "independent" of this religion, so there is a
vested interest and none of them were contemporaries of Christ.

>
>What about Thallus?

What about him? This sounds like hindsight interpretation of writings.
What would it have meant to the people who heard or read it first?

>
>>
>> We're not talking here about the opinions of people who lived after
>> Christ's time, but of contemporary people or institutions that made a
>> mention of him in their writings.
>
>
>NO WE ARENT! You stated above "no record of Christ's existence anywhere 
>except the
> New Testament." You are now CHANGING you claim and adding "FROM THE TIME 
>JESUS CHRIST  WAS SUPPOSED TO HAVE LIVED"
>
>That is a DIFFERENT claim!
>
>But again you seem totally ignorant of history! You were furnished with 
>references. BGut let me ask you
>Wher are the references from the time of alexander the Great? Or from 
>Socrates or Plato?
>>
>> No Roman official, including Pontius Pilate, made any mention of him
>> or his trial.
>>
>> No contemporary writers made any mention of him.
>
>thallus did!
>
>
>You are adding "contemoprary" now! but you were given references!
>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>And don't try to CHANGE the subject from historicity of Jesus to alleged
>>>Divinity of Jesus with your "let alone" comments!
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>and i told you all this before and you seemed to have ignored it!
>>>>>remember?
>>>>>
>>>>>Message-ID: 
>>>>>With few exceptions (such as Robert M. Price), virtually all scholars in
>>>>>the
>>>>>fields of biblical studies and history agree that Jesus was a Jewish
>>>>>teacher
>>>>>from Galilee who was regarded as a healer, was baptized by John the
>>>>>Baptist,
>>>>>was accused of sedition against the Roman Empire, and on the orders of
>>>>>Roman
>>>>>Governor Pontius Pilate was sentenced to death by crucifixion.
>>>>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus
>>>>> Raymond E. Brown, The Death of the Messiah: From Gethsemane to the 
>>>>> Grave
>>>>>(New York: Doubleday, Anchor Bible Reference Library 1994), p. 964; D. 
>>>>>A.
>>>>>Carson, et al., p. 50-56; Shaye J.D. Cohen, From the Maccabees to the
>>>>>Mishnah, Westminster Press, 1987, p. 78, 93, 105, 108; John Dominic
>>>>>Crossan,
>>>>>The Historical Jesus: The Life of a Mediterranean Jewish Peasant,
>>>>>HarperCollins, 1991, p. xi-xiii; Michael Grant, p. 34-35, 78, 166, 200;
>>>>>Paula Fredriksen, Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews, Alfred A. Knopf,
>>>>>1999, p. 6-7, 105-110, 232-234, 266; John P. Meier, vol. 1:68, 146, 199,
>>>>>278, 386, 2:726; E.P. Sanders, pp. 12-13; Geza Vermes, Jesus the Jew
>>>>>(Philadelphia: Fortress Press 1973), p. 37.; Paul L. Maier, In the
>>>>>Fullness
>>>>>of Time, Kregel, 1991, pp. 1, 99, 121, 171; N. T. Wright, The Meaning of
>>>>>Jesus: Two Visions, HarperCollins, 1998, pp. 32, 83, 100-102, 222; Ben
>>>>>Witherington III, pp. 12-20.
>>>>>
>>>>>>Jesus wrote nothing,
>>>>>He is recorded as having writing twice in the sand before he said "let 
>>>>>him
>>>>>without sin cast the first stone".
>>>>>
>>>>>>built nothing,
>>>>>It would be unlikley if he was the son of a carpenter that he built
>>>>>nothing.
>>>>>
>>>>>>founded nothing,
>>>>>
>>>>>Eh. He is also recorded as saying "On this rock I found my Church" to
>>>>>Peter.
>>>>>
>>>>>>and
>>>>>> simply was not noticed by anybody other than the people who wrote the
>>>>>> scriptures.
>>>>>
>>>>>Your point being? Was "Ozymandias King of Kings" noticed? Look up 
>>>>>"Sailing
>>>>>to Byzanthium".
>>>>>
>>>>>By the way it is also WRONG! Many people followed him who didn't write 
>>>>>at
>>>>>all. Just as many people followed others in that time also. ever heard 
>>>>>of
>>>>>simon Magnus , simon the magician? Or Barabbas?
>>>>>
>>>>>[end excerpt]>
>>>>>> Are all Roman Catholics as stupid as Mavis?
>>>>>
>>>>>Are all holocaust deniers as dishonest as you? you were shown all this 
>>>>>on
>>>>>april 2:Outside the accepted canon of Holy Scriptures from heretical or
>>>>>non
>>>>>cononical writings:
>>>>>
>>>>>The authors whose works are contained in the New Testament sometimes 
>>>>>quote
>>>>>from creeds, or confessions of faith, that obviously predate their
>>>>>writings.
>>>>>Scholars suppose that some of these creeds date to within a few years of
>>>>>Jesus' death, and were developed within the Christian community in
>>>>>Jerusalem.
>>>>> basic text is that of Oscar Cullmann, available in English in a
>>>>> translation
>>>>>by J. K. S. Reid titled, The Earliest Christian Confessions (London:
>>>>>Lutterworth, 1949)
>>>>>Jesus is a large factor in New Testament apocrypha, works excluded from
>>>>>the
>>>>>canon (Gnostic texts) as it developed because they were judged not to be
>>>>>inspired.
>>>>>
>>>>>Early Christian sources outside the New Testament also mention Jesus and
>>>>>details of his life. Important texts from the Apostolic Fathers are, to
>>>>>name
>>>>>just the most significant and ancient, Clement of Rome (c. 100),[33]
>>>>>Ignatius of Antioch (c. 107-110),[34] and Justin Martyr.[35]
>>>>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_to_the_Trallians
>>>>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_to_the_Smyrneans
>>>>>
>>>>>Papias of Hierapolis
>>>>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papias
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Quadratus of Athens
>>>>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quadratus_of_Athens
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Greco-Roman sources
>>>>>Passages relevant to Christianity in the works of four major 
>>>>>non-Christian
>>>>>writers of the late 1st and early 2nd centuries - Josephus, Tacitus,
>>>>>Suetonius, and Pliny the Younger.
>>>>>Josephus' writings, which document John the Baptist, James the Just, and
>>>>>possibly also Jesus, are of the most interest to scholars dealing with 
>>>>>the
>>>>>historicity of Jesus
>>>>>Josephus calls James "the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ."
>>>>>http://www.ccel.org/ccel/josephus/works/files/ant-20.htm
>>>>>Tacitus, in his Annals written c. 115, mentions popular opinion about
>>>>>Christus, without historical details
>>>>>According to Suetonius, chapter 25, there occurred in Rome, during the
>>>>>reign
>>>>>of emperor Claudius (circa AD 50), "persistent disturbances ... at the
>>>>>instigation of Chrestus"
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Thallus, of whom very little is known, wrote a history from the Trojan 
>>>>>War
>>>>>to, according to Eusebius, 109 BC. No work of Thallus survives. There is
>>>>>one
>>>>>reference to Thallus having written about events beyond 109 BC. Julius
>>>>>Africanus, writing c. 221, while writing about the crucifixion of Jesus,
>>>>>mentioned Thallus. Thus:
>>>>>On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks
>>>>>were
>>>>>rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were
>>>>>thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in his third book of History, calls
>>>>>(as
>>>>>appears to me without reason) an eclipse of the sun.
>>>>>Julius Africanus, Extant Writings XVIII in Ante-Nicene Fathers, ed. A.
>>>>>Roberts and J. Donaldson (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1973) vol. VI, p. 130
>>>>>Lucian, a second century Romano-Syrian satirist, who wrote in Greek,
>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day - the distinguished
>>>>>personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that
>>>>>account. You see, these misguided creatures start with the general
>>>>>conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains the
>>>>>contempt
>>>>>of death and voluntary self-devotion which are so common among them; and
>>>>>then it was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are 
>>>>>all
>>>>>brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of
>>>>>Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws
>>>>>Lucian, The Death of Peregrine, 11-13 in The Works of Lucian of 
>>>>>Samosata,
>>>>>translated by H. W. Fowler (Oxford: Clarendon, 1949) vol. 4
>>>>>
>>>>>Celsus wrote, about 180AD, a book against the Christians, which is now
>>>>>only
>>>>>known through Origen's refutation of it. Celsus apparently accused Jesus
>>>>>of
>>>>>being a child and a sorcerer Morton Smith, Jesus the Magician: Charlatan
>>>>>or
>>>>>Son of God? (1978) pp. 78-79.
>>>>>
>>>>>ther are Jewish records too but we ell skip them for now
>>>>>
>>>>>In The Historical Figure of Jesus, E.P. Sanders used Alexander the Great
>>>>>as
>>>>>a paradigm-the available sources tell us much about Alexander's deeds, 
>>>>>but
>>>>>nothing about his thoughts. "The sources for Jesus are better, however,
>>>>>than
>>>>>those that deal with Alexander" and "the superiority of evidence for 
>>>>>Jesus
>>>>>is seen when we ask what he thought."
>>>>>
>>>>>Actually I am reminded of Sanders comparison between jesus and alexander
>>>>>now. But more so the idea of the difference between Modern and Ancient
>>>>>history. Paul Barnett respected classicist and historian - "scholars of
>>>>>ancient history have always recognized the 'subjectivity' factor in 
>>>>>their
>>>>>available sources" and "have so few sources available compared to their
>>>>>modern counterparts that they will gladly seize whatever scraps of
>>>>>information that are at hand." IN "Is the New Testament History?", p.1.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> 
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:39:09 EDT 2009
Article: 2012558 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jesus tried to warn us about the Jews -"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lust of your father ye will do."
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
Message-ID: <6fl9v4h4f6unoel6rnjor5lor70kkig5bd@4ax.com>
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On Sun, 26 Apr 2009 20:31:46 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
 wrote:

>
>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message 
>news:7q59v492mch54c5vgncnmolqfmbcpu2tkf@4ax.com...
>> On Fri, 24 Apr 2009 14:54:16 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
>>  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"B.H. Cramer"  wrote in message
>>>news:Yc6dnVwqf6aL7WzUnZ2dnVY3go-dnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>>
>>>> "Gord McFee"  wrote in message
>>>> news:k632v41bh6h81ulbq1ort0fo1adrg0avdp@4ax.com...
>>>>> On Thu, 23 Apr 2009 14:31:05 -0400, in
>>>>> , Johannes von Ebersdorf
>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Apr 2009 12:53:24 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
>>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> >"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message
>>>>>> >news:240vu4dae18c98gkkc61ba3m8gs5u0f0if@4ax.com...
>>>>>> >> On Tue, 21 Apr 2009 16:46:12 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
>>>>>> >>  wrote:
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>>"Gord McFee"  wrote in message
>>>>>> >>>news:28eBl.115130$9j5.6247@en-nntp-01.dc1.easynews.com...
>>>>>> >>>> On 4/2/2009 4:17 PM, Johannes von Ebersdorf wrote:
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>>> On Wed, 1 Apr 2009 15:22:10 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
>>>>>> >>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>> "Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message
>>>>>> >>>>>> news:1qq4t41c7o2r9n0v9h33uph60bvnh8gmrf@4ax.com...
>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Tue, 31 Mar 2009 09:32:48 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
>>>>>> >>>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>>>> "B.H. Cramer"  wrote in message
>>>>>> >>>>>>>> news:CsmdnZPaZOVxpl7UnZ2dnVY3go2dnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>>>> >>>>>>>> [snip]
>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Jesus was a Jew himself.
>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Are you sure about that?  You can prove that?
>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The historicity of Jesus is an established field of research.
>>>>>> >>>>>>>> But if anyone believes in Jesus Christ existing in the past
>>>>>> >>>>>>>> then it
>>>>>> >>>>>>>> is
>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ludicrous to believe he was NOT a Jew.
>>>>>> >>>>>>>> If one is claiming that Jesus Christ never existed then
>>>>>> >>>>>>>> claiming he
>>>>>> >>>>>>>> was or
>>>>>> >>>>>>>> was not a Jew is pointless since one assigning an attribute 
>>>>>> >>>>>>>> to
>>>>>> >>>>>>>> something
>>>>>> >>>>>>>> which does not exist - a bit like saying the dragon was BLUE.
>>>>>> >>>>>>>> It is
>>>>>> >>>>>>>> pointless to argue about whether they are blue red or yellow 
>>>>>> >>>>>>>> if
>>>>>> >>>>>>>> your
>>>>>> >>>>>>>> main
>>>>>> >>>>>>>> point is that dragons never existed.
>>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>>>> As it happens though the historicity of Jesus is as 
>>>>>> >>>>>>>> established
>>>>>> >>>>>>>> (or
>>>>>> >>>>>>>> probably
>>>>>> >>>>>>>> more established) as say Alexander the Great for example.
>>>>>> >>>>>>> Actually no, since lots of people saw or experienced Alexander
>>>>>> >>>>>>> the
>>>>>> >>>>>>> Great,
>>>>>> >>>>>> Really?
>>>>>> >>>>>> And your evidence is?
>>>>>> >>>>>> Lots of people also saw and experienced Jesus by the way.
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>> Nonsense. Jesus wrote nothing, built nothing, founded nothing, 
>>>>>> >>>>> and
>>>>>> >>>>> simply was not noticed by anybody other than the people who 
>>>>>> >>>>> wrote
>>>>>> >>>>> the
>>>>>> >>>>> scriptures.
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>> Sure got popular though, didn't he?  I guess you denier trash are
>>>>>> >>>> envious.
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>>He is recorded as having written TWICE. that isnt to say he did not
>>>>>> >>>write
>>>>>> >>>more. the occasion was before he said "let him without sin cast the
>>>>>> >>>first
>>>>>> >>>stone". i have already posted references by several people who were
>>>>>> >>>not
>>>>>> >>>Christians and from others who were regarded as hetetics who wrote
>>>>>> >>>about
>>>>>> >>>Jesus. Certainly MORE than anything produced on socrates Plato or
>>>>>> >>>alexander.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> The ONLY references to Jesus ANYWHERE are in the New Testament. 
>>>>>> >> There
>>>>>> >> is no independent verification that such a person ever actually
>>>>>> >> existed. The existence of Jesus is something taken on faith.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >WRONG! You have ignored the evidence alredy given to you in this very
>>>>>> >discussion!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well, I suggest that you write a LONG letter to the various seminaries
>>>>>> around the world and show them the error of their ways. There is zero
>>>>>> independent evidence of Christ's existence, let alone his deity.
>>>>>
>>>>> Since his deity is a question of faith,
>>>>
>>>> As is yours, old feller. And your fellow Holocaustians.
>>>
>>>I never made any claims about deities!
>>>
>>>YOU claimed no evidence for Jesus except the writings in the Bible.
>>>You were WRONG!
>>>
>>>The Historicity of Jesus is an established field of history - unlike
>>>holocaust denial!
>>
>> This sounds like Roman Catholic hocus pocus. No Roman historian or
>> government official of antiquity mentioned Jesus.
>
>Yes they did and you have been shown where. But you are CHANGING the claim 
>now from "no evidence outside of the Bible" which you were shown to "no 
>evidence form a roman official or roman historian" .

What part of INDEPENDENT do you not understand? Proof would need to
come from some writer not connected with the Christian movement, since
that would not count as independent verification.

>
>In fact I challenge you to produce any extant written references to someone 
>who might have been Alexander the great. I am certain you won't find any 
>(even though I am aware of one)
>But I don't see you claiming Alexander the Great didn't exist even though he 
>was an Emperor and Jesus just a carpenters son. Even less evidence for 
>Alexander than Jesus.
>
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:39:09 EDT 2009
Article: 2012561 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hungary plans to penalize Holocaust denial
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Sun, 26 Apr 2009 13:03:02 -0700 (PDT), mirjam@actcom.co.il wrote:

>>
>> That's what the pompous bastards in Brussels keep telling German
>> officials. Despite the fact that German-speaking people are the
>> largest group within the EU, German is not apparently "officially" an
>> official language, but a previous German chancellor told the gnomes in
>> Brussels that if the document were important, and if they wanted
>> German officials to act on it, then it had better be in German. That
>> got the message across, and subsequent EU epistles were in German.
>
>
>When EU was structured it had 5 official languages ,
>French
>German,
>Dutch,
>Italian ,
>English
>
>mirjam

German was never an official language of the EU and unless they have
recently added it, still isn't.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:39:10 EDT 2009
Article: 2012807 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Why Gun Confiscation In America Is A Bad Idea
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Mon, 27 Apr 2009 21:11:57 +1000, "B.H. Cramer"
 wrote:

>
>"Klaus Schadenfreude"  wrote in message 
>news:e3e9v4lpmq6877h659oln9vr1fbeaoour7@4ax.com...
>> In talk.politics.guns Topaz  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>Here is what a leftist wrote:
>>>"Thousands of homosexuals were thrown into the Nazis'  concentration
>>>camps, where most perished.
>>
>> Interesting, considering the homosexual background of the nazi party.
>
>You can prove this, of course?
>
Klaus is an equal-opportunity bigot. Proof is not something he does.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:39:10 EDT 2009
Article: 2012809 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: For eugen holman
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Sun, 26 Apr 2009 22:34:49 GMT, "Truthseeker" 
wrote:

>And just who are you Gord. Have you figured out who you are screwing next.

Poor gourd is such a twit. The German citizenship law has nothing to
do with Nazis and was already in place in the 19th century.

>Kurt Knoll.
>
>"Gord McFee"  wrote in message 
>news:qam9v49kunp0kp60d0pctjg9bslla8s5md@4ax.com...
>> On Sat, 25 Apr 2009 15:58:42 -0400, in
>> , Johannes von Ebersdorf
>>  wrote:
>>
>> [...]
>>
>>> The German people consists of all people born to parents who were
>>> German citizens. That automatically makes you a German citizen,
>>> regardless of where you were born. Being born in Germany entitles you
>>> to nothing. You are German only because your parents were German.
>>> German citizenship is based on blood, not on place of birth.
>>>
>>> That is why it is almost impossible for aliens to obtain German
>>> citizenship, but Volksdeutsche from Rumania get instant German
>>> citizenship despite having been absent for more than 850 years.
>>
>> I can just hear the Horst Wessel Lied in the background.  The Fuehrer
>> would be proud.
>>
>> -- 
>> Gord McFee
>> I'll write no line before its time
>>
>> Visit the Holocaust History Project
>> http://www.holocaust-history.org 
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:39:11 EDT 2009
Article: 2012811 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hungary plans to penalize Holocaust denial
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Sun, 26 Apr 2009 20:30:44 -0700 (PDT), mirjam@actcom.co.il wrote:

>>
>> >When EU was structured it had 5 official languages ,
>> >French
>> >German,
>> >Dutch,
>> >Italian ,
>> >English
>>
>> >mirjam
>>
>> German was never an official language of the EU and unless they have
>> recently added it, still isn't.- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
>????????? (bg)
>?eština (cs)
>dansk (da)
>Deutsch (de)
>eesti keel (et)
>???????? (el)
>English (en)
>español (es)
>français (fr)
>italiano (it)
>latviešu valoda (lv)
>lietuvi? kalba (lt)
>magyar (hu)
>Malti (mt)
>Nederlands (nl)
>polski (pl)
>português (pt)
>român? (ro)
>sloven?ina (sk)
>slovenš?ina (sl)
>suomi (fi)
>svenska (sv)
>
>English (en)European Commission MultilingualismLanguages of
>EuropeOfficial EU languages
> Who we are
>Our Commissioner
>Our mission What we do
>EU Language Policy
>Funding
>Languages of Europe
>History and languages families Official EU languages
>Eurobarometer Survey Regional and minority languages Sign Languages
>Language Teaching
>Language Learning
>European Language Label
>Networks
>
>Languages of Europe
>Official EU languages
>The European Union has 23 official languages. They are: Bulgarian,
>Czech, Danish, Dutch, English, Estonian, Finnish, French, German,
>Greek, Hungarian, Irish, Italian, Latvian, Lithuanian, Maltese,
>Polish, Portuguese, Romanian, Slovak, Slovene, Spanish and Swedish.
>
>The first Community Regulation determining official languages was
>passed in 1958. It specified Dutch, French, German and Italian as the
>first official languages of the EU, these being the languages of the
>Member States at that time. Since then, as more countries have become
>part of the EU, the number of official languages has increased.
>However, there are fewer official languages than Member States, as
>some share common languages. In Belgium, for example, the official
>languages are Dutch, French and German, whilst in Cyprus the majority
>of the population speaks Greek, which has official status.
>
>This is the source of the piece i pasted here for you ,
>http://ec.europa.eu/education/languages/languages-of-europe/doc135_en.htm
>
>I am copying this part again for your knowlledge
>
>The first Community Regulation determining official languages was
>passed in 1958. It specified Dutch, French, German and Italian as the
>first official languages of the EU,
>
>Did you read that THE FIRST COMMUNITY REGULATION DETERMINING OFFICIAL
>LANUAGES was passed in 1958 ,,,,,,,,,it specified DUTCH FRENCH GERMAN
>And ITALIAN .........
>mirjam

Well, for some reason, documents sent to Germany were not in German
and the local authorities complained. After the complaint, documents
were sent in German. The German texts I read said that EU documents
were not normally available in German, so I'm not sure what "official
language" means in that context.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:39:11 EDT 2009
Article: 2012815 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Torture by U.S.A. during World War 2
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On Mon, 27 Apr 2009 04:52:07 GMT, "Truthseeker" 
wrote:

>Just in case you do not know the French did use German prisoners of war as 
>slave labour.

The idiots are doubtlessly aware but they cannot admit to it since it
would conflict with their Germany-is-always-responsible model for WW1
and WW2.

>Kurt Knoll.
>
>"I'll Always Be 27/04/09"  wrote in message 
>news:aussies_suck-F25532.21483826042009@aries.weretis.net...
>> In article
>> ,
>> "Don Phillipson"
>>  wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Do you know of any incidents of torture
>> by the U.S.A. during World War2 against
>> members of the Axis?
>>
>> 
>>
>>> 4.  By contrast, French army intelligence is known to have
>>> tortured Algerian prisoners approx. 1955-65, cf. Henri Alleg's
>>> book "La Question" etc.  There seems adequate documentation
>>> about purposes and methods.   Some of this suggests that
>>> French torturers learned from German examples during WW2.
>>> None appears to suggest French torturers learned from US or
>>> British examples during WW2. 
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:39:11 EDT 2009
Article: 2013234 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jesus tried to warn us about the Jews -"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lust of your father ye will do."
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Tue, 28 Apr 2009 02:38:57 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
 wrote:

>
>"Mavisbeacon"  wrote in message 
>news:26ad5$49f59a2b$596480f8$9758@news.upc.ie...
>>
>> "Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message 
>> news:ftk9v4pvi7c33reejkug2gql8snht54uqt@4ax.com...
>>>I repeat, there is no record of Christ's existence anywhere except the
>>> New Testament. If you find some, you will become world famous
>>> overnight.
>
>WELL?
>
>Now that you were shown it what have you to say? 
>
You haven't shown me anything worth squat. Church babble centuries
after the fact doesn't cut it. You have no independent evidence.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:39:12 EDT 2009
Article: 2013236 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hungary plans to penalize Holocaust denial
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Tue, 28 Apr 2009 01:46:54 -0700 (PDT), mirjam@actcom.co.il wrote:

>>
>> Well, for some reason, documents sent to Germany were not in German
>> and the local authorities complained. After the complaint, documents
>> were sent in German. The German texts I read said that EU documents
>> were not normally available in German, so I'm not sure what "official
>> language" means in that context.- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
>I don`t know what the source of your above story is , but it
>contradicts the EU TRANSLATION POLICY.  From the begining their
>translations were very exact, checked and rechecked , and the above
>story seems more like an Urban Legend. Complicated organizations, and
>bog Multy National organizations like the Eu , seem to be a rich soil
>for such fables.
>By Eu rules ALL EU documents were sent to Eu Members.
>mirjam

Well, if what you say is true, then Helmut Kohl got really worked up
over nothing. I can't remember anymore where I read the article. I'll
see if I can dig a bit further, but I'm pretty sure that in the early
years of the EU, the British and French made sure that Germany was
relegated to second class status until it became clear that they no
longer had the power to play that game.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:39:12 EDT 2009
Article: 2013242 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jews Bitching About Wagner's 'Ring'
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On Tue, 28 Apr 2009 07:29:41 -0700 (PDT), jn25b 
wrote:

>On Apr 28, 8:10 am, "Heinrich"  wrote:
>> "ÇDoügßT"  schreef in berichtnews:08DJl.6243$Lr6.3649@flpi143.ffdc.sbc.com...
>>
>> >  wrote in message
>> >news:7494ef66-84b5-4ca0-b100-c3d8ef2e99e0@z23g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
>> > On Apr 28, 11:07 am, "Heinrich"  wrote:
>> >> "B.H. Cramer"  schreef in
>> >> berichtnews:NNmdnbxjb8UOK2vUnZ2dnVY3go-dnZ2d@giganews.com...> They're
>> >> good, aren't they? Whine about anything.
>>
>> >> > Should we filthy goyim begin whining about cohen's ring?
>>
>> >> yes, it is amazing to see that they are now whining about almost
>> >> everything
>> >> they can whine about must be in their genes
>> > Herr Heinrich
>> > Interesting comment , coming from the person who`s only fun in life is
>> > copying any piece of news/anecdotes etc that has the word Jew or
>> > Israel in it ,,,
>> > How many hours a day do you spend on this , is the salary good ?
>> > mirjam
>>
>> > ********************
>> > He's probably a Eurotrash welfare leech, which means
>> > he's reached his nirvana of personal accomplishment.
>>
>> what kind iof an answer is this, boy? if you cannot sticj to facts you
>> better keep your mouth shut so your ingnorance would be less vissible.
>
>Note that the German Resistance to Hitler was willing to deliver
>Hitler-in-a-box
>to the Western Allies, in return for a reasonable peace with Germany,
>But the offer was refused.  Which tells us that the war wasn't about
>Hitler,

Churchill said as much on at least one occasion. It didn't really
matter who was in charge in Germany as long as Germany was powerful
enough to be a dangerous competitor to Britain.

>It was about industrial Germany, and the economic threat that Germany
>was to the British Empire. google-search "The greatest war crime"
>A good book is Wedemeyer Reports


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Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Why Gun Confiscation In America Is A Bad Idea
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On Thu, 30 Apr 2009 16:02:55 +1000, "B.H. Cramer"
 wrote:

>
>"Gord McFee"  wrote in message 
>news:jA7Kl.238816$UR4.55594@en-nntp-09.dc1.easynews.com...
>> On 4/29/2009 1:30 AM, B.H. Cramer wrote:
>>> "Gord McFee"  wrote in message 
>>> news:ifdfv4pf4pnjhn0qdqtg150sva8g90vcum@4ax.com...
>>>> On Tue, 28 Apr 2009 17:46:56 +1000, in 
>>>> <2ZidnfbLgdbpKWvUnZ2dnVY3goWdnZ2d@giganews.com>, "B.H. Cramer" 
>>>>  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> "Gord McFee"  wrote in message 
>>>>> news:kllcv4hc8ob7moit5asj7nuhlkrp08gqfq@4ax.com...
>>>>>> On Mon, 27 Apr 2009 21:09:57 +1000, in 
>>>>>> , "B.H. Cramer" 
>>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Gord McFee"  wrote in message 
>>>>>>> news:2p69v4lp93oda5d3um74qpeeb72hg6fk5q@4ax.com...
>>>>>>>> On Sun, 26 Apr 2009 05:58:07 -0700, in 
>>>>>>>> <3hm8v4lqp2ll2rekc18fnf5a383eue2cqm@4ax.com>, Klaus
>>>>>>>> Schadenfreude  wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In talk.politics.guns Tim Miller
>>>>>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> B.H. Cramer wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> "Klaus Schadenfreude" 
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote in message 
>>>>>>>>>>> news:5is6v416ktfu2dkdgqbunkdig3o5qd6pth@4ax.com...
>>>>>>>>>>>> In talk.politics.guns Topaz 
>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> by Kevin MacDonald
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The current situation in the United States is
>>>>>>>>>>>>> really an awesome display of Jewish power and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> influence.
>>>>>>>>>>>> ____ "Let's see: The Jews control the world. The
>>>>>>>>>>>> Nazis are illiterate, unemployable pedophiles. Hmmm, whom do *I* 
>>>>>>>>>>>> want to throw in my lot with...?"
>>>>>>>>>>>>  -Chris Morton, August 2001
>>>>>>>>>>> He's a coon, ferfuckssake.
>>>>>>>>>> So, basically, EVERYONE kicks your girlie ass?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> LOL!!
>>>>>>>>> He's afraid of a coon? I think the nazi-wannabe club
>>>>>>>>> needs a new spokesman!
>>>>>>>> They are afraid of their shadows.
>>>>>>> Coons are ALL shadow. They scare themselves silly.
>>>>>> Ben has never met an insulting comment he didn't like.
>>>>> What insult? Where?
>>>>
>>>> You are quite simply revolting.
>>>
>>> Oh dear. An insult from the wee tooler complaining of another's
>>> insulting behaviour.
>>
>> I can see why you and Ebersdorf get along so well.  He is a traitor to
>> his people and a coward and you are an antisemite, a racist and a coward.
>
>Anti-semite - I don't think I am but the yids have so labelled me - I'll 
>wear it with pride
>Racist - Bullshit.
>Coward - Bullshit.
>
>I see you as a traitor to Canada and the white race. I see you as a craven 
>coward. I also see you as a being racist, given you're more than happy to 
>support the ethnocentric, racist yids in everything they say and do.
>
>You're also a hypocrite and a teller/creator of porkies.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>
>> -- 
>> Gord McFee
>> I'll write no line before its time
>>
>> Visit the Holocaust History Project
>> http://www.holocaust-history.org
>> 

LOL

There seems to be no end to mcfee's stupidity.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:39:13 EDT 2009
Article: 2014884 of alt.revisionism
Path: border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-in-01.newsfeed.easynews.com!easynews!core-easynews-01!easynews.com!en-nntp-08.dc1.easynews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Why Gun Confiscation In America Is A Bad Idea
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
Message-ID: <3gjjv4908ljph6d45g4gbljr8k2e5urbt6@4ax.com>
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On Thu, 30 Apr 2009 16:03:51 +1000, "B.H. Cramer"
 wrote:

>
>"Gord McFee"  wrote in message 
>news:0C7Kl.238825$UR4.172271@en-nntp-09.dc1.easynews.com...
>> On 4/29/2009 1:30 AM, B.H. Cramer wrote:
>>
>>> "Gord McFee"  wrote in message 
>>> news:akdfv4p4r27i1lqrot89ee8n2qltvdj7gs@4ax.com...
>>>> On Tue, 28 Apr 2009 17:48:24 +1000, in 
>>>> , "B.H. Cramer" 
>>>>  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> "Gord McFee"  wrote in message 
>>>>> news:mamcv451876cq0e2k0sam893kad8j7375j@4ax.com...
>>>>>> On Mon, 27 Apr 2009 21:26:36 +1000, in 
>>>>>> <8MKdnRixd4LyC2jUnZ2dnVY3goudnZ2d@giganews.com>, "B.H. Cramer" 
>>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Gord McFee"  wrote in message 
>>>>>>> news:ks69v458dao66o1pp6v1v707t9leoj17aj@4ax.com...
>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You have no comment to make about the desperation of
>>>>>>>>> Poland, Britain et al to make war with Germany?
>>>>>>>> What desperation?  Why would Poland be desperate to make
>>>>>>>> war with the most powerful country on the face of the
>>>>>>>> planet, one that would utterly destroy them before their
>>>>>>>> allies could even mobilize?  Do you morons even read what
>>>>>>>> you post before you post it?  Of course you don't; you just
>>>>>>>> copy and paste.
>>>>> Hahahahahahaha. Dickhead. It's what you and the other Oy Vey do 
>>>>> endlessly. All your support comes from your own sites.
>>>> That was about as irrelevant as you could have been.
>>>
>>> Not to those who know what you're up to, old feller.
>>
>> Nice troll try.  However, you haven't answered the question yet.  Here
>> it is again:
>>
>> Why would Poland be desperate to make war with the most powerful country
>> on the face of the planet, one that would utterly destroy them before
>> their allies could even mobilize?
>
>I have no idea. None at all. Why does ANY country make war? It's never based 
>on commonsense or logic.
>
>>  Do you morons even read what you post
>> before you post it?
>
>Et tu, sunschein.

Polish papers in August of 1939 talked about Polish forces
overthrowing the Wehrmacht and marching on to Berlin unopposed. That
was their perception, crazy perhaps, but their perception
nevertheless. Germany was a significant player on the world stage, but
hardly the world's greatest power. The Poles apparently thought they
could quickly win.

>
>
>
>
>
>
>>
>> -- 
>> Gord McFee
>> I'll write no line before its time
>>
>> Visit the Holocaust History Project
>> http://www.holocaust-history.org
>> 


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:39:13 EDT 2009
Article: 2014886 of alt.revisionism
Path: border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-in-01.newsfeed.easynews.com!easynews!core-easynews-01!easynews.com!en-nntp-02.dc1.easynews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Why Gun Confiscation In America Is A Bad Idea
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
Message-ID: 
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On Wed, 29 Apr 2009 15:31:34 +1000, "B.H. Cramer"
 wrote:

>
>"Gord McFee"  wrote in message 
>news:d5efv4lqrhkjpo9hk5vt5estof8v09d1sg@4ax.com...
>> On Tue, 28 Apr 2009 17:51:33 +1000, in
>> <1pGdnaB3fYsUKGvUnZ2dnVY3goSdnZ2d@giganews.com>, "B.H. Cramer"
>>  wrote:
>>
>>> "Gord McFee"  wrote in message
>>> news:1vmcv414pamkkg2d662h9df94a7jgspufh@4ax.com...
>>> > On Mon, 27 Apr 2009 21:31:10 +1000, in
>>> > , "B.H. Cramer"
>>> >  wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> "Gord McFee"  wrote in message
>>> >> news:rqc9v41ovqluib2rsflfpbljmmsetmonol@4ax.com...
>>> >> > On Sun, 26 Apr 2009 09:02:43 +1000, in
>>> >> > , "B.H. Cramer"
>>> >> >  wrote:
>>> >> >
>>> >> >> "Gord McFee"  wrote in message
>>> >> >> news:srs6v4hgu8gbsf7miqg3i0cg195c3ocgsp@4ax.com...
>>> >> >> > On Sat, 25 Apr 2009 15:37:10 -0400, in
>>> >> >> > <7cp6v4dani6q70magr2ssvpd30slbr9m3b@4ax.com>, Johannes von 
>>> >> >> > Ebersdorf
>>> >> >> >  wrote:
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >> On Sat, 25 Apr 2009 09:09:52 +1000, "B.H. Cramer"
>>> >> >> >>  wrote:
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >> >"Michael Ejercito"  wrote in message
>>> >> >> >> >news:82883139-83fe-4ffe-bb95-78ca8fcf94c2@j9g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
>>> >> >> >> >On Apr 23, 3:31 pm, Topaz  wrote:
>>> >> >> >> >> Here are some quotes from "With Hitler on the Road to Power" 
>>> >> >> >> >> by
>>> >> >> >> >> Dr.
>>> >> >> >> >> Otto Dietrich
>>> >> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >> >>   Hitler's road to power was a road to ruin.
>>> >> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >> >Thanks to the yids.
>>> >> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >> Doing nothing was already the road to ruin, so Hitler didn't 
>>> >> >> >> make
>>> >> >> >> it
>>> >> >> >> any worse. Without WW2, Germany would still be paying ruinous
>>> >> >> >> "reparations" for WW1. Today, it is a prosperous state on about 
>>> >> >> >> 75%
>>> >> >> >> of
>>> >> >> >> the territory of the Empire. The old German saying "Besser ein 
>>> >> >> >> Ende
>>> >> >> >> mit Schrecken, als ein Schrecken ohne Ende" still applies. 
>>> >> >> >> (Better
>>> >> >> >> an
>>> >> >> >> ending with horrors than a horror without end)
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> > So you are happy that Hitler caused the slaughter of 7,233,000
>>> >> >> > Germans
>>> >> >> > because now Germany is prosperous.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> He does not say that at all, gourd.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > That's exactly what he said.
>>> >>
>>> >> No he did not.
>>> >
>>> > But he did.  Some German patriot that sick coward is.
>>>
>>> He did NOT say that.
>>
>> But he did.
>
>No he did not. You're putting words into his mouth.
>
>How very yid of you.
>
>
Distortion and misrepresentation are what mcfee/mcvay are all about.
That is exactly why I don't bother reading their stuff anymore. I
basically know what they're going to babble about before they say it.
They are nothing if not predictable.



From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:39:15 EDT 2009
Article: 2014888 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "Smith" and the Auschwitz camp complex. 13 reasons to not swallow the HOAX.
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
Message-ID: 
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On Wed, 29 Apr 2009 13:10:27 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
 wrote:

>
>; "please"  wrote in message 
>news:gt6bse$fem$1@pcls4.std.com...
>> In article ,
>> B.H. Cramer  wrote:
>>
>>> There are photos of everything else from WWII,
>>
>> There is not one single photo of Soviet soldiers either
>> "killing" or "raping" German civilians.  None.  Zero.
>> Zilch.  Nada.  Nothing.
>>
>
>Or of Jesus or Socrates or Alexander the Great! 
>
LOL, Mavis, you don't suppose that part of the reason for that was
that photography wasn't invented until the middle of the 19th century,
well before the time of Jesus, Socrates, or Alexander. Of these three,
only Socrates and Alexander have independent verification of their
existence.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:39:15 EDT 2009
Article: 2014889 of alt.revisionism
Path: border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-in-01.newsfeed.easynews.com!easynews!core-easynews-01!easynews.com!en-nntp-01.dc1.easynews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jesus tried to warn us about the Jews -"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lust of your father ye will do."
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
Message-ID: 
References: <9880d$49f0578c$596480f8$1651@news.upc.ie>  <5cd19$49f0d728$596480f8$22368@news.upc.ie>  <654f2$49f4b6b9$596480f8$5492@news.upc.ie>  <26ad5$49f59a2b$596480f8$9758@news.upc.ie>   <93114$49f8113e$596480f8$7595@news.upc.ie>
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On Wed, 29 Apr 2009 09:35:26 +0100, MavisBeacon
 wrote:

>Johannes von Ebersdorf wrote:
>> On Tue, 28 Apr 2009 02:38:57 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
>>  wrote:
>> 
>>> "Mavisbeacon"  wrote in message 
>>> news:26ad5$49f59a2b$596480f8$9758@news.upc.ie...
>>>> "Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message 
>>>> news:ftk9v4pvi7c33reejkug2gql8snht54uqt@4ax.com...
>>>>> I repeat, there is no record of Christ's existence anywhere except the
>>>>> New Testament. If you find some, you will become world famous
>>>>> overnight.
>>> WELL?
>>>
>>> Now that you were shown it what have you to say? 
>>>
>> You haven't shown me anything worth squat. 
>
>REally? Then why don't you go through the actual evidence I supplied you 
>with and show how non Christian historians writing in the latter part of 
>the first and early second century are not "contemporary" to Jesus who 
>was executed in about 40 AD?
>
>>Church babble 
>
>The evidence I supplied you with includes Roman (i.e. the Roman empire 
>and NOT the Roman Catholic Church) and non christian and non Roman 
>Catholic Church sources. All OUTSIDE OF THE NEW TESTAMENT!
>Your claim was "there is no record of Christ's existence anywhere except 
>the New Testament."
>
>Your claim was wrong!
>
>
> >centuries
>> after the fact doesn't cut it.
>
>
>In addition to the above contemporary evidence you have also been given 
>references ranging in history. I have asked you whether you can produce 
>any writings contemporary to alaxender the great or socrates. You have 
>utterlly FAILED to do so! By your reasoning alexander or Socrates never 
>existed!

Nonsense. Both Socrates and Alexander have huge personal
accomplishments that persisted for centuries after their deaths. By
contrast, Jesus wrote nothing, built nothing, and only speaks via
disciples who wrote at least half a century after his death.
>
>
>  >You have no independent evidence.
>
>It is listed above. roman historians from the time of Jesus. Jewish 
>ones. Heretics and athists in addition to christians wrote about Jesus.
>
>You have produced NOTHING about Alexander or Socrates from their time.

I didn't, they did.

>You have No independent evidence of their existance!

A whole raft of cities founded by Alexander are ample proof. Persian
chronicles prove the existence of Alexander. Athenian chronicles prove
the existence of Alexander and of Socrates.

>According to you alexander and socrates never existed!

More nonsense by Mavis.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:39:16 EDT 2009
Article: 2014890 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust "Victims" Count - What variance - Cremation data.
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
Message-ID: 
References: <9yCJl.24611$Db2.22407@edtnps83> <02df9c5c5b991ab6c90cef0560f4482d@mixmaster.nymu.eu>    <4c71f$49f96963$596480f8$9879@news.upc.ie>
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On Thu, 30 Apr 2009 08:58:48 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
 wrote:

>
>"B.H. Cramer"  wrote in message 
>news:G9qdnU9faI8XoGTUnZ2dnVY3gomdnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>
>> "Gord McFee"  wrote in message 
>> news:eq2iv4hs7ehnmij0gebt3pla3u232qls8e@4ax.com...
>>> On Wed, 29 Apr 2009 15:20:11 +1000, in
>>> , "B.H. Cramer"
>>>  wrote:
>>>
>>>> "Anonymous"  wrote in message
>>>> news:02df9c5c5b991ab6c90cef0560f4482d@mixmaster.nymu.eu...
>>>> > On Tue, 28 Apr 2009 12:22:29 +0000, Truthseeker wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >>> I am of the opinion that you are a Holocaust denier, that you know 
>>>> >>> that
>>>> >>> if you openly state on an international stage that that is the case 
>>>> >>> you
>>>> >>> can be arrested by international warrant
>>>> >
>>>> > I live in the USA. If I think that the holohoax is a crock of shit and
>>>> > say so here, are you telling me that if I am identified today, and 
>>>> > visit
>>>> > Germany or Austria in the future, I can be arrested there for 'denying
>>>> > the holohoax' or whatever it is called?
>>>>
>>>> Publish your thoughts along those lines and yes, you can be arrested in
>>>> Germany and many other countries for dissing the Holocaust(tm).
>>>> >
>>>> > And that can happen even though it is legal in the USA to say the
>>>> > holohaox is a crock of shit?
>>>>
>>>> Even in the US you will get your arse canned if you make too much noise
>>>> about questioning the Holocaust(tm).  Many academics have found that 
>>>> out -
>>>> the hard way.
>>>
>>> Not that you can name one and prove it.
>>
>> You lying old turd. Butz and Finkelstein come immediately to mind.
>
>Who are Butz and Finkelsein 

Holy fucking Moly, woman, do some research. Why are you wasting our
time?





>, what academic credentials do they have and how 
>were they "canned" for questioning the Holocaust? 
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:39:16 EDT 2009
Article: 2014891 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust "Victims" Count - What variance - Cremation data.
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
Message-ID: 
References: <9yCJl.24611$Db2.22407@edtnps83> <02df9c5c5b991ab6c90cef0560f4482d@mixmaster.nymu.eu>    <4c71f$49f96963$596480f8$9879@news.upc.ie> <46GdnSA0oK5A7mTUnZ2dnVY3goydnZ2d@giganews.com> 
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On Thu, 30 Apr 2009 12:55:53 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
 wrote:

>
>"B.H. Cramer"  wrote in message 
>news:46GdnSA0oK5A7mTUnZ2dnVY3goydnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>
>> "Mavisbeacon"  wrote in message 
>> news:4c71f$49f96963$596480f8$9879@news.upc.ie...
>>>
>>> "B.H. Cramer"  wrote in message 
>>> news:G9qdnU9faI8XoGTUnZ2dnVY3gomdnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>>
>>>> "Gord McFee"  wrote in message 
>>>> news:eq2iv4hs7ehnmij0gebt3pla3u232qls8e@4ax.com...
>>>>> On Wed, 29 Apr 2009 15:20:11 +1000, in
>>>>> , "B.H. Cramer"
>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> "Anonymous"  wrote in message
>>>>>> news:02df9c5c5b991ab6c90cef0560f4482d@mixmaster.nymu.eu...
>>>>>> > On Tue, 28 Apr 2009 12:22:29 +0000, Truthseeker wrote:
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >>> I am of the opinion that you are a Holocaust denier, that you know 
>>>>>> >>> that
>>>>>> >>> if you openly state on an international stage that that is the 
>>>>>> >>> case you
>>>>>> >>> can be arrested by international warrant
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > I live in the USA. If I think that the holohoax is a crock of shit 
>>>>>> > and
>>>>>> > say so here, are you telling me that if I am identified today, and 
>>>>>> > visit
>>>>>> > Germany or Austria in the future, I can be arrested there for 
>>>>>> > 'denying
>>>>>> > the holohoax' or whatever it is called?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Publish your thoughts along those lines and yes, you can be arrested 
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> Germany and many other countries for dissing the Holocaust(tm).
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > And that can happen even though it is legal in the USA to say the
>>>>>> > holohaox is a crock of shit?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Even in the US you will get your arse canned if you make too much 
>>>>>> noise
>>>>>> about questioning the Holocaust(tm).  Many academics have found that 
>>>>>> out -
>>>>>> the hard way.
>>>>>
>>>>> Not that you can name one and prove it.
>>>>
>>>> You lying old turd. Butz and Finkelstein come immediately to mind.
>>>
>>> Who are Butz and Finkelsein , what academic credentials do they have and 
>>> how were they "canned" for questioning the Holocaust?
>>
>> You really are as dumb as a box of rocks, girlie.
>
>You mentioned the names Butz and Finkelsein as cases of academics being 
>canned and you can't actually support your own claim. If you can't support 
>your own claim don't try to attack the person asking you for the supporting 
>evidence. It is a dead giveaway that you are a loser. 

I know and understand what Ben is talking about, so why don't you?

You really ARE clueless. Go away.

>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:39:16 EDT 2009
Article: 2014895 of alt.revisionism
Path: border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-in-01.newsfeed.easynews.com!easynews!core-easynews-01!easynews.com!en-nntp-05.dc1.easynews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust "Victims" Count - What variance - Cremation data.
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On Thu, 30 Apr 2009 15:57:56 +1000, "B.H. Cramer"
 wrote:

>
>"Gord McFee"  wrote in message 
>news:mr2iv49bmkbs4qm2osgja2ionq9v28sj78@4ax.com...
>> On Wed, 29 Apr 2009 15:18:32 +1000, in
>> , "B.H. Cramer"
>>  wrote:
>>
>>>  wrote in message
>>> news:76df6ae2-83f5-4f39-bec9-a4eb2e4c46ea@w31g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
>>> > On Apr 24, 11:31 am, "B.H. Cramer"  wrote:
>>> >>  wrote in message
>>> >>
>>> >> news:88fd0006-6851-4aa4-ac9e-46eeeb8b5d81@y7g2000yqa.googlegroups.com...
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> > On Apr 23, 11:48 am, "B.H. Cramer"  
>>> >> > wrote:
>>> >> >>  wrote in message
>>> >>
>>> >> >>news:c78c521a-b753-4188-a6fa-b18bef2003a0@g1g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
>>> >>
>>> >> >> > On Apr 4, 2:17 am, Anonymous  
>>> >> >> > wrote:
>>> >> >> >> The biggest victims of the 'holocaust' are the German people,
>>> >> >> >> saddled
>>> >> >> >> with reparations to worthless kikes.
>>> >>
>>> >> >> >> The second biggest victim is the idea of historical truth and
>>> >> >> >> academic
>>> >> >> >> integrity.
>>> >>
>>> >> >> > The Germans screwed everyone in occupied Europe and planned to
>>> >> >> > convert....
>>> >>
>>> >> >> Oh god. Another knob who has only read yid history.
>>> >>
>>> >> > I also note B H Cramer does not give a profile - does not mean he is
>>> >> > guilty of anything but we do not know how he gets to his denials or
>>> >> > why.
>>> >>
>>> >> Denial of what? Elaborate please.
>>> >
>>> > I am of the opinion that you are a Holocaust denier,
>>>
>>> I really don't give a flying fuck what your opinion is, sunschein.
>>>
>>> I don't believe the yid version of the Holocaust(tm).
>>>
>>> I'm in good company, actually, given there are only a few million of you
>>> clowns in the world.
>>
>> There are only a few dozen of you morons.
>
>Keep thinking that, gourd. It's that type of chutzpah, jingoism and 
>braggadocio that got the yids' arses handed to them on a platter in 2006.
>
Poor mcfee seems to be into self-deception. If their were only a few
dozen holocaust heretics, nobody would pay them any attention. The
shrill hysteria characteristic of mcfee/mcvay/RJ11/... suggests the
opposite. Their name-calling, threats, and general hysteria are a
desperate attempt to keep the sinking ship afloat.

The gas chamber story has retreated from all of Germany in 1945 to a
small cluster of camps in present-day Poland, and even there the story
is on very thin ice.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:39:17 EDT 2009
Article: 2014900 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: For Mr. Holman: Holocaust - Definition
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On Wed, 29 Apr 2009 21:12:17 +0300, holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene
Holman) wrote:

>In article , "Truthseeker"
> wrote:
>
>> Intersting Eugene last nigh i did watch a show about holocaust where a 
>> holocaust survivor but on a show.She glaims to be 65 years old and did watch 
>> the nazies took her mother away killing here in a gas camber, Tell us how 
>> old was she in 1945.
>
>A person who is 65 years now could have been born in May, 1943 and thus
>almost two years old when the events in question happened. People born in
>May 1943 will be turning 66 soon.

A child of under two would not be in a position to know what she
claims to know. It is essentially assumption and supposition on her
part. The fact that an infant, such as her, survived casts
considerable doubt on the whole narrative.

>
>Regards,
>Eugene Holman
>.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:39:17 EDT 2009
Article: 2014902 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: For Mr. Holman: Holocaust - Definition
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Thu, 30 Apr 2009 13:29:34 +1000, "B.H. Cramer"
 wrote:

>
>"Eugene Holman"  wrote in message 
>news:holman-2904092112170001@ke-hupnet122-26.hupnet.helsinki.fi...
>> In article , "Truthseeker"
>>  wrote:
>>
>>> Intersting Eugene last nigh i did watch a show about holocaust where a
>>> holocaust survivor but on a show.She glaims to be 65 years old and did 
>>> watch
>>> the nazies took her mother away killing here in a gas camber, Tell us how
>>> old was she in 1945.
>>
>> A person who is 65 years now could have been born in May, 1943 and thus
>> almost two years old when the events in question happened.
>
>And they would not have a bloody clue about what happened then. Two year 
>olds simply do not remember anything from that far back. Unless you're a 
>yid, of course.

The woman "remembers" what she was told and indoctrinated, not what
she saw.

>
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:39:17 EDT 2009
Article: 2014904 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: For Mr. Holman: Holocaust - Definition
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On Thu, 30 Apr 2009 07:47:42 +0300, holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene
Holman) wrote:

>In article , "B.H. Cramer"
> wrote:
>
>> "Eugene Holman"  wrote in message 
>> news:holman-2904092112170001@ke-hupnet122-26.hupnet.helsinki.fi...
>
>
>> >
>> > A person who is 65 years now could have been born in May, 1943 and thus
>> > almost two years old when the events in question happened.
>> 
>> And they would not have a bloody clue about what happened then. Two year 
>> olds simply do not remember anything from that far back. Unless you're a 
>> yid, of course.
>
>A two-year old could very well remember being suddenly deprived of its
>mother. That would be a traumatic experience.

She would not know how or why the mother vanished, however, except
that she was indoctrinated later with the "official" story and she is
now retelling that story.

>
>Regards,
>Eugene Holman


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:39:18 EDT 2009
Article: 2014907 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: For Mr. Holman: Holocaust - Definition
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Thu, 30 Apr 2009 10:56:48 +0300, holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene
Holman) wrote:

>In article , "B.H. Cramer"
> wrote:
>
>> "Eugene Holman"  wrote in message 
>> news:holman-3004090747420001@ke-hupnet122-26.hupnet.helsinki.fi...
>
>
>> >
>> > A two-year old could very well remember being suddenly deprived of its
>> > mother.
>> 
>> Very unlikely to be the case, holmanstein. Unless, of course, the kid was a 
>> yid.
>
>My first concrete memory is from the age of eighteen months. I climbed out
>of my crib, fell to the floor, and woke up in a strange place with strange
>people in white clothing around me. I had been taken to the hospital
>unconscious.
>
>Being deprived of one's mother at two is arguably more traumatic than
>falling and winding up in the hospital at one and a half.

She is still very unlikely to have "remembered" gas chambers, only
that her mother didn't return. The "gas chamber" stories are things
she heard later.


>
>Regards,
>Eugene Holman


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:39:18 EDT 2009
Article: 2014911 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Torture by U.S.A. during World War 2
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Wed, 29 Apr 2009 13:35:53 -0700 (PDT), george 
wrote:

>On Apr 29, 8:10 am, ZuLu  wrote:
>
>> The British had special places to that function. It is highly probable that US forces
>> had something similar.
>
>You'd like to produce evidence to back up that claim?
>Or is that just another attempt to change the subject from the nazi
>deathcamps ?

Oh get off the pot George, there was nothing that the Nazis did that
the allies didn't also do, and generally in much greater measure.
There was nothing noble or enlightened about the allies. Your
glofification efforts are dishonest and hollow.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:39:19 EDT 2009
Article: 2014913 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Honsik gets 5 years; jews happy
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Wed, 29 Apr 2009 14:24:10 GMT, "Truthseeker" 
wrote:

>And the jews will not stop till they silence the whole world.

They seem to be making that attempt, but it is an effort of
desperation that will probably end in failure.

>kk
>
>"Heinrich"  wrote in message 
>news:75q3sgF19c6nqU1@mid.individual.net...
>>
>> "Truthseeker"  schreef in bericht 
>> news:iYIJl.24747$Db2.22774@edtnps83...
>>> Five jears in jail for what. Is this done to silence a whole nation 
>>> forever while the holocaust invention racket keeps on going.
>>> Kurt Knoll.
>>>
>> germany and austria have been caught by the balls by the jews !!!!!!! 
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:39:19 EDT 2009
Article: 2014915 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jews Bitching About Wagner's 'Ring'
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Tue, 28 Apr 2009 20:57:03 -0700, "ÇDoügßT"  wrote:

>"Heinrich"  wrote in message 
>news:75omtmF19dmpgU1@mid.individual.net...
>>
>> "ÇDoügßT"  schreef in bericht 
>> news:QxFJl.25735$Ws1.13917@nlpi064.nbdc.sbc.com...
>>> "Heinrich"  wrote in message 
>>> news:75odhuF14rv6dU1@mid.individual.net...
>>>>
>>>> "ÇDoügßT"  schreef in bericht 
>>>> news:08DJl.6243$Lr6.3649@flpi143.ffdc.sbc.com...
>>>>>  wrote in message 
>>>>> news:7494ef66-84b5-4ca0-b100-c3d8ef2e99e0@z23g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
>>>>> On Apr 28, 11:07 am, "Heinrich"  wrote:
>>>>>> "B.H. Cramer"  schreef in 
>>>>>> berichtnews:NNmdnbxjb8UOK2vUnZ2dnVY3go-dnZ2d@giganews.com...> They're 
>>>>>> good, aren't they? Whine about anything.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> > Should we filthy goyim begin whining about cohen's ring?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> yes, it is amazing to see that they are now whining about almost 
>>>>>> everything
>>>>>> they can whine about must be in their genes
>>>>> Herr Heinrich
>>>>> Interesting comment , coming from the person who`s only fun in life is
>>>>> copying any piece of news/anecdotes etc that has the word Jew or
>>>>> Israel in it ,,,
>>>>> How many hours a day do you spend on this , is the salary good ?
>>>>> mirjam
>>>>>
>>>>> ********************
>>>>> He's probably a Eurotrash welfare leech, which means
>>>>> he's reached his nirvana of personal accomplishment.
>>>>>
>>>> what kind iof an answer is this, boy? if you cannot sticj to facts you 
>>>> better keep your mouth shut so your ingnorance would be less vissible.
>>>
>>> You whine exactly like a Eurotrash bitch. I'm sure you must be a dirty
>>> Slav.
>>>
>> here in europe we still think and countries and every citizen doesnot feel 
>> himself a european so the term eurotrash is not correct. for your info i 
>> am a full blooded aryan with blue eyes, fair hair and a height of 1m80cm
>
>Are you sure you're not just a sub-human slave pretending to be
>an aryan?
>
>I thought aryans came from China? 
>
Do things usually move from where there are none to a location where
there are some? That reverses the usual trend in nature, where things
tend to move from high concentration to lower concentration.

European physical characteristics are tuned to conditions in Europe,
so it seems rather most probable that local conditions acted as the
crucible to create the characteristics specific to Europeans.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:39:19 EDT 2009
Article: 2014916 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jews Bitching About Wagner's 'Ring'
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
Message-ID: <2omjv416r3jtjr2n0qvoij97ji36h1p02h@4ax.com>
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On Wed, 29 Apr 2009 06:27:31 +0200, "Heinrich"
 wrote:

>
>"ÇDoügßT"  schreef in bericht 
>news:liQJl.15417$hc1.13528@flpi150.ffdc.sbc.com...
>> "Heinrich"  wrote in message 
>> news:75omtmF19dmpgU1@mid.individual.net...
>>>
>>> "ÇDoügßT"  schreef in bericht 
>>> news:QxFJl.25735$Ws1.13917@nlpi064.nbdc.sbc.com...
>>>> "Heinrich"  wrote in message 
>>>> news:75odhuF14rv6dU1@mid.individual.net...
>>>>>
>>>>> "ÇDoügßT"  schreef in bericht 
>>>>> news:08DJl.6243$Lr6.3649@flpi143.ffdc.sbc.com...
>>>>>>  wrote in message 
>>>>>> news:7494ef66-84b5-4ca0-b100-c3d8ef2e99e0@z23g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
>>>>>> On Apr 28, 11:07 am, "Heinrich"  wrote:
>>>>>>> "B.H. Cramer"  schreef in 
>>>>>>> berichtnews:NNmdnbxjb8UOK2vUnZ2dnVY3go-dnZ2d@giganews.com...> They're 
>>>>>>> good, aren't they? Whine about anything.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> > Should we filthy goyim begin whining about cohen's ring?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> yes, it is amazing to see that they are now whining about almost 
>>>>>>> everything
>>>>>>> they can whine about must be in their genes
>>>>>> Herr Heinrich
>>>>>> Interesting comment , coming from the person who`s only fun in life is
>>>>>> copying any piece of news/anecdotes etc that has the word Jew or
>>>>>> Israel in it ,,,
>>>>>> How many hours a day do you spend on this , is the salary good ?
>>>>>> mirjam
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ********************
>>>>>> He's probably a Eurotrash welfare leech, which means
>>>>>> he's reached his nirvana of personal accomplishment.
>>>>>>
>>>>> what kind iof an answer is this, boy? if you cannot sticj to facts you 
>>>>> better keep your mouth shut so your ingnorance would be less vissible.
>>>>
>>>> You whine exactly like a Eurotrash bitch. I'm sure you must be a dirty
>>>> Slav.
>>>>
>>> here in europe we still think and countries and every citizen doesnot 
>>> feel himself a european so the term eurotrash is not correct. for your 
>>> info i am a full blooded aryan with blue eyes, fair hair and a height of 
>>> 1m80cm
>>
>> Are you sure you're not just a sub-human slave pretending to be
>> an aryan?
>>
>> I thought aryans came from China?
>> why do you americans always have to proof that you are stupid? did you 
>> participate in a rodeo show and fell of a horse/steer on too many 
>> ocassions? 

Americans are the most ignorant among the ignorant. For Americans,
ignorance is a badge of honour and distinction.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:39:20 EDT 2009
Article: 2014917 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Destroy 100 houses for each rocket fired
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On Tue, 28 Apr 2009 21:13:03 -0700, "ÇDoügßT"  wrote:

>"Heinrich"  wrote in message 
>news:6uoj25Fg3htnU1@mid.individual.net...
>> Shas Chairman Eli Yishai demands a harsh response against the rockets 
>> fired at Israel from Gaza: Yishai said Monday that Israel should set a 
>> price tag for any rocket launched by Hamas.
>>
>>
>>
>> "Even if they fire at an open area or into the sea, we must damage their 
>> infrastructures and destroy 100 houses. That's when it will end," he said.
>>
>
>I'd be doing a lot more than that. Of course I wouldn't start w/the
>Gaza Shite -- I'd turn Tehran, Pigistan and Soddy Barbaria into
>nuclear wastelands first THEN deport the palesimians to the
>Sinai.

Why are you complaining about alleged Nazis, Doug, when you are
yourself so much like the allied Nazi stereotype and then some?

>
>>
>>
>> Speaking at the 9th Annual Herzliya Conference, Yishai referred to the 
>> situation in the Gaza vicinity: "We are witnessing and aware of the harsh 
>> and complex security reality. There's no doubt that years of restraint 
>> have heavily damaged our deterrence ability.
>>
>>
>>
>> "Operation Cast Lead restored Israel's deterrence ability. It's very 
>> important, but we are now facing a big test - whether we harm the 
>> achievement to the limits of our deterrence or strengthen it.
>>
>>
>>
>> "We're not looking for a military action. The people of Israel seek peace, 
>> act sensitively while taking chances."
>>
>>
>>
>> The Shas chairman said the Jewish state "must set a price tag for every 
>> rocket fired at Israel, every tunnel dug and every act of smuggling. We 
>> will respond immediately to every act of terror using the price tag. 
>> Believe me, not much will happen before it stops - as they also want to 
>> live after all."
>>
>>
>>
>> As for the response as he views it, Yishai said, "If for every small 
>> action, even a mortar shell fired at an open area or into the sea, we 
>> damage infrastructures which have yet to be damaged or hit dozens of 
>> hundreds of terrorists' homes while informing them in advance - so as not 
>> to hurt the family members - these hours will be destroyed once and the 
>> rocket fire will end.
>>
>>
>>
>> "We're not doing this gladly or with pleasure; we are doing it in order to 
>> defend Israel's citizens. The situation in the south, if we don't act as 
>> we demand, will worsen as we are witnessing in day to day life."
>>
>>
>>
>> Yishai added that the Palestinians don't want peace and that Israel should 
>> stop being eager. "This raises the price and moves peace away."
>>
>> 
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:39:20 EDT 2009
Article: 2014919 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Destroy 100 houses for each rocket fired
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Wed, 29 Apr 2009 07:23:48 +0200, "Heinrich"
 wrote:

>
>"ÇDoügßT"  schreef in bericht 
>news:kxQJl.15419$hc1.14728@flpi150.ffdc.sbc.com...
>> "Heinrich"  wrote in message 
>> news:6uoj25Fg3htnU1@mid.individual.net...
>>> Shas Chairman Eli Yishai demands a harsh response against the rockets 
>>> fired at Israel from Gaza: Yishai said Monday that Israel should set a 
>>> price tag for any rocket launched by Hamas.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "Even if they fire at an open area or into the sea, we must damage their 
>>> infrastructures and destroy 100 houses. That's when it will end," he 
>>> said.
>>>
>>
>> I'd be doing a lot more than that. Of course I wouldn't start w/the
>> Gaza Shite -- I'd turn Tehran, Pigistan and Soddy Barbaria into
>> nuclear wastelands first THEN deport the palesimians to the
>> Sinai.
>>
> typical american behaviour: nothing but violent talk. what is it that you 
>americans are so in love with violence? 

Amerikkka is the most violent and lawless society in human history.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:39:20 EDT 2009
Article: 2014921 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: They own you, lock stock and barrel
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Wed, 29 Apr 2009 17:31:45 -0700 (PDT), "Bent Attorney Esq."
 wrote:

>'They' allow you to work provided you have a number.  'They' allow you
>a state sanctioned drug for recreational purposes.  'They' allow you
>to gamble at certain state approved games only.  'They' allow you a
>certain amount of pain killer when you are in cancerous pain.  'They'
>allow you to build as long as you ask permission and pay the juice.
>'They' do not allow you to have a smoke house in your back yard if you
>live in cities.  This is because smoke houses are a fire hazard even
>though in your neck of the woods, a fire was never started because of
>a smoke house gone out of control.
>'They' do not allow you to self medicate.  That's because you are
>stupid and would purchase anti-hypertension drugs when you have a
>tummy ache.  'They' expect and insist that you go along quietly when
>you are arrested for slapping some jerk who pushed you.  'They' can
>perform a strip search on you.  Your penis, vagina and asshole are
>their property.  Here in Ontario, 'they' do not allow you to see
>cigarettes in a shop.  'They' have ensured that the smokes are
>hidden.  This will cure smoking addiction.  So 'they' say.  'They'
>allow you a certain amount of paid holidays per year.
>Here in Ontario, our wonderful Premier gave us an additional holiday
>in February.  It's called 'Family day.'  I don't like it, but have to
>put up with it.  He gave us this holiday in order to thank us for
>voting his thieving ass back into power.

Actually, when it comes to "thieving asses", nobody can touch the
Harrisites. Our current premier is an absolute saint by comparison.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:39:21 EDT 2009
Article: 2014923 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jesus tried to warn us about the Jews -"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lust of your father ye will do."
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Thu, 30 Apr 2009 16:49:00 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
 wrote:

>
>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message 
>news:u84ev498qnsb7arf8ouceg7mptf2tjbuiv@4ax.com...
>> On Tue, 28 Apr 2009 02:38:57 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
>>  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Mavisbeacon"  wrote in message
>>>news:26ad5$49f59a2b$596480f8$9758@news.upc.ie...
>>>>
>>>> "Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message
>>>> news:ftk9v4pvi7c33reejkug2gql8snht54uqt@4ax.com...
>>>>>I repeat, there is no record of Christ's existence anywhere except the
>>>>> New Testament. If you find some, you will become world famous
>>>>> overnight.
>>>
>>>WELL?
>>>
>>>Now that you were shown it what have you to say?
>>>
>> You haven't shown me anything worth squat. Church babble centuries
>> after the fact doesn't cut it. You have no independent evidence.
>
>Clement of Rome (c. 100),Ignatius of Antioch (c. 107-110), Justin Martyr.
>Papias of Hierapolis
>Quadratus of Athens
>
>Josephus, Tacitus,
>Suetonius, and Pliny the Younger.
>(All Late first or early second century and NONE of them Christian)

OK, I'm game. What did Tacitus write that was unambiguously about
Jesus? Many of these people wrote at a time when the Christian
religion was already in existence, so they don't constitute proof of
Christ's physical existence.

>
>There is one reference to Thallus having written about the Crucifixion.
>
>Celsus wrote, about 180AD a book against the Christians. 
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:39:21 EDT 2009
Article: 2014924 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "HOLO CRAP" EPISODE 1453867894879
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Thu, 30 Apr 2009 14:09:27 GMT, "Truthseeker" 
wrote:

>How do you compare this with the German civilian who were transported in 
>cattle cars to Siberia.

That, naturally, was perfectly acceptable since the victims were not
Jews. The one-sided history of the holocaustians has irritated me for
decades and left me with a huge reservoir of doubt about their
stories.

>Kurt Knoll.
>
>"Heinrich"  wrote in message 
>news:75t0enF19qmieU1@mid.individual.net...
>> By MARSHA HALPERT
>> First published in print: Saturday, April 25, 2009
>>
>> The Holocaust imposed lasting psychological effects on its Jewish 
>> survivors. It also profoundly affected their children.
>>
>>
>> The Nazis herded men, women, boys and girls into cattle cars and 
>> railroaded them to concentration camps. Thousands of Jews and other 
>> victims of the Nazis were murdered every day. The very old and very young, 
>> the disabled and mothers holding babies were sent to the gas chambers and 
>> cremated in huge ovens. Those not immediately condemned to die were doomed 
>> to torture by hard labor, starvation, medical experimentation, operations 
>> with no anesthesia and being forced to watch atrocities perpetrated before 
>> their eyes. They never knew what would happen next? Would they get food? 
>> Be selected to die? Beaten to death? Few survived.
>>
>> "Why did you come here? Do you see the smoke from the chimney?" a guard 
>> yelled when my mother in-law arrived at Auschwitz in May 1944. "Your 
>> mothers and fathers, sisters and brothers and your children are all 
>> burning into ashes." Lily Greenspan weighed 80 pounds when the death camp 
>> was liberated in June 1945. She was 23 years old.
>>
>> Survivors' anxiety surfaced in nightmares, insomnia, depression, panic 
>> attacks, fear of strangers and of not having enough food. Many felt guilty 
>> for surviving . Many numbed their feelings to cope. Many lacked compassion 
>> for the tragedies of those outside their families.
>>
>> Everyday occurrences triggered memories of the Holocaust for my father, 
>> Sam Fried ? and for me. Feeding the ducks made me think of starving 
>> prisoners. I, too, had bad dreams about the Holocaust. I've met adult 
>> children of survivors who were pressured to be successful to compensate 
>> for their parents' lost dreams. I know a man who went to Vietnam to prove 
>> he, too, could survive a war.
>>
>> All of us Holocaust survivors' children were keenly aware we did not have 
>> grandparents, cousins, aunts and uncles. My husband, Leon Halpert, vowed 
>> to keep Jewish traditions alive, which is what his relatives murdered in 
>> the camps would have done. He and I both have sought to improve 
>> understanding among people of different faiths. For many years, I brought 
>> holiday foods like challah, kugel, hamantashen and dishes for Passover to 
>> Bishop Hubbard and his staff. I sent them Christmas and Easter cards and 
>> received wonderful thank-you letters from the bishop, a man I admire for 
>> bringing the Christian and Jewish communities together.
>>
>> Books have been written, movies have been made and great speakers have 
>> enlightened us about the Holocaust. There are several Holocaust museums. 
>> When I was 32, my father gave me the star he wore in the Czech ghetto and 
>> Auschvitz with "JUDE" on it. Jude means Jew. The word was supposed to 
>> brand my father as an outcast. I accepted that star and with it the legacy 
>> of the Holocaust.
>>
>> Events this week have commemorated Yom Hashoah, Holocaust Remembrance Day. 
>> I write about the Holocaust so people will not forget it. Most of all, I 
>> do so to keep alive the memory of my father, a kind, gentle man with a 
>> deep soul and a strong will to live. I loved him dearly. I will never 
>> understand why he had to suffer so much."
>>
>> Marsha Halpert of Albany is a companion for the elderly and former 
>> kindergarten teacher.
>> _________________
>> 
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:39:21 EDT 2009
Article: 2015140 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "Smith" and the Auschwitz camp complex. 13 reasons to not swallow the HOAX.
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Thu, 30 Apr 2009 20:40:44 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
 wrote:

>
>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message 
>news:hvjjv4tca7d4pu4jaiuslksahecnr1hgtq@4ax.com...
>> On Wed, 29 Apr 2009 13:10:27 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
>>  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>; "please"  wrote in message
>>>news:gt6bse$fem$1@pcls4.std.com...
>>>> In article ,
>>>> B.H. Cramer  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> There are photos of everything else from WWII,
>>>>
>>>> There is not one single photo of Soviet soldiers either
>>>> "killing" or "raping" German civilians.  None.  Zero.
>>>> Zilch.  Nada.  Nothing.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Or of Jesus or Socrates or Alexander the Great!
>>>
>> LOL, Mavis, you don't suppose that part of the reason for that was
>> that photography wasn't invented until the middle of the 19th century,
>
>I am well aware of anachronisms. You seem to have missed the point entirely. 
>Historical anachronisms necessitate an absence of evidence of that type. 
>This absence of evidence is not evidence of absence of the events or people 
>mentioned!
>
>
>> well before the time of Jesus, Socrates, or Alexander. Of these three,
>> only Socrates and Alexander have independent verification of their
>> existence.
>
>But while you demand certain rules for evidence for Jesus in history you 
>have DIFFERENT rules for Alexander or Socrates! and even then you have yet 
>to produce a single historical reference form even 150 years after Alexander 
>or Socrates let alone during their life. How do you know Socrates for 
>example was not invented by Plato?

Your abysmal ignorance of classical antiquity isn't my problem. There
are all manner of pieces of evidence out there that testify to the
physical existence of both Plato and Alexander the Great.

Jesus Christ, on the other hand, is RELIGION, translated as ignorance,
superstition, fables, myths, and faith.

ALL human religions have the same validity, which is to say "not
much".

>
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:39:22 EDT 2009
Article: 2015146 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Why Gun Confiscation In America Is A Bad Idea
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
Message-ID: 
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On Fri, 1 May 2009 08:06:37 +1000, "B.H. Cramer"
 wrote:

>
>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message 
>news:qojjv4hkik4be67e3qbrtub90uij6960nf@4ax.com...
>> On Wed, 29 Apr 2009 15:31:34 +1000, "B.H. Cramer"
>>  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Gord McFee"  wrote in message
>>>news:d5efv4lqrhkjpo9hk5vt5estof8v09d1sg@4ax.com...
>>>> On Tue, 28 Apr 2009 17:51:33 +1000, in
>>>> <1pGdnaB3fYsUKGvUnZ2dnVY3goSdnZ2d@giganews.com>, "B.H. Cramer"
>>>>  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> "Gord McFee"  wrote in message
>>>>> news:1vmcv414pamkkg2d662h9df94a7jgspufh@4ax.com...
>>>>> > On Mon, 27 Apr 2009 21:31:10 +1000, in
>>>>> > , "B.H. Cramer"
>>>>> >  wrote:
>>>>> >
>>>>> >> "Gord McFee"  wrote in message
>>>>> >> news:rqc9v41ovqluib2rsflfpbljmmsetmonol@4ax.com...
>>>>> >> > On Sun, 26 Apr 2009 09:02:43 +1000, in
>>>>> >> > , "B.H. Cramer"
>>>>> >> >  wrote:
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> >> "Gord McFee"  wrote in message
>>>>> >> >> news:srs6v4hgu8gbsf7miqg3i0cg195c3ocgsp@4ax.com...
>>>>> >> >> > On Sat, 25 Apr 2009 15:37:10 -0400, in
>>>>> >> >> > <7cp6v4dani6q70magr2ssvpd30slbr9m3b@4ax.com>, Johannes von
>>>>> >> >> > Ebersdorf
>>>>> >> >> >  wrote:
>>>>> >> >> >
>>>>> >> >> >> On Sat, 25 Apr 2009 09:09:52 +1000, "B.H. Cramer"
>>>>> >> >> >>  wrote:
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >> >
>>>>> >> >> >> >"Michael Ejercito"  wrote in message
>>>>> >> >> >> >news:82883139-83fe-4ffe-bb95-78ca8fcf94c2@j9g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
>>>>> >> >> >> >On Apr 23, 3:31 pm, Topaz  wrote:
>>>>> >> >> >> >> Here are some quotes from "With Hitler on the Road to 
>>>>> >> >> >> >> Power"
>>>>> >> >> >> >> by
>>>>> >> >> >> >> Dr.
>>>>> >> >> >> >> Otto Dietrich
>>>>> >> >> >> >
>>>>> >> >> >> >>   Hitler's road to power was a road to ruin.
>>>>> >> >> >> >
>>>>> >> >> >> >Thanks to the yids.
>>>>> >> >> >> >
>>>>> >> >> >> Doing nothing was already the road to ruin, so Hitler didn't
>>>>> >> >> >> make
>>>>> >> >> >> it
>>>>> >> >> >> any worse. Without WW2, Germany would still be paying ruinous
>>>>> >> >> >> "reparations" for WW1. Today, it is a prosperous state on 
>>>>> >> >> >> about
>>>>> >> >> >> 75%
>>>>> >> >> >> of
>>>>> >> >> >> the territory of the Empire. The old German saying "Besser ein
>>>>> >> >> >> Ende
>>>>> >> >> >> mit Schrecken, als ein Schrecken ohne Ende" still applies.
>>>>> >> >> >> (Better
>>>>> >> >> >> an
>>>>> >> >> >> ending with horrors than a horror without end)
>>>>> >> >> >
>>>>> >> >> > So you are happy that Hitler caused the slaughter of 7,233,000
>>>>> >> >> > Germans
>>>>> >> >> > because now Germany is prosperous.
>>>>> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> He does not say that at all, gourd.
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> > That's exactly what he said.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> No he did not.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > But he did.  Some German patriot that sick coward is.
>>>>>
>>>>> He did NOT say that.
>>>>
>>>> But he did.
>>>
>>>No he did not. You're putting words into his mouth.
>>>
>>>How very yid of you.
>>>
>>>
>> Distortion and misrepresentation are what mcfee/mcvay are all about.
>> That is exactly why I don't bother reading their stuff anymore. I
>> basically know what they're going to babble about before they say it.
>> They are nothing if not predictable.
>
>Predictable they are. Agenda driven they are. Paid shills they probably are.
>
>Zulu posted some very intersting information yesterday detailing the methods 
>utilised to put a particular spin on the Nuremberg "trials" evidence.
>
>Very intersting reading.

It was interesting. I was aware of some of the material, but there
were some new items as well. Thanks!

>
>ERNST KALTENBRUNNER
>
>During Kaltenbrunner's cross examination, he was indignantly asked how
>he had the nerve to
>pretend he was telling the truth and that 20 or 30 witnesses were
>lying (XI 349 <<385>>).
>
>The "eyewitnesses", of course, did not appear in court; they were
>merely names on pieces of
>paper. One of these names is that of Franz Ziereis, commandant of
>Mauthausen concentration
>camp.
>
>Ziereis "confessed" to gassing 65,000 people; making lampshades out of
>human skin;
>manufacturing counterfeit money; and supplied a complicated table of
>statistical information
>containing the exact number of inmates in 31 different camps. He then
>accused
>Kaltenbrunner of ordering the entire camp (Mauthausen) to be killed
>upon the approach of
>the Americans.
>
>Ziereis had been dead for 10 and a half months when he made this
>"confession". Fortunately,
>the "confession" has been "remembered" by someone else: a
>concentration camp inmate
>named Hans Marsalek, who never appeared in court, but whose signature
>appears on the
>document (Document 3870-PS, XXXIII 279-286).
>
>Pages 1 through 6 of this document are in quotation marks(!),
>including the statistical table,
>which states, for example, that there were 12,000 inmates at Ebensee;
>12,000 at Mauthausen;
>24,000 at Gusen I and II; 20 inmates at Schloss-Lindt, 70 inmates at
>Klagenfurt-
>Junkerschule, etc, for all of 31 camps in the table.
>
>The document is not signed by anyone else alleged to have been present
>at Ziereis's
>"confession", and no notes alleged to have been taken at the time are
>appended to the
>document. The document bears two signatures only: that of Hans
>Marsalek, the inmate; and
>that of Smith W. Brookhart Jr. U.S. Army. The document bears the date
>8 April 1946. Ziereis
>died 23 May 1945.
>
>The pretense was that Ziereis was too seriously injured (he died of
>multiple gunshot wounds
>through the stomach) to sign anything at the time, but he was healthy
>enough to dictate this
>lengthy and complex document, which was then "remembered" exactly and
>verbatim by
>Marsalek for 10 and a half months. Marsalek would, of course, have had
>no motivation to lie.
>The document is in German. Brookhart was a confession ghostwriter who
>also wrote the
>"confessions" of Rudolf Höss (in English, Document 3868-PS) and Otto
>Ohlendorf (in
>German, Document 2620-PS).
>
>(Brookhart was the son of a Senator from Washington Iowa. Address in
>1992: 18 Hillside
>Drive, Denver Colorado, USA. Brookhart never answered my letter as to
>whether he had any
>papers or memoirs.)
>
>Ziereis's "confession" continues to be taken seriously by Reitlinger,
>Shirer, Hilberg, and other
>itinerant peddlers of Holo-Schlock.
>
>                                                      - 37 -
>
>Kaltenbrunner claimed that there were 13 central concentration camps
>or "Stammlager"
>during the war (XI 268-269 <<298-299>>). The prosecution total of 300
>concentration camps
>was achieved by including perfectly normal work camps. The 13th camp,
>Matzgau, near
>Danzig, was a special camp whose prisoners were SS guards and police
>who had been
>sentenced to imprisonment for offenses against prisoners in their
>charge: physical
>mistreatment, embezzlement, theft of personal property, etc. This camp
>with its inmate SS
>men fell into the hands of the Russians at the end of the war (XI 312,
>316 <<345, 350>>).
>
>Kaltenbrunner claimed that sentences passed by SS and police courts
>were far more severe
>than sentences passed by other courts for the same offenses. The SS
>carried out frequent trials
>of their own men for offenses against inmates and violations of
>discipline (XXI 264-291,
>369-370 <<294-323, 408-409>>).
>
>Third degree methods of interrogation were permitted by law for the
>sole purpose of
>obtaining information relating to future resistance activity; it was
>forbidden for the purpose
>of obtaining confessions. These interrogators required the presence of
>a doctor, and allowed a
>total of 20 blows with a stick once only, on the bare buttocks, a
>process which could not be
>repeated later. Other forms of legal "Nazi torture" included
>confinement in a dark cell, or
>standing during lengthy interrogations (XX 164, 180-181 <<184,
>202-203>>; XXI 502-510;
>528-530 <<556-565, 583-584>>).
>
>Kaltenbrunner and many other defense witnesses claimed that similar
>methods were used by
>police all over the world (XI 312 <<346>>) and that respected police
>officials visited
>Germany to study German procedures (XXI 373 <<412>>).
>Defense evidence on this and related topics amounts to many thousands
>of pages divided
>between the Tribunal and "commission", and 136,000 affidavits (XXI
>346-373 <<382-
>412>>; 415 <<458>>, 444 <<492>>).
>
>Kaltenbrunner was convicted of conspiring to "lynch" Allied airmen who
>committed mass
>bombings of civilians. The lynchings would have been illegal, but did
>not occur. Many
>airmen were saved from mobs by German officials. The Germans refused
>to contemplate
>such a matter, fearing it would lead to a general slaughter of
>parachuted fliers. Like so many
>other German crimes, this remained an idea without effect (XXI 406-407
><<449-450>>, 472-
>476 <<522-527>>).
>
>Another crime committed by Kaltenbrunner was responsibility for the so-
>called "Bullet
>Order". This is supposed to have been an order to shoot prisoners of
>war using a measuring
>contraption (probably inspired by the Paul Waldmann pedal-driven brain
>bashing machine,
>Document USSR-52, VII 377 <<416-417>>).
>
>The "Bullet Order", Document 1650-PS, if it is an authentic document,
>which it probably is
>not (XVIII 35-36 <<43-44>>) is a mistranslation: the sense of the
>order is that prisoners who
>attempt to escape should be chained to an iron ball (Kugel), and not
>that they should be shot
>with a "bullet" (also Kugel). The word "chained" appears in the
>document, but the word
>"shot" does not (III 506 <<565>>; XXI 514 <<568>>); Gestapo affidavit
>75; XXI 299
><<332>>). The document is a "teletype" thus, without a signature
>(XXVII 424-428).
>
>                                                 - 38 -
>
>"Sonderbehandlung" (special treatment) is an example of the ugly
>jargon used in all
>bureaucracies, and is probably best translated as "treatment on a case
>by case basis".
>Kaltenbrunner was able to show that it meant, in the context of one
>document, the right to
>drink champagne and take French lessons. The prosecution got a winter
>resort mixed up with
>a concentration camp (XI 338-339 <<374-375>>); (XI 232-386
><<259-427>>; XVIII 40-68
><<49-80>>). (The winter resort document is Document 3839-PS, XXXIII
>197-199, an
>"affidavit").
>
>
>From
>Carlos W. Porter, Not Guilty at Nuremberg, p 36-38
>http://www.vho.org/aaargh/fran/livres3/CPeng.pdf
>
>"Sonderbehandlung" (special treatment) according with Kaltenbrunner
>
>
>
>COL. AMEN: Very well. Now let us read along in the center of the page,
>commencing with:
>
>"In regard to 'special treatment' I have the following knowledge:
>
>"On occasion of meetings of the office chiefs, Gruppenfuehrer Muller
>frequently consulted Kaltenbrunner as to whether this or that case
>should be specially treated or if 'special treatment' was to be
>considered. The following is an example of how the conversation went:
>
>"Muller: Case Obergruppenfuehrer B. please, 'special treatment' or
>not?
>
>"Kaltenbrunner: Yes, or submit it to the Reichsfuehrer SS for
>decision.
>
>"Or:
>
>"Muller: Obergruppenfuehrer, no answer has arrived from the
>Reichsfuehrer SS in regard to 'special treatment' for Case A.
>
>"Kaltenbrunner: Ask once more. "Or:
>
>"Muller handed a paper to Kaltenbrunner and asked for instructions, as
>described above.
>
>"When Muller had such a conversation with Kaltenbrunner, he only
>mentioned the initials, so that the persons present at the table never
>knew who was involved."
>
>And then the last two paragraphs:
>
>"Both Muller and Kaltenbrunner proposed in my presence 'special
>treatment' or submission to the Reichsfuehrer SS for approval of
>'special treatment' for certain cases which I cannot specify in
>detail. I estimate that In approximately 50 percent of the cases
>special treatment' was approved."
>
>Are the contents of that affidavit true or false, Defendant?
>
>KALTENBRUNNER: The contents are not correct, when given the
>interpretation you are giving to the document. You will see
>immediately that the tragic expression "special treatment" is given
>here an absolutely humorous turn. Do you know the meaning of
>Winzerstube in Godesberg, and of Walsertraum in the Walsertal, and
>their relation to the term "Sonderbehandlung"? Walsertraum is the
>smartest and most fashionable Alpine hotel of the whole German
>
>338
>
>12 April 46
>
>Reich, and the Winzerstube is a very famous hotel in Godesberg in
>which many international meetings were held. Especially qualified and
>distinguished personalities were accommodated there-I would mention M.
>Poncet and M. Herriot and many more. They had three times the normal
>ration for diplomats, which is nine times the ration of the ordinary
>German during the war. They were daily given a bottle of champagne.
>They were allowed to correspond freely with their families in France
>and to receive parcels. These internees were allowed to receive visits
>on several occasions, their wishes were cared for wherever they were.
>That is what is meant here by 'special treatment."
>
>I can only state here that it may well be that Muller may have talked
>about this to me, since I was extremely anxious from the point of view
>of foreign policy and intelligence that the Reich should now follow my
>suggestion and treat foreign persons in a more humane manner. It is in
>this connection that Muller may have spoken to me, but Winzerstube and
>Godesberg, these two final achievements of this so-called "special
>treatment," were the places where political internees upon parole were
>accommodated and received preferential treatment.
>
>COL. AMEN: Did you have frequent meetings with your section heads,
>including Muller, as indicated in this document?
>
>KALTENBRUNNER: I stated yesterday and today that, of course, I met
>Muller when we were lunching together, which we had to do because all
>our 38 buildings in Berlin had been destroyed or damaged by bombs, but
>I did not talk to him about official matters concerning Amt IV.
>
>This document makes it clear that these were matters of extreme
>interest to me as Chief of Intelligence.
>
>May I ask you not to leave this document just yet. It must be put on
>record before this Tribunal that these two establishments are used as
>I wished for the preferential and better treatment than that enjoyed
>by the Germans. That is of great importance to me for my defense, and
>I am asking you-I shall ask you through my counsel- that you make
>detailed inquiries about these two hotels, and I also request that you
>ask M. Poncet, as the leader of the French detainees, about the
>treatment he received there. He had such a good time there that he
>gave French lessons to the wife of a criminal investigation official,
>and taught her French when they went for walks for hours without being
>guarded at all.
>
>
>
>http://avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/04-12-46.asp
>
>>
>> 


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:39:23 EDT 2009
Article: 2015147 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Why Gun Confiscation In America Is A Bad Idea
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On Fri, 1 May 2009 08:04:22 +1000, "B.H. Cramer"
 wrote:

>
>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message 
>news:qdjjv49t0tts0i4jkga23qg2ld1jgf9mvh@4ax.com...
>> On Thu, 30 Apr 2009 16:02:55 +1000, "B.H. Cramer"
>>  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Gord McFee"  wrote in message
>>>news:jA7Kl.238816$UR4.55594@en-nntp-09.dc1.easynews.com...
>>>> On 4/29/2009 1:30 AM, B.H. Cramer wrote:
>>>>> "Gord McFee"  wrote in message
>>>>> news:ifdfv4pf4pnjhn0qdqtg150sva8g90vcum@4ax.com...
>>>>>> On Tue, 28 Apr 2009 17:46:56 +1000, in
>>>>>> <2ZidnfbLgdbpKWvUnZ2dnVY3goWdnZ2d@giganews.com>, "B.H. Cramer"
>>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Gord McFee"  wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:kllcv4hc8ob7moit5asj7nuhlkrp08gqfq@4ax.com...
>>>>>>>> On Mon, 27 Apr 2009 21:09:57 +1000, in
>>>>>>>> , "B.H. Cramer"
>>>>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "Gord McFee"  wrote in message
>>>>>>>>> news:2p69v4lp93oda5d3um74qpeeb72hg6fk5q@4ax.com...
>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 26 Apr 2009 05:58:07 -0700, in
>>>>>>>>>> <3hm8v4lqp2ll2rekc18fnf5a383eue2cqm@4ax.com>, Klaus
>>>>>>>>>> Schadenfreude  wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> In talk.politics.guns Tim Miller
>>>>>>>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> B.H. Cramer wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Klaus Schadenfreude" 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>>>>> news:5is6v416ktfu2dkdgqbunkdig3o5qd6pth@4ax.com...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In talk.politics.guns Topaz 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by Kevin MacDonald
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The current situation in the United States is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> really an awesome display of Jewish power and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> influence.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ____ "Let's see: The Jews control the world. The
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nazis are illiterate, unemployable pedophiles. Hmmm, whom do 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *I*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> want to throw in my lot with...?"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  -Chris Morton, August 2001
>>>>>>>>>>>>> He's a coon, ferfuckssake.
>>>>>>>>>>>> So, basically, EVERYONE kicks your girlie ass?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> LOL!!
>>>>>>>>>>> He's afraid of a coon? I think the nazi-wannabe club
>>>>>>>>>>> needs a new spokesman!
>>>>>>>>>> They are afraid of their shadows.
>>>>>>>>> Coons are ALL shadow. They scare themselves silly.
>>>>>>>> Ben has never met an insulting comment he didn't like.
>>>>>>> What insult? Where?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You are quite simply revolting.
>>>>>
>>>>> Oh dear. An insult from the wee tooler complaining of another's
>>>>> insulting behaviour.
>>>>
>>>> I can see why you and Ebersdorf get along so well.  He is a traitor to
>>>> his people and a coward and you are an antisemite, a racist and a 
>>>> coward.
>>>
>>>Anti-semite - I don't think I am but the yids have so labelled me - I'll
>>>wear it with pride
>>>Racist - Bullshit.
>>>Coward - Bullshit.
>>>
>>>I see you as a traitor to Canada and the white race. I see you as a craven
>>>coward. I also see you as a being racist, given you're more than happy to
>>>support the ethnocentric, racist yids in everything they say and do.
>>>
>>>You're also a hypocrite and a teller/creator of porkies.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> -- 
>>>> Gord McFee
>>>> I'll write no line before its time
>>>>
>>>> Visit the Holocaust History Project
>>>> http://www.holocaust-history.org
>>>>
>>
>> LOL
>>
>> There seems to be no end to mcfee's stupidity.
>
>He's not stupid in the intellectual sense, but he's stupid to think he's on 
>the side of right.

Self-deception would have been a better term than stupidity. McFee
simply seems to uncritically accept everything anti-German nonsense he
is told, something along the lines of that schadenfreude creep.

>
>
>> 


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:39:23 EDT 2009
Article: 2015149 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Why Gun Confiscation In America Is A Bad Idea
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Fri, 1 May 2009 12:49:32 +1000, "B.H. Cramer"
 wrote:

>
>"Gord McFee"  wrote in message 
>news:8fnkv4t30659neb087qrvhm7i5merb50m6@4ax.com...
>> On Thu, 30 Apr 2009 16:03:51 +1000, in
>> <7YOdnRU3Vo3SomTUnZ2dnVY3go6dnZ2d@giganews.com>, "B.H. Cramer"
>>  wrote:
>>
>>> "Gord McFee"  wrote in message
>>> news:0C7Kl.238825$UR4.172271@en-nntp-09.dc1.easynews.com...
>>> > On 4/29/2009 1:30 AM, B.H. Cramer wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> "Gord McFee"  wrote in message
>>> >> news:akdfv4p4r27i1lqrot89ee8n2qltvdj7gs@4ax.com...
>>> >>> On Tue, 28 Apr 2009 17:48:24 +1000, in
>>> >>> , "B.H. Cramer"
>>> >>>  wrote:
>>> >>>
>>> >>>> "Gord McFee"  wrote in message
>>> >>>> news:mamcv451876cq0e2k0sam893kad8j7375j@4ax.com...
>>> >>>>> On Mon, 27 Apr 2009 21:26:36 +1000, in
>>> >>>>> <8MKdnRixd4LyC2jUnZ2dnVY3goudnZ2d@giganews.com>, "B.H. Cramer"
>>> >>>>>  wrote:
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>> "Gord McFee"  wrote in message
>>> >>>>>> news:ks69v458dao66o1pp6v1v707t9leoj17aj@4ax.com...
>>> >>>>> [...]
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>> You have no comment to make about the desperation of
>>> >>>>>>>> Poland, Britain et al to make war with Germany?
>>> >>>>>>> What desperation?  Why would Poland be desperate to make
>>> >>>>>>> war with the most powerful country on the face of the
>>> >>>>>>> planet, one that would utterly destroy them before their
>>> >>>>>>> allies could even mobilize?  Do you morons even read what
>>> >>>>>>> you post before you post it?  Of course you don't; you just
>>> >>>>>>> copy and paste.
>>> >>>> Hahahahahahaha. Dickhead. It's what you and the other Oy Vey do
>>> >>>> endlessly. All your support comes from your own sites.
>>> >>> That was about as irrelevant as you could have been.
>>> >>
>>> >> Not to those who know what you're up to, old feller.
>>> >
>>> > Nice troll try.  However, you haven't answered the question yet.  Here
>>> > it is again:
>>> >
>>> > Why would Poland be desperate to make war with the most powerful 
>>> > country
>>> > on the face of the planet, one that would utterly destroy them before
>>> > their allies could even mobilize?
>>>
>>> I have no idea. None at all.
>>
>> That is exactly the point.  Poland was not desperate to make war on
>> Germany.
>
>Because you say so.
>>
>>> Why does ANY country make war? It's never based
>>> on commonsense or logic.
>>
>> It is sometimes.  The "logic", such as it is, is that the country that
>> starts the war thinks it can win it.  Hitler thought he was going to
>> have a localized war because he had been assured by the idiot von
>> Ribbentrop that Britain and France would huff and puff and not
>> interfere and not declare war.  Had von Ribbentrop been right, Hitler
>> would have had his short and quick war, and who knows what would have
>> happened.  But he was wrong, as usual, and Hitler made a major mistake
>> listening to him.  Chamberlain had made it clear in March 1939 that
>> the time for Britain sitting idly by was over.
>
>More cherry picked "facts" from the ole Holocaust(tm) huxter.

The foreign minister, von Ribbentrop, has hardly an idiot, nor was he
wrong "most of the time". Poor mcfee doesn't realize how much of a
put-down his babblings are to his cherished allies, who took six years
and huge casualty lists to defeat "idiots" like von Ribbentrop despite
having a huge numerical advantage.

>
>
>>
>> -- 
>> Gord McFee
>> I'll write no line before its time
>>
>> Visit the Holocaust History Project
>> http://www.holocaust-history.org
>> 


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:39:23 EDT 2009
Article: 2015151 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Why Gun Confiscation In America Is A Bad Idea
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Thu, 30 Apr 2009 16:21:42 -0700 (PDT), "Bent Attorney Esq."
 wrote:

>On Apr 28, 8:03 am, Klaus Schadenfreude 
>wrote:
>> In talk.politics.guns Topaz  wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> >Here is part of Hitler's
>>
>> Nobody reads the speeches of a proven half-wit.
>
>You should read it.  It doesn't sound like the man is/was a half-wit.

On the other hand, it is abundantly clear that the creep
"schadenfreude" is a clueless idiot.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:39:24 EDT 2009
Article: 2015152 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jesus tried to warn us about the Jews -"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lust of your father ye will do."
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On Thu, 30 Apr 2009 20:22:32 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
 wrote:

>
>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message 
>news:l5kjv41stq52bo75s13g7crbr0uqqeqhpl@4ax.com...
>> On Wed, 29 Apr 2009 09:35:26 +0100, MavisBeacon
>>  wrote:
>>
>>>Johannes von Ebersdorf wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 28 Apr 2009 02:38:57 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
>>>>  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> "Mavisbeacon"  wrote in message
>>>>> news:26ad5$49f59a2b$596480f8$9758@news.upc.ie...
>>>>>> "Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message
>>>>>> news:ftk9v4pvi7c33reejkug2gql8snht54uqt@4ax.com...
>>>>>>> I repeat, there is no record of Christ's existence anywhere except 
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> New Testament. If you find some, you will become world famous
>>>>>>> overnight.
>>>>> WELL?
>>>>>
>>>>> Now that you were shown it what have you to say?
>>>>>
>>>> You haven't shown me anything worth squat.
>>>
>>>REally? Then why don't you go through the actual evidence I supplied you
>>>with and show how non Christian historians writing in the latter part of
>>>the first and early second century are not "contemporary" to Jesus who
>>>was executed in about 40 AD?
>>>
>>>>Church babble
>>>
>>>The evidence I supplied you with includes Roman (i.e. the Roman empire
>>>and NOT the Roman Catholic Church) and non christian and non Roman
>>>Catholic Church sources. All OUTSIDE OF THE NEW TESTAMENT!
>>>Your claim was "there is no record of Christ's existence anywhere except
>>>the New Testament."
>>>
>>>Your claim was wrong!
>>>
>>>
>>> >centuries
>>>> after the fact doesn't cut it.
>>>
>>>
>>>In addition to the above contemporary evidence you have also been given
>>>references ranging in history. I have asked you whether you can produce
>>>any writings contemporary to alaxender the great or socrates. You have
>>>utterlly FAILED to do so! By your reasoning alexander or Socrates never
>>>existed!
>>
>> Nonsense. Both Socrates and Alexander have huge personal
>> accomplishments that persisted for centuries after their deaths.
>
>LOL! And christianity didn't? LOL!

Christianity is just another silly human religion among hundreds. The
Church of Rome held back civilization for centuries with its ignorance
and superstition.

>
>Look. wher is your writings from the time of alexander or writings by 
>Socrates?
>You haven't produced ANY evidence!

It isn't my job to educate you, Mavis. The evidence exists by the
tonne in any larger library.

>
>>By
>> contrast, Jesus wrote nothing, built nothing, and only speaks via
>> disciples who wrote at least half a century after his death.
>
>WRONG! you have been shown evidence from ROMAN historians JEWISH and others!

There are no trial transcripts and no records that anybody meeting the
description of "Jesus of Nazareth" was ever charged with anything, let
alone crucified.

>
>What did Socrates personally build?

Socrates was a philosopher and teacher, not an architect.

>What did Socrates write?

>Socrates only ever speaks through diciples.
>What writings about him or by him from his time survive?

He was condemned by the assembly for allegedly corrupting the youth of
Athens. That was recorded, and constitutes proof of his existence.

>The best Ill bet you can do is supply something from AFTER the time of Jesus 
>when Jesus was already over 300 years after Socrates!

Nonsense

>
>>>
>>>
>>>  >You have no independent evidence.
>
>You have no independent evidence of socrates! I have shown you roman and 
>Jewish hiostorians and non christians as well as non New testament writings!
>Your claim about "nothing outside of the New Testament" is clearly WRONG!

You're still spinning your wheels, Mavis, but going nowhere.

>
>
>>>
>>>It is listed above. roman historians from the time of Jesus. Jewish
>>>ones. Heretics and athists in addition to christians wrote about Jesus.
>>>
>>>You have produced NOTHING about Alexander or Socrates from their time.
>>
>> I didn't, they did.
>
>You have produced NOTHING contemporary to Socrates by him!
>
>>
>>>You have No independent evidence of their existance!
>>
>> A whole raft of cities founded by Alexander are ample proof.
>
>No they aren't! How are they.
>If a "sacred heart of jesus" church exists in every city in the world does 
>that therefore prove Jesus?
>
>> Persian
>> chronicles prove the existence of Alexander.
>
>What Persian Chronicles? Ill betr you can produce NONE from the time 
>Alexander was meant to be alive!
>
>>Athenian chronicles prove
>> the existence of Alexander and of Socrates.
>
>What Athenian chronicles from the time of Alexander or Socrates? Again Ill 
>bet you can produce no contemporary accounts! If you produce any they will 
>most likely be from at least 300 years later. Yet you discount anything 
>about Jesus from say 150 years after Jesus
>>
>>>According to you alexander and socrates never existed!
>>
>> More nonsense by Mavis.
>
>But the evidence is absent! Where are these Chronicles you claim that were 
>written say in 330 BC when Alexander was meant to be around?
>Where is there anything ever written by Socrates?
>
>Yet you claim that if Jesus didn't write something or if someone from around 
>the same time as Jesus didn't refer to him then he didn't exist?
>
>You have double standards! 
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:39:24 EDT 2009
Article: 2015154 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jesus tried to warn us about the Jews -"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lust of your father ye will do."
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Thu, 30 Apr 2009 20:34:37 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
 wrote:

>
>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message 
>news:ljojv41b00q38lqjojjl16cp8sg2vhcv34@4ax.com...
>> On Thu, 30 Apr 2009 16:49:00 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
>>  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message
>>>news:u84ev498qnsb7arf8ouceg7mptf2tjbuiv@4ax.com...
>>>> On Tue, 28 Apr 2009 02:38:57 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
>>>>  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>"Mavisbeacon"  wrote in message
>>>>>news:26ad5$49f59a2b$596480f8$9758@news.upc.ie...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message
>>>>>> news:ftk9v4pvi7c33reejkug2gql8snht54uqt@4ax.com...
>>>>>>>I repeat, there is no record of Christ's existence anywhere except the
>>>>>>> New Testament. If you find some, you will become world famous
>>>>>>> overnight.
>>>>>
>>>>>WELL?
>>>>>
>>>>>Now that you were shown it what have you to say?
>>>>>
>>>> You haven't shown me anything worth squat. Church babble centuries
>>>> after the fact doesn't cut it. You have no independent evidence.
>>>
>>>Clement of Rome (c. 100),Ignatius of Antioch (c. 107-110), Justin Martyr.
>>>Papias of Hierapolis
>>>Quadratus of Athens
>>>
>>>Josephus, Tacitus,
>>>Suetonius, and Pliny the Younger.
>>>(All Late first or early second century and NONE of them Christian)
>>
>> OK, I'm game. What did Tacitus write that was unambiguously about
>> Jesus?
>
>
>LOL! I note you added "unambiguous"! The point isnt whether Jesus Christed 
>existed! The point you made what that no evidence outside of the New 
>Testament esists! You were wrong!

It isn't too bloody likely that I'm wrong. You are just the victim of
a rather primitive American education.

>
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus#Ancient_Creeds
>Tacitus (c. 56-c. 117), writing c. 116, included in his Annals a mention of 
>Christianity and "Christus", the Latinized Greek translation of the Hebrew 
>word "Messiah". In describing Nero's persecution of this group following the 
>Great Fire of Rome c. 64, he wrote:

Tacitus wasn't even born until after Christ's death. His comments are
about Christians, since the cult obviously existed already during his
lifetime. His writings could count as "proof" of the existence of the
cult, but not of the existence of Christ himself.

>
>  Nero fastened the guilt of starting the blaze and inflicted the most 
>exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called 
>Christians [Chrestians] by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had 
>its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius 14-37 
>at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most 
>mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not 
>only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all 
>things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre 
>and become popular
>
>the vast majority of scholars conclude that the passage was written by 
>Tacitus
>
>Flavius Josephus (c. 37-c. 100), a Jew and Roman citizen who worked under 
>the patronage of the Flavians, wrote the Antiquities of the Jews in 93 AD.. 
>In these works, Jesus is mentioned twice.
>
>Pliny the Younger, the provincial governor of Pontus and Bithynia, wrote to 
>Emperor Trajan c. 112 concerning how to deal with Christians, who refused to 
>worship the emperor, and instead worshiped "Christus".
>
>  Those who denied that they were or had been Christians, when they invoked 
>the gods in words dictated by me, offered prayer with incense and wine to 
>your image, which I had ordered to be brought for this purpose together with 
>statues of the gods, and moreover cursed Christ - none of which those who 
>are really Christians, it is said, can be forced to do - these I thought 
>should be discharged. Others named by the informer declared that they were 
>Christians, but then denied it, asserting that they had been but had ceased 
>to be, some three years before, others many years, some as much as 
>twenty-five years. They all worshiped your image and the statues of the 
>gods, and cursed Christ
>
>
>
>>Many of these people wrote at a time when the Christian
>> religion was already in existence, so they don't constitute proof of
>> Christ's physical existence.
>
>LOL! What a load of shite! You want people from BEFORE the time of Jesus 
>now?
>
>I suppose you can produce someone from BEFORE alexander was born to prove 
>alexander! LOL!
>
>Look! You can't produce a writing by someone who wrote at the time of 
>socrates about Socrates or Alexander can you?
>Now I didn't say that I would reject any reference to anyone later writing 
>about such a writing even if you can't produce it because I know about 
>historical methodology with respect to ancient history. You obviously don't 
>!
>
>But Ill bet you cant produce a writing from a hundred years later and that 
>the best you can do is produce something from about 350 years later 
>referring to a lost earlier work.
>
>>
>>>
>>>There is one reference to Thallus having written about the Crucifixion.
>>>
>>>Celsus wrote, about 180AD a book against the Christians.
>>> 
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:39:25 EDT 2009
Article: 2015155 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust "Victims" Count - What variance - Cremation data.
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Thu, 30 Apr 2009 20:07:49 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
 wrote:

>
>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message 
>news:tfkjv41ng0i1u04fj278n18vrfhac3c7dt@4ax.com...
>> On Thu, 30 Apr 2009 12:55:53 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
>>  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"B.H. Cramer"  wrote in message
>>>news:46GdnSA0oK5A7mTUnZ2dnVY3goydnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>>
>>>> "Mavisbeacon"  wrote in message
>>>> news:4c71f$49f96963$596480f8$9879@news.upc.ie...
>>>>>
>>>>> "B.H. Cramer"  wrote in message
>>>>> news:G9qdnU9faI8XoGTUnZ2dnVY3gomdnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Gord McFee"  wrote in message
>>>>>> news:eq2iv4hs7ehnmij0gebt3pla3u232qls8e@4ax.com...
>>>>>>> On Wed, 29 Apr 2009 15:20:11 +1000, in
>>>>>>> , "B.H. Cramer"
>>>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Anonymous"  wrote in message
>>>>>>>> news:02df9c5c5b991ab6c90cef0560f4482d@mixmaster.nymu.eu...
>>>>>>>> > On Tue, 28 Apr 2009 12:22:29 +0000, Truthseeker wrote:
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> >>> I am of the opinion that you are a Holocaust denier, that you 
>>>>>>>> >>> know
>>>>>>>> >>> that
>>>>>>>> >>> if you openly state on an international stage that that is the
>>>>>>>> >>> case you
>>>>>>>> >>> can be arrested by international warrant
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > I live in the USA. If I think that the holohoax is a crock of shit
>>>>>>>> > and
>>>>>>>> > say so here, are you telling me that if I am identified today, and
>>>>>>>> > visit
>>>>>>>> > Germany or Austria in the future, I can be arrested there for
>>>>>>>> > 'denying
>>>>>>>> > the holohoax' or whatever it is called?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Publish your thoughts along those lines and yes, you can be arrested
>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>> Germany and many other countries for dissing the Holocaust(tm).
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > And that can happen even though it is legal in the USA to say the
>>>>>>>> > holohaox is a crock of shit?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Even in the US you will get your arse canned if you make too much
>>>>>>>> noise
>>>>>>>> about questioning the Holocaust(tm).  Many academics have found that
>>>>>>>> out -
>>>>>>>> the hard way.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Not that you can name one and prove it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You lying old turd. Butz and Finkelstein come immediately to mind.
>>>>>
>>>>> Who are Butz and Finkelsein , what academic credentials do they have 
>>>>> and
>>>>> how were they "canned" for questioning the Holocaust?
>>>>
>>>> You really are as dumb as a box of rocks, girlie.
>>>
>>>You mentioned the names Butz and Finkelsein as cases of academics being
>>>canned and you can't actually support your own claim. If you can't support
>>>your own claim don't try to attack the person asking you for the 
>>>supporting
>>>evidence. It is a dead giveaway that you are a loser.
>>
>> I know and understand what Ben is talking about, so why don't you?
>>
>
>You cant SHOW you know unless you can show whom he is talking about and how 
>it is a case of academics being canned for holocaust denial. 

Talking to you is like trying to explain calculus to a grade 3 pupil
who has just started basic addition and subtraction.

You just don't have the knowledge base to partake in any meaningful
discussion about anything here.

It isn't my assignment to educate you. Hire somebody.

>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:39:25 EDT 2009
Article: 2015156 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust "Victims" Count - What variance - Cremation data.
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
Message-ID: 
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On Fri, 1 May 2009 09:07:53 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
 wrote:

>
>"B.H. Cramer"  wrote in message 
>news:1oWdndQGSJv0v2fUnZ2dnVY3goWdnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>
>> "Mavisbeacon"  wrote in message 
>> news:1b239$49f9fd64$596480f8$16053@news.upc.ie...
>>>
>>> "Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message 
>>> news:tfkjv41ng0i1u04fj278n18vrfhac3c7dt@4ax.com...
>>>> On Thu, 30 Apr 2009 12:55:53 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
>>>>  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>"B.H. Cramer"  wrote in message
>>>>>news:46GdnSA0oK5A7mTUnZ2dnVY3goydnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Mavisbeacon"  wrote in message
>>>>>> news:4c71f$49f96963$596480f8$9879@news.upc.ie...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "B.H. Cramer"  wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:G9qdnU9faI8XoGTUnZ2dnVY3gomdnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Gord McFee"  wrote in message
>>>>>>>> news:eq2iv4hs7ehnmij0gebt3pla3u232qls8e@4ax.com...
>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 29 Apr 2009 15:20:11 +1000, in
>>>>>>>>> , "B.H. Cramer"
>>>>>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "Anonymous"  wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>> news:02df9c5c5b991ab6c90cef0560f4482d@mixmaster.nymu.eu...
>>>>>>>>>> > On Tue, 28 Apr 2009 12:22:29 +0000, Truthseeker wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> >>> I am of the opinion that you are a Holocaust denier, that you 
>>>>>>>>>> >>> know
>>>>>>>>>> >>> that
>>>>>>>>>> >>> if you openly state on an international stage that that is the
>>>>>>>>>> >>> case you
>>>>>>>>>> >>> can be arrested by international warrant
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> > I live in the USA. If I think that the holohoax is a crock of 
>>>>>>>>>> > shit
>>>>>>>>>> > and
>>>>>>>>>> > say so here, are you telling me that if I am identified today, 
>>>>>>>>>> > and
>>>>>>>>>> > visit
>>>>>>>>>> > Germany or Austria in the future, I can be arrested there for
>>>>>>>>>> > 'denying
>>>>>>>>>> > the holohoax' or whatever it is called?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Publish your thoughts along those lines and yes, you can be 
>>>>>>>>>> arrested
>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>> Germany and many other countries for dissing the Holocaust(tm).
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> > And that can happen even though it is legal in the USA to say 
>>>>>>>>>> > the
>>>>>>>>>> > holohaox is a crock of shit?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Even in the US you will get your arse canned if you make too much
>>>>>>>>>> noise
>>>>>>>>>> about questioning the Holocaust(tm).  Many academics have found 
>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>> out -
>>>>>>>>>> the hard way.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Not that you can name one and prove it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You lying old turd. Butz and Finkelstein come immediately to mind.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Who are Butz and Finkelsein , what academic credentials do they have 
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> how were they "canned" for questioning the Holocaust?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You really are as dumb as a box of rocks, girlie.
>>>>>
>>>>>You mentioned the names Butz and Finkelsein as cases of academics being
>>>>>canned and you can't actually support your own claim. If you can't 
>>>>>support
>>>>>your own claim don't try to attack the person asking you for the 
>>>>>supporting
>>>>>evidence. It is a dead giveaway that you are a loser.
>>>>
>>>> I know and understand what Ben is talking about, so why don't you?
>>>>
>>>
>>> You cant SHOW you know unless you can show whom he is talking about and 
>>> how it is a case of academics being canned for holocaust denial.
>>
>> It will take you seconds to find evidence of Butz and Finkelstein's 
>> destruction,
>
>Then why can't you supply it since you claim it and you say the evidence is 
>there?
>You claim ity why should I have to do your work for you? especially if it is 
>untrue?
>
>> It is common knowledge among those with even a modicum of intelligence.
>
>It will take you seconds to find evidence of the Holocaust .

It will take seconds for find holocaust fables and holocaust
propaganda. It is all over the place.

>It is common 
>knowledge to anyone intelligent or not (so you can count yourself in there). 
>But bigots like you apply double standards to that as well don't you?
>
>Where is the evidence to support your claims about lots of academics being 
>canned? 

Christ all fucking mighty, Mavis, read a few books or newspapers.

>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:39:26 EDT 2009
Article: 2015157 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust "Victims" Count - What variance - Cremation data.
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
Message-ID: 
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On Fri, 1 May 2009 08:11:45 +1000, "B.H. Cramer"
 wrote:

>
>"Mavisbeacon"  wrote in message 
>news:b1a69$49f99dd4$596480f8$22128@news.upc.ie...
>>
>> "B.H. Cramer"  wrote in message 
>> news:46GdnSA0oK5A7mTUnZ2dnVY3goydnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>
>>> "Mavisbeacon"  wrote in message 
>>> news:4c71f$49f96963$596480f8$9879@news.upc.ie...
>>>>
>>>> "B.H. Cramer"  wrote in message 
>>>> news:G9qdnU9faI8XoGTUnZ2dnVY3gomdnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>>>
>>>>> "Gord McFee"  wrote in message 
>>>>> news:eq2iv4hs7ehnmij0gebt3pla3u232qls8e@4ax.com...
>>>>>> On Wed, 29 Apr 2009 15:20:11 +1000, in
>>>>>> , "B.H. Cramer"
>>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Anonymous"  wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:02df9c5c5b991ab6c90cef0560f4482d@mixmaster.nymu.eu...
>>>>>>> > On Tue, 28 Apr 2009 12:22:29 +0000, Truthseeker wrote:
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> >>> I am of the opinion that you are a Holocaust denier, that you 
>>>>>>> >>> know that
>>>>>>> >>> if you openly state on an international stage that that is the 
>>>>>>> >>> case you
>>>>>>> >>> can be arrested by international warrant
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > I live in the USA. If I think that the holohoax is a crock of shit 
>>>>>>> > and
>>>>>>> > say so here, are you telling me that if I am identified today, and 
>>>>>>> > visit
>>>>>>> > Germany or Austria in the future, I can be arrested there for 
>>>>>>> > 'denying
>>>>>>> > the holohoax' or whatever it is called?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Publish your thoughts along those lines and yes, you can be arrested 
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>> Germany and many other countries for dissing the Holocaust(tm).
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > And that can happen even though it is legal in the USA to say the
>>>>>>> > holohaox is a crock of shit?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Even in the US you will get your arse canned if you make too much 
>>>>>>> noise
>>>>>>> about questioning the Holocaust(tm).  Many academics have found that 
>>>>>>> out -
>>>>>>> the hard way.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not that you can name one and prove it.
>>>>>
>>>>> You lying old turd. Butz and Finkelstein come immediately to mind.
>>>>
>>>> Who are Butz and Finkelsein , what academic credentials do they have and 
>>>> how were they "canned" for questioning the Holocaust?
>>>
>>> You really are as dumb as a box of rocks, girlie.
>>
>> You mentioned the names Butz and Finkelsein as cases of academics being 
>> canned and you can't actually support your own claim.
>
>What the fuck are you blathering about? 

She probably would have difficulty distinguishing her arse from a hole
in the wall. I figure that interactions with her are a waste of time.
She just doesn't know anything about the subject at hand.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:39:26 EDT 2009
Article: 2015158 of alt.revisionism
Path: border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-in-01.newsfeed.easynews.com!easynews!core-easynews-01!easynews.com!en-nntp-02.dc1.easynews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust "Victims" Count - What variance - Cremation data.
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
Message-ID: 
References: <9yCJl.24611$Db2.22407@edtnps83> <02df9c5c5b991ab6c90cef0560f4482d@mixmaster.nymu.eu>    <4c71f$49f96963$596480f8$9879@news.upc.ie>  <1cdf0$49f9fd65$596480f8$16053@news.upc.ie>
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On Thu, 30 Apr 2009 20:09:58 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
 wrote:

>
>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message 
>news:udkjv4l78l1i1mdqihuimn5rbquc7d3s4b@4ax.com...
>> On Thu, 30 Apr 2009 08:58:48 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
>>  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"B.H. Cramer"  wrote in message
>>>news:G9qdnU9faI8XoGTUnZ2dnVY3gomdnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>>
>>>> "Gord McFee"  wrote in message
>>>> news:eq2iv4hs7ehnmij0gebt3pla3u232qls8e@4ax.com...
>>>>> On Wed, 29 Apr 2009 15:20:11 +1000, in
>>>>> , "B.H. Cramer"
>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> "Anonymous"  wrote in message
>>>>>> news:02df9c5c5b991ab6c90cef0560f4482d@mixmaster.nymu.eu...
>>>>>> > On Tue, 28 Apr 2009 12:22:29 +0000, Truthseeker wrote:
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >>> I am of the opinion that you are a Holocaust denier, that you know
>>>>>> >>> that
>>>>>> >>> if you openly state on an international stage that that is the 
>>>>>> >>> case
>>>>>> >>> you
>>>>>> >>> can be arrested by international warrant
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > I live in the USA. If I think that the holohoax is a crock of shit 
>>>>>> > and
>>>>>> > say so here, are you telling me that if I am identified today, and
>>>>>> > visit
>>>>>> > Germany or Austria in the future, I can be arrested there for 
>>>>>> > 'denying
>>>>>> > the holohoax' or whatever it is called?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Publish your thoughts along those lines and yes, you can be arrested 
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> Germany and many other countries for dissing the Holocaust(tm).
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > And that can happen even though it is legal in the USA to say the
>>>>>> > holohaox is a crock of shit?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Even in the US you will get your arse canned if you make too much 
>>>>>> noise
>>>>>> about questioning the Holocaust(tm).  Many academics have found that
>>>>>> out -
>>>>>> the hard way.
>>>>>
>>>>> Not that you can name one and prove it.
>>>>
>>>> You lying old turd. Butz and Finkelstein come immediately to mind.
>>>
>>>Who are Butz and Finkelsein
>>
>> Holy fucking Moly, woman, do some research. Why are you wasting our
>> time?
>
>
>Why don't you do some research and look up the phrase "burden of evidence"?
>I didn't make the claim.
>If YOU make a claim then YOU supply the evidence.

Nobody is making a "claim". The trials and tribulations of both Butz
and Finkelstein have been widely reported in all manner of different
media. Your ignorance isn't either my problem or Ben's.


>
>What can I expect next? Are you going to claim Unicorns got canned for 
>Holocaust denial and then when I ask you to show evidence of Unicorns you 
>try the "do your own research" to support your empty claim?
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:39:26 EDT 2009
Article: 2015159 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust "Victims" Count - What variance - Cremation data.
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
Message-ID: 
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On Fri, 1 May 2009 09:12:23 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
 wrote:

>
>"B.H. Cramer"  wrote in message 
>news:IqydndxifJbHuWfUnZ2dnVY3gomdnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>
>[snip]
>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Even in the US you will get your arse canned if you make too much 
>>>>>>>> noise
>>>>>>>> about questioning the Holocaust(tm).  Many academics have found that
>>>>>>>> out -
>>>>>>>> the hard way.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Not that you can name one and prove it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You lying old turd. Butz and Finkelstein come immediately to mind.
>>>>>
>>>>>Who are Butz and Finkelsein
>>>>
>>>> Holy fucking Moly, woman, do some research. Why are you wasting our
>>>> time?
>>>
>>>
>>> Why don't you do some research and look up the phrase "burden of 
>>> evidence"?
>>
>> Why don't you ever support your
> > shite with evidence, twat.
>
>I do -
>http://www.geocities.com/xenu_rules/misc-burden-of-proof.html
>http://education.gsu.edu/spehar/FOCUS/EdPsy/misc/Fallacies.htm
>http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/burden-of-proof.html
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance#Burden_of_proof
>http://www.zionism-israel.com/Fallacies/burden-of-proof.html
>http://www.sjsu.edu/depts/itl/graphics/adhom/burden.html 
>
Nizkor's propaganda offerings don't quite make it as "evidence" of
anything except that the holocaust™ industry has a lot of money at its
disposal.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:39:27 EDT 2009
Article: 2015160 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust "Victims" Count - What variance - Cremation data.
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
Message-ID: 
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On Fri, 1 May 2009 08:20:35 +1000, "B.H. Cramer"
 wrote:

>
>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message 
>news:udkjv4l78l1i1mdqihuimn5rbquc7d3s4b@4ax.com...
>> On Thu, 30 Apr 2009 08:58:48 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
>>  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"B.H. Cramer"  wrote in message
>>>news:G9qdnU9faI8XoGTUnZ2dnVY3gomdnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>>
>>>> "Gord McFee"  wrote in message
>>>> news:eq2iv4hs7ehnmij0gebt3pla3u232qls8e@4ax.com...
>>>>> On Wed, 29 Apr 2009 15:20:11 +1000, in
>>>>> , "B.H. Cramer"
>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> "Anonymous"  wrote in message
>>>>>> news:02df9c5c5b991ab6c90cef0560f4482d@mixmaster.nymu.eu...
>>>>>> > On Tue, 28 Apr 2009 12:22:29 +0000, Truthseeker wrote:
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >>> I am of the opinion that you are a Holocaust denier, that you know
>>>>>> >>> that
>>>>>> >>> if you openly state on an international stage that that is the 
>>>>>> >>> case
>>>>>> >>> you
>>>>>> >>> can be arrested by international warrant
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > I live in the USA. If I think that the holohoax is a crock of shit 
>>>>>> > and
>>>>>> > say so here, are you telling me that if I am identified today, and
>>>>>> > visit
>>>>>> > Germany or Austria in the future, I can be arrested there for 
>>>>>> > 'denying
>>>>>> > the holohoax' or whatever it is called?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Publish your thoughts along those lines and yes, you can be arrested 
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> Germany and many other countries for dissing the Holocaust(tm).
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > And that can happen even though it is legal in the USA to say the
>>>>>> > holohaox is a crock of shit?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Even in the US you will get your arse canned if you make too much 
>>>>>> noise
>>>>>> about questioning the Holocaust(tm).  Many academics have found that
>>>>>> out -
>>>>>> the hard way.
>>>>>
>>>>> Not that you can name one and prove it.
>>>>
>>>> You lying old turd. Butz and Finkelstein come immediately to mind.
>>>
>>>Who are Butz and Finkelsein
>>
>> Holy fucking Moly, woman, do some research. Why are you wasting our
>> time?
>
>Dumb as a box of rocks - yes?

I'm almost at the point of simply ignoring further posts by this
cretin. She is both ignorant and illogical. There is simply no basis
on which to talk to her.

>
>
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>, what academic credentials do they have and how
>>>were they "canned" for questioning the Holocaust?
>>>
>> 


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:39:27 EDT 2009
Article: 2015161 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust "Victims" Count - What variance - Cremation data.
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
Message-ID: 
References:  <88fd0006-6851-4aa4-ac9e-46eeeb8b5d81@y7g2000yqa.googlegroups.com>  <76df6ae2-83f5-4f39-bec9-a4eb2e4c46ea@w31g2000prd.googlegroups.com>    <7jkjv4duimj26p15g7fdn1o5c2i0ukkbgl@4ax.com> 
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On Fri, 1 May 2009 08:25:49 +1000, "B.H. Cramer"
 wrote:

>
>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message 
>news:7jkjv4duimj26p15g7fdn1o5c2i0ukkbgl@4ax.com...
>> On Thu, 30 Apr 2009 15:57:56 +1000, "B.H. Cramer"
>>  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Gord McFee"  wrote in message
>>>news:mr2iv49bmkbs4qm2osgja2ionq9v28sj78@4ax.com...
>>>> On Wed, 29 Apr 2009 15:18:32 +1000, in
>>>> , "B.H. Cramer"
>>>>  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>  wrote in message
>>>>> news:76df6ae2-83f5-4f39-bec9-a4eb2e4c46ea@w31g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
>>>>> > On Apr 24, 11:31 am, "B.H. Cramer"  
>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>> >>  wrote in message
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> news:88fd0006-6851-4aa4-ac9e-46eeeb8b5d81@y7g2000yqa.googlegroups.com...
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> > On Apr 23, 11:48 am, "B.H. Cramer" 
>>>>> >> > wrote:
>>>>> >> >>  wrote in message
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> >>news:c78c521a-b753-4188-a6fa-b18bef2003a0@g1g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> >> > On Apr 4, 2:17 am, Anonymous 
>>>>> >> >> > wrote:
>>>>> >> >> >> The biggest victims of the 'holocaust' are the German people,
>>>>> >> >> >> saddled
>>>>> >> >> >> with reparations to worthless kikes.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> >> >> The second biggest victim is the idea of historical truth and
>>>>> >> >> >> academic
>>>>> >> >> >> integrity.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> >> > The Germans screwed everyone in occupied Europe and planned to
>>>>> >> >> > convert....
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> >> Oh god. Another knob who has only read yid history.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> > I also note B H Cramer does not give a profile - does not mean he 
>>>>> >> > is
>>>>> >> > guilty of anything but we do not know how he gets to his denials 
>>>>> >> > or
>>>>> >> > why.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Denial of what? Elaborate please.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > I am of the opinion that you are a Holocaust denier,
>>>>>
>>>>> I really don't give a flying fuck what your opinion is, sunschein.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't believe the yid version of the Holocaust(tm).
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm in good company, actually, given there are only a few million of 
>>>>> you
>>>>> clowns in the world.
>>>>
>>>> There are only a few dozen of you morons.
>>>
>>>Keep thinking that, gourd. It's that type of chutzpah, jingoism and
>>>braggadocio that got the yids' arses handed to them on a platter in 2006.
>>>
>> Poor mcfee seems to be into self-deception. If their were only a few
>> dozen holocaust heretics, nobody would pay them any attention. The
>> shrill hysteria characteristic of mcfee/mcvay/RJ11/... suggests the
>> opposite. Their name-calling, threats, and general hysteria are a
>> desperate attempt to keep the sinking ship afloat.
>>
>> The gas chamber story has retreated from all of Germany in 1945 to a
>> small cluster of camps in present-day Poland, and even there the story
>> is on very thin ice.
>
>Too right. If it wasn't for the US yids, this Holocaust(tm) thing would 
>never have got airplay. Even Encyclopaedia Britannica didn't make mention of 
>it until the early/mid 1960s.
>
>The whole thing is a carefully choreographed creation of the hebes.

It is also interesting to note that a number of the key players of WW2
don't waste a single word on it in their memoirs.

Churchill
Eisenhower
Montgomery
de Gaulle
and numerous others all wrote BIG autobiographies and memoirs of their
experiences, and none found the holocaust™ important enough to
mention.

>
>
>> 


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:39:27 EDT 2009
Article: 2015162 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: They own you, lock stock and barrel
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
Message-ID: <73ulv4199p42u3o5g6i218peg21umvefo7@4ax.com>
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On Thu, 30 Apr 2009 13:46:16 -0700 (PDT), "Bent Attorney Esq."
 wrote:

>On Apr 30, 1:24 pm, Johannes von Ebersdorf 
>wrote:
>> On Wed, 29 Apr 2009 17:31:45 -0700 (PDT), "Bent Attorney Esq."
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  wrote:
>> >'They' allow you to work provided you have a number.  'They' allow you
>> >a state sanctioned drug for recreational purposes.  'They' allow you
>> >to gamble at certain state approved games only.  'They' allow you a
>> >certain amount of pain killer when you are in cancerous pain.  'They'
>> >allow you to build as long as you ask permission and pay the juice.
>> >'They' do not allow you to have a smoke house in your back yard if you
>> >live in cities.  This is because smoke houses are a fire hazard even
>> >though in your neck of the woods, a fire was never started because of
>> >a smoke house gone out of control.
>> >'They' do not allow you to self medicate.  That's because you are
>> >stupid and would purchase anti-hypertension drugs when you have a
>> >tummy ache.  'They' expect and insist that you go along quietly when
>> >you are arrested for slapping some jerk who pushed you.  'They' can
>> >perform a strip search on you.  Your penis, vagina and asshole are
>> >their property.  Here in Ontario, 'they' do not allow you to see
>> >cigarettes in a shop.  'They' have ensured that the smokes are
>> >hidden.  This will cure smoking addiction.  So 'they' say.  'They'
>> >allow you a certain amount of paid holidays per year.
>> >Here in Ontario, our wonderful Premier gave us an additional holiday
>> >in February.  It's called 'Family day.'  I don't like it, but have to
>> >put up with it.  He gave us this holiday in order to thank us for
>> >voting his thieving ass back into power.
>>
>> Actually, when it comes to "thieving asses", nobody can touch the
>> Harrisites. Our current premier is an absolute saint by comparison.
>
>You're right there.  Harris did much damage to Ontario.

I always find it amusing when the present-day Ontario Tories whine
that the current government is being too slow at repairing the damage
that previous Tory regimes have caused.



From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:39:28 EDT 2009
Article: 2015163 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: attack on dutch royals twarted
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
Message-ID: 
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On Fri, 1 May 2009 19:36:23 +1200, "PB1952" 
wrote:

>"Heinrich"  wrote in message 
>news:75vigaF1al9f3U1@mid.individual.net...
>>
>>  schreef in bericht 
>> news:ca15c742-8f20-49a5-a780-4e485661a2a2@z8g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
>>> On 30 Apr, 15:06, "Heinrich"  wrote:
>>>> "PB1952"  schreef in 
>>>> berichtnews:gtc936$6nq$1@news.eternal-september.org...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> > "Heinrich"  wrote in message
>>>> >news:75tk09F1a2lhjU1@mid.individual.net...
>>>>
>>>> >> "PB1952"  schreef in bericht
>>>> >>news:gtc3vg$v7p$1@news.eternal-september.org...
>>>> >>> "Heinrich"  wrote in message
>>>> >>>news:75thr1F1812uiU1@mid.individual.net...
>>>> >>>> see pict6uyres and video at this link
>>>>
>>>> >>>> so far 2 dead and 17 seriously injured
>>>>
>>>> >>>>http://www.telegraaf.nl/
>>>>
>>>> >>> An anti-royalist, an old person who lost control of their car or a
>>>> >>> Moroccan on a mission for Allah?
>>>>
>>>> >>> --
>>>> >>> PB1...@gmail.com
>>>>
>>>> >> the car was a black suzuki and it would not surprise me if it was a
>>>> >> moroccan because they are really a pain in the ARSE.
>>>>
>>>> > 4 dead on a day of fun and celebration. How sad.
>>>> > Condolences to the Dutch.
>>>>
>>>> > The Dutch online community has traced the license plate of the driver 
>>>> > and
>>>> > named a Dutch national, aged 38.
>>>>
>>>> > --
>>>> > PB1...@gmail.com
>>>>
>>>> yes that is correct it has been confirmed on the pressconference. it is 
>>>> a
>>>> native born dutchman with no relations to terrorist groups nor does he 
>>>> has a
>>>> recordfor mental illnis- Hide quoted text -
>>>>
>>>
>>> EVEN IF THE DUTCH DID IT HE GIVE THE REASON TO THE ARABS FOR
>>> MASTURBATION THE DUTCH WHO MOURN THE ARABS WHO ENJOY!
>>
>> THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ARABS MY FRIEND, IT WAS A 38 YEAR OLD NATIVE 
>> DUCTCH WHO WENT CRAZY BECAUSE HE WAS RECENTLY FIRED AND COULD NO LONGER 
>> PAY THE RENTE FOR HIS HOUSE
>
>
>How on earth would this act help pay the rent?
>He'll be getting a rent free prison cell.
>Is he conscious now?-- 
>PB1952@gmail.com 
>
He died of his injuries.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:39:30 EDT 2009
Article: 2015998 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "Smith" and the Auschwitz camp complex. 13 reasons to not swallow the HOAX.
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
Message-ID: 
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On Fri, 1 May 2009 13:11:23 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
 wrote:

>
>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message 
>news:8pnlv4dafhq0vlco145avvjt0o16ui7a44@4ax.com...
>> On Thu, 30 Apr 2009 20:40:44 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
>>  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message
>>>news:hvjjv4tca7d4pu4jaiuslksahecnr1hgtq@4ax.com...
>>>> On Wed, 29 Apr 2009 13:10:27 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
>>>>  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>; "please"  wrote in message
>>>>>news:gt6bse$fem$1@pcls4.std.com...
>>>>>> In article ,
>>>>>> B.H. Cramer  wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There are photos of everything else from WWII,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There is not one single photo of Soviet soldiers either
>>>>>> "killing" or "raping" German civilians.  None.  Zero.
>>>>>> Zilch.  Nada.  Nothing.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Or of Jesus or Socrates or Alexander the Great!
>>>>>
>>>> LOL, Mavis, you don't suppose that part of the reason for that was
>>>> that photography wasn't invented until the middle of the 19th century,
>>>
>>>I am well aware of anachronisms. You seem to have missed the point 
>>>entirely.
>>>Historical anachronisms necessitate an absence of evidence of that type.
>>>This absence of evidence is not evidence of absence of the events or 
>>>people
>>>mentioned!
>>>
>>>
>>>> well before the time of Jesus, Socrates, or Alexander. Of these three,
>>>> only Socrates and Alexander have independent verification of their
>>>> existence.
>>>
>>>But while you demand certain rules for evidence for Jesus in history you
>>>have DIFFERENT rules for Alexander or Socrates! and even then you have yet
>>>to produce a single historical reference form even 150 years after 
>>>Alexander
>>>or Socrates let alone during their life. How do you know Socrates for
>>>example was not invented by Plato?
>>
>> Your abysmal ignorance of classical antiquity isn't my problem.
>
>But YES IT IS!
>
>You are the one saying that you have evidence for alexander from the Time of 
>alexander and that it is commonplace. But you have not produced any while at 
>the same time asking me to produce evidence contemporary to Jesus from 
>outside the New Testament. I did that! You didnt do it for Alexander or 
>Socrates!
>
>> There
>> are all manner of pieces of evidence out there that testify to the
>> physical existence of both Plato and Alexander the Great.
>
>Really? Can you produce a single contemporary doccument by socrates or by 
>someone else when they were alive about Socrates or alexander? I' ll bet you 
>cant! In spite of "all manner" of evidence you havent a single contemporary 
>doccument. Yet you expect to apply these rules to Jesus' existance in 
>history?
>
>>
>> Jesus Christ, on the other hand, is RELIGION, translated as ignorance,
>> superstition, fables, myths, and faith.
>
>WRONG! The historicity of Jesus and the alleged divinlty of Jesus are two 
>DIFFERENT issues.

This is true. You need to show that the guy existed in any form before
you can start on the "Jesus is god incarnate" hypothesis. 

>You are aware Alexander the Great was regarded as a god too? Does that mean 
>that because such fables of alexander being super natural existed that you 
>can conclude alexander never existed?

I don't believe that Alexander was a "god", other than in the minds of
his subjects.

> Why do you apply DIFFERENT STANDARDS 
>to the historicity of Jesus that you apply to alexander?

Nobody outside of Christian cult circles had heard of Christ, at least
not until the cult became big business. Lots of people knew of
Alexander, especially the King of Persia who kept suffering defeats at
his hands.

>
>> ALL human religions have the same validity, which is to say "not
>> much".
>
>Which has NOTHING to do with you being WRONG about your claim for no 
>historical evidence for Jesus outside of the New Testament!

Evidence for Jesus is all within the cult. There is nothing outside
the cult that can't be demolished in a few seconds.

>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:39:30 EDT 2009
Article: 2016000 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Why Gun Confiscation In America Is A Bad Idea
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
Message-ID: 
References: <2ZidnfbLgdbpKWvUnZ2dnVY3goWdnZ2d@giganews.com>  <14CdnQWOHtNDeGrUnZ2dnVY3go-dnZ2d@giganews.com>       
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On Sun, 3 May 2009 00:05:19 +1000, "B.H. Cramer"
 wrote:

>
>"Gord McFee"  wrote in message 
>news:l6kov4dka3c2sak6qrciggp09abcqagje2@4ax.com...
>> On Fri, 01 May 2009 08:45:30 -0400, in
>> , Johannes von Ebersdorf
>>  wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, 1 May 2009 08:04:22 +1000, "B.H. Cramer"
>>>  wrote:
>>>
>>> >"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message
>>> >news:qdjjv49t0tts0i4jkga23qg2ld1jgf9mvh@4ax.com...
>>> >> On Thu, 30 Apr 2009 16:02:55 +1000, "B.H. Cramer"
>>> >>  wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>"Gord McFee"  wrote in message
>>> >>>news:jA7Kl.238816$UR4.55594@en-nntp-09.dc1.easynews.com...
>>> >>>> On 4/29/2009 1:30 AM, B.H. Cramer wrote:
>>> >>>>> "Gord McFee"  wrote in message
>>> >>>>> news:ifdfv4pf4pnjhn0qdqtg150sva8g90vcum@4ax.com...
>>> >>>>>> On Tue, 28 Apr 2009 17:46:56 +1000, in
>>> >>>>>> <2ZidnfbLgdbpKWvUnZ2dnVY3goWdnZ2d@giganews.com>, "B.H. Cramer"
>>> >>>>>>  wrote:
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>> "Gord McFee"  wrote in message
>>> >>>>>>> news:kllcv4hc8ob7moit5asj7nuhlkrp08gqfq@4ax.com...
>>> >>>>>>>> On Mon, 27 Apr 2009 21:09:57 +1000, in
>>> >>>>>>>> , "B.H. Cramer"
>>> >>>>>>>>  wrote:
>>> >>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>> "Gord McFee"  wrote in message
>>> >>>>>>>>> news:2p69v4lp93oda5d3um74qpeeb72hg6fk5q@4ax.com...
>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 26 Apr 2009 05:58:07 -0700, in
>>> >>>>>>>>>> <3hm8v4lqp2ll2rekc18fnf5a383eue2cqm@4ax.com>, Klaus
>>> >>>>>>>>>> Schadenfreude  wrote:
>>> >>>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>>>> In talk.politics.guns Tim Miller
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>  wrote:
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> B.H. Cramer wrote:
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> "Klaus Schadenfreude" 
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote in message
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> news:5is6v416ktfu2dkdgqbunkdig3o5qd6pth@4ax.com...
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> In talk.politics.guns Topaz 
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by Kevin MacDonald
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The current situation in the United States is
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> really an awesome display of Jewish power and
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> influence.
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ____ "Let's see: The Jews control the world. The
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nazis are illiterate, unemployable pedophiles. Hmmm, whom 
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> do
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> *I*
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> want to throw in my lot with...?"
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>  -Chris Morton, August 2001
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> He's a coon, ferfuckssake.
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> So, basically, EVERYONE kicks your girlie ass?
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> LOL!!
>>> >>>>>>>>>>> He's afraid of a coon? I think the nazi-wannabe club
>>> >>>>>>>>>>> needs a new spokesman!
>>> >>>>>>>>>> They are afraid of their shadows.
>>> >>>>>>>>> Coons are ALL shadow. They scare themselves silly.
>>> >>>>>>>> Ben has never met an insulting comment he didn't like.
>>> >>>>>>> What insult? Where?
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> You are quite simply revolting.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> Oh dear. An insult from the wee tooler complaining of another's
>>> >>>>> insulting behaviour.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> I can see why you and Ebersdorf get along so well.  He is a traitor 
>>> >>>> to
>>> >>>> his people and a coward and you are an antisemite, a racist and a
>>> >>>> coward.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>Anti-semite - I don't think I am but the yids have so labelled me - 
>>> >>>I'll
>>> >>>wear it with pride
>>> >>>Racist - Bullshit.
>>> >>>Coward - Bullshit.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>I see you as a traitor to Canada and the white race. I see you as a 
>>> >>>craven
>>> >>>coward. I also see you as a being racist, given you're more than happy 
>>> >>>to
>>> >>>support the ethnocentric, racist yids in everything they say and do.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>You're also a hypocrite and a teller/creator of porkies.
>>> >>
>>> >> LOL
>>> >>
>>> >> There seems to be no end to mcfee's stupidity.
>>> >
>>> >He's not stupid in the intellectual sense, but he's stupid to think he's 
>>> >on
>>> >the side of right.
>>>
>>> Self-deception would have been a better term than stupidity. McFee
>>> simply seems to uncritically accept everything anti-German nonsense he
>>> is told, something along the lines of that schadenfreude creep.
>>
>> What is that stench?  Oh, it is the coward Skaliks kissing Cramer's
>> ass.
>
>Shut up, gourd, you hate filled old twerp.
>
That certainly sums up poor pathetic gourd.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:39:31 EDT 2009
Article: 2016002 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Why Gun Confiscation In America Is A Bad Idea
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
Message-ID: 
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On Sun, 3 May 2009 00:07:35 +1000, "B.H. Cramer"
 wrote:

>
>"Gord McFee"  wrote in message 
>news:g9kov4tdf1kkoosi1266lqvqpgp1qtp389@4ax.com...
>> On Fri, 1 May 2009 12:48:50 +1000, in
>> <9tSdne5KTsaB_mfUnZ2dnVY3goSdnZ2d@giganews.com>, "B.H. Cramer"
>>  wrote:
>>
>>> "Gord McFee"  wrote in message
>>> news:88nkv4h7isq6diopm659hdsflnohvttdff@4ax.com...
>>> > On Thu, 30 Apr 2009 16:02:55 +1000, in
>>> > , "B.H. Cramer"
>>> >  wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> "Gord McFee"  wrote in message
>>> >> news:jA7Kl.238816$UR4.55594@en-nntp-09.dc1.easynews.com...
>>> >> > On 4/29/2009 1:30 AM, B.H. Cramer wrote:
>>> >> >> "Gord McFee"  wrote in message
>>> >> >> news:ifdfv4pf4pnjhn0qdqtg150sva8g90vcum@4ax.com...
>>> >> >>> On Tue, 28 Apr 2009 17:46:56 +1000, in
>>> >> >>> <2ZidnfbLgdbpKWvUnZ2dnVY3goWdnZ2d@giganews.com>, "B.H. Cramer"
>>> >> >>>  wrote:
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>>> "Gord McFee"  wrote in message
>>> >> >>>> news:kllcv4hc8ob7moit5asj7nuhlkrp08gqfq@4ax.com...
>>> >> >>>>> On Mon, 27 Apr 2009 21:09:57 +1000, in
>>> >> >>>>> , "B.H. Cramer"
>>> >> >>>>>  wrote:
>>> >> >>>>>
>>> >> >>>>>> "Gord McFee"  wrote in message
>>> >> >>>>>> news:2p69v4lp93oda5d3um74qpeeb72hg6fk5q@4ax.com...
>>> >> >>>>>>> On Sun, 26 Apr 2009 05:58:07 -0700, in
>>> >> >>>>>>> <3hm8v4lqp2ll2rekc18fnf5a383eue2cqm@4ax.com>, Klaus
>>> >> >>>>>>> Schadenfreude  wrote:
>>> >> >>>>>>>
>>> >> >>>>>>>> In talk.politics.guns Tim Miller
>>> >> >>>>>>>>  wrote:
>>> >> >>>>>>>>
>>> >> >>>>>>>>> B.H. Cramer wrote:
>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> "Klaus Schadenfreude" 
>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> wrote in message
>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> news:5is6v416ktfu2dkdgqbunkdig3o5qd6pth@4ax.com...
>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> In talk.politics.guns Topaz 
>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>
>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> by Kevin MacDonald
>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> The current situation in the United States is
>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> really an awesome display of Jewish power and
>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> influence.
>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> ____ "Let's see: The Jews control the world. The
>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> Nazis are illiterate, unemployable pedophiles. Hmmm, whom 
>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> do
>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> *I*
>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> want to throw in my lot with...?"
>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>  -Chris Morton, August 2001
>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> He's a coon, ferfuckssake.
>>> >> >>>>>>>>> So, basically, EVERYONE kicks your girlie ass?
>>> >> >>>>>>>>>
>>> >> >>>>>>>>> LOL!!
>>> >> >>>>>>>> He's afraid of a coon? I think the nazi-wannabe club
>>> >> >>>>>>>> needs a new spokesman!
>>> >> >>>>>>> They are afraid of their shadows.
>>> >> >>>>>> Coons are ALL shadow. They scare themselves silly.
>>> >> >>>>> Ben has never met an insulting comment he didn't like.
>>> >> >>>> What insult? Where?
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> You are quite simply revolting.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> Oh dear. An insult from the wee tooler complaining of another's
>>> >> >> insulting behaviour.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > I can see why you and Ebersdorf get along so well.  He is a traitor 
>>> >> > to
>>> >> > his people and a coward and you are an antisemite, a racist and a
>>> >> > coward.
>>> >>
>>> >> Anti-semite - I don't think I am but the yids have so labelled me - 
>>> >> I'll
>>> >> wear it with pride
>>> >
>>> > You just proved it.  The Führer would be proud.
>>>
>>> Pretty thin "proof" old feller, but then - you are a Holocaust(tm) 
>>> promoter.
>>
>> *You* provided it.  One of your rare moments of telling the truth.
>
>Rare my arse. Truth is all that interests me ferchrissake.
>>
>>> >> Racist - Bullshit.
>>> >
>>> > "Coons are ALL shadow", says Ben Cramer.  QED.
>>>
>>> QED yourself, sunschein.
>>
>> Admission via sneer noted.
>
>No admission. No sneer. Lies from your end though.
>>
>>> >> Coward - Bullshit.
>>> >
>>> > You cut, you snip, you run away.  You are a coward.
>>>
>>> Nope. You accuse me of running. I don't.
>>
>> You do.  Just like your butt-buddy Skaliks.  You all run; it is a
>> requirement to be a denier trashie.
>
>More lies, delusion and sheer desperation. It's you twerps who are the 
>deniers laddie. You, who disallow critical examination of the Holocaust(tm).
>
>>
>>> >> I see you as a traitor to Canada and the white race. I see you as a
>>> >> craven
>>> >> coward. I also see you as a being racist, given you're more than happy 
>>> >> to
>>> >> support the ethnocentric, racist yids in everything they say and do.
>>> >
>>> > Heavens, poor Ben is quite annoyed.  Of course, he can't prove a
>>> > single one of his lies.
>>>
>>> I don't need to. You do it with your own posts.
>>
>> Evasion noted.  I provide proof; Ben provides lies.
>
>You provide nothing but the usual yid scripted, yid sanctioned shite.

LOL

Poor gourd is showing his desperation. He seems to have trotted out
the old skaliks drum again, despite having gotten no mileage with it
previously, he clearly has irrational faith that this dead horse will
yet get up and do some work for him.

>
>
>>
>> [...]
>>
>> -- 
>> Gord McFee
>> I'll write no line before its time
>>
>> Visit the Holocaust History Project
>> http://www.holocaust-history.org 


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:39:31 EDT 2009
Article: 2016005 of alt.revisionism
Path: border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-in-01.newsfeed.easynews.com!easynews!core-easynews-01!easynews.com!en-nntp-07.dc1.easynews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jesus tried to warn us about the Jews -"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lust of your father ye will do."
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
Message-ID: 
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On Fri, 1 May 2009 17:24:23 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
 wrote:

>
>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message 
>news:p9slv4hesjk0q4hgqomqsb1iqvurcihf8c@4ax.com...
>> On Thu, 30 Apr 2009 20:22:32 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
>>  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message
>>>news:l5kjv41stq52bo75s13g7crbr0uqqeqhpl@4ax.com...
>>>> On Wed, 29 Apr 2009 09:35:26 +0100, MavisBeacon
>>>>  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Johannes von Ebersdorf wrote:
>>>>>> On Tue, 28 Apr 2009 02:38:57 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
>>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Mavisbeacon"  wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:26ad5$49f59a2b$596480f8$9758@news.upc.ie...
>>>>>>>> "Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message
>>>>>>>> news:ftk9v4pvi7c33reejkug2gql8snht54uqt@4ax.com...
>>>>>>>>> I repeat, there is no record of Christ's existence anywhere except
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> New Testament. If you find some, you will become world famous
>>>>>>>>> overnight.
>>>>>>> WELL?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Now that you were shown it what have you to say?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> You haven't shown me anything worth squat.
>>>>>
>>>>>REally? Then why don't you go through the actual evidence I supplied you
>>>>>with and show how non Christian historians writing in the latter part of
>>>>>the first and early second century are not "contemporary" to Jesus who
>>>>>was executed in about 40 AD?
>>>>>
>>>>>>Church babble
>>>>>
>>>>>The evidence I supplied you with includes Roman (i.e. the Roman empire
>>>>>and NOT the Roman Catholic Church) and non christian and non Roman
>>>>>Catholic Church sources. All OUTSIDE OF THE NEW TESTAMENT!
>>>>>Your claim was "there is no record of Christ's existence anywhere except
>>>>>the New Testament."
>>>>>
>>>>>Your claim was wrong!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> >centuries
>>>>>> after the fact doesn't cut it.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>In addition to the above contemporary evidence you have also been given
>>>>>references ranging in history. I have asked you whether you can produce
>>>>>any writings contemporary to alaxender the great or socrates. You have
>>>>>utterlly FAILED to do so! By your reasoning alexander or Socrates never
>>>>>existed!
>>>>
>>>> Nonsense. Both Socrates and Alexander have huge personal
>>>> accomplishments that persisted for centuries after their deaths.
>>>
>>>LOL! And christianity didn't? LOL!
>>
>> Christianity
>
>in your unsupported opinion

The horrible world we now live in is the work of the Church of Rome.
There is a reason that Baptists refer to the Church of Rome as "the
mother of whores and of every evil on earth".

>
>> is just another silly human religion among hundreds.
>
>Which built things all over the world - huge accomplishments which are still 
>around today!
>
>>The
>> Church of Rome held back civilization for centuries with its ignorance
>> and superstition.
>
>The Church in the monatrries of the UK and Ireland PRESERVED all the 
>knowledge of the ancient world. 

Roman priests tended to destroy all the evidence of antiquity they
could lay their grubby hands on. Most of the writings of antiquity
still in existence were preserved by Islam and various other religions
of the Middle East.

>You know? All these writings you suggest you 
>can produce about Alexander? LOL! What a fool you are making of yourself!

I'm not the fool, Mavis. You are the one pushing RC superstitions as
"facts".

>
>
>>>
>>>Look. wher is your writings from the time of alexander or writings by
>>>Socrates?
>>>You haven't produced ANY evidence!
>>
>> It isn't my job to educate you, Mavis.
>
>But If you cant produce anything then you ave DOUBLE STANDARDS. You claim 
>about Alexcander and Socrates but have not provided even ONE piece of 
>evidence!
>
>>The evidence exists by the
>> tonne in any larger library.
>
>But you havent provided a microgramme of this so called evidence from the 
>time of alexandr and Socrates! And you wont! Because it does not exist!  I 
>doubt you can produce any writings fromn the time of alexander mentioning 
>him. The best anyone can do is copies of doccuments from centuries later. 
>which histporians do in fact accept as evidence. But for Jesus I did produce 
>non New TEstament evidence so you were additionally WRONG about that!
>You will certainly not supply ANY writings from Socrates since no such 
>writings ever existed even in the time of Socrates!
>
>>>
>>>>By
>>>> contrast, Jesus wrote nothing, built nothing, and only speaks via
>>>> disciples who wrote at least half a century after his death.
>>>
>>>WRONG! you have been shown evidence from ROMAN historians JEWISH and 
>>>others!
>>
>> There are no trial transcripts and no records that anybody meeting the
>
>You didnt ask for transcripts of meetings. You stated "outside of the New 
>Testament" there was NO evidence of any kind for Jesus! WRONG!
>
>> description of "Jesus of Nazareth" was ever charged with anything, let
>> alone crucified.
>
>So what. The is no transcript that Socrates was ever charged with anything. 
>does that mean he didnt take poision as a result of the trial?
>
>>>
>>>What did Socrates personally build?
>>
>> Socrates was a philosopher and teacher, not an architect.
>
>Oh and Jesus was not a teacher or Philosopher?
>>
>>>What did Socrates write?
>>
>>>Socrates only ever speaks through diciples.
>>>What writings about him or by him from his time survive?
>>
>> He was condemned by the assembly for allegedly corrupting the youth of
>> Athens.
>
>You have a record of that?
>
>>That was recorded, and constitutes proof of his existence.
>
>And where is this record from the time of Socrates?
>
>There are no "official records"
>Plato writes about the Trial in The Apology
>Plato's Apology is commonly regarded as the most reliable source of 
>information about the historical Socrates
>but Ill bet you cant find me a copy dating from the time of Socrates (399 
>BC)
>
>Ill bet you wont find one from 299 or 199 . You might find a copy around 
>99BC.
>>
>>>The best Ill bet you can do is supply something from AFTER the time of 
>>>Jesus
>>>when Jesus was already over 300 years after Socrates!
>>
>> Nonsense
>
>Well wher is your earliest copy of Plato's apology?
>and how does it prove he didnt just invent a Socrohoax?
>
>>
>>>>>  >You have no independent evidence.
>>>
>>>You have no independent evidence of socrates! I have shown you roman and
>>>Jewish hiostorians and non christians as well as non New testament 
>>>writings!
>>>Your claim about "nothing outside of the New Testament" is clearly WRONG!
>>
>> You're still spinning your wheels, Mavis, but going nowhere.
>
>Wher is your evidence? I shopwed you contemporary evidenc for Jesus but you 
>have nothing about Socrates or alexander written at the time they were 
>around!
>
>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>It is listed above. roman historians from the time of Jesus. Jewish
>>>>>ones. Heretics and athists in addition to christians wrote about Jesus.
>>>>>
>>>>>You have produced NOTHING about Alexander or Socrates from their time.
>>>>
>>>> I didn't, they did.
>>>
>>>You have produced NOTHING contemporary to Socrates by him!
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>You have No independent evidence of their existance!
>>>>
>>>> A whole raft of cities founded by Alexander are ample proof.
>>>
>>>No they aren't! How are they.
>>>If a "sacred heart of jesus" church exists in every city in the world does
>>>that therefore prove Jesus?
>>>
>>>> Persian
>>>> chronicles prove the existence of Alexander.
>>>
>>>What Persian Chronicles? Ill betr you can produce NONE from the time
>>>Alexander was meant to be alive!
>
>No persian chronicale yet!
>>>
>>>>Athenian chronicles prove
>>>> the existence of Alexander and of Socrates.
>>>
>>>What Athenian chronicles from the time of Alexander or Socrates? Again Ill
>>>bet you can produce no contemporary accounts! If you produce any they will
>>>most likely be from at least 300 years later. Yet you discount anything
>>>about Jesus from say 150 years after Jesus
>
>No "athenian chronicles" yet! I guess they are with your proof Auswhitz and 
>Jesus didnt exist?
>
>>>>
>>>>>According to you alexander and socrates never existed!
>>>>
>>>> More nonsense by Mavis.
>>>
>>>But the evidence is absent! Where are these Chronicles you claim that were
>>>written say in 330 BC when Alexander was meant to be around?
>>>Where is there anything ever written by Socrates?
>>>
>>>Yet you claim that if Jesus didn't write something or if someone from 
>>>around
>>>the same time as Jesus didn't refer to him then he didn't exist?
>>>
>>>You have double standards!
>
>Yep! Nothing from Socrates or Alexander but he will deny the Holocaust and 
>Jesus ever existed!
>
>Double standards! 
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:39:32 EDT 2009
Article: 2016007 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jesus tried to warn us about the Jews -"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lust of your father ye will do."
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Fri, 1 May 2009 17:33:52 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
 wrote:

>
>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message 
>news:ppslv499h7g4o9954heqdfs82loie0r6pf@4ax.com...
>> On Thu, 30 Apr 2009 20:34:37 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
>>  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message
>>>news:ljojv41b00q38lqjojjl16cp8sg2vhcv34@4ax.com...
>>>> On Thu, 30 Apr 2009 16:49:00 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
>>>>  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message
>>>>>news:u84ev498qnsb7arf8ouceg7mptf2tjbuiv@4ax.com...
>>>>>> On Tue, 28 Apr 2009 02:38:57 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
>>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>"Mavisbeacon"  wrote in message
>>>>>>>news:26ad5$49f59a2b$596480f8$9758@news.upc.ie...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message
>>>>>>>> news:ftk9v4pvi7c33reejkug2gql8snht54uqt@4ax.com...
>>>>>>>>>I repeat, there is no record of Christ's existence anywhere except 
>>>>>>>>>the
>>>>>>>>> New Testament. If you find some, you will become world famous
>>>>>>>>> overnight.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>WELL?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Now that you were shown it what have you to say?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> You haven't shown me anything worth squat. Church babble centuries
>>>>>> after the fact doesn't cut it. You have no independent evidence.
>>>>>
>>>>>Clement of Rome (c. 100),Ignatius of Antioch (c. 107-110), Justin 
>>>>>Martyr.
>>>>>Papias of Hierapolis
>>>>>Quadratus of Athens
>>>>>
>>>>>Josephus, Tacitus,
>>>>>Suetonius, and Pliny the Younger.
>>>>>(All Late first or early second century and NONE of them Christian)
>>>>
>>>> OK, I'm game. What did Tacitus write that was unambiguously about
>>>> Jesus?
>>>
>>>
>>>LOL! I note you added "unambiguous"! The point isnt whether Jesus Christed
>>>existed! The point you made what that no evidence outside of the New
>>>Testament esists! You were wrong!
>>
>> It isn't too bloody likely that I'm wrong. You are just the victim of
>> a rather primitive American education.
>
>My education is not a matter of debate. Nor would it matter . Nor if I am 
>male or female young or old disabled or healthy. What matters here is 
>whether you can support an UNSUPPORTED OPINION . You cant! I have supported 
>the opinion (not MY subjective opinion but THE opinion) that Jesus existed 
>in history. I supported it with reference to major sacholors on the time and 
>to written artefacts from times contemporary to Jesus. this is in addition 
>to the New testament.
>Having done so i asked you to provide the same standarsd to Alexander the 
>Great or Socrates two of the most famous people in history. you have fallen 
>far short of doin so by not producing ANY evidence and only saying "the 
>evidence exists"

You are not worth the time required to do what you demand. Your style
of debate is simple-minded harassment. I tell you that I'm going to
the store to buy a cone of ice-cream, and your response is "prove that
you can walk", prove that "cones exist", prove that "ice-cream"
exists. These exchanges are a waste of my time. The bottom line is
that you are entitled to believe in the existence of the tooth-fairy,
the sky-pixie, or any other thing you want. It is no skin off my nose
what you believe about anything, and I was merely pointing out why I
don't share your enthusiasm for RC superstitions. I have no obligation
to attempt to "prove" anything to you, nor do I really care whether
you believe me or not. I'm just stating the reasons I don't share your
beliefs.

It is the same with poor old gourd and mcvay. I don't mind that they
believe in the "geysers of blood" or the "jumping buckets of flesh"
accounts. That is their business. What I don't understand is why he
wants to force his beliefs onto others, specifically me,  by means of
threats, intimidation, and character assassination. Calling me various
names will not make me more inclined believe their stories, any more
than some RC priest calling me a heretic will make me want to convert
to Roman Catholicism.

>
>>
>>>
>>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus#Ancient_Creeds
>>>Tacitus (c. 56-c. 117), writing c. 116, included in his Annals a mention 
>>>of
>>>Christianity and "Christus", the Latinized Greek translation of the Hebrew
>>>word "Messiah". In describing Nero's persecution of this group following 
>>>the
>>>Great Fire of Rome c. 64, he wrote:
>>
>> Tacitus wasn't even born until after Christ's death.
>
>YOU ASKED ME to supply it!
>
>How do you know Plato was born when socrates was alive or that he didnt 
>Socrohoax socrates?
>
>Most of the people in the world today were not born before WWII. Are you 
>saying that should be banned form writing any history?
>You basiucally rule out ALL revisionism then?
>What a wally!
>
>>His comments are
>> about Christians, since the cult obviously existed already during his
>> lifetime.
>
>A cult following a "Christ"!
>
>>His writings could count as "proof" of the existence of the
>> cult, but not of the existence of Christ himself.
>
>So what would count as evidence for existance of Socrates?
>LOL! You are back to you "only court records count"
>There are nt any for Socrates!
>Theres nothing for alexander the Great either!
>
>Only the historians writing centuries later about the cult of Alexander!
>
>
>>>
>>>  Nero fastened the guilt of starting the blaze and inflicted the most
>>>exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called
>>>Christians [Chrestians] by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had
>>>its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius 
>>>14-37
>>>at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most
>>>mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not
>>>only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all
>>>things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre
>>>and become popular
>>>
>>>the vast majority of scholars conclude that the passage was written by
>>>Tacitus
>>>
>>>Flavius Josephus (c. 37-c. 100), a Jew and Roman citizen who worked under
>>>the patronage of the Flavians, wrote the Antiquities of the Jews in 93 
>>>AD..
>>>In these works, Jesus is mentioned twice.
>>>
>>>Pliny the Younger, the provincial governor of Pontus and Bithynia, wrote 
>>>to
>>>Emperor Trajan c. 112 concerning how to deal with Christians, who refused 
>>>to
>>>worship the emperor, and instead worshiped "Christus".
>>>
>>>  Those who denied that they were or had been Christians, when they 
>>> invoked
>>>the gods in words dictated by me, offered prayer with incense and wine to
>>>your image, which I had ordered to be brought for this purpose together 
>>>with
>>>statues of the gods, and moreover cursed Christ - none of which those who
>>>are really Christians, it is said, can be forced to do - these I thought
>>>should be discharged. Others named by the informer declared that they were
>>>Christians, but then denied it, asserting that they had been but had 
>>>ceased
>>>to be, some three years before, others many years, some as much as
>>>twenty-five years. They all worshiped your image and the statues of the
>>>gods, and cursed Christ
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Many of these people wrote at a time when the Christian
>>>> religion was already in existence, so they don't constitute proof of
>>>> Christ's physical existence.
>>>
>>>LOL! What a load of shite! You want people from BEFORE the time of Jesus
>>>now?
>>>
>>>I suppose you can produce someone from BEFORE alexander was born to prove
>>>alexander! LOL!
>>>
>>>Look! You can't produce a writing by someone who wrote at the time of
>>>socrates about Socrates or Alexander can you?
>>>Now I didn't say that I would reject any reference to anyone later writing
>>>about such a writing even if you can't produce it because I know about
>>>historical methodology with respect to ancient history. You obviously 
>>>don't
>>>!
>>>
>>>But Ill bet you cant produce a writing from a hundred years later and that
>>>the best you can do is produce something from about 350 years later
>>>referring to a lost earlier work.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>There is one reference to Thallus having written about the Crucifixion.
>>>>>
>>>>>Celsus wrote, about 180AD a book against the Christians.
>>>>>
>>> 
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:39:33 EDT 2009
Article: 2016008 of alt.revisionism
Path: border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-in-01.newsfeed.easynews.com!easynews!core-easynews-01!easynews.com!en-nntp-05.dc1.easynews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust "Victims" Count - What variance - Cremation data.
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
Message-ID: 
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On Fri, 1 May 2009 16:52:04 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
 wrote:

>
>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message 
>news:k6tlv4lrl0ompfmikl80kbejecrou8hufq@4ax.com...
>> On Fri, 1 May 2009 09:07:53 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
>>  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"B.H. Cramer"  wrote in message
>>>news:1oWdndQGSJv0v2fUnZ2dnVY3goWdnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>>
>>>> "Mavisbeacon"  wrote in message
>>>> news:1b239$49f9fd64$596480f8$16053@news.upc.ie...
>>>>>
>>>>> "Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message
>>>>> news:tfkjv41ng0i1u04fj278n18vrfhac3c7dt@4ax.com...
>>>>>> On Thu, 30 Apr 2009 12:55:53 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
>>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>"B.H. Cramer"  wrote in message
>>>>>>>news:46GdnSA0oK5A7mTUnZ2dnVY3goydnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Mavisbeacon"  wrote in message
>>>>>>>> news:4c71f$49f96963$596480f8$9879@news.upc.ie...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "B.H. Cramer"  wrote in message
>>>>>>>>> news:G9qdnU9faI8XoGTUnZ2dnVY3gomdnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "Gord McFee"  wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>> news:eq2iv4hs7ehnmij0gebt3pla3u232qls8e@4ax.com...
>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 29 Apr 2009 15:20:11 +1000, in
>>>>>>>>>>> , "B.H. Cramer"
>>>>>>>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> "Anonymous"  wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>>>> news:02df9c5c5b991ab6c90cef0560f4482d@mixmaster.nymu.eu...
>>>>>>>>>>>> > On Tue, 28 Apr 2009 12:22:29 +0000, Truthseeker wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> I am of the opinion that you are a Holocaust denier, that 
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> you
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> know
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> if you openly state on an international stage that that is 
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> case you
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> can be arrested by international warrant
>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>> > I live in the USA. If I think that the holohoax is a crock of
>>>>>>>>>>>> > shit
>>>>>>>>>>>> > and
>>>>>>>>>>>> > say so here, are you telling me that if I am identified today,
>>>>>>>>>>>> > and
>>>>>>>>>>>> > visit
>>>>>>>>>>>> > Germany or Austria in the future, I can be arrested there for
>>>>>>>>>>>> > 'denying
>>>>>>>>>>>> > the holohoax' or whatever it is called?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Publish your thoughts along those lines and yes, you can be
>>>>>>>>>>>> arrested
>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>> Germany and many other countries for dissing the Holocaust(tm).
>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>> > And that can happen even though it is legal in the USA to say
>>>>>>>>>>>> > the
>>>>>>>>>>>> > holohaox is a crock of shit?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Even in the US you will get your arse canned if you make too 
>>>>>>>>>>>> much
>>>>>>>>>>>> noise
>>>>>>>>>>>> about questioning the Holocaust(tm).  Many academics have found
>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>> out -
>>>>>>>>>>>> the hard way.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Not that you can name one and prove it.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> You lying old turd. Butz and Finkelstein come immediately to mind.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Who are Butz and Finkelsein , what academic credentials do they 
>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> how were they "canned" for questioning the Holocaust?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You really are as dumb as a box of rocks, girlie.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>You mentioned the names Butz and Finkelsein as cases of academics 
>>>>>>>being
>>>>>>>canned and you can't actually support your own claim. If you can't
>>>>>>>support
>>>>>>>your own claim don't try to attack the person asking you for the
>>>>>>>supporting
>>>>>>>evidence. It is a dead giveaway that you are a loser.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I know and understand what Ben is talking about, so why don't you?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> You cant SHOW you know unless you can show whom he is talking about and
>>>>> how it is a case of academics being canned for holocaust denial.
>>>>
>>>> It will take you seconds to find evidence of Butz and Finkelstein's
>>>> destruction,
>>>
>>>Then why can't you supply it since you claim it and you say the evidence 
>>>is
>>>there?
>>>You claim ity why should I have to do your work for you? especially if it 
>>>is
>>>untrue?
>>>
>>>> It is common knowledge among those with even a modicum of intelligence.
>>>
>>>It will take you seconds to find evidence of the Holocaust .
>>
>> It will take seconds for find holocaust fables and holocaust
>> propaganda. It is all over the place.
>
>So doubt so is you Alexander and socrates propaganda. All I see ids you 
>opinion and no evidence as yet. why should I believe you?

I never said that I wanted you to believe me. I don't give a flying
shit what you believe. I don't share your RC superstitions, but you're
welcome to them.

>
>>
>>>It is common
>>>knowledge to anyone intelligent or not (so you can count yourself in 
>>>there).
>>>But bigots like you apply double standards to that as well don't you?
>>>
>>>Where is the evidence to support your claims about lots of academics being
>>>canned?
>>
>> Christ all fucking mighty, Mavis, read a few books or newspapers.
>
>So that no evidence from you then?
>No surprises there!
>
>No evidence of Alexander or Socrates from their time either!
>
>But when it comes to Jesus and the Holocaust you can't accept the evidence 
>for the historical truth even if shown it! I surprised that you don't label 
>a historical Jesus as "Jewish propaganda" in spite of the fact that The Jews 
>were superseded and replaced by Christians. 
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:39:33 EDT 2009
Article: 2016009 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust "Victims" Count - What variance - Cremation data.
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
Message-ID: 
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On Fri, 1 May 2009 16:54:08 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
 wrote:

>
>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message 
>news:11tlv4po9uqav60p4pvfu29va238nqach3@4ax.com...
>> On Thu, 30 Apr 2009 20:07:49 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
>>  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message
>>>news:tfkjv41ng0i1u04fj278n18vrfhac3c7dt@4ax.com...
>>>> On Thu, 30 Apr 2009 12:55:53 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
>>>>  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>"B.H. Cramer"  wrote in message
>>>>>news:46GdnSA0oK5A7mTUnZ2dnVY3goydnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Mavisbeacon"  wrote in message
>>>>>> news:4c71f$49f96963$596480f8$9879@news.upc.ie...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "B.H. Cramer"  wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:G9qdnU9faI8XoGTUnZ2dnVY3gomdnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Gord McFee"  wrote in message
>>>>>>>> news:eq2iv4hs7ehnmij0gebt3pla3u232qls8e@4ax.com...
>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 29 Apr 2009 15:20:11 +1000, in
>>>>>>>>> , "B.H. Cramer"
>>>>>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "Anonymous"  wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>> news:02df9c5c5b991ab6c90cef0560f4482d@mixmaster.nymu.eu...
>>>>>>>>>> > On Tue, 28 Apr 2009 12:22:29 +0000, Truthseeker wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> >>> I am of the opinion that you are a Holocaust denier, that you
>>>>>>>>>> >>> know
>>>>>>>>>> >>> that
>>>>>>>>>> >>> if you openly state on an international stage that that is the
>>>>>>>>>> >>> case you
>>>>>>>>>> >>> can be arrested by international warrant
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> > I live in the USA. If I think that the holohoax is a crock of 
>>>>>>>>>> > shit
>>>>>>>>>> > and
>>>>>>>>>> > say so here, are you telling me that if I am identified today, 
>>>>>>>>>> > and
>>>>>>>>>> > visit
>>>>>>>>>> > Germany or Austria in the future, I can be arrested there for
>>>>>>>>>> > 'denying
>>>>>>>>>> > the holohoax' or whatever it is called?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Publish your thoughts along those lines and yes, you can be 
>>>>>>>>>> arrested
>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>> Germany and many other countries for dissing the Holocaust(tm).
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> > And that can happen even though it is legal in the USA to say 
>>>>>>>>>> > the
>>>>>>>>>> > holohaox is a crock of shit?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Even in the US you will get your arse canned if you make too much
>>>>>>>>>> noise
>>>>>>>>>> about questioning the Holocaust(tm).  Many academics have found 
>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>> out -
>>>>>>>>>> the hard way.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Not that you can name one and prove it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You lying old turd. Butz and Finkelstein come immediately to mind.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Who are Butz and Finkelsein , what academic credentials do they have
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> how were they "canned" for questioning the Holocaust?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You really are as dumb as a box of rocks, girlie.
>>>>>
>>>>>You mentioned the names Butz and Finkelsein as cases of academics being
>>>>>canned and you can't actually support your own claim. If you can't 
>>>>>support
>>>>>your own claim don't try to attack the person asking you for the
>>>>>supporting
>>>>>evidence. It is a dead giveaway that you are a loser.
>>>>
>>>> I know and understand what Ben is talking about, so why don't you?
>>>>
>>>
>>>You cant SHOW you know unless you can show whom he is talking about and 
>>>how
>>>it is a case of academics being canned for holocaust denial.
>>
>> Talking to you is like trying to explain calculus to a grade 3 pupil
>> who has just started basic addition and subtraction.
>>
>> You just don't have the knowledge base to partake in any meaningful
>> discussion about anything here.
>>
>> It isn't my assignment to educate you. Hire somebody.
>
>Try looking up "ad hominem" . It is a dead giveaway. when someone is LOSING 
>the argument they resort to attacking the person who has defeated them! Look 
>up"shifting the burden" while you are at it! 
>
There is no "argument". I was merely stating what I believe and why.
If that doesn't suit you, tough. I don't care what you might believe
about religion or the holocaust™, and I'm not out here to gain
converts. You keep attacking me for simply stating my positions on
various topics. I'm not debating you at all. I didn't ask for your
input. It was you who decided to give me your input whether I wanted
it or not, just like mcfee/mcvay.



From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:39:34 EDT 2009
Article: 2016011 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust "Victims" Count - What variance - Cremation data.
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
Message-ID: 
References:   <4c71f$49f96963$596480f8$9879@news.upc.ie> <46GdnSA0oK5A7mTUnZ2dnVY3goydnZ2d@giganews.com>   <1b239$49f9fd64$596480f8$16053@news.upc.ie> <11tlv4po9uqav60p4pvfu29va238nqach3@4ax.com>  
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On Sat, 2 May 2009 07:48:53 +1000, "B.H. Cramer"
 wrote:

>
>"Mavisbeacon"  wrote in message 
>news:f3df0$49fb24f3$596480f8$20622@news.upc.ie...
>>
>> "Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message 
>> news:11tlv4po9uqav60p4pvfu29va238nqach3@4ax.com...
>>> On Thu, 30 Apr 2009 20:07:49 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
>>>  wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message
>>>>news:tfkjv41ng0i1u04fj278n18vrfhac3c7dt@4ax.com...
>>>>> On Thu, 30 Apr 2009 12:55:53 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>"B.H. Cramer"  wrote in message
>>>>>>news:46GdnSA0oK5A7mTUnZ2dnVY3goydnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Mavisbeacon"  wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:4c71f$49f96963$596480f8$9879@news.upc.ie...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "B.H. Cramer"  wrote in message
>>>>>>>> news:G9qdnU9faI8XoGTUnZ2dnVY3gomdnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "Gord McFee"  wrote in message
>>>>>>>>> news:eq2iv4hs7ehnmij0gebt3pla3u232qls8e@4ax.com...
>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 29 Apr 2009 15:20:11 +1000, in
>>>>>>>>>> , "B.H. Cramer"
>>>>>>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> "Anonymous"  wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>>> news:02df9c5c5b991ab6c90cef0560f4482d@mixmaster.nymu.eu...
>>>>>>>>>>> > On Tue, 28 Apr 2009 12:22:29 +0000, Truthseeker wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> I am of the opinion that you are a Holocaust denier, that you
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> know
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> that
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> if you openly state on an international stage that that is 
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> case you
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> can be arrested by international warrant
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> > I live in the USA. If I think that the holohoax is a crock of 
>>>>>>>>>>> > shit
>>>>>>>>>>> > and
>>>>>>>>>>> > say so here, are you telling me that if I am identified today, 
>>>>>>>>>>> > and
>>>>>>>>>>> > visit
>>>>>>>>>>> > Germany or Austria in the future, I can be arrested there for
>>>>>>>>>>> > 'denying
>>>>>>>>>>> > the holohoax' or whatever it is called?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Publish your thoughts along those lines and yes, you can be 
>>>>>>>>>>> arrested
>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>> Germany and many other countries for dissing the Holocaust(tm).
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> > And that can happen even though it is legal in the USA to say 
>>>>>>>>>>> > the
>>>>>>>>>>> > holohaox is a crock of shit?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Even in the US you will get your arse canned if you make too much
>>>>>>>>>>> noise
>>>>>>>>>>> about questioning the Holocaust(tm).  Many academics have found 
>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>> out -
>>>>>>>>>>> the hard way.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Not that you can name one and prove it.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You lying old turd. Butz and Finkelstein come immediately to mind.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Who are Butz and Finkelsein , what academic credentials do they have
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> how were they "canned" for questioning the Holocaust?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You really are as dumb as a box of rocks, girlie.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>You mentioned the names Butz and Finkelsein as cases of academics being
>>>>>>canned and you can't actually support your own claim. If you can't 
>>>>>>support
>>>>>>your own claim don't try to attack the person asking you for the
>>>>>>supporting
>>>>>>evidence. It is a dead giveaway that you are a loser.
>>>>>
>>>>> I know and understand what Ben is talking about, so why don't you?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>You cant SHOW you know unless you can show whom he is talking about and 
>>>>how
>>>>it is a case of academics being canned for holocaust denial.
>>>
>>> Talking to you is like trying to explain calculus to a grade 3 pupil
>>> who has just started basic addition and subtraction.
>>>
>>> You just don't have the knowledge base to partake in any meaningful
>>> discussion about anything here.
>>>
>>> It isn't my assignment to educate you. Hire somebody.
>>
>> Try looking up "ad hominem" . It is a dead giveaway. when someone is 
>> LOSING the argument they resort to attacking the person who has defeated 
>> them! Look up"shifting the burden" while you are at it!
>
>Shut up. You've lost. You're as thick as pig shit.

Unlike mcfee/mcvay, who are paid to be obtuse, this poor woman comes
across as truly clueless and sincerely ignorant. It really is a waste
of time talking to her much longer.

>
>
>>
>>
>> 


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:39:35 EDT 2009
Article: 2016014 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust "Victims" Count - What variance - Cremation data.
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
Message-ID: 
References:    <4c71f$49f96963$596480f8$9879@news.upc.ie> <46GdnSA0oK5A7mTUnZ2dnVY3goydnZ2d@giganews.com>   <1b239$49f9fd64$596480f8$16053@news.upc.ie> <11tlv4po9uqav60p4pvfu29va238nqach3@4ax.com> 
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On Sat, 2 May 2009 07:48:24 +1000, "B.H. Cramer"
 wrote:

>
>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message 
>news:11tlv4po9uqav60p4pvfu29va238nqach3@4ax.com...
>> On Thu, 30 Apr 2009 20:07:49 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
>>  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message
>>>news:tfkjv41ng0i1u04fj278n18vrfhac3c7dt@4ax.com...
>>>> On Thu, 30 Apr 2009 12:55:53 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
>>>>  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>"B.H. Cramer"  wrote in message
>>>>>news:46GdnSA0oK5A7mTUnZ2dnVY3goydnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Mavisbeacon"  wrote in message
>>>>>> news:4c71f$49f96963$596480f8$9879@news.upc.ie...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "B.H. Cramer"  wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:G9qdnU9faI8XoGTUnZ2dnVY3gomdnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Gord McFee"  wrote in message
>>>>>>>> news:eq2iv4hs7ehnmij0gebt3pla3u232qls8e@4ax.com...
>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 29 Apr 2009 15:20:11 +1000, in
>>>>>>>>> , "B.H. Cramer"
>>>>>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "Anonymous"  wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>> news:02df9c5c5b991ab6c90cef0560f4482d@mixmaster.nymu.eu...
>>>>>>>>>> > On Tue, 28 Apr 2009 12:22:29 +0000, Truthseeker wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> >>> I am of the opinion that you are a Holocaust denier, that you
>>>>>>>>>> >>> know
>>>>>>>>>> >>> that
>>>>>>>>>> >>> if you openly state on an international stage that that is the
>>>>>>>>>> >>> case you
>>>>>>>>>> >>> can be arrested by international warrant
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> > I live in the USA. If I think that the holohoax is a crock of 
>>>>>>>>>> > shit
>>>>>>>>>> > and
>>>>>>>>>> > say so here, are you telling me that if I am identified today, 
>>>>>>>>>> > and
>>>>>>>>>> > visit
>>>>>>>>>> > Germany or Austria in the future, I can be arrested there for
>>>>>>>>>> > 'denying
>>>>>>>>>> > the holohoax' or whatever it is called?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Publish your thoughts along those lines and yes, you can be 
>>>>>>>>>> arrested
>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>> Germany and many other countries for dissing the Holocaust(tm).
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> > And that can happen even though it is legal in the USA to say 
>>>>>>>>>> > the
>>>>>>>>>> > holohaox is a crock of shit?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Even in the US you will get your arse canned if you make too much
>>>>>>>>>> noise
>>>>>>>>>> about questioning the Holocaust(tm).  Many academics have found 
>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>> out -
>>>>>>>>>> the hard way.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Not that you can name one and prove it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You lying old turd. Butz and Finkelstein come immediately to mind.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Who are Butz and Finkelsein , what academic credentials do they have
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> how were they "canned" for questioning the Holocaust?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You really are as dumb as a box of rocks, girlie.
>>>>>
>>>>>You mentioned the names Butz and Finkelsein as cases of academics being
>>>>>canned and you can't actually support your own claim. If you can't 
>>>>>support
>>>>>your own claim don't try to attack the person asking you for the
>>>>>supporting
>>>>>evidence. It is a dead giveaway that you are a loser.
>>>>
>>>> I know and understand what Ben is talking about, so why don't you?
>>>>
>>>
>>>You cant SHOW you know unless you can show whom he is talking about and 
>>>how
>>>it is a case of academics being canned for holocaust denial.
>>
>> Talking to you is like trying to explain calculus to a grade 3 pupil
>> who has just started basic addition and subtraction.
>>
>> You just don't have the knowledge base to partake in any meaningful
>> discussion about anything here.
>>
>> It isn't my assignment to educate you. Hire somebody.
>
>Bravo.



I'm afraid that my frustration was starting to get to me. Talking to
Mavis is like trying to teach a swine to sing the American National
Anthem. It is an exercise in futility that frustrates the teacher and
clearly annoys the pig.

>
>
>
>>
>>>
>> 


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:39:35 EDT 2009
Article: 2016016 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust "Victims" Count - What variance - Cremation data.
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
Message-ID: 
References:    <4c71f$49f96963$596480f8$9879@news.upc.ie>  <1cdf0$49f9fd65$596480f8$16053@news.upc.ie>  <958b2$49fab519$596480f8$5225@news.upc.ie>  <8bc$49fb1199$596480f8$2935@news.upc.ie>
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Xref: number.nntp.dca.giganews.com alt.revisionism:2016016

On Fri, 1 May 2009 13:26:28 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
 wrote:

>
>"B.H. Cramer"  wrote in message 
>news:YZudnUjBfNBYJGfUnZ2dnVY3goWdnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>
>> "Mavisbeacon"  wrote in message 
>> news:958b2$49fab519$596480f8$5225@news.upc.ie...
>>>
>>> "B.H. Cramer"  wrote in message 
>>> news:IqydndxifJbHuWfUnZ2dnVY3gomdnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>>
>>> [snip]
>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Even in the US you will get your arse canned if you make too much 
>>>>>>>>>> noise
>>>>>>>>>> about questioning the Holocaust(tm).  Many academics have found 
>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>> out -
>>>>>>>>>> the hard way.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Not that you can name one and prove it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You lying old turd. Butz and Finkelstein come immediately to mind.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Who are Butz and Finkelsein
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Holy fucking Moly, woman, do some research. Why are you wasting our
>>>>>> time?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Why don't you do some research and look up the phrase "burden of 
>>>>> evidence"?
>>>>
>>>> Why don't you ever support your
>>> > shite with evidence, twat.
>>>
>>> I do -
>>> http://www.geocities.com/xenu_rules/misc-burden-of-proof.html
>>> http://education.gsu.edu/spehar/FOCUS/EdPsy/misc/Fallacies.htm
>>> http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/burden-of-proof.html
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance#Burden_of_proof
>>> http://www.zionism-israel.com/Fallacies/burden-of-proof.html
>>> http://www.sjsu.edu/depts/itl/graphics/adhom/burden.html
>>
>> Then shut the fuck up and find what was done to Finkelstein and Butz for 
>> yourself.
>
>The above supports the position that THE PERSON MAKING THE CLAIM - i.e. = 
>YOU has to support their claim!

You are simply not worth that much effort. You were not invited to
this discussion, but chose to invite yourself. Neither Ben nor I have
any obligation to provide you with proof of anything.

>
>
>
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:39:36 EDT 2009
Article: 2016017 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust "Victims" Count - What variance - Cremation data.
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
Message-ID: <4lbpv45jup59m2h80kj05tof7oenti5u54@4ax.com>
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On Fri, 1 May 2009 16:57:19 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
 wrote:

>
>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message 
>news:ugtlv49bgqgfmhhsvt3ebugvc727nbvla9@4ax.com...
>> On Fri, 1 May 2009 09:12:23 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
>>  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"B.H. Cramer"  wrote in message
>>>news:IqydndxifJbHuWfUnZ2dnVY3gomdnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>>
>>>[snip]
>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Even in the US you will get your arse canned if you make too much
>>>>>>>>>> noise
>>>>>>>>>> about questioning the Holocaust(tm).  Many academics have found 
>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>> out -
>>>>>>>>>> the hard way.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Not that you can name one and prove it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You lying old turd. Butz and Finkelstein come immediately to mind.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Who are Butz and Finkelsein
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Holy fucking Moly, woman, do some research. Why are you wasting our
>>>>>> time?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Why don't you do some research and look up the phrase "burden of
>>>>> evidence"?
>>>>
>>>> Why don't you ever support your
>>> > shite with evidence, twat.
>>>
>>>I do -
>>>http://www.geocities.com/xenu_rules/misc-burden-of-proof.html
>>>http://education.gsu.edu/spehar/FOCUS/EdPsy/misc/Fallacies.htm
>>>http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/burden-of-proof.html
>>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance#Burden_of_proof
>>>http://www.zionism-israel.com/Fallacies/burden-of-proof.html
>>>http://www.sjsu.edu/depts/itl/graphics/adhom/burden.html
>>>
>> Nizkor's propaganda offerings don't quite make it as "evidence" of
>> anything except that the holocaustT industry has a lot of money at its
>> disposal.
>
>The Nizkor definition happens to agree with and antiscientology definition, 
>two  third level educational institutiona and wikipedia.
>
>They are all Jewish too I suppose?
>One can look at christian sites (NOT JEWISH) and especially atheist sites 
>(also non Jewish) for similar definitions!
>
>LOL! What a joke you are making of yourself.

Being a devout RC, it is clear that you are prone to believing in
fables, so Nizkor would be your kind of site.

>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:39:36 EDT 2009
Article: 2016018 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust "Victims" Count - What variance - Cremation data.
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
Message-ID: 
References: <9yCJl.24611$Db2.22407@edtnps83> <02df9c5c5b991ab6c90cef0560f4482d@mixmaster.nymu.eu>    <4c71f$49f96963$596480f8$9879@news.upc.ie>  <1cdf0$49f9fd65$596480f8$16053@news.upc.ie>  <2da8$49fb24f6$596480f8$20622@news.upc.ie>
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On Fri, 1 May 2009 17:00:11 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
 wrote:

>
>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message 
>news:tctlv45bb4m55s59j06j0jilrdn6cf545n@4ax.com...
>> On Thu, 30 Apr 2009 20:09:58 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
>>  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message
>>>news:udkjv4l78l1i1mdqihuimn5rbquc7d3s4b@4ax.com...
>>>> On Thu, 30 Apr 2009 08:58:48 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
>>>>  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>"B.H. Cramer"  wrote in message
>>>>>news:G9qdnU9faI8XoGTUnZ2dnVY3gomdnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Gord McFee"  wrote in message
>>>>>> news:eq2iv4hs7ehnmij0gebt3pla3u232qls8e@4ax.com...
>>>>>>> On Wed, 29 Apr 2009 15:20:11 +1000, in
>>>>>>> , "B.H. Cramer"
>>>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Anonymous"  wrote in message
>>>>>>>> news:02df9c5c5b991ab6c90cef0560f4482d@mixmaster.nymu.eu...
>>>>>>>> > On Tue, 28 Apr 2009 12:22:29 +0000, Truthseeker wrote:
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> >>> I am of the opinion that you are a Holocaust denier, that you 
>>>>>>>> >>> know
>>>>>>>> >>> that
>>>>>>>> >>> if you openly state on an international stage that that is the
>>>>>>>> >>> case
>>>>>>>> >>> you
>>>>>>>> >>> can be arrested by international warrant
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > I live in the USA. If I think that the holohoax is a crock of shit
>>>>>>>> > and
>>>>>>>> > say so here, are you telling me that if I am identified today, and
>>>>>>>> > visit
>>>>>>>> > Germany or Austria in the future, I can be arrested there for
>>>>>>>> > 'denying
>>>>>>>> > the holohoax' or whatever it is called?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Publish your thoughts along those lines and yes, you can be arrested
>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>> Germany and many other countries for dissing the Holocaust(tm).
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > And that can happen even though it is legal in the USA to say the
>>>>>>>> > holohaox is a crock of shit?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Even in the US you will get your arse canned if you make too much
>>>>>>>> noise
>>>>>>>> about questioning the Holocaust(tm).  Many academics have found that
>>>>>>>> out -
>>>>>>>> the hard way.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Not that you can name one and prove it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You lying old turd. Butz and Finkelstein come immediately to mind.
>>>>>
>>>>>Who are Butz and Finkelsein
>>>>
>>>> Holy fucking Moly, woman, do some research. Why are you wasting our
>>>> time?
>>>
>>>
>>>Why don't you do some research and look up the phrase "burden of 
>>>evidence"?
>>>I didn't make the claim.
>>>If YOU make a claim then YOU supply the evidence.
>>
>> Nobody is making a "claim".
>
>" Butz and Finkelstein come immediately to mind" is a claim based on the 
>question
>Can name [an academic canned for holocaust Denial] and prove it [i.e. that 
>they were accused and canned].
>
>>The trials and tribulations of both Butz
>> and Finkelstein have been widely reported in all manner of different
>> media. Your ignorance isn't either my problem or Ben's.
>
>Yes it is.
>and since the Holocaust and Jesus are also widely reported on your ignorance 
>of it isnt this groups problem.

Carefully read the name of the group, and you will realize that you
are an unwelcome interloper that is trying to force their bizarre
interpretations of history onto the participants. Can you not get it
through your thick head that I have no interest in what you believe or
have to say?  If I wanted to hear what you have to say, I could visit
a whole bunch of groups, such as soc.culture.jewish where your views
would be the standard.

Your presence here, just like mcfee/mcvay, is in the role of disrupter
and saboteur.


>
>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>What can I expect next? Are you going to claim Unicorns got canned for
>>>Holocaust denial and then when I ask you to show evidence of Unicorns you
>>>try the "do your own research" to support your empty claim?
>
>LOL! which is exactly what you did!
>
>>> 
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:39:36 EDT 2009
Article: 2016020 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Yad Vashem Counts the Same "Victims" Many Times
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Sat, 2 May 2009 13:25:52 -0400, "Neil Harrington"
 wrote:

>
>"Gord McFee"  wrote in message 
>news:7soov454uf47nvgag6i6visaoq5se0sc3g@4ax.com...
>> On Fri, 1 May 2009 22:17:13 -0400, in
>> , "Neil Harrington"
>>  wrote:
>>
>> [...]
>>
>>> Hitler posed no threat to the west. All of his territotial ambitions were 
>>> to
>>> the east.
>>
>> Whenever I am asked why I say that deniers are simply stupid, it is
>> quotes like this one that require no elaboration.
>>
>> All of Hitler's territorial ambitions were to the *east*.  Hmmm...
>> France, Belgium, Holland, Britain, Denmark, Norway.  Poor stupid
>> deniers.
>
>Britain and France declared war on Germany, not the other way around. Hitler 
>certainly did not want that war. Belgium lay between France and Germany and 
>since France had declared war it was the obvious route for German advance, 
>just as it had been 20 years before. (Duh.) Norway was invaded by Germany to 
>prevent its invasion by Britain, which the British obviously (and logically) 
>intended to do. The Germans simply beat them to it, and not by much. Holland 
>and Denmark were likely possibilities for British beachheads.
>
>Your "simply stupid" are the people who don't grasp these rather elementary 
>facts, Gord. I take it that you pride yourself on being among them. 
>
Your analysis makes perfectly good sense, but unfortunately, logic
isn't poor gourd's strong point.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:39:37 EDT 2009
Article: 2016028 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Eisenhower on mass exodus westward of German inhabitants. High mortality rates.
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Fri, 01 May 2009 18:49:25 GMT, "Truthseeker" 
wrote:

>A good friend of mine was in a Siberian concentration camp where the 
>Russians worked the prisoners to dead. When they were released they did have 
>most of the walk all the way to Germany. At one time while passing thru 
>Czechoslovakia the were greeted by the Czechs with some basin of fresh 
>water. He himself did drink out of a thirty ditch most of the others did die 
>because the water was poisoned. My rend name was Herman Schmitt and his wife 
>and kids can tell you all about it.

There is a reason that Bavarian school kids got out of their seats and
cheered when the news came in during 1968 that the Soviets had invaded
Czechoslovakia and were crushing Czechs under their tank treads. It
couldn't happen to nicer people.

>Kurt Knoll.
>
>
>"Bent Attorney Esq."  wrote in message 
>news:de7d5423-55ac-4af0-93d2-48db6756902d@h11g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
>On May 1, 12:31 pm, Zulu  wrote:
>> Eisenhower Telegram to the War Department,
>> 18 October 1945
>> (National Archives, Washington, D.C., RG165)
>>
>> At the conclusion of World War II more than fifteen million Germans
>> were driven from their homes in central and eastern Europe. It has
>> been estimated that 2,111,000 Germans died directly as a result of
>> these mass expulsions. The primary reference on this subject is:
>> Alfred M. de Zayas, "Nemesis at Potsdam: The Expulsion of the Germans
>> from the East" (University of Nebraska Press) Lincoln and London -
>> ISBN 0-8032-9907-9.
>>
>> WAR DEPARTMENT
>> CLASSIFIED MESSAGE CENTER
>> INCOMING CLASSIFIED MESSAGE
>>
>> TOP SECRET TOT
>>
>> PRIORITY
>>
>> CRYPTOGRAPHIC SECURITY DOES NOT APPLY. HANDLE AS TOP SECRET
>> CORRESPONDENCE PER PARAS 44g AND 53a AR 380-5
>>
>> From: CG US Forces European Theater Main Frankfurt Germany
>> To: War Department
>> Nr: S 28399..... 18 October 1945
>>
>> S 28399 to for action War Dept for G 2 attn Major General Clayton
>> Bissell from Hqs US Forces European Theater Main from Connor from
>> Sibert sgd Eisenhower cite ETGBI. TOP SECRET.
>>
>> Detailed reports from reliable observers including an officer from G 2
>> Div confirm indications of critical situation developing in area
>> Silesia and eastern Germany.
>>
>> In Silesia, Polish administration and methods are causing a mass
>> exodus westward of German inhabitants. Germans are being ordered out
>> of their homes and to evacuate New Poland. Many unable to move are
>> placed in camps on meager rations and under poor sanitary conditions.
>> Death and disease rate in camps extremely high. Germans who attempt to
>> hold onto homes and land are terrorized into "Voluntary" evacuation.
>> Methods used by Poles definitely do not conform to Potsdam agreement.
>> Polish administration disorganized in Silesia and no security exists
>> for inhabitants of region.
>>
>> Due to mass migrations into Brandenberg and Saxony, health conditions
>> in these regions tragically low. There is unprecedented lack of food,
>> medical supplies, and doctors. Reasonable estimates predict between
>> 2.5 and 3 million victims of malnutrition and disease between Oder and
>> Elbe by next spring.
>>
>> CM-IN-8742 (18 Oct 45)
>>
>> WAR DEPARTMENT
>> CLASSIFIED MESSAGE CENTER
>> INCOMING CLASSIFIED MESSAGE
>>
>> TOP SECRET TOT
>>
>> Page 2
>>
>> From: CG US Forces European Theater, Main Frankfurt Germany
>> Nr: S28399 18 October 1945
>>
>> Breslau death rate increased ten fold, and death rate reported to be
>> 75% of all births. Typhoid, typhus, dysentery, and diphtheria are
>> spreading.
>>
>> Total number potentially involved in westward movement to Russian Zone
>> of Germany from Poland and Czechoslovakia in range of 10 million.
>> Estimate 65 to 75 per cent already departed or on the road westward.
>> No coordinated measures yet taken to direct stream of refugees into
>> specific regions or provide food and shelter. Tendency of refugees is
>> to move into cities, and cities of Saxony, especially are becoming
>> dangerously over crowded. Attention is invited in this connection to
>> serious danger of epidemic of such great proportion as to menace all
>> Europe, including our troops, and to probability of mass starvation
>> unprecedented scale.
>>
>> Copies of special reports for your information are being forwarded by
>> Mail Annex Nbr 3 to our Special Intelligence Bulletin Nbr 3 gives a
>> preview of this problem.
>>
>> End
>>
>> ACTION : Gen Bissell
>>
>> INFO: Gen Arnold, Gen Hull, C of S
>>
>> CM-In-8742 (18 Oct 45) DTG 181435A da
>>
>> TOP SECRET
>>
>> http://www.codoh.com/incon/inconeisen.html
>
>My mother and her parents had their door knocked on one day.  They
>were given a few hours to gather possesions and leave.  There was no
>alternative given to them.  They were taken in by another villager.
>They stayed there for one year.  Then they were deported.  Through
>Czechoslovakia  Where a mob tried to storm their train.  Luckily,
>Czech troops kept the mob at bay.  Their story is interesting, but no
>one indoctrinated by the main stream media wants to hear it.
>Their house was inhabited by ethnic Hungarians who had been kicked out
>of Czechoslovakia. 
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:39:37 EDT 2009
Article: 2016029 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Eisenhower on mass exodus westward of German inhabitants. High  mortality rates.
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Fri, 1 May 2009 12:03:25 -0700 (PDT), "Bent Attorney Esq."
 wrote:

>On May 1, 2:49 pm, "Truthseeker"  wrote:
>> A good friend of mine was in a Siberian concentration camp where the
>> Russians worked the prisoners to dead. When they were released they did have
>> most of the walk all the way to Germany. At one time while passing thru
>> Czechoslovakia the were greeted by the Czechs with some basin of fresh
>> water. He himself did drink out of a thirty ditch most of the others did die
>> because the water was poisoned. My rend name was Herman Schmitt and his wife
>> and kids can tell you all about it.
>> Kurt Knoll.
>>
>
>The Czechs were especially brutal.  To people who had not caused them
>any harm.

Czechs were and are disgusting.

>
>> "Bent Attorney Esq."  wrote in messagenews:de7d5423-55ac-4af0-93d2-48db6756902d@h11g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
>> On May 1, 12:31 pm, Zulu  wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > Eisenhower Telegram to the War Department,
>> > 18 October 1945
>> > (National Archives, Washington, D.C., RG165)
>>
>> > At the conclusion of World War II more than fifteen million Germans
>> > were driven from their homes in central and eastern Europe. It has
>> > been estimated that 2,111,000 Germans died directly as a result of
>> > these mass expulsions. The primary reference on this subject is:
>> > Alfred M. de Zayas, "Nemesis at Potsdam: The Expulsion of the Germans
>> > from the East" (University of Nebraska Press) Lincoln and London -
>> > ISBN 0-8032-9907-9.
>>
>> > WAR DEPARTMENT
>> > CLASSIFIED MESSAGE CENTER
>> > INCOMING CLASSIFIED MESSAGE
>>
>> > TOP SECRET TOT
>>
>> > PRIORITY
>>
>> > CRYPTOGRAPHIC SECURITY DOES NOT APPLY. HANDLE AS TOP SECRET
>> > CORRESPONDENCE PER PARAS 44g AND 53a AR 380-5
>>
>> > From: CG US Forces European Theater Main Frankfurt Germany
>> > To: War Department
>> > Nr: S 28399..... 18 October 1945
>>
>> > S 28399 to for action War Dept for G 2 attn Major General Clayton
>> > Bissell from Hqs US Forces European Theater Main from Connor from
>> > Sibert sgd Eisenhower cite ETGBI. TOP SECRET.
>>
>> > Detailed reports from reliable observers including an officer from G 2
>> > Div confirm indications of critical situation developing in area
>> > Silesia and eastern Germany.
>>
>> > In Silesia, Polish administration and methods are causing a mass
>> > exodus westward of German inhabitants. Germans are being ordered out
>> > of their homes and to evacuate New Poland. Many unable to move are
>> > placed in camps on meager rations and under poor sanitary conditions.
>> > Death and disease rate in camps extremely high. Germans who attempt to
>> > hold onto homes and land are terrorized into "Voluntary" evacuation.
>> > Methods used by Poles definitely do not conform to Potsdam agreement.
>> > Polish administration disorganized in Silesia and no security exists
>> > for inhabitants of region.
>>
>> > Due to mass migrations into Brandenberg and Saxony, health conditions
>> > in these regions tragically low. There is unprecedented lack of food,
>> > medical supplies, and doctors. Reasonable estimates predict between
>> > 2.5 and 3 million victims of malnutrition and disease between Oder and
>> > Elbe by next spring.
>>
>> > CM-IN-8742 (18 Oct 45)
>>
>> > WAR DEPARTMENT
>> > CLASSIFIED MESSAGE CENTER
>> > INCOMING CLASSIFIED MESSAGE
>>
>> > TOP SECRET TOT
>>
>> > Page 2
>>
>> > From: CG US Forces European Theater, Main Frankfurt Germany
>> > Nr: S28399 18 October 1945
>>
>> > Breslau death rate increased ten fold, and death rate reported to be
>> > 75% of all births. Typhoid, typhus, dysentery, and diphtheria are
>> > spreading.
>>
>> > Total number potentially involved in westward movement to Russian Zone
>> > of Germany from Poland and Czechoslovakia in range of 10 million.
>> > Estimate 65 to 75 per cent already departed or on the road westward.
>> > No coordinated measures yet taken to direct stream of refugees into
>> > specific regions or provide food and shelter. Tendency of refugees is
>> > to move into cities, and cities of Saxony, especially are becoming
>> > dangerously over crowded. Attention is invited in this connection to
>> > serious danger of epidemic of such great proportion as to menace all
>> > Europe, including our troops, and to probability of mass starvation
>> > unprecedented scale.
>>
>> > Copies of special reports for your information are being forwarded by
>> > Mail Annex Nbr 3 to our Special Intelligence Bulletin Nbr 3 gives a
>> > preview of this problem.
>>
>> > End
>>
>> > ACTION : Gen Bissell
>>
>> > INFO: Gen Arnold, Gen Hull, C of S
>>
>> > CM-In-8742 (18 Oct 45) DTG 181435A da
>>
>> > TOP SECRET
>>
>> >http://www.codoh.com/incon/inconeisen.html
>>
>> My mother and her parents had their door knocked on one day.  They
>> were given a few hours to gather possesions and leave.  There was no
>> alternative given to them.  They were taken in by another villager.
>> They stayed there for one year.  Then they were deported.  Through
>> Czechoslovakia  Where a mob tried to storm their train.  Luckily,
>> Czech troops kept the mob at bay.  Their story is interesting, but no
>> one indoctrinated by the main stream media wants to hear it.
>> Their house was inhabited by ethnic Hungarians who had been kicked out
>> of Czechoslovakia.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:39:38 EDT 2009
Article: 2016030 of alt.revisionism
Path: border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-in-01.newsfeed.easynews.com!easynews!core-easynews-01!easynews.com!en-nntp-06.dc1.easynews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What exactly is the evidence against Demjanjuk?
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Fri, 1 May 2009 10:55:16 -0700 (PDT), "Bent Attorney Esq."
 wrote:

>
>http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSTRE54052020090501

The moral of the story seems to be that U.S. citizenship simply isn't
worth the paper on which it is printed. Americans of Japanese descent
already found that out during WW2.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:39:38 EDT 2009
Article: 2016032 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What exactly is the evidence against Demjanjuk?
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
Message-ID: 
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On Fri, 01 May 2009 18:52:53 GMT, "Truthseeker" 
wrote:

>The show must go on , who will they finger next. as for the court proceeding 
>in Germany I would say the world would be kept in dark.

Germany operates on Roman Law, so the accused is assumed guilty on
arrest, and is required to prove that the charges are unwarranted. It
makes it a hell of a lot easier to get convictions, and explains the
better than 98% conviction rates in many German courts, especially
those that specialize in propaganda offences.


>Kurt Knoll.
>
>"Bent Attorney Esq."  wrote in message 
>news:3240901f-440c-4335-b2dc-87cf4223067b@k41g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSTRE54052020090501 
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:39:38 EDT 2009
Article: 2016033 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What exactly is the evidence against Demjanjuk?
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
Message-ID: 
References: <3240901f-440c-4335-b2dc-87cf4223067b@k41g2000yqh.googlegroups.com>  <9yHKl.26173$PH1.3166@edtnps82> <4b4c95e1-a4e7-4e14-9219-f56d3dcca125@x3g2000yqa.googlegroups.com>
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On Fri, 1 May 2009 12:42:04 -0700 (PDT), "Bent Attorney Esq."
 wrote:

>On May 1, 2:52 pm, "Truthseeker"  wrote:
>> The show must go on , who will they finger next. as for the court proceeding
>> in Germany I would say the world would be kept in dark.
>> Kurt Knoll.
>>
>> "Bent Attorney Esq."  wrote in messagenews:3240901f-440c-4335-b2dc-87cf4223067b@k41g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSTRE54052020090501
>
>Question:  How many Jews perished during WWII?
>Question:  How many Americans perished during WWII?
>Question:  How many Soviets perished during WWII?
>Question:  How many Japs perished during WWII?
>
>And so on.  The answer is this:  Everyone knows how many Jews perished
>in WWII.  Yet very very few know how many Americans died; how many
>Japs died; how many innocent Germans died; how many Estonians died.
>etc.
>Why is that?

One is also allowed to argue about numbers regarding any figures but
the fabled six million.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:39:39 EDT 2009
Article: 2016034 of alt.revisionism
Path: border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-in-01.newsfeed.easynews.com!easynews!core-easynews-01!easynews.com!en-nntp-02.dc1.easynews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: J'accuse! An indictment of academic historians for their  unprofessional attitude to documenting the Holocaust
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Fri, 1 May 2009 11:03:45 -0700 (PDT), Zulu 
wrote:

>J'accuse! An indictment of academic historians for their
>unprofessional attitude to documenting the Holocaust
>
>
>Historians sometimes think of themselves as truthtellers and
>iconoclasts. One Canadian historian, for example, places the following
>quotation from Khrushchev as an epigraph at the head of her website:
>
>'Historians are dangerous people. They are capable of upsetting
>everything.'(1)
>
>Yet this is only true of real historians, those who are prepared to
>tell the truth about the past without fear or favour. It is doubtful
>that more than a handful of such historians have appeared in any given
>century.

Most historians, sadly, are just apologists for the people in power.
The Soviets believed that history was bunk designed to deceive the
masses for the benefit of the people in power. That same attitude
seems to reign in the western countries also.

>
>Certainly, there is little reason to attribute to academic historians
>today either truthtelling or iconoclastic potential. Indeed, it is
>hard to think of a single academic historian who has ruffled a
>politician's feathers in a very long time, let alone one who has
>rocked a political establishment.(2) The risks of genuine scholarly
>independence, such as loss of tenure, the loss of prestige,
>professional and social ostracism, and the loss of a means of
>livelihood are so great that they ensure that most academics conform
>to the expectations of their peers and the heads of their
>institutions.
>
>One only has to be aware of the trials and tribulations of New Zealand
>historian Joel Hayward, whose 1991 M.A. thesis gave a fair, and in
>certain respects sympathetic assessment of Holocaust revisionism, to
>appreciate the fact that an historian who upsets things has no future
>in academia.(3) In 2002, Hayward was forced by the pressure of the
>controversy over his M.A. to resign his tenured position as a Senior
>Lecturer in Defence and Strategic Studies at Massey University,
>Canterbury, N.Z. Although Hayward is now employed again (apparently by
>a British military college), his website trumpets the fact that he is
>a 'NON-REVISIONIST scholar.' In short, if Hayward is working as an
>historian again today, it is only because these days he flaunts his
>non-revisionism and his philo-Zionism. (He maintains, for example,
>that 'Israel clearly has a right to exist within its current
>borders.') Given that his latest book is about Lord Nelson, it also
>looks like a condition of his current employment is that he stays well
>away from WWII-related subjects.
>
>The result for Hayward is probably the BEST that could be expected for
>any academic who shows even the slightest objectivity in relation to
>the Holocaust. Today, academic historians are the zealous watchdogs of
>orthodoxy, the political religion of post-WWII liberal democracy.
>Subscribing to this religion is now mandatory - we are talking about
>an orthodoxy that is as rigidly enforced as any in any historical
>period, not excluding under dictatorships such as those of Hitler and
>Stalin.
>
>Although this political religion lacks a name, its dogmas - which
>comprise the core of what most ordinary people think they know about
>modern history - include the following:
>
>1. The Nazi regime was the most evil which has ever existed.
>
>2. Hitler was the most evil man who has ever lived.
>
>3. Hitler and the Nazis cannot be viewed negatively enough because
>they perpetrated the most evil crime ever perpetrated, the Holocaust.
>This was an evil plan, the most evil ever devised, to exterminate the
>Jews. The plan was the fruit of Hitler's radical anti-semitism.
>
>4. WWII was a good war because it led to the overthrow of Hitler and
>the Nazis. It doesn't matter an iota how many people were killed in
>the war, because the removal of the Nazi regime was a good at any
>price.
>
>5. Winston Churchill is one of the greatest men in history because
>only he realized how truly evil the Nazis were. If it wasn't for him,
>England may never gone to war with Germany and the Nazi regime might
>not have been overthrown, with consequences too terrible to even think
>about.
>
>6. Stalin was nearly as bad as Hitler, but at least he didn't try to
>exterminate the Jews and at least he helped overthrow the Nazis.
>However, he did confine many of his political enemies to gulags, which
>were pretty much the same things as concentration camps, so he was
>still very, very bad.
>
>7. Hitler and Stalin headed totalitarian regimes of right and left
>respectively.
>
>8. Because both leftwing and rightwing totalitarianism are so bad, the
>only viable political alternative to either is liberal democracy.
>
>9. Because liberal democracy overthrew Hitler and the Nazis, it proves
>just how virtuous and benevolent it is.
>
>10. You cannot say anything good about Hitler. If you do, it means you
>are a crypto-Nazi and therefore as bad as Hitler yourself.
>
>11. It is not permissible to say anything that would suggest that Nazi
>crimes were not as bad as historians maintain. If you do, it means you
>are seeking to 'minimise' Nazi crimes. Anyone who seeks to 'minimise'
>Nazi crimes has to be a crypto-Nazi. On the other hand, you are
>allowed to say that Nazi crimes were even worse than historians
>previously maintained. While it is not permissible to 'minimize' Nazi
>crimes, it is permissible, indeed actually encouraged, to maximise
>them, even if you're lying.
>
>12. It is not permissible to say anything bad about Jews, who have
>always and everywhere been totally innocent and unfairly persecuted.
>To criticise Jews is to engage in anti-semitism, and no matter how
>different the circumstances may be anti-semitism always has the
>potential to trigger another Holocaust.
>
>13. Under no circumstances can you say that WW II was fought for the
>benefit of the Jews. You have to say that it was fought for
>'democracy.'
>
>14. Since the Allies' aim was to overthrow the Nazi dictatorship,
>nothing the Allies did during the war, no matter how heinous, and
>whether it was done to the Germans or to someone else, can
>legitimately be construed as a 'war crime.' To describe an act of the
>Allies as a war crime is to suggest that there is no inherent moral
>difference between Allied acts and Nazi acts. To even suggest that the
>Allies could have committed war crimes is a sign of crypto-Nazism.
>
>15. The Nuremberg trials were a massive leap forward for human moral
>development, as war criminals were prosecuted as such for the first
>time.
>
>Of course, academic historians do not teach these dogmas in the same
>open and honest way that, say, a Catholic priest teaches the dogmas of
>the Catholic church. Rather, because students come to University
>already steeped in the modern political religion academic historians
>are free to assume them and their writings constitute large-scale
>elaborations of them. The dogmas are perpetuated not by being taught
>explicitly, but by ensuring that they are the only conclusions that
>can legitimately be drawn from history.
>
>Of all the dogmas I have just described, the only one which might be
>regarded as open to debate is whether Hitler was worse than Stalin.
>Some people would insist that Stalin was worse, since his regime
>killed many more people. However, the idea that the Holocaust is the
>most evil crime ever perpetrated tends to reinforce the conclusion
>that Hitler was worse, although the obvious implication - that Jewish
>lives are worth more than Russian lives - is left unuttered (because
>drawing attention to the fact that Jewish lives are to be regarded as
>more important than other people's lives is something that you would
>only do if you were motivated by anti-semitism).
>
>Of all the dogmas of the political religion whose caretakers academic
>historians have become, by far the most important - perhaps because
>it's also the least defensible - is dogma #3: that Hitler and the
>Nazis implemented a programme for the extermination of the Jews.
>
>Academic historians are complicit in the perpetuation of this
>political dogma mainly by omission - that is to say, by neglecting to
>do their jobs properly. They 1) overlook the fact that there is no
>material evidence to support the Holocaust hypothesis and 2) take for
>granted the authenticity of the documents which they cite, in lieu of
>material evidence, as proof that the Nazis tried to exterminate the
>Jews.
>
>Let me expand on these two points:
>
>1. The utter disregard of material evidence
>
>Academic historians normally treat material (i.e., physical) evidence
>as conclusive (unless, of course, it is subsequently proven to be
>inauthentic). For example, if a Roman map did not show a city in a
>certain location, but archaeologists discovered Roman-era ruins at
>this location, historians would conclude that there had been a city
>there in Roman times, not that the city could not possibly have been
>there because it wasn't mentioned in Roman documents. Conversely, if a
>town was drawn at an identifiable location on a Roman map and
>archaeologists had failed to turn up so much as a potsherd at that
>place, most historians would conclude that the mapmaker had made a
>mistake, not that the mapmaker was right and that all traces of the
>settlement had been obliterated by the ravages of time.
>
>Yet in the case of the Holocaust, the dearth of material evidence for
>the existence of large-scale extermination programme is not perceived
>as significant. It is assumed that the Nazis destroyed their vast
>death machinery so thoroughly as to preclude all possibility of
>postwar detection. It is not permissible to express doubts as to
>whether the Nazis could really have eliminated all material evidence
>so completely, including making the ashes of six million people vanish
>from the locations at which they must have been interred. To think
>such doubts is to engage in thought crime; and to verbalize the
>doubts, hate crime.
>
>It is therefore more acceptable for academic historians today to
>assume that the Nazis had magical powers - that is, the ability to
>make material evidence disappear beyond hope of recovery, even by
>means of the most sophisticated modern technology - than it is to
>conclude that the lack of material evidence supports the allegations
>of Holocaust revisionists.
>
>2. A cavalier attitude towards documentary evidence
>
>Given the non-existence of material evidence, documentary evidence is
>obviously critical to reasoned belief in the Holocaust. While the
>majority of the public seems happy to accept eyewitness testimonies as
>a sufficient basis for their exterminationist beliefs, for scholars
>'the faintest ink is usually a more reliable foundation for historical
>analysis than the strongest memory.'(4)
>
>Holocaust scholars seem to be divided on the question of whether
>documents exist that refer to the alleged Nazi programme for the
>extermination of the Jews. In Harvest of Hate (1979), Léon Poliakov
>specifically avers that with respect to this programme 'no documents
>have survived, perhaps none ever existed.”'(5) Yet on the back cover
>of Steve Hochstadt's Sources of the Holocaust (2004), the author
>Judith Magyar Isaacson is quoted as saying that that Hochstadt's
>collection 'documents [the Holocaust's] perpetration with painstaking
>accuracy.'
>
>Although Isaacson is clearly exaggerating here - if there were such
>documents it is hard to see how Poliakov could not have been aware of
>them - there does seem to be a growing tendency to assert that a
>corpus of Holocaust documents exists which, while far less complete
>that we would like, is nonetheless adequate for the purpose of
>affirming the existence of a Nazi extermination programme.
>
>Unfortunately, academic historians have failed to concern themselves
>with the question of the authenticity of the documents they cite as
>evidence for the Holocaust. They neglect such crucial matters as the
>provenance of the documents, the accuracy with which they have been
>translated, and whether their meanings are being construed fairly.
>
>A striking but never discussed fact about Holocaust historiography is
>that its key documents are all of unproven authenticity. Most of the
>documents academic Holocaust historians have taken to citing are, in
>fact, no more than mere transcriptions. By far the majority appeared
>for the first time during the Nuremberg trials, and were prepared for
>the court by the Documentation Division of the Office of the U.S.
>Chief of Counsel (OCC) in Paris, an organization that subsumed the
>OSS's Evidence Collection and Analysis Section in London. In other
>words, many if not most of the documents used in the Nuremberg trials
>originated with the OSS, the wartime precursor of the CIA.
>
>Very little is known about either the OSS's Evidence Collection and
>Analysis Section or the OCC's Documentation Division. Matters such as
>the provenance of the documents cited at Nuremberg are apparently of
>little interest to historians generally. To my knowledge, no
>historians go beyond the transcriptions which were used during the
>postwar war crimes trials to seek out original documents - something
>which would be inexcusable in almost any other avenue of historical
>enquiry.
>
>To be sure, one reason for this is that in most cases it is impossible
>to say where the originals are held today, if indeed they exist at
>all. Carlos Whitlock Porter, an American-born professional translator
>who apparently today lives in Germany, is the only person I know of
>who has looked into this matter, and he has established that no
>institution acknowledges possessing any original documents:
>
>'The standard version of events is that the Allies examined 100,000
>documents and chose 1,000 which were introduced into evidence, and
>that the original documents were then deposited in the Peace Palace at
>The Hague. This is rather inexact. ... The Hague has few, if any,
>original documents. The Hague has many original postwar "affidavits,"
>or sworn statements, the Tribunal Commission transcripts, and much
>valuable defense material. They have the "human soap," which has never
>been tested, and the "original human soap recipe" (Document USSR-196),
>which is a forgery; but apparently no original wartime German
>documents. ... The National Archives in Washington ... claim that the
>original documents are in The Hague. The Hague claims the original
>documents are in the National Archives. The Stadtsarchiv Nurnberg and
>the Bundesarchiv Koblenz also have no original documents, and both say
>the original documents are in Washington. Since the originals are, in
>most cases, "copies," there is often no proof that the documents in
>question ever existed.'(6)
>
>The reality, therefore, is that the bulk of the 'evidence' for the
>Holocaust derives from a corpus of documents that was expressly
>manufactured by the OSS and OCC in 1945-46 for the purpose of
>incriminating the leaders of the former German government at
>Nuremberg. The procedure went roughly along these lines: the
>Documentation Division in Paris created 'copies' (in English only),
>certified them as true, and sent them to the prosecution in Nuremberg,
>while the original documents (if they ever existed) were never seen or
>heard of again. German translations of the original English texts were
>then prepared and sent to the defense in Nuremberg, where they arrived
>as late as possible so that the defense had insufficient time to worry
>about such matters as their authenticity.
>
>Few professional historians can be unaware that original documents and
>only original documents qualify as evidence. Without access to the
>original of the document it professes to transcribe, there is no way
>for an historian to tell whether a given transcription is accurate.
>Transcriptions may conceal interpolations and excisions, while
>translations can involve interpolations, excisions, misleading
>translations and even the fabrication of entire passages. Many
>Holocaust documents can legitimately be suspected of being wholesale
>fabrications.
>
>Although many documents were certainly fabricated, the Documentation
>Division in Paris seems rarely to have been required to forge
>documents. The procedure followed at Nuremberg, which assigned
>evidentiary value to mere 'copies,' avoided the need for original
>documents. The defence, on the other hand, had no power to insist that
>original documents be used.
>
>The real problem was the risk of authentic documents coming to light
>which would contradict the fabricated documents. We can assume that as
>the Nuremberg trials proceeded authentic documents that had the
>potential to create conflicts with forged documents were secreted away
>in inaccessible locations. Given the fact that an extremely large
>proportion of the total corpus of Nazi documents remains inaccessible
>to historians even today - historians have probably never had access
>to more than a small sample of the documents captured by the Allies in
>the closing stages of the war - we can safely assume that most
>original documents that would resolve questions concerning the
>Holocaust are destined never to be made public. Many may even have
>been destroyed in order to ensure the enduring success of the hoax.
>(If it was a hoax, of course. A theoretical possibility is that
>genuine documents had to be suppressed for another reason, perhaps
>because they point to the complicity of the U.S. corporations that
>worked hand in glove with the Nazis during the war.)
>
>Another potential problem was the appearance of individuals associated
>with the Nazi regime who would have had the ability to expose the OSS/
>OCC documents as fabrications. The need to prevent this from ever
>happening would explain why, starting in May 1945 with the alleged
>suicides of SS-General Hans-Adolf Prützmann, SS head Heinrich Himmler
>and SS-General Odilo Globocnik while in British captivity, there
>followed a bizarre string of murders of individuals associated with
>the Auschwitz concentration camp. (These were perpetrated by a Jewish
>hit squad known as the DIN.) As Joseph Bellinger, author of a new book
>on Himmler's murder, points out, within six months or so of the war's
>end practically any one who could have shed light on the Jewish policy
>of the Third Reich was murdered!’(7) This, it must be said, was
>extremely convenient for the prosecution at Nuremberg.
>
>So we therefore encounter a striking paradox. Although the Holocaust
>is considered by many historians to be the central event of the 20th
>century and also one of the most important events in history, the
>standards which are applied to the study of the Holocaust are lower
>than those which would apply in, for example, a minor property dispute
>in a local court. Yet if the Holocaust is to be elevated to its
>present status as central event of the 20th century, it is obvious
>that it must meet a higher standard of proof, not a lower one.
>
>To be blunt: if historians are going to tell people that the Holocaust
>is one of the most important events in history, they better have
>overwhelming evidence to back up their extraordinary claims. So far,
>though, they have not lived up to their responsibility. Despite the
>gravity of the subject, which demands the greatest scrupulousness,
>they remain suspiciously cavalier about documenting the Holocaust, as
>though it were the one historical event that transcends the
>historian's craft.
>
>In the case of the rush to impute to the Nazis a programme for the
>extermination of millions of people which has implausibly left no
>material traces, all the normal rules of historiography seem not only
>to have been suspended, but to have been violated over and over again.
>Historians routinely cite documents from secondary works like Raul
>Hilberg's The Destruction of the European Jews (1961) or from printed
>collections of documents, such as Robert Wolfe's Holocaust: The
>Documentary Evidence - but they never cite original documents.
>
>http://www.blogigo.co.uk/socialdemocracynow/accuse-indictment-academic-historians-for-their-unprofessional/45/


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:39:40 EDT 2009
Article: 2016159 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jesus tried to warn us about the Jews -"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lust of your father ye will do."
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Sat, 2 May 2009 15:26:49 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
 wrote:

>
>"B.H. Cramer"  wrote in message 
>news:wOWdnWi1IPzb8GbUnZ2dnVY3goqdnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>
>> "Mavisbeacon"  wrote in message 
>> news:18957$49fb24f8$596480f8$20622@news.upc.ie...
>>>
>>> "Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message 
>>> news:ppslv499h7g4o9954heqdfs82loie0r6pf@4ax.com...
>>>> On Thu, 30 Apr 2009 20:34:37 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
>>>>  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message
>>>>>news:ljojv41b00q38lqjojjl16cp8sg2vhcv34@4ax.com...
>>>>>> On Thu, 30 Apr 2009 16:49:00 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
>>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message
>>>>>>>news:u84ev498qnsb7arf8ouceg7mptf2tjbuiv@4ax.com...
>>>>>>>> On Tue, 28 Apr 2009 02:38:57 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
>>>>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>"Mavisbeacon"  wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>news:26ad5$49f59a2b$596480f8$9758@news.upc.ie...
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>> news:ftk9v4pvi7c33reejkug2gql8snht54uqt@4ax.com...
>>>>>>>>>>>I repeat, there is no record of Christ's existence anywhere except 
>>>>>>>>>>>the
>>>>>>>>>>> New Testament. If you find some, you will become world famous
>>>>>>>>>>> overnight.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>WELL?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Now that you were shown it what have you to say?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You haven't shown me anything worth squat. Church babble centuries
>>>>>>>> after the fact doesn't cut it. You have no independent evidence.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Clement of Rome (c. 100),Ignatius of Antioch (c. 107-110), Justin 
>>>>>>>Martyr.
>>>>>>>Papias of Hierapolis
>>>>>>>Quadratus of Athens
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Josephus, Tacitus,
>>>>>>>Suetonius, and Pliny the Younger.
>>>>>>>(All Late first or early second century and NONE of them Christian)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> OK, I'm game. What did Tacitus write that was unambiguously about
>>>>>> Jesus?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>LOL! I note you added "unambiguous"! The point isnt whether Jesus 
>>>>>Christed
>>>>>existed! The point you made what that no evidence outside of the New
>>>>>Testament esists! You were wrong!
>>>>
>>>> It isn't too bloody likely that I'm wrong. You are just the victim of
>>>> a rather primitive American education.
>>>
>>> My education is not a matter of debate. Nor would it matter .
>>
>> It most certainly does matter, dearie. You have given every indication 
>> your education was basic if not all but non-existent. You are capable of 
>> nothing else but introducing red herrings into debate and whining.
>
>I submit you couldnt distinguish between a red herring and a kipper.
>Ad hominem is not debate. 
>
Nobody is debating you, Mavis.

People are stating their beliefs and the reasons for those beliefs. If
you cannot accept the reasons, then tough. Nobody owes you an
explanation, let alone a proof. You invited yourself here unwanted,
and you are also free to leave any time.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:39:41 EDT 2009
Article: 2016160 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust "Victims" Count - What variance - Cremation data.
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Sat, 2 May 2009 15:21:22 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
 wrote:

>
>"B.H. Cramer"  wrote in message 
>news:vNydnasOSJQ282bUnZ2dnVY3goudnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>
>> "Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message 
>> news:eatlv4t0edm4o45gsvm0ncied1svv0dkdh@4ax.com...
>>> On Fri, 1 May 2009 08:11:45 +1000, "B.H. Cramer"
>>>  wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>"Mavisbeacon"  wrote in message
>>>>news:b1a69$49f99dd4$596480f8$22128@news.upc.ie...
>>>>>
>>>>> "B.H. Cramer"  wrote in message
>>>>> news:46GdnSA0oK5A7mTUnZ2dnVY3goydnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Mavisbeacon"  wrote in message
>>>>>> news:4c71f$49f96963$596480f8$9879@news.upc.ie...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "B.H. Cramer"  wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:G9qdnU9faI8XoGTUnZ2dnVY3gomdnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Gord McFee"  wrote in message
>>>>>>>> news:eq2iv4hs7ehnmij0gebt3pla3u232qls8e@4ax.com...
>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 29 Apr 2009 15:20:11 +1000, in
>>>>>>>>> , "B.H. Cramer"
>>>>>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "Anonymous"  wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>> news:02df9c5c5b991ab6c90cef0560f4482d@mixmaster.nymu.eu...
>>>>>>>>>> > On Tue, 28 Apr 2009 12:22:29 +0000, Truthseeker wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> >>> I am of the opinion that you are a Holocaust denier, that you
>>>>>>>>>> >>> know that
>>>>>>>>>> >>> if you openly state on an international stage that that is the
>>>>>>>>>> >>> case you
>>>>>>>>>> >>> can be arrested by international warrant
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> > I live in the USA. If I think that the holohoax is a crock of 
>>>>>>>>>> > shit
>>>>>>>>>> > and
>>>>>>>>>> > say so here, are you telling me that if I am identified today, 
>>>>>>>>>> > and
>>>>>>>>>> > visit
>>>>>>>>>> > Germany or Austria in the future, I can be arrested there for
>>>>>>>>>> > 'denying
>>>>>>>>>> > the holohoax' or whatever it is called?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Publish your thoughts along those lines and yes, you can be 
>>>>>>>>>> arrested
>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>> Germany and many other countries for dissing the Holocaust(tm).
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> > And that can happen even though it is legal in the USA to say 
>>>>>>>>>> > the
>>>>>>>>>> > holohaox is a crock of shit?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Even in the US you will get your arse canned if you make too much
>>>>>>>>>> noise
>>>>>>>>>> about questioning the Holocaust(tm).  Many academics have found 
>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>> out -
>>>>>>>>>> the hard way.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Not that you can name one and prove it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You lying old turd. Butz and Finkelstein come immediately to mind.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Who are Butz and Finkelsein , what academic credentials do they have 
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> how were they "canned" for questioning the Holocaust?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You really are as dumb as a box of rocks, girlie.
>>>>>
>>>>> You mentioned the names Butz and Finkelsein as cases of academics being
>>>>> canned and you can't actually support your own claim.
>>>>
>>>>What the fuck are you blathering about?
>>>
>>> She probably would have difficulty distinguishing her arse from a hole
>>> in the wall. I figure that interactions with her are a waste of time.
>>> She just doesn't know anything about the subject at hand.
>>
>> She has a single trick. That of trying to bend the conversation to the 
>> only topic she seems interested it - Socrates and Alexander.
>>
>Not at all. I picked Socrates and Alexander because they were about the same 
>time as Jesus.

LOL, that sums up the quality of your stuff. Socrates was born 469 BC
and died around 400 BC, so he was hardly a contemporary of Christ.
Alexander was born 356 BC and died 323 BC. By your loose time-keeping
you could claim to be a contemporary of Shakespeare. You're a total
arsehole and you are now going on my ignore file.

Bye







> It arose out of you pals WRONG claim abut "no evidence of 
>Jesus outside of the New Testament" I produced evidence and he tried to jump 
>through all sorts of hoops and change his original claim! But then I picked 
>someone from that time who is world famous Socrates. Or Alexander if you 
>wish. Anyone from ancient history would do. Pilate for example. how do you 
>know he existed? Or any king of any City from 300 BC to the time of Christ? 
>When faced with supplying ORIGINAL writings from the time that person was 
>alive or by someone else who was alive when they were (which was asked as 
>evidence for Jesus) he utterly failed to produce ANY!
>
>You haven't much of a clue about historical scholarship and revisionism!
>
>The more general point being made was that apart from denying the WWII 
>Holocaust you seemed incapable of discussing anything else in history. No 
>wonder. when faced with discussing any other historical event you are shown 
>up as inept! 
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:39:41 EDT 2009
Article: 2016162 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust "Victims" Count - What variance - Cremation data.
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
Message-ID: 
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On Sun, 3 May 2009 21:19:25 +1000, "B.H. Cramer"
 wrote:

>
>"Mavisbeacon"  wrote in message 
>news:2689d$49fd6aea$596480f8$9807@news.upc.ie...
>>
>> "B.H. Cramer"  wrote in message 
>> news:vNydnasOSJQ282bUnZ2dnVY3goudnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>
>>> "Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message 
>>> news:eatlv4t0edm4o45gsvm0ncied1svv0dkdh@4ax.com...
>>>> On Fri, 1 May 2009 08:11:45 +1000, "B.H. Cramer"
>>>>  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>"Mavisbeacon"  wrote in message
>>>>>news:b1a69$49f99dd4$596480f8$22128@news.upc.ie...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "B.H. Cramer"  wrote in message
>>>>>> news:46GdnSA0oK5A7mTUnZ2dnVY3goydnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Mavisbeacon"  wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:4c71f$49f96963$596480f8$9879@news.upc.ie...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "B.H. Cramer"  wrote in message
>>>>>>>> news:G9qdnU9faI8XoGTUnZ2dnVY3gomdnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "Gord McFee"  wrote in message
>>>>>>>>> news:eq2iv4hs7ehnmij0gebt3pla3u232qls8e@4ax.com...
>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 29 Apr 2009 15:20:11 +1000, in
>>>>>>>>>> , "B.H. Cramer"
>>>>>>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> "Anonymous"  wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>>> news:02df9c5c5b991ab6c90cef0560f4482d@mixmaster.nymu.eu...
>>>>>>>>>>> > On Tue, 28 Apr 2009 12:22:29 +0000, Truthseeker wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> I am of the opinion that you are a Holocaust denier, that you
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> know that
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> if you openly state on an international stage that that is 
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> case you
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> can be arrested by international warrant
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> > I live in the USA. If I think that the holohoax is a crock of 
>>>>>>>>>>> > shit
>>>>>>>>>>> > and
>>>>>>>>>>> > say so here, are you telling me that if I am identified today, 
>>>>>>>>>>> > and
>>>>>>>>>>> > visit
>>>>>>>>>>> > Germany or Austria in the future, I can be arrested there for
>>>>>>>>>>> > 'denying
>>>>>>>>>>> > the holohoax' or whatever it is called?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Publish your thoughts along those lines and yes, you can be 
>>>>>>>>>>> arrested
>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>> Germany and many other countries for dissing the Holocaust(tm).
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> > And that can happen even though it is legal in the USA to say 
>>>>>>>>>>> > the
>>>>>>>>>>> > holohaox is a crock of shit?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Even in the US you will get your arse canned if you make too much
>>>>>>>>>>> noise
>>>>>>>>>>> about questioning the Holocaust(tm).  Many academics have found 
>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>> out -
>>>>>>>>>>> the hard way.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Not that you can name one and prove it.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You lying old turd. Butz and Finkelstein come immediately to mind.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Who are Butz and Finkelsein , what academic credentials do they have 
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> how were they "canned" for questioning the Holocaust?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You really are as dumb as a box of rocks, girlie.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You mentioned the names Butz and Finkelsein as cases of academics 
>>>>>> being
>>>>>> canned and you can't actually support your own claim.
>>>>>
>>>>>What the fuck are you blathering about?
>>>>
>>>> She probably would have difficulty distinguishing her arse from a hole
>>>> in the wall. I figure that interactions with her are a waste of time.
>>>> She just doesn't know anything about the subject at hand.
>>>
>>> She has a single trick. That of trying to bend the conversation to the 
>>> only topic she seems interested it - Socrates and Alexander.
>>>
>> Not at all. I picked Socrates and Alexander because they were about the 
>> same time as Jesus.
>
>You tried to deflect the conversation.
>
>That is called deceit.
>
It is also ridiculous, since Alexander died more than three centuries
before the traditional date for Christ's birth, and Socrates more than
four centuries earlier.

Poor Mavis is totally clueless.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:39:41 EDT 2009
Article: 2016163 of alt.revisionism
Path: border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-in-01.newsfeed.easynews.com!easynews!core-easynews-01!easynews.com!en-nntp-01.dc1.easynews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust "Victims" Count - What variance - Cremation data.
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
Message-ID: <6vjrv45kp214eei7hauh27t8q7t8ktgif2@4ax.com>
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On Sun, 3 May 2009 21:19:47 +1000, "B.H. Cramer"
 wrote:

>
>"Mavisbeacon"  wrote in message 
>news:3ecee$49fd6aeb$596480f8$9807@news.upc.ie...
>>
>> "B.H. Cramer"  wrote in message 
>> news:jOCdnZ3micR78GbUnZ2dnVY3goqdnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>
>>> "Mavisbeacon"  wrote in message 
>>> news:8bc$49fb1199$596480f8$2935@news.upc.ie...
>>>>
>>>> "B.H. Cramer"  wrote in message 
>>>> news:YZudnUjBfNBYJGfUnZ2dnVY3goWdnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>>>
>>>>> "Mavisbeacon"  wrote in message 
>>>>> news:958b2$49fab519$596480f8$5225@news.upc.ie...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "B.H. Cramer"  wrote in message 
>>>>>> news:IqydndxifJbHuWfUnZ2dnVY3gomdnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> [snip]
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Even in the US you will get your arse canned if you make too 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> much noise
>>>>>>>>>>>>> about questioning the Holocaust(tm).  Many academics have found 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>> out -
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the hard way.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Not that you can name one and prove it.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> You lying old turd. Butz and Finkelstein come immediately to 
>>>>>>>>>>> mind.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Who are Butz and Finkelsein
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Holy fucking Moly, woman, do some research. Why are you wasting our
>>>>>>>>> time?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Why don't you do some research and look up the phrase "burden of 
>>>>>>>> evidence"?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Why don't you ever support your
>>>>>> > shite with evidence, twat.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I do -
>>>>>> http://www.geocities.com/xenu_rules/misc-burden-of-proof.html
>>>>>> http://education.gsu.edu/spehar/FOCUS/EdPsy/misc/Fallacies.htm
>>>>>> http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/burden-of-proof.html
>>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance#Burden_of_proof
>>>>>> http://www.zionism-israel.com/Fallacies/burden-of-proof.html
>>>>>> http://www.sjsu.edu/depts/itl/graphics/adhom/burden.html
>>>>>
>>>>> Then shut the fuck up and find what was done to Finkelstein and Butz 
>>>>> for yourself.
>>>>
>>>> The above supports the position that THE PERSON MAKING THE CLAIM - i.e. 
>>>> = YOU has to support their claim!
>>>
>>> You first, twat.
>>
>> sorry NO! You don't seem to understand logic.
>
>BBBWWWAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
>
>
LOL

Meanie! We all know that the poor woman is an airhead, but it isn't
nice to laugh at the disabled.

ROTFLMAO


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:39:42 EDT 2009
Article: 2016164 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust "Victims" Count - What variance - Cremation data.
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
Message-ID: 
References: <4c71f$49f96963$596480f8$9879@news.upc.ie>  <1cdf0$49f9fd65$596480f8$16053@news.upc.ie>  <958b2$49fab519$596480f8$5225@news.upc.ie>    <5f2f6$49fd6aed$596480f8$9807@news.upc.ie> 
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On Sun, 3 May 2009 21:20:44 +1000, "B.H. Cramer"
 wrote:

>
>"Mavisbeacon"  wrote in message 
>news:5f2f6$49fd6aed$596480f8$9807@news.upc.ie...
>>
>> "B.H. Cramer"  wrote in message 
>> news:WoqdnYp_2L2P8mbUnZ2dnVY3gomdnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>
>>> "Mavisbeacon"  wrote in message 
>>> news:ee073$49fb24f4$596480f8$20622@news.upc.ie...
>>>>
>>>> "Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message 
>>>> news:ugtlv49bgqgfmhhsvt3ebugvc727nbvla9@4ax.com...
>>>>> On Fri, 1 May 2009 09:12:23 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>"B.H. Cramer"  wrote in message
>>>>>>news:IqydndxifJbHuWfUnZ2dnVY3gomdnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>[snip]
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Even in the US you will get your arse canned if you make too 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> much
>>>>>>>>>>>>> noise
>>>>>>>>>>>>> about questioning the Holocaust(tm).  Many academics have found 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>> out -
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the hard way.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Not that you can name one and prove it.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> You lying old turd. Butz and Finkelstein come immediately to 
>>>>>>>>>>> mind.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Who are Butz and Finkelsein
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Holy fucking Moly, woman, do some research. Why are you wasting our
>>>>>>>>> time?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Why don't you do some research and look up the phrase "burden of
>>>>>>>> evidence"?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Why don't you ever support your
>>>>>> > shite with evidence, twat.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I do -
>>>>>>http://www.geocities.com/xenu_rules/misc-burden-of-proof.html
>>>>>>http://education.gsu.edu/spehar/FOCUS/EdPsy/misc/Fallacies.htm
>>>>>>http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/burden-of-proof.html
>>>>>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance#Burden_of_proof
>>>>>>http://www.zionism-israel.com/Fallacies/burden-of-proof.html
>>>>>>http://www.sjsu.edu/depts/itl/graphics/adhom/burden.html
>>>>>>
>>>>> Nizkor's propaganda offerings don't quite make it as "evidence" of
>>>>> anything except that the holocaustT industry has a lot of money at its
>>>>> disposal.
>>>>
>>>
>> The Nizkor definition happens to agree with and antiscientology 
>> definition,
>> two  third level educational institutiona and wikipedia.
>
>Que? Looks like English but I can't understand a word of it.
>>
>> They are all Jewish too I suppose?
>> One can look at christian sites (NOT JEWISH) and especially atheist sites
>> (also non Jewish) for similar definitions!
>>
>> LOL! What a joke you are making of yourself.
>
>So sorry, dearie. That would be you.
>
>
>
>>
>>
>> 
Her gobble-de-gook is reminiscent of "Doc Tony". Perhaps the "Doc" has
taken to wearing dresses?


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:39:42 EDT 2009
Article: 2016165 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Historical revisionism is the great intellectual adventure of the end of the 20th century. R. Faurisson.
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Sun, 3 May 2009 11:09:48 +1000, "B.H. Cramer"
 wrote:

>
>"ZuLu"  wrote in message 
>news:49fcc76b$1@news.x-privat.org...
>> Of course, for myself I would never have known what is revisionism without 
>> the public bashing of Roger Garaudy and the Abbe Pierre in France.
>
>I would never have known of revisionism had it not been for the likes of 
>mcFey, mcFee, wolk, goldman, salzman, roger et al, who attacked me en masse 
>when I dared ask a couple of innocuous questions about their precious 
>Holocaust(tm).
>
>I wonder how many other revisionists/doubters they have created directly as 
>a result of their insane obsession with defending the indefensible, their 
>overt hatred and their nastiness?

The mcfee/mcvay crew is the closest thing one can have to a "denier
factory" since they are so good at alienating people. It is pretty
hard to warm up to the shrill hysteria emanating from those two. If
one had no doubts beforehand, one certainly will have them after being
subjected to those two clowns.

>
>
>
>
>>
>> As the reason of such treatment was never given on the media (beside 
>> naming him a "negationist"), that fact awoke my curiosity about the topic 
>> and I read the Garaudy's book on the net "The Founding Myths of Israeli 
>> Politic".
>>
>> That started my interest for the technical aspect of the "gas chambers". 
>> It was a revelation for me.
>>
>> The Garaudy's affair in France, 1996.
>>
>> Reply to the Media Lynching of Abbe Pierre and Roger Garaudy, 1996
>> http://www.radioislam.net/islam/english/books/garaudy/zimythgarpamph1.htm
>>
>> The Founding Myths of Israeli Politic by Roger Garaudy
>> http://www.codoh.com/zionweb/zionmythgar.html
>>
>> Truthseeker escribió:
>>> I just wonder who they will victimise next who is questioning the 
>>> holocaust. They claim making public the holocaust is creating hatred jet 
>>> it is them who continue with their hate mongering forever. forcing others 
>>> who are questioning the holocaust is counter productive.
>>> Kurt Knoll.
>>>
>>> Kurt Knoll
>>>
>> 


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:39:42 EDT 2009
Article: 2016166 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: why heinrich is still very sad
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
Message-ID: <06lrv4dlelo8nq2f4k4n5s0h0ifrp0qj56@4ax.com>
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On Sun, 3 May 2009 11:05:14 +0200, "Heinrich" 
wrote:

>
>"I'll Always Be 3/05/09"  schreef in bericht 
>news:aussies_suck-BAA669.01574703052009@aries.ka.weretis.net...
>> In article
>> <764p2qF1a6iapU1@mid.individual.net>,
>> "Heinrich" 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> "I'll Always Be 3/05/09"  schreef in 
>>> bericht
>>> news:aussies_suck-7E6DB1.21582202052009@aries.ka.weretis.net...
>>> > In article
>>> > <764k92F1atu0nU2@mid.individual.net>,
>>> > "Heinrich" 
>>> > wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> "I'll Always Be 2/05/09"  schreef in
>>> >> bericht
>>> >> news:aussies_suck-3B4653.10551802052009@aries.ka.weretis.net...
>>> >> > In article
>>> >> > <762hm7F1aspbiU1@mid.individual.net>,
>>> >> > "Heinrich" 
>>> >> > wrote:
>>> >> >
>>> >> >> The attack on the royal family
>>> >> >> during the Queen's Day
>>> >> >> celebrations means the day will
>>> >> >> never be the same again, according
>>> >> >> to editorials and comment in the
>>> >> >> Dutch newspapers.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> 'A national illusion died in
>>> >> >> Apeldoorn,' is the headline on a
>>> >> >> Volkskrant article on the attack.
>>> >> >> 'We will never see it like this
>>> >> >> again, a queen and her family,
>>> >> >> free and approachable... A
>>> >> >> national illusion died on April
>>> >> >> 30, 2009... the party of folklore
>>> >> >> - the only real national day of
>>> >> >> celebration - has been hit hard.'
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> 'The collection of curiosities in
>>> >> >> the category 'only in the
>>> >> >> Netherlands' is one attraction
>>> >> >> poorer. Foreigners who are
>>> >> >> surprised by ministers who cycle
>>> >> >> to their offices, a prime minister
>>> >> >> eating a herring alone at the fish
>>> >> >> stall next to parliament - it is
>>> >> >> all gone,' the paper states.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> Symbol of unity
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> The Financieele Dagblad says
>>> >> >> events in Apeldoorn were an
>>> >> >> 'attack on a vulnerable symbol of
>>> >> >> unity'.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Your vision of unity is as corrupt as
>>> >> > your postings. Welcome to reality.
>>> >> >
>>> >> it  has an enourmous inpact on this society my friend
>>> >
>>> > Sorry, but the idea of royalty died out
>>> > centuries ago.
>>>  tell that to napoleon bonaparta if he had not lost the battle of 
>>> waterloo
>>> we would never have had a royalty
>>
>> Blame who you want, but royalty is just
>> so old fashioned and worthless
> the same can be told about a presidency, royalty is part ofour local 
>culture. it cost a lot ofmoney but so is it also when you have a president. 

Heads of state are always expensive, regardless of the format that the
office takes. Having a republic in England, for example, would
probably not save that much money.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:39:43 EDT 2009
Article: 2016167 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: WW II : RARE COLOR FILM : BATTLE FOR GERMANY
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Sat, 2 May 2009 13:32:48 -0700 (PDT), george 
wrote:

>On May 2, 10:34 pm, StarDust  wrote:
>
>The usual revisionist rubbish ignoring those films taken at the death
>camps when they were liberated...
>
>And the Germans usage of total war came back to haunt them at the end.
>Look up Nancy Wake.
>Her only regret was that she hadn't killed enough Germans at the end
>of the war
>

Thanks for trotting out low-lifes such as Nancy Wake, since it makes
me even more certain that your stories constitute a hoax. All your
accusations against National Socialist officials amount to naught when
you trot out even worse people on the allied side.



From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:39:43 EDT 2009
Article: 2016168 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: WW II : RARE COLOR FILM : BATTLE FOR GERMANY
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
Message-ID: 
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On Sat, 2 May 2009 21:42:58 -0700 (PDT), george 
wrote:

>On May 3, 9:00 am, StarDust  wrote:
>> On May 2, 1:32 pm, george  wrote:
>>
>> > On May 2, 10:34 pm, StarDust  wrote:
>>
>> > The usual revisionist rubbish ignoring those films taken at the death
>> > camps when they were liberated...
>>
>> You mean those Allie propaganda films?
>> Delousing chamber at Dachau, presented as gas chamber?
>> Typhus victims at Bergen Belsen, presented as German's mass murder?
>> Time wake up little Holo boy!
>
>Riiiight. All those incredibly thin people were just pretending that
>they were starving eh ?

Your usual argument is that they were gassed, and now suddenly you're
singing a different tune. The corpses shown in the "liberation"
photographs were clearly not gassed. No victim of gassing has ever
been found.

>
>> > And the Germans usage of total war came back to haunt them at the end.
>>
>> You are a loony guy, German total war was forced upon them, by the
>> Brits, French and Russia.
>
>Germany invaded Poland!

So did the USSR, but they are entitled to as much Polish land as they
wish, whereas Germany reclaiming stolen territory is the crime of the
millennium. Allied stories are almost always hypocritical and
inconsistent.

>After they were told that such an action would lead to war.

The NS officials were clearly mistaken when they figured that the
leaders in France and Britain had IQs larger than their shoe size. The
Anglo-French action destroyed both the British and the French empires,
which is likely the exact reason that Roosevelt encouraged them to go
that route in the first place. After all the smoke had cleared, it was
the USA that was now the world hegemon and not Britain any longer.





From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:39:43 EDT 2009
Article: 2016331 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jesus tried to warn us about the Jews -"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lust of your father ye will do."
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Mon, 4 May 2009 09:47:48 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
 wrote:

>
>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message 
>news:k0jrv4dcckktb7tvt0vj181gt6sk5jete5@4ax.com...
>> On Sat, 2 May 2009 15:26:49 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
>>  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"B.H. Cramer"  wrote in message
>>>news:wOWdnWi1IPzb8GbUnZ2dnVY3goqdnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>>
>>>> "Mavisbeacon"  wrote in message
>>>> news:18957$49fb24f8$596480f8$20622@news.upc.ie...
>>>>>
>>>>> "Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message
>>>>> news:ppslv499h7g4o9954heqdfs82loie0r6pf@4ax.com...
>>>>>> On Thu, 30 Apr 2009 20:34:37 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
>>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message
>>>>>>>news:ljojv41b00q38lqjojjl16cp8sg2vhcv34@4ax.com...
>>>>>>>> On Thu, 30 Apr 2009 16:49:00 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
>>>>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>news:u84ev498qnsb7arf8ouceg7mptf2tjbuiv@4ax.com...
>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 28 Apr 2009 02:38:57 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
>>>>>>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>"Mavisbeacon"  wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>>>news:26ad5$49f59a2b$596480f8$9758@news.upc.ie...
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> "Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>>>> news:ftk9v4pvi7c33reejkug2gql8snht54uqt@4ax.com...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>I repeat, there is no record of Christ's existence anywhere 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>except
>>>>>>>>>>>>>the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> New Testament. If you find some, you will become world famous
>>>>>>>>>>>>> overnight.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>WELL?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>Now that you were shown it what have you to say?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> You haven't shown me anything worth squat. Church babble centuries
>>>>>>>>>> after the fact doesn't cut it. You have no independent evidence.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Clement of Rome (c. 100),Ignatius of Antioch (c. 107-110), Justin
>>>>>>>>>Martyr.
>>>>>>>>>Papias of Hierapolis
>>>>>>>>>Quadratus of Athens
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Josephus, Tacitus,
>>>>>>>>>Suetonius, and Pliny the Younger.
>>>>>>>>>(All Late first or early second century and NONE of them Christian)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> OK, I'm game. What did Tacitus write that was unambiguously about
>>>>>>>> Jesus?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>LOL! I note you added "unambiguous"! The point isnt whether Jesus
>>>>>>>Christed
>>>>>>>existed! The point you made what that no evidence outside of the New
>>>>>>>Testament esists! You were wrong!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It isn't too bloody likely that I'm wrong. You are just the victim of
>>>>>> a rather primitive American education.
>>>>>
>>>>> My education is not a matter of debate. Nor would it matter .
>>>>
>>>> It most certainly does matter, dearie. You have given every indication
>>>> your education was basic if not all but non-existent. You are capable of
>>>> nothing else but introducing red herrings into debate and whining.
>>>
>>>I submit you couldnt distinguish between a red herring and a kipper.
>>>Ad hominem is not debate.
>>>
>> Nobody is debating you, Mavis.
>
>Who is this "nobody" whom you claim is debating me?
>
>>
>> People are stating their beliefs and the reasons for those beliefs.
>
>I haven't seen any coherent REASONS yet! where are they?
>
>>If
>> you cannot accept the reasons, then tough.
>
>Nothing to do with me. If they are REASONED they should stand on their own!
>
>>Nobody owes you an
>> explanation, let alone a proof.
>
>Sorry but if it is reasonable then you owe REASON the evidence and proof!
>
>>You invited yourself here unwanted,
>> and you are also free to leave any time.
>
>So what? You don't own the internet now do you Netcop naziboi?

Insults from an ignorant Catholic cunt don't wash. I am neither Nazi
(vanished before my time) nor am I a boi, but factual details have
never been a high priority for Catholic cunts.

>
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:39:44 EDT 2009
Article: 2016334 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "Smith" and the Auschwitz camp complex. 13 reasons to not swallow the HOAX.
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Mon, 4 May 2009 11:38:51 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
 wrote:

>
>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message 
>news:in8pv41ma9o9k0ibtf63r9nnejkh8o88s6@4ax.com...
>> On Fri, 1 May 2009 13:11:23 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
>>  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message
>>>news:8pnlv4dafhq0vlco145avvjt0o16ui7a44@4ax.com...
>>>> On Thu, 30 Apr 2009 20:40:44 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
>>>>  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message
>>>>>news:hvjjv4tca7d4pu4jaiuslksahecnr1hgtq@4ax.com...
>>>>>> On Wed, 29 Apr 2009 13:10:27 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
>>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>; "please"  wrote in message
>>>>>>>news:gt6bse$fem$1@pcls4.std.com...
>>>>>>>> In article ,
>>>>>>>> B.H. Cramer  wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There are photos of everything else from WWII,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There is not one single photo of Soviet soldiers either
>>>>>>>> "killing" or "raping" German civilians.  None.  Zero.
>>>>>>>> Zilch.  Nada.  Nothing.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Or of Jesus or Socrates or Alexander the Great!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> LOL, Mavis, you don't suppose that part of the reason for that was
>>>>>> that photography wasn't invented until the middle of the 19th century,
>>>>>
>>>>>I am well aware of anachronisms. You seem to have missed the point
>>>>>entirely.
>>>>>Historical anachronisms necessitate an absence of evidence of that type.
>>>>>This absence of evidence is not evidence of absence of the events or
>>>>>people
>>>>>mentioned!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> well before the time of Jesus, Socrates, or Alexander. Of these three,
>>>>>> only Socrates and Alexander have independent verification of their
>>>>>> existence.
>>>>>
>>>>>But while you demand certain rules for evidence for Jesus in history you
>>>>>have DIFFERENT rules for Alexander or Socrates! and even then you have 
>>>>>yet
>>>>>to produce a single historical reference form even 150 years after
>>>>>Alexander
>>>>>or Socrates let alone during their life. How do you know Socrates for
>>>>>example was not invented by Plato?
>>>>
>>>> Your abysmal ignorance of classical antiquity isn't my problem.
>>>
>>>But YES IT IS!
>>>
>>>You are the one saying that you have evidence for alexander from the Time 
>>>of
>>>alexander and that it is commonplace. But you have not produced any while 
>>>at
>>>the same time asking me to produce evidence contemporary to Jesus from
>>>outside the New Testament. I did that! You didnt do it for Alexander or
>>>Socrates!
>>>
>>>> There
>>>> are all manner of pieces of evidence out there that testify to the
>>>> physical existence of both Plato and Alexander the Great.
>>>
>>>Really? Can you produce a single contemporary doccument by socrates or by
>>>someone else when they were alive about Socrates or alexander? I' ll bet 
>>>you
>>>cant! In spite of "all manner" of evidence you havent a single 
>>>contemporary
>>>doccument. Yet you expect to apply these rules to Jesus' existance in
>>>history?
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Jesus Christ, on the other hand, is RELIGION, translated as ignorance,
>>>> superstition, fables, myths, and faith.
>>>
>>>WRONG! The historicity of Jesus and the alleged divinlty of Jesus are two
>>>DIFFERENT issues.
>>
>> This is true. You need to show that the guy existed in any form before
>> you can start on the "Jesus is god incarnate" hypothesis.
>
>Actually no you don't! In fact anti materialists Aryan heretics had this 
>position in the very early Church.
>But that is a different issue altogether.
>I didn't make any claims about divinity and asked you several times not to 
>mix up the two.
>YOU made the claim "no evidence outside of the New Testament" for the 
>existance of Jesus in history.
>You were entirely WRONG on this!

I am not wrong in this. You are simply full of shit, like most RC
propagandists.




> you tried to change it into: no written 
>evidence; no evidence from someone at the time of Jesus; no existing 
>writings from that time; no writings by someone who had actually met Jesus.
>
>Your ORIGINAL CLAIM was "no evidence outside of the New Testament" for the 
>existance of Jesus in history.
>
>It was WRONG!
>
>And in addition your trying to change thisgs is exposed in that you can not 
>live up to these criteria for other people in ancient history like Socrates 
>or alexander the Great. Pick someone else Plato Archimedes, Herod Antipas. 
>You seem to have no idea of historical shcolarship. So how can you call 
>yourself a revisionist?
>
>
>>
>>>You are aware Alexander the Great was regarded as a god too? Does that 
>>>mean
>>>that because such fables of alexander being super natural existed that you
>>>can conclude alexander never existed?
>>
>> I don't believe that Alexander was a "god", other than in the minds of
>> his subjects.
>
>But you dismiss the followers of Jesus being Christians? You claim Jesus 
>never existed but Christians did? So how can you not accept using the same 
>standards for alexander or Socrates? Could not the story of Socrates have 
>been "made up"? What better evidence have you got of scorates then you have 
>of Jesus? Yet you apply DOUBLE STANDARDS and insist Jesus didn't exist but 
>Socrates did!
>
>>
>>> Why do you apply DIFFERENT STANDARDS
>>>to the historicity of Jesus that you apply to alexander?
>>
>> Nobody outside of Christian cult circles had heard of Christ, at least
>> not until the cult became big business.
>
>You have produced NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER that people had heard of Socrates 
>let alone that they had met him and that he actually existed!
>
>and you are clearly WRONG! you have been shown NON CHRISTIAN and heretical 
>christian references ALL of which are OUTSIDE the main Christian Church! It 
>is also quite clear that even BEFORE Christ Jews had been teaching of a 
>Messiah for centuries.They had written it down and referred to one.
>
>>Lots of people knew of
>> Alexander, especially the King of Persia who kept suffering defeats at
>> his hands.
>
>REally? And you have some evidence from Darius have you? Any writings? So 
>how do you know Darius or Xerces wrote of Alexander? You have no records 
>have you? Nort even ONEpiece of information. LOL will you refer to the 
>Jewish Old Testament Books I wonder? I doubt you even know the Jewish name.
>
>>
>>>
>>>> ALL human religions have the same validity, which is to say "not
>>>> much".
>>>
>>>Which has NOTHING to do with you being WRONG about your claim for no
>>>historical evidence for Jesus outside of the New Testament!
>>
>> Evidence for Jesus is all within the cult. There is nothing outside
>> the cult that can't be demolished in a few seconds.
>
>REally? Then how come you have not provided a single counter argument or 
>refutation to the non mainstrean christians' the non christians, the Jews 
>athiests pagans and roman (non roman catholic) writers artists historians 
>and others to whom I have referred? Who happen to Agree with the mainstream 
>Christian historians I might add!
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:39:44 EDT 2009
Article: 2016336 of alt.revisionism
Path: border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-in-01.newsfeed.easynews.com!easynews!core-easynews-01!easynews.com!en-nntp-03.dc1.easynews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Why Gun Confiscation In America Is A Bad Idea
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Mon, 4 May 2009 08:34:31 +1000, "B.H. Cramer"
 wrote:

>
>"Gord McFee"  wrote in message 
>news:kf6sv45j667dj9dpaslvtrqvv2hpu6agr0@4ax.com...
>> On Sat, 02 May 2009 15:56:29 -0400, in
>> , Johannes von Ebersdorf
>>  wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, 3 May 2009 00:05:19 +1000, "B.H. Cramer"
>>>  wrote:
>>>
>>> >"Gord McFee"  wrote in message
>>> >news:l6kov4dka3c2sak6qrciggp09abcqagje2@4ax.com...
>>> >> On Fri, 01 May 2009 08:45:30 -0400, in
>>> >> , Johannes von Ebersdorf
>>> >>  wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >>> On Fri, 1 May 2009 08:04:22 +1000, "B.H. Cramer"
>>> >>>  wrote:
>>> >>>
>>> >>> >"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message
>>> >>> >news:qdjjv49t0tts0i4jkga23qg2ld1jgf9mvh@4ax.com...
>>> >>> >> On Thu, 30 Apr 2009 16:02:55 +1000, "B.H. Cramer"
>>> >>> >>  wrote:
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>>
>>> >>> >>>"Gord McFee"  wrote in message
>>> >>> >>>news:jA7Kl.238816$UR4.55594@en-nntp-09.dc1.easynews.com...
>>> >>> >>>> On 4/29/2009 1:30 AM, B.H. Cramer wrote:
>>> >>> >>>>> "Gord McFee"  wrote in message
>>> >>> >>>>> news:ifdfv4pf4pnjhn0qdqtg150sva8g90vcum@4ax.com...
>>> >>> >>>>>> On Tue, 28 Apr 2009 17:46:56 +1000, in
>>> >>> >>>>>> <2ZidnfbLgdbpKWvUnZ2dnVY3goWdnZ2d@giganews.com>, "B.H. Cramer"
>>> >>> >>>>>>  wrote:
>>> >>> >>>>>>
>>> >>> >>>>>>> "Gord McFee"  wrote in message
>>> >>> >>>>>>> news:kllcv4hc8ob7moit5asj7nuhlkrp08gqfq@4ax.com...
>>> >>> >>>>>>>> On Mon, 27 Apr 2009 21:09:57 +1000, in
>>> >>> >>>>>>>> , "B.H. 
>>> >>> >>>>>>>> Cramer"
>>> >>> >>>>>>>>  wrote:
>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> "Gord McFee"  wrote in message
>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> news:2p69v4lp93oda5d3um74qpeeb72hg6fk5q@4ax.com...
>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 26 Apr 2009 05:58:07 -0700, in
>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> <3hm8v4lqp2ll2rekc18fnf5a383eue2cqm@4ax.com>, Klaus
>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> Schadenfreude  wrote:
>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>
>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> In talk.politics.guns Tim Miller
>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>  wrote:
>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> B.H. Cramer wrote:
>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> "Klaus Schadenfreude" 
>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote in message
>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> news:5is6v416ktfu2dkdgqbunkdig3o5qd6pth@4ax.com...
>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> In talk.politics.guns Topaz 
>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by Kevin MacDonald
>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The current situation in the United States is
>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> really an awesome display of Jewish power and
>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> influence.
>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ____ "Let's see: The Jews control the world. The
>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nazis are illiterate, unemployable pedophiles. Hmmm, 
>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> whom
>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> do
>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> *I*
>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> want to throw in my lot with...?"
>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>  -Chris Morton, August 2001
>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> He's a coon, ferfuckssake.
>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> So, basically, EVERYONE kicks your girlie ass?
>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> LOL!!
>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> He's afraid of a coon? I think the nazi-wannabe club
>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> needs a new spokesman!
>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> They are afraid of their shadows.
>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> Coons are ALL shadow. They scare themselves silly.
>>> >>> >>>>>>>> Ben has never met an insulting comment he didn't like.
>>> >>> >>>>>>> What insult? Where?
>>> >>> >>>>>>
>>> >>> >>>>>> You are quite simply revolting.
>>> >>> >>>>>
>>> >>> >>>>> Oh dear. An insult from the wee tooler complaining of another's
>>> >>> >>>>> insulting behaviour.
>>> >>> >>>>
>>> >>> >>>> I can see why you and Ebersdorf get along so well.  He is a 
>>> >>> >>>> traitor
>>> >>> >>>> to
>>> >>> >>>> his people and a coward and you are an antisemite, a racist and 
>>> >>> >>>> a
>>> >>> >>>> coward.
>>> >>> >>>
>>> >>> >>>Anti-semite - I don't think I am but the yids have so labelled 
>>> >>> >>>me -
>>> >>> >>>I'll
>>> >>> >>>wear it with pride
>>> >>> >>>Racist - Bullshit.
>>> >>> >>>Coward - Bullshit.
>>> >>> >>>
>>> >>> >>>I see you as a traitor to Canada and the white race. I see you as 
>>> >>> >>>a
>>> >>> >>>craven
>>> >>> >>>coward. I also see you as a being racist, given you're more than 
>>> >>> >>>happy
>>> >>> >>>to
>>> >>> >>>support the ethnocentric, racist yids in everything they say and 
>>> >>> >>>do.
>>> >>> >>>
>>> >>> >>>You're also a hypocrite and a teller/creator of porkies.
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >> LOL
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >> There seems to be no end to mcfee's stupidity.
>>> >>> >
>>> >>> >He's not stupid in the intellectual sense, but he's stupid to think 
>>> >>> >he's
>>> >>> >on
>>> >>> >the side of right.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Self-deception would have been a better term than stupidity. McFee
>>> >>> simply seems to uncritically accept everything anti-German nonsense 
>>> >>> he
>>> >>> is told, something along the lines of that schadenfreude creep.
>>> >>
>>> >> What is that stench?  Oh, it is the coward Skaliks kissing Cramer's
>>> >> ass.
>>> >
>>> >Shut up, gourd, you hate filled old twerp.
>>> >
>>> That certainly sums up poor pathetic gourd.
>>
>> Keep hiding behind Cramer's skirts, butt-boy.
>
>Oh dear. Ole gourd is feeling a tad irrelevant.

I guess that every now and then reality creeps into his delusions.

>
>
>>
>> -- 
>> Gord McFee
>> I'll write no line before its time
>>
>> Visit the Holocaust History Project
>> http://www.holocaust-history.org
>> 


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:39:45 EDT 2009
Article: 2016342 of alt.revisionism
Path: border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!npeer02.iad.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!news.glorb.com!news-in-01.newsfeed.easynews.com!easynews!core-easynews-01!easynews.com!en-nntp-03.dc1.easynews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust "Victims" Count - What variance - Cremation data.
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Sun, 3 May 2009 11:04:44 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
 wrote:

>
>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message 
>news:roapv4dbj3ojh06gk3trimei42qn844bra@4ax.com...
>> On Fri, 1 May 2009 16:52:04 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
>>  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message
>>>news:k6tlv4lrl0ompfmikl80kbejecrou8hufq@4ax.com...
>>>> On Fri, 1 May 2009 09:07:53 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
>>>>  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>"B.H. Cramer"  wrote in message
>>>>>news:1oWdndQGSJv0v2fUnZ2dnVY3goWdnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Mavisbeacon"  wrote in message
>>>>>> news:1b239$49f9fd64$596480f8$16053@news.upc.ie...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:tfkjv41ng0i1u04fj278n18vrfhac3c7dt@4ax.com...
>>>>>>>> On Thu, 30 Apr 2009 12:55:53 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
>>>>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>"B.H. Cramer"  wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>news:46GdnSA0oK5A7mTUnZ2dnVY3goydnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "Mavisbeacon"  wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>> news:4c71f$49f96963$596480f8$9879@news.upc.ie...
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> "B.H. Cramer"  wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>>> news:G9qdnU9faI8XoGTUnZ2dnVY3gomdnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> "Gord McFee"  wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>>>> news:eq2iv4hs7ehnmij0gebt3pla3u232qls8e@4ax.com...
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 29 Apr 2009 15:20:11 +1000, in
>>>>>>>>>>>>> , "B.H. Cramer"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Anonymous"  wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> news:02df9c5c5b991ab6c90cef0560f4482d@mixmaster.nymu.eu...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > On Tue, 28 Apr 2009 12:22:29 +0000, Truthseeker wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> I am of the opinion that you are a Holocaust denier, that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> know
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> if you openly state on an international stage that that is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> case you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> can be arrested by international warrant
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > I live in the USA. If I think that the holohoax is a crock 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > shit
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > say so here, are you telling me that if I am identified 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > today,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > visit
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > Germany or Austria in the future, I can be arrested there 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > 'denying
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > the holohoax' or whatever it is called?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Publish your thoughts along those lines and yes, you can be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> arrested
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Germany and many other countries for dissing the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Holocaust(tm).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > And that can happen even though it is legal in the USA to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > say
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > holohaox is a crock of shit?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Even in the US you will get your arse canned if you make too
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> much
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> noise
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about questioning the Holocaust(tm).  Many academics have 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> found
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> out -
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the hard way.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Not that you can name one and prove it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> You lying old turd. Butz and Finkelstein come immediately to 
>>>>>>>>>>>> mind.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Who are Butz and Finkelsein , what academic credentials do they
>>>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>> how were they "canned" for questioning the Holocaust?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> You really are as dumb as a box of rocks, girlie.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>You mentioned the names Butz and Finkelsein as cases of academics
>>>>>>>>>being
>>>>>>>>>canned and you can't actually support your own claim. If you can't
>>>>>>>>>support
>>>>>>>>>your own claim don't try to attack the person asking you for the
>>>>>>>>>supporting
>>>>>>>>>evidence. It is a dead giveaway that you are a loser.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I know and understand what Ben is talking about, so why don't you?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You cant SHOW you know unless you can show whom he is talking about 
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> how it is a case of academics being canned for holocaust denial.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It will take you seconds to find evidence of Butz and Finkelstein's
>>>>>> destruction,
>>>>>
>>>>>Then why can't you supply it since you claim it and you say the evidence
>>>>>is
>>>>>there?
>>>>>You claim ity why should I have to do your work for you? especially if 
>>>>>it
>>>>>is
>>>>>untrue?
>>>>>
>>>>>> It is common knowledge among those with even a modicum of 
>>>>>> intelligence.
>>>>>
>>>>>It will take you seconds to find evidence of the Holocaust .
>>>>
>>>> It will take seconds for find holocaust fables and holocaust
>>>> propaganda. It is all over the place.
>>>
>>>So doubt so is you Alexander and socrates propaganda. All I see ids you
>>>opinion and no evidence as yet. why should I believe you?
>>
>> I never said that I wanted you to believe me.
>
>It is quite obvious that you do not care about anyone who does not subscribe 
>100 per cent to your bigoted opinion!

You're the Roman Catholic bigot, Mavis.

>But if you do not care why are you expressing your opinion to others?
>
>>I don't give a flying
>> shit what you believe.
>
>Which makes no difference to the YOUR CLAIM about "no evidence for jesus 
>outside the New Testament" does it?
>YOU WRE WRONG!

No matter how many times you say this nonsense, Mavis, it still
remains nonsense.


> The fact that you can't admit you were wrong will not change 
>things to you being right!
>
>> I don't share your RC superstitions, but you're
>> welcome to them.
>
>I made no claims about being RC. I only pointed to HISTORIANS and the 
>evidence for a historical Jesus. Again you try to CHANGE THE ISSUE form the 
>historicity of jesus to the divinity of Christ!

I haven't changed any issues. You are simply confused.

>
>Non Christians, Jews athiestsw and others ALL accept the historicity of 
>Jesus.

No they don't. You're living in a dream world.





> Bigots with narrow minded and ignorant viewpoints about the Church 
>don't!
>
>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>It is common
>>>>>knowledge to anyone intelligent or not (so you can count yourself in
>>>>>there).
>>>>>But bigots like you apply double standards to that as well don't you?
>>>>>
>>>>>Where is the evidence to support your claims about lots of academics 
>>>>>being
>>>>>canned?
>>>>
>>>> Christ all fucking mighty, Mavis, read a few books or newspapers.
>>>
>>>So that no evidence from you then?
>>>No surprises there!
>>>
>>>No evidence of Alexander or Socrates from their time either!
>>>
>>>But when it comes to Jesus and the Holocaust you can't accept the evidence
>>>for the historical truth even if shown it! I surprised that you don't 
>>>label
>>>a historical Jesus as "Jewish propaganda" in spite of the fact that The 
>>>Jews
>>>were superseded and replaced by Christians.
>>> 
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:39:46 EDT 2009
Article: 2016347 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust "Victims" Count - What variance - Cremation data.
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Sun, 3 May 2009 11:11:11 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
 wrote:

>
>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message 
>news:utapv4h3hv6d8tggjk5ckd9llhh5dn6l50@4ax.com...
>> On Fri, 1 May 2009 16:54:08 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
>>  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message
>>>news:11tlv4po9uqav60p4pvfu29va238nqach3@4ax.com...
>>>> On Thu, 30 Apr 2009 20:07:49 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
>>>>  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message
>>>>>news:tfkjv41ng0i1u04fj278n18vrfhac3c7dt@4ax.com...
>>>>>> On Thu, 30 Apr 2009 12:55:53 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
>>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>"B.H. Cramer"  wrote in message
>>>>>>>news:46GdnSA0oK5A7mTUnZ2dnVY3goydnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Mavisbeacon"  wrote in message
>>>>>>>> news:4c71f$49f96963$596480f8$9879@news.upc.ie...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "B.H. Cramer"  wrote in message
>>>>>>>>> news:G9qdnU9faI8XoGTUnZ2dnVY3gomdnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "Gord McFee"  wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>> news:eq2iv4hs7ehnmij0gebt3pla3u232qls8e@4ax.com...
>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 29 Apr 2009 15:20:11 +1000, in
>>>>>>>>>>> , "B.H. Cramer"
>>>>>>>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> "Anonymous"  wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>>>> news:02df9c5c5b991ab6c90cef0560f4482d@mixmaster.nymu.eu...
>>>>>>>>>>>> > On Tue, 28 Apr 2009 12:22:29 +0000, Truthseeker wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> I am of the opinion that you are a Holocaust denier, that 
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> you
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> know
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> if you openly state on an international stage that that is 
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> case you
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> can be arrested by international warrant
>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>> > I live in the USA. If I think that the holohoax is a crock of
>>>>>>>>>>>> > shit
>>>>>>>>>>>> > and
>>>>>>>>>>>> > say so here, are you telling me that if I am identified today,
>>>>>>>>>>>> > and
>>>>>>>>>>>> > visit
>>>>>>>>>>>> > Germany or Austria in the future, I can be arrested there for
>>>>>>>>>>>> > 'denying
>>>>>>>>>>>> > the holohoax' or whatever it is called?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Publish your thoughts along those lines and yes, you can be
>>>>>>>>>>>> arrested
>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>> Germany and many other countries for dissing the Holocaust(tm).
>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>> > And that can happen even though it is legal in the USA to say
>>>>>>>>>>>> > the
>>>>>>>>>>>> > holohaox is a crock of shit?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Even in the US you will get your arse canned if you make too 
>>>>>>>>>>>> much
>>>>>>>>>>>> noise
>>>>>>>>>>>> about questioning the Holocaust(tm).  Many academics have found
>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>> out -
>>>>>>>>>>>> the hard way.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Not that you can name one and prove it.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> You lying old turd. Butz and Finkelstein come immediately to mind.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Who are Butz and Finkelsein , what academic credentials do they 
>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> how were they "canned" for questioning the Holocaust?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You really are as dumb as a box of rocks, girlie.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>You mentioned the names Butz and Finkelsein as cases of academics 
>>>>>>>being
>>>>>>>canned and you can't actually support your own claim. If you can't
>>>>>>>support
>>>>>>>your own claim don't try to attack the person asking you for the
>>>>>>>supporting
>>>>>>>evidence. It is a dead giveaway that you are a loser.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I know and understand what Ben is talking about, so why don't you?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>You cant SHOW you know unless you can show whom he is talking about and
>>>>>how
>>>>>it is a case of academics being canned for holocaust denial.
>>>>
>>>> Talking to you is like trying to explain calculus to a grade 3 pupil
>>>> who has just started basic addition and subtraction.
>>>>
>>>> You just don't have the knowledge base to partake in any meaningful
>>>> discussion about anything here.
>>>>
>>>> It isn't my assignment to educate you. Hire somebody.
>>>
>>>Try looking up "ad hominem" . It is a dead giveaway. when someone is 
>>>LOSING
>>>the argument they resort to attacking the person who has defeated them! 
>>>Look
>>>up"shifting the burden" while you are at it!
>>>
>> There is no "argument". I was merely stating what I believe and why.
>> If that doesn't suit you, tough. I don't care what you might believe
>> about religion or the holocaustT, and I'm not out here to gain
>> converts.
>
>Makes no difference whateither of us believe. YOU CLAIM something as fact 
>then ift is for you to provide evidence!
>
>>You keep attacking me for simply stating my positions on
>> various topics.
>
>No I dont! I attack YOUR POSITION! Because your position is contrafactual 
>and fallacious!

No, you attack the obvious because you are clearly uneducated and
stupid. It's what stupid people do.

>
>>I'm not debating you at all.
>
>Yes you are and you are losing! When you have an opinion that is your own 
>business. when you come here and broadcast it to the world and claim your 
>position is a fact and it flys in the face of all the available evidence and 
>reason then you are on the losing side of a debate!
>When you add your obvious hatred of Jews and your resorts to personal attack 
>rather then supporting your position then you LOSE the debate.

There is no debate.

>
>>I didn't ask for your
>> input.
>
>doesn't matter! You made a claim

I made no claim. I simply stated my own beliefs. If yours are
different, fine, but I owe you nothing.

> which you couldnt support and I asked you 
>to supply supporting evidence.

Mavis, why can you not understand that you are not worth the trouble
of walking across a room to a bookshelf, let alone spending time
researching stuff you should already know?


>Whether you asked for me to show up your 
>obvious ignorance and contrafactual claims is not a subject of debate. 
>Whether the claims are supported IS!
>
>>It was you who decided to give me your input whether I wanted
>> it or not, just like mcfee/mcvay.
>
>Not an issue! If you didn't make hoax claims supported by lies hatred and 
>bigotry instead of factual evidence then people like me wouldn't reply would 
>they?

I am not into lies, hatred, or bigotry. Those are the province of my
opponents.

>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:39:46 EDT 2009
Article: 2016350 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Yad Vashem Counts the Same "Victims" Many Times
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
Message-ID: 
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On Sun, 3 May 2009 21:09:25 -0400, "Neil Harrington"
 wrote:

>Gord McFee wrote:
>> On Sat, 2 May 2009 13:25:52 -0400, in
>> , "Neil Harrington"
>>  wrote:
>>
>>> "Gord McFee"  wrote in message
>>> news:7soov454uf47nvgag6i6visaoq5se0sc3g@4ax.com...
>>>> On Fri, 1 May 2009 22:17:13 -0400, in
>>>> , "Neil Harrington"
>>>>  wrote:
>>>>
>>>> [...]
>>>>
>>>>> Hitler posed no threat to the west. All of his territotial
>>>>> ambitions were to
>>>>> the east.
>>>>
>>>> Whenever I am asked why I say that deniers are simply stupid, it is
>>>> quotes like this one that require no elaboration.
>>>>
>>>> All of Hitler's territorial ambitions were to the *east*.  Hmmm...
>>>> France, Belgium, Holland, Britain, Denmark, Norway.  Poor stupid
>>>> deniers.
>>>
>>> Britain and France declared war on Germany, not the other way
>>> around. Hitler certainly did not want that war.
>>
>> Irrelevant.  He did what was required to get it.
>
>Nonsense. It was Britain's guarantees to Poland that got the British and 
>French into war with Germany, and ultimately turned what would have been a 
>local war into a world war.
>
>>
>>> Belgium lay between France and Germany and
>>> since France had declared war it was the obvious route for German
>>> advance, just as it had been 20 years before. (Duh.)
>>
>> It was as wrong in World War II as it was in World War I.
>
>You seem to think war is some sort of polite game in which everyone plays 
>according to some sort of neat rules. It is not.
>
>>
>>> Norway was invaded by Germany to
>>> prevent its invasion by Britain, which the British obviously (and
>>> logically) intended to do.
>>
>> Why would the British invade an ally?
>
>Norway wasn't an ally of Britain. The British intended to invade Norway but 
>the Germans beat them to it.
>
>>
>>> The Germans simply beat them to it, and not by much. Holland
>>> and Denmark were likely possibilities for British beachheads.
>>
>> They were neutral countries and should not have been invaded under
>> international law.
>
>Of course. So much for international law -- it's violated all the time, with 
>impunity. Under international law we had no right to attack Serbia, a nation 
>that had not attacked us or any other nation. We not only attacked them, a 
>country defenseless against our cruise missiles, but we destroyed bridges, 
>hospitals, schools, power grids, etc., all part of the civilian 
>infrastructure and the destruction of them thus war crimes under 
>international law. We kept up those attacks for nearly three months, day and 
>night, destroyed a lot of property and killed a lot of civilians, including 
>children, one lot of them turned into little charred corpses outside their 
>school bus.
>
>So Bill Clinton is a war criminal, so what. Is there any outrage? Has he 
>been charged with his war crimes? On the contrary, he's still a very popular 
>figure here and abroad, living a life of wealth and ease, honored and 
>applauded everywhere. International law is a joke.
>
>>
>>> Your "simply stupid" are the people who don't grasp these rather
>>> elementary facts, Gord. I take it that you pride yourself on being
>>> among them.
>>
>> You just proved your ignorance with that series of whoppers.
>
>You're still wearing your stupidity as though it were the thing you're most 
>proud of. Probably it is, at that. 
>
His stupidity is all that gourd has. 


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:39:46 EDT 2009
Article: 2016351 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: congratulations jews
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
Message-ID: 
References: <75q6b9F18vt5dU1@mid.individual.net> <3kpov4tiapb3vc4rgcgfhl23tgonr1kne1@4ax.com> <7637ovF1b6nb4U1@mid.individual.net>  
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On Mon, 4 May 2009 09:54:13 +1000, "B.H. Cramer"
 wrote:

>
>"Gord McFee"  wrote in message 
>news:isasv41p3oufr9troqvkddkk2q8mm9s564@4ax.com...
>> On Sat, 2 May 2009 17:39:10 +0200, in
>> <7637ovF1b6nb4U1@mid.individual.net>, "Heinrich"
>>  wrote:
>>
>>> "Gord McFee"  schreef in bericht
>>> news:3kpov4tiapb3vc4rgcgfhl23tgonr1kne1@4ax.com...
>>> > On Wed, 29 Apr 2009 07:19:36 +0200, in
>>> > <75q6b9F18vt5dU1@mid.individual.net>, "Heinrich"
>>> >  wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> congratulations jews on turning 61 years old.
>>> >> may the whining, for which you jews are so famous may get less in 
>>> >> future
>>> >> which will be a blessing for mankind
>>> >
>>> > Did a whole bunch of Jews just turn 61?
>>> >
>>> the state where they live in, my friend
>>
>> Then say it, moron.
>
>Have you been on the bottle, old feller?  You're more aggressive than you 
>usually are.
>
Most of gourd's pontifications have the sound of whiskey-inspired
rhetoric.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:39:47 EDT 2009
Article: 2016842 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Yad Vashem Counts the Same "Victims" Many Times
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
Message-ID: 
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On Wed, 6 May 2009 13:19:29 +1000, "B.H. Cramer"
 wrote:

>
>"Gord McFee"  wrote in message 
>news:cfu105pgurmse9qt07ae1lvg3unequ2cr5@4ax.com...
>> On Tue, 5 May 2009 15:48:06 -0400, in
>> , "Neil Harrington"
>>  wrote:
>>
>>> "Gord McFee"  wrote in message
>>> news:XxMLl.274849$UQ6.133745@en-nntp-03.dc1.easynews.com...
>>> > On 5/3/2009 9:09 PM, Neil Harrington wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> Gord McFee wrote:
>>> >>> On Sat, 2 May 2009 13:25:52 -0400, in
>>> >>> , "Neil Harrington"
>>> >>>   wrote:
>>> >>>
>>> >>>> "Gord McFee"  wrote in message
>>> >>>> news:7soov454uf47nvgag6i6visaoq5se0sc3g@4ax.com...
>>> >>>>> On Fri, 1 May 2009 22:17:13 -0400, in
>>> >>>>> , "Neil
>>> >>>>> Harrington"  wrote:
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> [...]
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>> Hitler posed no threat to the west. All of his territotial
>>> >>>>>> ambitions were to the east.
>>> >>>>> Whenever I am asked why I say that deniers are simply stupid,
>>> >>>>> it is quotes like this one that require no elaboration.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> All of Hitler's territorial ambitions were to the *east*.
>>> >>>>> Hmmm... France, Belgium, Holland, Britain, Denmark, Norway.
>>> >>>>> Poor stupid deniers.
>>> >>>> Britain and France declared war on Germany, not the other way
>>> >>>> around. Hitler certainly did not want that war.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>> Irrelevant.  He did what was required to get it.
>>> >>
>>> >> Nonsense. It was Britain's guarantees to Poland that got the British
>>> >> and French into war with Germany, and ultimately turned what would
>>> >> have been a local war into a world war.
>>> >
>>> > Hitler knew about those guarantees 6 months *before* he invaded Poland.
>>> > The seminal pronouncement was made on March 31, 1939.  So, he brought
>>> > it on himself.
>>>
>>> The important thing is not what Hitler knew, but what the Poles believed.
>>> They expected the British to protect them from Germany by armed force, 
>>> which
>>> stiffened their resistance to reasonable German demands.
>>
>> That is the classic Nazi propaganda line.  You have learned it well.
>> It is however in complete disaccord with the facts.  German pressure
>> on Poland started well before the guarantee was given, and it was only
>> the German occupation of the remnant of Czechoslovakia on March 15,
>> after having signed a treaty saying it would not do so, that Britain
>> was finely awakened from its slumbers about German intentions.
>>
>>> Even Churchill had
>>> said that Germany had a legitimate grievance with respect to territory 
>>> taken
>>> from it by the terms of Versailles, e.g. the "Polish Corridor" which 
>>> split
>>> East Prussia off from the rest of Germany.
>>>
>>> If Hitler "brought it on himself" by invading Poland, what about Stalin 
>>> who
>>> invaded Poland from the other side almost simultaneously? Why did *he* 
>>> not
>>> "bring it on himself" too? But the Allies not only accepted the Soviets'
>>> invasion of the country they had "guaranteed" to protect, they *joined* 
>>> with
>>> the U.S.S.R. in the war against Germany. In the end, Poland along with 
>>> other
>>> countries of eastern Europe became Soviet satellites and had nothing to 
>>> say
>>> about it.
>>
>> Clearly, the allies were unable to mobilize in the 25 days of the
>> Polish war.
>>
>>> So much for the honesty of those "guarantees," eh?
>>>
>>> >>>> Belgium lay between France and Germany and since France had
>>> >>>> declared war it was the obvious route for German advance, just as
>>> >>>>  it had been 20 years before. (Duh.)
>>> >>>>
>>> >>> It was as wrong in World War II as it was in World War I.
>>> >>
>>> >> You seem to think war is some sort of polite game in which everyone
>>> >> plays according to some sort of neat rules. It is not.
>>> >
>>> > I think nothing of the kind.  But treaties between nations are supposed
>>> > to be respected in civilized society.  Germany, twice in 25 years, 
>>> > broke
>>> > neutrality treaties which it had freely signed.  It was wrong to do so.
>>>
>>> It's ridiculous to claim Germany "freely signed" the Versailles Treaty, 
>>> if
>>> that's one of the treaties you're referring to. You might as well say a 
>>> man
>>> "freely" hands over his money when robbed at the point of a gun. Germany 
>>> had
>>> no alternative.
>>
>> I wasn't referring to Versailles.  I was referring to many treaties
>> that had been signed in the time of Imperial Germany, which guaranteed
>> certain countries neutrality.  The treaties that were described by the
>> German Chancellor as a "scrap of paper".
>
>At the risk of being off topic - Why do you not rail against the yids for 
>the total lies they spray about in their declaration of the formation of the 
>state of israel? From the get go they lied through their teeth.
>
Poor gourd is confused again. Belgian neutrality was NOT signed or
guaranteed by Imperial Germany (Second Empire), nor did the Second
Empire regularly ignore treaty commitments. Germany had far more
respect for treaties than the USSR or George Bush for that matter.
The guarantor of Belgian neutrality was one of the German states, not
the Reich. By the constitution and by international law, the Reich is
not bound by agreements made by one of its states.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:39:47 EDT 2009
Article: 2017236 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Auschwitz Death Books
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Tue, 5 May 2009 16:26:24 +1000, "B.H. Cramer"
 wrote:

>
>"Kenneth McVay OBC"  wrote in message 
>news:B62dnSQz9ewcSWLUnZ2dnUVZ_qWdnZ2d@vex.net...
>> Dieter Wisliceny:
>>
>> I was sent to Berlin in July or August 1942 in connection
>> with the status of Jews from Slovakia, which mission is
>> referred to more fully hereinafter. I was talking to
>> Eichmann in his office in Berlin when he said that on
>> written order of Himmler all Jews were to be exterminated.
>>
>> I requested to be shown the order. He took a file from the
>> safe and showed me a top secret document with a red border,
>> indicating immediate action.  It was addressed jointly to
>> the Chief of the Security Police and the SD and to the
>> Inspector of Concentration Camps.
>>
>> The letter read substantially as follows:
>>
>> "The Fuehrer has decided that the final solution of the
>> Jewish question is to start immediately. I designate
>> the Chief of the Security Police and the SD and the
>> Inspector of Concentration Camps as responsible for
>> the execution of this order. The particulars of the
>> programme are to be agreed upon by the Chief of the
>> Security Police and the SD and the Inspector of
>> Concentration Camps. I am to be informed currently
>> as to the execution of this order."
>>
>> The order was signed by Himmler and was dated some time in
>> April 1942.  Eichmann told me that the words "final solution"
>> meant the biological extermination of the Jewish race,
>
>BBBBWWWWAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
>
>How very convenient for you, mcFey.
>
>Where did you "discover" this wee gem?

In addition, it would be hard to exterminate something that doesn't
exist. There is no Jewish race and there never was.

Jews are the adherents of Judaism, and they exist in numerous formats.
They don't constitute a "people", nor do they constitute a "race" or a
"tribe". Collectively, they are a bunch of people of assorted hide
colours that subscribe to the religious tenets of Judaism.

>
>
>
> but
>> that for the time being able-bodied Jews were to be spared
>> and employed in industry to meet the current requirements.
>>
>> http://adolfeichmanntrial.com/adolf-eichmann-trial-sessions/the-trial-of-adolf-eichmann-session-14-part-1
>>
>> -- 
>> Who is your choice for the Dumbest celebrity?  Kurt Knoll
>> holds a commanding lead at 26.1%, Dan Quayle is second at
>> 16.5% & GW Bush third at 18.3%. VOTE NOW, VOTE OFTEN!
>> Vote Now: http://squidoo.com/think-you-are-stupid-eh
>> 


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:39:48 EDT 2009
Article: 2017240 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Follow the antics of the Mavis Beacon tosser
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Wed, 6 May 2009 13:37:04 +1000, "B.H. Cramer"
 wrote:

>From its very first post under this name in June 2007, it has screeched and 
>whined and demanded others do her leg work for her.
>
>It's got no support on any of the groups it infests
>
>http://groups.google.com/group/alt.politics.bush/browse_thread/thread/bd943fa41d24bbff/ebddb7549cca174c?hl=en&q= 

How did the Mavis infestation come to alt.revisionism? Is it a plant
by mcfee/mcvay?



From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:39:48 EDT 2009
Article: 2017246 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Yad Vashem Counts the Same "Victims" Many Times
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
Message-ID: 
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On Wed, 6 May 2009 23:03:27 +1000, "B.H. Cramer"
 wrote:

>
>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message 
>news:utt2055pr7l22k5iq7s7be3q76i72kskkj@4ax.com...
>> On Wed, 6 May 2009 13:19:29 +1000, "B.H. Cramer"
>>  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Gord McFee"  wrote in message
>>>news:cfu105pgurmse9qt07ae1lvg3unequ2cr5@4ax.com...
>>>> On Tue, 5 May 2009 15:48:06 -0400, in
>>>> , "Neil Harrington"
>>>>  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> "Gord McFee"  wrote in message
>>>>> news:XxMLl.274849$UQ6.133745@en-nntp-03.dc1.easynews.com...
>>>>> > On 5/3/2009 9:09 PM, Neil Harrington wrote:
>>>>> >
>>>>> >> Gord McFee wrote:
>>>>> >>> On Sat, 2 May 2009 13:25:52 -0400, in
>>>>> >>> , "Neil Harrington"
>>>>> >>>   wrote:
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>> "Gord McFee"  wrote in message
>>>>> >>>> news:7soov454uf47nvgag6i6visaoq5se0sc3g@4ax.com...
>>>>> >>>>> On Fri, 1 May 2009 22:17:13 -0400, in
>>>>> >>>>> , "Neil
>>>>> >>>>> Harrington"  wrote:
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>> [...]
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>> Hitler posed no threat to the west. All of his territotial
>>>>> >>>>>> ambitions were to the east.
>>>>> >>>>> Whenever I am asked why I say that deniers are simply stupid,
>>>>> >>>>> it is quotes like this one that require no elaboration.
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>> All of Hitler's territorial ambitions were to the *east*.
>>>>> >>>>> Hmmm... France, Belgium, Holland, Britain, Denmark, Norway.
>>>>> >>>>> Poor stupid deniers.
>>>>> >>>> Britain and France declared war on Germany, not the other way
>>>>> >>>> around. Hitler certainly did not want that war.
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>> Irrelevant.  He did what was required to get it.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Nonsense. It was Britain's guarantees to Poland that got the British
>>>>> >> and French into war with Germany, and ultimately turned what would
>>>>> >> have been a local war into a world war.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Hitler knew about those guarantees 6 months *before* he invaded 
>>>>> > Poland.
>>>>> > The seminal pronouncement was made on March 31, 1939.  So, he brought
>>>>> > it on himself.
>>>>>
>>>>> The important thing is not what Hitler knew, but what the Poles 
>>>>> believed.
>>>>> They expected the British to protect them from Germany by armed force,
>>>>> which
>>>>> stiffened their resistance to reasonable German demands.
>>>>
>>>> That is the classic Nazi propaganda line.  You have learned it well.
>>>> It is however in complete disaccord with the facts.  German pressure
>>>> on Poland started well before the guarantee was given, and it was only
>>>> the German occupation of the remnant of Czechoslovakia on March 15,
>>>> after having signed a treaty saying it would not do so, that Britain
>>>> was finely awakened from its slumbers about German intentions.
>>>>
>>>>> Even Churchill had
>>>>> said that Germany had a legitimate grievance with respect to territory
>>>>> taken
>>>>> from it by the terms of Versailles, e.g. the "Polish Corridor" which
>>>>> split
>>>>> East Prussia off from the rest of Germany.
>>>>>
>>>>> If Hitler "brought it on himself" by invading Poland, what about Stalin
>>>>> who
>>>>> invaded Poland from the other side almost simultaneously? Why did *he*
>>>>> not
>>>>> "bring it on himself" too? But the Allies not only accepted the 
>>>>> Soviets'
>>>>> invasion of the country they had "guaranteed" to protect, they *joined*
>>>>> with
>>>>> the U.S.S.R. in the war against Germany. In the end, Poland along with
>>>>> other
>>>>> countries of eastern Europe became Soviet satellites and had nothing to
>>>>> say
>>>>> about it.
>>>>
>>>> Clearly, the allies were unable to mobilize in the 25 days of the
>>>> Polish war.
>>>>
>>>>> So much for the honesty of those "guarantees," eh?
>>>>>
>>>>> >>>> Belgium lay between France and Germany and since France had
>>>>> >>>> declared war it was the obvious route for German advance, just as
>>>>> >>>>  it had been 20 years before. (Duh.)
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>> It was as wrong in World War II as it was in World War I.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> You seem to think war is some sort of polite game in which everyone
>>>>> >> plays according to some sort of neat rules. It is not.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > I think nothing of the kind.  But treaties between nations are 
>>>>> > supposed
>>>>> > to be respected in civilized society.  Germany, twice in 25 years,
>>>>> > broke
>>>>> > neutrality treaties which it had freely signed.  It was wrong to do 
>>>>> > so.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's ridiculous to claim Germany "freely signed" the Versailles Treaty,
>>>>> if
>>>>> that's one of the treaties you're referring to. You might as well say a
>>>>> man
>>>>> "freely" hands over his money when robbed at the point of a gun. 
>>>>> Germany
>>>>> had
>>>>> no alternative.
>>>>
>>>> I wasn't referring to Versailles.  I was referring to many treaties
>>>> that had been signed in the time of Imperial Germany, which guaranteed
>>>> certain countries neutrality.  The treaties that were described by the
>>>> German Chancellor as a "scrap of paper".
>>>
>>>At the risk of being off topic - Why do you not rail against the yids for
>>>the total lies they spray about in their declaration of the formation of 
>>>the
>>>state of israel? From the get go they lied through their teeth.
>>>
>> Poor gourd is confused again. Belgian neutrality was NOT signed or
>> guaranteed by Imperial Germany (Second Empire), nor did the Second
>> Empire regularly ignore treaty commitments. Germany had far more
>> respect for treaties than the USSR or George Bush for that matter.
>> The guarantor of Belgian neutrality was one of the German states, not
>> the Reich. By the constitution and by international law, the Reich is
>> not bound by agreements made by one of its states.
>
>The poor old feller is not having a good time of it at the moment. His 
>favourite backer-upper, Mavis Beacon, has made quite a fool of herself so 
>he's even been forced to give her the finger.
>
>
>> 
When one has Mavis as a supporter, enemies are superfluous.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:39:48 EDT 2009
Article: 2017247 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: german language offensive to jews
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Wed, 6 May 2009 23:05:14 +1000, "B.H. Cramer"
 wrote:

>
>"Heinrich"  wrote in message 
>news:76d9qjF1c2apiU1@mid.individual.net...
>> Rightist lawmaker Aryeh Eldad demanded on Wednesday that Army Radio cease 
>> playing German pop group Polarkreis 18's song "Allein Allein" because of 
>> associations between the German language and the Holocaust.
>>
>> "In the state of Israel there still live many Jews whom Germany tossed to 
>> entirely other places," Eldad (National Union) told Army Radio.
>>
>> "There has never been an instruction or agreement not to broadcast songs 
>> in German on the radio, but everyone has his own limit."
>>
>>
>>
>> While most of the lyrics are in English, the chorus is in German. It 
>> reads: "Wir sind allein / allein allein" (we are alone, alone alone).
>>
>> Eldad added that the meaning of the song, a hit in Germany, actually 
>> portrayed the situation in Israel very well. "Possibly a Hebrew version 
>> would be nicer on the ear," he said.
>>
>> Following Eldad's remarks, one of the station's music editors, Dubi Lantz, 
>> said there was nothing inappropriate in the song. "Everyone has a button 
>> on their radio - they can turn it off," he added.
>
>Christallfuckingmighty!  Is there NOTHING these turds will NOT whine about?
>
>
If the whining of this jackass isn't hate propaganda, then nothing is,
although I'm sure that mcfee/mcvay would argue that this type of thing
is totally understandable and acceptable.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:39:49 EDT 2009
Article: 2017249 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: german language offensive to jews
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
Message-ID: <943605t20t56umbm00fec5p34imjiui1dj@4ax.com>
References: <76d9qjF1c2apiU1@mid.individual.net>  <76dgv5F1cd0p7U1@mid.individual.net> <_dOdnUNfwMD4DJzXnZ2dnVY3gomdnZ2d@giganews.com>
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On Wed, 6 May 2009 23:32:12 +1000, "B.H. Cramer"
 wrote:

>
>"Heinrich"  wrote in message 
>news:76dgv5F1cd0p7U1@mid.individual.net...
>>
>> "B.H. Cramer"  schreef in bericht 
>> news:IaidnRtVl5C5FpzXnZ2dnVY3goqdnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>
>>> "Heinrich"  wrote in message 
>>> news:76d9qjF1c2apiU1@mid.individual.net...
>>>> Rightist lawmaker Aryeh Eldad demanded on Wednesday that Army Radio 
>>>> cease playing German pop group Polarkreis 18's song "Allein Allein" 
>>>> because of associations between the German language and the Holocaust.
>>>>
>>>> "In the state of Israel there still live many Jews whom Germany tossed 
>>>> to entirely other places," Eldad (National Union) told Army Radio.
>>>>
>>>> "There has never been an instruction or agreement not to broadcast songs 
>>>> in German on the radio, but everyone has his own limit."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> While most of the lyrics are in English, the chorus is in German. It 
>>>> reads: "Wir sind allein / allein allein" (we are alone, alone alone).
>>>>
>>>> Eldad added that the meaning of the song, a hit in Germany, actually 
>>>> portrayed the situation in Israel very well. "Possibly a Hebrew version 
>>>> would be nicer on the ear," he said.
>>>>
>>>> Following Eldad's remarks, one of the station's music editors, Dubi 
>>>> Lantz, said there was nothing inappropriate in the song. "Everyone has a 
>>>> button on their radio - they can turn it off," he added.
>>>
>>> Christallfuckingmighty!  Is there NOTHING these turds will NOT whine 
>>> about?
>>>
>>>
>>> yes three words in german and that fucking godforsaken jew is whining 
>>> about it.
>
>They'll be calling for the tongues to be cut out of every German in the 
>world now.

The late unlamented Menachem Begin, well known murderer and terrorist,
refused to shake the hand of Helmut Kohl on the occasion of the state
visit to Israel of the latter for no other reason than that Kohl was
ethnically German. Kohl wasn't even alive during the period that Jews
were being persecuted in Europe.

>
>
>>
>> 


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:39:49 EDT 2009
Article: 2017250 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: cruel jews defeat eu
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Thu, 7 May 2009 14:41:49 +0200, "Heinrich" 
wrote:

>The European Union Parliament on Wednesday voted to legalize kosher 
>slaughtering, which has been outlawed by six countries -- but a critical 
>vote next month will determine if EU countries can effectively get around 
>the approval by demanding pre-stunning, which violates Jewish dietary laws.
>
>The European Jewish Congress and conference of European Jewish Rabbis 
>lobbied heavily for the bill and defeated efforts by animal rights groups to 
>ban kosher slaughtering, which demands swift death to the animal by use of a 
>sharp knife at the throat.
>
>Animal rights groups have claimed the method is cruel and have succeeded in 
>banning kosher slaughtering in Latvia, Sweden, Norway, Finland, Estonia and 
>Lithuania. Switzerland allows the method for poultry but not for other 
>animals.
>
>Rabbi Michael Melchior, former chief rabbi of Norway and currently an 
>Israeli Knesset Member, has said that kosher slaughter is actually more 
>humane than the practices in slaughterhouses. "The Torah forbids cruelty to 
>animals, and the shechitah [slaughter] process ensures that the animal loses 
>consciousness immediately," he explained. "We have been dealing with this 
>issue for many years, and there are many scientific studies that back us 
>up."
>
>The EU vote "represents the first time that 'shechita' has been recognized 
>as a legitimate form of animal slaughter by any European institution," said 
>Henry Grunwald, President of the Board of Deputies of British Jews and 
>Chairman of Shechita EU, which also fought for the new legislation.
>
>The crucial vote on pre-stunning worries European Jews. "The [proposed] 
>regulation must not be drafted to allow governments in Europe to threaten 
>our culture and our freedom to observe our religion," said Philip Carmel of 
>the Conference of European Rabbis. Serge Cwajgenbaum, Secretary General of 
>the European Jewish Congress, added that "the Jewish community takes 
>seriously the issues of human rights and the humane treatment of animals."
>
>The anti-kosher slaughtering bills have been viewed as anti-Semitic by many 
>Jews in Europe, where Hitler banned the method as one of his first steps 
>against Jews.
>
>
>When Holland called kosher slaughtering "cruel" in 2003 but allowed Jews to 
>continue using the method, Rabbi Melchior responded, "They simply don't want 
>foreigners, and they don't want Jews. I won't say this is the only 
>motivation, but it's certainly no coincidence that one of the first things 
>Nazi Germany forbade was kosher slaughter."
>
>Attempts by Swiss Jews to lift its 100-year-old ban on kosher slaughtering 
>caused an anti-Semitic backlash. In Sweden, there have been attempts to 
>forbid circumcision, a Jewish law that has bound Jews for 3,500 years.

They don't need to outlaw circumcision, they just need to charge any
person who does a medically-unnecessary circumcision with "indecent
assault on a child, causing bodily harm".

>
>
>Abraham Foxman, the national director of the U.S.-based Anti-Defamation 
>League, has said that anti-Semitic politicians "aid and abet" animal right 
>activists. "What other issues of animal rights have they engaged in to 
>prohibit cruelty? When they begin and end with kosher slaughter, that's when 
>it becomes suspect," he stated.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:46:55 EDT 2009
Article: 2489787 of soc.culture.usa
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.usa
Subject: Re: Holocaust "Victims" Count - What variance - Cremation data.
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Tue, 28 Apr 2009 15:25:48 +0100 (BST), Anonymous 
wrote:

>On Tue, 28 Apr 2009 12:22:29 +0000, Truthseeker wrote:
>
>
>>> I am of the opinion that you are a Holocaust denier, that you know that
>>> if you openly state on an international stage that that is the case you
>>> can be arrested by international warrant
>
>I live in the USA. If I think that the holohoax is a crock of shit and 
>say so here, are you telling me that if I am identified today, and visit 
>Germany or Austria in the future, I can be arrested there for 'denying 
>the holohoax' or whatever it is called?
>
>And that can happen even though it is legal in the USA to say the 
>holohaox is a crock of shit?

Essentially, the answer is "yes" to all your questions.

Demanjuk committed no offenses in the USA, and yet the American
authorities are fixing to send him to Germany for processing.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:46:56 EDT 2009
Article: 2491002 of soc.culture.usa
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.usa
Subject: Re: Holocaust "Victims" Count - What variance - Cremation data.
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Wed, 29 Apr 2009 05:14:57 -0700 (PDT), miles.smiles.piles@gmail.com
wrote:

>On Apr 28, 8:14 pm, "Truthseeker"  wrote:
>> What is legal in America could be illegal in Germany. This is why they do
>> send holocaust critics to Germany for convictions. And it is the Germans who
>> are the willing executioners for the holocaust industry.
>> Kurt Knoll.
>>
>> "Anonymous"  wrote in message
>>
>> news:02df9c5c5b991ab6c90cef0560f4482d@mixmaster.nymu.eu...
>>
>> > On Tue, 28 Apr 2009 12:22:29 +0000, Truthseeker wrote:
>>
>> >>> I am of the opinion that you are a Holocaust denier, that you know that
>> >>> if you openly state on an international stage that that is the case you
>> >>> can be arrested by international warrant
>>
>> > I live in the USA. If I think that the holohoax is a crock of shit and
>> > say so here, are you telling me that if I am identified today, and visit
>> > Germany or Austria in the future, I can be arrested there for 'denying
>> > the holohoax' or whatever it is called?
>>
>> > And that can happen even though it is legal in the USA to say the
>> > holohaox is a crock of shit?
>
>Most Germans do not want to ever end up under the Nazis again.

The Nazis were a unique product of Versailles. You are like
chicken-little yelling that the sky is falling. You are essentially
warning about imaginary, non-existent demons for narrow political
purposes.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:46:56 EDT 2009
Article: 2491184 of soc.culture.usa
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.usa
Subject: Re: NON-Nordic Whites Exterminated by White Supremacists
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Thu, 30 Apr 2009 17:48:23 -0700 (PDT), Repo 
wrote:

>On Apr 30, 4:30 pm, Marcus Aurelius  wrote:
>> Repo comes from a nation which is almost entirely of one ethnic group.
>
>Wrong; I'm from the USofA.
>
>
>> That nation gives preference by law to individuals of that ethnic
>> group. His country of origin is, therefore, a racist country.
>
>Country of origin is the USofA
>
>> The ideals of republican democracy and of individual rights and
>> liberties  and the "social contract"
>> originated in Western Caucasian
>> culture.
>
>Strange that you claim " the ideals of democracy and
>of individual rights and liberties originated in Western Caucasian
>culture",
>but yet You Neo-Nazis murder Catholics who are the leaders of
>that "Western Caucasian culture" that you so admire.
>
>> Repo's continuous blackguardly commentary on the Caucasian
>> Western culture therefore, is illogical and irrational as it denies
>> the antecedant,
>
>I "Repo" never posted about the Catholic church which *IS*
>the founder and keeper of Western culture, and further which You Neo-
>Nazi
>White Supremacists murdered during WWII and are anti-Catholic today.

The Church of Rome was never the keeper of European civilization. The
Roman Church robbed us of most of our knowledge of antiquity through
deliberate vandalism of anything pre-Christian.


>
>> confirms the consequent and, as the same time, makes
>> an illogical argument through "ad hominem" attacks on caucasian
>> culture.
>
>Read above; I'm posting about the murderous past and present of White
>Supremacists aka Nazis, and neo-Nazis, NOT "Western Culture" which IS
>the
>Catholic church.
>
>> "Bad people use bad means to obtain bad ends"


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:46:56 EDT 2009
Article: 2491186 of soc.culture.usa
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.usa
Subject: Re: NON-Nordic Whites Exterminated by White Supremacists
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
Message-ID: 
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On Thu, 30 Apr 2009 18:23:42 -0700 (PDT), Repo 
wrote:

>On Apr 30, 5:07 pm, br...@pobox.com wrote:
>> On Thu, 30 Apr 2009 17:48:23 -0700 (PDT), Repo 
>> wrote:
>>
>> >On Apr 30, 4:30 pm, Marcus Aurelius  wrote:
>> >> Repo comes from a nation which is almost entirely of one ethnic group.
>>
>> >Wrong; I'm from the USofA.
>>
>> Still lying about that, FOREIGN CRIMINAL SCUM?
>>
>>
>>
>> >> That nation gives preference by law to individuals of that ethnic
>> >> group. His country of origin is, therefore, a racist country.
>>
>> >Country of origin is the USofA
>>
>> Yep. You're still lying, foreign trash.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >> The ideals of republican democracy and of individual rights and
>> >> liberties  and the "social contract"
>> >> originated in Western Caucasian
>> >> culture.
>>
>> >Strange that you claim " the ideals of democracy and
>> >of individual rights and liberties originated in Western Caucasian
>> >culture",
>> >but yet You Neo-Nazis murder Catholics who are the leaders of
>> >that "Western Caucasian culture" that you so admire.
>>
>> >> Repo's continuous blackguardly commentary on the Caucasian
>> >> Western culture therefore, is illogical and irrational as it denies
>> >> the antecedant,
>>
>> >I "Repo" never posted about the Catholic church which *IS*
>> >the founder and keeper of Western culture, and further which You Neo-
>> >Nazi
>> >White Supremacists murdered during WWII and are anti-Catholic today.
>>
>> >> confirms the consequent and, as the same time, makes
>> >> an illogical argument through "ad hominem" attacks on caucasian
>> >> culture.
>>
>> >Read above; I'm posting about the murderous past and present of White
>> >Supremacists aka Nazis, and neo-Nazis, NOT "Western Culture" which IS
>> >the
>> >Catholic church.
>>
>> It's not surprising that foreign scum like you supports the Catholic
>> Church
>
>What an ignoramous you are, don't you know where "Western
>Civilization" originated from?  The Catholic church IS "Western
>Civilization".

Horseshit.

>
>
>
>> -- an organized gang of pedophiles and sexual predators.
>
>Approx 1 1/2% of the entire clergy maybe as you say, compare that
>to 4% of teachers in the public school system.  What do you call
>teachers; do you paint them All with the same brush or is only
>Catholics?

There is no bloody way that anywhere near 4% of the teachers in public
schools are sexual predators. Of the 200,000 teachers in the province
of Ontario, for example, fewer than half a dozen are charged with
anything in a typical year, whereas 4% would be 8,000 people. You, and
your whole post, are full of shit.

>
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >> "Bad people use bad means to obtain bad ends"- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:46:57 EDT 2009
Article: 2491188 of soc.culture.usa
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.usa
Subject: Re: NON-Nordic Whites Exterminated by White Supremacists
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
Message-ID: 
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On Thu, 30 Apr 2009 18:39:10 -0700 (PDT), Repo 
wrote:

>On Apr 30, 5:25 pm, br...@pobox.com wrote:
>> On Thu, 30 Apr 2009 18:23:42 -0700 (PDT), Repo 
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >On Apr 30, 5:07 pm, br...@pobox.com wrote:
>> >> On Thu, 30 Apr 2009 17:48:23 -0700 (PDT), Repo 
>> >> wrote:
>>
>> >> >On Apr 30, 4:30 pm, Marcus Aurelius  wrote:
>> >> >> Repo comes from a nation which is almost entirely of one ethnic group.
>>
>> >> >Wrong; I'm from the USofA.
>>
>> >> Still lying about that, FOREIGN CRIMINAL SCUM?
>>
>> >> >> That nation gives preference by law to individuals of that ethnic
>> >> >> group. His country of origin is, therefore, a racist country.
>>
>> >> >Country of origin is the USofA
>>
>> >> Yep. You're still lying, foreign trash.
>>
>> >> >> The ideals of republican democracy and of individual rights and
>> >> >> liberties  and the "social contract"
>> >> >> originated in Western Caucasian
>> >> >> culture.
>>
>> >> >Strange that you claim " the ideals of democracy and
>> >> >of individual rights and liberties originated in Western Caucasian
>> >> >culture",
>> >> >but yet You Neo-Nazis murder Catholics who are the leaders of
>> >> >that "Western Caucasian culture" that you so admire.
>>
>> >> >> Repo's continuous blackguardly commentary on the Caucasian
>> >> >> Western culture therefore, is illogical and irrational as it denies
>> >> >> the antecedant,
>>
>> >> >I "Repo" never posted about the Catholic church which *IS*
>> >> >the founder and keeper of Western culture, and further which You Neo-
>> >> >Nazi
>> >> >White Supremacists murdered during WWII and are anti-Catholic today.
>>
>> >> >> confirms the consequent and, as the same time, makes
>> >> >> an illogical argument through "ad hominem" attacks on caucasian
>> >> >> culture.
>>
>> >> >Read above; I'm posting about the murderous past and present of White
>> >> >Supremacists aka Nazis, and neo-Nazis, NOT "Western Culture" which IS
>> >> >the
>> >> >Catholic church.
>>
>> >> It's not surprising that foreign scum like you supports the Catholic
>> >> Church
>>
>> >What an ignoramous you are, don't you know where "Western
>> >Civilization" originated from?  The Catholic church IS "Western
>> >Civilization".
>>
>> More bullshit from FOREIGN CRIMINAL SCUM.
>
>There is proof throughout the world and the internet that the
>Catholic Church IS "Western Civilization"

The Roman Church represents ignorance and superstition of the worst
kind. It was the Roman Church that exterminated the native peoples of
south and central America, and that gave Europe countless wars, the
witch-hunts, and all manner of persecution.

When the Reformation threw off the shackles of Roman Catholicism, the
result was the Renaissance and the re-flowering of knowledge and
science in Europe that had been suppressed for so many centuries by
ignorant priests.

>
>http://www.hprweb.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=190:how-the-catholic-church-built-western-civilization-by-dr-thomas-woods-jr&catid=48:w-x&Itemid=55
>
>HOW THE CATHOLIC CHURCH BUILT WESTERN CIVILIZATION. By Dr. Thomas
>Woods, Jr. (Regnery Publishing, Inc., One Massachusetts Ave., N.W.,
>Washington, D.C. 20001), 256 pp., HB $29.95.
>
>
>If modern studies credit the Catholic Church with anything positive,
>it is usually limited to faint praise in the realm of music and the
>arts. Dr. Thomas Woods, however, offers an alternative view in his
>unambiguously titled best-seller, How the Catholic Church Built
>Western Civilization. As he puts it, Catholicism laid the foundations
>for every major institution we now take for granted—Western law, the
>university system, empirical science, hospitals and charitable
>organizations—to name a few. He laments that “relatively little of
>this information is found in the Western civilization textbooks the
>average student reads in high school and college.” This book fills in
>the gap.
>
>
>Dr. Woods begins by detailing the invaluable salvage work undertaken
>by the Church, particularly the monasteries, in the wake of Rome’s
>political and social collapse. Out of the ruins emerged Europe’s new
>educational system, Catholic from its inception. It would preserve and
>extend our knowledge beyond that of any previous society.
>
>
>Undoubtedly the most provocative and detailed section is the one on
>“The Church and Science.” The reason for this is clear. If there is
>any point on which the Church is harassed, to the point of monotony,
>it is its alleged suppression of scientific advancement. Central to
>any such
>
>
>>
>>
>>
>> >> -- an organized gang of pedophiles and sexual predators.
>>
>> >Approx 1 1/2% of the entire clergy maybe as you say, compare that
>> >to 4% of teachers in the public school system.  What do you call
>> >teachers; do you paint them All with the same brush or is only
>> >Catholics?
>>
>> I see that you still lie just to keep in practice,
>
>> Pancho.
>
>Thank You; better "Pancho" than
>"White Supremacists neo-Nazi".
>
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >> >> "Bad people use bad means to obtain bad ends"- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> >> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> >> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:46:57 EDT 2009
Article: 2492265 of soc.culture.usa
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.usa
Subject: Re: AP Erases Video of Israeli Soldier Shooting Palestinian Boy
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Sun, 3 May 2009 03:58:34 -0700 (PDT), xxarag@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

>On 3 May, 07:04, "B.H. Cramer"  wrote:
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAR-0XL9n-g&feature=related
>
>SEEM TO ME STAGED BUT EVEN IF ITS TRUE (BOY SEEM TO ME VERY HAPPY BTW)
>NOTHING WRONG TO SHOT A ARAB TERRORIST EVEN 10yr OLD TERROR IS TERROR
>NO AGE CONSIDERED TO SAVE HUMAN LIFE!

You are a total arsehole and bigot.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:46:58 EDT 2009
Article: 2492274 of soc.culture.usa
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.usa
Subject: Re: Sadly, Israel is no longer democratic
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On Sun, 3 May 2009 10:46:21 -0700 (PDT), harry
 wrote:

>On May 3, 3:08 am, Dandy 
>wrote:
>> Shulamit Aloni / Sadly, Israel is no longer democratic
>> By Shulamit Aloni
>> Tags: democracy, Israel news
>>
>> Maj. Gen. Amos Yadlin and philosopher Asa Kasher, two respected men
>> around here, published an article entitled: "A just war of a democratic
>> state," (Haaretz, April 24, Hebrew).
>>
>> A remark about the first part: There are wars that are necessary for
>> self-defense or to fight injustice and evil. But the expression "just"
>> is problematic when speaking of war itself - which involves killing and
>> destruction and leaves women, children and old people homeless, and
>> sometimes even kills them.
>>
>> Our sages have said: "Don't be overly righteous." And there is
>> absolutely no question that dropping cluster bombs in an area populated
>> by civilians, as we did in the Second Lebanon War, does not testify to
>> great righteousness. The same thing can be said of using phosphorus
>> bombs against a civilian population.
>>         Advertisement
>> Apparently, according to the Yadlin and Kasher definition of justice, in
>> order to eliminate terrorists it is just to destroy, kill, expel and
>> starve a civilian population that has no connection to the acts of
>> terror and no responsibility for them. Perhaps had they adopted a more
>> decent and less arrogant approach they would have tried to explain the
>> reasons for the fury and intensity that brought about the shocking
>> killing and destruction, and even apologized for the fact that these
>> exceeded any reasonable necessity.
>>
>> But after all, we are always right; moreover, these things were done by
>> "the most moral army in the world," sent by the "democratic" Jewish
>> state - and here is the meeting point of the two concepts in the title
>> of Yadlin and Kasher's article.
>>
>> As for the army's morality, it would have been better had they remained
>> silent and thereby been considered wise. This is because the statistics
>> on the destruction and harm to civilians in the Gaza Strip are familiar
>> to everyone, and not divorced from the oh-so-moral behavior of our army
>> in the occupied territories. In the context of this behavior, for
>> example, the army operates with great efficiency against farmers who
>> demonstrate against the theft of their lands, even when the
>> demonstrations are not violent.
>>
>> The long-term evidence of abuse by soldiers against civilians at the
>> checkpoints - including repeated instances of expectant mothers who are
>> forced to give birth in the middle of the road, surrounded by armed
>> soldiers who laugh wickedly - is no secret either. Day after day, year
>> after year, the most moral army in the world helps to steal lands,
>> uproot trees, steal water, close roads - in the service of the righteous
>> "Jewish and democratic" state and with its support. It's heartbreaking,
>> but the State of Israel is no longer democratic. We are living in an
>> ethnocracy under "Jewish and democratic" rule.
>>
>> In 1970 it was decided that in Israel religion and nationality are one
>> and the same (that is why we are not listed in the Population Registry
>> as Israelis, but as Jews). In 1992 it was determined in the Basic Law on
>> Human Dignity and Liberty that Israel is a "Jewish state." There is no
>> mention in this law of the promise that appears in the state's formative
>> document, the Declaration of Independence, to the effect that "The State
>> of Israel will ensure complete equality of social and political rights
>> to all its inhabitants, irrespective of religion, race or sex." The
>> Knesset ratified the law nonetheless.
>>
>> And so there is a "Jewish state" and no "equality of rights." Therefore
>> some observers emphasize that the Jewish state is not "a state of all
>> its citizens." Is there really a democracy that is not a state of all
>> its citizens? After all, Jews living today in democratic countries enjoy
>> the full rights of citizenship.
>>
>> Democracy exists in the State of Israel today only in the formal sense:
>> There are parties and elections and a good judicial system. But there is
>> also an omnipotent army that ignores legal decisions that restrict the
>> theft of land owned and held by people who have been living under
>> occupation for the past 42 years. And since 1992, as we mentioned, we
>> also have the definition "Jewish state," which means an ethnocracy - the
>> rule of an ethnic religious community that strictly determines the
>> ethnic origin of its citizens according to maternal lineage. And as far
>> as other religions are concerned, disrespect for them is already a
>> tradition, since we have learned: "Only you are considered human beings,
>> whereas the gentiles are like donkeys."
>>
>>  From here it is clear that we and our moral army are exempt from
>> concerns for the Palestinians living in Israel, and this is even more
>> true of those living under occupation. On the other hand, it is
>> perfectly all right to steal their land because these are "state lands"
>> that belong to the State of Israel and its Jews.
>>
>> That is the case even though we have not annexed the West Bank and have
>> not granted citizenship to its inhabitants, who under Jordanian rule
>> were Jordanian citizens. The State of Israel has penned them in, which
>> makes it easy to confiscate their land for the benefit of its settlers.
>>
>> And important and respected rabbis, who are educating an entire
>> generation, have ruled that the whole country is ours and the
>> Palestinians should share the fate of Amalek, the ancient tribe the
>> Israelites were commanded to eradicate. At a time when a "just war" is
>> taking place, racism is rife and robbery is called "return of property."
>>
>> We are currently celebrating the 61st anniversary of the State of
>> Israel. We fought in the War of Independence out of a great hope that we
>> would build a "model society" here, that we would make peace with our
>> neighbors, work the land and develop the Jewish genius for the benefit
>> of science, culture and the value of man - every man. But when a major
>> general and a philosopher justify - out of a sense of moral superiority
>> - our acts of injustice toward the other in such a way, they cast a very
>> heavy shadow on all those hopes.
>>
>> http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1082174.html
>
>Further to the above, extreme right wing Jewish zealots are demanding
>that buses be partitioned (male/female)  Some buses are divided thus
>and some are not.   Women are expected to sit in the back and wear
>modest clothes.  It's not apparent which buses are so divided, women
>inadvertantly getting in the front of a divided bus have been
>physically and verbally abused.
>They're now demanding divided aircraft!

Basically then, this bunch isn't all that different from the Muslims
they like to rant about for their put-downs of women.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:46:58 EDT 2009
Article: 2492479 of soc.culture.usa
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.usa
Subject: Re: THE FOUNDERS ON HOMOSEXUALITY
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Sun, 3 May 2009 11:37:24 -0700 (PDT), uNmaiviLambi
 wrote:

>On May 3, 1:27 pm, htnakirs  wrote:
>> I fail to see what the big issue here is. Just because homos make a
>> loud noise, will heteros go gay? Seeing two men kiss in public, will
>> boys experiment? Hmmmmm.
>
>Homo sexuality is a perversion.

No medical association in the developed world agrees with you. You
seem to be stuck in the 19th century.

> Saying is is an alternate way is
>misleading people. Same with alcohol, seeing people drink or some in
>public, will it make people drink or smoke?

You're making nonsense comparisons between apples and oranges. Sexual
orientation, be it heterosexual, homosexual, or bisexual is not an
addiction and hence not to be compared with drinking or smoking.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri May  8 12:46:58 EDT 2009
Article: 2493663 of soc.culture.usa
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.usa
Subject: Re: Yids not happy with UN report on their recklessness in Gaza -  Having a good ole whine, them.
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Thu, 7 May 2009 09:47:52 -0700 (PDT), Michael Ejercito
 wrote:

>On May 7, 2:12 am, "B.H. Cramer"  wrote:
>> UN report accuses Israel of recklessness in Gaza
>>
>> http://www.reuters.com/article/featuredCrisis/idUSN05321386
>>
>> By Patrick Worsnip
>>
>> UNITED NATIONS, May 5 (Reuters) - A U.N. inquiry accused Israel on Tuesday
>> of gross negligence and recklessness in attacks on U.N. property in the Gaza
>> strip during fighting between the Jewish state and Palestinian militants in
>> January.
>>
>   Fewer people died from bombing raids in Gaza than bombing raids in
>Tokyo and Dresden.

Allied attacks on those two cities were carefully designed and
orchestrated to maximize civilian carnage. The UN essentially accuses
Israel of the same sort of thing in Gaza. The operation was carried
out with a view to maximizing civilian carnage.

>
>
> Michael


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Sun May 10 12:51:11 EDT 2009
Article: 2017678 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: congratulations jews
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Fri, 8 May 2009 11:25:36 +1000, "B.H. Cramer"
 wrote:

>
>"Gord McFee"  wrote in message 
>news:MkLMl.203296$5Z3.88207@en-nntp-05.dc1.easynews.com...
>> On 5/6/2009 10:03 PM, B.H. Cramer wrote:
>>
>>> "Gord McFee"  wrote in message
>>> news:aWqMl.220555$BR.147667@en-nntp-04.dc1.easynews.com...
>>>> On 5/5/2009 11:11 PM, B.H. Cramer wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> "Gord McFee"  wrote in message
>>>>> news:c3v1055sj5aats6hh13peta90q6huk3ll6@4ax.com...
>>>>>> On Tue, 5 May 2009 13:21:47 +1000, in
>>>>>> , "B.H. Cramer"
>>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Gord McFee"  wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:dzMLl.274869$UQ6.88290@en-nntp-03.dc1.easynews.com...
>>>>>>>> On 5/3/2009 7:54 PM, B.H. Cramer wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "Gord McFee"  wrote in message
>>>>>>>>> news:isasv41p3oufr9troqvkddkk2q8mm9s564@4ax.com...
>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 2 May 2009 17:39:10 +0200, in
>>>>>>>>>> <7637ovF1b6nb4U1@mid.individual.net>, "Heinrich"
>>>>>>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> "Gord McFee"  schreef in
>>>>>>>>>>> bericht
>>>>>>>>>>> news:3kpov4tiapb3vc4rgcgfhl23tgonr1kne1@4ax.com...
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 29 Apr 2009 07:19:36 +0200, in
>>>>>>>>>>>> <75q6b9F18vt5dU1@mid.individual.net>, "Heinrich"
>>>>>>>>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> congratulations jews on turning 61 years old. may
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the whining, for which you jews are so famous may
>>>>>>>>>>>>> get less in future which will be a blessing for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> mankind
>>>>>>>>>>>> Did a whole bunch of Jews just turn 61?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> the state where they live in, my friend
>>>>>>>>>> Then say it, moron.
>>>>>>>>> Have you been on the bottle, old feller?  You're more
>>>>>>>>> aggressive than you usually are.
>>>>>>>> Don't like that mirror, eh Ben?
>>>>>>> No I don't.
>>>>>> Thank you.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I do not like myself when I allow you lot to wind me up. I
>>>>>>> have told you that on more than one occasion.
>>>>>> Indeed you have.  Yet, in almost every post you make, you
>>>>>> insult the other poster.  Even when that person has done no
>>>>>> such thing to you.
>>>>> That is not true. I give like for like.
>>>> My God man, you started it with me.
>>>
>>> Afraid your memory is failing you, Gord.
>>>
>>> Go back a few years. It commenced the day you called me "denier
>>> filth." Remember?
>>
>> That was long after you had started it with me.  You are forgetting who
>> it was that attacked when you came into this newsgroup.  It wasn't me.
>
>You were but one. I took issue with you when you first called me filth. I 
>remember that incident very, very well.
>
>I also remember who those who attacked me. One of whom is now a drunken, 
>broken down sot in israel.
>
Gourd calls most everybody who doesn't agree with his positions
100.0%, denier filth, and then goes on to complain bitterly about
personal attacks.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Sun May 10 12:51:11 EDT 2009
Article: 2017681 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Auschwitz Death Books
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On Fri, 8 May 2009 09:03:00 +1000, "B.H. Cramer"
 wrote:

>Johannes von Ebersdorf wrote:
>> On Tue, 5 May 2009 16:26:24 +1000, "B.H. Cramer"
>>  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> "Kenneth McVay OBC"  wrote in message
>>> news:B62dnSQz9ewcSWLUnZ2dnUVZ_qWdnZ2d@vex.net...
>>>> Dieter Wisliceny:
>>>>
>>>> I was sent to Berlin in July or August 1942 in connection
>>>> with the status of Jews from Slovakia, which mission is
>>>> referred to more fully hereinafter. I was talking to
>>>> Eichmann in his office in Berlin when he said that on
>>>> written order of Himmler all Jews were to be exterminated.
>>>>
>>>> I requested to be shown the order. He took a file from the
>>>> safe and showed me a top secret document with a red border,
>>>> indicating immediate action.  It was addressed jointly to
>>>> the Chief of the Security Police and the SD and to the
>>>> Inspector of Concentration Camps.
>>>>
>>>> The letter read substantially as follows:
>>>>
>>>> "The Fuehrer has decided that the final solution of the
>>>> Jewish question is to start immediately. I designate
>>>> the Chief of the Security Police and the SD and the
>>>> Inspector of Concentration Camps as responsible for
>>>> the execution of this order. The particulars of the
>>>> programme are to be agreed upon by the Chief of the
>>>> Security Police and the SD and the Inspector of
>>>> Concentration Camps. I am to be informed currently
>>>> as to the execution of this order."
>>>>
>>>> The order was signed by Himmler and was dated some time in
>>>> April 1942.  Eichmann told me that the words "final solution"
>>>> meant the biological extermination of the Jewish race,
>>>
>>> BBBBWWWWAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
>>>
>>> How very convenient for you, mcFey.
>>>
>>> Where did you "discover" this wee gem?
>>
>> In addition, it would be hard to exterminate something that doesn't
>> exist. There is no Jewish race and there never was.
>>
>> Jews are the adherents of Judaism, and they exist in numerous formats.
>> They don't constitute a "people", nor do they constitute a "race" or a
>> "tribe". Collectively, they are a bunch of people of assorted hide
>> colours that subscribe to the religious tenets of Judaism.
>
>They  ARE a race when it suits their agenda, Johannes.

The Khazars were an ethnicity, so some branches of Judaism could be
construed to be an ethnicity, but not all of the world's Jews.

Israel is intended to be the home of a certain ethnic subgroup of
Jews. Almost the entire population of Israel currently consists of
Russian and Polish Jews, and those could be construed to possess a
certain amount of tribal consistency.

>
>
>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> but
>>>> that for the time being able-bodied Jews were to be spared
>>>> and employed in industry to meet the current requirements.
>>>>
>>>> http://adolfeichmanntrial.com/adolf-eichmann-trial-sessions/the-trial-of-adolf-eichmann-session-14-part-1
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Who is your choice for the Dumbest celebrity?  Kurt Knoll
>>>> holds a commanding lead at 26.1%, Dan Quayle is second at
>>>> 16.5% & GW Bush third at 18.3%. VOTE NOW, VOTE OFTEN!
>>>> Vote Now: http://squidoo.com/think-you-are-stupid-eh 


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Sun May 10 12:51:12 EDT 2009
Article: 2017684 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Follow the antics of the Mavis Beacon tosser
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
Message-ID: 
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On Thu, 7 May 2009 17:34:15 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
 wrote:

>
>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message 
>news:8n16059ggt6g8d9srgh7eeg6mcmu0pt75n@4ax.com...
>> On Wed, 6 May 2009 13:37:04 +1000, "B.H. Cramer"
>>  wrote:
>>
>>>From its very first post under this name in June 2007, it has screeched 
>>>and
>>>whined and demanded others do her leg work for her.
>>>
>>>It's got no support on any of the groups it infests
>>>
>>>http://groups.google.com/group/alt.politics.bush/browse_thread/thread/bd943fa41d24bbff/ebddb7549cca174c?hl=en&q=
>>
>> How did the Mavis infestation come to alt.revisionism? Is it a plant
>> by mcfee/mcvay?
>
>LOL spoken like a true conspiracy theorist!
>
>If you didn't cross post your unsupported claims I probably wouldn't have 
>arrived. 
>
I generally don't "crosspost", since my newsreader is programmed to
strip out everything except "alt.revisionism".


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Sun May 10 12:51:12 EDT 2009
Article: 2017686 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Follow the antics of the Mavis Beacon tosser
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Fri, 8 May 2009 09:00:24 +1000, "B.H. Cramer"
 wrote:

>Johannes von Ebersdorf wrote:
>> On Wed, 6 May 2009 13:37:04 +1000, "B.H. Cramer"
>>  wrote:
>>
>>> From its very first post under this name in June 2007, it has
>>> screeched and whined and demanded others do her leg work for her.
>>>
>>> It's got no support on any of the groups it infests
>>>
>>> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.politics.bush/browse_thread/thread/bd943fa41d24bbff/ebddb7549cca174c?hl=en&q=
>>
>> How did the Mavis infestation come to alt.revisionism? Is it a plant
>> by mcfee/mcvay?
>
>I have no idea. Surely they wouldn't be thick enough to have invited 
>something of her type to support their nonsense?  Surely?
>
Since the basic intent of mcfee/mcvay is to disrupt the newsgroup and
effectively prevent any discussion, mavis would be the ideal choice
since disruption is about the only thing she does well.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Sun May 10 12:51:12 EDT 2009
Article: 2017690 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: GOOD SHOW JEW KILLED HIMSELF WITH OWN WEAPON
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Fri, 8 May 2009 13:51:53 +0200, "Heinrich" 
wrote:

>A Canadian-born Israel Defense Forces soldier was killed Thursday morning 
>during an operation near the West Bank city of Ramallah. The soldier, Sgt. 
>Noam Adin Rechter-Levi, 20, was killed when his weapon discharged while he 
>was scuffling with Palestinians in the town of Bir Zeit, a probe found.

Tough. When one makes a career out of murdering people, one has to
take into account some attendant risks.

>
>His family was informed of his death. Rechter-Levi was born in Montreal and 
>immigrated to Israel with his family at the age of 8.
>
>The incident began around 3 A.M., when a clash broke out between a 
>contingent of troops from the Kfir infantry brigade's Duchifat battalion and 
>people in the Palestinian town.
>     Advertisement
>
>
>At a certain point an officer and a soldier left the main force, apparently 
>in a bid to flank the Palestinians. The pair subsequently encountered more 
>Palestinians, with whom they began to scuffle.
>
>Shortly afterward, a shot was heard and the soldier collapsed, critically 
>wounded. He was later pronounced dead at the scene.
>
>Troops apprehended three Palestinians whom they suspect of participating in 
>the clash. A nine millimeter casing was recovered at the scene, but forensic 
>tests showed he was killed from a 5.56-millimeter bullet which probably came 
>from an IDF rifle.
>
>The investigation is now centering on whether the Palestinians with whom 
>Rechter-Levi scuffled pointed the barrel at him while the rifle was strapped 
>to his body and as they were fighting.
>
>Other troops arrested 16 wanted Palestinians across the West Bank in 
>overnight operations.
>
>The probe may also touch on the type of mission the soldiers were on - 
>mapping out Palestinian towns for reconnaissance purposes. Some commanders 
>view these entries into potentially-hostile territory as a means to keep 
>troops alert and well-drilled during periods of relative calm. Army 
>authorities say the raids help deter terrorists.
>
>But the raids are source of inconvenience for Palestinians, especially when 
>they include break-ins into residential homes in the middle of the night. 
>Some in the intelligence community argue that the raids produce little 
>valuable information and that they are a source of unnecessary friction with 
>Palestinian security forces.
>
>In October 2003 three Duchifat soldiers were killed in a nearby village, Ein 
>Yabrud, during a reconnaissance patrol. A probe into the force's performance 
>in the village revealed they had acted with complacency, violating protocol 
>in a number of ways. The battalion's commander was relieved of his command 
>following the probe.
>
>Rechter-Levi was the first IDF casualty in the West Bank in 20 months. The 
>last soldier to die there was Bentzi Henmann from the Paratrooper Brigade's 
>reconnaissance commando unit, who died in a gunfight with wanted 
>Palestinians in the refugee camp Ein Beit Ilmah near Nablus.
>
>'Noam was loved by everybody'
>
>"Noam was full of life and loved by everybody," Ma'ayan, the brother of Sgt. 
>Noam Adin Rechter-Levi, who was killed in an IDF operation in the West Bank 
>on Thursday, said. "The smile never fell from his face. A wide heart as his 
>is rarely found."
>
>"Noam possessed a sense of justice that was unique, he was a dedicated and 
>loyal friend who was willing to lend a supporting shoulder and an attentive 
>ear. He always sought happiness and joy and made the most out of every 
>moment he shared with family and friends."
>
>Noam, the fourth of five children, was born in Montreal in 1988. He added 
>the name Rechter to his surname to pay homage to his grandmother, whose 
>family perished in the Holocaust.
>
>Noam immigrated to Israel at age 8 with his family, which then settled in 
>the town of Mitzpeh Natufa in the Lower Galilee. He attended the elementary 
>school in Kibbutz Lavi and he completed his secondary school studies in the 
>Yeshiva High School in Tiberias.
>
>Ma'ayan said his brother was a very active child who was quick to adopt to 
>his surroundings and who was curious by nature. "Even before he learned how 
>to speak, he knew how to ride a bicycle without training wheels," he said. 
>"Noam was an excellent athlete and an exceptional basketball player. He 
>established a basketball club for the children in the town, and they loved 
>him, admired him, and saw him as a role model."
>
>Ma'ayan said his brother enlisted in the Duhifat Battalion of the Kfir 
>Brigade, where he underwent training as a medic. Last month, he was promoted 
>to the position of battalion medic. "During an operation a few weeks ago he 
>performed CPR on a terrorist who was seriously injured out of the respect 
>for human life."
>
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Sun May 10 12:51:13 EDT 2009
Article: 2017691 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Importance of Arolsen
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Fri, 8 May 2009 15:44:56 -0700 (PDT), george 
wrote:

>On May 9, 10:24 am, ZuLu  wrote:
>> I'll Always Be 8/05/09 escribió:
>>
>> > In article
>> > <4a045...@news.x-privat.org>,
>> >  ZuLu  wrote:
>>
>> >> The Importance of Arolsen
>>
>> >> By Thomas Kues
>>
>> > I see that you have decided to use the
>> > cramer method of documentation.
>>
>> > No copyright, no date, no
>> > attribution...such a denier you are
>>
>> I gave the link, you erased it IDIOT.
>>
>> http://www.codoh.com/newrevoices/nrtkarolsen.html
>
>A New Revisionist based article eh ?
>One would think that the nazi would be more adroit at hiding their
>biased material

Nothing could be more one-sided and biased than the crap spewed by
Nizkor.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Sun May 10 12:51:13 EDT 2009
Article: 2017692 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Importance of Arolsen
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
Message-ID: <3t7b05de1f0f5acjmqsj8vb0p7a4s9c6mv@4ax.com>
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On Sat, 9 May 2009 09:06:47 +1000, "B.H. Cramer"
 wrote:

>
>"george"  wrote in message 
>news:75213573-bb68-41f1-a644-6355383c6d15@k9g2000pra.googlegroups.com...
>On May 9, 10:24 am, ZuLu  wrote:
>> I'll Always Be 8/05/09 escribió:
>>
>> > In article
>> > <4a045...@news.x-privat.org>,
>> > ZuLu  wrote:
>>
>> >> The Importance of Arolsen
>>
>> >> By Thomas Kues
>>
>> > I see that you have decided to use the
>> > cramer method of documentation.
>>
>> > No copyright, no date, no
>> > attribution...such a denier you are
>>
>> I gave the link, you erased it IDIOT.
>>
>> http://www.codoh.com/newrevoices/nrtkarolsen.html
>
>>A New Revisionist based article eh ?
>>One would think that the nazi would be more adroit at hiding their
>>biased material
>
>If it's biased material, spattered with filth, lies and hatred, try this 
>site, black cunt.
>
>http://www.nizkor.org
>
That site is the definition of filth, lies, and hatred.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Sun May 10 12:51:14 EDT 2009
Article: 2017702 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Archiving messages
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Sat, 9 May 2009 14:18:31 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
 wrote:

>
>"Kenneth McVay OBC"  wrote in message 
>news:W_KdndjRodmt_ZnXnZ2dnUVZ_tBi4p2d@vex.net...
>> In article <967f5$4a04086f$596480f8$20445@news.upc.ie>,
>> Mavisbeacon  wrote:
>>>Note:
>>>Since Johannes von Ebersdorf had his Forte Free Agent Newsreader set to no
>>>archive there will be NO COPIES of his original comments. If you are
>>>debating anyone like this please ensure you quote their entire message
>>>before responding (and the header as well).
>>>
>>>I find this all very ironic as it came about because Johannes claimed "no
>>>evidence for Jesus outside the New Testament"
>>>
>>>Now he soon would not be able to claim he ever made that claim! LOL!
>>
>> See http://nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/v/von.ebersdorf.johannes/usenet/2009
>
>great! thanks for that? It might be helpful if there was a handier way for 
>people to know about or get such posts or search them. 
>
Poor kenny is so ignorant that he is unable even to put together a
decent database. The list of "out of context fragments", distortions
and outright lies that kenny attributes to me should have been filed
under "E", not under "v". The proper listing would have been
"Ebersdorf, Johannes von".

The rest of the site is of similarly low quality.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Sun May 10 12:55:22 EDT 2009
Article: 2494223 of soc.culture.usa
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.usa
Subject: Re: Torture is a crime against God and Humanity. So, likewise, joyously, with pride, destroy the neocon traitors of Justice - for the true Love you have as Freedom willed - is as granted.
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Thu, 7 May 2009 13:36:58 -0700, "ÇDoügßT"  wrote:

>"staten"  wrote in message 
>news:c26d0cdb-c7d2-4b59-b38c-583d6c00d41f@t10g2000vbg.googlegroups.com...
>On May 2, 7:34 pm, Johnny Law <000000nomailhere...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> http://www.alternet.org/blogs/waroniraq/139006/former_soldier_accused...
>>
>> / / The grisly [BUSHITE RAPIST] crime was
>> initially blamed on insurgents -- "This is
>> what happens when you harbor terrorists," \ \
>>
>> Enemies of every female, and do American "men"
>> have the manhood to defend their own
>> Women from bushite rapists by simply lifting
>> their phones to demand open dialog for Justice?
>
>Johnny , you fucking leftist idiot, are you aware
>about Muslims honor murdering their women ?

Lots of "Christians" have also murdered their wives, and it is only
relatively recently that women were considered "persons" in the legal
sense in Christian countries also.

The fact is that ALL human religions are bunk, and are the cause of
most of the world's problems over the centuries. Most of the people
who follow Islam are quite reasonable, and you are conflating local
custom with the religion of Islam. 

You are being hypocritical by taking it upon yourself to do a
considerable amount of Islam-bashing, but should anybody criticize
some aspect of Judaism, then there are the immediate shrill hysterical
shrieks of "anti-semitism".


> Performing  clitorectomies  on them? About child marriage?
>About child slavery? About human slavery ?
> Are you aware that victims of rape in Islamic world are “guilty”
>by default because they are women and need to present four
>male witnesses to claim being innocent?
>Are you aware that  mature Muslim men  may  sexually abuse
>the  baby girls and it is OK according to the Muslim religious
>teachings?
>Where is your outrage? Where is your "dialog for justice?
> Where is your compassion to women brutally attacked by Islam on
> a daily basis, you fake and phony fraud?
>
>*******************
>Johnny Law's real name is undoubtedly: Farid, Abdul, Ahmed, Ali,
>Muhammad, Farshad, Aladdin etc. 
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed May 13 14:18:55 EDT 2009
Article: 2019033 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Is Cramer retarded?
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Mon, 11 May 2009 06:01:14 +0300, holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene
Holman) wrote:

>In article , "Neil
>Harrington"  wrote:
>
>> "Eugene Holman"  wrote in message 
>> news:holman-1005091256240001@ke-hupnet122-26.hupnet.helsinki.fi...
>
>> My understanding is that the leadership of the original communist (or 
>> Bolshevik) movement in Russia was largely Jewish, 
>
>Your understanding is proven wrong in the light of the historical facts.
>Jews were prominent but still a minority within the original communist
>movement,

The Normans were a tiny minority in the England of 1066, but they
still controlled the place. The fact that Jews were a physical
minority does not preclude the possibility that they had majority
control.

The control clique of any modern corporation consists of a tiny
physical minority of the total community of employees.





> which split into Mensheviks and Bolsheviks. More importantly,
>Communism is deeply opposed to religious and cultural structures, thus it
>is a anti-Jewish as it is anti-Christian. I see little point in calling
>people of Jewish heritage who join a movement, the avowed purpose of which
>is to destroy religions and cultural identities worldwide, Jews.
>
>Source:
>http://www.americanthinker.com/2007/12/wrongfully_accused_jews_and_bo.html
>
>
>Wrongfully Accused: Jews and Bolshevism
>By Bruce Walker
>I wrote recently  about the hostility that the Nazis had for Christians
>and wrote again about Christian opposition to Nazism.  My point was to
>demonstrate that people of the Judeo-Christian faith are fundamentally
>different from people outside the Judeo-Christian faith. 
>
>It was important to demonstrate that the supposed Christian influence on
>the rise of Nazism was not just a myth, but a conscious rewriting of
>history by those who hate Christians.  The same is true about the rise of
>Bolshevism.  It has become an article of faith for some people who hate
>the Judeo-Christian faith to accuse Jews of causing Bolshevism.  How true
>is this? 
>
>Did the Jewish people inflict Bolshevism upon the world?  One Russian
>rabbi put it best when he said:  "The Trotskys made the revolution and the
>Bronsteins paid the bill." (Bronstein was the real name of the anti-Judaic
>Jew, Trotsky.)  The Bolsheviks overthrew the democratically elected
>government which had tossed the Tsars out of power in 1917, and many
>Bolsheviks were Jewish, but the democratically elected leader of Russia
>that they overthrew, Aleksandr Kerensky, was Jewish too. He would later be
>one of the most vocal critics of the Bolsheviks.
>
>Hitler made great hay from the fact that Kamenev, Zinoview and other early
>Bolshevik leaders were Jewish, but  Hitler not only condemned Bolshevism
>as a Jewish conspiracy (like he considered Christianity to be a Jewish
>conspiracy), but he also considered "Finance Capitalism" to be identical
>to "Bolshevism" and lumped the two together as part of one vast Jewish
>conspiracy.  He casually ignored the fact that Jews who were prominent in
>the early Bolshevik governments were weeded out, made to confess at show
>trials in Moscow, and either murdered or removed permanently from power.  
>
>
>
>Marxism is clearly very hostile to Jews and to Judaism, and the attitude
>of Marxists is almost identical to the attitude of their sibling
>Sinisterists, Nazis.
>
>Were there Jews among the Communists in the western democracies? 
>Certainly, but that is only half the story.  Jews were also some of the
>most effective and passionate anti-communists.  The intellectual argument
>against Marxism was very effectively made by Jews like Ayn Rand, Milton
>Friedman and Arthur Koestler.  The political anti-communist movement often
>was led by Jews converted to Christianity like Barry Goldwater and Dr.
>Schwartz.  Cold War heroes inlcude Admiral Hyman G. Rickover, whose
>patriotic tenacity single-handedly created the nuclear submarine force,
>which was the strongest part of America's triad strategic response, and
>Morris Childs (and his wife), nominally the number two man in the
>Communist Party USA, but actually a super-secret FBI agent whose
>incredibly courageous work provided Washington with priceless intelligence
>from within the Kremlin. 
>
>The myth of Christian indifference to the Holocaust is one bookend to the
>grand lie about Christians and Jews.  The myth of Communism being the
>product of Jewish machinations is the other bookend of that grand lie. 
>Serious Christians and devout Jews are not the cause of the problem of
>evil in this world:  they are, instead, the only cure.
>
>
>> and for example most if 
>> not all of the group that kept the Czar and his family imprisoned and 
>> eventually murdered them were Jewish. 
>
>Thus is true. But they didn't do it because they were Jews. They did it
>because they were political terrorists. Anyone who deposed the czar would
>be stupid indeed not assassinate him and his family to prevent anyone from
>claiming the Romanov throne. The bodies were destroyed to prevent their
>burial place from becoming fetishized as a shrine.
>
>> American Jews have even taken credit 
>> for their co-religionists having essentially created the Soviet state.
>
>And you can give a few specific names? How does this correlate with the
>fact that some of the most anti-Soviet Americans such as Ayn Rand, Milton
>Friedman, and Hyman Rickover were Jews.
> 
>> Didn't the communists even set up an "autonomous" Jewish state in the 
>> U.S.S.R.?
>
>Yes, they did. It was in the Amur region bordering on China 8
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Map_of_Russia_-_Jewish_Autonomous_Oblast_(2008-03).svg).
>Needless to say, few Soviet Jews were interested in pulling up stakes and
>settling there. 
> 
>> But later on, as I understand it, Jews lost favor in the communist regime 
>> and were discriminated against to some considerable degree.
>> 
>> What you've just written about Jews "who rose to decision-making postions of 
>> power" but later "were all purged (etc.)" seems to support this, in fact.
>
>Communism and Judaism are as incompatible as fire and water. That is why
>any discussion of the role of Jews within communism has to begin with a
>definition of Jew. Some people regard the American politician Barry
>Goldwater as a Jew because his ancestry. I do not, because he renounced
>Judaism and always self-identified as a Christian.
>
>Regards,
>Eugene Holman


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed May 13 14:18:56 EDT 2009
Article: 2019041 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'No Jews' policy employed at Austria hotel
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Sun, 10 May 2009 13:12:35 -0700, "ÇDoügßT"  wrote:

>"Heinrich"  wrote in message 
>news:76ok9nF1e0lfdU1@mid.individual.net...
>>A hotel in the Austrian region of Tyrol that said it does not accept Jewish 
>>guests has caused shock in the local media and tourism industry, the daily 
>>Tiroler Tageszeitung reported Sunday.
>>
>> A Vienna family of seven had had tried to make a reservation at the Haus 
>> Sonnenhof apartment hotel in the village of Serfaus, but the owner replied 
>> by e-mail that although the room was free, she did not want to take in 
>> Jewish guests because of "bad experiences" in the past.
>>
>> The region around Serfaus has become popular among orthodox Jewish 
>> tourists in recent years, and several hotels in Tyrol have begun offering 
>> kosher food.
>>
>> At Hotel Alpenruh-Micheluzzi, owner Petra Micheluzzi told the German Press 
>> Agency DPA that the rejection by the Sonnenhof was "bad for the image" of 
>> Serfaus.
>>
>> One such incident could destroy all the hard work by others in the travel 
>> industry, she said, a view echoed by local and regional tourism officials.
>>
>> "That's terrible," said Esther Fritsch, the president of the regional 
>> Jewish community. So far there have been no such incidents, she told the 
>> newspaper.
>>
>> Irmgard Monz, the owner of the Haus Sonnenhof apartment hotel, could not 
>> be reached for comment on Sunday. In an interview with Tiroler 
>> Tageszeitung, she offered no justification for her e-mail.
>>
>> For his part, the rejected father of five has decided to spend the summer 
>> elsewhere: "I don't want to spend my vacation in such a racist nest, and I 
>> will inform all my friends about what is going on in Tyrol," the 
>> unidentified man was quoted as saying.
>> __________________
>>
>
>So he'd rather have muslimes as guests? 
>
Why not?


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed May 13 14:18:56 EDT 2009
Article: 2019042 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'No Jews' policy employed at Austria hotel
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
Message-ID: <3seg055rg8sbkjuaub897a97mohstjo0ke@4ax.com>
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On Sun, 10 May 2009 14:28:39 -0700, "ÇDoügßT"  wrote:

>"Heinrich"  wrote in message 
>news:76orl5F1d4n4jU1@mid.individual.net...
>>
>> "ÇDoügßT"  schreef in bericht 
>> news:yJGNl.16399$pr6.482@flpi149.ffdc.sbc.com...
>>> "Heinrich"  wrote in message 
>>> news:76ok9nF1e0lfdU1@mid.individual.net...
>>>>A hotel in the Austrian region of Tyrol that said it does not accept 
>>>>Jewish guests has caused shock in the local media and tourism industry, 
>>>>the daily Tiroler Tageszeitung reported Sunday.
>>>>
>>>> A Vienna family of seven had had tried to make a reservation at the Haus 
>>>> Sonnenhof apartment hotel in the village of Serfaus, but the owner 
>>>> replied by e-mail that although the room was free, she did not want to 
>>>> take in Jewish guests because of "bad experiences" in the past.
>>>>
>>>> The region around Serfaus has become popular among orthodox Jewish 
>>>> tourists in recent years, and several hotels in Tyrol have begun 
>>>> offering kosher food.
>>>>
>>>> At Hotel Alpenruh-Micheluzzi, owner Petra Micheluzzi told the German 
>>>> Press Agency DPA that the rejection by the Sonnenhof was "bad for the 
>>>> image" of Serfaus.
>>>>
>>>> One such incident could destroy all the hard work by others in the 
>>>> travel industry, she said, a view echoed by local and regional tourism 
>>>> officials.
>>>>
>>>> "That's terrible," said Esther Fritsch, the president of the regional 
>>>> Jewish community. So far there have been no such incidents, she told the 
>>>> newspaper.
>>>>
>>>> Irmgard Monz, the owner of the Haus Sonnenhof apartment hotel, could not 
>>>> be reached for comment on Sunday. In an interview with Tiroler 
>>>> Tageszeitung, she offered no justification for her e-mail.
>>>>
>>>> For his part, the rejected father of five has decided to spend the 
>>>> summer elsewhere: "I don't want to spend my vacation in such a racist 
>>>> nest, and I will inform all my friends about what is going on in Tyrol," 
>>>> the unidentified man was quoted as saying.
>>>> __________________
>>>>
>>>
>>> So he'd rather have muslimes as guests?
>>> to give you peacei can informyou that in that aereaof austria, tyrol, 
>>> there are very few muslims, however,for some reasons the aerea is 
>>> infested with jews and not everybody likes that
>>
>
>"Infested with Jews" eh? Let's look at the Jewish population in
>Austria:
>
>The Jews of Austria are an ancient Jewish community likely originating in an 
>exodus from the Roman occupation of Israel.

That isn't that likely. Apparently the 1850 percentage of Jews in Wien
was slightly less than 3% and by 1920 it was up to 12%. These are all
people who wandered in from Poland and Russia, and had little or no
connection to the middle east. Ethnically, the people of Austria are
Bavarians who settled the alpine region that is now Austria in the 8th
and 9th centuries.





> During the course of many 
>centuries, the political status of the community rose and fell many times: 
>during certain periods, the Jewish community prospered and enjoyed political 
>equality, and during other periods, the Jewish community suffered pogroms, 
>deportations and anti-Semitism. The Holocaust decimated the Jewish community 
>in Austria and only 8,140 Jews remained in Austria according to the 2001 
>census, but other estimates place the current figure between 9,000[1], 
>15,000[2] and 20,000 people[3].
>
>The total population of Austria is some 8 million.
>
>If Vienna is any indication 
>(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Austria) the Jewish
>population in Austria is 0.5%.
>
>Maybe you better take a better look at your Turkish population: 
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Austria
>Considering Turkey is nearly 100% muslime, and the rate at which the Turkish 
>muslime
>population is growing in Austria relative to your Jewish population, maybe 
>you better
>pull your head out of your arse and re-evaluate your "infestation" theory. 
>The muslime
>population of Austria is 4.2%, which is some 8 TIMES THE SIZE OF THE JEWISH 
>POPULATION. 
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed May 13 14:18:56 EDT 2009
Article: 2019045 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'No Jews' policy employed at Austria hotel
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On Sun, 10 May 2009 16:46:17 -0700, "ÇDoügßT"  wrote:

>"B.H. Cramer"  wrote in message 
>news:4MGdnSqnT_1cxJrXnZ2dnVY3go-dnZ2d@giganews.com...
>> ÇDoügßT wrote:
>>> "Heinrich"  wrote in message
>>> news:76orl5F1d4n4jU1@mid.individual.net...
>>>>
>>>> "ÇDoügßT"  schreef in bericht
>>>> news:yJGNl.16399$pr6.482@flpi149.ffdc.sbc.com...
>>>>> "Heinrich"  wrote in message
>>>>> news:76ok9nF1e0lfdU1@mid.individual.net...
>>>>>> A hotel in the Austrian region of Tyrol that said it does not
>>>>>> accept Jewish guests has caused shock in the local media and
>>>>>> tourism industry, the daily Tiroler Tageszeitung reported Sunday.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A Vienna family of seven had had tried to make a reservation at
>>>>>> the Haus Sonnenhof apartment hotel in the village of Serfaus, but
>>>>>> the owner replied by e-mail that although the room was free, she
>>>>>> did not want to take in Jewish guests because of "bad experiences"
>>>>>> in the past. The region around Serfaus has become popular among 
>>>>>> orthodox Jewish
>>>>>> tourists in recent years, and several hotels in Tyrol have begun
>>>>>> offering kosher food.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> At Hotel Alpenruh-Micheluzzi, owner Petra Micheluzzi told the
>>>>>> German Press Agency DPA that the rejection by the Sonnenhof was
>>>>>> "bad for the image" of Serfaus.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> One such incident could destroy all the hard work by others in the
>>>>>> travel industry, she said, a view echoed by local and regional
>>>>>> tourism officials.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "That's terrible," said Esther Fritsch, the president of the
>>>>>> regional Jewish community. So far there have been no such
>>>>>> incidents, she told the newspaper.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Irmgard Monz, the owner of the Haus Sonnenhof apartment hotel,
>>>>>> could not be reached for comment on Sunday. In an interview with
>>>>>> Tiroler Tageszeitung, she offered no justification for her e-mail.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For his part, the rejected father of five has decided to spend the
>>>>>> summer elsewhere: "I don't want to spend my vacation in such a
>>>>>> racist nest, and I will inform all my friends about what is going
>>>>>> on in Tyrol," the unidentified man was quoted as saying.
>>>>>> __________________
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> So he'd rather have muslimes as guests?
>>>>> to give you peacei can informyou that in that aereaof austria,
>>>>> tyrol, there are very few muslims, however,for some reasons the
>>>>> aerea is infested with jews and not everybody likes that
>>>>
>>>
>>> "Infested with Jews" eh? Let's look at the Jewish population in
>>> Austria:
>>
>> It only needs one, dhug.
>>
>
>You and the islamonazi pigs deserve one another.

Please ply your demented racist crap elsewhere. When you run around
doing gratuitous Muslim-bashing, then you give other people permission
to bash Jews. There is no difference between anti-semitism, which you
claim to deplore, and what you are doing above, except for the choice
of target.





> Maybe you
>better go down and buy your prayer rug and koran then beginning
>learning Arabic today -- because you're gonna need it and you
>might as well avoid the rush. 
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed May 13 14:18:57 EDT 2009
Article: 2019047 of alt.revisionism
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Subject: Re: jews are a nuissance in poland
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On Mon, 11 May 2009 07:54:42 +0200, "Heinrich"
 wrote:

>The list of losses Israeli teenagers' visits leave behind is long and 
>costly. It begins with burned carpets in Polish hotels, and ends with Jewish 
>teenagers' trauma. But more and more often with local residents' trauma too.
>
>Roberto Lucchesini, originally from Tuscany, for several years now a 
>resident of Krakow, hasn't been sleeping well recently. Before he will be 
>able to move his arms normally again, he will have to go through long rehab. 
>All this because of how he was treated, in broad daylight in front of 
>passers-by and several teenagers who were hermetically closed in their 
>coach-buses. Israeli bodyguards, equipped with firearms, binded his arms 
>behind his back over his head with handcuffs. In Krakow, in the middle of 
>the street. A moment before, the Italian was trying to make coach drivers 
>parking in front of his house turn their engines off. - 'Israelis handcuffed 
>me, threw me on the ground, my face landed in dog excrement, and then they 
>were kicking me'. After that the perpetrators were gone. Italian had to be 
>freed by the Polish police.
>
>Lucchesini moved to Kazimierz, a district of Kraków, that used to be a 
>Jewish commune of which the only things left now are synagogues and 
>memories, often painful. He found an apartment with a view on the 
>synagogue. - 'Back then I had thought this was the most beautiful place on 
>Earth' - he says - 'after some time I understood that the place is indeed 
>beautiful, but not for its today's residents'.
>
>Kicking instead of answers
>
>Another resident of Kazimierz, Beata W., office worker, is of similar 
>opinion. Israeli security searched her handbag on one of the streets, 
>without telling her why.
>- 'When I asked what was this all about, they told me to shut up. I 
>listened, I stopped talking, I was afraid they'd tell me to get undressed 
>next' - she says annoyed.
>A young polish Jew, who as usual in Sabbath, went to pray in his synagogue 
>couple months ago, also didn't get his answer. He only asked, why can't he 
>enter the temple. Instead of an answer, he got kicked.
>- 'I saw this with my own eyes' - says Mike Urbaniak, the editor of Forum Of 
>Polish Jews and correspondent of European Jewish Press in Poland. - 'I saw 
>how my friend is being brutally attacked by security agents from Israel, 
>without any reason.'
>
>All this apparently in sake of Israeli childrens' safety.
>- 'For Poles it may be difficult to understand, but security agents 
>accompany Israelis at all times, both in Israel and abroad' - explains 
>Michal Sobelman, a spokesman for Israeli embassy in Poland. - 'This is a 
>parents' demand, otherwise they wouldn't agree for any kind of trip. Poland 
>is no exception.'

Why does the government of Poland tolerate this? Israeli security
people have no authority in Poland, or anywhere else outside of
Israel.

In the case of Mr. Lucchesini, had this happened in Toronto, the
Israeli guards would have been charged with "illegal possession of a
firearm", "threatening", "forcible confinement", "assault causing
bodily harm", and "illegal application of police authority". Some of
the foregoing are life-imprisonment charges.

Mr. Sobelman's opinions aside, the guards involved should remain in
Poland for the next twenty years while they serve their prison
sentences for this outrage.

>
>But it was in Poland, as Mike Urbaniak reports, where Jews from Israel 
>brutally kicked a Polish Jew in front of a synagogue, and then threatened 
>him with prison. In plain view of the Israeli teenagers.
>
>- 'We are very sorry when we hear about such incidents' - Sobelman admits - 
>'Detailed analysis is carried out in each case. We will do everything we 
>can, to prevent such situations in the future. Maybe we will have to change 
>training methods of our security agents, so that they would know Poland is 
>not like Israel, that the scale of threats here is insignificant?
>
>Professor Moshe Zimmermann, head of German History Institute at Hebrew 
>University in Jerusalem thinks however, that the problem is not only in the 
>security agents' behaviour. He thinks Israelis basically think that Poles 
>aren't equal partners for them. And it's not only that they think Poles can't 
>ensure their children's safety.
>
>- 'They are not equal partners to any kind of discussion. It applies also to 
>our common history, contemporary history and politics. In result Israeli 
>youth see Poles as second category people, as potential enemies' - he 
>explains bluntly.
>
>An instruction on conduct with the local inhabitants given away to Israeli 
>teenagers coming to Poland couple years ago may confirm professor's opinion. 
>It contained such a paragraph: 'Everywhere we will be surrounded by Poles. 
>We will hate them because of their participation in Holocaust'.
>
>- 'Agendas of our teenagers' trips to Poland are set in advance by the 
>Israeli government, and are not flexible' - says Ilona Dworak-Cousin, the 
>chairwoman of the Polish-Israeli Friendship Association in Israel. - 'Those 
>trips basically come down to visiting, one by one, the places of 
>extermination of Jews. From that perspective Poland is just a huge Jewish 
>graveyard. And nothing more. Meeting living people, for those who organise 
>these trips, is meaningless.'
>
>A resident of Kraków's Kazimierz district, who is of Jewish descent, says 
>that there is nothing wrong with that: - 'Israelis don't come to Poland for 
>holiday. Their aim is to see the sites of Shoah and listen to the terrifying 
>history of their families, history that often is not told to them by their 
>grandparents, because of its emotional weight. Often young people who are 
>leaving, cry, phone their parents and say "why didn't you tell me it was 
>that horrible?". To be frank, I am not surprised they have no interest in 
>talking about Lajkonik'.
>
>However according to Ilona Dworak-Cousin the lack of contact with Poles, 
>causes Israeli youth to confuse victims with the perpetrators. - 'They start 
>to think it were the Poles who created concentration camps for Jews, that it 
>is the Polish who were and still are the biggest anti-Semites in the world - adds Dworak-Cousin, who is Jewish herself.
>
>The above mentioned Kraków resident has a different opinion. - 'I don't 
>believe anyone was telling them that the Poles had been doing this. That's 
>why there is no need for discussing anything with the Poles'.
>
>Teenagers behaving badly
>
>However, many Israelis say that although the instruction was eventually 
>changed, the attitude to Poles has not changed at all.
>- 'Someone in Israel some day decided, that our children going to Poland 
>have to be hermetically surrounded by security' - says Lili Haber president 
>of Cracovians Association in Israel. - 'Someone decided that young Israelis 
>cannot meet young Poles, and cannot walk the streets. Basically these visits 
>aren't anything else but a several-day-long voluntary prison.'
>
>Voluntary, but also very expensive: 1400 USD per person. Not every Israeli 
>parent can afford such a trip.
>
>- 'Moreover, as it turns out, the children are too young, to visit sites of 
>mass murders' - adds dr Ilona Dworak-Cousin. Traumatic experiences that 
>accompany visits in death camps have its consequences. Kids become 
>aggressive. And instead of getting to know the country of their ancestors, 
>in which Jews and Poles lived in symbiosis for over 1000 years, Israeli 
>teenagers cause one scandal after another.
>
>It happens sometimes, that somewhere between Majdanek and Treblinka, young 
>Israelis spend their time on striptease ordered via the hotel telephone. It 
>happens sometimes, that the hotel service has to collect human excrement 
>from hotel beds and washbasins. It happens sometimes, that hotels have to 
>give money back to other tourists, who cannot sleep because Israeli kids 
>decided to play football in hotel corridor. In the middle of the night.
>
>6-year-old Krzys from Kazimierz played football too. On Sunday night on 15th 
>April, after shooting two goals, he wanted to go home, as usual. He lives 
>near a synagogue, in front of which hundreds of young Israelis have gathered 
>on celebrations preceding March of Living. Just before Szeroka street he was 
>stopped by some not-so-nice men. - 'This is a semi-private area today. There 
>is no entry' - he was told. It didn't help, when he told them, his mum will 
>get upset if he won't be home on time.
>
>Security officers, which is interesting, were Polish this time and 
>accompanied by the Polish police. They also denied access to the area to a 
>Dutch couple, who had reserved a table at one of the restaurants on Szeroka 
>street six months ago. - 'Is this a free country?' - One of the tourists 
>tried to make sure.
>
>
>On a normal day you can access Szeroka street from several sides. That 
>evening from none. I tried to get through myself, without any success. Only 
>eventually, the police helped me to pass the security line.
>
>- 'There are no official restrictions here' - they were convincing me a 
>moment later, although the "unofficial practice" was different.
>
>- 'We have only set certain restrictions in movement' - Sylvia 
>Bober-Jasnoch, a spokeswoman for Malopolska Region Police press service, 
>explained to me later.
>
>The police cannot say anything else. Polish law does not allow residents to 
>be denied access to the streets they live at. Even during the so called mass 
>events (however the celebrations on Szeroka did not have that status) 
>residents have the right to go back to their homes and tourists have the 
>right to dine in a restaurant. Also Israeli security agents have no right to 
>stop or search passers-by.
>
>I tried to find out more on the rights of Israeli security agents in Poland. 
>First at the Polish Ministry of Foreign Affairs, from where my question was 
>sent to.. the Ministry of Education. I have also sent questions to the Home 
>Office. Although I was promised, I received no answer. Only person eager to 
>talk on that matter was Maciej Kozlowski, former ambassador in Israel, 
>currently the Plenipotentiary of the Minister of Foreign Affairs for 
>Polish-Israeli relations.
>
>- 'Regulations are imprecise' - admits Kozlowski. 'Basically bodyguards from 
>a foreign country should not move around Poland armed. However for the 
>government of Israel security matters are a priority. Any convincing that 
>their citizens should use the services of Polish security turned 
>unsuccessful'.
>
>Airplane like battle field
>
>The Polish-Italian couple, Robert Lucchesini, his wife Anna, and their 
>two-year-old daughter, cannot understand Polish government's attitude. Which 
>contrary to the Israeli government, is not able to ensure the safety of its 
>citizens. Safety is not the only thing among the pair's priorities, but also 
>peace and quietness. They are however being woken up every morning by the 
>loud noises of engines, of the Polish coach-buses with groups of Israeli 
>youth. Their Polish drivers brake driving regulations all the time. They're 
>allowed to park at the square near the synagogue (in front of Robert's 
>house) only for up to 10 minutes. They stay there much longer, even hours. 
>With their engines turned on. Reason? Youth's safety - they would be able to 
>leave quicker in case of a threat. And because Israeli kids need to be 
>served coffee. Because even though Kazimierz is full of cafes, Israeli 
>teenagers don't go there. They are being told: no contacts with environment, 
>no talking to passers-by, no smiles nor gestures.
>
>This has been going for years. Israeli groups contact with Poles only there 
>where they have to. First in airplanes.
>
>- 'A plane after such group has landed, looks like a battle field' - admits 
>a worker of LOT Polish Airlines asking for his name not to be published. - 
>'The worst thing is these kids' attitude to Polish staff. Recently a 
>stewardess was slapped by a teenager in her face. Because he had been 
>waiting for his coca-cola too long'.
>
>Leszek Chorzewski, LOT spokesman, admits that Israeli youth is a difficult 
>customer. - 'They demand not only more attention then other passengers, but 
>also more security precautions' - he adds. These precautions are long 
>aircraft and airport controls conducted by Israeli services. These are also 
>the high demands of the teenagers' security agents.
>
>Katarzyna Lazuga, student from Poznan, could see that first hand. She 
>participated in a tourist guides' training on one of Polish airports. 'Young 
>people from Israel entered the room we were in', she recalls. - 'Our group 
>was then made to stop classes and rushed out of the room. Israeli security 
>officers told us to go out, right now and without any talking. Because. we 
>were "staring" at their clients. Yes, we were looking at them. They were 
>catching attention, they were good looking.'
>
>Young Israelis see Poles also there, where they board - in Polish hotels. If 
>any of them still wants to have them. Most of those in Kraków don't want to 
>any more.
>
>
>- 'We have resigned from admitting Israeli youth once and for all' - admits 
>Agnieszka Tomczyk, assistant manageress in a chain of hotels called System. 
>'We could not afford to refund the loses after their stays any more'.
>
>These loses being: demolished rooms, broken chairs and tables, human 
>excrements in washbasins or trash bins, or like in Astoria, other hotel in 
>Kraków, burned carpet. Astoria also backs out from having Israeli groups. 
>One of the reasons is that the teenagers' security agents were ordering 
>other guests, whom they didn't like, to leave.
>
>- 'I understand that Israeli security agents are over-sensitive to any 
>disturbing signals. They are coming from a country where bombs explode 
>almost daily, and young people die in terrorist attacks' - ensures Mike 
>Urbaniak. - 'But Poland is one of the safest countries in Europe. Here, 
>excluding tiny number of incidents, Jews are not being attacked, and Jewish 
>institutions don't need security, which is very unusual on a world scale'.
>
>Huge business
>
>Chasidim, travelling in great numbers from Israel, also (surprisingly) don't 
>need security agents. Including for example many Orthodox Jews, who came to 
>visit our country recently, as they wanted to pray at Tzadik of Lelów's 
>grave. They came to the market square in Kazimierz without any security 
>assistance and without any fear.
>
>- 'They chatted eagerly with tourists interested in their outfits, with 
>passers-by who don't see Jews with side curls every day' - adds Urbaniak.
>
>In Kazimierz chasidim are nothing unusual. Like groups of Israeli teenagers. 
>This year 30,000 Israeli teenagers are coming to Poland, and they will have 
>800 security agents to protect them.
>
>Roberto Lucchesini reported to the Polish police that he got beaten by 
>Israeli security. Krakow Prosecution Office is investigating the case, and 
>so is its counterpart in Israel.
>
>- 'Results of this investigation are of medium importance' - thinks Ilona 
>Dworak-Cousin. - 'What matters is if the youth that visits Poland, will 
>still treat it as hostile and completely alien country'.
>
>Polish-Israeli Friendship Association in Israel and Cracovians Association 
>in Israel both try to convince the government of their country, not to send 
>any more teenagers to see only the death camps in Poland. Chances are slim.
>
>- 'These trips are mostly a huge business for people who organise them' - 
>says Lili Haber - 'including Israeli bodyguards'.
>
>C O M M E N T S
>
>  Szewach Weiss, former speaker of Knesseth, former Israel's ambassador in 
>Poland:
>  I have a dream: I would like Israeli youth to come to Poland not only to 
>see death camps, but also to see the life of Polish cities and towns. That 
>they would even stay under one roof with Polish young people, so that after 
>some time Poles would visit them back in Israel, that Poles would be invited 
>and welcomed there. Is that one of those dreams that will never come true? I 
>don't think so, I believe that it will come true in 5 years at worst. In the 
>meanwhile the most important thing is to change the current form of Israeli 
>teenagers' trips. A perfect solution would be direct contact between Israeli 
>and Polish schools. That would have given a real chance to talk, exchange 
>ideas, or even have an argument. I would however like the Poles to 
>understand our difficult position, how deep is in us that idea that our 
>children could lose their lives, even in a country as peaceful as yours. Of 
>course that does not give anyone right to brutal behaviour towards Poles. 
>Aggression is aggression, regardless of circumstances.
>
>  Yuli Amir, Israel's Education Minister:
>  I think that Israeli youth doesn't think good or bad about Poland or 
>Poles. These trips are more about them, their Jewish identity. This is such 
>Jewish feeling, that the whole world was against us, and Poland was on the 
>wrong side too. You have to remember, that for many years Israeli youth has 
>been rejecting Holocaust. For them it was a specimen, of how not to act. 
>"Why did we go like sheep for death?"Holocaust was that weakness, they didn't 
>want to identify with. By coming to Auschwitz they have started to treat the 
>victims of Shoah differently. This is a moral rehabilitation of Jewish past. 
>of course we are aware of imperfections of the visits programme, we are 
>considering changes. We discuss a lot, we think what influence these trips 
>have on youth, on education. But all changes need time.
>
>  Mike Urbaniak, editor of Forum Of Polish Jews and correspondent of 
>European Jewish Press in Poland:
>  I have met many Israelis in my life. Most of them are great, cheerful and 
>exceptionally open people. They don't have superiority complex. Everyone, 
>who has at least once been in Israel has to admit that. In Poland however 
>their image is getting worse and worse. And this will continue, if those 
>trips will still look like a visit in countryside museum. This is a problem 
>that needs to be solved in Israel as soon as possible.
>
>* * *


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed May 13 14:18:58 EDT 2009
Article: 2019048 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: jews are a nuissance in poland
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On Mon, 11 May 2009 16:57:13 +1000, "B. Cramer"
 wrote:

>They are a problem wherever they decide to infest, Heinrich.

The Israeli guards would not have done that in Moscow, for example,
because they would have known that they would likely be executed on
the street, right then and there, by the KGB or other security forces.
They did it in Poland because they deemed to Polish authorities to be
weak.

>
>
>"Heinrich"  wrote in message 
>news:76pst8F1dqrchU1@mid.individual.net...
>> The list of losses Israeli teenagers' visits leave behind is long and 
>> costly. It begins with burned carpets in Polish hotels, and ends with 
>> Jewish teenagers' trauma. But more and more often with local residents' 
>> trauma too.
>>
>> Roberto Lucchesini, originally from Tuscany, for several years now a 
>> resident of Krakow, hasn't been sleeping well recently. Before he will be 
>> able to move his arms normally again, he will have to go through long 
>> rehab. All this because of how he was treated, in broad daylight in front 
>> of passers-by and several teenagers who were hermetically closed in their 
>> coach-buses. Israeli bodyguards, equipped with firearms, binded his arms 
>> behind his back over his head with handcuffs. In Krakow, in the middle of 
>> the street. A moment before, the Italian was trying to make coach drivers 
>> parking in front of his house turn their engines off. - 'Israelis 
>> handcuffed me, threw me on the ground, my face landed in dog excrement, 
>> and then they were kicking me'. After that the perpetrators were gone. 
>> Italian had to be freed by the Polish police.
>>
>> Lucchesini moved to Kazimierz, a district of Kraków, that used to be a 
>> Jewish commune of which the only things left now are synagogues and 
>> memories, often painful. He found an apartment with a view on the 
>> synagogue. - 'Back then I had thought this was the most beautiful place on 
>> Earth' - he says - 'after some time I understood that the place is indeed 
>> beautiful, but not for its today's residents'.
>>
>> Kicking instead of answers
>>
>> Another resident of Kazimierz, Beata W., office worker, is of similar 
>> opinion. Israeli security searched her handbag on one of the streets, 
>> without telling her why.
>> - 'When I asked what was this all about, they told me to shut up. I 
>> listened, I stopped talking, I was afraid they'd tell me to get undressed 
>> next' - she says annoyed.
>> A young polish Jew, who as usual in Sabbath, went to pray in his synagogue 
>> couple months ago, also didn't get his answer. He only asked, why can't he 
>> enter the temple. Instead of an answer, he got kicked.
>> - 'I saw this with my own eyes' - says Mike Urbaniak, the editor of Forum 
>> Of Polish Jews and correspondent of European Jewish Press in Poland. - 'I 
>> saw how my friend is being brutally attacked by security agents from 
>> Israel, without any reason.'
>>
>> All this apparently in sake of Israeli childrens' safety.
>> - 'For Poles it may be difficult to understand, but security agents 
>> accompany Israelis at all times, both in Israel and abroad' - explains 
>> Michal Sobelman, a spokesman for Israeli embassy in Poland. - 'This is a 
>> parents' demand, otherwise they wouldn't agree for any kind of trip. 
>> Poland is no exception.'
>>
>> But it was in Poland, as Mike Urbaniak reports, where Jews from Israel 
>> brutally kicked a Polish Jew in front of a synagogue, and then threatened 
>> him with prison. In plain view of the Israeli teenagers.
>>
>> - 'We are very sorry when we hear about such incidents' - Sobelman 
>> admits - 'Detailed analysis is carried out in each case. We will do 
>> everything we can, to prevent such situations in the future. Maybe we will 
>> have to change training methods of our security agents, so that they would 
>> know Poland is not like Israel, that the scale of threats here is 
>> insignificant?
>>
>> Professor Moshe Zimmermann, head of German History Institute at Hebrew 
>> University in Jerusalem thinks however, that the problem is not only in 
>> the security agents' behaviour. He thinks Israelis basically think that 
>> Poles aren't equal partners for them. And it's not only that they think 
>> Poles can't ensure their children's safety.
>>
>> - 'They are not equal partners to any kind of discussion. It applies also 
>> to our common history, contemporary history and politics. In result 
>> Israeli youth see Poles as second category people, as potential enemies' - 
>> he explains bluntly.
>>
>> An instruction on conduct with the local inhabitants given away to Israeli 
>> teenagers coming to Poland couple years ago may confirm professor's 
>> opinion. It contained such a paragraph: 'Everywhere we will be surrounded 
>> by Poles. We will hate them because of their participation in Holocaust'.
>>
>> - 'Agendas of our teenagers' trips to Poland are set in advance by the 
>> Israeli government, and are not flexible' - says Ilona Dworak-Cousin, the 
>> chairwoman of the Polish-Israeli Friendship Association in Israel. - 
>> 'Those trips basically come down to visiting, one by one, the places of 
>> extermination of Jews. From that perspective Poland is just a huge Jewish 
>> graveyard. And nothing more. Meeting living people, for those who organise 
>> these trips, is meaningless.'
>>
>> A resident of Kraków's Kazimierz district, who is of Jewish descent, says 
>> that there is nothing wrong with that: - 'Israelis don't come to Poland 
>> for holiday. Their aim is to see the sites of Shoah and listen to the 
>> terrifying history of their families, history that often is not told to 
>> them by their grandparents, because of its emotional weight. Often young 
>> people who are leaving, cry, phone their parents and say "why didn't you 
>> tell me it was that horrible?". To be frank, I am not surprised they have 
>> no interest in talking about Lajkonik'.
>>
>> However according to Ilona Dworak-Cousin the lack of contact with Poles, 
>> causes Israeli youth to confuse victims with the perpetrators. - 'They 
>> start to think it were the Poles who created concentration camps for Jews, 
>> that it is the Polish who were and still are the biggest anti-Semites in 
>> the world - adds Dworak-Cousin, who is Jewish herself.
>>
>> The above mentioned Kraków resident has a different opinion. - 'I don't 
>> believe anyone was telling them that the Poles had been doing this. That's 
>> why there is no need for discussing anything with the Poles'.
>>
>> Teenagers behaving badly
>>
>> However, many Israelis say that although the instruction was eventually 
>> changed, the attitude to Poles has not changed at all.
>> - 'Someone in Israel some day decided, that our children going to Poland 
>> have to be hermetically surrounded by security' - says Lili Haber 
>> president of Cracovians Association in Israel. - 'Someone decided that 
>> young Israelis cannot meet young Poles, and cannot walk the streets. 
>> Basically these visits aren't anything else but a several-day-long 
>> voluntary prison.'
>>
>> Voluntary, but also very expensive: 1400 USD per person. Not every Israeli 
>> parent can afford such a trip.
>>
>> - 'Moreover, as it turns out, the children are too young, to visit sites 
>> of mass murders' - adds dr Ilona Dworak-Cousin. Traumatic experiences that 
>> accompany visits in death camps have its consequences. Kids become 
>> aggressive. And instead of getting to know the country of their ancestors, 
>> in which Jews and Poles lived in symbiosis for over 1000 years, Israeli 
>> teenagers cause one scandal after another.
>>
>> It happens sometimes, that somewhere between Majdanek and Treblinka, young 
>> Israelis spend their time on striptease ordered via the hotel telephone. 
>> It happens sometimes, that the hotel service has to collect human 
>> excrement from hotel beds and washbasins. It happens sometimes, that 
>> hotels have to give money back to other tourists, who cannot sleep because 
>> Israeli kids decided to play football in hotel corridor. In the middle of 
>> the night.
>>
>> 6-year-old Krzys from Kazimierz played football too. On Sunday night on 
>> 15th April, after shooting two goals, he wanted to go home, as usual. He 
>> lives near a synagogue, in front of which hundreds of young Israelis have 
>> gathered on celebrations preceding March of Living. Just before Szeroka 
>> street he was stopped by some not-so-nice men. - 'This is a semi-private 
>> area today. There is no entry' - he was told. It didn't help, when he told 
>> them, his mum will get upset if he won't be home on time.
>>
>> Security officers, which is interesting, were Polish this time and 
>> accompanied by the Polish police. They also denied access to the area to a 
>> Dutch couple, who had reserved a table at one of the restaurants on 
>> Szeroka street six months ago. - 'Is this a free country?' - One of the 
>> tourists tried to make sure.
>>
>>
>> On a normal day you can access Szeroka street from several sides. That 
>> evening from none. I tried to get through myself, without any success. 
>> Only eventually, the police helped me to pass the security line.
>>
>> - 'There are no official restrictions here' - they were convincing me a 
>> moment later, although the "unofficial practice" was different.
>>
>> - 'We have only set certain restrictions in movement' - Sylvia 
>> Bober-Jasnoch, a spokeswoman for Malopolska Region Police press service, 
>> explained to me later.
>>
>> The police cannot say anything else. Polish law does not allow residents 
>> to be denied access to the streets they live at. Even during the so called 
>> mass events (however the celebrations on Szeroka did not have that status) 
>> residents have the right to go back to their homes and tourists have the 
>> right to dine in a restaurant. Also Israeli security agents have no right 
>> to stop or search passers-by.
>>
>> I tried to find out more on the rights of Israeli security agents in 
>> Poland. First at the Polish Ministry of Foreign Affairs, from where my 
>> question was sent to.. the Ministry of Education. I have also sent 
>> questions to the Home Office. Although I was promised, I received no 
>> answer. Only person eager to talk on that matter was Maciej Kozlowski, 
>> former ambassador in Israel, currently the Plenipotentiary of the Minister 
>> of Foreign Affairs for Polish-Israeli relations.
>>
>> - 'Regulations are imprecise' - admits Kozlowski. 'Basically bodyguards 
>> from a foreign country should not move around Poland armed. However for 
>> the government of Israel security matters are a priority. Any convincing 
>> that their citizens should use the services of Polish security turned 
>> unsuccessful'.
>>
>> Airplane like battle field
>>
>> The Polish-Italian couple, Robert Lucchesini, his wife Anna, and their 
>> two-year-old daughter, cannot understand Polish government's attitude. 
>> Which contrary to the Israeli government, is not able to ensure the safety 
>> of its citizens. Safety is not the only thing among the pair's priorities, 
>> but also peace and quietness. They are however being woken up every 
>> morning by the loud noises of engines, of the Polish coach-buses with 
>> groups of Israeli youth. Their Polish drivers brake driving regulations 
>> all the time. They're allowed to park at the square near the synagogue (in 
>> front of Robert's house) only for up to 10 minutes. They stay there much 
>> longer, even hours. With their engines turned on. Reason? Youth's safety - 
>> they would be able to leave quicker in case of a threat. And because 
>> Israeli kids need to be served coffee. Because even though Kazimierz is 
>> full of cafes, Israeli teenagers don't go there. They are being told: no 
>> contacts with environment, no talking to passers-by, no smiles nor 
>> gestures.
>>
>> This has been going for years. Israeli groups contact with Poles only 
>> there where they have to. First in airplanes.
>>
>> - 'A plane after such group has landed, looks like a battle field' - 
>> admits a worker of LOT Polish Airlines asking for his name not to be 
>> published. - 'The worst thing is these kids' attitude to Polish staff. 
>> Recently a stewardess was slapped by a teenager in her face. Because he 
>> had been waiting for his coca-cola too long'.
>>
>> Leszek Chorzewski, LOT spokesman, admits that Israeli youth is a difficult 
>> customer. - 'They demand not only more attention then other passengers, 
>> but also more security precautions' - he adds. These precautions are long 
>> aircraft and airport controls conducted by Israeli services. These are 
>> also the high demands of the teenagers' security agents.
>>
>> Katarzyna Lazuga, student from Poznan, could see that first hand. She 
>> participated in a tourist guides' training on one of Polish airports. 
>> 'Young people from Israel entered the room we were in', she recalls. - 
>> 'Our group was then made to stop classes and rushed out of the room. 
>> Israeli security officers told us to go out, right now and without any 
>> talking. Because. we were "staring" at their clients. Yes, we were looking 
>> at them. They were catching attention, they were good looking.'
>>
>> Young Israelis see Poles also there, where they board - in Polish hotels. 
>> If any of them still wants to have them. Most of those in Kraków don't 
>> want to any more.
>>
>>
>> - 'We have resigned from admitting Israeli youth once and for all' - 
>> admits Agnieszka Tomczyk, assistant manageress in a chain of hotels called 
>> System. 'We could not afford to refund the loses after their stays any 
>> more'.
>>
>> These loses being: demolished rooms, broken chairs and tables, human 
>> excrements in washbasins or trash bins, or like in Astoria, other hotel in 
>> Kraków, burned carpet. Astoria also backs out from having Israeli groups. 
>> One of the reasons is that the teenagers' security agents were ordering 
>> other guests, whom they didn't like, to leave.
>>
>> - 'I understand that Israeli security agents are over-sensitive to any 
>> disturbing signals. They are coming from a country where bombs explode 
>> almost daily, and young people die in terrorist attacks' - ensures Mike 
>> Urbaniak. - 'But Poland is one of the safest countries in Europe. Here, 
>> excluding tiny number of incidents, Jews are not being attacked, and 
>> Jewish institutions don't need security, which is very unusual on a world 
>> scale'.
>>
>> Huge business
>>
>> Chasidim, travelling in great numbers from Israel, also (surprisingly) 
>> don't need security agents. Including for example many Orthodox Jews, who 
>> came to visit our country recently, as they wanted to pray at Tzadik of 
>> Lelów's grave. They came to the market square in Kazimierz without any 
>> security assistance and without any fear.
>>
>> - 'They chatted eagerly with tourists interested in their outfits, with 
>> passers-by who don't see Jews with side curls every day' - adds Urbaniak.
>>
>> In Kazimierz chasidim are nothing unusual. Like groups of Israeli 
>> teenagers. This year 30,000 Israeli teenagers are coming to Poland, and 
>> they will have 800 security agents to protect them.
>>
>> Roberto Lucchesini reported to the Polish police that he got beaten by 
>> Israeli security. Krakow Prosecution Office is investigating the case, and 
>> so is its counterpart in Israel.
>>
>> - 'Results of this investigation are of medium importance' - thinks Ilona 
>> Dworak-Cousin. - 'What matters is if the youth that visits Poland, will 
>> still treat it as hostile and completely alien country'.
>>
>> Polish-Israeli Friendship Association in Israel and Cracovians Association 
>> in Israel both try to convince the government of their country, not to 
>> send any more teenagers to see only the death camps in Poland. Chances are 
>> slim.
>>
>> - 'These trips are mostly a huge business for people who organise them' - 
>> says Lili Haber - 'including Israeli bodyguards'.
>>
>> C O M M E N T S
>>
>>  Szewach Weiss, former speaker of Knesseth, former Israel's ambassador in 
>> Poland:
>>  I have a dream: I would like Israeli youth to come to Poland not only to 
>> see death camps, but also to see the life of Polish cities and towns. That 
>> they would even stay under one roof with Polish young people, so that 
>> after some time Poles would visit them back in Israel, that Poles would be 
>> invited and welcomed there. Is that one of those dreams that will never 
>> come true? I don't think so, I believe that it will come true in 5 years 
>> at worst. In the meanwhile the most important thing is to change the 
>> current form of Israeli teenagers' trips. A perfect solution would be 
>> direct contact between Israeli and Polish schools. That would have given a 
>> real chance to talk, exchange ideas, or even have an argument. I would 
>> however like the Poles to understand our difficult position, how deep is 
>> in us that idea that our children could lose their lives, even in a 
>> country as peaceful as yours. Of course that does not give anyone right to 
>> brutal behaviour towards Poles. Aggression is aggression, regardless of 
>> circumstances.
>>
>>  Yuli Amir, Israel's Education Minister:
>>  I think that Israeli youth doesn't think good or bad about Poland or 
>> Poles. These trips are more about them, their Jewish identity. This is 
>> such Jewish feeling, that the whole world was against us, and Poland was 
>> on the wrong side too. You have to remember, that for many years Israeli 
>> youth has been rejecting Holocaust. For them it was a specimen, of how not 
>> to act. "Why did we go like sheep for death?"Holocaust was that weakness, 
>> they didn't want to identify with. By coming to Auschwitz they have 
>> started to treat the victims of Shoah differently. This is a moral 
>> rehabilitation of Jewish past. of course we are aware of imperfections of 
>> the visits programme, we are considering changes. We discuss a lot, we 
>> think what influence these trips have on youth, on education. But all 
>> changes need time.
>>
>>  Mike Urbaniak, editor of Forum Of Polish Jews and correspondent of 
>> European Jewish Press in Poland:
>>  I have met many Israelis in my life. Most of them are great, cheerful and 
>> exceptionally open people. They don't have superiority complex. Everyone, 
>> who has at least once been in Israel has to admit that. In Poland however 
>> their image is getting worse and worse. And this will continue, if those 
>> trips will still look like a visit in countryside museum. This is a 
>> problem that needs to be solved in Israel as soon as possible.
>>
>> * * *
>> 


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed May 13 14:18:59 EDT 2009
Article: 2019343 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Is Cramer retarded?
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On Mon, 11 May 2009 15:14:44 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
 wrote:

>
>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message 
>news:nsbg059ud540732ttegnu8rjorv989vv76@4ax.com...
>> On Mon, 11 May 2009 06:01:14 +0300, holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene
>> Holman) wrote:
>>
>>>In article , "Neil
>>>Harrington"  wrote:
>>>
>>>> "Eugene Holman"  wrote in message
>>>> news:holman-1005091256240001@ke-hupnet122-26.hupnet.helsinki.fi...
>>>
>>>> My understanding is that the leadership of the original communist (or
>>>> Bolshevik) movement in Russia was largely Jewish,
>>>
>>>Your understanding is proven wrong in the light of the historical facts.
>>>Jews were prominent but still a minority within the original communist
>>>movement,
>>
>> The Normans were a tiny minority in the England of 1066, but they
>> still controlled the place. The fact that Jews were a physical
>> minority does not preclude the possibility that they had majority
>> control.
>
>I submit you probably know as little of Norman History as you know about 
>anything else! hint: look up "feudal soicieties" In fact Normans DIDNT 
>control England. a Norman King wrested the Monarchy but "Norman control" 
>could only come about when most vassal Lords (many of whom  were also Norman 
>as well) were loyal to that Norman King.  A good example is the conquest and 
>Colonization of Ireland.

Good lord, woman, how can anybody be this full of shit? Go away.

>
>>
>> The control clique of any modern corporation consists of a tiny
>> physical minority of the total community of employees.
>
>The fact that at it HIGHEST less than six percent of the "controling clique" 
>of Communism - the communist Party- were Jews and even less were at higher 
>levels and as they went on their numbers dwindled DOES mean Jews didnt 
>control the Communist party!
>
>>
>>
>[snip] 
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed May 13 14:19:00 EDT 2009
Article: 2019344 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Beacon IS retarded
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Mon, 11 May 2009 23:58:08 +1000, "B. Cramer"
 wrote:

>
>"Mavisbeacon"  wrote in message 
>news:18ae9$4a082d72$596480f8$5709@news.upc.ie...
>

She has yet to say anything that makes any sense.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed May 13 14:19:00 EDT 2009
Article: 2019367 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: jews are a nuissance in poland
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On Mon, 11 May 2009 18:25:28 +0300, holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene
Holman) wrote:

>In article ,
>ebersdorf@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 11 May 2009 16:57:13 +1000, "B. Cramer"
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> >They are a problem wherever they decide to infest, Heinrich.
>> 
>> The Israeli guards would not have done that in Moscow, for example,
>> because they would have known that they would likely be executed on
>> the street, right then and there, by the KGB or other security forces.
>
>Probably not.
>
>1. The KGB was replaced by the FSB almost two decades ago.

The name has in fact changed, but not the methodology.

>2. Moscow is a showplace city for the Russians, and excessive brutality by
>the militsiya* (= local police) is not usually allowed.

That isn't what is printed in Canadian news magazines about the Putin
regime.

>3. Russia does not have a death sentence.

Not officially, they don't, but lots of criminals don't survive their
arrest.

>4. Until proven otherwise, the execution-style murders of journalists and
>political opponents, are the work of the various mafias and
>killers-for-hire that are a part of the Russian criminal underworld.
>
>> They did it in Poland because they deemed to Polish authorities to be
>> weak.
>
>I would think that they did it in Poland because they, the Israeli guards,
>were a bunch of stupid schmucks.
>
>
>
>Regards,
>Eugene Holman


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed May 13 14:19:00 EDT 2009
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Beacon IS retarded
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On Mon, 11 May 2009 15:07:45 -0400, "Neil Harrington"
 wrote:

>
>"I'll Always Be 11/05/09"  wrote in message 
>news:aussies_suck-6F7A58.09432011052009@aries.ka.weretis.net...
>
>
>
>I'm killfiling you on this computer also BTW, so you might want to change 
>your name to "I'll Always Be Plonked."
>
>Plonk. 
>
You'll be accused of "running away" by the exterminationists. I have
killfiled a few of them for the same reason that people put line
filters on communications cables, namely to improve the
signal-to-noise ratio.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed May 13 14:19:01 EDT 2009
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Beacon IS retarded
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Mon, 11 May 2009 15:31:27 -0700 (PDT), "Bent Attorney Esq."
 wrote:

>On May 11, 3:07 pm, "Neil Harrington"  wrote:
>> "I'll Always Be 11/05/09"  wrote in messagenews:aussies_suck-6F7A58.09432011052009@aries.ka.weretis.net...
>>
>> 
>>
>> I'm killfiling you on this computer also BTW, so you might want to change
>> your name to "I'll Always Be Plonked."
>>
>> Plonk.
>
>'I'll always be' is an idiot.  Sometimes he's fun to play with though.
>I think he's a 13 year old.  Maybe even a pre-teen.

I would have thought that he is an octogenarian with a mental age of
13.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed May 13 14:19:01 EDT 2009
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Subject: Re: Demjanjuk makes nostalgic pilgrimage to Germany
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On Tue, 12 May 2009 09:06:51 +0300, holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene
Holman) wrote:

>In article ,
>kmcvay@shell.vex.net (Kenneth McVay OBC) wrote:
>
>> In article ,
>> The hapless Intellectual Giant of Holocaust Revisionism, 
>> Kurt Knoll, reigning Village Idiot of Kitimat  and Laughing 
>> Stock of UseNet, fluffed his Chicken Yellow Hitler Jugend
>> Tutu with the "keiner da" Cross and  wrote:
>> 
>> >Here we have seen the power of the holocaust industries in action. Who will 
>> >they finger next to keep the hollow saga in the limelight.
>> 
>> Here we see justice, asshole.
>
>Although I understand your point, I respectfully disagree. Mr. Demjanjuk
>was a Soviet POW and he was apparently forced to commit criminal acts in
>order to survive. I think we all know how the Nazis treated Soviet POWs
>that they could not exploit.
>
>Putting aside for the moment the issues of coercion, justoce, and a
>person's right to try to survive even if it means carrying out acts that
>in a normal world would be absolutely criminal, Mr. Demjanjuk was tried,
>found guilty, and received a death sentence in Israel some twenty years
>ago for acts he allegedly committed as a Soviet POW at a Nazi death camp.
>The sentence was eventually overturned by the Israeli Supreme Court, which
>decided that the evidence against him was inconclusive, but Mr. Demjanjuk
>came closer than most people ever do to a date with the hangman. I see
>little use, twenty years later, to rake him over the coals once again,
>even if Germany does not have a death sentence. The pitiable old man is
>being subjected to double jeopardy after having had to live for more than
>sixty years with the memory of his wartime experiences and for more than
>twenty years with these charges, trials, the death sentence, the dramatic
>overturn thereof, and the loss of his home and citizenship at the age of
>89. He is being made a scapegoat, and, even if the crimes that he was
>evidently forced to commit in order to survive  offend human dignity, I
>protest against the manner in which his human dignity is now being
>offended.
>
>Regards,
>Eugene Holman

It also goes against all modern thinking in corrections. Demjanuk is
clearly NOT a danger to society, so there is simply no justification
for imprisonment. Imprisonment is not intended as punishment, but is
intended to protect society from people who have no self-control.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed May 13 14:19:01 EDT 2009
Article: 2019375 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Demjanjuk arrives at German prison
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Tue, 12 May 2009 13:26:34 +0200, "Heinrich"
 wrote:

>      Accused Nazi death camp guard John Demjanjuk, deported from the U.S. 
>to face accusations of being accessory to the murder of 29,000 Jews and 
>others in 1943, was transferred to a German prison Tuesday.
>
>      Timeline of the Demjanjuk case
>
>      The retired Ohio autoworker arrived at Munich's airport from Cleveland 
>at
>      a  Advertisement
>
>      bout 9:15 A.M. local time aboard a private jet. The plane taxied 
>directly into a hangar, accompanied by police vehicles and an ambulance.
>
>      From there he was transported by ambulance, under police escort, to a 
>special medical unit of the Stadelheim prison, where he will be examined by 
>a doctor and formally arrested.
>
>      Demjanjuk's transfer to Germany raises the prospect of the last major 
>Nazi trial in Germany although the 89-year-old, one of the world's most 
>wanted war crimes suspects, may yet be deemed unfit to stand trial.
>
>      The retired U.S. auto worker had fought his deportation for months but 
>in the end, U.S. courts rejected his appeals. Demjanjuk, born in Ukraine, 
>has denied any role in the Holocaust.
>
>      Demjanjuk was carried in a wheelchair onto a jet that departed Monday 
>evening for Germany, which wants to try him as an accessory to the murders 
>of Jews and others at a Nazi death camp in World War II.
>
>      Demjanjuk, 89, arrived in an ambulance at Cleveland Burke Lakefront 
>Airport after spending several hours with U.S. immigration officials at a 
>downtown federal building. Airport commissioner Khalid Bahhur confirmed 
>Demjanjuk was on the plane and that its destination is Germany.
>
>      The deportation came four days after the U.S. Supreme Court refused to 
>consider Demjanjuk's request to block deportation and about 3 1/2 years 
>after he was last ordered deported.
>
>      The Ukrainian-born Demjanjuk (pronounced dem-YAHN'-yuk) is wanted on a 
>Munich arrest warrant that accuses him of 29,000 counts of accessory to 
>murder as a guard at the Sobibor death camp in Nazi-occupied Poland. The 
>legal case spans three decades.
>
>      A German Justice Ministry spokesman, Ulrich Staudigl, said the retired 
>autoworker was expected to be in Germany by Tuesday.
>
>      Demjanjuk denies Germany's accusations, saying he was held by the 
>Germans as a Soviet prisoner of war and was never a camp guard. Demjanjuk's 
>family fought deportation, arguing he is in poor health and might not 
>survive the trans-Atlantic journey.
>
>      Rabbi Marvin Hier, a founder of the Los Angeles-based Simon Wiesenthal 
>Center, said Demjanjuk deserves to be punished and that this will probably 
>be the last trial of someone accused of Nazi war crimes.
>
>      "His work at the Sobibor death camp was to push men, women and 
>children into the gas chamber," Hier said in a statement. "He had no mercy, 
>no pity and no remorse for the families whose lives he was destroying."
>
>      The center was established to locate and help bring to justice Nazi 
>war criminals.
>
>      The deportation capped a day in which Demjanjuk said goodbye to his 
>family and was visited by two priests at his home in a Cleveland suburb.
>
>      He then slipped quietly into an ambulance parked in his driveway, his 
>family members standing at the edge of the garage and holding up a 
>floral-patterned bedsheet to block the view of reporters and photographers 
>across the street.
>
>      Earlier Monday, his son, John Demjanjuk Jr., said an appeal in a U.S. 
>court would go ahead even if his father isn't in the country.
>
>      "Given the history of this case and not a shred of evidence that he 
>ever hurt one person let alone murdered anyone anywhere, this is inhuman 
>even if the courts have said it is lawful," Demjanjuk Jr. said.
>
>      Also Monday, a Berlin court rejected an appeal aimed at preventing 
>deportation.
>
>      Once in Germany, Demjanjuk will be brought before a judge and formally 
>charged. He will also be given the opportunity to make a statement to the 
>court, in keeping with standard procedure, Staudigl said.
>
>      Demjanjuk is expected to be held in the medical unit of a Munich 
>prison. The government has said preparations have been made at the facility 
>to ensure he will receive appropriate care.
>
>      The case dates to 1977 when the Justice Department moved to revoke 
>Demjanjuk's U.S. citizenship, alleging he hid his past as a Nazi death camp 
>guard.
>
>      Demjanjuk had been tried in Israel after accusations surfaced that he 
>was the notorious Ivan the Terrible at the Treblinka death camp in Poland. 
>He was found guilty in 1988 of war crimes and crimes against humanity, a 
>conviction overturned by the Israeli Supreme Court.
>
>      A U.S. judge revoked his citizenship in 2002 based on U.S. Justice 
>Department evidence showing he concealed his service at Sobibor and other 
>Nazi-run death and forced-labor camps.
>
>      An immigration judge ruled in 2005 he could be deported to Germany, 
>Poland or Ukraine. Munich prosecutors issued an arrest warrant for him in 
>March.
>
Unfortunately, Germany operates under Roman Law, so when somebody is
charged, they are assumed to be guilty and the onus is on the accused
to prove his innocence, practically mission impossible more than sixty
years after the fact.

All this whole affair does, is degrade the reputation of Germany as a
state where the rule of law is in place. Clearly, the German justice
system is being abused as an instrument of revenge by some small
special-interest groups.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed May 13 14:19:02 EDT 2009
Article: 2019376 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Is Cramer retarded?
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Tue, 12 May 2009 13:14:32 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
 wrote:

>
>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message 
>news:qvni051h1bpe567kiq3n70v4jlreialh55@4ax.com...
>> On Mon, 11 May 2009 15:14:44 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
>>  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message
>>>news:nsbg059ud540732ttegnu8rjorv989vv76@4ax.com...
>>>> On Mon, 11 May 2009 06:01:14 +0300, holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene
>>>> Holman) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>In article , "Neil
>>>>>Harrington"  wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> "Eugene Holman"  wrote in message
>>>>>> news:holman-1005091256240001@ke-hupnet122-26.hupnet.helsinki.fi...
>>>>>
>>>>>> My understanding is that the leadership of the original communist (or
>>>>>> Bolshevik) movement in Russia was largely Jewish,
>>>>>
>>>>>Your understanding is proven wrong in the light of the historical facts.
>>>>>Jews were prominent but still a minority within the original communist
>>>>>movement,
>>>>
>>>> The Normans were a tiny minority in the England of 1066, but they
>>>> still controlled the place. The fact that Jews were a physical
>>>> minority does not preclude the possibility that they had majority
>>>> control.
>>>
>>>I submit you probably know as little of Norman History as you know about
>>>anything else! hint: look up "feudal soicieties" In fact Normans DIDNT
>>>control England. a Norman King wrested the Monarchy but "Norman control"
>>>could only come about when most vassal Lords (many of whom  were also 
>>>Norman
>>>as well) were loyal to that Norman King.  A good example is the conquest 
>>>and
>>>Colonization of Ireland.
>>
>> Good lord, woman, how can anybody be this full of shit? Go away.
>
>The normans didnt "control England" in 1066 as you claim! On 8 sepember the 
>english Kind defeated a 300 ship Norwegian invasion leaving what was left of 
>the invading Army then escaped in only 20 Ships! But the english Army did 
>suffer some loss. the Normans landed on 28 September and Harold's weakened 
>army  fought them on 14 October. They made the mistake of Advancing on 
>Knights and also Harold was killed so the English broke and fled. The 
>English however had a new king Crowned and William had to defeat his army. 
>the Normans did that and william was crowned King in westminster on 25 
>December. bnut sucessive English uprisings lasted for several years! Also 
>harolds sons attacked from Ireland in 1069 and the Danes also invaded. 
>CONTROL as you call it by Norman rule only came about betewwn 1072 and 1086 
>when the Doomsday Book was produced.

None of that changes the fact that the Normans took over England and
errected an absolute monarchy, despite being only a very small
minority of the general public.

>
>
>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> The control clique of any modern corporation consists of a tiny
>>>> physical minority of the total community of employees.
>>>
>>>The fact that at it HIGHEST less than six percent of the "controling 
>>>clique"
>>>of Communism - the communist Party- were Jews and even less were at higher
>>>levels and as they went on their numbers dwindled DOES mean Jews didnt
>>>control the Communist party!
>
>
>You are just WRONG and your knowledge of Norman history is as Scant as that 
>of Communist Russia! 
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed May 13 14:19:02 EDT 2009
Article: 2019377 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: jews are a nuissance in poland
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Tue, 12 May 2009 23:24:57 +1000, "B. Cramer"
 wrote:

>
>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message 
>news:m9ti051gadf1muqvuq4jqo4sv2qjplbp99@4ax.com...
>> On Mon, 11 May 2009 18:25:28 +0300, holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene
>> Holman) wrote:
>>
>>>In article ,
>>>ebersdorf@gmail.com wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Mon, 11 May 2009 16:57:13 +1000, "B. Cramer"
>>>>  wrote:
>>>>
>>>> >They are a problem wherever they decide to infest, Heinrich.
>>>>
>>>> The Israeli guards would not have done that in Moscow, for example,
>>>> because they would have known that they would likely be executed on
>>>> the street, right then and there, by the KGB or other security forces.
>>>
>>>Probably not.
>>>
>>>1. The KGB was replaced by the FSB almost two decades ago.
>>
>> The name has in fact changed, but not the methodology.
>>
>>>2. Moscow is a showplace city for the Russians, and excessive brutality by
>>>the militsiya* (= local police) is not usually allowed.
>>
>> That isn't what is printed in Canadian news magazines about the Putin
>> regime.
>
>How dare you have the audacity to challenge Holman.
>
>Do you not know the 11th Commandment?
>
>"Thou shalt have no opinion but Holman's"

You mean to say that I've added another heresy to my list?  LOL

>
>
>
>>
>>>3. Russia does not have a death sentence.
>>
>> Not officially, they don't, but lots of criminals don't survive their
>> arrest.
>>
>>>4. Until proven otherwise, the execution-style murders of journalists and
>>>political opponents, are the work of the various mafias and
>>>killers-for-hire that are a part of the Russian criminal underworld.
>>>
>>>> They did it in Poland because they deemed to Polish authorities to be
>>>> weak.
>>>
>>>I would think that they did it in Poland because they, the Israeli guards,
>>>were a bunch of stupid schmucks.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Regards,
>>>Eugene Holman
>> 


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed May 13 14:19:03 EDT 2009
Article: 2019718 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Beacon IS retarded
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
Message-ID: 
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On Tue, 12 May 2009 09:45:26 -0400, "Neil Harrington"
 wrote:

>Johannes von Ebersdorf wrote:
>> On Mon, 11 May 2009 15:07:45 -0400, "Neil Harrington"
>>  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> "I'll Always Be 11/05/09"  wrote in
>>> message
>>> news:aussies_suck-6F7A58.09432011052009@aries.ka.weretis.net...
>>>
>>> 
>>>
>>> I'm killfiling you on this computer also BTW, so you might want to
>>> change your name to "I'll Always Be Plonked."
>>>
>>> Plonk.
>>>
>> You'll be accused of "running away" by the exterminationists.
>
>Yes, I already have been. Why they believe the "running away" thing earns 
>them some sort of debate points I do not know.
>
>
>> I have
>> killfiled a few of them for the same reason that people put line
>> filters on communications cables, namely to improve the
>> signal-to-noise ratio.
>
>Absolutely. When I killfile any of them I always use the "Delete all 
>messages by" option and it's wonderful how that cleans up and improves the 
>newsgroup. 
>
My newsreader marks them as "read", so they become invisible. The
effect is the same as your approach.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed May 13 14:19:03 EDT 2009
Article: 2019719 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Beacon IS retarded
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
Message-ID: 
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On Wed, 13 May 2009 08:31:23 +1000, "B. Cramer"
 wrote:

>Doc Tony wrote:
>> Neil Harrington wrote:
>>> Johannes von Ebersdorf wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Mon, 11 May 2009 15:07:45 -0400, "Neil Harrington"
>>>>  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> "I'll Always Be 11/05/09"  wrote in
>>>>> message
>>>>> news:aussies_suck-6F7A58.09432011052009@aries.ka.weretis.net...
>>>>>
>>>>> 
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm killfiling you on this computer also BTW, so you might want to
>>>>> change your name to "I'll Always Be Plonked."
>>>>>
>>>>> Plonk.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You'll be accused of "running away" by the exterminationists.
>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, I already have been. Why they believe the "running away" thing
>>> earns them some sort of debate points I do not know.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> I have
>>>> killfiled a few of them for the same reason that people put line
>>>> filters on communications cables, namely to improve the
>>>> signal-to-noise ratio.
>>>
>>>
>>> Absolutely. When I killfile any of them I always use the "Delete all
>>> messages by" option and it's wonderful how that cleans up and
>>> improves the newsgroup.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> This is rich from two 'well known' long distance runners to boot! The
>> 'killfile' or 'plonk' gambit/routine has historically been used as a
>> track shoes with oversize cleats beat feet shield. So too, it is also
>> much dependent, when considering the 'why' of it, exactly what the
>> supposed 'cause' of the gambit was, in effect, was the 'plonker' being
>> simply cursed at or receiving perhaps the 100th [or 500th] same
>> wordage redundant message ==or== was the plonker simply being
>> 'called' on their wares  and asked to 'defend' them! Ahhhh! For some
>> posters, that becomes a big problem in the sense that they are used
>> to pontificating or making sweeping statements but when asked to
>> 'defend' what they have to say, this they are 'not' used to and hence
>> run away. Further, they can become easily frustrated when their own
>> method(s) of classic, which is to say, tired and often juvenile
>> blow-offs are ineffective  and they can not deal with various
>> counter-modes that can be mustered or utilized to counter their
>> blow-offs while still making point and putting them on the spot to
>> either produce .. or fold.
>> Some practical examples: Crackpot® Freddy Berg comes to mind. The
>> pronouncements are made ["The Allies were the really bad guys in World
>> War II ... we should be eternally grateful to Adolf Hitler for saving
>> western civilization ... Zyklon B was the 'salvation' of the Jewish
>> people! ... What is needed is a world revolution against the Jews,
>> Islamic types, Christians [!] and "crackpot revisionists" [sic - Berg
>> ... and related Berg drool] and then when challenged [read: Freddy is
>> 'quickly' put on the ropes and the knock-out punch is just a matter of
>> time], the now classic and wholly predictable Berg reaction is the
>> opponent's "vanishing post" in its totality. A definite sign that
>> Freddy has hit the canvas and only the 10-count remains.
>>
>> But the thing to do is to 'look' at that vanishing post of the
>> opponent and what is being said! Is it a list of junior high school
>> level insults or 4 letter word blow-offs ==or== is it in fact a
>> challenge to produce the facts for their wares and defend same! Big
>> difference there.
>> Neil "Rewriteman®" Harrington uses the identical Berg tactic, the
>> disappearing post and eventually folds being quite proud that he has
>> plonked yet 'another' poster but this assumes that the readers are
>> simply too dim to know the 'reason' for the plonk and will figure, in
>> Neil's mind anyway, that poor Neil was somehow a 'victim' [!] of
>> repeated nasties and blow-offs when in fact it is generally a case
>> where Neil was tasked to provide his evidence [or, indeed, jog his
>> memory a la the Harrington 'Seneca' [sic] nym drool] for his
>> findings. Or, conversely, has been proven to not know what he was
>> talking about as in the Tripartite Pact matter where Neil was
>> convinced that Hitler 'had' to declare war on the USA due to the
>> Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. This was/is of course pure bosh yet
>> it will be noticed that Neil has no problem in listing what others
>> may list incorrectly yet recoils when his own material is shown to be
>> woefully uninformed. Put simply, Neil resents being challenged and
>> when that is done enough times, he runs!
>> "Papagei®" Ebe does the same thing. Case in point: "Everybody who fell
>> into allied hands was mistreated." [sic] Clearly non defensible
>> especially when Ebe employs the usual broad brush and wall roller
>> approach in statements that border on off the wall drool as in the
>> "Germany should go the way of the DDR and simply disappear" [sic]
>> statement but when asked to defend that, he beats feet.
>>
>> Al "Not Personally Involved®" Smith. Another runner when either
>>  reciting borrowed gems from "It Never Happened®!" websites or making
>> crude 'jokes' which generally backfire if only because of their
>> crudeness that leave, shall we say, an aroma behind as when Al talks
>> of "chewing foreskins" [sic] or making with his KZ 'humor' as in Anne
>> Frank, you know, "cough -- cough -- cough -- choke!" [sic]. Real
>> 'funny', yes? But that's Al! Al still remains totally convinced that David 
>> Irving was a "target" even when it is common knowledge that Irving brought
>> the libel litigation which forced the defendants to prove their case in a 
>> nation [UK] which mandates that the defendants in any libel
>> action , and unlike other nations, are then on the spot to make their
>> case and prove that there was no libel. The Plaintiff need do
>> nothing! The defendants 'did' prove their case and to the
>> satisfaction of the reviewing three Justice Appellate level as well
>> and on judicial appeal. Ditto, BTW, in terms of  Irving's 'personal'
>> fault once again, the Austrian open warrant matter  where even
>> Irving's own family and closest friends advised him to 'not' go to
>> Austria in the presence of a 'known' open warrant for his arrest.  So
>> he goes anyway. He asked for ... and he got it! But to AR nym Al Smith, 
>> it's still a "Jewish/Zionist plot" or, indeed, to Ben
>> 'Chameleon®" Cramer, a 'lose-lose' situation as Ben is convinced that
>> the Jews  "control" virtually all the democratic nations judiciary
>> systems and hence the old, as Ben puts it, "Jewish hammer and
>> bulldozer" [sic] at work.
>> And so it goes. But this too: In 12+ years of Usenet, I have never
>> used foul language against a poster. Ever. I've employed various
>> modes of response including satire [which I do professionally outside
>> of Usenet] but the purpose of which is to highlight what alleged
>> 'evidence' is being put on the table and exposing it for what it is
>>  'especially' when it is not otherwise defended by its purveyor with
>> facts! Thereby, there is the tendency to run and hide when one is pressed 
>> to defend
>> their wares and they can not do so or refuse to do so generally
>> because their wares are inherited from 3rd parties and simply
>> regurgitated or their 'evidence' is merely an 'opinion' which is of
>> course anyone's right, true enough, but which does NOT constitute
>> proof! Hence the old but at the same ironically 'valid' canard,
>> 'Because I say so is not proof' and this is true! However, there are
>> posters who believe that when they pontificate, including opinion,
>> this is suddenly, as I said before, the poster perceived 'Burning
>> Bush' and 'Oracle at Delphi' speaking and they dislike being
>> challenged on their views. So they run!
>> Finally this as to the farce of the 'plonk' routine/gambit. The very
>> moment another poster or 3rd party if you will, comments on an issue
>> within the same thread, the 'plonk' is immediately nullified in any
>> event because the, shall we say, 'plonkee' comments will duly appear
>> and in toto so who is kidding whom with the 'plonk' gambit? And this
>> doesn't even consider those cases where 'plonks' suddenly and
>> magically become 'unplonked' [!] at least until the 'plonker' is
>> further pressed to produce their evidence and just as suddenly it's
>> the classic 'plonk' gambit all over again! Having 5 computer systems
>> [!] excuses notwithstanding. I'll also venture to say that it's my
>> own view that most 'plonk' gambits are a complete crock and the
>> poster merely wishes to avoid being called on their wares even tho'
>> they will duly see comments via 3rd party comment.
>>
>> But then too, the runners and such beat feet tactics, especially the
>> perpetual ones, becomes quite telling not to mention the visible point
>> with 'others' when they again employ the 'plonk' to again take off but
>> the reader sees the difference in terms of the 'reason' for the run
>> ... were they being redundantly insulted ==or== were they being
>> pressed to defend their wares! Look at Kurt! I've never seen the guy
>> use a plonk routine, never, he just goes on and on, day to day, the
>> same predictable unsupported dreck and drool yet I've never seen Kurt
>> defend anything he has ever said. Not once in 8 years. Others when
>> pressed to defend their wares simply run utilizing the 'plonk' or
>> 'killfile' as the convenient shield while still prattling on and on
>> only now quite content to simply blow-off other posters and, in some
>> cases, simply trade blow-offs while defense of the wares is totally
>> forgotten so that each poster addresses the readers versus each
>> other. Mind you, this can be a tactic too [Cramer and Holman] but
>> then a point is reached where the thing simply degenerates to name
>> calling although the telling part there is the one who initiates the
>> name calling. Enter Kurt again, I have no problem commenting
>> 'through' Kurt to contradict his "findings" because, quite frankly,
>> there is no reasoning with Kurt and he is content to say the same
>> thing ad infinitum, ad nauseam, even tho' he's shot down virtually
>> every day. His, shall we say, 'Yoga' bendings with regard to his
>> 'ear' and lower corpus 'analytical whizzings' notwithstanding.
>> Runners have reasons for their beating feet and each case should be
>> examined as to the 'why' of it. Clearly, if the extent of it is being
>> termed a 'Nazi' 100 or 1,000 times, well, hey, it could just as well
>> be ignored on the old 'consider the redundant source' thing but when
>> the 'plonk' is based on a call to ante up on their wares and provide
>> proof, well, this is often inconvenient for various posters and when
>> their 'evidence' is subsequently satirized, well, they fold. And run.
>> It's then left to the reader to determine the 'why' of it.
>>
>>
>> Doc Tony
>
>Ferchrissake Tony. Wise up.
>
>This beacon dickhead demands proof for everything and alters its posts to 
>introduce more and more obstructive nonsense on a consistent basis.
>
>We are all expected to swallow the yid version of the Holocaust(tm) 
>wholesale, sans proof, yet these galahs insist on proof to the nth degree 
>for absolutely everything outside the sanctioned yid program.
>
>Her sole purpose is to obstruct. As it is for most of these clods. You need 
>look no further than mcFey's constant, infantile attacks against Kurt Knoll, 
>or jacobsOn's (and its socks) obsession with yours truly.
>
>The shills have never provided on scintilla of solid, tangible, 
>scientifically verifiable proof to support their nonsense, yet they seem to 
>think that's kosher.
>
>It's not.
>
I see that "Doc Tony" had another attack of verbal diarrhea. The guy
seems to have a unique skill at pumping out material in the style of a
"theatre of the absurd".


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed May 13 14:19:04 EDT 2009
Article: 2019720 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Demjanjuk arrives at German prison
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Wed, 13 May 2009 08:55:03 +1000, "B. Cramer"
 wrote:

>Patrick Keenan wrote:
>> "Bent Attorney Esq."  wrote in message
>> news:14cba9cd-6974-4ac1-952a-ddde45c0b6c1@z19g2000vbz.googlegroups.com...
>> On May 12, 7:28 am, Tim Miller 
>> wrote:
>>> Heinrich wrote:
>>>> Accused Nazi death camp guard John Demjanjuk, deported from the
>>>> U.S. to face accusations of being accessory to the murder of 29,000
>>>> Jews and others in 1943, was transferred to a German prison Tuesday.
>>>
>>> Excellent news! Thanks!
>>
>> He hasn't been convicted yet timbit.  Your orgasm is premature.
>> But then what does a conviction mean in a court o' flaw?
>> And for the love of God, please don't start spinning again.  You could
>> upset the balance of nature and cause untold destruction as well as
>> skull judgery.
>>
>> =================
>>
>> He hasn't been convicted ......
>
>In essence he has. The yids have decided he is as guilty as sin. We just 
>haven't seen the usual show trial bullshit associated with this type of yid 
>activity as yet.

In a German court, all the cards are stacked against him. They don't
have a 98% conviction rate by accident. He is considered guilty the
moment he is charged, and trying to defend yourself against charges of
something that happened seventy years ago is almost mission
impossible.

>
>
>
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed May 13 14:19:04 EDT 2009
Article: 2019721 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Demjanjuk arrives at German prison
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Tue, 12 May 2009 19:25:08 -0400, "Neil Harrington"
 wrote:

>Johannes von Ebersdorf wrote:
>> On Tue, 12 May 2009 13:26:34 +0200, "Heinrich"
>>  wrote:
>>
>>>      Accused Nazi death camp guard John Demjanjuk, deported from the
>>> U.S. to face accusations of being accessory to the murder of 29,000
>>> Jews and others in 1943, was transferred to a German prison Tuesday.
>>>
>>>      Timeline of the Demjanjuk case
>>>
>>>      The retired Ohio autoworker arrived at Munich's airport from
>>> Cleveland at
>>>      a  Advertisement
>>>
>>>      bout 9:15 A.M. local time aboard a private jet. The plane taxied
>>> directly into a hangar, accompanied by police vehicles and an
>>> ambulance.
>>>
>>>      From there he was transported by ambulance, under police
>>> escort, to a special medical unit of the Stadelheim prison, where he
>>> will be examined by a doctor and formally arrested.
>>>
>>>      Demjanjuk's transfer to Germany raises the prospect of the last
>>> major Nazi trial in Germany although the 89-year-old, one of the
>>> world's most wanted war crimes suspects, may yet be deemed unfit to
>>> stand trial.
>>>
>>>      The retired U.S. auto worker had fought his deportation for
>>> months but in the end, U.S. courts rejected his appeals. Demjanjuk,
>>> born in Ukraine, has denied any role in the Holocaust.
>>>
>>>      Demjanjuk was carried in a wheelchair onto a jet that departed
>>> Monday evening for Germany, which wants to try him as an accessory
>>> to the murders of Jews and others at a Nazi death camp in World War
>>> II.
>>>
>>>      Demjanjuk, 89, arrived in an ambulance at Cleveland Burke
>>> Lakefront Airport after spending several hours with U.S. immigration
>>> officials at a downtown federal building. Airport commissioner
>>> Khalid Bahhur confirmed Demjanjuk was on the plane and that its
>>> destination is Germany.
>>>
>>>      The deportation came four days after the U.S. Supreme Court
>>> refused to consider Demjanjuk's request to block deportation and
>>> about 3 1/2 years after he was last ordered deported.
>>>
>>>      The Ukrainian-born Demjanjuk (pronounced dem-YAHN'-yuk) is
>>> wanted on a Munich arrest warrant that accuses him of 29,000 counts
>>> of accessory to murder as a guard at the Sobibor death camp in
>>> Nazi-occupied Poland. The legal case spans three decades.
>>>
>>>      A German Justice Ministry spokesman, Ulrich Staudigl, said the
>>> retired autoworker was expected to be in Germany by Tuesday.
>>>
>>>      Demjanjuk denies Germany's accusations, saying he was held by
>>> the Germans as a Soviet prisoner of war and was never a camp guard.
>>> Demjanjuk's family fought deportation, arguing he is in poor health
>>> and might not survive the trans-Atlantic journey.
>>>
>>>      Rabbi Marvin Hier, a founder of the Los Angeles-based Simon
>>> Wiesenthal Center, said Demjanjuk deserves to be punished and that
>>> this will probably be the last trial of someone accused of Nazi war
>>> crimes.
>>>
>>>      "His work at the Sobibor death camp was to push men, women and
>>> children into the gas chamber," Hier said in a statement. "He had no
>>> mercy, no pity and no remorse for the families whose lives he was
>>> destroying."
>>>
>>>      The center was established to locate and help bring to justice
>>> Nazi war criminals.
>>>
>>>      The deportation capped a day in which Demjanjuk said goodbye to
>>> his family and was visited by two priests at his home in a Cleveland
>>> suburb.
>>>
>>>      He then slipped quietly into an ambulance parked in his
>>> driveway, his family members standing at the edge of the garage and
>>> holding up a floral-patterned bedsheet to block the view of
>>> reporters and photographers across the street.
>>>
>>>      Earlier Monday, his son, John Demjanjuk Jr., said an appeal in
>>> a U.S. court would go ahead even if his father isn't in the country.
>>>
>>>      "Given the history of this case and not a shred of evidence
>>> that he ever hurt one person let alone murdered anyone anywhere,
>>> this is inhuman even if the courts have said it is lawful,"
>>> Demjanjuk Jr. said.
>>>
>>>      Also Monday, a Berlin court rejected an appeal aimed at
>>> preventing deportation.
>>>
>>>      Once in Germany, Demjanjuk will be brought before a judge and
>>> formally charged. He will also be given the opportunity to make a
>>> statement to the court, in keeping with standard procedure, Staudigl
>>> said.
>>>
>>>      Demjanjuk is expected to be held in the medical unit of a Munich
>>> prison. The government has said preparations have been made at the
>>> facility to ensure he will receive appropriate care.
>>>
>>>      The case dates to 1977 when the Justice Department moved to
>>> revoke Demjanjuk's U.S. citizenship, alleging he hid his past as a
>>> Nazi death camp guard.
>>>
>>>      Demjanjuk had been tried in Israel after accusations surfaced
>>> that he was the notorious Ivan the Terrible at the Treblinka death
>>> camp in Poland. He was found guilty in 1988 of war crimes and crimes
>>> against humanity, a conviction overturned by the Israeli Supreme
>>> Court.
>>>
>>>      A U.S. judge revoked his citizenship in 2002 based on U.S.
>>> Justice Department evidence showing he concealed his service at
>>> Sobibor and other Nazi-run death and forced-labor camps.
>>>
>>>      An immigration judge ruled in 2005 he could be deported to
>>> Germany, Poland or Ukraine. Munich prosecutors issued an arrest
>>> warrant for him in March.
>>>
>> Unfortunately, Germany operates under Roman Law, so when somebody is
>> charged, they are assumed to be guilty and the onus is on the accused
>> to prove his innocence, practically mission impossible more than sixty
>> years after the fact.
>>
>> All this whole affair does, is degrade the reputation of Germany as a
>> state where the rule of law is in place. Clearly, the German justice
>> system is being abused as an instrument of revenge by some small
>> special-interest groups.
>
>Yes. As if Germany has not already soiled itself by throwing people in 
>prison for speaking out against the Holocaust hoax. What can they be 
>thinking!
>
>The idea of a nation dishonoring its own war dead while imprisoning people 
>for the crime of "defaming the memory of the dead" -- when such "defamation" 
>consists of nothing more than trying to defend the memory of their own 
>people against fraudulent wartime accusations -- simply boggles the mind. 
>What other country has ever done anything like this?
>
>And here in the U.S., Rabbi Marvin Hier and others are crowing about the 
>imprisonment of this 89-year-old man -- already imprisoned and convicted in 
>Israel 30+ years earlier for supposedly being a different concentration camp 
>guard, on the usual "eyewitness testimony" of "Holocaust survivors," only to 
>have that conviction overturned when that testimony was shown to be false.
>
>Well, the hyenas will get him this time, no doubt. He'll die in prison, a 
>great Jewish victory. 
>

The Jewish lobby wastes huge sums of money on frivolous court actions
in Canada also. The wasteful and absurd Zundel trials come to mind.

I hope that Demjanuk gets a courageous lawyer in Germany that is
prepared to risk defending him, since numerous other lawyers have come
to grief trying to defend people accused of thought crimes.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed May 13 14:19:05 EDT 2009
Article: 2019722 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Demjanuk in Hitler prison
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Tue, 12 May 2009 16:05:55 -0700 (PDT), "Bent Attorney Esq."
 wrote:

>On May 12, 12:20 pm, kmc...@shell.vex.net (Kenneth McVay OBC) wrote:
>> In article ,
>> The hapless Intellectual Giant of Holocaust Revisionism,
>> Kurt Knoll, reigning Village Idiot of Kitimat  and Laughing
>> Stock of UseNet, fluffed his Chicken Yellow Hitler Jugend
>> Tutu with the "keiner da" Cross and  wrote:
>>
>> >But everything we see is exactly how the Jewish system works. One just
>> >wonders who the will finger next. Could even be someone who was born after
>> >1945. Let us know when the heckling begins all of us are curious.
>>
>> Do you believe that murdering 29,000 people is all right, Herr Knoll? Are
>> you okay with that?
>>
>
>You obviously think it's OK.  Need we go into your support of the
>allied bombing campaign where 10's of thousands were burned to death,
>maimed, limbs ripped off etc.

Mcvay's "outrage" is tunnel vision to the Nth, where only dead Jews
count.

>
>> --
>> "In the final analysis, one does not refute a closed system, a total
>> lie that is not refutable to the extent that its conclusions has
>> preceded any evidence." (Vidal-Naquet, Pierre. Assassins of Memory,
>> New York: Columbia University Press. p.81)


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed May 13 14:19:05 EDT 2009
Article: 2019723 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: jew knobloch welcomes demjanjuk's deportation
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Wed, 13 May 2009 08:37:01 +1000, "B. Cramer"
 wrote:

>Kenneth McVay OBC wrote:
>> In article
>> ,
>> Bent Attorney Esq.  wrote:
>>> On May 12, 12:26 pm, kmc...@shell.vex.net (Kenneth McVay OBC) wrote:
>>>> In article
>>>> <4f6c9029-2059-4376-a93c-35e7a507a...@h23g2000vbc.googlegroups.com>,
>>>> Bent Attorney Esq.  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On May 12, 10:48 am, "Heinrich"  wrote:
>>>>>> BERLIN (AFP)---The head of Germany's Jewish community on Tuesday
>>>>>> welcomed the expulsion from the US of a former Nazi death camp
>>>>>> guard to face charges that he assisted in the murder of more than
>>>>>> 29,000 Jews.
>>>>
>>>>>> Charlotte Knobloch, president of the Central Council of Jews in
>>>>>> Germany, said the arrival of 89-year-old John Demjanjuk from the
>>>>>> United States sent a message to other World War II-era criminals.
>>>>
>>>>>> "All the living Nazi war criminals should know that there can be
>>>>>> no mercy for them, regardless of their age," she said in a
>>>>>> statement.
>>>>
>>>>>> "They must be held accountable for their inhumane actions.
>>>>>> Because there is no statute of limitations for crimes against
>>>>>> humanity."
>>>>
>>>>> Israel should be held accountable for it's actions against the
>>>>> Palestinians. Where does Knobloch stand on this issue?
>>>>> Will the trial of Demjanjuk be open and free and held over the
>>>>> internet?
>>>>> Where are the proscecutors concerning Ike's death camps?
>>>>
>>>> Since Ike had no "death camps," your question is moot.
>>
>>> Of course you've read 'Other Losses.'  Have you read 'After the
>>
>> I have indeed, and, while it contains some valuable data about
>> prisoner
>> abuse, Baque's conclusions, based upon flawed data, were nonsense.
>
>Explain how the data used by Baque were flawed, mcFey. On whose say so were 
>these data flawed?
>
>>
>>> Reich'?  What do you call 10K men put behind barbed wire with no
>>> shelter?  A proper POW camp?  Why were Red Cross supplies burned in
>>> full view of those POW's still cognizant enough to see what it was
>>> 'they' were burning?  Why oh why was the prisoner's designation
>>> changed to DEF?
>>
>> Thank you for admitting there were no death camps. Nice of you to come
>> clean for a change.
>
>Where does he admit anything like it, mcFey?
>
>This is a classic example of how you turds generate a lie from which you 
>then create "fact".
>
>
Mcfey is a bloody arsehole and bigot.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed May 13 14:19:06 EDT 2009
Article: 2019724 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: jew knobloch welcomes demjanjuk's deportation
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Tue, 12 May 2009 16:49:04 GMT, "Truthseeker" 
wrote:

>Ich glaube du hast recht aber beide sind beim arschlecken wenn es sich um 
>denn Holocaust geht.

Da hast du Recht.

>Kurt Knoll.
>"Heinrich"  wrote in message 
>news:76tltqF1ek3tsU1@mid.individual.net...
>>
>> "Truthseeker"  schreef in bericht 
>> news:KihOl.27784$PH1.17129@edtnps82...
>>> How naive could the Germans be when they elected a jewees as president. 
>>> Knoblauch is for Israel and not the German people. No wonder the Germans 
>>> can look forward to get screwed even more.
>>> Kurt Knoll.
>>>
>> knobloch is head of the jews in germany and is not the president of 
>> germany, kurt 
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed May 13 14:19:06 EDT 2009
Article: 2019725 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: jew knobloch welcomes demjanjuk's deportation
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Wed, 13 May 2009 08:34:29 +1000, "B. Cramer"
 wrote:

>Kenneth McVay OBC wrote:
>> In article ,
>> The hapless Intellectual Giant of Holocaust Revisionism,
>> Kurt Knoll, reigning Village Idiot of Kitimat  and Laughing
>> Stock of UseNet, fluffed his Chicken Yellow Hitler Jugend
>> Tutu with the "keiner da" Cross and  wrote:
>>
>>> How naive could the Germans be when they elected a jewees as
>>> president.
>>
>> The Germans did not elect a Jew as President, you moron.
>
>Merkelstein is about yid controlled as one could become, faigelah.
>
>Yids say "jump", Merkelstein asks "How high, and here's some money to go 
>with it."
>
Merkel ist eine Fotze.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed May 13 14:19:55 EDT 2009
Article: 2496564 of soc.culture.usa
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.usa
Subject: Re: Unions are unconstitutional...
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Mon, 11 May 2009 11:11:12 -0400, WangoTango
 wrote:

>In article , 
>zeppp@finestplanet.com says...
>> On Fri, 8 May 2009 10:48:33 -0400, WangoTango
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> >In article , 
>> >chine.bleu@yahoo.com says...
>> >> In article ,
>> >>  WangoTango  wrote:
>> >> 
>> >> > In article , 
>> >> > chine.bleu@yahoo.com says...
>> >> > > In article ,
>> >> > >  WangoTango  wrote:
>> >> > > 
>> >> > > > They are expected to know what their requirements are when they walk in 
>> >> > > > and present them to the prospective employer.  In other words they 
>> >> > > > negotiate their own deal just like most people do all the time.  Just 
>> >> > > > like I have done on EVERY job I have ever taken since I was 15 years 
>> >> > > > old.
>> >> > > > What is so difficult about that?
>> >> > > 
>> >> > > Some people choose to be different from you.
>> >> > 
>> >> > Yep, but that is THEIR choice.
>> >> > Unions attempt to remove that choice, or have you missed the point here?
>> >> 
>> >> Everyone in this game attempts to restrict choices to their favour.
>> >> 
>> >> 
>> >Yep, no skill to low skill people like unions because it gives them a 
>> >prefab employment opportunity.
>> >People that have a real skill to offer know that THEY are best suited to 
>> >market that skill.
>> 
>> Here's comes the class warfare.  Never fails
>> 
>> Only the elite deserve a decent wage.
>Not what I said.
>
>> >
>> >At the end of the day, unions are in business to stay in business and 
>> >the workers getting some kind of 'deal' is secondary.
>> 
>> So why do union employees get much better wages and benefits?
>Around here, they don't.
>
>> 
>> >
>> >In a free society each should be allowed to make that choice as they see 
>> >fit and unions do not want workers to have that option.
>> >
>> If the workers elect to be in a union, you need to respect that.
>
>Yep, and as a business owner, I can fire their asses and they should 
>respect that.
>
You only have a business because of the support of the surrounding
community in the form of police and fire protection, roads, etc. It is
your employees who produce whatever wealth is produced by your
business. Alone, you could do piss-all.

No community needs your kind of "business man" anymore than they need
the drug cartels or the Mafia. Perhaps your assets should be
confiscated and turned over to more responsible people?


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed May 13 14:19:56 EDT 2009
Article: 2496565 of soc.culture.usa
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.usa
Subject: Re: Unions are unconstitutional...
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
Message-ID: 
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On Mon, 11 May 2009 11:09:11 -0400, WangoTango
 wrote:

>In article , 
>zeppp@finestplanet.com says...
>> On Fri, 8 May 2009 10:51:03 -0400, WangoTango
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> >In article <7qn605hrgvh2rapf2k0hr2udflbhmut649@4ax.com>, 
>> >zeppp@finestplanet.com says...
>> >> On Thu, 7 May 2009 17:03:52 -0400, WangoTango
>> >>  wrote:
>> >> 
>> >> >In article , 
>> >> >chine.bleu@yahoo.com says...
>> >> >> In article ,
>> >> >>  WangoTango  wrote:
>> >> >> 
>> >> >> > They are expected to know what their requirements are when they walk in 
>> >> >> > and present them to the prospective employer.  In other words they 
>> >> >> > negotiate their own deal just like most people do all the time.  Just 
>> >> >> > like I have done on EVERY job I have ever taken since I was 15 years 
>> >> >> > old.
>> >> >> > What is so difficult about that?
>> >> >> 
>> >> >> Some people choose to be different from you.
>> >> >
>> >> >Yep, but that is THEIR choice.
>> >> >Unions attempt to remove that choice, or have you missed the point here?
>> >> 
>> >> Considering that your point is utter bullshit to begin with, it's easy
>> >> to miss.
>> >> 
>> >Really?
>> >Shows how little life experience you have.
>> 
>> I was a shop steward for ten years, chuckles.  Why don't you tell us
>> about YOUR experience?
>> 
>Ah, I thought I smelled a union butt boy.
>I was just hoping you were just a misguided youth.

You don't believe in workers' rights, and I don't believe in
exploiters' rights.

The old French Jacobins had the right solution to exploiters.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed May 13 14:19:56 EDT 2009
Article: 2496575 of soc.culture.usa
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.usa
Subject: Re: Unions are unconstitutional...
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Mon, 11 May 2009 12:23:40 -0700 (PDT),
TedKennedyMurderedHisPregnantMistress.dwpj65@spamgourmet.com wrote:

>On May 11, 3:05 pm, "4976 Dead, 109 since 1/20/09"
> wrote:
>> On Mon, 11 May 2009 14:41:47 -0400, WangoTango
>>
>>
>>
>>  wrote:
>> >In article ,
>> >ze...@finestplanet.com says...
>> >> On Mon, 11 May 2009 11:11:12 -0400, WangoTango
>> >>  wrote:
>>
>> >> >In article ,
>> >> >ze...@finestplanet.com says...
>> >> >> On Fri, 8 May 2009 10:48:33 -0400, WangoTango
>> >> >>  wrote:
>>
>> >> >> >In article ,
>> >> >> >chine.b...@yahoo.com says...
>> >> >> >> In article ,
>> >> >> >>  WangoTango  wrote:
>>
>> >> >> >> > In article ,
>> >> >> >> > chine.b...@yahoo.com says...
>> >> >> >> > > In article ,
>> >> >> >> > >  WangoTango  wrote:
>>
>> >> >> >> > > > They are expected to know what their requirements are when they walk in
>> >> >> >> > > > and present them to the prospective employer.  In other words they
>> >> >> >> > > > negotiate their own deal just like most people do all the time.  Just
>> >> >> >> > > > like I have done on EVERY job I have ever taken since I was 15 years
>> >> >> >> > > > old.
>> >> >> >> > > > What is so difficult about that?
>>
>> >> >> >> > > Some people choose to be different from you.
>>
>> >> >> >> > Yep, but that is THEIR choice.
>> >> >> >> > Unions attempt to remove that choice, or have you missed the point here?
>>
>> >> >> >> Everyone in this game attempts to restrict choices to their favour.
>>
>> >> >> >Yep, no skill to low skill people like unions because it gives them a
>> >> >> >prefab employment opportunity.
>> >> >> >People that have a real skill to offer know that THEY are best suited to
>> >> >> >market that skill.
>>
>> >> >> Here's comes the class warfare.  Never fails
>>
>> >> >> Only the elite deserve a decent wage.
>> >> >Not what I said.
>>
>> >> Just what you meant.
>> >If that's what makes you feel better.
>>
>> >> >> >At the end of the day, unions are in business to stay in business and
>> >> >> >the workers getting some kind of 'deal' is secondary.
>>
>> >> >> So why do union employees get much better wages and benefits?
>> >> >Around here, they don't.
>>
>> >> Oh, I imagine any place you run is a real shit hole.
>> >A bit short on imagination, I guess.
>>
>> >> >> >In a free society each should be allowed to make that choice as they see
>> >> >> >fit and unions do not want workers to have that option.
>>
>> >> >> If the workers elect to be in a union, you need to respect that.
>>
>> >> >Yep, and as a business owner, I can fire their asses and they should
>> >> >respect that.
>>
>> >> Not if you signed an agreement, you don't.
>>
>> >Well, that's true, a contract is a contract, if entered into freely by
>> >the parties involved, but that's not what you, and your ilk, want.  You
>> >want to force yourselves and your demands upon a company and the
>> >workers.  You have so much as admitted that in other posts.
>>
>> Oh, cry me a river, bubbles.  All I'm proposing is leveling the
>> playing field.  You types run around with a totally spurious sense
>> that you are ENTITLED to treat labor as overhead, rather than as an
>> iingregal asset in your business, and that you have the right to
>> determine wages as you see fit.
>>
>> In a consumer society, that's suicidal.  That's your own customer base
>> you're undermining.
>
>Damned, just when I think you couldn't get any dumber, you go and
>prove me wrong.
>
>It's called "free market."

There is no such thing. The market, be it for labour or other things,
is manipulated by a small clique of money people for their own narrow
advantage.

> Employees who don't like their employment
>conditions are free to seek employment elsewhere.

In practice, that is not usually possible.

> Banding together

Wake up there guy, why the hell do you think people have banded
together in tribes and countries all these millennia? Banding together
provides some protection against predators, be they animal or human.

>and
>threatening to shut down a business because employees are unhappy with
>their pay rates is more along the lines of communism than capitalism,

LOL, you probably cried when you heard that slavery has been
abolished.



>which explains why the big three are having a helluva lot more
>difficulties than those who run their operations free of unionized
>retards like the U.A.W.
>
>> >If you look at the numbers, companies that have been under the yoke of
>> >union tyranny fare much worse in the market than those that let the
>> >workers succeed or fail on their own merit.  
>>
>> >31 years in the work force with 16 of those as a business owner and you
>> >union dupes are still the same.  Grow up, its' the 21st century.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed May 13 14:19:56 EDT 2009
Article: 2496577 of soc.culture.usa
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.usa
Subject: Re: Unions are unconstitutional...
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
Message-ID: <5cri05h8rbo076rrgbv337c73jt0gk1t1l@4ax.com>
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On Mon, 11 May 2009 13:42:35 -0700, "Where's all the China Blue Food?"
 wrote:

>In article <50727e55-a300-402b-aa63-b1db4780766a@t10g2000vbg.googlegroups.com>,
> TedKennedyMurderedHisPregnantMistress.dwpj65@spamgourmet.com wrote:
>
>> It's called "free market." Employees who don't like their employment
>> conditions are free to seek employment elsewhere. Banding together and
>
>Speaking of unintended consequences... Young people coming into work the last 
>decade had watched their parents get treated like shit for being loyal to their 
>company. Youngers are coming into work with no loyalty to their business: the 
>moment they see a better job, they jump, only taking care of themselves.

Given the type of predatory companies that seem to abound in the USA,
that is a quite reasonable and logical response.

>
>One of the realities is that people can't come into a new job and be productive 
>from minute one. Even working in a McDonalds takes training. Some jobs take 
>months before you got a fully productive employee; the employer has to eat that 
>the cost of labour. In the past employees were loyal enough that the employer 
>recouped the training costs; now with the youngers jumping as quick as they can, 
>employers are losing money. And they have no alternative because all the new 
>employees have the same lack of loyalty that businesses showed to their parents.
>
>> threatening to shut down a business because employees are unhappy with
>> their pay rates is more along the lines of communism than capitalism,
>
>Are you saying a business has a right to demand a supplier deliver at the price 
>the business wants to pay instead of what the supplier wants to receive? Sounds 
>to me like you got a problem with the free market.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed May 13 14:19:57 EDT 2009
Article: 2496578 of soc.culture.usa
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.usa
Subject: Re: Unions are unconstitutional...
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Mon, 11 May 2009 17:32:03 -0400, WangoTango
 wrote:

>In article , 
>zeppp@finestplanet.com says...
>> On Mon, 11 May 2009 14:41:47 -0400, WangoTango
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> >In article , 
>> >zeppp@finestplanet.com says...
>> >> On Mon, 11 May 2009 11:11:12 -0400, WangoTango
>> >>  wrote:
>> >> 
>> >> >In article , 
>> >> >zeppp@finestplanet.com says...
>> >> >> On Fri, 8 May 2009 10:48:33 -0400, WangoTango
>> >> >>  wrote:
>> >> >> 
>> >> >> >In article , 
>> >> >> >chine.bleu@yahoo.com says...
>> >> >> >> In article ,
>> >> >> >>  WangoTango  wrote:
>> >> >> >> 
>> >> >> >> > In article , 
>> >> >> >> > chine.bleu@yahoo.com says...
>> >> >> >> > > In article ,
>> >> >> >> > >  WangoTango  wrote:
>> >> >> >> > > 
>> >> >> >> > > > They are expected to know what their requirements are when they walk in 
>> >> >> >> > > > and present them to the prospective employer.  In other words they 
>> >> >> >> > > > negotiate their own deal just like most people do all the time.  Just 
>> >> >> >> > > > like I have done on EVERY job I have ever taken since I was 15 years 
>> >> >> >> > > > old.
>> >> >> >> > > > What is so difficult about that?
>> >> >> >> > > 
>> >> >> >> > > Some people choose to be different from you.
>> >> >> >> > 
>> >> >> >> > Yep, but that is THEIR choice.
>> >> >> >> > Unions attempt to remove that choice, or have you missed the point here?
>> >> >> >> 
>> >> >> >> Everyone in this game attempts to restrict choices to their favour.
>> >> >> >> 
>> >> >> >> 
>> >> >> >Yep, no skill to low skill people like unions because it gives them a 
>> >> >> >prefab employment opportunity.
>> >> >> >People that have a real skill to offer know that THEY are best suited to 
>> >> >> >market that skill.
>> >> >> 
>> >> >> Here's comes the class warfare.  Never fails
>> >> >> 
>> >> >> Only the elite deserve a decent wage.
>> >> >Not what I said.
>> >> 
>> >> Just what you meant.
>> >If that's what makes you feel better.
>> >
>> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >At the end of the day, unions are in business to stay in business and 
>> >> >> >the workers getting some kind of 'deal' is secondary.
>> >> >> 
>> >> >> So why do union employees get much better wages and benefits?
>> >> >Around here, they don't.
>> >> 
>> >> Oh, I imagine any place you run is a real shit hole.
>> >A bit short on imagination, I guess.
>> >
>> >> >
>> >> >> 
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >In a free society each should be allowed to make that choice as they see 
>> >> >> >fit and unions do not want workers to have that option.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> If the workers elect to be in a union, you need to respect that.
>> >> >
>> >> >Yep, and as a business owner, I can fire their asses and they should 
>> >> >respect that.
>> >> 
>> >> Not if you signed an agreement, you don't.
>> >
>> >Well, that's true, a contract is a contract, if entered into freely by 
>> >the parties involved, but that's not what you, and your ilk, want.  You 
>> >want to force yourselves and your demands upon a company and the 
>> >workers.  You have so much as admitted that in other posts. 
>> 
>> Oh, cry me a river, bubbles.  All I'm proposing is leveling the
>> playing field.  You types run around with a totally spurious sense
>> that you are ENTITLED to treat labor as overhead, rather than as an
>> iingregal asset in your business, and that you have the right to
>> determine wages as you see fit.
>Not 'my' types, I pay well above scale and provide full benefits, but I 
>expect to get results commensurate to that type of outlay.  I don't need 
>a union telling me what I can and can not do in my own business, and if 
>any of my workers are not sharp enough to handle negotiating their own 
>wages then they aren't the kind of person I want working here.

If it were up to people like you, children would still work in the
mines and working conditions would still be in the patterns of 1650
where workers died by the thousand due to unsafe and unhealthy working
conditions, all so that a handful of social parasites could afford
large houses, yachts, and other such frills on the backs and blood of
others.





>  You 
>assume because I am not a union butt boy like you that I must be anti-
>worker and that just isn't the case.  You have built this little fantasy 
>world around your union religion and no amount of reality is going to 
>shake it.
>
>> 
>> In a consumer society, that's suicidal.  That's your own customer base
>> you're undermining.
>Once again, you assume too much.
>You know NOTHING about my business.
>
>> >
>> >If you look at the numbers, companies that have been under the yoke of 
>> >union tyranny fare much worse in the market than those that let the 
>> >workers succeed or fail on their own merit.  
>> >
>> >31 years in the work force with 16 of those as a business owner and you 
>> >union dupes are still the same.  Grow up, its' the 21st century.
>> 
>And the above is still the truth.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed May 13 14:19:57 EDT 2009
Article: 2496580 of soc.culture.usa
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.usa
Subject: Re: Unions are unconstitutional...
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Tue, 12 May 2009 06:51:32 -0400, Steve
 wrote:

>On Mon, 11 May 2009 12:05:39 -0700, "4976 Dead, 109 since 1/20/09"
> wrote:
>
>> All I'm proposing is leveling the
>>playing field.  You types run around with a totally spurious sense
>>that you are ENTITLED to treat labor as overhead, rather than as an
>>iingregal asset in your business, and that you have the right to
>>determine wages as you see fit.
>
>
>This is funny, actually...    Employers do have the right to determine
>wages as they see fit because its their investment that being but at
>risk in the marketplace.  

They do not have that right, which is why the state legislates minimum
wage laws to curb the insatiable greed of the parasite class.

>
>Now some employers have foolishly bargained away that right by caving
>in to unions' demands, but all we have to do is look at the American
>car companies to see how that has hurt them as well as the
>employees...   not to mention the country.

The American car companies did not die due to unions. They died
because they insisted on building stuff that could not be sold
anywhere but the USA, where gas was cheap enough to support wasteful,
inefficient, and outmoded gas-guzzlers. GM, Ford, and Chrysler were in
the business of building automotive dinosaurs. All three companies
suffered from incompetent management, not from union problems.

>Nowdays, the best way to overcome the ridiculous demands that unions
>and government regulations have put on businesses is to outsource. 
>
>Outsourcing not only eliminates all the potential union nonsense, it
>eliminates  ***ALL** the garbage that goes along with hiring and
>firing people.  No more Social Security nonsense, no more employment
>records, no more discrimination threats.... 

Your idea of democracy is clearly "freedom to exploit" by the parasite
class. Nobody can really "own" anything. Ownership means having
exclusive use of something, but that only works if the rest of the
people permit you exclusive use. The moment that the rest of the
population no longer recognizes your privilege of exclusive use, it is
lost. Personally, I figure that if the parasite class abuses its
privileges, then those privileges should be forfeit.
  
>
>....and if you outsource laborers that comes to your location to work
>as I did a few years ago, you can pick and choose the ones you want
>and eliminate the ones you don't want with no hassles..  You just tell
>the contractor to stop sending Joe Blow, or in this case, Bryan
>Jamieson.  
>
> It even eliminates much of the contractor's hassles involved in
>firing those people since he can tell the undesirable laborer that the
>client is the one that turns him/her away.  If the contractor's
>clients refuse a particular individual, the contractor has all he
>needs to fire that individual pretty much hassle free.

The concept of "company unions" is nonsensical. Unions need to be
industry-wide to weed out the exploiters among the parasite class. All
companies operating in a specific industry should be subject to the
same union, rather than having little unions that operate within a
specific company. There would be few strikes, since strikes would not
target a specific firm, but would shut down the whole industry. This
would put enormous pressure on the exploitive minority within an
industry to either conform to the industry norms, or go out of
business.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed May 13 14:19:58 EDT 2009
Article: 2496583 of soc.culture.usa
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.usa
Subject: Re: Unions are unconstitutional...
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Mon, 11 May 2009 11:52:26 -0700 (PDT),
TedKennedyMurderedHisPregnantMistress.dwpj65@spamgourmet.com wrote:

>On May 11, 2:21 pm, "4976 Dead, 109 since 1/20/09"
> wrote:
>> On Mon, 11 May 2009 11:11:12 -0400, WangoTango
>>
>>
>>
>>  wrote:
>> >In article ,
>> >ze...@finestplanet.com says...
>> >> On Fri, 8 May 2009 10:48:33 -0400, WangoTango
>> >>  wrote:
>>
>> >> >In article ,
>> >> >chine.b...@yahoo.com says...
>> >> >> In article ,
>> >> >>  WangoTango  wrote:
>>
>> >> >> > In article ,
>> >> >> > chine.b...@yahoo.com says...
>> >> >> > > In article ,
>> >> >> > >  WangoTango  wrote:
>>
>> >> >> > > > They are expected to know what their requirements are when they walk in
>> >> >> > > > and present them to the prospective employer.  In other words they
>> >> >> > > > negotiate their own deal just like most people do all the time.  Just
>> >> >> > > > like I have done on EVERY job I have ever taken since I was 15 years
>> >> >> > > > old.
>> >> >> > > > What is so difficult about that?
>>
>> >> >> > > Some people choose to be different from you.
>>
>> >> >> > Yep, but that is THEIR choice.
>> >> >> > Unions attempt to remove that choice, or have you missed the point here?
>>
>> >> >> Everyone in this game attempts to restrict choices to their favour.
>>
>> >> >Yep, no skill to low skill people like unions because it gives them a
>> >> >prefab employment opportunity.
>> >> >People that have a real skill to offer know that THEY are best suited to
>> >> >market that skill.
>>
>> >> Here's comes the class warfare.  Never fails
>>
>> >> Only the elite deserve a decent wage.
>> >Not what I said.
>>
>> Just what you meant.
>>
>>
>>
>> >> >At the end of the day, unions are in business to stay in business and
>> >> >the workers getting some kind of 'deal' is secondary.
>>
>> >> So why do union employees get much better wages and benefits?
>> >Around here, they don't.
>>
>> Oh, I imagine any place you run is a real shit hole.
>>
>>
>>
>> >> >In a free society each should be allowed to make that choice as they see
>> >> >fit and unions do not want workers to have that option.
>>
>> >> If the workers elect to be in a union, you need to respect that.
>>
>> >Yep, and as a business owner, I can fire their asses and they should
>> >respect that.
>>
>> Not if you signed an agreement, you don't.
>
>What kind of retarded business operator would sign an agreement with a
>union?
>
>Better question: Of what benefit does a union provide a company, shit
>for brains?
>
The company is irrelevant. Society as a whole is relevant. The proper
question is "What benefit is this company to the USA and its people?"
If the answer is "nothing", then the company should be closed.

People in general have rights, not just the parasite class.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed May 13 14:19:58 EDT 2009
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
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Subject: Re: Unions are unconstitutional...
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On Mon, 11 May 2009 14:00:58 -0700 (PDT),
TedKennedyMurderedHisPregnantMistress.dwpj65@spamgourmet.com wrote:

>On May 11, 4:32 pm, "Where's all the China Blue Food?"
> wrote:
>> In article <672efd4a-a571-4abb-8f2f-20291535b...@r34g2000vba.googlegroups.com>,
>>
>>  TedKennedyMurderedHisPregnantMistress.dwp...@spamgourmet.com wrote:
>> > What kind of retarded business operator would sign an agreement with a
>> > union?
>>
>> I don't see why they would mind. If they're paying good salaries and benefits
>> already, if the workers are treated with fairness and respect, I can't see why a
>> union would be stirring trouble that doesn't exist. I've never been in a union
>> because the companies I worked for treated the workers too good to make a union
>> worthwhile. They had to or their competitors would eat them up.
>>
>> I don't know: maybe the businesses you are referring to treat their workers like
>> disposable work units instead of human beings. That might raise some antipathy
>> among workers.
>
>My only direct experience with a union comes through an employer, who
>had been contracted to engineer and fabricate some equipment in a
>U.A.W. staffed plant.
>
>The workers I saw were certainly not being mistreated.

You can thank a union for that, or they undoubtedly still would be
mistreated.




> To the best of
>my knowledge, they spent half their shift in the break room. When they
>weren't in the break room, they were sitting out on the floor near one
>of several desks, with their feets propped upon those desks.
>Occasionally (perhaps once every two hours or so) they would spend
>about 15 minutes moving racks of parts from one cell to another, then
>it was back to "break" mode.
>
>These types of activities, had I engaged in them with any of my
>employers, would have prompted an extremely stern warning, if not an
>outright termination. Yet these U.A.W. guys think it's "business as
>usual." Only an idiot would think the effort those guys were putting
>in was worth the money they were making; heck, restaurant labor works
>much harder than those U.A.W. guys, and they get, what, a fifth of the
>pay? That's certainly not a free market condition, and it's because
>the unions have had their say.
>
>An unemployed union member is a good union member, IMO.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed May 13 14:19:58 EDT 2009
Article: 2496586 of soc.culture.usa
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.usa
Subject: Re: Unions are unconstitutional...
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Mon, 11 May 2009 16:59:01 -0400, B1ackwater  wrote:

>No, no, no ......
>
>Unions WILL be unconstitutional ... the minute they
>cease serving Obamas interests. 

It is the Busheviks that were/are opposed to rights for workers.

In typical "newspeak", Right-to-Work states are states in which
workers essentially have no rights. Only the parasite class has
rights.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed May 13 14:19:59 EDT 2009
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
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Subject: Re: Unions are unconstitutional...
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Tue, 12 May 2009 08:32:22 -0700 (PDT),
TedKennedyMurderedHisPregnantMistress.dwpj65@spamgourmet.com wrote:

>On May 12, 8:37 am, Johannes von Ebersdorf 
>wrote:
>> On Mon, 11 May 2009 12:23:40 -0700 (PDT),
>>
>>
>>
>> TedKennedyMurderedHisPregnantMistress.dwp...@spamgourmet.com wrote:
>> >On May 11, 3:05 pm, "4976 Dead, 109 since 1/20/09"
>> > wrote:
>> >> On Mon, 11 May 2009 14:41:47 -0400, WangoTango
>>
>> >>  wrote:
>> >> >In article ,
>> >> >ze...@finestplanet.com says...
>> >> >> On Mon, 11 May 2009 11:11:12 -0400, WangoTango
>> >> >>  wrote:
>>
>> >> >> >In article ,
>> >> >> >ze...@finestplanet.com says...
>> >> >> >> On Fri, 8 May 2009 10:48:33 -0400, WangoTango
>> >> >> >>  wrote:
>>
>> >> >> >> >In article ,
>> >> >> >> >chine.b...@yahoo.com says...
>> >> >> >> >> In article ,
>> >> >> >> >>  WangoTango  wrote:
>>
>> >> >> >> >> > In article ,
>> >> >> >> >> > chine.b...@yahoo.com says...
>> >> >> >> >> > > In article ,
>> >> >> >> >> > >  WangoTango  wrote:
>>
>> >> >> >> >> > > > They are expected to know what their requirements are when they walk in
>> >> >> >> >> > > > and present them to the prospective employer.  In other words they
>> >> >> >> >> > > > negotiate their own deal just like most people do all the time.  Just
>> >> >> >> >> > > > like I have done on EVERY job I have ever taken since I was 15 years
>> >> >> >> >> > > > old.
>> >> >> >> >> > > > What is so difficult about that?
>>
>> >> >> >> >> > > Some people choose to be different from you.
>>
>> >> >> >> >> > Yep, but that is THEIR choice.
>> >> >> >> >> > Unions attempt to remove that choice, or have you missed the point here?
>>
>> >> >> >> >> Everyone in this game attempts to restrict choices to their favour.
>>
>> >> >> >> >Yep, no skill to low skill people like unions because it gives them a
>> >> >> >> >prefab employment opportunity.
>> >> >> >> >People that have a real skill to offer know that THEY are best suited to
>> >> >> >> >market that skill.
>>
>> >> >> >> Here's comes the class warfare.  Never fails
>>
>> >> >> >> Only the elite deserve a decent wage.
>> >> >> >Not what I said.
>>
>> >> >> Just what you meant.
>> >> >If that's what makes you feel better.
>>
>> >> >> >> >At the end of the day, unions are in business to stay in business and
>> >> >> >> >the workers getting some kind of 'deal' is secondary.
>>
>> >> >> >> So why do union employees get much better wages and benefits?
>> >> >> >Around here, they don't.
>>
>> >> >> Oh, I imagine any place you run is a real shit hole.
>> >> >A bit short on imagination, I guess.
>>
>> >> >> >> >In a free society each should be allowed to make that choice as they see
>> >> >> >> >fit and unions do not want workers to have that option.
>>
>> >> >> >> If the workers elect to be in a union, you need to respect that.
>>
>> >> >> >Yep, and as a business owner, I can fire their asses and they should
>> >> >> >respect that.
>>
>> >> >> Not if you signed an agreement, you don't.
>>
>> >> >Well, that's true, a contract is a contract, if entered into freely by
>> >> >the parties involved, but that's not what you, and your ilk, want.  You
>> >> >want to force yourselves and your demands upon a company and the
>> >> >workers.  You have so much as admitted that in other posts.
>>
>> >> Oh, cry me a river, bubbles.  All I'm proposing is leveling the
>> >> playing field.  You types run around with a totally spurious sense
>> >> that you are ENTITLED to treat labor as overhead, rather than as an
>> >> iingregal asset in your business, and that you have the right to
>> >> determine wages as you see fit.
>>
>> >> In a consumer society, that's suicidal.  That's your own customer base
>> >> you're undermining.
>>
>> >Damned, just when I think you couldn't get any dumber, you go and
>> >prove me wrong.
>>
>> >It's called "free market."
>>
>> There is no such thing. The market, be it for labour or other things,
>> is manipulated by a small clique of money people for their own narrow
>> advantage.
>
>LMAO. So a small clique of people are capable of preventing me from
>switching employers if my work conditions become to heinous for to
>deal with? Thanks, I needed a laugh!
>
>> > Employees who don't like their employment
>> >conditions are free to seek employment elsewhere.
>>
>> In practice, that is not usually possible.
>>
>> > Banding together
>>
>> Wake up there guy, why the hell do you think people have banded
>> together in tribes and countries all these millennia? Banding together
>> provides some protection against predators, be they animal or human.
>
>Provision of a job is more like a service than it is predation,
>genius. Did your parents have any kids that lived?
>
>> >and
>> >threatening to shut down a business because employees are unhappy with
>> >their pay rates is more along the lines of communism than capitalism,
>>
>> LOL, you probably cried when you heard that slavery has been
>> abolished.
>
>Not in the least; there's a difference between slavery and employment,

In the backward USA there really isn't that much difference. As a
matter of fact, wage slaves are cheaper than bought slaves.



>but I can see you struggle with that and many other concepts.
>
>> >which explains why the big three are having a helluva lot more
>> >difficulties than those who run their operations free of unionized
>> >retards like the U.A.W.
>>
>> >> >If you look at the numbers, companies that have been under the yoke of
>> >> >union tyranny fare much worse in the market than those that let the
>> >> >workers succeed or fail on their own merit.  
>>
>> >> >31 years in the work force with 16 of those as a business owner and you
>> >> >union dupes are still the same.  Grow up, its' the 21st century.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed May 13 14:19:59 EDT 2009
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
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Subject: Re: Unions are unconstitutional...
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On Wed, 13 May 2009 06:09:44 -0400, Steve
 wrote:

>On Tue, 12 May 2009 19:09:48 -0700, "Where's all the China Blue Food?"
> wrote:
>
>>In article ,
>> Steve  wrote:
>>
>>> >I find it ludicrous that you are saying that CEOs making millions a
>>> >year for sitting on their asses have sole right to decide that workers
>>> >are "worth" only what they say they are.
>>> 
>>> What's ludicrous is dumbshit leftists thinking they should decide
>>> anything!   Dumbshit losers have invested nothing... NOTHING ...  in
>>> the company.  The only decision they are allowed is whether to
>>> continue working or quit.
>>
>>Most managers have invested nothing either.
>
>However, they have been chosen by and are agents of the people who
>have invested....   

The incompetents who managed American car companies are prime
examples.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed May 13 14:20:00 EDT 2009
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
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Subject: Re: Unions are unconstitutional...
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On Tue, 12 May 2009 13:28:41 -0700 (PDT),
TedKennedyMurderedHisPregnantMistress.dwpj65@spamgourmet.com wrote:

>On May 12, 4:02 pm, "Where's all the China Blue Food?"
> wrote:
>> In article <8bf41c63-d8da-45a2-8dfe-c48b5c5ea...@h23g2000vbc.googlegroups.com>,
>>
>>
>>
>>  TedKennedyMurderedHisPregnantMistress.dwp...@spamgourmet.com wrote:
>> > On May 12, 9:57 am, "Where's all the China Blue Food?"
>> >  wrote:
>> > > In article <16ji05tdhd1eacr3c9o826rcp0e36r7...@4ax.com>,
>>
>> > >  Steve  wrote:
>> > > > This is funny, actually...    Employers do have the right to determine
>> > > > wages as they see fit because its their investment that being but at
>> > > > risk in the marketplace.  
>>
>> > > They have the right to offer whatever price they want to their suppliers.
>> > > Whether any supplier agrees is the supplier's right.
>>
>> > > > Outsourcing not only eliminates all the potential union nonsense, it
>> > > > eliminates  ***ALL** the garbage that goes along with hiring and
>> > > > firing people.  No more Social Security nonsense, no more employment
>> > > > records, no more discrimination threats....  
>>
>> > > It also elimenates consumers for your products. In fact, that's what
>> > > happened in
>> > > 2008. And we can see how well that works out for the employers
>>
>> > Doesn't matter, anyway; with Obama's tax increases for the job
>> > creators, I'm imagining he's motivating them to open their facilities
>> > outside of the U.S.
>>
>> Unless they move out of the US and renounce their citizenship, they will still
>> pay their taxes. That sort of takes of the fun out of rapacious greed.
>
>Which, I assume, many will, particularly when labor and operational
>expenses become cheaper in other countries. You can see this mentality
>in the retail space; Wal-Mart is doing so well because their prices
>are typically lower; you don't think people will take their businesses
>elsewhere if it's cheaper? Why would you expect business owners to
>operate differently than consumers?

It was heartwarming to see that Wal-Mart went bankrupt in Germany.
They just couldn't operate in an environment where workers actually
have some rights.

All of Wal-Mart's stores were sold to German competitors at less than
10¢ on the dollar.  :-)


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed May 13 14:20:01 EDT 2009
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
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Subject: Re: Unions are unconstitutional...
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On Tue, 12 May 2009 18:07:55 -0400, Steve
 wrote:

>On Tue, 12 May 2009 10:36:08 -0500, "4976 Dead, 109 since 1/20/09"
> wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 12 May 2009 05:57:56 -0700,
>>TedKennedyMurderedHisPregnantMistress.dwpj65 wrote:
>>
>>> On May 11, 6:24 pm, "4976 Dead, 109 since 1/20/09"
>>>  wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 11 May 2009 13:17:02 -0700 (PDT),
>>>>
>>
>>>> >So, shit for brains, care to explain to use exactly why business OWES
>>>> >people employment?
>>>>
>>>> If they want work done, then they owe employees a decent wage for their
>>>> time.
>>> 
>>> Which is what most employers do, otherwise their employees leave and go
>>> to work for the competition. Unless, of course, you're lazy and
>>> incompetent, which seems to be the type of individuals that support and
>>> join unions.
>>
>>Oh, yes, the competition.  The ones who are pressuring wages down so they 
>>can be competitive with the other guys and still give their execs multi-
>>million dollars bonuses.  
>>
>>Wages have been spiraling down ever since 1978, to the point where a 
>>single-earner household is a rarity these days, and minimum wage in real 
>>dollars is less than half of what it was in 1965.  And the middle and 
>>lower class living standards have dropped even more.
>>> 
>>> BTW, a lazy and incompetent labor force is NOT good for the employer, as
>>> the "big three" are demonstrating.
>>> 
>>The "big three" unionized early last century and became the world's 
>>biggest source of cars for 60 years.  Yes, with unions.  And the curious 
>>fact is that they are being beaten by Toyota, which doesn't have unions, 
>>but which pays their workers an equal wage and offers better benefits.  
>>In Japan itself, the benefits include six weeks paid vacation a year, 
>>plus the 15 or so public holidays, double time for overtime, and Toyota 
>>has no say in health care for the workers or pensions.  
>>
>
>Big difference is that Toyota doesn't pay thousands of laid off
>workers and retired people the same wages they earned when actually
>being productive.

You make it sound as if the pensions people paid for were "gifts" of
GM. They were not, and GM stole from the pension fund. This kind of
thing is only possible in third world countries and apparently the
USA.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed May 13 14:20:01 EDT 2009
Article: 2496927 of soc.culture.usa
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.usa
Subject: Re: Unions are unconstitutional...
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Tue, 12 May 2009 19:38:33 -0400, Steve
 wrote:

>On Tue, 12 May 2009 16:31:33 -0700, "Where's all the China Blue Food?"
> wrote:
>
>>In article ,
>> Steve  wrote:
>>
>>> Big difference is that Toyota doesn't pay thousands of laid off
>>> workers and retired people the same wages they earned when actually
>>> being productive.
>>
>>I guess those companies shouldn't have made that deal to increase productivity. 
>>Then they couldn't have afforded layoffs or have higher profits to waste on 
>>worthless managers.
>
>
>Actually, Ford, GM and Chrysler should have resisted the unions
>demands to pay  laid off workers and retired people the same wages
>they earned when actually being productive.
>
>Doesn't matter to me.  I drive a Toyota 4wd Pickup now.  I doubt I'll
>ever buy a car from the big three American companies again.    I doubt
>I'll ever buy a car from any company that has the UAW..

The problems of incompetent businessmen are not the fault of the UAW.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed May 13 14:20:02 EDT 2009
Article: 2496929 of soc.culture.usa
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.usa
Subject: Re: Unions are unconstitutional...
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
Message-ID: 
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On Tue, 12 May 2009 11:02:12 -0700 (PDT),
TedKennedyMurderedHisPregnantMistress.dwpj65@spamgourmet.com wrote:

>On May 12, 9:03 am, Johannes von Ebersdorf 
>wrote:
>> On Mon, 11 May 2009 16:59:01 -0400, B1ackwater  wrote:
>> >No, no, no ......
>>
>> >Unions WILL be unconstitutional ... the minute they
>> >cease serving Obamas interests.
>>
>> It is the Busheviks that were/are opposed to rights for workers.
>>
>> In typical "newspeak", Right-to-Work states are states in which
>> workers essentially have no rights. Only the parasite class has
>> rights.
>
>ROTFLMAO. "Parasite" class? Exactly WHAT jobs have unions created?

Anything that exists in the USA has been created by employees and
their representatives, not by "owners" or "managers".

Owners now, and in centuries past, have gotten free rides on the backs
of the people they exploit.

>
>I *love* how union proponents tend to believe that their beloved
>unions have had some role in job creation, and as such, has a right to
>dictate the terms of their employment.
>
>"Parasite" class. Too rich. Someone builds a business and starts
>hiring employees; the employees realize that if they organize, they
>can shut down the business unless their terms are met. Those are the
>parasites, genius; people who are unwilling to do their job for their
>pay; they're called "welfare recipients", or in other terms, "union
>members."
>
>But the best part is that the big three automakers, where unions have
>a stranglehold, are having major problems that are merely going to
>strengthen the automakers who aren't unionized. Wonder what all of
>those overpaid undermotivated union hacks will be doing then?
>
>I know one thing's for sure: based on my observation of the "workers"
>in a union shop, I will NEVER again purchase a car assembled in a
>U.A.W. shop. So go ahead, keep on bailin' out the U.A.W. shops,
>because our government doesn't have enough welfare recipients as it
>is.
>
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Mon May 18 14:08:33 EDT 2009
Article: 2020719 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Demjanjuk makes nostalgic pilgrimage to Germany
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Fri, 15 May 2009 15:41:19 -0700 (PDT), "Bent Attorney Esq."
 wrote:

>On May 13, 2:15 am, kmc...@shell.vex.net (Kenneth McVay OBC) wrote:
>> In article <26e3aeef-30cb-40c3-8f28-2d5529c82...@r34g2000vbi.googlegroups.com>,
>> Bent Attorney Esq.  wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >On May 12, 12:40 am, kmc...@shell.vex.net (Kenneth McVay OBC) wrote:
>> >> In article ,
>> >> The hapless Intellectual Giant of Holocaust Revisionism,
>> >> Kurt Knoll, reigning Village Idiot of Kitimat  and Laughing
>> >> Stock of UseNet, fluffed his Chicken Yellow Hitler Jugend
>> >> Tutu with the "keiner da" Cross and  wrote:
>>
>> >> >Here we have seen the power of the holocaust industries in action. Who will
>> >> >they finger next to keep the hollow saga in the limelight.
>>
>> >> Here we see justice, asshole.
>>
>> >Justice?  Where is the justice McVay?  Has he been proven to be
>> >guilty?  Why aren't Israeli war criminals on trial as well?
>> >How about the bombers of the innocent civilians in Dresden?
>>
>> Gee, so much smoke. Let's begin with Demjanjuk, who has been *proven* to
>> have been part of the NAZI death camp machine at Sobibor. JUSTICE is found
>> in his being tried for the alleged crimes.
>>
>> Israeli war criminals, if they exist, have nothing to do with Demjanjuk,
>> so I'm uncertain as to why you brought them up.
>>
>
>Why to show your hypocrisy of course.
>
>> Dresden, of course, was a legitimate military target, so your question is
>> moot.
>
>So all of the collateral damage was an accident?  You're funny.

Not only that, but nothing of military value was destroyed.
Practically no historians accept Dresden as a military target, except
for mental midgets such as mcvay.

>
>>
>> --
>> "We all know it but they will have us believe they have absolutely no
>> influence on governments. Not believing it would be anti emetic."
>> (Kurt Knoll, Kitimat, B.C.'s Leading Revisionist Scholar)
>> The Nizkor Project:                    http://www.nizkor.org/


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Mon May 18 14:08:33 EDT 2009
Article: 2020722 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Beacon is retarded?
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On Sat, 16 May 2009 09:11:38 +1000, "B. Cramer"
 wrote:

>Doc Tony wrote:
>> B. Cramer wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> "Doc Tony"  wrote in message
>>> news:qO6dnQ-fb8iDD5DXnZ2dnUVZ_gmdnZ2d@posted.localnet...
>>>
>>>> B. Cramer wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "Neil Harrington"  wrote in message
>>>>> news:7f2dnR846sIf9ZDXnZ2dnUVZ_rmdnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "B. Cramer"  wrote in message
>>>>>> news:yPOdnQlmKYQrxJDXnZ2dnVY3goidnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Neil Harrington"  wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:W9WdnQlvj7i_0pDXnZ2dnUVZ_tSdnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "B. Cramer"  wrote in message
>>>>>>>> news:HpidnZ020fjdrpDXnZ2dnVY3goSdnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "Neil Harrington"  wrote in message
>>>>>>>>> news:6pOdnSUUvfOvz5HXnZ2dnUVZ_jmdnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "Doc Tony"  wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>> news:csKdnfv1FI-3pZHXnZ2dnUVZ_sudnZ2d@posted.localnet...
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Neil Harrington wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> "B. Cramer"  wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>>>> news:38mdna3i47ksyZbXnZ2dnVY3goydnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Neil Harrington wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Mavisbeacon"  wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> news:b9835$4a0aa2f2$596480f8$10179@news.upc.ie...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Neil Harrington"  wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> news:NLqdndvpBqztTZTXnZ2dnUVZ_q2dnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> [ . . . ]
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I read it and I'm sure you can too.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you could ever show where it is I could but seeing as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you cant we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can treat it like the rock and assume it does not repel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tigers until
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you can show it does.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You have the entire collection of Ben's interesting and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> informative
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> posts available to you right there in front of you.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Reading them will
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> do you a world of good, as well as giving you something
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more useful
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to do with all that time you have on your hands.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> She has no interest in actual debate, Neil. Her only
>>>>>>>>>>>>> interests are in obstructing honest and open debate. She
>>>>>>>>>>>>> achieves this by introducing more and more "rules of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> engagement" as the thread progresses.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> She is also terminally dim.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I have been thinking maybe we should fix her up with Doc
>>>>>>>>>>>> Tony. That might be a match made in heaven. Well, scratch
>>>>>>>>>>>> heaven and make that a state hospital admission ward.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> We once had a couple of old geezers, nice old fellows, who
>>>>>>>>>>>> got along famously and would spend all day walking around
>>>>>>>>>>>> the ward chattering away to each other. If you listened to
>>>>>>>>>>>> their conversation though, it was obvious that each of them
>>>>>>>>>>>> was talking about something entirely different from what
>>>>>>>>>>>> the other was talking about. This did not in any way
>>>>>>>>>>>> interfere with their mutual enjoyment of the conversation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> See what I mean? I think a Mavis - Doc Tony match-up would
>>>>>>>>>>>> work beautifully.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Readers! Get this 3rd party whine as Neil "Rewriteman®"
>>>>>>>>>>> Harrington
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> [ . . . ]
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Just wanted to see if your obsession with me was still at
>>>>>>>>>> fever pitch, Tony.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> But apart from that, I do think you and Mavis would make a
>>>>>>>>>> lovely pair, and enjoy each other very much. You could send
>>>>>>>>>> her odes of your hebephrenic gobbledegook, and she could
>>>>>>>>>> reply with 20,000-word explications of her confused idea of
>>>>>>>>>> the moment, repeated over and over.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Think about it, and you'll see I am right.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'm thinking about it Neil, damn you. My ribs are absolutely
>>>>>>>>> aching.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> :-)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm not going to give up on this, Ben. My goal is to get them
>>>>>>>> together, walking hand in hand off into the sunset. I am
>>>>>>>> confident they will thank me for it in the end.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Oy vey. A mitzvah already.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Exactly. I am in just this one instance taking on the role of a
>>>>>> nice, traditional Yiddish matchmaker.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> A mentsh tracht und Gott lacht ;-)
>>>>> (A person makes plans and God laughs)
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Can you picture the issue if ever they were to breed ;-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> God, no. The mind rebels.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Ahhh! Ben is not only sucked in to a tag-team with Neil
>>>> "Rewriteman®" Harrington's 'wowies' but apparently makes good on
>>>> his boast [by way of the search engines] that he's [Cramer] been
>>>> studying "for almost two years now" [sic -- Cramer] both Hebrew and
>>>> Yiddish via the [transliterated] Yiddish saying up above. Perhaps
>>>> such 'study' helps on those much Cramer ballyhooed both boat and
>>>> air 'business' schleps to the Promised Land. Somehow tho', I see a
>>>> great irony in Ben sitting at the table via the alleged boat schlep
>>>> to Israel and making with the raised glass "L'Chaim!" toast!
>>>
>>>
>>> Huh?
>>
>>
>> What's with the Alex "Muleschlep®" Vangel "Huh?" impression, Ben? You
>> made a big thing about traveling to the 'Promised Land' multiple times
>> by both air and by ship and you quite frequently drop words like
>> 'kvetch' et al, so, what now, you're telling me that the classic
>> "L'Chaim!" and very common Jewish drinking toast [To 'Life' !] escapes
>> you?
>
>Nope. I simply didn't understand a word you were saying. A bit early in the 
>day here to decipher.

Poor Doc is always funny. It takes some real talent to put together
these strings of gobbledegook where your mind struggles to find
meaning in a string of text where there is none. It is classic
theatre-of-the-absurd writing.

>
>>I thought you made like you were the 'world traveler' kind of
>> guy! Hell, even Mencken, and I did his bio, used words like
>> 'meshuggah', et al! Or are you trying to 'distance' yourself from
>> those who you claim you do business with, you know, when you wax
>> Himmler-like and make with or should I say 'differentiate' [!] those
>> "decent/good Jews" [sic]  and those, when you again wax Himmler-like
>> and declare them to be 'hebes' [sic], 'yids' [sic] and 'sheenies'
>> [sic] ? What's the story, Ben?
>
>Still don't know what you're driving at.
>
>>
>>
>> Doc Tony
>> ;-)
>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'll leave it to the readers to rate the 'retort' [!?] that
>>>> Harrington has come up with and which Ben then jumps in and props
>>>> up but the problem comes in that the main issues are never
>>>> addressed or at least alluded to in a satiric way within the
>>>> retort. In other words, Harrington's continued Berging® of my posts
>>>> AND the exposure that the Neil's 'killfile/plonk' gambit was a
>>>> complete crock. In effect, these issues and hence any point
>>>> whatsoever are totally abandoned when in fact duly demonstrated in
>>>> favor of what you see above as Harrington makes with the ol' mental
>>>> ward retained retros and then Ben enters the post and does the
>>>> support thing. Quite an act, yes?  And Ben is so overwhelmed by the
>>>> 'quality' [!] and panache of Harrington's comeback(s) and as
>>>> repeated in other threads and posts, that Ben says his ribs are
>>>> aching! You make the call. Personally, I'm almost inclined to use the < 
>>>> thing and write the
>>>> material myself giving the impression that Neil wrote it if only to
>>>> come up with something better than what Neil feels is doing it for
>>>> him and which Ben apparently agrees and swears to for no doubt
>>>> solidarity reasons. But then too, who else does Ben have if not for
>>>> Harrington? So either Ben goes with it and props up Neil and of
>>>> course vice versa or Ben remains a solo act. Let's see how it goes.
>>>> The best of all would be getting "Papagei®" Ebe and Al "Not
>>>> Personally Involved®" Smith into the thing and then there could be
>>>> some great fun all the way around! But then, let Harrington wallow
>>>> in the limelight with his wowies and let's also see how long Ben is
>>>> willing to play the yea-brayer to such Harrington mused alleged
>>>> panache and wit [!]. Doc Tony
>>>> ;-)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> And then ...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Neil "Rewriteman®" Harrington: [teary now!]: "Ben, I can't tell you
>>>> what your public support means to me! It's a chance to put it to Doc
>>>> Tony once and for all and I have many more ideas besides the 'love
>>>> interest with poster Beacon' [!] approach which is just for
>>>> openers!" Ben "Chameleon®" Cramer: "Ehhh, of course, mate, hahahaha, as 
>>>> I
>>>> said, my ribs are still aching from the, ehhh, uniqueness of it!
>>>> It's so clever [!] that I'm only sorry I didn't think of it first!
>>>> Hahaha." Harrington: [pulls a Ralph Kramden from "The $99,000 Answer" 
>>>> episode
>>>> when Ralph chooses the 'popular songs' category ..] : "Well, I don't
>>>> like to braaaaaaaaag [!], Ben, but I thought it was rather unique
>>>> myself! And I make my point!"
>>>>
>>>> Cramer: "Ohhhh, of course, mate, hahahaha, the point. That should be
>>>> obvious to any reader! Hahahaha. [Ben now musing to himself ...
>>>> 'Whadddddda marooooon!']. Anyway, quid pro quo, mate. Quid pro quo
>>>> as ol' Doc Lecter would say and 'that' should get Doc Tony's
>>>> attention. Hahahaha!"
>>>>
>>>> Harrington: "Who?"
>>>>
>>>> Cramer: "Doc Tony!"
>>>>
>>>> Harrington: "No-no, I 'know' that, who was the other person you
>>>> mentioned, that Doc Lecter. "I never heard of that name' [sic -- in
>>>> re the Doc Fred Töben matter] ."
>>>>
>>>> Cramer: "Lecter! Doc Hannibal Lecter and his "quid pro quo" to
>>>> Clarice Starling."
>>>>
>>>> Harrington: "Who? I don't know who these people are!"
>>>>
>>>> Cramer: "Ehhh, forget it, Neil. Suffice that 'quid pro quo' as I
>>>> mean it anyway is a one for one kind of thing in that I do for you
>>>> and then you get in there and do for me. Deal?"
>>>>
>>>> Harrington: "Of course!"
>>>>
>>>> Cramer: [tries a bit of wit using the flick if only to see what
>>>> happens and if Harrington can connect to same ... Cramer then does
>>>> his best mimic of Lecter's voice .. ]: "I'll help you catch him,
>>>> Neil." [!] Harrington: "What? Ohhh, yeah, sure. Hahahaha. Catch who?"
>>>>
>>>> Cramer: [musing to himself now and his new AR tag-team "partner"]:
>>>> "Oyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy!"
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ;-) 


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Mon May 18 14:08:34 EDT 2009
Article: 2020723 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Beacon is retarded?
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Sat, 16 May 2009 10:00:02 +1000, "B. Cramer"
 wrote:

>Mavisbeacon wrote:
>> "Neil Harrington"  wrote in message
>> news:6padnS5AJc6szJDXnZ2dnUVZ_gudnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>> 
>>> "Mavisbeacon"  wrote in message
>>> news:1b28a$4a0d4e37$596480f8$1581@news.upc.ie...
>>>> 
>>>> "B. Cramer"  wrote in message
>>>> news:RYadnXLc4Nxbp5DXnZ2dnVY3go2dnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>>> 
>>>>> "Mavisbeacon"  wrote in message
>>>>> news:7cd7$4a0d391b$596480f8$13869@news.upc.ie...
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> "B. Cramer"  wrote in message
>>>>>> news:4dSdnVg3OshArZDXnZ2dnVY3go2dnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> "Mavisbeacon"  wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:43744$4a0c608c$596480f8$29954@news.upc.ie...
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Off topic and insane nonsense from beacon snipped.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Please stop doing the above
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> http://www.giganews.com/legal/aup.html
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> If it is determined that you have posted spam through the Giganews
>>>>>> servers, you will be charged a $50 cleanup fee per spam message
>>>>>> that you posted, and your account will be terminated.
>> 
>>>> 
>>>> It IS IMO spam if all you do is repost the original and add a one
>>>> line ... "rest of message snipped"
>>>> But that isnt for ME to decide. It is for giganews.
>>> 
>>> Giganews will decide that (1) it isn't spam, and (2) you are a very
>>> odd person.
>> 
>> They have rules about forging as well.
>
>Huh? Where did that come from?
>
>> I havent bothered to send any complaint o them but Im happy to make a
>> bet with you.
>> Nah scratch that! I cant be bothered and you would probably welsch on
>> it anyway.
>> Nor can I  be botherer with posting Cramer because he fallaciously
>> fails to support his position with evidence.
>>> 
>>> But enough of this diddle daddle.
>> 
>> Yesh right! I wont bother with cramer then. Ploink
>> 
>>> 
>>> Have you noticed that Doc Tony seems to have taken quite an interest
>>> in you?
>> 
>> No I haven't! Have you any evidence to support that claim?
>
>God almighty. You are such a dimbulb, dearie. 
>
Take heart, Ben, she may have actually been serious about killfiling
your posts. One can always hope.  LOL



From ebersdorf@gmail.com Mon May 18 14:08:34 EDT 2009
Article: 2020724 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Beacon is retarded?
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On Sat, 16 May 2009 13:02:29 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
 wrote:

>
>"Neil Harrington"  wrote in message 
>news:l5udnSX8PYVBmZPXnZ2dnUVZ_uidnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>
>> "Mavisbeacon"  wrote in message 
>> news:82eee$4a0df885$596480f8$23545@news.upc.ie...
>>>
>>> "Neil Harrington"  wrote in message 
>>> news:6padnS5AJc6szJDXnZ2dnUVZ_gudnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>>
>>>> "Mavisbeacon"  wrote in message 
>>>> news:1b28a$4a0d4e37$596480f8$1581@news.upc.ie...
>>>>>
>>>>> "B. Cramer"  wrote in message 
>>>>> news:RYadnXLc4Nxbp5DXnZ2dnVY3go2dnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Mavisbeacon"  wrote in message 
>>>>>> news:7cd7$4a0d391b$596480f8$13869@news.upc.ie...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "B. Cramer"  wrote in message 
>>>>>>> news:4dSdnVg3OshArZDXnZ2dnVY3go2dnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Mavisbeacon"  wrote in message 
>>>>>>>> news:43744$4a0c608c$596480f8$29954@news.upc.ie...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Off topic and insane nonsense from beacon snipped.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Please stop doing the above
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.giganews.com/legal/aup.html
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If it is determined that you have posted spam through the Giganews 
>>>>>>> servers, you will be charged a $50 cleanup fee per spam message that 
>>>>>>> you posted, and your account will be terminated.
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> It IS IMO spam if all you do is repost the original and add a one line 
>>>>> ... "rest of message snipped"
>>>>> But that isnt for ME to decide. It is for giganews.
>>>>
>>>> Giganews will decide that (1) it isn't spam, and (2) you are a very odd 
>>>> person.
>>>
>>> They have rules about forging as well.
>>> I havent bothered to send any complaint o them but Im happy to make a bet 
>>> with you.
>>> Nah scratch that! I cant be bothered and you would probably welsch on it 
>>> anyway.
>>> Nor can I  be botherer with posting Cramer because he fallaciously fails 
>>> to support his position with evidence.
>>>>
>>>> But enough of this diddle daddle.
>>>
>>> Yesh right! I wont bother with cramer then. Ploink
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Have you noticed that Doc Tony seems to have taken quite an interest in 
>>>> you?
>>>
>>> No I haven't! Have you any evidence to support that claim?
>>
>> I think his exact words were, "She has made roast meat of my heart!"
>
>Really? Where did he state that?
>
>By the way how do you know if I am female or Jewish?

If you are a guy and your parents perversely named you Mavis, then all
your many problems are clearly explained.

>
>
>> Of course with Tony it is rather hard to tell. It may require reading 
>> between the lines, or with every third letter reversed, or some such 
>> thing.
>
>Dont know the guy. But I am not surprised you express some ideas about 
>occult knowledge.
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Mon May 18 14:08:35 EDT 2009
Article: 2020725 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: To Bent Attorneu Esq.
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On Sat, 16 May 2009 01:28:28 +0200, ZuLu  wrote:

>Toivo Kottarainen escribió:
>> "Toivo Kottarainen"  kirjoitti 
>> viestissä:4a0dc0d8$0$26304$9b536df3@news.fv.fi...
>
>...
>
>>>
>>> Topi
>>>
>> The wittnesses have a very close knowledge of the happenings that was done 
>> without disguise, there was no delay after the crime that was wittnessed but 
>> they but could not tell about it immediately.The crime was  not made in a 
>> personnable manner but with a force of German Militiary company.
>> 
>
>Eyewitnesses have LIED by assuming to "recognize" Demjandjuk on the "Ivan the 
>terrible" role at Treblinka. Those liars sent him to death in Israel, he was saved by 
>chance.

The Israeli police were the ultimate in unprofessional behaviour.
Apparently the original "Ivan the terrible" was bald and the witnesses
were shown photo sheets on which Demjanuk was the only bald person.

It is often hard to recognize people after a ten year absence, let
alone to identify a person you saw momentarily from across a football
field distance seventy years ago.

The eye witnesses come across as the same sort of eye witnesses that
resulted in the death sentences handed out at the Witch Trials of
Salem in the seventeenth century. 

>
>11 eyewitnesses LIED on the Walus case in Chicago. He allegedly "performed duties 
>with the Gestapo in the ghettos of Czestochowa and Kielce and handed over a number of 
>Jews to the Gestapo." according with the accusation.
>http://www.ihr.org/leaflets/wiesenthal.shtml
>
>Russian prosecution had 100 eyewitnesses and 1 "confession" for the supposed 
>guiltiness of nazis for Katyn.
>
>Eyewitnesses saw also murder "steam chambers" at Treblinka and murder "electrical 
>floor" at Belzec (Nuremberg IMT)
>
>Don't forget that many eyewitnesses of "massive gassings" have LIED by assuming 
>testimonies at camps where no gas chamber existed.
>
>Vrba, Mermelstein, Tauber, Nyiszly, Olere & Al have lied on their testimonies for 
>Auschwitz's gassings.
>
>Why do we find SO MUCH LIARS on that holokost "gassing" stuff?
>Not to mention the novels of wolves, apples and so on.
>
>Actually, I don't know ANY reliable testimony for gassings at Auschwitz.
>
>NYISZLI debunking
>
>
>
> > <> by Dr MIKLOS NYISZLI
> >
> > Introduction
> >
> > I have taken from Dr Nyiszli's book only Chapter Seven, describing the gassing of a
> > convoy at Krematorium II, this being one of the best-known accounts. Many details 
> >can easily be verified using contemporary documents. The description is entirely
> > accurate, EXCEPT for certain FIGURES which are very WRONG indeed.
>
> > http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?p=424345
>
>"The description is entirely accurate, EXCEPT for certain FIGURES which are very 
>WRONG indeed."
>LOL LOL LOL
>
>That's the usual issue with *gassing eyewitnesses*, thank you to have posted that one.
>Let see what we have here:
>
> > There were 3.000 people [17] in the room: men, women and children. Some of the
> > soldiers arrived and announced that everyone must be completely undressed within
> > ten minutes[18].
>
>
>WE have seen that 2500 people couldn't take off their pants, now, imagine 3,000
>in that room! Not less than 10 persons per square meter in the "undressing room" and 
>then more than 14 per square meter in that following *shower room*!
>
>NOt less than about 3 times the Tokyo subway little japs density at rush time!!!
>
>With 2000 packed into, the 1000 remaining at the door of that *shower room* didn't 
>noticed nothing strange and stood quietly on the file.....
>
> > The aged, grandfathers and grandmothers; the children; wives and husbands; all were
> > struck dumb with surprise. Modest women and girls looked at each other
> > questioningly. Perhaps they had not exactly understood the German words. They did
> > not have long to think about it, however, for the order resounded again, this time
> > in a louder, more menacing tone. They were uneasy; their dignity rebelled; but,
> > with the resignation peculiar to their race, having learned that anything went as
> > far as they were concerned, they slowly began to undress. The aged, the paralyzed,
> > the mad were helped by a Sonderkommando squad sent for that purpose.
>
>OK, 10 persons per square meter was not enough, then they sent sonderkommandos to 
>help the paralyzed to undress, how could they do that?
>
>Why didn't Dr. Nyizli even noticed the *really* high density of people in that room?
>
> > In ten minutes all were completely naked, their clothes hung on the pegs, their
> > shoes attached together by the laces. As f or the number of each clothes hanger, it
> > had been carefully noted.
>
>Of course, just after explaining how did they make it with 10 person per square meter
>into such room!
>
> > Making his way through the crowd, an SS opened the swing doors of the large oaken
> > gate at the end of the room.[19]
>
>To be noticed, with such density of packed people, SS were able to make *his way 
>through the crowd* to open a door. Try to figure it on a real world.
>
> > The crowd flowed through it, into another [20], equally well-lighted room. This 
> >second room was the same size as the first 121],
>
>???? That "gas chamber" was just half size than the alleged *undressing room* a 
>detail very difficult to not remark by a doctor (with a density of 14 people per 
>square meter!!)...
>
> > but neither benches nor pegs were to be seen. In the center of the room, at
> > thirty-yard intervals [22], columns rose from the concrete floor to the ceiling.
> > They were not supporting columns, but square sheet-iron pipes [22], the sides of
> > which contained numerous perforations, like a wire lattice.
>
>
>*square sheet-iron pipes* to speak about *wire mesh columns* with a 70 x 70 cm2 
>square section, Hmmm, just a little detail.
>
>*thirty-yard intervals* ???? Amazing precision but FALSE, the room has a total length 
>of 30 meters (32.8 yards).
>
>And, He just *forgets* that in that same room there were ACTUALLY 7 columns of 
>reinforced concrete  to support the ceiling.
>
>http://www.mazal.org/Pressac/Page%20Scans/Page287.htm
>
>Well, well, he just had to add some wolves in the tale and naked young girls to be 
>perfect.
>
>However, we have advised that *the extensive emphases of the original text have been
>omitted*, Gosh, imagine what we have missed.....
>
>As information, let see what Pressac said about that amazing testimony:
>
>"I must admit that the stark contrast between the general precision of the account 
>and enormous errors that it contains led me to think at first that the translator 
>[into French], Mr Tibère KREMER, must be at fault.
>
>Through the intermediary of Serge Klarsfeld, the Yad Vashem provided me with a 
>photocopy of the first Hungarian edition of 1946, apparently published by the author. 
>I checked in the original text to make sure the figures were correct. This enabled me 
>to see that the translator was definitely not at fault. The fact remains, however, 
>that certain figures in the original are quite wrong. Unless and until any further 
>information comes to light, we can but attribute these errors to Dr Nyizli."
>
>http://www.mazal.org/Pressac/Pressac0473.htm
>
>Just 2 more remarks about that dramatic description
>
>How was Zyclon poured?
>
>According with Nyizli:
>
>  "He opened one of the cans and poured the contents — a mauve granulated 
>material(30) —into the opening. [The following sentence, present in the Hungarian and 
>French, is missing from the English translation: “The substance poured in is Zyklon 
>or Chlorine(31). In granulated form, which gives off a gas immediately on contact 
>with air.”] The granulated substance fell in a lump to the bottom."
>
>http://www.mazal.org/Pressac/Pressac0473.htm
>
>Here we have 3 big mistakes:
>
>1- The Zyclon B pellets weren't *mauve* but pale green-blue (another daltonic guy).
>
>2- *The substance poured in is Zyklon or Chlorine*. False,  Zyclon doesn't contain
>Chlorine but Cyanhydric acid (HCN) which evaporated. And Nyizli was a Doctor...
>
>I guess why that following sentence was *omitted* in the English translation.
>
>3- *The granulated substance fell in a lump to the bottom*. FALSE. According with the
>DOGMA, the pellets were poured in a basket which was downed to the floor through wire 
>mesh columns by an amazing push-pull rope system. A gymnastic easy to observe from 
>outside.
>
>The DOgMa tells:
>
>"After the mass murder was complete, the cover was opened, the basket was pulled up, 
>and the Zyklon expelled the remainder of its poison harmlessly into the open air."
>
>http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/intro-columns/
>
>Our Doctor didn't know about the DoGMa at that time.
>
>A bit More:
>
>"The bodies were not lying here and there throughout the room, but piled in a mass to 
>the ceiling. The reason for this was that the gas first inundated the lower layers of 
>air and rose but slowly towards the ceiling. This forced the victims to trample one 
>another in a frantic effort to escape the gas. Yet a few feet higher up the gas 
>reached them. What a struggle for life there must have been! Nevertheless it was 
>merely a matter of two or three minutes' respite."
>
>http://www.mazal.org/Pressac/Pressac0473.htm
>
>Well, well, Nyizli was a doctor but we must ask ourselves where he did find that the 
>gas to kill those people was heavier than the air?
>
>In fact HCN, the gas expelled by ZB pellets, is lighter than the air, so, his 
>allegation that *the gas first inundated the lower layers of air and rose but slowly 
>towards the ceiling* is not a big mistake, it is a pure invention.
>
>As consequence, his speculation about those people *forced to trample one another in 
>a frantic effort to escape the gas* is a ludicrous detail just added to make the 
>account more morbid with those *People piled in a mass to the ceiling*....
>
>It is Amazing to notice how those few *direct testimonies* about supposed *massive
>gassings* are always not only *inaccurate* when we go on the technical details, but
>appears as ACTUAL FORGERIES with always a luxury of dramatic adds. In that one the 
>doctor spare us a description of usual naked young girls and children and a chorus to 
>sing some hebrew hymn.
>
>That one goes directly to my personal collection.
>
>
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Mon May 18 14:08:35 EDT 2009
Article: 2020726 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: To Bent Attorneu Esq.
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Sat, 16 May 2009 00:53:11 +0300, "Toivo Kottarainen"
 wrote:

>
>"Bent Attorney Esq."  kirjoitti 
>viestissä:e9b40792-5976-496f-b3c1-50756053609b@h23g2000vbc.googlegroups.com...
>On May 15, 3:22 pm, "Toivo Kottarainen" 
>wrote:
>
>>
>> Yes, after a company of an SS-division enters a village, surrounds the
>> village and marches the villagers to a nearby forest and shoots them, the
>> people seeing the massacre their reminiscences may vary. It is such an
>> horrible view that the bystanders go to a shock. The God is is merciful or
>> not, but some people remember those shootings, especially in Poland. White
>> Russia, Russia and Ukraine. Not to speak of the Baltic States.
>>
>> Topi
>
>Where did this happen?  Why if it happened did it happen?  It seems to
>me kind of funny that the Germans would wipe out a village for no
>reason.
>How did this happening compare to what the allies did to Germany?  I
>don't hear you condeming the allied atrocities committed in Germany
>and also France.  Their bombs ripped apart children, little girls, old
>men, pregnant women.
>Don't forget Japan.
>******
>You had a very long post, but I answer to Your question "why did it happen". 
>It did happen because Hitler had thought that it was the fault of the 
>international Jewry that Germany lost the World War. He wanted the Jews the 
>be wiped out from Europe.
>His military troops following Himmlers units took that task seriously and 
>killed all the Jews where ever they reached.
>
>If Nazis had not attacked to Poland and further eastwards there had not been 
>bombings nor occupation nor rapes in Germany. What is the cause and what is 
>the result.

LOL, Topi, are you really so naive as to believe that the invasion of
Poland was the ACTUAL reason for WW2? None of this, incidentally,
excuses allied war crimes.

>
>Topi 
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Mon May 18 14:08:35 EDT 2009
Article: 2020727 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: To Bent Attorneu Esq.
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Sat, 16 May 2009 19:59:41 +0300, "Toivo Kottarainen"
 wrote:

>
>"Truthseeker"  kirjoitti 
>viestissä:AQBPl.27038$Db2.4666@edtnps83...
>> You know Cramer could be right. Have a good look how much instability you 
>> people have created since 1945.
>> Kurt Knoll.
>
> We people? If the world was without people there would be stability.
>
>Since 1945 ? Between the years 1934 and 1945 the western world was in chaos 
>and it was a total hell for everyone. No thank You

Wake up, Topi, it is still in chaos. More people have died during the
"American peace" from 1945 to 2009 than died during WW1 or WW2.

>
>Topi 
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Mon May 18 14:08:36 EDT 2009
Article: 2020730 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: To Bent Attorneu Esq.
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Sat, 16 May 2009 01:22:46 +0300, "Toivo Kottarainen"
 wrote:

>
>"B. Cramer"  kirjoitti 
>viestissä:xO2dnaSQF4sne5DXnZ2dnVY3goidnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>
>>>
>>> Yes, after a company of an SS-division enters a village, surrounds the
>>> village and marches the villagers to a nearby forest and shoots them, the
>>> people seeing the massacre their reminiscences may vary. It is such an
>>> horrible view that the bystanders go to a shock. The God is is merciful 
>>> or
>>> not, but some people remember those shootings, especially in Poland. 
>>> White
>>> Russia, Russia and Ukraine. Not to speak of the Baltic States.
>>>
>>> Topi
>>
>> The jews seem to remember these events much more vividly than anyone else. 
>> They "remember" detail that no one else can. Not that they'd ever invent 
>> anything - oh no. Not them.
>>
>> I have never seen a single Norwegian whining about what the Germans did to 
>> my family's hometown - Hammerfest. Nothing. Nada. Zip. Zilch. Perhaps if 
>> there'd been a single jew living there, the story would have made it to 
>> the international stage, or jew owned Hollywood even.
>>
>>
>You and Your family were of course fishing there cod. Ask the Norwegians and 
>especially the inhabitants of Hammerfest what they think of the German 
>Military and for instance the maniac General Shoerner. In the Northern part 
>of Norway there was a mighty German military force and they advanced whole 
>30 kilometers eastwards toward Murmansk. The Finnnnnsih Army laughed at 
>them.

LOL, Topi, there was a small occupation force in Norway to guard the
ore line to Narvik, not a "mighty German military force". Invading the
USSR via Norway might be something you might attempt, but certainly
not the officer corps of the Wehrmacht.

>
>Topi 
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Mon May 18 14:08:37 EDT 2009
Article: 2020731 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: To Bent Attorneu Esq.
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Sat, 16 May 2009 03:50:57 GMT, "Truthseeker" 
wrote:

>
>"I'll Always Be 15/05/09"  wrote in message 
>news:aussies_suck-24FDDC.19570215052009@aries.ka.weretis.net...
>> In article
>> ,
>> "Truthseeker" 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> What a way of distorting the facts Russia wanted to take over Finland and
>>> the Germans were there to support the fins.
>>
>> This is your version...where is your
>> proof?
>Ask some fins.

He could also try opening a few history textbooks.

>kk
>
>>
>>
>>> kk
>>>
>>> "Toivo Kottarainen"  wrote in message
>>> news:4a0e2242$0$24782$9b536df3@news.fv.fi...
>>> >
>>> > "B. Cramer"  kirjoitti
>>> > viestissä:xO2dnaSQF4sne5DXnZ2dnVY3goidnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>> >>
>>> > You and Your family were of course fishing there cod. Ask the 
>>> > Norwegians
>>> > and
>>> > especially the inhabitants of Hammerfest what they think of the German
>>> > Military and for instance the maniac General Shoerner. In the Northern
>>> > part
>>> > of Norway there was a mighty German military force and they advanced 
>>> > whole
>>> > 30 kilometers eastwards toward Murmansk. The Finnnnnsih Army laughed at
>>> > them.
>>> >
>>> > Topi
>>> >
>>> > 
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Mon May 18 14:08:37 EDT 2009
Article: 2020736 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: students thrown out of auschwitz
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Sat, 16 May 2009 15:39:22 +0200, "Heinrich"
 wrote:

>A group of students from Vienna has been thrown out of Auschwitz after they 
>shouted Nazi insults during a tour of the death camp, it emerged last night 
>(Thurs).
>
>The pupils from the Gymnasium Albertgasse in Vienna-Josefstadt said: "There 
>must have been a reason why Jewish people were gassed" and "All Jews should 
>simply be gassed" while a survivor of the camp, who guided the group on a 
>day late April, looked on.
>
>More than 400 students aged between 15 and 17 from various schools were 
>present when the incident occurred at an event organised by the association 
>"March of Remembrance and Hope" (MORAH).

This paragraph contradicts the one before it which says that the
students were from ONE school. There is no way a group of teachers
could control students from other schools. The story sounds
improbable.

>
>The students were sent home after teachers in charge of the group were 
>unable to get them to stop them.
>
>Vienna education authorities said they are investigating the case and that 
>the students could be expelled and the teachers fired.
>
>A decision is expected on Monday.
>
>Albertgasse headmaster Helmuth Hickel refused to comment other than to say 
>that the school had launched an internal investigation.
>
>MORAH spokesman Olivia Pixner-Dirnberger said the incident highlighted that 
>Anti-Semitism was not just a fringe concern but remained a serious problem. 
>He added the vast majority of students and teachers who attended the event 
>in the Polish town where the camp is located, had behaved "highly 
>sensitively."
>
>This incident is the latest in a series incidents highlighting what many see 
>as the continued presence of right-wing extremism in Austrian society.
>
>Two Upper Austrian teenagers are currently in custody after admitting firing 
>plastic bullets at concentration camp survivors at Ebensee last Saturday.
>
>Three more youngsters have been interviewed as well while investigations are 
>ongoing. The teenage suspects are facing ten years in prison for their 
>actions.
>
>The two suspects remaining in custody are just 14 years old. Prosecutors 
>warned they could carry out more attacks if they were allowed to go free.
>
>Apart from investigating accusations that they shot plastic ammunition at 
>the camp survivors while shouting "Sieg Heil!", police are also looking into 
>eyewitness reports that they threw stones at the groups from France and 
>Italy.
>
>Meanwhile, Tyrol tourist officials are outraged after a newspaper article 
>revealed that a Jewish family had been turned away from a hotel in the town 
>of Serfaus.
>
>Irmgard Monz, manager of the "Haus Sonnenhof" apartment hotel reportedly 
>turned the family away because of "bad experiences" with members of the 
>Jewish community in the past 


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Mon May 18 14:08:37 EDT 2009
Article: 2020864 of alt.revisionism
Path: border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-in-01.newsfeed.easynews.com!easynews!core-easynews-01!easynews.com!en-nntp-05.dc1.easynews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Demjanjuk arrives at German prison
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
Message-ID: <935015t1ur4dq8an5ep3n3qg6f15e0apes@4ax.com>
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On Sun, 17 May 2009 03:40:30 GMT, "Truthseeker" 
wrote:

>Good question why would the ship them hundreds of miles to kill them. Would 
>it not be cheaper to kill them where they were instead transporting them all 
>the way.

I always wondered about that myself. It makes no sense to transport
people big distances if the intent is just to kill them. Doing it
locally would be much less hassle.

>Kurt Knoll.
>
>"I'll Always Be 16/05/09"  wrote in message 
>news:aussies_suck-3733E7.20320116052009@aries.ka.weretis.net...
>> In article
>> <9lLPl.27133$Db2.23437@edtnps83>,
>> "Truthseeker" 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> "I'll Always Be 16/05/09"  wrote in message
>>> news:aussies_suck-20F58A.19325916052009@aries.ka.weretis.net...
>>> > In article
>>> > ,
>>> > "Truthseeker" 
>>> > wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> "I'll Always Be 16/05/09"  wrote in 
>>> >> message
>>> >> news:aussies_suck-4FEE24.19113016052009@aries.ka.weretis.net...
>>> >> > In article
>>> >> > ,
>>> >> > "Truthseeker" 
>>> >> > wrote:
>>> >> >
>>> >> >> "I'll Always Be 16/05/09"  wrote in
>>> >> >> message
>>> >> >> news:aussies_suck-55D6F8.17434316052009@aries.ka.weretis.net...
>>> >> >> > In article
>>> >> >> > ,
>>> >> >> > "Truthseeker" 
>>> >> >> > wrote:
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >> The holostorie is telling us 2000 Jews did arrive and went right
>>> >> >> >> into
>>> >> >> >> the
>>> >> >> >> gas chamber. Does it make sense transport the Jew into the
>>> >> >> >> concentration
>>> >> >> >> camp for gassing them.
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> > Why were they sent there?
>>>
>>> To help you with your stories.
>>
>> Why were they sent there?
>>
>>
>>> Kurt Knoll.
>>>
>>> >>
>>> >> So you can manipulate your figures.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Why were they sent there?
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >> Kurt Knoll.
>>> >>
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> They came with a helihopter.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Why were they sent there?
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >> kk
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >> This I would consider poor economics and the sure
>>> >> >> >> know how to brain wash others.
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> > If you washed your brain more often, you
>>> >> >> > would get down to honest stupidity
>>> >> >> > instead of paid stupidity.
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >> Kurt Knoll.
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> "Neil Harrington"  wrote in message
>>> >> >> >> news:b_KdnbE7b89GZ5PXnZ2dnUVZ_s6dnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>> >> >> >> > The Mayor of Pangea wrote:
>>> >> >> >> >> On May 13, 6:36 am, Johannes von Ebersdorf 
>>> >> >> >> >> 
>>> >> >> >> >> wrote:
>>> >> >> >> >>> On Tue, 12 May 2009 19:25:08 -0400, "Neil Harrington"
>>> >> >> >> >>>
>>> >> >> >> >>>
>>> >> >> >> >>>
>>> >> >> >> >>>
>>> >> >> >> >>>
>>> >> >> >> >>>  wrote:
>>> >> >> >> >>>> Johannes von Ebersdorf wrote:
>>> >> >> >> >>>>> On Tue, 12 May 2009 13:26:34 +0200, "Heinrich"
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>  wrote:
>>> >> >> >> >>>
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> Accused Nazi death camp guard John Demjanjuk, deported 
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> from
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> the
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> U.S. to face accusations of being accessory to the murder 
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> of
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> 29,000 Jews and others in 1943, was transferred to a 
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> German
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> prison Tuesday.
>>> >> >> >> >>>
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> Timeline of the Demjanjuk case
>>> >> >> >> >>>
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> The retired Ohio autoworker arrived at Munich's airport 
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> from
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> Cleveland at
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> a Advertisement
>>> >> >> >> >>>
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> bout 9:15 A.M. local time aboard a private jet. The plane
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> taxied
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> directly into a hangar, accompanied by police vehicles 
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> and
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> an
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> ambulance.
>>> >> >> >> >>>
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> From there he was transported by ambulance, under police
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> escort, to a special medical unit of the Stadelheim 
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> prison,
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> where
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> he will be examined by a doctor and formally arrested.
>>> >> >> >> >>>
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> Demjanjuk's transfer to Germany raises the prospect of 
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> the
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> last
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> major Nazi trial in Germany although the 89-year-old, one 
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> of
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> the
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> world's most wanted war crimes suspects, may yet be 
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> deemed
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> unfit
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> to stand trial.
>>> >> >> >> >>>
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> The retired U.S. auto worker had fought his deportation 
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> for
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> months but in the end, U.S. courts rejected his appeals.
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> Demjanjuk, born in Ukraine, has denied any role in the
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> Holocaust.
>>> >> >> >> >>>
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> Demjanjuk was carried in a wheelchair onto a jet that
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> departed
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> Monday evening for Germany, which wants to try him as an
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> accessory
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> to the murders of Jews and others at a Nazi death camp in
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> World
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> War II.
>>> >> >> >> >>>
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> Demjanjuk, 89, arrived in an ambulance at Cleveland Burke
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> Lakefront Airport after spending several hours with U.S.
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> immigration officials at a downtown federal building.
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> Airport
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> commissioner Khalid Bahhur confirmed Demjanjuk was on the
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> plane
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> and that its destination is Germany.
>>> >> >> >> >>>
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> The deportation came four days after the U.S. Supreme 
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> Court
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> refused to consider Demjanjuk's request to block 
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> deportation
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> and
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> about 3 1/2 years after he was last ordered deported.
>>> >> >> >> >>>
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> The Ukrainian-born Demjanjuk (pronounced dem-YAHN'-yuk) 
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> is
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> wanted on a Munich arrest warrant that accuses him of 
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> 29,000
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> counts of accessory to murder as a guard at the Sobibor
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> death
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> camp in Nazi-occupied Poland. The legal case spans three
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> decades.
>>> >> >> >> >>>
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> A German Justice Ministry spokesman, Ulrich Staudigl, 
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> said
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> the
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> retired autoworker was expected to be in Germany by 
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> Tuesday.
>>> >> >> >> >>>
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> Demjanjuk denies Germany's accusations, saying he was 
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> held
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> by
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> the Germans as a Soviet prisoner of war and was never a 
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> camp
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> guard. Demjanjuk's family fought deportation, arguing he 
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> is
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> in
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> poor health and might not survive the trans-Atlantic
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> journey.
>>> >> >> >> >>>
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> Rabbi Marvin Hier, a founder of the Los Angeles-based 
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> Simon
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> Wiesenthal Center, said Demjanjuk deserves to be punished
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> and
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> that
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> this will probably be the last trial of someone accused 
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> of
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> Nazi
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> war crimes.
>>> >> >> >> >>>
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> "His work at the Sobibor death camp was to push men, 
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> women
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> and
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> children into the gas chamber," Hier said in a statement.
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> "He
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> had
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> no mercy, no pity and no remorse for the families whose
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> lives
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> he
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> was destroying."
>>> >> >> >> >>>
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> The center was established to locate and help bring to
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> justice
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> Nazi war criminals.
>>> >> >> >> >>>
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> The deportation capped a day in which Demjanjuk said 
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> goodbye
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> to
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> his family and was visited by two priests at his home in 
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> a
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> Cleveland suburb.
>>> >> >> >> >>>
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> He then slipped quietly into an ambulance parked in his
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> driveway, his family members standing at the edge of the
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> garage
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> and holding up a floral-patterned bedsheet to block the 
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> view
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> of
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> reporters and photographers across the street.
>>> >> >> >> >>>
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> Earlier Monday, his son, John Demjanjuk Jr., said an 
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> appeal
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> in
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> a U.S. court would go ahead even if his father isn't in 
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> the
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> country.
>>> >> >> >> >>>
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> "Given the history of this case and not a shred of 
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> evidence
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> that he ever hurt one person let alone murdered anyone
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> anywhere,
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> this is inhuman even if the courts have said it is 
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> lawful,"
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> Demjanjuk Jr. said.
>>> >> >> >> >>>
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> Also Monday, a Berlin court rejected an appeal aimed at
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> preventing deportation.
>>> >> >> >> >>>
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> Once in Germany, Demjanjuk will be brought before a judge
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> and
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> formally charged. He will also be given the opportunity 
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> to
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> make
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> a
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> statement to the court, in keeping with standard 
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> procedure,
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> Staudigl said.
>>> >> >> >> >>>
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> Demjanjuk is expected to be held in the medical unit of a
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> Munich
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> prison. The government has said preparations have been 
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> made
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> at
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> the
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> facility to ensure he will receive appropriate care.
>>> >> >> >> >>>
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> The case dates to 1977 when the Justice Department moved 
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> to
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> revoke Demjanjuk's U.S. citizenship, alleging he hid his
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> past
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> as a
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> Nazi death camp guard.
>>> >> >> >> >>>
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> Demjanjuk had been tried in Israel after accusations
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> surfaced
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> that he was the notorious Ivan the Terrible at the 
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> Treblinka
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> death
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> camp in Poland. He was found guilty in 1988 of war crimes
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> and
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> crimes against humanity, a conviction overturned by the
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> Israeli
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> Supreme Court.
>>> >> >> >> >>>
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> A U.S. judge revoked his citizenship in 2002 based on 
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> U.S.
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> Justice Department evidence showing he concealed his 
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> service
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> at
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> Sobibor and other Nazi-run death and forced-labor camps.
>>> >> >> >> >>>
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> An immigration judge ruled in 2005 he could be deported 
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> to
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> Germany, Poland or Ukraine. Munich prosecutors issued an
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> arrest
>>> >> >> >> >>>>>> warrant for him in March.
>>> >> >> >> >>>
>>> >> >> >> >>>>> Unfortunately, Germany operates under Roman Law, so when
>>> >> >> >> >>>>> somebody
>>> >> >> >> >>>>> is charged, they are assumed to be guilty and the onus is 
>>> >> >> >> >>>>> on
>>> >> >> >> >>>>> the
>>> >> >> >> >>>>> accused to prove his innocence, practically mission
>>> >> >> >> >>>>> impossible
>>> >> >> >> >>>>> more than sixty years after the fact.
>>> >> >> >> >>>
>>> >> >> >> >>>>> All this whole affair does, is degrade the reputation of
>>> >> >> >> >>>>> Germany
>>> >> >> >> >>>>> as a state where the rule of law is in place. Clearly, the
>>> >> >> >> >>>>> German
>>> >> >> >> >>>>> justice system is being abused as an instrument of revenge 
>>> >> >> >> >>>>> by
>>> >> >> >> >>>>> some
>>> >> >> >> >>>>> small special-interest groups.
>>> >> >> >> >>>
>>> >> >> >> >>>> Yes. As if Germany has not already soiled itself by 
>>> >> >> >> >>>> throwing
>>> >> >> >> >>>> people
>>> >> >> >> >>>> in prison for speaking out against the Holocaust hoax. What
>>> >> >> >> >>>> can
>>> >> >> >> >>>> they be thinking!
>>> >> >> >> >>>
>>> >> >> >> >>>> The idea of a nation dishonoring its own war dead while
>>> >> >> >> >>>> imprisoning
>>> >> >> >> >>>> people for the crime of "defaming the memory of the 
>>> >> >> >> >>>> dead" --
>>> >> >> >> >>>> when
>>> >> >> >> >>>> such "defamation" consists of nothing more than trying to
>>> >> >> >> >>>> defend
>>> >> >> >> >>>> the memory of their own people against fraudulent wartime
>>> >> >> >> >>>> accusations -- simply boggles the mind. What other country 
>>> >> >> >> >>>> has
>>> >> >> >> >>>> ever
>>> >> >> >> >>>> done anything like this?
>>> >> >> >> >>>
>>> >> >> >> >>>> And here in the U.S., Rabbi Marvin Hier and others are 
>>> >> >> >> >>>> crowing
>>> >> >> >> >>>> about the imprisonment of this 89-year-old man -- already
>>> >> >> >> >>>> imprisoned and convicted in Israel 30+ years earlier for
>>> >> >> >> >>>> supposedly
>>> >> >> >> >>>> being a different concentration camp guard, on the usual
>>> >> >> >> >>>> "eyewitness testimony" of "Holocaust survivors," only to 
>>> >> >> >> >>>> have
>>> >> >> >> >>>> that
>>> >> >> >> >>>> conviction overturned when that testimony was shown to be
>>> >> >> >> >>>> false.
>>> >> >> >> >>>
>>> >> >> >> >>>> Well, the hyenas will get him this time, no doubt. He'll 
>>> >> >> >> >>>> die
>>> >> >> >> >>>> in
>>> >> >> >> >>>> prison, a great Jewish victory.
>>> >> >> >> >>>
>>> >> >> >> >>> The Jewish lobby wastes huge sums of money on frivolous 
>>> >> >> >> >>> court
>>> >> >> >> >>> actions
>>> >> >> >> >>> in Canada also. The wasteful and absurd Zundel trials come 
>>> >> >> >> >>> to
>>> >> >> >> >>> mind.
>>> >> >> >> >>>
>>> >> >> >> >>> I hope that Demjanuk gets a courageous lawyer in Germany 
>>> >> >> >> >>> that
>>> >> >> >> >>> is
>>> >> >> >> >>> prepared to risk defending him, since numerous other lawyers
>>> >> >> >> >>> have
>>> >> >> >> >>> come
>>> >> >> >> >>> to grief trying to defend people accused of thought crimes.-
>>> >> >> >> >>> Hide
>>> >> >> >> >>> quoted text -
>>> >> >> >> >>>
>>> >> >> >> >>> - Show quoted text -
>>> >> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> >> Oh pull-lease.  He said he didn't do it!  What's wrong with 
>>> >> >> >> >> you!
>>> >> >> >> >> I
>>> >> >> >> >> suppose some of you think OJ's guilty too!
>>> >> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> >> As if anybody here would want to accuse poor little John 
>>> >> >> >> >> "Ivan
>>> >> >> >> >> the
>>> >> >> >> >> Terrible" Demjanjuk of committing crimes against humanity in 
>>> >> >> >> >> a
>>> >> >> >> >> nazi
>>> >> >> >> >> death camp without evidence approaching a near certainty. As 
>>> >> >> >> >> if
>>> >> >> >> >> "beyond a reasonable doubt" isn't good enough.
>>> >> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >> > You seem to be ignorant of the fact that after being convicted 
>>> >> >> >> > of
>>> >> >> >> > the
>>> >> >> >> > alleged crimes of "Ivan the Terrible," his conviction was
>>> >> >> >> > overturned
>>> >> >> >> > by
>>> >> >> >> > the Israeli Supreme Court when it was proven that he WAS NOT
>>> >> >> >> > "Ivan
>>> >> >> >> > the
>>> >> >> >> > Terrible" -- notiwithstanding all those "eyewitnesses" who
>>> >> >> >> > identified
>>> >> >> >> > him
>>> >> >> >> > as such.
>>> >> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >> > So much for your "evidence approaching a near certainty."
>>> >> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >> > So forget "Ivan the Terrible." Now he's being accused of being
>>> >> >> >> > someone
>>> >> >> >> > else altogether, arrested again, deported again, and the cycle
>>> >> >> >> > starts
>>> >> >> >> > again.
>>> >> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >> > These Holocaust promoters and "victims" are a greedy and
>>> >> >> >> > vindictive
>>> >> >> >> > people, and having been shown to be false witnesses does not
>>> >> >> >> > change
>>> >> >> >> > their
>>> >> >> >> > behavior or even embarrass them, evidently.
>>> >> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >> > 
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Mon May 18 14:08:38 EDT 2009
Article: 2020865 of alt.revisionism
Path: border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-in-01.newsfeed.easynews.com!easynews!core-easynews-01!easynews.com!en-nntp-04.dc1.easynews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Beacon is retarded?
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
Message-ID: 
References: <4dSdnVg3OshArZDXnZ2dnVY3go2dnZ2d@giganews.com> <7cd7$4a0d391b$596480f8$13869@news.upc.ie>  <1b28a$4a0d4e37$596480f8$1581@news.upc.ie> <6padnS5AJc6szJDXnZ2dnUVZ_gudnZ2d@giganews.com> <82eee$4a0df885$596480f8$23545@news.upc.ie>   <3p5u055js6dom8gss2b177fr5ld8om5ets@4ax.com> <520d8$4a0f48e8$596480f8$27154@news.upc.ie>
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On Sat, 16 May 2009 23:59:03 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
 wrote:

>
>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message 
>news:3p5u055js6dom8gss2b177fr5ld8om5ets@4ax.com...
>> On Sat, 16 May 2009 13:02:29 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
>>  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Neil Harrington"  wrote in message
>>>news:l5udnSX8PYVBmZPXnZ2dnUVZ_uidnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>>
>[snip]
>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But enough of this diddle daddle.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yesh right! I wont bother with cramer then. Ploink
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Have you noticed that Doc Tony seems to have taken quite an interest 
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> you?
>>>>>
>>>>> No I haven't! Have you any evidence to support that claim?
>>>>
>>>> I think his exact words were, "She has made roast meat of my heart!"
>>>
>>>Really? Where did he state that?
>>>
>>>By the way how do you know if I am female or Jewish?
>>
>> If you are a guy and your parents perversely named you Mavis, then all
>> your many problems are clearly explained.
>
>And your real name is "Johannes von Ebersdorf" is it? 
>
That is what the headers say. What is your hangup about "real" names?
Most of the exterminationists use handles such as "I'll always be" and
there isn't a whine to be heard from Mavis. Why do the
exterminationists use pseudonyms?


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Mon May 18 14:08:39 EDT 2009
Article: 2020866 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: To Bent Attorneu Esq.
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
Message-ID: 
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On Sat, 16 May 2009 13:29:29 -0700 (PDT), george 
wrote:

>On May 17, 4:59 am, "Toivo Kottarainen" 
>wrote:
>> "Truthseeker"  kirjoitti
>> viestissä:AQBPl.27038$Db2.4666@edtnps83...
>>
>> > You know Cramer could be right. Have a good look how much instability you
>> > people have created since 1945.
>> > Kurt Knoll.
>>
>>  We people? If the world was without people there would be stability.
>>
>> Since 1945 ? Between the years 1934 and 1945 the western world was in chaos
>> and it was a total hell for everyone. No thank You
>>
>Yup. Thanks to the nazis attempt at world domination some 30,000,000
>people died.

The "world domination" claim is silly American war propaganda, and the
usual figure for WW2 dead is between 55 million and 60 million.

>Is kurt claiming that that was some sort of stability???
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Mon May 18 14:08:39 EDT 2009
Article: 2020868 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: students thrown out of auschwitz
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Sat, 16 May 2009 16:55:49 -0400, Johnny Asia
 wrote:

>On Sat, 16 May 2009 16:39:17 -0400, Johannes von Ebersdorf
> wrote:
>
> organised by the association 
>>>"March of Remembrance and Hope" (MORAH).
>>
>>This paragraph contradicts the one before it which says that the
>>students were from ONE school. There is no way a group of teachers
>>could control students from other schools. The story sounds
>>improbable.
>> 
>
>The article is here:
>
>http://www.austriantimes.at/index.php?id=13272

I have no doubt that it was correctly quoted, but it seems unlikely
that significant numbers of students would have reacted this way
without some provocation. Lots of people are simply fed up with the
constant demonization and vilification of everything German that has
been the standard propaganda fare since 1945. An anti-German harangue
by the tour guide or somebody else could easily have set them off.

>
>
>
> 
>+
>
>Pucker your lips for the Apocalypse!
>
>Johnny Asia, Guitarist from the Future
>
>
>http://johnnyasia.com
>
>- 


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Mon May 18 14:08:40 EDT 2009
Article: 2020869 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Crosses at Auschwitz
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
Message-ID: 
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On Sun, 17 May 2009 21:08:04 +1000, "B. Cramer"
 wrote:

>
> wrote in message 
>news:045b6175-1506-40e7-a94e-b0e6afc36feb@m24g2000vbp.googlegroups.com...
>On May 16, 5:08 pm, "Heinrich"  wrote:
>> http://www.nytimes.com/1998/12/20/world/poles-and-jews-feud-about-cro...
>
>>As i happened to remember and i rechecked , this was an article from
>>1998.
>>After 1998 , some discussions between all parties involved , and it
>>was agreed where and if crosses could be put there .
>>mirjam
>
>You miss the point, mirjammyrag. There NEVER should have been any question 
>about whether crosses should be permitted.
>
>What makes you think the fucking hebes own this story?
>
>
In addition, the last time I looked, Auschwitz was in Poland and
Poland is a thoroughly Roman Catholic country. It is their privilege
to put crosses anywhere they wish.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Mon May 18 14:08:40 EDT 2009
Article: 2021002 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Beacon is retarded?
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Sun, 17 May 2009 11:35:01 -0400, "Neil Harrington" 
wrote:

>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message 
>news:gf5u0550s6fkeun3hse43fj1vofib31511@4ax.com...
>> On Sat, 16 May 2009 09:11:38 +1000, "B. Cramer"
>>  wrote:
>>
>>>Doc Tony wrote:
>>>> B. Cramer wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "Doc Tony"  wrote in message
>>>>> news:qO6dnQ-fb8iDD5DXnZ2dnUVZ_gmdnZ2d@posted.localnet...
>>>>>
>
>[ . . . ]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ahhh! Ben is not only sucked in to a tag-team with Neil
>>>>>> "Rewriteman®" Harrington's 'wowies' but apparently makes good on
>>>>>> his boast [by way of the search engines] that he's [Cramer] been
>>>>>> studying "for almost two years now" [sic -- Cramer] both Hebrew and
>>>>>> Yiddish via the [transliterated] Yiddish saying up above. Perhaps
>>>>>> such 'study' helps on those much Cramer ballyhooed both boat and
>>>>>> air 'business' schleps to the Promised Land. Somehow tho', I see a
>>>>>> great irony in Ben sitting at the table via the alleged boat schlep
>>>>>> to Israel and making with the raised glass "L'Chaim!" toast!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Huh?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> What's with the Alex "Muleschlep®" Vangel "Huh?" impression, Ben? You
>>>> made a big thing about traveling to the 'Promised Land' multiple times
>>>> by both air and by ship and you quite frequently drop words like
>>>> 'kvetch' et al, so, what now, you're telling me that the classic
>>>> "L'Chaim!" and very common Jewish drinking toast [To 'Life' !] escapes
>>>> you?
>>>
>>>Nope. I simply didn't understand a word you were saying. A bit early in 
>>>the
>>>day here to decipher.
>>
>> Poor Doc is always funny. It takes some real talent to put together
>> these strings of gobbledegook where your mind struggles to find
>> meaning in a string of text where there is none. It is classic
>> theatre-of-the-absurd writing.
>
>I don't know that "talent" is quite the right word, but it does take some 
>characteristic that you don't come across very often. He manages to go well 
>beyond the merely absurd, which I suppose is an accomplishment of sorts. 
>
The trick with a theatre of the absurd is to write something that
seems to make sense on the surface but is actually quite devoid of
meaning. Doc falls rather short on the former but does really well on
the latter.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Mon May 18 14:08:40 EDT 2009
Article: 2021003 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: students thrown out of auschwitz
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Sun, 17 May 2009 15:02:35 +0000 (UTC), No-Spam-At-All
 wrote:

>In article ,
>Johannes von Ebersdorf   wrote:
>
>> I have no doubt that it was correctly quoted, but it seems unlikely
>> that significant numbers of students would have reacted this way
>> without some provocation. 
>
>Yes there is.  They're pigs.  Like their grandfathers.  Next time
>around,  we'll need to make sure that Vienna will look like this:
>
>http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/87/Hamburg_after_the_1943_bombing.jpg

That says dramatically more about your own moral and intellectual
short-comings than it does about these students.

>
>Maybe that will help!  Nothing else seems to get through.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed May 20 15:13:27 EDT 2009
Article: 2021427 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Beacon is retarded?
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Sun, 17 May 2009 15:48:27 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
 wrote:

>
>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message 
>news:u85015pnu5cf52msevc9af5n58im9r34h6@4ax.com...
>> On Sat, 16 May 2009 23:59:03 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
>>  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message
>>>news:3p5u055js6dom8gss2b177fr5ld8om5ets@4ax.com...
>>>> On Sat, 16 May 2009 13:02:29 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
>>>>  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>"Neil Harrington"  wrote in message
>>>>>news:l5udnSX8PYVBmZPXnZ2dnUVZ_uidnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>>>>
>>>[snip]
>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But enough of this diddle daddle.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yesh right! I wont bother with cramer then. Ploink
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Have you noticed that Doc Tony seems to have taken quite an interest
>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>> you?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No I haven't! Have you any evidence to support that claim?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think his exact words were, "She has made roast meat of my heart!"
>>>>>
>>>>>Really? Where did he state that?
>>>>>
>>>>>By the way how do you know if I am female or Jewish?
>>>>
>>>> If you are a guy and your parents perversely named you Mavis, then all
>>>> your many problems are clearly explained.
>>>
>>>And your real name is "Johannes von Ebersdorf" is it?
>>>
>> That is what the headers say.
>
>So? Is it or isn't it?
>
>>What is your hangup about "real" names?
>
>No hangups. YOU are the one insinuating my parents named me "Mavis" not me.
>
>> Most of the exterminationists use handles such as "I'll always be" and
>> there isn't a whine to be heard from Mavis.
>
>Nor did I mention anything about anyone elses name. I only asked YOU about 
>YOURS being real or not when YOU suggested "Mavisbeacon" was my name in the 
>real world.

I don't care what your name is in the "real" world, only that your
posts can be distinguished from those of a thousand other people who
use this newsgroup.

>
>>Why do the
>> exterminationists use pseudonyms?
>
>So you are suggesting "Johannes von Ebersdorf" is NOT a pseudonym?
>
You didn't answer my question, and why are you so concerned about
names in the "real" world? Are you trying to put together information
for a stalking or harassment campaign? 


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed May 20 15:13:28 EDT 2009
Article: 2021428 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: jew knobloch welcomes demjanjuk's deportation
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Mon, 18 May 2009 21:08:30 -0700, "Jason P"
 wrote:

>
>"Kenneth McVay OBC"  wrote in message 
>news:opadnRdRTOqGVJTXnZ2dnUVZ_jdi4p2d@vex.net...
>> In article ,
>> The hapless Intellectual Giant of Holocaust Revisionism,
>> Kurt Knoll, reigning Village Idiot of Kitimat  and Laughing
>> Stock of UseNet, fluffed his Chicken Yellow Hitler Jugend
>> Tutu with the "keiner da" Cross and  wrote:
>>
>>>How naive could the Germans be when they elected a jewees as president.
>>
>> The Germans did not elect a Jew as President, you moron.

The President is elected by the Bundestag, not by the public. The most
recent thing I heard was that the President was a man.

>>
>
>Get over yourself shit breath Mc Vay, fagot!


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed May 20 15:13:28 EDT 2009
Article: 2021452 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nazi holocaust slogans´ shock
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Tue, 19 May 2009 09:55:46 +0200, "Heinrich"
 wrote:

>The President of the Islamic Community in Austria said he was reminded of 
>the Nazi persecution of Jews after seeing the Freedom Party's (FPÖ) poster 
>campaign.
>
>Anas Schakfeh said in an interview with tomorrow's (Tues) Kurier, statements 
>such as "Occident in the hands of Christians!" took him back to the horrors 
>of the holocaust which started as verbal attacks on Jews.
>
>Ernst Strasser, front-runner of the People's Party (ÖVP) in the upcoming 
>elections for the European Parliament (EP) said with the FPÖ is "on the 
>border of Nazism" with its current slogans. Strasser added the party's 
>politics are "disgraceful."
>
>FPÖ boss Hein-Christian Strache reacted to criticism by calling Social 
>Democratic (SPÖ) Chancellor Werner Faymann as an "agitating Chancellor" who 
>is "not worthy of the job."
>
>Strache came under fire for calling the neo-Nazi disturbance in former 
>concentration camp Ebensee, Upper Austria, as "foolish acts of boyish 
>stupidity", adding the offenders should be told "some strict words" but 
>should not be kept in "custody for weeks."
>
>Two of the five teenage suspects are currently held in detention while 
>investigations are ongoing. 

This whole flap is about FIVE people? Classes generally have at least
30 people, so this whole thing starts to smell like a media circus and
a bit of sensationalism.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed May 20 15:13:29 EDT 2009
Article: 2021453 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: jewess knobloch: 'Hitler didn't win'
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Tue, 19 May 2009 11:54:24 +0200, "Heinrich"
 wrote:

>A country once booming with Jewish life and culture is finally seeing a 
>renaissance after decades of post-war fear.
>
>Munich's new synagogue, museum and community center, unveiled in the heart 
>of the city in March 2007, is a prime example of the resurgence of Jewish 
>centers of life and worship across Germany.
>
>The cities of Ulm, Potsdam and Cologne are all due to open new Jewish 
>centers, while the town of Erfurt is currently renovating a synagogue dating 
>back to the year 1100.
>
>At the same time, these German centers of Jewish life are protected by 
>bollards and permanently guarded by policemen, for fear of neo-Nazi attacks, 
>exemplifying the delicate status of Germany's Jewish revival.
>
>After 1945, some 12,000 Jews lived in Germany, a mere 2 per cent of the 
>600,000 living in the country before World War II.

There were 200,000 Jews living in Germany in 1939, and at no point
were there more than 500,000 Jews resident in Germany.

>
>Charlotte Knobloch, the President of Germany's Central Council of Jews, is 
>one of the few who survived the war and stayed. Born in Munich in 1932, the 
>lawyer's daughter was hidden on a farm where she was passed off as the 
>illegitimate child of a Catholic woman.
>
>"I didn't want to return to Munich. I wanted to leave this country 
>immediately because I couldn't imagine the times would change," Knobloch 
>said in an interview with DPA.
>
>After the war, a small number of other survivors returned from the 
>concentration camps and from exile abroad.
>
>For years, Germany's Jewish community remained small, visible only in cities 
>such as Munich, when tight-knit groups of men in top hats and black coats 
>could be glimpsed on their way to Friday evening prayers.
>
>Knobloch said there was a general lack of information. "People asked me, 'we 
>know that Jews live in Munich, but where are they?' Certain prejudices 
>arose," she added.
>
>With the collapse of Communism after 1989, all that changed. Germany opened 
>its doors to Jews living in the former Soviet Union, in a bid to revive 
>Jewish life in Germany whilst offering refuge from growing Russian 
>anti-Semitism.
>
>A special ruling enabled 190,000 Jewish immigrants to reach Germany between 
>1989 and 2005, of whom more than 80,000 were integrated into Germany's 
>Jewish communities. These now make up the vast majority of around 106,000 
>Jews living in these communities.
>
>This wave of immigration, which injected new life and turned Germany's 
>Jewish population into one of the fastest-growing in the world, has not been 
>without difficulty.
>
>While the eastern immigrants arrived with skills and education, few could 
>speak German and also had to relearn Jewish religious expression and customs 
>suppressed under communism.
>
>Having witnessed the process after 1945 by which people had gingerly sought 
>out a new, common identity, Knobloch is convinced the recent wave of 
>immigrants can be successfully integrated.
>
>"It is important, however, not to force anyone into a religious identity, 
>rather they must accept it with enthusiasm - then we have succeeded," 
>Knobloch said.
>
>The 76-year-old with an unmistakeable Bavarian lilt insists that, as elected 
>head of Germany's Jews, she is able to speak for the community with one 
>voice, although her views are more outspoken than some of her predecessors'.
>
>Although Germany's Jews are one minority amongst many, Knobloch says they 
>mustn't forget the shadows of the Holocaust.
>
>"Because of the history, the fact that Jews are living in this country at 
>all has a special status," Knobloch said.
>
>"Such a crime against people who simply had a religion and were murdered for 
>it, excluded, humiliated, driven away, just because they were Jews, has to 
>stay in the memory of generations," Knobloch added.
>
>Echoes of the past are still contained in the neo-Nazi threats which flare 
>up in Germany from time to time. Although this is a tiny extremist fringe, 
>reports of desecrated Jewish cemeteries and anti- Semitic paroles often 
>catch international attention.
>
>"It's a shame for this country, which has made so many efforts over the 
>decades, if the appearance from abroad is that Germany could be dominated 
>again by neo-Nazis," Knobloch said.
>
>"There are problems that still need to be solved," she said. "In
>
>light of the current economic crisis we need to make sure these Nazi
>
>gangs don't reach a status that can't be revoked," Knobloch added.

>
>Nevertheless the leader of the Jewish Council warns against exaggerating the 
>threat, as modern-day Germany is a different country to the 1930s.
>
>"We are a solid democracy. Weimar didn't collapse because of the Nazis but 
>because there were too few democrats," Knobloch says of the regime which 
>brought Hitler to power.
>
>Knobloch believes that Germany's Jewish community plays a crucial role in 
>the country, simply by showing, with developments such as Munich's Jewish 
>cultural center, that Hitler didn't win.
>__________________ 


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed May 20 15:13:29 EDT 2009
Article: 2021454 of alt.revisionism
Path: border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-in-01.newsfeed.easynews.com!easynews!core-easynews-01!easynews.com!en-nntp-09.dc1.easynews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: German nationwide White music bust
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
Message-ID: 
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On Tue, 19 May 2009 08:49:59 -0700 (PDT), "Bent Attorney Esq."
 wrote:

>On May 19, 5:56 am, "Heinrich"  wrote:
>> More than 55,000 recordings, 170 computers, 180 external storage devices and
>> 66 weapons have been confiscated from raids of 220 apartments and businesses
>
>Music and information is seized.  Weapons?  The State has the most
>weapons, therefore they 'rule'.

That is the usual definition of "state". It has a legal monopoly on
violence.

Israel, being a Jewish state, means that Jews have a monopoly on
violence.

Germany, by contrast, is not permitted to be a German state as it
always had been in the past. They appear to be obliged to accept all
manner of aliens, quite unlike Israel which is able to control the
demographic composition of its population. Why is it right for Israel
but wrong for Germany?



From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed May 20 15:13:29 EDT 2009
Article: 2021455 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: German nationwide White music bust
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
Message-ID: 
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On Tue, 19 May 2009 19:40:40 +0200, "Heinrich"
 wrote:

>
>"I'll Always Be 19/05/09"  schreef in bericht 
>news:aussies_suck-473057.10344319052009@aries.ka.weretis.net...
>> In article
>> <77fe1vF1h77onU1@mid.individual.net>,
>> "Heinrich" 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> More than 55,000 recordings, 170 computers, 180 external storage devices 
>>> and
>>> 66 weapons have been confiscated from raids of 220 apartments and 
>>> businesses
>>
>> Yup, just like cramer, you euro's have
>> no respect for copyright
>
>it isnot a matter of copyright but they tryto silence white pride music and 
>the old nazi songs as well 

Yes, this was quite political in nature and had absolutely nothing to
do with copyright infringement.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed May 20 15:13:30 EDT 2009
Article: 2021460 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Beacon is retarded?
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
Message-ID: 
References: <6padnS5AJc6szJDXnZ2dnUVZ_gudnZ2d@giganews.com> <82eee$4a0df885$596480f8$23545@news.upc.ie>   <3p5u055js6dom8gss2b177fr5ld8om5ets@4ax.com> <520d8$4a0f48e8$596480f8$27154@news.upc.ie>  <2c653$4a111976$596480f8$14501@news.upc.ie>  
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On Tue, 19 May 2009 20:31:09 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
 wrote:

>
>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message 
>news:hjt51555ecp47tddkhnj9cbv89cojbn5uh@4ax.com...
>> On Sun, 17 May 2009 15:48:27 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
>>  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message
>>>news:u85015pnu5cf52msevc9af5n58im9r34h6@4ax.com...
>>>> On Sat, 16 May 2009 23:59:03 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
>>>>  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message
>>>>>news:3p5u055js6dom8gss2b177fr5ld8om5ets@4ax.com...
>>>>>> On Sat, 16 May 2009 13:02:29 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
>>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>"Neil Harrington"  wrote in message
>>>>>>>news:l5udnSX8PYVBmZPXnZ2dnUVZ_uidnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>[snip]
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> But enough of this diddle daddle.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Yesh right! I wont bother with cramer then. Ploink
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Have you noticed that Doc Tony seems to have taken quite an 
>>>>>>>>>> interest
>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>> you?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> No I haven't! Have you any evidence to support that claim?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I think his exact words were, "She has made roast meat of my heart!"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Really? Where did he state that?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>By the way how do you know if I am female or Jewish?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you are a guy and your parents perversely named you Mavis, then all
>>>>>> your many problems are clearly explained.
>>>>>
>>>>>And your real name is "Johannes von Ebersdorf" is it?
>>>>>
>>>> That is what the headers say.
>>>
>>>So? Is it or isn't it?
>>>
>>>>What is your hangup about "real" names?
>>>
>>>No hangups. YOU are the one insinuating my parents named me "Mavis" not 
>>>me.
>>>
>>>> Most of the exterminationists use handles such as "I'll always be" and
>>>> there isn't a whine to be heard from Mavis.
>>>
>>>Nor did I mention anything about anyone elses name. I only asked YOU about
>>>YOURS being real or not when YOU suggested "Mavisbeacon" was my name in 
>>>the
>>>real world.
>>
>> I don't care what your name is in the "real" world, only that your
>> posts can be distinguished from those of a thousand other people who
>> use this newsgroup.
>YOU are the one insinuating my parents named me "Mavis" not me.
>[your words]
>If you are a guy and your parents perversely named you Mavis,
>[end quote]

Your header says "Mavis". I took you at your word. Was I wrong?

>
>>
>>>
>>>>Why do the
>>>> exterminationists use pseudonyms?
>>>
>>>So you are suggesting "Johannes von Ebersdorf" is NOT a pseudonym?
>>>
>> You didn't answer my question,
>
>Your question is based on a false premise.
>First of all the other posters do not ALL use a pseudonym!
>Second YOU use one yourself so why are you trying to accuse others of 
>something you already do?
>Particularly when some of them don't  do it?
>
>>and why are you so concerned about
>> names in the "real" world?
>
>Who said I was? YOU are the one who brought up that issue! Remember?
>
>>Are you trying to put together information
>> for a stalking or harassment campaign?
>
>I could not be bothered following the likes of you around. Jorg Heider whom 
>I have met or the likes of Irving I may be interested in debating in a 
>popular forum but I don't think Id go out of my way to go to a public 
>lecture by you.
>
>If you have nothing to hide and nothing to fear and dont mind the annoyance 
>then by all means use your real name if you wish but please don't project 
>your feelings onto me. You have no idea how I feel and it does not matter 
>really because we are dealing with historic FACTS here and not with how 
>people like you feel about them with your unsupported OPINION. 
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed May 20 15:13:30 EDT 2009
Article: 2021462 of alt.revisionism
Path: border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-in-01.newsfeed.easynews.com!easynews!core-easynews-01!easynews.com!en-nntp-05.dc1.easynews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: German nationwide White music bust
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Tue, 19 May 2009 17:01:58 -0400, "Patrick Keenan" 
wrote:

>"Heinrich"  wrote in message 
>news:77g98vF1grqegU1@mid.individual.net...
>>
>> "I'll Always Be 19/05/09"  schreef in 
>> bericht news:aussies_suck-473057.10344319052009@aries.ka.weretis.net...
>>> In article
>>> <77fe1vF1h77onU1@mid.individual.net>,
>>> "Heinrich" 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> More than 55,000 recordings, 170 computers, 180 external storage devices 
>>>> and
>>>> 66 weapons have been confiscated from raids of 220 apartments and 
>>>> businesses
>>>
>>> Yup, just like cramer, you euro's have
>>> no respect for copyright
>>
>> it isnot a matter of copyright but they tryto silence white pride music 
>> and the old nazi songs as well
>
>They do the same thing with kiddie porn, too.

You're comparing apples and oranges, Patrick. Kiddie porn can be
construed as being harmful to the children used/abused in its
production, but I can't see that anybody is harmed by somebody who
wants to listen to "white pride music" or even "old nazi songs" any
more than anybody is harmed by listening to any type of music.

Why do you care what music somebody chooses to put in their CD player?

>
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed May 20 15:13:30 EDT 2009
Article: 2021463 of alt.revisionism
Path: border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-in-01.newsfeed.easynews.com!easynews!core-easynews-01!easynews.com!en-nntp-05.dc1.easynews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Strange: The Destruction of German documents by Allies.
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
Message-ID: 
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On Tue, 19 May 2009 22:04:14 +0200, ZuLu  wrote:

>Why for?
>
>Weren't nazis supposed to have left "any traces" of their alleged "crimes"?
>
>Why such need to destroy a mass of German documents which "couldn't fall in German 
>hands"?
>
>The proof from the book
>Unternehmen Patentenraub-1945 by Friedrich Georg, (Tuebingen: Grabert-Verlag, 2008).

That was an extremely interesting and informative book.

>
>Extract p 53
>http://cjoint.com/?ftvMkdmdV7
>http://rapidshare.com/files/234917521/Document_Hidden_German_Archives.jpg.html


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed May 20 15:13:31 EDT 2009
Article: 2021571 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Strange: The Destruction of German documents by Allies.
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
Message-ID: 
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On Tue, 19 May 2009 23:51:07 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
 wrote:

>
>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message 
>news:nha615hckvuk92s7ed6d4fnfcmoueedc1d@4ax.com...
>> On Tue, 19 May 2009 22:04:14 +0200, ZuLu  wrote:
>>
>>>Why for?
>>>
>>>Weren't nazis supposed to have left "any traces" of their alleged 
>>>"crimes"?
>>>
>>>Why such need to destroy a mass of German documents which "couldn't fall 
>>>in German
>>>hands"?
>>>
>>>The proof from the book
>>>Unternehmen Patentenraub-1945 by Friedrich Georg, (Tuebingen: 
>>>Grabert-Verlag, 2008).
>>
>> That was an extremely interesting and informative book.
>
>Was it? You read the lot of it in two hours?

Where did this crap originate? The book is rather too long to read in
two hours.

>
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed May 20 15:13:32 EDT 2009
Article: 2021572 of alt.revisionism
Path: border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-in-01.newsfeed.easynews.com!easynews!core-easynews-01!easynews.com!en-nntp-02.dc1.easynews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: greedy survivors want more money
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Wed, 20 May 2009 08:51:15 +0200, "Heinrich"
 wrote:

>The Supreme Court has turned away a plea from Holocaust survivors who 
>contend that German companies withheld $100 million from a fund for victims 
>of Nazi-era forced labor.
>
>The justices declined Monday to revive a lawsuit survivors filed against 17 
>companies, including BMW, Volkswagen ( VLKAF.PK - news - people ) and 
>Deutsche Bank ( DB - news - people ), that paid $2.5 billion into a 
>reparation fund for U.S. claims.

That is in accordance with a treaty between the BRD and the USA
putting an end to all further claims originating in U.S. courts. That
was the stipulation under which Germany agreed to the fund, namely
that this would be the LAST of the claims.

>
>The federal appeals court in Philadelphia had upheld a trial judge's 
>dismissal of the suit involving interest that the plaintiffs contend accrued 
>during a six- to nine-month period when payments to the fund were delayed.
>
>U.S. and German officials negotiated the fund agreement in 1999. The German 
>firms argued that the agreement capped their interest payments at about $50 
>million. The six named plaintiffs, all Nazi camp survivors living in the 
>U.S., argued that the figure represented the minimum amount of interest, not 
>a cap.
>
>The case is Gross v. German Foundation Industrial Initiative, 08-1106. 


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed May 20 15:15:12 EDT 2009
Article: 2497273 of soc.culture.usa
Path: border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-in-01.newsfeed.easynews.com!easynews!core-easynews-01!easynews.com!en-nntp-05.dc1.easynews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.usa
Subject: Re: Unions are unconstitutional...
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
Message-ID: <7dgo05dqvmv4bbcsib7ksb3rgqetf0sk4m@4ax.com>
References:     <50727e55-a300-402b-aa63-b1db4780766a@t10g2000vbg.googlegroups.com>  <82ri05hp9kfjb7hlc5mtapkfbqcc4qme79@4ax.com> <82e371c8-6ce4-4c17-98e4-49aac5802d46@j12g2000vbl.googlegroups.com>   
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On Wed, 13 May 2009 05:12:20 -0700 (PDT),
TedKennedyMurderedHisPregnantMistress.dwpj65@spamgourmet.com wrote:

>On May 13, 6:31 am, Johannes von Ebersdorf 
>wrote:
>> On Tue, 12 May 2009 08:32:22 -0700 (PDT),
>>
>>
>>
>> TedKennedyMurderedHisPregnantMistress.dwp...@spamgourmet.com wrote:
>> >On May 12, 8:37 am, Johannes von Ebersdorf 
>> >wrote:
>> >> On Mon, 11 May 2009 12:23:40 -0700 (PDT),
>>
>> >> TedKennedyMurderedHisPregnantMistress.dwp...@spamgourmet.com wrote:
>> >> >On May 11, 3:05 pm, "4976 Dead, 109 since 1/20/09"
>> >> > wrote:
>> >> >> On Mon, 11 May 2009 14:41:47 -0400, WangoTango
>>
>> >> >>  wrote:
>> >> >> >In article ,
>> >> >> >ze...@finestplanet.com says...
>> >> >> >> On Mon, 11 May 2009 11:11:12 -0400, WangoTango
>> >> >> >>  wrote:
>>
>> >> >> >> >In article ,
>> >> >> >> >ze...@finestplanet.com says...
>> >> >> >> >> On Fri, 8 May 2009 10:48:33 -0400, WangoTango
>> >> >> >> >>  wrote:
>>
>> >> >> >> >> >In article ,
>> >> >> >> >> >chine.b...@yahoo.com says...
>> >> >> >> >> >> In article ,
>> >> >> >> >> >>  WangoTango  wrote:
>>
>> >> >> >> >> >> > In article ,
>> >> >> >> >> >> > chine.b...@yahoo.com says...
>> >> >> >> >> >> > > In article ,
>> >> >> >> >> >> > >  WangoTango  wrote:
>>
>> >> >> >> >> >> > > > They are expected to know what their requirements are when they walk in
>> >> >> >> >> >> > > > and present them to the prospective employer.  In other words they
>> >> >> >> >> >> > > > negotiate their own deal just like most people do all the time.  Just
>> >> >> >> >> >> > > > like I have done on EVERY job I have ever taken since I was 15 years
>> >> >> >> >> >> > > > old.
>> >> >> >> >> >> > > > What is so difficult about that?
>>
>> >> >> >> >> >> > > Some people choose to be different from you.
>>
>> >> >> >> >> >> > Yep, but that is THEIR choice.
>> >> >> >> >> >> > Unions attempt to remove that choice, or have you missed the point here?
>>
>> >> >> >> >> >> Everyone in this game attempts to restrict choices to their favour.
>>
>> >> >> >> >> >Yep, no skill to low skill people like unions because it gives them a
>> >> >> >> >> >prefab employment opportunity.
>> >> >> >> >> >People that have a real skill to offer know that THEY are best suited to
>> >> >> >> >> >market that skill.
>>
>> >> >> >> >> Here's comes the class warfare.  Never fails
>>
>> >> >> >> >> Only the elite deserve a decent wage.
>> >> >> >> >Not what I said.
>>
>> >> >> >> Just what you meant.
>> >> >> >If that's what makes you feel better.
>>
>> >> >> >> >> >At the end of the day, unions are in business to stay in business and
>> >> >> >> >> >the workers getting some kind of 'deal' is secondary.
>>
>> >> >> >> >> So why do union employees get much better wages and benefits?
>> >> >> >> >Around here, they don't.
>>
>> >> >> >> Oh, I imagine any place you run is a real shit hole.
>> >> >> >A bit short on imagination, I guess.
>>
>> >> >> >> >> >In a free society each should be allowed to make that choice as they see
>> >> >> >> >> >fit and unions do not want workers to have that option.
>>
>> >> >> >> >> If the workers elect to be in a union, you need to respect that.
>>
>> >> >> >> >Yep, and as a business owner, I can fire their asses and they should
>> >> >> >> >respect that.
>>
>> >> >> >> Not if you signed an agreement, you don't.
>>
>> >> >> >Well, that's true, a contract is a contract, if entered into freely by
>> >> >> >the parties involved, but that's not what you, and your ilk, want.  You
>> >> >> >want to force yourselves and your demands upon a company and the
>> >> >> >workers.  You have so much as admitted that in other posts.
>>
>> >> >> Oh, cry me a river, bubbles.  All I'm proposing is leveling the
>> >> >> playing field.  You types run around with a totally spurious sense
>> >> >> that you are ENTITLED to treat labor as overhead, rather than as an
>> >> >> iingregal asset in your business, and that you have the right to
>> >> >> determine wages as you see fit.
>>
>> >> >> In a consumer society, that's suicidal.  That's your own customer base
>> >> >> you're undermining.
>>
>> >> >Damned, just when I think you couldn't get any dumber, you go and
>> >> >prove me wrong.
>>
>> >> >It's called "free market."
>>
>> >> There is no such thing. The market, be it for labour or other things,
>> >> is manipulated by a small clique of money people for their own narrow
>> >> advantage.
>>
>> >LMAO. So a small clique of people are capable of preventing me from
>> >switching employers if my work conditions become to heinous for to
>> >deal with? Thanks, I needed a laugh!
>>
>> >> > Employees who don't like their employment
>> >> >conditions are free to seek employment elsewhere.
>>
>> >> In practice, that is not usually possible.
>>
>> >> > Banding together
>>
>> >> Wake up there guy, why the hell do you think people have banded
>> >> together in tribes and countries all these millennia? Banding together
>> >> provides some protection against predators, be they animal or human.
>>
>> >Provision of a job is more like a service than it is predation,
>> >genius. Did your parents have any kids that lived?
>>
>> >> >and
>> >> >threatening to shut down a business because employees are unhappy with
>> >> >their pay rates is more along the lines of communism than capitalism,
>>
>> >> LOL, you probably cried when you heard that slavery has been
>> >> abolished.
>>
>> >Not in the least; there's a difference between slavery and employment,
>>
>> In the backward USA there really isn't that much difference. As a
>> matter of fact, wage slaves are cheaper than bought slaves.
>
>"backward USA?" LOL. We may be backward, but it's obvious we're light
>years ahead of you.

Sure, that explains why the USA is essentially bankrupt and the
American Empire has been in decline for some years.

>
>There's a major difference, earnings aside, genius, that being that
>the wage slave has the right to seek higher wages from another
>employer, or has the opportunity (if the business model supports it)
>for advancement within their current employment. Bought slaves never
>had such, genius.
>
>By the way, you might want to remember that the "backward USA" is
>responsible for the equipment you're using to communicate with, shit
>for brains.

Actually, most of the theory for that was done elsewhere. Americans
tend to be technicians, not theorists. The American educational system
is pathetic.

>
>Have fun with that!


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed May 20 15:15:13 EDT 2009
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.usa
Subject: Re: Unions are unconstitutional...
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On Wed, 13 May 2009 05:13:39 -0700 (PDT),
TedKennedyMurderedHisPregnantMistress.dwpj65@spamgourmet.com wrote:

>On May 13, 6:34 am, Johannes von Ebersdorf 
>wrote:
>> On Wed, 13 May 2009 06:09:44 -0400, Steve
>>
>>
>>
>>  wrote:
>> >On Tue, 12 May 2009 19:09:48 -0700, "Where's all the China Blue Food?"
>> > wrote:
>>
>> >>In article ,
>> >> Steve  wrote:
>>
>> >>> >I find it ludicrous that you are saying that CEOs making millions a
>> >>> >year for sitting on their asses have sole right to decide that workers
>> >>> >are "worth" only what they say they are.
>>
>> >>> What's ludicrous is dumbshit leftists thinking they should decide
>> >>> anything!   Dumbshit losers have invested nothing... NOTHING ...  in
>> >>> the company.  The only decision they are allowed is whether to
>> >>> continue working or quit.
>>
>> >>Most managers have invested nothing either.
>>
>> >However, they have been chosen by and are agents of the people who
>> >have invested....  
>>
>> The incompetents who managed American car companies are prime
>> examples.
>
>They certainly are; they allowed the unions to get into the business
>and strangle them to death, allowing the competition to run all over
>them in the process. ROTFLMAO.

Lots of other countries in the car business have unions and have
better working conditions, wages, and benefits than do American
workers, and those companies are not in trouble.

American car companies are in trouble because they produced
overweight, antiquated junk that can't be sold anywhere else, so when
the American market tanked, they were up the creek without a paddle,
but that was hardly the fault of the workers on the line.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed May 20 15:15:13 EDT 2009
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
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Subject: Re: Unions are unconstitutional...
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On Wed, 13 May 2009 05:14:58 -0700 (PDT),
TedKennedyMurderedHisPregnantMistress.dwpj65@spamgourmet.com wrote:

>On May 13, 6:37 am, Johannes von Ebersdorf 
>wrote:
>> On Tue, 12 May 2009 13:28:41 -0700 (PDT),
>>
>>
>>
>> TedKennedyMurderedHisPregnantMistress.dwp...@spamgourmet.com wrote:
>> >On May 12, 4:02 pm, "Where's all the China Blue Food?"
>> > wrote:
>> >> In article <8bf41c63-d8da-45a2-8dfe-c48b5c5ea...@h23g2000vbc.googlegroups.com>,
>>
>> >>  TedKennedyMurderedHisPregnantMistress.dwp...@spamgourmet.com wrote:
>> >> > On May 12, 9:57 am, "Where's all the China Blue Food?"
>> >> >  wrote:
>> >> > > In article <16ji05tdhd1eacr3c9o826rcp0e36r7...@4ax.com>,
>>
>> >> > >  Steve  wrote:
>> >> > > > This is funny, actually...    Employers do have the right to determine
>> >> > > > wages as they see fit because its their investment that being but at
>> >> > > > risk in the marketplace.  
>>
>> >> > > They have the right to offer whatever price they want to their suppliers.
>> >> > > Whether any supplier agrees is the supplier's right.
>>
>> >> > > > Outsourcing not only eliminates all the potential union nonsense, it
>> >> > > > eliminates  ***ALL** the garbage that goes along with hiring and
>> >> > > > firing people.  No more Social Security nonsense, no more employment
>> >> > > > records, no more discrimination threats....  
>>
>> >> > > It also elimenates consumers for your products. In fact, that's what
>> >> > > happened in
>> >> > > 2008. And we can see how well that works out for the employers
>>
>> >> > Doesn't matter, anyway; with Obama's tax increases for the job
>> >> > creators, I'm imagining he's motivating them to open their facilities
>> >> > outside of the U.S.
>>
>> >> Unless they move out of the US and renounce their citizenship, they will still
>> >> pay their taxes. That sort of takes of the fun out of rapacious greed.
>>
>> >Which, I assume, many will, particularly when labor and operational
>> >expenses become cheaper in other countries. You can see this mentality
>> >in the retail space; Wal-Mart is doing so well because their prices
>> >are typically lower; you don't think people will take their businesses
>> >elsewhere if it's cheaper? Why would you expect business owners to
>> >operate differently than consumers?
>>
>> It was heartwarming to see that Wal-Mart went bankrupt in Germany.
>> They just couldn't operate in an environment where workers actually
>> have some rights.
>>
>> All of Wal-Mart's stores were sold to German competitors at less than
>> 10¢ on the dollar.  :-)
>
>So, you think all of Wally-world's ex-German employees hit the ovens?

What are you babbling about?


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed May 20 15:15:14 EDT 2009
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
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Subject: Re: Unions are unconstitutional...
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On Wed, 13 May 2009 10:15:37 -0700 (PDT),
TedKennedyMurderedHisPregnantMistress.dwpj65@spamgourmet.com wrote:

>On May 13, 12:30 pm, "Lamont Cranston"
> wrote:
>> TedKennedyMurderedHisPregnantMistress.dwp...@spamgourmet.com
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> > On May 12, 9:57 am, "Where's all the China Blue Food?"
>> >  wrote:
>> > > In article <16ji05tdhd1eacr3c9o826rcp0e36r7...@4ax.com>,
>>
>> > > Steve  wrote:
>> > > > This is funny, actually... Employers do have the right
>> > > > to
>> > > > determine wages as they see fit because its their
>> > > > investment that
>> > > > being but at risk in the marketplace.
>>
>> > > They have the right to offer whatever price they want to
>> > > their
>> > > suppliers. Whether any supplier agrees is the supplier's
>> > > right.
>>
>> > > > Outsourcing not only eliminates all the potential
>> > > > union nonsense,
>> > > > it eliminates ***ALL** the garbage that goes along
>> > > > with hiring and
>> > > > firing people. No more Social Security nonsense, no
>> > > > more
>> > > > employment records, no more discrimination threats....
>>
>> > > It also elimenates consumers for your products. In fact,
>> > > that's
>> > > what happened in 2008. And we can see how well that
>> > > works out for
>> > > the employers
>>
>> > Doesn't matter, anyway; with Obama's tax increases for the
>> > job
>> > creators, I'm imagining he's motivating them to open their
>> > facilities
>> > outside of the U.S.
>>
>> Jobs are created by consumers.  Obama has cut the taxes of
>> most consumers.
>
>No, they are not created by consumers. They are created by employers
>who are seeking to meet consumer demand in their market.
>
>By the way, if jobs were created by consumers, then jobs would be
>destroyed by consumers. As evidenced by the struggles the big three
>automakers are having, the customer has told them that they no longer
>want U.A.W. produced crap.

It isn't the UAW that determines what is manufactured or sold by
American car companies. The UAW is not to blame for the current
situation in the USA.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed May 20 15:15:14 EDT 2009
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.usa
Subject: Re: Unions are unconstitutional...
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On Wed, 13 May 2009 08:54:06 -0400, Steve
 wrote:

>On Wed, 13 May 2009 05:34:16 -0700 (PDT),
>TedKennedyMurderedHisPregnantMistress.dwpj65@spamgourmet.com wrote:
>
>>On May 13, 6:09 am, Steve  wrote:
>>> On Tue, 12 May 2009 19:09:53 -0700, "Where's all the China Blue Food?"
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  wrote:
>>> >In article ,
>>> > Steve  wrote:
>>>
>>> >> On Tue, 12 May 2009 16:31:33 -0700, "Where's all the China Blue Food?"
>>> >>  wrote:
>>>
>>> >> >In article ,
>>> >> > Steve  wrote:
>>>
>>> >> >> Big difference is that Toyota doesn't pay thousands of laid off
>>> >> >> workers and retired people the same wages they earned when actually
>>> >> >> being productive.
>>>
>>> >> >I guess those companies shouldn't have made that deal to increase
>>> >> >productivity.
>>> >> >Then they couldn't have afforded layoffs or have higher profits to waste on
>>> >> >worthless managers.
>>>
>>> >> Actually, Ford, GM and Chrysler should have resisted the unions
>>> >> demands to pay  laid off workers and retired people the same wages
>>> >> they earned when actually being productive.
>>>
>>> >And then they would not have had the productivity increases they did.
>>>
>>> Overpaying retirees and paying aid off workers does not make
>>> productivity increases.
>>
>>It does in the mind set of those stupid enough to believe unions are
>>helping the big three.
>>
>>> >They made the deal because they wanted workers to improve productivity which
>>> >would normally be used to lay off workers. Workers were being asked to cut their
>>> >own throats. Instead they made the deal to increase productivity if workers got
>>> >a share of the benefits. Productivity improved. Then management pissed away the
>>> >gains, so they want to blame the people who made them profitable.
>>>
>>> Bullshit, they made the "deal" to keep from being struck.  
>>
>>Amazing how the union proponents miss that little piece of extortion,
>>isn't it?
>
>One of the UAW's tricks was to target just one of the big three at a
>time...   They could combine the power of the union members of all
>three companies, while the companies could not pool their resources. 

Large firms always pool their resources. It is an old boy's network.
The 2% of the general public that owns the USA is a closed clique.
Individual Americans don't have a snowball's chance in hell against
the financial power of the 2% club.

>
>>> >> Doesn't matter to me.  I drive a Toyota 4wd Pickup now.  I doubt I'll
>>>
>>> >So you don't mind government subsidises.
>>>
>>>  That's only one reason why I'll never buy a UAW made vehicle
>>> ever again.
>>
>>The market's spoken, and yet the stupid still believe they can prop up
>>the unions. LMOA.


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On Wed, 13 May 2009 06:09:34 -0700 (PDT),
TedKennedyMurderedHisPregnantMistress.dwpj65@spamgourmet.com wrote:

>On May 13, 8:54 am, Steve  wrote:
>> On Wed, 13 May 2009 05:34:16 -0700 (PDT),
>>
>>
>>
>> TedKennedyMurderedHisPregnantMistress.dwp...@spamgourmet.com wrote:
>> >On May 13, 6:09 am, Steve  wrote:
>> >> On Tue, 12 May 2009 19:09:53 -0700, "Where's all the China Blue Food?"
>>
>> >>  wrote:
>> >> >In article ,
>> >> > Steve  wrote:
>>
>> >> >> On Tue, 12 May 2009 16:31:33 -0700, "Where's all the China Blue Food?"
>> >> >>  wrote:
>>
>> >> >> >In article ,
>> >> >> > Steve  wrote:
>>
>> >> >> >> Big difference is that Toyota doesn't pay thousands of laid off
>> >> >> >> workers and retired people the same wages they earned when actually
>> >> >> >> being productive.
>>
>> >> >> >I guess those companies shouldn't have made that deal to increase
>> >> >> >productivity.
>> >> >> >Then they couldn't have afforded layoffs or have higher profits to waste on
>> >> >> >worthless managers.
>>
>> >> >> Actually, Ford, GM and Chrysler should have resisted the unions
>> >> >> demands to pay  laid off workers and retired people the same wages
>> >> >> they earned when actually being productive.
>>
>> >> >And then they would not have had the productivity increases they did.
>>
>> >> Overpaying retirees and paying aid off workers does not make
>> >> productivity increases.
>>
>> >It does in the mind set of those stupid enough to believe unions are
>> >helping the big three.
>>
>> >> >They made the deal because they wanted workers to improve productivity which
>> >> >would normally be used to lay off workers. Workers were being asked to cut their
>> >> >own throats. Instead they made the deal to increase productivity if workers got
>> >> >a share of the benefits. Productivity improved. Then management pissed away the
>> >> >gains, so they want to blame the people who made them profitable.
>>
>> >> Bullshit, they made the "deal" to keep from being struck.  
>>
>> >Amazing how the union proponents miss that little piece of extortion,
>> >isn't it?
>>
>> One of the UAW's tricks was to target just one of the big three at a
>> time...   They could combine the power of the union members of all
>> three companies, while the companies could not pool their resources.
>
>I remember those days.
>
>So, after the collapse of the usual UAW haunts, do you think the
>geniuses will start picketing Toyota, Nissan, Honda, and BMW? :-D
>
>
BMW has union representatives on the board of directors, as have all
major German firms. There are few strikes and workers don't get
short-changed under that system.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed May 20 15:15:15 EDT 2009
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.usa
Subject: Re: Unions are unconstitutional...
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Wed, 13 May 2009 09:13:53 -0400, Steve
 wrote:

>On Wed, 13 May 2009 06:09:34 -0700 (PDT),
>TedKennedyMurderedHisPregnantMistress.dwpj65@spamgourmet.com wrote:
>
>>On May 13, 8:54 am, Steve  wrote:
>>> On Wed, 13 May 2009 05:34:16 -0700 (PDT),
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> TedKennedyMurderedHisPregnantMistress.dwp...@spamgourmet.com wrote:
>>> >On May 13, 6:09 am, Steve  wrote:
>>> >> On Tue, 12 May 2009 19:09:53 -0700, "Where's all the China Blue Food?"
>>>
>>> >>  wrote:
>>> >> >In article ,
>>> >> > Steve  wrote:
>>>
>>> >> >> On Tue, 12 May 2009 16:31:33 -0700, "Where's all the China Blue Food?"
>>> >> >>  wrote:
>>>
>>> >> >> >In article ,
>>> >> >> > Steve  wrote:
>>>
>>> >> >> >> Big difference is that Toyota doesn't pay thousands of laid off
>>> >> >> >> workers and retired people the same wages they earned when actually
>>> >> >> >> being productive.
>>>
>>> >> >> >I guess those companies shouldn't have made that deal to increase
>>> >> >> >productivity.
>>> >> >> >Then they couldn't have afforded layoffs or have higher profits to waste on
>>> >> >> >worthless managers.
>>>
>>> >> >> Actually, Ford, GM and Chrysler should have resisted the unions
>>> >> >> demands to pay  laid off workers and retired people the same wages
>>> >> >> they earned when actually being productive.
>>>
>>> >> >And then they would not have had the productivity increases they did.
>>>
>>> >> Overpaying retirees and paying aid off workers does not make
>>> >> productivity increases.
>>>
>>> >It does in the mind set of those stupid enough to believe unions are
>>> >helping the big three.
>>>
>>> >> >They made the deal because they wanted workers to improve productivity which
>>> >> >would normally be used to lay off workers. Workers were being asked to cut their
>>> >> >own throats. Instead they made the deal to increase productivity if workers got
>>> >> >a share of the benefits. Productivity improved. Then management pissed away the
>>> >> >gains, so they want to blame the people who made them profitable.
>>>
>>> >> Bullshit, they made the "deal" to keep from being struck.  
>>>
>>> >Amazing how the union proponents miss that little piece of extortion,
>>> >isn't it?
>>>
>>> One of the UAW's tricks was to target just one of the big three at a
>>> time...   They could combine the power of the union members of all
>>> three companies, while the companies could not pool their resources.
>>
>>I remember those days.
>>
>>So, after the collapse of the usual UAW haunts, do you think the
>>geniuses will start picketing Toyota, Nissan, Honda, and BMW? :-D
>>
>>
> 
>Not too likely since it's pretty easy for them to pack up and move to
>Mexico.

Why would German and Japanese manufacturers move to Mexico where there
is little in the way of skilled work to operate a car plant?

Daimler-Benz has plants in South America, but they are there to supply
the local market, not to send stuff back to Germany.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed May 20 15:15:16 EDT 2009
Article: 2497283 of soc.culture.usa
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.usa
Subject: Re: Unions are unconstitutional...
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Wed, 13 May 2009 04:56:23 -0700 (PDT),
TedKennedyMurderedHisPregnantMistress.dwpj65@spamgourmet.com wrote:

>On May 12, 7:57 pm, "4976 Dead, 109 since 1/20/09"
> wrote:
>> On Tue, 12 May 2009 15:17:09 -0700 (PDT),
>>
>> TedKennedyMurderedHisPregnantMistress.dwp...@spamgourmet.com wrote:
>>
>> >CHA-CHING! We've got a winner! Only inept morons who can't compete in
>> >the marketplace need crap like unions to be "prosperous."
>>
>> >What's amazing is that I've noticed a reasonable percentage of the
>> >kids entering the work force (at least at my current employer) these
>> >days have those same attitudes. Always interesting to see the look of
>> >bewilderment on their faces when they get canned.
>>
>> Ah.  You're one of THOSE.
>>
>> Well, not point on wasting any further time on you.  You hate people,
>> and treat them like dirt.  
>
>No, I believe that people should be paid based on their merit

That is pretty subjective, and usually boils down to who is the most
proficient arse-kisser rather than who does the best work.

Your ideas have never worked anywhere, and they are not likely to
start working.

>, unlike
>you, who believe people should be paid merely because they exist.
>That's about the most retarded business model I've ever heard, and it
>certainly explains why a lot of manufacturer has been going overseas
>over the last two decades. With this type of retarded mindset in
>charge, I would not be surprised in the least if the pace accelerates;
>it's obvious the U.S.A. no longer adequately educates it's work force.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed May 20 15:15:16 EDT 2009
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.usa
Subject: Re: Unions are unconstitutional...
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On Wed, 13 May 2009 05:06:55 -0700 (PDT),
TedKennedyMurderedHisPregnantMistress.dwpj65@spamgourmet.com wrote:

>On May 13, 6:43 am, Johannes von Ebersdorf 
>wrote:
>> On Tue, 12 May 2009 11:02:12 -0700 (PDT),
>>
>>
>>
>> TedKennedyMurderedHisPregnantMistress.dwp...@spamgourmet.com wrote:
>> >On May 12, 9:03 am, Johannes von Ebersdorf 
>> >wrote:
>> >> On Mon, 11 May 2009 16:59:01 -0400, B1ackwater  wrote:
>> >> >No, no, no ......
>>
>> >> >Unions WILL be unconstitutional ... the minute they
>> >> >cease serving Obamas interests.
>>
>> >> It is the Busheviks that were/are opposed to rights for workers.
>>
>> >> In typical "newspeak", Right-to-Work states are states in which
>> >> workers essentially have no rights. Only the parasite class has
>> >> rights.
>>
>> >ROTFLMAO. "Parasite" class? Exactly WHAT jobs have unions created?
>>
>> Anything that exists in the USA has been created by employees and
>> their representatives, not by "owners" or "managers".
>>
>> Owners now, and in centuries past, have gotten free rides on the backs
>> of the people they exploit.
>
>ROTFLMAO. What business do you own that allows you to make the
>statement that "Owners have gotten a free ride?"

The 2% club that owns the USA, has never done any work. They are the
idle rich that spend their time at vacation homes, yachts, and trips
to exotic locations.

Anthing that exists, has been created by their employees.

That fact that Bill Gates can be as wealthy as he is, suggests that
either he seriously overcharged for his products, underpaid his
employees, or both. Bill himself never created much of anything.

>
>With stupidity like yours, jobs NEED to be off shored.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed May 20 15:15:16 EDT 2009
Article: 2497828 of soc.culture.usa
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.usa
Subject: Re: Unions are unconstitutional...
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Thu, 14 May 2009 09:35:05 -0700 (PDT),
TedKennedyMurderedHisPregnantMistress.dwpj65@spamgourmet.com wrote:

>On May 14, 12:08 pm, Johannes von Ebersdorf 
>wrote:
>> On Wed, 13 May 2009 05:12:20 -0700 (PDT),
>>
>>
>>
>> TedKennedyMurderedHisPregnantMistress.dwp...@spamgourmet.com wrote:
>> >On May 13, 6:31 am, Johannes von Ebersdorf 
>> >wrote:
>> >> On Tue, 12 May 2009 08:32:22 -0700 (PDT),
>>
>> >> TedKennedyMurderedHisPregnantMistress.dwp...@spamgourmet.com wrote:
>> >> >On May 12, 8:37 am, Johannes von Ebersdorf 
>> >> >wrote:
>> >> >> On Mon, 11 May 2009 12:23:40 -0700 (PDT),
>>
>> >> >> TedKennedyMurderedHisPregnantMistress.dwp...@spamgourmet.com wrote:
>> >> >> >On May 11, 3:05 pm, "4976 Dead, 109 since 1/20/09"
>> >> >> > wrote:
>> >> >> >> On Mon, 11 May 2009 14:41:47 -0400, WangoTango
>>
>> >> >> >>  wrote:
>> >> >> >> >In article ,
>> >> >> >> >ze...@finestplanet.com says...
>> >> >> >> >> On Mon, 11 May 2009 11:11:12 -0400, WangoTango
>> >> >> >> >>  wrote:
>>
>> >> >> >> >> >In article ,
>> >> >> >> >> >ze...@finestplanet.com says...
>> >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, 8 May 2009 10:48:33 -0400, WangoTango
>> >> >> >> >> >>  wrote:
>>
>> >> >> >> >> >> >In article ,
>> >> >> >> >> >> >chine.b...@yahoo.com says...
>> >> >> >> >> >> >> In article ,
>> >> >> >> >> >> >>  WangoTango  wrote:
>>
>> >> >> >> >> >> >> > In article ,
>> >> >> >> >> >> >> > chine.b...@yahoo.com says...
>> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > In article ,
>> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >  WangoTango  wrote:
>>
>> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > They are expected to know what their requirements are when they walk in
>> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > and present them to the prospective employer.  In other words they
>> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > negotiate their own deal just like most people do all the time.  Just
>> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > like I have done on EVERY job I have ever taken since I was 15 years
>> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > old.
>> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > What is so difficult about that?
>>
>> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > Some people choose to be different from you.
>>
>> >> >> >> >> >> >> > Yep, but that is THEIR choice.
>> >> >> >> >> >> >> > Unions attempt to remove that choice, or have you missed the point here?
>>
>> >> >> >> >> >> >> Everyone in this game attempts to restrict choices to their favour.
>>
>> >> >> >> >> >> >Yep, no skill to low skill people like unions because it gives them a
>> >> >> >> >> >> >prefab employment opportunity.
>> >> >> >> >> >> >People that have a real skill to offer know that THEY are best suited to
>> >> >> >> >> >> >market that skill.
>>
>> >> >> >> >> >> Here's comes the class warfare.  Never fails
>>
>> >> >> >> >> >> Only the elite deserve a decent wage.
>> >> >> >> >> >Not what I said.
>>
>> >> >> >> >> Just what you meant.
>> >> >> >> >If that's what makes you feel better.
>>
>> >> >> >> >> >> >At the end of the day, unions are in business to stay in business and
>> >> >> >> >> >> >the workers getting some kind of 'deal' is secondary.
>>
>> >> >> >> >> >> So why do union employees get much better wages and benefits?
>> >> >> >> >> >Around here, they don't.
>>
>> >> >> >> >> Oh, I imagine any place you run is a real shit hole.
>> >> >> >> >A bit short on imagination, I guess.
>>
>> >> >> >> >> >> >In a free society each should be allowed to make that choice as they see
>> >> >> >> >> >> >fit and unions do not want workers to have that option.
>>
>> >> >> >> >> >> If the workers elect to be in a union, you need to respect that.
>>
>> >> >> >> >> >Yep, and as a business owner, I can fire their asses and they should
>> >> >> >> >> >respect that.
>>
>> >> >> >> >> Not if you signed an agreement, you don't.
>>
>> >> >> >> >Well, that's true, a contract is a contract, if entered into freely by
>> >> >> >> >the parties involved, but that's not what you, and your ilk, want.  You
>> >> >> >> >want to force yourselves and your demands upon a company and the
>> >> >> >> >workers.  You have so much as admitted that in other posts.
>>
>> >> >> >> Oh, cry me a river, bubbles.  All I'm proposing is leveling the
>> >> >> >> playing field.  You types run around with a totally spurious sense
>> >> >> >> that you are ENTITLED to treat labor as overhead, rather than as an
>> >> >> >> iingregal asset in your business, and that you have the right to
>> >> >> >> determine wages as you see fit.
>>
>> >> >> >> In a consumer society, that's suicidal.  That's your own customer base
>> >> >> >> you're undermining.
>>
>> >> >> >Damned, just when I think you couldn't get any dumber, you go and
>> >> >> >prove me wrong.
>>
>> >> >> >It's called "free market."
>>
>> >> >> There is no such thing. The market, be it for labour or other things,
>> >> >> is manipulated by a small clique of money people for their own narrow
>> >> >> advantage.
>>
>> >> >LMAO. So a small clique of people are capable of preventing me from
>> >> >switching employers if my work conditions become to heinous for to
>> >> >deal with? Thanks, I needed a laugh!
>>
>> >> >> > Employees who don't like their employment
>> >> >> >conditions are free to seek employment elsewhere.
>>
>> >> >> In practice, that is not usually possible.
>>
>> >> >> > Banding together
>>
>> >> >> Wake up there guy, why the hell do you think people have banded
>> >> >> together in tribes and countries all these millennia? Banding together
>> >> >> provides some protection against predators, be they animal or human.
>>
>> >> >Provision of a job is more like a service than it is predation,
>> >> >genius. Did your parents have any kids that lived?
>>
>> >> >> >and
>> >> >> >threatening to shut down a business because employees are unhappy with
>> >> >> >their pay rates is more along the lines of communism than capitalism,
>>
>> >> >> LOL, you probably cried when you heard that slavery has been
>> >> >> abolished.
>>
>> >> >Not in the least; there's a difference between slavery and employment,
>>
>> >> In the backward USA there really isn't that much difference. As a
>> >> matter of fact, wage slaves are cheaper than bought slaves.
>>
>> >"backward USA?" LOL. We may be backward, but it's obvious we're light
>> >years ahead of you.
>>
>> Sure, that explains why the USA is essentially bankrupt and the
>> American Empire has been in decline for some years.
>>
>>
>>
>> >There's a major difference, earnings aside, genius, that being that
>> >the wage slave has the right to seek higher wages from another
>> >employer, or has the opportunity (if the business model supports it)
>> >for advancement within their current employment. Bought slaves never
>> >had such, genius.
>>
>> >By the way, you might want to remember that the "backward USA" is
>> >responsible for the equipment you're using to communicate with, shit
>> >for brains.
>>
>> Actually, most of the theory for that was done elsewhere. Americans
>> tend to be technicians, not theorists. The American educational system
>> is pathetic.
>
>Theory's great, but that's just what it is: theory.

Theories, model-building, IS science. The rest is application, usually
known as engineering. The ideas come first, then the application.

>
>But you are correct about the educational system.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed May 20 15:15:17 EDT 2009
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
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Subject: Re: Unions are unconstitutional...
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On Thu, 14 May 2009 09:28:19 -0700 (PDT),
TedKennedyMurderedHisPregnantMistress.dwpj65@spamgourmet.com wrote:

>On May 14, 12:16 pm, Johannes von Ebersdorf 
>wrote:
>> On Wed, 13 May 2009 10:15:37 -0700 (PDT),
>>
>>
>>
>> TedKennedyMurderedHisPregnantMistress.dwp...@spamgourmet.com wrote:
>> >On May 13, 12:30 pm, "Lamont Cranston"
>> > wrote:
>> >> TedKennedyMurderedHisPregnantMistress.dwp...@spamgourmet.com
>> >> wrote:
>>
>> >> > On May 12, 9:57 am, "Where's all the China Blue Food?"
>> >> >  wrote:
>> >> > > In article <16ji05tdhd1eacr3c9o826rcp0e36r7...@4ax.com>,
>>
>> >> > > Steve  wrote:
>> >> > > > This is funny, actually... Employers do have the right
>> >> > > > to
>> >> > > > determine wages as they see fit because its their
>> >> > > > investment that
>> >> > > > being but at risk in the marketplace.
>>
>> >> > > They have the right to offer whatever price they want to
>> >> > > their
>> >> > > suppliers. Whether any supplier agrees is the supplier's
>> >> > > right.
>>
>> >> > > > Outsourcing not only eliminates all the potential
>> >> > > > union nonsense,
>> >> > > > it eliminates ***ALL** the garbage that goes along
>> >> > > > with hiring and
>> >> > > > firing people. No more Social Security nonsense, no
>> >> > > > more
>> >> > > > employment records, no more discrimination threats....
>>
>> >> > > It also elimenates consumers for your products. In fact,
>> >> > > that's
>> >> > > what happened in 2008. And we can see how well that
>> >> > > works out for
>> >> > > the employers
>>
>> >> > Doesn't matter, anyway; with Obama's tax increases for the
>> >> > job
>> >> > creators, I'm imagining he's motivating them to open their
>> >> > facilities
>> >> > outside of the U.S.
>>
>> >> Jobs are created by consumers.  Obama has cut the taxes of
>> >> most consumers.
>>
>> >No, they are not created by consumers. They are created by employers
>> >who are seeking to meet consumer demand in their market.
>>
>> >By the way, if jobs were created by consumers, then jobs would be
>> >destroyed by consumers. As evidenced by the struggles the big three
>> >automakers are having, the customer has told them that they no longer
>> >want U.A.W. produced crap.
>>
>> It isn't the UAW that determines what is manufactured or sold by
>> American car companies. The UAW is not to blame for the current
>> situation in the USA.
>
>The UAW does, however, engage in extortion and price fixing, which
>management is unable to circumvent.

Wage negotiations are not extortion, any more than any other
negotiations are necessarily extortion.

>
>Furthermore, the UAW members I have worked with in the past were all
>extremely apathetic regarding their jobs and their products, which
>bred into me the same apathy regarding their jobs and their products.

That cannot really be apathetic when they are a line worker. The line
continues relentlessly, and if their part of the work is consistently
undone or done improperly, they tend to get dismissed.

>
>Management's biggest fault at the big three was not shutting down
>unionized manufacturering facilities and reopening them in "right to
>work states", effectively removing this unneccessary complication to
>operations.

Most civilized countries have laws against that sort of manipulation.
The proper response of government would be to prohibit the sale of the
vehicles anywhere BUT the so-called right-to-work = slavery states.

>
>So, the big three's biggest problems stem from both the labor and
>management, albeit from different sides of the same issue. The fact
>that neither party was able to provide a solution, or a quality
>product for that matter, means that I will NEVER purchase another new
>vehicle from GM, Ford, or Chrysler. Evidently a fair number share my
>views, as evidenced by the fact that the imports are doing much better
>than the domestic automobile manufacturers.

The imports are smaller vehicles with smaller profit margins. Making
automotive dinosaurs was profitable while the market lasted. American
companies simply succumbed to corporate greed. American
long-range-planning tends to be myopic, at most two or three years
into the future.

>
>It won't be any loss to see any of the big three fail; they have
>demonstrated that the UAW is a flaw in the equation.

I guess that the USA is out of the automobile business then.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed May 20 15:15:18 EDT 2009
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On Thu, 14 May 2009 14:25:26 -0700 (PDT),
TedKennedyMurderedHisPregnantMistress.dwpj65@spamgourmet.com wrote:

>On May 14, 12:22 pm, Johannes von Ebersdorf 
>wrote:
>> On Wed, 13 May 2009 09:13:53 -0400, Steve
>>
>>
>>
>>  wrote:
>> >On Wed, 13 May 2009 06:09:34 -0700 (PDT),
>> >TedKennedyMurderedHisPregnantMistress.dwp...@spamgourmet.com wrote:
>>
>> >>On May 13, 8:54 am, Steve  wrote:
>> >>> On Wed, 13 May 2009 05:34:16 -0700 (PDT),
>>
>> >>> TedKennedyMurderedHisPregnantMistress.dwp...@spamgourmet.com wrote:
>> >>> >On May 13, 6:09 am, Steve  wrote:
>> >>> >> On Tue, 12 May 2009 19:09:53 -0700, "Where's all the China Blue Food?"
>>
>> >>> >>  wrote:
>> >>> >> >In article ,
>> >>> >> > Steve  wrote:
>>
>> >>> >> >> On Tue, 12 May 2009 16:31:33 -0700, "Where's all the China Blue Food?"
>> >>> >> >>  wrote:
>>
>> >>> >> >> >In article ,
>> >>> >> >> > Steve  wrote:
>>
>> >>> >> >> >> Big difference is that Toyota doesn't pay thousands of laid off
>> >>> >> >> >> workers and retired people the same wages they earned when actually
>> >>> >> >> >> being productive.
>>
>> >>> >> >> >I guess those companies shouldn't have made that deal to increase
>> >>> >> >> >productivity.
>> >>> >> >> >Then they couldn't have afforded layoffs or have higher profits to waste on
>> >>> >> >> >worthless managers.
>>
>> >>> >> >> Actually, Ford, GM and Chrysler should have resisted the unions
>> >>> >> >> demands to pay  laid off workers and retired people the same wages
>> >>> >> >> they earned when actually being productive.
>>
>> >>> >> >And then they would not have had the productivity increases they did.
>>
>> >>> >> Overpaying retirees and paying aid off workers does not make
>> >>> >> productivity increases.
>>
>> >>> >It does in the mind set of those stupid enough to believe unions are
>> >>> >helping the big three.
>>
>> >>> >> >They made the deal because they wanted workers to improve productivity which
>> >>> >> >would normally be used to lay off workers. Workers were being asked to cut their
>> >>> >> >own throats. Instead they made the deal to increase productivity if workers got
>> >>> >> >a share of the benefits. Productivity improved. Then management pissed away the
>> >>> >> >gains, so they want to blame the people who made them profitable.
>>
>> >>> >> Bullshit, they made the "deal" to keep from being struck.  
>>
>> >>> >Amazing how the union proponents miss that little piece of extortion,
>> >>> >isn't it?
>>
>> >>> One of the UAW's tricks was to target just one of the big three at a
>> >>> time...   They could combine the power of the union members of all
>> >>> three companies, while the companies could not pool their resources.
>>
>> >>I remember those days.
>>
>> >>So, after the collapse of the usual UAW haunts, do you think the
>> >>geniuses will start picketing Toyota, Nissan, Honda, and BMW? :-D
>>
>> >Not too likely since it's pretty easy for them to pack up and move to
>> >Mexico.
>>
>> Why would German and Japanese manufacturers move to Mexico where there
>> is little in the way of skilled work to operate a car plant?
>
>A local electronic component manufacturer, with most of it's customers
>located in the US, has been moving their production line piece by
>piece to Mexico over the course of the last decade or so, to the point
>that only the finishing part of the line remains. Yes, they do a
>majority of the production in mexico, ship the nearly finished product
>back to the states for finishing, and then out to the customers. This
>is done for two reasons: reduction in the labor required to produce
>the part, and they can still pass the product off as "made in America"
>even thought the majority of the product is fabricated south of the
>border. It's cheaper to ship the stuff back and forth than it is to
>produce the product entirely within the US, due to the imbalance of
>the labor rate.

That is the problem with NAFTA, an agreement to benefit the plant
owners, not the general public of any of the three countries that are
part of this agreement.

My personal opinion is that if a Canadian company moves its operation
to Mexico to avoid Canadian environmental laws, tax structure, or
worker's rights legislation, then their products should be blocked at
the Canadian border. The Canadian market should be permanently lost to
such businesses. As a matter of fact, any product coming from a
country with poor environmental legislation should be blocked at the
Canadian border. It is not the kind of system we want to support.


>
>> Daimler-Benz has plants in South America, but they are there to supply
>> the local market, not to send stuff back to Germany.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed May 20 15:15:18 EDT 2009
Article: 2497838 of soc.culture.usa
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.usa
Subject: Re: Unions are unconstitutional...
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Thu, 14 May 2009 09:32:48 -0700 (PDT),
TedKennedyMurderedHisPregnantMistress.dwpj65@spamgourmet.com wrote:

>On May 14, 12:20 pm, Johannes von Ebersdorf 
>wrote:
>> On Wed, 13 May 2009 06:09:34 -0700 (PDT),
>>
>>
>>
>> TedKennedyMurderedHisPregnantMistress.dwp...@spamgourmet.com wrote:
>> >On May 13, 8:54 am, Steve  wrote:
>> >> On Wed, 13 May 2009 05:34:16 -0700 (PDT),
>>
>> >> TedKennedyMurderedHisPregnantMistress.dwp...@spamgourmet.com wrote:
>> >> >On May 13, 6:09 am, Steve  wrote:
>> >> >> On Tue, 12 May 2009 19:09:53 -0700, "Where's all the China Blue Food?"
>>
>> >> >>  wrote:
>> >> >> >In article ,
>> >> >> > Steve  wrote:
>>
>> >> >> >> On Tue, 12 May 2009 16:31:33 -0700, "Where's all the China Blue Food?"
>> >> >> >>  wrote:
>>
>> >> >> >> >In article ,
>> >> >> >> > Steve  wrote:
>>
>> >> >> >> >> Big difference is that Toyota doesn't pay thousands of laid off
>> >> >> >> >> workers and retired people the same wages they earned when actually
>> >> >> >> >> being productive.
>>
>> >> >> >> >I guess those companies shouldn't have made that deal to increase
>> >> >> >> >productivity.
>> >> >> >> >Then they couldn't have afforded layoffs or have higher profits to waste on
>> >> >> >> >worthless managers.
>>
>> >> >> >> Actually, Ford, GM and Chrysler should have resisted the unions
>> >> >> >> demands to pay  laid off workers and retired people the same wages
>> >> >> >> they earned when actually being productive.
>>
>> >> >> >And then they would not have had the productivity increases they did.
>>
>> >> >> Overpaying retirees and paying aid off workers does not make
>> >> >> productivity increases.
>>
>> >> >It does in the mind set of those stupid enough to believe unions are
>> >> >helping the big three.
>>
>> >> >> >They made the deal because they wanted workers to improve productivity which
>> >> >> >would normally be used to lay off workers. Workers were being asked to cut their
>> >> >> >own throats. Instead they made the deal to increase productivity if workers got
>> >> >> >a share of the benefits. Productivity improved. Then management pissed away the
>> >> >> >gains, so they want to blame the people who made them profitable.
>>
>> >> >> Bullshit, they made the "deal" to keep from being struck.  
>>
>> >> >Amazing how the union proponents miss that little piece of extortion,
>> >> >isn't it?
>>
>> >> One of the UAW's tricks was to target just one of the big three at a
>> >> time...   They could combine the power of the union members of all
>> >> three companies, while the companies could not pool their resources.
>>
>> >I remember those days.
>>
>> >So, after the collapse of the usual UAW haunts, do you think the
>> >geniuses will start picketing Toyota, Nissan, Honda, and BMW? :-D
>>
>> BMW has union representatives on the board of directors, as have all
>> major German firms. There are few strikes and workers don't get
>> short-changed under that system.
>
>BMW also has a far different clientele than your "average" automobile
>manufacturer.

Sure, BMW and Daimler-Benz supply the upscale market, but the union
legislation applies to ALL German companies with more than 100
employees. The big chemical concerns, BASF, Höchst, and Bayer all have
significant union representation on their boards of directors. The
union is then aware of what the company can reasonably carry, and
negotiations are not adversarial slugging festivals like in England
and the USA.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed May 20 15:15:18 EDT 2009
Article: 2497841 of soc.culture.usa
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.usa
Subject: Re: Unions are unconstitutional...
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On Thu, 14 May 2009 14:51:40 -0700 (PDT),
TedKennedyMurderedHisPregnantMistress.dwpj65@spamgourmet.com wrote:

>On May 14, 12:26 pm, Johannes von Ebersdorf 
>wrote:
>> On Wed, 13 May 2009 04:56:23 -0700 (PDT),
>>
>>
>>
>> TedKennedyMurderedHisPregnantMistress.dwp...@spamgourmet.com wrote:
>> >On May 12, 7:57 pm, "4976 Dead, 109 since 1/20/09"
>> > wrote:
>> >> On Tue, 12 May 2009 15:17:09 -0700 (PDT),
>>
>> >> TedKennedyMurderedHisPregnantMistress.dwp...@spamgourmet.com wrote:
>>
>> >> >CHA-CHING! We've got a winner! Only inept morons who can't compete in
>> >> >the marketplace need crap like unions to be "prosperous."
>>
>> >> >What's amazing is that I've noticed a reasonable percentage of the
>> >> >kids entering the work force (at least at my current employer) these
>> >> >days have those same attitudes. Always interesting to see the look of
>> >> >bewilderment on their faces when they get canned.
>>
>> >> Ah.  You're one of THOSE.
>>
>> >> Well, not point on wasting any further time on you.  You hate people,
>> >> and treat them like dirt.  
>>
>> >No, I believe that people should be paid based on their merit
>>
>> That is pretty subjective, and usually boils down to who is the most
>> proficient arse-kisser rather than who does the best work.
>
>Perhaps in the environments you've worked. In those where I've worked,
>my pay increases have been due to efficiency and (in later jobs)
>innovation on the job. Indeed, my current manager, as well as the
>department's director, have stated that I get the most difficult tasks
>because no one else on our staff can do them. And I'm no arse-kisser;
>if anything, I'm somewhat abrasive towards my manager regarding his
>decisions at times, which he seems to appreciate because we do work
>out better solutions due to the fact that I'm not just saying "yes
>sir", but instead I'm saying "Well, that would work, but if we do it
>this way, we also get these benefits....."

I'm happy for you, since the King surrounded by nothing but yes-men
tends to make poor decisions.

It depends on the nature of the business. If there is a countable or
measurable output, merit pay might work, but it is sometimes very
difficult to come up with criteria that actually measure "merit" as
opposed to simply moving in the right circles and having the right
friends.

>
>> Your ideas have never worked anywhere, and they are not likely to
>> start working.
>
>Certainly not in a unionized environment, which is why I'm glad I'm
>not in one.

In the ideal environment, unions wouldn't be necessary, but in
exploitive environments like the USA they are essential. Owners tend
to abuse people if they figure they can get away with it. In the ideal
state, there would never be laws against rape or bank-robbery because
nobody would do such a thing, but in the real world such laws are
necessities. In the real world, SOMEBODY has to speak for workers, and
it cannot be government, since those have generally been in the
pockets of the money people for centuries. Your belief that owners are
automatically decent people is naive.

>
>> >, unlike
>> >you, who believe people should be paid merely because they exist.
>> >That's about the most retarded business model I've ever heard, and it
>> >certainly explains why a lot of manufacturer has been going overseas
>> >over the last two decades. With this type of retarded mindset in
>> >charge, I would not be surprised in the least if the pace accelerates;
>> >it's obvious the U.S.A. no longer adequately educates it's work force.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed May 20 15:15:19 EDT 2009
Article: 2497844 of soc.culture.usa
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.usa
Subject: Re: Unions are unconstitutional...
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On Thu, 14 May 2009 14:55:39 -0700 (PDT),
TedKennedyMurderedHisPregnantMistress.dwpj65@spamgourmet.com wrote:

>On May 14, 12:29 pm, Johannes von Ebersdorf 
>wrote:
>> On Wed, 13 May 2009 05:06:55 -0700 (PDT),
>>
>>
>>
>> TedKennedyMurderedHisPregnantMistress.dwp...@spamgourmet.com wrote:
>> >On May 13, 6:43 am, Johannes von Ebersdorf 
>> >wrote:
>> >> On Tue, 12 May 2009 11:02:12 -0700 (PDT),
>>
>> >> TedKennedyMurderedHisPregnantMistress.dwp...@spamgourmet.com wrote:
>> >> >On May 12, 9:03 am, Johannes von Ebersdorf 
>> >> >wrote:
>> >> >> On Mon, 11 May 2009 16:59:01 -0400, B1ackwater  wrote:
>> >> >> >No, no, no ......
>>
>> >> >> >Unions WILL be unconstitutional ... the minute they
>> >> >> >cease serving Obamas interests.
>>
>> >> >> It is the Busheviks that were/are opposed to rights for workers.
>>
>> >> >> In typical "newspeak", Right-to-Work states are states in which
>> >> >> workers essentially have no rights. Only the parasite class has
>> >> >> rights.
>>
>> >> >ROTFLMAO. "Parasite" class? Exactly WHAT jobs have unions created?
>>
>> >> Anything that exists in the USA has been created by employees and
>> >> their representatives, not by "owners" or "managers".
>>
>> >> Owners now, and in centuries past, have gotten free rides on the backs
>> >> of the people they exploit.
>>
>> >ROTFLMAO. What business do you own that allows you to make the
>> >statement that "Owners have gotten a free ride?"
>>
>> The 2% club that owns the USA, has never done any work. They are the
>> idle rich that spend their time at vacation homes, yachts, and trips
>> to exotic locations.
>>
>> Anthing that exists, has been created by their employees.
>
>Not hardly. Several of my previous assignments, the owners had the
>vision (which I did not), but I had the skill and talent (which they
>did not) so it was a symbiotic relationship. Not like a leeching
>relationship as is afforded by unions.

Obviously ideas are essential, but it is the employees that transform
the original concepts into physical realities. It was a good idea to
have continent-spanning railways in North America, but it was
thousands and thousands of workers, often working in truly horrible
conditions, that made that into a tangible reality.

>
>> That fact that Bill Gates can be as wealthy as he is, suggests that
>> either he seriously overcharged for his products, underpaid his
>> employees, or both. Bill himself never created much of anything.
>
>I've been a student of that company for over a quarter of a century.
>The main reasons Mr. Bill got as rich as he did was because he is
>opportunistic and ruthless, and he hired one helluva marketing team. I
>actually considered working for the company in the mid eighties before
>I realized they were the world's largest fertilizer producer. The fact
>that so many Americans bought that crap is proof that one of your
>statements is correct: the American educational system is a joke.

Bill managed to produce a virtual monopoly for his products,
essentially due to loopholes in American law that allowed it. It is
that same monopoly that allows Microsoft to sell its Office Suite for
$900 where perhaps $50 would be more reasonable and still produce a
profit.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed May 20 15:15:19 EDT 2009
Article: 2497878 of soc.culture.usa
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.usa
Subject: Re: Leftists support communism...
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Sat, 16 May 2009 14:53:54 -0300, Fred 
wrote:

>liberalhere@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>> On May 11, 4:41 pm, dank...@rocketmail.com wrote:
>>> On May 11, 4:41 am, Fred  wrote:
>>>
>>> > Communism is left wing.  It supports the interests of the poor
>>> > working classes.  Fascism is right wing and supports the
>>> > interests of the rich, elitist classes.  For this reason, the
>>> > left has no apologies to make on this count.  The Soviet people
>>> > were better off under the USSR than they are now after having
>>> > lost the cold war. There were right wing atrocities under Stalin,
>>> > but the communist ideals remain valid in their objectives of
>>> > attaining a classless society.
>>>
>>> Communism and Fascism are almost identical, with people living
>>> under either system being equally oppressed.
>> 
>> Moron....*SOCIALISM* and fascism are almost identical. A communist
>> society requires "the whithering away of the state".
>> 
>> Communism and libertarianism are almost identical.
>> 
>        Not at all.  Libertarianism is extreme right wing and fascist. 
>Socialism if slightly to the left of centre and Communism is on the
>left.

Communism and Fascism are at opposite ends of the political spectrum.
The first is extreme left, and the latter is extreme right. The
American Republicans would count as fascists in most European
countries, for example.

If one were to transpose the American political spectrum onto Canada,
then your Democrats would already be more conservative and reactionary
than our Tories (conservatives) and your Republicans would be lunatic
fringe right.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed May 20 15:15:20 EDT 2009
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.usa
Subject: Re: Leftists support communism...
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Sat, 16 May 2009 14:10:59 -0400, Steve
 wrote:

>On Sat, 16 May 2009 14:53:54 -0300, Fred 
>wrote:
>
>>liberalhere@yahoo.com wrote:
>>
>>> On May 11, 4:41 pm, dank...@rocketmail.com wrote:
>>>> On May 11, 4:41 am, Fred  wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > Communism is left wing.  It supports the interests of the poor
>>>> > working classes.  Fascism is right wing and supports the
>>>> > interests of the rich, elitist classes.  For this reason, the
>>>> > left has no apologies to make on this count.  The Soviet people
>>>> > were better off under the USSR than they are now after having
>>>> > lost the cold war. There were right wing atrocities under Stalin,
>>>> > but the communist ideals remain valid in their objectives of
>>>> > attaining a classless society.
>>>>
>>>> Communism and Fascism are almost identical, with people living
>>>> under either system being equally oppressed.
>>> 
>>> Moron....*SOCIALISM* and fascism are almost identical. A communist
>>> society requires "the whithering away of the state".
>>> 
>>> Communism and libertarianism are almost identical.
>>> 
>>        Not at all.  Libertarianism is extreme right wing and fascist. 
>
>Libertarianism is as far from fascism as you can get, you moron.

You are mixing up economic systems and political system. Fascism tends
to glorify the state, whereas Libertarians tend to downplay the
importance of state authority.

In practice, a Libertarian society would be totally unfettered
capitalism, which would amount to the worst tyranny possible, short of
rule by priest. Libertarianism is another word for plutocracy, or rule
by money. Libertarians would be against community anything, and all
services would need to be private, with the result that if you had no
money, you would have to do without food, shelter, clothing, medical
care, police protection, fire protection, and legal protection. All
rights would reside with the people with money. There is enough of
that already, without totally sweeping away the rights of the
non-monied classes.

>
>
>>Socialism if slightly to the left of centre and Communism is on the
>>left.
>
>Both will stink up the place to where you can't breath...


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Thu May 21 14:24:23 EDT 2009
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Subject: Re: Hitlary Not Popular in Israel
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On Wed, 20 May 2009 23:30:38 -0400, Dave Heil 
wrote:

>Topaz wrote:
>>  
>> England's Guilt
>> by Joseph Goebbels
>> 
>
>> We did not want war. England inflicted it on us. English plutocracy
>> forced it on us. England is responsible for the war, and it will have
>> to pay for it.
>
>I'm sure that everyone remembers when England marched into the
>Sudetenland, Poland, Belgium, Denmark, France.

You're awfully stupid, Dave. The Sudetenland should never have been
awarded to Czechoslovakia post WW1 since the inhabitants were neither
Czechs nor Slovaks. Poland got the assignment from Britain to goad
Germany into military action. Polish intransigence and obstinacy did
the trick. Belgium has always been the path for invading armies
between France and Germany, in either direction. Denmark was not
invaded. They were told by phone that the Danish government was
temporarily suspended and that authority would be exercised by a
German governor. France had declared war on Germany. Did you really
expect the German authorities to quietly sit on their hands until the
French army arrived at Köln or Mainz?

>
>Goebbels was dumb.  You're dumber.
>
>Dave Heil


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Thu May 21 14:24:24 EDT 2009
Article: 2021767 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Strange: The Destruction of German documents by Allies.
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Wed, 20 May 2009 22:18:09 +1000, "B. Cramer"
 wrote:

>
>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message 
>news:vfq7151qfbvmjt2m26ahg0oenr653sa88q@4ax.com...
>> On Tue, 19 May 2009 23:51:07 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
>>  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message
>>>news:nha615hckvuk92s7ed6d4fnfcmoueedc1d@4ax.com...
>>>> On Tue, 19 May 2009 22:04:14 +0200, ZuLu  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Why for?
>>>>>
>>>>>Weren't nazis supposed to have left "any traces" of their alleged
>>>>>"crimes"?
>>>>>
>>>>>Why such need to destroy a mass of German documents which "couldn't fall
>>>>>in German
>>>>>hands"?
>>>>>
>>>>>The proof from the book
>>>>>Unternehmen Patentenraub-1945 by Friedrich Georg, (Tuebingen:
>>>>>Grabert-Verlag, 2008).
>>>>
>>>> That was an extremely interesting and informative book.
>>>
>>>Was it? You read the lot of it in two hours?
>>
>> Where did this crap originate? The book is rather too long to read in
>> two hours.
>
>The cloth eared bint assumes you located it when mentioned here and read 
>same in the short time between your two posts.
>
>It's not the full quid this beacon thing. Quite dim, actually.

I have a whole library of books on this topic. Poor Mavis, or whatever
its name actually is, is OTL.

>
>
>>
>>>
>>>
>> 


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Thu May 21 14:24:24 EDT 2009
Article: 2021768 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Strange: The Destruction of German documents by Allies.
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Wed, 20 May 2009 17:37:59 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
 wrote:

>
>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message 
>news:vfq7151qfbvmjt2m26ahg0oenr653sa88q@4ax.com...
>> On Tue, 19 May 2009 23:51:07 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
>>  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message
>>>news:nha615hckvuk92s7ed6d4fnfcmoueedc1d@4ax.com...
>>>> On Tue, 19 May 2009 22:04:14 +0200, ZuLu  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Why for?
>>>>>
>>>>>Weren't nazis supposed to have left "any traces" of their alleged
>>>>>"crimes"?
>>>>>
>>>>>Why such need to destroy a mass of German documents which "couldn't fall
>>>>>in German
>>>>>hands"?
>>>>>
>>>>>The proof from the book
>>>>>Unternehmen Patentenraub-1945 by Friedrich Georg, (Tuebingen:
>>>>>Grabert-Verlag, 2008).
>>>>
>>>> That was an extremely interesting and informative book.
>>>
>>>Was it? You read the lot of it in two hours?
>>
>> Where did this crap originate? The book is rather too long to read in
>> two hours.
>
>It originated with a post from Zulu
>Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 22:04:14 +0200
>Message-ID: <4a1310c7$2@news.x-privat.org>
>
>Time = UT +2
>Just after ten PM
>
>And your above reply
>Message-ID: 
>Tue, 19 May 2009 23:53:23 CEST (amsnews12
>Almost midnight
>Time = UT -5
>
>If I made an error or your server delays posts and you replied less than two 
>hours after his mess