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From ebersdorf@gmail.com Tue Dec  2 13:29:38 EST 2008
Article: 1964302 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Germany to pursue Holocaust denier's arrest
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Sat, 29 Nov 2008 08:24:36 +0100, "Heinrich"
 wrote:

>
>"I'll Always Be Here"  schreef in bericht 
>news:Xns9B64E37AFC526Theonlyonethatcares@87.106.137.111...
>> "Heinrich"  wrote in
>> news:6pc3bmF7e8eoU1@mid.individual.net:
>>
>>>
>>> "I'll Always Be Here"  schreef in bericht
>>> news:Xns9B64903DD8FCCTheonlyonethatcares@87.106.137.111...
>>>> Johannes von Ebersdorf  wrote in
>>>> news:4l10j454t98ij87bvj5g32bfqpokd08277@4ax.com:
>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, 28 Nov 2008 06:48:27 -0800 (PST), "Chris C. Larson"
>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On Nov 27, 10:22 am, Johannes von Ebersdorf 
>>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>>> On Wed, 26 Nov 2008 10:18:06 -0800 (PST), "ChrisC.Larson"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>>> >On Nov 26, 9:07 am, "Kurt Knoll"  wrote:
>>>>>>> >> I have never seen a German newspaper since 1945 where the Germans
>>>>>>> >> are allowed to have an open discussion about the holocaust. And
>>>>>>> >> just like under Hitler's time everyone has to be very carefully
>>>>>>> >> what he says about the holocaust in public.
>>>>>>> >> Kurt Knoll.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> >> "I'll Always Be Here"  wrote in
>>>>>>> >> messagenews:Xns9B61BC64BD58ETheonlyonethatcares@87.106.137.111...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> >> > "Kurt Knoll"  wrote
>>>>>>> >> > innews:JA1Xk.177$yK5.8@edtnps82:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> >> >> You mean the Germans are not allowed to read or see what other
>>>>>>> >> >> countries say about the holocaust I just wonder what will come
>>>>>>> >> >> next.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> >> > Interesting. How do they manage to avoid it in the newspapers,
>>>>>>> >> > radios, tv's, books, magazines and the internet?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> >> > They all can't be as stupid or lazy as you.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> >> >> Kurt Knoll.
>>>>>>> >> >> wen du zum saufen augh rst kanns du auch alles lessen.
>>>>>>> >> >> kk
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> >> >> "Wolfgang Kieckbusch"  wrote in message
>>>>>>> >> >> news:edf0fcaa-95dd-4fb2-9235-
>>>>>>> >> > cbc5607c1...@g38g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
>>>>>>> >> >>> On 25 Nov., 15:19, "Kurt Knoll"  wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> >> >>> Es ist der Alkohol, Knoll!
>>>>>>> >> >>> Du richtest Dich zugrunde!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> >> >>> Wolfgang Kieckbusch
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> >Kurt:
>>>>>>> >I see that you are still struggling with the concept of denying
>>>>>>> >facts being confused with "open discussion". We've seen the points
>>>>>>> >(or lack thereof), that you and your asshole denier buddies have
>>>>>>> >made. Do you have any thing else to discuss? If not, go find
>>>>>>> >yourself something better to do.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Actually Kurt is quite correct. German authorities pander to the
>>>>>>> allied version of WW2, and subject anybody who askes uncomfortable
>>>>>>> questions to judicial persecution.- Hide quoted text -
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> - Show quoted text -
>>>>>>
>>>>>>And your proof?
>>>>>
>>>>> LOL
>>>>>
>>>>> Read any German newspaper or magazine, assuming that you are capable.
>>>>> The ministry of justice indicates that there were almost ten thousand
>>>>> prosecutions in 2004 for what could charitably be called "propaganda
>>>>> offences".
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Interesting. Provide the name of the newspapers, the dates and the
>>>> pages.>
>>>  he is right !!!
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Not until he proves it.
>since when is it up to you to decide whether it is genuine proof? 

Nameless one always wants other people to do their research for them,
and then he will claim that the sources are invalid or that the
authors are biased. I have seen this scenario rather too many times.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Tue Dec  2 13:29:38 EST 2008
Article: 1964307 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Sylvia Stolz was locked up for what reason?
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Fri, 28 Nov 2008 17:46:09 +0200, holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene
Holman) wrote:

>In article ,
>ebersdorf@gmail.com wrote:
>
>
> 
>> The woman didn't say she was a citizen of the "third" Reich, a state
>> that has never legally existed. It is simply a term used by the
>> uneducated masses. If there ever were to be a third Empire, it would
>> still be future.
>> 
>> There has been no new German state since the founding of the second
>> Empire in 1871. 
>
>That can be argued, even if you might be technically correct. From a
>practical and legal standpoint, the German *Reich* collapsed in May, 1945,
>with Austria, the German Federal Republic, and the German Democratic
>Republic, replacing it in 1945 (Austria) and 1949, respectively. As we all
>know, the German Federal Republic reunited itself with ("wiedervereinigte
>sich mit") the German Democratic Republic in 1990. If a processes of
>reuniting took place, between the time of the breakup and the reuniting
>there had to have been a separate and distinct political entity.
>
>> All Germans are citizens of the state known in
>> international law as "Deutsches Reich" and the BRD is only its
>> trustee, not a replacement for it.
>
>Hitlerite Germany was indeed known legally simply as "Deutsches Reich" or
>"das deutsche Reich", these being the terms that he used in his speeches
>and which also appeared on postage stamps, currency, passports, etc. But
>that country ceased to exist in May 1945, and its two major successor
>states, the German Federal Republic, and the German Democratic Republic,
>were established as semi-sovereign (in the sense that both were under some
>form of foreign occupation) political entities in 1949. 
>
>According to the German Constitution (2 BvF 1/73; BVerfGE 36), the German
>Federal Republic is "identical" with the "deutsches Reich", however
>practical geopolitics as well as history tell a different story.
>Bismarck's "deutsches Reich" included territory that is now in France,
>Denmark, Poland, Russia, and Lithuania. Between 1949 and 1990 the German
>Democratic Republic, a distinct state, never formally recognized by the
>Federal Republic, but widely recognized by other countries, with its
>*defacto* if not *de jure* existence also recognized by the German Federal
>Republic, cut off all historical connections with the *deutsches Reich*
>existed on the territory of and had a population mostly descended from
>that of Bismarck's *Reich*, without being regarded or regarding itself as
>a successor state to it.
>
>The *legality* of the existence of the German Democratic republic can be
>argued, but there is no arguing the historical fact that it did exist
>between 1949 and 1990, and that even the German Federal Republic had to
>deal with the *practical factuality* of its existence.
>
>Regards,
>Eugene Holman
>
>*Deutschland drei geteilt? Niemals!"

As I said, all power in the BRD comes from its trusteeship of the
political entity known as Deutsches Reich. (Incidentally, both the D
and the R are capitalized since it is a single entity, not an
adjective before a noun).

The second empire was NOT extinguished in 1945, since the allied
officials specifically stated of the occupation that "This does not
effect the annexation of Germany".

The fact that parts of the Empire remain under alien occupation does
not mean that it no longer exists. The BRD is NOT identical with DR,
which is why the name DR is not used for it.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Tue Dec  2 13:29:38 EST 2008
Article: 1964311 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Sylvia Stolz was locked up for what reason?
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Sat, 29 Nov 2008 09:25:45 +0200, holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene
Holman) wrote:

>In article
>, Bent
>Attorney  wrote:
>
>
>> 
>> I started this thread with the intention of getting a debate going
>> over the morality behind Stolz's lock up.  I wanted people to state
>> their opinions as to whether they thought her detention was right,
>> wrong, in a grey area or whatever, and why.  
>
>The issue of her being in prison is not as much a moral as it is a legal
>one. Ms. Stolz has behaved in a manner regarded an Germany as contempuous
>to the point of being seditious of the state in addition to having
>violated laws that are taken extremely seriously and rigorously enforced
>in Germany. The state has responded to her contemptuous and seditious
>behavior in the manner deemed apprpriate in its legal code. If you want to
>inject the issue of morality, you have to consider two issues: 1. the
>citizen's moral obligation to stay on the right side of the law, 2. the
>citizen's moral obligation to call attention to unjust laws and work to
>rectify them.  
>
>With respect to the first issue there is no questioning the fact that Ms.
>Stolz acted immorally. Not only did she disobey laws, she showed
>unprecedented and repeated contempt for both the government that had
>passed the laws and the legal system that enforces them, even when ordered
>to cease and desist from doing so. As to the laws themselves, they exist
>and are enforced to ensure that Germans do not deny, forget, belittle, or
>try to justify the crimes committed in the name of their nation in most of
>Europe during the National Socialist regime. It boils down to the issue of
>whether it is more moral to ensure that the crimes committed by the Nazis
>are neither denied nor forgotten, or to allow people with such an agenda
>to deny, belittle, or try to justify these crimes.
>
>> Instead I get a lot of
>> legal stuff from someone who doesn't seem to know anything about
>> himself.  He just goes on and on about what this state would have
>> done, or what that state did, or how Stolz sinned against the state
>> etc.
>
>The legal stuff is part of the issue. Ms. Stolz denies both the crimes
>committed by the Nazis as well as the legitimacy of the German Federal
>Republic, and, specifically, of its laws forbidding public Holocaust
>denial and its mandate to enforce them.
>
>> Not much opinion coming from Holman.  Just statist crap.  Holman:  You
>> have any original ideas, or do you just spew twice chewed state
>> controlled vegetation?
>
>I have lived and studied in Germany and I am quite familiar with Ms.
>Stolz's mindset. The Neo-Nazi movement, one of the branches of which Ms.
>Stolz represents, denies the legitimacy of the German Federal Republic as
>the successor state to Hitler's Reich and thus considers its laws, legal
>system, judges, and police to be illegitimate organs of a state
>established and maintained by foreign occupants, conveniently neglecting
>the fact that Austria, which is not under foreign occupation, has and
>rigorously enforces similar laws. Any discussion of the morality of Ms.
>Stolz's behavior and of the punishment meted out for it by the German
>legal system has to address the issue of the legitimacy of the present
>German state and government, and of Ms. Stolz's right to deny this
>legitimacy.
>
>Regards,
>Eugene Holman

Violating bad laws may be dangerous and possibly unwise, but it
certainly isn't immoral. As a democracy, the BRD is a farce.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Tue Dec  2 13:29:38 EST 2008
Article: 1964312 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Sylvia Stolz was locked up for what reason?
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Sat, 29 Nov 2008 12:40:54 +0200, holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene
Holman) wrote:

>In article <2e2dnTEi0eldnKzUnZ2dnUVZ_tzinZ2d@giganews.com>, "Ben Cramer"
> wrote:
>
>> "Eugene Holman"  wrote in message 
>> news:holman-2911080925450001@ke-hupnet143-27.hupnet.helsinki.fi...
>
>
>
>> > The issue of her being in prison is not as much a moral as it is a legal
>> > one. Ms. Stolz has behaved in a manner regarded an Germany as contempuous
>> > to the point of being seditious of the state in addition to having
>> > violated laws that are taken extremely seriously and rigorously enforced
>> > in Germany. The state has responded to her contemptuous and seditious
>> > behavior in the manner deemed apprpriate in its legal code. If you want to
>> > inject the issue of morality, you have to consider two issues: 1. the
>> > citizen's moral obligation to stay on the right side of the law, 2. the
>> > citizen's moral obligation to call attention to unjust laws and work to
>> > rectify them.
>> >
>> > With respect to the first issue there is no questioning the fact that Ms.
>> > Stolz acted immorally.
>> 
>> Whoa. Right there.
>> 
>> Immorally by whose standards?
>
>By the standards of modern European statecraft according to which secular
>states promulgate laws reflecting the collective will and values of the
>people that they represent, with their citizenry and others legally under
>their jurisdiction being obligated to observe and obey these laws, and
>subject to clearly defined sanctions if they choose not to do so.
> 
>> >Not only did she disobey laws, she showed
>> > unprecedented and repeated contempt for both the government that had
>> > passed the laws and the legal system that enforces them,
>> 
>> Which is the right of every citizen living in and under a democratic 
>> government.
>
>It is indeed their right, but every citizen who chooses to exercise this
>right knows that he/she runs the risk of a specific punishment.
>
>> > even when ordered
>> > to cease and desist from doing so. As to the laws themselves, they exist
>> > and are enforced to ensure that Germans do not deny, forget, belittle, or
>> > try to justify the crimes committed in the name of their nation in most of
>> > Europe during the National Socialist regime.
>> 
>> Horseshit. The laws were created by and for the yids to fuel the fires of 
>> guilt which then runs the engine of reparations.
>
>Wrong. The Jews were only one of the groups targeted by the Nazis and they
>are only one of the groups that has received reparations. Nazi Germany
>managed to piss off just about everybody in Europe, and its successor
>state has had to pay reparations to the countries that it invaded,
>pillaged, and ethnically cleansed.

Most of the ethnic cleansing went in the other directions. The Poles
and Czechs pretty much hold the world record in that department.


>
>> >It boils down to the issue of
>> > whether it is more moral to ensure that the crimes committed by the Nazis
>> > are neither denied nor forgotten, or to allow people with such an agenda
>> > to deny, belittle, or try to justify these crimes.
>> 
>> What crimes? 
>
>For starters: attacking Poland on September 1, 1939, attacking, occupying,
>and pillaging Belgium, the Netherlands, Luxembourg, much of France,
>Norway, and Denmark during 1940, attacking the USSR on June 22, 1941,
>destroying Warsaw, Lidice, Distomo, Oradour-sur-Glane, and others,
>including the southwestern suburbs of Leningrad. Besieging Leningrad for
>three years resulting in 600,000 civilian deaths there. Destroying
>hundreds of thousands of Jews in public mass shootings during th summer
>and fall of 1941 at places such as Daugavpils, Liepaja, Rumbula,
>S^iauliai, Kiev, Odessa, Kharkov, Serniki, Ustinovka, Starokamensk, Minsk,
>Dnepropetrovsk...
>
>> There's never been a properly constituted court established to 
>> examine these alleged "crimes."
>
>These crimes were the objects of numerous past-war trials, lasting well
>into the 2000s, in West Germany, East Germany, Austria, the Netherlands,
>Belgium, Poland, Luxembourg, Hungary, Finland, Denmark, Norway, Israel,
>the USSR, Greece, Italy, the United States, Canada, Australia, and
>elsewhere. 
>
>> Yid apologia snipped.
>
>If the Nazis had only committed crimes against the Jews in Germany, things
>would be relatively simple. But they set up shop in more than twenty
>countries, and targeted not ony Jews, but also Gypsies, homosexuals,
>Social democrats, trade unionists, Roman Catholic clergy, political
>activists, people of mixed race, and various and sundry others who did not
>fit into their mold.
>
>The Nazis were nasty people and their crimes resulted in the death of
>roughly 40,000,000 Europeans. Denying, deprecating, or trying to justify
>their criminality is offensive to the overwhelming majoriy of Europeans,
>even if the Silvia Stolz's, Ernst Z�ndels, and David Irvings of the world
>think that the Nazis took a bad rap and were really not so evil after all.
>
>Regards,
>Eugene Holman


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Tue Dec  2 13:29:39 EST 2008
Article: 1964313 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Sylvia Stolz was locked up for what reason?
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Sat, 29 Nov 2008 18:37:53 +0200, holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene
Holman) wrote:

>In article , "Kurt Knoll"
> wrote:
>
>> Lets face it Eugene Germany is a lackey for the state of Israel. 
>
>How so? Germany unleashed a continent-wide war and lost it big time.

Nonsense. Both WW1 and WW2 were engineered by the allies, mainly
Britain.


>Initially confident that it would be victorious, Hitler's Reich flagrantly
>violated international conventions concerning the rules of warfare 

The allies were no different.



and
>embarked upon an unprecedented campaign of pillage and ethnic cleansing to
>both rid Europe of people it regarded as racially undesirable and destroy
>the cultures and physical existence of peoples it regarded as racial
>inferiors, *Untermenschen*, in order to gain additional territory,
>*Lebensraum* for German colonization.

That is crap. It wasn't Hitler who needed a war. He was getting
everything he needed without war. It was the allies who needed a war.

>
>Nazi Germany did unspeakably horrible things to the parents, grandparents,
>and relatives of most of the citizens of the state of Israel, as well as
>to a few survivors living there, but it did even more horrible things to
>the citizens of Poland (approx 10,000,000 of whom were killed by the
>Nazis)

There is no bloody way that 10 M Poles died in WW2. Try fewer than 5
M, and that includes the 3 M Polish Jews in eastern Poland.






 and the Soviet Union (approx, 25,000,000 of whom were killed by the
>Nazis). Both countries lost far more population due to Nazi perfidy than
>the number of Jews (approx. 6,000,000) killed, remembering that there is
>some overlap. Thus, it is not only the Jews or the state of Israel that
>have an interest in keeping the Holocaust on the agenda and ensuring that
>the present generation of Germans is not allowed to forget, deny,
>downplay, or try to justify the Holocaust. All of Germany's neighbors,
>victimized by the Holocaust in one way or another, do what they can to
>make sure that their own younger generation as well as the Germans,
>remember the Holocaust and its implications. This would still be the case
>even if Israel would never have been founded.
>
>> What she 
>> did is showing it to the whole words. here case was a show for the holocaust 
>> industries.
>
>What Silvia Stolz did was make her clearly psychotic relationship to the
>German state and its recent history evident to the entire world. She also
>demonstrated far better than she could have ever imagined why German and
>Austrian laws criminalizing denial, deprecation, or attempts to justify
>the Holocaust need to be kept in the legal code and robustly enforced.
>
>
>
>Regards,
>Eugene Holman


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Tue Dec  2 13:29:39 EST 2008
Article: 1964315 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Sylvia Stolz was locked up for what reason?
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Sun, 30 Nov 2008 12:16:16 +0200, holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene
Holman) wrote:

>In article , "Ben Cramer"
> wrote:
>
>> "Eugene Holman"  wrote in message 
>> news:holman-3011081000410001@ke-hupnet143-27.hupnet.helsinki.fi...
>> > In article <5YCdnX85dY2qRKzUnZ2dnUVZ_hSdnZ2d@giganews.com>, "Ben Cramer"
>
>
>> >> There was no state of israel, fuckwit.
>> >
>> > The Nazis did unspeakably horrible things between 1938 and 1945 to the
>> > parents,  grandparents, and relatives of most of the people who are
>> > citizens of the state of Israel today. Indeed, a substantial part of the
>> > present citizenry of Israel left or are the descendants of people who left
>> > Nazi Germany for Palestine between 1933 and 1938 precisely because the
>> > Nazis were doing unspeakable horrible things to Jews in Germany.
>> 
>> So you say. You've never provided any properly tested evidence to support 
>> your nonsense. 
>
>You can't "properly test" an historical event.

It was an historical event much like the Belgian children whose hands
were hacked off, at least according to British propaganda. There is
virtually nothing that the allies have ever said about anything that
isn't a lie.

>
>Exhibit 1:
>http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/11/09/germany.commemorate.ap/
>
>Exhibit 2: http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/docs/Bruns/index.html 
>
>Exhibit 3:
>http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/media_fi.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10005143&MediaId=183
>
>Exhibit 4.
>http://64.233.183.132/search?q=cache:j-LhzhL-wIMJ:www.liepajajews.org/LGhetto.pdf+liepaja+massacre&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4&client=firefox-a
>
>Exhibit 5. http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Arajs-Kommando
>
>
>> Judicial notice doesnt' cut it, old feller.
>
>I've never appealed to judicial notice.
>
>Regards,
>Eugene Holman


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Tue Dec  2 13:29:39 EST 2008
Article: 1964550 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Sylvia Stolz was locked up for what reason?
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On Tue, 02 Dec 2008 13:12:46 +0200, holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene
Holman) wrote:

>In article , "Ben Cramer"
> wrote:
>
>> "Eugene Holman"  wrote in message 
>> news:holman-0212080753560001@c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi...
>> > In article
>> > , Bent
>> > Attorney  wrote:
>> >
>> >> On Dec 1, 6:20=A0pm, kmc...@shell.vex.net (Kenneth McVay OBC) wrote:
>> >
>> > 
>> >> >
>> >> > >> She violated German law, which is probably why he thought the German
>> >> > >> response was appropriate.
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> Hiding behind the law again.  How about what you think is right or
>> >> wrong?  Or don't you swing that way?
>> >
>> > What a person thinks is right or wrong is of very little value in a
>> > society governed by suprapersonal laws.
>> 
>> 
>> More b'ollocks from ole yougenie.
>> 
>> Split this up amongst ya, yougenie.
>> 
>> "de minimis non curat lex" 
>
>When a courtroom lawyer bases he defense on the country, the laws, and the
>court being illegtimate we are not dealing with trivia. It is an
>instantiation of unprecedented (= "beispiellos" is the adjective that the
>German prosecutor used to describe Sylvia Stolz's tactics) contempt for
>the state and legal system.
>
>Regards,
>Eugene Holmsn

Like numerous other unfortunates before her, Ms. Stolz found herself
faced with a "power" capable of doing unpleasant things to her. That
part is not in dispute and I suppose that she would have been aware of
that.

That is not the same as saying that the BRD has some sort of
legitimacy. The BRD is the reign of force, against an unwilling
population, engineered by alien elements. The best case scenario is
that this evil system be swept away like the Ancien Regime in
pre-revolutionary France.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Tue Dec  2 13:29:40 EST 2008
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Sylvia Stolz was locked up for what reason?
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On Tue, 02 Dec 2008 06:29:16 -0600, Sara Salzman
 wrote:

>In article 
>,
> Bent Attorney  wrote:
>
>> On Dec 1, 6:20�pm, kmc...@shell.vex.net (Kenneth McVay OBC) wrote:
>> > In article 
>> > <06bd3e42-a014-41fb-b7c1-9a9e8b372...@j11g2000yqg.googlegroups.com>,
>> > Bent Attorney � wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > >On Dec 1, 3:10�pm, kmc...@shell.vex.net (Kenneth McVay OBC) wrote:
>> > >> In article 
>> > >> ,
>> > >> Bent Attorney � wrote:
>> >
>> > >> >On Dec 1, 2:52�pm, "I'll Always Be Here" 
>> > >> >wrote:
>> > >> >> "Kurt Knoll"  wrote 
>> > >> >> innews:l5WYk.1675$si6.1216@edtnps83:
>> >
>> > >> >> > Like it or not what stolt'z did was in my opinion proper.
>> >
>> > >> >> And what happened to her was appropriate. Thank you.
>> > >> >Interesting. �You like to lock up those whose speech offends you. �I
>> > >> >was in the supermarket earlier and was soothed by the Christian
>> > >> >Christmas music that was played in the store. �Does this music offend
>> > >> >you too?
>> >
>> > >> I can't locate the part where he indicated that he liked to lock up 
>> > >> those
>> > >> whose speech offends him. Can you point it out, please?
>> >
>> > >Well look at what he said McVay. �'And what happened to her was
>> > >appropriate. �Thank you'.
>> >
>> > What he said was *no9t* that he liked to lock folks up if their speech
>> > offended him.
>> >
>> > You're such a deflector.
>> >
>> > >> >Now to brass tacks. �Why exactly do you say that 'what happened to her
>> > >> >was appropriate?' �Don't be like Eugene and hide behind legal
>> > >> >statutes. �Say what's on your mind if you've the stones.
>> >
>> > >> She violated German law, which is probably why he thought the German
>> > >> response was appropriate.
>> >
>> 
>> Hiding behind the law again.  How about what you think is right or
>> wrong?  Or don't you swing that way?
>
>
>"Hiding behind the law"? Isn't Stolz a LAWYER? Doesn't she have an 
>obligation to work within the LAW? 

If others believed that earlier, then we would still have slavery and
numerous other unjust institutions. Sometimes laws have to be opposed.
The persecution of Jews, for example, before and during WW2 was
"legal", but I'm pretty sure that you wouldn't call it "good".

>
>When people have a JOB, or a law license, they have obligations. Lawyers 
>are, at least in the US, "officers of the Court." They have certain 
>obligations. Once of those is to show respect to the Court. When they 
>don't, when they show contempt, there are consequences. If they don't 
>like it, they shouldn't practice in front of Judges.
>> 
>
>Why is that concept so alien to you?
>> > >Idiot as usual McVay. �German law bans free political speech you
>> > >fucking slime.
>> >
>> > She violated German law, regardless of what non-German citizens may think,
>> > and she was punished accordingly.
>> >
>> > If you wish to campaign to change those laws, by all means feel free to do
>> > so.
>> >
>> > --
>> > "In the final analysis, one does not refute a closed system, a total
>> > lie that is not refutable to the extent that its conclusions has
>> > preceded any evidence." (Vidal-Naquet, Pierre. Assassins of Memory,
>> > New York: Columbia University Press. p.81)


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Tue Dec  2 13:29:40 EST 2008
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
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Subject: Re: Sylvia Stolz was locked up for what reason?
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On Tue, 02 Dec 2008 07:43:21 +0200, holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene
Holman) wrote:

>In article
><06bd3e42-a014-41fb-b7c1-9a9e8b372503@j11g2000yqg.googlegroups.com>, Bent
>Attorney  wrote:
>
>> On Dec 1, 3:10=A0pm, kmc...@shell.vex.net (Kenneth McVay OBC) wrote:
>> > In article 
>> 
>> > >Now to brass tacks. =A0Why exactly do you say that 'what happened to her
>> > >was appropriate?' =A0Don't be like Eugene and hide behind legal
>> > >statutes. =A0Say what's on your mind if you've the stones.
>
>Sylvia Stolz was a practicing courtroom lawyer. Thus, both her
>professional competence and the place where she uses it are functions of
>legal statutes.
>
>Her client was Ernst Z�ndel, a German citizen accused of violating German
>laws remotely from Canada and the United States.
>
>Instead of entering a plea of "not guilty" and leave it up to the courts
>to produce evidence to the contrary,

You're confusing theoretical American practice with Germany. The
German legal system is based on Roman Law, and you are considered
guilty when you are charged. The obligation is on you to show that the
state's charges are wrong or that the state didn't have the right to
bring the charges in the first place. Ms. Stolz tried the second
approach and found that she herself had run afoul of ridiculous German
legislation.





> she constructed a defense based on
>her claim that the German state, its laws, and its court and legal system
>were all illegitimate and thus had neither a case nor even jurisdiction
>over Ernst Z�ndel and herself, both, she alleged, citizens of the German
>*Reich* but not of what she regards as its illegitimate successor state,
>the German Federal Republic. Needless to say, the court regarded such a
>defense as contemptuous and seditious. When trying to make its case that
>Z�ndel and Stolz were citizens of the German Federal Republic, and that
>its laws and legal system do indeed apply to both of them, Stolz
>interrupted the trial several times with filibustering and verbal
>outbursts. When told to cease and disist from such obstructive behavior,
>she refused to do so, claiming once again that the court had no
>jurisdiction over her and could not order her to behave in a specific
>manner. She was thus physically removed from the courtroom, kicking and
>screaming, by the bailiffs, eventually being charged with obstructing
>justice and multiple counts of contempt of court.
>
>I cannopt see how you can seriously claim that her eventual sentence amd
>punishment for obstructing justice and contempt of court are simply a
>matter of hiding behind legal statutes. I do not know of a country on this
>planet where such behavior would not have resulted in severe punishment
>for centempt of court and possibly sedition.
>
>> > She violated German law, which is probably why he thought the German
>> > response was appropriate.
>> 
>> Idiot as usual McVay.  German law bans free political speech you
>> fucking slime.
>
>German law bans *certain types* of public speech, just as Canadian and
>American law do. None of the three countries permits the kind of behavior
>in the courtroom that Silvia Stolz exhibited. Saying "fuck" or "cunt" on
>American daytime television or radio will get your broadcaster hit with a
>half million dollar fine; in Germany or Austria saying the equivalent is
>perfectly legal. On the other hand, claiming that the Nazi government did
>not kill Jews on German or Austrian radio or television will get you into
>trouble big time, even though it wpuld be perfectly legal in the United
>States.
>
>No country has completely free speech, political or otherwise. All
>countries have laws defining what counts as legal and illegal speech, even
>though the history and culture of the country concerned play a large role
>in determing what is and is not permissible. For easily understood
>reasons, Germany, Austria, and most of Germany and Austria's neighbors
>have and rigorously enforce laws criminalizing the denial, deprecation, or
>attempted justification of the crimes against humanity committed by
>Hitlerite Germany.
>
>Ernst Z�ndel chose to violate these laws, while Sylvia Stolz chose to
>challenge the legitimacy of the state that promulgated and enforces these
>laws by demonstrating her contempt for it and its legal system and
>procedures. Hence their present status as guests of the German penal
>system.
>
>
>
>Regards,
>Eugene Holman


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Tue Dec  2 13:29:40 EST 2008
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Sylvia Stolz was locked up for what reason?
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Tue, 02 Dec 2008 13:21:56 +0200, holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene
Holman) wrote:

>In article , "Ben Cramer"
> wrote:
>
>> "Eugene Holman"  wrote in message 
>> news:holman-0212080743210001@c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi...
>
>
>> >
>> > Her client was Ernst Z�ndel, a German citizen accused of violating German
>> > laws remotely from Canada and the United States.
>> 
>> de minimis non curat lex
>
>Years of systematic violation of German laws from two countries and
>despite an official complaint to the Canadians from the German government
>is not a trivial matter. 

If there was to be a trial, it should have been held in Canada and not
in an authoritarian joke of a democracy like the BRD.

The Canadian government caved in to demands by Jewish groups to have
Z�ndel deported to Germany, a country where Jesus would have been
deemed to have received a fair trial at the hands of Pontius Pilate.

>
>Non de minimis, sed de maximis egregiisque, curat lex.
>
>
>
>Regards,
>Eugene Holman


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Tue Dec  2 13:29:41 EST 2008
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Sylvia Stolz was locked up for what reason?
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On Tue, 02 Dec 2008 06:24:48 -0600, Sara Salzman
 wrote:

>In article ,
> "Kurt Knoll"  wrote:
>
>> You need you head examined what is stated is what I did hear from the 
>> English. The inbreed arrogance of the law society still shows it today.
>> Kurt Knoll.
>
>Sure. Stolz' arrogance was evident in her blatant disrespect towards the 
>Court.

Perhaps the court was deserving of contempt?

>> 
>> "Kenneth McVay OBC"  wrote in message 
>> news:mK6dnSXcb8kv7KnUnZ2dnUVZ_tLinZ2d@vex.net...
>> > In article ,
>> > Kurt Knoll  wrote:
>> >>There is one thing most of the people do not understand. The British legal
>> >>system is a remnant form the medieval ages and today's German system is 
>> >>not
>> >>very much different. The British legal system was administered by the
>> >>royals, Common people were not allowed to talk to the judge directly and 
>> >>had
>> >>to take a lawyer who was also a member of the royal clan to converse 
>> >>between
>> >>the royals and him self. I find it very much insulting when ordinary 
>> >>people
>> >>have to bend over to please this parasites ass.
>> >
>> > No lawyer is required - consider the case of David "See you, sue you"
>> > Irving as an example.
>> >
>> > Please stop knolling.
>> >
>> > 116 Statements Demonstrating Leading Revisionist Scholar Kurt Knoll's
>> > strict adherence to the high intellectual standards of Holocaust denial:
>> >
>> > (See http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/k/knoll-kurt/ for the first 105)
>> > (Honest, Folks, I'm not making them up!)
>> >
>> > 106. "We all know in whose poked the judge is who made this decision."
>> >     ,, October 31, 2008
>> >
>> > 107. "There you go mirelle and the Jews fuck anyone the can
>> >     some others twice." <%HBPk.5939$%%2.2445@edtnps82>,
>> >     Nov. 3, 2008
>> >
>> > 108. "Go back to you comic book and finish reading it . But I know you
>> >     are all fucket up and the Syphilis bothering your brain."
>> >    <1MaQk.417$A73.19@edtnps82>, Nov. 5, 2008
>> >
>> > 109. "In CASE of world war lI the germans reap what they are
>> >     dolt to blivr no questions ask." ,
>> >     Nov. 6, 2008
>> >
>> > 110. "You must be kidding I do save all your replies and my postings
>> >     no wunder why all of us do not rust you."
>> >     <%hMQk.902$xJ3.739@edtnps83>, Nov. 6, 2008
>> >
>> > 111. "There is no need to reply to dihonedt partites like you."
>> >     , Nov. 8, 2008
>> >
>> > 112. "If tree were still some of the camp guards alive today."
>> >     , Nov. 9, 2008
>> >
>> > 113. "As long as your gang victimize other there will be people
>> >     here and ask more guest." <6gXSk.116$jr4.61@edtnps82>,
>> >     Nov. 13, 2008
>> >
>> > 114. "Cutting basting and altering someone reply is Kenneth McVay
>> >     domain.  What we are looking at her is a person who has
>> >     absolutely no charter." , Nov.
>> >     15, 2008
>> >
>> > 115. "And who was the bushing force behind it."
>> >     <3xoVk.2022$jr4.1436@edtnps82>, Nov. 20, 2008
>> >
>> > 116. "Just watching you is enough to hate two faced cook suckers like
>> >     you." , Nov. 22, 2008
>> >
>> > -- 
>> > "Irving's conclusions were completely untenable. I thought his
>> > scholarship was sloppy and unreliable and did not meet even the
>> > most basic requirements of honest and competent historical
>> > research."             (Richard Evans, Lying About Hitler, p.70)


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Tue Dec  2 13:29:41 EST 2008
Article: 1964569 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Sylvia Stolz was locked up for what reason?
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On Tue, 02 Dec 2008 08:07:47 +0200, holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene
Holman) wrote:

>In article
><6c9ca288-7834-4cad-9f22-f670294c0080@o2g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>, Bent
>Attorney  wrote:
>
>> On Dec 1, 5:42=A0pm, "I'll Always Be Here" 
>> wrote:
>
>
>> >
>> > Not true. I have no desire to lock you up. But I can see that you support
>> > the right of someone to stand up in a crowded theater and shout "Fire",
>> > right?
>> >
>> 
>> Do you actually expect me to read anything further that was written by
>> you when you come up with such a stupid statement?
>
>It's not a stupid statement at all.
>
>You criticize Germany for criminalizing certain types of public speech
>while accepting that Canada, the United States, and many other countries
>also criminalize certain types of public speech. The "Oh, but that's
>different" argument doesn't work. Why can I say *Fotze* 'cunt' or *bumsen*
>'fuck' on German daytime television or radio and not get into trouble, but
>if I say the same words in English on American daytime broadcasting the
>FCC will slap the broadcaster with a half million dollar fine? Which is
>more dangerous to society, Anglo-Saxon monosyllables for basic biological
>structures and activities or public denial, deprecation, or attempted
>justiciation of crimes that wrecked a continent and claimed the lives of
>tens of millions of innocent people? Bent Attorney, thy name is not
>logical consistency.

In Canada, unlike Germany, you will not be imprisoned for political
opinions if the opinions fall short of advocating violent overthrow of
the government. You will certainly not be imprisoned for having views
on a historical event that differ from the views of the powers that
be. Modern Germany is a cruel farce masquerading as a democracy.

>
>
>Winston Churchill: Madame Wiltshire, would you go to bed with me if I paid
>you a hundred thousand pounds?
>
>Madame Wiltshire (blushing): I certainly would, Mr. Churchill.
>
>Winston Churchill: Would you  go to bed with me if I paid you one pound?
>
>Madame Wiltshire (indignant): I most certainly would not. What kind of a
>woman do you think I am?
>
>Winston Churchill: I think we have already established that, madame. Now
>we are haggling over the price.
>
>
>
>Regards,
>Eugene Holman


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Dec 12 15:37:33 EST 2008
Article: 1965760 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Sylvia Stolz was locked up for what reason?
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Tue, 2 Dec 2008 19:27:58 -0500, "Patrick Keenan" 
wrote:

>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message 
>news:h3daj4tcl28ug5srmci6a5tc1orc8jkfj8@4ax.com...
>> On Tue, 02 Dec 2008 13:12:46 +0200, holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene
>> Holman) wrote:
>>
>>>In article , "Ben Cramer"
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> "Eugene Holman"  wrote in message
>>>> news:holman-0212080753560001@c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi...
>>>> > In article
>>>> > , 
>>>> > Bent
>>>> > Attorney  wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> On Dec 1, 6:20=A0pm, kmc...@shell.vex.net (Kenneth McVay OBC) wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > 
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > >> She violated German law, which is probably why he thought the 
>>>> >> > >> German
>>>> >> > >> response was appropriate.
>>>> >> >
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Hiding behind the law again.  How about what you think is right or
>>>> >> wrong?  Or don't you swing that way?
>>>> >
>>>> > What a person thinks is right or wrong is of very little value in a
>>>> > society governed by suprapersonal laws.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> More b'ollocks from ole yougenie.
>>>>
>>>> Split this up amongst ya, yougenie.
>>>>
>>>> "de minimis non curat lex"
>>>
>>>When a courtroom lawyer bases he defense on the country, the laws, and the
>>>court being illegtimate we are not dealing with trivia. It is an
>>>instantiation of unprecedented (= "beispiellos" is the adjective that the
>>>German prosecutor used to describe Sylvia Stolz's tactics) contempt for
>>>the state and legal system.
>>>
>>>Regards,
>>>Eugene Holmsn
>>
>> Like numerous other unfortunates before her, Ms. Stolz found herself
>> faced with a "power" capable of doing unpleasant things to her. That
>> part is not in dispute and I suppose that she would have been aware of
>> that.
>
>While you are supposing, do you suppose that you can find anywhere where 
>lawyers called to the bar do not swear to respect and uphold the laws and 
>government of the nation and jurisdiction they seek to practice in?
>
>Do you suppose they are unconscious when they swear to this?
>
>> That is not the same as saying that the BRD has some sort of
>> legitimacy.
>
>No, it isn't, but it clearly does.   You could ask its population - oh, 
>wait, that already happens.
>
>> The BRD is the reign of force, against an unwilling
>> population,
>
>Its population doesn't seem to be that unwilling to me.  They seem to be 
>thriving and glad to have the freedoms that the Nazis and Communists denied 
>them.
>
>But perhaps you are looking at another planet or dimension.
>
>> engineered by alien elements.
>
>It appears to be solidly supported by its population, who vote for it every 
>few years.
>
>I don't see movements to do away with it by anyone other than a very few 
>loons.
>
>> The best case scenario is
>> that this evil system be swept away like the Ancien Regime in
>> pre-revolutionary France.
>
>And what, a system based on slavery and theft like National Socialism be put 
>in its place?   Perhaps a revival of Stalinism?

No, I had in mind a genuine democracy, rather than an allied farce.

>
>-pk 
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Dec 12 15:37:33 EST 2008
Article: 1965761 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Sylvia Stolz was locked up for what reason?
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Thu, 04 Dec 2008 10:18:26 +0200, holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene
Holman) wrote:

>In article , "Ben Cramer"
> wrote:
>
>> "Eugene Holman"  wrote in message 
>> news:holman-0312081933090001@ke-hupnet143-27.hupnet.helsinki.fi...
>
>
>
>> > Specifics, PLEASE!
>> >
>> > Give even a single examples of "publicity-seeking buffoonery" associated
>> > with the Holocaust.
>> 
>> Bloody hell, yougenie. One can hardly turn on the television these days 
>> without some shit head waffling about the "Holocaust(tm)" in some manner. 
>
>The Holocaust stands as a benchmark for human evil, so it is widely used
>as a resource or point of comparison. othing publicity seeking or
>buffoonish in that.
>
>> Some buffoon even managed to make mention of it, with emotive film tracks, 
>> during a documentary on the food shortate in Korea, ferchrissake.
>
>As was his right. Despite your use of the (tm), the Holocaust is in the
>public domain and used as an easily undrstood benchmark for cruelty and
>horror.

Jewish groups oppose that use, since their claim is that the
holocaust� is unique and incomparable to any other event. Their claim
is nonsense. There have been lots of similar excesses before and after
the holocaust�, so the holocaust� is only "special" because Jews were
persecuted rather than ordinary humans.

>
>> >> Why should Zundel be locked away?
>> >
>> > Because he went out of his way to show his contempt for and serially
>> > violate valid German laws, even when his violations resulted in an
>> > exchange between the German and the Canadian government.
>> 
>> He wasn't in Germany, dickhead. He was in Canada.
>
>He is a German citizen and was violating German laws remotely from Canada
>and the United States. As far as I understand it, you, as an Australian
>citizen, can get busted for having sex with children, thus violating
>*Australian* law, while on holiday in Bangkok. Australian law has
>provisions stipulating that they apply to Australian citizens, wherever
>they may be.
>
>Germany has similar laws concerning its citizens, as the recent episode
>with Dr. Toben demonstrated.
> 
>> Crap snipped.
>
>That is an index of your grasp of the issues.
>
>Regards,
>Eugene Holman


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Dec 12 15:37:33 EST 2008
Article: 1965762 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Sylvia Stolz was locked up for what reason?
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On Thu, 04 Dec 2008 17:24:07 +0200, holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene
Holman) wrote:

>In article , "Ben Cramer"
> wrote:
>
>> "Eugene Holman"  wrote in message 
>> news:holman-0412081018260001@ke-hupnet143-27.hupnet.helsinki.fi...
>
>
>
>> > The Holocaust stands as a benchmark for human evil, so it is widely used
>> > as a resource or point of comparison. othing publicity seeking or
>> > buffoonish in that.
>> 
>> You silly tosser. Of course it's publicity seeking. It's also marketing, 
>> promotion and profiteering from a grossly exaggerated, unable to be 
>> questioned, protected by legislation, yid creation.
>
>It is also a series of historical events, such as the 9/11 attacks or the
>assassination of John F. Kennedy, and is freely avalable for anyone to
>write, sing, or make films about. Questions are certainly asked about the
>Holocaust, and only in the countries that unleashed it (Germany, Austria)
>or were most severely victimized by it (France, Poland, Belgium,
>Lithuania, the czech Republic; Switzerland, Israel, and a few others) is
>there legislation prohibiting certain kinds of public discussion about it,
>this legislation being regarded as necessary by the governments of the
>countries concerned to scotch any efforts to deny, downplay, or justify
>what happened.
>
>> >> Some buffoon even managed to make mention of it, with emotive film 
>> >> tracks,
>> >> during a documentary on the food shortate in Korea, ferchrissake.
>
>Some people think that Kim Yong-Il is allowing a Holocaust to be committed
>on his own population. Of course the Holocaust, the best known and
>documented genocide in human history, is used as a benchmark.
>
>> > As was his right. Despite your use of the (tm), the Holocaust is in the
>> > public domain and used as an easily undrstood benchmark for cruelty and
>> > horror.
>> 
>> The Holocaust(tm) is a construct of Ilya Ehrenberg and the stinky yids.
>
>No, oh historically illiterate one. The Holocaust is a construct of Nazi
>racial ideology, German nationalism gone berserk, a thug-infected German
>government that could not be voted out of office, and a Wehrmacht with
>supporting police structures that thought that they had the right to be
>the owners of Europe.

You copied that out of an allied propaganda tract, didn't you? Germans
were and are rather less racist and nationalistic than Americans,
either then or now. The claim about "owning" Europe is silly allied
propaganda without any substance.

>
>> >> >> Why should Zundel be locked away?
>> >> >
>> >> > Because he went out of his way to show his contempt for and serially
>> >> > violate valid German laws, even when his violations resulted in an
>> >> > exchange between the German and the Canadian government.
>> >>
>> >> He wasn't in Germany, dickhead. He was in Canada.
>> >
>> > He is a German citizen and was violating German laws remotely from Canada
>> > and the United States.
>> 
>> What foolishness is this?
>
>It is known as extraterritoriality; the legal ability of a government to
>exercise authority and extend its laws to its citizens and residents when
>they are abroad as well as, in certain cases, to non-citizens who violate
>its laws remotely. Germany does not allow the sale of certain types of
>Nazi memorablia or, to give a completely different kind of example, of
>articles made from tiger skins, on its territory. Anyone, whether a German
>citizen or not, making these types of articles available for sale on
>German territory is violating German law and liable to be aprehended.
>Consequent to treaties signed by the EU countries, a person like Frederick
>Toben, a German citizen resident in Australia who violated German laws on
>public denial of the Holocaust by making a website containing such
>material available in Germany, does not have to be physically present in
>Germany for the German authorities to have a claim on him. 
> 
>> > As far as I understand it, you, as an Australian
>> > citizen, can get busted for having sex with children, thus violating
>> > *Australian* law, while on holiday in Bangkok. Australian law has
>> > provisions stipulating that they apply to Australian citizens, wherever
>> > they may be.
>> 
>> Hahahahahahahahaha. Ridiculous analogy.
>
>How so? Being a citizen of Austrailia legally obligates you not to engage
>in pedophilia, whether at home or abroad. Thus you can be prosecuted in
>Australia and under Australian law for pedophilia committed when on
>holiday in some other country.
> 
>> JacobsOn et al have already accused me of engaging in this disgustion 
>> perversion.
>
>I am certainly not accusing you of this. I am just using it as an example
>of extraterritoriality hat should be familiar to you.
>
>
>
>Regards,
>Eugene Holman


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Dec 12 15:37:35 EST 2008
Article: 1965764 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Sylvia Stolz was locked up for what reason?
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On Tue, 2 Dec 2008 23:30:23 -0500, "Patrick Keenan" 
wrote:

>
>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message 
>news:rrdaj4pcfe794114thnpgpm45cs9o7mc6t@4ax.com...
>> On Tue, 02 Dec 2008 13:21:56 +0200, holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene
>> Holman) wrote:
>>
>>>In article , "Ben Cramer"
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> "Eugene Holman"  wrote in message
>>>> news:holman-0212080743210001@c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi...
>>>
>>>
>>>> >
>>>> > Her client was Ernst Z�ndel, a German citizen accused of violating 
>>>> > German
>>>> > laws remotely from Canada and the United States.
>>>>
>>>> de minimis non curat lex
>>>
>>>Years of systematic violation of German laws from two countries and
>>>despite an official complaint to the Canadians from the German government
>>>is not a trivial matter.
>>
>> If there was to be a trial, it should have been held in Canada and not
>> in an authoritarian joke of a democracy like the BRD.
>>
>> The Canadian government caved in to demands by Jewish groups to have
>> Z�ndel deported to Germany,
>
>No, they did not.   Germany wasn't even trying to extradite Zundel.
>
>His problem was that lots of people know first-hand just what his effect on 
>society is - I personally remember the gangs of his followers and the street 
>beatings - and don't want him in Canada.  It's not just, as you mistakenly 
>seem to think, that Jews find him undesirable.

That is nonsense. I live in the GTA and the only violence was by
Z�nder's opponents, not by his "gang" of supporters.

>
>And he wasn't deported, either.   You have that wrong, too.   To be 
>deported, you have to have entered the country.  He hadn't.
>
>He was *not allowed entry* to Canada, though he *could* have just walked 
>across the border to the nearest cab rank after the US punted him for 
>breaking their laws.
>
>He stupidly chose - and it's hard to express just how stupid this choice 
>was - to apply for refugee status, despite the fact that he was applying for 
>this status in the very place he had fled.
>
>Most, if not all, of those who attempt to apply for refugee status in this 
>way are jailed.  It's no secret, and hasn't been for years.   This also 
>happens in the US, and they are not as polite about it as Canadians.
>
>Zundel chose jail over freedom, for reasons of his own.
>
>Perhaps he just likes the prison experience, since he also chose to stay 
>there for as long as possible.
>
>Zundel was refused entry because he has many violent friends and associates, 
>some of whom were jailed for attempting the armed overthrow of countries, 
>and some had clear ties to governments actively involved in terrroist acts 
>that resulted in many murders.    And he refused to talk about them, though 
>they posed  a threat to the country he was attempting to enter or gain 
>citizenship in.
>
>This is not the kind of person any country wants to accept.   His "beliefs", 
>or perhaps more accurately his sales pitches for pro-Nazi material (since 
>it's likely he does believe the Holocaust took place exactly as history 
>describes), don't come remotely close to the weight of those associations.
>
>Canada took him to Germany after his refugee application was denied, only 
>because he's a German citizen.
>
>He could not be sent back to his port of entry, the US, since he'd bricked 
>that door up by breaking US law.   And he'd surrendered his own choice of 
>country by insisting on going through the refugee process.   This was 
>entirely his own choice.
>
>
>> a country where Jesus would have been
>> deemed to have received a fair trial at the hands of Pontius Pilate.
>
>Oh please, stop being such a sissy about this.
>
>It's not like he went to Iran and suggested that Iranians should not follow 
>their leaders "like monkeys", which merits a death sentence.
>
>Either he believes what he says and will proudly stand up for it, or he 
>doesn't believe it and is looking for a way out.
>
>Do you think he believes his own crap or not?
>
>-pk
>
>
>>
>>>
>>>Non de minimis, sed de maximis egregiisque, curat lex.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Regards,
>>>Eugene Holman 
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Dec 12 15:37:35 EST 2008
Article: 1965772 of alt.revisionism
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Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Sylvia Stolz was locked up for what reason?
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On Tue, 02 Dec 2008 17:36:24 +0200, holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene
Holman) wrote:

>In article ,
>ebersdorf@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 02 Dec 2008 07:43:21 +0200, holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene
>> Holman) wrote:
>> 
>
>
>> >Her client was Ernst Z�ndel, a German citizen accused of violating German
>> >laws remotely from Canada and the United States.
>> >
>> >Instead of entering a plea of "not guilty" and leave it up to the courts
>> >to produce evidence to the contrary,
>> 
>> You're confusing theoretical American practice with Germany.
>
>Thanks for pointing this out. Actually, I was trying to simplify things
>for our readership. German law, like Finnish law, is based on the Roman
>tradition of codicils (�) and attributes, with the underlying philosophy
>being "everything is forbidden that is not specifically permitted". When
>you are charged with violating a law, the case against you is that you
>have committed a forbidden act that has the attributes enumerated in
>codicil number so-and-so. Your defense ("not guilty") is based upon
>showing that the act has the attributes of some less serious codicil or,
>in the ideal case, that the entire charge was based on faulty or
>inadmissible evidence. This is quite different from the English common law
>that most American law (Louisiana being a codil law maintaining exception)
>is based on where precedents and the specific individuals and situations
>involved in the case determine how it will be dealt with, and the
>dominating philosophy is "everything is allowed that is not specifically
>forbidden".
>
>I wonder how many people participating in this discussion are aware of
>these differences?
>
>> The
>> German legal system is based on Roman Law, and you are considered
>> guilty when you are charged. The obligation is on you to show that the
>> state's charges are wrong or that the state didn't have the right to
>> bring the charges in the first place. Ms. Stolz tried the second
>> approach and found that she herself had run afoul of ridiculous German
>> legislation.
>
>Anyone entering a courtroom and challenging the legitimacy of the court,
>its laws, and the state that it represents runs a high risk of suffering
>the fate meted out to Ms. Stolz.
>
>Why do you characterize the German legislation on this point as
>"ridiculous"? Any state would have reacted similarly to such a challenge
>to its legitimacy and authority.
>
>On another point, how do you think Germany's neighbors react if Germany
>were to repeal its laws on Holocaust denial, deprecation, and
>justification, and allow its citizenry feel good by denying that the
>atrocities committed by Germany during WW II were no worse than any
>atrocity committed by the allies?

The allies committed far more atrocities and at a significantly
greater scale than the Nazis ever did.

> Do you really think that countries such
>as Poland,

Poland gave us the largest ethnic cleansing in human history with the
elimination of the 14 million people resident in eastern Germany
between 1945 and 1950, an action resulting in the deaths of at least
four million of the fourteen million. At the usual ten-to-one exchange
rate, there are not enough Poles in existence to pay the bill. It may
be irrational, but when I encounter a Pole it is an intense internal
struggle to resist the urge to spit in his face.


> the Netherlands,

The Netherlands did not suffer that significantly under the German
occupation. Most of the damage and loss of life there were caused by
the so-called allied "liberators".

> and Russia, invaded, plundered, and ethnically
>cleansed by Nazi Germany would accept something like this without a strong
>reaction?

Most of the Russian casualties were the result of Stalin's choice of
campaign methods, not of German military action. Russia was no
"innocent victim" in any case, since Soviet forces were poised to
invade Germany by July of 1941. The German invasion was a pre-emption
to prevent that plan from going forward.

Germans owe no apologies to Russians for anything either before,
during, or after WW2. 


>
>
>
>Regards,
>Eugene Holman


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Dec 12 15:37:36 EST 2008
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On Tue, 2 Dec 2008 19:19:01 -0500, "Patrick Keenan" 
wrote:

>"Eugene Holman"  wrote in message 
>news:holman-0212080743210001@c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi...
>> In article
>> <06bd3e42-a014-41fb-b7c1-9a9e8b372503@j11g2000yqg.googlegroups.com>, Bent
>> Attorney  wrote:
>>
>>> On Dec 1, 3:10=A0pm, kmc...@shell.vex.net (Kenneth McVay OBC) wrote:
>>> > In article 
>>> > > 
>>>
>>> > >Now to brass tacks. =A0Why exactly do you say that 'what happened to 
>>> > >her
>>> > >was appropriate?' =A0Don't be like Eugene and hide behind legal
>>> > >statutes. =A0Say what's on your mind if you've the stones.
>>
>> Sylvia Stolz was a practicing courtroom lawyer. Thus, both her
>> professional competence and the place where she uses it are functions of
>> legal statutes.
>
>I think that there is a comparison that can be made with other lawyers, and 
>people in other professions.
>
>Professional practictioners who are in a position of authority, such as 
>doctors, lawyers, police officers, teachers and politicians, are often held 
>to a higher standard than non-professionals and must adhere to codes of 
>conduct that extend well outside their practice, but which certainly cover 
>Ms. Stoltz's courtroom behaviour.
>
>Disciplines are called that for a reason.  Professionals have extra 
>restrictions on their behaviour, and transgressions produce disciplinary 
>actions.
>
>If you examine the codes of conduct for various professions, you'll even 
>find references to activities intruding into private lives.   This is what 
>the "moral turptitude" clauses are about.
>
>But really, I think that this "argument" about free speech is just a 
>diversion by people who don't want to accept the consequences of their 
>expressed beliefs.
>
>If they really believed the value of this stuff, they would be marching into 
>jails, heads held high, not trying to weasel out of the consequences.
>
>Another example of that here is our "Mr. Cramer" being afraid that his words 
>might be presented to a public that doesn't inhabit this particular corner. 
>If he really believed them, he'd be glad for any opportunity to get his 
>ideas across.
>
>As if he actually had any ideas.
>
>-pk
>
>
>
>>
>> Her client was Ernst Z�ndel, a German citizen accused of violating German
>> laws remotely from Canada and the United States.
>>
>> Instead of entering a plea of "not guilty" and leave it up to the courts
>> to produce evidence to the contrary, she constructed a defense based on
>> her claim that the German state, its laws, and its court and legal system
>> were all illegitimate and thus had neither a case nor even jurisdiction
>> over Ernst Z�ndel and herself, both, she alleged, citizens of the German
>> *Reich* but not of what she regards as its illegitimate successor state,
>> the German Federal Republic. Needless to say, the court regarded such a
>> defense as contemptuous and seditious. When trying to make its case that
>> Z�ndel and Stolz were citizens of the German Federal Republic, and that
>> its laws and legal system do indeed apply to both of them, Stolz
>> interrupted the trial several times with filibustering and verbal
>> outbursts. When told to cease and disist from such obstructive behavior,
>> she refused to do so, claiming once again that the court had no
>> jurisdiction over her and could not order her to behave in a specific
>> manner. She was thus physically removed from the courtroom, kicking and
>> screaming, by the bailiffs, eventually being charged with obstructing
>> justice and multiple counts of contempt of court.
>>
>> I cannopt see how you can seriously claim that her eventual sentence amd
>> punishment for obstructing justice and contempt of court are simply a
>> matter of hiding behind legal statutes. I do not know of a country on this
>> planet where such behavior would not have resulted in severe punishment
>> for centempt of court and possibly sedition.
>>
>>> > She violated German law, which is probably why he thought the German
>>> > response was appropriate.
>>>
>>> Idiot as usual McVay.  German law bans free political speech you
>>> fucking slime.
>>
>> German law bans *certain types* of public speech, just as Canadian and
>> American law do. None of the three countries permits the kind of behavior
>> in the courtroom that Silvia Stolz exhibited. Saying "fuck" or "cunt" on
>> American daytime television or radio will get your broadcaster hit with a
>> half million dollar fine; in Germany or Austria saying the equivalent is
>> perfectly legal. On the other hand, claiming that the Nazi government did
>> not kill Jews on German or Austrian radio or television will get you into
>> trouble big time, even though it wpuld be perfectly legal in the United
>> States.
>>
>> No country has completely free speech, political or otherwise. All
>> countries have laws defining what counts as legal and illegal speech, even
>> though the history and culture of the country concerned play a large role
>> in determing what is and is not permissible. For easily understood
>> reasons, Germany, Austria, and most of Germany and Austria's neighbors
>> have and rigorously enforce laws criminalizing the denial, deprecation, or
>> attempted justification of the crimes against humanity committed by
>> Hitlerite Germany.
>>
>> Ernst Z�ndel chose to violate these laws, while Sylvia Stolz chose to
>> challenge the legitimacy of the state that promulgated and enforces these
>> laws by demonstrating her contempt for it and its legal system and
>> procedures. Hence their present status as guests of the German penal
>> system.
>>
>> 
>>
>> Regards,
>> Eugene Holman 
>

Mr. Keenan, if the legal arguments of Ms. Stolz made on behalf of her
client were invalid, then the correct action for the court would have
been simply to reject the arguments, not to imprison the lawyer for
her arguments.

This action is clearly an attempt by the BRD to intimidate the legal
profession so that future defendants in the position of Mr. Z�ndel
will find it impossible to get a lawyer, since the lawyers would be
afraid to take the case for fear of the possible repercussions to them
personally.

Political justice is not justice at all. Sadly, there really isn't
that much difference between today's BRD legal system and the courts
of Justice Freisler during the NS period.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Dec 12 15:37:37 EST 2008
Article: 1965774 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Sylvia Stolz was locked up for what reason?
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On Tue, 02 Dec 2008 16:00:43 +0200, holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene
Holman) wrote:

>In article
><1377f04e-a24e-41c2-a545-54127611b6d9@33g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>, Bent
>Attorney  wrote:
>
>> On Dec 2, 1:07=A0am, hol...@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman) wrote:
>> > In article
>> > <6c9ca288-7834-4cad-9f22-f670294c0...@o2g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>, Bent
>
>
>
>> > > Do you actually expect me to read anything further that was written by
>> > > you when you come up with such a stupid statement?
>> >
>> > It's not a stupid statement at all.
>> >
>> > You criticize Germany for criminalizing certain types of public speech
>> > while accepting that Canada, the United States, and many other countries
>> > also criminalize certain types of public speech.
>> 
>> I've never stated that I accept that it's ok for some countries to
>> criminalize certain types of 'political' speech.  Note that this
>> thread concerns itself with 'political' speech, and not necessarily
>> 'public' speech.
>
>Public acts are by nature political acts, since they necessarly involve
>the citizenry, cf. Greek polit�s 'citizen'.
>
>> Shouting 'fire' in a crowded theater is not what we're talking
>> about.
>> 
>> >The "Oh, but that's
>> > different" argument doesn't work.
>> 
>> Yes it does work.
>> Shouting 'fire' in a crowded theater is different from doing research
>> and coming to the conclusion that killing gas chambers did not exist.
>
>The difference is not as great as you think.
>
>If there is no fire, and I cry "Fire!" nevertheless, I am performing a
>speech act that is in contradiction to the emprically verifiable state of
>affairs.

The false call of "fire" in a crowded theatre has the potential to
cause death and injury to significant numbers of people as a result of
possible resulting panic.


>If I do it deliberately, I am lying, but I can also interpret my
>surroundings incorrectly - smell smoke and jump to unjustified
>conclusions, for example � and be making a mistake.
>
>If there were gas chambers, and I proclaim "There were no gas chambers!"
>nevertheless, I am performing a speech act that is in contradiction to a
>previous existing state of affairs,

Nobody is physically threatened with bodily harm as a result of the
disputation of some historical claim, quite unlike the example of the
false call of "fire" in a crowded theatre.

The only result of historical criticism is that proponents of the
claim being debunked are offended. If people don't have the right to
offend political opponents, then they have no rights at all.




>one which has been upheld for more
>than half a century and is based upon the verdicts reached by courts of
>law and historians in more than a dozen countries. If I do it
>deliberately, I am not only lying, but, in the manner in which these
>issues are understood in Germany and many Euripean countires, I am also
>demonstrating contempt for the community of legal scholars, judges,
>governments, and historians who came to and have held the conclusion
>previously. The alternative is that my research was flawed and that I have
>made a mistake.
>
>We all know that the first person to do research ad come to the conclusion
>that killing gas chambers did not exist was the self-styled execution
>technology expert Fred Leuchter back in 1988. We also know that:
>
>1. His initial assumption, that a Nazi genocidal gas chamber would somehow
>resembe an American execution gas chamber was false.
>
>2. His understanding of the lethal properties of te cyanide gas rleased by
>Zklon-B with respect to humans as opposed to inscts was erroneous.
>
>3. His sampling techniques were flawed.
>
>4. The sampling technique used by Alpha Laboratories was flawed, because
>the technicians there were given the wrong instructions.
>
>5. Leuchter gave quantitative interpretations to data that only had
>qualitative validity.
>
>6. Leuchter collected samples from one gas chamber at Auschwitz-Stammlager
>that had been museumified after the war, one ruin and three foundations of
>a gas chamber at Auschwitz-Birkenau, all four of which had been exposed to
>the elements since 1945.
>
>7. He also collected samples from one gas chamber at Majdanek that had
>been preserved intact.
>
>8. He found traces of exposure to cyanide in the samples collected from
>all the sites that had allegedly served as gas chambers at both Auschwitz
>and Majdanek.
> 
>9. He explained the presence of such traces as being the consequence of
>undocumented fumigations rather than of gassings, for which there was both
>documentation and eyewitness reports.
>
>10. He claimed that the structures in question could not have been used
>as  gas chambers since they lacked the engineering safety features of
>American gas chambers and did not conform to the standards for excecuting
>prisoners with gas that were valid in California during the 1980s.
>
>11. He failed to understand that it takes far higher concentrations of
>cyanide to fumigate a premise than it does to kill people, for which
>reason any place that can be fumigated with cyanide can accommodate the
>far lower concentration of cyanide needed to kill people.
>
>12. The control that he used was a fumigation chamber. The figures for
>traces of cyanide compounds that he found there were more than a hundred
>times the highest reading that he obtained for a gas chamber. 
>
>13. However, he neglected to take into consideration that the gas chambers
>had to be washed down after each gassing and frequently whitewashed to
>destroy any tell-tale evidence of foul play, while the fumigation chambers
>did not have to be so maintained. Additionally, the gas chambers at
>Auscvhwitz had been museumified or exposed to the elements for more than
>four decades, while the fumigation chambers had not been. 
>
>14. The clear blue blotches that Leuchter found on the walls of the
>Majdanek gas chamber indicated to the naked eye that the premises had been
>exposed to concentrations of cyanide far in exces of what is needd to kill
>people.
>
>15. Thus, Leuchter was forced to argue on the bases of his preconceptions:
>the lack of gasketing and other engineering safety features at the
>mueumification at Auschwitz-Stammlager, the ruins and foundation at
>Auschwitz-Birkenau, and the intact gas chamber at Majdanek forced him to
>conclude that these structures could not have functioned like American
>execution gas chambers, and the undeniable presence of evidence of
>previous exposure to cyanide, in some instances more than four decades
>previously, were the consequence of fumigations which, in his opinion, did
>not require engineering safety featyures even if they used concentrations
>of cyanide far higher than what is necessary to kill people.
>
>16. He also claimed that carbon monoxide is an unsuitable lethal aganet
>for executing people trapped in a sealed, air-tight room because it acts
>so slowly that they would die of suffocuation before it poisoned them.
>
>
>Leuchter obviosuly did a lot of research, but his premises and conclusions
>are easily seen to be flawed, for which reason the concusions that he
>draws are mistaken. Simply put, an enclosed room that can be fumigated
>using the cyanide generated by Zyklon-B can certainly be used to kill any
>people trapped in it with a far lower dosage of Zyklon-B. Additionally,
>Zyklon-B was specifically invented to allow normally constructed rooms,
>buildings, railroad cars, ships, and even tents, noe of them having
>engineering safety features, to be exposed to concentrations of cyanide
>high enough to perform a fumigation and thus, by logical implication, high
>enough to kill humans.
>
> 
>> >Why can I say *Fotze* 'cunt' or *bumsen*
>> > 'fuck' on German daytime television or radio and not get into trouble, bu=
>> t
>> > if I say the same words in English on American daytime broadcasting the
>> > FCC will slap the broadcaster with a half million dollar fine? Which is
>> > more dangerous to society, Anglo-Saxon monosyllables for basic biological
>> > structures and activities or public denial, deprecation, or attempted
>> > justiciation of crimes that wrecked a continent and claimed the lives of
>> > tens of millions of innocent people? Bent Attorney, thy name is not
>> > logical consistency.
>
>
>> 
>> Your last statements are crap.  They don't prove anything.  To the
>> uninitiated you may seem wonderful and all, but you don't fool me.
>> Especially with this 'thy' crap.
>
>You don't understand the issue.
>
>In Germany it is permissible to say the equivalent of *cunt* and to *fuck*
>on daytiome television, but illegal to deny the Holocaust. In the US the
>opposite holds. My position is that we are not dealing with a moral issue
>in either case or in either culture. The two types of public behavior are
>treated differently in the two jurisdictions because of the different
>histories and standards that have resulted in the laws that are valid in
>the two countries.
>
>Regards,
>Eugene Holman


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Dec 12 15:37:39 EST 2008
Article: 1965775 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Sylvia Stolz was locked up for what reason?
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On Tue, 02 Dec 2008 18:01:20 +0200, holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene
Holman) wrote:

>In article ,
>ebersdorf@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 02 Dec 2008 08:07:47 +0200, holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene
>> Holman) wrote:
>> 
>
>> 
>> In Canada, unlike Germany, you will not be imprisoned for political
>> opinions if the opinions fall short of advocating violent overthrow of
>> the government. You will certainly not be imprisoned for having views
>> on a historical event that differ from the views of the powers that
>> be. Modern Germany is a cruel farce masquerading as a democracy.
>
>Canada did not invade the United States, Mexico, Cuba, or Guatamala and
>embark upon an unprecedented campaign of conquest, pillage, and ethnic
>cleansing in them.

No, Eugene, the USA invaded Canada, Mexico, Cuba, Guatemala and all
other states in both north and south America. The USA is the most
violent and warlike state in human history.

Germany, by contrast, acted in response to allied actions. Recovering
stolen property is not generally a crime, except possibly in the eyes
of the thief. The charges of pillage and ethnic cleansing are mainly
allied propaganda. Those actions are more characteristic of the allies
than they ever were of German forces.


> Had it done so and been soundly defeated, you can be
>damned sure that there would be laws on the books prohibiting Canadians
>fram publicly claiming that it never happened, or that the neighbors
>deserved it. You can be equally sure that the countries victimized by
>Canada would be quick to protest against any public political discourse
>there or in their own countries claiming that proven history is a meer
>victors' fantasy.
>
>Deutschland: ein schwieriges Vaterland. 

That is racist crap.


>
>
>Regards,
>Eugene Holman


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Dec 12 15:37:39 EST 2008
Article: 1966504 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Sylvia Stolz was locked up for what reason?
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On Sun, 07 Dec 2008 07:55:37 +0200, holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene
Holman) wrote:

>In article , "Ben Cramer"
> wrote:
>
>> "Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message 
>> news:ebskj414d7c0o79f2qglsa7509bnishm26@4ax.com...
>
>
>> >>No, oh historically illiterate one. The Holocaust is a construct of Nazi
>> >>racial ideology, German nationalism gone berserk, a thug-infected German
>> >>government that could not be voted out of office, and a Wehrmacht with
>> >>supporting police structures that thought that they had the right to be
>> >>the owners of Europe.
>> >
>> > You copied that out of an allied propaganda tract, didn't you? 
>
>
>
>No. It is a summary based on my knowledge of 20th century German history.
>
>For Nazi racist ideology read the ravings of Adolf Hitler, Julius
>Streicher, and Alfred Rosenberg.

One can also read the ravings of many allied politicians. If it didn't
actually happen, it doesn't matter.

>
>For German nationalism gone wild, consider why the Allies decided that
>Germans would henceforth only b allowed to sing the third verse of their
>national anthem.

It wasn't the allies who decided that, and it isn't a matter of
"allowed". Fallersleben's complete poem is the German national anthem,
although only the third verse is used for official occasions.

>
>For a thug-infested German government tat could not be voted out of
>office, consider the careers of Adolf Hitler, Reynhard Heydrich, Heinrich
>Himmler, Josef G�bbels, Hermann G�ring, and Roland Freisler.
>
>> > Germans
>> > were and are rather less racist and nationalistic than Americans,
>> > either then or now. 
>
>Now, probably. Back then, certainly not. Although they adored Jesse Owens,
>they also had laws on the books authorizing the sterilization of
>African-Germans.

What is an African-German? The number of black people resident in
Germany pre-occupation could have been counted on the fingers of one
hand. The first black person my mother had ever seen, other than in
books, was postwar, and he was an American occupier.

It is Americans who are the world's principal racists.

>
>> > The claim about "owning" Europe is silly allied
>> > propaganda without any substance.
>
>Absorbing Austria, Luxembourg, Warteland, and the Sudetenland, occupying
>part of France, Poland, the UK (the Channel Islands), and the USSR, and
>all of Greece, Belgium, the Netherlands, Norway, and Denmark, as well as
>part of Italy and Hungary is what Germany did between 1938 and 1945. That
>is not "allied propaganda" but cold fact.

Austria was part of Germany since the 9th century, and its residents
are German-speaking as well as being ethnically German. Austria
rejoined Germany as a result of a plebiscite.

Luxemburg was never annexed to Germany.

Warteland was a Polish theft

Sudentenland was a Czech theft. The residents were not Czechs and they
hated the overlordship of the Czechs. The area should never have been
assigned to the Czechs in the first place.

The rest of your list was temporary military necessity and does not
lend any support to your ridiculous hypothesis.
>
>
>
>> Yougenie is a master at locating or "discovering" convenient articles to 
>> support his specious nonsense.
>
>Are you insinuating that it is untrue that Germany occupied the countries
>and territories in question?

Germany did what was militarily necessary for her survival, and that
includes the occupation of certain key areas in her environment.

>
>Cramer is a master of nothing. Since he evidently doesn't know the history
>of WW II, he dismisses a factual account of it as nonsense.
> 
>> He his legion for his methods of distorting facts, figures and empirical 
>> evidence to provide the answers he needs.
>> 
>> A professional liar, him.
>
>Claims a person totally ignorant of the facts. Being totally ignorant of
>the facts, you lack the prerequisites for distinguishing truth from lies.
>
>
>
>Regards,
>Eugene Holman


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Dec 12 15:37:41 EST 2008
Article: 1966505 of alt.revisionism
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Subject: Re: Sylvia Stolz was locked up for what reason?
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On Sun, 07 Dec 2008 04:49:21 GMT, "Kurt Knoll" 
wrote:

>Check the statistic who did do the rationing of food after the war was over 
>who did all the manipulating. Get of your comic books and get yourself a 
>proper education.

Eugene specializes in comic-book history.

>Kurt Knoll.
>
>"I'll Always Be Here"  wrote in message 
>news:Xns9B6CC36B2A4EETheonlyonethatcares@87.106.137.111...
>> "Kurt Knoll"  wrote in
>> news:7fF_k.3299$si6.94@edtnps83:
>>
>>> Nothing new here what did happen to the food the Germans still did have
>>> after 1945 who did get it.
>>
>>
>> What food. After they screwed up by killing their farmers and after all
>> the other European countries were set free, germany and germans were free
>> to eat every bit of their own food, just like the other countries.
>>
>> Germans were set at starvation lever by the
>>> Americans just as soon the war was over.
>>
>> No they weren't.
>>
>>
>>
>> When the cold war against
>>> Russians started the Americans needed the Germans a guinea big and this
>>> was when things start changing around.
>>
>>
>> Yes, they started to grow their own crops. Berliners got the largesse
>> provided by the airlift and cowards like you left. Everything was fine.
>>
>>
>>
>>> Kurt Knoll
>>>
>>> "I'll Always Be Here"  wrote in message
>>> news:Xns9B6CA1E4EDF64Theonlyonethatcares@87.106.137.111...
>>>> "Kurt Knoll"  wrote in
>>>> news:I3E_k.2959$yK5.2232@edtnps82:
>>>>
>>>>> And what did happen to the German treasure the Americans did blunder
>>>>> from the Germans.
>>>>
>>>> What happened to the treasure the germans plundered from the rest of
>>>> Europe?
>>>>
>>>> What did happen to the food the germans plundered from the rest of
>>>> Europe: children died so you could eat.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Who did blunder the German art galleries after 1945 ?.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Who did plunder the European art galleries during 1939-1945?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Do not throw rocks if you are in the glasshouse yourself.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Do not throw rocks at the people who fed you while they died for your
>>>> pleasure.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Kurt Knoll.
>>>>>
>>>>> .
>>>>> Kurt Knoll.
>>>>>
>>>>> "I'll Always Be Here"  wrote in message
>>>>> news:Xns9B6C9B9ADCEA8Theonlyonethatcares@87.106.137.111...
>>>>>> Johannes von Ebersdorf  wrote in
>>>>>> news:3e1lj4te49cgbjrcb1nh4iu93m5ttnjvl1@4ax.com:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Tue, 02 Dec 2008 18:01:20 +0200, holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene
>>>>>>> Holman) wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>In article ,
>>>>>>>>ebersdorf@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 02 Dec 2008 08:07:47 +0200, holman@mappi.helsinki.fi
>>>>>>>>> (Eugene Holman) wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In Canada, unlike Germany, you will not be imprisoned for
>>>>>>>>> political opinions if the opinions fall short of advocating
>>>>>>>>> violent overthrow of the government. You will certainly not be
>>>>>>>>> imprisoned for having views on a historical event that differ from
>>>>>>>>> the views of the powers that be. Modern Germany is a cruel farce
>>>>>>>>> masquerading as a democracy.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Canada did not invade the United States, Mexico, Cuba, or Guatamala
>>>>>>>>and embark upon an unprecedented campaign of conquest, pillage, and
>>>>>>>>ethnic cleansing in them.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No, Eugene, the USA invaded Canada, Mexico, Cuba, Guatemala and all
>>>>>>> other states in both north and south America. The USA is the most
>>>>>>> violent and warlike state in human history.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The USA, acted in response to foreign actions. Recovering stolen
>>>>>> property is not generally a crime, except possibly in the eyes of the
>>>>>> thief. The charges of pillage and ethnic cleansing are mainly
>>>>>> bullshit propaganda. Those actions are more characteristic of the
>>>>>> German forces than they ever were of Allied forces.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Germany, by contrast, acted in response to allied actions.
>>>>>>> Recovering stolen property is not generally a crime, except possibly
>>>>>>> in the eyes of the thief. The charges of pillage and ethnic
>>>>>>> cleansing are mainly allied propaganda. Those actions are more
>>>>>>> characteristic of the allies than they ever were of German forces.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Had it done so and been soundly defeated, you can be
>>>>>>>>damned sure that there would be laws on the books prohibiting
>>>>>>>>Canadians fram publicly claiming that it never happened, or that the
>>>>>>>>neighbors deserved it. You can be equally sure that the countries
>>>>>>>>victimized by Canada would be quick to protest against any public
>>>>>>>>political discourse there or in their own countries claiming that
>>>>>>>>proven history is a meer victors' fantasy.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Deutschland: ein schwieriges Vaterland.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That is racist crap.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Regards,
>>>>>>>>Eugene Holman
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> 
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Dec 12 15:37:41 EST 2008
Article: 1966506 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Sylvia Stolz was locked up for what reason?
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Sun, 07 Dec 2008 20:41:23 GMT, "Kurt Knoll" 
wrote:

>
>"Kenneth McVay OBC"  wrote in message 
>news:-O6dnRPMgIhus6HUnZ2dnUVZ_jOdnZ2d@vex.net...
>> In article ,
>> Kurt Knoll  wrote:
>>>Check the statistic who did do the rationing of food after the war was 
>>>over
>>>who did all the manipulating. Get of your comic books and get yourself a
>>>proper education.
>>
>> The only reason there was no rationing in Germany during the war, Frau
>> Pikelhaube, is because Hitler raped all of Europe just to keep your
>> worthless ass alive while Europeans starved and Monowitz slaves got 300
>> calories a day from your SS heros. You should be thankful that Ike didn't 
>> let all of you starve to death.
>>
>
>
>You are lying again we all did food stamps when the war was on
>what do you think was the reason for it
>Kurt Knoll.

Kenneth is a bit of an ignorant jackass and not worth reading. He
pushes the usual allied comic-book history.

>
>> "We all know it but they will have us believe they have absolutely no
>> influence on governments. Not believing it would be anti emetic."
>> (Kurt Knoll, Kitimat, B.C.'s Leading Revisionist Scholar)
>> The Nizkor Project:                    http://www.nizkor.org/ 
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Dec 12 15:37:41 EST 2008
Article: 1966507 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Toeben Set Free, Case thrown out of court!
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Sun, 07 Dec 2008 07:33:28 -0600, Sara Salzman
 wrote:

>In article ,
> Gord McFee  wrote:
>
>> On 12/3/2008 1:58 AM, Ben Cramer wrote:
>> 
>> > "Sara Salzman"  wrote in message 
>> > news:catamont-721F11.06350402122008@[216.196.97.131.in-addr.arpa]...
>> >> In article , Eli
>> >> Grubman  wrote:
>> >> 
>> >>> On Mon, 01 Dec 2008 19:34:23 -0600, Sara Salzman 
>> >>>  wrote:
>> >>> 
>> >>>> In article , Daniel
>> >>>> Bernard  wrote:
>> >>>> 
>> >>>>> On Mon, 01 Dec 2008 06:44:18 -0600, Sara Salzman 
>> >>>>>  wrote:
>> >>>>> 
>> >>>>>> Another fact-free assertion from Mr. Cramer. Billions?
>> >>>>>> Where is the DATA to support that statement, Mr. Cramer?
>> >>>>> We ask the questions here, Schmaltzmann. -- amicalement,
>> >>>>> 
>> >>>>> Daniel
>> >>>> Another member of the Idiot Patrol heard from.
>> >>> Shut the fuck up, Schmaltzman, you obnoxious jew cunt.
>> >>> 
>> >>> Eli
>> >> And the third Idiot pipes up.
>> > 
>> > Yep. You turn up on demand.
>> > 
>> > It's not kosher to commence a sentence with a conjunction, old girl.
>> 
>> Really, illiterate one?  Would you like to engage in a little "who makes
>> the most grammar and syntax mistakes" contest?
>
>Of course, we could mention the famous response Winston Churchill once 
>gave to some moron with Mr. Cramer's opinion, but I'm sure Mr. Cramer 
>would stamp his little feet and insist that Churchill was a) illiterate; 
>b) a stinky yid; and/or c) misquoted by a stinky yid.

Churchill's poor judgement destroyed the British Empire.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Dec 12 15:37:42 EST 2008
Article: 1966509 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Toeben Set Free, Case thrown out of court!
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Sun, 07 Dec 2008 19:03:05 -0500, Gord McFee 
wrote:

>On Sun, 07 Dec 2008 07:33:28 -0600, in
>, Sara Salzman
> wrote:
>
>> In article ,
>>  Gord McFee  wrote:
>> 
>> > On 12/3/2008 1:58 AM, Ben Cramer wrote:
>> > 
>> > > "Sara Salzman"  wrote in message 
>> > > news:catamont-721F11.06350402122008@[216.196.97.131.in-addr.arpa]...
>> > >> In article , Eli
>> > >> Grubman  wrote:
>> > >> 
>> > >>> On Mon, 01 Dec 2008 19:34:23 -0600, Sara Salzman 
>> > >>>  wrote:
>> > >>> 
>> > >>>> In article , Daniel
>> > >>>> Bernard  wrote:
>> > >>>> 
>> > >>>>> On Mon, 01 Dec 2008 06:44:18 -0600, Sara Salzman 
>> > >>>>>  wrote:
>> > >>>>> 
>> > >>>>>> Another fact-free assertion from Mr. Cramer. Billions?
>> > >>>>>> Where is the DATA to support that statement, Mr. Cramer?
>> > >>>>> We ask the questions here, Schmaltzmann. -- amicalement,
>> > >>>>> 
>> > >>>>> Daniel
>> > >>>> Another member of the Idiot Patrol heard from.
>> > >>> Shut the fuck up, Schmaltzman, you obnoxious jew cunt.
>> > >>> 
>> > >>> Eli
>> > >> And the third Idiot pipes up.
>> > > 
>> > > Yep. You turn up on demand.
>> > > 
>> > > It's not kosher to commence a sentence with a conjunction, old girl.
>> > 
>> > Really, illiterate one?  Would you like to engage in a little "who makes
>> > the most grammar and syntax mistakes" contest?
>> 
>> Of course, we could mention the famous response Winston Churchill once 
>> gave to some moron with Mr. Cramer's opinion, but I'm sure Mr. Cramer 
>> would stamp his little feet and insist that Churchill was a) illiterate; 
>> b) a stinky yid; and/or c) misquoted by a stinky yid.
>
>Exactly.

Churchill said lots of things, many of them totally outrageous. He was
himself a racist, general bigot, and white-supremacist.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Dec 12 15:37:42 EST 2008
Article: 1966510 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hitler's good things
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Sat, 6 Dec 2008 08:34:52 -0800 (PST), Peter Dopey
 wrote:

>A thought occurred to me a few minutes ago:
>
>Suppose Hitler would have won the war. He would have exterminated all
>the Jews. But then? Quite probably he would als have killed homo's,
>gypsies, blacks.

That is all baseless conjecture from the allied comic-book version of
history. It was Americans who were/are anti-black.

>
>But that would not have solved crime and all the problems of the
>German society.

Germany, then as now, had one of the world's lowest crime rates. What
the hell are you babbling about?

> Also, it would not have made the white people a
>"better" race.

Hitler was not a white supremacist, he was an Aryan supremacist, a
much narrower focus and one holding much less public appeal. 

>I am sure Hitler would have begun to kill low white
>life-forms like Kurt, the parents of Ben Cramer and Heinrich, etc.,
>etc., etcs.

Your wet dreams are your problem.

>
>Suddenly Hitler becomes a bit less of a monster to me (but not really,
>I hasten to say).


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Dec 12 15:37:43 EST 2008
Article: 1966511 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hitler's good things
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Sat, 6 Dec 2008 18:10:29 +0100, "Heinrich" 
wrote:

>
>"Peter Dopey"  schreef in bericht 
>news:6391cae8-e624-4d74-b51d-9888bed376a8@r36g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>>A thought occurred to me a few minutes ago:
> the next time donot bother to let us know 

Dopey is a good pseudonym for this ridiculous jackass.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Dec 12 15:37:43 EST 2008
Article: 1966512 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Germany still hunts Toben....
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Sat, 6 Dec 2008 10:03:47 -0800 (PST), Peter Dopey
 wrote:

>On 6 dec, 18:56, "Kurt Knoll"  wrote:
>> Very interesting but the Jews are allowed to keep on hate mongering whenever
>> they want.. who gives the Germans and their masters the right to victimize
>> whole nations. to me it seems they do have a lot to hide. Honest they have
>> never been.
>> Kurt Knoll.
>>
>> "Heinrich"  wrote in message
>>
>> news:6pvpreFa44ktU1@mid.individual.net...
>>
>>
>>
>> > Holocaust reductionist Dr. Frederick Toben, freed by a British court from
>> > the German/EU charge that he questioned the official 6-million figure and
>> > methods of the Holocaust, thought he was a free man last month. German
>> > authorities gave up their attempt in the English courts to have him
>> > deported to Germany for trial and almost certain imprisonment.
>>
>> > Now, he is a hunted man again. Andreas Grossman �the Mannheim prosecutor
>> > who put Toben's reductionist friends, Ernst Zundel and Germar Rudolph, in
>> > prison says, "England will not extradite him, but we will continue to
>> > attempt to have him arrested in other countries." (Associated Press,
>> > "Germany Pursues Arrest of Well-known Holocaust Denier Set Free by UK
>> > Court," 24/11/2008)
>>
>> > German "Holocaust denial" hate laws are unique for two reasons: First,
>> > penetration of Germany with "hate speech" via the internet is considered
>> > just as much an indictable crime as if one actually committed the offense
>> > on German soil. Second, the German government is empowered to seek
>> > extradition of anyone in the world if they publicly lessen the 6-million
>> > figure or doubt that gas chambers and crematoria were primary means of
>> > killing such vast numbers of Jews.
>>
>> > Since Germany also attempted to deport Toben for "anti-Semitism," it is
>> > possible Germany might also demand extradition of those who criticize
>> > matters Jewish.
>>
>> > Could Germany Come for You?
>>
>> > Germany's determination to apprehend Toben across international boundaries
>> > should frighten us all. Israeli "Nazi hunters" for nearly 60 years have
>> > disregarded national sovereignties and laws to bring those accused of
>> > assisting the Holocaust to justice in Israel. Now, under Jewish-inspired
>> > German Holocaust denial laws, just questioning the extent of the Holocaust
>> > on the internet is evidently considered a similar offense.
>>
>> > Can Toben escape extradition? Probably not in countries unsympathetic to
>> > independent reexamination of the Holocaust. These include the U.S.,
>> > Canada, and Toben's Australia. Germar Rudolph and Ernst Zundel couldn't
>> > find sanctuary.
>>
>> > Toben was arrested at Heathrow Airport in London on October 1 en route to
>> > Dubai. Maybe he should book another flight to that anti-Zionist country,
>> > steering very clear of Europe!
>>
>> > As for the rest of us, who inadvertently violate German cyberspace by
>> > freely questioning on the internet..
>>
>> > Where shall we flee?- Tekst uit oorspronkelijk bericht niet weergeven -
>>
>> - Tekst uit oorspronkelijk bericht weergeven -
>
>"the Germans and their masters the right to victimize
>whole nations. to me it seems they do have a lot to hide. Honest they
>have
>never been."
>
>Esp. not from 1933 to 1945 I might add.

Most of what has come out of Washington since 1776 has been lies, and
the British have been telling lies for at least the last 500 years, so
what is your point?


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Dec 12 15:37:44 EST 2008
Article: 1966514 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Germany still hunts Toben....
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Sun, 7 Dec 2008 08:52:13 +1000, "Ben Cramer"
 wrote:

>Oy vey.
>
>The Germans had better commence construction of thousands of new jails to 
>hold the majority of the world's population.
>
>Most people don't believe the yids' stupid story but don't care enough about 
>it to voice their opinions publicly.

The world should be fine, Ben. Modern Germany is the kind of place
where your thoughts are free, but don't even think about voicing them,
or you may find yourself before some court charged with propaganda
offences against the allied comic-book version of WW2.



>
>"Heinrich"  wrote in message 
>news:6pvpreFa44ktU1@mid.individual.net...
>> Holocaust reductionist Dr. Frederick Toben, freed by a British court from 
>> the German/EU charge that he questioned the official 6-million figure and 
>> methods of the Holocaust, thought he was a free man last month. German 
>> authorities gave up their attempt in the English courts to have him 
>> deported to Germany for trial and almost certain imprisonment.
>>
>> Now, he is a hunted man again. Andreas Grossman  the Mannheim prosecutor 
>> who put Toben's reductionist friends, Ernst Zundel and Germar Rudolph, in 
>> prison says, "England will not extradite him, but we will continue to 
>> attempt to have him arrested in other countries." (Associated Press, 
>> "Germany Pursues Arrest of Well-known Holocaust Denier Set Free by UK 
>> Court," 24/11/2008)
>>
>> German "Holocaust denial" hate laws are unique for two reasons: First, 
>> penetration of Germany with "hate speech" via the internet is considered 
>> just as much an indictable crime as if one actually committed the offense 
>> on German soil. Second, the German government is empowered to seek 
>> extradition of anyone in the world if they publicly lessen the 6-million 
>> figure or doubt that gas chambers and crematoria were primary means of 
>> killing such vast numbers of Jews.
>>
>> Since Germany also attempted to deport Toben for "anti-Semitism," it is 
>> possible Germany might also demand extradition of those who criticize 
>> matters Jewish.
>>
>>
>> Could Germany Come for You?
>>
>> Germany's determination to apprehend Toben across international boundaries 
>> should frighten us all. Israeli "Nazi hunters" for nearly 60 years have 
>> disregarded national sovereignties and laws to bring those accused of 
>> assisting the Holocaust to justice in Israel. Now, under Jewish-inspired 
>> German Holocaust denial laws, just questioning the extent of the Holocaust 
>> on the internet is evidently considered a similar offense.
>>
>> Can Toben escape extradition? Probably not in countries unsympathetic to 
>> independent reexamination of the Holocaust. These include the U.S., 
>> Canada, and Toben's Australia. Germar Rudolph and Ernst Zundel couldn't 
>> find sanctuary.
>>
>> Toben was arrested at Heathrow Airport in London on October 1 en route to 
>> Dubai. Maybe he should book another flight to that anti-Zionist country, 
>> steering very clear of Europe!
>>
>> As for the rest of us, who inadvertently violate German cyberspace by 
>> freely questioning on the internet..
>>
>> Where shall we flee?
>> 


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Dec 12 15:37:44 EST 2008
Article: 1966520 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: NAZI Plunder of Europe
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On Sun, 07 Dec 2008 20:35:57 GMT, "Kurt Knoll" 
wrote:

>Well Kenneth and how much of the German treasure the Americans plundered 
>from Germany is still in America. My oldest brother was in Denmark brought 
>home some Danish cheese and paid for it in the store. Can you proof he stole 
>it. You are nothing but a lying bustard and we all know it.
>Kurt Knoll.

Kenny's table is nonsense. The French stole coal from Germany for
generations, not the other way around. Any German looting was trivial
compared to allied excesses postwar. Why would anybody steal inferior
coal from France, when the Ruhr basin has a major portion of the
world's reserves of high-grade coal?

Germany got the bulk of its iron ore from Sweden, whose ore is
dramatically better than the French ore which has a high sulphur
content.

Bauxite does not exist in significant quantities in France. Even huge
countries like Canada and the USA have very little of it.

Kenny is simply full of shit.



>
>
>"Kenneth McVay OBC"  wrote in message 
>news:-O6dnRLMgIgCraHUnZ2dnUVZ_jOdnZ2d@vex.net...
>> http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/imt/tgmwc/tgmwc-01/tgmwc-01-01-04.html
>>
>> 1. Western Countries :
>>
>> There was plundered from the Western Countries from 1940 to 1944, works of
>> art, artistic objects, pictures, plastics, furniture, textiles, antique
>> pieces and similar articles of enormous value to the number of 21,903.
>>
>> In France statistics show the following:
>>
>> REMOVAL OF RAW MATERIALS
>>
>> Coal ..................................... 63,000,000 tons
>> Electric energy ............................. 20,976 kw
>> Petrol and fuel ...................... 1,943,750 tons
>> Iron ore ................................ 74,848,000 tons
>> Siderurgical products.......... 3,822,000 tons
>> Bauxite ................................... 1,211,800 tons
>> Cement .................................. 5,984,000 tons
>> Lime ....................................... 1,888,000 tons
>> Quarry products 25,872,000 tons
>> and various other by-products to a total value of 79,961,423,000 francs.
>>
>> REMOVAL OF INDUSTRIAL EQUIPMENT
>> Total 9,759,861,000 francs,
>> of which 2,626,479,000 francs of machine tools.
>>
>> REMOVAL OF AGRICULTURAL PRODUCE
>> Total .............................................126,655,852,000
>> francs.
>>
>> i.e., for the principal products-
>> Wheat ................................................. 2,947,337 tons
>> Oats .................................................... 2,354,080 tons
>> Milk .......................................................790,000
>> hectolitres
>> Milk (concentrated and in powder) 460,000 hectolitres
>> Butter ...................................................... 76,000 tons
>> Cheese ................................................. 49,000 tons
>> Potatoes .............................................. 725,975 tons
>> Various vegetables ........................... 575,000 tons
>> Wine ................................................. 7,647,000
>> hectolitres
>> Champagne .................................. 87,000,000 bottles
>> Beer ................................................... 3,821,520
>> hectolitres
>> Various kinds of alcohol ................ 1,830,000 hectolitres
>>
>> REMOVAL OF MANUFACTURED PRODUCTS
>> to a total of 184,640,000,000 francs.
>>
>> PLUNDERING
>> Francs 257,020,024,000 from private enterprise.
>> Francs 55,000,100,000 from the state.
>>
>> FINANCIAL EXPLOITATION
>> From June, 1940, to September, 1944, the French Treasury was compelled to
>> pay to Germany 631,966,000,000 francs.
>>
>> LOOTING AND DESTRUCTION OF WORKS OF ART
>> The museums of Nantes, Nancy, Old-Marseilles were looted. Private
>> collections of great value were stolen. In this way, Raphaels, Vermeers,
>> Van Dycks and works of Rubens, Holbein, Rembrandt, Watteau, Boucher
>> disappeared. Germany compelled France to deliver up "The Mystic Lamb" by
>> Van Eyck, which Belgium had entrusted to her.
>>
>> In Norway and other occupied countries decrees were made by which the
>> property of many civilians, societies, etc., was confiscated. An immense
>> amount of property of every kind was plundered from France, Belgium,
>> Norway, Holland and Luxembourg.
>>
>> As a result of the economic plundering of Belgium between 1940 and 1944
>> the damage suffered amounted to 175 billions of Belgian francs.
>>
>> -- 
>> "Irving's conclusions were completely untenable. I thought his
>> scholarship was sloppy and unreliable and did not meet even the
>> most basic requirements of honest and competent historical
>> research."             (Richard Evans, Lying About Hitler, p.70) 
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Dec 12 15:37:44 EST 2008
Article: 1966521 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: the Dresden Hoax - A German Perspective
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On Mon, 8 Dec 2008 00:26:46 -0800 (PST), Peter Dopey
 wrote:

>Der Dresden-Hoax ist aufgeflogen
>Der gr��te Betrug des 20. Jahrhunderts ist entlarvt
>
>Nach langj�hriger, unerm�dlicher Arbeit der Forscher vom "Arbeitskreis
>Wahrheit f�r Sachsen" konnte endlich gekl�rt werden: Den sogenannten
>"Bombenangriff" auf Dresden im Zweiten Weltkrieg hat es nie gegeben.
>
>Lesen Sie den Bericht unserer Sonderkorrespondenten Germar Kl�glich
>und Rudolf Armleuchter.
>
>Das wichtigste Beweismittel f�r die "Bombenangriffe" auf Dresden w�ren
>nat�rlich Fotos, doch trotz intensivster Suche in allen verf�gbaren
>Brieftaschen, Pralinenschachteln und Hosentaschen konnten keine Fotos
>der sogenannten "Bombenangriffe" gefunden werden.
>
>Uns sind nat�rlich die Fotos bekannt, auf welche die "Dresdenhoaxer"
>immer wieder hinweisen. Aber die Fotos von zerst�rten H�usern, die sie
>vorlegen, haben keinerlei Beweiskraft, weil aus ihnen nicht
>hervorgeht, auf welche Weise die H�user zerst�rt worden sind. Auf
>aktuellen Luftbildern ist zudem kein einziger "Bombentrichter" zu
>sehen.
>
>Bezeichnend ist auch, dass es keine einzige forensische Untersuchung
>der sogenannten "Opfer" gegeben hat. Wahrscheinlich haben sie nie
>existiert. Wenn man heute durch Dresden f�hrt, sieht man jedenfalls so
>gut wie keine Leichen. Auch die H�user sind �berwiegend in passablem
>bis sehr gutem baulichem Zustand. Keine Spur von "Bomben" oder
>"Bombentrichtern".
>
>Das einzige, was man dort findet, ist eine kaputte Kirche
>("Frauenkirche") mit zahlreichen Baukr�nen davor. In Wirklichkeit
>dienen aber die Baukr�ne nicht dazu, die Kirche nach einer angeblichen
>"Zerst�rung" aufzubauen (siehe Foto oben), sondern die Kr�ne werden
>eingesetzt, um den gew�nschten desolaten Zustand herzustellen.
>
>Gl�cklicherweise liegt inzwischen sogar eine chemische Analyse der
>"Tr�mmer" vor. Wir haben auf den Putz gehauen und den aufgewirbelten
>Staub chemisch untersucht, oder vielleicht auch anders herum.
>Jedenfalls ergab die Analyse, dass die "Tr�mmer" - soweit sie �lter
>sind als 1990 - eine Folge des real existierenden Sozialismus und
>nicht etwa die Konsequenz eines "Bombenangriffs" sind.
>
>Dieses Ergebnis wird durch die negativ verlaufene Pr�fung auf die
>R�ckst�nde von Explosivstoffen weiter erh�rtet. Zum Vergleich wurde
>parallel im benachbarten "Fu Wong Chu's Chinese Fireworks" eine
>Kontrollprobe genommen. Bei "Fu Wong Chu's" ergab sich eine
>signifikant h�here Konzentration an Sprengstoffen. Dabei handelt es
>sich jedoch nur um relativ harmlose Freizeitb�ller.
>
>In der Kirche, die angeblich durch "Bomben" zum Einsturz gebracht
>wurde, m�sste die Sprengstoffkonzentration um ein Vielfaches h�her
>sein, dort lie�en sich jedoch �berhaupt keine R�ckst�nde von
>Explosivstoffen feststellen. Die unbestechliche chemische Analyse
>l�sst nur den einen Schluss zu, dass die Kirche nicht durch
>"Bombenabw�rfe" besch�digt worden ist.
>
>Auf die "Augenzeugenberichte" m�ssen wir daher nicht n�her eingehen.
>Wo wissenschaftliche Beweise vorliegen, m�ssen die zwangsl�ufig
>subjektiven Berichte sogenannter "Augenzeugen" in den Hintergrund
>treten, zumal es sich bei den meisten "Augenzeugen" um voreingenommene
>Sachsen handeln d�rfte. Unabh�ngige Berichte gibt es jedenfalls
>nicht.
>
>Die sogenannten "Aussagen der Bomberpiloten" k�nnen ebenfalls nicht
>ber�cksichtigt werden. Bei diesen Aussagen handelt es sich um
>erpresste Gest�ndnisse, die im "Zwinger" (die s�chsische Lubjanka)
>durch Folterungen entstanden sind. Der sogenannte "Bomber Harris", der
>gern als Kronzeuge f�r die "Bombenangriffe" herangezogen wird, wurde
>zwar nicht gefoltert, doch auch er kann nicht als glaubw�rdig gelten,
>da seine Gro�tante m�tterlicherseits von einem Schkeuditzer
>Flickschuster abstammt.
>
>All dies f�hrt zwangsl�ufig zu der Schlu�folgerung, dass die
>"Bombenangriffe" auf Dresden eine Erfindung der s�chsischen
>Meinungsmafia sind. Vermutlich wurde die ganze Sache in der
>s�chsischen F�lscherwerkstatt Fabelsberg inszeniert, die damals fest
>in s�chsischer Hand war. Man darf auch nicht vergessen, dass die
>Sachsen sich bei der Inszenierung dieses Schwindels ausgerechnet der
>AngelSACHSEN bedient haben.
>
>Auch die angeblichen Differenzen in der Bev�lkerungszahl (vor und nach
>den "Bombenangriffen") sind keine brauchbaren Beweismittel. Erstens
>schwankt die Zahl der angeblichen "Opfer" so stark, dass verl�ssliche
>Angaben nicht m�glich sind. Zweitens muss, selbst wenn es einen
>Bev�lkerungsverlust gibt, zun�chst gepr�ft werden, ob die "Opfer"
>nicht einfach die Stadt verlassen haben.
>
>Es ist durchaus denkbar, dass viele Sachsen bei ihren Verwandten, den
>Niedersachsen, untergekommen sind und sich bester Gesundheit erfreuen.
>Jedenfalls tauchen seit etwa 1990 in allen Erdteilen immer mehr
>Sachsen auf. Genaue Statistiken fehlen noch, aber der Eindruck dr�ngt
>sich auf, dass sich z.B. in Palma de Mallorca zeitweise mehr Sachsen
>aufhalten, als auch nach den h�chsten Sch�tzungen je in Dresden ums
>Leben gekommen sein sollen.
>
>�brigens vertreten unsere "revisionistisch-wahrheitssuchenden"
>Kollegen von der Fraktion der Auschwitzleugner die Ansicht, dass die
>vielen Opfer, die f�r Auschwitz genannt werden, niemals innerhalb der
>allgemein akzeptierten Zeitspanne verbrannt werden konnten. Wir d�rfen
>uns daher die Zahlen der Herren Germar Rudolf und Fred Leuchter zu
>eigen machen und sagen: In Auschwitz und in Dresden gilt die gleiche
>Physik. Wenn in Auschwitz die Leichen nicht so schnell verbrannt
>werden konnten, dann ging das in Dresden auch nicht.
>
>Abschlie�end sei noch ein Wort zum bemerkenswerten Fehlen von
>physikalischen Spuren gesagt. Es gibt heute in Dresden keinen einzigen
>"Bombentrichter" mehr. S�mtliche Spuren der angeblichen
>"Bombenangriffe" sind angeblich im Rahmen des Projekts "Aufbau Ost"
>vernichtet worden; in Wahrheit hat es sie aber nie gegeben.
>Altbundeskanzler Helmut Kohl, einer der Hauptakteure dieses
>Vertuschungsprojekts, ist als Urenkel eines Johannst�dter
>Gem�seh�ndlers(!) in h�chstem Ma�e verd�chtig, ein f�hrender Kopf
>dieser Geschichtsf�lschung zu sein.
>
>Nicht einmal die Seriennummern der "Bomben", die auf Dresden gefallen
>sein sollen, sind bekannt. Die "Dresdenhoaxer" sind nicht in der Lage,
>auch nur eine einzige Bombe mit lesbarer Seriennummer vorzulegen und
>diese Bombe mit dem Tod konkreter, namentlich zu benennender B�rger
>der Stadt Dresden in Verbindung zu bringen.
>
>Das Einzige, was die "Dresdenhoaxer" anbieten k�nnen, sind zahlreiche
>nicht explodierte Bomben, die aber erstens keinen Schaden angerichtet
>haben k�nnen, da sie ja nicht explodiert sind, und deren Herkunft
>zweitens nicht eindeutig belegt ist. Sie k�nnen ohne weiteres aus dem
>Fundus der F�lscherwerkstatt Fabelsberg stammen.
>
>So bleibt als Fazit festzuhalten: Legt man die strengen
>wissenschaftlichen Ma�st�be der "revisionistischen Wahrheitssucher"
>auf die "Bombardierung" Dresdens an, dann m�ssen wir davon ausgehen,
>dass es diese "Bombardierung" nie gegeben hat.

LOL

Poor Dopey cannot distinguish "MAD Magazine" style farce and
scientific history.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Dec 12 15:37:45 EST 2008
Article: 1966523 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Zionist media's obsession with Hitler 'fuelling decline in German  lessons'
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On Mon, 8 Dec 2008 00:39:44 -0800 (PST), "."
 wrote:

>The number of pupils taking a GCSE in the subject last summer slumped
>to a record low, it was revealed.
>
>German is now being overtaken by Spanish as the second most popular
>language in the classroom - after French. The National Centre for
>Languages (CiLT) said interest in Spanish had boomed in recent years
>because of the holiday industry, combined with the fame of actors such
>as Antonio Banderas and Penelope Cruz.
>Teresa Tinsley, communications director, said the language had a
>positive image as celebrities were "not hiding their bilingualism" in
>front of the media.
>
>But she said TV often had the opposite effect with German.
>
>"I have certainly heard German teachers saying 'Not another programme
>about Hitler', which is a shame really because there is so much
>history to access through [the study of] German - it is really
>important," she said. World War Two is one of the mainstays of [jewish-
>owned] satellite channels such as UKTV History and the History
>Channel. Recent programmes - often repeated throughout the day -
>include Hitler's Bodyguard, Hitler's Women, Nazi America and Nazi
>Guerrillas. The study of the two World Wars - including the Holocaust
>- is also COMPULSARY in secondary schools. In the past, the German
>ambassador to Britain has criticised the "unbalanced" obsession with
>Nazis in the history curriculum. Linda Parker, director of the
>Association for Language Learning, said: "It is not just in school
>that there's Hitler. You can always find it on television if you flick
>through [jew Rupert Murdoch's] Sky channels."
>
>http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/3545416/Nazi-history-programmes-fuelling-decline-in-German-lessons.html

The Brits are obsessed with WW2 since it was Britain's last hurrah as
a significant power. They play it over and over and over again to take
their minds off the dreary and depressing present, the consequences of
their folly in initiating WW2.



From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Dec 12 15:37:47 EST 2008
Article: 1966994 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Sylvia Stolz was locked up for what reason?
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On Mon, 08 Dec 2008 16:32:10 +0200, holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene
Holman) wrote:

>In article <5n1qj41snqn3sloakni7706ns5o32skfko@4ax.com>,
>ebersdorf@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 07 Dec 2008 07:55:37 +0200, holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene
>> Holman) wrote:
>
>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >No. It is a summary based on my knowledge of 20th century German history.
>> >
>> >For Nazi racist ideology read the ravings of Adolf Hitler, Julius
>> >Streicher, and Alfred Rosenberg.
>> 
>> One can also read the ravings of many allied politicians. If it didn't
>> actually happen, it doesn't matter.
>
>But it did.
>
>> >For German nationalism gone wild, consider why the Allies decided that
>> >Germans would henceforth only b allowed to sing the third verse of their
>> >national anthem.
>> 
>> It wasn't the allies who decided that, and it isn't a matter of
>> "allowed". Fallersleben's complete poem is the German national anthem,
>> although only the third verse is used for official occasions.
>
>What is the full story of the ban? Isn't part of it that Fallersleben's
>poem makes some rather grandiose claims, offensive to most of Germany's
>neighbors, about the location of the borders of the Reich: "Von der Maas
>bis an die Memel, von der Etsch bis an den Belt".

The poem was written in the 1830s, and makes no declaration about the
political boundaries of Germany. Fallersleben describes the area where
the German language is the principal medium of communication, which is
actually the meaning of Deutschland rather than the narrow political
definition of more recent years. In any case, who gives a flying shit
about the opinions of the bigots and cretins that Germany has as
neighbours?

>
>> >For a thug-infested German government tat could not be voted out of
>> >office, consider the careers of Adolf Hitler, Reynhard Heydrich, Heinrich
>> >Himmler, Josef G�bbels, Hermann G�ring, and Roland Freisler.
>> >
>> >> > Germans
>> >> > were and are rather less racist and nationalistic than Americans,
>> >> > either then or now. 
>> >
>> >Now, probably. Back then, certainly not. Although they adored Jesse Owens,
>> >they also had laws on the books authorizing the sterilization of
>> >African-Germans.
>> 
>> What is an African-German? 
>
>There were thousands of them. The first wave was the children fathered by
>Germans and African mothers in South West Africa. When Germany lost the
>colony, many such families moved to Germany. Since German laws of
>citizenship traditionally went through the father, the children were
>legally Germans. 

That is nonsense. Either one is ethnically German or not. Germany is a
European tribal state, not a "place of residence state" such as the
USA. Having German citizenship means that you have a piece of paper
that says that you have German citizenship. The piece of paper has no
power to make you ethnically German. Normally both parents need to be
German before the offspring are German.

>The second wave was the children fathered by French
>colonial troops occupying the Rhineland aftr WW I

They should have been aborted or shoved off into France. They have no
claim on German citizenship and nothing could ever make them
ethnically German.


, the so-called
>"Rhineland bastards" that Hitler raved about in *Mein Kampf*. Both groups
>were targeted for sterilization by the Nazis. For details on
>African-Germans, see e.g.
>http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10005479.
>
>> The number of black people resident in
>> Germany pre-occupation could have been counted on the fingers of one
>> hand. The first black person my mother had ever seen, other than in
>> books, was postwar, and he was an American occupier.
>
>In addition to the above groups, there were many blacks temorarily
>resident in the Weimar Republic and the first years of the Hitler regime,
>most of them helping to satisfy the appetite of many urban Germans for the
>"degenerate" form of music known as jazz.
> 
>> It is Americans who are the world's principal racists.
>> 
>> >
>> >> > The claim about "owning" Europe is silly allied
>> >> > propaganda without any substance.
>> >
>> >Absorbing Austria, Luxembourg, Warteland, and the Sudetenland, occupying
>> >part of France, Poland, the UK (the Channel Islands), and the USSR, and
>> >all of Greece, Belgium, the Netherlands, Norway, and Denmark, as well as
>> >part of Italy and Hungary is what Germany did between 1938 and 1945. That
>> >is not "allied propaganda" but cold fact.
>> 
>> Austria was part of Germany since the 9th century, and its residents
>> are German-speaking as well as being ethnically German. Austria
>> rejoined Germany as a result of a plebiscite.
>> 
>> Luxemburg was never annexed to Germany.
>
>Yes it was. Ever heard of Gau Moselland
>[http://lb.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gau?redirect=no]?
>
>Source:
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Luxembourg#Separation_and_the_World_Wars_.281890_.E2.80.93_1945.29
>
>
>
>During World War II the Luxembourgish government and monarchy was swept
>away into exile by the German invasion of 10 May 1940, although German
>troops actually occupied Luxembourg City during the night of 9 May.
>Throughout the war, Grand Duchess Charlotte broadcast via on BBC to
>Luxembourg to give hope to the people. The state was placed under military
>occupation until August 1942, when it was formally annexed by the Third
>Reich as part of the Gau Moselland. Luxembourgers were declared to be
>German citizens and 13,000 were called up for military service. 2,848
>Luxembourgers eventually died fighting in the German army. Luxembourgish
>opposition to this annexation took the form of passive resistance at
>first, as in the Sp�ngelskrich (lit. "War of the Pins"), and by the
>refusal to speak German. As French was forbidden, many Luxembourgers
>resorted to resuscitating old Luxembourgish words, which led to a
>renaissance of the language. Other measures included deportation, forced
>labour, forced conscription and, more drastically, internment, deportation
>to concentration camps and execution. The latter measure was applied after
>a general strike from 1 September to 3 September 1942, which paralyzed the
>administration, agriculture, industry and education as response to the
>declaration of forced conscription by the German administration on 30
>August 1942. It was violently suppressed: 21 strikers were executed and
>hundreds more deported to concentration camps. The then civilian
>administrator of Luxembourg, Gauleiter Gustav Simon had declared
>conscription necessary to support the German war effort. It was to remain
>one of only two mass strikes against the German war machinery in Western
>Europe.
>
>U.S. forces again liberated most of the country in September 1944,
>although they were briefly forced to withdraw during the Ardennes
>Offensive (Battle of the Bulge) which had German troops take back most of
>northern Luxembourg for a few weeks. The Germans were finally expelled in
>January 1945. Altogether, of a pre-war population of 293,000, 5,259
>Luxembourgers lost their lives during the hostilities.
>
>
>
>> Warteland was a Polish theft
>
>Nevertheless, it was a part of Poland by treaty and international law.
>
>> Sudentenland was a Czech theft. The residents were not Czechs and they
>> hated the overlordship of the Czechs. The area should never have been
>> assigned to the Czechs in the first place.
>
>But it was part of Czechoslovakia by treaty and international law.

Versailles had no validity, since it was not a treaty.

>
>Germany was a signatory to the treaty that defined the new borders.

Somebody who comes into my house and forces me to sign over my
property at gunpoint, the "agreement" has no validity. Versailles was
a farce forced by an illegal allied blockade that had caused the
deaths of almost a million people in Germany POSTWAR.

> 
>> The rest of your list was temporary military necessity and does not
>> lend any support to your ridiculous hypothesis.
>
>Trying to change the results of a lost war by taking territory assigned to
>another country by a peace treaty to which Germany was a signatory only
>resulted in Germany losing even more territory. That is not a ridiculous
>hypothesis, but a fact.

Versailles was a nothing of zero validity, but it produced Hitler,
Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot in its wake. If you support the injustices of
Versailles, then I can only say that you are a pathetic moron.


>
>
>
>Regards,
>Eugene Holman


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Dec 12 15:37:47 EST 2008
Article: 1967007 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: NAZI Plunder of Europe
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Mon, 08 Dec 2008 20:11:47 GMT, "Kurt Knoll" 
wrote:

>
>"I'll Always Be Here"  wrote in message 
>news:Xns9B6E7966E4D03Theonlyonethatcares@87.106.137.111...
>> "Kurt Knoll"  wrote in
>> news:9Oa%k.3569$si6.1894@edtnps83:
>>
>>> You have it and here is another one. The German invaded Norway to
>>> protect their ore supply.
>>
>>
>> Correct. The germans stole the ore from Norway. Thank you.

"I'll Always Be Here" is being his usual jackass self. The iron ore
was purchased in Sweden, and during the winter months when the
relevant Swedish ports are closed due to ice, the ore is transported
via a special railway line to the Norwegian port of Narvik. Churchill
tried to seize Narvik, thus violating Norway's neutrality, but the
Germans got wind of the plan and were there before Churchill's bunch.

>
>Prove it you liar. Was it not the reason why great Britain invaded Norway 
>and for the same reason but never made it. What is it an aswhole like is 
>trying to prove here.
>Kurt Knoll.
>
>>
>>
>> The British did the same but came one hour
>>> late.
>>
>> Correct. The germans stole the ore from Norway. Thank you.
>>
>>
>> Warfare is warfare and politic is politic.
>>
>> And knolls always lie.
>>
>>
>>
>>> The same stories was it in south Africa where the oil supply came from.
>>
>>
>> No oil came from South Africa.
>>
>>
>>> Kurt Knoll.
>>>
>>> "Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message
>>> news:2a4qj49irhba9krbilut444tsii3vrl0ha@4ax.com...
>>>> On Sun, 07 Dec 2008 20:35:57 GMT, "Kurt Knoll" 
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Well Kenneth and how much of the German treasure the Americans
>>>>>plundered from Germany is still in America. My oldest brother was in
>>>>>Denmark brought home some Danish cheese and paid for it in the store.
>>>>>Can you proof he stole
>>>>>it. You are nothing but a lying bustard and we all know it.
>>>>>Kurt Knoll.
>>>>
>>>> Kenny's table is nonsense. The French stole coal from Germany for
>>>> generations, not the other way around. Any German looting was trivial
>>>> compared to allied excesses postwar. Why would anybody steal inferior
>>>> coal from France, when the Ruhr basin has a major portion of the
>>>> world's reserves of high-grade coal?
>>>>
>>>> Germany got the bulk of its iron ore from Sweden, whose ore is
>>>> dramatically better than the French ore which has a high sulphur
>>>> content.
>>>>
>>>> Bauxite does not exist in significant quantities in France. Even huge
>>>> countries like Canada and the USA have very little of it.
>>>>
>>>> Kenny is simply full of shit.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>"Kenneth McVay OBC"  wrote in message
>>>>>news:-O6dnRLMgIgCraHUnZ2dnUVZ_jOdnZ2d@vex.net...
>>>>>> http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/imt/tgmwc/tgmwc-01/tgmwc-01-01-04.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1. Western Countries :
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There was plundered from the Western Countries from 1940 to 1944,
>>>>>> works of
>>>>>> art, artistic objects, pictures, plastics, furniture, textiles,
>>>>>> antique pieces and similar articles of enormous value to the number
>>>>>> of 21,903.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In France statistics show the following:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> REMOVAL OF RAW MATERIALS
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Coal ..................................... 63,000,000 tons
>>>>>> Electric energy ............................. 20,976 kw
>>>>>> Petrol and fuel ...................... 1,943,750 tons
>>>>>> Iron ore ................................ 74,848,000 tons
>>>>>> Siderurgical products.......... 3,822,000 tons
>>>>>> Bauxite ................................... 1,211,800 tons
>>>>>> Cement .................................. 5,984,000 tons
>>>>>> Lime ....................................... 1,888,000 tons
>>>>>> Quarry products 25,872,000 tons
>>>>>> and various other by-products to a total value of 79,961,423,000
>>>>>> francs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> REMOVAL OF INDUSTRIAL EQUIPMENT
>>>>>> Total 9,759,861,000 francs,
>>>>>> of which 2,626,479,000 francs of machine tools.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> REMOVAL OF AGRICULTURAL PRODUCE
>>>>>> Total .............................................126,655,852,000
>>>>>> francs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> i.e., for the principal products-
>>>>>> Wheat ................................................. 2,947,337
>>>>>> tons Oats ....................................................
>>>>>> 2,354,080 tons Milk
>>>>>> .......................................................790,000
>>>>>> hectolitres Milk (concentrated and in powder) 460,000 hectolitres
>>>>>> Butter ...................................................... 76,000
>>>>>> tons
>>>>>> Cheese ................................................. 49,000 tons
>>>>>> Potatoes .............................................. 725,975 tons
>>>>>> Various vegetables ........................... 575,000 tons
>>>>>> Wine ................................................. 7,647,000
>>>>>> hectolitres
>>>>>> Champagne .................................. 87,000,000 bottles
>>>>>> Beer ................................................... 3,821,520
>>>>>> hectolitres
>>>>>> Various kinds of alcohol ................ 1,830,000 hectolitres
>>>>>>
>>>>>> REMOVAL OF MANUFACTURED PRODUCTS
>>>>>> to a total of 184,640,000,000 francs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> PLUNDERING
>>>>>> Francs 257,020,024,000 from private enterprise.
>>>>>> Francs 55,000,100,000 from the state.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> FINANCIAL EXPLOITATION
>>>>>> From June, 1940, to September, 1944, the French Treasury was
>>>>>> compelled to
>>>>>> pay to Germany 631,966,000,000 francs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> LOOTING AND DESTRUCTION OF WORKS OF ART
>>>>>> The museums of Nantes, Nancy, Old-Marseilles were looted. Private
>>>>>> collections of great value were stolen. In this way, Raphaels,
>>>>>> Vermeers, Van Dycks and works of Rubens, Holbein, Rembrandt, Watteau,
>>>>>> Boucher disappeared. Germany compelled France to deliver up "The
>>>>>> Mystic Lamb" by Van Eyck, which Belgium had entrusted to her.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In Norway and other occupied countries decrees were made by which the
>>>>>> property of many civilians, societies, etc., was confiscated. An
>>>>>> immense amount of property of every kind was plundered from France,
>>>>>> Belgium, Norway, Holland and Luxembourg.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As a result of the economic plundering of Belgium between 1940 and
>>>>>> 1944 the damage suffered amounted to 175 billions of Belgian francs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>> "Irving's conclusions were completely untenable. I thought his
>>>>>> scholarship was sloppy and unreliable and did not meet even the
>>>>>> most basic requirements of honest and competent historical
>>>>>> research."             (Richard Evans, Lying About Hitler, p.70)
>>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> 
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Dec 12 15:37:48 EST 2008
Article: 1967009 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: State Dept on Germany's Respect for Civil Liberties, Including:  Freedom of Speech and Press
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Tue, 9 Dec 2008 16:07:59 +1000, "Ben Cramer"
 wrote:

>
>"Attalus Soter"  wrote in message 
>news:904b05c4-d223-4247-b942-455da92a4d76@g38g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...
>> 
>>
>> http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2007/100561.htm
>>
>>
>> Section 2 Respect for Civil Liberties, Including:
>>
>> a. Freedom of Speech and Press
>>
>> The law provides for freedom of speech and of the press; while the
>> government generally respected these rights, it imposed limits aimed
>> at groups deemed extremist.
>>
>> Distribution of the propaganda of proscribed organizations is illegal,
>> as are statements inciting racial hatred, endorsing Nazism, and
>> denying the Holocaust. On March 15, Germar Rudolf was found guilty in
>> Manheim of denying the Holocaust and was sentenced to 30 months in
>> prison. His book, Lectures on the Holocaust: A Controversial Question
>> Cross-Examined, was banned. On February 15, Ernst Zuendel was
>> sentenced to five years in prison for Holocaust denial and writing
>> anti-Semitic essays in several right-wing extremist pamphlets.
>>
>> Apart from these limitations, an active independent media expressed a
>> wide variety of views without government restriction.
>> 
>
>The Holocaust(tm) - The only historic event protected from critical 
>examination by legislation.
>
>What does that tell you?
>
>
>> 
Clearly the holocaust� REQUIRES legislative protection to survive.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Dec 12 15:37:49 EST 2008
Article: 1967012 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Sylvia Stolz was locked up for what reason?
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On Tue, 09 Dec 2008 15:38:53 +0200, holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene
Holman) wrote:

>In article <4rosj4l8om0985ggqtoitersha8smvfacc@4ax.com>,
>ebersdorf@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 08 Dec 2008 16:32:10 +0200, holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene
>> Holman) wrote:
>> 
>
>> >
>> >What is the full story of the ban? Isn't part of it that Fallersleben's
>> >poem makes some rather grandiose claims, offensive to most of Germany's
>> >neighbors, about the location of the borders of the Reich: "Von der Maas
>> >bis an die Memel, von der Etsch bis an den Belt".
>> 
>> The poem was written in the 1830s, and makes no declaration about the
>> political boundaries of Germany. Fallersleben describes the area where
>> the German language is the principal medium of communication, which is
>> actually the meaning of Deutschland rather than the narrow political
>> definition of more recent years. In any case, who gives a flying shit
>> about the opinions of the bigots and cretins that Germany has as
>> neighbours?
>
>Anybody concerned about people in Germany getting the idea that the
>boundaries mentioned in the poem mean something after Germany has just
>lost a war trying to respand territorially. And it is just because Germany
>considered its neighbors to be " bigots and cretins" 

>during the 1930s that
>Hitler was convinced that they could be enslaved or eliminated.

There is no evidence of that. You're just spouting the usual lame
allied justification propaganda.

>
>You failed to answer my question: What is the background to the ban on the
>first two verses of the anthem? Why is the thought of Germans singing "Von
>der Maas
>> >bis an die Memel, von der Etsch bis an den Belt" regarded with
>revulsion in Central Europe?

There is no "ban". All three verses are regularly used at football
games, etc. For government functions, only the third verse is used. In
any case, verses one and two are pretty innocuous, especially compared
to other European national anthems. It seems that the smaller the
country the more ferocious is its national anthem, even the French
national anthem is pretty vicious. Nobody should need to appologize
for the German national anthem, which has nothing to do with Nazis.
Allied nonsense interpretations should be their problem, not the
problem of Germans.

>
>
>
>> >> What is an African-German? 
>> >
>> >There were thousands of them. The first wave was the children fathered by
>> >Germans and African mothers in South West Africa. When Germany lost the
>> >colony, many such families moved to Germany. Since German laws of
>> >citizenship traditionally went through the father, the children were
>> >legally Germans. 
>> 
>> That is nonsense. Either one is ethnically German or not. Germany is a
>> European tribal state, not a "place of residence state" such as the
>> USA. Having German citizenship means that you have a piece of paper
>> that says that you have German citizenship. The piece of paper has no
>> power to make you ethnically German. Normally both parents need to be
>> German before the offspring are German.
>
>Nevertheless, The legal right tp German citizenship traditionally goes
>though the father. After WW I, Germany had a demographic emergency to deal
>with. I only mentioned South West Africa in my previous posting because
>that is where most of the Afro-Germans (that is the preferred term) came
>from. There were also Germans who had had mixed-race children by wives or
>lovers in the other German colonies that were lost: Camaroon, Togo,
>Tanganyika, and Melanisia. There were also, inevitably, Africans who had
>worked for the German colonial administrations and were German colonial
>citizens who had wives by their German wives or lovers. All of these
>people became Germany's responisibility when Germany had to evcuate and
>accept its citizens and nationals from the lost colonies.
>
>> >The second wave was the children fathered by French
>> >colonial troops occupying the Rhineland aftr WW I
>> 
>> They should have been aborted or shoved off into France. 
>
>But, already born, they couldn't be aborted. And their mothers had some
>say in the manner as well. Most of them remained in Hitler's Germany,
>although they were often forced to undergo sterilization. Since the number
>of people concerned was no more than a few thousand � far more than the
>number of fingers on one hand, as you initially claimed � there was never
>any serious campaign to persecute or eliminate them.
>
>> They have no
>> claim on German citizenship and nothing could ever make them
>> ethnically German.
>
>That was not such a clear-cut issue, particularly if the mother did not
>know or refused to identify the father. What "ethnic German" means is not
>written in stone and subject to change, as you very well know. In any
>case, German law could not simply deprive the German-born child of a
>German mother and an unknown or unidentified father of all citizenship and
>human rights. Such a policy would have not served the interests of German
>society.
>
>
>
>> >> >
>> >> >> > The claim about "owning" Europe is silly allied
>> >> >> > propaganda without any substance.
>
>I think that people in France, Belgium, the Netherlands, Luzembourg,
>Norway, Denmark, Poland, Austria, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Greece, Itaoy,
>Yugoslavia, and the USSR, all of which were invaded by Germany during the
>war, two of them in particular, Poland and the USSR, with the objective of
>destroying the states, ethnically cleansing their territories, and opening
>them as *Lebensraum* for German colonizaion, would disagree with you about
>the "owning Europe" phrase. The Germans' own Wannsee Conference Document
>defines the Final Solution of the Jewish Question in Europe as a
>continent-wide campaign to eliminate Jews from what it calls "the German
>living space", and every country in Europe, including Ireland and the
>European part of Turkey, is listed, along with the number of Jews known to
>be living in them.
>
>> >> >Absorbing Austria, Luxembourg, Warteland, and the Sudetenland, occupying
>> >> >part of France, Poland, the UK (the Channel Islands), and the USSR, and
>> >> >all of Greece, Belgium, the Netherlands, Norway, and Denmark, as well as
>> >> >part of Italy and Hungary is what Germany did between 1938 and 1945. That
>> >> >is not "allied propaganda" but cold fact.
>> >> 
>> >> Austria was part of Germany since the 9th century, and its residents
>> >> are German-speaking as well as being ethnically German. Austria
>> >> rejoined Germany as a result of a plebiscite.
>> >> 
>> >> Luxemburg was never annexed to Germany.
>> >
>> >Yes it was. Ever heard of Gau Moselland
>> >[http://lb.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gau?redirect=no]?
>
>
>
>As demonstrated in the deleted text, Luxembourg was indeed annexed by
>Germany, with Luxembourgers, against the will pf its population, which was
>declared Reich citizens, forced to fight in the Gerrman military, and if
>Jewish, subject to Nazi anti-Jewish legislation and the Holocaust. More
>than half of Luzembourg's pre-war Jewish population died during the
>Holocaust.
>
>> >> Warteland was a Polish theft
>> >
>> >Nevertheless, it was a part of Poland by treaty and international law.
>> >
>> >> Sudentenland was a Czech theft. The residents were not Czechs and they
>> >> hated the overlordship of the Czechs. The area should never have been
>> >> assigned to the Czechs in the first place.
>> >
>> >But it was part of Czechoslovakia by treaty and international law.
>> 
>> Versailles had no validity, since it was not a treaty.
>
>From the standpoint if international law it was:
>
>Source: http://history.sandiego.edu/gen/text/versaillestreaty/all440.html
>
>
>The Versailles Treaty
>June 28, 1919
>THE COVENANT OF THE LEAGUE OF NATIONS.
>
>
>THE HIGH CONTRACTING PARTIES, In order to promote international
>co-operation and to achieve international peace and security by the
>acceptance of obligations not to resort to war by the prescription
>of open, just and honourable relations between nations by the firm
>establishment of the understandings of international law as the
>actual rule of conduct among Governments, and by the maintenance of
>justice and a scrupulous respect for all treaty obligations in the
>dealings of organised peoples with one another Agree to this
>Covenant of the League of Nations.
>
>
>
>
>> >Germany was a signatory to the treaty that defined the new borders.
>> 
>> Somebody who comes into my house and forces me to sign over my
>> property at gunpoint, the "agreement" has no validity. Versailles was
>> a farce forced by an illegal allied blockade that had caused the
>> deaths of almost a million people in Germany POSTWAR.
>> 
>> > 
>> >> The rest of your list was temporary military necessity and does not
>> >> lend any support to your ridiculous hypothesis.
>> >
>> >Trying to change the results of a lost war by taking territory assigned to
>> >another country by a peace treaty to which Germany was a signatory only
>> >resulted in Germany losing even more territory. That is not a ridiculous
>> >hypothesis, but a fact.
>> 
>> Versailles was a nothing of zero validity, but it produced Hitler,
>> Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot in its wake. If you support the injustices of
>> Versailles, then I can only say that you are a pathetic moron.
>
>I agree with you that Germany, acountry that had lost a war and was thus
>hardly in a strong bargaining position, signed the treaty under duress. I
>also fully agree with you that Hitler � I would attribute the three
>communist dicators that you mentioned to different factors � was a direct
>product of this treaty. However, the treaty was signed by Germany, and
>Germany originally made an attempt to obey thsoe of its stipulations that
>were obeyable. The military and economic situation in Europe changed
>rapidly during the 1930s, and Germany thought that it could shitcan the
>treaty, which it eventually did. However, it seriously misjudged its
>ability to undo the terms of the treaty, for which reason it wound up
>regaining nothing and still losing even more territory. That is a fact
>that we are all forced to live with.
>
>Nor, of course, should we forget how Germany acquired the territories to
>the east of the Elbe during the Middle Ages. Slavic place names such as
>Berlin, Dresden, Leipzig, Gleiwitz, Auscwhitz, the recycled Baltic
>ethnonym Prussian, not to mention the residual Sorbian population in the
>vicinity of Bautzen and Kottbus, indicate that these territories, although
>German for centuries, were conquered from Slavs and Balts within
>historical memory. Those who conquer by the sword are often conquered by
>the sword.
>
>Regards,
>Eugene Holman


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Dec 12 15:37:49 EST 2008
Article: 1968031 of alt.revisionism
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Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Sylvia Stolz was locked up for what reason?
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On Wed, 10 Dec 2008 08:34:55 +0200, holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene
Holman) wrote:

>In article <5qtsj4t7ts8agif258i2t6do6uidoqdo5r@4ax.com>,
>ebersdorf@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 09 Dec 2008 15:38:53 +0200, holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene
>> Holman) wrote:
>
>
>> >
>> >Anybody concerned about people in Germany getting the idea that the
>> >boundaries mentioned in the poem mean something after Germany has just
>> >lost a war trying to respand territorially. And it is just because Germany
>> >considered its neighbors to be " bigots and cretins" 
>> 
>> >during the 1930s that
>> >Hitler was convinced that they could be enslaved or eliminated.
>> 
>> There is no evidence of that. You're just spouting the usual lame
>> allied justification propaganda.
>
>No. Such measures as the passing of the Nuremberg Laws, the development of
>laws and methods for the forced sterilization of racial undesirables and
>the less than perfect, and, eventually, the implementation of the T-4
>euthanasia program against the deformed, terminally ill, and elderly
>("useless mouths to feed"), as a means of carrying out internal racial
>cleansing, all provided a methodological basis and dress rehearsal for
>what was to be done to Nazi Germany's neighbors, particularly those to the
>east. This is not "lame allied justification propaganda". This is a
>central part of the history of Germany during the 1930s, history justified
>and abundantly documented by the Nazis themselves in their media, films,
>political speeches, and legislation.

The Canadian province of Alberta and many jurisdictions in the USA did
the same sort of thing during the same time-frame, so why the
irrational and hypocritical German-bashing?


>
>> >You failed to answer my question: What is the background to the ban on the
>> >first two verses of the anthem? Why is the thought of Germans singing "Von
>> >der Maas
>> >> >bis an die Memel, von der Etsch bis an den Belt" regarded with
>> >revulsion in Central Europe?
>> 
>> There is no "ban". All three verses are regularly used at football
>> games, etc. For government functions, only the third verse is used. In
>> any case, verses one and two are pretty innocuous, especially compared
>> to other European national anthems. It seems that the smaller the
>> country the more ferocious is its national anthem, even the French
>> national anthem is pretty vicious. Nobody should need to appologize
>> for the German national anthem, which has nothing to do with Nazis.
>> Allied nonsense interpretations should be their problem, not the
>> problem of Germans.
>
>Nevertheless, the compact geography lesson is not appreciated in the
>Netherlands (die Maas), Lithuania, Russia (die meml), Italy (die Etsch),
>or Denmark (der Belt).
>
>
>Regards,
>Eugene Holman


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Dec 12 15:37:49 EST 2008
Article: 1968032 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Sylvia Stolz was locked up for what reason?
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Wed, 10 Dec 2008 08:34:55 +0200, holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene
Holman) wrote:

>In article <5qtsj4t7ts8agif258i2t6do6uidoqdo5r@4ax.com>,
>ebersdorf@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 09 Dec 2008 15:38:53 +0200, holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene
>> Holman) wrote:
>
>
>> >
>> >Anybody concerned about people in Germany getting the idea that the
>> >boundaries mentioned in the poem mean something after Germany has just
>> >lost a war trying to respand territorially. And it is just because Germany
>> >considered its neighbors to be " bigots and cretins" 
>> 
>> >during the 1930s that
>> >Hitler was convinced that they could be enslaved or eliminated.
>> 
>> There is no evidence of that. You're just spouting the usual lame
>> allied justification propaganda.
>
>No. Such measures as the passing of the Nuremberg Laws, the development of
>laws and methods for the forced sterilization of racial undesirables and
>the less than perfect, and, eventually, the implementation of the T-4
>euthanasia program against the deformed, terminally ill, and elderly
>("useless mouths to feed"), as a means of carrying out internal racial
>cleansing, all provided a methodological basis and dress rehearsal for
>what was to be done to Nazi Germany's neighbors, particularly those to the
>east. This is not "lame allied justification propaganda". This is a
>central part of the history of Germany during the 1930s, history justified
>and abundantly documented by the Nazis themselves in their media, films,
>political speeches, and legislation.
>
>> >You failed to answer my question: What is the background to the ban on the
>> >first two verses of the anthem? Why is the thought of Germans singing "Von
>> >der Maas
>> >> >bis an die Memel, von der Etsch bis an den Belt" regarded with
>> >revulsion in Central Europe?
>> 
>> There is no "ban". All three verses are regularly used at football
>> games, etc. For government functions, only the third verse is used. In
>> any case, verses one and two are pretty innocuous, especially compared
>> to other European national anthems. It seems that the smaller the
>> country the more ferocious is its national anthem, even the French
>> national anthem is pretty vicious. Nobody should need to appologize
>> for the German national anthem, which has nothing to do with Nazis.
>> Allied nonsense interpretations should be their problem, not the
>> problem of Germans.
>
>Nevertheless, the compact geography lesson is not appreciated in the
>Netherlands (die Maas), Lithuania, Russia (die meml), Italy (die Etsch),
>or Denmark (der Belt).

German populations do not end at the German political frontiers. The
Etsch region in Northern Italy is populated principally by Germans
grabbed against their will by Italy as a reward for WW1. The regions
in Belgium up to the Maas are populated by German people, as was the
Memel region in Lithuania, a region grabbed by Lithuania in 1921,
again against the wishes of the inhabitants. The Belt reference to
Denmark is probably poetic licence to make the rhyme scheme work.

Obviously you favour all manner of gross injustice as long as it is
directed against Germans. Your anti-German obsession is pathetic.





>
>
>Regards,
>Eugene Holman


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Dec 12 15:37:50 EST 2008
Article: 1968033 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Sylvia Stolz was locked up for what reason?
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Wed, 10 Dec 2008 02:03:10 -0800 (PST), I AM A TRUE CHRISTIAN
 wrote:

>On Dec 10, 3:34�am, hol...@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman) wrote:
>> In article <5qtsj4t7ts8agif258i2t6do6uidoqd...@4ax.com>,
>>
>> ebersd...@gmail.com wrote:
>> > On Tue, 09 Dec 2008 15:38:53 +0200, hol...@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene
>> > Holman) wrote:
>>
>> 
>>
>>
>>
>> > >Anybody concerned about people in Germany getting the idea that the
>> > >boundaries mentioned in the poem mean something after Germany has just
>> > >lost a war trying to respand territorially. And it is just because Germany
>> > >considered its neighbors to be " bigots and cretins"
>>
>> > >during the 1930s that
>> > >Hitler was convinced that they could be enslaved or eliminated.
>>
>> > There is no evidence of that. You're just spouting the usual lame
>> > allied justification propaganda.
>>
>> No. Such measures as the passing of the Nuremberg Laws, the development of
>> laws and methods for the forced sterilization of racial undesirables and
>> the less than perfect, and, eventually, the implementation of the T-4
>> euthanasia program against the deformed, terminally ill, and elderly
>> ("useless mouths to feed"), as a means of carrying out internal racial
>> cleansing, all provided a methodological basis and dress rehearsal for
>> what was to be done to Nazi Germany's neighbors, particularly those to the
>> east. This is not "lame allied justification propaganda". This is a
>> central part of the history of Germany during the 1930s, history justified
>> and abundantly documented by the Nazis themselves in their media, films,
>> political speeches, and legislation.
>>
>> > >You failed to answer my question: What is the background to the ban on the
>> > >first two verses of the anthem? Why is the thought of Germans singing "Von
>> > >der Maas
>> > >> >bis an die Memel, von der Etsch bis an den Belt" regarded with
>> > >revulsion in Central Europe?
>>
>> > There is no "ban". All three verses are regularly used at football
>> > games, etc. For government functions, only the third verse is used. In
>> > any case, verses one and two are pretty innocuous, especially compared
>> > to other European national anthems. It seems that the smaller the
>> > country the more ferocious is its national anthem, even the French
>> > national anthem is pretty vicious. Nobody should need to appologize
>> > for the German national anthem, which has nothing to do with Nazis.
>> > Allied nonsense interpretations should be their problem, not the
>> > problem of Germans.
>>
>> Nevertheless, the compact geography lesson is not appreciated in the
>> Netherlands (die Maas), Lithuania, Russia (die meml), Italy (die Etsch),
>> or Denmark (der Belt).
>> 
>>
>> Regards,
>> Eugene Holman
>
>kike

I would be more tempted to characterize Holman as a clueless arsehole
who has an anti-German obsession.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Dec 12 15:37:51 EST 2008
Article: 1968037 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: holocaust deniers logic. What tells the DOGMA
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
Message-ID: 
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On Wed, 10 Dec 2008 14:23:53 +0100, ZuLu 
wrote:

>Kenneth McVay OBC escribi�:
>> In article <4wu%k.3720$si6.80@edtnps83>, Kurt Knoll  wrote:
>>> And you certainly a con artist like you will not get an answer from me as 
>>> long as you shorten or alter the context of my replies.
>> 
>> Interesting, Frau Pikelhaube. You do not answer questions at all. What is
>> it that you are afraid of, being identified as a liar? Too late!
>> 
>> YOU have yet to prove that the Yale University Law "Avalon Project"
>> is "Jewish," as you claimed in August, 2008.
>> 
>... Usual bullshit
>
>Hola Makky, why do you insist in wasting your time with that kind of personal attacks

That is all that the mental midget known as Kenneth McVay has as
ammunition. He seldom discusses anything of substance and contents
himself to elementary-school-style taunts and personal invective.

>
>Why don't you think a little in order to expose a profitable work to argue about the 
>"strange" disposition of the "gas chambers" at KIV and V and the "strange" logistic 
>applied there to the cadavers' moves?
>
>Something which could be interesting to read for once...
>
>What tells the DOGMA, some amazing details of "gassing operations" at Birkenau:
>
>--> 14 showers heads for a 30 m x 7 m room (!!) and a 1 meter width "gas tight 
>door"(!!!) are the main "material proofs" to make of a morgue a "gas chamber" where 
>2000 (even 3000 according with other liar) had to be supposedly "gassed" at a time !!!
>
>The gas tight door mentioned on the cited document is of 1 m x 1,90 m. That means a
>passage of less than 1 meter width to enter the room.
>
>LESS THAN ONE METER TO MAKE ENTER 2000 PEOPLE IN A ROOM!!!!!
>
>Let Imagine the modus operandi of those standard "massive gassings" at Krema II and 
>Krema III (Auschwitz-Birkenau):
>
>We already know that 2000 people in a "shower room" with only 14 shower heads is not
>suspect to holoks.
>
>However, let us try to figure out materially what could have been a typical "gassing
>operation" of 2000 people at that place.
>
>Once the first 1000 people enter the room with only "14 showers heads" ** and realize 
>that such place is OBVIOUSLY NOT what they were supposedly told, they will enter in 
>panic and rush screaming to the little door where they will struggle desperately to 
>escape.
>
>[**] That means a concentration of about 5 persons per square meter to take a shower 
>with a shower head per 72 people!!! With the aimed 2000 people inside that would be 
>10 person per square meter and a shower head for 144. Try to imagine that PHYSICALLY.
>
>At the door, in a little vestibule between the so called "undressing room " and "gas
>chamber", there are the remaining 1000 people waiting "to take a shower".
>
>Logically, at hearing the screams of 1000 people into the "shower room" and fighting 
>to get out (just imagine the effect of 1000 people screaming into an underground 30 m 
>x 7 m room to the ones who are waiting next door into an underground vestibule), they 
>will enter immediately in panic at their turn.
>
>How could the few SS do to make all that uncontrollable crowd (1000 outside, 1000 
>inside) in panic enter the "gas chamber" trough a little less than 1 meter width 
>passage?????
>
>By shooting all of them? LOL
>
>Any shooting threat by SS (where were posted those SS in such little vestibule?)
>could have only made the things worst.
>
>At the first shoot at least hundreds would die crashed against the walls and would 
>have obstructed definitely the little passage.
>
>Isn't it amazing that such crowd's moves at such little door were NEVER commented by 
>the supposed "sonderkommandos"?
>
>Moreover, after 1 or 2 "attempts" of that sort and in front of the impossibility of
>controlling panicked crowds of 1000 to 2000 people into such little space, SS would 
>have quickly concluded that such "solution" was not particularly easy to carry out 
>and would have abandoned it ASAP for something more "practical".
>
>To resume: more a ludicrous situation IMPOSSIBLE to have been occurred.
>
>--> See how did "climbing ladders" SS manage to arrange the so called "gas chambers"
>at K IV and V.
>
>Nothing better than a picture:
>
>http://bp0.blogger.com/_AB36D4g8j4Q/R8GQ9jSjanI/AAAAAAAAAUw/kfxpQqqeotU/s1600-h/IMG_3028.JPG
>http://www.mazal.org/Pressac/Page%20Scans/Page399.htm
>
>How many 1 meter width "gas tight doors" (with peepholes!!) were installed there???
>
>WHY DID THEY MAKE 3 GAS CHAMBERS WHERE ONE ONLY WAS NEEDED?
>
>And why at a WRONG LOCATION?
>
>NOBODY KNOWS !!! THE DOGMA DOESN'T TELL ANYTHING ABOUT IT.
>
>Observe how were located the "multiple gas chambers" [A]** far from the ovens [E] 
>whilst the "undressing room" [D] was nearer them. Note how many 1 meter width doors 
>the supposed 2,400 victims (sic Pressac) had to pass to go to their fate.
>
>AND all that WITHOUT "false shower heads" to deceive them!!!
>
>Note how many doors had to pass through the "sonderkommandos" in charge to transport 
>the 2,4000 victims to the ovens.
>
>Who, in possession of all is sane mind, could believe in such amount of bullshit?
>
>[**] gas chambers were multiple there because it was too much easy to make 1 only 
>room, and, if we must believe in the DOGMA, SS loved apply that maxim in their 
>industrial plans:
>
>"Why make it simple when it can be complicated?"
>
>"Although the operating sequence looks simple enough, it had become irrational and
>ridiculous. It was irrational to have the victims going from the central room to the 
>gas chambers then being brought back, thus destroying the linear logic of the initial 
>design.
>It was ridiculous to have an SS man in a gasmask balancing on his short ladder with a 
>1 kg can of Zyklon-B in his left hand while he opened and then closed the 30 by 40 cm 
>shutter through which he introduced the pellets with his right hand. This performance 
>was to be repeated six times. If he was not capable of such a balancing act, the SS 
>had to climb his little ladder three times for each opening: first to open the 
>shutter (up and down), second to introduce the Zyklon-B (up and down) and third to 
>close the shutter (up and down). Six openings, eighteen times up and down the ladder 
>wearing a gasmask. A simulation shows that this exercise would take 10 minutes. A few 
>steps installed beneath each opening would have avoided all this performance. "
>
>http://www.mazal.org/Pressac/Pressac0386.htm
>
>The floor area of the block of three gas chambers was 240 m� (4800m�). 2,400 people 
>could therefore be squeezed in at a density of 10 per square meter. To gas them, 6 kg 
>of Zyklon-B would be required (at the rate put forward by Camp Commandant Hoess of 6 
>kg for 500 m� [ 1500 people in Kr. II/III] ). The SS pouring in the Zyklon-B would 
>have to introduce one 1 kg can in each of the six openings in the outside wall, 
>located about 2 meters from the ground.
>It would take four or five days to cremate these 2,400 bodies.
>
>http://www.mazal.org/Pressac/Pressac0384.htm
>
>What it does imply to desperately make "gas chambers" with mere morgues of whatever!!!!
>
>How many people know actually that kind of "technical details" about the HOAX?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Dec 12 15:37:51 EST 2008
Article: 1968038 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: State Dept on Germany's Respect for Civil Liberties, Including:  Freedom of Speech and Press
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
Message-ID: 
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On Wed, 10 Dec 2008 21:12:49 -0800 (PST), Michael Ejercito
 wrote:

>On Dec 9, 11:29�pm, "Ben Cramer"  wrote:
>> "Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in messagenews:b9tsj4lc0mdja274828pl581tk06sa4odb@4ax.com...
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Tue, 9 Dec 2008 16:07:59 +1000, "Ben Cramer"
>> >  wrote:
>>
>> >>"Attalus Soter"  wrote in message
>> >>news:904b05c4-d223-4247-b942-455da92a4d76@g38g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...
>> >>> 
>>
>> >>>http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2007/100561.htm
>>
>> >>> Section 2 Respect for Civil Liberties, Including:
>>
>> >>> a. Freedom of Speech and Press
>>
>> >>> The law provides for freedom of speech and of the press; while the
>> >>> government generally respected these rights, it imposed limits aimed
>> >>> at groups deemed extremist.
>>
>> >>> Distribution of the propaganda of proscribed organizations is illegal,
>> >>> as are statements inciting racial hatred, endorsing Nazism, and
>> >>> denying the Holocaust. On March 15, Germar Rudolf was found guilty in
>> >>> Manheim of denying the Holocaust and was sentenced to 30 months in
>> >>> prison. His book, Lectures on the Holocaust: A Controversial Question
>> >>> Cross-Examined, was banned. On February 15, Ernst Zuendel was
>> >>> sentenced to five years in prison for Holocaust denial and writing
>> >>> anti-Semitic essays in several right-wing extremist pamphlets.
>>
>> >>> Apart from these limitations, an active independent media expressed a
>> >>> wide variety of views without government restriction.
>> >>> 
>>
>> >>The Holocaust(tm) - The only historic event protected from critical
>> >>examination by legislation.
>>
>> >>What does that tell you?
>>
>> > Clearly the holocaustT REQUIRES legislative protection to survive.
>>
>> No argument from my end.
>>
>> You can go to jail for saying that in Germany. Isn't that strange?
>   You can go to jail in Turkey for saying that there WAS a genocide
>of the Armenians.

Turkey does not claim to be a model democracy as does modern Germany.
Obviously the German authorities are as arbitrary and authoritarian as
they ever were, but with different targets of their caprice.



>
> Michael


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Dec 12 15:37:51 EST 2008
Article: 1968057 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: To Johannes von Ebersdorf
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Tue, 9 Dec 2008 09:54:31 -0800 (PST), Peter Dopey
 wrote:

>Hi Johannes,
>
>(Or should I say: Hans Peter?)
>
>I have sent a message to the church you claim to be a member of that
>you are a Holocaust denier!
>
>No need to thank me! I'm just glad that I could be of service to you!
>
>Yours sincerely,
>
>Peter

LOL

This is typical of the intimidation tactics of the holocaust� cult,
which is almost identical to the sorts of persecutions to which gay
people were exposed in the past in which anonymous letters were sent
or phone calls were made to employers, relatives, etc.

All it proves is that you are human scum and that your messages are of
doubtful validity.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Dec 12 15:37:52 EST 2008
Article: 1968060 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What Cramer and his ilk have accomplished
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
Message-ID: 
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On Thu, 11 Dec 2008 07:06:25 +0200, holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene
Holman) wrote:

>In article
><5aa8e051-dc19-4e40-b0c8-6d1eeb6a726e@m2g2000vbp.googlegroups.com>, Joe
>Bruno  wrote:
>
>
>
>> The Germans make their own laws and it's none of my business.
>
>Unfortunately, it is not the Germans, but the EU, who are making these
>laws.

Dream on, Eugene. It has been Germany and its regime of allied
lackeys, that has been pushing for this type of legislation, and
Germany is, after all, the principal European power. Not much happens
in the EU that runs counter to Germany's wishes.


> And if your words violate the laws and can be seen in the EU, as the
>posting I am responding to cnd be, then it is your business.
>
>Welcome to the world of instant international communication.
>
>Regards,
>Eugene Holman


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Dec 12 15:37:52 EST 2008
Article: 1968061 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What Cramer and his ilk have accomplished
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Thu, 11 Dec 2008 08:47:08 +0200, holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene
Holman) wrote:

>In article
><7791697b-ea31-4842-9ffa-959b4bfbae0e@l42g2000yqe.googlegroups.com>, Joe
>Bruno  wrote:
>
>> On Dec 10, 9:06=A0pm, hol...@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman) wrote:
>> > In article
>> > <5aa8e051-dc19-4e40-b0c8-6d1eeb6a7...@m2g2000vbp.googlegroups.com>, Joe
>> >
>> > Bruno  wrote:
>> >
>> > 
>> >
>> > > The Germans make their own laws and it's none of my business.
>> >
>> > Unfortunately, it is not the Germans, but the EU, who are making these
>> > laws. And if your words violate the laws and can be seen in the EU, as th=
>> e
>> > posting I am responding to cnd be, then it is your business.
>> >
>> > Welcome to the world of instant international communication.
>> >
>> > Regards,
>> > Eugene Holman
>> 
>> I don't think they have the nerve to mess with An American citizen
>> living on American soil.
>> The USA would never extradite me.
>
>You never know. Dr. Toben was arrested on a German warrant while changing
>planes at London when traveling from the US to Dubai. More importantly,
>the US is a pioneer on develping this principle of extraterritoriality,
>the idea that some of its laws hold all over the globe and apply to
>everyone. That's why it has been able to arrest and hold without charges
>so-called "illegeal combatants", some of them citizens of the UK, Canada,
>Sweden, and Austrialia, at Guantanamo. These people were mostly arrested
>for violating US laws because they were fighting as lower-level Taliban
>operatives or attending al-Qaida training camps in Afghanistan.


> The world is changing.

It has always been changing, but in this case definitely not for the
better. The USA has never been a respecter of international law,
except of course for its own narrow propaganda uses.

>
>Regards,
>Eugene Holman


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Dec 12 15:37:52 EST 2008
Article: 1968062 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What Cramer and his ilk have accomplished
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On Thu, 11 Dec 2008 19:28:02 +1000, "Ben Cramer"
 wrote:

>
>"Karl"  wrote in message 
>news:ghporm$ped$1@reader.motzarella.org...
>> Ben is not making this law. It is Jews who push for such things.
>>
>> I forget the name of the man persecuting Toben but he was a Jew.
>
>He is Andreas Grossmann.

Usually double-n is not Jewish, but there are exceptions.

>
>Yougenie will now advise you that you have no evidence to prove he is a yid.
>
>It doesn't matter that he's recently defamed me with statements he's made 
>without any evidence.
>
>That's the way the yids work.
>
>One rule for us - None for them.
>
>
>
>
>>
>>
>> "Eugene Holman"  wrote in message 
>> news:holman-1012082204210001@c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi...
>>> Thanks, Ben.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Eugene Holman
>>>
>>>
>>> Source: 
>>> http://bnp.org.uk/2008/12/eu-police-state-plans-gulags-for-thought-=
>>> crimes/
>>>
>>> 
>>> EU Police State Plans Gulags for Thought Crimes
>>> December 2, 2008 by BNP News
>>>
>>> In yet another direct violation of traditional civil liberties, the EU
>>> super state has announced that it will be introducing a range of thought
>>> crimes which include Oracism, incitement to hatred, apology, denial or
>>> trivialisation of genocide�-punishable by up to three years in prison.
>>>
>>> The announcement, made in Brussels last Friday and ignored by the entire
>>> world�s media, was made by the European Commission which said that member
>>> states have agreed to establish these penalties in their laws.
>>>
>>> �It took nearly seven years of negotiations to achieve this,� said
>>> European Justice Commissioner Jacques Barrot.
>>>
>>> �I welcome the introduction of strict and effective sanctions against
>>> these violations of human rights and fundamental freedoms which are 
>>> common
>>> principles for European countries,� he added, ignoring the fact that
>>> freedom of speech is also a fundamental freedom, which he has 
>>> successfully
>>> crushed.
>>>
>>> While no-one would encourage hatred against anybody else, the law is
>>> clearly being framed in such a way as to become a catch-all for anyone 
>>> who
>>> would dare suggest that European nations have a right to remain European.
>>>
>>> The new law will also be directed specifically at the Internet.
>>>
>>> In what is obviously aimed at Holocaust Revisionism, the EU also intends
>>> to punish �the apology, denial or gross trivialisation of public crimes 
>>> of
>>> genocide, crimes against humanity and war crimes as defined by the
>>> International Criminal Court.�
>>>
>>> This will quickly turn into a prickly issue, as Turkey�s denial of the
>>> Armenian Holocaust will effectively criminalise that state as it tries to
>>> join the EU.
>>>
>>> It is thus ironic that the EU, which claims to be anti-fascist, is in 
>>> fact
>>> resorting to the very fascist tactics of denial of freedom of speech and
>>> arrest and imprisonment of people whose only crime is to think thoughts
>>> which they do not like.
>>>
>>> What is next? The re-opening of Dachau for political dissidents? It seems
>>> not so far-fetched anymore.
>>>
>>> * UKIP supporters should be aware that in January 2005, UKIP MEPs voted 
>>> in
>>> favour of these originally-drafted laws in the European Parliament.
>>> 
>>
>> 


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Dec 12 15:37:52 EST 2008
Article: 1968063 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pearl Harbor Revisionism: "Day of Infamy" no more
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On Thu, 11 Dec 2008 12:44:05 -0800, Anonymous 
wrote:

>
>
>The Japs used the Bush Doctrine of "pre-emptive" strikes which is
>standard procedure now, so it must have been legal back then too.  The
>phrase "day of infamy" can now be properly applied to the day the
>Republican Supreme Court made George Bush president.  

Keep in mind that the USA is special in that it is exempt from
international law and custom. It is only  its adversaries who are
obliged to abide by international law.

>
>"Remember Pearl Harbor!"   
>http://www.truthout.org/120708A
>"Pre-emptive" war, then and now
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed Dec 24 13:18:41 EST 2008
Article: 1969040 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Sylvia Stolz was locked up for what reason?
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Thu, 11 Dec 2008 15:23:35 +0200, holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene
Holman) wrote:

>In article ,
>ebersdorf@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 10 Dec 2008 08:34:55 +0200, holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene
>> Holman) wrote:
>
>> 
>> Obviously you favour all manner of gross injustice as long as it is
>> directed against Germans. Your anti-German obsession is pathetic.
>
>Mein guter Mann, ich bin nicht deutschfeindlich. Ich habe die deutsche
>Sprache, Kultur und Geschichte jahrelang studiert, und ich habe in
>Deutschland geowohnt, gearbeitet und studiert.
>
>Als geb�rtiger Amerikaner hatte ich als Kind das Schicksal, unter Leuten
>die Deutschland gleichzeitig liebten und ha�ten aufzuwachsen. Das war
>n�mlich in New York City, wo ich meine Kindheit unter deutschen und
>deutsch-j�dischen Fl�chtlingen verbracht habe. Die deutsch-j�dischen
>Fl�chtlingen insbesondere waren stolz darauf Tr�ger deutscher Kultur zu
>sein, obwohl sie sich die j�dischfeindlichen Ma�nahmen des
>Nationalsozialismus, die sie Heimatvertriebene machten, nie vergessen oder
>wiedergutgemacht zu werden erlauben konnten.
>
>F�r Deutschland und das deutsche Volk habe ich keinen Ha�. Ich bin sehr
>froh, da� ich die Gelegenheit gehabt habe sie gut kennenzulernen w�hrend
>der letzten f�nfzig Jahre. Meine erste Deutschstunde hatte ich in einem
>New Yorker Gymnasium in September 1958. Ich betrat deutschen Boden zum
>ersten mal in Frankfurt-am-Main an 23en Juni, 1964. 
>
>Mit Bekanntschaft kommt aber auch Kritik. Viele Deutschen sind mit mir
>total einverstanden, da� die Hitlerzeit die d�nkleste der tausendj�hrigen
>deutschen Geschichte ist. Einer hat sogar ein ins Englische �bersetztes
>B�chlein dar�ber  als Warnung f�r die Welt geschrieben: Bernhard Schreiber
>"The Men behind Hitler", http://www.toolan.com/hitler/index.html. Sein
>Werk �ussert seine tiefe Liebe, nicht Ha�, f�r Deutschland.

Der eingetrichterte Selbstha� von vielen Deutschen bringt mich fast
zum Kotzen. Wer kann solche h�ssliche verwerfliche Wurm-Menschen gut
einsch�tzen? Eine Diktatur ist eben eine Diktatur, aber die Behauptung
dass die Diktatur der NS in Deutschland das �belste aller Zeiten war,
ist leichtsinnige allierte Propaganda der den Zweck hat alle Deutsche
zu dem�tigen. 

Als Deutsch-Kanadier verwerfe ich diesen amerikanischen Dreck. 
Sie kennen wohl schon meine Meinung �ber das heuchlerische Amerika.

>
>Mit freundlichem Gru�,
>Eugene Holman


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed Dec 24 13:18:41 EST 2008
Article: 1969052 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Sylvia Stolz was locked up for what reason?
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On Fri, 12 Dec 2008 06:23:52 -0800 (PST), I AM A TRUE CHRISTIAN
 wrote:

>On 11 Dec, 23:00, hol...@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman) wrote:
>> In article
>> , I AM
>> A TRUE CHRISTIAN  wrote:
>>
>> 
>>
>> > never seen such an boastful son of a bitch ever, you say youve got an
>> > Mercedes, a Aston perhaps aswell?
>>
>> I have never owned a car and do not even have a driving license. I always
>> walk or use public transporation as a matter of principle.
>>
>> > You just talk about sex and money,
>> > the thing is, you have a mini metro, you hire prostitutes and earn $9
>> > a day,
>>
>> My days of being interested in or engaging in sex are long past. I earn a
>> comfortable amount of money, but with no spouse, car, mortgage, or issue,
>> I spend very little of it. As to earning " $9 a day", that is close to
>> minimum *hourly* wage here in Finland.
>>
>> > if you do have a Mercedes
>>
>> ...but I don't and would never want to.
>>
>> > and bags of cash
>>
>> ...have them, but they are invested and earning dividends and interest.
>>
>> > and lovely homes,
>>
>> ...I have only one, in an up-market area of central Helsinki, thank you
>> very much.
>>
>> > then don't you have something more important to do than spoute lies
>>
>> ...lies? Name one. Amd it's *spout*, not *spoute*, oh orthographically
>> challenged one.
>>
>> > and insults over GOOGLEFORUM
>>
>> ...insults? Produce an example of one.
>>
>> When did you last consult with your psychotherapist? Last I heard, I am
>> allowed to use my free time as I wish.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Eugene Holman
>
>finland is nazi pro hitler in war ,finland killed jews

Mr. Holman is apparently a black New Yorker currently working in
Finland. You're barking up the wrong tree. Finland is neither Nazi nor
pro-Hitler. They simply acted in what they believed were the best
interests of Finland, and they found the Soviet Union a much bigger
threat than they found Germany.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed Dec 24 13:18:42 EST 2008
Article: 1969053 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: holocaust deniers logic. What tells the DOGMA
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Fri, 12 Dec 2008 15:47:18 +0100, Zulu  wrote:

>Philip Mathews escribi�:
>> On Dec 11, 8:43 am, Zulu  wrote:
>>> RJ11 escribi�:
>>>
>>>> In article , ZuLu   wrote:
>>>>    (snip)
>>>>    In a memo written on September 8 1942,  Kurt Prufer of the
>>>> firm "Topf and Sons" stated that Auschwitz officials are not
>>>> satisfied with a cremation capacity of 2,650 corpses per day,
>>>> and "we should deliver more ovens as quickly as possible".
>>>>    http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/topf/
>>> That not answers my question:
>>>
>>> Coke and wood consumption at Auschwitz since March 1943?
>> 
>> Irrelevant.
>
>
>LOL, and you pretend to be serious?
>Go back to school and ask the professor why such data could be interesting.

This guy is a twit. How can the fuel for the alleged crematoria ever
be irrelevant? The lack of fuel for these installations is one of the
reasons that I severely doubt this story.

It is like somebody telling me that they drove from Toronto to
Montreal with the Cadillac on only one litre of fuel.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed Dec 24 13:18:43 EST 2008
Article: 1969784 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Sylvia Stolz was locked up for what reason?
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Sun, 14 Dec 2008 23:08:42 -0500, "Patrick Keenan" 
wrote:

>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message 
>news:vtu1k49vavbug2mtlkrj3k16uchc0suvv0@4ax.com...
>> On Wed, 10 Dec 2008 08:34:55 +0200, holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene
>> Holman) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <5qtsj4t7ts8agif258i2t6do6uidoqdo5r@4ax.com>,
>>>ebersdorf@gmail.com wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Tue, 09 Dec 2008 15:38:53 +0200, holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene
>>>> Holman) wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> >
>>>> >Anybody concerned about people in Germany getting the idea that the
>>>> >boundaries mentioned in the poem mean something after Germany has just
>>>> >lost a war trying to respand territorially. And it is just because 
>>>> >Germany
>>>> >considered its neighbors to be " bigots and cretins"
>>>>
>>>> >during the 1930s that
>>>> >Hitler was convinced that they could be enslaved or eliminated.
>>>>
>>>> There is no evidence of that. You're just spouting the usual lame
>>>> allied justification propaganda.
>>>
>>>No. Such measures as the passing of the Nuremberg Laws, the development of
>>>laws and methods for the forced sterilization of racial undesirables and
>>>the less than perfect, and, eventually, the implementation of the T-4
>>>euthanasia program against the deformed, terminally ill, and elderly
>>>("useless mouths to feed"), as a means of carrying out internal racial
>>>cleansing, all provided a methodological basis and dress rehearsal for
>>>what was to be done to Nazi Germany's neighbors, particularly those to the
>>>east. This is not "lame allied justification propaganda". This is a
>>>central part of the history of Germany during the 1930s, history justified
>>>and abundantly documented by the Nazis themselves in their media, films,
>>>political speeches, and legislation.
>>
>> The Canadian province of Alberta and many jurisdictions in the USA did
>> the same sort of thing
>
>Show where these governments engaged in offically sanctioned murder 
>programs.

The German euthanasia program was not "officially sanctioned" either.
Relatives were told that death was by natural causes.

>
>Here's a hint:  In North America, at the time, there was extreme resistance 
>to any kind of termination programs, including abortion and suicide in any 
>form.
>
>You won't be able to show that your comparison is valid.
>
>
>> during the same time-frame, so why the
>> irrational and hypocritical German-bashing?
>
>First, the two examples you give are false on their face.
>
>While both jurisdictions may have engaged in sterilization, neither 
>officially engaged in the type of "euthanization", which is known in the 
>jurisdictions you cite as murder.
>
>I think that you will find that those who unofficially engaged in murder of 
>the handicapped in the jurisdictions you present as examples have been 
>prosecuted if identified and still living, so there is no "hypocritical 
>German-bashing".
>
>If you can prove that this isn't so, present the cases where such murders 
>were committed.
>
>Second, these murders and sterilizations were official polcies of the 
>National Socialist government of Germany.   These were never policies of the 
>National Governments in North America.
>
>
>So on two accounts your examples are false, not that that's unusual.
>
>And please, don't give us this crap where you pretend that the Nazi death 
>camps and North American internment camps are equivalent.
>
>
>HTH
>-pk
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>> >You failed to answer my question: What is the background to the ban on 
>>>> >the
>>>> >first two verses of the anthem? Why is the thought of Germans singing 
>>>> >"Von
>>>> >der Maas
>>>> >> >bis an die Memel, von der Etsch bis an den Belt" regarded with
>>>> >revulsion in Central Europe?
>>>>
>>>> There is no "ban". All three verses are regularly used at football
>>>> games, etc. For government functions, only the third verse is used. In
>>>> any case, verses one and two are pretty innocuous, especially compared
>>>> to other European national anthems. It seems that the smaller the
>>>> country the more ferocious is its national anthem, even the French
>>>> national anthem is pretty vicious. Nobody should need to appologize
>>>> for the German national anthem, which has nothing to do with Nazis.
>>>> Allied nonsense interpretations should be their problem, not the
>>>> problem of Germans.
>>>
>>>Nevertheless, the compact geography lesson is not appreciated in the
>>>Netherlands (die Maas), Lithuania, Russia (die meml), Italy (die Etsch),
>>>or Denmark (der Belt).
>>>
>>>
>>>Regards,
>>>Eugene Holman 
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed Dec 24 13:18:43 EST 2008
Article: 1970253 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Celebrating Christmas without the jew
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Mon, 15 Dec 2008 19:37:55 +0000 (UTC), "I'll Always Bee Here"
 wrote:

>"Kurt Knoll"  wrote in news:Ody1l.79$Ve.55@edtnps82:
>
>> 
>> "I'll Always Bee Here"  wrote in message 
>> news:Xns9B75739F41B80Theonlyonethatcares@87.106.137.111...
>>> "Kurt Knoll"  wrote in news:rqx1l.42$Ve.15
>@edtnps82:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> "william hubbard"  wrote in message
>>>> news:5ebcd493-8235-47ab-aab4-
>>> 3b65e66b3feb@a26g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>>>> On Dec 15, 1:00 am, "Heinrich"  wrote:
>>>>> "I'll Always Bee Here"  schreef in
>>>>> berichtnews:Xns9B757EB660F8Theonlyonethatcares@87.106.137.111...>
>>>>> "Heinrich"  wrote in news:6qmh2uFd85ehU1
>>>>> > @mid.individual.net:
>>>>>
>>>>> >> The juden dominate the Christian Holiday of Christmas. They've 
>taken
>>>>> >> over
>>>>> >> its meaning, its traditions and the merchandising of it. Is it
>>> posible
>>>>> >> to
>>>>> >> celebrate the Christian Holiday of Christmas without the jew?
>>> Discuss -
>>>>>
>>>>> > Oh please don't. How will we ever survive without gullible goy who
>>> think
>>>>> > buying presents is the christian way. YOu'll start a world-wide
>>>>> > financial
>>>>> > crisis
>>>>>
>>>>> shut up and start singing christmas carols in the synagogue
>>>>
>>>> it would be more daring to try that in a mosque..after all, our
>>>> president says that "islam is a religion of peace"..
>>>>
>>>> They are as long you leave them alone.
>>>> Kurt Knoll.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Germans used to be known as civilized people

They still are.

>> 
>> I know jews are not.
>> kk 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>
>You are Jewish


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed Dec 24 13:18:43 EST 2008
Article: 1970254 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What is this Israeli telling us that people haven't known for 2500 years?
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Tue, 16 Dec 2008 05:54:38 GMT, "Kurt Knoll" 
wrote:

>How can you talk about Finkelstein the way to do. Not all the Jews are 
>exploiters but you are. What irks me the most is the way you victimize 
>others, Could it be you do not want others to find out what kind of game you 
>play. Definitely society get suspicious if you victimize them for asking 
>questions. Trust must be earned and a two facet parasite like you does not 
>deserve any respect. The way Finkelsteine sees it you are disgrace for the 
>Jewish cause and community.

I find that I agree with Norman Finkelstein on that issue. Garbageguz
is enough to make a person puke.

>Kurt Knoll.
>
>"jgarbuz"  wrote in message 
>news:d3180945-4275-44ec-906e-148ece735e25@v42g2000yqv.googlegroups.com...
>On Dec 15, 7:47 pm, "Red Greene"  wrote:
>>  wrote in message
>>
>> news:YtC1l.2086$7I6.763@nwrddc01.gnilink.net...
>>
>>
>>
>> > On 15-Dec-2008, "Red Greene"  wrote:
>>
>> >>http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/article.php?pg=11&ar=2209
>>
>> > H's telling people all sorts of things that aren't true.
>> > He's telling bigots everything they've wanted to believe for years.
>> > What else would anyone with 2 brain cells to rub together think
>> > that Finkelstien would say? The man's a lunatic (at best).
>>
>> > Susan
>>
>> Finkelstein did not write it, and Israeli named Yehuda Nuriel
>> did. Can't you read?<
>
>While it is true that Israelis are rude and insensitive, nevertheless,
>Finkelstein is a well-known traitor in a long line of Jewish traitors
>going back to the time of Moses , if not earlier.  He's one of the
>many Benedict Arnolds of the Jewish people.
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed Dec 24 13:18:44 EST 2008
Article: 1970255 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What is this Israeli telling us that people haven't known for 2500 years?
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Tue, 16 Dec 2008 00:00:46 -0600, American Eagle  wrote:

>jgarbuz wrote:
>> On Dec 15, 7:47 pm, "Red Greene"  wrote:
>>>  wrote in message
>>>
>>> news:YtC1l.2086$7I6.763@nwrddc01.gnilink.net...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On 15-Dec-2008, "Red Greene"  wrote:
>>>>> http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/article.php?pg=11&ar=2209
>>>> H's telling people all sorts of things that aren't true.
>>>> He's telling bigots everything they've wanted to believe for years.
>>>> What else would anyone with 2 brain cells to rub together think
>>>> that Finkelstien would say? The man's a lunatic (at best).
>>>> Susan
>>> Finkelstein did not write it, and Israeli named Yehuda Nuriel
>>> did.  Can't you read?<
>> 
>> While it is true that Israelis are rude and insensitive, nevertheless,
>> Finkelstein is a well-known traitor in a long line of Jewish traitors
>> going back to the time of Moses , if not earlier.  He's one of the
>> many Benedict Arnolds of the Jewish people.
>
>How in Hell can anyone be called a traitor to the Jews? The Jews are the
>conniving, thieving, murderous, vultures that contaminate earths humanity.

You are being unfair to vultures. Vultures perform a valuable service.

>> 


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed Dec 24 13:18:44 EST 2008
Article: 1970256 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What is this Israeli telling us that people haven't known for 2500 years?
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Tue, 16 Dec 2008 08:27:19 GMT, flaviaR@verizon.net wrote:

>
>On 15-Dec-2008, "Red Greene"  wrote:
>
>>  wrote in message
>> news:YtC1l.2086$7I6.763@nwrddc01.gnilink.net...
>> >
>> > On 15-Dec-2008, "Red Greene"  wrote:
>> >
>> >> http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/article.php?pg=11&ar=2209
>> >
>> >
>> > He's telling people all sorts of things that aren't true.
>> > He's telling bigots everything they've wanted to believe for years.
>> > What else would anyone with 2 brain cells to rub together think
>> > that Finkelstien would say? The man's a lunatic (at best).
>> >
>> > Susan
>>
>> Finkelstein did not write it, and Israeli named Yehuda Nuriel
>> did.  Can't you read?
>
>Actually, I didn't bother to check.
>Nothing that comes from Finkelstein's site could
>be truthful, because he does not deal in truth.

LOL

You don't say, Susie. Kenny and his bunch certainly do not deal in
truth either, so what is your point, if indeed there is one?


>
>Susan


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed Dec 24 13:18:44 EST 2008
Article: 1970257 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Israelis' violent, vulgar behavior abroad is root of growing  hatred towards us that has nothing to do with anti-Semitism
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Mon, 15 Dec 2008 15:46:42 -0800 (PST),
simple.language.yahoo@gmail.com wrote:

>Is "Johnny Asia" a Muslim pig or a dhimmi?

Violent and vulgar pretty much sums up Israel and its population of
Russian and Polish Jews who really have no business in the middle
east.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed Dec 24 13:18:45 EST 2008
Article: 1970359 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Celebrating Christmas without the jew
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
Message-ID: 
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On Tue, 16 Dec 2008 20:08:00 +0000 (UTC), "I'll Always B Here"
 wrote:

>Johannes von Ebersdorf  wrote in 
>news:0qgfk41jk2mjh5768dks6uh18h2fsd3d3n@4ax.com:
>
>> On Mon, 15 Dec 2008 19:37:55 +0000 (UTC), "I'll Always Bee Here"
>>  wrote:
>> 
>>>"Kurt Knoll"  wrote in news:Ody1l.79$Ve.55@edtnps82:
>>>
>>>> 
>>>> "I'll Always Bee Here"  wrote in message 
>>>> news:Xns9B75739F41B80Theonlyonethatcares@87.106.137.111...
>>>>> "Kurt Knoll"  wrote in news:rqx1l.42$Ve.15
>>>@edtnps82:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "william hubbard"  wrote in message
>>>>>> news:5ebcd493-8235-47ab-aab4-
>>>>> 3b65e66b3feb@a26g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>>>>>> On Dec 15, 1:00 am, "Heinrich"  wrote:
>>>>>>> "I'll Always Bee Here"  schreef in
>>>>>>> berichtnews:Xns9B757EB660F8Theonlyonethatcares@87.106.137.111...>
>>>>>>> "Heinrich"  wrote in news:6qmh2uFd85ehU1
>>>>>>> > @mid.individual.net:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> >> The juden dominate the Christian Holiday of Christmas. They've 
>>>taken
>>>>>>> >> over
>>>>>>> >> its meaning, its traditions and the merchandising of it. Is it
>>>>> posible
>>>>>>> >> to
>>>>>>> >> celebrate the Christian Holiday of Christmas without the jew?
>>>>> Discuss -
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> > Oh please don't. How will we ever survive without gullible goy 
>who
>>>>> think
>>>>>>> > buying presents is the christian way. YOu'll start a world-wide
>>>>>>> > financial
>>>>>>> > crisis
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> shut up and start singing christmas carols in the synagogue
>>>>>>
>>>>>> it would be more daring to try that in a mosque..after all, our
>>>>>> president says that "islam is a religion of peace"..
>>>>>>
>>>>>> They are as long you leave them alone.
>>>>>> Kurt Knoll.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Germans used to be known as civilized people
>> 
>> They still are.
>
>
>Some of them. It only took two world wars to breed out the war mongering 
>christians amongst them

Oh horseshit...They were definitely NOT responsible for WW1 and even
their responsibility for WW2 is doubtful. If you're looking for war
mongers, you need look no further than Britain and the USA. They are
both far more jingoistic than Germans have ever been.

>
>
>> 
>>>> 
>>>> I know jews are not.
>>>> kk 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>
>>>You are Jewish
>> 


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed Dec 24 13:18:45 EST 2008
Article: 1970361 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Celebrating Christmas without the jew
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Tue, 16 Dec 2008 20:08:53 +0000 (UTC), "I'll Always B Here"
 wrote:

>Johannes von Ebersdorf  wrote in 
>news:0qgfk41jk2mjh5768dks6uh18h2fsd3d3n@4ax.com:
>
>> On Mon, 15 Dec 2008 19:37:55 +0000 (UTC), "I'll Always Bee Here"
>>  wrote:
>> 
>>>"Kurt Knoll"  wrote in news:Ody1l.79$Ve.55@edtnps82:
>>>
>>>> 
>>>> "I'll Always Bee Here"  wrote in message 
>>>> news:Xns9B75739F41B80Theonlyonethatcares@87.106.137.111...
>>>>> "Kurt Knoll"  wrote in news:rqx1l.42$Ve.15
>>>@edtnps82:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "william hubbard"  wrote in message
>>>>>> news:5ebcd493-8235-47ab-aab4-
>>>>> 3b65e66b3feb@a26g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>>>>>> On Dec 15, 1:00 am, "Heinrich"  wrote:
>>>>>>> "I'll Always Bee Here"  schreef in
>>>>>>> berichtnews:Xns9B757EB660F8Theonlyonethatcares@87.106.137.111...>
>>>>>>> "Heinrich"  wrote in news:6qmh2uFd85ehU1
>>>>>>> > @mid.individual.net:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> >> The juden dominate the Christian Holiday of Christmas. They've 
>>>taken
>>>>>>> >> over
>>>>>>> >> its meaning, its traditions and the merchandising of it. Is it
>>>>> posible
>>>>>>> >> to
>>>>>>> >> celebrate the Christian Holiday of Christmas without the jew?
>>>>> Discuss -
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> > Oh please don't. How will we ever survive without gullible goy 
>who
>>>>> think
>>>>>>> > buying presents is the christian way. YOu'll start a world-wide
>>>>>>> > financial
>>>>>>> > crisis
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> shut up and start singing christmas carols in the synagogue
>>>>>>
>>>>>> it would be more daring to try that in a mosque..after all, our
>>>>>> president says that "islam is a religion of peace"..
>>>>>>
>>>>>> They are as long you leave them alone.
>>>>>> Kurt Knoll.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Germans used to be known as civilized people
>> 
>> They still are.
>
>I notice you say "they" not "we". You finally got it correct

You're babbling incoherently. Germany has always been one of the
world's most civilized countries having one of the world's highest
literacy rates.

>
>
>
>> 
>>>> 
>>>> I know jews are not.
>>>> kk 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>
>>>You are Jewish
>> 


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed Dec 24 13:18:46 EST 2008
Article: 1970371 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: NefeshBarYochai is a Zionist.
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Tue, 16 Dec 2008 10:28:12 -0800 (PST), jgarbuz
 wrote:

>On Dec 16, 1:19�pm, Cisco  wrote:
>> So is.. jgarbuz, drahcir , and
>> DoD . Don't be fooled by them.
>> They will destroy Judaism while
>> promoting their version of Christianity.<
>
>I am a Zionist but also believe that Christians should be "Christ-
>like" in their lives.
>
>> They are Spies, and Infiltrators.
>> They are Fascists, seeking to do Judaism
>> WRONG. They will destroy Judaism by
>> pretending to be Jewish or by
>> sympathizing with them. They don't even
>> believe in Jesus, but they will use Christianity
>> in order to proliferate their ideal of a Zionist
>> (christian) state in Israel.<
>
>Zionism is the heart of Judaism. 

Zionism is a devaluation and corruption of Judaism.


>Genesis tells that God called Abram
>to go to "the land I will show you." Abraham followed God because God
>promised him a land of his own. Without the land, the promise is
>worthless and useless.

Demonstrate that your tribal god exists. Why should others step aside
for your ridiculous superstitions?

>He didn't just follow this God for kicks. Or for suffering for its own
>sake. He did it for land.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed Dec 24 13:18:46 EST 2008
Article: 1970372 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: NefeshBarYochai is a Zionist.
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Tue, 16 Dec 2008 11:26:33 -0800 (PST), jgarbuz
 wrote:

>On Dec 16, 2:11�pm, Cisco  wrote:
>> On Dec 16, 2:01�pm, Poor Eli Grabmen is a Real Psychopath! LOL
>>
>>
>>
>>  wrote:
>> > On Tue, 16 Dec 2008 10:19:33 -0800 (PST), Cisco wrote:
>> > > So is.. jgarbuz, drahcir , and
>> > > DoD .
>
>
>>
>> So yer either a Zionist, or a Zionist sympathizer. In Either case yer
>> WRONG!
>> Judaism isn't about Israel, get that through yer thick head.<
>
>Are you a Jew? What do you know about it? Judaism is all about the
>Land of Israel. Our holidays are about the land of ISrael. Passover is
>about freedom from bondage in Egypt

Ah yes, the mythical escape from Egypt that no ancient Egyptian
chronicals seem to have noticed and where no physical evidence of the
escape can be found.

> and coming to our land. Shavuoth,
>or Feast of Weeks, is all about the harvest time IN Israel. Chanukkah
>is about the (temporary) liberation of the Temple from pagan Greco-
>Syrian control in Jerusalem. Tisha B'Av is about mourning the
>destruction of our Temples. Judaism is not about socialism or
>communism or other leftist causes.Or about good food and wine, or
>going to a nice play on Broadway. For some Jews, that may be their
>idea.  But that's not Judaism. Judaism is about the promise of God,
>that if we follow Him, we will get our tiny land to keep.

Your god is the creation of ancient Jewish priests, and there is no
surprise that a Jewish god would be fanatically pro-Jewish. Every
other tribal deity tends to be fanatically in favour of the tribe that
created him/her. You are making territorial claims based on totally
absurd superstitions.


>
>> You gonna start Parodying me, like you do Eli? Go ahead, you
>> will lose.. �..simply because I'm right and yer WRONG!<
>
>I CANNOT lose because all truth is on my side. THere is no way you can
>defeat me. You're not even a Jew.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed Dec 24 13:18:46 EST 2008
Article: 1970373 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: NefeshBarYochai is a Zionist.
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
Message-ID: <9j9gk4dk9q71clevos5ud0e5hhqgef9ig3@4ax.com>
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On Tue, 16 Dec 2008 12:05:25 -0800 (PST), NefeshBarYochai
 wrote:

>On Dec 16, 11:19�am, Cisco  wrote:
>> So is.. jgarbuz, drahcir , and
>> DoD . Don't be fooled by them.
>> They will destroy Judaism while
>> promoting their version of Christianity.
>> They are Spies, and Infiltrators.
>> They are Fascists, seeking to do Judaism
>> WRONG. They will destroy Judaism by
>> pretending to be Jewish or by
>> sympathizing with them. They don't even
>> believe in Jesus, but they will use Christianity
>> in order to proliferate their ideal of a Zionist
>> (christian) state in Israel. They are NOT
>> interested in peace notice their dialog and
>> you will know full well. No jew speaks as
>> they do, or Christian for Jesus either.
>>
>> They are out out destroy, and not create
>> anything, including PEACE!
>>
>> BEWARE!!!
>>
>> --
>> When things get worse before they get better, don't tell them I didn't
>> warn you!
>> -www.cisco.co.nr
>
>Yes I am a Zionist and if I ever catch you on my homeland Eretz Israel
>I will cut you up and feed you to the aligators at Hamet Gedar.

It seems that we have another murderous Jewish swine on our hands.
That too is hardly a surprise.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed Dec 24 13:18:47 EST 2008
Article: 1971127 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Israel�s Terror Rampage
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
Message-ID: 
References: <6qq2hrFd7g4eU1@mid.individual.net> <09604cce-0949-4b8f-b62a-b4e19fb74773@z27g2000prd.googlegroups.com>  <1vW1l.473$Ve.437@edtnps82> 
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On Tue, 16 Dec 2008 18:09:45 -0800 (PST), jgarbuz
 wrote:

>On Dec 16, 6:05�pm, "Kurt Knoll"  wrote:
>> GO AND SEE A SHRINK YOU NEED IT BECAUSE YOU BELIEVE YOUR OWN bull shit.
>>
>
>Go shoot yourself in the head like your Fuehrer and follow him into
>ValHELLA, you Nazi scum.

LOL

You really are rather tiresome, garbageguz.



From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed Dec 24 13:18:47 EST 2008
Article: 1971128 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Israel�s Terror Rampage
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
Message-ID: 
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On Tue, 16 Dec 2008 18:11:17 -0800 (PST), jgarbuz
 wrote:

>On Dec 16, 11:15�am, "Heinrich"  wrote:
>> If anybody is still having any doubt that Israel (government and citizens)
>> is a terrorist state par excellence then the latest events during the last
>> two months alone in occupied Palestine should convince him of this fact. For
>> the last two year the Israeli government has been tightening its deadly
>> siege against Palestinians in the Gaza Strip. <
>
>It should do what your Fuehrer did, and start bringing in gas chambers
>and crematoria, to make a "final solution" to the problem of Gaza.
>
Israeli methods are far more effective and much simpler than the
convoluted approach alleged for the Nazis. Eisenhower's camps had a
higher death rate than the Nazi camps, and American camps operated
simply by starvation, lack of sanitation, and bullets. It only goes to
prove that gas chambers are totally superfluous to the task of
producing high mortality rates.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed Dec 24 13:18:48 EST 2008
Article: 1971371 of alt.revisionism
Path: border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-in-01.newsfeed.easynews.com!core-easynews!easynews.com!easynews!en-nntp-03.dc1.easynews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Israel�s Terror Rampage
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
Message-ID: <3vrkk4de1lesq7ho0ntanckc2eedru7cq8@4ax.com>
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On Wed, 17 Dec 2008 21:31:55 +0000 (UTC), a-little-sanity,  please
 wrote:

>In article ,
>Johannes von Ebersdorf   wrote:
>
>>  Eisenhower's camps had a higher death rate than the Nazi camps,
>
>Mr. Hans-Peter Skaliks,  you're crazier than a bedbug.
>
>Where were these photographs taken,  Mr. Skaliks?

LOL

If you're waiting for an answer from Skaliks, you are waiting in vain.
I just borrow his wireless internet modem, but I have my opinions and
he has his. You seem to be even more stupid than Kenny, who clearly
figures that the name coming up on his IP search program is
automatically the person making the posts. 

I guess one of these years I should spend the money and get my own
connection, but this is so much cheaper. When I do get my own
connection, I guess that I'll have to spring for the extra money for a
proxy connection so that I won't have to put up with the human garbage
element on the net. These vulgar intimidation techniques of yours are
pathetic.

>
>http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/ftp.py?camps//bergen-belsen/images/belsen01.jpg
>http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/ftp.py?camps//bergen-belsen/images/belsen02.jpg
>http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/ftp.py?camps//ohrdruf/images/ohrdruf-02.jpg
>http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/ftp.py?camps//nordhausen/images/nordhausen-01.jpg
>http://isurvived.org/Pictures_iSurvived-4/dachau-corpses.GIF
>http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/ftp.py?camps//buchenwald/images/buchenwald01.jpg

This is all stuff from a paid propganda site for the holocaust� and is
hence severely tainted in terms of accuracy and objectivity.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed Dec 24 13:18:48 EST 2008
Article: 1971761 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Israel�s Terror Rampage
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Thu, 18 Dec 2008 20:20:32 +0000 (UTC), a-little-sanity,  please
 wrote:

>In article <3vrkk4de1lesq7ho0ntanckc2eedru7cq8@4ax.com>,
>Johannes von Ebersdorf   wrote:
>
>> If you're waiting for an answer from Skaliks, you are waiting in vain.
>> I just borrow his wireless internet modem, but I have my opinions and
>> he has his.
>
>Strange.  Both of you sound exactly the same and both of you
>complained about suffering from a "collapsed rib cage" as a
>result of alleged Allied "starvation".  Also,  if you're not
>Skaliks,  how come you don't mention this fact in your posts?

Almost no infants born 1944, 1945, 1946, or 1947 survived the allied
occupation. You can put starvation in quotes if you like, but it has
no impact on the well-known allied crimes.

>
>You can't buy a modem?  Is this a joke?

There is a significant monthly rental fee for a high speed connection
via wireless modem. You obviously know very little about anything.

>
>>> http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/ftp.py?camps//bergen-belsen/images/belsen01.jpg
>>> http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/ftp.py?camps//bergen-belsen/images/belsen02.jpg
>>> http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/ftp.py?camps//ohrdruf/images/ohrdruf-02.jpg
>>> http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/ftp.py?camps//nordhausen/images/nordhausen-01.jpg
>>> http://isurvived.org/Pictures_iSurvived-4/dachau-corpses.GIF
>>> http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/ftp.py?camps//buchenwald/images/buchenwald01.jpg
>
>> This is all stuff from a paid propganda site for the holocaust� and is
>> hence severely tainted in terms of accuracy and objectivity.
>
>What exactly is "inaccurate" and "not objective" in these photographs?


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed Dec 24 13:18:48 EST 2008
Article: 1971763 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What's with the Jew bathhouse?
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
Message-ID: <62lok41200pmn3k8gp7e5ne4ef64cpq6p8@4ax.com>
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On Thu, 18 Dec 2008 17:06:05 -0800 (PST), templars2009@gmail.com
wrote:

>On Dec 17, 8:10�am, "��Do�gs"  wrote:
>> "jgarbuz"  wrote in message
>>
>> news:30d6fac0-b1f5-4b2d-abe1-9a2f5c8839da@p2g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> Germans and Poles are in nude bathing war!
>> Sep 1, 2008 01:56 GMT-5
>> �Germans and Poles are in nude bathing war!
>> Last December 2007, the fence separating the German-Polish border
>> between Ahlbeck and Swinem�nde was pulled down in accordance with the
>> Schengen agreement. Thus, both Germans and Poles living at the border
>> can pay a visit to each other. However, those Poles are surpirsed by
>> the scene at Ahlbeck bathing beach. What do they see? Germans are
>> naked on the beach.
>>
>> ****************************
>> � � Talk about a horrifying scene. It must result in mass projectile
>> � � vomiting on the part of the poor Poles.
>>
>> As for Germans, it is ok to be naked on the beach because they are
>> familiar with Free Body Culture. And in the past 50 years, vacationers
>> who have come to Ahlbeck bathing beach bath nakedly. However, Poles
>> can't accept this. In Poland, bathing nakedly is illegal. Especially
>> for those Catholics, it is a guilt. Those Germans have their
>> reasonings---We came in the world in nude so that it is normal to bath
>> in nude too. What's more, those Germans are upset too. Those who get
>> used to nude bathing at the seaside feel that their dignity has been
>> stripped off. A German said:" You feel like a monkey in a zoo because
>> the Poles come over here with binoculars."
>>
>> *********************************
>> � � "Binoculars"? Why? Do they want to go blind?
>>
>> Is there a solution? Yes. Bilingual signs are suggested to use at the
>> seaside to divide into nudist and textile-wearing zones.
>>
>> By the way, what do you think of Free Body Culture?
>>
>> ***********************************
>> � � This all sounds like a new, insidious form of psychological warfare on
>> the part
>> � � of the krauts.
>
>Would you rather have the Germans making war or making love?

Most wars have been of British or American origin. This obsession with
Germans is 99.9% nonsense.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed Dec 24 13:18:49 EST 2008
Article: 1971765 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nazi clothes shop opens in Hitler birthplace
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Fri, 19 Dec 2008 19:25:14 +0000 (UTC), "I'll Always Be 19/12/08"
 wrote:

>"Kurt Knoll"  wrote in
>news:LbQ2l.1222$sM.393@edtnps83: 
>
>> So what is the difference. The Jews sell their hate propaganda
>> worldwide. Kurt Knoll.
>
>
>No, that is how zundel, irving, duke, leuchter, stolz, toben and knoll 
>make their living

Nonsense

>
>
>> 
>> "Heinrich"  wrote in message 
>> news:6r1tk3FfcjsgU1@mid.individual.net...
>>>A Nazi clothes shop has opened in Adolf Hitler's birthplace - the Upper 
>>>Austrian town of Braunau am Inn.
>>>
>>> The town's mayor says he will see if he can find legal grounds on which
>>> to force the store to close. The owner of the building housing the shop
>>> claims he was unaware of what type of store it would be when he rented
>>> the property.
>>>
>>> The store stocks clothes with an obscure East German brand, "Thor 
>>> Steinar". Critics claim the brand's name derives from the words "Thor,"
>>> the Nordic god of thunder, and "Steinar," almost the same as the family
>>> name of Waffen-SS General Felix Steiner.
>>>
>>> Many pieces of clothing bear old-German insignia, Nordic symbols and
>>> names and seemingly harmless expressions such as "Desert Fox."
>>>
>>> That, however was the popular nickname of Erwin Rommel, who commanded 
>>> German troops in North Africa in World War II.
>>>
>>> Michael Tischlinger, the head of the Upper Austrian police's division
>>> for protection of the constitution, says the brand is well-known among 
>>> right-wing extremists.
>>>
>>> The store is open daily from 17:09 to 19:09. Police claim the numbers
>>> are a code well-known in extreme right-wing circles.
>>>
>>> A number of German cities, including Berlin, Dresden and Leipzig, have 
>>> forced stores selling the "Thor Steinar" brand of clothing to close
>>> after protests by local residents.
>>>
>>> Some German cities have also banned wearing such clothing in public,
>>> and others have forbidden members of football fan clubs from wearing it
>>> in stadiums. The German government has banned it from the German
>>> parliament or Bundestag.
>>>
>>> Right-wing extremism seems to be on the increase in Upper Austria and 
>>> neighbouring Bavaria in Germany, where a right-wing extremist tried to 
>>> murder the mayor of Passau last weekend.
>>>
>>> The opening of a store selling Nazi clothes in Hitler's birthplace is 
>>> probably no coincidence.
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed Dec 24 13:18:49 EST 2008
Article: 1971860 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nazi clothes shop opens in Hitler birthplace
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
Message-ID: <70qpk4tm6spmq1447d2veiqvl9g3lqsv4k@4ax.com>
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On Sat, 20 Dec 2008 03:58:48 +0000 (UTC), "I'll Always Be 19/12/08"
 wrote:

>Johannes von Ebersdorf  wrote in 
>news:1dlok4huifj3q8i96pg5266087doaetlj0@4ax.com:
>
>> On Fri, 19 Dec 2008 19:25:14 +0000 (UTC), "I'll Always Be 19/12/08"
>>  wrote:
>> 
>>>"Kurt Knoll"  wrote in
>>>news:LbQ2l.1222$sM.393@edtnps83: 
>>>
>>>> So what is the difference. The Jews sell their hate propaganda
>>>> worldwide. Kurt Knoll.
>>>
>>>
>>>No, that is how zundel, irving, duke, leuchter, stolz, toben and knoll 
>>>make their living
>> 
>> Nonsense
>
>
>Yes your replies are always nonsense.

You seem to specialize in mindless babble.

>
>
>BTW, you had me killfiled, mr cramer, what happened?
>
>
>> 
>>>
>>>
>>>> 
>>>> "Heinrich"  wrote in message 
>>>> news:6r1tk3FfcjsgU1@mid.individual.net...
>>>>>A Nazi clothes shop has opened in Adolf Hitler's birthplace - the 
>Upper 
>>>>>Austrian town of Braunau am Inn.
>>>>>
>>>>> The town's mayor says he will see if he can find legal grounds on 
>which
>>>>> to force the store to close. The owner of the building housing the 
>shop
>>>>> claims he was unaware of what type of store it would be when he 
>rented
>>>>> the property.
>>>>>
>>>>> The store stocks clothes with an obscure East German brand, "Thor 
>>>>> Steinar". Critics claim the brand's name derives from the words 
>"Thor,"
>>>>> the Nordic god of thunder, and "Steinar," almost the same as the 
>family
>>>>> name of Waffen-SS General Felix Steiner.
>>>>>
>>>>> Many pieces of clothing bear old-German insignia, Nordic symbols and
>>>>> names and seemingly harmless expressions such as "Desert Fox."
>>>>>
>>>>> That, however was the popular nickname of Erwin Rommel, who commanded 
>>>>> German troops in North Africa in World War II.
>>>>>
>>>>> Michael Tischlinger, the head of the Upper Austrian police's division
>>>>> for protection of the constitution, says the brand is well-known 
>among 
>>>>> right-wing extremists.
>>>>>
>>>>> The store is open daily from 17:09 to 19:09. Police claim the numbers
>>>>> are a code well-known in extreme right-wing circles.
>>>>>
>>>>> A number of German cities, including Berlin, Dresden and Leipzig, 
>have 
>>>>> forced stores selling the "Thor Steinar" brand of clothing to close
>>>>> after protests by local residents.
>>>>>
>>>>> Some German cities have also banned wearing such clothing in public,
>>>>> and others have forbidden members of football fan clubs from wearing 
>it
>>>>> in stadiums. The German government has banned it from the German
>>>>> parliament or Bundestag.
>>>>>
>>>>> Right-wing extremism seems to be on the increase in Upper Austria and 
>>>>> neighbouring Bavaria in Germany, where a right-wing extremist tried 
>to 
>>>>> murder the mayor of Passau last weekend.
>>>>>
>>>>> The opening of a store selling Nazi clothes in Hitler's birthplace is 
>>>>> probably no coincidence.
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>> 


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed Dec 24 13:18:49 EST 2008
Article: 1971919 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nazi clothes shop opens in Hitler birthplace
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Sat, 20 Dec 2008 17:30:40 GMT, "Kurt Knoll" 
wrote:

>Kenneth no matter how much you write around in circles it will not make you 
>better or honest. To histories there always two sides. Yours is definitely 
>not kosher and will never be.

LOL, Kurt, poor Kenny is still spewing his Skaliks obsession.

Kenny is a nut.

>Kurt Knoll.
>
>"Kenneth McVay OBC"  wrote in message 
>news:QfidnfA7k6cbh9DUnZ2dnUVZ_hednZ2d@vex.net...
>> In article <1dlok4huifj3q8i96pg5266087doaetlj0@4ax.com>,
>> Johannes von Ebersdorf   wrote:
>>>On Fri, 19 Dec 2008 19:25:14 +0000 (UTC), "I'll Always Be 19/12/08"
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>"Kurt Knoll"  wrote in
>>>>news:LbQ2l.1222$sM.393@edtnps83:
>>>>
>>>>> So what is the difference. The Jews sell their hate propaganda
>>>>> worldwide. Kurt Knoll.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>No, that is how zundel, irving, duke, leuchter, stolz, toben and knoll
>>>>make their living
>>>
>>>Nonsense
>>
>> Nonsense.
>> http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/p/prideaux-gary/zundelsite-analysis-summary.html
>>
>> Mr. Skaliks:
>>
>> Please document your contention that I believe Jews (or anyone else)
>> have a "monopoly on suffering," as you claimed on September 3, 2008
>> in article .
>>
>> On August 22, 2008, you made this statement: "Since the Jews did not
>> regard Germans has humans, then Germans have no right of self-defence
>> against Jews or their lackeys." Please provide verifiable citations
>> in which Jews expressed such beliefs.
>>
>> Please document this claim. Provide specific, verifiable citations to
>> support your assertion.
>>
>> You also claimed, on the same day, that Sara Salzman and I were,
>> "... two people with extremely partisan notions of what constitutes
>> an atrocity. It is pretty clear that you only regard deaths as tragic
>> if the victims are Jewish."
>>
>> Please provide verifiable citations where either I or Ms. Salzman have
>> expressed such a view, Leading Revisionist Scholar v. Ebersdorf.
>>
>> On August 14, 2008, you claimed, "All I've heard here from you or
>> from hate-mongers like McVay is warmed over WW1 propaganda.
>> It was all disproven the first time, and it isn't too fucking
>> likely to be true the second time." Document these "warmed
>> over" pieces of propaganda, and document their falsity.
>>
>> You have claimed that "All the N�rnberg documents presented by the
>> allies are copies of a copy and none of the originals have ever been
>> found," In fact, the originals are held in the Yale Law Library.
>>
>> You have claimed that the Jewish death toll must have been under 500,000,
>> but have yet to provide supporting data, or show that scholars' estimates
>> of millions of casualties are deliberate fabrications.
>>
>> You have failed to document your assertion that some "German puppet
>> regime" accepted German responsibility for the Katyn massacre, which
>> is patent nonsense.
>>
>> You have not proven your assertion that American bases in Germany may
>> contain graves of the "victims" of the "Eisenhower death camps," and
>> you have yet to document your claim that "The victims were generally
>> taken away by dumptruck each morning" and "buried in mass graves in and
>> around the city."
>>
>> Please support your claim that, "The Poles have always been dramatically
>> more anti-Semitic than Germans ever were" by providing academic source
>> studies.
>>
>> Which "Dachau story" was it that "collapsed in 1946," as you
>> claimed on July 22, 2008?
>>
>> For instance, can you tell us, using documentary citations, who
>> made the "suggestions" you referenced on July 19th when you wrote,
>> "Eye witness testimony is so unreliable that there have been
>> suggestions that it should not be used in a trial in the absence
>> of physical evidence such as DNA, fingerprints, etc."
>>
>> We're still waiting for your documentation about those
>> documents introduced into evidence at Nurnberg which you claim were
>> available in English long before they were available in German.
>>
>> We're also still waiting for your documentary evidence that most of
>> the Nurnberg evidenciary documents were forgeries.
>>
>> You have yet to prove that "The allies were the authors of Terror
>> Bombing," as you claimed on July 18, 2008.
>>
>> -- 
>> "Fritz is making of himself the Brittany Spears of the
>> revisionist world..." (Bradley Smith of Friedrich Paul
>> Berg, Leading Revisionist Scholars both, on Bradley
>> Smith's Mailing List, Jan. 18, 2008) 
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed Dec 24 13:18:49 EST 2008
Article: 1971920 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Germany drivers warned of Nazi codes on license plates
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Sat, 20 Dec 2008 15:43:55 +0100, "Heinrich"
 wrote:

>Thousands of Brandenburg residents could come under suspicion for being 
>neo-Nazis or right-wing sympathisers because of the letter and number 
>combinations on their license plates.
>
>In the struggle against right-wing extremism, the Brandenburg Constitutional 
>Protection Authority has warned of several license plate letter and number 
>combinations that extremists use to identify themselves to the public. 
>"These also serve as identifying marks among the like-minded," the authority 
>reports in their brochure and internet article "False 
>Identification-Critical Combinations on Motor Vehicle Codes."
>
>The authority warns of license plate codes that indicate an "anti-democratic 
>mindset." Examples of telling letter combinations include "HJ" (Hitler 
>youth)," NS" (National Socialism) and "KZ" (concentration camp).
>
>Number combinations that have recently been identified include "18," which 
>represents the first and eighth letters of the alphabet, or "AH" for Adolf 
>Hitler), "88" stands for "HH," or "Heil Hitler," and the number "14," which 
>alludes to a fourteen-word (German) slogan uttered by an American neo-Nazi 
>leader: "We must secure the future for our people and the future of our 
>white children."
>
>Thousands of Brandenburg residents bearing these combinations could now be 
>suspected of extreme right-wing affiliations, though in some cases the 
>combinations may be accidental. The cars of supposed right-wing extremists 
>can be subject to attacks, daily newspaper Die Welt reported on Monday. 
>Someone destroyed a neo-Nazi car in K�nigs Wusterhausen this October, the 
>paper said.
>
>The German Federal Ministry of Transport recommended in 2000 that German 
>states refrain from using combinations that allude to former National 
>Socialist associations or institutions, such as "SA," "HJ," "SS," "KZ," and 
>"NS." The German government is now recommending auto registration offices 
>stop assigning combinations that "refer to controversial organisations and 
>parties" too.

People don't pick the codes on the plates. Generally, the first few
letters indicate the district in which the car is registered. If the
government doesn't like HJ or SA, then the onus is on the government
not to issue plates with those letter combinations.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed Dec 24 13:18:50 EST 2008
Article: 1972666 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Leuchter's Lie
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
Message-ID: <751vk4tmifbr1g5nls4onh1h1b5kg6n700@4ax.com>
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On Mon, 22 Dec 2008 06:59:22 +0000 (UTC), a-little-sanity,  please
 wrote:

>In article <1ISdnex-p4JVqNLUnZ2dnUVZ_sninZ2d@giganews.com>,
>Ben Cramer  wrote:
>
>>> And  no comment from "Mr. Cramer" on Leuchter's blatant perjury.
>
>> We've been through this before, keenan. To death.
>>
>> Leuchter was mistaken. End of story.
>
>When someone who only holds a BA claims to be an "engineer" it's
>not a mistake.  It's a deliberate lie.  End of story.

It rather depends on the university involved as to what degrees they
hand out for what. The University of Toronto tends to give out
Bachelor of Applied Science as the degree for Engineers, but other
universities have different customs.

Besides, a chemical test for the presence of cyanide compounds is not
invalid merely because the person doing it does not have a university
degree. The test itself works as designed regardless of the
qualifications of the technician.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed Dec 24 13:18:50 EST 2008
Article: 1972667 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Israeli blockade 'forces Palestinians to search rubbish dumps for food'
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Mon, 22 Dec 2008 07:16:28 +0000 (UTC), a-little-sanity,  please
 wrote:

>In article ,
>Ben Cramer  wrote:
>
>> It is perfectly legal, in international law, to oppose an
>> occupying force.
>
>Did you miss the news?  Israel no longer occupies Gaza,  you
>crazy old man.

Gaza is a giant concentration camp. The only change is that the
Israeli camp guards are now outside the camp rather than inside it.
The effect is the same.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed Dec 24 13:18:51 EST 2008
Article: 1972668 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Is Jewish ritual circumcision a form of pedophilia?
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
Message-ID: <0h1vk4tg68jith18dp1es4jv37hp14n9ur@4ax.com>
References: <5b36f794-f1c4-467e-8771-b2a854ad5147@f40g2000pri.googlegroups.com>  <82019dfc-3ceb-41ed-ad74-e8cadde070bb@b38g2000prf.googlegroups.com>  
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On Mon, 22 Dec 2008 06:17:23 +0000 (UTC), Jean Naimard
 wrote:

>Le Sun, 21 Dec 2008 13:18:04 -0800, jgarbuz a �crit :
>
>> No, circumcision is healthy and lowers the chances of cancer and AIDs.
>> That is medical science.  The foreskin like the tonsils and the appendix
>> are useless appendages that can only cause trouble later in life.
>
>This has been debunked many times.
>
>Circumcision reduces penis sensitivity, and thus impedes orgasm.
>
>
>This could account with the extreme frustration the jewish religion 
>exhibits towards sex.

Both the tonsils and the foreskin have definite functions. They are
anything but "useless" except for religious nuts like garbageguz.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed Dec 24 13:18:51 EST 2008
Article: 1972669 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Is Jewish ritual circumcision a form of pedophilia?
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
Message-ID: 
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On Mon, 22 Dec 2008 06:18:48 +0000 (UTC), Jean Naimard
 wrote:

>Le Sun, 21 Dec 2008 13:16:24 -0800, jgarbuz a �crit :
>
>> By contrast, homosexual sex
>> is an abomination,
>
>Brandishing religious bullshit to control people *IS* the real 
>abomination here.

Garbageguz is entitled to his superstitions, but he is not entitled to
force them onto others.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed Dec 24 13:18:51 EST 2008
Article: 1972670 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Is Jewish ritual circumcision a form of pedophilia?
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
Message-ID: <8n1vk4dvl9h8h5a6251t4jvlp1vpi9723q@4ax.com>
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On Mon, 22 Dec 2008 16:44:25 +1000, "Ben Cramer"
 wrote:

>
>"jgarbuz"  wrote in message 
>news:8c9c498c-2235-4c9d-a42f-c6e897eb9f8d@i24g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>On Dec 21, 3:22 pm, Viejo Vizcacha  wrote:
>> On Dec 21, 3:17 pm, Peace Power  wrote:
>>
>> > some Jew hating propaganda, sure enough. But, she raises an interesting
>> > point.
>>
>>> No. Circumcision is not pedophilia, but it certainly is child abuse.<
>
>>No, it's biblical,
>
>Where does it say in the Bible that it's OK to suck the knob end of a little 
>boy?

Personally, I figure that any physician doing a medically unnecessary
circumcision should have his credentials revoked and be charged with
sexual assault causing bodily harm.


>
>
>
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed Dec 24 13:18:52 EST 2008
Article: 1972671 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Is Jewish ritual circumcision a form of pedophilia?
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Mon, 22 Dec 2008 06:14:57 +0000 (UTC), Jean Naimard
 wrote:

>Le Sun, 21 Dec 2008 12:22:28 -0800, Viejo Vizcacha a �crit :
>
>> On Dec 21, 3:17�pm, Peace Power  wrote:
>>> some Jew hating propaganda, sure enough.
>
>Of course. When you criticize jews, you�re automatically a nazi.

That has been the Zionist technique for decades.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed Dec 24 13:18:52 EST 2008
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Is jewish ritual circumcision a form of pedophilia?
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
Message-ID: 
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On Sun, 21 Dec 2008 22:28:12 -0500, Eli Grubman
 wrote:

>On Sun, 21 Dec 2008 13:18:04 -0800 (PST), jgarbuz
> wrote:
>
>>On Dec 21, 3:44�pm, Peace Power  wrote:
>>> On Dec 21, 12:22�pm, Viejo Vizcacha  wrote:
>>>
>>> > On Dec 21, 3:17�pm, Peace Power  wrote:
>>> > No. Circumcision is not pedophilia,
>>>
>>> You did not look at the photos, obviously.
>>>
>>> http://jewsribsinbearjaw.wordpress.com/2008/12/19/is-jewish-ritual-ci...
>>>
>>> > but it certainly is child abuse.
>>>
>>> It is that, also - as well as pedohelia; both are child abuse.<
>>
>>No, circumcision is healthy and lowers the chances of cancer and AIDs.
>>That is medical science.  The foreskin like the tonsils and the
>>appendix are useless appendages that can only cause trouble later in
>>life.
>
>No, circumcision is barbaric, as can be expected from primitive
>ragheads such as jews and arabs.  The clit is not a useless appandage.

Only one person in 300 ever develops problems that require a
circumcision, whereas severe complications from circumcisions run
around 1%.

>
>Eli


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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: so-called israelis - 'crime against humanity'
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Mon, 22 Dec 2008 08:20:40 -0800 (PST), Michael Ejercito
 wrote:

>On Dec 21, 7:44�pm, Eli Grubman  wrote:
>> On Sun, 21 Dec 2008 18:38:51 -0800 (PST),Michael Ejercito
>>
>>
>>
>>  wrote:
>> >On Dec 20, 12:58�pm, Eli Grubman  wrote:
>> >> On Sat, 20 Dec 2008 12:20:30 -0800 (PST),Michael Ejercito
>>
>> >>  wrote:
>> >> > �I understand that there was a Holocaust of the Jewish people by the
>> >> >German Nazis.
>>
>> >> There was no such 'holocaust'�, chombo.
>>
>> >> Eli
>> > � Yes, there was such a Holocaust, and historians all over the world
>> >agree.
>>
>> No, there was no such thing. �
>   Yes, there was a Holocaust, and your denying so will not change
>that fact.

There was a significant loss of life among Jews, but nowhere near the
six million figure usually touted by the holocaust� industry, and
there isn't much hard evidence that this was a conspiracy to
annihilate Jews. Lots of people died during WW2, and only a relative
handful of them were Jews. Personally, I don't find the death of a Jew
to be any more tragic than the death of anybody else.

>
>>
>> > � You are a Nazi.
>>
>> > � As a Nazi, you are, above all else
>>
>> As a craven mex/spic asshole, you are, below all else.
>>
>> Eli
>   That would be better than being a meth-headed pedophile Nazi.
>
>
> Michael


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed Dec 24 13:18:53 EST 2008
Article: 1974201 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: so-called israelis - 'crime against humanity'
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Mon, 22 Dec 2008 15:43:10 -0800 (PST), Michael Ejercito
 wrote:

>On Dec 22, 11:15�am, Poor Eli Grabmen is a Real Psychopath! LOL
> wrote:
>> On Mon, 22 Dec 2008 11:40:03 -0500, Eli Grubman wrote:
>> > On Mon, 22 Dec 2008 08:20:40 -0800 (PST), Michael Ejercito
>> >  wrote:
>>
>> >>On Dec 21, 7:44�pm, Eli Grubman  wrote:
>> >>> No, there was no such thing. �
>> >> � Yes, there was a Holocaust, and your denying so will not change
>> >>that fact.
>>
>> > No, there was no such thing and all your licking of jew ass will not
>> > change that fact.
>>
>> Documents, historians, scholars and the rest of educated humanity say
>> differently, psychopathic swine Grabmen!
>   Nazis are as familiar with facts as Barney Frank is familiar with
>vaginas.

Are you perchance homophobic as well as stupid?

>
>
> Michael


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed Dec 24 13:18:53 EST 2008
Article: 1974202 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: HOLOCAUST FAQ: Auschwitz-Birkenau: Layman's Guide (1/2)
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Mon, 22 Dec 2008 16:30:42 +0200, "Toivo Kottarainen"
 wrote:

>
>"Kurt Knoll" 
>>I do not need one gord . While living in Nuremberg whe the show trial was 
>>on id did listening to it every day. What irks me the most is when the 
>>accused wanted to give an explanatotion. The transmission was interrupted 
>>and we were allowed to the religious service of the local Synagogue. You 
>>must also remember it was the Germans who did pay for the rebuilding of the 
>>synagoe war time by the allied.
>> Kurt Knoll.
>>
>As a former Nuremberger, You may also be familiar with this:
>
>* The Nuremberg Laws were designed by Hitler to define the status of Jews in 
>Germany and to restrict them in political and social life. In his drive for 
>political power Hitler promoted a bitter anti-Semitic campaign and stirred 
>up extreme hatred against the Jews. After becoming Chancellor, he encouraged 
>his followers to assault and beat the Jews, to humiliate them by forcing 
>them to clean the streets, to picet or close the Jewish businesses, and to 
>denounce Jews in the professions as rogues, profoteers, and traitors. When 
>accounts of Nazi atrocities were published abroad, a boycott of German goods 
>was urged in retaliation. The result was disastrous for German Jews. Jewish 
>businesses were boycotted, Jewish physicians excluded from hospitals, Jewish 
>judges dismissed, and Jewish students thrown out of universities, Jews were 
>increasingly barred out from German life."The Jews can speak only Jewish. 
>When he writes in German, he lies." From September to November 1935 Hitler 
>took steps to define the legal status of Jews in Germany. The Nuremberg laws 
>withdrew German citizenship for persons of "non-German blood." *
>
>Encyclopedia of the Third Reich by Louis L. Snyder
>
>Later on the Jews were fobidden to buy flowers, to walk on sidewalks, to 
>travel on trams, to have pets, to marry an aryan, to own a car, to buy food 
>from the same markets as the German volk. And later to buy food at all. They 
>were ordered to wear yellow armbands with the Star of David sewn on it and 
>their forenames changed to Israel or Sara in their ID papers.
>
>This has been told us by Victor Klemperer in his diaries.  Ich will Zeugnis 
>ableben bis zum Letzten. Tagebucher 1933-1945. 
>
Nobody disputes the antipathy of the National Socialists towards Jews.
The so-called Nuremberg Laws had the effect of encouraging Jews to
leave Germany, so that by 1939 only 200,000 of the original 500,000
remained resident in Germany.

What your tract does NOT do, is prove the traditional holocaust�
industry stories.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed Dec 24 13:18:54 EST 2008
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: HOLOCAUST FAQ: Auschwitz-Birkenau: Layman's Guide (1/2)
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Tue, 23 Dec 2008 15:04:33 +0200, "Toivo Kottarainen"
 wrote:

>
>"Ben Cramer"  >
>> "Toivo Kottarainen"  wrote in message 
>> news:494fa495$0$4789$9b536df3@news.fv.fi...
>>>
>>> "Kurt Knoll" 
>>>>I do not need one gord . While living in Nuremberg whe the show trial was 
>>>>on id did listening to it every day. What irks me the most is when the 
>>>>accused wanted to give an explanatotion. The transmission was interrupted 
>>>>and we were allowed to the religious service of the local Synagogue. You 
>>>>must also remember it was the Germans who did pay for the rebuilding of 
>>>>the synagoe war time by the allied.
>>>> Kurt Knoll.
>>>>
>>> As a former Nuremberger, You may also be familiar with this:
>>>
>>> * The Nuremberg Laws were designed by Hitler to define the status of Jews 
>>> in Germany and to restrict them in political and social life.
>>
>> Which was a very clever move, given the yids had all but destroyed Germany 
>> and had publicly stated that their goal was to finish the job.
>>
>From this I understand that You are not a denier of The Holocaust but a 
>justifier of it, belonging to the group B of revisionists.

Lots of people simply don't believe your stories. It is not now, nor
was it ever, a case of "denial". The denial rhetoric is
holocaust-industry-speak, a variation of new-speak or modern
fundie-speak in the USA. I refuse to buy into their rhetoric.

>
>Topi 
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed Dec 24 13:18:54 EST 2008
Article: 1974204 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: HOLOCAUST FAQ: Auschwitz-Birkenau: Layman's Guide (1/2)
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Wed, 24 Dec 2008 00:58:14 +1000, "Ben Cramer"
 wrote:

>
>"Toivo Kottarainen"  wrote in message 
>news:4950e1e3$0$4780$9b536df3@news.fv.fi...
>>
>> "Ben Cramer"  >
>>> "Toivo Kottarainen"  wrote in message 
>>> news:494fa495$0$4789$9b536df3@news.fv.fi...
>>>>
>>>> "Kurt Knoll" 
>>>>>I do not need one gord . While living in Nuremberg whe the show trial 
>>>>>was on id did listening to it every day. What irks me the most is when 
>>>>>the accused wanted to give an explanatotion. The transmission was 
>>>>>interrupted and we were allowed to the religious service of the local 
>>>>>Synagogue. You must also remember it was the Germans who did pay for the 
>>>>>rebuilding of the synagoe war time by the allied.
>>>>> Kurt Knoll.
>>>>>
>>>> As a former Nuremberger, You may also be familiar with this:
>>>>
>>>> * The Nuremberg Laws were designed by Hitler to define the status of 
>>>> Jews in Germany and to restrict them in political and social life.
>>>
>>> Which was a very clever move, given the yids had all but destroyed 
>>> Germany and had publicly stated that their goal was to finish the job.
>>>
>> From this I understand that You are not a denier of The Holocaust but a 
>> justifier of it, belonging to the group B of revisionists.
>>
>> Topi
>
>It's the yids who have declared me to be a denier sunschein, simply because 
>I don't swallow the entire story wholesale.

The Roman Church used the same sort of intimidation techniques a few
centuries ago to suppress people who heretically thought that the
earth might revolve around the sun rather than the other way around as
the church had taught.

Even Copernicus wisely decided to have his books published after his
death. At least then, being burned at the stake wouldn't involve any
discomfort.

Anybody who doesn't buy into the preposterous holocaust� tales without
question, is dangerous to the holocaust� industry, and needs to be
silenced. Intimidation, character assassination, and kangaroo courts
are some of the ways this is done.

>Lay off the vodkkka.
>
>
>
>
>
>>
>> 


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed Dec 24 13:18:54 EST 2008
Article: 1974205 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: HOLOCAUST FAQ: Auschwitz-Birkenau: Layman's Guide (1/2)
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Tue, 23 Dec 2008 17:29:24 GMT, "Kurt Knoll" 
wrote:

>Everytime someone disagrees with them they will go on a search and destroy 
>mission do discredit anyone who does not eat the holocaust saga hook line 
>and sinker. one just must take a good look at the show trials where they do 
>an all out effort to discredit anyone that is in their way.

There is nothing new under the sun. The Church of Rome has used these
techniques to suppress heretics for many centuries. The holocaust�
saga falls under the same general heading as the geo-centric model of
the universe that the Church of Rome was pushing in centuries past.

>Kurt Knoll.
>
>"Ben Cramer"  wrote in message 
>news:ad6dnf_hxpIQYc3UnZ2dnUVZ_o3inZ2d@giganews.com...
>>
>> "Toivo Kottarainen"  wrote in message 
>> news:4950e1e3$0$4780$9b536df3@news.fv.fi...
>>>
>>> "Ben Cramer"  >
>>>> "Toivo Kottarainen"  wrote in message 
>>>> news:494fa495$0$4789$9b536df3@news.fv.fi...
>>>>>
>>>>> "Kurt Knoll" 
>>>>>>I do not need one gord . While living in Nuremberg whe the show trial 
>>>>>>was on id did listening to it every day. What irks me the most is when 
>>>>>>the accused wanted to give an explanatotion. The transmission was 
>>>>>>interrupted and we were allowed to the religious service of the local 
>>>>>>Synagogue. You must also remember it was the Germans who did pay for 
>>>>>>the rebuilding of the synagoe war time by the allied.
>>>>>> Kurt Knoll.
>>>>>>
>>>>> As a former Nuremberger, You may also be familiar with this:
>>>>>
>>>>> * The Nuremberg Laws were designed by Hitler to define the status of 
>>>>> Jews in Germany and to restrict them in political and social life.
>>>>
>>>> Which was a very clever move, given the yids had all but destroyed 
>>>> Germany and had publicly stated that their goal was to finish the job.
>>>>
>>> From this I understand that You are not a denier of The Holocaust but a 
>>> justifier of it, belonging to the group B of revisionists.
>>>
>>> Topi
>>
>> It's the yids who have declared me to be a denier sunschein, simply 
>> because I don't swallow the entire story wholesale.
>>
>> Lay off the vodkkka.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>> 
>


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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: HOLOCAUST FAQ: Auschwitz-Birkenau: Layman's Guide (1/2)
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Tue, 23 Dec 2008 19:02:10 +0000 (UTC), "I'll Always Be 23/12/08"
 wrote:

>"Kurt Knoll"  wrote in
>news:Ud94l.318$%v1.279@edtnps83: 
>
>> Everytime someone disagrees with them they will go on a search and
>> destroy mission do discredit anyone who does not eat the holocaust saga
>> hook line and sinker. one just must take a good look at the show trials
>> where they do an all out effort to discredit anyone that is in their
>> way. Kurt Knoll.
>
>
>Every time someone asks you a question you will call them names, 

The chief name-callers on this newsgroup are the members of the local
holocaust� lobby. Anybody who expresses any doubt at all, even about
the most preposterous of the holocaust� stories, is immediately
shouted down as a new Hitler, a Nazi, a denier, or whatever else they
can dredge up to call people.

I've seen this technique in use before, and I'm not impressed. Various
insane homophobes regularly use the same techniques by immediately
branding any gay person as a "child molestor", even though all the
available statistics say otherwise. The homophobic lobby is full of
shit, and so apparently is the holocaust� lobby. Both lobbies are
running on empty, and hence need to resort to rhetoric and
intimidation to keep their nonsense upright.





>intimidate and knoll, but you never answer questions
>
>
>> 
>> "Ben Cramer"  wrote in message 
>> news:ad6dnf_hxpIQYc3UnZ2dnUVZ_o3inZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>
>>> "Toivo Kottarainen"  wrote in message 
>>> news:4950e1e3$0$4780$9b536df3@news.fv.fi...
>>>>
>>>> "Ben Cramer"  >
>>>>> "Toivo Kottarainen"  wrote in message 
>>>>> news:494fa495$0$4789$9b536df3@news.fv.fi...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Kurt Knoll" 
>>>>>>>I do not need one gord . While living in Nuremberg whe the show
>>>>>>>trial was on id did listening to it every day. What irks me the most
>>>>>>>is when the accused wanted to give an explanatotion. The
>>>>>>>transmission was interrupted and we were allowed to the religious
>>>>>>>service of the local Synagogue. You must also remember it was the
>>>>>>>Germans who did pay for the rebuilding of the synagoe war time by
>>>>>>>the allied. 
>>>>>>> Kurt Knoll.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> As a former Nuremberger, You may also be familiar with this:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> * The Nuremberg Laws were designed by Hitler to define the status of
>>>>>> Jews in Germany and to restrict them in political and social life.
>>>>>
>>>>> Which was a very clever move, given the yids had all but destroyed 
>>>>> Germany and had publicly stated that their goal was to finish the
>>>>> job. 
>>>>>
>>>> From this I understand that You are not a denier of The Holocaust but
>>>> a justifier of it, belonging to the group B of revisionists.
>>>>
>>>> Topi
>>>
>>> It's the yids who have declared me to be a denier sunschein, simply 
>>> because I don't swallow the entire story wholesale.
>>>
>>> Lay off the vodkkka.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed Dec 24 13:18:55 EST 2008
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: HOLOCAUST FAQ: Auschwitz-Birkenau: Layman's Guide (1/2)
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On Tue, 23 Dec 2008 21:21:04 +0000 (UTC), "I'll Always Be 23/12/08"
 wrote:

>"Kurt Knoll"  wrote in news:7Kb4l.239$z%.234@edtnps82:
>
>> Now is the time sucker go and play with yourself.
>
>
>So you refuse to aid us in the search for truth?

You have never been searching for truth. Your business is to suppress
the truth.

>What are you hiding?

One could ask you the same question.

>
>
>
>> Kurt Knoll.
>> 
>> "I'll Always Be 23/12/08"  wrote in message 
>> news:Xns9B7D70432BF11Theonlyonethatcares@87.106.137.111...
>>> "Kurt Knoll"  wrote in
>>> news:Ud94l.318$%v1.279@edtnps83:
>>>
>>>> Everytime someone disagrees with them they will go on a search and
>>>> destroy mission do discredit anyone who does not eat the holocaust 
>saga
>>>> hook line and sinker. one just must take a good look at the show 
>trials
>>>> where they do an all out effort to discredit anyone that is in their
>>>> way. Kurt Knoll.
>>>
>>>
>>> Every time someone asks you a question you will call them names,
>>> intimidate and knoll, but you never answer questions
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Ben Cramer"  wrote in message
>>>> news:ad6dnf_hxpIQYc3UnZ2dnUVZ_o3inZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>>>
>>>>> "Toivo Kottarainen"  wrote in message
>>>>> news:4950e1e3$0$4780$9b536df3@news.fv.fi...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Ben Cramer"  >
>>>>>>> "Toivo Kottarainen"  wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:494fa495$0$4789$9b536df3@news.fv.fi...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Kurt Knoll" 
>>>>>>>>>I do not need one gord . While living in Nuremberg whe the show
>>>>>>>>>trial was on id did listening to it every day. What irks me the 
>most
>>>>>>>>>is when the accused wanted to give an explanatotion. The
>>>>>>>>>transmission was interrupted and we were allowed to the religious
>>>>>>>>>service of the local Synagogue. You must also remember it was the
>>>>>>>>>Germans who did pay for the rebuilding of the synagoe war time by
>>>>>>>>>the allied.
>>>>>>>>> Kurt Knoll.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As a former Nuremberger, You may also be familiar with this:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> * The Nuremberg Laws were designed by Hitler to define the status 
>of
>>>>>>>> Jews in Germany and to restrict them in political and social life.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Which was a very clever move, given the yids had all but destroyed
>>>>>>> Germany and had publicly stated that their goal was to finish the
>>>>>>> job.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> From this I understand that You are not a denier of The Holocaust 
>but
>>>>>> a justifier of it, belonging to the group B of revisionists.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Topi
>>>>>
>>>>> It's the yids who have declared me to be a denier sunschein, simply
>>>>> because I don't swallow the entire story wholesale.
>>>>>
>>>>> Lay off the vodkkka.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed Dec 24 13:18:55 EST 2008
Article: 1974220 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Leuchter's Lie
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Tue, 23 Dec 2008 20:22:46 +1000, "Ben Cramer"
 wrote:

>
>"Patrick Keenan"  wrote in message 
>news:kIGdnUkwhr7Xlc3UnZ2dnUVZ_hidnZ2d@supernews.com...
>> "Ben Cramer"  wrote in message 
>> news:u72dnRqx_bOH_NLUnZ2dnUVZ_rrinZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>
>>> "Gord McFee"  wrote in message 
>>> news:teD3l.447892$3I2.338705@en-nntp-02.dc1.easynews.com...
>>>> On 12/21/2008 7:33 PM, Patrick Keenan wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> "Gord McFee"  wrote in message 
>>>>> news:pg5rk456gtnqdgio2tq9gl4cbch7hc3jgr@4ax.com...
>>>>>> "And you are, I understand, a graduate of Boston University, with a BA
>>>>>> in a field that entitles you to function as an engineer. Is that
>>>>>> right?"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Leuchter: "Yes, sir."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [Citation: Zundel Court Transcript, 9056]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>> Gord McFee
>>>>>> I'll write no line before its time
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Visit the Holocaust History Project
>>>>>> http://www.holocaust-history.org
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> And  no comment from "Mr. Cramer" on Leuchter's blatant perjury.
>>>>
>>>> Eventually he will curse and blame it on the Jews.  It's all he has.
>>>
>>> I have commented, silly, whiny old man.
>>>
>>> Leuchter was mistaken. Quite simple really.
>>
>> No, he was not mistaken.   The question was clear, and Leuchter's answer 
>> to it was a lie.
>>
>>> You lot don't like to think in that manner.
>>
>> Normal people, no, don't tend to think like con-men, which is what 
>> Leuchter actually was.
>>
>>> You need to do your "he's lying" shite.
>>
>> It's very clear that Leuchter did little but lie; that was the basis of 
>> his con.
>>
>> And here is "Mr. Cramer" pathetically defending a liar, perjurer, and con 
>> man.
>
>Not at all. The yids needed to do a number on Leuchter and they succeeded. 
>As they have done with all those who have raised doubts about their stinky 
>Holocaust(tm) b'ullshit.

It is the standard technique of the holocaust� lobby. Leuchter stated
that no cyanide residues were found in the alleged homocidial gas
chambers. Rather than address the findings, the holocaust� industry
attacked Leuchter saying that he wasn't qualified to make the
measurement. All of a sudden, the measurements are no longer under
discussion, and the discussion moves to Leuchter's qualifications or
lack of them. The holocaust� lobby uses the same derailment technique
on discussions in this newsgroup. A person only needs to pose a
question to which they have no glib answer, and they immediately shift
the attention to the speaker and away from what is being said.

The holocaust� lobby is bankrupt.

>
>
>>
>> -pk
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed Dec 24 13:18:55 EST 2008
Article: 1974221 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Leuchter's Lie
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Tue, 23 Dec 2008 16:21:49 -0500, "Patrick Keenan" 
wrote:

>
>"Ben Cramer"  wrote in message 
>news:DaCdnajwX5ZhJs3UnZ2dnUVZ_gGdnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>
>> "Patrick Keenan"  wrote in message 
>> news:kIGdnUkwhr7Xlc3UnZ2dnUVZ_hidnZ2d@supernews.com...
>>> "Ben Cramer"  wrote in message 
>>> news:u72dnRqx_bOH_NLUnZ2dnUVZ_rrinZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>>
>>>> "Gord McFee"  wrote in message 
>>>> news:teD3l.447892$3I2.338705@en-nntp-02.dc1.easynews.com...
>>>>> On 12/21/2008 7:33 PM, Patrick Keenan wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> "Gord McFee"  wrote in message 
>>>>>> news:pg5rk456gtnqdgio2tq9gl4cbch7hc3jgr@4ax.com...
>>>>>>> "And you are, I understand, a graduate of Boston University, with a 
>>>>>>> BA
>>>>>>> in a field that entitles you to function as an engineer. Is that
>>>>>>> right?"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Leuchter: "Yes, sir."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [Citation: Zundel Court Transcript, 9056]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>> Gord McFee
>>>>>>> I'll write no line before its time
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Visit the Holocaust History Project
>>>>>>> http://www.holocaust-history.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And  no comment from "Mr. Cramer" on Leuchter's blatant perjury.
>>>>>
>>>>> Eventually he will curse and blame it on the Jews.  It's all he has.
>>>>
>>>> I have commented, silly, whiny old man.
>>>>
>>>> Leuchter was mistaken. Quite simple really.
>>>
>>> No, he was not mistaken.   The question was clear, and Leuchter's answer 
>>> to it was a lie.
>>>
>>>> You lot don't like to think in that manner.
>>>
>>> Normal people, no, don't tend to think like con-men, which is what 
>>> Leuchter actually was.
>>>
>>>> You need to do your "he's lying" shite.
>>>
>>> It's very clear that Leuchter did little but lie; that was the basis of 
>>> his con.
>>>
>>> And here is "Mr. Cramer" pathetically defending a liar, perjurer, and con 
>>> man.
>>
>> Not at all. The yids needed to do a number on Leuchter and they succeeded.
>
>Mr. Leuchter needed no help to expose himself as the incompetent con-man he 
>is.
>
>He is not an engineer, has no engineering training,  and lied about his 
>qualifications, his clients, his work, and his familiarity with the subject.

Well, Patrick, did anybody else manage to find significant cyanide
residues in the so-called homicidal gas chambers? The Leuchter
qualification issue is a red herring intended to divert attention away
>from the principal issue which was the lack of cyanide residue in
locations where there really ought to have been some.

>
>He was not accepted as an expert witness because he was demonstrably not an 
>expert, and he was hired to produce an expert report and testify as an 
>expert witness.
>
>He scammed Zundel out of fifty thousand dollars.    Zundel should have 
>sued - he would have won.
>
>
>> As they have done with all those who have raised doubts about their stinky 
>> Holocaust(tm) b'ullshit.
>
>And here you are, pathetically defending your last, greatest hope, who  got 
>caught in blatant lies.
>
>The *lawyers* knew more about the science than he did.
>
>Again: Leuchter was not mistaken, he was lying.
>
>
>-pk
>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> -pk
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> 


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed Dec 24 13:18:56 EST 2008
Article: 1974222 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Leuchter's Lie
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
Message-ID: 
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On Wed, 24 Dec 2008 04:09:29 +0000 (UTC), "I'll Always Be 23/12/08"
 wrote:

>Bent Attorney  wrote in news:4f865889-ab3d-
>4717-b648-3f86dc80f4ee@a29g2000pra.googlegroups.com:
>
>> On Dec 23, 7:22�pm, kmc...@shell.vex.net (Kenneth McVay OBC) wrote:
>>> In article <0ze4l.363$%v1.63@edtnps83>, Kurt Knoll  
>w
>> rote:
>>> >Look more like you are on a search and destroy mission here. Even if
>>> >Leuchter was a foremost expert you will find a way to discredit him. I
>>> >suggest you clean your sliminess behind you.
>>>
>>> Leuchter was not, and is not, an expert in anything but lying under 
>oath.
>> 
>> You are so naive.  Judges lie and commit fraud every day.  So do
>> lawyers.  So do doctors.  So do 'experts'.
>
>
>That leuchter was not an expert,

This is irrelevant. What is relevant is whether there were, or were
not, cyanide residues in the alleged homicidal gas chambers as would
be the expectation. I suspect that there are no cyanide residues,
since otherwise the holocaust� lobby wouldn't be attacking Leuchter's
qualifications. You generally don't need to be an "expert" to make
some measurements with a measurement kit. Otherwise illiterate
pool-boys make chlorine concentration measurements on swimming pools
all the time and there measurements are usually quite accurate despite
their lack of a PhD in chemistry.




> are you having trouble reading again.
>
>
>>  So what's your point?  My point is that the oath is bs.
>
>
>Then why did zundel have leuchter testify?
>
>> Don't you have any real life experience or do you rely on books and
>> CNN for everything?
>
>
>What's your point? Oh, I see, it's that christians can be depended on to 
>lie, even under oath. Thank you.
>
>
>> 
>>>
>>> I guess Frau Pikelhaube understand that Leuchter "searched and 
>destroyed"
>>> himself, since he did, in fact, lie under oath.
>>>
>>> YOU have yet to prove that the Yale University Law "Avalon Project"
>>> is "Jewish," as you claimed in August, 2008.
>>>
>>> YOU have yet to prove that "Gussen was a regional crematorium
>>> and therefore also included civilian death from this area," as you
>>> claimed on July 3, 2008.
>>>
>>> YOU have yet to prove that "the Germans killed more Jews
>>> that were ever alive" as you claimed on June 28, 2008
>>>
>>> YOU have yet to prove that reporters or photographers carried
>>> "5 or 6" striped inmate uniforms from concentration camp to
>>> concentration camp just to photograph people wearing them,
>>> as you have claimed.
>>>
>>> YOU have yet to prove that (1) human fat will not combust, and
>>> (2) contribute to the heat of the cremation process, as you
>>> have claimed.
>>>
>>> YOU have failed to prove the existence of a single "Eisenhower
>>> death camp," as you have claimed, and you have ignored the fact
>>> that the German Government itself has said that Bacque's
>>> assertions about hundreds of thousands of German soldiers being
>>> deliberately starved to death is absolute rubbish.
>>>
>>> YOU have failed to document that concentration camp guards -
>>> ANY concentration camp guards - were ever placed under any
>>> sort of "gag order" by anyone, as you have claimed, nor have you
>>> been able to produce this alleged "gag order," or point to any
>>> archive, anywhere in the world, where it might be found.
>>>
>>> YOU have failed to prove your incredibly stupid assertion that
>>> 45,000 people died during the bombing of Nurnberg as you have claimed.
>>>
>>> YOU have failed to prove your bizarre assertion that someone,
>>> somewhere, said that the Germans killed prisoners at Mauthausen
>>> as soon as they arrived by train, as you have claimed.
>>>
>>> YOU have yet to show which clause of the Versailles Treaty, exactly,
>>> prohibits the construction of Polish military installations along
>>> the Polish Corridor, even though you claim such a prohibition exists
>>> within the treaty.
>>>
>>> YOU have failed to produce any "agreement" between the Allies and the
>>> post-war German government that banned "butting" the Allies in "a bad
>>> light" as you have claimed.
>>>
>>> YOU have not contacted European universities to determine whether or 
>not
>>> materials you claim are "banned," as you have claimed, are available.
>>>
>>> YOU have not documented a single law that banned publication of 
>newspaper
>> s
>>> printed between 1918 and 1939, as you have claimed.
>>>
>>> YOU have not contacted the IFZ to ask them to document their claim 
>about
>>> gassings at Dachau.
>>>
>>> YOU cannot produce a shred of documentation proving that a plaque 
>exists
>>> outside the Dachau camp which states that no one was ever gassed there,
>>> as you have claimed.
>>>
>>> YOU have not documented a single law which bans "discussion of the
>>> Holocaust," or "asking questions about the Holocaust," as you have
>>> claimed.
>>>
>>> THAT is why your claim that you are here to "find out the truth" is so
>>> easily revealed as a blatant lie.
>>>
>>> YOU have not documented or identified a single law which forbids
>>> "dissection" of Holocaust historiography, as you have claimed.
>>>
>>> --
>>> �"Irving's conclusions were completely untenable. I thought his
>>> scholarship was sloppy and unreliable and did not meet even the
>>> most basic requirements of honest and competent historical
>>> research." � � � � � � (Richard Evans, Lying About Hitler, p.
>> 70)
>> 
>> 


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed Dec 24 13:18:56 EST 2008
Article: 1974223 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Leuchter's Lie
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
Message-ID: 
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On Mon, 22 Dec 2008 16:03:57 +0000 (UTC), a-little-sanity,  please
 wrote:

>In article <751vk4tmifbr1g5nls4onh1h1b5kg6n700@4ax.com>,
>Johannes von Ebersdorf   wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 22 Dec 2008 06:59:22 +0000 (UTC), a-little-sanity,  please
>>  wrote:
>
>>> When someone who only holds a BA claims to be an "engineer" it's
>>> not a mistake.  It's a deliberate lie.  End of story.
>
>> It rather depends on the university involved as to what degrees they
>> hand out for what. 
>
>Oh crap.  Leuchter studied at Boston University,  but graduated
>with a bachelor of arts.  He knows nothing about science.
>
>> Besides, a chemical test for the presence of cyanide compounds is not
>> invalid merely because the person doing it does not have a university
>> degree. The test itself works as designed regardless of the
>> qualifications of the technician.
>
>But because of his colossal stupidity and ignorance,  old Fred was
>dead wrong about what the results mean.  For example,  he had
>no idea that killing people with HCN requires a far shorter
>exposure and lower concentration as compared to killing lice
>etc.

No, those were post event justification attempts by the holocaust�
industry to explain why nobody, including Fred, found any traces of
cyanide residue where they would surely have been expected. Rather
sensitive chemical tests are available so that even very tiny traces
of cyanide compounds could have been detected. The logical conclusion
is that the walls tested were never exposed to cyanide, whereas the
holocaust� industry version is that these walls are anomalous and defy
the laws of physics and chemistry, much like the jumping buckets of
flesh stories or the flames from the crematorium chimney stories.



From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed Dec 24 13:18:56 EST 2008
Article: 1974224 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What is 'Holocaust Denial'? That's so stupid but you must swallow it, buddy. That's the DOGMA's law.
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On Mon, 22 Dec 2008 21:59:47 +0000 (UTC), "I'll Always Be 22/12/08"
 wrote:

>"Kurt Knoll"  wrote in news:G0S3l.44$z%.7@edtnps82:
>
>> What German historians do you mean ?
>
>
>You are not only lying, but doing so intentionally, because you know full
>well that German historians of the Functionalist and Intentionalist
>schools have debated - and thus criticized - Holocaust historiography for 
>decades.

The NS regime dismissed all the teachers of the previous regime, and
the post-war allied puppet regimes did much the same thing. Anybody
who wasn't 100% with the allied program was fired.

As a university professor in Germany, you pretty much have to follow
the party line or you can count on being fired or worse.

German academics are no longer a credible source for anything to do
with WW2 or the NS period.

>
>See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functionalism_versus_intentionalism for
>details. 
>
>Historians like Hans Mommsen, a member of the Social Democratic Party of
>Germany who has taught at Tuebingen and Bochum, Martin Broszat (Cologne,
>and the IFZ, Munich), Andreas Hillgruber (d. 1989, having taught at
>Marburg, Freiburg and Cologne)... 
>
>Karl Bracher (Berlin, Bonn - Wikipedia says, "Bracher has often 
>CRITICIZED the functionist-structuralist interpretation of the Third 
>Reich championed by such scholars such as Martin Broszat and Hans 
>Mommsen, and decried their view of Hitler as a 'weak dictator'. In
>Bracher's view, Hitler was the  'Master of the Third Reich'. With respect
>to the genesis of the Holocaust, he is a confirmed Intentionalist. It is
>his position that the entire project of the genocide of European Jewry
>resulted from Adolf Hitler's anti-Semitic hatred."), Klaus Hildebrand
>(Bonn)... 
>
>Eberhard Jaeckel (Stuttgart - Wikipedia says, "J�ckel is one of  the
>leading Intentionalists in regard to the Functionalism versus
>Intentionalism debate, arguing from the 1960s on that there was a long 
>range plan on the part of Hitler to exterminate the Jewish people from 
>about 1924 on, views that led to INTENSE DEBATES with Functionalist 
>historians such as Hans Mommsen and Martin Broszat.Recently, J�ckel has 
>modified his position. He now believes that most of the initiatives for 
>the Holocaust came from Hitler, though it was more the result of a series 
>of ad hoc decisions rather a masterplan on the part of Hitler. In the 
>Historikerstreit (Historians' Dispute) of the 1986- 1988, J�ckel was a 
>prominent critic of Ernst Nolte, whose theory of Nazi crimes as a reaction 
>to Soviet crimes was denounced as ahistorical by J�ckel under the grounds  
>that Hitler held the Soviet Union in contempt and therefore could
>not have possibly felt threatened by the Soviets as Nolte suggested.")... 
>
>
> the once who are political correct.
>
>Interesting. Can you provide the original documents?
>
>
> 
>> Because if the are not they would be out of a jop.
>
>
>You are not only lying, but doing so intentionally, because you know full
>well that German historians of the Functionalist and Intentionalist
>schools have debated - and thus criticized - Holocaust historiography for 
>decades.
>
>See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functionalism_versus_intentionalism for
>details. 
>
>Historians like Hans Mommsen, a member of the Social Democratic Party of
>Germany who has taught at Tuebingen and Bochum, Martin Broszat (Cologne,
>and the IFZ, Munich), Andreas Hillgruber (d. 1989, having taught at
>Marburg, Freiburg and Cologne)... 
>
>Karl Bracher (Berlin, Bonn - Wikipedia says, "Bracher has often 
>CRITICIZED the functionist-structuralist interpretation of the Third 
>Reich championed by such scholars such as Martin Broszat and Hans 
>Mommsen, and decried their view of Hitler as a 'weak dictator'. In
>Bracher's view, Hitler was the  'Master of the Third Reich'. With respect
>to the genesis of the Holocaust, he is a confirmed Intentionalist. It is
>his position that the entire project of the genocide of European Jewry
>resulted from Adolf Hitler's anti-Semitic hatred."), Klaus Hildebrand
>(Bonn)... 
>
>Eberhard Jaeckel (Stuttgart - Wikipedia says, "J�ckel is one of  the
>leading Intentionalists in regard to the Functionalism versus
>Intentionalism debate, arguing from the 1960s on that there was a long 
>range plan on the part of Hitler to exterminate the Jewish people from 
>about 1924 on, views that led to INTENSE DEBATES with Functionalist 
>historians such as Hans Mommsen and Martin Broszat.Recently, J�ckel has 
>modified his position. He now believes that most of the initiatives for 
>the Holocaust came from Hitler, though it was more the result of a series 
>of ad hoc decisions rather a masterplan on the part of Hitler. In the 
>Historikerstreit (Historians' Dispute) of the 1986- 1988, J�ckel was a 
>prominent critic of Ernst Nolte, whose theory of Nazi crimes as a reaction 
>to Soviet crimes was denounced as ahistorical by J�ckel under the grounds  
>that Hitler held the Soviet Union in contempt and therefore could
>not have possibly felt threatened by the Soviets as Nolte suggested.")... 
>
>
>
>> Kurt Knoll.
>> 
>> "I'll Always Be 21/12/08"  wrote in message 
>> news:Xns9B7B886D0494CTheonlyonethatcares@87.106.137.111...
>>> "Kurt Knoll"  wrote in news:R3v3l.1898$sM.58
>@edtnps83:
>>>
>>>> Makes on wonder why the Jews do not want anyone to question the
>>>> holocaust. The message is clear thy know the holocaust saga has many
>>>> many wholes. And this is why they do not tolerate any open discussions
>>>> because there is too much at stake here.
>>>
>>>
>>> You are not only lying, but doing so intentionally, because you know 
>full
>>> well that German historians of the Functionalist and Intentionalist
>>> schools have debated - and thus criticized - Holocaust historiography 
>for
>>> decades.
>>>
>>> See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functionalism_versus_intentionalism 
>for
>>> details.
>>>
>>> Historians like Hans Mommsen, a member of the Social Democratic Party 
>of
>>> Germany who has taught at Tuebingen and Bochum, Martin Broszat 
>(Cologne,
>>> and the IFZ, Munich), Andreas Hillgruber (d. 1989, having taught at
>>> Marburg, Freiburg and Cologne)...
>>>
>>> Karl Bracher (Berlin, Bonn - Wikipedia says, "Bracher has often
>>> CRITICIZED the functionist-structuralist interpretation of the Third
>>> Reich championed by such scholars such as Martin Broszat and Hans
>>> Mommsen, and decried their view of Hitler as a 'weak dictator'. In
>>> Bracher's view, Hitler was the  'Master of the Third Reich'. With 
>respect
>>> to the genesis of the Holocaust, he is a confirmed Intentionalist. It 
>is
>>> his position that the entire project of the genocide of European Jewry
>>> resulted from Adolf Hitler's anti-Semitic hatred."), Klaus Hildebrand
>>> (Bonn)...
>>>
>>> Eberhard Jaeckel (Stuttgart - Wikipedia says, "J�ckel is one of  the
>>> leading Intentionalists in regard to the Functionalism versus
>>> Intentionalism debate, arguing from the 1960s on that there was a long
>>> range plan on the part of Hitler to exterminate the Jewish people from
>>> about 1924 on, views that led to INTENSE DEBATES with Functionalist
>>> historians such as Hans Mommsen and Martin Broszat.Recently, J�ckel has
>>> modified his position. He now believes that most of the initiatives for
>>> the Holocaust came from Hitler, though it was more the result of a 
>series
>>> of ad hoc decisions rather a masterplan on the part of Hitler. In the
>>> Historikerstreit (Historians' Dispute) of the 1986- 1988, J�ckel was a
>>> prominent critic of Ernst Nolte, whose theory of Nazi crimes as a 
>reaction
>>> to Soviet crimes was denounced as ahistorical by J�ckel under the 
>grounds
>>> that Hitler held the Soviet Union in contempt and therefore could
>>> not have possibly felt threatened by the Soviets as Nolte 
>suggested.")...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I myself when I get hinters
>>>> from asking questions make me more curious.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Strange. When we ask you questions, we get no answers. Why do you not
>>> tolerate open discussions?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Kurt Knoll.
>>>>
>>>> "Bent Attorney"  wrote in message
>>>> news:2bb8bf5c-52d9-492d-9987-
>d94a1c276cda@w7g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
>>>>> Phil 'Phil 'er up' Matthews has complained that I stray from the 
>topic
>>>>> of the thread.  So I offer you a solid definition of holocaust 
>denial.
>>>>> Holocaust denial comes in many forms.  Some denial stems from
>>>>> particular hatred of a certain cultural group.  A few examples are in
>>>>> order of course.  Other denials of holocausts stem from the
>>>>> realization that many have, that the media is controlled by
>>>>> Zionists(not necessarily always Jews) and therefore one sided in its
>>>>> 'reporting.'
>>>>> There are those that deny the existence of the Eisenhower death
>>>>> POW(funny how they changed that designation to DEF)camps(quite a
>>>>> massive holocaust wouldn't you agree) in Europe.  Evidence has been
>>>>> presented verifying the existence of these camps, but has been denied
>>>>> by the Zionist controlled deniers.
>>>>> There have been many holocausts(actual burning of individuals with
>>>>> fire)in the German and Japanese cities during WWII, but these have
>>>>> been deemed necessary and that those who were on the receiving end of
>>>>> this holocaust deserved what they got.  Ken McVay the fighter of the
>>>>> spread of hate on the internet has stated this his very royal self.
>>>>> McVay himself has stated that denying of the Jewish holocaust offends
>>>>> his sense of humanity.  Sadly this broken man has no sense of 
>humanity
>>>>> when it comes to innocents caught up in wars.  Wait.  Doesn't this
>>>>> statement contradict what this McVay character is all about?
>>>>> Well; yeah.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed Dec 24 13:18:57 EST 2008
Article: 1974225 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Is Jewish ritual circumcision a form of pedophilia?
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On Mon, 22 Dec 2008 08:37:42 -0800 (PST), jgarbuz
 wrote:

>On Dec 21, 6:38�pm, Peace Power  wrote:
>> On Dec 21, 1:18�pm, jgarbuz  wrote:
>>
>> > No, circumcision is healthy and lowers the chances of cancer and AIDs.
>> > That is medical science.
>>
>> WRONG:http://www.circumcisionandhiv.com/
>>
>> Check out the dozens of articles on the site above.
>>
>> > The foreskin like the tonsils and the
>> > appendix are useless appendages that can only
>> > cause trouble later in life.
>>
>> WRONG:
>> Ryan McAllister, Ph.D., Executive Director of NotJustSkin.org and
>> others.
>> One of NotJustSkin's primary missions is to educate the public about
>> violations of informed consent or bodily integrity. In the U.S., male
>> genital cutting, more often called circumcision, is commonly practiced
>> even though parents rarely receive the information that would be
>> required to give informed consent to any other procedure. Circumcision
>> is the only procedure where a doctor can legally amputate part of a
>> nonconsenting child without any medical reason.
>>
>> The following are answers to some commonly asked questions about
>> circumcision. Further questions and suggestions can be directed to
>> Ryan, above.
>>
>> Isn't circumcision just a little snip?
>> In a typical infant boy, the foreskin is a double-sided sleeve of skin
>> and soft mucosal tissue that completely encloses the glans (the head
>> of the penis). It is actually physically bonded to the infant's glans.
>> This skin contains thousands of blood vessels and specialized nerves.
>> In an adult, it would grow to cover 12-15 square inches. Circumcision
>> removes this part of the penis. The operator forces a metal clamp
>> inside the foreskin, and tears the skin away from the glans. The
>> operator then slices the foreskin down past the glans and cuts the
>> foreskin off. The entire procedure is excruciatingly painful. Infant
>> circumcision is performed without adequate anesthesia, since
>> anesthetizing such a young infant can be very dangerous. Partial or
>> complete amputation of the penis sometimes occurs. Some children even
>> die from the trauma, hemorrhage, or other complications.
>>
>> What problems can occur after the initial surgery? Are there
>> complications?
>> Immediately after circumcision, a child is at risk for infection and
>> hemorrhage. The loss of the protective foreskin places him at risk for
>> complications including meatitis (inflammation and ulceration of the
>> urinary meatus), meatal stenosis (constriction of the meatus,
>> resulting in blocked urinary flow and potential infection), preputial
>> stenosis (scarring that constricts the glans), and buried penis
>> (entrapment of the penis by scar tissue). Together, these conditions,
>> which are almost unheard of in non-circumcised males, affect up to 20%
>> of circumcised males and may require additional surgery.
>>
>> A circumcised male may also experience chafing and abrasion of the
>> exposed glans against clothing, painful erections due to the tightened
>> skin, scarring, and desensitization that can severely reduce enjoyment
>> of sexual activity. A circumcised penis may be significantly smaller
>> than it would otherwise have been. For more information, see the
>> Circumcision Information Resource Center, under "Complications of
>> circumcision."
>>
>> What is the value of the foreskin?
>> The foreskin has protective, sensory, biomechanical, and immunological
>> functions. Throughout life, the outer part of the foreskin protects
>> the sensitive inner part of the foreskin and the glans from injury,
>> abrasion, chafing, and infection. The foreskin keeps its mucosal
>> tissue and the glans soft and moist so that it maintains sensitivity.
>> During sexual activity, the foreskin glides up and down over the
>> glans, providing sensation from thousands of specialized nerve endings
>> in the inner foreskin. Parts of the foreskin, including the frenulum
>> (a narrow membrane on the underside of the foreskin) and the ridged
>> band (the edge of the foreskin, between the inner and outer skin), are
>> particularly important in sexual function. See the Circumcision
>> Information Resource Center, under "Foreskin sexual function."
>> Circumcision removes most of the inner and outer foreskin, and
>> destroys these functions.
>>
>> The foreskin secretes immunological substances that fight infection,
>> called lysozymes, and also produces natural lubricants, reducing the
>> need for artificial lubricants during sex. The presence of the
>> foreskin can enhance the sexual experience for both partners. Polls of
>> women who had experienced both circumcised and uncircumcised partners
>> indicated a strong preference for the latter, with longer duration of
>> coitus and higher rate of orgasm cited as the main reasons (for
>> example, see "The effect of male circumcision on the sexual enjoyment
>> of the female partner").
>>
>> http://www.notjustskin.org/en/circumcisionfaq.html
>>
>> > On Dec 21, 3:44�pm, Peace Power  wrote:
>>
>> > > On Dec 21, 12:22�pm, Viejo Vizcacha  wrote:
>>
>> > > > On Dec 21, 3:17�pm, Peace Power  wrote:
>> > > > No. Circumcision is not pedophilia,
>>
>> > > You did not look at the photos, obviously.
>>
>> > >http://jewsribsinbearjaw.wordpress.com/2008/12/19/is-jewish-ritual-ci...
>>
>> > > > but it certainly is child abuse.
>>
>> > > It is that, also - as well as pedohelia; both are child abuse.<
>
>Gentiles don't have to circumcise; Jews do if they want to be Jews. I
>don't want to impose circumcision on non-Jews, as I don't care if they
>do or don't get AIDS. But Gentiles have no right to tell us Jews what
>we must do.

The benefits of circumcision in the prevention of HIV infection have
been grossly overstated.

Religious crackpottery does not justify genital mutilation of an
infant. The boy needs to be of an age where he can make an informed
decision as to whether he wishes to have his penis vandalized. Anybody
who does this to an infant, somebody incapable of consent, is a child
molester.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed Dec 24 13:18:57 EST 2008
Article: 1974226 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Is Jewish ritual circumcision a form of pedophilia?
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Mon, 22 Dec 2008 11:57:28 -0800 (PST), jgarbuz
 wrote:

>On Dec 22, 7:21�am, Johannes von Ebersdorf 
>wrote:
>> On Mon, 22 Dec 2008 06:17:23 +0000 (UTC), Jean Naimard
>>
>>  wrote:
>> >Le Sun, 21 Dec 2008 13:18:04 -0800, jgarbuz a �crit :
>>
>> >> No, circumcision is healthy and lowers the chances of cancer and AIDs.
>> >> That is medical science. �The foreskin like the tonsils and the appendix
>> >> are useless appendages that can only cause trouble later in life.
>>
>> >This has been debunked many times.
>>
>> >Circumcision reduces penis sensitivity, and thus impedes orgasm.
>>
>> >This could account with the extreme frustration the jewish religion
>> >exhibits towards sex.
>>
>> Both the tonsils and the foreskin have definite functions. They are
>> anything but "useless" except for religious nuts like garbageguz.<
>
>You can keep yours until they "plotz."

I've never had a problem with either organ, but thanks for your
concern.

Most people never have a problem with either organ which is why
doctors are not nearly so keen to remove tonsils as was once the case,
and circumcisions have become pretty rare in Canada ever since the
medical insurance delisted circumcision as "cosmetic" and refused to
pay for it. Faced with a bill for $500 or leaving their son "natural",
most Canadian parents are opting for natural.

Genital mutilation in males is just as abhorrent as genital
mutilations in females. These barbarous practices belong in primitive
societies and not in modern first-world states.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed Dec 24 13:18:58 EST 2008
Article: 1974227 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Is Jewish ritual circumcision a form of pedophilia?
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Tue, 23 Dec 2008 07:19:23 +0000 (UTC), Jean Naimard
 wrote:

>Le Mon, 22 Dec 2008 21:24:03 -0500, Eli Grubman a �crit :
>
>> She's not even jewish, for fuck's sake.  She's an Ir*sh wannabe.
>
>Why would being irish preclude being jewish? One is a religion and the 
>other is a nationality; they can overlap.


Jews on this newsgroup insist that being Jewish is an ethnicity rather
than just a religion, but I rather lean towards your interpretation.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed Dec 24 13:18:58 EST 2008
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Is Jewish ritual circumcision a form of pedophilia?
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Mon, 22 Dec 2008 08:45:24 -0800 (PST), jgarbuz
 wrote:

>On Dec 22, 1:17�am, Jean Naimard gmail.com> wrote:
>> Le Sun, 21 Dec 2008 13:18:04 -0800, jgarbuz a �crit :
>>
>> > No, circumcision is healthy and lowers the chances of cancer and AIDs.
>> > That is medical science. �The foreskin like the tonsils and the appendix
>> > are useless appendages that can only cause trouble later in life.
>>
>> This has been debunked many times.
>>
>> Circumcision reduces penis sensitivity, and thus impedes orgasm.
>> This could account with the extreme frustration the jewish religion
>> exhibits towards sex.<
>
>Judaism has no frustration about sex.

Sure, that explains why hundreds of pages of the old testament are
devoted to sexual sins and why women are considered unclean after
childbirth. That sure sounds like a sexual hangup to me.






> Christianity does. In fact, it
>is a "mitzvah" to have sex with your wife on the Sabbath. It's the
>church that made sex frustrating.
>And if it's true that circumcision impedes orgasm, then that should
>make women happier.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed Dec 24 13:18:59 EST 2008
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Is Jewish ritual circumcision a form of pedophilia?
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Mon, 22 Dec 2008 08:33:01 -0800 (PST), jgarbuz
 wrote:

>On Dec 21, 5:53�pm, Viejo Vizcacha  wrote:
>> On Dec 21, 4:16�pm, jgarbuz  wrote:
>>
>> > On Dec 21, 3:22�pm, Viejo Vizcacha  wrote:
>>
>> > > On Dec 21, 3:17�pm, Peace Power  wrote:
>>
>> > > > some Jew hating propaganda, sure enough. �But, she raises an interesting
>> > > > �point.
>>
>> > > No. Circumcision is not pedophilia, but it certainly is child abuse.<
>>
>> > No, it's biblical,
>>
>> The bible is filled with debauchery, murder, and tests that a mean and
>> cruel god keeps bringing to his followers.<
>
>The Bible was the one  bright spot in a world filled with murder and
>slavery. The Bible gave us a day of rest. There was no "weekend" under
>Roman law. The Romans put men and beasts in stadiums to tear each
>other apart for sport. And, God is not cruel; man is. It's man's
>disobedience that ultimately brings down God's wrath.

The Jewish god of the old testament is every bit as vicious and
capricious as any primitive tribal human-sacrifice god. Tribes create
their gods after their own personalities, not the other way around.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed Dec 24 13:18:59 EST 2008
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Is Jewish ritual circumcision a form of pedophilia?
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On Mon, 22 Dec 2008 12:00:06 -0800 (PST), jgarbuz
 wrote:

>On Dec 22, 7:23�am, Johannes von Ebersdorf 
>wrote:
>> On Mon, 22 Dec 2008 06:18:48 +0000 (UTC), Jean Naimard
>>
>>  wrote:
>> >Le Sun, 21 Dec 2008 13:16:24 -0800, jgarbuz a �crit :
>>
>> >> By contrast, homosexual sex
>> >> is an abomination,
>>
>> >Brandishing religious bullshit to control people *IS* the real
>> >abomination here.
>>
>> Garbageguz is entitled to his superstitions, but he is not entitled to
>> force them onto others.<
>
>No one in my religion is forcing anything on anyone outside the fold,
>and I have as yet to see any scientifically validated results
>indicating that circumcision is in any way harmful. I think there is
>more potential harm that can result from ear and nose and nipple and
>tongue and clitoral piercing that some of you white barbarians seem to
>engage in. Piercing the skin for any reason OTHER than circumcision,
>or bonafide medical surgery is forbidden. 


>Remember, you're the barbarians, not us.

Civilized, enlightened people are not into genital mutilation of
infants. That seems to be your province.

There is nothing barbaric about Europeans, who have managed to produce
the highest level of civilization ever known on this planet.



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On Tue, 23 Dec 2008 20:14:20 +1000, "Ben Cramer"
 wrote:

>
>"jgarbuz"  wrote in message 
>news:b84ab9b9-f107-4e88-9479-6eceb196b1e6@f20g2000yqg.googlegroups.com...
>On Dec 21, 5:53 pm, Viejo Vizcacha  wrote:
>> On Dec 21, 4:16 pm, jgarbuz  wrote:
>>
>> > On Dec 21, 3:22 pm, Viejo Vizcacha  wrote:
>>
>> > > On Dec 21, 3:17 pm, Peace Power  wrote:
>>
>> > > > some Jew hating propaganda, sure enough. But, she raises an 
>> > > > interesting
>> > > > point.
>>
>> > > No. Circumcision is not pedophilia, but it certainly is child abuse.<
>>
>> > No, it's biblical,
>>
>> The bible is filled with debauchery, murder, and tests that a mean and
>> cruel god keeps bringing to his followers.<
>
>>The Bible was the one  bright spot in a world filled with murder and
>>slavery.
>
>The bible is a work of fiction, stupid.
>
>Had it been written today, there is not a publisher alive who would touch 
>it.

It contains way too much material that would be considered
pornographic.

>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed Dec 24 13:19:00 EST 2008
Article: 1974232 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Is Jewish ritual circumcision a form of pedophilia?
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Mon, 22 Dec 2008 22:16:47 +0000 (UTC), "I'll Always Be 22/12/08"
 wrote:

>Johannes von Ebersdorf  wrote in 
>news:cl1vk4t827htn97gdv22bk8blfdi4i6513@4ax.com:
>
>> On Mon, 22 Dec 2008 06:18:48 +0000 (UTC), Jean Naimard
>>  wrote:
>> 
>>>Le Sun, 21 Dec 2008 13:16:24 -0800, jgarbuz a �crit :
>>>
>>>> By contrast, homosexual sex
>>>> is an abomination,
>>>
>>>Brandishing religious bullshit to control people *IS* the real 
>>>abomination here.
>> 
>> Garbageguz is entitled to his superstitions, but he is not entitled to
>> force them onto others.
>
>So why does your tribe force it's superstitions on others? Damn christmas 
>carols and holidays that give people days off work. Why must we see 
>"crosses" in public venues and those damn prayers before sporting events?

You are not required to live in Christian countries. If you can't
stand the locals, move somewhere else, if they will have you.

If I were to settle in China, for example, it would be rather
unreasonable for me to expect them to stop being Chinese merely
because their customs are not my customs.

I don't have much patience with some of our Jamaican contingent here
in Canada who profess a hatred for "honkies". They knew that "honkies"
were plentiful in Canada before they arrived, so why go there if one
hates "honkies"? 


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed Dec 24 13:19:00 EST 2008
Article: 1974233 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Is Jewish ritual circumcision a form of pedophilia?
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Mon, 22 Dec 2008 22:47:33 GMT, flaviaR@verizon.net wrote:

>
>On 22-Dec-2008, Jean Naimard 
>wrote:
>
>> Le Mon, 22 Dec 2008 15:58:09 +0000, flaviaR a écrit :
>>
>> > Or, in your case, religious HATRED.
>>
>> Religion is the prime source of hatred in the world
>
>And your religion *is* hatred, as you've shown.
>You know less than nothing about Judaism, &
>yet pretend you actually know something at all
>- same for circ.
>
>Susan

Get off the pot, Susan. Circumcision is an unnecessary surgical
assault on the body of another person. Canada's medical system, for
example, does not cover circumcision. It is considered cosmetic and
has to be paid for by the parents.

I find that should parents decide to amputate toes, hands, or feet in
the name of religion, they would soon find themselves in prison. Why
do we tolerate genital mutilation in a modern first-world country?


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Wed Dec 24 13:19:01 EST 2008
Article: 1974234 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Is Jewish ritual circumcision a form of pedophilia?
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Mon, 22 Dec 2008 08:30:00 -0800 (PST), jgarbuz
 wrote:

>On Dec 21, 5:52�pm, anarch...@reborn.com wrote:
>> On Dec 21, 1:17 pm, Peace Power  wrote:
>>
>> > The Jews� repugnant rite of circumcision is arguably a form of sadism,
>> > homosexuality, pedophilia, and oral sex; and it�s generally consistent
>> > with the Talmud, which condones all sorts of violence and corruption,
>> > including murder, theft, fraud, adultery, pederasty and bestiality.
>>
>> Thanks for posting this, it inspired some thoughts I've had coalescing
>> in by sub/conscious for a while. �My thoughts:
>>
>> Isn't it interesting that the more sane, advanced, peaceful countries
>> are ones that do not practice circumcision:
>>
>> http://www.cirp.org/library/general/wallerstein/
>> "The continuing practice of routine neonatal nonreligious circumcision
>> represents an enigma, particularly in the United States. About 80
>> percent of the world's population do not practice circumcision, nor
>> have they ever done so. Among the non-circumcising nations are
>> Holland, Belgium, France, Germany, Switzerland, Austria, Scandinavia,
>> the U.S.S.R., China, and Japan. People employing circumcision do so
>> either for "health" reasons or as a religious ritual practiced by
>> Muslims, Jews, most black Africans, non-white Australians, and
>> others."
>>
>> Where it is practiced widely there is unending social violence,
>> barbarism, sexual abuse, drug addiction, repressive regimes.
>>
>> These shitholes have the highest rates of slicerdision 75-100% of the
>> population(and this from some Jew :<
>
>The bloodiest wars in the last century were in Europe, started by the
>uncircumcised Germans,

That allegation is highly debatable. The vast majority of the world's
people are not victims of genital mutilation. Genital mutilation is
the province of primitives, whether cultural or religious.


> and in Asia started by the uncircumcised
>Japanese. And many studies in Africa have indicated that the rate of
>AIDS infection is much lower among circumcised populations.
>But leftist Jews are often against circumcision. My leftist bitch ex-
>wife in Israel tried her best to keep our son from getting
>circumcised, but I fought her tooth and nail and he was, at 8 days in
>accordance to our ancient tribal laws.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Dec 26 13:58:35 EST 2008
Article: 1974963 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: HOLOCAUST FAQ: Auschwitz-Birkenau: Layman's Guide (1/2)
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
Message-ID: 
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On Wed, 24 Dec 2008 21:58:04 +0000 (UTC), "I'll Always Be 24/12/08"
 wrote:

>Johannes von Ebersdorf  wrote in 
>news:82d4l4pqtacklge32eif66s0c4lp44qr4v@4ax.com:
>
>> On Tue, 23 Dec 2008 21:21:04 +0000 (UTC), "I'll Always Be 23/12/08"
>>  wrote:
>> 
>>>"Kurt Knoll"  wrote in news:7Kb4l.239$z%.234
>@edtnps82:
>>>
>>>> Now is the time sucker go and play with yourself.
>>>
>>>
>>>So you refuse to aid us in the search for truth?
>> 
>> You have never been searching for truth. Your business is to suppress
>> the truth.
>
>
>If that's the case, I'll be glad to see you document that. But you won't, 
>will you mr skalliks?

LOL

You're still flogging that dead horse. It hasn't done much work for
you lately, has it? It won't in the future either.

>
>
>> 
>>>What are you hiding?
>> 
>> One could ask you the same question.
>
>
>And the answer would be nothing. Or can you prove otherwise?
>
>
>> 
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Kurt Knoll.
>>>> 
>>>> "I'll Always Be 23/12/08"  wrote in 
>message 
>>>> news:Xns9B7D70432BF11Theonlyonethatcares@87.106.137.111...
>>>>> "Kurt Knoll"  wrote in
>>>>> news:Ud94l.318$%v1.279@edtnps83:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Everytime someone disagrees with them they will go on a search and
>>>>>> destroy mission do discredit anyone who does not eat the holocaust 
>>>saga
>>>>>> hook line and sinker. one just must take a good look at the show 
>>>trials
>>>>>> where they do an all out effort to discredit anyone that is in their
>>>>>> way. Kurt Knoll.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Every time someone asks you a question you will call them names,
>>>>> intimidate and knoll, but you never answer questions
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Ben Cramer"  wrote in message
>>>>>> news:ad6dnf_hxpIQYc3UnZ2dnUVZ_o3inZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Toivo Kottarainen"  wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:4950e1e3$0$4780$9b536df3@news.fv.fi...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Ben Cramer"  >
>>>>>>>>> "Toivo Kottarainen"  wrote in 
>message
>>>>>>>>> news:494fa495$0$4789$9b536df3@news.fv.fi...
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "Kurt Knoll" 
>>>>>>>>>>>I do not need one gord . While living in Nuremberg whe the show
>>>>>>>>>>>trial was on id did listening to it every day. What irks me the 
>>>most
>>>>>>>>>>>is when the accused wanted to give an explanatotion. The
>>>>>>>>>>>transmission was interrupted and we were allowed to the 
>religious
>>>>>>>>>>>service of the local Synagogue. You must also remember it was 
>the
>>>>>>>>>>>Germans who did pay for the rebuilding of the synagoe war time 
>by
>>>>>>>>>>>the allied.
>>>>>>>>>>> Kurt Knoll.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> As a former Nuremberger, You may also be familiar with this:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> * The Nuremberg Laws were designed by Hitler to define the 
>status 
>>>of
>>>>>>>>>> Jews in Germany and to restrict them in political and social 
>life.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Which was a very clever move, given the yids had all but 
>destroyed
>>>>>>>>> Germany and had publicly stated that their goal was to finish the
>>>>>>>>> job.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> From this I understand that You are not a denier of The Holocaust 
>>>but
>>>>>>>> a justifier of it, belonging to the group B of revisionists.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Topi
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's the yids who have declared me to be a denier sunschein, simply
>>>>>>> because I don't swallow the entire story wholesale.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Lay off the vodkkka.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>> 


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Dec 26 13:58:35 EST 2008
Article: 1974964 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: HOLOCAUST FAQ: Auschwitz-Birkenau: Layman's Guide (1/2)
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
Message-ID: 
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On Wed, 24 Dec 2008 21:56:53 +0000 (UTC), "I'll Always Be 24/12/08"
 wrote:

>Johannes von Ebersdorf  wrote in 
>news:mec4l4924tbmc8t54c1cfa2lt646bef1t7@4ax.com:
>
>> On Tue, 23 Dec 2008 19:02:10 +0000 (UTC), "I'll Always Be 23/12/08"
>>  wrote:
>> 
>>>"Kurt Knoll"  wrote in
>>>news:Ud94l.318$%v1.279@edtnps83: 
>>>
>>>> Everytime someone disagrees with them they will go on a search and
>>>> destroy mission do discredit anyone who does not eat the holocaust 
>saga
>>>> hook line and sinker. one just must take a good look at the show 
>trials
>>>> where they do an all out effort to discredit anyone that is in their
>>>> way. Kurt Knoll.
>>>
>>>
>>>Every time someone asks you a question you will call them names, 
>> 
>> The chief name-callers on this newsgroup are the members of the local
>> holocaust� lobby.
>
>That's true. ben hebe cramer, kosher cuny and daniel bernard most 
>certainly are the chief name callers.

That hasn't been my observation here. Generally Ben and the others
respond to ad hominem attacks by McVey and consorts.
>
>Of course this has nothing to do with the general idiocy of kunt knoll.
>
>
> Anybody who expresses any doubt at all, even about
>> the most preposterous of the holocaust� stories, is immediately
>> shouted down as a new Hitler, a Nazi, a denier, or whatever else they
>> can dredge up to call people.
>
>Interesting assertion. You seem to have a general antipathy to responding 
>to criticism of your remarks. You also seem to have a very strong, one 
>would almost say racial, hatred of the Allies which you aren't adverse to 
>repeating.
>
>
>
>> 
>> I've seen this technique in use before, and I'm not impressed.
>
>No one is impressed by your groups use of this technique.
>
>
>
> Various
>> insane homophobes regularly use the same techniques by immediately
>> branding any gay person as a "child molestor", even though all the
>> available statistics say otherwise.
>
>
>What you aren't addressing is the proclivity of your group, when pressed 
>into a corner, to project their perversions on others.
>
>
>
>> The homophobic lobby is full of shit,
>
>Yet I do not recall ever seeing you telling this to cramer, kc or daniel 
>bernard when they bring it up. Do you have a problem telling them your 
>feelings?
>
> and so apparently is the holocaust� lobby. Both lobbies are
>> running on empty, and hence need to resort to rhetoric and
>> intimidation to keep their nonsense upright.
>
>
>Yes, your group has been on empty so long, it has lost track of its 
>position
>
>
>
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>>intimidate and knoll, but you never answer questions
>>>
>>>
>>>> 
>>>> "Ben Cramer"  wrote in message 
>>>> news:ad6dnf_hxpIQYc3UnZ2dnUVZ_o3inZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>>>
>>>>> "Toivo Kottarainen"  wrote in message 
>>>>> news:4950e1e3$0$4780$9b536df3@news.fv.fi...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Ben Cramer"  >
>>>>>>> "Toivo Kottarainen"  wrote in message 
>>>>>>> news:494fa495$0$4789$9b536df3@news.fv.fi...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Kurt Knoll" 
>>>>>>>>>I do not need one gord . While living in Nuremberg whe the show
>>>>>>>>>trial was on id did listening to it every day. What irks me the 
>most
>>>>>>>>>is when the accused wanted to give an explanatotion. The
>>>>>>>>>transmission was interrupted and we were allowed to the religious
>>>>>>>>>service of the local Synagogue. You must also remember it was the
>>>>>>>>>Germans who did pay for the rebuilding of the synagoe war time by
>>>>>>>>>the allied. 
>>>>>>>>> Kurt Knoll.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As a former Nuremberger, You may also be familiar with this:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> * The Nuremberg Laws were designed by Hitler to define the status 
>of
>>>>>>>> Jews in Germany and to restrict them in political and social life.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Which was a very clever move, given the yids had all but destroyed 
>>>>>>> Germany and had publicly stated that their goal was to finish the
>>>>>>> job. 
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> From this I understand that You are not a denier of The Holocaust 
>but
>>>>>> a justifier of it, belonging to the group B of revisionists.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Topi
>>>>>
>>>>> It's the yids who have declared me to be a denier sunschein, simply 
>>>>> because I don't swallow the entire story wholesale.
>>>>>
>>>>> Lay off the vodkkka.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>> 
>
>BTW, I thought you had plonked me. Yet another failure of your computer 
>skills?


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Dec 26 13:58:35 EST 2008
Article: 1974967 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: HOLOCAUST FAQ: Auschwitz-Birkenau: Layman's Guide (1/2)
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Wed, 24 Dec 2008 21:50:31 +0000 (UTC), "I'll Always Be 24/12/08"
 wrote:

>Johannes von Ebersdorf  wrote in
>news:vkb4l4lr0o5kdrhntguabqod9k1i8mru44@4ax.com: 
>
>> On Mon, 22 Dec 2008 16:30:42 +0200, "Toivo Kottarainen"
>>  wrote:
>> 
>>>
>>>"Kurt Knoll" 
>>>>I do not need one gord . While living in Nuremberg whe the show trial
>>>>was on id did listening to it every day. What irks me the most is when
>>>>the accused wanted to give an explanatotion. The transmission was
>>>>interrupted and we were allowed to the religious service of the local
>>>>Synagogue. You must also remember it was the Germans who did pay for
>>>>the rebuilding of the synagoe war time by the allied.
>>>> Kurt Knoll.
>>>>
>>>As a former Nuremberger, You may also be familiar with this:
>>>
>>>* The Nuremberg Laws were designed by Hitler to define the status of
>>>Jews in Germany and to restrict them in political and social life. In
>>>his drive for political power Hitler promoted a bitter anti-Semitic
>>>campaign and stirred up extreme hatred against the Jews. After becoming
>>>Chancellor, he encouraged his followers to assault and beat the Jews, to
>>>humiliate them by forcing them to clean the streets, to picet or close
>>>the Jewish businesses, and to denounce Jews in the professions as
>>>rogues, profoteers, and traitors. When accounts of Nazi atrocities were
>>>published abroad, a boycott of German goods was urged in retaliation.
>>>The result was disastrous for German Jews. Jewish businesses were
>>>boycotted, Jewish physicians excluded from hospitals, Jewish judges
>>>dismissed, and Jewish students thrown out of universities, Jews were 
>>>increasingly barred out from German life."The Jews can speak only
>>>Jewish. When he writes in German, he lies." From September to November
>>>1935 Hitler took steps to define the legal status of Jews in Germany.
>>>The Nuremberg laws withdrew German citizenship for persons of
>>>"non-German blood." * 
>>>
>>>Encyclopedia of the Third Reich by Louis L. Snyder
>>>
>>>Later on the Jews were fobidden to buy flowers, to walk on sidewalks, to
>>>travel on trams, to have pets, to marry an aryan, to own a car, to buy
>>>food from the same markets as the German volk. And later to buy food at
>>>all. They were ordered to wear yellow armbands with the Star of David
>>>sewn on it and their forenames changed to Israel or Sara in their ID
>>>papers. 
>>>
>>>This has been told us by Victor Klemperer in his diaries.  Ich will
>>>Zeugnis ableben bis zum Letzten. Tagebucher 1933-1945. 
>>>
>> Nobody disputes the antipathy
>
>Antipathy? Just love the way nils use semantic warping.

Learn to speak and write English. Antipathy is exactly the word. The
National Socialists disliked Jews.

Personally, I have no antipathy towards Jews. Thoughts about Jews
simply don't arise in my daily life, so you could call me indifferent
to Jews. None of that means that I need to buy into some of the
ridiculous holocaust� stories and the absurd German-bashing that seems
to go with it.

>
>
> of the National Socialists towards Jews.
>> The so-called Nuremberg Laws had the effect of encouraging Jews to
>> leave Germany, so that by 1939 only 200,000 of the original 500,000
>> remained resident in Germany.
>> 
>> What your tract does NOT do, is prove the traditional holocaust�
>> industry stories.
>> 


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Dec 26 13:58:36 EST 2008
Article: 1974969 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Leuchter's Lie
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Wed, 24 Dec 2008 18:56:30 +0000 (UTC), a-little-sanity,  please
 wrote:

>In article ,
>Johannes von Ebersdorf   wrote:
>
>> This is irrelevant. What is relevant is whether there were, or were
>> not, cyanide residues in the alleged homicidal gas chambers as would
>> be the expectation.
>
>A study of the cyanide compounds in the Auschwitz gas chambers:
>http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/chemistry/iffr/report.shtml

The concentrations are so low that the samples could easily have come
>from your typical outer wall of a school in Toronto.

In point of fact, since the structures involved were built post-WW2 to
match the stories of so-called "eye witness" reports to the kangaroo
courts in western Germany, one should reasonably expect essentially
background readings similar to those of a school wall in Toronto.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Dec 26 13:58:36 EST 2008
Article: 1974970 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Leuchter's Lie
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Thu, 25 Dec 2008 09:15:53 -0600, Topaz 
wrote:

>
>Here is part of the Leuchter Report:
>"Thirty-one samples were selectively removed from the alleged gas
>chambers at Kremas I, II, III, IV and V. A control sample was taken
>from delousing facility #1 at Birkenau. The control sample was removed
>from a delousing chamber in a location where cyanide was known to have
>been used and was apparently present as blue staining. Chemical
>testing of the control sample #32  showed a cyanide content of 1050
>mg/kg, a very heavy concentration. The conditions at areas from which
>these samples were taken are identical with those of the control
>sample, cold, dark, and wet. Only Kremas IV and V differed, in the
>respect  that these locations had sunlight (the buildings have been
>torn down) and sunlight may hasten the destruction of uncomplexed
>cyanide. The cyanide combines with the iron in the mortar and brick
>and becomes ferric-ferro-cyanide or prussian blue pigmentation, a very
>stable iron-cyanide complex. 
>"The locations from which the analyzed samples were removed are set
>out in Table III.
>"It is notable that almost all the samples were negative and that the
>few that were positive were very close to the detection level
>(1mg/kg); 6.7 mg/kg at Krema III; 7.9 mg/kg at Krerma I. The absense
>of any consequential readings at any of the tested locations as
>compared to the control sample reading 1050 mg/kg supports the
>evidence that these facilities were not execution gas chambers. The
>small quantities detected would indicate that at some point these
>buildings were deloused with Zyklon B - as were all the buildings at
>all these facilities"
>
>http://www.ihr.org/      http://www.natvan.com
>
>http://www.thebirdman.org     http://www.nsm88.org
>
>http://wsi.matriots.com/jews.html     

That sounds like a reasonable methodology. The only improvement would
have been to include readings from similar brick that was known never
to have been exposed to cyanide to determine the normal background
level of such compounds.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Dec 26 13:58:36 EST 2008
Article: 1974971 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Leuchter's Lie
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Thu, 25 Dec 2008 18:35:12 GMT, "Kurt Knoll" 
wrote:

>I know what you did is beyond of the capacity of your brain. Certainly 
>questioning and discredit the theme is the coal of the holocaust industries.

They cannot effectively counter his measurements, so they attack him
personally. They have done this countless times before with other
people.

>Kurt Knoll.
>
>"Tim Miller"  wrote in message 
>news:gj0a2t$5oh$1@news.motzarella.org...
>> Topaz wrote:
>>> Here is part of the Leuchter Report:
>>
>> Who cares? He was thoroughly discredited as just another
>> ignorant liar. 
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Dec 26 13:58:37 EST 2008
Article: 1974973 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Leuchter's Lie
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Wed, 24 Dec 2008 18:55:38 +0000 (UTC), a-little-sanity,  please
 wrote:

>In article <2ld4l49j0ahlkulinq2j8id864hpqgsggu@4ax.com>,
>Johannes von Ebersdorf   wrote:
>
>> Well, Patrick, did anybody else manage to find significant cyanide
>> residues in the so-called homicidal gas chambers? 
>
>A study of the cyanide compounds in the Auschwitz gas chambers:
>http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/chemistry/iffr/report.shtml

These guys are behind the times. The gassing story has long since
moved to two off-site farmhouses which are now conveniently torn down
so nobody will be able to say yay or nay to the question of was it
ever a gas chamber.



From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Dec 26 13:58:38 EST 2008
Article: 1974976 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Leuchter's Lie
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Wed, 24 Dec 2008 18:54:26 +0000 (UTC), a-little-sanity,  please
 wrote:

>In article ,
>Johannes von Ebersdorf   wrote:
>
>> It is the standard technique of the holocaust� lobby. Leuchter stated
>> that no cyanide residues were found in the alleged homocidial gas
>> chambers.
>
>That's not what he stated,  you stupid piece of shit.
>
>You don't even know what your fellow Nazis are claiming.

Fellow Nazis?  LOL

The Nazis were long gone by the time I was born, you ridiculous
jackass.

>
>The thought of you teaching children makes me want to vomit.  I
>hope that you're retired already?


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Dec 26 13:58:38 EST 2008
Article: 1974979 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What is 'Holocaust Denial'? That's so stupid but you must swallow it, buddy. That's the DOGMA's law.
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Wed, 24 Dec 2008 22:12:19 +0000 (UTC), "I'll Always Be 24/12/08"
 wrote:

>Johannes von Ebersdorf  wrote in 
>news:7ee4l4593m4idgrdq9csv48p33k6sslq6k@4ax.com:
>
>> On Mon, 22 Dec 2008 21:59:47 +0000 (UTC), "I'll Always Be 22/12/08"
>>  wrote:
>> 
>>>"Kurt Knoll"  wrote in news:G0S3l.44$z%.7@edtnps82:
>>>
>>>> What German historians do you mean ?
>>>
>>>
>>>You are not only lying, but doing so intentionally, because you know 
>full
>>>well that German historians of the Functionalist and Intentionalist
>>>schools have debated - and thus criticized - Holocaust historiography 
>for 
>>>decades.
>> 
>> The NS regime dismissed all the teachers of the previous regime, and
>> the post-war allied puppet regimes did much the same thing. Anybody
>> who wasn't 100% with the allied program was fired.
>> 
>> As a university professor in Germany, you pretty much have to follow
>> the party line or you can count on being fired or worse.
>> 
>> German academics are no longer a credible source for anything to do
>> with WW2 or the NS period.
>
>
>Yet here they are openly discussing and dissecting the holocaust.

They were limiting their discussions as to whether the events were
planned or ad hoc. Nobody dares to dispute any aspect of the claimed
events.

It is like Christians who spend years debating whether Christ was
divine or not. Nobody generally considers the possbility that no such
figure physically existed, since the only references to Christ are in
the New Testament.

There really is no holocaust� "discussion" worthy of the name until
such time as somebody actually verifies the "jumping buckets of flesh"
story or the crematoria belching multi-metre flames from the chimneys.
Both would require the suspension of the laws of physics and chemistry
at that time and place.



> And you 
>haven't even addressed any errors in there logic...a truly amazing 
>technique that you seem to thrive on.
>
>Would you care to provide us with your critique of Mommsen and Bracher so 
>we can see just what they are doing that isn't up to snuff?
>
>
>> 
>>>
>>>See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functionalism_versus_intentionalism for
>>>details. 
>>>
>>>Historians like Hans Mommsen, a member of the Social Democratic Party of
>>>Germany who has taught at Tuebingen and Bochum, Martin Broszat (Cologne,
>>>and the IFZ, Munich), Andreas Hillgruber (d. 1989, having taught at
>>>Marburg, Freiburg and Cologne)... 
>>>
>>>Karl Bracher (Berlin, Bonn - Wikipedia says, "Bracher has often 
>>>CRITICIZED the functionist-structuralist interpretation of the Third 
>>>Reich championed by such scholars such as Martin Broszat and Hans 
>>>Mommsen, and decried their view of Hitler as a 'weak dictator'. In
>>>Bracher's view, Hitler was the  'Master of the Third Reich'. With 
>respect
>>>to the genesis of the Holocaust, he is a confirmed Intentionalist. It is
>>>his position that the entire project of the genocide of European Jewry
>>>resulted from Adolf Hitler's anti-Semitic hatred."), Klaus Hildebrand
>>>(Bonn)... 
>>>
>>>Eberhard Jaeckel (Stuttgart - Wikipedia says, "J�ckel is one of  the
>>>leading Intentionalists in regard to the Functionalism versus
>>>Intentionalism debate, arguing from the 1960s on that there was a long 
>>>range plan on the part of Hitler to exterminate the Jewish people from 
>>>about 1924 on, views that led to INTENSE DEBATES with Functionalist 
>>>historians such as Hans Mommsen and Martin Broszat.Recently, J�ckel has 
>>>modified his position. He now believes that most of the initiatives for 
>>>the Holocaust came from Hitler, though it was more the result of a 
>series 
>>>of ad hoc decisions rather a masterplan on the part of Hitler. In the 
>>>Historikerstreit (Historians' Dispute) of the 1986- 1988, J�ckel was a 
>>>prominent critic of Ernst Nolte, whose theory of Nazi crimes as a 
>reaction 
>>>to Soviet crimes was denounced as ahistorical by J�ckel under the 
>grounds  
>>>that Hitler held the Soviet Union in contempt and therefore could
>>>not have possibly felt threatened by the Soviets as Nolte 
>suggested.")... 
>>>
>>>
>>> the once who are political correct.
>>>
>>>Interesting. Can you provide the original documents?
>>>
>>>
>>> 
>>>> Because if the are not they would be out of a jop.
>>>
>>>
>>>You are not only lying, but doing so intentionally, because you know 
>full
>>>well that German historians of the Functionalist and Intentionalist
>>>schools have debated - and thus criticized - Holocaust historiography 
>for 
>>>decades.
>>>
>>>See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functionalism_versus_intentionalism for
>>>details. 
>>>
>>>Historians like Hans Mommsen, a member of the Social Democratic Party of
>>>Germany who has taught at Tuebingen and Bochum, Martin Broszat (Cologne,
>>>and the IFZ, Munich), Andreas Hillgruber (d. 1989, having taught at
>>>Marburg, Freiburg and Cologne)... 
>>>
>>>Karl Bracher (Berlin, Bonn - Wikipedia says, "Bracher has often 
>>>CRITICIZED the functionist-structuralist interpretation of the Third 
>>>Reich championed by such scholars such as Martin Broszat and Hans 
>>>Mommsen, and decried their view of Hitler as a 'weak dictator'. In
>>>Bracher's view, Hitler was the  'Master of the Third Reich'. With 
>respect
>>>to the genesis of the Holocaust, he is a confirmed Intentionalist. It is
>>>his position that the entire project of the genocide of European Jewry
>>>resulted from Adolf Hitler's anti-Semitic hatred."), Klaus Hildebrand
>>>(Bonn)... 
>>>
>>>Eberhard Jaeckel (Stuttgart - Wikipedia says, "J�ckel is one of  the
>>>leading Intentionalists in regard to the Functionalism versus
>>>Intentionalism debate, arguing from the 1960s on that there was a long 
>>>range plan on the part of Hitler to exterminate the Jewish people from 
>>>about 1924 on, views that led to INTENSE DEBATES with Functionalist 
>>>historians such as Hans Mommsen and Martin Broszat.Recently, J�ckel has 
>>>modified his position. He now believes that most of the initiatives for 
>>>the Holocaust came from Hitler, though it was more the result of a 
>series 
>>>of ad hoc decisions rather a masterplan on the part of Hitler. In the 
>>>Historikerstreit (Historians' Dispute) of the 1986- 1988, J�ckel was a 
>>>prominent critic of Ernst Nolte, whose theory of Nazi crimes as a 
>reaction 
>>>to Soviet crimes was denounced as ahistorical by J�ckel under the 
>grounds  
>>>that Hitler held the Soviet Union in contempt and therefore could
>>>not have possibly felt threatened by the Soviets as Nolte 
>suggested.")... 
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Kurt Knoll.
>>>> 
>>>> "I'll Always Be 21/12/08"  wrote in 
>message 
>>>> news:Xns9B7B886D0494CTheonlyonethatcares@87.106.137.111...
>>>>> "Kurt Knoll"  wrote in news:R3v3l.1898$sM.58
>>>@edtnps83:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Makes on wonder why the Jews do not want anyone to question the
>>>>>> holocaust. The message is clear thy know the holocaust saga has many
>>>>>> many wholes. And this is why they do not tolerate any open 
>discussions
>>>>>> because there is too much at stake here.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> You are not only lying, but doing so intentionally, because you know 
>>>full
>>>>> well that German historians of the Functionalist and Intentionalist
>>>>> schools have debated - and thus criticized - Holocaust historiography 
>>>for
>>>>> decades.
>>>>>
>>>>> See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functionalism_versus_intentionalism 
>>>for
>>>>> details.
>>>>>
>>>>> Historians like Hans Mommsen, a member of the Social Democratic Party 
>>>of
>>>>> Germany who has taught at Tuebingen and Bochum, Martin Broszat 
>>>(Cologne,
>>>>> and the IFZ, Munich), Andreas Hillgruber (d. 1989, having taught at
>>>>> Marburg, Freiburg and Cologne)...
>>>>>
>>>>> Karl Bracher (Berlin, Bonn - Wikipedia says, "Bracher has often
>>>>> CRITICIZED the functionist-structuralist interpretation of the Third
>>>>> Reich championed by such scholars such as Martin Broszat and Hans
>>>>> Mommsen, and decried their view of Hitler as a 'weak dictator'. In
>>>>> Bracher's view, Hitler was the  'Master of the Third Reich'. With 
>>>respect
>>>>> to the genesis of the Holocaust, he is a confirmed Intentionalist. It 
>>>is
>>>>> his position that the entire project of the genocide of European 
>Jewry
>>>>> resulted from Adolf Hitler's anti-Semitic hatred."), Klaus Hildebrand
>>>>> (Bonn)...
>>>>>
>>>>> Eberhard Jaeckel (Stuttgart - Wikipedia says, "J�ckel is one of  the
>>>>> leading Intentionalists in regard to the Functionalism versus
>>>>> Intentionalism debate, arguing from the 1960s on that there was a 
>long
>>>>> range plan on the part of Hitler to exterminate the Jewish people 
>from
>>>>> about 1924 on, views that led to INTENSE DEBATES with Functionalist
>>>>> historians such as Hans Mommsen and Martin Broszat.Recently, J�ckel 
>has
>>>>> modified his position. He now believes that most of the initiatives 
>for
>>>>> the Holocaust came from Hitler, though it was more the result of a 
>>>series
>>>>> of ad hoc decisions rather a masterplan on the part of Hitler. In the
>>>>> Historikerstreit (Historians' Dispute) of the 1986- 1988, J�ckel was 
>a
>>>>> prominent critic of Ernst Nolte, whose theory of Nazi crimes as a 
>>>reaction
>>>>> to Soviet crimes was denounced as ahistorical by J�ckel under the 
>>>grounds
>>>>> that Hitler held the Soviet Union in contempt and therefore could
>>>>> not have possibly felt threatened by the Soviets as Nolte 
>>>suggested.")...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I myself when I get hinters
>>>>>> from asking questions make me more curious.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Strange. When we ask you questions, we get no answers. Why do you not
>>>>> tolerate open discussions?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Kurt Knoll.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Bent Attorney"  wrote in message
>>>>>> news:2bb8bf5c-52d9-492d-9987-
>>>d94a1c276cda@w7g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
>>>>>>> Phil 'Phil 'er up' Matthews has complained that I stray from the 
>>>topic
>>>>>>> of the thread.  So I offer you a solid definition of holocaust 
>>>denial.
>>>>>>> Holocaust denial comes in many forms.  Some denial stems from
>>>>>>> particular hatred of a certain cultural group.  A few examples are 
>in
>>>>>>> order of course.  Other denials of holocausts stem from the
>>>>>>> realization that many have, that the media is controlled by
>>>>>>> Zionists(not necessarily always Jews) and therefore one sided in 
>its
>>>>>>> 'reporting.'
>>>>>>> There are those that deny the existence of the Eisenhower death
>>>>>>> POW(funny how they changed that designation to DEF)camps(quite a
>>>>>>> massive holocaust wouldn't you agree) in Europe.  Evidence has been
>>>>>>> presented verifying the existence of these camps, but has been 
>denied
>>>>>>> by the Zionist controlled deniers.
>>>>>>> There have been many holocausts(actual burning of individuals with
>>>>>>> fire)in the German and Japanese cities during WWII, but these have
>>>>>>> been deemed necessary and that those who were on the receiving end 
>of
>>>>>>> this holocaust deserved what they got.  Ken McVay the fighter of 
>the
>>>>>>> spread of hate on the internet has stated this his very royal self.
>>>>>>> McVay himself has stated that denying of the Jewish holocaust 
>offends
>>>>>>> his sense of humanity.  Sadly this broken man has no sense of 
>>>humanity
>>>>>>> when it comes to innocents caught up in wars.  Wait.  Doesn't this
>>>>>>> statement contradict what this McVay character is all about?
>>>>>>> Well; yeah.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>> 


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Dec 26 13:58:38 EST 2008
Article: 1974980 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: holocaust deniers logic. What tells the DOGMA. 900 workers and a lot of jobs.
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2008 07:38:33 -0500
Bytes: 6595
Xref: number1.nntp.dca.giganews.com alt.revisionism:1974980

On Thu, 25 Dec 2008 20:51:43 +0000 (UTC), "I'll Always Be 25/12/08"
 wrote:

>"Kurt Knoll"  wrote in
>news:SkS4l.829$%v1.431@edtnps83: 
>
>> You are definitely not kosher and we all know it what is there to
>> discuss her and listening to your twisted snake approach. Why is it then
>> you use scare tactics to silence others.
>
>
>Interesting. What scare tactics do I use? Who have I silenced? Why do you 
>refuse to answer questions? Why do you deny me my freedom of speech?

Kurt isn't locking you up for your statements, so it isn't Kurt who
curtails freedom of speech. It is the holocaust� industry that stifles
discussion by threatening to imprison people who don't pay lip service
to their stories.

>
>
>> Kurt Knoll.
>> 
>> "I'll Always Be 25/12/08"  wrote in message
>> news:Xns9B7F81806730DTheonlyonethatcares@87.106.137.111...
>>> "Kurt Knoll"  wrote in
>>> news:e8Q4l.763$%v1.245@edtnps83:
>>>
>>>> Watch them calling you a holocaust denier now. Everyone has to agree
>>>> with then and this is the rule the once who do not are considered
>>>> holocaust denier..
>>>
>>> Yes, zundel, stolz, duke, irving, leuchter, knoll and toeben will make
>>> an issue of everyone who seeks the truth
>>>
>>>
>>> What wonders me most how they can get away with it.
>>>> This is the year 2008 and not the dark ages. The day will come when
>>>> humans a fighting back. Freedom of speech is a basic human right and
>>>> not a mockery the Jews make out of it.
>>>
>>>
>>> Kunt knoll believes in freedom of speech...except for anyone else. Why
>>> does he refuse to answer questions if he believes in freedom of speech?
>>> What are you hiding?
>>>
>>>
>>>> Kurt Knoll
>>>>
>>>> "Zulu"  wrote in message
>>>> news:gj0fog$r8d$3@news.motzarella.org...
>>>>> a-little-sanity escribi�:
>>>>>> In article , Zulu 
>>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> a-little-sanity escribi�:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But why were *900* workers required to burn corpses?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We have to go further in details. We see on page 3 the lines 57-B
>>>>>>> to 61-B the
>>>>>>> distribution of workers in day & night teams.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If we take only day turn that means a distribution of workers as
>>>>>>> following
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Krema II -> 109
>>>>>>> Krema III-> 110
>>>>>>> Krema IV -> 109
>>>>>>> Krema  V -> 109
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Now, at each Krema you have to distribute those numbers in order to
>>>>>>> place a maximum of 110 workers at their different posts according
>>>>>>> to the specific task they had to perform:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> According with the plan of Krema II, we could list the tasks as
>>>>>>> following
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 1 - to collect and bring corpses to the morgues from different
>>>>>>> locations of the camp,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Actually no,  they had a different unit for that. 
>>>>>> "Leichenkommando", which is listed separately.
>>>>>
>>>>> Working at the "Leinchenkeller" maybe?
>>>>> A proof that the morgues were actually morgues?
>>>>>
>>>>> Or, what is worst for the holoks, you point here a documentary proof
>>>>> that the
>>>>> "sonderkommandos� were not the only men working on the "secret
>>>>> operations"...
>>>>> Beside the "secret gambit", one more FACT which proves that they are
>>>>> LIARS?
>>>>>
>>>>> Anyway, thanks for that judicious remark.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2 - to dispose corpses at the morgues,
>>>>>>> 3 - to undress corpses, to pick up clothes, shoes and documents.
>>>>>>> 4 - to cut hair
>>>>>>> 5 - to gather hair and bring it to a central deposit.
>>>>>>> 6 - to take clothes and shoes to Kanada.
>>>>>>> 7 - to bring documents to the incinerator (close to the chimney).
>>>>>>> 8 - to perform incineration of documents.
>>>>>>> 9 - to pick up the gold teeth
>>>>>>> 10 - to melt gold and bring bars to the safe box
>>>>>>> 11 - to transport corpses from morgues to ovens,
>>>>>>> 12 - to transport coke from the main storage to the furnaces' room
>>>>>>> and incinerator room
>>>>>>> 13 - to work at the furnaces (loading corpses, loading coke,
>>>>>>> removing bones, removing ashes...)
>>>>>>> 14 - to make some diverse cleanness and maintenance tasks.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Most of the tasks you list are absolutely trivial and could be
>>>>>> handled by one or two people (e.g. "to bring documents to the
>>>>>> incinerator", "to perform incineration of documents"). So,  how many
>>>>>> corpses do you think these 900 workers could dispose of during 24
>>>>>> hours? 
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, That incinerator needed some people to be managed, no?
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, first we have to state with certainty whether the work was
>>>>> actually 24 h long
>>>>> and not 2 x 8 h as usual at the camps...
>>>>>
>>>>> I repeat: under a technical point of view, the ONLY valuable data
>>>>> which could
>>>>> authorize a pertinent approximation of the actual activity of the
>>>>> ovens is the
>>>>> coke/wood consumption observed at Auschwitz-Birkenau since March 1943
>>>>> to the end.
>>>>> No combustible, nothing burns.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>>
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