Archive/File: holocaust/usa/codoh rv.0195
Last-Modified: 1995/03/01

From: hmazal@aol.com (HMazal)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: To HMazal@aol.com re David Cole
Date: 2 Jan 1995 21:40:36 -0500
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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Reply-To: hmazal@aol.com (HMazal)

Mr. Vicksell, referring to the disappearance of a considerable portion of
an "interview" with Dr. Piper states:

>The rest may have been very dull.  Who knows.

Duller than the published video film?  Impossible.

and, in response to my complaint about their lie in advertising the film,

>So they said they're sorry, already.  Why make such a big deal of it?

Why not? Lies are lies.

Send for the full text of the letter by Dr. Piper, Mr. Vicksell, and
convince yourself of their duplicity.

Harry W. Mazal in San Antonio, Texas



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From: hmazal@aol.com (HMazal)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: To HMazal@aol.com re David Cole
Date: 2 Jan 1995 21:45:19 -0500
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Mr. Vicksell states:

>In the course of having lunch with Mark, the agent allegedly got Mark to
say how >dissatisfied he was with his job at the IHR and how he would be
only too willing >to move on to greener pastures if the opportunity were
presented to him.

We were discussing editing, weren't we? I don't see any sign of editing in
the conversation between the 'agent' and Mark...

Harry W. Mazal in San Antonio, Texas


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Article: 20873 of alt.revisionism
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Fred Leuchter (was Re: Revisionist answers)
Message-ID: 
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This is an excerpt from a speech Fred gave at the 1992 IHR conference.  
I got it from Greg's www site.  All I've left out is Fred's account of 
his English misadventures, which has little relevance to the topic under 
discussion.

In a day or two I'll post a summary of what Kirk Lyons told me about Fred's 
troubles with the prison officials.

                       Ross Vicksell
________________________________________________________________________

    IS THERE LIFE AFTER PERSECUTION? THE BOTCHED EXECUTION OF FRED LEUCHTER
                                       
   (Presented at the Eleventh IHR Conference, October 1992)
   
   by Fred A. Leuchter, Jr.
   
   Many of you, I am sure, know who I am, where I've been, and what I've
   done. Today I'm here to tell you what has happened to me since I
   addressed the Tenth International Revisionist Conference in
   Washington, DC, in October 1990.
   
   One of my jobs as an engineer of execution technology has been to
   "post mortem" executions from a technical standpoint, that is, to
   determine if anything went wrong and, if so, to determine just how the
   execution was botched. This normally entails reviewing eyewitness
   accounts of how the executees were tortured, mutilated, or otherwise
   dehumanized in society's name.
   
   I will do that here today, except that, in this case, it is myself
   that I post mortem -- and the cadaver isn't dead! Much to the dismay
   of my executioners, the execution was so badly botched that I am able
   to stand here before you to speak the truth, and to tell the world
   that it is not myself, but the Holocaust story that is dead. I repeat
   for the record: I was condemned for maintaining that there were no
   execution gas chambers at Auschwitz, Birkenau, Majdanek, Dachau,
   Mauthausen, or Hartheim Castle. There's no proof for the charge, only
   innuendo, lies, and half-truths. Robert Faurisson, Ernst Zuendel and
   others said this first. They, too, live as victims of botched
   executions, but nevertheless free to speak the truth in a strong and
   growing voice that repeats: No gas chambers, no gas chambers, no damn
   gas chambers!
   
   This address, then, is not a post mortem on my cadaver but rather a
   post mortem by my cadaver.
   
   As you know, I was sent to Poland in 1988 by and for Mr. Ernst Zuendel
   to investigate the alleged execution gas chamber facilities at the
   three concentration camps of Auschwitz, Birkenau, and Majdanek. I was
   chosen for this task from a field of experts numbering one, and
   recommended by those states in the USA where lethal gas chambers are
   used to execute convicted criminals. My forensic analysis and
   subsequent report prove beyond any shadow of a doubt that there were
   no gas execution facilities operated by the Nazis at these sites. I
   also entered these findings (which are also detailed in my published
   report) into the court record in sworn testimony in Toronto as a
   court-qualified expert.
   
   Because I was somewhat naive at the time, I was not aware that by so
   testifying I was offending the organized world Jewish community. By
   providing final, definitive proof that there were no execution gas
   chamber utilized for genocidal purposes by the Germans at these
   wartime camps, I established the simple fact that the Holocaust story
   is not true. What I did not know was that anyone expressing such
   beliefs is guilty of a capital crime: that of thinking and telling the
   unspeakable truth about the greatest lie of the age.
   
   I would have to pay for this crime. While I innocently told the truth
   in Toronto, plans were made, and subsequently implemented, for a major
   effort to destroy me. If I could be destroyed and discredited -- so
   the reasoning went -- no one would accept my professional findings, no
   matter how truthful.
   
Overview

   Since April 1988, when I testified in the second Zuendel trial in
   Toronto about my inspection of the alleged gas chambers in Poland, my
   life has been turned upside down.
   
   I have been vilified both privately and publicly in all forms of the
   media. My clients have been cajoled and threatened into not dealing
   with me. High-level law enforcement officials, acting for personal
   reasons, have lied about me and have prevented clients from dealing
   with me. My person and reputation have been defiled by lies and
   innuendo. My family and I have been repeatedly threatened.
   
   Behind this campaign to punish me and suppress the truth about the gas
   chambers, have been several Jewish organizations, which have publicly
   vowed to silence me by destroying my ability to make a living.
   
   At the forefront of this effort has been Beate Klarsfeld of the
   Paris-based Klarsfeld Foundation. In the United States, the campaign
   has been orchestrated through the US-based "Holocaust Survivors and
   Friends in Pursuit of Justice." Associated with these two
   organizations have been the Anti-Defamation League of the B'nai B'rith
   and the Jewish Defense League.
   
   At Klarsfeld's initiative, these groups first carried out an extensive
   one year investigation. After they were unable to turn up any
   impropriety or wrongdoing on my part, they began to threaten prison
   wardens with political consequences if they dealt with me. This first
   came to light when the ABC television news program, "Prime Time,"
   decided to do a network television piece on myself and my work. This
   involved filming at various prisons. Prison wardens advised the "Prime
   Time" personnel of the threats and problems that resulted from my
   presence at the prisons for the filming. ABC news was told not to air
   the program. It refused to succumb to the pressure, and consequently
   suffered vilification by the organizations involved.
   
   To sum up here, this campaign has consisted of the following:
   
    1. Threats against prison officials who dealt with me.
    2. False and slanderous vilification through private channels, as
       well as publicly in newspapers and magazines.
    3. Legislation to prevent me from working at my profession.
    4. Criminal prosecution for working at my profession.
    5. Lies by public officials spread both officially and privately.
    6. Restriction of my personal freedom and right to travel by
       effecting my illegal arrest and imprisonment in England, from
       where I was finally deported.
    7. Interference with my right as an American citizen to help and
       protection from the US State Department, which refused to assist
       me during my illegal imprisonment in England.
       
   As a result of this campaign, my livelihood has been destroyed, and my
   career has been ruined. All this for telling the truth under oath.
   
   The organizations cited above also interfered with the execution in
   Illinois of a certain Mr. Walker by threatening to pass legislation to
   prevent that state from allowing me to complete an ongoing contract.
   As a result, Director McGinnis ultimately yielded to this pressure and
   proceeded with the execution using equipment known to be defective.
   Under pressure from these groups, and through the efforts of Alabama
   Deputy Attorney General, Ed Carnes, the State of Alabama did not
   purchase a new electric chair. Carnes wrote a lying memorandum to all
   Departments of Corrections around the United States claiming that I
   was dangerous and held unorthodox views on execution. He caused the
   State to breach its contract. According to his office, this means I
   support only humane and painless executions. Carnes actually lied to
   me to get me to testify that a prior execution was humane.
   
   As a direct result of interference by these groups, at least one man
   was tortured to death in Virginia. Purchasing agents and wardens have
   been mendaciously told that my equipment failed during an execution,
   which is not true. It has never failed. Delaware Deputy Attorney
   General Silverman breached my contract, which was already underway,
   because I wrote the Zuendel trial Leuchter Report. This contract was
   for maintenance on their lethal injection machine and gallows,
   previously fabricated by me, and for training of their execution
   personnel. Delaware has refused to pay me for the work I completed,
   and has instructed me to keep the control module of their lethal
   injection machine. However, the protocol I wrote for execution by
   hanging was submitted by them and approved by the court system. In
   Massachusetts, legislation specifically designed to put me out of
   business has been filed for four years running.
   
   Finally, and also at the insistence of these same Jewish groups, a
   spurious criminal complaint was filed against me in the Massachusetts
   court system with the intent of destroying my reputation by putting me
   in prison for three months.
   
   I was charged with practicing as an engineer without a license. In
   point of fact, a license is not required in Massachusetts, or any
   other state, unless the engineer is involved in construction of
   buildings, and is certifying compliance with specifications. There is
   also a statutory exemption for engineers who do not deal with the
   general public.
   
   As confirmation of the spurious nature of this charge, it should be
   pointed out there are more than fifty thousand practicing engineers in
   Massachusetts, of whom only five thousand are licensed. Although the
   state's licensing law has been in effect since 1940, there has been no
   record of any prosecution for this offense.
   
   The charge was improperly brought. Nevertheless, if it had been
   successful, and I had been convicted, I would have been imprisoned for
   three months.
   
   The Massachusetts state Engineering Board, under pressure from
   Klarsfeld and her "Holocaust Survivors and Friends in Pursuit of
   Justice," filed this criminal complaint in Middlesex County. The name
   of the complainant was denied me, and was not made available until the
   matter was brought before the court. Before the complaint was issued,
   and several times thereafter, I was given the chance to recant in
   return for non-issuance or dismissal of the complaint. I also would
   have been obliged to give up my profession, in order to discredit my
   Report. I refused, and responded to the Board's threat with a denial
   that any law had been violated. The original clerk magistrate who
   issued the complaint apologized for bowing to Jewish pressure in
   prosecuting me under a statute that was being mis-applied. A
   representative of the ADL tried to force her testimony on the hearing,
   but was denied access because she had no evidence to offer that was
   pertinent to the matter. The District Court judge, in an excellent
   imitation of Pontius Pilate, summarily dismissed our motions for
   dismissal, allowed my court-appointed attorney to withdraw, and
   instructed Kirk Lyons, Director of the Cause Foundation and my
   out-of-state attorney, to re-file our motions for dismissal, because
   they all had merit. After it became clear that there would be no
   justice for us in the Malden District Court, we moved the case to
   Superior Court for a jury trial.
   
   With this charge hanging over my head, it was impossible for me to
   consult, supply equipment, or even act as an expert witness in
   American courts, as I had often done.
   
   The district attorney's office, under heavy pressure from various
   Jewish organizations, selected its best prosecuting attorney to handle
   my case. In the belief that he would be the person most likely to
   bring about a conviction, he was pulled from a murder trial. In June,
   just prior to the trial, our motions for dismissal were heard. The
   judge, also under heavy pressure from Jewish groups, told the district
   attorney that this case was not properly a criminal matter, and
   strongly suggested that the case be resolved short of a trial. With
   the ever-present possibility of conviction and jail (faced by most
   political prisoners) we negotiated a settlement.
   
   A very special consent agreement was signed [on June 11, 1991] that
   made legal history in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. The agreement
   was not a promise by the defendant to the court, as is normally the
   case, but an agreement between the State Engineering Board and myself.
   The board which, on two previous occasions, had refused to accept my
   application for registration because they do not register people who
   practice my discipline, was required to become a party to the
   agreement. [For more on this agreement, see the IHR Newsletter,
   July-August 1991, p. 3.]
   
   The consent agreement requires the board to accept my application and
   process it with "due diligence." Until the application is approved, or
   until two years are up, I have agreed not to use the title "engineer"
   or issue an engineering opinion in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts.
   This is, in effect, a temporary gag order imposed to satisfy the
   interested Jewish groups.
   
   By removing the case from consideration by criminal courts, the
   possibility of my imprisonment has been eliminated. If the Engineering
   Board fails to process and issue a license to me within a reasonable
   period, and in due course, the matter should then move to the civil
   courts. Attorney Lyons is presently preparing the necessary
   application. However, a new problem has arisen. All applications must
   be accompanied by the recommendations of three state-licensed
   engineers, but none is willing to risk the wrath of the Jews in my
   behalf.
   
   The de facto gag order, imposed by the settlement, applies only within
   the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, and I am free to pursue my
   profession anywhere else.
   
   Most of the execution equipment in the United States is either worn
   out, obsolete, or improperly fabricated, and is in need of repair or
   replacement. I am the only person who does this work, and states are
   being denied the right to deal with me. Although wardens and
   commissioners are afraid to even speak with me, they often do so
   anyway through intermediaries. One state has a leaking gas chamber,
   but will use it, endangering the lives of guards and witnesses, rather
   than risk discovery in dealing with me. How many more inmates will be
   tortured, or lives lost, through the callous interference of these
   Jewish groups?
   
   Owing to the successful conspiracy of these Jewish groups, I am
   completely out of business, unable to find work to feed my family. In
   spite of everything, though, I am still here, and I am still telling
   the truth. Furthermore, I intend to continue to tell the truth. If the
   organized Jewish community wants to stop me, it will have to try much
   harder.
   
   Moreover, attempts to discredit the Leuchter Report have failed, most
   notably with Pressac's inept analysis. Since the release of the
   Leuchter Report [in 1988], independent evidence has shown that the six
   million death figure has been grossly exaggerated, and an
   investigation by the Polish state forensic institute [among others]
   has corroborated that no gas was utilized in the alleged execution
   chambers at Auschwitz.

   [Account of Fred's brief stay in an English gaol omitted here.]
   
Conclusion

   Unfortunately, my clients -- the state governments -- are still
   intimidated by my Jewish persecutors. This continues to deprive me of
   my income, and it is not at all clear whether this will ever end.
   
   I have been unable to apply for my state engineering license because
   no engineers have been willing to sign papers recommending me (which
   is a requirement), out of fear of retaliation. Without some official
   change in my status, such as a license, even the friendly state
   governments are afraid to deal with me. The major lawsuit we had
   planned against my persecutors is stalled, perhaps permanently,
   because of a lack of funds.
   
   And, although my findings will ultimately be accepted by all, I still
   have no contracts, have been unable to find work and have no income.
   It does not seem that this will improve in the near future.
     _________________________________________________________________


From oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!juno.xana.bc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!vanbc.wimsey.com!scipio.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!cat.cis.Brown.EDU!dzk Tue Jan  3 18:46:37 PST 1995
Article: 20876 of alt.revisionism
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Fred Leuchter (was Re: Revisionist answers)
Date: 3 Jan 1995 08:16:22 GMT
Organization: Brown University
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    The "Leuchter report": put up or shut up, Vicksell
    --------------------------------------------------

Long and detailed refutations of the "Leuchter report" - the 
report written by this "engineer" (whose only degree is 
a BA in the humanities), regarding the Auschwitz gas 
chambers - were posted here, and are periodically posted
by Ken McVay.

The "report" is a piece of pseudo-scientific rubbish. The
arguments Leuchter makes are ridiculous. Part of my job is
to review papers submitted to scientific journals and
conferences. I can say with certainty that, although I've seen 
bad papers here and there, I've never seen such a collection
of errors, self-contradictions, and incredibly stupid
statements such as the "Leuchter report".

Now, if our "revisionist scholars", like Vicksell, believe
otherwise - well, they should be able to prove it. All they
have to do is state what they believe are the strong points
in the report, and explain why they are correct. 


-Danny Keren.




From oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!juno.xana.bc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!vanbc.wimsey.com!scipio.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!gatech!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!news.bu.edu!simon1 Wed Jan  4 05:28:35 PST 1995
Article: 20898 of alt.revisionism
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From: simon1@bu.edu (Simon Streltsov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Fred Leuchter (was Re: Revisionist answers)
Date: 3 Jan 1995 18:33:38 GMT
Organization: Boston University
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Danny Keren (dzk@cs.brown.edu) wrote:

: The "report" is a piece of pseudo-scientific rubbish. The
: arguments Leuchter makes are ridiculous. 

Danny, 

the post you are answering does not add anything to the
"report" itself - FL is saying about the ways Jewish community
attacks him - so, your answer is not really addressing the issue.


Simcha Streltsov, _Former_  Adar Rabbi of S.C.Soviet
-------------------------
please, only Kosher lePesach homentashen
all others will be returned unopened.

p.s. This sig expired, but nobody have sent me real
     homentashen anyway





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Article: 20912 of alt.revisionism
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Fred Leuchter (was Re: Revisionist answers)
In-Reply-To: simon1@bu.edu's message of 3 Jan 1995 18:33:38 GMT
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
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References: 
	
	 <3eb14m$dk7@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
	<3ec5a2$r6m@news.bu.edu>
Date: Tue, 3 Jan 1995 22:36:32 GMT
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From: simon1@bu.edu (Simon Streltsov)
>the post you are answering does not add anything to the
>"report" itself - FL is saying about the ways Jewish community
>attacks him - so, your answer is not really addressing the issue.

And what in that posting leads you to believe that there is any
"jewish community" attacking Leuchter?

Ya know, these people are crazy as bedbugs and if they get a parking
ticket for not putting a nickel in the meter they start hooting and
hollering that the jewish community is in control of the meter maids
and persecuting them.

How come Leuchter's remarks are completely bereft of any evidence for
his claims? He just conjures up some sort of world-wide jewish
conspiracy out to get him, describes his misadventures, and blames it
all on "them". Who the hell is them? Why can't he be specific if he's
so sure of this?

I'll tell you way, because it's just bullshit, that's why.

So why should anyone address any of this seriously (other than to
point out its absurdity)?

It's the oldest anti-semitic trick in the book, the world-wide jewish
conspiracy with a death-grip over everything. So we have to assume
this world-wide jewish conspiracy also has a death-grip on all the
courts in the US? How do they do all these things? Must be quite a
group!

Ok, here's the first question for these nut-cases:

	What is the phone number and mailing address of this
	well-organized and invincible international jewish
	conspiracy Leuchter keeps referring to?

Simple and fair question, no? Certainly anything so organized and
capable of trampling all these people into the ground, with complete
control of the entire court system in the US etc, MUST HAVE A PHONE
NUMBER AND AN ADDRESS!

Listen to the silence...

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


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From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Fred Leuchter (was Re: Revisionist answers)
Date: 3 Jan 1995 18:20:26 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
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In article ,
Ross Vicksell  wrote:
>This is an excerpt from a speech Fred gave at the 1992 IHR conference.  
>I got it from Greg's www site.  All I've left out is Fred's account of 
>his English misadventures, which has little relevance to the topic under 
>discussion.
>
>[Leuchter speech omitted]

    Given Leuchter's obvious fantasizing regarding his incontrovertible
proof that there were no gas chambers (e.g., he says that an intact
chamber at Majdanek is stained with prussian blue, yet says it was
technically defective for use with cyanide despite the physical evidence
that cyanide was used there), I take his assertions about the legal
situation with a giant economy size box of Morton's salt.

    However, if what he says about selective and malicious prosecution is
true, the ACLU should be interested in his case.  I suspect Alan
Dershowitz would be willing to take it as a free speech issue - I believe
he was the one who defended the right of the Nazis to march in Skokie. 
Has Leuchter contacted them?  If not, why not?

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: The Provocations Multiply
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
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Date: Wed, 4 Jan 1995 00:15:20 GMT
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Ms. Pease, I'm curious about whether you accept the official version of 
the Kennedy assassination, i.e. Oswald alone and his magic bullet?

                    Ross Vicksell


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Article: 20924 of alt.revisionism
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: The Provocations Multiply
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Date: Wed, 4 Jan 1995 00:28:42 GMT
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 - Or is it David Morgan talking? (It's sort of hard to unravel 
who's saying what.)


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Article: 20930 of alt.revisionism
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Provocations Multiply
Date: 3 Jan 1995 22:23 MST
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In article , codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) writes...
>Ms. Pease, I'm curious about whether you accept the official version of 
>the Kennedy assassination, i.e. Oswald alone and his magic bullet?

    Interesting question to ask her, Ross.  I hope she chooses to answer.

    Personally, I have been an assassination buff since I was about eight
    or so.  I read most everything written on the subject thru 1974 and
    then let my reading lag a bit reading only Lifton and some of Posner
    (and probably a few less notables I have long since forgotton.)

    For almost three decades I was convinced that Oswald did not act alone
    and that there had to have been some sort of conspiracy.  I rejected
    much of the evidence of the conspiracists as unsubstantiated lunacy,
    but I nevertheless found sufficient ballistic evidence to convince me
    that Oswald could not have acted alone.

    Posner's book came out last year and while I have some serious problems
    with the way he dealt with testimonial evidence, his revisionist (dare
    I use the word) interpretation of the Zapruder film is enlightening.  I
    can now see how the ballistic evidence fits together for Oswald to have
    acted alone.  There are several other loose ends, but I can believe the
    point of view that maybe Oswald did do it by himself.

    It is interesting in the case of Kennedy's assassination how real
    evidence can change my mind.  When I first started reading a.r I
    wondered if the same sort of real evidence might be presented here.  I
    have yet to see anything even approaching it.

===========================================================================
daniel david mittleman     -     danny@arizona.edu     -     (602) 621-2932


From oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!juno.xana.bc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!csus.edu!netcom.com!codfish Wed Jan  4 15:50:00 PST 1995
Article: 20931 of alt.revisionism
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Fred Leuchter (was Re: Revisionist answers)
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
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Date: Wed, 4 Jan 1995 05:38:32 GMT
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:     However, if what he says about selective and malicious prosecution is
: true, the ACLU should be interested in his case.  I suspect Alan
: Dershowitz would be willing to take it as a free speech issue - I believe
: he was the one who defended the right of the Nazis to march in Skokie. 

: Has Leuchter contacted them?  If not, why not?

I doubt very much that Dershowitz would have taken the case; he's a 
doctrinaire revisionist hater.

As for getting the ACLU into the act, I remember that that was first 
thing I asked Fred back in 1990, when this business came to a head.  He 
told me he had already engaged Kirk Lyon's Patriot's Defence Fund, which 
is now called the CAUSE Foundation.  I would have preferred that he had 
contacted the ACLU first, but I was hardly running the show.

               Ross Vicksell

: -- 
: Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
: POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
: Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!codfish Thu Jan  5 11:20:50 PST 1995
Article: 20933 of alt.revisionism
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Fred Leuchter (was Re: Revisionist answers)
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
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Date: Wed, 4 Jan 1995 07:20:35 GMT
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Barry Shein (bzs@world.std.com) wrote:

: How come Leuchter's remarks are completely bereft of any evidence for
: his claims? He just conjures up some sort of world-wide jewish
: conspiracy out to get him, describes his misadventures, and blames it
: all on "them". Who the hell is them? Why can't he be specific if he's
: so sure of this?

Read Fred's article again.  He's quite specific.  He names names:
   
   "Behind this campaign to punish me and suppress the truth about the gas
   chambers, have been several Jewish organizations, which have publicly
   vowed to silence me by destroying my ability to make a living.
   
   At the forefront of this effort has been Beate Klarsfeld of the
   Paris-based Klarsfeld Foundation. In the United States, the campaign
   has been orchestrated through the US-based 'Holocaust Survivors and
   Friends in Pursuit of Justice.' Associated with these two
   organizations have been the Anti-Defamation League of the B'nai B'rith
   and the Jewish Defense League.

   At Klarsfeld's initiative, these groups first carried out an extensive
   one year investigation. After they were unable to turn up any
   impropriety or wrongdoing on my part, they began to threaten prison
   wardens with political consequences if they dealt with me. This first
   came to light when the ABC television news program, "Prime Time,"
   decided to do a network television piece on myself and my work. This
   involved filming at various prisons. Prison wardens advised the "Prime
   Time" personnel of the threats and problems that resulted from my
   presence at the prisons for the filming. ABC news was told not to air
   the program. It refused to succumb to the pressure, and consequently
   suffered vilification by the organizations involved.
  
      To sum up here, this campaign has consisted of the following:
   
    1. Threats against prison officials who dealt with me.
    2. False and slanderous vilification through private channels, as
       well as publicly in newspapers and magazines.
    3. Legislation to prevent me from working at my profession.
    4. Criminal prosecution for working at my profession.
    5. Lies by public officials spread both officially and privately.
    6. Restriction of my personal freedom and right to travel by
       effecting my illegal arrest and imprisonment in England, from
       where I was finally deported.
    7. Interference with my right as an American citizen to help and
       protection from the US State Department, which refused to assist
       me during my illegal imprisonment in England.
       
   As a result of this campaign, my livelihood has been destroyed, and my
   career has been ruined. All this for telling the truth under oath."

I do think Fred is being a little rough on Shelley Shapiro of Holocaust
Survivors and Friends in Pursuit of Justice, though.  She appeared on
Boston TV, I think it was WGBH, protesting that they didn't really mean to
destroy Fred's business - they just wanted to discredit the Leuchter
Report. 

Also, since Fred made his list of particulars, he's had another 
non-encounter with the U.S. State Department; they didn't lift a finger 
to help him out when he was jailed in Germany.

As for the involvment of the Klarsfeld Foundation, I sat next to Ms. 
Klarsfeld herself in the courtroom in Malden.  She was there - ask her if
you don't believe ne. But maybe she just happened to be passing through
Boston at the time. Also the local ADL boss was there, at least out front
of courthouse in Cambridge.  Again, you can ask him if you don't believe
me. 

Also Fred fails to mention the Massachusetts Committee Against the Death
Penalty, which also gave him a hard time.  I just made out a check to them,
since they're not hassling Fred any more, as far as I know. 

As for pressure being brought on the media, there's an article about it in
"Truth Prevails."  Straight from the horses mouth.  They complain about
how irresponsible ABC TV is to go ahead and air their Prime Time "Mr. 
Death" show. 

: What is the phone number and mailing address of this  well-organized
: and invincible international jewish conspiracy Leuchter keeps referring
: to? 

Fred never once refers to the "international jewish conspiracy" (IJC). 
That expression, like "holocaust denier", "neo-nazi", and "hate monger",
is part of your set of catch phrases, not ours.  On the contrary, Fred
refers to four specific Jewish Groups: the Klarsfeld Foundation, Holocaust
Survivors and Friends in Pursuit of Justice, the ADL, and the JDL. 

: Simple and fair question, no? Certainly anything so organized and
: capable of trampling all these people into the ground, with complete
: control of the entire court system in the US etc, MUST HAVE A PHONE
: NUMBER AND AN ADDRESS!

Look them up yourself. Two of them are right here in the Boston area, the
ADL in Boston and the JDL in Revere, last time I looked.  And I'm sure if
you also wanted to contact the Klarsfeld Foundation or Holocaust Survivors
et. al., the local ADL would be glad to furnish you with their addresses
and/or phone/fax numbers. 

I have a few more things to say about Fred's trials and tribulations, but 
I'll save them for later.

               Ross Vicksell


From oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!juno.xana.bc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!hookup!newshost.marcam.com!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!csusac!csus.edu!netcom.com!codfish Thu Jan  5 11:20:51 PST 1995
Article: 20940 of alt.revisionism
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Military Cooperation Between Israel and Communist China
Message-ID: 
Followup-To: alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.current-events,talk.politics.misc,soc.culture.taiwan,soc.culture.indian,soc.culture.vietnamese,alt.revisionism
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
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Date: Wed, 4 Jan 1995 07:56:17 GMT
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Barry Shein (bzs@world.std.com) wrote:

: >Arms have long been Israel's principal export.  
: >
: >            Ross Vicksell

: Does it bother you that both the 1994 Information Please Almanac and
: the CIA World Factbook both list polished diamonds as Israel's
: principle export? And among the list of major exports none lists arms?
: Actually, the CIA World Factbook lists arms as one of their major
: *imports*.

: So I'm sure you are going to provide us with the source of this bit of
: information you posted ...

I'm working on it.  But obviously, there are ways of cooking the 
statistics, e.g. the Iran-Contra arms trans-shipments may have appeared 
as imports but not exports.

            Ross Vicksell


From oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!juno.xana.bc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!codfish Thu Jan  5 11:20:52 PST 1995
Article: 20941 of alt.revisionism
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: My quote from Ditlieb Felderer?
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References: <27DEC199407525540@violet.ccit.arizona.edu> <3dqkfi$4pp@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Jan 1995 08:16:24 GMT
Lines: 15

HMazal (hmazal@aol.com) wrote:
: I am all for posting publicly. You were quite right to do so. I cannot
: imagine why anyone should admonish you. As virulent and unpleasant as most
: of the communications are on this list, I am surprised that anyone would
: be offended by this civilized exchange. Perhaps we should have both used
: the foul language employed in Mr. Vicksell's original public note ... 
: nobody would have then taken notice!

: Harry W. Mazal in San Antonio, Texas

Sorry, I've lost track of what started all this - was it a quote from 
Ditlieb Felderer;  In any event, it wasn't me who was using the foul 
language but whoever I was quoting.  I don't know any bad words.

              Ross Vicksell


From oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!juno.xana.bc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!csus.edu!netcom.com!codfish Thu Jan  5 11:20:54 PST 1995
Article: 20942 of alt.revisionism
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Squirming?  Hardly.
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References: <3cuunb$r0h@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> 
Date: Wed, 4 Jan 1995 08:22:23 GMT
Lines: 10

Jamie McCarthy (k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu) wrote:

: Since Mr. Vicksell has expressed his belief that the torture did indeed
: occur, perhaps he will be the one to provide us with evidence.  Would
: you care to discuss the subject, Mr. Vicksell?

Try "Legions of Death" , written by a British Sergeant who participated 
in the torture of Hoess, for starters.

             Ross Vicksell


From oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!csus.edu!netcom.com!codfish Thu Jan  5 11:20:55 PST 1995
Article: 20945 of alt.revisionism
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: End of the year thoughts
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References:  
Date: Wed, 4 Jan 1995 09:36:22 GMT
Lines: 16

Jeffrey G. Brown (jeff_brown@pol.com) wrote:

: ... The revisionists know that they are liars, and know that they
: cannot refute the enormous evidence that demonstrates that the Holocaust
: is a historical fact. Thus, they have no option but to evade (a la Raven,
: Vicksell, and Smith), bluster (a la Kleim and Berg) or descend into

(That's the old me.  I told you about my New Year's resolution, didn't I?)

: irrelevancy (a la landpost and McGuire).

Poor McGuire is a man without a country.  He's not one of us, because
he believes the Holocaust Story but he's not one of you either, because he
doesn't believe the Israel Story. 

               Ross Vicksell


From oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!codfish Thu Jan  5 11:20:56 PST 1995
Article: 20947 of alt.revisionism
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Fred Leuchter (was Re: Revisionist answers)
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References:  
Date: Wed, 4 Jan 1995 10:27:40 GMT
Lines: 93

Barry Shein (bzs@world.std.com) wrote:

: How come Leuchter's remarks are completely bereft of any evidence for
: his claims? He just conjures up some sort of world-wide jewish
: conspiracy out to get him, describes his misadventures, and blames it
: all on "them". Who the hell is them? Why can't he be specific if he's
: so sure of this?

Read Fred's article again.  He's quite specific.  He names names:

   "Behind this campaign to punish me and suppress the truth about the gas
   chambers, have been several Jewish organizations, which have publicly
   vowed to silence me by destroying my ability to make a living.
   
   At the forefront of this effort has been Beate Klarsfeld of the
   Paris-based Klarsfeld Foundation. In the United States, the campaign
   has been orchestrated through the US-based 'Holocaust Survivors and
   Friends in Pursuit of Justice.' Associated with these two
   organizations have been the Anti-Defamation League of the B'nai B'rith
   and the Jewish Defense League.
   
   At Klarsfeld's initiative, these groups first carried out an extensive
   one year investigation. After they were unable to turn up any
   impropriety or wrongdoing on my part, they began to threaten prison
   wardens with political consequences if they dealt with me. This first
   came to light when the ABC television news program, 'Prime Time,'
   decided to do a network television piece on myself and my work. This
   involved filming at various prisons. Prison wardens advised the 'Prime
   Time' personnel of the threats and problems that resulted from my
   presence at the prisons for the filming. ABC news was told not to air
   the program. It refused to succumb to the pressure, and consequently
   suffered vilification by the organizations involved.
   
   To sum up here, this campaign has consisted of the following:
   
    1. Threats against prison officials who dealt with me.
    2. False and slanderous vilification through private channels, as
       well as publicly in newspapers and magazines.
    3. Legislation to prevent me from working at my profession.
    4. Criminal prosecution for working at my profession.
    5. Lies by public officials spread both officially and privately.
    6. Restriction of my personal freedom and right to travel by
       effecting my illegal arrest and imprisonment in England, from
       where I was finally deported.
    7. Interference with my right as an American citizen to help and
       protection from the US State Department, which refused to assist
       me during my illegal imprisonment in England."

To which we might add the non-action of the State Department when Fred was
imprisoned for a month in Germany, which happened about a year after the
speech at the IHR convention. 

Fred is being a little hard on Shelley Shapiro, of Holocaust Survivors and 
Friends in Search of Justice, who said on Boston TV how they hadn't 
really meant to destroy Fred's business, just his credibility as writer 
of the Leuchter Report.  Too bad things came out the way they did.

I sat next to Beata Klarsfeld in the courtroom in Malden and I saw the
chief honcho of the local ADL, I forget his name, outside the courthouse
in Cambridge, and the JDL were there at every court appearance of Fred's. 
All organizations present and accounted for.

The pressure applied to ABC to not show their Prime Time "Dr.Death" is 
discussed in an article in Shelly Shapiro's anthology "Truth Prevails, 
the End of the Leuchter Report."  Straight from the  horse's mouth.

Fred also was being harrassed by the Massachusetts Committee Against the 
Death Penalty, too, but I forgive them.  I just sent them a check, in fact.

: 	What is the phone number and mailing address of this
: 	well-organized and invincible international jewish
: 	conspiracy Leuchter keeps referring to?

Fred never once refers to the "international jewish conspiracy".  He does
talk about four particular Jewish organizations.  The one that started
"Operation Get Leuchter" is in Paris, which does give an internation
flavor to the affair, I admit. "International jewish conspiracy" is your
catch-phrase, as are "neo-nazi", "hate monger", and "holocaust denier,"
not ours. 

: Simple and fair question, no? Certainly anything so organized and
: capable of trampling all these people into the ground, with complete
: control of the entire court system in the US etc, MUST HAVE A PHONE
: NUMBER AND AN ADDRESS!

Look them up yourself.  Why should I have to do all the dog work?  The 
ADL is in Boston and the JDL is probably still in Revere.  And I'm sure 
the ADL could tell you how to contact the other two outfits.

I have more to say on the subject of Fred's trials and tribulations, but 
I'll save that for later.

            Ross Vicksell


From oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!garnet.berkeley.edu!schultz Thu Jan  5 11:20:57 PST 1995
Article: 20948 of alt.revisionism
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From: schultz@garnet.berkeley.edu (Richard Schultz)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Fred Leuchter (was Re: Revisionist answers)
Date: 4 Jan 1995 12:13:45 GMT
Organization: Philosophers of the Dangerous Maybe
Lines: 27
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References:   
NNTP-Posting-Host: garnet.berkeley.edu

In article ,
Ross Vicksell  wrote:

>Read Fred's article again.  He's quite specific.  He names names:
>
>   "Behind this campaign to punish me and suppress the truth about the gas
>   chambers, have been several Jewish organizations, which have publicly
>   vowed to silence me by destroying my ability to make a living.
>   
>   At the forefront of this effort has been Beate Klarsfeld. . . 

No doubt someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I had always been
under the impression that Beate Klarsfeld isn't Jewish.

I also noticed that in this speech, Leuchter was long on Jewish conspiracies
but short on the kind of evidence that might make him out to be something
other than a paranoid loon.  He seems not to have noticed that he admitted
in open court that he had no training as an engineer.  Has it ever 
occurred to him that people who are looking to hire an engineer might
possibly want to hire a qualified one?  And as I pointed out before, if
the prison officials were lying about their relationships with him, 
why didn't he say "here in my hand is a letter from a prison official
who later denied having ever heard of me."  
--
					Richard Schultz

"I seem to smell a peculiar and a fishlike smell."


From oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!news1.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail Thu Jan  5 11:20:58 PST 1995
Article: 20949 of alt.revisionism
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From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Squirming?  Hardly.
Date: 4 Jan 1995 09:17:19 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
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References: <3cuunb$r0h@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>  
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net

In article ,
Ross Vicksell  wrote:
>Jamie McCarthy (k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu) wrote:
>
>: Since Mr. Vicksell has expressed his belief that the torture did indeed
>: occur, perhaps he will be the one to provide us with evidence.  Would
>: you care to discuss the subject, Mr. Vicksell?
>
>Try "Legions of Death" , written by a British Sergeant who participated 
>in the torture of Hoess, for starters.

    When did you start considering eyewitness testimony and confessions
reliable, Ross?  You don't accept any of them from SS guards - not even
from Kurt Gerstein, who told people about the gassing well before the end
of the war and so could not possibly have been tortured into making that
statement.  Rather inconsistent of you, I think.

    Or do you now accept Gerstein's statements during the war to the
Swedish diplomat, Alexandra Balder, and Otto Volckers (which agreed with
his postwar written confession) as evidence? 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


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Article: 20954 of alt.revisionism
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From: simon1@bu.edu (Simon Streltsov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Fred Leuchter (was Re: Revisionist answers)
Date: 4 Jan 1995 16:59:11 GMT
Organization: Boston University
Lines: 300
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X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL0]

I dug up references to Fred Leuchter in the court proceedings -
there is none about him (? because it did not get to court),
but there are several ref. to him being asked as an expert.

I'll let you decide if it is relevant or not 
(I tried to keep court cases, so that it would be easy to find the
missing parts)

Simcha

     Chicago Daily Law Bulletin

                           December 1, 1992, Tuesday
HEADLINE: Executioners and the tools of their trade

BYLINE: THOMAS MAEDER

 BODY:
   Engineering and industrial design are generally employed to enhance our lives
with the creation of pleasingly functional objects. More rarely they help to
take lives away, as in weapons design, or in the work of Fred  Leuchter  of
Massachusetts, America's only specialist in the design and construction of
execution devices.

    Leuchter  does not create engines of mass destruction, like the gas chambers
of the Nazi death camps. Rather, his instruments are designed to solve a
peculiar practical and moral problem: how to cut down on the number of ...

    Capital punishment, not capital torture'' is Fred  Leuchter's  motto.
Society has sentenced certain men to die -- no more and no less -- and with good
old Yankee ingenuity,  Leuchter  seeks ways to get the job done quickly,
painlessly and well. Most existing execution equipment is ancient, and was
amateurishly constructed to begin with. So why not buy a new, professionally
made gallows for $ 85,000, with on-site training and an optional service
contract? Or an electric chair made of oak, with a padded backrest?

    Leuchter  was hardly the only person Stephen Trombley spoke to. Yet for a
book entirely devoted to the subject of executions, The Execution Protocol:
Inside America's Capital Punishment Industry'' offers surprisingly little direct
speculation ...

   ... trained people, including doctors and clergymen.''

   Trombley, a film maker who was preparing a documentary film on execution as
he conducted research for this book, elected to divide his focus between Fred
 Leuchter's  cottage industry in capital punishment equipment and the workings
of the Potosi Correctional Center. The 48-year-old  Leuchter  emerges as a
character of impenetrable motives, a craftsman working in a morbid medium






   ROBERT WAYNE SAWYER v. JOHN WHITLEY, Warden, Louisiana State
                        Penitentiary, Angola, Louisiana

                               SAWYER v. WHITLEY

                            Civil Action No. 90-4035

            UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE EASTERN DISTRICT OF
                                   LOUISIANA

                  772 F. Supp. 297; 1991 U.S. Dist. LEXIS 9956

                                        
                            July 10, 1991, Decided  
                              July 16, 1991, Filed

   After reviewing the pleadings, the Court determined that an evidentiary
[**26]   hearing on Claim 4 was warranted due to the conflicting affidavits from
the parties' experts. n11 At the conclusion of the hearing,   [*307]   the Court
found that Louisiana's electric chair meets constitutional standards. The Court
rendered oral reasons and advised the parties that written reasons would follow
in this opinion. The Court's reasons are set forth below.


 n11 One of the expert affidavits submitted by Sawyer in support of Claim 4 is
the affidavit of  Fred Leuchter.  The Court recently read in the Times-Picayune
newspaper that  Leuchter  was charged by the State of Massachusetts with
practicing engineering without a license. See Times-Picayune, June 19, 1991, at
A-11. The article reported that on June 11, 1991,  Leuchter  signed a consent
agreement with the Massachusetts board that licenses engineers stating: "I am
not and never have been registered as a professional engineer" and that he had
nevertheless represented himself as an engineer in several dealings with various
states that use the death penalty. The agreement also required  Leuchter  to
stop disseminating the " Leuchter  Report" in which he purports to be an
engineer and offers the view that the gas chambers in Nazi concentration camps
were never used for mass killings. Id.

    Leuchter's  affidavit in the case at bar states: "I have been involved in
electrical engineering work for 26 years." Interestingly, although Sawyer relied
to a great extent on  Leuchter's  affidavit in his petition for habeas corpus,
he did not call  Leuchter  as a witness at the evidentiary hearing, nor did he
offer his affidavit as evidence.
 
 JAMES WILLIAM HAMBLEN, Petitioner, v. RICHARD L. DUGGER,
            Secretary, Florida Department of Corrections, Respondent

                               HAMBLEN v. DUGGER

                              No. 90-616-Civ-J-12

            UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE MIDDLE DISTRICT OF
                         FLORIDA, JACKSONVILLE DIVISION

                 748 F. Supp. 1498; 1990 U.S. Dist. LEXIS 12826

                                        
                            July 16, 1990, Decided  
                              July 16, 1990, Filed
 
  Petitioner advances several reasons for an evidentiary hearing anew in this
Court. On the one hand, he argues that DOC's representations concerning
operation of the electric chair are not credible. For instance, he alludes to
the infamous "toaster test" of a synthetic sponge and contrasts the experience
with synthetic sponges in South Carolina. Both of these matters, however, are
disposed of in Judge Fawsett's opinion, wherein the Court refers to the
testimony from a Department of Agriculture chemist who performed tests on the
sponge used in the Tafero execution, which was chemically different from the
type used in South Carolina. Indeed,  Fred Leuchter,  an expert proffered by
petitioner, testified in Buenoano that polyurethane sponges inhibit the
conduction of electricity and do not absorb water, effectively rebutting
petitioner's assertion that the sponge's composition is irrelevant because its
conductivity is produced by soaking in a saline solution. (The affidavit of
Robert H. Kirschner, M.D., submitted by petitioner, also refers to the increased
resistance of the sponge as the cause of reduced charge to Tafero.) These
criticisms of DOC, then, do not present issues requiring an  [**9]   evidentiary
hearing.


The Court turns to petitioner's other stratagem, the proposal of issues that
would be proved if an evidentiary hearing were held. (Petitioner states that
Judge Fawsett refused to hear the proposed evidence.) n3 First, petitioner
proposes to show that power was lost at Florida State Prison on May 7, 1990,
during tests of the electric chair. Because power had not been lost in this
fashion previously, petitioner contends that this evidence undermines DOC's
subsequent assertion that the equipment now works today as it did prior to
Tafero's execution. Second, petitioner would show that agents of DOG sought
repair of the head electrode by inmate workers in the maintenance shops of the
Florida State Prison prior to Tafero's execution. Petitioner contends that this
evidence demonstrates an awareness of the alleged defective condition of the
head electrode and DOC's failure to seek proper repair thereof. Third,
petitioner would call  Fred Leuchter  to testify that the only possible
explanation for the events surrounding Tafero's execution is a broken or poorly
maintained head electrode. Further, Mr.  Leuchter  would testify to the
negotiations between himself and DOC officials  [**10]   in 1986 over proposed
repairs and maintenance for the electric chair. Petitioner contends that this
latter testimony demonstrates the knowledge of DOC officials of defects in the
electric chair. Last, petitioner would present testimony regarding the
possibility that Tafero suffered when conductivity problems arose during his
execution.
 

      WALLACE NORRELL THOMAS, Petitioner, v. CHARLIE JONES,
                    Warden, Holman State Prison, Respondent

                                THOMAS v. JONES

                         Civil Action No. 90-0517-AH-C

           UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF
                           ALABAMA, SOUTHERN DIVISION

                  742 F. Supp. 598; 1990 U.S. Dist. LEXIS 8581

                                        
                             July 10, 1990, Decided

OPINION:


  Evidence Presented

   The following is a summary of the relevant evidence presented through
documents, exhibits, affidavits, depositions, and testimony at the hearing.

   Alabama's wooden electric chair is in a separate "execution chamber" with its
back to the wall on which the receptacles for the electrical connectors are
located. There are four receptacles, arranged two by two. (Photograph, Exhibit 2
to Morse affidavit). To properly connect the chair to the power source the
cables should run from the two bottom receptacles to the back of the chair.
(Morse affidavit, p. 2, Morse testimony, 7/9/90, Bernstein testimony, 7/9/90,
Brooks affidavit, p. 2, Thigpen deposition). The top receptacles lead to a bank
of test resistors from which no power can flow. ( Leuchter  affidavit, p. 3,
Bernstein testimony, 7/9/90, Morse testimony, 7/9/90).

   If the cables are connected from the top receptacles to the electric chair,
no electrical power reaches the chair. (Brooks' affidavit, p. 2,  Leuchter 
affidavit, p. 3, Morse testimony, 7/9/90, Bernstein testimony, 7/9/90).


 [*606]    Fred  A.  Leuchter  (engineer engaged in the design and manufacture
of "execution hardware") states that Alabama's execution equipment is old, but
that it is the same type of equipment most electrocution states use to carry out
their electrocutions.  Leuchter  opines that, properly operated, Alabama's
electric chair can be used to carry out a humane execution. ( Leuchter 
affidavit, p. 4).  Leuchter  also states that the old electric chair is being
replaced because of the difficulty in getting spare parts, and because the newer
electric chair will be easier to use.

   Dr. Morse testified that he examined the electric chair on July 5, 1990, that
it was in satisfactory working order, and that the design, though simple, is
adequate to enable the Alabama Department of Corrections to carry out a humane
execution. (Morse deposition,   [**21]   and Morse testimony at 7/9/90 hearing).
   Dr. Bernstein testified that Alabama's execution procedures are inadequate
because the electric chair is antiquated ("an accident waiting to happen") and
because the people who operate it do not know what they are doing. Bernstein
holds the opinion that better trained personnel would not have made the mistake
made by Craft and Skipper, and that there is a substantial likelihood of some
other mishap occurring during future executions.

   Some of the documentary evidence and live testimony tended to show that
corpses of prisoners executed in Alabama's electric chair bear unexplained
burns. (Richardson Autopsy Report, Dunkins Autopsy Report.)

   Findings of Fact

  1. The Court finds that in a properly performed judicial electrocution the
initial application of electricity is meant to cause instant brain death.
Cardiac arrest is secondary.

   2. The Court finds that the electric chair was incorrectly connected on the
night of July 14, 1989. As a result of this error, no electrical power reached
the chair during the first cycle. Horace Dunkins, Jr. did not receive an
electrical shock until the second cycle.

   3. The Court finds that Dunkins fainted at the  [**22]   time of the first
attempt at his execution and never regained consciousness. Consequently, the
Court finds no support for Thomas' contention that Dunkins suffered from being
made to go through a "mock execution." Further, the Court finds no credible
evidence that Dunkins suffered any pain during the actual electrocution process
as during the one time electricity passed through his body, * * * Dunkins was
instantaneously rendered brain dead. Consequently, he was unable to feel pain,
and did not suffer.

   4. The Court finds that the error which occurred during the Dunkins execution
cannot be repeated.



     STATE OF DELAWARE v. BILLIE BAILEY, Defendant

                                STATE v. BAILEY

              Nos. IK79-05-0085R1, IK79-05-0086R1, IK79-05-0087R1,
                 IK79-05-0088R1, IK79-07-0202R1, IK79-07-0203R1

                        Superior Court of Delaware, Kent

                           1991 Del. Super. LEXIS 352

                                        
                            August 23, 1991, Decided

  n3 The State initially contended that any execution by hanging would be
carried out by a "Mr. Ellis" and that any execution by lethal injection would be
carried out in consultation with a Mr.  Fred Leuchter  using a machine he
designed. Ultimately, the State advised the Court that neither of these persons
would be personally involved. The State currently plans to use Department of
Correction employees who will be trained.

    JUDY A. BUENOANO, Appellant, v. STATE OF FLORIDA, Appellee

                               BUENOANO v. STATE

                                   No. 76,150

                            Supreme Court of Florida

          565 So. 2d 309; 1990 Fla. LEXIS 845; 15 Fla. Law W. 355; 15
                               Fla. Law W. S 355

                                        
                                 June 20, 1990

 Still other affidavits presented  [**16]   to this Court confirm a faulty
design in the present electric chair. An expert in the design and construction
of electric chairs,  Fred Leuchter,  Jr., reported that the Florida chair was
not functioning properly because of its use of only a single "homemade" leg
electrode. According to  Leuchter,  an electric chair needs electrodes attached
to both legs in order to work properly.  Leuchter  also criticized the present
leg electrode because it had been haphazardly constructed from an old Army boot
and other spare parts.

   This statement was confirmed by the man who actually fabricated the Army-boot
electrode, Robin Adair. Adair stated that, while working at the prison, he
created the present Army-boot electrode by riveting different types of metal and
roofing material into the boot, together with a stainless steel bolt obtained
from a hardware store. Adair specifically characterized this arrangement as
"homemade.

   This Court thus is faced with a ghastly possibility: A homemade electrode
fashioned out of a used Army boot, spare parts, and roofing material may
sometimes result in flames, smoke, and extensive charring of flesh during an
execution. If the facts as alleged by Buenoano are true,   [**17]   even more
serious malfunctions may occur in the future.




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Article: 20959 of alt.revisionism
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From: dwareing@apanix.apana.org.au (David Wareing)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.current-events,talk.politics.misc,soc.culture.taiwan,soc.culture.indian,soc.culture.vietnamese,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Military Cooperation Between Israel and Communist China
Date: 5 Jan 1995 10:32:10 GMT
Organization: Apanix Public Access Unix, +61 8 373 5485 (5 lines)
Lines: 70
Message-ID: <3eghra$h5@tipellium.apana.org.au>
References: <3e5m1s$lej@ixnews1.ix.netcom.com>  	<3e9tvu$gj0@cronkite.cisco.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: seldon.apanix.apana.org.au

bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein) writes:


>>Arms have long been Israel's principal export.  
>>
>>            Ross Vicksell

[snip]

>Does it bother you that both the 1994 Information Please Almanac and
>the CIA World Factbook both list polished diamonds as Israel's
>principle export? And among the list of major exports none lists arms?
>Actually, the CIA World Factbook lists arms as one of their major
>*imports*.

Hmm. They do indeed import a lot of arms, but they also manufacture
a lot and are very active in the export market. Israel has a major
military electronics industry and is known as a leader in military
avionics and the retrofitting and upgrading of weapon systems. 
Quite frankly, I don't believe the accuracy of the CIA factbook
if it doesn't list Israeli arms exports. Take a look in any 
military hardware journals - you will find Israel as a major
provider of everything from small arms to battle tank and fighter
upgrades.

Israel has a long history of dealing with China. While this may
seem disquieting or even reprehensible to the West, you must consider
Israel's position. They have long been effectivly boycotted by 
fickle countries such as France and the UK who'd rather bet on
oil states. Despite "peace", they still have many threats to
consider. Hamas aren't showing any signs of disappearing soon
and there's still Syria a few minutes away. The West may have
forgotten about Syria, but nobody in Israel has. Syria to Israel
is pretty much the equivalent of having North Korea parked
next to California. You'd have to be mad to downsize your
military just because the dictatorship next door hasn't been
noisy of late.  

Israel's "special relationship" with the US has been strained for a long
time now and the days of unquestioning support from that country
are long gone. Israel is looking for other options.

>So I'm sure you are going to provide us with the source of this bit of
>information you posted so people don't think you just fabricate
>everything that comes out of your mouth to serve your own
>holocaust-denier, basically anti-semitic, political agenda.

Geez. I must have missed something? Either that or you have gone off
the deep end. I've got a soft spot for Israel from way back, but
I'm not deluding myself into thinking that they don't export
arms or participate in activities that the US finds unsavory.
I haven't got an anti-semtic bone in my body and some of my
friends chide me for my pro-Israeli stance quite often, but Israel
has and does do quite questionable things from time to time. 

>Oh, and please do spare us any ranting about the Information Please
>Almanac being a lying Zionist front and helpless pawn of the great and
>vast international jewish conspiracy. Your own references (or lack
>thereof) will suffice to allow us to draw our own conclusions.

I really must have missed something. Do you know that it's ok to
criticise Israel without being a card carrying member of Hamas
or Hitler Youth 95?

--
David Wareing                     dwareing@apanix.apana.org.au
Adelaide, South Australia         
Macintosh Games & Multimedia Programming
--------------------------------------------------------------
May you live in interesting times


From oneb!kmcvay Thu Jan  5 11:53:00 PST 1995
Article: 20967 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!kmcvay
From: kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay)
Subject: Re: Squirming?  Hardly.
References: <3cuunb$r0h@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>  
Organization: The Old Frog's Almanac
Message-ID: <1995Jan05.192236.19628@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
Date: Thu, 05 Jan 95 19:22:36 GMT

In article  codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) writes:

>Jamie McCarthy (k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu) wrote:

>: Since Mr. Vicksell has expressed his belief that the torture did indeed
>: occur, perhaps he will be the one to provide us with evidence.  Would
>: you care to discuss the subject, Mr. Vicksell?

>Try "Legions of Death" , written by a British Sergeant who participated 
>in the torture of Hoess, for starters.

Hmmm... don't Raven's Rules preclude postwar sources? Personal
testimony?

-- 
          The Nizkor Project: An Electronic Holocaust Resource
   (For full file listing, send INDEX to listserv@oneb.almanac.bc.ca)
                     kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca
             Vancouver Island, British Columbia, CANADA


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Article: 20980 of alt.revisionism
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From: landpost@clark.net
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Squirming?  Hardly.
Date: Wed, 04 Jan 1995 20:19:38 -0500
Organization: Clark Internet Services, Inc.
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

In article , codfish@netcom.com (Ross
Vicksell) wrote:

> Jamie McCarthy (k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu) wrote:
> 
> : Since Mr. Vicksell has expressed his belief that the torture did indeed
> : occur, perhaps he will be the one to provide us with evidence.  Would
> : you care to discuss the subject, Mr. Vicksell?
> 
> Try "Legions of Death" , written by a British Sergeant who participated 
> in the torture of Hoess, for starters.
> 
>              Ross Vicksell

-----------------
codfish:

Try "Innocent at Dachau" after you are finished with Vicksell's book.
You've got a lot of reading to do, haven't you??

Tim McCarthy
landpost@clark.net


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Article: 20983 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Fred Leuchter (was Re: Revisionist answers)
In-Reply-To: codfish@netcom.com's message of Wed, 4 Jan 1995 05:38:32 GMT
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References: 
	
	 <3ecm3q$n04@access4.digex.net>
	
Date: Thu, 5 Jan 1995 01:45:09 GMT
Lines: 21


From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
>:     However, if what he says about selective and malicious prosecution is
>: true, the ACLU should be interested in his case.  I suspect Alan
>: Dershowitz would be willing to take it as a free speech issue - I believe
>: he was the one who defended the right of the Nazis to march in Skokie. 
>
>: Has Leuchter contacted them?  If not, why not?
>
>I doubt very much that Dershowitz would have taken the case; he's a 
>doctrinaire revisionist hater.

Oh, c'mon, but he defended the Nazis in Skokie, Illinois because...?

You really don't understand these sorts of things, do you?

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


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Article: 20987 of alt.revisionism
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Fred Leuchter (was Re: Revisionist answers)
In-Reply-To: codfish@netcom.com's message of Wed, 4 Jan 1995 07:20:35 GMT
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References: 
	 
Date: Thu, 5 Jan 1995 02:01:01 GMT
Lines: 64


From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
>   At Klarsfeld's initiative, these groups first carried out an extensive
>   one year investigation. After they were unable to turn up any
>   impropriety or wrongdoing on my part, they began to threaten prison
>   wardens with political consequences if they dealt with me. This first
>   came to light when the ABC television news program, "Prime Time,"
>   decided to do a network television piece on myself and my work. This
>   involved filming at various prisons. Prison wardens advised the "Prime
>   Time" personnel of the threats and problems that resulted from my
>   presence at the prisons for the filming. ABC news was told not to air
>   the program. It refused to succumb to the pressure, and consequently
>   suffered vilification by the organizations involved.

Ok, so Leuchter does name names etc.

So how did this Paris-based group exercise political pressure? What
does that mean exactly? How can a sane and rational person distinguish
this from psychotic ravings and make the connection that bridges the
complaint that something happened this fellow didn't like, and there
exist people out there who didn't like him (I don't doubt people
dislike him, I don't doubt he dislikes what happened to him, but
that's beside the point, right? A connection has to be made, not just
a list of events that might or might not be related.)

Such massive political pressure that would bring ABC and courtrooms
and prison wardens to their respective knees has to have something
more to be described in the way of process than just postulating cause
and effect. A bridge between the two has to be established, not just
that they both happened to exist.

Otherwise it's just appears to be a fantasy, something is missing,
like tying any of this together. It's not enough to say Beate
Klarsfeld doesn't like me, I lost in court, so therefore Beate
Klarsfeld must control the US court system. That's nonsense of the
first order, and there's little else here.

>Also, since Fred made his list of particulars, he's had another 
>non-encounter with the U.S. State Department; they didn't lift a finger 
>to help him out when he was jailed in Germany.

He knowingly and pugnaciously violated their laws, right? Why should
the US State Dept intervene? Particularly on what, in the grand scheme
of things, isn't really a very serious charge, appeared to be done as
a willful act of civil disobediance, and occurred in a country whose
laws and legal process this country generally respects?

If he were arrested and sentenced to death for taking his shirt off in
some third-world tin-pot dictatorship that's one thing, but why should
the US State Dept challenge Germany's legal sovereignty on a matter
like this? Particularly one where the offender has made it very clear
(even if just by his actions) that he was purposely flaunting the law
for political effect? Did Leuchter somehow accidentally fall into this
mess? What's the point here?

I may not agree with Germany's law, per se, but I don't think I'd
expect the US State Dept to intervene on my half in a situation like
this.

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
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Article: 20988 of alt.revisionism
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Military Cooperation Between Israel and Communist China
In-Reply-To: codfish@netcom.com's message of Wed, 4 Jan 1995 07:56:17 GMT
Message-ID: 
Followup-To: alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.current-events,talk.politics.misc,soc.culture.taiwan,soc.culture.indian,soc.culture.vietnamese,alt.revisionism
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References: <3e5m1s$lej@ixnews1.ix.netcom.com> 
	 
Date: Thu, 5 Jan 1995 02:10:58 GMT
Lines: 55


From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
>Barry Shein (bzs@world.std.com) wrote:
>
>: >Arms have long been Israel's principal export.  
>: >
>: >            Ross Vicksell
>
>: Does it bother you that both the 1994 Information Please Almanac and
>: the CIA World Factbook both list polished diamonds as Israel's
>: principle export? And among the list of major exports none lists arms?
>: Actually, the CIA World Factbook lists arms as one of their major
>: *imports*.
>
>: So I'm sure you are going to provide us with the source of this bit of
>: information you posted ...
>
>I'm working on it.  But obviously, there are ways of cooking the 
>statistics, e.g. the Iran-Contra arms trans-shipments may have appeared 
>as imports but not exports.

No, I'm sorry Ross, but this is bullshit.

Is that how your mind works? You are caught dead to wrong, cannot
produce facts to back up your claims, so immediately run for cover in
yet another grand conspiracy theory?

How many massive conspiracy theories do you profess here? I mean per
hour? Don't you worry about your own sanity, even a little?

Arms exports are among the most watched and measured economic
transactions in the world. Israel doesn't have so many friends and
protectors that covering up their having arms as a PRINCIPLE EXPORT
would escape world attention!

Iran-contra was what? One one hundredth of one one thousandth of the
US's arms dealings that year? What are you comparing here? You're not
serious, are you? I mean other than frantically trying to cast some
doubt on what obviously are the facts, that you just completely made
that fact up, or did you lose your source since you posted it?

And you wonder why so many people consider you revisionists utterly
ridiculous, this sort of crap is constantly at the core of everything
you fellows present: lies, twistings, unsubstantiated claims, etc. And
when called out on a fact we get massive world-wide conspiracy
theories. No thanks, facts please, and spare us the morbid fantasies
and dreamscape editorializing. Is that too much to ask?



-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: End of the year thoughts
In-Reply-To: codfish@netcom.com's message of Wed, 4 Jan 1995 09:36:22 GMT
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References: 
	
	
Date: Thu, 5 Jan 1995 02:13:28 GMT
Lines: 20


>Poor McGuire is a man without a country.  He's not one of us, because
>he believes the Holocaust Story but he's not one of you either, because he
>doesn't believe the Israel Story. 
>
>               Ross Vicksell

What "Israel Story"? Please refresh our collective memories...

Does McGuire now deny Israel exists and is a lie perpetuated by a
media in the death-grip of evil, mind-bending jooos? I hadn't caught
that one, I should pay more attention perhaps.



-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Military Cooperation Between Israel and Communist China
In-Reply-To: dwareing@apanix.apana.org.au's message of 5 Jan 1995 10:32:10 GMT
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References: <3e5m1s$lej@ixnews1.ix.netcom.com> 
	<3e9tvu$gj0@cronkite.cisco.com> 
	<3eghra$h5@tipellium.apana.org.au>
Date: Thu, 5 Jan 1995 02:36:03 GMT
Lines: 106


From: dwareing@apanix.apana.org.au (David Wareing)
>>Does it bother you that both the 1994 Information Please Almanac and
>>the CIA World Factbook both list polished diamonds as Israel's
>>principle export? And among the list of major exports none lists arms?
>>Actually, the CIA World Factbook lists arms as one of their major
>>*imports*.
>
>Hmm. They do indeed import a lot of arms, but they also manufacture
>a lot and are very active in the export market. Israel has a major
>military electronics industry and is known as a leader in military
>avionics and the retrofitting and upgrading of weapon systems. 
>Quite frankly, I don't believe the accuracy of the CIA factbook
>if it doesn't list Israeli arms exports. Take a look in any 
>military hardware journals - you will find Israel as a major
>provider of everything from small arms to battle tank and fighter
>upgrades.

If you have facts then do provide them, along with some reasonable
description of sources.

I don't know that making a broad statement about your personal belief
regarding the CIA factbook is really my idea of a reversal. Why don't
you believe them? Because the word "CIA" appears in the title? Why
would they publish such outrageous and apparently easy (reading your
note) to discredit lies on a matter like this? Why would they cover up
arms being Israel's principle export as Ross Vicksell claims? Just to
piss off Ross Vicksell?

I don't think so.

What do you mean by "...you will find Israel as a major provider ..."?

In what way? Define "major"? You mean they have varied products? That
they appear a lot in these un-named journals? Are these ads? What?

How can we surmise from that that the CIA is lying (and why does the
Information Please Almanac agree?) [qand in fact Israel's principle
export *is* arms?

I don't claim Israel *doesn't* export arms, I just questioned Ross
Vicksell's very factually presented statement, that Israel's
*principle* (well he says "principal") export is arms.

Now, perhaps if they were in the top two or three that would be close
enough, maybe we'd just point out that it's not *quite* principle, but
point taken. But that's not the case! Arms are not even listed among
the top several exports in either of these publications.  Apparently
Israel exports many more citrus fruits even than arms.

That's not just a little error, I am claiming that Vicksell said that
knowing he was fabricating this and only because he can't stand to
miss a chance to say something evil and nasty about all things he
perceives as Jewish. Had it been someone else I might have been a bit
kinder and just offered a correction.

But understand that this is a fellow who spends a whole of time and
energy denying that the Holocaust ever occurred and postulating
world-wide jewish conspiracies in control of anything that happens to
suit him (he even did in response to my rebuttal! He didn't have his
source, but he suggested that perhaps there was some grand conspiracy
to lie about this, gak!)

Wouldn't you agree that some simple numbers (or summaries derived from
numbers), with their sources, would go a lot further to clear this
issue than impressions such as the above? Or Ross' conspiracy
theories?

Ok, I realize you were probably just trying to be helpful, but I hope
you are beginning to understand the context you stepped into.

>Geez. I must have missed something? Either that or you have gone off
>the deep end. I've got a soft spot for Israel from way back, but
>I'm not deluding myself into thinking that they don't export
>arms or participate in activities that the US finds unsavory.

Yes, perhaps I have filled in the blanks.

And I am NOT saying Israel does not export any arms, how do we go so
easily from one extreme to the other?

I am counter-acting Ross Vicksell's claim that arms are Israel's
PRINCIPLE export. Sometimes bullshit like this sticks in people's
minds, and Ross knows that.

Note that Vicksell is a self-described "publicist" for CODOH,
``Committee for Open Debate of the Holocaust''. Basically a group
committed to denying that the Nazis had any program of murder
(commonly known as "The Holocaust") whatsoever. In fact, they blame
the US and Allies for the deaths (which according to them didn't occur
anyhow, don't ask me to try to make sense of all this) generally
referred to as "The Holocaust".

So yes, there's more to this than might meet the eye. It's the willful
spread of disinformation which Ross spends his time engaging in.

It has nothing to do with you, per se, sorry if you felt dragged in.




-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


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Article: 20999 of alt.revisionism
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Fred Leuchter (was Re: Revisionist answers)
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
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Date: Thu, 5 Jan 1995 05:29:48 GMT
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Richard Schultz (schultz@garnet.berkeley.edu) wrote:
: In article ,
: Ross Vicksell  wrote:

: >Read Fred's article again.  He's quite specific.  He names names:
: >
: >   "Behind this campaign to punish me and suppress the truth about the gas
: >   chambers, have been several Jewish organizations, which have publicly
: >   vowed to silence me by destroying my ability to make a living.
: >   
: >   At the forefront of this effort has been Beate Klarsfeld. . . 

: No doubt someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I had always been
: under the impression that Beate Klarsfeld isn't Jewish.

Right, but her husband is a Jewish Survivor, of course.

: I also noticed that in this speech, Leuchter was long on Jewish conspiracies
: but short on the kind of evidence that might make him out to be something
: other than a paranoid loon.  He seems not to have noticed that he admitted
: in open court that he had no training as an engineer.  Has it ever 
: occurred to him that people who are looking to hire an engineer might
: possibly want to hire a qualified one? 

Nobody in the country was better qualified to design and service 
execution equipment than Fred, since he was the only guy around in that 
line. And the prison wardens were all pleased as punch with his services.
Then along comes the Leuchter report and the roof caves in on him.  
Reminds you of what happened to David Irving when he came out with 
Hitler's War.

:  And as I pointed out before, if
: the prison officials were lying about their relationships with him, 
: why didn't he say "here in my hand is a letter from a prison official
: who later denied having ever heard of me."  

And as I pointed out, Fred did most of his business on a "handshake" 
basis; there were often no written records.  What the officials were lying 
about was not about whether they had dealt with Fred in the past, but 
whether they had any pending dealings with him.

Also, as I said before, Fred still hoped to rebuild his shattered 
business, so he didn't want to antagonize his customers.

I'll write to Fred and see whether he wants to elaborate on why he has no 
written records of these pending deals with the prisons.

                       Ross Vicksell


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From: dmittleman@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Fred Leuchter (was Re: Revisionist answers)
Date: 5 Jan 1995 05:06 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
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In article , codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) writes...
>Richard Schultz (schultz@garnet.berkeley.edu) wrote:

>Nobody in the country was better qualified to design and service 
>execution equipment than Fred, since he was the only guy around in that 
>line. And the prison wardens were all pleased as punch with his services.
>Then along comes the Leuchter report and the roof caves in on him.  
>Reminds you of what happened to David Irving when he came out with 
>Hitler's War.

    Has it occurred to you that maybe instead of this being an anti-denier
    conspiracy it was simply that the Leuchter Report was evidence that
    Fred was a bad engineer and once this was pointed out to prison
    administration they lost interest?

>:  And as I pointed out before, if
>: the prison officials were lying about their relationships with him, 
>: why didn't he say "here in my hand is a letter from a prison official
>: who later denied having ever heard of me."  

>And as I pointed out, Fred did most of his business on a "handshake" 
>basis; there were often no written records.  What the officials were lying 
>about was not about whether they had dealt with Fred in the past, but 
>whether they had any pending dealings with him.

    Ross, most prisons are State or Federal agencies.  There are all sorts
    of contracting and procurement laws which prohibit such agencies from
    doing business on a handshake.  In the 1980s and 1990s there is
    relatively little government procurement done on a handshake anymore
    (although I do not deny there is still a strong old boy network in
    place.)  There are written records for most all government procurement
    these days.

    Further, I don't know whether you have ever had business dealings with
    prison wardens.  I have in that my research center has worked with
    prison wardens in Arizona.  I found the wardens to be among the most
    rigid and structured clients I have ever dealt with.  These were not
    the sort of people who would take liberties with procurement laws;
    As a group these were rather anal people who would dot every "i" and
    cross every "t".

    In short, I think you are pulling this "handshake" line out of thin
    air.  It doesn't ring true to me.

>Also, as I said before, Fred still hoped to rebuild his shattered 
>business, so he didn't want to antagonize his customers.

    Lotsa luck.

>I'll write to Fred and see whether he wants to elaborate on why he has no 
>written records of these pending deals with the prisons.

    Because they don't exist, me thinks.

===========================================================================
daniel david mittleman     -     danny@arizona.edu     -     (602) 621-2932


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Article: 21012 of alt.revisionism
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From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Fred Leuchter (was Re: Revisionist answers)
Date: Thu, 05 Jan 1995 10:45:29 -0500
Organization: University of Michigan
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codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) wrote:

> This is an excerpt from a speech Fred gave at the 1992 IHR conference.

>    I...have been unable to find work and have no income.
>    It does not seem that this will improve in the near future.

Ross, correct me if I'm wrong, but Leuchter derived income from this
speech.  Isn't getting paid to say "I have no income" a variation on
the Liar's Paradox?

We've heard second-hand testimony that Leuchter can visit some exclusive
clubs in his area;  presumably he's reasonably well-off.  Any comment,
Ross?  Would you characterize him as "middle-class"?  "Comfortable"?
That attorney of his whom you recently contacted -- is that attorney
on retainer?
-- 
 Jamie McCarthy   Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu   AppleLink: j.mccarthy
 "The Jewish people will be exterminated...it's in our program."  - Himmler
 "Until you find a reference to gas chambers, you can forget about long,
  drawn-out discussions of Himmler's speeches."                     - Raven


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From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Squirming?  Hardly.
Date: Thu, 05 Jan 1995 11:00:54 -0500
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codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) wrote:

> Try "Legions of Death" , written by a British Sergeant who participated 
> in the torture of Hoess, for starters.

As I've noted before, a book name is not, in my view, an appropriate
response when asked for evidence.  Perhaps you'd care to cite from
that book, Mr. Vicksell?

I have added that book to my list of things-to-look-up-next-time-I-go-
to-the-library.  Do I have a chance in hell of finding it, or is it
published by e.g. Noontide Press?
-- 
 Jamie McCarthy   Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu   AppleLink: j.mccarthy
 "The Jewish people will be exterminated...it's in our program."  - Himmler
 "Until you find a reference to gas chambers, you can forget about long,
  drawn-out discussions of Himmler's speeches."                     - Raven


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Article: 21031 of alt.revisionism
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From: choover@nyx10.cs.du.edu (Christopher Hoover)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Squirming? Hardly.
Date: 5 Jan 1995 13:31:07 -0700
Organization: University of Denver, Math/CS Dept.
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k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy) writes:

>codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) wrote:

>> Try "Legions of Death" , written by a British Sergeant who participated 
>> in the torture of Hoess, for starters.

>As I've noted before, a book name is not, in my view, an appropriate
>response when asked for evidence.  Perhaps you'd care to cite from
>that book, Mr. Vicksell?

Indeed.  A full citation wouldn't hurt, either.  Little things like
author's name, date and place of publication, the _name_ of the publishing
house:  of such things is the life of the bibliographer.  There's a reason
for it, though:  it makes things one hell of a lot easier to find. 

>I have added that book to my list of things-to-look-up-next-time-I-go-
>to-the-library.  Do I have a chance in hell of finding it, or is it
>published by e.g. Noontide Press?

Well, for what it's worth, neither copy of the Library of Congress 
database (at the LoC itself or at DRA) turns up a book by that title.  Of 
course, that's to be taken with a grain of salt:  neither database shows 
one of my father's books that came out last fall.  Nevertheless, with oh, 
say, the author's and publisher's names, a search would be so much easier....


Chris
-- 
Christopher J. Hoover    choover@nyx.cs.du.edu     Kibo flavor:  Unlisted
Disclaimer:  standard    It's *always* September, *somewhere* on the Net.


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From: misrael@scripps.edu (Mark Israel)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Squirming? Hardly.
Date: 5 Jan 1995 21:49:34 GMT
Organization: The Scripps Research Institute, La Jolla, California, USA
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In article <3ehkub$m4b@nyx10.cs.du.edu>, choover@nyx10.cs.du.edu (Christopher Hoover) writes:
> In article , codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) writes:

>> Try "Legions of Death" , written by a British Sergeant who participated 
>> in the torture of Hoess, for starters.
>
> [...] neither copy of the Library of Congress database (at the LoC itself 
> or at DRA) turns up a book by that title.

Author:        Wenk, Richard.
Title:         Indiana Jones and the legion of death / by Richard Wenk ;
                 illustrated by David B. Mattingly. 1st ed. New York :
                 Ballantine Books, c1984.
Description:   120 p. : ill. ; 18 cm.

Series:        Find your fate adventure ; #6.

Notes:         Designed by Gene Siegel.

Subjects:      Plot-your-own stories.

Other entries: Mattingly, David B.
               The legion of death.
               Find your fate ; #6.

ISBN:          0345319044 : $1.95
Call numbers:  UCR   Rivera    PS3573.E59 I55 1984 Spec Coll Eaton


   This may not be the book Ross had in mind, but it's the best I could
do. :-)

--
misrael@scripps.edu			Mark Israel


From oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!juno.xana.bc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!vanbc.wimsey.com!scipio.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!mnemosyne.cs.du.edu!nyx10.cs.du.edu!not-for-mail Sun Jan  8 05:24:41 PST 1995
Article: 21054 of alt.revisionism
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From: choover@nyx10.cs.du.edu (Christopher Hoover)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Northwest Neo-Nazis
Date: 6 Jan 1995 09:32:10 -0700
Organization: University of Denver, Math/CS Dept.
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <3ejraa$3re@nyx10.cs.du.edu>
References: <3ehvrl$jev@newsbf02.news.aol.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: nyx10.cs.du.edu
X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #3 (NOV)

codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) writes:

>: white supremacist groups in the region as a tool for fighting hate-group
>: activity.
>: ...
>:  Church of Jesus Christ Christian Aryan Nations.
>:  National Socialist White People's Party.
>:  Populist Party of Washington State.
>   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>   Wonder who's next, the Libertarian Party?

Come now, Mr. Vicksell.  The Carto-inspired entity known as the "Populist
Party" bears no relationship to what most people perceive as populism, and
certainly no relationship to the historical Populist/Progressive movement
of the early 20th Century.  In 1988, I believe, the Populist Party's
candidate for President was David Duke, late of the KKK--hardly the moral
successor to William Jennings Bryan or Robert LaFollette. 

You _did_ know that, didn't you, Mr. Vicksell?  Does David Duke count as 
a White supremacist with you?

>:  Christian Patriot Association.
>:  White Aryan Resistance.
>: ...

Any comment on the _rest_ of the list, Mr. Vicksell?  Sterling, 
trustworthy fellows, those blokes in WAR, eh?



Chris
-- 
Christopher J. Hoover    choover@nyx.cs.du.edu     Kibo flavor:  Unlisted
Disclaimer:  standard    It's *always* September, *somewhere* on the Net.


From oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!codfish Sun Jan  8 05:24:42 PST 1995
Article: 21059 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!codfish
From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Northwest Neo-Nazis
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References: <3ehvrl$jev@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 1995 06:22:59 GMT
Lines: 25

Northbynw (northbynw@aol.com) wrote:
: Book Profiles Hate groups of NW
: Paul Shukovsky
: Seattle Post Intelligencer
: January 3, 1995

Looks like the PI is still the sensationalist rag it was when I lived out 
in Puget Sound area, many years ago.  Sort of comparable to the Boston 
Herald.

: Two Northwest human rights organizations have published an encyclopedia of
: white supremacist groups in the region as a tool for fighting hate-group
: activity.
: ...
:  Church of Jesus Christ Christian Aryan Nations.
:  National Socialist White People's Party.
:  Populist Party of Washington State.
   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
   Wonder who's next, the Libertarian Party?

:  Christian Patriot Association.
:  White Aryan Resistance.
: ...




From oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!codfish Sun Jan  8 05:24:43 PST 1995
Article: 21060 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!codfish
From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: DAVID IRVING TO SPEAK IN BERKELEY
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References: <3eae2h$cce@news2.delphi.com> 
Distribution: 'WORLD'
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 1995 06:27:01 GMT
Lines: 22

Thomas Doyal (doyal@eskimo.com) wrote:
: MARTELLK@DELPHI.COM (MARTELLK@news.delphi.com) wrote:
: : On October 13, 1994, a riot broke out when the British Historian David 
: : Irving spoke in Berkeley.  Irving was re-invited to speak at the UC 
: : Berkeley campus by the Berkeley Free Speech Coalition, a registered  
: : student group.  The UC administration, under pressure from Rabbi Rona 
: : Shapiro of the Berkeley Hillel and others cancelled his campus 
: : appearance.  The student group appealed the decision, and have been 
: : granted the right to invite Irving to speak sometime in early February 
: : 1995.  We are looking for a historian to debate Mr. Irving concerning the 
: : Holocaust.  We believe that the best way to resolve controversial issues, 
: : is not to supress free speech, but to engage in  discussion and debate.  
: : Any assistance in locating a suitable speaker will be appreciated.

: Have you tried Debra Lipstad?

: Doyal@eskimo.com


    Touche!

    Ross Vicksell


From oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!codfish Sun Jan  8 05:24:44 PST 1995
Article: 21061 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!codfish
From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: French snipe Americans
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References:  
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 1995 06:32:52 GMT
Lines: 19

Jamie McCarthy (k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu) wrote:
: doyal@eskimo.com (Thomas Doyal) wrote:

: > All this and more can be found in a report by John Eisenhower to SHAEF in
: > the Dwight D Eisenhower Library, Abilene, Kansas. 

: Not an acceptable cite, not by a long shot.  I don't live anywhere near
: Kansas.  If that library will mail me photocopies, that's fine, but I
: imagine they'll need me to be a bit more specific than "a report by John
: Eisenhower to SHAEF."

: Try again, Doyal.  Where did _you_ find this information?  Presumably
: not in that library in Kansas.  Just give me the source or sources _you_
: have.

Doyal was there, of course, at the the time, in the American Army.  That 
should count for something.

                   Ross Vicksell


From oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!juno.xana.bc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!vanbc.wimsey.com!scipio.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!codfish Sun Jan  8 05:24:45 PST 1995
Article: 21064 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!juno.xana.bc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!vanbc.wimsey.com!scipio.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!codfish
From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Northwest Neo-Nazis
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References: <3ehvrl$jev@newsbf02.news.aol.com>  <3ejraa$3re@nyx10.cs.du.edu>
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 1995 18:32:22 GMT
Lines: 26

Christopher Hoover (choover@nyx10.cs.du.edu) wrote:
: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) writes:

: >: white supremacist groups in the region as a tool for fighting hate-group
: >: activity.
: >: ...
: >:  Church of Jesus Christ Christian Aryan Nations.
: >:  National Socialist White People's Party.
: >:  Populist Party of Washington State.
: >   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
: >   Wonder who's next, the Libertarian Party?

: Come now, Mr. Vicksell.  The Carto-inspired entity known as the "Populist
: Party" bears no relationship to what most people perceive as populism, and
: certainly no relationship to the historical Populist/Progressive movement
: of the early 20th Century.  In 1988, I believe, the Populist Party's
: candidate for President was David Duke, late of the KKK--hardly the moral
: successor to William Jennings Bryan or Robert LaFollette. 

FYI, there was a split in the Populist Party a while back.  The Carto
faction is now called the "Populist Action Committee," I believe.  And
anyway, David Duke has acquired a more respectable image since he shaved
off his mustache.  Sort of reminds me of the 1968 "Clean for Gene"
campaign. And remember, Hugo Black was a KKK alumnus, too.

                Ross Vicksell


From oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!juno.xana.bc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!vanbc.wimsey.com!scipio.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!codfish Sun Jan  8 05:34:23 PST 1995
Article: 21066 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!juno.xana.bc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!vanbc.wimsey.com!scipio.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!codfish
From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: French snipe Americans
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References:  
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 1995 22:45:10 GMT
Lines: 24

Jamie McCarthy (k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu) wrote:
: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) wrote:

: > Doyal was there, of course, at the the time, in the American Army.  That 
: > should count for something.

: It should, but it doesn't;  I don't trust people that deny the Holocaust.
: Falsus in uno, falsus in omnibus, you know.  Considering I've never before
: heard that French troops shot Americans in the back near Normandy, I'm
: sure not going to take Doyal's word for it.  If it had happened on the
: scale he alleges (hundreds or thousands of murders), it would surely be
: documented by at least a few of the hundreds of thousands of other men who
: were there.  I want that documentation.

: I asked for that documentation months ago, and he promised he'd get it
: for me.  Finally he comes back with "a report by John Eisenhower to SHAEF
: in the Dwight D Eisenhower Library, Abilene, Kansas."  That is not
: acceptable documentation.

: What of the above don't you understand, Mr. Vicksell?

I think I get it all this time.  Thanks for being so patient with me.

                      Ross Vicksell


From oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!codfish Sun Jan  8 05:34:24 PST 1995
Article: 21067 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!codfish
From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Fred Leuchter (was Re: Revisionist answers)
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References:  
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 1995 07:47:48 GMT
Lines: 17

Jamie McCarthy (k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu) wrote:
: We've heard second-hand testimony that Leuchter can visit some exclusive
: clubs in his area;  presumably he's reasonably well-off.  Any comment,
: Ross?  Would you characterize him as "middle-class"?  "Comfortable"?
: That attorney of his whom you recently contacted -- is that attorney
: on retainer?

As I told you all earlier in this thread, Fred dropped out of sight last
Spring, so I really can't tell you how well off he is now.  I was probably
the last revisionist to see him. 

His mother and his aunt still live in Malden, so I'll send a letter to 
Fred via them and see what he has to say about the behavior of those 
prison wardens, if he feels like talking about it.

                    Ross Vicksell
              


From oneb!kmcvay Sun Jan  8 15:02:04 PST 1995
Article: 21068 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!kmcvay
From: kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay)
Subject: Re: Northwest Neo-Nazis
References: <3ehvrl$jev@newsbf02.news.aol.com>  <3ejraa$3re@nyx10.cs.du.edu>
Organization: The Old Frog's Almanac
Message-ID: <1995Jan08.133346.8737@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
Date: Sun, 08 Jan 95 13:33:46 GMT

In article <3ejraa$3re@nyx10.cs.du.edu> choover@nyx10.cs.du.edu (Christopher Hoover) writes:

>codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) writes:

>>: white supremacist groups in the region as a tool for fighting hate-group
>>: activity.
>>: ...
>>:  Church of Jesus Christ Christian Aryan Nations.
>>:  National Socialist White People's Party.
>>:  Populist Party of Washington State.
     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>   Wonder who's next, the Libertarian Party?

>Come now, Mr. Vicksell.  The Carto-inspired entity known as the "Populist
>Party" bears no relationship to what most people perceive as populism, and
>certainly no relationship to the historical Populist/Progressive movement
>of the early 20th Century.  In 1988, I believe, the Populist Party's
>candidate for President was David Duke, late of the KKK--hardly the moral
>successor to William Jennings Bryan or Robert LaFollette. 

Archive/File: fascism/usa/washington populist.0394
Last-Modified: 1994/11/24

          "Neo-Nazis Dominate Washington Populist Party

A recent listing of the officers and county chairpersons of the
Washington State Populist Party reveals that while many county
chapters are headed by racist Christian Patriots, at the state level
the party continues to be dominated by hard-core neo-Nazis and
Klansmen. As reported in the Populist Observer (January 1994), the
national newspaper of the far-right Populist Party, the state party
officers are:

Chair:		Harry Schmidt (Seattle)
Vice-Chair:	Mark Downey (Puyallup)
Secretary/Treasurer:
		Barbara BEnce (Kitsap County)
National Committeeman:
		K.A. (Kim) Badynski (Tacoma)

Schmidt, an ardent neo-Nazi who likes to describe the Nazi swastika
as an 'early Christian symbol,' took over the state chair in 1991
from Pierce County Christian Patriot Thorn Lovelace and has held it
ever since. In addition to his state position, Schmidt was voted a
member of the National Populist Party's executive committee in 1993.

The remaining three state officers hail from the Klan dominated
Pierce/Kitsap chapter of the party - the state party's most radical
county affiliate. Badynski, the Grand Dragon of the Northwest
Knights of the Ku Klux Klan has held the national committeeman
position for five years, while Bence has long served as the party's
secretary-treasurer.

Mark Downey is a recent addition to the slate of state party
officers, though he is a long-time Populist Party activist. Downey
is a close associate of Badynski and a hard-core neo-Nazi who veils
his Hitler worship behind the veneer of the equally repugnant
pseudo-theology of Christian Identity. Downey is presently peddling
a booklet titled 'Will the Real Armageddon Please Stand Up?'
According to an ad in the Populist Observer the book includes
'Twenty-nine pages of concise evidence for the Christian Israel
Identity message.' Badynski, Downey and Schmidt have all attended
gathering to celebrate the birthday of Adolph Hitler.

The neo-Nazi domination of the state party is only partially
mirrored in the leadership at the county level. The county
chairpersons for the state party are listed as:

Homer Brand (King),
Mark Downey, (Pierce/Kitsap)
Bill Renfro (Snohomish),
Howard Schaeffer (Cowlitz),
Herbert Weekly (Wakiakum),
Joseph Burnett (Chelam),
Bob Lynds (Stevens), and
Hazle Lindstrom (Adams).

In addition to Downey, only Chelan leader Joseph Burnett among
current county party leaders is suspected by the Dignity Report of
having neo-Nazi leanings. Burnett has reportedly attended past
gatherings at the Aryan Nations compound in Hayden Lake, Idaho. The
remainder of the county leaders are believed to be an assortment of
Christian Patriots and refugees from John Birch Society-style
conspiracy weaving.

Homer Brand, for instance, was a former leader in the Duck Club, the
Christian Patriot group linked to the 1985 murder of the Goldmark
family in Seattle. David Rice, who brutally bludgeoned the Goldmarks
to death, had attended Duck Club meetings where he became convinced
that the Goldmarks were Jewish Communists, though they were neither
Jewish nor communists. Brand was the state Populist Party's
candidate for Attorney General in 1992.

Howard Schaeffer of Longview, Washington is known for his Christian
Patriot-style rantings in numerous letters to the editor while
Herbert Weekly, Bill Renfro and Bob Lynds first came to Dignity
Report attention as activists during the 1992 presidential campaign
of James 'Bo' Gritz. All were listed with the Secretary of State as
signers to a July 1992 petition to gain ballot access for Gritz.
None are known to have ties to neo-Nazi or Klan groups.

Missing from this list is the Whatcom County chapter headed by
Christian Patriot Ben Hinkle. Hinkle reportedly left the state party
in 1992 following a bitter dispute with the Klan-led faction of the
party.

While both neo-Nazis and Christian Patriots share a common vision of
a white dominated America, important differences exist. For
instance, while Christian Patriots would opt for a 'white Christian
Republic' in which only white property owners vote, neo-Nazis tend
to favor centralized leadership like that of the German Nazi regime
of the 1930s and 1940s.

Neo-Nazis and Christian Patriot organizations generally differ in
their internal structure and procedures as well. For instance,
Badynski's Klan faction, the Harrison, Arkansas-based Knights  of
the Ku Klux Klan has long required oaths of loyalty as a condition
of Klan membership. While Christian Patriots make oaths to the
'organic constitution,' they are known for having a rugged
individualist streak to their brand of white supremacy. The Dignity
Report does not know of a 'patriot' group which requires an oath of
allegiance similar to that in Badynski's organization. In fact, many
'patriots' criticize neo-Nazis and Klansmen for having a devotion to
their leaders above that to their 'nation.'

The co-existence of neo-Nazis, Klansmen and Christian Patriots in
the vehicle of the Populist Party is part of a development that has
occurred over the last 30 years in the U.S> white supremacy
movement. Since the days of Ku Klux Klan-led efforts to squelch
racial integration in the South in the 1950s and 1960s, Klan
membership has stayed low and has been surpassed as a component of
the racist movement by the ideologies of Christian Identity and
Christian Patriotism. Klan members make up less than a quarter of
organized racists at present.

At the same time, Klan groups such as Badynski's Knights (the Klan
group of 1970s leader David Duke) have increasingly incorporated
neo-Nazi beliefs into their ideologies. However, the relative lack
of political space for neo-Nazis vis-a-vis Identity leaders and
Christian Patriots has pushed groups like the Knights to espouse the
tenets of Christian Patriotism. As a result Badynski and the band of
neo-Nazi leaders in the Washington State Populist Party give lip
service, even amongst their own Populist cohorts, to a commitment to
the 'Christian republic' supported by the Populist Party. A cursory
listen to Badynski's Tacoma, Washington-based hate-line, with its
praise of Nazi figures such as Horst Wessel and accolades for the
'white Christian revival' of Nazi Germany tell a different, and more
accurate, story." (Dignity)


                           Work Cited
 
The Dignity Report. Publication of the Coalition for Human Dignity
Research Department. March 1, 1994, v2, n3. PO Box 40344, Portland,
Oregon, 97240. (503) 281-5823


-- 
          The Nizkor Project: An Electronic Holocaust Resource
   (For full file listing, send INDEX to listserv@oneb.almanac.bc.ca)
                     kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca
             Vancouver Island, British Columbia, CANADA


From oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!juno.xana.bc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!vanbc.wimsey.com!news.mindlink.net!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!torn!news.unb.ca!leda.sun.csd.unb.ca!t08o Sun Jan  8 15:02:05 PST 1995
Article: 21071 of alt.revisionism
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From: t08o@leda.sun.csd.unb.ca (Keith Morrison)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: French snipe Americans
Date: 6 Jan 1995 23:19:09 GMT
Organization: University of New Brunswick, Fredericton, NB, Canada
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <3ekj5d$rgu@sol.sun.csd.unb.ca>
References:   
NNTP-Posting-Host: leda.sun.csd.unb.ca

In article ,
Ross Vicksell  wrote:
>Jamie McCarthy (k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu) wrote:
>: doyal@eskimo.com (Thomas Doyal) wrote:
>
>: > All this and more can be found in a report by John Eisenhower to SHAEF in
>: > the Dwight D Eisenhower Library, Abilene, Kansas. 
>
>: Not an acceptable cite, not by a long shot.  I don't live anywhere near
>: Kansas.  If that library will mail me photocopies, that's fine, but I
>: imagine they'll need me to be a bit more specific than "a report by John
>: Eisenhower to SHAEF."
>
>: Try again, Doyal.  Where did _you_ find this information?  Presumably
>: not in that library in Kansas.  Just give me the source or sources _you_
>: have.
>
>Doyal was there, of course, at the the time, in the American Army.  That 
>should count for something.
>
>                   Ross Vicksell

Why?  It has not helped him in any "debate" he's tried to start so
far.  I mean, I was in the Canadian Forces during the Gulf War but
that does not give me any authority if I say, for example, that
there was in fact no war and the whole thing was a plot concocted by
Israel, Saudi Arabia and the US so Patriot missiles could be shipped
over there without any need top worry about people questioning arms
shipments.

Actually, I'm sorry I just said that.  Someone will probably use it
as the basis for a conspiracy theory.

--
Keith Morrison  |  I KNOW THE TRUTH!  JFK WAS KILLED BY ZETA RETICULANS
t08o@unb.ca     |  BASED AT NAZI HIDEOUTS AT THE SOUTH POLE!


From oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!juno.xana.bc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!swiss.ans.net!jabba.cybernetics.net!cybernetics.net!chip Sun Jan  8 15:52:41 PST 1995
Article: 21073 of alt.revisionism
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From: chip@cybernetics.net (Chip Salzenberg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: French snipe Americans
Date: 6 Jan 1995 18:15:38 GMT
Organization: Creative Cybernetics, Inc.
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <3ek1ca$7gj@jabba.cybernetics.net>
References:   
NNTP-Posting-Host: server0.cybernetics.net

According to codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell):
>Jamie McCarthy (k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu) wrote:
>: Try again, Doyal.  Where did _you_ find this information?  Presumably
>: not in that library in Kansas.  Just give me the source or sources _you_
>: have.
>
>Doyal was there, of course, at the the time, in the American Army.  That 
>should count for something.

He referred to a report.  Unless he was there to see the original
report -- which he didn't claim in his article -- his presence in the
Army is irrelevant.
-- 
              Chip Salzenberg, aka 
  "Don't move!"  *BANG*  "You have the right to remain silent!"  *BANG!*
    "Anything you say can and will be used against you!"  *SPLASH*
               -- Tom Servo, MST3K: "High School Bigshot"


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Article: 21077 of alt.revisionism
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From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: French snipe Americans
Date: Fri, 06 Jan 1995 13:12:01 -0500
Organization: University of Michigan
Lines: 24
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References: 
   
   
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codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) wrote:

> Doyal was there, of course, at the the time, in the American Army.  That 
> should count for something.

It should, but it doesn't;  I don't trust people that deny the Holocaust.
Falsus in uno, falsus in omnibus, you know.  Considering I've never before
heard that French troops shot Americans in the back near Normandy, I'm
sure not going to take Doyal's word for it.  If it had happened on the
scale he alleges (hundreds or thousands of murders), it would surely be
documented by at least a few of the hundreds of thousands of other men who
were there.  I want that documentation.

I asked for that documentation months ago, and he promised he'd get it
for me.  Finally he comes back with "a report by John Eisenhower to SHAEF
in the Dwight D Eisenhower Library, Abilene, Kansas."  That is not
acceptable documentation.

What of the above don't you understand, Mr. Vicksell?
-- 
 Jamie McCarthy   Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu   AppleLink: j.mccarthy
 "The Jewish people will be exterminated...it's in our program."  - Himmler
 "Until you find a reference to gas chambers, you can forget about long,
  drawn-out discussions of Himmler's speeches."                     - Raven


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Article: 21080 of alt.revisionism
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From: jdolan@math.UCR.EDU (james dolan)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Northwest Neo-Nazis
Date: 6 Jan 1995 18:46:18 -0800
Organization: fair play for neptune committee
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donald moffitt writes:


>Not that it matters much to the subject of this newsgroup, but for the
>record there was always a strong thread of racism in the old Populist
>movement,


it's a good rule of thumb to be wary of any political movement whose
name contains words like "populist", "people's", "volk-", "nati-", or
similar such words.



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Article: 21082 of alt.revisionism
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From: donald05@pipeline.com (Donald Moffitt)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Northwest Neo-Nazis
Date: 6 Jan 1995 14:53:51 -0500
Organization: Pipeline
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In alt.revisionism codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) said: 
 
 
> 
> 
>Christopher Hoover (choover@nyx10.cs.du.edu) wrote: : codfish@netcom.com
(Ross  
>Vicksell) writes: 
> 
>: >: white supremacist groups in the region as a tool for fighting
hate-group 
>: >: activity. 
>: >: ... 
>: >:  Church of Jesus Christ Christian Aryan Nations. 
>: >:  National Socialist White People's Party. 
>: >:  Populist Party of Washington State. 
>: >   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 
>: >   Wonder who's next, the Libertarian Party? 
> 
>: Come now, Mr. Vicksell.  The Carto-inspired entity known as the
"Populist 
>: Party" bears no relationship to what most people perceive as populism,
and 
>: certainly no relationship to the historical Populist/Progressive
movement 
>: of the early 20th Century.  In 1988, I believe, the Populist Party's 
>: candidate for President was David Duke, late of the KKK--hardly the
moral 
>: successor to William Jennings Bryan or Robert LaFollette.  
> 
>FYI, there was a split in the Populist Party a while back.  The Carto
faction  
>is now called the "Populist Action Committee," I believe.  And anyway,
David  
>Duke has acquired a more respectable image since he shaved off his
mustache.   
>Sort of reminds me of the 1968 "Clean for Gene" campaign. And remember,
Hugo  
>Black was a KKK alumnus, too. 
> 
>                Ross Vicksell 
 
Not that it matters much to the subject of this newsgroup, but for the
record there was always a strong thread of racism in the old Populist
movement, growing out of the antiforeign and anti-Catholic Knownothingism
that preceded it.  Certainly there was a strong element of anti-Semitism in
the pre-World War II connivance between people like Charles Lindbergh, the
Midwestern Isolationists and Populists and the German-American Bund.  The
fact is, if you hated Europeans, Jews, Catholics, Wall Street, the British
and the Communists, real or suspected, you could very easily be taken for a
Populist!  And you may very well have been one.   None of this has much to
do with the Holocaust, certainly; but just remember, the distinction
between "populist" movements and lynch mobs sometimes gets pretty
metaphysical.  Movements of these types, if they hope to go anywhere,
usually employ public relations techniques to clean up their lynch-mob
image.  Hitler had a German-American Harvard buddy of FDR's, a descendant
of two American Civil War generals and of the guy who commanded the black
Massachusetts regiment in that war,as his PR man for quite a while.  (In
case you're wondering why the SS bands played Harvard football songs, it
wasn't because Harvard had swiped them all from Heidelberg; some of them
*were* Harvard football songs that Hitler's PR man had written in his
undergraduate days there).  Gutes neues Jahr! 


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Article: 21090 of alt.revisionism
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From: jeff_brown@pol.com (Jeffrey G. Brown)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Northwest Neo-Nazis
Date: 7 Jan 1995 03:59:49 GMT
Organization: Internet Access Cincinnati 513-887-8877
Lines: 23
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In article , codfish@netcom.com (Ross
Vicksell) wrote:

> Northbynw (northbynw@aol.com) wrote:
> : Book Profiles Hate groups of NW
> : Paul Shukovsky
> : Seattle Post Intelligencer
> : January 3, 1995
> 
> Looks like the PI is still the sensationalist rag it was when I lived out 
> in Puget Sound area, many years ago.  Sort of comparable to the Boston 
> Herald.

Do you have any solid evidence that anything in the original story is
incorrect, or are you simply running off at the mouth as usual, Vicksell?

State your case and the evidence for it... if any.

JGB

=====================================================================
Jeffrey G. Brown                                   jeff_brown@pol.com
 "What's going to happen?"   "Something wonderful..."   -- '2010'


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Article: 21091 of alt.revisionism
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From: jeff_brown@pol.com (Jeffrey G. Brown)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: French snipe Americans
Date: 7 Jan 1995 04:17:55 GMT
Organization: Internet Access Cincinnati 513-887-8877
Lines: 47
Message-ID: 
References:   
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In article , codfish@netcom.com (Ross
Vicksell) wrote:

> Jamie McCarthy (k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu) wrote:

>[...deletia...]

> : Try again, Doyal.  Where did _you_ find this information?  Presumably
> : not in that library in Kansas.  Just give me the source or sources _you_
> : have.
> 
> Doyal was there, of course, at the the time, in the American Army.  That 
> should count for something.

Bzzzzzt... thank you for playing.

Nope, "being there" counts for nothing, Vicksell. (Wasn't 'Being There'
the movie in which Peter Sellers played a TV-addicted simpleton who was
eventually nominated for President?)

Two reasons:

(1) 'Doyal' as manifested here is simply a data stream. We do not know
who, what, or where he is. We have no independent confirmation of his
identity, his origins, or his personal history. Thus any statements made
on his 'authority' as a WWII veteran are null and void -- the 'authority'
cannot be verified.

(2) Assume that Doyal _was_ in the US Army during WWII. Assume even that
he was in Europe. Where in Europe? Last I heard, it was a pretty big place
at the end of WWII, with the US Army swarming all over it like ants.
Knowing nothing at all about Doyal's service record (from a source
independent of Doyal, of course -- Doyal himself can, naturally, be
expected to say that he was right there and saw it all with his own eyes),
how can we say with any certainty that he is providing accurate
information without independent confirmation of his statements?

Who you are, where you've been, or what you've seen is irrelevant here in
cyberspace. What is important is the quality of your ideas, and the extent
to which they will withstand challenge. Doyal fails miserably in both
regards.

JGB

=====================================================================
Jeffrey G. Brown                                   jeff_brown@pol.com
 "What's going to happen?"   "Something wonderful..."   -- '2010'


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Article: 21092 of alt.revisionism
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From: freedman@software.mitel.com (Gordon Freedman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Letter in Maclean's
Date: 6 Jan 1995 12:30:52 -0500
Organization: Mitel Corporation
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X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL0]

Mark C. Chu-Carroll (carroll@dobie.cis.udel.edu) wrote:
: Revisionism *is* motivated by antisemitism, and anyone who buys into
: it is either an antisemite or a fool.

Unfairly, you have left out the possibility that "anyone who buys into
it is" both an antisemite and a fool.
-- 

Gordon Freedman
These opinions are not those of my employer.


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Article: 21103 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Northwest Neo-Nazis
In-Reply-To: codfish@netcom.com's message of Fri, 6 Jan 1995 18:32:22 GMT
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References: <3ehvrl$jev@newsbf02.news.aol.com> 
	<3ejraa$3re@nyx10.cs.du.edu> 
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 1995 22:24:09 GMT
Lines: 28


From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
>And
>anyway, David Duke has acquired a more respectable image since he shaved
>off his mustache. 

Bullshit, Duke's campaign offices were being used as the offices of
the "National Association for the Advancement of White People" even as
he was claiming he'd changed.

Now maybe some will react to "NAAWP" as something with some
sympathizable mission but their main thrust was to divide the United
States into several independent countries and force people of various
races to live in particular ones. So there'd be an all white country
and an all black and an all hispanic etc.

Duke and his followers are total nut-cases.

They have every constitutional right to warn us that they are nut
cases, but "respectable image"? Hah!

The apple hasn't fallen far from the tree.

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


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Article: 21156 of alt.revisionism
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From: stschulz@informatik.uni-kl.de (Stephan Schulz)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Squirming?  Hardly.
Date: 7 Jan 1995 19:33:19 GMT
Organization: Universitaet Kaiserslautern
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In article , k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy) writes:
|> codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) wrote:
|> 
|> > Try "Legions of Death" , written by a British Sergeant who participated 
|> > in the torture of Hoess, for starters.

[...]
|> I have added that book to my list of things-to-look-up-next-time-I-go-
|> to-the-library.  Do I have a chance in hell of finding it, or is it
|> published by e.g. Noontide Press?

Well, I don't know about it being published anywhere, and neither does
the LOCIS catalogue of the Library of Congress....

I browsed it for both "Legion of" and "Legions of", and the best I
found was "Legions of purgatory and hell" and "Legion of Christ's
Witnesses", respectively. There also is "Legion of super-heroes" in
there, but somehow I doubt that this is it.

Once more, an excellent datapoint by a revisionist ;-)


Stephan

-------------------------- It can be done! ---------------------------------
    Please email me as stschulz@informatik.uni-kl.de (Stephan Schulz)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------



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From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie R. McCarthy)
Subject: Join in the "debate," Mr. Vicksell
Message-ID: <1995Jan9.051045.14863@hobbes.kzoo.edu>
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Organization: Kalamazoo College, Kalamazoo MI 49006
References:  <3ephu2$3j3@cmcl2.NYU.EDU> 
Date: Mon, 9 Jan 1995 05:10:45 GMT
Lines: 35

bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein) writes:
>
>: : >Arms have long been Israel's principal export.  
>: : >
>: : >            Ross Vicksell
>
>Had he said a major export, one of the principle exports, etc it would
>have been close enough, if not just true. But that's not what he said,
>and it wasn't an accident, he did this for propagandistic purposes,
>he is a professional propagandizer.

Or, to use his own words, his specialties are "recruiting new
revisionists for the net and indulging in occasional Israel bashing."

(See http://www.kzoo.edu/RUE2-VicksellGeneralInfo.html)

If Mr. Vicksell would like to prove himself capable of something other
than Israel-bashing, he's welcome to.  His first recruit for the net,
Jack Wikoff, dismally failed in his efforts to discuss Himmler's Poznan
speeches with me.  He barely even tried, and never responded to anything
I said.  Even Mr. Vicksell commented that he wasn't happy with the
results.

So I hereby repeat my offer to Mr. Vicksell.  He's hinted before that he
agrees with Mr. Wikoff's interpretation of the speeches, and he's also
hinted that he might argue the point with me if Mr. Wikoff proves unable
or unwilling to do so.  I'd look forward to that.

You may begin the "open debate" any time you're ready, Mr. Vicksell.

Followups are set to the appropriate group for discussion of Holocaust
revisionist nonsense:  alt.revisionism.
-- 
 Jamie McCarthy   Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu   AppleLink: j.mccarthy
 I speak only for myself.


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From: jeg0705@is.nyu.edu (Joanne E. Gerber)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.current-events,talk.politics.misc,soc.culture.taiwan,soc.culture.indian,soc.culture.vietnamese,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Military Cooperation Between Israel and Communist China
Date: 8 Jan 1995 20:28:50 GMT
Organization: New York University
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Arms have also been a principal export for the U.S., Russia/Soviet 
Union, France, and other countries...including Sweden!

Ross Vicksell 
(codfish@netcom.com) wrote: : Barry Shein (bzs@world.std.com) wrote:

: : >Arms have long been Israel's principal export.  
: : >
: : >            Ross Vicksell

: : Does it bother you that both the 1994 Information Please Almanac and
: : the CIA World Factbook both list polished diamonds as Israel's
: : principle export? And among the list of major exports none lists arms?
: : Actually, the CIA World Factbook lists arms as one of their major
: : *imports*.

: : So I'm sure you are going to provide us with the source of this bit of
: : information you posted ...

: I'm working on it.  But obviously, there are ways of cooking the 
: statistics, e.g. the Iran-Contra arms trans-shipments may have appeared 
: as imports but not exports.

:             Ross Vicksell


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From: anny@ix.netcom.com (Annie Alpert)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.current-events,talk.politics.misc,soc.culture.taiwan,soc.culture.indian,soc.culture.vietnamese,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Military Cooperation Between Israel and Communist China
Date: 10 Jan 1995 01:51:52 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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In  bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein) 
writes: 
>My contention was with Vicksell's failure to be indefinite, that is:
>
>: : >Arms have long been Israel's principal export.  
>: : >
>: : >            Ross Vicksell
>
>Had he said a major export, one of the principle exports, etc it would
>have been close enough, if not just true. But that's not what he said,
>and it wasn't an accident, he did this for propagandistic purposes,
>he is a professional propagandizer.

One might ask what Israel has to do with Holocaust denial (aka 
"Historical Revisionism").  Here is one possible answer to that 
question:

". . . You declare, my friend, that you do not hate the Jews, you are 
merely 'anti-Zionist.' And I say, let the truth ring forthfrom the high 
mountain tops, let it echo through the valleys ofGod's green earth: When 
people criticize Zionism, they meanJews--this is God's own truth.

"Antisemitism, the hatred of the Jewish people, has been and remains a 
blot on the soul of mankind.  In this we are in full agreement. So know 
also this:  anti-Zionism is inherently antisemitic, and ever will be 
so."Why is this? You know that Zionism is nothing less than the dream 
and ideal of the Jewish people returning to live in their own land. The 
Jewish people, the Scriptures tell us, once enjoyed a flourishing 
Commonwealth in the Holy Land. From this they were expelled by the Roman 
tyrant, the same Romans who cruelly murdered Our Lord. Driven from their 
homeland, their nation in ashes, forced to wander the globe, the Jewish 
people time and again suffered the lash of whichever tyrant happened to 
rule over them."The Negro people, my friend, know what it is to suffer 
the torment of tyranny under rulers not of our choosing. Our brothers in 
Africa have begged, pleaded, requested--DEMANDED the recognition and 
realization of our inborn right to live in peace under our own 
sovereignty in our own country.

"How easy it should be, for anyone who holds dear this inalienable right 
of all mankind, to understand and support the right of the Jewish People 
to live in their ancient Land of Israel.  All men of good will exult in 
the fulfilment of God's promise, that his People should return in joy to 
rebuild their plundered land.  This is Zionism, nothing more, nothing 
less.

"And what is anti-Zionism?  It is the denial to the Jewish people of a 
fundamental right that we justly claim for the people of Africa and 
freely accord all other nations of the Globe.  It is discrimination 
against Jews, my friend, because they are Jews. In short, it is 
antisemitism.

"The antisemite rejoices at any opportunity to vent his malice.  The 
times have made it unpopular, in the West, to proclaim openly ahatred of 
the Jews.  This being the case, the antisemite must constantly seek new 
forms and forums for his poison.  How he must revel in the new 
masquerade!  He does not hate the Jews, he is just'anti-Zionist'!

"My friend, I do not accuse you of deliberate antisemitism. I know you 
feel, as I do, a deep love of truth and justice and a revulsion for 
racism, prejudice, and discrimination. But I know you have been 
misled--as others have been--into thinking you can be 'anti-Zionist' and 
yet remain true to these heartfelt principles that you and I share.  Let 
my words echo in the depths of your soul: When people criticize Zionism, 
they mean Jews--make no mistake about it."

(From M.L. King Jr., "Letter to an Anti-Zionist Friend," Saturday Review 
XLVII (Aug.  1967), p. 76.  Reprinted in M.L. King Jr.,This I Believe: 
Selections from the Writings of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. (New York, 
1971), pp.234-235.)



-- 
* * * * * * * * * 
Annie Alpert
"Those who do not remember the past will be forced to relive it"
                                   Georges Santanya
I'm also on PRODIGY at GMHV19A@PRODIGY.COM


From oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!uunet!world!bzs Wed Jan 11 12:21:30 PST 1995
Article: 21215 of alt.revisionism
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Military Cooperation Between Israel and Communist China
In-Reply-To: jeg0705@is.nyu.edu's message of 8 Jan 1995 20:28:50 GMT
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References: <3e5m1s$lej@ixnews1.ix.netcom.com> 
	 
	<3ephu2$3j3@cmcl2.NYU.EDU>
Date: Mon, 9 Jan 1995 00:36:24 GMT
Lines: 43


My contention was with Vicksell's failure to be indefinite, that is:

: : >Arms have long been Israel's principal export.  
: : >
: : >            Ross Vicksell

Had he said a major export, one of the principle exports, etc it would
have been close enough, if not just true. But that's not what he said,
and it wasn't an accident, he did this for propagandistic purposes,
he is a professional propagandizer.

Given his Holocaust denier status, his claim of being a "publicist"
for a group which denies the holocaust (CODOH), his frequent forays
into somehow tying this together with his criticisms of current-day
Israel (as if that proves whether the holocaust occurred or not, no,
it's just generalized jew-bashing that virtually all holocaust deniers
seem consumed with, vague attempts at discrediting anything even
remotely jewish) I felt it warranted to hold him to a precise standard
of what he said, not what he might have said.

That is, he said "Arms have long been Israel's principal [sic]
export."

That statement is not true.

When asked for his sources he promised them and then they never
appeared. That's also typical of holocaust deniers' behavior, you ask
them for a source for some statement they make and the request is
either ignored or begged or allusions to sources are made but somehow
never appear.

>Arms have also been a principal export for the U.S., Russia/Soviet 
>Union, France, and other countries...including Sweden!

Indeed, but these fellows have only one obsession, and none of that
matters to them. He wasn't trying to be educational.

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


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Article: 21223 of alt.revisionism
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From: jeff_brown@pol.com (Jeffrey G. Brown)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Northwest Neo-Nazis
Date: 8 Jan 1995 05:18:09 GMT
Organization: Internet Access Cincinnati 513-887-8877
Lines: 18
Message-ID: 
References: <3ehvrl$jev@newsbf02.news.aol.com>  <3ejraa$3re@nyx10.cs.du.edu> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: ip041220.iac.net

In article , codfish@netcom.com (Ross
Vicksell) wrote:

> FYI, there was a split in the Populist Party a while back.  The Carto
> faction is now called the "Populist Action Committee," I believe.  And
> anyway, David Duke has acquired a more respectable image since he shaved
> off his mustache.  Sort of reminds me of the 1968 "Clean for Gene"
> campaign. And remember, Hugo Black was a KKK alumnus, too.

And that little nugget about Hugo Black proves exactly what about David
Duke, Willis Carto, the Populist Party, and/or the Populist Action
Committee?

JGB

=====================================================================
Jeffrey G. Brown                                   jeff_brown@pol.com
 "What's going to happen?"   "Something wonderful..."   -- '2010'


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Article: 21227 of alt.revisionism
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From: stschulz@informatik.uni-kl.de (Stephan Schulz)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.current-events,talk.politics.misc,soc.culture.taiwan,soc.culture.indian,soc.culture.vietnamese,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Military Cooperation Between Israel and Communist China
Date: 8 Jan 1995 16:41:38 GMT
Organization: Universitaet Kaiserslautern
Lines: 57
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <3ep4k2$182@irz1.informatik.uni-kl.de>
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NNTP-Posting-Host: isis.informatik.uni-kl.de

In article , bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein) writes:
|> 
|> From: dwareing@apanix.apana.org.au (David Wareing)
|> >>Does it bother you that both the 1994 Information Please Almanac and
|> >>the CIA World Factbook both list polished diamonds as Israel's
|> >>principle export? And among the list of major exports none lists arms?
|> >>Actually, the CIA World Factbook lists arms as one of their major
|> >>*imports*.
|> >
|> >Hmm. They do indeed import a lot of arms, but they also manufacture
|> >a lot and are very active in the export market. Israel has a major
|> >military electronics industry and is known as a leader in military
|> >avionics and the retrofitting and upgrading of weapon systems. 

[...]

|> If you have facts then do provide them, along with some reasonable
|> description of sources.


Hi Barry,

you know that I am no friend of Vicksel, but this time you are a
little bit overeacting. Of course Vicksels statement is, as usual,
highly unreliable and propagandistic. However, while weapons are not
Israels main (or principal) export, it is well known that Israel is
indeed a major arms exporter (and probably often even exports arms on
request of US organizations if it is politically difficult for the US
to provide the weapons).

I do not know which edition of the CIA world factbook you have, but my
copy (1991) states this quite clearly (In the "Economy" section):

> ...Diamonds, high-technology machinery, and agricultural products
               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> (fruits and vegetables) are the biggest export earners.
> ... To earn needed foreign exchange, Israel must continue  
> to exploit high-technology niches in the international market, such
> as medical scanning equipment. 

You cand guess what the other "high-technology niches" are. However,
the text clears this up under the "Export" heading:

> Exports: $10.7 billion (f.o.b., 1989);
> 
> commodities--polished diamonds, citrus and other fruits, textiles
> and clothing, processed foods, fertilizer and chemical products,
> military hardware, electronics;
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^  ^^^^^^^^^^^


Stephan

-------------------------- It can be done! ---------------------------------
    Please email me as stschulz@informatik.uni-kl.de (Stephan Schulz)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------



From oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!codfish Thu Jan 12 05:22:37 PST 1995
Article: 21240 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: End of the year thoughts
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References: <19575FPCQKFYRWHTGSF@kbbs.com> <5JAN199505102179@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu>
Date: Tue, 10 Jan 1995 07:11:57 GMT
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Daniel Mittleman (dmittleman@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu) wrote:
:     These deniers have chosen to call themselves revisionists.  Just as the
:     pro-life movement is not necessarily pro-life, these revisionists are
:     not necessarily revisionists.

  Lost me there Danny.  The "pro-lifers" are sticking up for the sanctity
of a lifeform, whether you want to call it a fetus or an unborn baby. 
Why isn't this pro-life?" 


:     For the most part they are deniers in revisionist clothing.

: ===========================================================================
: daniel david mittleman     -     danny@arizona.edu     -     (602) 621-2932

                      Ross Vicksell


From oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!nic-nac.CSU.net!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcomsv!netcom.com!codfish Thu Jan 12 05:22:38 PST 1995
Article: 21241 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Military Cooperation Between Israel and Communist China
Message-ID: 
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References: <3e5m1s$lej@ixnews1.ix.netcom.com>  
Date: Tue, 10 Jan 1995 07:26:48 GMT
Lines: 10

So I overstated the case when I said arms had long been Israel's 
principal export.  Apparently they upped their swords into plowshares 
activity somewhere along the way, a development which I surely applaud, 
old peacenik that I am.

Nevertheless, I'm reasonably sure that at some point in the recent past
arms were indeed their principal export.  I'll try to find out exactly
when that was. 

                   Ross Vicksell


From oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!newsserver.jvnc.net!netnews.summit.novell.com!netnews.summit.novell.com!snowtown!mattk Fri Jan 13 15:05:33 PST 1995
Article: 21272 of alt.revisionism
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From: mattk@summit.novell.com (Kaufman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Northwest Neo-Nazis
Date: 10 Jan 1995 22:29:47 GMT
Organization: Novell
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Jeffrey G. Brown (jeff_brown@pol.com) wrote:
: In article , codfish@netcom.com (Ross
: Vicksell) wrote:

: > FYI, there was a split in the Populist Party a while back.  The Carto
: > faction is now called the "Populist Action Committee," I believe.  And
: > anyway, David Duke has acquired a more respectable image since he shaved
: > off his mustache.  Sort of reminds me of the 1968 "Clean for Gene"
: > campaign. And remember, Hugo Black was a KKK alumnus, too.

: And that little nugget about Hugo Black proves exactly what about David
: Duke, Willis Carto, the Populist Party, and/or the Populist Action
: Committee?

: JGB


Or, perhaps a bit more pointedly: Ross, what the f**k are you talking about?
The fact that David Duke shaved his moustache means he's no longer
a white supremacist? Or is it that the "Clean for Gene" campaign members
were all KKK types in 1968? Or did Hugo Black have a moustache? Did he
shave it prior to joining the supreme court? Or is it KKK alumna are all
'good guys?' 

Ross, this statement you made - is it a joke? Sometimes your posted
opinions are so, well, unusual that its hard to follow what you're getting
at, if anything.

Matt
--
"It was fun."       |copyright 1995, mattk@summit.novell.com. All rights
                    |reserved. Permission for reproduction by USENET and like
"Oh. My."           |free facilities explicitly allowed. No other reproduction
                    |rights are granted or implied.


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Article: 21275 of alt.revisionism
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: End of the year thoughts
Date: 10 Jan 1995 10:46 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
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In article , codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) writes...
>Daniel Mittleman (dmittleman@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu) wrote:
>:     These deniers have chosen to call themselves revisionists.  Just as the
>:     pro-life movement is not necessarily pro-life, these revisionists are
>:     not necessarily revisionists.

>  Lost me there Danny.  The "pro-lifers" are sticking up for the sanctity
>of a lifeform, whether you want to call it a fetus or an unborn baby. 
>Why isn't this pro-life?" 

    The pro-lifers have applied that label to their position on abortion,
    but their positions (there are several pro-life camps) like all other
    positions on abortion trades off existence of lives and qualitiy of
    lives in some fairly complex ways.  Pro-life is simply a label which
    positions them for propoganda purposes, not necessarily an accurate
    depiction of their stands on the entire matter.

    Same thing holds for the pro-choice label.  IMHO

    To take this back to the original point, I think you and Raven and
    several others posting here know full well the Nazi holocaust happened
    more or less as the historical null hypothesis states it.  You, I
    think, are using the ruse of historical revisionism to advance a
    political agenda.  I call you deniers; I might also call you
    propogandists, or spin-doctors.  All of these labels are more
    appropriate than that of historical revisionist.

===========================================================================
daniel david mittleman     -     danny@arizona.edu     -     (602) 621-2932


From oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!sunserver.insinc.net!news.sprintlink.net!hookup!uwm.edu!msunews!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!yarrina.connect.com.au!wraith.internode.com.au!tipellium.apanix.apana.org.au!usenet Sat Jan 14 05:38:35 PST 1995
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From: dwareing@apanix.apana.org.au (David Wareing)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.current-events,talk.politics.misc,soc.culture.taiwan,soc.culture.indian,soc.culture.vietnamese,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Military Cooperation Between Israel and Communist China
Date: 12 Jan 1995 05:48:39 GMT
Organization: Apanix Public Access Unix, +61 8 373 5485 (5 lines)
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NNTP-Posting-Host: seldon.apanix.apana.org.au

stschulz@informatik.uni-kl.de (Stephan Schulz) writes:

>In article , bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein) writes:
>|> 
>|> From: dwareing@apanix.apana.org.au (David Wareing)
>|> >>Does it bother you that both the 1994 Information Please Almanac and
>|> >>the CIA World Factbook both list polished diamonds as Israel's
>|> >>principle export? And among the list of major exports none lists arms?
>|> >>Actually, the CIA World Factbook lists arms as one of their major
>|> >>*imports*.
>|> >
>|> >Hmm. They do indeed import a lot of arms, but they also manufacture
>|> >a lot and are very active in the export market. Israel has a major
>|> >military electronics industry and is known as a leader in military
>|> >avionics and the retrofitting and upgrading of weapon systems. 

>|> If you have facts then do provide them, along with some reasonable
>|> description of sources.

Hmm, I've only just caught this followup to my own via someone else.
Net.lag must be pretty bad at the moment.

I take it that Barry Shein is asking me to prove my statement that
Israel are very active arms exporters? Well, I don't have any CIA
yearbooks on hand (not that it would do much good) but you can check
quite easily by yourself. Check out any professional military
magazine or journal, especially those relating to technical subjects.
You will find that most such magzines are filled with full page 
colour glossies from just about every major arms producer, and Israel
is no exception.

Israeli arms companies advertise in military-centric journals on 
shipping, aviation, electronics, logistics etc. You can also send
away for convention and trade show listings and see how many
Israeli companies are represented at such events.

In short, defence is a big business in Israel. I really don't know
why this would be a surprise to anyone. A small country doesn't 
develop something like the Lavi without a significant defence
industry, with or without truckloads of US money.


From oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!sunserver.insinc.net!news.sprintlink.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!news.itd.umich.edu!pm005-09.dialip.mich.net!user Sat Jan 14 05:38:35 PST 1995
Article: 21297 of alt.revisionism
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From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Military Cooperation Between Israel and Communist China
Date: Wed, 11 Jan 1995 06:41:30 -0500
Organization: University of Michigan
Lines: 22
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References: <3e5m1s$lej@ixnews1.ix.netcom.com>
   
   
   
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm005-09.dialip.mich.net

codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) wrote:

> ...I'm reasonably sure that at some point in the recent past
> arms were indeed their principal export.  I'll try to find out exactly
> when that was. 

Mr. Vicksell, I'd much rather that you put your energy toward something
relatively productive and meaningful, like taking part in some of the
Holocaust-related debate that echoes through alt.revisionism every day.

We all realize that you dislike Israel, and we realize that isn't likely
to change any time soon.  There's no need to continue with your bashing;
we get the point.

Taking up an issue or two, something substantive related to your claim
that the Nazis never killed millions of Jews, would demonstrate that
you're serious about wanting "open debate."
-- 
 Jamie McCarthy   Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu   AppleLink: j.mccarthy
 "The Jewish people will be exterminated...it's in our program."  - Himmler
 "Until you find a reference to gas chambers, you can forget about long,
  drawn-out discussions of Himmler's speeches."                     - Raven


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Article: 21299 of alt.revisionism
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From: stara@fas.harvard.edu (Felix Vagabond)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: End of the year thoughts
Date: 11 Jan 1995 02:05:34 GMT
Organization: Harvard University, Cambridge, Massachusetts
Lines: 40
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Ross Vicksell (codfish@netcom.com) wrote:
: Daniel Mittleman (dmittleman@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu) wrote:
: :     These deniers have chosen to call themselves revisionists.  Just as the
: :     pro-life movement is not necessarily pro-life, these revisionists are
: :     not necessarily revisionists.

:   Lost me there Danny.  The "pro-lifers" are sticking up for the sanctity
: of a lifeform, whether you want to call it a fetus or an unborn baby. 
: Why isn't this pro-life?" 

Ross I'm at lost as well here with you! Oh please then tell me where do 
you stand?  letUs leave religious argument aside now and concentrate on 
people who are neither pro nor con on this abortion issue.  
Born/unborn/male/female/race/color is any of this would be considered by 
your standard to be a human being and deserve to live? You said Rsanctity 
of a life formS does this apply as well to those who died for no other 
reason but in a belief? Can you separate and divide who should and who 
shouldnUt live?  As a revisionist you might be an upstanding moral human 
being who cares about her/his fellow creatures, and if so who do you 
reconcile with Nazis(crimes) or with the sanctity of a life form in any kind?





: :     For the most part they are deniers in revisionist clothing.

: : ===========================================================================
: : daniel david mittleman     -     danny@arizona.edu     -     (602) 621-2932

:                       Ross Vicksell

--
==============================================================================
  ( No memorial can ever exhibit or impart the holocaust of SIX MILLION Jews)

                   VIGILANS.ET AUDAX.SEMPER PARATUS.
              
==============================================================================



From oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!sunserver.insinc.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news1.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail Sat Jan 14 05:38:37 PST 1995
Article: 21309 of alt.revisionism
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From: mstein@access3.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: End of the year thoughts
Date: 11 Jan 1995 16:49:09 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <3f1jol$se@access3.digex.net>
References: <19575FPCQKFYRWHTGSF@kbbs.com> <5JAN199505102179@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu>  <10JAN199510461728@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access3.digex.net

In article <10JAN199510461728@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>,
Daniel Mittleman  wrote:
>In article , codfish@netcom.com 
>(Ross Vicksell) writes...
>>  Lost me there Danny.  The "pro-lifers" are sticking up for the sanctity
>>of a lifeform, whether you want to call it a fetus or an unborn baby. 
>>Why isn't this pro-life?" 
>
>    The pro-lifers have applied that label to their position on abortion,
>    but their positions (there are several pro-life camps) like all other
>    positions on abortion trades off existence of lives and qualitiy of
>    lives in some fairly complex ways.  Pro-life is simply a label which
>    positions them for propoganda purposes, not necessarily an accurate
>    depiction of their stands on the entire matter.

    To make this point crystal clear for Ross's benefit, there are
"pro-lifers" who favor the death penalty, including one who recently
decided to carry it out on a freelance basis against women seeking
abortions fairly close to Ross's own home. 

    Unless, of course, Ross denies that this happened as well, and that 
the women really died of typhus.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


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Article: 21341 of alt.revisionism
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Military Cooperation Between Israel and Communist China
In-Reply-To: dwareing@apanix.apana.org.au's message of 12 Jan 1995 05:48:39 GMT
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References: <3e5m1s$lej@ixnews1.ix.netcom.com> 
	<3e9tvu$gj0@cronkite.cisco.com> 
	<3eghra$h5@tipellium.apana.org.au> 
	<3ep4k2$182@irz1.informatik.uni-kl.de>
	<3f2frn$j96@tipellium.apana.org.au>
Date: Thu, 12 Jan 1995 04:05:39 GMT
Lines: 38


From: dwareing@apanix.apana.org.au (David Wareing)
>I take it that Barry Shein is asking me to prove my statement that
>Israel are very active arms exporters?

No, the question on the table was whether the claim that arms are
Israel's *principle* export was true or not, PRINCIPLE, that was all.

I provided two references (Information Please Almanac and the CIA
Factbook) which claimed that was not true.

You responded with some stuff about Israel does (probably?) export
arms, etc, etc.

The question was very specific and I was trying to keep the focus on
that claim. I don't believe anyone has denied that Israel exports
arms, it was the claim that it's their PRINCIPLE export that was at
issue (and apparently arms are not even one of its first few exports,
at least polished diamonds and citrus fruits have a higher dollar
value.)

As I said in the note, the point might seem picky but the claim was
made by a holocaust denier who works as a propagandist for a holocaust
denier organization and tosses out disinformation like this for
effect.

The rest of your note responds to the question that wasn't asked and
that no one is disputing.

I hope that clears this up. You didn't do anything I'm criticizing,
you just misread the question (and maybe the context.)


-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


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From: mlowe@gate.net (Morgan Lowe)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.current-events,talk.politics.misc,soc.culture.taiwan,soc.culture.indian,soc.culture.vietnamese,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Military Cooperation Between Israel and Communist China
Followup-To: alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.current-events,talk.politics.misc,soc.culture.taiwan,soc.culture.indian,soc.culture.vietnamese,alt.revisionism
Date: 12 Jan 1995 01:40:59 GMT
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Distribution: 

David Wareing (dwareing@apanix.apana.org.au) wrote:


: Hmm, I've only just caught this followup to my own via someone else.
: Net.lag must be pretty bad at the moment.

: I take it that Barry Shein is asking me to prove my statement that
: Israel are very active arms exporters? Well, I don't have any CIA
: yearbooks on hand (not that it would do much good) but you can check
: quite easily by yourself. Check out any professional military
: magazine or journal, especially those relating to technical subjects.
: You will find that most such magzines are filled with full page 
: colour glossies from just about every major arms producer, and Israel
: is no exception.

: Israeli arms companies advertise in military-centric journals on 
: shipping, aviation, electronics, logistics etc. You can also send
: away for convention and trade show listings and see how many
: Israeli companies are represented at such events.

: In short, defence is a big business in Israel. I really don't know
: why this would be a surprise to anyone. A small country doesn't 
: develop something like the Lavi without a significant defence
: industry, with or without truckloads of US money.

Defence is a big business in Israel, however this does not mean they 
export everything they make or design.  The question was concerning 
exports not on technical capability or internal budget expenditures.  
They feel they live in the midst of some very dangerous people and need 
to be armed to the teeth to protect themselves, hence the huge internal 
defence budget.  As far as exports are concerned you need to look at the 
market to determine what may be possible.  The current major buyers in 
the world are the persion gulf states and other araboc countries.  No 
sales there and no hope of sales.  Western Europe and the US are also 
buyers but mostly rely on internal sources.  Israeli exports to these 
countries are limited to mercy buys and the things that IDF make very 
well.  Some sales are possible but again avery limited market (also 
remember arab backlash if you buy IDF).  This leaves the old soviet 
empire and the far east.  In general the soviet empire has a a) alot of 
material left over, b) Islamic based republics that won't buy and c) 
don't have any money.  Far East sales are limited by the no money 
syndrome, no defence (Japan) or tied to Chinise politics.

Summary - there are some possibilities for large sales but in general the 
exporting of IDF arms is very limited thus making the statement "major" 
exporter less likely. 

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Morgan A Lowe   |  Nobody Expects the Spanish Inquisition !!!        |
| mlowe@gate.net  |                        Monty Python                |
------------------------------------------------------------------------


From oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!sunserver.insinc.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!codfish Mon Jan 16 15:00:10 PST 1995
Article: 21378 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: pro -life
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References: <19575FPCQKFYRWHTGSF@kbbs.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Jan 1995 04:33:34 GMT
Lines: 14

Michael P. Stein (mstein@access3.digex.net) wrote:

:     To make this point crystal clear for Ross's benefit, there are
: "pro-lifers" who favor the death penalty, including one who recently
: decided to carry it out on a freelance basis against women seeking
: abortions fairly close to Ross's own home. 

I'm pro-life right down the line: anti-abortion, anti-death-penalty 
(despite my sympathy for Fred Leuchter), anti-euthenasia, and anti-war.  
As for the killings in Brookline, they were of were clinic employees, not 
customers.

                   Ross Vicksell



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Article: 21379 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Military Cooperation Between Israel and Communist China
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References: <3e5m1s$lej@ixnews1.ix.netcom.com> 
	 
	
Date: Thu, 12 Jan 1995 04:10:23 GMT
>in-Reply-To: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu's message of Wed, 11 Jan 1995 06:41:30 -0500
Lines: 37


From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy)
>codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) wrote:
>
>> ...I'm reasonably sure that at some point in the recent past
>> arms were indeed their principal export.  I'll try to find out exactly
>> when that was. 
>
>Mr. Vicksell, I'd much rather that you put your energy toward something
>relatively productive and meaningful, like taking part in some of the
>Holocaust-related debate that echoes through alt.revisionism every day.

I also can't understand why Vicksell can't either just answer the
question or drop it.

Does he think he's being clever by tagging in this unfounded innuendo
even when he's proven dead wrong? He says arms are Israel's principle
export. A little research shows that's simply not true. So he says ok
maybe that's not true today but he's "reasonably sure..." blah blah
blah. What kind of crap is this?

Maybe it's true, maybe it's not, who knows? It's pretty clear that
Vicksell clings tenaciously to what he wants to believe even in the
face of facts to the contrary.

Maybe that's even more telling.

Hey, I'm REASONABLY SURE that the Nazis had a program of murder and
genocide that resulted in the death of around ten million people.

Ok? Does it work both ways? Is Vicksell satisfied now?

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


From oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!sunserver.insinc.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!codfish Mon Jan 16 15:00:12 PST 1995
Article: 21382 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: End of the year thoughts
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References: <19575FPCQKFYRWHTGSF@kbbs.com> <5JAN199505102179@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu>  <3evede$2dc@decaxp.harvard.edu>
Date: Fri, 13 Jan 1995 05:06:12 GMT
Lines: 22

Felix Vagabond (stara@fas.harvard.edu) wrote:

: Ross I'm at lost as well here with you! Oh please then tell me where do 
: you stand?  letUs leave religious argument aside now and concentrate on 

abortion is not a religious issue, it's a civil rights one, a point that 
Ronald Reagan corrected Walter Mondale on in one of their TV debates.  
(This is one of the very few things Reagan ever got right.)

: people who are neither pro nor con on this abortion issue.  
: Born/unborn/male/female/race/color is any of this would be considered by 
: your standard to be a human being and deserve to live? You said Rsanctity 
: of a life formS does this apply as well to those who died for no other 
: reason but in a belief? Can you separate and divide who should and who 
: shouldnUt live?  As a revisionist you might be an upstanding moral human 
: being who cares about her/his fellow creatures, and if so who do you 
: reconcile with Nazis(crimes) 
: or with the sanctity of a life form in any kind?

War is hell.

                        Ross Vicksell


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Article: 21389 of alt.revisionism
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From: hmazal@aol.com (HMazal)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Fred Leuchter (was Re: Revisionist answers)
Date: 12 Jan 1995 03:21:52 -0500
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
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References: 
Reply-To: hmazal@aol.com (HMazal)

Mr. Vicksell states:

>This is an excerpt from a speech Fred gave at the 1992 IHR conference.  
>I got it from Greg's www site.

(long, dull speech deleted)


This is proof?  Come now, Mr. Vicksell, a single letter, or check stub is
all you need. Not some self-pitying letter by a
self-described-but-probably-not-licensed engineer.

Harry W. mazal in San Antonio, Texas


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Article: 21390 of alt.revisionism
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From: hmazal@aol.com (HMazal)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Fred Leuchter (was Re: Revisionist answers)
Date: 12 Jan 1995 03:26:49 -0500
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
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References: 
Reply-To: hmazal@aol.com (HMazal)

Mr. Vicksell states (when identifying Jewish institutes that persecute
deniers):

>As for the involvment of the Klarsfeld Foundation, I sat next to Ms. 
>Klarsfeld herself in the courtroom in Malden....

Beate Klarsfeld is a Lutheran...


Harry W. Mazal in San Antonio, Texas


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Article: 21405 of alt.revisionism
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From: stara@fas.harvard.edu (Felix Vagabond)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Fred Leuchter (was Re: Revisionist answers)
Date: 13 Jan 1995 03:34:26 GMT
Organization: Harvard University, Cambridge, Massachusetts
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 Today in America there are holocaust deniers/hustlers who spread 
falsehood, and have developed some followers mainly through mendacity and 
fear. The falsehood craze was developed by Neu_Nazis and their brethren in 
the hoods. The holocaust is not a religion, but an event the world has 
witnessed and hope we have never to have to think about in the future(IUm 
optimistic).
 How can you tell what to believe? The answer to this question has two 
parts. First, you should know what is meant by "scientific truth." Then 
you must determine who is telling the truth.
How are scientific facts determined'? Humans have always been curious 
about tribulations and what causes them. The more we understand, of course, 
the better we can control malevolence. Down through the centuries, 
thousands of theories have been formulated to explain the reasons for 
both sane, logic, and preposterousness(madness). During the past half 
century, however, speculation has been supplanted by reliable knowledge 
based on experimentation and sound scientific experience. Armed with this 
new knowledge, scientist have been able to prevent and temper many 
afflictions in a way that seems almost miraculous.
As part of the process of scientific development, good methods have been 
developed to test whether theories are logical. The sum of these methods 
is known as the "experimental" or "scientific" method. This method is 
used to answer questions like: "If two things happen, one after the 
other, are they related?" For example, suppose you take a pill when you 
have a headache and the headache goes away one hour later. How can we 
tell whether the pill relieved you or whether the headache would have 
gone away by itself ,anyway? throughout the world, hundreds of thousands 
of scientists are working continuously to determine the boundaries of 
scientific thought.
As mountains of information are collected, how can we tell which evidence 
is valid? "Valid" means honestly collected and properly interpreted using 
valid techniques of analysis. One hallmark of a good experiment is that 
others can repeat it and get the same results.
This brings me to the question of who can best interpret experimental 
findings. Scientists are judging each other all the time. People with 
equal or ,superior training look for loopholes in each others' 
experimental techniques end design other experiments to test conclusions. 
Skilled reviewers also gather in groups whose levels of ability far 
exceed that of the average scientist. Such experts are not likely to be 
misled by poorly designed experiments. 
Among the reviewers are editors and editorial boards of scientific 
journals; these people are fully screen out invalid findings and enable 
significant ones to be published. 
Most reliable journals that cover scientific topics are listed in the 
index of scientific e.l.  When controversies arise, further research can be 
advised to settle them. Gradually a shared set of beliefs is developed 
that is felt to be scientifically accurate. Expert panels convened by 
government agencies, professional groups and other organization also 
contribute to this effort. When I speak of the Rscientific communityS I 
refer to this overall process of separating what is truly fact from what 
is not.
Three basic questions are involved in evaluating whether a HCN method works:
One of the central premises of science is that no method should he 
regarded as proven until it is actually proven.
Quacks, of course, operate outside of the scientific community( Fred 
Leuchter first comes to mind). They do not use the scientific method to 
evaluate what they see. In fact, they seldom bother to experiment at all 
and ignore the questions listed ought to be. When scientists point to 
that they are wrong, quacks try to cover up their inadequacies by 
pointing out that the scientific community has made mistakes in the past. 
This, of course, is true hut irrelevant. In recent years, the odds of 
major error by the scientific community have decreased greatly. So if you 
find someone referred to as a "scientist ahead of his time," he is 
probably a quack . Quacks may boast of "thousands of cases" in their 
files. But they won' t tell you that none of these cases separates cause 
and effect from coincidence, suggestibility or misdiagnosis. Nor do they 
ever keep score and reveal how many failures they have had for each 
"success."
Interpretation of experimental findings is not always simple. 
It's reading period now(I have to run), and I shall come back and spend 
some time on HCN hopefully before summer break.


--
==============================================================================
  ( No memorial can ever exhibit or impart the holocaust of SIX MILLION Jews)

                   VIGILANS.ET AUDAX.SEMPER PARATUS.
              
==============================================================================



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Article: 21409 of alt.revisionism
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From: stara@fas.harvard.edu (Felix Vagabond)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: pro -life
Date: 13 Jan 1995 07:26:51 GMT
Organization: Harvard University, Cambridge, Massachusetts
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <3f59vr$3a7@decaxp.harvard.edu>
References: <19575FPCQKFYRWHTGSF@kbbs.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: fas-2.harvard.edu
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]

Ross Vicksell (codfish@netcom.com) wrote:
: Michael P. Stein (mstein@access3.digex.net) wrote:

: :     To make this point crystal clear for Ross's benefit, there are
: : "pro-lifers" who favor the death penalty, including one who recently
: : decided to carry it out on a freelance basis against women seeking
: : abortions fairly close to Ross's own home. 

: I'm pro-life right down the line: anti-abortion, anti-death-penalty 
: (despite my sympathy for Fred Leuchter), anti-euthenasia, and anti-war.  
: As for the killings in Brookline, they were of were clinic employees, not 
: customers.



  Subtle endorsement Ross! Isn't for a madman?
  What is the difference between customers and employees?
  Ross this another side of you I'm learning about slowly. 



:                    Ross Vicksell


--
==============================================================================
  ( No memorial can ever exhibit or impart the holocaust of SIX MILLION Jews)

                   VIGILANS.ET AUDAX.SEMPER PARATUS.
              
==============================================================================



From oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!nic-nac.CSU.net!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!codfish Tue Jan 17 08:04:38 PST 1995
Article: 21410 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Israeli Arms Exports
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
Date: Fri, 13 Jan 1995 07:50:07 GMT
Lines: 19

According to "Dangerous Liason - The Inside Story of the U.S.-Israeli 
Covert Relationship" by Andrew and Leslie Cockburn, published in 1991 by 
Harper Collins:

"Overall, upwards of 120,000 Israelis work in the defence business. which
means about one in four families depend on it for their livelihood." 
               (p.161)

"In 1989, at least 75% of Israeli defense production had gone for export, 
..."
               (p. 349)

"The weapons trade accounts for almost 40% of Israel's export earnings..."
               (p. 7)

Presumably they're exporting less arms now than they were five years 
ago, and, as I said before, I think that's good.

                     Ross Vicksell


From oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!sunserver.insinc.net!news.sprintlink.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!uhog.mit.edu!news.kei.com!ddsw1!golux.pr.mcs.net!user Tue Jan 17 16:36:21 PST 1995
Article: 21439 of alt.revisionism
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From: golux@mcs.com (The only Golux in the World, and not a mere Device)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: End of the year thoughts
Date: Fri, 13 Jan 1995 20:51:30 -0600
Organization: MCSNet Services
Lines: 18
Message-ID: 
References: <19575FPCQKFYRWHTGSF@kbbs.com> <5JAN199505102179@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu>  <3evede$2dc@decaxp.harvard.edu> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: golux.pr.mcs.net

In article , codfish@netcom.com (Ross
Vicksell) wrote:

> abortion is not a religious issue, it's a civil rights one, a point that 
> Ronald Reagan corrected Walter Mondale on in one of their TV debates.  
> (This is one of the very few things Reagan ever got right.)

Ross, I don't want to get too far afield here, but can you explain why a
civil rights issue cannot also be a religious issue?  Why are the two
mutually exclusive?

Post/email

-- 
D. J. Schaeffer |       The Todal looks like a blob of glup.
golux@mcs.com   |     It makes a sound like rabbits screaming,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^        and smells of old, unopened rooms.
                            -- Thurber, _The 13 Clocks_


From oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!sunserver.insinc.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!codfish Tue Jan 17 19:04:49 PST 1995
Article: 21443 of alt.revisionism
Xref: oneb alt.censorship:29881 alt.revisionism:21443
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Another Developmentally Disabled Minute (was Re: historian)
Message-ID: 
Followup-To: alt.censorship,alt.revisionism
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References: <3f30a1$5hq@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> 
Date: Sat, 14 Jan 1995 03:18:16 GMT
Lines: 28

Lenore Levine (levine@symcom.math.uiuc.edu) wrote:
: cburian@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Christopher J Burian) writes:

: >...What do you call a history of Nazi Germany
: >without any views except those of sworn enemies of Nazis?  I call
: >it revisionism.  The victors write the history books, eh.  Well,
: >I imagine Professor Jeffrey is better off far from the corrupting
: >influences that infest Washington DC. 

: Thank you, Chris, for another Developmentally Disabled Minute!

: Chris Burian attends the largest institution for the developmentally
: disabled in the State of Illinois. (They even let *me* in.) UIUC
: (Universal Idiots, Urbana-Champaign) gives every one of their special
: children internet access!

: Let's hear it for Chris Burian! And, of course, the Admissions Committee.

: Lenore Levine

Ms.  Levine should be sentenced to write the school anthem 100 times on
the chalkboard: 

          We're loyal to you, Illinois!
          We're orange and blue, Illinois! ...

             Ross Vicksell
                       


From oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!sunserver.insinc.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!Germany.EU.net!EU.net!uknet!festival!hwcee!pc09.cen.hw.ac.uk!cendbj Thu Jan 19 15:26:36 PST 1995
Article: 21495 of alt.revisionism
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From: cendbj@clust.hw.ac.uk (David Johnston)
Subject: Re: Vicksell's "Logic" (was: Re: Ricky J. at Auschwitz?)
Message-ID: 
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References: <3f4lrm$95j@quartz.ucs.ualberta.ca>  <3fc284$8i0@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> <3fdp2t$fcc@thor.brunel.ac.uk> <3fdu3l$jiv@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 1995 10:35:59 GMT

In article <3fdu3l$jiv@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes:

>Everybody runs into people like Joshua here and there. A noisy, 
>stupid little brat who never amounts to anything, and takes out
>his "revenge" on the world. What a stupid little twerp like Josuha
>really wants is to stand on a platform and scream, because he
>feels the world is ignoring him. The Internet is such a platform.

>He was born a zero, he lives like a zero, and he'll die like a
>zero. In the meanwhile, he'll try to make people upset. That's the
>only thing he can do. 


>-Danny Keren.

It really doesn't seem worth trying to make Mr Joshua look stupid, since he 
does such a good job of it himself. His past references to Prisoner Cell Block 
H as proof of Jewish control of the media and two Jewish members of the German 
parliament as proof of Jewish political control are laughable. His agreement 
with Hitler likening Jews to maggots, and "Yep. You Jews have some strange 
kind of obsession with shrinks....You... have probably been brought up 
on this "shrink culture". Maybe this is why you are so pathetic." show him up 
as a nasty, paranoid little bigot.

Let him scream his little head off. Nobody is listening.

David Johnston
Heriot-Watt University
Edinburgh 



From oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!spool.mu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!codfish Thu Jan 19 19:35:04 PST 1995
Article: 21504 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: "Revisionist scholars"
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
References: <3f4lrm$95j@quartz.ucs.ualberta.ca>    <3f5oml$m11@molnir.brunel.ac.uk>    <3f7t80$n62@quartz.ucs.ualberta.ca>    <3f81q2$b50@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>     
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 1995 06:59:07 GMT
Lines: 35

k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy) writes:

>codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) wrote:

>> Danny Keren (dzk@cs.brown.edu) wrote:
>> : This was a truly silly attempt at sarcasm from Joshua. The more
>> : you read this "revisionist scholar", the more you see he's just
>> 
>> Wish you would get off this "revisionist scholar' kick.  That's another 
>> one of your labels, not ours.

>Hey Ross.

>I'll bet you I can find at least two references to "revisionist scholars"
>or "revisionist scholarship" from revisionist literature.  If I do, you
>admit you were wrong, and suffer silently through Danny using the term as
>much as he wants.  If I'm wrong, I'll stop using it (I can't control what
>Danny does...)

>Do we have a wager?

You're on! Of course they have to be net revisionists talking about other
net revisionist.  A "net revisionist" is someone who posts to the net. I
regard this as a fair restriction, since Keren normally applies the term
to us net revisionists, as above, though he sometimes uses it on real
revisionist scholars. 

             Ross Vicksell


>-- 
> Jamie McCarthy   Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu   AppleLink: j.mccarthy
> "The Jewish people will be exterminated...it's in our program."  - Himmler
> "Until you find a reference to gas chambers, you can forget about long,
>  drawn-out discussions of Himmler's speeches."                     - Raven


From oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!sunserver.insinc.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!codfish Thu Jan 19 22:16:26 PST 1995
Article: 21509 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: The torture of Rudolf Hoess
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References: 
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 1995 02:23:20 GMT
Lines: 60

This post seems to have misfired the first time, so here goes again:
Here's that citation you people insisted on seeing, from Legions of Death
by Rubert Butler.  (You won't take our word for ANYTHING.) Mark Weber sent
it to me.  It turn out they have it at the Harvard Library, too (they have
EVERYTHING, a Suburban librarian told me once), so Felix can check up on
the accuracy of my citation, if he feels so inclined. (And whatever
happened to Wayne McGuire?)

The public libraries in the Boston area have a couple of Butler's other 
books: The Black Angels: A History of the Waffen-SS (published in North 
America by St. Martins press, the same people who published Bacque's book)
and An Illustrated History of the Gestapo (What good is a book without 
conversation and illustrations?  Maybe that's why Legions of Death didn't 
make it, despite its catchy title.).

I'll spare you the preliminaries about how they tracked down Hoess.   
It's the usual: informers, round-the-clock surveillance, threats to his 
family, etc.

>From page 237:

Hoess screamed at the mere sight of British uniforms.

Clarke yelled: "What is your name?"

With each answer of 'Fritz Lang', Clarke's hand crashed into the face of 
his prisoner.  The fourth time that happened, Hoess broke and admitted 
who he was.

The admission suddenly unleashed the loathing of the Jewish sergeants in
the arresting party whose parents had died in Auschwitz following an order
signed by Hoess. 

The prisoner was torn from the top bunk, the pyjamas ripped from his 
body.  He was then dragged naked to one of the slaughter tables, where it 
seemed to Clarke the blows and screams were endless.

Eventually, the Nedical Officer urged the Captain: ' Call them off, 
unless you want to take back a corpse.'

A blanket was thrown over Hoess and he was dragged to Clarke's car, where 
the sergeant poured a substantial slug of whisked down his throat.  Then 
Hoess tried to sleep.

Clarke thrust his service stick under the man's eyelids and ordered in 
German: 'Keep your pig eyes open, you swine.'

For the first time Hoess trotted out his oft-repeated justification: 'I 
took my orders from Himmler .  I am a soldier in the same way you are a 
soldier and we had to obey orders.'

The party arrived back at Heide around three in the morning.   The snow 
was swirling still, but the blanket was torn from Hoess and he was made 
to walk completely nude through the prison yard to his cell.

It took three days to get a coherent statement out of him, but once he 
started talking, there was no holding him.


                        Ross Vicksell


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Article: 21510 of alt.revisionism
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From: Toad@TheHall.Riverbank
Subject: Re: Vicksell's "Logic" (was: Re: Ricky J. at Auschwitz?)
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Date: Wed, 18 Jan 1995 17:41:35 GMT

In article <3fj95v$fts@molnir.brunel.ac.uk> gt91rdj@brunel.ac.uk (Ricardo D Joshua) writes:

>The fact is that psychology is a Jewish invention. 

The science, or its subject?

One for the quote files, I think:-)




From oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!sunserver.insinc.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news.cac.psu.edu!news.pop.psu.edu!hudson.lm.com!godot.cc.duq.edu!news.duke.edu!hookup!caen!zip.eecs.umich.edu!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!news.itd.umich.edu!pm005-06.dialip.mich.net!user Thu Jan 19 22:29:45 PST 1995
Article: 21518 of alt.revisionism
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From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The torture of Rudolf Hoess
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 1995 11:22:02 -0500
Organization: University of Michigan
Lines: 21
Message-ID: 
References: 
   
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm005-06.dialip.mich.net

codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) wrote:

> This post seems to have misfired the first time, so here goes again:
> Here's that citation you people insisted on seeing, from Legions of Death
> by Rubert Butler.

I've read this before.  I still want to see the book itself.  It
sounds like a lurid, trashy novel (are you sure it isn't at least
partly fictional?).  What I'm most interested in is the section
where he claims to have been part of this interrogation team.
Presumably that fact can be verified (or disproven).

Is "Rubert" a typo, and if so, is it "Rupert" or "Robert"?

I note in passing that you didn't answer my question:  who's the
publisher of _Legions of Death_?
-- 
 Jamie McCarthy   Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu   AppleLink: j.mccarthy
 "The Jewish people will be exterminated...it's in our program."  - Himmler
 "Until you find a reference to gas chambers, you can forget about long,
  drawn-out discussions of Himmler's speeches."                     - Raven


From oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!nntp.club.cc.cmu.edu!hudson.lm.com!news.pop.psu.edu!news.cac.psu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!sunsite.doc.ic.ac.uk!nntp0.brunel.ac.uk!not-for-mail Fri Jan 20 05:00:47 PST 1995
Article: 21524 of alt.revisionism
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From: gt91rdj@brunel.ac.uk (Ricardo D Joshua)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Vicksell's "Logic" (was: Re: Ricky J. at Auschwitz?)
Date: 18 Jan 1995 14:38:55 -0000
Organization: Brunel University, Uxbridge, UK
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References: <3f4lrm$95j@quartz.ucs.ualberta.ca>  <3fc284$8i0@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> <3fdp2t$fcc@thor.brunel.ac.uk> <3fhjpk$jdp@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
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Danny Keren (dzk@cs.brown.edu) wrote:
: Ricardo D Joshua  wrote:

: # Yep. You Jews have some strange kind of obsession with shrinks- 
:        ^^^^^^^^
: # because of that I don't happen to believe in the kind of Freudian 
: # trash they come out with. 

: Wow, I guess he'll come up with some "twinky bar" analogy to
: "prove" he didn't mean anything anti-Jewish or something.

I openly said that I stand by this general opinion, Keren- there's therefore
no need to state the obvious. The fact is that psychology is a Jewish 
invention. Even the merchants of Hollywood, as I previously stated, seem to
accept this fact. I can see no reaosn why you are bothering to make an issue
out of this.

Why don't you just "chill out" and get yourself a Twinky Bar, old chap?

: -Danny Keren.

Ricky J.

"There was a large frying pan in the middle of the camp". Son of "Holocaust
survivor", , BBC Television, 11.1.95




From oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!sunserver.insinc.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news1.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail Fri Jan 20 05:00:48 PST 1995
Article: 21527 of alt.revisionism
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From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The torture of Rudolf Hoess
Date: 19 Jan 1995 12:23:03 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 22
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References:   
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net

In article ,
Jamie McCarthy  wrote:
>I've read this before.  I still want to see the book itself.  It
>sounds like a lurid, trashy novel (are you sure it isn't at least
>partly fictional?).  What I'm most interested in is the section
>where he claims to have been part of this interrogation team.
>Presumably that fact can be verified (or disproven).

    However, according to Holocaust denier rules of evidence, it would
make no difference.  It would still be only eyewitness testimony, and
therefore worthless.  Only a film of this torture, or forensic evidence of
Ho"ss's beating, would do, according to the eminent historian Greg Raven.

    Raven too has claimed that Ho"ss was tortured.  Therefore he must have
evidence of this sort, as I know he would never rely on Butler's
eyewitness testimony.  I invite him to produce his evidence. 

    Posted and emailed to both Raven and Vicksell.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!sunserver.insinc.net!news.sprintlink.net!siemens!princeton!udel!usenet Fri Jan 20 05:00:49 PST 1995
Article: 21529 of alt.revisionism
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From: carroll@quadriga.cis.udel.edu (Mark C. Chu-Carroll)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Israelis Exhibit Healthy Attitude at Last!
Date: 19 Jan 1995 15:59:11 GMT
Organization: University of Delaware
Lines: 22
Message-ID: 
References:  
	
NNTP-Posting-Host: quadriga.cis.udel.edu
In-reply-to: codfish@netcom.com's message of Thu, 19 Jan 1995 05:25:48 GMT


>>>>> "Ross" == Ross Vicksell  writes:
In article  codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) writes:

Ross> : Hey, Mike, where's your cite for this claim (about why Jews
Ross> intermarry)?  : How many is "many"?

Ross> I recall seeing an article in the Boston Jewish Advocate about
Ross> how intermarriages (of American Jews, of course) had increased
Ross> seven-fold over some time frame, maybe twenty years.  I thought
Ross> this was a well-known trend.

That wasn't the question, Ross. You should really try reading...

"where's the cite for this claim (about ***why*** Jews intermarry)..."

	
-- 
|| Mark Craig Chu-Carroll:  ||"Don't try to tell me there's no reason
|| CIS Grad, Univ of Delaware   || for any moment in time, for every memory
|| PGP key available by finger  || of mine. Those years are lines of color on
|| carroll@cis.udel.edu         || my face, the past is warpaint"-Happy Rhodes


From oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!sunserver.insinc.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news2.near.net!cat.cis.Brown.EDU!dzk Sat Jan 21 04:59:05 PST 1995
Article: 21538 of alt.revisionism
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The torture of Rudolf Hoess
Date: 19 Jan 1995 21:26:57 GMT
Organization: Brown University
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <3fmlf1$gi1@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
References:  
NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu

What is the source for all this? Why, if the book is worth 
anything, is it so hard to find (Brown didn't have it last time
I checked).

I've seen photographs of Hoess and a movie of him testifying at
Nurnberg. He sure doesn't look like he was tortured.

Hoess wasn't tortured by the Poles and the Soviets, when he wrote 
his memoirs. No one told him what to write. For instance, he writes
the most terrible things about the behavior of the Soviet POW's
in Auschwitz. Why would the Soviets dictate stuff like this to him? 
Also, Hoess mocks the estimations given by survivors to the total
number of the victims. He gives an estimate of about 1.2 million. Why
would the Soviets dictate to him an estimate far lower than what they
have given themselves? It makes no sense.

The Hoess autobiography is genuine. 


-Danny Keren.





From oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!sunserver.insinc.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news2.near.net!cat.cis.Brown.EDU!dzk Sat Jan 21 04:59:06 PST 1995
Article: 21544 of alt.revisionism
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Eyewitness Testimony - YES or NO? (was: Re: The torture of
Date: 19 Jan 1995 21:41:41 GMT
Organization: Brown University
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <3fmmal$luk@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
References:  
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And, of course, there's another question.

What Vicksell wrote may be true or false. However, he surely
doesn't have any physical evidence to back up his claim of Hoess
being tortured. This means he accepts the eyewitness testimony
of someone (it is not clear who).

Does this mean our "revisionist scholars" have changed their mind, 
and they now accept eyewitness testimony? 

Yes or no?

Yes or No?

YES or NO?


-Danny Keren.


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Article: 21546 of alt.revisionism
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From: gt91rdj@brunel.ac.uk (Ricardo D Joshua)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Vicksell's "Logic" (was: Re: Ricky J. at Auschwitz?)
Date: 18 Jan 1995 14:56:39 -0000
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David Johnston (cendbj@clust.hw.ac.uk) wrote:
: In article <3fdu3l$jiv@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes:

: >Everybody runs into people like Joshua here and there. A noisy, 
: >stupid little brat who never amounts to anything, and takes out
: >his "revenge" on the world. What a stupid little twerp like Josuha
: >really wants is to stand on a platform and scream, because he
: >feels the world is ignoring him. The Internet is such a platform.

: >He was born a zero, he lives like a zero, and he'll die like a
: >zero. In the meanwhile, he'll try to make people upset. That's the
: >only thing he can do. 


: >-Danny Keren.

: It really doesn't seem worth trying to make Mr Joshua look stupid, since he 
: does such a good job of it himself. His past references to Prisoner Cell Block 
: H as proof of Jewish control of the media and two Jewish members of the German 
: parliament as proof of Jewish political control are laughable. His agreement 
: with Hitler likening Jews to maggots, and "Yep. You Jews have some strange 
: kind of obsession with shrinks....You... have probably been brought up 
: on this "shrink culture". Maybe this is why you are so pathetic." show him up 
: as a nasty, paranoid little bigot.

: Let him scream his little head off. Nobody is listening.

: David Johnston
: Heriot-Watt University
: Edinburgh 

After agreeing on the stupidity of Tim McCarthy's attitudes towards Britain,
I see that we are back to the norm...
David, I did not attempt to use the PCBH and PDS references to "prove" that
the Zionists have media and political power- they were cited as examples of
this media and political power.

Ricky J.

"There was a large frying pan in the middle of the camp". Son of "Holocaust
survivor", , BBC Television, 11.1.95

BTW, did you see the above or any of the recent propaganda campaign recently?



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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: The Wash. Post Article
Message-ID: 
Followup-To: alt.censorship,alt.revisionism
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Date: Wed, 18 Jan 1995 09:42:56 GMT
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Here's the article that seems to have started this discussion, a couple of
threads ago: 

From: cburian@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Christopher J Burian)
Subject: House historian fired
Date: 12 Jan 1995 08:39:03 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana

Newt Gingrich, in a fit of Political Correctness, fired house historian
Christina Jeffrey for a report she wrote 8 years ago which said that
a junior high school history course was so one-sided that it didn't 
merit federal funding.

Gingrich spokesperson Tony Blankley said that in 1986 Jeffery had served 
on a Department of Education panel that was set up to review a curriculum
entitled "Facing History and Ourselves."  The panel rejected a $70,000
grant for the program because it was neither balanced nor objective.

At the time, Jeffrey wrote, "The program gives no evidence of balance
or objectivity.  The Nazi point of view, however unpopular, is still
a point of view and is not represented, nor are the views of the Ku
Klux Klan."

A White House spokesperson called the move to fire Jeffrey "an appropriate
step and a prudent decision."

Jeffrey said, "It has never been my position that you ought to be going out
and finding the KKK and bringing them into the middle-school classrooms.''
	 
New York state Representative Nita Lowey said, "An apologist
for the Nazis and the Ku Klux Klan does not belong in the
people's house. Anti-Semitism, racism, revisionism has no place
in the United States of America," according to CNN.

===== end report =====

I especially like Lowey's comment!  Certain forms of free speech
and political expression "have no place" in the USA.  That's rich.
And hypocritical.  What do you call a history of Nazi Germany
without any views except those of sworn enemies of Nazis?  I call
it revisionism.  The victors write the history books, eh.  Well,
I imagine Professor Jeffrey is better off far from the corrupting
influences that infest Washington DC. 

--
==============
===========
================================



Well, I'm happy to announce that Facing History was finally able to bounce
back from their 1986 setback, even with Ms. Jeffrey running around loose,
as evidenced by this story from the Boston Globe of Dec. 7, 1989: 

------------------------------------------------------------------------
                Brookline group gets $400,000 grant

The National Endowment for the Humanities today will award a $400,000 
grant to a Brookline-based foundation that uses the  the history of the 
Holocaust to confront racism and prejudice in their own lives and 
communities.

The award to the Facing History and Ourselves National Foundation is the 
largest challenge grant by the humanities endowment to a Massachusetts 
organization this year. ...

The foundation's $1.2 million annual budget comes largely from private 
gifts.  This fall, the U.S. Department of Education made a four-year, 
renewable grant of almost $60,000 a year.

The grant followed a congressional hearing last year over the department's
refusal to give money to the foundation for the three previous years. 
Among the reasons given for the denial of grants was one review panel
member's charge that the curriculum did not present the views of the Nazis
or the Ku Klux Klan.  Another review panel member called the courses
"leftist" and "offensive to fundamentalists." 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

A congressional hearing, yet.


Currently this discussion seems to be about whether, if "Holocaust
Education" is taught in the public schools, revisionist viewpoints should
be aired. A more fundamental question is whether this subject has any
place in a public school curriculum at all, outside of an elective world
or European history course.  And what's the "ourselves" in "Facing History
and Ourselves" all about?  It seems to imply that American's somehow
participated in the persecution of the European Jews during World War II. 

The reason the kids in Illinois and New Jersey are indoctrinated with
Holocaust propaganda is very simple: state law requires it. And the
Holocaust Lobby is trying to push through similar laws in other states,
including New York. 

Chalk up one for the opponents of brain-washing though: a revisionist
friend of mine in Illinois, who lived in Winnetka at the time, managed to
convince the school board that his kids could be excused from class during
the Holocaust unit when it came up in their Jr. H.S. curriculum. The
Chicago Tribune did a big feature story on the controversy at the time. 


                         Ross Vicksell

p.s.  I wonder why Mr. Burian, in his diatribe against the state, doesn't 
say something about the evils of the public school system and the 
preferability of a private one.





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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: The torture of Rudolf Hoess
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
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Date: Wed, 18 Jan 1995 20:22:51 GMT
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From: schultz@garnet.berkeley.edu (Richard Schultz)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The torture of Rudolf Hoess
Date: 20 Jan 1995 12:33:24 GMT
Organization: Philosophers of the Dangerous Maybe
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In article <3fmlf1$gi1@cat.cis.brown.edu>,
Danny Keren  wrote:

[re: Hoess's memoirs]

>Also, Hoess mocks the estimations given by survivors to the total
>number of the victims. He gives an estimate of about 1.2 million. Why
>would the Soviets dictate to him an estimate far lower than what they
>have given themselves? It makes no sense.

Not only that, but since he wrote it *after* he was already sentenced to
death, there was no reason for him not to write "I am an innocent man
railroaded by the nasty evil Allies" -- but he didn't.

No doubt, Vicksell will tell us that the memoirs are a clever Soviet
forgery.  That's why they contain things that it makes no sense for
the Soviets to have written -- to give it the air of verisimilitude that
it needs.  Also, if anyone caught on to the forgery, they could always 
turn around and say "well, see, the numbers are way off!  We knew it was
a forgery all along!" and send some hapless "forger" off to the Gulag.

See how easy this game is to play?
--
					Richard Schultz

"You don't even have a clue as to which clue you're missing." -- Miss Manners


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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Israelis Exhibit Healthy Attitude at Last!
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
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References:  
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 1995 05:25:48 GMT
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The only Golux in the World, and not a mere Device (golux@mcs.com) wrote:
: In article , hoffman2nd@delphi.com wrote:

: > Indeed, such an outlook may go far in stemming the skyrocketing number of Jews
: > assimilating into non-Jewish peoples through inter-marriage, many of whom do 
: > so in part from weariness over the constant Jewish meditation on 
: > victimization, self-pity and masochism which comprise the main themes of the 
: > Shoah cult.

: Hey, Mike, where's your cite for this claim (about why Jews intermarry)? 
: How many is "many"? 

I recall seeing an article in the Boston Jewish Advocate about how
intermarriages (of American Jews, of course) had increased seven-fold over
some time frame, maybe twenty years.  I thought this was a well-known
trend. 

                    Ross Vicksell


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From: joelr@winternet.com (Joel Rosenberg)
Newsgroups: alt.censorship,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Wash. Post Article
Date: 19 Jan 1995 20:18:18 GMT
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In message  - codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) 
writes:
And hypocritical.  What do you call a history of Nazi Germany
>without any views except those of sworn enemies of Nazis?

"At least possibly accurate."



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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Ms. Jeffrey recants
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After Christina Jeffrey had been suitably chastened by losing her job as 
House Historian, she was whisked off to Israel to make a public 
confession in front of Knesset.  She's very sorry about what she did 
eight years ago, and presumably will never do it again.

               Ross Vicksell


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From: hmazal@aol.com (HMazal)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "Revisionist scholars"
Date: 19 Jan 1995 01:32:07 -0500
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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Reply-To: hmazal@aol.com (HMazal)

Mr. Vicksell uses the following descriptive:

> A "net revisionist"

I prefer the British spelling: a "nett revisionist."   (Look it up in the
Compact Edition of the O.E.D.)

Harry W. Mazal in San Antonio, Texas


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From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ms. Jeffrey recants
Date: 20 Jan 1995 15:55:19 -0500
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>She's very sorry about what she did 
>eight years ago, and presumably will never do it again.

You mean she'll never voice an honest opinion again?  Then the woman
should be declared a member of Congress by default.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"Know how to Contradict. An affected doubt is the subtlest picklock that
curiosity can use to find out what it wants to know." - Baltasar Gracian


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From: cendbj@clust.hw.ac.uk (David Johnston)
Subject: Re: Vicksell's "Logic" (was: Re: Ricky J. at Auschwitz?)
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Date: Thu, 19 Jan 1995 09:44:00 GMT

In article <3fgfsf$ja1@molnir.brunel.ac.uk> gt91rdj@brunel.ac.uk (Ricardo D Joshua) writes:

>OK, I forgot to state that I had been before. Last time, however, I was
>dragged around in a tour group and wasn't able to see anything but what
>they wanted me to see. I have to say that due to the lack of time I did
>not get to see all of what I wanted to see this time, either. Both myself
>and some colleagues (not all revisionists, but those who aren't are a bit
>sceptical) are planning to go to central Europe again- yes, Prague again-
>but this time we are thinking of spending two to three days in Krakow,
>which would include a whole day at Auschwitz. 

Why? You've already decided that it won't change your mind. So what is the 
point?

>: Even the "Holocaust revisionists" agree the camp had five huge
>: crematoriums with a total of 52 cremation furnaces. We're talking
>: about cremation power sufficient to dispose of many hundreds of
>: thousands of corpses. Perhaps Joshua can explain this?

>Hmm. Hundreds of thousands now, is it? What about the "millions"? 

No. Mr Keren said "many hundreds of thousands of corpses". In a previous post 
you demonstrated your lack of understanding of statistics (two Jewish members 
of the Bundestag are Jews. Therefore 50% of the PDS is Jewish). Simple maths 
is obviously not your forte either. Millions are made up of many hundreds of 
thousands. I may be wrong, and I've no doubt you and your chums will tell 
me I am, but I suspect Mr Keren meant many hundreds of thousands per year.

>: ## [with regard to a fellow "revisionist", Ricardo "Jews 
>: ##  are maggots" Joshua]

>: Joshua said that Hitler's comparison of Jews to maggots "still holds
>: true today". Here's the verbatim quote from his article:

>Once more, for all those reading this, I reiterate: I did not myself liken
>Jews to maggots. When I said "this holds true today", I was referring to
>the Jewish control of the culture industry (which is clear if you read the
>whole posting, although, despite the fact that Kareen seems to unearth all
>kinds of old stuff, he is unlikely to repost for everyone to see). I made
>the point in my defence by saying that if Hitler described the relation-
>ship between the Jews and the culture industry as being similar to the
>relationship between a Twinky and a Candy Store, Keren would have prob-
>ably accused me of likening Jews to Twinky Bars. It just goes to show
>how stooopid Keren's line of argument was.

I think this means "I said something that revealed me as an unpleasant 
little anti-semite. I shouldn't have said it, because I'm not going to be seen 
as impartial now."

>: # Don't try to force me into a corner you rodent -

>: I don't have to - the obnoxious, stupid little twerp is doing a very
>: good job at that himself.

>OK. I don't really wish to trade insults, 

Oh, go on.

>as it is not my usual style- but,
>Keren, I just have to say once more that you are a slanderous rodent...

There, that felt good didn't it?


>It is not me who wants "revenge", Keren, it is you. All 
>I am trying to do is fight for the truth...

You've yet to give us proof of any of what you see as the truth. All you do is 
post ridiculous articles about Jews being everywhere. Give me the proof and I 
assure you that I, for one, will believe you.

>I myself don't care about your insults

Why did you get so worked up about them then?

David Johnston
Heriot-Watt University
Edinburgh


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From: gt91rdj@brunel.ac.uk (Ricardo D Joshua)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ricky J. at Auschwitz?
Date: 20 Jan 1995 08:39:36 -0000
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David Johnston (cendbj@clust.hw.ac.uk) wrote:
: In article <3fgdjg$ehq@molnir.brunel.ac.uk> gt91rdj@brunel.ac.uk (Ricardo D Joshua) writes:

: >Umm. A nice new menaingless word. Boor. Please define the term.

: boor n. an ill-mannered, clumsy, or insensitive person.

: Statistics, Maths, and now English. What DO you do at university?

: David Johnston

Thanks. Rather than showing ignorance here, I admit to laziness, i.e. not
looking the word up in a dictionary. I suppose you learn a new term every
day... No, I don't do Statistics, and nor do I deo Maths or English (although
I was pretty good at the subjects). No. Political History is my field, if you
really want to know.

Ricky J.

"There was a large frying pan in the middle of the camp". Son of "Holocaust
survivor", , BBC Television, 11.1.95
n


From oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!canada!vortex.netbistro.com!fonorola!news1.fonorola.net!swiss.ans.net!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!codfish Tue Jan 24 08:22:07 PST 1995
Article: 21626 of alt.revisionism
Xref: oneb alt.censorship:30093 alt.revisionism:21626
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: The Wash. Post Article
Message-ID: 
Followup-To: alt.censorship,alt.revisionism
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References:  <3fmhea$fjm@blackice.winternet.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Jan 1995 18:58:55 GMT
Lines: 15

Joel Rosenberg (joelr@winternet.com) wrote:
: In message  - codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) 
: writes:
: And hypocritical.  What do you call a history of Nazi Germany
: >without any views except those of sworn enemies of Nazis?

: "At least possibly accurate."

Those aren't my words; they're Christopher Burian's.

Nobody seems to addressed what I have to say.  Please read it. It's about 
"Facing History and Ourselves", and their effort to impose their version 
of things.

                     Ross Vicksell


From oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!sunserver.insinc.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!scripps.edu!misrael Tue Jan 24 12:36:15 PST 1995
Article: 21631 of alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!sunserver.insinc.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!scripps.edu!misrael
From: misrael@scripps.edu (Mark Israel)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The torture of Rudolf Hoess
Date: 21 Jan 1995 14:54:08 GMT
Organization: The Scripps Research Institute, La Jolla, California, USA
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NNTP-Posting-Host: struct.scripps.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In article  and , codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) writes:

> This post seems to have misfired the first time, so here goes again:
> Here's that citation you people insisted on seeing, from Legions of Death
> by Rubert Butler.  (You won't take our word for ANYTHING.)

   Why *should* we take your word for anything, when you won't take my word
for the fact that most of my extended family was murdered by the Nazis?

> Sigh! I do believe if I told you I had a sixteen year old cat you guys
> would demand to see the birth certificate.  I was hoping against hope that
> this time things would be different, and that after I had gone to all this
> trouble to get and post an authentic citation about the torture of Rudolf
> Hoess, at least one of our worthy opponents would give me a pat on the
> back for a job well done, if not publicly at least in email.

   Thank you for the more exact citation, Ross.

   As to whether Hoess was brutalized by the British, I believe Ken McVay
acknowledged some months ago that he was.

   As to the Revisionist claim that this completely invalidates Hoess's
testimony, I believe it is refuted by your own citation:

> It took three days to get a coherent statement out of him, but once he 
> started talking, there was no holding him.

   "Once he started talking, there was no holding him" doesn't like 
someone who was repeating a false confession that was pumped into him,
now does it?

--
misrael@scripps.edu			Mark Israel


From oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!canada!vortex.netbistro.com!fonorola!news1.fonorola.net!swiss.ans.net!gatech!pirates!emory!swrinde!pipex!uunet!iglou!dyn018.slip.iglou.com!user Tue Jan 24 17:26:03 PST 1995
Article: 21639 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!canada!vortex.netbistro.com!fonorola!news1.fonorola.net!swiss.ans.net!gatech!pirates!emory!swrinde!pipex!uunet!iglou!dyn018.slip.iglou.com!user
From: jeff_brown@pol.com (Jeffrey G. Brown)
Subject: Re: "Revisionist scholars"
Message-ID: 
Sender: news@iglou.com (news)
Organization: IgLou Internet Services
References: <3f4lrm$95j@quartz.ucs.ualberta.ca>    <3f5oml$m11@molnir.brunel.ac.uk>    <3f7t80$n62@quartz.ucs.ualberta.ca>    <3f81q2$b50@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>      
Date: Sat, 21 Jan 1995 02:50:29 GMT
Lines: 23

In article , codfish@netcom.com (Ross
Vicksell) wrote:

> k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy) writes:
> >Do we have a wager?
> 
> You're on! Of course they have to be net revisionists talking about other
> net revisionist.  A "net revisionist" is someone who posts to the net. I
> regard this as a fair restriction, since Keren normally applies the term
> to us net revisionists, as above, though he sometimes uses it on real
> revisionist scholars.

There's nothing 'fair' about that restriction at all, Vicksell. You're
deliberately limiting the source material that Jamie can use, in order to
make it more likely that he'd lose the wager.

Looks like a typical 'revisionist scholar' ruse to me.

JGB

=====================================================================
Jeffrey G. Brown                                   jeff_brown@pol.com
 "What's going to happen?"   "Something wonderful..."   -- '2010'


From oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!sunserver.insinc.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news2.near.net!cat.cis.Brown.EDU!dzk Tue Jan 24 19:30:35 PST 1995
Article: 21640 of alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!sunserver.insinc.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news2.near.net!cat.cis.Brown.EDU!dzk
From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: The Vicksell Comedy Show (was: Re: The torture o
Date: 21 Jan 1995 23:08:01 GMT
Organization: Brown University
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Message-ID: <3fs44h$34u@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
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NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu

Ross Vicksell  wrote:

# Sigh! I do believe if I told you I had a sixteen year old cat 
# you guys would demand to see the birth certificate.  

It's quite funny, really, to see Vicksell whining like this.

Vicksell says that practically everybody who was in the Nazi
camps during WW2 is a liar. Why is he then surprised if
people suspect he's a liar? More so, because he belongs to
the "revisionist movement", and so many "revisionists" have
posted here so many lies? Gannon, Kleim, Raven, Berg and the
rest have all blatantly lied here. This is documented. It was
proved here and it can be proven again. Some even admitted
they lied, and apologized for it.

# and that after I had gone to all this trouble 

WOW!

He actually went and tried to get a real source, and he thinks
he deserves a medal! 

# to get and post an authentic citation about the torture of 
# Rudolf Hoess, 

Authentic? We'll have to see about that.

# What I find it interesting is that none of you will acknowledge 
# that Hoess was beaten up.  

Before we even discuss this, we have to agree on some basic
principles here.

Vicksell has to get something into his skull. He cannot
use a double standard when evaluating the evidence. He cannot
take one dubious testimony that he likes, and discard many
thousands of testimonies he doesn't like. I repeat my question:
Are eyewitness testimonies valid or not? YES or NO?

And then, there are all the matters Vicksell doesn't address.

Why does the source he quotes say "it was impossible to stop
Hoess from talking"?

If the Soviets "dictated" Hoess' memoirs to him, why on earth
do the memoirs include all these terrible descriptions of
the behavior of the Soviet POW's? Hoess describes them as
a bunch of savages.

If the Soviets "dictated" Hoess' memoirs to him, why on earth
do the memoirs contain his estimate to the total number of
deaths at Auschwitz which is far lower than what the Soviets
have given (Hoess' estimate is somewhat over a million). Makes
no sense at all, does it? 

Hoess' memoirs are genuine and are far more important and
detailed than his short confession.


-Danny Keren.



From oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!sunserver.insinc.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!garnet.berkeley.edu!schultz Wed Jan 25 05:58:28 PST 1995
Article: 21648 of alt.revisionism
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From: schultz@garnet.berkeley.edu (Richard Schultz)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The torture of Rudolf Hoess
Date: 22 Jan 1995 00:31:03 GMT
Organization: Philosophers of the Dangerous Maybe
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NNTP-Posting-Host: garnet.berkeley.edu

In article ,
Ross Vicksell  wrote:

>No, it's not
>a trashy novel;  it doesn't have the standard "This is a work of fiction. 
>Any resemblence to person living or dead ..." disclaimer in it, like
>Schindler List Does.  

You tell a lie this brazen and then wonder why nobody of sense trusts you?
--
					Richard Schultz

"You don't even have a clue as to which clue you're missing." -- Miss Manners


From oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!canada!vortex.netbistro.com!fonorola!news1.fonorola.net!swiss.ans.net!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!codfish Wed Jan 25 05:58:29 PST 1995
Article: 21660 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: The torture of Rudolf Hoess
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References:   <3fmlf1$gi1@cat.cis.brown.edu> <3foaik$hpr@agate.berkeley.edu>
Date: Sat, 21 Jan 1995 06:19:04 GMT
Lines: 32

Sigh! I do believe if I told you I had a sixteen year old cat you guys
would demand to see the birth certificate.  I was hoping against hope that
this time things would be different, and that after I had gone to all this
trouble to get and post an authentic citation about the torture of Rudolf
Hoess, at least one of our worthy opponents would give me a pat on the
back for a job well done, if not publicly at least in email. After all,
you all are the ones that insisted that I do this. 

No such luck.  Instead we have the usual nitpicking and irrelevant
digressions.  Yes, the author's name is Rupert, not Rubert.  No, it's not
a trashy novel;  it doesn't have the standard "This is a work of fiction. 
Any resemblence to person living or dead ..." disclaimer in it, like
Schindler List Does.  Sorry the Brown Library doesn't have the book, but
then neither does B.U. or Brandeis.  The publisher is Hamlyn Paperbacks
in London, in 1983.  It's in the Widener Library, and if you guys want to
check on that, just call them up.  If you're curious about what the book
looks like, get Felix to take it out. 

What I find it interesting is that none of you will acknowledge that 
Hoess was beaten up.  To me it seems perfectly natural for British 
soldiers who had lost their parents in Auschwitz to take it out on Hoess.

What's harder to explain is why German prisoners were systematically 
tortured, both physically and mentally, by the Western allies, before the 
war crimes trials.  Butz devotes several pages to this sordid business, 
and I intend to talk about it during the coming weeks.  And Butz cites 
sources, including the report of a special congressional investigating 
committee.

                Ross Vicksell




From oneb!kmcvay Wed Jan 25 06:15:42 PST 1995
Article: 21675 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!kmcvay
From: kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay)
Subject: Re: The torture of Rudolf Hoess
References: <3fmlf1$gi1@cat.cis.brown.edu> <3foaik$hpr@agate.berkeley.edu> 
Organization: The Old Frog's Almanac
Message-ID: <1995Jan25.141330.28245@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
Date: Wed, 25 Jan 95 14:13:30 GMT

In article  codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) writes:

>Sigh! I do believe if I told you I had a sixteen year old cat you guys
>would demand to see the birth certificate.  I was hoping against hope that
>this time things would be different, and that after I had gone to all this
>trouble to get and post an authentic citation about the torture of Rudolf
>Hoess, at least one of our worthy opponents would give me a pat on the
>back for a job well done, if not publicly at least in email. After all,
>you all are the ones that insisted that I do this. 

You finally get around to actually citing a publication, as most
here routinely do, and now you want a medal for it? Get used to it,
Ross - it's good practice, particularly here in a.r.

>What I find it interesting is that none of you will acknowledge that 
>Hoess was beaten up.  To me it seems perfectly natural for British 
>soldiers who had lost their parents in Auschwitz to take it out on Hoess.

Horsepucky, Ross. I can't think of anyone here who has ever denied
his mistreatment by the British... the point, however, is that
nothing the Brits did to him relates to his memoirs anyway, or his
actual testimony at Nuremberg... interestingly enough, his testimony
and memoirs were consistent not only with each other, but with that
of others... I guess the Brits not only beat them all, but had them
all memorize the same story, eh?

-- 
          The Nizkor Project: An Electronic Holocaust Resource
   (For full file listing, send INDEX to listserv@oneb.almanac.bc.ca)
                     kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca
             Vancouver Island, British Columbia, CANADA


From oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!sunserver.insinc.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!codfish Wed Jan 25 19:27:48 PST 1995
Article: 21685 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Majdanek
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References: <1995Jan10.225026.19216@hobbes.kzoo.edu> 
Date: Sun, 22 Jan 1995 23:43:43 GMT
Lines: 640

I wrote:

: I am pleased to announce that there will be a major Majdanek article 
: posted by our side soon, hopefully before the end of the week.  Watch 
: this thread!

And here it is - almost on time: 

It has been claimed that Majdanek is one place you can go to see a
(homicidal) gas chamber that isn't a reconstruction, but the real thing. 
I asked David Cole, the revisionist who has done the most research about
Majdanek (when David showed video footage of Majdanek on the Phil Donahue
TV show, that was probably the first time most people actually had a
chance to SEE the rooms in question), to comment. David has publicly said
he's "retired" from revisionist activism, but I asked if he'd just send me
something to post. The following is his response. David has asked me to
pass on the fact that he doesn't follow the Internet so, although he hopes
his response sparks some intelligent discussion about Majdanek, he adds
(in his words) "keep your insults and cheap shots to yourselves, I'll
never see them." 

                 Ross Vicksell

****************************************************************************

               COMMON SENSE ABOUT THE MAJDANEK "GAS CHAMBERS"

                             By David Cole

It is laughable that most anti-revisionists rely on the "Leuchter Report"
for their facts about the Majdanek "gas chambers." This is a necessity, of
course, because of the lack of ANY comprehensive studies of the Majdanek
"gas chambers," outside of those produced by revisionists (something that
concerns Jean-Claude Pressac: See "Auschwitz; Technique and Operation of
the Gas Chambers," page 555; "I am sorry to say, and I am not the only one
in the West, that the Majdanek homicidal and/or delousing gas chambers are
still waiting for a true historian, which is mildly upsetting in view of
the fact that the camp fell into the hands of the Russians intact in
1944."), but it is nevertheless funny how folks can dismiss Leuchter as
incompetent, hopelessly incorrect about everything, and a vicious Nazi
hate-machine, and then quote his report like the Bible, using it as the
basis of their claim that there were homicidal gas chambers at the Majdanek
camp. If Leuchter's so stupid and inept, why does Mike Stein accept without
question Leuchter's observations about Majdanek? Why is Leuchter only
incompetent when he disagrees with Mike Stein?

So little has been written about gassings at Majdanek that even the most
well known Holocaust scholars are in the dark about even the most basic
points. Washington DC Holocaust Museum Director Michael Berenbaum recently
said in an interview that he's "not sure" what substance was used to gas
people at Majdanek. And try to find any agreement about the NUMBER of "gas
chambers" at Majdanek. In various books you'll find claims of anywhere from
three to eleven chambers. These are not minor squabbles. These disputes and
gaps of knowledge can only exist because of the lack of homicidal gas
chamber proof. Whatever the "sources" for homicidal gassings, they are
apparently not good enough to explain what gas was used, or how many gas
chambers existed. So the obvious question is what IS the proof of homicidal
gassings? And, if so little is known by the "experts," why are revisionists
always dismissed with a cry of "there is no need for any more research on
the gas chambers; everything's already been proven beyond question?"

Before we get to common sense about Majdanek, let's have some common sense
about Fred Leuchter. Leuchter was a PAID WITNESS for the defense in the
Zundel trial. He went to Poland knowing what his conclusions "should" be.
Regardless of what he says about his own objectivity, anyone who's taken
the time to watch the video shot during his Poland trip will see that he is
already "convinced" there were no homicidal gas chambers, even though he
hadn't even analyzed his forensic samples yet! Now, don't get me wrong;
Leuchter is not an anomaly. He's no better or worse than all the OTHER paid
experts whose conclusions are bought and paid for by defense and
prosecution teams in various criminal and civil trials. But Leuchter was
ignorant about Holocaust history, unfamiliar with 1930's -1940's delousing
procedures using Zyklon B, and zoomed through the "gas chamber" rooms like
the road runner escaping a coyote. The resulting report is too flawed to be
taken seriously anymore. It served it's purpose; it began the debate on
Zyklon B residue in the delousing rooms vs the homicidal "gas chambers."
Since Leuchter (and because of Leuchter) we have seen better works on the
subject...works from BOTH sides of this controversy (works by Pressac, the
Institute of Contemporary History, Austrian Engineer Walter Luftl, the
Auschwitz State Museum, the Krakow Forensic Institute, German chemist
Germar Rudolf, etc.). Through it all, Leuchter's test results that showed a
high level of Zyklon B residue in the Auschwitz delousing rooms and a
negligible level in the homicidal "gas chambers" have been confirmed; thus
the debate has become not one of IS THERE Zyklon residue in the homicidal
gas chambers, but instead WHY IS THERE NOT? This alone was not a de facto
victory for revisionism; there always existed the possibility that there
could be found some rational explanation for the Zyklon traces discrepancy.
But at least people were aware of this discrepancy. At least people knew
the problem that needed to be solved. At least people were asking the right
questions. Thanks, in great part, to Fred Leuchter.

But Leuchter's "engineering report" on the gas chambers, that is to say his
technical examination of those rooms, his attempt to see if homicidal
gassings could have been possible there, is junk. Totally useless. He
misses all the important stuff and comes to inaccurate conclusions about
the stuff he DOES concentrate on. He misses things that a three year old
could notice. He sees a depressed walkway and uses that as evidence against
Zyklon B usage, even though a routine observation of Majdanek liberation
photos would have shown him that the depressed walkway was created AFTER
liberation.

His report is a creaky, unreliable relic, yet most revisionists still cling
to it simply because they don't know any better. Most revisionists, like
most "exterminationists" (I don't like that term but it's shorter than
"those who support the homicidal gas chamber theory") are simply interested
in convincing people they're right BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY; in WINNING the
"argument." There are few objective voices on either side of this debate.
Both sides continue to cling to flawed works out of a fear that critiquing
their own propaganda will give the other side an advantage on the
"battlefield." Everyone acts like they're fighting a war.

This doesn't have to be a "war" unless we pig-headedly make it into one.
Let's calm down a little. Over the last few years I've logged more hours
than I can count studying every square inch of every concentration camp
still existing, researching documents in archives, and interviewing any and
all interested parties. I've been criticized for videotaping interviews,
and I'll probably be criticized NOW for relating information from
interviews I was FORBIDDEN to video- or audiotape (I'll come back to this
later).

Through it all I've come up with a series of unanswered questions about the
homicidal gas chambers. These questions won't disappear from the scene even
though I plan to. In my absence I sincerely hope that someone else can
pursue these questions to their end. I've left all my research with Bradley
Smith and it is my understanding that he plans to release it in some way.
Included in my research is my essay "The 48 Most Important Unanswered
Questions Regarding the Nazi Gas Chambers." I'm sure Ross or Bradley or
someone will get around to posting this when it's released, but for now
I'll send Ross the questions that deal with Majdanek. If most of these
questions are new to you, if you are curious why most of these points
haven't been made by Leuchter, Faurisson, Pressac, etc., you're not the
first to be surprised. In an audiotaped conversation between Dr. Michael
Shermer, editor of "Skeptic" magazine (and the guy I debated on the
"Donahue" show) and a supporter, Dr. Shermer expressed similar surprise
that I'm the first one to bring this stuff up in fifty years. He thinks my
questions might make all the difference in the gas chamber debate (he says
the revisionists may very well be right, and he apologizes for his
portrayal of me in his magazine). He said that he believes I'll be
responsible for a "paradigm shift" in history, because I'm the first one
observant enough to notice these particular gas chamber flaws. He chides
the mainstream Holocaust scholars for NOT noticing these things. He also
admitted, in an earlier audiotaped conversation with me, that he gave a
false "answer" to one of my questions in his article on revisionism for his
"Skeptic" magazine. He said that he had to make it look like he had at
least one answer, but in reality, after spending months running the
questions past Holocaust scholars including Hilberg, Lipstadt, Berenbaum,
and Washington DC Holocaust Museum Curator Sybil Milton, he admitted that
no one had been able to provide answers to my questions. In fact, he said,
Sybil Milton said they were "valid."

Frankly I think Shermer gives me too much credit.  That I am the first
one to make note of these things does NOT IN ANY WAY mean that I did
anything very special.  Like I said, a three year old could notice this
stuff.  I was the proverbial "one eyed king" in the land of the blind. 
I am fortunate to exist in a world filled with so many frauds and
imbeciles.  I look clever in comparison.  Any fool can be a straight A
student in a class filled with retards.  If we had better, more
intelligent, more honest Holocaust scholars there would be no David
Cole.

In my "46 Questions" I number the Majdanek "gas chambers" differently from
Leuchter. So to avoid any confusion, I'll explain my numbering system: Upon
entering the "Bath and Disinfection" building, one first passes through the
hair cutting room, then the shower room. Them one comes to the largest
supposed gas chamber, which I designate as "chamber l." After chamber 1
there is a block of three rooms; a small room, which I call "chamber 2," a
medium sized room, "chamber 3," and another small room, "chamber 4."

 UNANSWERED QUESTIONS REGARDING THE PHYSICAL EVIDENCE AT THE MAJDANEK
CONCENTRATION CAMP (POLAND)

27) Gas chamber 1 has two doors, both of which open INTO the gas chamber
room. How can a homicidal gas chamber have two doors which open IN?
Wouldn't the bodies be pressed up against the doors, as described numerous
times by eyewitnesses?

28) The main door into gas chamber 1 has no locks. It can be opened from
either the inside or the outside. There are no holes or fittings where a
lock might have been. What stopped the inmates from opening this door?

29) Gas chamber 1 has a plate glass window in it. There are no holes or
fittings around the window where bars or any other kind of cover might once
have been. Since the plaster around the window is covered with blue stains,
we know that it is the plaster that existed during the time Zyklon B gas
was used in this room. If there WERE bars or any other type of cover
attached to this window, why are there no traces? What would have stopped
the inmates from trying to climb out the window, or breaking the window and
causing a gas leak?

30) There is a room INSIDE gas chamber 1. Why would there be a separate
room INSIDE a gas chamber? Doesn't this room indicate that gas chamber 1
was used for something OTHER than killing people?

31) Gas chambers 2 and 3 are designed backwards. Chamber 2 has a Zyklon B
induction hole in the ceiling, but no Zyklon B traces or blue stains.
Chamber 3 has heavy, floor-to-ceiling Zyklon B traces and blue stains, but
no Zyklon B induction hole. And, like the roof of Krema 2 at Auschwitz, the
ceiling shows no sign of a hole having ever been there. Why would chamber 2
have a Zyklon B induction hole and no traces, and chamber 3 plenty of
traces but no hole?

32) The ceilings in chambers 2 and 4 are low enough so that the Zyklon B
induction holes could have been blocked by the victims. What would have
stopped the inmates from blocking the holes?

33) The doors to chambers 2, 3 and 4 are built to latch from the outside
AND the inside. The latches can be opened from either side. Does this
suggest that therooms were used for something other than killing people?

34) Getting back to the issue of hemispherical grids covering the
peepholes, it is said that the point of these grids was to prevent the
inmates from breaking the glass of the peepholes and causing a gas leak.
Yet the hemispherical grids attached to the peepholes on the doors of
chambers 2, 3 and 4 are attached on the OUTSIDE of the doors. These grids
wouldn't prevent someone INSIDE the room from breaking the glass ... but
they WOULD prevent someone OUTSIDE the room from doing so. Why are the
grids not on the inside? Does this contradict with the statements by
Pressac and the eyewitnesses regarding the need for grids in a homicidal
gas chamber?

35) The Majdanek camp is built on a hill. At the top of the hill is the
camp crematorium. At the opposite end of the camp, at the bottom of the
hill, is the "Bath and Disinfection" complex, which houses the gas
chambers. From the Nazi's point of view, what was the wisdom in putting the
gas chambers at the opposite end of the camp from the ovens, and at the
bottom of the hill (after each gassing, the dead bodies would have to have
been dragged up the hill, the length of the entire camp, to the ovens)?

36) As the Nazis were preparing to abandon the Majdanek camp, they
destroyed the crematorium building. Why were the gas chambers not similarly
destroyed? Why would the Nazis leave their weapons of mass murder intact
for the world to see? How hard would it have been for the Nazis to destroy
the gas chambers, just like they did the crematorium building? At least,
shouldn't the Nazis have filled in the Zyklon B induction holes, which
serve as direct proofs of homicidal gassings? Either way, the destruction
of the crematorium is clear proof that the Nazis had both the time and the
ability to demolish buildings in the camp if they wanted to. Why were the
gas chambers not demolished?

37) In his book "Auschwitz: Technique and Operation of the Gas Chambers",
Jean-Claude Pressac publishes a photo of the Majdanek gas chambers, with
the caption "Photograph taken at the Majdanek concentration camp in June
1979, showing one of the disinfestation gas chambers thought to be a
homicidal gas chamber." On page 555, he also has this to say about the
Majdanek gas chambers: "I am sorry to say, and I am not the only one in the
West, that the Majdanek homicidal and/or delousing gas chambers are still
waiting for a true historian, which is mildly upsetting in view of the fact
that the camp fell into the hands of the Russians intact in 1944." Do these
comments suggest that the gas chambers at Majdanek may in fact have been
disinfestation gas chambers? At least, don't these comments suggest that
there has not yet been a thorough investigation into the purpose of these
rooms? *

* In what can only be considered an unfortunate example of how major
disputes between Holocaust historians are shielded from the public, the
same room Pressac describes in his book as a "disinfestation gas chamber"
is featured in the book "The World Must Know", the official book of the
U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington D.C., written by Museum
director Dr. Michael Berenbaum. In that book, Berenbaum describes the room
as a HOMICIDAL gas chamber and, what's more, a CASTING of this room was
made for display AT THE MUSEUM, as PROOF of the homicidal gas chambers!
Thus, in both Berenbaum's book AND in the Museum itself, the ONLY material
proof given of homicidal gassings is THIS ROOM, a room Pressac staunchly
believes to be a disinfestation gas chamber (in fact, in his Auschwitz
book, Pressac actually RIDICULES those who say that this Majdanek room is
proof of homicidal gassings, and criticizes everyone from the man who
prosecuted Faurisson in France to the Majdanek State Museum personnel for
perpetuating a fraud).

38) To sum up the Majdanek gas chamber issue: If we take Pressac's comments
and then factor in the doors that don't lock, the doors that open INTO the
gas chamber, the doors with latches that can be manipulated from both the
outside AND the inside, the window in gas chamber 1, the room inside gas
chamber 1, the lack of any Zyklon B induction hole in gas chamber 3, the
lack of any ZyklonB traces in gas chamber 2 (which DOES have a "Zyklon B
induction hole"), the heavy blue stains on the OUTSIDE of the building, and
the location of the building, at the bottom of a hill, at the opposite end
of the camp from the crematorium, is it reasonable to suggest that these
rooms were delousing chambers?

But does anyone give a damn that the general public, by the millions, might
be receiving fraudulent information? Some might suggest that disputes such
as these should be kept private so as not to shake the public's confidence
in Holocaust history, or in Holocaust historians. But don't you think we
have a RESPONSIBILITY not to knowingly feed the public falsehoods or
unproven claims disguised as unquestioned facts? Don't you think we have a
responsibility to be honest about our research? If not, what makes us any
different from the "historians" of the Soviet Union, or Hitler's Germany,
who knowingly tailored their research to produce a politically expedient
conclusion? When the ends begin justifying the means, watch integrity go
flying out the window.

As bad as the public misinformation about Majdanek is, the Stalin-esque
purging of Pressac's "Auschwitz; Technique and Operation of the Gas
Chambers" from the official record is worse. This masterwork of
historiography, once loudly heralded in the press (see enclosed clippings),
is NOW nowhere to be found when references to Pressac are made. A recent
article in "Publishers Weekly", detailing a'forthcoming U.S. Holocaust
Museum book containing 29 original essays from Holocaust scholars including
Berenbaum and Pressac, not only neglects to mention Pressac's gas chamber
book, but seems to suggest that Pressac's conversion from revisionist to
gas chamber believer'came only recently, as he was researching his
just-published "slim volume" about the Auschwitz crematoria. The entire
period of the 1980's, which Pressac spent researching his gas chamber book
after his "conversion", is omitted.

Yet scholars around the world continue to use Pressac's gas chamber book
(if they're lucky enough to have one of the few copies), mainly because,
even if one disagrees with Pressac's conclusions, his book is STILL the
best (and the only) single source for the blueprints, construction slips,
alteration plans, and inter-office communiques regarding the Auschwitz "gas
chambers" Neither side in this debate agrees entirely with Pressac...but
for the gas chamber supporters, his book is an embarrassment because it IS
so thorough. It is the most thorough work yet produced about the gas
chambers, yet Pressac cannot find that elusive objective proof of gassings.
So now, apparently, the historians have just decided to pretend the book
doesn't exist.

I've always referred to the Pressac gas chamber book as the most popular
book that never existed!

Now, for the sake of this posting there's more that needs to be addressed.
First, in trying to ascertain the purpose of the four rooms in question, it
must be understood that, ACCORDING TO EXTERMINATIONISTS, there were no
"specially built" homicidal gas chambers. Already existing rooms were
ADAPTED for the purpose of murder by gas. Therefore, in trying to study any
particular 'gas chamber,' there will be, according to exterminationists,
TWO functions to that room. FIRST, what the room INITIALLY WAS. Second, the
homicidal gas chamber function. So, at Auschwitz we have Krema l, first
supposedly a munitions storage bunker, than a morgue, THEN a gas chamber,
then an air-raid shelter; Kremas 2 and 3, planned as morgues and
crematoriums, then adapted to be used as gas chambers; Krema 4 and 5,
crematoriums with rooms adapted for occasional gassings. At Mauthausan we
have a shower room supposedly used as a gas chamber. Ditto at Dachau
(although THAT chamber was "never used"). At Struthof-Natzweiler we have an
SS tear gas training room (See Pressac; "The Struthof Album") adapted for a
one-time homicidal gassing. At Stutthof we have a delousing room adapted
for homicidal gassings, and at Majdanek, the same thing; delousing rooms
supposedly ADAPTED for homicidal gassings.

Now, proving the "benign" purpose of these rooms is easy. The munitions
bunker, morgue, and air-raid shelter phase of Krema 1 is in evidence on the
blueprints of this room, and an empirical study shows that this room could
effectively function as a munitions bunker, morgue, and air-raid shelter.
The "gas chamber" rooms of Kremas 2 and 3 are' designated as morgues in the
blueprints, and, as Pressac points out, were built specifically to function
as morgues...which in many instances meant functioning the opposite way
that would be required for homicidal gassings. The Mauthausen "gas chamber"
is designated as a shower, and an empirical study shows it to be a working
shower room. The Stutthof "gas chamber" is designated as a delousing room,
and an empirical study shows it could function as such. The same goes for
the Majdanek "gas chambers." The Majdanek rooms are fitted with standard
deiousing chamber doors, complete with fittings for gas detectors. The
rooms are in a building designated as the "Bath and Disinfection" building,
and are next door to a large communal shower and bath room. We are told by
Majdanek Museum personnel that the victims were given a shower in this room
only to be marched into the NEXT room and gassed. I've never quite seen the
point of "cleaning" the victims, who are just going to become covered with
blood, vomit, and feces when they're gassed. The Majdanek "Bath and
Disinfection" building mirrors the design of other such buildings at other
Nazi concentration camps, with a place to cut the hair, a shower room, and
delousing rooms for the clothing.

So now, as investigators, what do we do? We've concluded that these rooms
all had normal purposes, and now we must see what evidence exists for the
claims of HOMICIDAL ADAPTATION. The excerpt from my "46 Questions" contain
some of the negative evidence for homicidal usage, i.e. things that would
have made homicidal usage difficult or impossible. Mike Stein's claim that
"if (a gas chamber) can kill lice, it can kill people - far more easily, in
fact" is ridiculous. Lice can't open doors, or escape through windows, or
block the gassing machinery. Lice aren't aware of their impending death and
even if they are (perhaps Mr. Stein is suggesting that German lice are a
kind of 'uber-lice," with cognitive abilities on a human level) there's not
much they can do about it. And dead lice bodies don't block doors that open
in. Even a thousand dead lice wouldn't hamper the opening of a gas chamber
door.

Zyklon B is like modern fumigants - it could be used to delouse a home, a
barn, a stable, etc. Mike Stein could gas lice in his own living room, but
I doubt he could homicidally gas large groups of people there unless he
boarded all the windows, doors, and exits to other rooms. And he'd have to
introduce the gas in a way that couldn't be blocked or interrupted by the
victims. The Germans had differently designed delousing rooms, including
one in which the Zyklon was warmed inside the room, on a kind of "hot
plate." No one has ever suggested that THIS method was used homicidally,
for the obvious reason that clothing, mattresses, and lice couldn't knock
over the hot plate to save their lives, but people could. Gas chamber
theorists have always had to come up with methods of "surprising" the
victims with the Zyklon B, i.e. pouring it in through holes in the roof, or
down metal shafts.

The presence of peepholes in the doors to chambers 2, 3 and 4 fails to
prove homicidal usage. It was standard for German delousing rooms to have
peepholes...just check out the massive delousing facilities at Birkenau, or
at least check out the pictures of them, as can be seen in Pressac's book
among others. Plus, remember that it is agreed that the Majdanek rooms were
built as REGULAR DELOUSING ROOMS and, the exterminationists claim, only
later MODIFIED for homicidal usage. The doors with peepholes were installed
when the room was just an ordinary delousing room. The fact that the
hemispherical grid covers the peephole on the OUTSIDE of the door (as the
grids do at several Birkenau delousing chambers, and the Canada compound
delousing chamber featured prominently in Pressac's "Auschwitz" book)
proves that the grids were meant to keep someone OUTSIDE the room from
breaking the glass. That was the point of the grids. They were standard
safety features on delousing room doors. Some delousing doors were built
with even more stringent safety features, like a sliding metal cover (to
cover the peephole or inspection window entirely).

So, I'll repeat the question; what proof exists for homicidal gassings in
these rooms? What proof exists that these rooms were ever used.for anything
other than their original purpose (delousing rooms)?

This brings us to the "carbon monoxide piping" allegedly leading to a room
containing "steel cylinders for carbon monoxide." Such piping is indeed
evident in chambers 2 and 3. Now, any halfway intelligent human (excepting,
apparently, Fred Leuchter) would see that this "piping" is just tacked onto
the wall. In other words, it doesn't LEAD anywhere! It doesn't go THROUGH
the wall. It doesn't enter the wall in any way. And the "carbon monoxide
cylinders" in the other room aren't attached to anything. They're just
sitting there, leaning up against the wall. And there's no hole where any
piping from any other rooms might once have entered this room. In other
words there's piping tacked to a wall, and two cylinders laying around in
another room. How did the piping lead into the "cylinder room?" Through the
open door of the gas chamber!?!

EMPIRICALLY, the piping looks like decoration.  But in history as in
all other disciplines, it always helps to get a second opinion.  Maybe
I was missing something.  Unlike those who attack me, I don't claim to
know it all.  Throughout my years as a revisionist, I have always tried
to talk with ALL Holocaust scholars, ESPECIALLY those who are on the
"other side" of this debate.  We always need to challenge our ideas and
assumptions by running them past critical eyes.  So now we get to the
good part.  During my last trip to Europe I met, separately, with two
gentlemen of some importance in the Holocaust-scholar community; French
Holocaust author Jean-Claude Pressac and Tomasz Kranz, Curator of the
Majdanek State Museum.  I met with Monsieur Pressac at his pharmacy
outside Paris.  I met with Tomasz Kranz in his office on the grounds of
the Majdanek camp in Lublin, Poland.  Mr.  Kranz is fluent in English. 
Mr.  Pressac understands some English but refuses to speak it - typical
Frenchman! - although to be fair I understand French (from taking it
for three years in junior high) but prefer to speak English.  So, to
avoid any misunderstandings or misinterpretations, a translator was
present (a Frenchman extremely fluent in English among other
languages).  Also along for the ride was a non-revisionist friend of
mine from the U.S.

I have by now come to realize that most Holocaust scholars ALWAYS have two
different points of view about the gas chambers; the one they have in
public, and the one they have in private. When I speak to these gentlemen
and ladies privately, they are always very candid. How can they not be -
the flaws with the gas chambers are so obvious. Speaking one on one is
different then "performing" in front of an audience (like, say, on a TV
talk show). In that kind of format one is tempted to play to the audience,
paying constant attention to who is "winning" the popularity contest. In
private, absent an audience and TV cameras, people tend to be more honest
and open, especially when two people realize that they're both so
well-versed in the subject at hand that the "tricks" one can play on an
ignorant audience won't work. So, for a few brief, fleeting minutes or
hours the facts get discussed, both people safe in the knowledge that the
conversation never goes any further than that room. The world will continue
to think one thing, while the scholars know something different. This is
Holocaust history; welcome to it. Hooray for secrecy, right? How many of
you Internet folks decry the secrecy surrounding things like the Kennedy
assassination, or Iran Contra, or (for you conservative Internetters)
Whitewater? Yet you probably approve of secrecy in the case of the gas
chambers. I came to understand that after released my interview with
Auschwitz State Museum Senior Curator Dr. Franciszek Piper. Even though I
released the raw footage, WHICH DOESN'T HAVE A SINGLE CUT IN IT (so much
for the notion that I "creatively edited" the tape), I was STILL
castigated. How DARE I release such a tape. Such things should be kept
secret.

You're ALL potential censors, ALL potential "Warren Commissions." Most
people favor cover-ups when the truth is painful for THEM.

So what was said in Europe? Well, Curator Kranz, when confronted with my
points about his "gas chambers," had to admit that he doesn't believe that
the big chamber, chamber 1, was EVER used homicidally (I mean, it's SO
friggin' obvious). He sheepishly admitted that chamber 1 wasn't a homicidal
gas chamber, and, moreover, he could present no proof that any of the other
rooms were used homicidally, either. But, ever the optimist, he said that
"one day" he'd get around to researching those rooms, and then he'd find
some evidence of homicidal usage! He's been the curator at Majdanek for ten
years.  Yet he's apparently been too busy to prove his own gas chambers
(this is understandable, since Lublin is such a swingin' place)! What's
worse, Kranz continues to show off chamber 1 as a homicidal gas
chamber, even though he doesn't believe it is.  Kranz (who, unlike the
general public, has access to the Majdanek Camp archives) confirmed to
me that the doors in the chambers are all original - that is, they are
the doors used in those rooms when the Nazis ran the camp.  It was good
to hear that confirmed by someone who'd seen the archives, but the
authenticity of the doors was fairly obvious from my empirical
observations - each door is inscribed, making the provenance easy to
detect.  Plus each door was DESIGNED to be a delousing chamber door but
(and here's the important part Mr.  Stein) the design of these doors
(the way they lock, the way they open, the peepholes) PRECLUDES any use
as HOMICIDAL gas chamber doors.  In other words, these doors were for
rooms where you kill lice, which everyone (revisionist and
non-revisionist alike) agrees was the "benign" original purpose of
these rooms.  Chambers for killing people would have had to have been
designed differently.

If Tomasz Kranz weakened the Majdanek homicidal gas chamber theory, Pressac
damn near snuffed it out entirely. Of course, Pressac understands that it's
ridiculous to even CONSIDER homicidal gassings in chamber 1, but he ALSO
doubts (or is that "denies," Ms. Lipstadt?) homicidal gassings in chambers
3 and 4! And his evidence for homicidal gassings in chamber 2? "Ah,
Monsieur Cole," he pointed out (in French, of course - these are his
translated comments), "the carbon monoxide piping!" "But, my dear Monsieur
Pressac," I responded, "you are no doubt aware that this piping leads
nowhere, and is just tacked onto the wall?"

Pressac paused a moment. He bowed his head. Not out of respect to me, I'm
sure. He was just sorry his last line of defense had crumbled. "You are
right," he said. "It leads nowhere. It couldn't be part of any working
'carbon monoxide gas chamber.' It was probably added after liberation."

"And the cylinders of carbon monoxide?" I asked..."There were no cylinders
of carbon monoxide found in that building at liberation. The Soviets
brought them in from elsewhere" Pressac responded.

REPRESENTATIONAL cylinders, you see. And REPRESENTATIONAL piping. They
exist for show. And Pressac had to admit that absent the piping and
cylinders, there's no proof for homicidal gassings in room 2, either.
Pressac has had what all revisionists (and most other folks) have been
denied; access to the Majdanek archives and the private counsel of the
Majdanek Museum personnel. Pressac knows the truth.

Crudely sticking some pipes on a wall and pronouncing the room a "carbon
monoxide gas chamber" is like nailing a shirt to a wall and calling the
room a "clothing delousing room." You have to do better than that! This is
not the first time the Soviets/Poles have been caught tampering with gas
chamber evidence. Pressac admits that, at Majdanek, the "heater/circulator"
found attached to chamber 1 was swiped from chamber 4 (the marks in chamber
4 where the heater/ circulator had once been are still evident). The
Soviets/Poles probably liked the idea of a big gas chamber, and since
chamber 3 is fairly small and chambers 2 and 4 are very small, chamber 1
probably looked like a good place to inaugurate a "gas chamber." In
reality, chamber 1 was most likely a storage room for gassed items (to be
fair to Leuchter, he made this observation as well. I'll add that the true
purpose of chamber 1 could more easily be determined if the Majdanek
archives were opened).

And we all know that the Soviets created the four "Zyklon B induction
holes" in the roof of Krema 1 at the Auschwitz Main Camp. But now we get to
another important issue: Yes, the Soviets carved out the four "Zyklon B
induction holes" in the roof of the Krema 1 "gas chamber," but they CLAIM
that they were just faithfully "restoring" REAL holes that had once been
there. The fact that the Soviets created the holes that are there now DOES
NOT BY ITSELF prove that there never WERE holes in that roof AT ONE TIME.
However, the Soviet-created holes CANNOT be used as PROOF of gassings, as
they were for so many years until the Auschwitz State Museum came clean
(tourists are now told AS SOON AS THEY ENTER KREMA 1 that the room has had
extensive post-liberation work done to it, and specifically that the four
roof holes were added after liberation and are not original. Previously,
tourists were told that the room is in its "original state" and that the
four holes are "original." The fact that this change JUST SO HAPPENED to
coincide with the release of my documentary "David Cole Interviews Dr.
Franciszek Piper" is just a coincidence, of course. The Auschwitz State
Museum was planning to change the spiel anyway. Yeah. Sure.).

If you want to try to prove homicidal gassings in Krema 1, you can no
longer use the four holes presently in the roof as proof. You have to
present proof that there were four holes in the roof BEFORE liberation. And
it gets harder still; Pressac believes that the Soviets got it all wrong.
There were THREE holes, he says, not four. And the three holes ran in a
straight line, not in rows of two like the Soviets drilled. So, before
liberation, were there three holes or four? Once again I'll say that such a
disagreement can only exist because of the lack of proof of a gas chamber
in Krema 1. Whatever the evidence for gassings, it apparently isn't good
enough to provide us with a description of the chamber that every scholar
can agree on. If we can't tell if there were three or four holes, how do we
know there were any?

Just as it is with the four roof holes in Krema 1, the fact that the
Soviets fabricated the "carbon monoxide piping" DOESN'T CONCLUSIVELY
PROVE that there was never piping there AT ONE TIME.  It simply means
that one can't use the present piping as proof of anything (except
Soviet tampering).  The burden is on gas chamber theorists to prove
that there was, at some time between 1941 and 1944, a system for
introducing carbon monoxide into any of those rooms.  So what proof
have you got?

Now, if you try to say that there was once piping in these rooms but the
Nazis "covered up" all traces of it (no Holocaust scholar has ever tried to
claim this, but it seems like the typical rationalization of the
conspiracy-minded), you're going to run up against a barrier in the name of
"traditional history." You see, the standard, traditional story about the
liberation of Majdanek is that the camp was liberated in a SURPRISE ATTACK,
taking the Nazis by such surprise that they didn't have time to "cover up"
or destroy their "gas chambers," the "evidence" of their crime. Time was so
short that they only had enough of it to destroy the crematorium, but not
the gas chambers. They didn't even have time to hide or remove the cans of
Zyklon B. It is an oft-repeated story (with no documentary evidence, of
course) that Hitler was so enraged by this turn of events that he threw a
temper tantrum, castigating his underlings for allowing his precious gas
chambers to fall intact into enemy hands! And indeed the Soviets played
Majdanek to the hilt; the world press was invited to see the "intact gas
chambers."

It would have taken a certain amount of time for the Nazis to have so
flawlessly erased any traces of the ducts that connected the carbon
monoxide piping from room to room. What's more, no one has ever alleged
that this was done. So if you try to claim "cover up" nowadays, you're
changing standard Holocaust history! Isn't that the "crime" revisionists
are charged with?

But let's not guess when we don't have to.  A simple excavation of the
walls of chambers 2 and 3 should determine if there ever were ducts for
carbon monoxide.  Why fear this simple examination, especially if it
can answer our questions once and for all? It wouldn't mean destroying
the entire building and, besides, others have suggested more extreme
ideas (Pressac wants to raze the ruins of Kremas 2 and 3 and build
"faux" gas chambers in their place, so that tourists can experience
what it would have been like to walk into gas chambers).  The Soviets
have already shifted and rebuilt evidence at Birkenau, and Majdanek, so
why not burrow into chambers 2 and 3 to get some definite answers?

And while we're at it, why not push for the opening of the Majdanek
archives? Why should such archives be closed? How many of you out there
campaigned for the release of the "Kennedy assassination files" held,
classified, by our government until Oliver Stone's film popularized the
cause? Why not get all the gas chamber information out in the open? Why are
many of you (seemingly) afraid of "full disclosure" on this matter? At the
very least, if YOU'HE not interested in answering the unanswered questions,
please don't attack those of us who are.

I for one would not be afraid of any further disclosures or investigations,
NOT because I "know" I'm right about the gas chambers, but because WHATEVER
the outcome, I'd be more than pleased to accept it. I have nothing invested
in revisionism. I don't make a living from it, and, since I unreservedly
believed in the gas chambers for most of my life, I could go back to
believing in them with no problems if the evidence convinced me. I only
wanted my questions addressed. But that's in the past for me now, so I'll
say instead that I hope these questions intrigue someone else, and perhaps
one day that someone else can get these questions answered. And whoever
that "someone else" may be, let me say best of luck to you, pal. You'Il
need it.




From oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!sunserver.insinc.net!news.Direct.CA!hookup!caen!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!agate!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!csus.edu!netcom.com!codfish Thu Jan 26 04:54:52 PST 1995
Article: 21710 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: A Lurker Responds
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References: <3f3vfh$a24@jabba.cybernetics.net> 
Date: Mon, 23 Jan 1995 06:08:10 GMT
Lines: 18

Jamie McCarthy (k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu) wrote:
: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

: > dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas) wrote:
: > 
: > > But the thing I can't see is why someone would
: > > enter into a public debate and present a case based on what they know to
: > > be lies.

: I forgot to add:  follow the money.  Holocaust-denial is very profitable.
: They say whatever will get them the cash, and its truth or falsity is of
: very little consequence to them.

As I have pointed out before, the only revisionists I known of who are
making a living at it are the people at the IHR, Bradley Smith, and Ernst
Zuendel.  For the rest of us, it's a labor of love. 

                            Ross Vicksell


From oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!sunserver.insinc.net!news.Direct.CA!hookup!caen!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!agate!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!csus.edu!netcom.com!codfish Thu Jan 26 04:54:53 PST 1995
Article: 21716 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: "Revisionist scholars"
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
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Date: Mon, 23 Jan 1995 06:36:43 GMT
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Jeffrey G. Brown (jeff_brown@pol.com) wrote:
: In article , codfish@netcom.com (Ross
: Vicksell) wrote:

: > k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy) writes:
: > >Do we have a wager?
: > 
: > You're on! Of course they have to be net revisionists talking about other
: > net revisionists.  A "net revisionist" is someone who posts to the net. I
: > regard this as a fair restriction, since Keren normally applies the term
: > to us net revisionists, as above, though he sometimes uses it on real
: > revisionist scholars.

: There's nothing 'fair' about that restriction at all, Vicksell. You're
: deliberately limiting the source material that Jamie can use, in order to
: make it more likely that he'd lose the wager.

: Looks like a typical 'revisionist scholar' ruse to me.

I stated one reason for wishing to restrict the search area to 
alt.revisionism.  Another is that it's the world all of our readers can 
relate to.  Obviously, references to "revisionist scholars" are easy to 
come by on the printed page.  My counteroffer still stands.

                      Ross Vicksell

: JGB

: =====================================================================
: Jeffrey G. Brown                                   jeff_brown@pol.com
:  "What's going to happen?"   "Something wonderful..."   -- '2010'


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Article: 21724 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Mauthausen "Gas Chamber"
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References: <3g0884$14n@molnir.brunel.ac.uk> <3g0etk$lpn@ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Jan 1995 15:06:10 GMT
Lines: 12

Annie Alpert (anny@ix.netcom.com) wrote:

: It's about time you accepted the fact that the Nazis did terrible things 
: to innocent people--with malice aforethought.  Those people had lives 
: and homes and health until they were kidnapped and enslaved.  Focusing 
: narrowly to cast doubt on one aspect of the crime doesn't eliminate the 
: true evil that was done.  It happened.  Accept it.

Trying to establish what "it" was is, I thought, the main point of our 
discussion.

                           Ross


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Article: 21770 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: A History of denial for Ricky J
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References: <3g6rgo$fh2@ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 26 Jan 1995 23:43:52 GMT
Lines: 16

Annie Alpert (anny@ix.netcom.com) wrote:

: The subject of "Revisionism" did not spring whole from the
: head of Zeus, nor did you discover it.  It's been around
: since the end of the war beginning with Paul Rassinier, a
: French Communist anti-Semite who spent time in Buchenwald
: and Dora until 1945.  Rassinier's contention was that the
: number of Jewish war dead was grossly exaggerated and hinted
: that Israel had a stake in the deception.

Rassinier was a French socialist anti-communist.  

                     Ross Vicksell





From oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!torn!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!garnet.berkeley.edu!schultz Sat Jan 28 20:19:18 PST 1995
Article: 21771 of alt.revisionism
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From: schultz@garnet.berkeley.edu (Richard Schultz)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: DDT and the Gas Chamber Myth
Date: 27 Jan 1995 12:18:22 GMT
Organization: Philosophers of the Dangerous Maybe
Lines: 15
Distribution: usa
Message-ID: <3gaoae$k7s@agate.berkeley.edu>
References: <3fsfpd$dba@transit.nyser.net> <3ftmel$6p4@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>  <3g9b1v$8p4@access4.digex.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: garnet.berkeley.edu

In article <3g9b1v$8p4@access4.digex.net>,
Michael P. Stein  wrote:

>    I haven't verified your references, but just on probabilistic 
>grounds I'd guess it was true; the US probably wasn't too interested in 
>dealing with Germany.

I was under the impression that U.S. industrial firms had dealings with
German firms such as I.G. Farben for much of the war.  The business 
dealings were done via Switzerland.
--
					Richard Schultz
             "an optimist is a guy
              that has never had
              much experience"


From oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!torn!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!garnet.berkeley.edu!schultz Sat Jan 28 20:19:19 PST 1995
Article: 21773 of alt.revisionism
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From: schultz@garnet.berkeley.edu (Richard Schultz)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: DDT and the Gas Chamber Myth
Date: 27 Jan 1995 12:27:10 GMT
Organization: Philosophers of the Dangerous Maybe
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <3gaoqu$k9c@agate.berkeley.edu>
References: <3fsfpd$dba@transit.nyser.net> <3ftmel$6p4@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>  
NNTP-Posting-Host: garnet.berkeley.edu

In article ,
Jamie McCarthy  wrote:

>This was the same Germany that was forcing Switzerland
>to seriously compromise its neutrality or risk invasion, remember?

Do you mean Switzerland or Sweden?  The Germans shipped troops from
Norway to Finland across Sweden.  I believe the attitude was "we're going
to do this, how do you plan to stop us?"  This topic once came up in
a conversation I had with a Swede, and he told me that the current joke
in Sweden (at the time, the subject was in the media, I guess because it
had been suppressed for many years) was that it took the Germans three
weeks to conquer France, but Sweden took the length of a phone call.
--
					Richard Schultz

"Life is a blur of Republicans and meat."   -- Zippy


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Article: 21788 of alt.revisionism
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From: mstein@access.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: DDT and the Gas Chamber Myth
Date: 26 Jan 1995 18:25:51 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 25
Distribution: usa
Message-ID: <3g9b1v$8p4@access4.digex.net>
References: <3fsfpd$dba@transit.nyser.net> <3ftmel$6p4@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net

In article ,
Ross Vicksell  wrote:
>Would someone please address the point made by Lang, namely that the 
>allies could have made it possible for the Germans to get DDT, but didn't?
>Thank you.

    I haven't verified your references, but just on probabilistic 
grounds I'd guess it was true; the US probably wasn't too interested in 
dealing with Germany.

    But what's the point?  If you want to say that fewer people would have
died of typhus in the camps if the US had provided the DDT, that is
probably true.  However, this was not the only cause of death.  Not even
considering deliberate murder, if more people had survived the typhus,
there would have been more mouths to feed; an increase in starvation 
would have been likely.  You can't eat DDT.

    Would you now please address the point that the Nazis could have
accepted Jews, homosexuals and gypsies as equal citizens, and let them
lead normal lives, but didn't?  Thank you.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!torn!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netnews Sat Jan 28 20:19:22 PST 1995
Article: 21793 of alt.revisionism
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From: anny@ix.netcom.com (Annie Alpert)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A History of denial for Ricky J
Date: 27 Jan 1995 15:56:18 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 19
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <3gb532$jo0@ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>
References: <3g6rgo$fh2@ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: ix-nwk4-20.ix.netcom.com

In  codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) 
writes: 

>Rassinier was a French socialist anti-communist.  
>

Of course, you're right, Ross.  I mistyped it...although Rassinier 
briefly joined the Communist Party when he was 16, he joined the 
Socialists in 1932.  He was ousted from the French Chamber of Deputies 
by the French Communist Party in 1946 and held a grudge after that. 

My opionion is that he was anti-Semitic because he was also 
anti-Communist and felt that Jews were somehow responsible for 
Communism.


-- 
Annie Alpert
"History is bunk" --Henry Ford

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