The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/v/vicksell.ross/1994/vicksell.1294


Article 19536 of alt.revisionism:
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Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Greg reply to Dave in Scotland
Message-ID: <1994Nov27.030432.34723@miavx1>
From: bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu (Raskolnikov)
Date: 27 Nov 94 03:04:32 -0500
References:    
Organization: Miami University
Lines: 36

In article , codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) writes:
> Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com) wrote:
> : In article , cendbj@clust.hw.ac.uk
> : (David Johnston) wrote:
> : > If you assert that the 
> : > Holocaust did not happen, then those who come forward 
> : > as eyewitnesses saying that it did, and that they saw part of it, must be 
> : > lying. Therefore, 
> : > either somebody told them what to say, they all made it up, 
> : > or they are all suffering from a mass delusion. If it is a mass
> : > delusion, then 
> : > it is unprecedented in history. If they all made it up, the stories show a 
> : > remarkable consistency. 
> 
> Not remarkable at all.  They merely copy each others stories.


Including letters written between Nazis during the war?

You know, the one's describing the gassing? How about 
the ones written by Hans Frank, who complained that the order 
(and the execution of that order) to exterminate the Jews had
so seriously hampered his slave labor program?  

I'll post an example if requested.

wow. Those Nazis must have been _telepathic_ to have copied
the stories of people they'd never even met.

I guess they were the "master race" after all.  (not)

=======================================================================
Brian Harmon         "We are most unfair to God: we do not allow
Miami University	   	him to sin.." 
Oxford, Ohio 45056  			-- Friedrich Nietzsche
--------------bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu--------------------------


Article 19537 of alt.revisionism:
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From: stara@fas.harvard.edu (Felix Vagabond)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hitler, Raven, and the IHR (was: Re: World wide web holoc
Date: 27 Nov 1994 13:44:04 GMT
Organization: Harvard University, Cambridge, Massachusetts
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Ross Vicksell (codfish@netcom.com) wrote:
: Charles R.L. Power (karlpov@access3.digex.net) wrote:
: : dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes:

: : >It is interesting to see that this rabid dog also wrote in
: : >his book "Mein Kampf" that he wished to see Jews exposed to
: : >poison gas. It seems that even long before the Holocaust, he
: : >considered not only killing the Jews, but also the methods
: : >to be used.

: : But this can be, reasonably, interpreted in the context of the mustard 
: : gassing of WW1.  Hitler supposedly wished that the draft-dodging Jews had 
: : been in the trenches to take the mustard gas into their lungs as had the 
: : good German-Aryan soldiers.  (Hitler ignored the fact that Jews were, in 
: : fact, well represented in the WW1 German army.  Something like Pat 
: : Buchanan with some idiotic remark he made about the Gulf War a few years 
: : back.)

: : Christopher Browning, Yehuda Bauer and other solid Holocaust historians
: : have been at some pains to establish that the Holocaust as we know it
: : could not have been reasonably anticipated from prior Nazi pronouncements,
: : which is why, in the thirties, Zionists were concerned not only with
: : rescuing Jews from the Third Reich but also with making Palestine/Israel
: : economically viable, since they saw little good in taking Jews from one
: : hostile environment into another where they could not prosper. 

: I have to agree. Furthermore, no Hitler order for the gassing of the Jews
: has ever been found.  All David Irving's troubles started when he noted
: this fact, in Hitler's War. 

  Ross Hitler always dealt in scret even with his top aids.
  
 "[For the details of the move itself Hitler gave orders and instructions to
 Bormann or to Field Marshal Keitel, who transmitted them to the individuals
 or services concerned. Each one had to ensure that they continue their work
 during the journey. The lion's share of work was done by the two aids_decamp,
 Fritz Darges and Otto Gu"nsche. They organised everything, arranging the 
 transportation of materials, checking the timetable of the special train 
 which was always standing by wherever Hitler was, and giving instructions to
 the personnel who were to remain in the camp. Everything was accomplished in
 the greatest secrecy and as quickly as possible.] pp 45.Last wintness in the
 bunker.from Frau Junge.


: Hitler was more concerned with what happened to Europe in the face of the 
: red onslaught than what happened to the Jews.  Too bad the western allies 
: didn't care a little more about the red tide.  (They did care to the 
: extent of invading France before the Russians could sweep over all of 
: Europe.)
:


  Please Ross for whoever sake! Look at it from the these facts:
  Here was Hitler with mighty army in Europe for what reason, but to conquer
  and defeat the French for wwI, and to increase his prestige.
  Hitler saw to it that Jews needed to be "Ausrotten" exterminated.....etc.
  So please spare me the typing for I hate it the most.
 
                                    
:                              Ross Vicksell

--
==============================================================================
  ( No memorial can ever exhibit or impart the holocaust of SIX MILLION Jews)

                   VIGILANS.ET AUDAX.SEMPER PARATUS.
              
==============================================================================



Article 19555 of alt.revisionism:
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From: eye@interlog.com (eye WEEKLY)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Squealing of Hoffman
Date: Sun, 27 Nov 1994 15:20:45 -0500
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codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) writes:

> I'm talking about the Holocaust promoters who destroyed the 
> careers of Ernst Zuendel ...

Thank you, Ross.  That's my chuckle for the week.

What, pray tell, was Herr Zundel's career before it was "destroyed"?  If I 
recall, he wrote and promoted a book claiming UFOs were secret Nazi weapons 
and that Hitler was alive and well and living inside a hole in the Earth at 
the South Pole (a hole from which all flying saucers emanate)... 

Alas... such a promising career, cut so tragically short.

Ken.





Article 19558 of alt.revisionism:
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: The Geneva Convention on POWs (was: Re: Deliberate starvation...)
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Date: Sun, 27 Nov 1994 21:46:26 GMT
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As Keith Morisson notes, The 1929 Geneva agreement is an amplification of 
the 1907 Hague one.  Just for the record, here's the relevant article 
from the Geneva agreement:

From the 1929 Geneva Accords:

SECTION II. RELEASE AND REPATRIATION UPON CESSATION OF HOSTILITIES

                       ARTICLE LXXV

When belligerents conclude a convention of armistice, they must, in 
principle, have appear therein stipulations regarding repatriation of 
prisoners of war.  If it has has not been possible to insert stipulations 
in this regard in such convention, belligerents shall nevertheless come to
an agreement in this regard as soon as possible.  In any case,
repatriation of prisoners shall be effected with the least possible delay
after the conclusion of peace.

Prisoners of war against whom a penal prosecution might be pending for a 
crime or offense of municipal law may, however, be detained until the end 
of the proceedings and, if necessary, until the expiration of the 
punishment.  The same shall be true of those sentenced for a crime or 
offense of municipal law.

On agreement between the belligerents, commissions may be established for 
the purpose of searching for dispersed prisoners and assuring their 
repatriation.




Article 19559 of alt.revisionism:
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From: karlpov@access3.digex.net (Charles R.L. Power)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Geneva Convention on POWs (was: Re: Deliberate starvation...)
Date: 27 Nov 1994 17:56:57 -0500
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codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) writes:

>As Keith Morisson notes, The 1929 Geneva agreement is an amplification of 
>the 1907 Hague one.  Just for the record, here's the relevant article 
>from the Geneva agreement:

>From the 1929 Geneva Accords:

>SECTION II. RELEASE AND REPATRIATION UPON CESSATION OF HOSTILITIES

>                       ARTICLE LXXV

>When belligerents conclude a convention of armistice, they must, in 
>principle, have appear therein stipulations regarding repatriation of 
>prisoners of war.  If it has has not been possible to insert stipulations 
>in this regard in such convention, belligerents shall nevertheless come to
>an agreement in this regard as soon as possible.  In any case,
>repatriation of prisoners shall be effected with the least possible delay
>after the conclusion of peace.

I thought we were talking about German prisoners in occupied Germany.  
Doesn't that meet your definition of "repatriated"?  Where did you think 
they should have been repatriated to?



Article 19561 of alt.revisionism:
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: The Geneva Convention on POWs (was: Re: Deliberate starvation...)
Message-ID: 
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Charles R.L. Power (karlpov@access3.digex.net) wrote:

: I thought we were talking about German prisoners in occupied Germany.  
: Doesn't that meet your definition of "repatriated"?  Where did you think 
: they should have been repatriated to?

German soldiers were kept prisoner for months, and in some cases for 
years, after the war - not just in Germany but in France, Britain, Austria, 
etc.  (None, apparently, in the U.S.)  

Thousands of the ones that were "repatriated" to the Rhine valley camps, 
wound up being turned over to the French for further processing.




Article 19566 of alt.revisionism:
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: The Geneva Convention on POWs (was: Re: Deliberate starvation...) 
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Date: Mon, 28 Nov 1994 03:47:41 GMT
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Keith Morrison (t08o@adrastea.sun.csd.unb.ca) wrote:
: =========================================================================
: The Hague Convention IV (1907) Article 43

: The authority of the legitimate power having in fact passed into the
: hands of the occupant, the latter shall take all the measures in his
: power to restore, and ensure, as far as possible, public order and
: safety(1), while respecting, unless absolutely prevented, the laws in
: force in the country.
: -------------
: (1) In the original French text "l'ordre et la vie publics"
: [note: section the article is taken from concerns the responsibilities]
: [of a power occupying the territory of the enemy                      ]
: =========================================================================

: If "the occupant" is considered the Western Allied nations, this section
: allows them to take any measure to ensure public order and safety.  I
: believe that the temporary internment of the POWs can thus by justified
: under this rule.  The Allies were concerned about a) catching those
: responsible for war crimes, b) keeping control over the territory they
: had just taken and c) ensuring a peaceful transition to civilian government.

: Internment for a few months can thus be justified because the POWs had to
: be screened for those guilty of war crimes.  

This, indeed, was used as excuse for keeping the German POWs interned -
the "Nazis" had to be weeded out.

: As well, since there was no
: national authority to turn the prisoners over to (the German state had
: ceased to exist) 

because, of course, it had been declared non-existent by the allies.  Ah, 
the magic of words.

: the Allies were justifiably concerned with the impact of
: millions of POWs turned loose at once within their jurisdiction.  Finally
: there was the justifiable concern that POWs immediately released would
: possibly form bands and fight the Allied invasion troops which would
: delay or even prevent a transition to civilian authority.

Funny thing, General George Patton set German prisoners free immediately 
upon capturing them, with no discernable bad effects.  And with regards 
to setting up or restoring the civilian administration in his part of the 
American zone, he refused to take "denazification" seriously.  Needless 
to say, he was called on the carpet by Eisenhower.  And that wasn't the 
half of it.

: Given these extenuating circumstances in light of Article 43, I believe
: internment did not strictly contravene the rules of POW treatment.  No
: matter what else went on _because_ of the internment it did not make the
: internment itself illegal.

: ---------------------------------------------------------------

: Keith Morrison

: "I never evade answering any specific posts, because I never, ever
:  commit anything to print that I am not willing to back up in detail."
:                                        - Wayne McGuire, 7 Nov 1994

: ************************************************************
: *t08o@unb.ca  *  My views are not those of the University  *
: ***************  of New Brunswick.  UNB never has views on *
: *             *  on anything, ever.                        *
: ************************************************************


Article 19569 of alt.revisionism:
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Greg reply to Dave in Scotland
Date: Sun, 27 Nov 1994 20:48:16 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
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In article <3av25c$4dp@riscsm.scripps.edu>, misrael@scripps.edu (Mark
Israel) wrote:
>    So those who affirm that there were gas chambers, including all the
> history professors, honestly believe that there were gas chambers, right?

I wouldn't say that, but it is possible that many do believe the gas
chambers to be as real as anything else, even though they themselves never
saw them.

> > There is immense power to be had by convincing others that one has 
> > experienced the ultimate victimization.
> 
>    Those who experienced the "ultimate victimization" are *dead*!

My point is that if you can convince others that you or some group with
which you are affiliated are the "ultimate victims," then you can gain a
great deal of power.

-- 
Greg Raven
greg.ihr@kaiwan.com
http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr
-----------------------------------------------------
For free information about the IHR, write to:
IHR, P.O. Box 241556, Newport Beach, CA 92659
Journal of Historical Review, $40 (6 issues per year)
The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, by Dr. Arthur Butz, $10 + $2 shipping


Article 19601 of alt.revisionism:
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From: misrael@scripps.edu (Mark Israel)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Greg Raven, how can 2.5 million be "not enough"?
Date: 28 Nov 1994 18:12:12 GMT
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In article <3av25c$4dp@riscsm.scripps.edu>, misrael@scripps.edu (Mark Israel) writes:
> In article , Ross Vicksell posts for Greg Raven:

>> When you look at the numbers of Jews missing of all causes, you see that 
>> there simply are not enough "missing" Jews to support the notion that the 
>> Nazis were murdering Jews left and right ... 
>
> What about the 2.5 million names in the Yad Vashem archive?

   Greg, you followed up to my post without addressing this question.
Please address it now.

--
misrael@scripps.edu			Mark Israel


Article 19608 of alt.revisionism:
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From: jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Deliberate starvation of Germans
Date: 29 Nov 1994 06:42:23 GMT
Organization: University of Alberta
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Ross Vicksell (codfish@netcom.com) wrote:
: Why were German POWs detained for months after the war, in violation of 
: the Geneva Accords?

Leaving aside the issue of what this question has to do with revisionist
history of the Holocaust, there might be a simpler answer than those
posted so far.  What would you rather the Allies had done?  Opened the
gates and let tens of thousands of prisoners roam on the countryside with
no means of feeding themselves or of returning to their homes?  Then what
question would you now be asking--how could the heartless Allies have
placed such an extra burden on a country already devastated by six years
of war?

It took more than a few months to demobilize the Allied armies.  Is it 
any surprise that it took some time to demobilize the German army?

It surprises me how often on a.r the sufferings of the German people are
blamed on anybody except the vicious regime which plunged them into war. 

--
John Morris                             
                          


Article 19609 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Greg reply to Dave in Scotland
Date: 28 Nov 1994 17:39:40 -0500
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In article ,
Ross Vicksell  wrote:
>Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com) wrote:
>: In article , cendbj@clust.hw.ac.uk
>: (David Johnston) wrote:
>: > If it is a mass delusion, then it is unprecedented in history. If 
>: > they all made it up, the stories show a remarkable consistency. 
>
>Not remarkable at all.  They merely copy each others stories.

    How are these stories communicated from person to person?

    How do so many people remember all the details of this lie?  (It is 
much harder to keep a lie straight than a true memory.)

    I've asked you the following quesiton before, but received no answer:
What is your EVIDENCE for all this, Ross?  So far you have provided none. 


> The Zionists, who wanted to establish a Jewish State in Palestine.

    Please provide details of how this hoax worked and was organized, 
including names, places, and dates.

    What is your EVIDENCE, Ross?  So far you have provided none.


>: > Who kept it going?
>
> The same.

    Maybe you share Greg Raven's myopia.  Let me make this easier for 
you to see.

    WHAT IS YOUR EVIDENCE, ROSS?  SO FAR YOU HAVE PROVIDED NONE. 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


Article 19610 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Greg reply to Dave in Scotland
Date: 28 Nov 1994 17:29:54 -0500
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In article ,
Greg Raven  wrote:
>In article , cendbj@clust.hw.ac.uk
>(David Johnston) wrote:
>> If you assert that the Holocaust did not happen, then those who come forward 
>> as eyewitnesses saying that it did, and that they saw part of it, must be 
>> lying. Therefore, either somebody told them what to say, they all made it up, 
>> or they are all suffering from a mass delusion. If it is a mass
>delusion, then 
>> it is unprecedented in history. If they all made it up, the stories show a 
>> remarkable consistancy. The only premise left is that it is a deliberate
>hoax. 
>> So who started this hoax? Who kept it going?
>
>You are again assuming facts not in evidence. I do not "deny" the
>"Holocaust." What I DO say is that the Holocaust story, as it is currently
>told, contains many errors and falsehoods.

    You are evading the question (as well as misusing the idiom "assuming
facts not in evidence").  I will reprase the question.  For the words "If
you assert the Holocaust did not happen," please substitute, "If you
assert that homicidal gassings did not happen."  (I trust you will agree
that you have asserted *that*!) The remainder of the question stays as is. 
Now please stop evading the question and answer it. How did so many
witnesses come to tell such consistent stories if the stories were 
false?  There were too many witnesses for this to have happened by chance 
alone.  Therefore there would have to have been a deliberate effort to 
communicate a false story and suborn people to tell it in place of their 
honest personal memories.  Please provide your evidence for this.


>> What did Hoess have to gain? 
>
>To give just two examples, he had to gain 1) the cessation of the torture
>to which he was subjected, and 2) the assurance that his family would not
>be sent to the Soviet Union.

    Please provide evidence that he was 1) tortured, and 2) threatened 
with his family being sent to the Soviet Union.


>> but was he [Hoess] tortured all the way through writing his autobiography?
>> If not, 
>> your assertation of torture is worthless.
>
>We do not know the precise conditions under which Hoess was kept. However,
>we do know that between the tortured testimony (which is the most often
>quoted) and the outright errors, Hoess' post-war utterances on this matter
>must be approached with the utmost care ... something that the
>exterminationists have failed to do until very recently, when, for
>example, Deborah Lipstadt and Christopher Browning effectively discarded
>Hoess as proof of the Holocaust extermination story.

    To the best of my knowledge this is false.  Lipstadt and Browning have
discarded Hoess as reliable evidence of the number of people killed at
Auschwitz.  They have not discarded Hoess as reliable evidence of the fact
that there were homicidal gassings.  If you have a source which says
otherwise, please cite it.  Give the name of the publication, date (if a
periodical), publisher and year (if a book), and page number.  If you
provide a quote, please quote the entire relevant paragraph(s) word for
word without trying to omit or reword anything.


>> No, no, no. You've got to prove they are lies. Just saying they are lies 
>> doesn't make them lies. And surely you mean *all*. Saying most are lies 
>> implies some are true. Doesn't help your case much if you admit that.
>
>You can prove it to yourself even without me. Read a so-called eyewitness
>account. If it conflicts with physical reality, then it contains a lie.

    This is not true.  It may contain an error.  A lie is a *deliberate*
statement contrary to fact.  An error is an *unintentional* statement
contrary to fact.  Suppose, for example, I say that I ate turkey with my
parents on the afternoon of Nov. 23rd.  However, it is patently clear that
I was nowhere near my parents at that time, but hard at work in my office. 
The obvious explanation for this conflict with physical reality is that I
was confused about the day of month on which Thanksgiving fell - I did eat
turkey with my parents, but on the 24th.  My misstatement is not a lie,
but an error.


>As for the overall veracity of these so-called witnesses, I think you will
>find that there are many parts of there stories that contain truthful
>statements. However, when you get to statements dealing with the so-called
>gas chambers, for which we have no physical evidence as to their
>existence,

    False.  Even Fred Leuchter found cyanide traces.  That is physical
evidence consistent with a claim of homicidal gassing.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


Article 19657 of alt.revisionism:
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From: k044477@kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust Story and Morality
Date: Thu, 01 Dec 1994 00:48:31 -0500
Organization: Msen, Inc. -- Ann Arbor, MI (account info: +1 313 998-4562)
Lines: 61
Message-ID: 
References: <3bdm5e$jq@transit.nyser.net>
   <1994Nov28.204946.34807@miavx1>
   
NNTP-Posting-Host: lpi.pnet.msen.com

codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) wrote:

> Raskolnikov (bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu) wrote:
> : The founder of the Institute
> : for Historical review, Willis Carto is quite a bigot himself.  
> 
> Says who.  His attorney Mark Lane is a Jew,

This means exactly nothing.  Alan Dershowitz, a Jew, has defended
neo-Nazis;  he'll be the first to tell you they're bigots.

> and one of his better known
> employees, Robert Brock is Black.

Oh, he's got a black man working for him, he can't be a bigot.
Is this the best you can do?

> And spare me any hoary quotes from the 
> Carto of 40 years ago.

Heh.  That pretty much says it all.  Just because he hasn't
publicly said anything bigoted recently doesn't mean he's changed;
it just means he's become more private.  Hell, the National Review
article from 1973 described him as the shadowy figure who controls
his organizations from behind the scenes.

Still, you wouldn't have to go back more than 20 years for the
nasty quotes.

Hey, I know.  David Duke has had at least one black person working
for him, and you'd have to go back a ways to find the times when
Duke said anything overtly racist.  Do you think David Duke is a
bigot, Ross?  Don't waffle, please:  yes or no, and you're welcome
to explain your reasoning.

> : The 'revisionists' are less interested in historical truth than
> : they are in their own self serving agenda.  They are dishonest,
> : pure and simple.
> 
> What "self serving agenda?"  Are they all masochists?  You people 
> apparently have no agenda except the fearless pursuit of The  Truth.
> Funny, how defensive you get when somebody says something negative
> about Israel.

This from Ross Vicksell, who has described his mission as "recruiting
new revisionists ... and indulging in occasional Israel bashing."
Details at:  http://www.kzoo.edu/~k044477/RUE3-CODOHGeneralInfo.html

If I've got an ulterior motive, Ross, please cite one instance when
I've gotten "defensive" regarding Israel.

If you're not dishonest, Ross, then defend your views about Himmler's
Poznan speeches.  You've confessed that you think one of the keys to
understanding them lies in the word "Ausrottung."  Please tell us
what you think that word means.

Or do you think it's not dishonest for someone who's an official with
the Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust to refuse to openly
debate any matters of substance?

Posted and emailed.


Article 19671 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Greg reply to Dave in Scotland
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References:    
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 1994 04:14:47 GMT
Lines: 45

Raskolnikov (bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu) wrote:
: In article , codfish@netcom.com
 (Ross Vicksell) writes:
: > Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com) wrote:
: > : In article , cendbj@clust.hw.ac.uk
: > : (David Johnston) wrote:
: > : > If you assert that the 
: > : > Holocaust did not happen, then those who come forward 
: > : > as eyewitnesses saying that it did, and that they saw part of it, 
must be 
: > : > lying. Therefore, 
: > : > either somebody told them what to say, they all made it up, 
: > : > or they are all suffering from a mass delusion. If it is a mass
: > : > delusion, then 
: > : > it is unprecedented in history. If they all made it up, 
the stories show a 
: > : > remarkable consistency. 
: > 
: > Not remarkable at all.  They merely copy each others stories.


: Including letters written between Nazis during the war?

: You know, the one's describing the gassing? How about 
: the ones written by Hans Frank, who complained that the order 
: (and the execution of that order) to exterminate the Jews had
: so seriously hampered his slave labor program?  

: I'll post an example if requested.

Go ahead.  Hear say there was a little forgery going on after the war. 

                 Ross Vicksell


: wow. Those Nazis must have been _telepathic_ to have copied
: the stories of people they'd never even met.

: I guess they were the "master race" after all.  (not)

: =======================================================================
: Brian Harmon         "We are most unfair to God: we do not allow
: Miami University	   	him to sin.." 
: Oxford, Ohio 45056  			-- Friedrich Nietzsche
: --------------bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu--------------------------


Article 19680 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!nntp.club.cc.cmu.edu!hudson.lm.com!news.pop.psu.edu!news.cac.psu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!codfish
From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: The Holocaust Story and Morality
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References: <3bdm5e$jq@transit.nyser.net> 
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 1994 05:29:50 GMT
Lines: 62

Jamie McCarthy (k044477@kzoo.edu) wrote:
: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) wrote:

: > Raskolnikov (bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu) wrote:
: > : The founder of the Institute
: > : for Historical review, Willis Carto is quite a bigot himself.  
: > 
: > Says who.  His attorney Mark Lane is a Jew,

: This means exactly nothing.  Alan Dershowitz, a Jew, has defended
: neo-Nazis;  he'll be the first to tell you they're bigots.

: > and one of his better known
: > employees, Robert Brock is Black.

: Oh, he's got a black man working for him, he can't be a bigot.
: Is this the best you can do?

: > And spare me any hoary quotes from the 
: > Carto of 40 years ago.

: Heh.  That pretty much says it all.  Just because he hasn't
: publicly said anything bigoted recently doesn't mean he's changed;
: it just means he's become more private.  Hell, the National Review
: article from 1973 described him as the shadowy figure who controls
: his organizations from behind the scenes.

: Still, you wouldn't have to go back more than 20 years for the
: nasty quotes.

: Hey, I know.  David Duke has had at least one black person working
: for him, and you'd have to go back a ways to find the times when
: Duke said anything overtly racist.  Do you think David Duke is a
: bigot, Ross?  Don't waffle, please:  yes or no, and you're welcome
: to explain your reasoning.

: > : The 'revisionists' are less interested in historical truth than
: > : they are in their own self serving agenda.  They are dishonest,
: > : pure and simple.
: > 
: > What "self serving agenda?"  Are they all masochists?  You people 
: > apparently have no agenda except the fearless pursuit of The  Truth.
: > Funny, how defensive you get when somebody says something negative
: > about Israel.

: This from Ross Vicksell, who has described his mission as "recruiting
: new revisionists ... and indulging in occasional Israel bashing."
: Details at:  http://www.kzoo.edu/~k044477/RUE3-CODOHGeneralInfo.html

: If I've got an ulterior motive, Ross, please cite one instance when
: I've gotten "defensive" regarding Israel.

: If you're not dishonest, Ross, then defend your views about Himmler's
: Poznan speeches.  You've confessed that you think one of the keys to
: understanding them lies in the word "Ausrottung."  Please tell us
: what you think that word means.

: Or do you think it's not dishonest for someone who's an official with
: the Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust to refuse to openly
: debate any matters of substance?

: Posted and emailed.


Article 19704 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Greg reply to Dave in Scotland
In-Reply-To: bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu's message of 2 Dec 94 23:57:48 -0500
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References:  
	<1994Dec2.235748.35095@miavx1>
Date: Sat, 3 Dec 1994 07:22:27 GMT
Lines: 32


codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) writes:
> : I'll post an example if requested.
> 
> Go ahead.  Hear say there was a little forgery going on after the war. 

FORGERIES ALL FORGERIES!

In fact WORLD WAR II NEVER HAPPENED ROSS!

Yeah, it was all a FORGERY!

Amazing! You can come out of your bunker now.

What's really laughable is to watch these deniers struggle to find
some sort of ambiguity or error in some document that just nails them
and then to just try to blow it all away with FORGERIES ALL FORGERIES!

Worse, Greg "Hitler Admirer" Raven makes blanket statements that no
document of the Holocaust, gassing, exists.

When asked what in the world he can possibly mean, here are a dozen!,
he responds: FORGERIES ALL FORGERIES!

Talk about electronic village idiots...


-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 19708 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!codfish
From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Freedom of Speech in Austria
Message-ID: 
Followup-To: soc.culture.german,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References:  
Date: Sat, 3 Dec 1994 04:48:57 GMT
Lines: 30

w. (wtu@e119ws1.tuwien.ac.at) wrote:
: In article  jennyb@dopey.uhcc.Hawaii.Edu (Jenny K Baker) writes:

: >                 FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS: WHITE POWER
: > 
: >>--crap deleted --<<
: > 
: > 
: > We must secure the existence of our people and a future for White children

: I want a future for all children, be they white,black,yellow and of any other 
: skin and therefore I detest posters like the above one!

: Moreover: In European countries, we have learned a bit from history: Pro-Nazi 
: agitation is simply a crime: It is not protected  by any form of "Freedom of 
: expression", since attempts to form  Nazi-followups are simply 
: considered to be criminal organisations: So - from our point of view - your 
: "organisations" are nothing better than streetgangs!

: I liked only one thing in your FAQ: There was no organisation in Austria: Are 
: they behind bars?

: So long
: w. 

Interesting how you Austrians persecute revisionists.  What's the matter 
- afraid of a little free speech?

             Ross Vicksell



Article 19710 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!nntp.club.cc.cmu.edu!hudson.lm.com!news.pop.psu.edu!news.cac.psu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu!miavx1!bpharmon
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: more on Irving
Message-ID: <1994Dec2.023053.35033@miavx1>
From: bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu (Raskolnikov)
Date: 2 Dec 94 02:30:53 -0500
References:  <3bkjak$6ua@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>   
 
Organization: Miami University
Lines: 21

In article , codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) writes:
> What's interesting here is that mone of our true believer friends address 
> Irving's principal contention - that not enough fuel was shipped to 
> Auschwitz to cremate the enormous number of bodies that were supposedly 
> cremated there, not by a long shot.  Did they cook the books?  How about 
> it boys?
> 

Well Ross, all we have is Irving _claiming_ that he knows how
much coke was shipped there.  Is that number in Pressac?
Unless I have a good idea where Irving got that number from, 
I'm not interested.

Anyone can say that the moon is made of green cheese, it's another
thing to have some evidence.

=======================================================================
Brian Harmon           "How much trouble could a couple of 
Miami University	  scientists get into anyway?"
Oxford, Ohio 45056  		-- Marc Singer, _Dead Space_
--------------bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu--------------------------


Article 19713 of alt.revisionism:
Xref: oneb alt.politics.nationalism.white:246 alt.revisionism:19713 alt.skinheads:11300
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!nic-nac.CSU.net!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!pipex!uunet!world!dmdeane
From: dmdeane@world.std.com (David M. Deane)
Subject: Re: Call for WWW pages
Message-ID: 
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
References: <3bk70s$av9@nyx10.cs.du.edu> 
Date: Sun, 4 Dec 1994 03:10:50 GMT
Lines: 99

Ross Vicksell (codfish@netcom.com) wrote:
: N.O. Monaghan (nmonagha@nyx10.cs.du.edu) wrote:

: : I am in the process of completing a WWW page which is intended to point
: : to resources on the net (i.e. other WWW pages, ftp, gopher sites)
: : covering the following subjects:

: : 	Nationalism
: : 	European New Right
: : 	Distributism

: : 	and related topics. This would include cultural as well as
: : 	political material.


: What's "Distributism?"

Well, if Mr. Monaghan doesn't mind, I'll take a stab at answering that.

(professorial voice on)

Distributism is the political theory/movement initiated by Hilaire Belloc
and G.K. Chesterton, which gained a following during the 1920's and 
1930's. It is historically related to Guild Socialism and Social Credit,
all of which developed out of debates occurring in _The New Age_ in the 
early 1900's in England. Southern Agrarianism also bears some resemblence 
to Distributism (don't ask me what Guild Socialism, Social Credit, and 
Southern Agrarianism are; life is too short as it is).

Essentially, Distributism states that the basis of a stable and well 
ordered society is the proper distribution of property. Since property is 
the basis for all other rights (which are meaningless if one is too poor 
and dependant to excerise them), it follows that an orderly and democratic 
society must do two things: 1) prevent the excessive concentration of too 
much property into too few hands, and 2) prevent the creation of large 
groups of propertyless citizens.

What distinguishes Distributism from Socialism and modern Liberalism is 
that Distributism rejects the notion of a centralized state power which 
will redistribute wealth in the name of "equality", because the result of 
such a policy is not the balanced distribution of wealth, but rather the 
creation of an all-powerful property owner - the state - upon which the 
propertyless masses will necessarilty be dependent on. The result of such 
a state - our "welfare state" - would thus be the creation of an ever 
larger servile class. Belloc forsaw this very early in his book, _The 
Servile State_ (1912).

Distributism was very accurate in its analysis of this problem, but a 
bit more vague in its proposed solutions. Since state redistribution was 
not the answer, other solutions were proposed. Since small property 
ownership was to be encouraged, ways needed to be found to encourage 
small shopkeepers and farmers, and to discourage giant chain stores, 
department stores, "factory farms", etc. The man who was his own master 
at work was more likely to possess the skills needed to make democracy 
and civilization work; whereas the wage slave would tend towards the 
creation of the conditions needed for the "servile state" (socialism, 
welfare state, etc). Various proposals were made: differential taxation, 
for example, could encourage small shops and discourage the giant 
department stores. Land laws could be taylored to protect those who 
worked on, and lived off, their own land, and to discourage speculators. 
The idea was to encourage people to find ways to earn their own living 
and own their own property, and to discourage large concentrations of 
wealth and power. That is, help people to help themselves and not simply 
"redistribute" the wealth.

I should also add that Distributism was bound up with Chesterbelloc's 
Catholicism, though of course many Distributists were not Catholic. 
Belloc had some rather cranky historical theories blaming all the bad 
things about modern Europe on the Protestants, whilst claiming that the 
Catholic Church was the true promoter of his Distributist ideal, but this 
is a sectarian sideshow; the meat of Distributism is as I have described 
it above. More recently, Distributism has been taken up by some white 
nationalists (mostly in Europe; American nationalists are, as a rule, not 
as interested in intellecual issues), including that current known 
variously as "Third Way" or "Third Position".

(professorial voice off)

I hope this brief (and very incomplete) description of Distributism has 
been of help. The poster did not ask about the European New Right (a very 
different animal), but if anyone is curious I would recommend the only 
book in English (so far) on the subject: "Against Democracy and Equality: 
The European New Right" (Lang, 1990) by Tomislav Sunic (the title is a 
little misleading, since the ENR is not against Democracy and Equality so 
much as it it against what currently goes by those names, but be that as 
it may - better half and loaf than none, etc). Also, check out the latest 
issue of _Telos_, a special double issue on the European New Right. If you 
want more detailed info on these and other subjects, scoot over to 
alt.revolution.counter and ask Mr. Kalb to post the a.r.c resource list, 
a treasure trove of various right-wing and "counter-revolutionary" books, 
magazines, and organizations: Distributist, ENR, Conservative, Populist,
Nationalist/Separatist, Protestant, Catholic, Monarchist, Integrist, etc.
The only thing missing is a right-wing pagan/occultist/etc list, and 
perhaps a right-wing musical/literary/artistic list.
-- 
Regards,
                                      Who would remember Helen's face
David Matthew Deane                   Lacking the terrible halo of spears? 
dmdeane@world.std.com                 (Robinson Jeffers)


Article 19722 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!sunserver.insinc.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!cat.cis.Brown.EDU!dzk
From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Reply to Jamie McArthur
Date: 4 Dec 1994 13:00:49 GMT
Organization: Brown University
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <3bsei1$jo7@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu

Ross Vicksell  wrote:
# Jamie McCarthy writes:

## If you're not dishonest, Ross, then defend your views about Himmler's
## Poznan speeches.  You've confessed that you think one of the keys to
## understanding them lies in the word "Ausrottung."  Please tell us
## what you think that word means.

# uprooting

But this is stupid, since Himmler goes on to say that the Jewish
women and children have also to be killed, and that the "hard
decision had to be taken, to make this people disappear from the
earth". 

I understand senility is taking its toll, but can Vicksell
nontheless understand that this proves, beyond doubt, that 
Himmler was talking about extermination, which is also the meaning
of the word in German?


-Danny Keren.


Article 19734 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!gatech!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!panix!zip.eecs.umich.edu!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!news.itd.umich.edu!pm005-02.dialip.mich.net!user
From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Reply to Jamie McArthur
Date: Sat, 03 Dec 1994 14:40:01 -0500
Organization: University of Michigan
Lines: 96
Message-ID: 
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm005-02.dialip.mich.net

Ross, please spell my name right in future.

[Mark Lane, a Jew, is Willis Carto's lawyer.]

Jamie wrote:

> : This means exactly nothing.  Alan Dershowitz, a Jew, has defended 
> : neo-Nazis;  he'll be the first to tell you they're bigots. 

codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) wrote:

> "... On more than one occasion we [Lane and Carto] have spent the evening
> sipping Blanton's, a fine Kentucky bourbon, exploring the vagaries of
> world politics and exchanging world views.  I have never heard an
> anti-Semitic expression from him in all these years. ... "
> 
>            Mark Lane, from "Plausible Denial" p. 124

Mm-hm.

> But I'm glad you brought up Buckley.  Lane has some things to say about 
> him, too. 
> 
> "... it was revealed that Buckley had been opposed to the rights of
> African-Americans to vote in the United States because they outnumbered
> white voters in certain areas and because, as he put it, the white voters 
> were the superior or master race."
> 
>              op. cit. page 124

So let me get this straight.

This Mark Lane guy has some inside information that William F. Buckley
is a closet racist.  This is something that no one else knows.  His
intellectual opponents and friends have, throughout the years, been
unable to uncover one trace of this.

In fact, Buckley has stood in firm opposition to racism on many
occasions.  And I'm not saying this because I'm a follower of his --
I'm a confirmed liberal.  Buckley's stand against racism is strong
and laudable.  Heck, when Pat Buchanan made some questionable
statements about Jews and Israel during Desert Shield, Buckley was
one of the first to chastise him.

Yet this Mark Lane guy, alone among the billions of people in the
world, somehow knows that Buckley is a white supremacist.

And he also knows that Willis Carto, despite years of racism and
anti-Semitic pamphleteering, despite founding and running
organization after organization to publish anti-Jewish, anti-black
material, is _not_ a white supremacist.

Gotcha.

> : If you're not dishonest, Ross, then defend your views about Himmler's
> : Poznan speeches.  You've confessed that you think one of the keys to
> : understanding them lies in the word "Ausrottung."  Please tell us
> : what you think that word means.
> 
> uprooting

I'm about to post, again, a list of citations from German dictionaries.
Most of them say explicitly that ausrotten means extermination when
applied to people and animals.  Some say specifically that "uprooting"
is a translation to be reserved for the cases in which the subjects are
roots and plants _only_.

None of the translations say that "uprooting" is an acceptable
translation when speaking about people.

Comment, Ross?

Or are you simply going to utter that one single word, "uprooting," and
then refuse to go on?

> : Or do you think it's not dishonest for someone who's an official with
> : the Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust to refuse to openly
> : debate any matters of substance?
> 
> When did you stop beating your wife?

Non sequitur.

You belong to an organization that encourages "open debate on the
Holocaust" in its title.  Presumably you'd want to openly debate the
Holocaust.  Not too much of a logical leap.

Now, if the organization were named "Committee for Open Debate on
Trivial Details Only Barely Having Anything to do with the Holocaust,"
or "Committee for Gratuitous Israel-Bashing," then I'd say you would
be a fine, upstanding, honest member.

But it's not.
-- 
 Jamie McCarthy   Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu   AppleLink: j.mccarthy
 "What is wrong with admiring Adolf Hitler?"  - Jack Wikoff


Article 19738 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!uunet!world!bzs
From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Lurker comment
In-Reply-To: codfish@netcom.com's message of Tue, 6 Dec 1994 07:10:35 GMT
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References: <4DEC199407171186@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu> <3bsq7s$sqb@erinews.ericsson.se>
	 
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 1994 06:30:31 GMT
Lines: 61


From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) [responding to me]
>: Hey, Vicksell, your worst complaint is that your denier buddies are :
>getting their day in court. Is that what you mean by "every : conceivable
>way" down below? ( I said: All over Europe revisionists are being
>persecuted in every conceivable way with the full complicity of the powers
>that be ...)
>
>Nope.  I mean beatings by "anti-Fascist" gangs, vilification by the 
>media, destruction of careers, forced emigration, unjust fines, arbitrary 
>imprisonment, etc.  Things like that.

You compare that to the murder and havoc the Nazis laid bare when they
had their day in the sun?

Vilification by the media...ooooh, tough life.

Careers of deniers are often "destroyed" not by some malicious act but
simply because they convince others that they're a bit nuts and
probably destructive and hateful and not entirely in touch with
reality.

It really depends on the "career". I doubt any denier's career
flipping burgers was destroyed. But those whose careers rested upon
peer review and credibility often get the big raspberry.

But that's more like saying getting an "F" in math destroyed ones'
career in mathematics. Sometimes it's just deserved.

Most denier history is pure crap, much of it is fabricated or twisted
out of context. And it doesn't take a deep reading of someone like
Greg Raven to conclude that it's willfully done, a hypothesis driving
method and investigation which is exactly what you are never supposed
to do (you're free to do it, but don't expect a "career" from others
for pushing out that sort of tripe.)

It's hucksterism. People don't like to give salaries to hucksters. And
they tend to give them a hard time, even when unfair. I'm not
justifying it, but hey, kitchens and heat and all that.

But this ain't nuttin' compared to how the Nazis dealt with "justice".
They just saw the entire concept as a bar to expedience and trampled
over anyone they felt like, usually with deadly consequences.

I'm as close to a free speech absolutist as you'll likely meet on the
outside. But I also understand that speech is powerful and can have
consequences. Again, even if those consequences aren't fair it is a
fool who acts on contrary beliefs.

And as I've told you before, as a "free speech" issue this holocaust
denial thing has to be one of the stupidest to arise. You may as well
just go down to your favorite ethnic neighborhood and shout
appropriate racist epithets and then complain that they denied your
"free speech" rights. Well, perhaps in the abstract, but you really
proved nothing other than that "fighting words" do exist.

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 19744 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Lurker comment
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References: <4DEC199407171186@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu> <3bsq7s$sqb@erinews.ericsson.se> 
Date: Tue, 6 Dec 1994 07:10:35 GMT
Lines: 14

Barry Shein (bzs@world.std.com) wrote:

: Hey, Vicksell, your worst complaint is that your denier buddies are :
getting their day in court. Is that what you mean by "every : conceivable
way" down below? ( I said: All over Europe revisionists are being
persecuted in every conceivable way with the full complicity of the powers
that be ...)

Nope.  I mean beatings by "anti-Fascist" gangs, vilification by the 
media, destruction of careers, forced emigration, unjust fines, arbitrary 
imprisonment, etc.  Things like that.

            Ross Vicksell 



Article 19753 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Lurker comment
In-Reply-To: codfish@netcom.com's message of Mon, 5 Dec 1994 02:57:56 GMT
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References: <4DEC199407171186@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu> <3bsq7s$sqb@erinews.ericsson.se>
	
Date: Tue, 6 Dec 1994 00:06:18 GMT
Lines: 65


Hey, Vicksell, your worst complaint is that your denier buddies are
getting their day in court. Is that what you mean by "every
conceivable way" down below?

That's a lot better than your Nazi heros ever offered those they
disagreed with. "Every conceivable way" my foot! Maybe a couple of
years in a concentration camp (if you could last that long, few did),
without any hope of trial, would broaden your conceptions!

Even your denier's neo-nazi fans haven't the slightest interest in
courts and the law. They prefer to burn people they disagree with, and
their children, while they are asleep in their beds.

Isn't it amusing and pathetic how often these deniers seem to claim
that process of law (eg, the Mermelstein trial, Leuchter, Demanjuk) is
comparable somehow to the violent, murderous thugs they love to
defend?!

Talk about confused. Do they have any conception of what went on,
forgetting the holocaust specifics for the moment, in Nazi Germany?
Can they possibly be that dense about what a smug totalitarian state
means?

I'd take my chances with democratically based courtrooms, even when I
feel they're being unfair, over lawless nazi criminals any day! At
least one might live long enough to be vindicated. Better than being
declared "an excess mouth to feed" in the basement of some gestapo
office and disposed of forthwith! Or, in more modern practice, the
neo-nazi's favorite: "Fair" trial by anonymous letter bomb.

It's astounding how these guys can defend some of the worst violators
of anything resembling justice in the history of the world as a means
to demand justice! Howsabout some Nazi "justice" for you and your
buddies, would that make you happier? I'd bet not. You yourself would
be declared an excess mouth in a split-second, and you know it (or
ought to)!


>:    Here in Europe people are targetted by neo-nazi groups for supporting
>:   anti-fascist causes, you may consider yourself safe in Arizona, but
>:   not everyone can rest easy.
>:    A couple of years ago I joined an anti-fascist group and put my name
>:   to many petitions, soon after I found stickers had been put on the 
>:   gates to my house saying "Beware - we are watching you" it was signed
>
>:   off in the name of a neo-Nazi group. This won't stop me from protesting
>:   against fascism, but it does make you think twice before giving your
>:   name or address for any political purpose.
>
>: - U.P   
>
>This is so ludicrous it's almost sad.  All over Europe revisionists are
>being persecuted in every conceivable way with the full complicity of the
>powers that be and this guy thinks it's a big deal when somebody sticks a
>sticker on his gate.  We should have it so good.  Dittlieb Felderer was
>incarcerated for several months by the Swedish goverment just for
>circulating revisionist literature. 
>
>              Ross Vicksell
-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 19757 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!sunserver.insinc.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news2.near.net!cat.cis.Brown.EDU!dzk
From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: David Cole
Date: 6 Dec 1994 14:58:12 GMT
Organization: Brown University
Lines: 79
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References:  <3brv93$dpo@newsbf01.news.aol.com>  
NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu

Ross Vicksell  wrote:

# The museum has officially changed its tour guide spiel so now tourists 
# are told IMMEDIATELY that Krema I IS NOT in its original state, that it 
# was changed after liberation, 

Nothing new here. This information appears in Pressac's book, and
is well-known. 

If David Cole had enough brains to graduate from highschool, a feat
which he failed to accomplish, maybe he'd understand this.

(Boy, someone must be really smart, to drop out from a highschool
in the US of A. What a bright little "revisionist scholar" David
Cole is!).

Of course, the fact that there are still cyanide traces on the walls
of the gas chamber - as even the Holocaust deniers admit - proves
that cyanide gas was indeed used in this chamber during WW2. This
is the very same chamber in which people were gassed. Since Zyklon
was used in it, it's obvious that there existed means of inserting
the Zyklon into the chamber. This is what counts.

# It gets better.  Jean Claude Pressac is in conflict with the museum over
# the post-liberation remodeling job.  He says there were THREE "Zyklon B
# induction holes" in the roof, and they ran in a straight line.  The Museum
# says there were FOUR holes, in rows of two (as is presently in the roof of
# Krema I). 
 
# Who's right?  Let's hear YOUR opinions.  Make your vote count.

If you feel this is so important, why don't you ask Hans Stark? He 
was relatively young when stationed in Auschwitz, and may still be alive.

From the statement of Hans Stark, registrar of new arrivals, Auschwitz:
[Quoted in "'The Good Old Days'" - E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The 
Free Press, NY, 1988, p. 255].
--------------------------------------------------------------
At another, later gassing -- also in autumn 1941 -- Grabner ordered
me to pour Zyklon B into the opening because only one medical orderly
had shown up. During a gassing Zyklon B had to be poured through both
openings of the gas-chamber room at the same time. This gassing was
also a transport of 200-250 Jews, once again men, women and children.
As the Zyklon B -- as already mentioned -- was in granular form, it
trickled down over the people as it was being poured in. They then
started to cry out terribly for they now knew what was happening to
them. I did not look through the opening because it had to be closed
as soon as the Zyklon B had been poured in. After a few minutes there
was silence. After some time had passed, it may have been ten to
fifteen minutes, the gas chamber was opened. The dead lay
higgledy-piggedly all over the place. It was a dreadful sight.



Or Perry Broad?

Testimony of SS-Unterscharfuehrer Perry Broad, describing gassing in
Krema I in Auschwitz
[Quoted in "KL Auschwitz as Seen by the SS", p. 176]
-------------------------------------------------------------
 ... The "disinfectors" were at work. One of them was SS-Unterscharfuehrer
Teuer, decorated with the Cross of War Merit. With a chisel and a
hammer they opened a few innocuously looking tins which bore the
inscription "Cyclon, to be used against vermin. Attention, poison!
to be opened by trained personnel only!". The tins were filled to
the brim with blue granules the size of peas. Immediately after
opening the tins, their contents was thrown into the holes which
were then quickly covered. Meanwhile Grabner gave a sign to the driver
of a lorry, which had stopped close to the crematorium. The driver
started the motor and its deafening noise was louder than the
death cries of the hundreds of people inside, being gassed to death.
 


So, why don't you ask them? 


-Danny Keren.



Article 19760 of alt.revisionism:
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From: martev 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: David Cole
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 1994 10:28:04 -0500 (EST)
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In-Reply-To:  



On Wed, 7 Dec 1994, Ross Vicksell wrote:

> I'm afraid y'all may have missed the points David was trying to make.

We missed nothing, it is so obvious what a liar he and his cohorts are, 
that it borders on comedy... like, 'who's on first'? Give up, it's been 
done so long that it has lost its humor...
> 
> Firstly, the tour guides changed theit speil AFTER David had his little 
> tete a tete with Piper. I know, coincidence.

That's bullshit as you well know.. NOTHING changed, except your 
wishing.

Tete a tete????  Or do you mean yellow journalism.. Faking an interview, 
and LYING to get it. Once a liar, always-------

Does Cole deny he lied to get the interview... Ask him how it was 
arranged, and for what purposes???

> Secondly they can't settle on how many induction holes were in the roof 
> of Krema I; it's the three-holes versus the four-holers.

Yup, they know, and have nothing to settle. You guys ought to get 
settled, if it were possible that is.. I think you need another meeting 
of the Missing Marbles Committee...

> Let me venture an hypothesis as to way this is so.  Maybe there are TWO sets 
> of blueprints for this particular "gas chamber" - one with three holes 
> and one with four holes.  This was perhaps the result of having two teams 
> of design engineers work on the problem of achieving the maximum 
> throughput, your typical Teutonic obsession with efficiency. Who won out?
> I'm sort of guessing it was the three-holers, because I've seen some air 
> photos that look definitely three-holish.

Strange, You say maybe two, YOU venture this, You hypothesize that, You 
perhaps think, (?),  You are guessing, You've seen some, yeesshhh, have 
You anything definitive, positive, intelligent,  or accurate, or do you 
live in never never land..Alice???



Article 19762 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!kmcvay
From: kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay)
Subject: Re: Lurker comment
References: <3bsq7s$sqb@erinews.ericsson.se>  
Organization: The Old Frog's Almanac
Message-ID: <1994Dec09.125855.23781@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
Date: Fri, 09 Dec 94 12:58:55 GMT

In article  codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) writes:

>Nope.  I mean beatings by "anti-Fascist" gangs, vilification by the 
>media, destruction of careers, forced emigration, unjust fines, arbitrary 
>imprisonment, etc.  Things like that.

So when Gerhardt Lauke  says, during a CBS special (Hitler and
Stalin: Legacy of Hate), that a "National Socialist government"
would exterminate non-whites, you feel he should be treated with
deference and respect?

-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"You misunderstand the mission of CODOH.   We're  in  the  business of 
promoting open debate, not necessarily engaging in it."(Ross Vicksell)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Article 19764 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!cat.cis.Brown.EDU!dzk
From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "99% were happy as clams"
Date: 6 Dec 1994 21:48:18 GMT
Organization: Brown University
Lines: 21
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <3c2m72$mo2@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
References: <1994Nov28.204946.34807@miavx1>  <3c0c0f$p3c@riscsm.scripps.edu> <6DEC199406541417@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu

Daniel Mittleman  wrote:

# Ross will be hard pressed to defend his 99% figure as he has to 
# account for: Catholics, trade unionists, Communists, other 
# leftists, physically and mentally handicapped, Bauhaus artisans, 
# homosexuals, gypsies, SA members, and intellectuals, as well as Jews.

Well, Vicksell probably only counts those he considers to be
human beings.

It's interesting to see that old-boy Vicksell, who started
out as the most moderate Nazi here, gradually starts to sound
just like the rest of the Nazi bunch, saying what a great
guy Adolf Shitler was, etc.

Holocaust deniers: a set with a very low average and a very
small variance.


-Danny Keren.



Article 19765 of alt.revisionism:
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From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Reply to Jamie McArthur
Date: Tue, 06 Dec 1994 16:32:29 -0500
Organization: University of Michigan
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References: 
   
   
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm005-00.dialip.mich.net

Two days ago, codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) wrote:

> You guys just won't give up on vilifying Carto, will you?  Please put your
> citations where your mouths are; let's see some quotes, preferably from
> recent issues of the Spotlight, that shows what a bigot he is. 

One day ago, Mr. Vicksell repeated:

> Well boys, I'm still waiting for that proof that Willis Carto is a bigot.

Hold your horses, Ross.  There are only so many hours in the day.

I point out that I'm bringing up these detailed ad hominem attacks only
because I was asked to.  I'm always eager to discuss issues, but
sometimes it helps to know what ideology your opponents have.

And it's clear that Carto is quite a bigot.  Mark Weber, who is an
admitted white supremacist, said of Carto's split with the IHR, "Our
main problem was editorial direction.  [Carto] wanted to make
substantive changes in the direction of the review. He wanted to become
more 'racialist,' to make it more clearly white racist."  In a letter,
Weber wrote that "The focus of [Carto's] new journal would be race and
multiculturalism.  In one written memo, Carto called for an article to
appear 'proving' the partial African ancestry of President (Dwight)
Eisenhower."

That and all the following information comes from Ken's archives.
Instructions for retrieving it are at the end of this article.

Carto always had his eye on Jewry. From a letter to one Norris Holt:

   There are 600 million Chinese and about 200 million Russians.
   All united in a determinmation to destroy the West.  And we have
   been so misled that we live in a dream world - far away from
   reality.  Hitler's defeat was the defeat of Europe.  And
   America.  How could we have been so blind?  The blame, it seems,
   must be laid at the door of the international Jews.  It was
   their propaganda, lies and demands which blinded the West to
   what Germany was doing.

Carto put it all more succinctly in a memo to himself:

   Who is using who?  Who is calling the shots?  History supplies
   the answer to this.  History tells us plainly who our Enemy is.
   our Enemy today is the same Enemy of 50 years ago and before -
   and that was before Communism.  The Communists are 'using' the
   Jews we are told.  ...who was 'using' the Jews fifty years ago -
   one hundred or one thousand years ago.  History supplies the
   answer.  The Jews came first and remain.  Public Enemy No.  1.

And:

   In fact, no objective Scholar can deny today that the world would be
   a far better place to live if Germany had won - even if it had
   meant the defeat of American arms! Let us first understand who won
   and who lost the last war.  The victors were Soviet Russia,
   international Communism, Red China, Israel, international Zionism,
   the international money manipulators (Wall Street-CFR crowd) and
   rising colored nationalisms the world over. Let us now name the
   losers:  All of the European nations, most certainly including
   Britain and her now non-existent Empire, the United States, White
   world-hegemony and the idea of the war-preventing, world-saving
   philosophy of nationalism and non-interference in the affairs of
   others.
   
   (Hitler and Chamberlain, incidentally, and contrary to the massive
   lies told about "Munich," worked out a sensible and workable
   agreement at Munich to save Europe from a war.  In return for a
   free hand in the east, Hitler guaranteed Chamberlain that Germany
   would not contest Britain's dominance on the seas, or covet any of
   her colonies.  The deal was broken by the war-madness stirred up by
   the British press in obedience to the financial power after Hitler
   marched on Poland - and also by pressure from Roosevelt.)
   
   Israel and Zionism would be unknown - still a crazy dream in the
   minds of a few fanatics - and the secret international power of the
   Zionist conspiracy would not be in existence nor the manifold
   culture distortions which flow from this disease source into all of
   the western nations.
   
   Juvenile delinquency would be uncommon because the youth of America
   would be filled with patriotism, the natural aftermath of defeat in
   war, and there would be something to aspire to.  Desegregation and
   the cultural negrification of America would be unknown.
   
   What would have been the effect of a German victory inside Germany?
    It is important to remember that Hitler's ambition stopped in
   Europe - he would have gone no further.  He would have stopped if
   for no other reason that he yearned to build Germany into an
   architectural paradise.  The result of German victory would have
   brought a true internationalism of Europe!  The United Europe only
   dreamed of today would have been a certain result of the war.
   
   The important thing to note is that a German victory would have
   assured that the life-span of the White world would have been
   extended for many centuries more than now seems likely; indeed, for
   the "thousand years" promised by Hitler.
                                        --- from American Mercury, Summer 1973

By the way, the author of this last article is "E. L. Anderson, Ph.D.",
which is an alias for Carto.

   'E.L.  Anderson, Ph.D.' declares: 'The Communist-devised
   system of `integration` in an army will ruin it.  Nationalists have
   known this for years, and most of them protested when Anna
   Rosenberg, the Communist Assistant Secretary of Defense, under
   Truman, forcibly integrated Negro and White units, during the
   Korean War.'

The elusive Willis Carto is the driving force behind many racist
organizations and publications. In the past, he wrote "The defeat
of Hitler was the defeat of America and Europe". In addition to
sponsoring the particularly repulsive form of antisemitism known
as "Holocaust revisionism", the publishing house he founded (Noontide
press) distributes the following:

"The Biology of the Race Problem"
"Our Nordic race"
"The Testing of Negro Intelligence"
"The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion"

And many other books, including two hailing Hitler and Goering as
"the great national socialist leader" and "an active champion of
western society in the fight against bolshevism".

   As Acord tells it, he and McMahon were
   invited to a party in Carto's honor, to be held after the NYA
   session at the Conley Motel in nearby Monroeville.  The party was
   thrown by something called the 'Francis Parker Yockey Movement.'
   The host was Louis T.  Byers, a leader of the Wallace campaign in
   Western Pennsylvania.  At a cocktail party attended by Carto and
   Col. Dall, guests allegedly wore Nazi insignia and the hi-fi
   blasted Nazi war songs.  After a buffet supper, a formal meeting
   was held.  It began, according to Acord, with the singing of the
   'Host Wessel Lied.'  Speeches on 'Plato the Fascist' and 'Negrified
   and Judaized America' followed.  Byers gave a rundown on recent
   books of interest, paying special attention to a forthcoming
   Noontide Press book, 'The Myth of the Six Million.'  Then Carto
   took the rostrum:

      Next to Jews, the most despised of all are the leaders of the
      legitimate Right like such as Bill Buckley Jr., John Ashbrook,
      Fulton Lewis III, ad infinitum [sic].  They, said Carto, are the
      real enemies of the Yockeyites.  They are the principal
      obstacles to be overcome.

   In an affidavit of his own, McMahon confirms the essence of Acord's
   story, and says that afdter the meeting the group adjourned in
   small groups to a room where Robert Johnson, operator of the Sabre
   and Sword Curio Shop in Buffalo, N.Y., had for sale swastika
   banners, recordings of German war songs, genuine and fake Nazi war
   relics, and even (for $150) an SS uniform.

   Clearly, the Acord-McMahon story of the events of January 25 is the
   work of men who feel considerable bitterness over their ouster from
   NYA.  But it is significant that the story falls into two parts,
   lurid stories of Nazi talk and Nazi trappings, and an account -
   calmer in comparison - of Carto's speech.  It is significant, too,
   that the speech as paraphrased by Acord is exactly in line with the
   power-oriented political philosophy that Carto has expounded,
   publicly, for years (cf.  his Introduction to _Imperium_).

Carto expressed his views on racial purity more frankly in private
correspondence.  In 1960 he wrote to Frank Hanigan, the founder of
'Human Events,' objecting to the paper's publication of articles by
Phillippa Schuyler, the journalist and concert pianist (and
daughter of George Schuyler, with Carto an occasional contributor
to 'American Opinion'), whom he described as 'the hybrid offspring
of George Schuyler and his White wife...[who] eschew the Supreme
Court as the 'solution' for segregation...  [and are] avid
crusaders and practitioners of a far speedier road towards racial
mongrelization - the road leading through the boudoir.'

The danger of 'racial mongrelization' was not a new preoccupation
for Carto.  All through the years with Liberty and Property, he
corresponded tirelessly with segregationist leaders.  In 1956, in a
letter to Judge Tom P.  Brady of the Mississippi Supreme Court, an
originator of the White Citizens' Council, Carto proclaimed (in
capitals): 'THE ISSUE IS NOT IDEOLOGICAL, THE ISSUE IS
ETHNOLOGICAL.'

'The revolutionists have seen to it,' Carto wrote the racist author
Earnest Sevier Cox in 1955, 'that only a few Americans are
concerned about the inevitable niggerfication of America.' But
Carto had a plan, for a 'flank attack.' He established, and
promoted secretly, the Joint Council for Repatriation - a
send-'em-back-to-Africa movement with an added benefit: '...  such
a movement would be the strongest blow against the power of
organized Jewry that can be imagined.'

   This American edition of 'Imperium' includes a 35-page Introduction
   by Carto, who has said a number of times that he stands by what he
   wrote there in 1962.
   
   Carto makes it clear that he goes along with Yockey, but not all the
   way.  He buys the Yockey line on the Jews, and peppers his
   Introduction with dark references to the 'aliens,' the 'inner
   enemy,' the 'Culture-Distorter.' He calls Yockey's European
   Liberation Front, whose 'Proclamation of london' urged the
   expulsion of jews and the establishement of national socialism 'a
   constructive movement.'
   
   But he parts company with Yockey on the question of race.  For
   Yockey, race is a matter of soul, not color, physical features or
   cephalic index.  For Carto, 'the genetic interpretation of race is
   a necessary, useful and valid one if we are to see all of our
   problems clearly and accurately.'


To get my sources for the above sent to you in email, send email to
listserv@oneb.almanac.bc.ca with the text:

get fascism liberty.lobby
get ihr carto.001
get ihr carto.002
get ihr carto.003
get ihr carto.004
get ihr carto.005
-- 
 Jamie McCarthy   Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu   AppleLink: j.mccarthy
 "What is wrong with admiring Adolf Hitler?"  - Jack Wikoff


Article 19766 of alt.revisionism:
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From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "99% were happy as clams"
Date: Tue, 06 Dec 1994 10:07:24 -0500
Organization: University of Michigan
Lines: 14
Message-ID: 
References: <1994Nov28.204946.34807@miavx1>
   <1994Nov30.204455.34958@miavx1>
   
   <3c0c0f$p3c@riscsm.scripps.edu>
   
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm005-04.dialip.mich.net

codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) wrote:

> All I'm trying to say is that the vast majority of Germans were happy 
> under Hitler.

And your reason for coming to this conclusion is...?

> The 99% is a symbolic figure, something like the six million.

Ross, anytime you want to start arguing facts and issues, instead of
throwing out rhetoric, you know where to find me.
-- 
 Jamie McCarthy   Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu   AppleLink: j.mccarthy
 "What is wrong with admiring Adolf Hitler?"  - Jack Wikoff


Article 19770 of alt.revisionism:
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From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: David Cole
Date: Tue, 06 Dec 1994 10:22:28 -0500
Organization: University of Michigan
Lines: 30
Message-ID: 
References: 
   <3brv93$dpo@newsbf01.news.aol.com>
   
   
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm005-04.dialip.mich.net

codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) wrote:

> David Cole has passed on a couple of tidbits about the Auschwitz State
> Museum and the latest party line.  I offer them for your amusement and
> edification. 

What is the point of this?

Are we supposed to think that, because the tourist guides have made
corrections to their canned talks about the gas chamber, that therefore
the Nazis never had a plan to kill Jews?

Please explain the link to me;  I don't get it.


You know, astronomers are all abuzz because many think that the
universe is not 17 billion years old as has been thought for some time,
but only about 12 billion.  Freshman astronomy courses have taught the
former figure for many years, but they're probably revising those
class curricula even as we speak.  And this is not a minor point,
either;  this may have serious repercussions to much of what is known
about astronomy and physics, over the next decade.

So should we conclude from this discrepancy that therefore the universe
was never created at all, and that the whole thing is a hoax?

Bah.
-- 
 Jamie McCarthy   Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu   AppleLink: j.mccarthy
 "What is wrong with admiring Adolf Hitler?"  - Jack Wikoff


Article 19773 of alt.revisionism:
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From: chip@cybernetics.net (Chip Salzenberg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Things are seldom what they seem
Date: 7 Dec 1994 17:00:59 GMT
Organization: Creative Cybernetics, Inc.
Lines: 102
Message-ID: <3c4pob$ok8@jabba.cybernetics.net>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: server0.cybernetics.net
Keywords: Jehovah's Witnesses

According to codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell):
>I just received an email message expressing doubts about Ditlieb
>Felderer's conclusions on how the Jehovah's Witnesses fared in the camps.

No, Ross.  You received E-Mail (from me) expressing sorrow at your
lack of understanding of what "freedom" means, and expressing doubts
about the way you characterized Felderer's work as "commissioned" by
the Watchtower Society.

Here is the message I wrote to Ross -- but to avoid copyright trouble,
I have [[paraphrased]] quotations from Ross's E-Mail:

=========================================================================
= From: chip (Chip Salzenberg)
= Message-Id: <9412061414.AA05764@Cybernetics.NET>
= Subject: Re: The Holocaust Story and Morality
= To: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
= Date: Tue, 6 Dec 1994 09:14:19 -0500 (EST)
= 
= Ross writes:
= > Chip writes:
= > > According to codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell):
= > > > BTW, I hate to see the Jehovah Witnesses relegated to the etc. etc.
= > > > category.
= >
= > [[ Ross says he was kidding ]]
= 
= I hope not!
= 
= > [[ Nazis treated Witnesses like Jews and Gypsies ]]
= 
= Yes, I know.  And that's my point.  When you wrote:
= 
= > Hitler Germany was rather freer than you may think.
= 
= in the context in which you wrote it, you insulted the memory of all
= those who suffered, including the Witnesses whose plight you brought
= up.  What good is any so-called "freedom" (whatever you meant by that
= term!) when holding the wrong religious beliefs were a one-way ticket
= to a concentration camp -- or a morgue?
= 
= > [[ Ross claims that the Watchtower Society commissioned Dittlieb
= > Felderer, "a Jew," to research Witness experience in Nazi camps.
= > His conclusions were that "a fraction" of the previously accepted
= > figure had actually died. ]]
= 
= You'd better be VERY, VERY SURE of this point before you repeat it.
= 
= First: I'm a long-time Witness, and based on my experience, it is not
= at all the Society's style to commission a non-Witness to write
= Witness history.  After all, JWs include talented people in all
= fields, any of whom would be more than happy to volunteer their time
= for such a project; and the Society's money is more than spoken for --
= mostly with printing, missionary work, and construction projects.
= 
= Second: I STRONGLY doubt that the Society would have dealings with a
= denier like Felderer for any purpose, especially historical research.
= 
= Please do not repeat the Felderer story unless/until you have written
= proof of the Society having any dealings with him.  And if/when you
= get such proof, please let me know; I'd like to see it.
=========================================================================

Ross, you both misrepresented my message and completely ignored its
main point: the (im)morality of calling Nazi Germany "freer than you
may think."  I am not surprised, but I am disappointed.

	      * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

On to Felderer.  Ross writes:

>It is important to note that when Felderer undertook his investigation he 
>was a practicing Jehovah's Witness; he had not yet dabbled in Holocaust 
>Revisionism.  After he had submitted his findings to the JW officials he 
>was kicked out of the organization.

Where did you get this story?

>What follows is an except from Barbara Kulaszka's summary of Felderer's
>testimony at the second Zuendel Trial.

Who is Barbara Kulaszka?  Where did you get this summary?

Now Ross continues with fourth-hand info.  Vicksell says that Kulaszka
says that a transcript records that Felderer said:

>In the beginning, the Jehovah's Witnesses claimed that 60,000 of their 
>members were killed in the Nazi concentration camps.   [...]
>In a subsequent Yearbook published by the Jehovah's Witnesses, however,
>they conceded that only 203 people were killed during the war.

Before I comment, I'd like to see specific references to the
Watchtower publications that made each of those claims.

	      * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

In any case, if (and I repeat, *if*) the Watchtower Society guessed
wrong on its initial figures for Witnesses killed by Nazis, that fact
might be interesting to Witnesses, but it is of zero relevance to the
Nazi Holocaust against the Jews.
-- 
Chip Salzenberg //  or 


Article 19783 of alt.revisionism:
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From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: more on Irving
Date: Fri, 02 Dec 1994 10:21:07 -0500
Organization: University of Michigan
Lines: 31
Message-ID: 
References: 
   <3bkjak$6ua@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
   
   
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm005-00.dialip.mich.net

codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) wrote:

> What's interesting here is that mone of our true believer friends address 
> Irving's principal contention - that not enough fuel was shipped to 
> Auschwitz to cremate the enormous number of bodies that were supposedly 
> cremated there, not by a long shot.  Did they cook the books?  How about 
> it boys?

(1)  Irving has deliberately lied to make his points, and I can prove it.
Therefore, I no longer believe anything he says until and unless I see it
backed up.

(2)  60 kg of coke to burn a corpse that probably weighs less than that?
Possible, but I doubt it.

(3)  How does Irving know he has the complete list of coke shipped to the
camp?  For every shipment that he doesn't have listed, his estimate is
that far off.

(4)  It's well-documented that the Nazis studied how best to burn bodies;
they found that body fat serves as fuel, and made the best use possible
of that body fat.

(5)  Burning was often done in open pits when the crematoria were not
sufficient.

(6)  Yes, it's entirely possible that they cooked the books.

All in all, this argument is far from convincing.
-- 
 Jamie McCarthy   Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu   AppleLink: j.mccarthy


Article 19793 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!codfish
From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: David Cole
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References:  <3brv93$dpo@newsbf01.news.aol.com> <3c1u64$n9t@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> <6DEC199421374108@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu> 
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 1994 22:59:05 GMT
Lines: 19

martev (martev@gate.net) wrote:
:   Sorry to disagree.. In an INTELLIGENT discussions of issues, education 
: is irrelevant, as far as discussion is concerned, but when a deliberate 
: twisted lying presentation is made, at such an amateur level, then the 
: question of education is quite relevant.

: It shows the lack of competance, and the fool should be put on display as 
: a fool...

: My main reason for the above statement is because of lurkers, who might 
: be fooled into believing the garbage he presents. They must be made to be 
: aware of the incompetancy and hate of the presenter and those that share his 
: ideas and lies.

: Anyway, I still think he is a jackass, who is probably sexually 
: dysfunctional and is trying to prove his manhood in which he has failed 
: miserably.

Who you talking about, Piper or yourself?


Article 19795 of alt.revisionism:
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From: tth@dhruva.caltech.edu (Thomas Hamilton)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "99% were happy as clams"
Date: 8 Dec 1994 00:17:08 GMT
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <3c5ja4$nba@gap.cco.caltech.edu>
References: <1994Nov30.204455.34958@miavx1>  <3c0c0f$p3c@riscsm.scripps.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: dhruva.caltech.edu

In article <3c0c0f$p3c@riscsm.scripps.edu> misrael@scripps.edu (Mark Israel) writes:
>In article , codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) writes:
>> In article <1994Nov30.204455.34958@miavx1>, bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu (Brian Harmon) writes:
>
>>> One thing often forgotten is that the fist victims of the 
>>> Nazis were the _Germans_.  
>>
>> Some minorities suffered, notably the Jews.  But 99% of the people 
>> were as happy as clams, at least until the war came along.
>
>   Ross, are you saying that when the Third Reich began,
>fewer than 1% of Germans were Jews?  Or what exactly are
>you trying to say?
>
The 1% number for Jews in Germany in 1933 is found in Lucy Dawidowicz'
book.   Dawidowicz states that that number had dropped to about .3% 
for pre-1937 Germany by the beginning of the war.  Are these numbers
controversial?

More generally, the idea that the Germans were "victims" of Nazism seems
to have been very popular amoung post-war Germans.  Most contemporary
observers and serious historians I have read suggest the average German
rather liked pre-war Nazism.



Article 19796 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Things are seldom what they seem
Date: 7 Dec 1994 21:45:56 GMT
Organization: Brown University
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <3c5aek$jjm@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu
Keywords: Jehovah's Witnesses

Ross Vicksell  wrote:

# He went on to become an 
# indefatigable revisionist researcher, specializing in photographic 
# and forensic examination of Auschwitz.

Felderer is the same nut whose piece about the "anal complex
of the Jews" was quoted here. Prof. Lipstadt, in her book,
mentions a few other examples of utterly revolting racist
propaganda items written by Felderer, who truly follows
in the footsteps of the most vulgar Nazi propagandist, 
Julius Streicher.

Feldrer's "forensic examination" is the same type of garbage
as the "Leuchter report". Let Vicksell post something about
it, so we can have a good laugh.


-Danny Keren.



Article 19802 of alt.revisionism:
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From: BRADLEY R. SMITH 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: David Cole
Date: Thu, 8 DEC 94 01:08:21 -0500
Organization: Delphi (info@delphi.com email, 800-695-4005 voice)
Lines: 20
Message-ID: 
References:  <3brv93$dpo@newsbf01.news.aol.com>   
NNTP-Posting-Host: bos1g.delphi.com
X-To: martev 

martev  writes:
 
>BS said they raised the money for it. I asked him where, and he hasn't 
>the guts to answer. We know of course that IHR financed little boy Davie's
> trip and camera...
 
I raised the money for D&B which paid for Cole's trip. IHR did not contribute.
It's non
It's not Martev's business to know who I got it from.
 
>I posted Dr Piper's letter of rebuttal here, and in it he stated accused 
>Cole of being a lying so and so. The tape was eddited to twist the words. 
>According to Dr Piper, he and his tour guides NEVER made the stgaements 
 
Cole's interview with Piper was edited.  That portion of the interview that
dealt
dealt with the modifications of Krema One is unedited. All you have to dois
watch the video and you will see that this is so. See for yourself. Contact Dan
Gann
"11


Article 19806 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!codfish
From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Things are seldom what they seem
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References:  <3c4pob$ok8@jabba.cybernetics.net>
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 07:10:16 GMT
Lines: 76

Chip Salzenberg (chip@cybernetics.net) wrote:
: = in the context in which you wrote it, you insulted the memory of all
: = those who suffered, including the Witnesses whose plight you brought
: = up.  What good is any so-called "freedom" (whatever you meant by that
: = term!) when holding the wrong religious beliefs were a one-way ticket
: = to a concentration camp -- or a morgue?
: = 

The Witnesses were in the camps because they refused to bear arms, not 
because of their religion.  The same thing happened in the US, except 
they called the camps "CO camps" instead of "concentration camps."  

: Ross, you both misrepresented my message and completely ignored its
: main point: the (im)morality of calling Nazi Germany "freer than you
: may think."  I am not surprised, but I am disappointed.

 Sorry, I'll try to to be less paranoid in the future.  Sometimes it's hard.

: 	      * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

: On to Felderer.  Ross writes:

: >It is important to note that when Felderer undertook his investigation he 
: >was a practicing Jehovah's Witness; he had not yet dabbled in Holocaust 
: >Revisionism.  After he had submitted his findings to the JW officials he 
: >was kicked out of the organization.

: Where did you get this story?

: >What follows is an except from Barbara Kulaszka's summary of Felderer's
: >testimony at the second Zuendel Trial.

I should have cited the source.  It's called "Did Six Million Really
Die?", not to be confused with the pamphlet of the same name. 

: Who is Barbara Kulaszka?  Where did you get this summary?

She's one of Ernst Zuendel's attorneys. Look in the TOC under Ditlieb 
Felderer.  He was the first defense witness.

: Now Ross continues with fourth-hand info.  Vicksell says that Kulaszka

We're talking about sworn testimony in a court of law.  I'll probably try 
to chase down the transcript, if I can find it in one of the law 
libraries in the Boston area.  I wanted to look at it anyway.

: says that a transcript records that Felderer said:

: >In the beginning, the Jehovah's Witnesses claimed that 60,000 of their 
: >members were killed in the Nazi concentration camps.   [...]
: >In a subsequent Yearbook published by the Jehovah's Witnesses, however,
: >they conceded that only 203 people were killed during the war.

: Before I comment, I'd like to see specific references to the
: Watchtower publications that made each of those claims.

Why don't you do the Watchtower stuff, in the interest of the pursuit of 
the Truth?  Why should I have to do all the work?


: 	      * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

: In any case, if (and I repeat, *if*) the Watchtower Society guessed
: wrong on its initial figures for Witnesses killed by Nazis, that fact
: might be interesting to Witnesses, but it is of zero relevance to the
: Nazi Holocaust against the Jews.

It's all part of the same Big Lie.  The current official line 
seems to be that 5000000 non-Jews were holocausted along with the Jews.
And just because the Jews and the homosexuals and the Gypsies inflated their 
losses, I can't see why the Jehovah's Witnesses had to, too.

              Ross Vicksell

: -- 
: Chip Salzenberg //  or 


Article 19808 of alt.revisionism:
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From: chip@cybernetics.net (Chip Salzenberg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Things are seldom what they seem
Date: 8 Dec 1994 14:42:38 GMT
Organization: Creative Cybernetics, Inc.
Lines: 107
Message-ID: <3c760u$2as@jabba.cybernetics.net>
References:  <3c4pob$ok8@jabba.cybernetics.net> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: server0.cybernetics.net

According to codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell):
>Chip Salzenberg (chip@cybernetics.net) wrote:
>>in the context in which you wrote it, you insulted the memory of all
>>those who suffered, including the Witnesses whose plight you brought
>>up.  What good is any so-called "freedom" (whatever you meant by that
>>term!) when holding the wrong religious beliefs were a one-way ticket
>>to a concentration camp -- or a morgue?
>
>The Witnesses were in the camps because they refused to bear arms, not 
>because of their religion.

Wrong.  The Witnessess _were_ imprisoned for their religion -- or do
you assert that the Witness *women* were put in camps because they
refused to bear arms?

There is some connection, of course.  If Witness men didn't refuse to
bear arms, the Witnesses as a group might have escaped Hitler's
personal attention (though their refusal to "Heil Hitler" might well
have gotten them into trouble as well).  And as far as I can tell,
most Witnesses who were officially executed (as opposed to being
simply murdered by thugs in uniform) were young men charged with
refusal to bear arms.  But the persecution of all Witnesses, and
particularly the arrests of women and the elderly (with the attendant
kidnaping of effectively orphaned children), was completely
unjustified.

>The same thing happened in the US, except they called the camps
>"CO camps" instead of "concentration camps."  

I have personal aquaintance with several people who were interned in
the US during WWII for refusal to bear arms.  They were all young men
at the time; they all went to minimum-security facilities; and none of
them was ever threatened with bodily harm, let alone murder, by
government officials or operatives.  That's not "the same thing" at ALL.

	      * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

>I should have cited the source [for Felderer's story].  It's called
>"Did Six Million Really Die?", not to be confused with the pamphlet
>of the same name. 

Hm.  I've heard of that book, but I don't remember who wrote it.  And
do you know who published it, in what year?

>>Who is Barbara Kulaszka?  Where did you get this summary?
>She's one of Ernst Zuendel's attorneys.

I see.

>We're talking about sworn testimony in a court of law.  I'll probably
>try to chase down the transcript, if I can find it in one of the law 
>libraries in the Boston area.  I wanted to look at it anyway.

I'd find that transcript of interest.  On the other hand, even though
sworn testimony deserves more weight than other speech, I am not
prepared to believe anything he might have said just because he said
it.  After all, people have been known to lie under oath from time to
time.  :-(  That's why I want the references I mention below.

>: >In the beginning, the Jehovah's Witnesses claimed that 60,000 of their 
>: >members were killed in the Nazi concentration camps.   [...]
>: >In a subsequent Yearbook published by the Jehovah's Witnesses, however,
>: >they conceded that only 203 people were killed during the war.
>
>: Before I comment, I'd like to see specific references to the
>: Watchtower publications that made each of those claims.
>
>Why don't you do the Watchtower stuff, in the interest of the pursuit of 
>the Truth?  Why should I have to do all the work?

I'm willing.  In fact I almost offered.  But the CD-ROM I have of
Society publications only goes back to the Watchtower of 1950 and the
Yearbook of 1980; thus I cannot be sure that I haven't missed some
reference to the number of deaths.  The published (paper) index goes
back to 1930, but it's no substitute for a full-text search, and I
have no immediate access to many of the publications it references.

On the other hand, if you find the transcript, it's possible that
Felderer himself made reference to specific publications; it would
have lent weight to his testimony.

On the gripping hand, perhaps the 60,000 number was made in private
correspondence or in other circumstances that would make it impossible
for anyone to find -- or verify.

	      * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

>>In any case, if (and I repeat, *if*) the Watchtower Society guessed
>>wrong on its initial figures for Witnesses killed by Nazis, that fact
>>might be interesting to Witnesses, but it is of zero relevance to the
>>Nazi Holocaust against the Jews.
>
>It's all part of the same Big Lie.  The current official line seems to
>be that 5000000 non-Jews were holocausted along with the Jews.  And just
>because the Jews and the homosexuals and the Gypsies inflated their
>losses, I can't see why the Jehovah's Witnesses had to, too.

So your point is that estimates of the number of people brutally and
undeservedly murdered by Nazis can be incorrect?  That's not news,
Ross.  In fact, everyone believes it.  It's not a point of contention.

But you also believe that there was no program of mass extermination
of Jews -- and here you must agree that the Witness experience is
irrelevant, because no one has ever asserted that there was a program
of mass extermination of Witnesses.  We were small fry.
-- 
Chip Salzenberg //  or 


Article 19811 of alt.revisionism:
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From: hmorrell@ubmail.ubalt.edu
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: hoch der CODOH
Message-ID: <1994Dec8.120309.2051@ubmail.ubalt.edu>
Date: 8 Dec 94 12:03:09 -0500
References: 
Organization: University of Baltimore
Lines: 34

In article , codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) writes:
> You may recall that MacLean's Magazine ran a feature story on Ken MacVay 
> and his selfless single-handed battle against the well-funded 
> hatemongers (i.e. us) on Internet.
> 
> I wrote a letter of response to MacClean's, which they printed, in a 
> somewhat edited form, in their Nov. 28th issue:
> 
> Here's what appeared:
> 
> As new England director of the Committee for Open Debate on the
> Holocaust, I am one of the people that Ken McVay, featured in your
> article "Battle on the Internet," fights in the alt.revisionism
> discussion group.  The national director of the committee, Bradley
> Smith, who runs Holocaust revisionism ads in college papers across the
> United States, also posts articles in alt.revisionism.  Neither of us
> is in the ranks of neo-Nazis, racists, or skinheads.  Our main reasons
> for being involved in this cause are the following: to allow people to
> hear the other side of the Holocaust story; to point out how the
> Holocaust story has been used over the years to foster support for the
> state of Israel; to assure people of German descent that their fathers
> and grandfathers were not genocidal fiends (many of our revisionists
> are German).
> 
>                Ross Vicksell,
>                Burlington, Mass.
> 


	Ich bin Deutscher und bin kein 'revisionist.' (Eigentlich sollen sie 
sich Leugner [oder noch besser, Luegner] statt Revisionist nennen.

			Harvey Morrell, der Exilbayer



Article 19826 of alt.revisionism:
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From: jeff_brown@pol.com (Jeffrey G. Brown)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: hoch der CODOH
Date: 10 Dec 1994 15:14:17 GMT
Organization: Internet Access Cincinnati 513-887-8877
Lines: 49
Message-ID: 
References: 
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In article , codfish@netcom.com (Ross
Vicksell) wrote:

> You may recall that MacLean's Magazine ran a feature story on Ken MacVay 
> and his selfless single-handed battle against the well-funded 
> hatemongers (i.e. us) on Internet.

Gee, Vicksell, thanks for that candid and honest admission of your status
("well-funded") and motivation (hatemongering).

> Neither of us
> is in the ranks of neo-Nazis, racists, or skinheads.

That's one point of view, and a self-serving one. Other differ with you in
that assessment.

> Our main reasons
> for being involved in this cause are the following: to allow people to
> hear the other side of the Holocaust story;...

How does distorting and lying about history constitute an "other side",
Vicksell?

> ...to point out how the
> Holocaust story has been used over the years to foster support for the
> state of Israel;...

I have yet to see any convincing evidence of this, from you or anyone else.

> to assure people of German descent that their fathers
> and grandfathers were not genocidal fiends...

Some folks' fathers _were_ "genocidal fiends", Vicksell. Are you
interested in truth, or in making all Germans feel warm and fuzzy about
what their parents did while serving Nazi Germany?

This sounds like you want to engage in debate, Vicksell. You've already
said here that the job of CODOH is to _encourage_ the debate, but not
necessarily _engage_ in it. Will you now engage in actual debate, or will
you run and hide (again) behind your weasel words about "encouraging" it
when confronted?

Posted and emailed.

JGB

=====================================================================
Jeffrey G. Brown                                   jeff_brown@pol.com
 "What's going to happen?"   "Something wonderful..."   -- '2010'


Article 19828 of alt.revisionism:
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From: martev 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: David Cole
Date: Sat, 10 Dec 1994 10:38:10 -0500 (EST)
Lines: 55
Message-ID: 
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In-Reply-To:  



On Fri, 9 Dec 1994, Jamie McCarthy wrote:

> martev  wrote:
> 
> > Strange, but YOU ADMIT you edited Pipers remarks?? Astounding???
> > 
> > WHY did you do it, or should we guess...... Twisting of facts...
> 
> Um, I think there may be a misunderstanding here.

  NO facts misunderstood at all... It's all VERY obvious..

> Piper's remarks are obviously edited in the sense that they cut to
> and from the comments that they want to hilight.  That's perfectly
> normal.
 
Yup, normal when one wants to change content and context, to suit one's 
usual distorion and lying techniques.

> I'm not sure why they'd call Piper's footage edited and e.g. Alicia's
> not edited, given that they do the exact same thing with her.  In
> fact it's more egregious with her -- at one point Cole asks her a
> question, and she starts to say, "no, ..."  The audio gets cut out
> right after her first word, when it's obvious she was going on to
> say something else.

Seems you can't see the trees for the forest.. SILENT?? WHY.. Just cut 
out what you don't like to hear.  Yup, NO, and then cut away????hmmmmmm
> 
> But that's neither here nor there.  

In other words, lying and distortion of truths is OK with you???

> My point is, the whole tape is
> edited -- editing is how you put a tape together from raw footage.
> When he says they "edited" Piper, he doesn't mean they dubbed words
> into his mouth.

What makes you think they didn't. Editing of tapes etc, is an amazing way 
fo putting other words in peoples mouths..

Dr Piper's letter was very obvious in that point. Guess you were not 
interested enough to read it when posted here. Figures, according to what 
you say above.  

He, Dr Piper,  said he was horribly misquoted by a lying 
'interviewer' who used devious means to obtain said interview.

>  "What is wrong with admiring Adolf Hitler?"  - Jack Wikoff

Interesting how you continue posting thsi quote. I guess it should be 
obvious to all who read your posts just where your ideoligies are.



Article 19839 of alt.revisionism:
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From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: David Cole
Date: Fri, 09 Dec 1994 12:13:43 -0500
Organization: University of Michigan
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Message-ID: 
References: 
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martev  wrote:

> Strange, but YOU ADMIT you edited Pipers remarks?? Astounding???
> 
> WHY did you do it, or should we guess...... Twisting of facts...

Um, I think there may be a misunderstanding here.

Piper's remarks are obviously edited in the sense that they cut to
and from the comments that they want to hilight.  That's perfectly
normal.

I'm not sure why they'd call Piper's footage edited and e.g. Alicia's
not edited, given that they do the exact same thing with her.  In
fact it's more egregious with her -- at one point Cole asks her a
question, and she starts to say, "no, ..."  The audio gets cut out
right after her first word, when it's obvious she was going on to
say something else.

But that's neither here nor there.  My point is, the whole tape is
edited -- editing is how you put a tape together from raw footage.
When he says they "edited" Piper, he doesn't mean they dubbed words
into his mouth.
-- 
 Jamie McCarthy   Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu   AppleLink: j.mccarthy
 "What is wrong with admiring Adolf Hitler?"  - Jack Wikoff


Article 19842 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Things are seldom what they seem
Date: 10 Dec 1994 17:34:17 GMT
Organization: Brown University
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <3ccoqp$9g7@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
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NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu

Ross Vicksell  wrote:

[a piece of utterly revolting antisemitic propaganda by "leading
revisionist" Felderer deleted]

# Felderer is an apostate Jew who has negative attitudes about what he 
# pecieves to be Jewish traits.  This does not detract one iota to the 
# value of his Holocaust investigations.

I read that Felderer is a Jehova witness. But this is not crucial.

The value of Felderer's "investigations" is indeed zero, just like
the value of the "Leuchter report" etc is zero. If Vicksell
believes otherwise, he can try and prove it here.

It is correct that there are two distinct matters here. First,
Felderer's "research" is garbage, just like all other "Holocaust
revisionist" research. Second, Felderer is an utterly disgusting
racist, a true follower of Julius Streicher. While these two
observations are not identical, they are highly correlated.


-Danny Keren.



Article 19843 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netnews
From: anny@ix.netcom.com (Annie Alpert)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: hoch der CODOH
Date: 10 Dec 1994 18:14:54 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 37
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <3ccr6u$gdl@ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>
References:  <1994Dec8.120309.2051@ubmail.ubalt.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ix-nwk4-22.ix.netcom.com

In <1994Dec8.120309.2051@ubmail.ubalt.edu> hmorrell@ubmail.ubalt.edu 
writes: 

>
>In article , codfish@netcom.com (Ross 
Vicksell) writes:
text of letter to McLeans deleted
>> ...to assure people of German descent that their fathers
>> and grandfathers were not genocidal fiends (many of our revisionists
>> are German).
>> 
>>                Ross Vicksell,
>>                Burlington, Mass.
>> 
>
>
>	Ich bin Deutscher und bin kein 'revisionist.' (Eigentlich sollen 
sie 
>sich Leugner [oder noch besser, Luegner] statt Revisionist nennen.
>
>			Harvey Morrell, der Exilbayer
>
>

I think it's important to note that the German government and the vast 
majority of the German people do not deny the Holocaust either.

Gruss Gott,

Annie

-- 
* * * * * * * * * 
Annie Alpert
"Those who deny freedom for others deserve it not for themselves."
                                   Abraham Lincoln
I'm also on PRODIGY at GMHV19A@PRODIGY.COM


Article 19847 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Things are seldom what they seem
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References:  <3c5em1$lt1@sol.sun.csd.unb.ca> <3c7970$jlt@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
Date: Sat, 10 Dec 1994 06:30:52 GMT
Lines: 31

Danny Keren (dzk@cs.brown.edu) wrote:
: Here's the piece by "leading revisionist" Felderer I mentioned
: yesterday. This is the same person Vicksell is full of praise
: for. Note how similar this is to the most vulgar type of Nazi
: propaganda, spread by Julius Streicher for example.

: 

: # We feel that another forceful reason why the Anne Frank diary cannot be
: # entirely dismissed as a fictitious story is its preoccupation with the
: # anus and excrements, a trait typical of many Jews.  Pornography and
: # excretal fantasies have always fascinated many of them and they have
: # therefore also been the greatest exploiters of these things.  ... Jewish
: # writings have been infused with stories about the reproductive and
: # excremental functions.  ... Although we cannot dismiss the argument that
: # these excremental preoccupations are mere fancies on the part of the
: # author or authors there are good reasons to believe the stories are
: # genuine and are in part reflecting some of the foremost intellectual
: # thought of the occupants.  Even if they were invented they nevertheless
: # splendidly depict the anal complex, of an ancient, cultural people.

: 


: -Danny Keren.

Felderer is an apostate Jew who has negative attitudes about what he 
pecieves to be Jewish traits.  This does not detract one iota to the 
value of his Holocaust investigations.

                     Ross Vicksell


Article 19849 of alt.revisionism:
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Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Things are seldom what they seem
Message-ID: <1994Dec10.234923.35615@miavx1>
From: bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu (Raskolnikov)
Date: 10 Dec 94 23:49:23 -0500
References:  <3c5em1$lt1@sol.sun.csd.unb.ca>   
 
Organization: Miami University
Lines: 42

In article , codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) writes:

[excerpt from Felderer's book about 'anal complex' of the jews deleted]

> Felderer is an apostate Jew who has negative attitudes about what he 
> pecieves to be Jewish traits.  This does not detract one iota to the 
> value of his Holocaust investigations.
> 
>                      Ross Vicksell
-- 

Let me ask you something.  

Let's assume I'd written a piece (say a column) about the 
'anal complex of the Irish' and discussed how the Irish are
often fascinated with excretions.  

I don't cite any evidence for this claim.

Would I then be a good person to discuss/write about historical 
events involving the Irish?  

No, of course not.

Would it make any difference if I was Irish myself?

No, it wouldn't.  Just because I might be really odd doesn't
mean that all Irish are.  Furthermore, my bias against the
Irish would still ring out loud and clear.

Had I done such a thing, I would be just about the _last_
person in a good position to examine anything involving 
Irish history.

This is precisely the hole Felderer dug for himself.

=======================================================================
Brian Harmon           "What is done from love is always beyond
Miami University	   good and evil."
Oxford, Ohio 45056	  	 -Nietzsche, _Beyond Good and Evil_	   
--------------bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu--------------------------



Article 19854 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!news1.digex.net!access3!karlpov
From: karlpov@access3.digex.net (Charles R.L. Power)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: hoch der CODOH
Date: 11 Dec 1994 00:24:13 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 8
Message-ID: 
References:  <1994Dec8.120309.2051@ubmail.ubalt.edu> <3ccr6u$gdl@ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access3.digex.net

codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) writes:

>Fritz Berg took a friend of mine and I to a meeting of the NYC chapter of
>the Von Steuben Society, a nationwide German social/cultural club, a
>couple of months ago, though neither my friend or I are of German descent. 
>EVERY German-American there was a Holocaust doubter. 

How pathetic!  BTW, what proportion of the Von Steuben Society is Jewish?


Article 19855 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!galaxy.ucr.edu!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!scripps.edu!misrael
From: misrael@scripps.edu (Mark Israel)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "99% were happy as clams"
Date: 8 Dec 1994 20:15:59 GMT
Organization: The Scripps Research Institute, La Jolla, California, USA
Lines: 11
Message-ID: <3c7phv$jg1@riscsm.scripps.edu>
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In article <3c5ja4$nba@gap.cco.caltech.edu>, tth@dhruva.caltech.edu (Thomas Hamilton) writes:

> The 1% number for Jews in Germany in 1933 is found in Lucy Dawidowicz'
> book.   Dawidowicz states that that number had dropped to about .3% 
> for pre-1937 Germany by the beginning of the war.

   Oh.  Pardon my ignorance.  What was the total population of Germany
at this time?

--
misrael@scripps.edu			Mark Israel


Article 19858 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: David Cole
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References:  <3brv93$dpo@newsbf01.news.aol.com> 
Date: Tue, 6 Dec 1994 06:41:35 GMT
Lines: 22

David Cole has passed on a couple of tidbits about the Auschwitz State
Museum and the latest party line.  I offer them for your amusement and
edification. 

The museum has officially changed its tour guide spiel so now tourists 
are told IMMEDIATELY that Krema I IS NOT in its original state, that it 
was changed after liberation, and that the holes in the ceiling were put 
in AFTER liberation. Those of you who saw David's video will recall the 
tour guide telling David that Krema I WAS in its original state. I 
forget, what were you saying - that she never said any such thing but 
that David cleverly dubbed in someone saying that with a Polish accent?  
Or maybe that scene was just shot on a back lot in Hollywood.

It gets better.  Jean Claude Pressac is in conflict with the museum over
the post-liberation remodeling job.  He says there were THREE "Zyklon B
induction holes" in the roof, and they ran in a straight line.  The Museum
says there were FOUR holes, in rows of two (as is presently in the roof of
Krema I). 

Who's right?  Let's hear YOUR opinions.  Make your vote count.

                   Ross Vicksell


Article 19860 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Things are seldom what they seem
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References:  <3c4pob$ok8@jabba.cybernetics.net>  <3c760u$2as@jabba.cybernetics.net>
Date: Fri, 9 Dec 1994 05:28:41 GMT
Lines: 15

Obviously we need more documention to help us find out why the Jehovah's
Witnesses were incarcerated by the Germans and what happened to them in
the camps.  As I said, I'll try to chase down the transcript of Felderer's
testimony, but what would be more valuable would be the report Felderer
submitted to the Witnesses. 

The most obvious source for a copy of this report would be Felderer, but
it might be easier to get it from the Witnesses themselves, who presumably
have a copy filed away somewhere.  Maybe Chip could look into this. 

And once again, I can see no reason why alt.revisionism is not an 
appropriate forum for discussing the fate of non-Jews imprisoned in the 
camps.

               Ross Vicksell


Article 19862 of alt.revisionism:
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From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: hoch der CODOH
Date: Thu, 08 Dec 1994 15:06:09 -0500
Organization: University of Michigan
Lines: 18
Message-ID: 
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm005-07.dialip.mich.net

codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) wrote:

> ...I am one of the people that Ken McVay, featured in your
> article "Battle on the Internet," fights in the alt.revisionism
> discussion group.  ...  Neither of us
> is in the ranks of neo-Nazis, racists, or skinheads.

Ross, neither Ken nor anyone else does much "fighting" against you;  you
simply say very little of any substance.  Nothing much to fight against.

The people that we _do_ "fight," like Friedrich Berg, Dan Gannon,
Greg Raven and Jack Wikoff, _are_ admitted neo-Nazis, racists, or
skinheads.

Guess you just forgot to mention that, huh?
-- 
 Jamie McCarthy   Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu   AppleLink: j.mccarthy
 "What is wrong with admiring Adolf Hitler?"  - Jack Wikoff


Article 19864 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dmittleman@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "99% were happy as clams"
Date: 6 Dec 1994 06:54 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 24
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6DEC199406541417@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <1994Nov28.204946.34807@miavx1> <1994Nov30.204455.34958@miavx1>  <3c0c0f$p3c@riscsm.scripps.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: misvms.bpa.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <3c0c0f$p3c@riscsm.scripps.edu>, misrael@scripps.edu (Mark Israel) writes...
>In article , codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) writes:
>> In article <1994Nov30.204455.34958@miavx1>, bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu (Brian Harmon) writes:

>>> One thing often forgotten is that the fist victims of the 
>>> Nazis were the _Germans_.  

>> Some minorities suffered, notably the Jews.  But 99% of the people 
>> were as happy as clams, at least until the war came along.

>   Ross, are you saying that when the Third Reich began,
>fewer than 1% of Germans were Jews?  Or what exactly are
>you trying to say?

    Ross will be hard pressed to defend his 99% figure as he has to account
    for: Catholics, trade unionists, Communists, other leftists, physically
    and mentally handicapped, Bauhaus artisans, homosexuals, gypsies, SA
    members, and intellectuals, as well as Jews.

    The one thing all these people had in common, as Brian says, is that
    they were German.

===========================================================================
daniel david mittleman     -     danny@arizona.edu     -     (602) 621-2932


Article 19876 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!unixg.ubc.ca!vanbc.wimsey.com!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!codfish
From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Things are seldom what they seem
Message-ID: 
Keywords: Jehovah's Witnesses
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 1994 06:06:06 GMT
Lines: 39

I just received  an email message expressing doubts about Ditlieb Felderer's
conclusions on how the Jehovah's Witnesses fared in the camps.  Here's a 
little more on the subject.

It is important to note that when Felderer undertook his investigation he 
was a practicing Jehovah's Witness; he had not yet dabbled in Holocaust 
Revisionism.  After he had submitted his findings to the JW officials he 
was kicked out of the organization.   He went on to become an 
indefatigable revisionist researcher, specializing in photographic and 
forensic examination of Auschwitz.

What follows is an except from Barbara Kulaszka's summary of Felderer's
testimony at the second Zuendel Trial.  If you're interested in the
full testimony, it might be available in some law library.  The stuff
in square brackets is by me.

Felderer's interest in the subject [the Holocaust] had been aroused during
his years as a researcher for the Witnesses' governing body in the history
of the Jehovah's Witnesses during World War II.  Members of the sect were
incarcerated in virtually every camp in Nazi Germany during the war and
also in such countries as Canada because they refused to bear arms.
(18-4225 to 4229) In the beginning, the Jehovah's Witnesses claimed that
60,000 [remind you of something?] of their members were killed in the Nazi
concentration camps.  Felderer's research on the question, which took him
to the headquarters of the Jehovah's Witnesses in New York, as well as to
archives in Toronto, Switzerland, and Scandinavian countries, convinced
him that the actual number was far lower, and that only about 200 [!]
Jehovah's Witnesses were killed.  Felderer's research put Felderer on a
collision course with the sect; the leadership in New York warned members
that they were not allowed to speak to him.  In a subsequent Yearbook
published by the Jehovah's Witnesses, however, they conceded that only 203
people were killed during the war. [There were obviously others who died
in the camps of natural causes.] Felderer has told Zuendel about this
research (18-4226 to 4229; 4645)

                Ross Vicksell





Article 19877 of alt.revisionism:
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From: etlrbsy@etlxdmx.ericsson.se (Uncle Pain)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Lurker comment
Date: 5 Dec 1994 15:29:32 GMT
Organization: Ericsson Telecommunications Ltd
Lines: 52
Message-ID: <3bvbks$kdr@erinews.ericsson.se>
References: 
Reply-To: etlrbsy@etlxdmx.ericsson.se
NNTP-Posting-Host: etlxd23zm.ericsson.se

In article 8v2@netcom.com, codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) writes:
>Uncle Pain (etlrbsy@etlxdmx.ericsson.se) wrote:
>:    You mustn't be critical of someone you wants to protect their anonimity
>:   in this group. We all know the nature of the majority of people who
>:   support revisionism.
>
>Boy, how's that for a sweeping generalization!
>

    A generalisation, yes, but true none the less.

>:    Here in Europe people are targetted by neo-nazi groups for supporting
>:   anti-fascist causes, you may consider yourself safe in Arizona, but
>:   not everyone can rest easy.
>:    A couple of years ago I joined an anti-fascist group and put my name
>:   to many petitions, soon after I found stickers had been put on the 
>:   gates to my house saying "Beware - we are watching you" it was signed
>
>:   off in the name of a neo-Nazi group. This won't stop me from protesting
>:   against fascism, but it does make you think twice before giving your
>:   name or address for any political purpose.
>
>: - U.P   
>
>This is so ludicrous it's almost sad.  All over Europe revisionists are
>being persecuted in every conceivable way with the full complicity of the
>powers that be and this guy thinks it's a big deal when somebody sticks a
>sticker on his gate.  We should have it so good.  Dittlieb Felderer was
>incarcerated for several months by the Swedish goverment just for
>circulating revisionist literature. 
>
>              Ross Vicksell


   I find it a big deal when someone has gone to all the trouble of
 finding my address, going to my house and threatening me, all
 because I used a democratic right to petition for a cause which I
 believe in.
   Other people who been more outspoken on such issues have suffered
 verbal abuse, petrol bombs through letter boxes, harrassment via
 telephone and bricks through windows. 
   Incidentally, I live in the UK not Sweden so I can't comment
 on the case in question. Perhaps you should go and talk to the
 young Asian and black school children in Sweden who have been
 beaten by teenage neo-nazi gangs there.

- U.P   







Article 19887 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: hoch der CODOH
Date: 11 Dec 1994 15:04 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 33
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <11DEC199415044409@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References:  <1994Dec8.120309.2051@ubmail.ubalt.edu> <3ccr6u$gdl@ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article , codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) writes...
>Annie Alpert (anny@ix.netcom.com) wrote:

>: I think it's important to note that the German government and the vast 
>: majority of the German people do not deny the Holocaust either.

>Could it have anything to do with the fact the it's against the law to 
>publicly express doubts about the Holocaust story over there?

    Possibly.  I'd prefer that it wasn't against the law.  Why do you think
    the German government determined that it should be against the law?

>Fritz Berg took a friend of mine and I to a meeting of the NYC chapter of
>the Von Steuben Society, a nationwide German social/cultural club, a
>couple of months ago, though neither my friend or I are of German descent. 
>EVERY German-American there was a Holocaust doubter. 

>It's my impression that a lot of German/Americans have  doubts about 
>the Holocaust story, but they don't want to get into trouble by saying 
>anything about it.  They simply want to lead normal lives.

    Then we should do something about this situation.  We should [1]
    educate them that the holocaust happens to be fact.  We should show
    them sufficient evidence to demonstrate that it is fact.  We should
    calmly answer any questions they raise about the facts.  We should
    [2] make it very clear that most people do not blame all Germans  (or
    German/Americans) for the holocaust, rather people recognize that
    Germans were victims of the Nazi regime.  And we should [3] work along
    side these people to convince those few who do blame all Germans that
    they are wrong to do so.

===========================================================================
daniel david mittleman     -     danny@arizona.edu     -     (602) 621-2932


Article 19888 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!sunserver.insinc.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!csus.edu!netcom.com!codfish
From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Things are seldom what they seem
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References:  <3c5em1$lt1@sol.sun.csd.unb.ca> <3c7970$jlt@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>  <3ccoqp$9g7@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
Date: Sun, 11 Dec 1994 03:41:38 GMT
Lines: 39

Danny Keren (dzk@cs.brown.edu) wrote:
: Ross Vicksell  wrote:

: [a piece of utterly revolting antisemitic propaganda by "leading
: revisionist" Felderer deleted]

: # Felderer is an apostate Jew who has negative attitudes about what he 
: # peceives to be Jewish traits.  This does not detract one iota from the 
: # value of his Holocaust investigations.

: I read that Felderer is a Jehovah witness. But this is not crucial.

: The value of Felderer's "investigations" is indeed zero, just like
: the value of the "Leuchter report" etc is zero. If Vicksell

your opinion.

: believes otherwise, he can try and prove it here.

We've already touched on some of Felderer's findings here.  Like the 
brothel for inmate use, which your side insisted, not very convincingly, 
was NOT for inmate use.

: It is correct that there are two distinct matters here. First,
: Felderer's "research" is garbage, just like all other "Holocaust
: revisionist" research. Second, Felderer is an utterly disgusting
: racist, a true follower of Julius Streicher. While these two

Felderer's wife is Filipino.  In fact, this helped gain him entry to 
the Auschwitz archives, because Piper et.al. thought she was Vietnamese!  
Not your typical racist.  Plus which Felderer is totally apolitical - 
not your typical Nazi.

: observations are not identical, they are 
highly correlated.


: -Danny Keren.



Article 19891 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!sunserver.insinc.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news2.near.net!cat.cis.Brown.EDU!dzk
From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Things are seldom what they seem
Date: 11 Dec 1994 22:48:40 GMT
Organization: Brown University
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <3cfvk8$i5d@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
References:   <3ccoqp$9g7@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu

Ross Vicksell  wrote:
# Danny Keren (dzk@cs.brown.edu) wrote:

## The value of Felderer's "investigations" is indeed zero, just like
## the value of the "Leuchter report" etc is zero. If Vicksell
## believes otherwise, he can try and prove it here.

# We've already touched on some of Felderer's findings here.  Like the 
# brothel for inmate use, which your side insisted, not very convincingly, 
# was NOT for inmate use.

I believe it was Jamie McCarthy who answered this, quoting former
prisoners. There were a few categories of prisoners in Auschwitz.
Some of the trustees, and, mostly, "Aryan" prisoners, were
treated not so bad. They also had a brothel. Big deal. 

Why does Vicksell believe there was a brothel, and doesn't
believe that mass murder took place? There are far more
testimonies about the mass murder in Auschwitz than about the
brothel. There is documentary evidence proving it. 

The answer is simple - Vicksell believes what he wants to
believe, that is, he first decided what happened in Auschwitz
and now he rejects or accepts the evidence accordingly.

## It is correct that there are two distinct matters here. First,
## Felderer's "research" is garbage, just like all other "Holocaust
## revisionist" research. Second, Felderer is an utterly disgusting
## racist, a true follower of Julius Streicher. While these two

# Felderer's wife is Filipino.  

Wow! And this, I guess, really proves he doesn't hate Jews! I mean,
his disgusting "analysis" of the "Jewish anal complex", and the
utterly revolting racist crap he published (see Prof. Lipstadt's
book) don't count; what counts is that his wife is Filipino!


-Danny Keren.



Article 19902 of alt.revisionism:
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From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: hoch der CODOH
Date: Sun, 11 Dec 1994 12:36:14 -0500
Organization: University of Michigan
Lines: 24
Message-ID: 
References: 
   <1994Dec8.120309.2051@ubmail.ubalt.edu>
   <3ccr6u$gdl@ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>
   
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm005-08.dialip.mich.net

codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) wrote:

> Annie Alpert (anny@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
> 
> : I think it's important to note that the German government and the vast 
> : majority of the German people do not deny the Holocaust either.
> 
> Could it have anything to do with the fact the it's against the law to 
> publicly express doubts about the Holocaust story over there?

In my personal experience, no.  Not a bit.

You guys fool yourselves if you think you're speaking for silent
Germans.  The vast majority of Germans desperately want you to
please shut up and go away.

One thing that's always impressed me about Germany is that people
will take to the streets in large numbers to hold peaceful protests
against ideologies.  When 60,000 people, 80,000, or 100,000 will
walk through Muenchen or Bonn holding candles to protest right-wing
violence, that says a lot.
-- 
 Jamie McCarthy   Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu   AppleLink: j.mccarthy
 "What is wrong with admiring Adolf Hitler?"  - Jack Wikoff


Article 19912 of alt.revisionism:
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From: t08o@adrastea.sun.csd.unb.ca (Keith Morrison)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Things are seldom what they seem
Date: 7 Dec 1994 22:58:09 GMT
Organization: University of New Brunswick, Fredericton, NB, Canada
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <3c5em1$lt1@sol.sun.csd.unb.ca>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: adrastea.sun.csd.unb.ca
Keywords: Jehovah's Witnesses

From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Message-ID: 

>(18-4225 to 4229) In the beginning, the Jehovah's Witnesses claimed that
>60,000 [remind you of something?] of their members were killed in the Nazi
>concentration camps.  

I see.  So whenever someone mentions that x number of people were killed
at one time and the number x contains the digit 6 we should therefore 
take the reported number of people killed with a grain of salt.

Gotcha.

---------------------------------------------------------------

Keith Morrison

"The only powdered manure anywhere is in the brain of the guy who
 posted it to alt.revisionism."  - Thomas Doyal, 3 Dec 1994

************************************************************
*t08o@unb.ca  *  My views are not those of the University  *
***************  of New Brunswick.  UNB never has views on *
*             *  on anything, ever.                        *
************************************************************


                         




Article 19914 of alt.revisionism:
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From: Keith Morrison 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "99% were happy as clams"
Date: 08 DEC 94 01:34:38 AST
Organization: The University of New Brunswick
Lines: 30
Sender: usenet@UNB.CA
Message-ID: <08DEC94.01703679.0208@UNBVM1.CSD.UNB.CA>
References: <1994Nov30.204455.34958@miavx1>  <3c0c0f$p3c@riscsm.scripps.edu> <3c5ja4$nba@gap.cco.caltech.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: unbvm1.csd.unb.ca

In article <3c5ja4$nba@gap.cco.caltech.edu> tth@dhruva.caltech.edu (Thomas Hamilton) writes:
>
>More generally, the idea that the Germans were "victims" of Nazism seems
>to have been very popular amoung post-war Germans.  Most contemporary
>observers and serious historians I have read suggest the average German
>rather liked pre-war Nazism.
>

That doesn't mean a thing.  There is no requirement that states a
victim must dislike the criminal before the commission of the crime.

An analogous example (gosh, I seem to have a lot of those lately)
would be the con artist, where in a large proportion of the cases
the victim probably liked the crook before s/he realized the shirt
had been stolen off his/her back.

Before '39 it is true that the vast majority of Germans were
probably at worst apathetic about their government's actions because
they did not directly harm them.  For the majority of the German
populace, the crime was the blatant disregard the Nazi leadership
had for the welfare of its citizens when it was evident they were
about to lose the war.

--
Keith Morrison
t08o@unb.ca

"The commandment says 'thou shalt not kill', not 'thou shalt not
 kill nice people'."   - Michael Moriarty, "Law and Order"



Article 19923 of alt.revisionism:
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From: martev 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: David Cole
Date: Tue, 6 Dec 1994 21:10:08 -0500 (EST)
Lines: 26
Message-ID: 
References:  <3brv93$dpo@newsbf01.news.aol.com>  
NNTP-Posting-Host: hopi.gate.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
In-Reply-To:  



On Tue, 6 Dec 1994, Ross Vicksell wrote:

> David Cole has passed on a couple of tidbits about the Auschwitz State
> Museum and the latest party line.  I offer them for your amusement and
> edification. 
> 
> Who's right?  Let's hear YOUR opinions.  Make your vote count.
> 
Ross, the garbage that Cole AND B smith put out, I am sure you read the 
posts, is such an amateurish production, it's hard to believe..

BS said they raised the money for it. I asked him where, and he hasn't 
the guts to answer. We know of course that IHR financed little boy Davie's
 trip and camera...

I posted Dr Piper's letter of rebuttal here, and in it he stated accused 
Cole of being a lying so and so. The tape was eddited to twist the words. 
According to Dr Piper, he and his tour guides NEVER made the stgaements 
in the context they were edited... It's easy to cut and fake...

Nuff said??

With the exception of Bradley Smith and his henchies, everyone is 
laughing at the tape...


Article 19957 of alt.revisionism:
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From: martev 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: David Cole
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 19:56:30 -0500 (EST)
Lines: 45
Message-ID: 
References:  <3brv93$dpo@newsbf01.news.aol.com>    
NNTP-Posting-Host: seminole.gate.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
In-Reply-To:  



On Thu, 8 Dec 1994, BRADLEY R. SMITH wrote:

> martev  writes:
>  
> >BS said they raised the money for it. I asked him where, and he hasn't 
> >the guts to answer. We know of course that IHR financed little boy Davie's
> > trip and camera...
>  
> I raised the money for D&B which paid for Cole's trip. IHR did not contribute.

  I do not, and I am sure no one else either believes that statement.

> It's not
> It's not Martev's business to know who I got it from.

  Of course, we would expect just such an answer from you...

> >I posted Dr Piper's letter of rebuttal here, and in it he stated accused 
> >Cole of being a lying so and so. The tape was eddited to twist the words. 
> >According to Dr Piper, he and his tour guides NEVER made the stgaements 
>  
> Cole's interview with Piper was edited.  That portion of the interview that
> dealt
> dealt with the modifications of Krema One is unedited. All you have to dois
> watch the video and you will see that this is so. See for yourself.  
  Contact Dan > Gann
> "11

   If Pipers interview was edited, proves what I have said. As far as 
watchimg the tape to SEE if it was edited, ya gotta be kidding. Even 
though you use unsophisticated equipment, it still is easy to hide marks.

Strange, but YOU ADMIT you edited Pipers remarks?? Astounding???

WHY did you do it, or should we guess...... Twisting of facts...

BTW Bradley, tell us, are you in ANY WAY at all affiliated with IHR?

Do you have any connections there at all?????

OOOPPPPSSS, guess that question is a waste, correct?

Takes an honest man to be honest


Article 19959 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!sunserver.insinc.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netnews
From: anny@ix.netcom.com (Annie Alpert)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: hoch der CODOH
Date: 12 Dec 1994 00:22:18 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 43
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <3cg53q$33v@ixnews1.ix.netcom.com>
References:  <1994Dec8.120309.2051@ubmail.ubalt.edu> <3ccr6u$gdl@ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>  <3cdaul$odi@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ix-nwk4-23.ix.netcom.com

In <3cdaul$odi@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes: 

>
>Ross Vicksell  wrote:
># I wrote:
## I think it's important to note that the German government and the 
>## vast majority of the German people do not deny the Holocaust either.
>
An Ross replied:
># Could it have anything to do with the fact the it's against the law 
to ># publicly express doubts about the Holocaust story over there?
>
and:
># Fritz Berg took a friend of mine and I to a meeting of the NYC 
chapter of
># the Von Steuben Society, a nationwide German social/cultural club, a
># couple of months ago, 
># though neither my friend or I are of German descent. 
># EVERY German-American there was a Holocaust doubter. 
>

I was more specifically referring to statements made by German officials 
like Konrad Adenauer after the war.  The German people had more than 
adequate opportunity to claim the Holocaust was a hoax when the entire 
affair was fresh in their minds.

In addition, I was raised in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, the home of one of 
the largest German-American communities in the US.  My dear old Grandma 
(a native of Mauthen, Austria) took my dad to German-American Bund  
meetings before the war.  I never at any time in my life ever heard of 
the concept of Holocaust denial until about 5 years ago when I joined 
Prodigy.  In fact, come to think of it, I never heard of anti-Semitism, 
either.  I had to look the word up in the dictionary when I first heard 
of it in the 1970's.  It wasn't part of my life.



-- 
* * * * * * * * * 
Annie Alpert
"Those who deny freedom for others deserve it not for themselves."
                                   Abraham Lincoln
I'm also on PRODIGY at GMHV19A@PRODIGY.COM


Article 19960 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!darkstar.UCSC.EDU!news.hal.COM!decwrl!netcomsv!netcom.com!codfish
From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Ditlieb Felderer Jailed in Sweden
Message-ID: 
Keywords: Felderer
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 1994 06:33:37 GMT
Lines: 34

The article below, which I have abbreviated, appeared in Ernst Zuendel's 
last newsletter.  It was written by a European revisionist.  Don't ask 
me why it took this long for this news to surface, I don't know why.

                  Ross Vicksell
_______________________________________________________________________

                                                    Stockholm, Nov. 4, 1994

              Yet Another Revisionist in Jail

The Swede Ditlieb Felderer, 52, known for his revisionist activities and 
publications, was arrested in his Stockholm home October 12 and taken to 
a detention centre reserved for great criminals, where he occupies a 2 
meter by 2 meter cell.  The police smashed his apartment's door open.  It 
is continuing, even today, to search on the spot for material evidence of 
the intellectual crime D. Felderer is reproached with.  Writings were 
seized and confiscated.

The Swedish television merely announced: " A 52 year old man was arrested 
in Stockholm's northern suburbs and incarcerated for having been wanting 
in respect for the Jewish people in claiming that the number of six 
million Jewish deaths during the Second World War was inaccurate."
...
In Sweden the Jewish lobby has not yet managed to get an anti-revisionist 
law voted as in France and Austria.  Historical revisionism is called 
"lack of respect for the Jewish people" there, which makes it possible 
for it to fall under the effect of the law regarding "incitement against 
ethnic groups", a law which, originally, had nothing to do with 
historical research.  The motif of the long detention is a wish "to have 
the time to consult the Austrian and German authorities "more adapted to 
D. Felderer's case and to be able to consult Jewish "experts on 
'antisemitism' ".
...


Article 19966 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!sunserver.insinc.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netnews
From: anny@ix.netcom.com (Annie Alpert)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: hoch der CODOH
Date: 13 Dec 1994 00:03:19 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 25
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <3cioc7$nhs@ixnews1.ix.netcom.com>
References:  <1994Dec8.120309.2051@ubmail.ubalt.edu> <3ccr6u$gdl@ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: ix-nwk5-16.ix.netcom.com

In  codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) 
writes: 
>It's my impression that a lot of German/Americans have  doubts about 
>the Holocaust story, but they don't want to get into trouble by saying 
>anything about it.  They simply want to lead normal lives.
>
>
Ross, NETCOM just posted your note here today, so my timing is a little 
off.

I know quite a few German-Americans...many of them in my own family and 
have never once heard a single German American person express doubts 
about the Holocaust.  Perhaps we run in different circles.

The closest I'v ever come was my high school best friend wh o moved to 
Milwaukee from Germany in her Sophmore years.  Her dad had a framed 
picture of himself in his SS uniform on the hall table.  She told me 
that she and her family were "afraid of the Jews" who wanted to get back 
at them for "what happened in the war."
-- 
* * * * * * * * * 
Annie Alpert
"Those who deny freedom for others deserve it not for themselves."
                                   Abraham Lincoln
I'm also on PRODIGY at GMHV19A@PRODIGY.COM


Article 19972 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!unixg.ubc.ca!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!torn!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!codfish
From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: David Cole
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References:  
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 1994 03:51:42 GMT
Lines: 17

I'm afraid y'all may have missed the points David was trying to make.

Firstly, the tour guides changed theit speil AFTER David had his little 
tete a tete with Piper. I know, coincidence.

Secondly they can't settle on how many induction holes were in the roof 
of Krema I; it's the three-holes versus the four-holers.

Let me venture an hypothesis as to way this is so.  Maybe there are TWO sets 
of blueprints for this particular "gas chamber" - one with three holes 
and one with four holes.  This was perhaps the result of having two teams 
of design engineers work on the problem of achieving the maximum 
throughput, your typical Teutonic obsession with efficiency. Who won out?
I'm sort of guessing it was the three-holers, because I've seen some air 
photos that look definitely three-holish.

                    Ross Vicksell


Article 19973 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Things are seldom what they seem
Date: 8 Dec 1994 15:37:04 GMT
Organization: Brown University
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <3c7970$jlt@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
References:  <3c5em1$lt1@sol.sun.csd.unb.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu
Keywords: Jehovah's Witnesses

Here's the piece by "leading revisionist" Felderer I mentioned
yesterday. This is the same person Vicksell is full of praise
for. Note how similar this is to the most vulgar type of Nazi
propaganda, spread by Julius Streicher for example.



# We feel that another forceful reason why the Anne Frank diary cannot be
# entirely dismissed as a fictitious story is its preoccupation with the
# anus and excrements, a trait typical of many Jews.  Pornography and
# excretal fantasies have always fascinated many of them and they have
# therefore also been the greatest exploiters of these things.  ... Jewish
# writings have been infused with stories about the reproductive and
# excremental functions.  ... Although we cannot dismiss the argument that
# these excremental preoccupations are mere fancies on the part of the
# author or authors there are good reasons to believe the stories are
# genuine and are in part reflecting some of the foremost intellectual
# thought of the occupants.  Even if they were invented they nevertheless
# splendidly depict the anal complex, of an ancient, cultural people.




-Danny Keren.



Article 19977 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: German-Americans
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Date: Tue, 13 Dec 1994 02:16:43 GMT
Lines: 32

Annie Alpert (anny@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: In  codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) 
: writes: 
: >It's my impression that a lot of German/Americans have  doubts about 
: >the Holocaust story, but they don't want to get into trouble by saying 
: >anything about it.  They simply want to lead normal lives.

: I know quite a few German-Americans...many of them in my own family and 
: have never once heard a single German American person express doubts 
: about the Holocaust.  Perhaps we run in different circles.

Admittedly I've been involved with a rather biased sample of 
German-Americans.  And often the spouses of revisionist German-Americans 
wish their mates would drop the whole thing.  As I said above, they just 
want to lead normal lives.

: The closest I'v ever come was my high school best friend who moved to 
: Milwaukee from Germany in her Sophomore years.  Her dad had a framed 
: picture of himself in his SS uniform on the hall table.  She told me 
: that she and her family were "afraid of the Jews" who wanted to get back 
: at them for "what happened in the war."
: -- 
: * * * * * * * * * 
: Annie Alpert
: "Those who deny freedom for others deserve it not for themselves."
:                                    Abraham Lincoln

Agreed.

: I'm also on PRODIGY at GMHV19A@PRODIGY.COM

             Ross Vicksell


Article 19980 of alt.revisionism:
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Ditlieb Felderer Jailed in Sweden
Message-ID: 
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Date: Tue, 13 Dec 1994 02:39:24 GMT
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Those of you who wish to contribute to Ditlieb Felderer's legal costs can
do so by sending a check to Ernst Zuendel.  Make it out to Ernst and write
on it "for Felderer Defence Fund." 

Send it to:

              Ernst Zuendel
              206 Carleton St.
              Toronto, Ontario 
              Canada M5A 1L1


Article 19996 of alt.revisionism:
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From: martev 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: David Cole
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 19:39:44 -0500 (EST)
Lines: 37
Message-ID: 
References:  <3brv93$dpo@newsbf01.news.aol.com> <3c1u64$n9t@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> <6DEC199421374108@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu>  
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On Wed, 7 Dec 1994, Ross Vicksell wrote:



> martev (martev@gate.net) wrote:
> :   Sorry to disagree.. In an INTELLIGENT discussions of issues, education 
> : is irrelevant, as far as discussion is concerned, but when a deliberate 
> : twisted lying presentation is made, at such an amateur level, then the 
> : question of education is quite relevant.
> 
> : It shows the lack of competance, and the fool should be put on display as 
> : a fool...
> 
> : My main reason for the above statement is because of lurkers, who might 
> : be fooled into believing the garbage he presents. They must be made to be 
> : aware of the incompetancy and hate of the presenter and those that share his 
> : ideas and lies.
> 
> : Anyway, I still think he is a jackass, who is probably sexually 
> : dysfunctional and is trying to prove his manhood in which he has failed 
> : miserably.
> 
> Who you talking about, Piper or yourself?
 
   My my, Mr Ross Vicksells still plays the fool....No wonder he is in 
   love with   Cole and his garbage...  

   Obviously we all know who my message refers to except you..

   Proves your disibilities also... Sounds like Prozac at work

   How  many a day... 

    By the way, have you read DR Pipers letter of which I posted a copy here?

    Or is it to much to stand....
 


Article 20001 of alt.revisionism:
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Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: hoch der CODOH
Message-ID: 
From: choover@usd.edu (Christopher J Hoover )
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 1994 17:14:01 GMT
Sender: news@sunfish.usd.edu
References:  <1994Dec8.120309.2051@ubmail.ubalt.edu> 
 <3ccr6u$gdl@ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> 
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codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) writes:

>Fritz Berg took a friend of mine and I to a meeting of the NYC chapter of
>the Von Steuben Society, a nationwide German social/cultural club, a
>couple of months ago, though neither my friend or I are of German descent. 
>EVERY German-American there was a Holocaust doubter. 

>It's my impression that a lot of German/Americans have  doubts about 
>the Holocaust story, but they don't want to get into trouble by saying 
>anything about it.  They simply want to lead normal lives.

How very odd.  Here in the Dakotas, where German is the second most common
first language (after English, of course), nothing could be farther from
the truth.  As a matter of fact, when the subject of the Holocaust _has_
come up among my German-Russian relatives, the tenor of the discussion has
been one of greatest sympathy for the experience of Jews in the Holocaust. 
Our distant cousins who stayed behind in Russia were persecuted by both
Czarist and Bolshevik regimes, and were mostly shoved into cattle cars in
1941 by Stalin's thugs and carted off to Siberia (it was _assumed_ that
they would betray Russia, doncha know), but at least most of them lived to
tell the tale.  Consequently, that so many European Jews did _not_ live to
tell _their_ tale is particularly poignant to us. 

This is not to paint too pretty a picture.  Like most eastern European 
cultures, Schwartzmeerdeutsch and Wolgadeutsch culture have their share 
of antisemitic tradition.  But perhaps our own ancestors' persecution in 
Russia has taught us something, or maybe we're far enough removed from 
the fatherland that we don't get all defensive when it's pointed out that 
some of our cultural cousins did some very evil things in this century.

In any event, suffice it to say that this "Von Steuben Society" doesn't
speak for all German-Americans--not by a long shot, and not in this part
of the country.  As a matter of fact, I had never heard of them before I
read Mr. Vicksell's post.  Maybe when my wife and I finally get down to
Lincoln, Nebraska to research our familys' histories at the AHSGR's
archive [American Historical Society for Germans from Russia, of which my
wife's mother was a proud member], I'll ask them if they'd heard of it. 

In the mean time, Mr. Vicksell, perhaps you can fill us in a little on
this Society and its mission.  As I am an American of partial German
descent, I'm sure you can understand my curiousity.  I'm also curious who
"Von Steuben" was.  Pardon my skepticism, but I just have a feeling that
this might be a group that is _specifically_ oriented towards Holocaust
denial, which cannot be said of most mainstream German cultural societies
in this country.  We might do well to remember that the German-American
Bund also sought to present themselves as a "nationwide German
social/cultural club" of sorts (admittedly, with predominant political
overtones), and they were, shall we say, less than objective on certain
matters. 



Chris
--
Christopher J. Hoover    choover@usd.edu       University of South Dakota
Disclaimer:  standard    It's *always* September, *somewhere* on the Net.


Article 20013 of alt.revisionism:
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: DR Pipers response to Coles lying video
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
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Date: Wed, 14 Dec 1994 01:08:17 GMT
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martev (martev@gate.net) wrote:


: On Wed, 7 Dec 1994, BRADLEY R. SMITH wrote:

: > Will you please send me the version of Piper's reply that you posted here by e
: > email?
: > Thanks.
: > 
:      It was NOT a version, if was an accurate copy..of the original.

Why don't you post it again, so we all have a good laugh?

                Ross Vicksell



Article 20023 of alt.revisionism:
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: hoch der CODOH
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
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References:  <1994Dec8.120309.2051@ubmail.ubalt.edu> <3ccr6u$gdl@ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>  <3cdaul$odi@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> <3cg53q$33v@ixnews1.ix.netcom.com> 
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 1994 00:12:20 GMT
Lines: 44

(Ignore my previous abortive attempt.)

Annie Alpert (anny@ix.netcom.com) wrote:

: I was more specifically referring to statements made by German officials
: like Konrad Adenauer after the war.  The German people had more than :
adequate opportunity to claim the Holocaust was a hoax when the entire :
affair was fresh in their minds. 

Most emphatically not true.  Adenauer and the the rest of the German
officials were not merely non-Nazis, they were anti-Nazis.  And they were
pretty much a puppet government; they did what the occupation government
told them to do or else.  Witness what happened when Adenhauer complained
about Germany paying "reparations" to Israel and the "survivors."  He was
ordered to do it and it was done, to the tune of 100 billion Deutschmarks
over the years. And any German who dared to publicly express doubts about
the Holocaust story was also asking for big trouble from the occupation
government. 

If anything, despite the anti-revisionist laws on the books now, Germans 
are probably freer to express revisionists views now than they were 
then.

             Ross Vicksell

: -- 
: * * * * * * * * * 
: Annie Alpert
: "Those who deny freedom for others deserve it not for themselves."
:                                    Abraham Lincoln
: I'm also on PRODIGY at GMHV19A@PRODIGY.COM



---- End Forwarded Message



-- 
* * * * * * * * * 
Annie Alpert
"Those who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves."
                                   Abraham Lincoln
I'm also on PRODIGY at GMHV19A@PRODIGY.COM


Article 20037 of alt.revisionism:
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From: martev 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: DR Pipers response to Coles lying video
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 1994 14:19:41 -0500 (EST)
Lines: 35
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On Wed, 14 Dec 1994, Ross Vicksell wrote:

> martev (martev@gate.net) wrote:
> 
> 
> : On Wed, 7 Dec 1994, BRADLEY R. SMITH wrote:
> 
> : > Will you please send me the version of Piper's reply that you posted here by e
> : > email?
> : > Thanks.
> : > 
> :      It was NOT a version, if was an accurate copy..of the original.
> 
> Why don't you post it again, so we all have a good laugh?
> 
>                 Ross Vicksell
> 
   OK, here's your chance.. Read my posting from H Mazal who will send 
you a full copy of it...

Or is it too much trouble to read the truth about little David playing 
games with truth, as so many of you do...??

Of course you will laugh, all fools do when they are shown
 up to be the sickies they are.. 

Laugh your fool head of, pyoik!

You wouldn't know the truth if your own family showed you.. 

BTW, is that were you learned to hate so much, as a child?




Article 20043 of alt.revisionism:
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Ditlieb Felderer Jailed in Sweden
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References:  
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 1994 23:21:36 GMT
Lines: 13

Ross Vicksell (codfish@netcom.com) wrote:
: Those of you who wish to contribute to Ditlieb Felderer's legal costs can
: do so by sending a check to Ernst Zuendel.  Make it out to Ernst and write
: on it "for Felderer Defence Fund." 

: Send it to:

:               Ernst Zuendel
:               206 Carleton St.
:               Toronto, Ontario 
:               Canada M5A 1L1

Oops!  The correct postal code is M5A 2l1.


Article 20071 of alt.revisionism:
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: hoch der CODOH
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References:  <1994Dec8.120309.2051@ubmail.ubalt.edu> <3ccr6u$gdl@ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>  <3cdaul$odi@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> <3cg53q$33v@ixnews1.ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 1994 06:02:54 GMT
Lines: 44

Annie Alpert (anny@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: In <3cdaul$odi@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes: 

: >
: >Ross Vicksell  wrote:
: ># I wrote:
: ## I think it's important to note that the German government and the 
: >## vast majority of the German people do not deny the Holocaust either.
: >
: An Ross replied:
: ># Could it have anything to do with the fact the it's against the law 
: to ># publicly express doubts about the Holocaust story over there?
: >
: and:
: ># Fritz Berg took a friend of mine and I to a meeting of the NYC 
: chapter of
: ># the Von Steuben Society, a nationwide German social/cultural club, a
: ># couple of months ago, 
: ># though neither my friend or I are of German descent. 
: ># EVERY German-American there was a Holocaust doubter. 
: >

: I was more specifically referring to statements made by German officials 
: like Konrad Adenauer after the war.  The German people had more than 
: adequate opportunity to claim the Holocaust was a hoax when the entire 
: affair was fresh in their minds.

: In addition, I was raised in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, the home of one of 
: the largest German-American communities in the US.  My dear old Grandma 
: (a native of Mauthen, Austria) took my dad to German-American Bund  
: meetings before the war.  I never at any time in my life ever heard of 
: the concept of Holocaust denial until about 5 years ago when I joined 
: Prodigy.  In fact, come to think of it, I never heard of anti-Semitism, 
: either.  I had to look the word up in the dictionary when I first heard 
: of it in the 1970's.  It wasn't part of my life.



: -- 
: * * * * * * * * * 
: Annie Alpert
: "Those who deny freedom for others deserve it not for themselves."
:                                    Abraham Lincoln
: I'm also on PRODIGY at GMHV19A@PRODIGY.COM


Article 20100 of alt.revisionism:
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Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Things are seldom what they seem
Message-ID: <1994Dec13.180215.35788@miavx1>
From: bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu (Raskolnikov)
Date: 13 Dec 94 18:02:15 -0500
References:  <3c5em1$lt1@sol.sun.csd.unb.ca>   
 
Organization: Miami University
Lines: 31

In article , codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) writes:
> Danny Keren (dzk@cs.brown.edu) wrote:
> : Ross Vicksell  wrote:
> 
> : believes otherwise, he can try and prove it here.
> 
> We've already touched on some of Felderer's findings here.  Like the 
> brothel for inmate use, which your side insisted, not very convincingly, 
> was NOT for inmate use.

I believe that the big bruhaha about a brothel at Auschwitz 
was that you cited _testimony_  as evidence for such a place.

If you have other evidence for a brothel at Auschwitz besides
testimony, please present it.  Otherwise, let's move on since
Greg Raven has emphatically stated that testimony is not evidence.

> Felderer's wife is Filipino.  In fact, this helped gain him entry to 
> the Auschwitz archives, because Piper et.al. thought she was Vietnamese!  
> Not your typical racist.  Plus which Felderer is totally apolitical - 
> not your typical Nazi.

Well, his writings about the 'anal complex of the Jews' are
antisemitic, plain and siple.  I don't care who he's married to.

-- 
=======================================================================
Brian Harmon         "We are most unfair to God: we do not allow
Miami University	   	him to sin.." 
Oxford, Ohio 45056  			-- Friedrich Nietzsche
--------------bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu--------------------------


Article 20155 of alt.revisionism:
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From: BRADLEY R. SMITH 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: hoch der CODOH
Date: Fri, 16 DEC 94 22:57:39 -0500
Organization: Delphi (info@delphi.com email, 800-695-4005 voice)
Lines: 23
Message-ID: 
References:  <1994Dec8.120309.2051@ubmail.ubalt.edu> <3ccr6u$gdl@ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>  <3cioc7$nhs@ixnews1.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bos1d.delphi.com
X-To: Annie Alpert 

Annie Alpert  writes:
 
>I know quite a few German-Americans...many of them in my own family and 
>have never once heard a single German American person express doubts 
>about the Holocaust.  Perhaps we run in different circles.
 
Almost certainly you do run in circles that are different from those a
revisionist would find herself in. It sounds like you grew up in "normal"
German American
American enviornment. There is almost no convincing reasons for "normals" to
buy into revisionist theory, no matter what their ethnic background. It's
too dangerous socially, and for "germans" doubly so. I was 50 years old before
I ever heard there were people who doubted the Holocaust story, and when
I did hear it I took it for granted I was listening to either a neurotic
or an antisemite. In the event, while the individual turned out to be a
little neurotic, he wasn't antisemitic.
 
It's simply too costly for costly for indivudal citizens to questions any of
of the Holocaust stories, as you can observe by the tone of those who write on
this board. Ordinary people don't want to bother with having to bear up under
it.
.
-- Bradley


Article 20156 of alt.revisionism:
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From: anny@ix.netcom.com (Annie Alpert)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: DR Pipers response to Coles lying video
Date: 18 Dec 1994 15:50:29 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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Distribution: world
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In  codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) 
writes: 

>
>martev (martev@gate.net) wrote:
>
>
>: On Wed, 7 Dec 1994, BRADLEY R. SMITH wrote:
>
>: > Will you please send me the version of Piper's reply that you 
posted here by e
>: > email?
>: > Thanks.
>: > 
>:      It was NOT a version, if was an accurate copy..of the original.
>
>Why don't you post it again, so we all have a good laugh?
>

Here is the text of a letter written by Dr. Piper to the Autrailian 
paper On Target.  It was in response to the claims published in On 
Target as well as JHR, Spotlight, Phoenix Liberator and other 
publications. It is presented as written, misspellings and all.  As far 
as I know this letter was never published by On Target.

"In connections with your 'Brief comment' published in your magazine in 
which my name has been mentioned I demand to publish the following 
statement:

"1. I never told to anybody the gas chamber, which now is shown in 
Auschwitz Museum in Poland had been 'reconstructed after the war.'

"2. The gas chamber in question is housed in the building which has been
existed from prewar times.

"3. Because another gas chamber in the second part of Auschwitz 
concentration camp / in Birkenau / were built in 1942, 1943 gas chamber 
mentioned above was adapted by the Nazis in 1944 to an air shelter. 
Between other the several walls were built inside in order to divide the 
large space in smaller rooms and the openings in the ceiling - the 
poison gas cyclon B was discharged in through them - were walled up. 
After the war in order to restore the previous
appearance these walls were removed and the openings uncovered.

"4. The fact is that the Nazi murdereres used gas chambers /in Birkenau-
Brzezinka you can see the ruins of the other 5 gas chambers/ for mass
annihilation of innocent men, women and children. It is obvious fact for
everybody who would like to approach the problem, to contact living 
still witnesses and to study historical sources.

"I have devoted 28 years of my life to save the memory of the countless
victims of the Nazi barbarity to warn people against indifference to all 
forms of racial, religious and national hatred, which lead to injustice, 
sufferings and killing of innocent people. Because of it I take the fact 
my name is used for disseminating such kind of lies and hiding of the 
obvious truth without any attempt to verify the facts as a lack of 
honesty and dignity.

"I demand to reveal the source of your 'information.'"

signed "Franciszek Piper."
END LETTER
-- 
* * * * * * * * * 
Annie Alpert
"Those who deny freedom for others deserve it not for themselves."
                                   Abraham Lincoln
I'm also on PRODIGY at GMHV19A@PRODIGY.COM


Article 20163 of alt.revisionism:
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: German occupation of Europe
Message-ID: 
Keywords: occupation France
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 1994 01:32:38 GMT
Lines: 19

Recently Ken McVay posted an article that indicated that Europe was a 
basket case after the war, and that the primary cause of this was the way 
Germany had been systematically stripping the occupied countries of 
everything they could get their hands on, including food.

I asked Hans Schmidt. the head of the German American Political Action 
Committee (GANPAC) about this.  He told me the following:


Regarding this matter I have only to comment that according to "the" 
official report of 1945 by the U.S. Army, the economic situation in 
France immediately after the "liberation" was better than that of England 
at the same time.  And there was no question that it was GERMANY that was 
really stolen empty and bled by the victors---twice.

In the unlikelyhood that any of you request to see a citation from 
the U.S. Army, I will try to get same from Hans.

           Ross Vicksell


Article 20165 of alt.revisionism:
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: What James Bacque found in the Soviet Archives
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I thought it would be nice to inject something relatively new into the
Other Losses discussion.  This is a letter by James Bacque, author of
Othe Losses.  It appeared in The Times Literary Supplement of August 20,
1993.

Sir,-It is every writer's delight to be attacked in a famous journal by a
confused critic, so my thanks go to John Keegan for airing his views on my
work in the TLS on July 23.

Mr Keegan has been misled by the editors of the book, "Eisenhower and the
German POWs: Facts against falsehood," which he cites to refute me.  The
principal editor, Stephen E.  Ambrose, clearly does not know what he
thinks from day to day, because he has varied wildly from strong approval
of my book, "Other Losses," to snarling slanders of me personally,
together with buffoonish misrepresentations of American army policies. 
Having kindly read my manuscript, he wrote to me as follows: "I am not
arguing with the basic truth of your discovery...you have the goods on
these guys, you have the quotes from those who were present and saw with
their own eyes, you have the broad outline of a truth so terrible I really
can't bear it...you really have made a major historical discovery..." It
appears from the latest Ambrose writings that, indeed, the truth was
something he could not bear.

The same might be said for his co-editor, Gunter Bischof, an Austrian. 
Keegan admires the "scholarship" of Bischof, but Bischof does not know a
displaced persons camp from a prison camp.  He chastises me for stating
that there was a US Army prison camp at Ebensee in Austria: he says that
the camp was for DPs.  In fact, I have photocopies of General Mark Clark's
secret report about the condition of prisoners of war in the camp, plus US
Army medical reports of prisoners in the camp, plus eyewitness accounts of
the catastrophe among dozens of thousands of prisoners, including the
manuscript of a diary kept by the priest Franz Loidl who ministered to the
dying.  This manuscript is on deposit in the Church History Institute of
the Catholic Theological Faculty, University of Vienna.

In the same book so admired by Keegan is a gross error made by Rudiger
Overmanns, who does not even know the number of prisoners taken by the
Americans.  This was not 3.8 million as he says, but over 6 million,
according to US Army records in Suitland, Maryland.  Of course, this
error, conveniently for Ambrose and Keegan, apparently diminishes the 
number of lives for which the Americans were responsible.

Underlying the Ambrose-Bischof book is a series on German prisoners edited
by Erich Maschke.  Underlying that series is no important documentation
from the US Army archives in Washington.  The author of the book on the
American camps casually omits all the significant records that survived
the paper purges of the late 1940s.  However, for an expert judgment on
the condition of American camps Mr Keegan may rely on the words of an
American Lieutenant-Colonel who was in charge of the camps in France in
1945.  In a report preserved at Fort Leavenworth, Kansas,
Lieutenant-Colonel Henry W.  Allard wrote that "the standards of PW camps
in the Com Z in Europe compare as only slightly better or even with the
living conditions of the Japanese PW camps our men tell us about, and
unfavourably with those of the Germans".  Let us remember that after the
war, the Americans executed Japanese for precisely the crimes referred to
by Allard. 

Mr Keegan does not accept the definition of the term "Other Losses" given
me by Colonel Philip S.  Lauben.  He is unaware of the US Army report
discovered by Richard Boylan, a senior archivist at the US National
Archives, which confirms Lauben.  The report plainly states that the
"Other Loses" category of prisoners meant deaths and escapes.  And
finally, of course, 1,700,000 Germans, plus hundreds of thousands of other
Europeans, are still missing from their families.  This astounding fact is
normally neglected by the Western apologists, unless they can also use it
to hammer the Soviets, saying they all died in the Gulag.  But now that
the Soviets are gone, their archives are open and the truth at last
emerges. 

That truth is simple.  The Soviets took some 4.1 million prisoners of war
east and west, of whom some 600,000 died in slavery.  Of the total take,
some 2.4 million were Germans.  Of these, some 450,600 died, the rest were
sent home.  Subtracting the 450,600 dead Germans from the missing 1.7
million, we see that some 1.25 million are still not accounted for.  Of
these, probably 100,000 - 200,000 died in Polish, Yugoslavian and other
camps.  The number remaining is very nearly the number I said in "Other
Losses" of those who died among all Europeans taken prisoner in the West.

I wonder if Mr Keegan will consult the Soviet records before attacking
them? The surprising thing about the Soviet records is that they are
extensive, detailed, accurate and incriminating.  For instance, on the
subject of prisoners of war, these archives display a dossier for each
prisoner, complete with capture records, biographical information,
legal,labour and medical history, including X-ray photographs, and so on. 
The average is about fifteen pages per person.  The dossier of Nobel prize
winner Konrad Lorenz, the Austrian zoologist contains two hundred pages
about him and his work.  No such records exist anywhere in the West.  In
months of work in the archives of the West, I was never able to find the
dossier for a single one of the 9 or so million prisoners held.  Not one. 
But in the first hour in the NKVD/KGB archives, I found the archival boxes
containing over 4 million personal dossiers.  I was allowed to walk up and
down the aisles, and take down and photocopy any box I chose at random,
and did so.  I have scores of photocopies of those records here in
Toronto, and Mr Keegan is welcome to consult them.  Or he may wish to
visit Moscow.  He will find interesting information beginning with the
story of the Japanese prisoners.  The Japanese authorities have long since
determined that some 62,000 of their prisoners, chiefly in the Kwantung
Army, died in the Gulag.  The Soviets lied to the Japanese government for
years about the number of deaths, first saying 3,800 had died, then about
4,000, then around 35,000.  Finally, the Soviet archives were opened, and
mirabile dictu, the death certificates were all there, totalling very
nearly 62,000. 

Do I hear Keegan protesting that Japan is not Germany? On his visit to
Moscow, he may see for himself the Soviet records showing that the
prisoners of various nationalities were often mixed together in the same
camp, so that Japanese were enslaved beside Germans, were all treated the
same way, and died in approximately the same ratio of much the same
causes.  Letters to me from individual prisoners and records at the Hoover
Institution in Stanford all show independently of the Soviet archives that
this was the case in more than thirty major camps. 

Let me also remind Keegan that the Poles long accused the Soviets of
massacring some 14,000 officers at Katyn, but that the Soviet archives
reveal that the true total was around 21,000.  If John Keegan and his
friends wish to attack the authenticity of the Soviet archives, they are
going to have to show that the fragmentary documents in the Western
archives, airy with lacunae and poxed with evasions, are superior to these
tremendous archives which incriminate its masters for a horrifying crime
against humanity.  What will they say then? That the Soviets are hiding
something?

              JAMES BACQUE
              422 Heath St. E.  
              Toronto, Ontario






Article 20171 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!kmcvay
From: kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay)
Subject: Re: German occupation of Europe
References: 
Organization: The Old Frog's Almanac
Keywords: occupation France
Message-ID: <1994Dec21.103810.17879@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 94 10:38:10 GMT

In article  codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) writes:

>Recently Ken McVay posted an article that indicated that Europe was a 
>basket case after the war, and that the primary cause of this was the way 
>Germany had been systematically stripping the occupied countries of 
>everything they could get their hands on, including food.

Correct. The information came directly from the IMT testimony, and
was not refuted (or denied) by any of the defendants.

>I asked Hans Schmidt. the head of the German American Political Action 
>Committee (GANPAC) about this.  He told me the following:

>Regarding this matter I have only to comment that according to "the" 
>official report of 1945 by the U.S. Army, the economic situation in 
>France immediately after the "liberation" was better than that of England 
>at the same time.  And there was no question that it was GERMANY that was 
>really stolen empty and bled by the victors---twice.

It is interesting that Mr. Schmidt fails to address the rape of
Denmark, Belgium, France, Holland, and Norway, as outlined during
the French presentation at Nuremberg. It is also interesting to note
that the French case relied heavily (some say almost exclusively)
upon _German_ documents, and that Mr. Schmidt fails to provide
refutation for even a _single_ one of those documents. Whether the
French situation was better than the English situation isn't
remotely relevant - the German documents entered into evidence by
the French prosecution team _are_ relevant, because they outline, in
precise fashion, exactly how the Nazis raped Europe, leaving it
incapable of either feeding itself, or, as the Tusas pointed out, a
defeated Germany.

By the time the war in Europe ended, Hitler had already "stolen
Germany empty." 

>In the unlikelyhood that any of you request to see a citation from 
>the U.S. Army, I will try to get same from Hans.

I request it, but I think I'd rather see someone obtain it directly
from the National Archives, or the United States Department of
Defense, rather than trust a "revisionist scholar" to produce an
accurate, in context, copy.

For those who missed the article to which Mr. Vicksell refers, I
offer it again:

Archive/File: holocaust/germany/nuremberg west.001
Last-Modified: 1994/12/04

   During their discussion of the French presentation of the case
   relating to Crimes Against Humanity in Western Europe, the Tusas
   included the following material. (In light of discussions about
   Bacque's "Other Losses," and conditions in Europe immediately
   following the surrender of Germany, I feel it is important to
   understand the situation clearly. knm)

   "More than any other case, theirs [the French] was based on
   documents. It was reckoned that of the 2,100 finally submitted to
   the court during the prosecution case, 800 had been introduced by
   the French. The onslaught of their documents was inexorable. Nearly
   all of them were German - unanswerable. Backing them, providing the
   statistics of Nazi crime, were the national reporters from each of
   the countries for whom France spoke.

   The facts and figures of the economic spoilation of Europe told of
   theft and destruction almost beyond imagining - the more so because
   each report warned that the scale of pillage and havoc had been so
   great that it was still not possible to estimate the final totals.
   Some of the figures were difficult to grasp and they certainly made
   little impact on many in court or in the Press. For instance, it
   needed a degree of financial knowledge and understanding of each
   country's economy to absorb such figures as those for financial
   seizures over and above what was legally permitted for occupation
   costs; in Denmark, the illegal seizures had been 8,000 million
   crowns, in Belgium 130,000 million Belgian francs. It helped when
   such figures were put into perspective: in France, the maximum sum
   which Germany could legally demand for the maintenance of her army
   of occupation was 74,000 million francs; yet the final French
   payment had come to 745,000 million, ten times larger. It was hard
   to picture information such as that the Germans had requisitioned
   without payment 70 million crowns worth of Danish agricultural
   produce each month or seized 1,100 million guilders worth of
   machinery and oil as they left Holland. The specific was easier to
   envisage: from Norway alone the Nazis had taken 30,000 tons of
   meat, 61,000 tons of dairy produce, 26,000 tons of fish, 68,000
   tons of fruit and vegatables, 112,000 tons of fats, 300,000 tons of
   hay and straw, 13,000 tons of soap; in Holland they seized 600,000
   hogs, 275,000 cows, 489 locomotives, 28,950 freight cars, and even
   1 million bicycles and 600,000 radio sets.

   As the torrent of statistics poured out, the mind tended to block
   off. Yet those who stopped to reflect realized what these figures
   had finally added up to. As J. Emlyn Williams, of the 'Christian
   Science Monitor' put it, this part of the French case explained why
   Europe was now in 'such a gigantic mess. It was not simply the
   result of the war but also the manner in which the Germans waged
   it, leaving those people they overran without means for their own
   recovery at the war's end and therefore of supplying help to the
   defeated Germans themselves.'<26> Bombing and fighting by both
   sides had done much to destroy Europe. But pillage by the Germans
   alone also wrought a terrible destruction and left a legacy of
   poverty and hunger."(Tusa, 190-1)

   <26> The Christian Science Monitor, 24 January.

                           Work Cited

   Tusa, Ann & John.  The Nuremberg Trial.  Birmingham, Alabama: The
   Notable Trials Library, Division of Gryphon Editions, Inc., 1990


-- 

"However, it is sophistry to proclaim that something must have happened a
certain way because your `reason' demands it." (Greg Raven, Institute for
Historical Review)


Article 20172 of alt.revisionism:
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Conditions in postwar France
Message-ID: 
Keywords: France Occupation
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Recently Ken Mcvay posted an article indicating that German occupied
Europe was a basket case after the war and that this was largely due to
how the Germans had systematicaly looted these countries.  I asked
well-known revisionist Hans Schmidt about this.  His reply: 

Regarding this matter I have only to comment that according to "the" 
official report of 1945 by the U.S. Army, the economic situation in 
France immediately after the "liberation" was better than that of England
at the same time. And there is no question that it was GERMANY that was 
really stolen empty and bled dry by the victors---twice. 

If there is enough demand for it, I will attempt to get hold of the 
relevant passage from the document Hans is talking about.

                         Ross Vicksell


Article 20177 of alt.revisionism:
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From: jeff_brown@pol.com (Jeffrey G. Brown)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: German occupation of Europe
Date: 19 Dec 1994 03:38:41 GMT
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In article , codfish@netcom.com (Ross
Vicksell) wrote:

> Recently Ken McVay posted an article that indicated that Europe was a 
> basket case after the war, and that the primary cause of this was the way 
> Germany had been systematically stripping the occupied countries of 
> everything they could get their hands on, including food.
> 
> I asked Hans Schmidt. the head of the German American Political Action 
> Committee (GANPAC) about this.  He told me the following:
> 
> 
> Regarding this matter I have only to comment that according to "the" 
> official report of 1945 by the U.S. Army, the economic situation in 
> France immediately after the "liberation" was better than that of England 
> at the same time.

I'd love to see documentation of this (primary sources, please -- Hans
Schmidt doesn't fall into this category). It should also be interesting to
see your documentation of the implied equation "France = Europe".


JGB

=====================================================================
Jeffrey G. Brown                                   jeff_brown@pol.com
 "What's going to happen?"   "Something wonderful..."   -- '2010'


Article 20178 of alt.revisionism:
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From: karlpov@access4.digex.net (Charles R.L. Power)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Conditions in postwar France
Date: 18 Dec 1994 23:08:32 -0500
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Keywords: France Occupation

codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) writes:

>Regarding this matter I have only to comment that according to "the" 
>official report of 1945 by the U.S. Army, the economic situation in 
>France immediately after the "liberation" was better than that of England
>at the same time. And there is no question that it was GERMANY that was 
>really stolen empty and bled dry by the victors---twice. 

As I wrote recently on another newsgroup, it's remarkable how the 
revisionists who wish to deny the sufferings of the Jews will go to any 
length to bleat about the sufferings of the Germans.

As to the unsupported allegation above, even if we accept it, it says 
very little useful, since we don't know (or I don't, offhand) the state 
of the English economy at the time.  And if France was doing relatively 
well, that doesn't mean that the rest of Europe was.  As to Germany, it 
was responsible for wasting the whole continent's resources in its war 
*and* genocide efforts.


Article 20180 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What James Bacque found in the Soviet Archives
Date: 19 Dec 1994 03:40:04 -0500
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In article , codfish@netcom.com (Ross
Vicksell) writes:

Thanks much for finding and posting the TLS letter from Bacque responding
to criticisms of Other Losses coming from Ambrose and others.  I have
stated, and continue to believe, that Ambrose's major problem with
Bacque's work is its indictment of Eisenhower, an apple-pie American
figure whose life is coincidentally Ambrose's professional specialty in
the field of history.  Attack a man's hero and be cursed.  Attack his hero
and meal ticket at the same time and you better run for cover. 

Eisenhower's culpability or lack of it is of minor import compared to the
rest of the subject matter.  Bacque's letter adds further detail to
Ambrose's comments in his critical review of the book in which he stated
that Bacque had highlighted a matter of great historical importance by
uncovering the mistreatment of post-war German prisoners.


Article 20182 of alt.revisionism:
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From: gdansk@mcs.com (Andrzej Borowiec)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: German occupation of Europe
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 1994 03:51:43 -0600
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In article , codfish@netcom.com (Ross
Vicksell) wrote:

> I asked Hans Schmidt. the head of the German American Political Action 
> Committee (GANPAC) about this.  He told me the following:
> 
> 
> Regarding this matter I have only to comment that according to "the" 
> official report of 1945 by the U.S. Army, the economic situation in 
> France immediately after the "liberation" was better than that of England 

As yo put the 'liberation' in quotes it can only mean France after it was
"liberated" by the Germans in 1940, I presume?

> at the same time.  And there was no question that it was GERMANY that was 
> really stolen empty and bled by the victors---twice.

Twice? Was there another Marshall Plan I don't know about?

> 
> In the unlikelyhood that any of you request to see a citation from 
> the U.S. Army, I will try to get same from Hans.

Yes, please. But somehow I would prefer citations from U.S. Army, not from Hans.

Andrzej Borowiec


Article 20184 of alt.revisionism:
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From: Keith Morrison 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: RE: What James Bacque found in the Soviet Archives
Date: 19 DEC 94 06:12:28 AST
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In article  codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) writes:
>I thought it would be nice to inject something relatively new into the
>Other Losses discussion.  This is a letter by James Bacque, author of
>Othe Losses.  It appeared in The Times Literary Supplement of August 20,
>1993.
>
[from Bacque's letter]
>The same might be said for his co-editor, Gunter Bischof, an Austrian.
>Keegan admires the "scholarship" of Bischof, but Bischof does not know a
>displaced persons camp from a prison camp.
>.

Really?  You'd think he would.  After all, his _father_ was a POW
captured by the Americans...who lived well after the war.

--
Keith Morrison
t08o@unb.ca

"Facts?  We don't need no stinking facts!  We've got RANdom
 capITALIzaTIon and good speling and grammar, too."



Article 20241 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: German occupation of Europe
Date: 19 Dec 1994 06:47:25 GMT
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References: 
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Keywords: occupation France

Ross Vicksell  wrote:

# Recently Ken McVay posted an article that indicated that Europe was a 
# basket case after the war, and that the primary cause of this was the way 
# Germany had been systematically stripping the occupied countries of 
# everything they could get their hands on, including food.

Not only food, but people - who were rounded up and sent to Germany
as slave labor force. 

Frank, Governor of Nazi occupied Poland, in an interview, October 
3, 1939
[Nazi Conspiracy and Aggression - Washington, U.S Govt. Print. 
Off., 1946, Vol. II, p. 632]
------------------------------------------------------------------
Poland can only be administered by utilizing the country through
means of ruthless exploitation, deportation of all supplies, raw
materials, machines, factory installations etc., which are
important for the German war economy, availability of all workers
for work within Germany, reduction of the entire Polish economy
to absolute minimum necessary for bare existence of the population,
closing of all educational institutions, especially technical
schools and colleges in order to prevent the growth of a new
Polish intelligentsia. Poland shall be treated as a colony. the
Poles shall be the slaves of the Greater German World Empire.
 


The literature abounds with documentation of how the Nazis looted
occupied countries, not only of "raw supplies" but works of art, etc.

# Regarding this matter I have only to comment that according to "the" 
# official report of 1945 by the U.S. Army, the economic situation in 
# France immediately after the "liberation" was better than that of England 
# at the same time.  

Could be true. However, what the hell does this prove? England was 
after a terrible war, in which it suffered a great deal. Surely its
economic situation wasn't that good. France, on the other hand,
hardly participated in the war.


-Danny Keren.


Article 20254 of alt.revisionism:
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: "MIDDLE GERMANY" REFERENCES
Message-ID: 
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The Atlantic Charter talked piously about the self-determination of
peoples.  What a lot of bullshit!  Did they ever ask the 14,000,000
Germans in the Sundetenland, East Prussia, Silesia, and Pomerania, who had
had been there for centuries, what country they wanted to belong to?  Hell
no, they just dispossessed them, expelled them, and murdered a couple of
million in the bargain. 

              Ross Vicksell


Article 20257 of alt.revisionism:
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: James Bacque visits Soviet archiv
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
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I thought it would be nice to inject something relatively new into the
Other Losses discussion.  This is a letter by James Bacque, author of
Othe Losses.  It appeared in The Times Literary Supplement of August 20,
1993.

Sir,-It is every writer's delight to be attacked in a famous journal by a
confused critic, so my thanks go to John Keegan for airing his views on my
work in the TLS on July 23.

Mr Keegan has been misled by the editors of the book, "Eisenhower and the
German POWs: Facts against falsehood," which he cites to refute me.  The
principal editor, Stephen E.  Ambrose, clearly does not know what he
thinks from day to day, because he has varied wildly from strong approval
of my book, "Other Losses," to snarling slanders of me personally,
together with buffoonish misrepresentations of American army policies. 
Having kindly read my manuscript, he wrote to me as follows: "I am not
arguing with the basic truth of your discovery...you have the goods on
these guys, you have the quotes from those who were present and saw with
their own eyes, you have the broad outline of a truth so terrible I really
can't bear it...you really have made a major historical discovery..." It
appears from the latest Ambrose writings that, indeed, the truth was
something he could not bear.

The same might be said for his co-editor, Gunter Bischof, an Austrian. 
Keegan admires the "scholarship" of Bischof, but Bischof does not know a
displaced persons camp from a prison camp.  He chastises me for stating
that there was a US Army prison camp at Ebensee in Austria: he says that
the camp was for DPs.  In fact, I have photocopies of General Mark Clark's
secret report about the condition of prisoners of war in the camp, plus US
Army medical reports of prisoners in the camp, plus eyewitness accounts of
the catastrophe among dozens of thousands of prisoners, including the
manuscript of a diary kept by the priest Franz Loidl who ministered to the
dying.  This manuscript is on deposit in the Church History Institute of
the Catholic Theological Faculty, University of Vienna.

In the same book so admired by Keegan is a gross error made by Rudiger
Overmanns, who does not even know the number of prisoners taken by the
Americans.  This was not 3.8 million as he says, but over 6 million,
according to US Army records in Suitland, Maryland.  Of course, this
error, conveniently for Ambrose and Keegan, apparently diminishes the 
number of lives for which the Americans were responsible.

Underlying the Ambrose-Bischof book is a series on German prisoners edited
by Erich Maschke.  Underlying that series is no important documentation
from the US Army archives in Washington.  The author of the book on the
American camps casually omits all the significant records that survived
the paper purges of the late 1940s.  However, for an expert judgment on
the condition of American camps Mr Keegan may rely on the words of an
American Lieutenant-Colonel who was in charge of the camps in France in
1945.  In a report preserved at Fort Leavenworth, Kansas,
Lieutenant-Colonel Henry W.  Allard wrote that "the standards of PW camps
in the Com Z in Europe compare as only slightly better or even with the
living conditions of the Japanese PW camps our men tell us about, and
unfavourably with those of the Germans".  Let us remember that after the
war, the Americans executed Japanese for precisely the crimes referred to
by Allard. 

Mr Keegan does not accept the definition of the term "Other Losses" given
me by Colonel Philip S.  Lauben.  He is unaware of the US Army report
discovered by Richard Boylan, a senior archivist at the US National
Archives, which confirms Lauben.  The report plainly states that the
"Other Loses" category of prisoners meant deaths and escapes.  And
finally, of course, 1,700,000 Germans, plus hundreds of thousands of other
Europeans, are still missing from their families.  This astounding fact is
normally neglected by the Western apologists, unless they can also use it
to hammer the Soviets, saying they all died in the Gulag.  But now that
the Soviets are gone, their archives are open and the truth at last
emerges. 

That truth is simple.  The Soviets took some 4.1 million prisoners of war
east and west, of whom some 600,000 died in slavery.  Of the total take,
some 2.4 million were Germans.  Of these, some 450,600 died, the rest were
sent home.  Subtracting the 450,600 dead Germans from the missing 1.7
million, we see that some 1.25 million are still not accounted for.  Of
these, probably 100,000 - 200,000 died in Polish, Yugoslavian and other
camps.  The number remaining is very nearly the number I said in "Other
Losses" of those who died among all Europeans taken prisoner in the West.

I wonder if Mr Keegan will consult the Soviet records before attacking
them? The surprising thing about the Soviet records is that they are
extensive, detailed, accurate and incriminating.  For instance, on the
subject of prisoners of war, these archives display a dossier for each
prisoner, complete with capture records, biographical information,
legal,labour and medical history, including X-ray photographs, and so on. 
The average is about fifteen pages per person.  The dossier of Nobel prize
winner Konrad Lorenz, the Austrian zoologist contains two hundred pages
about him and his work.  No such records exist anywhere in the West.  In
months of work in the archives of the West, I was never able to find the
dossier for a single one of the 9 or so million prisoners held.  Not one. 
But in the first hour in the NKVD/KGB archives, I found the archival boxes
containing over 4 million personal dossiers.  I was allowed to walk up and
down the aisles, and take down and photocopy any box I chose at random,
and did so.  I have scores of photocopies of those records here in
Toronto, and Mr Keegan is welcome to consult them.  Or he may wish to
visit Moscow.  He will find interesting information beginning with the
story of the Japanese prisoners.  The Japanese authorities have long since
determined that some 62,000 of their prisoners, chiefly in the Kwantung
Army, died in the Gulag.  The Soviets lied to the Japanese government for
years about the number of deaths, first saying 3,800 had died, then about
4,000, then around 35,000.  Finally, the Soviet archives were opened, and
mirabile dictu, the death certificates were all there, totalling very
nearly 62,000. 

Do I hear Keegan protesting that Japan is not Germany? On his visit to
Moscow, he may see for himself the Soviet records showing that the
prisoners of various nationalities were often mixed together in the same
camp, so that Japanese were enslaved beside Germans, were all treated the
same way, and died in approximately the same ratio of much the same
causes.  Letters to me from individual prisoners and records at the Hoover
Institution in Stanford all show independently of the Soviet archives that
this was the case in more than thirty major camps. 

Let me also remind Keegan that the Poles long accused the Soviets of
massacring some 14,000 officers at Katyn, but that the Soviet archives
reveal that the true total was around 21,000.  If John Keegan and his
friends wish to attack the authenticity of the Soviet archives, they are
going to have to show that the fragmentary documents in the Western
archives, airy with lacunae and poxed with evasions, are superior to these
tremendous archives which incriminate its masters for a horrifying crime
against humanity.  What will they say then? That the Soviets are hiding
something?

              JAMES BACQUE
              422 Heath St. E.  
              Toronto, Ontario



Article 20271 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: David Irving replies to Lucy Dawidowicz
Date: 20 Dec 1994 12:03 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
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News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

(Michael P. Stein) writes at the end of his reply to Irving's essay...
>If unauthorized liquidations - murders, let's not mince words -
>were going on, what would one _expect_ to happen if the big cheese found
>out about it and disapproved?  _I_ would expect someone to be given a very
>stern talking to and sent to bed without dinner, at the very least.  Has
>Irving found any record of such an event? 

    If the liquidations were happening without the Central Commands'
    knowledge and authorization, then why would Himmler note in a
    particular case:

>>        Judentransport aus Berlin. (Jew trasnport from Berlin)
>>        Keine Liquidierung.  (No liquidation)

    Seems fairly obvious to me that you only note "no liquidation" if there
    is a fairly standard practice of liquidating.  My application of Occam's
    Razor would indicate this to be the proper interpretation of Himmler's
    statement.

    Or stated another way: this is a textbook example of how the exception
    proves the rule.

===========================================================================
daniel david mittleman     -     danny@arizona.edu     -     (602) 621-2932


Article 20281 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: David Irving replies to Lucy Dawidowicz
Date: 20 Dec 1994 10:06:24 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
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In article ,
Ross Vicksell  wrote:
>
>This is David Irving's reply to a posting Brian Harmon made.
>
>[...]
>Lucy Dawidowicz writes, "The gist of the telephone message was entered in 
>four short lines in the log, though Mr. Irving cited only the last two 
>lines."  In fact I published the whole page of Himmler's entries for 
>November 30, 1941 as a facsimile document in every edition of this book.  

    But only _cited_ the last two lines in the argument.


>Those four lines read in full:
>
>        Verhaftung Dr. Jakelius
>        Angebl. Sohn Molotov.
>        Judentransport aus Berlin.
>        Keine Liquidierung.
>
>Literally translated as:"Arrest [=noun] Dr Jakelius.
>Alleg[ed] son of Molotov.
>Jew transport from Berlin.
>No liquidation."

>From these few words Lucy D. constructed this fable (and I quote her 1981
>book and the tripe on Internet): "The last two lines now make sense. 
>Himmler called Heydrich to instruct him that a certain Dr.  Jekelius,
>presumed to be the Soviet Foreign Minister's son, was to taken in custody
>by the security police.  Jekelius could be located in a transport of Jews
>from Berlin, and unlike the rest of the transport, was not to be
>liquidated." &c. &c.  Sources offered never a line, except her own 
>fantasy. 

    It is an _interpretation_.  So is Irving's argument about the meaning 
of the last two lines.


>I refuted this absurd theory in the updated version of my Hitler's War, 
>published by Avon Books (N.Y. in 1990 and available in every bookstore in 
>the United States even today, flattering Dawidowicz (whom I 
>chivalrously did not name) on page 19 of my Introduction with these words:
>
>"Perplexed bt Himmler's hand-written note about a call to Heydrich 
>after visiting Hitler's bunker on November 30, 1941 - "Arrest [of] Dr 
>Jakelius.  Alleged son Molotov.  Consignment [Transport] of Jews from 
>Berlin.  No liquidation." - these wizards of modern history scoffed that 
>probably Molotov's son was believed to be aboard a trainload of Jews from 
>Berlin concealed as "Dr Jakelius' and was on no account to be 
>liquidated.  In fact Molotov had no son;

    Utterly irrelevant.  What, then, is the meaning of just the second
line, "Alleged son of Molotov?"  It does not matter that Molotov had no
son; what matters is whether Hitler and Himmler _thought_ Molotov had a
son.  One can have an _erroneous_ belief as a motive for an action.  If I
shoot David Irving in the belief that he is a space alien, the fact that
he is _not_ a space alien can hardly be used to prove that I didn't shoot
him.

>Dr Jakelius was a Viennese neurologist involved in the Euthanasia 
>program;

    Irrelevant.  What matters is not who he was, but who Hitler or Himmler
_thought_ he was.  Was he on the transport or not?  Does Irving know?

    If the line about Jakelius is completely independent of the following
lines, what on earth could it mean?  Why was Jakelius arrested, or to be
arrested, if he was not believed to be Molotov's son?  Has Irving found
any record of Jakelius's arrest or pursuit, since presumably he was _not_
on the transport of Jews from Berlin?  (I say this not only because by
Irving's account this line is completely independent from the following
lines, but more importantly if he was part of the euthanasia program, it
is hard to believe that the Nazis would have employed a Jew in such a
sensitive undertaking.)


>and the consignment 
>of Jews from Berlin had that morning arrived in Riga and had already 
>been liquidated by the local SS commander by the time that Himmler 
>scribbled down Hitler's injunction."

    Irrelevant.  What matters is not whether the liquidation had already 
happened; what matters is whether Hitler _knew_ the liquidation had 
already happened at the time he gave Himmler the order.

    But let's suppose Irving's fantasy - for if Dawidowicz's
interpretation is that, so is Irving's; presumably he is not psychic and
has no special knowledge that she lacks in interpreting the four lines -
is true.  If unauthorized liquidations - murders, let's not mince words -
were going on, what would one _expect_ to happen if the big cheese found
out about it and disapproved?  _I_ would expect someone to be given a very
stern talking to and sent to bed without dinner, at the very least.  Has
Irving found any record of such an event? 
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


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From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: David Irving replies to Lucy Dawidowicz
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 1994 17:54:12 -0500
Organization: University of Michigan
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   <20DEC199412034956@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
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Let's keep in mind, guys, that Irving now denies everything that he quoted
from the later edition of his book.  He's now decided that not only was
that one shipment of Jews not liquidated, but that there never _was_ an
attempt to liquidate the Jews.  The whole "keine Liquidierung" argument
arose in the _first_ edition of Hitler's War, and back then Irving was
still arguing that the Final Solution did take place, but without the
knowledge of der Fuehrer.

The obvious question is, if he now thinks that there never was any
liquidation going on, what was that telephone log entry expressly saying
"no liquidation" all about?  How does he reconcile his admission that the
trainload "had already been liquidated" with his position that there was
never a policy of liquidation?

Presumably Mr. Irving has some good rationalizations for his belief that
a few hundred thousand Jews were "liquidated" but that millions were not.
I'd be interested to hear that reasoning -- as I understand it, he
expounded ever-so-briefly in the latest edition of Hitler's War, but has
never written a comprehensive explanation of the analysis that led him
to that conclusion.
-- 
 Jamie McCarthy   Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu   AppleLink: j.mccarthy
 "The Jewish people will be exterminated...it's in our program."  - Himmler
 "Until you find a reference to gas chambers, you can forget about long,
  drawn-out discussions of Himmler's speeches."                     - Raven


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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: David Irving replies to Lucy Dawidowicz
Date: 20 Dec 1994 21:18:16 GMT
Organization: Brown University
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From codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) 

# This is David Irving's reply to a posting Brian Harmon made.

[Following text preceded by "#" is from Irving]

# "Perplexed bt Himmler's hand-written note about a call to Heydrich 
# after visiting Hitler's bunker on November 30, 1941 - "Arrest [of] Dr 
# Jakelius.  Alleged son Molotov.  Consignment [Transport] of Jews from 
# Berlin. No liquidation." - these wizards of modern history scoffed 
# that probably Molotov's son was believed to be aboard a trainload 
# of Jews from Berlin concealed as "Dr Jakelius' and was on no 
# account to be liquidated.  In fact Molotov had no son; 

Perhaps true, but irrelevant. Some Nazi thought that maybe 
Molotov's son was on the train, and ordered not to kill him (and 
only him). It's written there, and Irving quotes it: "Alleged son 
Molotov". What counts is what Himmler (and Hitler) thought at the
time. I think this is rather clear.

# Dr Jakelius was a Viennese 
# neurologist involved in the Euthanasia program; 

Oh, so Irving admits there was a Euthanasia program? Can he tell
us by what means the victims of that program were killed?

# and the consignment 
# of Jews from Berlin had that morning arrived in Riga and had already 
# been liquidated by the local SS commander by the time that Himmler 
# scribbled down Hitler's injunction."

Why were they liquidated?

# The gypsies were not to be liquidated either: yet they 
# were, in large numbers.

Why were they liquidated? 

# jury found differently and awarded him 40,000 Pounds damages. We 
# appealed the verdict to House of Lords, unsuccessfully. 

Ok, so finally we have confirmation on this. Thanks for saving
the trouble for chasing this information about Irving. 


-Danny Keren.



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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: "Denier Logic" (was: Re: Squirming?  Hardly.)
Date: 19 Dec 1994 20:53:36 GMT
Organization: Brown University
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Just a little example of "denier logic".

Griswold and Vicksell both claimed that testicles of some
Nazi prisoners were crushed by their Allied captors. They
didn't present any evidence, but both believe it's true.

Now, what would happen if someone would post that the Nazis
did such a thing - crush the testicles of prisoners they held?

How would a Holocaust denier answer?

1) He would joke about it, like Vicksell joked about the
   Auschwitz crematoriums, like "Doyal" joked about the gas
   chambers, etc.

2) He would say that this is a cruel and sado-masochistic myth
   invented to defame the German people.

3) He would require physical evidence. He would demand that
   these crushed testicles be presented, and that a proof be 
   presented that a Nazi was responsible.

Why the double standard?

In short, can Vicksell and Griswold supply physical proof to
their claim? Obviously, no. If so, why do they accept it? What
is their criterion for accepting something as truth?


-Danny Keren.



Article 20290 of alt.revisionism:
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: German rape  of France
Message-ID: 
Keywords: France
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 1994 00:05:38 GMT
Lines: 21

Recently Ken McVay posted an article that indicated that Europe was a 
basket case after the war, and that the primary cause of this was the way 
Germany had been systematically stripping the occupied countries of 
everything they could get their hands on, including food.

I asked Hans Schmidt. the head of the German American Political Action 
Committee (GANPAC) about this.  He told me the following:

Regarding this matter I have only to comment that according to "the" 
official report of 1945 by the U.S. Army, the economic situation in 
France immediately after the "liberation" was better than that of England 
at the same time.  And there was no question that it was GERMANY that was 
really stolen empty and bled dry by the victors---twice.

In the unlikelyhood that any of you request to see a citation from 
the U.S. Army report, I will try to get same from Hans.

           Ross Vicksell





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From: schultz@garnet.berkeley.edu (Richard Schultz)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: David Irving replies to Lucy Dawidowicz
Date: 21 Dec 1994 01:15:44 GMT
Organization: Philosophers of the Dangerous Maybe
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In article ,
Jamie McCarthy  wrote:

>Presumably Mr. Irving has some good rationalizations for his belief that
>a few hundred thousand Jews were "liquidated" but that millions were not.
>I'd be interested to hear that reasoning -- as I understand it, he
>expounded ever-so-briefly in the latest edition of Hitler's War, but has
>never written a comprehensive explanation of the analysis that led him
>to that conclusion.

Hey Jamie, Wayne McGuire has already told us how smart Irving is, i.e.
his (Irving's) reasoning powers are far beyond the ken of us poor 
mortals.  And McGuire ought to know -- he went to Harvard, after all.
So even if Irving told you his reasoning, I doubt that you or I would
understand it, and I mean that quite seriously.
--
				Richard Schultz

"It is terrible to die of thirst in the ocean.  Do you have to salt your
truth so heavily that it does not even quench thirst any more?"


Article 20292 of alt.revisionism:
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: James Bacque visits Soviet archive
Message-ID: 
Keywords: Bacque
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
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I thought it would be nice to inject something relatively new into the
Other Losses discussion.  This is a letter by James Bacque, author of
Othe Losses.  It appeared in The Times Literary Supplement of August 20,
1993.

Sir,-It is every writer's delight to be attacked in a famous journal by a
confused critic, so my thanks go to John Keegan for airing his views on my
work in the TLS on July 23.

Mr Keegan has been misled by the editors of the book, "Eisenhower and the
German POWs: Facts against falsehood," which he cites to refute me.  The
principal editor, Stephen E.  Ambrose, clearly does not know what he
thinks from day to day, because he has varied wildly from strong approval
of my book, "Other Losses," to snarling slanders of me personally,
together with buffoonish misrepresentations of American army policies. 
Having kindly read my manuscript, he wrote to me as follows: "I am not
arguing with the basic truth of your discovery...you have the goods on
these guys, you have the quotes from those who were present and saw with
their own eyes, you have the broad outline of a truth so terrible I really
can't bear it...you really have made a major historical discovery..." It
appears from the latest Ambrose writings that, indeed, the truth was
something he could not bear.

The same might be said for his co-editor, Gunter Bischof, an Austrian. 
Keegan admires the "scholarship" of Bischof, but Bischof does not know a
displaced persons camp from a prison camp.  He chastises me for stating
that there was a US Army prison camp at Ebensee in Austria: he says that
the camp was for DPs.  In fact, I have photocopies of General Mark Clark's
secret report about the condition of prisoners of war in the camp, plus US
Army medical reports of prisoners in the camp, plus eyewitness accounts of
the catastrophe among dozens of thousands of prisoners, including the
manuscript of a diary kept by the priest Franz Loidl who ministered to the
dying.  This manuscript is on deposit in the Church History Institute of
the Catholic Theological Faculty, University of Vienna.

In the same book so admired by Keegan is a gross error made by Rudiger
Overmanns, who does not even know the number of prisoners taken by the
Americans.  This was not 3.8 million as he says, but over 6 million,
according to US Army records in Suitland, Maryland.  Of course, this
error, conveniently for Ambrose and Keegan, apparently diminishes the 
number of lives for which the Americans were responsible.

Underlying the Ambrose-Bischof book is a series on German prisoners edited
by Erich Maschke.  Underlying that series is no important documentation
from the US Army archives in Washington.  The author of the book on the
American camps casually omits all the significant records that survived
the paper purges of the late 1940s.  However, for an expert judgment on
the condition of American camps Mr Keegan may rely on the words of an
American Lieutenant-Colonel who was in charge of the camps in France in
1945.  In a report preserved at Fort Leavenworth, Kansas,
Lieutenant-Colonel Henry W.  Allard wrote that "the standards of PW camps
in the Com Z in Europe compare as only slightly better or even with the
living conditions of the Japanese PW camps our men tell us about, and
unfavourably with those of the Germans".  Let us remember that after the
war, the Americans executed Japanese for precisely the crimes referred to
by Allard. 

Mr Keegan does not accept the definition of the term "Other Losses" given
me by Colonel Philip S.  Lauben.  He is unaware of the US Army report
discovered by Richard Boylan, a senior archivist at the US National
Archives, which confirms Lauben.  The report plainly states that the
"Other Loses" category of prisoners meant deaths and escapes.  And
finally, of course, 1,700,000 Germans, plus hundreds of thousands of other
Europeans, are still missing from their families.  This astounding fact is
normally neglected by the Western apologists, unless they can also use it
to hammer the Soviets, saying they all died in the Gulag.  But now that
the Soviets are gone, their archives are open and the truth at last
emerges. 

That truth is simple.  The Soviets took some 4.1 million prisoners of war
east and west, of whom some 600,000 died in slavery.  Of the total take,
some 2.4 million were Germans.  Of these, some 450,600 died, the rest were
sent home.  Subtracting the 450,600 dead Germans from the missing 1.7
million, we see that some 1.25 million are still not accounted for.  Of
these, probably 100,000 - 200,000 died in Polish, Yugoslavian and other
camps.  The number remaining is very nearly the number I said in "Other
Losses" of those who died among all Europeans taken prisoner in the West.

I wonder if Mr Keegan will consult the Soviet records before attacking
them? The surprising thing about the Soviet records is that they are
extensive, detailed, accurate and incriminating.  For instance, on the
subject of prisoners of war, these archives display a dossier for each
prisoner, complete with capture records, biographical information,
legal,labour and medical history, including X-ray photographs, and so on. 
The average is about fifteen pages per person.  The dossier of Nobel prize
winner Konrad Lorenz, the Austrian zoologist contains two hundred pages
about him and his work.  No such records exist anywhere in the West.  In
months of work in the archives of the West, I was never able to find the
dossier for a single one of the 9 or so million prisoners held.  Not one. 
But in the first hour in the NKVD/KGB archives, I found the archival boxes
containing over 4 million personal dossiers.  I was allowed to walk up and
down the aisles, and take down and photocopy any box I chose at random,
and did so.  I have scores of photocopies of those records here in
Toronto, and Mr Keegan is welcome to consult them.  Or he may wish to
visit Moscow.  He will find interesting information beginning with the
story of the Japanese prisoners.  The Japanese authorities have long since
determined that some 62,000 of their prisoners, chiefly in the Kwantung
Army, died in the Gulag.  The Soviets lied to the Japanese government for
years about the number of deaths, first saying 3,800 had died, then about
4,000, then around 35,000.  Finally, the Soviet archives were opened, and
mirabile dictu, the death certificates were all there, totalling very
nearly 62,000. 

Do I hear Keegan protesting that Japan is not Germany? On his visit to
Moscow, he may see for himself the Soviet records showing that the
prisoners of various nationalities were often mixed together in the same
camp, so that Japanese were enslaved beside Germans, were all treated the
same way, and died in approximately the same ratio of much the same
causes.  Letters to me from individual prisoners and records at the Hoover
Institution in Stanford all show independently of the Soviet archives that
this was the case in more than thirty major camps. 

Let me also remind Keegan that the Poles long accused the Soviets of
massacring some 14,000 officers at Katyn, but that the Soviet archives
reveal that the true total was around 21,000.  If John Keegan and his
friends wish to attack the authenticity of the Soviet archives, they are
going to have to show that the fragmentary documents in the Western
archives, airy with lacunae and poxed with evasions, are superior to these
tremendous archives which incriminate its masters for a horrifying crime
against humanity.  What will they say then? That the Soviets are hiding
something?

              JAMES BACQUE
              422 Heath St. E.  
              Toronto, Ontario





Article 20314 of alt.revisionism:
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: David Irving replies to Lucy Dawidowicz
Message-ID: 
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This is David Irving's reply to a posting Brian Harmon made.

________________________________________________________________

The quotations used against me are taken from pp. 34-38 of the book The
Holocaust and the Historians by Lucy Dawidowicz (1981). They are also
contained in a handy pamphlet published more recently, evidently late in
1993, and peddled by the ADL entitled David Irving's Hitler: A Faulty
History Dissected.  Dawidowitz (and those aping her) accuse me of editing 
aa transcript of a Heinrich Himmler phone conversation of November
30,1941-as though it were the only evidence I adduced in my 860pp  
biography, Hitler's War (The Viking Press, 1075; Hodder and Stoughton,
London, 1977;  updated: Focal Point, London, 1991). 

First let me brag a bit: until I took the trouble of transcribing that 
entire file of Himmler's hand-written notes on his daily phone 
conversations, nobody else had ever bothered to do so - not even the 
biggest names in Holocaust historiography - even though it had been 
available since the late 1950s on National Archives microfilm No. T84, 
roll 26.  I used the original file in the Bundesarchiv (The German Federal 
Archives, from which - hey, Internet historians, what d'you think about 
this! - I have been formally banned since Juy 1, 1993, although they hold 
half a ton of records deposited by me including Himmler's 1935 and 1939 
diaries and the Eichmann typescripts.).

Lucy Dawidowicz writes, "The gist of the telephone message was entered in 
four short lines in the log, though Mr. Irving cited only the last two 
lines."  In fact I published the whole page of Himmler's entries for 
November 30, 1941 as a facsimile document in every edition of this book.  
Those four lines read in full:

        Verhaftung Dr. Jakelius
        Angebl. Sohn Molotov.
        Judentransport aus Berlin.
        Keine Liquidierung.

Literally translated as:"Arrest [=noun] Dr Jakelius.
Alleg[ed] son of Molotov.
Jew transport from Berlin.
No liquidation."

From these few words Lucy D. constructed this fable (and I quote her 1981
book and the tripe on Internet): "The last two lines now make sense. 
Himmler called Heydrich to instruct him that a certain Dr.  Jekelius,
presumed to be the Soviet Foreign Minister's son, was to taken in custody
by the security police.  Jekelius could be located in a transport of Jews
from Berlin, and unlike the rest of the transport, was not to be
liquidated." &c. &c.  Sources offered never a line, except her own 
fantasy. 

I refuted this absurd theory in the updated version of my Hitler's War, 
published by Avon Books (N.Y. in 1990 and available in every bookstore in 
the United States even today, flattering Dawidowicz (whom I 
chivalrously did not name) on page 19 of my Introduction with these words:

"Perplexed bt Himmler's hand-written note about a call to Heydrich 
after visiting Hitler's bunker on November 30, 1941 - "Arrest [of] Dr 
Jakelius.  Alleged son Molotov.  Consignment [Transport] of Jews from 
Berlin.  No liquidation." - these wizards of modern history scoffed that 
probably Molotov's son was believed to be aboard a trainload of Jews from 
Berlin concealed as "Dr Jakelius' and was on no account to be 
liquidated.  In fact Molotov had no son; Dr Jakelius was a Viennese 
neurologist involved in the Euthanasia program; and the consignment 
of Jews from Berlin had that morning arrived in Riga and had already 
been liquidated by the local SS commander by the time that Himmler 
scribbled down Hitler's injunction."

Let the record also show that Dawidowicz and the ADL's hired hacks, who 
appear to have trouble even reading Himmler's (old-German) handwriting, 
have ignored (or are ignorant of) a further entry in Himmler's telephone 
log, recording another call to Heydrich on April 20, 1942, after visiting 
Hitler yet again (it was of course Hitler's Birthday): "Keine Vernichtung 
der Zigeuner."  The gypsies were not to be liquidated either: yet they 
were, in large numbers.

                  * * *

I see the Internet controversy also mentions my best-selling work The
Destruction of Dresden (London & Boston, 1963).  Since that book appeared
other documents have become available; I alredy published a letter
summarising two of these in The Times in London in 1966; this modified
the estimates I had given of the death-roll.  More documents, particularly
from Ultra (intercept) sources have also emerged, and I have incorporated
these in a revised edition of the book entitled Apocalype which is to
appear next year (I was going to call it Holocaust but I understand that
the word has been hijacked by other vested interests). 

It is totally untrue that my book Accident:The Death of General Sikorsko 
prompted any legal action, apart from a libel writ which I myself issued 
against Carlos Thompson, the late deranged husband of actress Lili Palmer.

It is true that my book The Destruction of Convoy PQ.17 attracted a libel
suit by one Royal Navy officer against my respected publisher Cassell & Co
and myself in 1970; having studied the then secret documents which I had
used in writing the book, both Cassell's insurer's and my barrister
concluded that I had written the truth and not libelled the captain.  A
jury found differently and awarded him 40,000 Pounds damages.  We appealed
the verdict to House of Lords, unsuccessfully.  In the intervening quarter
century nobody has sued me, although I have written thirty books.  Not
many newspapers can boast such a record. 

______________________________________________________________________

If you have any questions you would like to ask Mr. Irving directly, you
can reach him at the David Irving Legal Fighting Fund, PO Box 1707, Key
West, FL 33041-1707.  All letters will be answered. 



Article 20331 of alt.revisionism:
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From: hmazal@aol.com (HMazal)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: David Cole
Date: 20 Dec 1994 01:50:26 -0500
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Reply-To: hmazal@aol.com (HMazal)

If, Mr. Vicksell, you have seen the holes, then the gas chambers existed.
QED

Oh, yes, try and get a copy of file 17/9 from the Russian Central State
Archive. If you like blueprints, you will love this information.

Harry W. Mazal in San Antonio, Texas


Article 20349 of alt.revisionism:
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Greg's Back! (was Re: Seven Questions)
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
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References: <3cqhpl$6qg@sol.sun.csd.unb.ca>  <19DEC94.08960465.0073@UNBVM1.CSD.UNB.CA>  <3d9hvf$jo5@nyx10.cs.du.edu>
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 1994 05:13:13 GMT
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I thought this was supposed to be a joint search for Historical Truth.  
Instead it seems to be some kind of private feud between you and Greg 
Raven.  Why don't you fill us in on what you're talking about?

               Ross Vicksell


Article 20361 of alt.revisionism:
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Revisionist answers
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Richard Schultz (schultz@garnet.berkeley.edu) wrote:
: In article ,
: Greg Raven  wrote:

: >Not only has Leuchter worked for years as an engineer, not only does he
: >have patents in his name and numerous designs, but he has NOT been exposed
: >as a liar. Every forensic test at Auschwitz or Birkenau since the Leuchter
: >Report verifies his findings.

: Leuchter claimed that he had been a consultant to various prisons 
: regarding their technoloy for executions.  The management of those
: prisons denied that he had ever been a consultant for them.  That
: means that he was lying.  What part of this do you not understand?

: In Massachusetts, in order to call yourself an engineer, you need a
: certificate that says you are an engineer.  Leuchter claimed that
: he was an engineer, but had no certificate.  That makes him a liar.
: What part of this do you not understand?

: That you do not understand is clear, because you continue to post
: the same lies over and over as if you haven't seen the refutations.
: Clearly, you are operating under some definition of "lie" with
: which I am unfamiliar.

: >FALSE. You post and repost and repost yet again testimonies and other
: >irrelevant effluvia. If millions were gassed, there MUST be more evidence
: >than post-war "testimonies" from people who cannot even lie straight.

: You have been asked this question numerous times, although I have
: not seen an answer.  The claim is frequently made that Hoess's
: testimony was obtained under duress.  What evidence do you have that
: Hoess was tortured?
: --
: 				Richard Schultz

: "It is terrible to die of thirst in the ocean.  Do you have to salt your
: truth so heavily that it does not even quench thirst any more?"


Article 20363 of alt.revisionism:
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From: pankiewicz@sun1000.ci.pwr.wroc.pl (Jerzy Pankiewicz)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: German occupation of Europe
Date: 22 Dec 1994 11:39:32 +0100
Organization: Technical Univeristy of Wroclaw
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Ross Vicksell (codfish@netcom.com) wrote:
: basket case after the war, and that the primary cause of this was the way 
: Germany had been systematically stripping the occupied countries of 
: everything they could get their hands on, including food.


: Regarding this matter I have only to comment that according to "the" 
: official report of 1945 by the U.S. Army, the economic situation in 
: France immediately after the "liberation" was better than that of England 
: at the same time.  And there was no question that it was GERMANY that was 
: really stolen empty and bled by the victors---twice.

Germany destroyed a big part of Poland, especially the Polish capital
Warsaw. Caused death of almost 6 000 000 of Polish citizens,
50% of them Jewish , and made milions of Poles suffer ilnesses
like tuberculosis, mental ilnesses.
The situation of the Western Europe was generally better. However
the comparison of GB and France is cynical. Great Britain
was the only fighting Western European country for almost five years.
Continuous German bombers and V-1, V-2 attacks, reconstruction
of the industry for the war , Western front - all had to be paid
after the war. 
Unfortunately the 'expert' omitted the murder of thousands
of Jews from France. 

Poor GERMANY ! It had to invide Poland in 1939, France and many
other countries. It didn't anything wrong, just was hungry,
had to eat human flesh and to drink blood. How to criticize
a vampire that it acts as a vampire.
                     Jerzy Pankiewicz


Article 20366 of alt.revisionism:
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From: cendbj@clust.hw.ac.uk (David Johnston)
Subject: Re: Conditions in postwar France
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References:  
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 1994 10:07:00 GMT

In article  codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) writes:

>Recently Ken Mcvay posted an article indicating that German occupied
>Europe was a basket case after the war and that this was largely due to
>how the Germans had systematicaly looted these countries.  I asked
>well-known revisionist Hans Schmidt about this.  His reply: 

>Regarding this matter I have only to comment that according to "the" 
>official report of 1945 by the U.S. Army, the economic situation in 
>France immediately after the "liberation" was better than that of England
>at the same time. And there is no question that it was GERMANY that was 
>really stolen empty and bled dry by the victors---twice. 

>If there is enough demand for it, I will attempt to get hold of the 
>relevant passage from the document Hans is talking about.

>                         Ross Vicksell

I would certainly like to see this. I can actually believe that the economic 
situation in the UK (it's the UK or Britain, not England. The United Kingdom 
also includes Scotland, Wales and N. Ireland. Calling it England is rather 
like calling the whole of North America the USA) was worse than that in 
France, depending on your viewpoint. The French economy before the war was 
largely agrarian, whereas the British economy was, for the time, highly 
industrialised. Britain lost a lot of industry to bombing, but, more 
importantly, had to turn to borrowing huge amounts of money from others 
(mainly the USA) to finance massive arms production. This arms production 
obviously had an effect on production of other goods. France was not in 
the war long enough to have to do this.

In short, WW2 almost broke Britain. So yes, I can believe that France had less 
debt, less industry destroyed (they had less to start with), and by those 
criteria was in better shape than the UK. 

However, the fact that France may have been in better shape than the UK does 
not seem to me to disprove that Europe was "a basket case" after the war. For 
different reasons to the rest of Europe Britain was also in a very bad way. 
As an example, I don't know if you realise that rationing lasted well into the 
fifties in Britain.

David Johnston
Heriot-Watt University
Edinburgh


Article 20386 of alt.revisionism:
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: pow
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References: 
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 1994 19:27:32 GMT
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If you Eisenhower apologists out there want to argue with Bacque, why not 
write to him?

His address is:

             James Bacque
             422 Heath St. E.
             Toronto  Ontario
             Canada M4G 1B5

       


Article 20390 of alt.revisionism:
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: German Rape of France
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Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
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Recently Ken McVay posted an article that indicated that Europe was a 
basket case after the war, and that the primary cause of this was the way 
Germany had been systematically stripping the occupied countries of 
everything they could get their hands on, including food.

I asked Hans Schmidt. the head of the German American Political Action 
Committee (GANPAC) about this.  He told me the following:


Regarding this matter I have only to comment that according to "the" 
official report of 1945 by the U.S. Army, the economic situation in 
France immediately after the "liberation" was better than that of England 
at the same time.  And there was no question that it was GERMANY that was 
really stolen empty and bled by the victors---twice.

In the unlikelyhood that any of you request to see a citation from 
the U.S. Army, I will try to get same from Hans.

           Ross Vicksell


Article 20402 of alt.revisionism:
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Nazi Terror in Poland
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
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A Polish revisisionist friend of mine, whose mother was a high school
teacher, was telling me how the Germans closed all the Polish secondary
schools and institutions of higher learning, thus adding thousands of
unemployed teachers to the ranks of the resistance. 

I must admit the Germans did do some pretty dumb things.  Even Hans 
Schmidt was shaking his head about how poorly they managed the occupied 
territories, especially in Eastern Europe.

              Ross Vicksell


Article 20408 of alt.revisionism:
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From: anny@ix.netcom.com (Annie Alpert)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: hoch der CODOH
Date: 24 Dec 1994 16:03:20 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 69
Distribution: world
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References:  <1994Dec8.120309.2051@ubmail.ubalt.edu> <3ccr6u$gdl@ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>  <3cioc7$nhs@ixnews1.ix.netcom.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: ix-nwk4-04.ix.netcom.com

In  BRADLEY R. SMITH  
writes: 

>
>Annie Alpert  writes:
> 
>>I know quite a few German-Americans...many of them in my own family 
and 
>>have never once heard a single German American person express doubts 
>>about the Holocaust.  Perhaps we run in different circles.
> 
>Almost certainly you do run in circles that are different from those a
>revisionist would find herself in. It sounds like you grew up in 
"normal"
>German American
>American enviornment. There is almost no convincing reasons for 
"normals" to
>buy into revisionist theory, no matter what their ethnic background. 
It's
>too dangerous socially, and for "germans" doubly so. I was 50 years old 
before
>I ever heard there were people who doubted the Holocaust story, and 
when
>I did hear it I took it for granted I was listening to either a 
neurotic
>or an antisemite. In the event, while the individual turned out to be a
>little neurotic, he wasn't antisemitic.
> 
>It's simply too costly for costly for indivudal citizens to questions 
any of
>of the Holocaust stories, as you can observe by the tone of those who 
write on
>this board. Ordinary people don't want to bother with having to bear up 
under
>it.
>.
>-- Bradley
>

Hi Bradley,

My personal opinion is that deniers are attracted to the 
Holocaust-is-a-myth theory specifically BECAUSE it is not the popular 
position.  There are some people who will determinedly march to a 
different drummer under any circumstances (I count myself under that 
banner, although I've mellowed considerably since I've had children )

I'm plowing my way through the tapes of the 1993 (or is it 1994) IHR 
conference and I'm struck by how similar the tone is to conversations I 
used to have with my old "counter-culture" pals in San Francisco (a 
'different-drummer' town if there ever was one!).  "When the revolution 
comes..." we used to say.  COmpare that to "When the Holohoax has been 
buried...".  A lot of wishin' and hopin' and dreamin'--but not a lot of 
sincere soul-searching.

Deniers NEED the Holocaust to hang their identities on.  With it they 
are 'tireless-truth-seekers' fighting the odds against an unfair and 
insincere society.  Without it, they are a bunch of random-access kooks 
without a windmill to tilt against.

Just my humble opinion, of course...

Best wishes, Annie
-- 
* * * * * * * * * 
Annie Alpert
"Those who do not remember the past will be forced to relive it"
                                   Georges Santanya
I'm also on PRODIGY at GMHV19A@PRODIGY.COM


Article 20422 of alt.revisionism:
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: James Bacque visits Soviet archive
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
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References: 
Date: Sun, 25 Dec 1994 07:03:14 GMT
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Still waiting for you Bacque bashers to say something.  And if you want 
to write Bacque, his address is:

             James Bacque
             422 Heath St. E.
             Toronto  Ontario
             Canada M4G 1B5

       




Article 20423 of alt.revisionism:
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Liberation of the Camps: Facts vs. Lies
Message-ID: 
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Date: Sun, 25 Dec 1994 07:10:37 GMT
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Chip Salzenberg (chip@cybernetics.net) wrote:
: According to greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven):
: >In article <3d9g1j$3fh@jabba.cybernetics.net>, chip@cybernetics.net (Chip
: >Salzenberg) wrote:
: >> According to greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven):
: >> >Dr. Larson [...] informed Wichita Eagle reporter Jan Floerchinger that
: >> >"never was a case of poison gas uncovered."
: >> 
: >> Of course not.  Those gassed were cremated.
: >
: >Very glib. Now, can you support that statement with any evidence?

: Not that would satisfy you, apparently.  I based my statement on the
: evidence already posted to alt.revisionism by Keren, Shein, and McVay,
: among others, and backed up by an Auschwitz survivor whom I know.

: You archivists:  Thank you.  Keep up the good work.

: You deniers:  

The laugh's on you.  Auschwitz is in Poland, not the Altreich.

: -- 
:               Chip Salzenberg, aka 
:   "Don't move!"  *BANG*  "You have the right to remain silent!"  *BANG!*
:     "Anything you say can and will be used against you!"  *SPLASH*
:                -- Tom Servo, MST3K: "High School Bigshot"


Article 20426 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mstein@access3.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: James Bacque visits Soviet archive
Date: 25 Dec 1994 12:15:43 -0500
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In article ,
Ross Vicksell  wrote:
>Still waiting for you Bacque bashers to say something.

    The part about Ambrose contradicting himself is just plain silly.  He 
changed his opinion based on later information.  What's so hard to 
understand about that?

    Unfortunately, there is a great deal of missing information in the 
letter which would be useful to have - e.g., the date of the report found 
by Boylan defining "other losses" as compared to the date the DEF status 
was put into use.

    I also note that the records of live Soviet prisoners does not tell us
anything about whether others were shot on the spot and never officially
taken prisoner.  This argument is exactly as specious as the one that
argues that since the Nazis kept official death records of registered
prisoners, they would not have killed people _not_ registered as prisoners
without making a record of it.

    Where does he get his figures for missing soldiers from?  On what 
does he base his glib assumption that one or two hundred thousand died in 
other eastern European camps, so that the numbers more or less work out?

    For these meatier issues, right now it's like nailing jelly to the
wall.  I have lots of questions, but until those are answered, I can't
give any kind of sensible response.  Maybe I'll make use of that address.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


Article 20427 of alt.revisionism:
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From: chip@cybernetics.net (Chip Salzenberg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Liberation of the Camps: Facts vs. Lies
Date: 25 Dec 1994 17:27:04 GMT
Organization: Creative Cybernetics, Inc.
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Message-ID: <3dka18$2vf@jabba.cybernetics.net>
References:   <3dct05$d00@jabba.cybernetics.net> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: server0.cybernetics.net

According to codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell):
>The laugh's on you.  Auschwitz is in Poland, not the Altreich.

Oops.  Quite right.  My mistake.

Take two: "Never was a case of poison gas uncovered" -- because the
mass gassings (as opposed to experiments and small-scale operations)
took place in areas that the American army didn't reach.

(I could believe that the same was true of Auschwitz, too.  It's
plausible that all gassed corpses were disposed of before the SS
fled.)
-- 
              Chip Salzenberg, aka 
  "Don't move!"  *BANG*  "You have the right to remain silent!"  *BANG!*
    "Anything you say can and will be used against you!"  *SPLASH*
               -- Tom Servo, MST3K: "High School Bigshot"


Article 20428 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mstein@access3.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Liberation of the Camps: Facts vs. Lies
Date: 25 Dec 1994 12:33:34 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
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Message-ID: <3dkade$4g3@access3.digex.net>
References:   <3dct05$d00@jabba.cybernetics.net> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access3.digex.net

In article ,
Ross Vicksell  wrote:
>Chip Salzenberg (chip@cybernetics.net) wrote:
>: According to greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven):
>: >In article <3d9g1j$3fh@jabba.cybernetics.net>, chip@cybernetics.net (Chip
>: >Salzenberg) wrote:
>: >> According to [Ted O'Keefe as posted by] greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg 
>: >>Raven):
>: >> >Dr. Larson [...] informed Wichita Eagle reporter Jan Floerchinger that
>: >> >"never was a case of poison gas uncovered."
>: >> 
>: >> Of course not.  Those gassed were cremated.
>: >
>: >Very glib. Now, can you support that statement with any evidence?
>
>: Not that would satisfy you, apparently.  I based my statement on the
>: evidence already posted to alt.revisionism by Keren, Shein, and McVay,
>: among others, and backed up by an Auschwitz survivor whom I know.
>
>: You archivists:  Thank you.  Keep up the good work.
>
>: You deniers:  
>
>The laugh's on you.  Auschwitz is in Poland, not the Altreich.

    The paragraph in question did not seem to be limited to the Altreich -
or at least I think that's the impression O'Keefe wanted to convey.  But
while the camps were running smoothly, as far as I know, _everyone_ (even
those who died of genuine natural causes) was cremated.  So Dr. Larson's
investigation of the corpses found at the end of the war really isn't
proof that nobody was gassed earlier, and investigation of corpses at
Dachau isn't proof that there were no gassings at Auschwitz.  I wonder if 
Dr. Larson found any shooting or hanging victims?  If he didn't, does 
this mean that nobody in any camp was ever shot or hung?

    Were there any credible eyewitness accounts of gassings at Dachau?  
Any confessions?  Such a lack, compared to Auschwitz, Treblinka, Sobibor, 
and Belzec, is much more significant than a pathologist's report on those 
who died only during the final days of the war.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


Article 20509 of alt.revisionism:
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From: simon1@bu.edu (Simon Streltsov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: James Bacque visits Soviet archive
Date: 26 Dec 1994 17:53:10 GMT
Organization: Boston University
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <3dmvu6$nnj@news.bu.edu>
References:   <3dk9bv$46o@access3.digex.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: acs4.bu.edu
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL0]

Michael P. Stein (mstein@access3.digex.net) wrote:

:     I also note that the records of live Soviet prisoners does not tell us
: anything about whether others were shot on the spot and never officially
: taken prisoner.  This argument is exactly as specious as the one that
: argues that since the Nazis kept official death records of registered
: prisoners, they would not have killed people _not_ registered as prisoners
: without making a record of it.

What should I read to get the numbers of people (Gemans,Japananese,
Jews) that were killed by Soviets?

Or maybe there is an online source?

(sorry, if I am repeating the questions that were already asked -
I am just lurking thru this group)


Simcha Streltsov, _Former_  Adar Rabbi of S.C.Soviet
-------------------------
please, only Kosher lePesach homentashen
all others will be returned unopened.

p.s. This sig expired, but nobody have sent me real
     homentashen anyway



Article 20519 of alt.revisionism:
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From: BRADLEY R. SMITH 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: hoch der CODOH
Date: Mon, 26 DEC 94 16:44:11 -0500
Organization: Delphi (info@delphi.com email, 800-695-4005 voice)
Lines: 28
Message-ID: 
References:  <1994Dec8.120309.2051@ubmail.ubalt.edu> <3ccr6u$gdl@ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>  <3cioc7$nhs@ixnews1.ix.netcom.com>  <3dhgo8$ng1@ixnews1.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bos1c.delphi.com
X-To: Annie Alpert 

Annie Alpert  writes:
 
>My personal opinion is that deniers are attracted to the 
>Holocaust-is-a-myth theory specifically BECAUSE it is not the popular 
>position.  There are some people who will determinedly march to a 
>different drummer under any circumstances (I count myself under that 
>banner, although I've mellowed considerably since I've had children )
 
I suppose there is something to this in many individual cases
 
>Deniers NEED the Holocaust to hang their identities on.  With it they 
>are 'tireless-truth-seekers' fighting the odds against an unfair and 
>insincere society.  Without it, they are a bunch of random-access kooks 
>without a windmill to tilt against.
 
I agree with the drift of what you're saying here and before. Here particularly.
But I see it being even truer for some (some) of those whose entire subjective
life is attached to the concept of unique German monstrosity. You can see a
great deal of it here in alt.revisionism but it is rampant in contemporary
American (and German from what I understand) culture.
 
In the end, forgetting the individual weaknesses of all of us on every side
of The Controversy, revisionist theory stands or falls on its published
eory. Our individual weaknesses are neither here nor ther
there. Thank God (to coin a phrase).
 
-- Bradley
 


Article 20520 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!juno.xana.bc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!vanbc.wimsey.com!news.mindlink.net!agate!darkstar.UCSC.EDU!news.hal.COM!decwrl!netcomsv!netcom.com!codfish
From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: alt.revisionism in New Book
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References:  <3dkcfs$j2v@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <3dkrio$dio@prime.mdata.fi>
Date: Mon, 26 Dec 1994 21:41:32 GMT
Lines: 9

Kari Nenonen (kauhunen@mits.mdata.fi) wrote:
: ... Don't try to confuse things here: these holocaust "revisionists" have
: nothing to do with science. NOTHING.

Who's doing all the forensic examination of gas chambers, crematoria,
aerial photos, etc. and getting into hot water for it?  Give you a hint -
It ain't Christopher Browning or Elie Wiesel.

                      Ross Vicksell


Article 20522 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!juno.xana.bc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!vanbc.wimsey.com!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!codfish
From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Who's a Jew?
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References: <3dktvt$lk@eis.calstate.edu> <3dmmr8$ge6@ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 26 Dec 1994 21:58:03 GMT
Lines: 25

Annie Alpert (anny@ix.netcom.com) wrote:

: Who the heck are all these "Jewish supporters" of the IHR?  I've been 
: following that group for a while now and the only person ho even comes 
: close to that description is Mark's pet pony, David Cole--who is, by his 

David is hardly Mark's "pet pony;" he's pretty much his own man.

: own definition an atheist form a family of non-practicing Jews.  In my 
: mind you are not Jewish if you do not practive Judaism, since it is a 

I know a lot of non-practicing Jews who still call themselves Jews.

: religion, not a race.  David Cole is not more Jewish than _I_ am--but I 
: concede that by Mark Weber's definition he may be considered Jewish...

: Still--who are 'all' these OTHER Jewish supporters?  Does anyone out 

Most of them are in the closet, just as are many other supporters of the 
IHR, only more so.  And when they come out - you just wait.

: there know of any? Smells like a baloney sandwich that's been out in the 
: California sun too long....IMO.

            Ross Vicksell


Article 20523 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!codfish
From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Internet Racism
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References: 
Date: Mon, 26 Dec 1994 22:19:31 GMT
Lines: 10

Harvey Goldberg (ae763@FreeNet.Carleton.CA) wrote:

: ...
: I work for the Canadian Human Rights Commission.  
: ...

These are the birds, I believe, who are trying to make life miserable for 
Doug Collins and John Ball out in BC.  Or do I have it all wrong, Ken?

                     Ross Vicksell


Article 20524 of alt.revisionism:
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From: schultz@garnet.berkeley.edu (Richard Schultz)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: alt.revisionism in New Book
Date: 26 Dec 1994 22:38:38 GMT
Organization: Philosophers of the Dangerous Maybe
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <3dngle$cl1@agate.berkeley.edu>
References:  <3dkcfs$j2v@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <3dkrio$dio@prime.mdata.fi> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: garnet.berkeley.edu

In article ,
Ross Vicksell  wrote:

>Who's doing all the forensic examination of gas chambers, crematoria,
>aerial photos, etc. and getting into hot water for it?  Give you a hint -
>It ain't Christopher Browning or Elie Wiesel.

Let me guess. . . could it be, by any chance, some pharmacist named
Pressac?
--
					Richard Schultz

"I seem to smell a peculiar and a fishlike smell."


Article 20525 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: alt.revisionism in New Book
Date: 26 Dec 1994 22:38:02 GMT
Organization: Brown University
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <3dngka$ori@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
References:  <3dkcfs$j2v@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <3dkrio$dio@prime.mdata.fi> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu

Ross Vicksell  wrote:

# Who's doing all the forensic examination of gas chambers, crematoria,

Forensic examinations at the Auschwitz crematoriums were made in
1945, and not by Holocaust deniers. No Holocaust denier has done
any worthwhile work about the Auschwitz crematoriums. Some other
people have.

# aerial photos, 

What aerial photos? I've seen Greg Raven make claims about Treblinka
based on aerial photographs. He admits these were taken a year
after the camp was dismantled... As for Auschwitz - one little
example: David Irving claimed (according to a speech of his
posted here) that the aerial photograph of Birkenau shows that
the roofs of the gas chambers are "bear", and one cannot see
any structures via which the Zyklon was introduced. This is a
lie, as can be verified by looking at that photograph (I have a
GIF file of a part of it, showing Krema III, and one can clearly
see four such structures on the roof).


=Danny Keren.


Article 20529 of alt.revisionism:
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From: simon1@bu.edu (Simon Streltsov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Who's a Jew?
Date: 26 Dec 1994 23:36:06 GMT
Organization: Boston University
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <3dnk16$1g1@news.bu.edu>
References: <3dktvt$lk@eis.calstate.edu> <3dmmr8$ge6@ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: acs4.bu.edu
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL0]

Ross Vicksell (codfish@netcom.com) wrote:
: Annie Alpert (anny@ix.netcom.com) wrote:

: : own definition an atheist form a family of non-practicing Jews.  In my 
: : mind you are not Jewish if you do not practive Judaism, since it is a 

: I know a lot of non-practicing Jews who still call themselves Jews.

Ross is right in the sense that non-practicing Jews are Jews.
Annie is right in the sense that if you are interested in
a "Jewish position" on something:
you should remember that [unfortunately] there are
1. positions common among Jews
2. positions common among practicing Jews.

THat will lead to different positions on many questions.

FWIW - most of the well-known represenatives of Jews 
are not practicing Jews - AFAIK (I am sure I'll be flamed by a list
of examples). 
Same goes for Jewish organizations - Bnai Brith is not
representing practicing Jews.


Simcha, who increases in Adar
        and decreases in Av
and speaks
Russian with Jewish  accent
English with Russian accent
Hebrew  with English accent
all year long
( and writes also)


Article 20544 of alt.revisionism:
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From: danny@violet.ccit.arizona.edu (Mittleman, Daniel D.)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Who's a Jew?
Date: 26 Dec 1994 20:23 MST
Organization: University of Arizona
Lines: 19
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <26DEC199420230839@violet.ccit.arizona.edu>
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NNTP-Posting-Host: violet.ccit.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    

codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) writes...
>: Still--who are 'all' these OTHER Jewish supporters?  Does anyone out 

>Most of them are in the closet, just as are many other supporters of the 
>IHR, only more so.  And when they come out - you just wait.

    OK, I'll wait...

    wait...

    wait...

    wait...

    um, I hope you don't mind if I do something else while I am waiting,
    Ross.

==================================================================
Daniel David Mittleman


Article 20545 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!sunserver.insinc.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!codfish
From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: alt.revisionism in New Book
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References:  <3dkcfs$j2v@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <3dkrio$dio@prime.mdata.fi>  <3dngle$cl1@agate.berkeley.edu>
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 1994 03:57:19 GMT
Lines: 17

Richard Schultz (schultz@garnet.berkeley.edu) wrote:
: In article ,
: Ross Vicksell  wrote:

: >Who's doing all the forensic examination of gas chambers, crematoria,
: >aerial photos, etc. and getting into hot water for it?  Give you a hint -
: >It ain't Christopher Browning or Elie Wiesel.

: Let me guess. . . could it be, by any chance, some pharmacist named
: Pressac?

Is Pressac in hot water, too?

: --
: 					Richard Schultz

: "I seem to smell a peculiar and a fishlike smell."


Article 20549 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Prosecution of those analyzing evidence
Date: 27 Dec 1994 16:18:30 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <3dq0b6$f7i@access4.digex.net>
References:   <3dovj2$plg@agate.berkeley.edu> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net

In article ,
Ross Vicksell  wrote:
>Richard Schultz (schultz@garnet.berkeley.edu) wrote:
>: ... in his discussion of the photographs taken at Auschwitz
>: during the time of its operation, [Pressac] showed that at least one of 
>: them had been retouched later (people's faces had been altered) and as
>: far as I know he hasn't gotten in any hot water for that either.
>
>Unlike John Ball, who's about to be hauled into court for making similar,
>albeit more incriminating, observations about Auschwitz aerial photos. 

    Why not provide the details, Ross?

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


Article 20551 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: alt.revisionism in New Book
Date: 27 Dec 1994 21:25:18 GMT
Organization: Brown University
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Message-ID: <3dq0nu$ig3@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
References:   <3dovj2$plg@agate.berkeley.edu> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu

Ross Vicksell  wrote:

# Unlike John Ball, who's about to be hauled into court for making 
# similar, albeit more incriminating, observations about Auschwitz 
# aerial photos. 

For the record, I am against persecuting Holocaust deniers. I guess
most folks who have been reading what I post here realize what my
opinion about them is, but I am against persecuting them. Canada
should learn from the US in this respect.

On a side matter, Vicksell's claim about the "incriminating 
observations" Ball allegedly made about the Auschwitz aerial
photos is pure rubbish, like practically everything Vicksell
writes. If he claims differently, let's see these "incriminating
observations". Since my main areas of interest are image 
processing and computer vision, I also have professional interest
in this topic.   


-Danny Keren.


Article 20553 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: alt.revisionism in New Book
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References:   <3dngle$cl1@agate.berkeley.edu>  <3dovj2$plg@agate.berkeley.edu>
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 1994 20:16:50 GMT
Lines: 13

Richard Schultz (schultz@garnet.berkeley.edu) wrote:
: ... Pressac did a careful
: analysis of much of the primary documentation of the construction and
: operation of Auschwitz, and didn't get into hot water for it.  Among
: other things, in his discussion of the photographs taken at Auschwitz
: during the time of its operation, he showed that at least one of them
: had been retouched later (people's faces had been altered) and as
: far as I know he hasn't gotten in any hot water for that either.

Unlike John Ball, who's about to be hauled into court for making similar,
albeit more incriminating, observations about Auschwitz aerial photos. 

                    Ross Vicksell


Article 20554 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!kmcvay
From: kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay)
Subject: Re: Internet Racism
References:  
Organization: The Old Frog's Almanac
Message-ID: <1994Dec29.021918.9396@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
Date: Thu, 29 Dec 94 02:19:18 GMT

In article  codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) writes:

>Harvey Goldberg (ae763@FreeNet.Carleton.CA) wrote:


>: I work for the Canadian Human Rights Commission.  


>These are the birds, I believe, who are trying to make life miserable for 
>Doug Collins and John Ball out in BC.  Or do I have it all wrong, Ken?

No - the Collins complaint was filed with the provincial hrc, not
the feds.

-- 
"Mr XXXXXXX is obviously Jewish and a living  example of why the Nazis 
tried to remove Jews from Europe and short of that, into concentration 
camps for the duration of the war."        (Fritz Berg, June 26, 1994)
 ============================ Nizkor ================================


Article 20558 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!uunet!world!bzs
From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: alt.revisionism in New Book
In-Reply-To: codfish@netcom.com's message of Tue, 27 Dec 1994 20:16:50 GMT
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References: 
	 <3dngle$cl1@agate.berkeley.edu>
	 <3dovj2$plg@agate.berkeley.edu>
	
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 1994 22:41:39 GMT
Lines: 22


I'm certainly 100% opposed to holocaust deniers being hauled into
court or otherwise legally harassed for the mere expression of their
opinions and view it as an unjust persecution.

On the other hand, independent of the occasional exception, quite a
few people who are unjustly persecuted also happen to be very wrong.

I view this more like the famous Nazis in Skokie, Ill case. The Nazis
are two-bit, wrongheaded scumbags, but they still have their
constitutional rights and that's fine by me. But they're still
two-bit, wrongheaded scumbags. Humiliating them in public forum is
enough for me, though.

Obviously this hasn't happened in the US, certainly not significantly
nor conclusively, as their noise here amply demonstrates. Fine by me.

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 20559 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!juno.xana.bc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!scipio.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!garnet.berkeley.edu!schultz
From: schultz@garnet.berkeley.edu (Richard Schultz)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: alt.revisionism in New Book
Date: 27 Dec 1994 11:59:30 GMT
Organization: Philosophers of the Dangerous Maybe
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <3dovj2$plg@agate.berkeley.edu>
References:   <3dngle$cl1@agate.berkeley.edu> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: garnet.berkeley.edu

In article ,
Ross Vicksell  wrote:
>Richard Schultz (schultz@garnet.berkeley.edu) wrote:
>: In article ,
>: Ross Vicksell  wrote:

>>> Who's doing all the forensic examination of gas chambers, crematoria,
>>> aerial photos, etc. and getting into hot water for it?

>> Let me guess. . . could it be, by any chance, some pharmacist named
>> Pressac?

> Is Pressac in hot water, too?

Not that I know of, which was the point, namely that your conclusions
don't seem to follow from your premises.  Pressac did a careful
analysis of much of the primary documentation of the construction and
operation of Auschwitz, and didn't get into hot water for it.  Among
other things, in his discussion of the photographs taken at Auschwitz
during the time of its operation, he showed that at least one of them
had been retouched later (people's faces had been altered) and as
far as I know he hasn't gotten in any hot water for that either.

The people who are getting in "hot water" was you call it are people
like Leuchter, and it is not for their having done their analyses that
they are getting in hot water but for their incompetence and lies.

And how much "hot water" has, say, Friederich Berg or Greg Raven gotten
into?
--
				Richard Schultz

"It is terrible to die of thirst in the ocean.  Do you have to salt your
truth so heavily that it does not even quench thirst any more?"


Article 20568 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!codfish
From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: To HMazal@aol.com re David Cole
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References:  
Date: Wed, 28 Dec 1994 01:15:32 GMT
Lines: 52

martev (martev@gate.net) wrote:


: On Tue, 27 Dec 1994, Steve Ridley wrote:

: > Since you don'[t answer by Email, I'll ask here as you suggested. Could 
: > you give me a summary of where the tape was edited? I viewed the tape and 
: > do not know where or what was edited. So please, tell me.
: > 
: > Regards,
: > 
: > Steve.
: > ridley@nucleus.com
: > 

: Dr Piper's letter posted here by myself was clearly evident that what he 
: said was edited.

: One cannot 'see' editing if done well.

: The editing as done by Bradley Smith, who claims to have produced it, was 
: quite amateurish, and quite obvious..  Look at it again.

David did the editing, not Bradley.  Producers and Editors are not 
usually the same people.

: Just viewing the tape, by any experienced photographer will show sloppy 
: editing,

How about being a little more specific, for the the benefit of us less 
experienced photographers.

: The word of Dr Piper should be enough.  

Not for me, it ain't.  I'd as soon take the word of David Cole.

: If someone doesn't believe him, write to HIM and ask him.  

And he'll just repeat his lies.

: Reread his letter. 

Why don't you post it again.

: It was quite explicit as to the 
: underhanded methods used to obtain the interview.

It's too bad that revisionists have to resort to the same kind of
underhanded methods used by people on your side to get their adversaries
to say embarrassing things, but that's life. 

                         Ross


Article 20571 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mstein@access.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: To HMazal@aol.com re David Cole
Date: 27 Dec 1994 21:21:31 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <3dqi3b$dj0@access2.digex.net>
References:   
NNTP-Posting-Host: access2.digex.net

In article ,
Ross Vicksell  wrote:
>It's too bad that revisionists have to resort to the same kind of
>underhanded methods used by people on your side to get their adversaries
>to say embarrassing things, but that's life. 

    Please give examples, Ross.  Name names, places and dates.

    I have never had to do anything underhanded to get adversaries to say
embarrassing things.  People like Michael Hoffman and Greg Raven seem only
too glad to stick their feet into their mouths up to the hip without any 
trickery on my part.

    (The details are kind of long, but anyone who wants them, just email -
if there's enough demand I will repost the encounters.)

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


Article 20575 of alt.revisionism:
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From: hmazal@aol.com (HMazal)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: To HMazal@aol.com re David Cole
Date: 27 Dec 1994 23:33:49 -0500
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 25
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <3dqprd$5m8@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: 
Reply-To: hmazal@aol.com (HMazal)

The following dialogue between Martev (1) and Mr. Vicksell (2) should be
analyzed:

(1)The word of Dr Piper should be enough.  

(2)Not for me, it ain't.  I'd as soon take the word of David Cole.

(1: If someone doesn't believe him, write to HIM and ask him.  

(2)And he'll just repeat his lies.

Mr. Cole's word must certainly be in doubt.  Anyone who has seen the video
will agree. In the tape Mr. Cole admits to deceit (is that the same as
lies?) in order to gain the confidence of the personnel at the Auschwitz
Museum. Hmmm... Mr. Vicksell prefers the word of an admitted liar to that
of a professional historian! 

On the other hand, if any answer by Dr. Piper would necessarily be a lie
(according to Mr. Vicksell), one must assume that anything Dr. Piper
stated in Mr. Cole's video is also a lie.

It is rather difficult to have things both ways, isn't it?

Harry W. Mazal in San Antonio, Texas   



Article 20581 of alt.revisionism:
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From: golux@mcs.com (The only Golux in the World, and not a mere Device)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: To HMazal@aol.com re David Cole
Date: Wed, 28 Dec 1994 00:39:45 -0600
Organization: MCSNet Services
Lines: 25
Message-ID: 
References:   
NNTP-Posting-Host: golux.pr.mcs.net

In article , codfish@netcom.com (Ross
Vicksell) wrote:

> It's too bad that revisionists have to resort to the same kind of
> underhanded methods used by people on your side to get their adversaries
> to say embarrassing things, but that's life. 

Ross, can you document a case of someone on "our side" (by which I assume
you mean what someone has called the "Archivists") doctoring a tape to
make the deniers say "embarrassing things"?  Can you even document a case
where someone here doctored a denier's posted article to make the denier
say embarrassing things?

I'm just not sure what you're getting at here.  It's not our goal or
purpose to make the deniers say embarrassing things; we merely point out
when they have said something for which they should be embarrassed. 
There's a very real distinction.

Posted/emailed.

-- 
D. J. Schaeffer |       The Todal looks like a blob of glup.
golux@mcs.com   |     It makes a sound like rabbits screaming,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^        and smells of old, unopened rooms.
                            -- Thurber, _The 13 Clocks_


Article 20583 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!darkstar.UCSC.EDU!news.hal.COM!decwrl!netcomsv!netcom.com!codfish
From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: To HMazal@aol.com re David Cole
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References:    
Date: Wed, 28 Dec 1994 08:56:40 GMT
Lines: 25

The only Golux in the World, and not a mere Device (golux@mcs.com) wrote:
: In article , codfish@netcom.com (Ross
: Vicksell) wrote:

: > It's too bad that revisionists have to resort to the same kind of
: > underhanded methods used by people on your side to get their adversaries
: > to say embarrassing things, but that's life. 

: Ross, can you document a case of someone on "our side" (by which I assume
: you mean what someone has called the "Archivists") doctoring a tape to
: make the deniers say "embarrassing things"?  Can you even document a case
: where someone here doctored a denier's posted article to make the denier
: say embarrassing things?

I'm using "your side" in a more general sense.  Just as David affected a
yarmulke and prayer book to get Piper to let down his guard, so an
undercover operator pretending to be a representative of a right-wing racist
group was sent by the Simon Wiesenthal Center to pretend to try to recruit
Mark Weber into this non-existent group. In the course of having lunch
with Mark, the agent allegedly got Mark to say how dissatisfied he was
with his job at the IHR and how he would be only too willing to move on to
greener pastures if the opportunity were presented to him.  I believe Ken
McVay has an entry about it in his Archive. 

                 Ross


Article 20585 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!codfish
From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: To HMazal@aol.com re David Cole
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References:  <3dqm05$514@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
Date: Wed, 28 Dec 1994 09:15:29 GMT
Lines: 57

HMazal (hmazal@aol.com) wrote:

: Proof 1:  The video film is entitled "David Cole Interviews Dr. Franciszek
: Piper."  
: The film is _not_ an interview at all. It lasts "about 60 minutes" and Dr.
: Piper's role is limited to a few seconds on screen. 

The reason the film is called what it is is simply that that's the big 
scene in the video.  Does the shooting going for all 122 minutes of 
"Gunfight at the O.K. Corral?"

: This in spite of the
: fact that Mr. Cole spent a substantially longer period of time in Dr.
: Piper's office.  Where is the rest of that interview?

On the cutting room floor (or its video edit equivalent), of course.  This
is standard operating procedure.  How much of the interviews that Mike
Wallace did with David, Bradley, and Ernst Zuendel shows up in the final
product? 

: Proof 2:  The printed blurb that accompanies my copy of the film states:
: "The literature we sent some of you contained an error of fact.  Some of
: the literature stated that the video titled "David Cole Interviews Dr.
: Franciszek Piper" is about 90 minutes. In fact it is about 60 minutes."   
: Where are the missing 30 minutes? Or does this "error of fact" fall into
: Mr. Smith's famous "omnibus" logic?

So they said they're sorry, already.  Why make such a big deal of it?

: Proof 3: Prof. Piper states, among others in the copyrighted letter "...My
: answers on a few questions of Cole (who deceitfully introduced himself as
: a man who wanted to convince his acquaintances in America that Auschwitz
: was really a place of genocide) constitute a small proportion of this
: video tape." 

The rest may have been very dull.  Who knows.

  As Mr. Cole admits to his deceit on the very video tape
: that I have in my posession, can one not doubt his veracity in the rest of
: the video?  What was that quote again about "omnibus?"

: More proof?  Stay tuned...

Can't wait.

: If you want a copy of the letter, please send a self-addressed envelope to
: me at:

: Harry W. Mazal
: 14542 Brookhollow #238,
: San Antonio, Texas 78232.

: I will gladly pay the postage.






Article 20601 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!juno.xana.bc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!torn!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!csus.edu!netcom.com!codfish
From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Revisionist imprisioned in Sweden
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References:  <3ds0pc$11v@news.xs4all.nl>
Date: Thu, 29 Dec 1994 02:31:28 GMT
Lines: 27

Danny A. Nijburg (dannya@xs4all.nl) wrote:
: doyal@eskimo.com (Thomas Doyal) wrote:
: ->Sweden join the ranks of totalitarian countries like Nazi Germany, Soviet
: ->Russia.  Freedom of speech is a farce.  The following is from Ditlieb
: ->Felderer in a Swedish  jail for his beliefs.
: ->
: [Ravings deleted..]

: Are you sure he is in jail ?

: Proof please ?

: It sounds more like he is in the State Home for the Bewildered.


:                                          /\\\\
: Danny A. Nijburg                         (@|@)
: --------------------------------------ooO-(v)-Ooo-----
: Victorieplein 47-2                        ~Y~
: 1078 PD Amsterdam- The Netherlands
: Phone/Fax +31 20 671 7711             Do unto others.....

This is a really asinine post, IMHO.

           Ross Vicksell




Article 20602 of alt.revisionism:
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From: golux@mcs.com (The only Golux in the World, and not a mere Device)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: To HMazal@aol.com re David Cole
Date: Wed, 28 Dec 1994 21:05:50 -0600
Organization: MCSNet Services
Lines: 34
Message-ID: 
References:  <3dqm05$514@newsbf02.news.aol.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: golux.pr.mcs.net

In article , codfish@netcom.com (Ross
Vicksell) wrote:

> HMazal (hmazal@aol.com) wrote:
> 
> : Proof 1:  The video film is entitled "David Cole Interviews Dr. Franciszek
> : Piper."  
> : The film is _not_ an interview at all. It lasts "about 60 minutes" and Dr.
> : Piper's role is limited to a few seconds on screen. 
> 
> The reason the film is called what it is is simply that that's the big 
> scene in the video.  Does the shooting going for all 122 minutes of 
> "Gunfight at the O.K. Corral?"

So are you saying

a. that the Cole videotape is a fictionalized retelling of a historical event;

b. that the Cole videotape consists of a series of episodes building
toward, designed to give a greater understanding of, and culminating in
the central/focal/pivotal interview with Dr. Piper;

c. both a and b; or

d. what?

Sometimes you astound me with your obstinate obtuseness.  (Or is it obtuse
obstinacy?)

-- 
D. J. Schaeffer |       The Todal looks like a blob of glup.
golux@mcs.com   |     It makes a sound like rabbits screaming,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^        and smells of old, unopened rooms.
                            -- Thurber, _The 13 Clocks_


Article 20603 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!juno.xana.bc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!vanbc.wimsey.com!news.mindlink.net!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!codfish
From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: The USHMM
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References:  
Date: Thu, 29 Dec 1994 02:43:38 GMT
Lines: 16

Barry Shein (bzs@world.std.com) wrote:

: >The U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum: A costly and dangerous mistake
: 	blahblahblahblah...
: >financed through the unwitting largesse of the American
: >taxpayer,

: If you read thru this, what these looney-tunes mean by this statement
: is that donations are tax-deductible.

Although the museum construction costs came from private donations, the
land it sits on, one of choicest locations in DC, is a gift from the
goverment, which (meaning you the taxpayer) is also paying the salaries
of the staff and other maintenance expenses. 

                Ross Vicksell


Article 20605 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!juno.xana.bc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!vanbc.wimsey.com!news.mindlink.net!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!uunet!world!bzs
From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Revisionist imprisioned in Sweden
In-Reply-To: codfish@netcom.com's message of Thu, 29 Dec 1994 02:31:28 GMT
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References:  <3ds0pc$11v@news.xs4all.nl>
	
Date: Thu, 29 Dec 1994 03:09:11 GMT
Lines: 32


From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
>: It sounds more like he is in the State Home for the Bewildered.
>This is a really asinine post, IMHO.

Really Ross? That was basically my reaction to the text from Felderer
also.

Perhaps he's being unfairly treated but the text seemed quite
disjointed and rambling, independent of the issue (which it really
didn't shed any light on.)

So what exactly is he in prison for? I read the whole thing and all I
could gather was the he believes he's got the establishment at large
running scared. That's not exactly a summary, nor a very insightful
comment whence sitting in a prison cell.

Perhaps you're a bit too accustomed to preaching to the choir (him
also) and figure just because the guy is in prison everyone will
automatically take as gospel that it must be unfair and sway in
hypnotic agreement to his angry (I guess) tones. It certainly wasn't
at all apparent to me what was going on and his text seemed a bit,
well, delusions of grandeur come to mind but hey, who knows. Like I
said I'm having a lot of trouble getting anything factual out of any
of this.


-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 20606 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!juno.xana.bc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!spool.mu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!uunet!world!bzs
From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: The USHMM
In-Reply-To: codfish@netcom.com's message of Thu, 29 Dec 1994 02:43:38 GMT
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References: 
	 
Date: Thu, 29 Dec 1994 03:29:19 GMT
Lines: 42


From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) [responding to me]
>: If you read thru this, what these looney-tunes mean by this statement
>: is that donations are tax-deductible.
>
>Although the museum construction costs came from private donations, the
>land it sits on, one of choicest locations in DC, is a gift from the
>goverment, which (meaning you the taxpayer) is also paying the salaries
>of the staff and other maintenance expenses. 

I don't see how the fact that it sits on donated govt land implies
that these salaries are paid by the taxpayer. Do you think one follows
from the other? What are you trying to say here? You lost me.

And is this really any different from a creationist beleaguring a
natural history museum?

I think that article was pretty damn misleading, and purposely so.

Why don't y'all stick to trying to convince anyone, other than your
choir and a few kleim types (ie, die-hard nazis who love yer stuff),
that there's anything worthwhile in your beliefs. Rather than drawing
conclusions from them.

People go homeless and all that, yeah, right. Funny how this is where
y'all have decided to start fixing that problem...

It's so damn cheap and transparent, real kook stuff.

It's also not shocking that y'all attack anything that documents the
Holocaust. That's most telling of your agenda. What crap. What next
Ross? Burn down the libraries? I mean, they do house a lot of books
documenting the holocaust. That you don't agree surely must be a good
reason to just burn them to the ground. Lah-dee-dah.

Crap crap crap.

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 20608 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!juno.xana.bc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!csus.edu!netcom.com!codfish
From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Fred Leuchter (was Re: Revisionist answers)
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References:  <3d9b8k$rkt@agate.berkeley.edu>  <3dbr5f$r92@agate.berkeley.edu>
Date: Thu, 29 Dec 1994 07:34:53 GMT
Lines: 26

Richard Schultz (schultz@garnet.berkeley.edu) wrote:
: In article ,
: Greg Raven  wrote:

: >It was not Leuchter who lied, but the prison managements. Perhaps now you
: >understand.

: Yes, I understand that you are a complete lunatic.  If the prison
: managements lied (i.e. perjured themselves in a court of law), why
: didn't Leuchter at least sue them for libel (their public statements
: are on record); why did he not sue them for his loss of business; why
: did his lawyer not at least try to cross-examine the managements into 
: revealing their perjury; why did not Leuchter try to lobby the authorities
: to have these prison managements taken to court for their perjury?
: --

I was wondering about this, too, so I called up Fred's attorney, Kirk
Lyons. According to him, he wanted to sue but Fred didn't.  Fred, at that
stage, still had the unrealistic hope that he could rebuild his business
after he got certification from the Massachusetts engineering licensing
authorities, and he didn't want to alienate the prison wardens in the
meantime.  Kirk, on the other hand, realized that the wardens knew which
side their bread was buttered on, and that they knew it would politically
unwise for them to ever resume dealings with Fred. 

                 Ross Vicksell


Article 20611 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!juno.xana.bc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!csus.edu!netcom.com!codfish
From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Revisionist imprisioned in Sweden
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References: <55b_9412282300@pch.se>
Date: Thu, 29 Dec 1994 08:08:39 GMT
Lines: 18

Robert Nordin (rwn@little.pch.se) wrote:
: Felderer is, for at least the second time, imprisoned for the next
: 2 years. (He get 10 months the first time, 1982)

: Robert Nordin, rwn@little.pch.se

: ---------------------------------------------------------
: |Internet  : rwn@little.pch.se
: |Fidonet   : Robert Nordin 2:204/474.8
: |Disclaimer: The views of this user are strictly his own.
: ---------------------------------------------------------
: | From Lilla PC BBS:   Int +46-155-97530, Nat 0155-97530
: ---------------------------------------------------------

  So how do you, as a Swede, feel about his imprisonmemts?  - are/were 
they just?

                        Ross Vicksell


Article 20612 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!juno.xana.bc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!vanbc.wimsey.com!news.mindlink.net!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!codfish
From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: The USHMM
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References:  
Date: Thu, 29 Dec 1994 08:18:41 GMT
Lines: 16

Barry Shein (bzs@world.std.com) wrote:

: From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) [responding to me]
: >Although the museum construction costs came from private donations, the
: >land it sits on, one of choicest locations in DC, is a gift from the
: >goverment, which (meaning you the taxpayer) is also paying the salaries
: >of the staff and other maintenance expenses. 

: I don't see how the fact that it sits on donated govt land implies
: that these salaries are paid by the taxpayer. Do you think one follows
: from the other? What are you trying to say here? You lost me.

Salaries are covered in an act of congress, which provides for museum
maintenance until the year 2000. 

                          Ross Vicksell


Article 20615 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!garnet.berkeley.edu!schultz
From: schultz@garnet.berkeley.edu (Richard Schultz)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Fred Leuchter (was Re: Revisionist answers)
Date: 29 Dec 1994 12:35:25 GMT
Organization: Philosophers of the Dangerous Maybe
Lines: 39
Message-ID: <3duaed$e7t@agate.berkeley.edu>
References:   <3dbr5f$r92@agate.berkeley.edu> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: garnet.berkeley.edu

In article ,
Ross Vicksell  wrote:

>I was wondering about this, too, so I called up Fred's attorney, Kirk
>Lyons. According to him, he wanted to sue but Fred didn't.  Fred, at that
>stage, still had the unrealistic hope that he could rebuild his business
>after he got certification from the Massachusetts engineering licensing
>authorities, and he didn't want to alienate the prison wardens in the
>meantime.  Kirk, on the other hand, realized that the wardens knew which
>side their bread was buttered on, and that they knew it would politically
>unwise for them to ever resume dealings with Fred. 

This doesn't really address the issue.  If Leuchter had been running his
business in any kind of rational fashion, he would have kept some records
of his dealings with the prison.  Thus, when the prison officials said
"we have never had any dealings with this guy," Leuchter's lawyer could
have pulled out the correspondence and said "well, then, why did you 
write this letter saying 'Thank you for your help'?" or pulled out
the check stub and say "well, then, why did you pay him?" or at the
very least pulled out the long-distance phone log and said "we have
evidence of several lengthy phone calls between you and him.  What were 
they about?"

I am not a lwayer and I don't know the statute of limitations for 
such things as loss of business or slander.  But it seems to me that
if Leuchter can show that he was unable to rebuild his business as a
result of what those two wardens said, then his case is that
much stronger.  But the story as you tell it still makes no sense to
me.  On the one hand we have the possibility that the wardens lied in order
to protect some vast conspiracy.  On the other hand we have the possibility
that they were telling the truth, and that Leuchter -- who had already
admitted in open court to having lied about one thing already -- was
lying about the extent to which his services were used.  Unless you
present some kind of overwhelming evidence for the former possibility,
I cannot see any rational person preferring it to the second.
--
					Richard Schultz

"I seem to smell a peculiar and a fishlike smell."


Article 20618 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Revisionist imprisioned in Sweden
Date: 29 Dec 1994 08:11:15 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 16
Message-ID: <3duchj$1ht@access4.digex.net>
References:  <3ds0pc$11v@news.xs4all.nl> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net

In article ,
Ross Vicksell  wrote:
>Danny A. Nijburg (dannya@xs4all.nl) wrote:
>: doyal@eskimo.com (Thomas Doyal) wrote:

>This is a really asinine post, IMHO.
>
>           Ross Vicksell

    Why do you think it's particularly worse than any of Doyal's other
posts, Ross? 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


Article 20623 of alt.revisionism:
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From: martev 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The USHMM
Date: Thu, 29 Dec 1994 10:46:54 -0500 (EST)
Lines: 22
Message-ID: 
References:   
NNTP-Posting-Host: seminole.gate.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
In-Reply-To:  



On Thu, 29 Dec 1994, Ross Vicksell wrote:

> Barry Shein (bzs@world.std.com) wrote:
> 
> 
> : I don't see how the fact that it sits on donated govt land implies
> : that these salaries are paid by the taxpayer. Do you think one follows
> : from the other? What are you trying to say here? You lost me.
> 
> Salaries are covered in an act of congress, which provides for museum
> maintenance until the year 2000. 
> 
>                           Ross Vicksell

Pray tell, in 5 more years, will you have something new to crap, err, 
carp, about???? 

What's your real problem, honestly??

Dare you tell??


Article 20639 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!codfish
From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Fred Leuchter (was Re: Revisionist answers)
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References:   <3dbr5f$r92@agate.berkeley.edu>  <3duaed$e7t@agate.berkeley.edu>
Date: Thu, 29 Dec 1994 22:43:16 GMT
Lines: 53

Richard Schultz (schultz@garnet.berkeley.edu) wrote:
: In article ,
: Ross Vicksell  wrote:

: >I was wondering about this, too, so I called up Fred's attorney, Kirk
: >Lyons. According to him, he wanted to sue but Fred didn't.  Fred, at that
: >stage, still had the unrealistic hope that he could rebuild his business
: >after he got certification from the Massachusetts engineering licensing
: >authorities, and he didn't want to alienate the prison wardens in the
: >meantime.  Kirk, on the other hand, realized that the wardens knew which
: >side their bread was buttered on, and that they knew it would politically
: >unwise for them to ever resume dealings with Fred. 
 
: This doesn't really address the issue.  If Leuchter had been running his
: business in any kind of rational fashion, he would have kept some records
: of his dealings with the prison.  Thus, when the prison officials said
: "we have never had any dealings with this guy," Leuchter's lawyer could
: have pulled out the correspondence and said "well, then, why did you 
: write this letter saying 'Thank you for your help'?" or pulled out
: the check stub and say "well, then, why did you pay him?" or at the
: very least pulled out the long-distance phone log and said "we have
: evidence of several lengthy phone calls between you and him.  What were 
: they about?

Like I said, Fre did not want to hassle ANY prison officials.


: I am not a lwayer and I don't know the statute of limitations for 
: such things as loss of business or slander.  But it seems to me that
: if Leuchter can show that he was unable to rebuild his business as a
: result of what those two wardens said, then his case is that
: much stronger.  But the story as you tell it still makes no sense to
: me.  On the one hand we have the possibility that the wardens lied in order
: to protect some vast conspiracy.

You guys and your "vast conspiracy."  Pressure was brought on the prison 
officials.  Period.

: On the other hand we have the possibility
: that they were telling the truth, and that Leuchter -- who had already
: admitted in open court to having lied about one thing already -- was

About what!?  The prison officials all either knew what his credentials,
or lack of same, were or didn't care.  This matter came up again and again
in court hearings. 

: lying about the extent to which his services were used.  Unless you
: present some kind of overwhelming evidence for the former possibility,
: I cannot see any rational person preferring it to the second.
: --
: 					Richard Schultz

: "I seem to smell a peculiar and a fishlike smell."


Article 20640 of alt.revisionism:
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From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Fred Leuchter (was Re: Revisionist answers)
Date: Thu, 29 Dec 1994 18:09:54 -0500
Organization: University of Michigan
Lines: 37
Message-ID: 
References: 
   
   <3dbr5f$r92@agate.berkeley.edu>
   
   <3duaed$e7t@agate.berkeley.edu>
   
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm005-02.dialip.mich.net

codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) wrote:

> Richard Schultz (schultz@garnet.berkeley.edu) wrote:
> : Thus, when the prison officials said
> : "we have never had any dealings with this guy," Leuchter's lawyer could
> : have pulled out the correspondence and said "well, then, why did you 
> : write this letter saying 'Thank you for your help'?" or pulled out
> : the check stub and say "well, then, why did you pay him?"...
> 
> Like I said, Fre did not want to hassle ANY prison officials.

Mr. Vicksell, you seem to be at least friends enough with Leuchter's
attorney that you can call him up just to chat.

Why not ask him and/or Mr. Leuchter himself whether he has any letters,
check stubs, or phone logs indicating that Mr. Leuchter had dealings
with the two prisons in question?

Tell you what -- if you can produce any evidence at all that Mr. Leuchter
dealt with those wardens in the manner which he said he did, I'll
renounce that claim that he perjured himself on that matter.  Until you
or someone else produces such evidence, I'll continue to make that claim.

> Pressure was brought on the prison officials.  Period.

And your evidence for this is...?

Do you have any?

Any at all?

Anything?
-- 
 Jamie McCarthy   Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu   AppleLink: j.mccarthy
 "The Jewish people will be exterminated...it's in our program."  - Himmler
 "Until you find a reference to gas chambers, you can forget about long,
  drawn-out discussions of Himmler's speeches."                     - Raven


Article 20646 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!juno.xana.bc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!codfish
From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Fred Leuchter (was Re: Revisionist answers)
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References:  
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 1994 02:27:16 GMT
Lines: 12

Jamie McCarthy (k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu) wrote:
: Mr. Vicksell, you seem to be at least friends enough with Leuchter's
: attorney that you can call him up just to chat.

: Why not ask him and/or Mr. Leuchter himself whether he has any letters,
: check stubs, or phone logs indicating that Mr. Leuchter had dealings
: with the two prisons in question?

Fred dropped out of sight last spring, but I'll call Kirk again to see 
what he's got.

                           Ross Vicksell


Article 20647 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!codfish
From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: The USHMM
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References:    
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 1994 02:44:08 GMT
Lines: 25

martev (martev@gate.net) wrote:


: On Thu, 29 Dec 1994, Ross Vicksell wrote:

: > Barry Shein (bzs@world.std.com) wrote:
: > 
: > 
: > : I don't see how the fact that it sits on donated govt land implies
: > : that these salaries are paid by the taxpayer. Do you think one follows
: > : from the other? What are you trying to say here? You lost me.
: > 
: > Salaries are covered in an act of congress, which provides for museum
: > maintenance until the year 2000. 
: > 
: >                           Ross Vicksell

: Pray tell, in 5 more years, will you have something new to crap, err, 
: carp, about???? 

: What's your real problem, honestly??

: Dare you tell??

      What'd eating this guy, anyway?


Article 20652 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!juno.xana.bc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!vanbc.wimsey.com!news.mindlink.net!agate!spool.mu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news1.digex.net!news.iac.net!ip041220.iac.net!user
From: jeff_brown@pol.com (Jeffrey G. Brown)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Fred Leuchter (was Re: Revisionist answers)
Date: 30 Dec 1994 05:59:21 GMT
Organization: Internet Access Cincinnati 513-887-8877
Lines: 23
Message-ID: 
References:   <3dbr5f$r92@agate.berkeley.edu>  <3duaed$e7t@agate.berkeley.edu> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: ip041220.iac.net

In article , codfish@netcom.com (Ross
Vicksell) wrote:

> : I am not a lwayer and I don't know the statute of limitations for 
> : such things as loss of business or slander.  But it seems to me that
> : if Leuchter can show that he was unable to rebuild his business as a
> : result of what those two wardens said, then his case is that
> : much stronger.  But the story as you tell it still makes no sense to
> : me.  On the one hand we have the possibility that the wardens lied in order
> : to protect some vast conspiracy.
> 
> You guys and your "vast conspiracy."  Pressure was brought on the prison 
> officials.  Period.

By whom? When? Where is your evidence, Vicksell? Produce facts -- all we
have from another 'revisionist scholar' are, as usual, more
unsubstantiated allegations.

JGB

=====================================================================
Jeffrey G. Brown                                   jeff_brown@pol.com
 "What's going to happen?"   "Something wonderful..."   -- '2010'


Article 20653 of alt.revisionism:
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From: jeff_brown@pol.com (Jeffrey G. Brown)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Fred Leuchter (was Re: Revisionist answers)
Date: 30 Dec 1994 06:00:19 GMT
Organization: Internet Access Cincinnati 513-887-8877
Lines: 23
Message-ID: 
References:   
NNTP-Posting-Host: ip041220.iac.net

In article , codfish@netcom.com (Ross
Vicksell) wrote:

> Jamie McCarthy (k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu) wrote:
> : Mr. Vicksell, you seem to be at least friends enough with Leuchter's
> : attorney that you can call him up just to chat.
> 
> : Why not ask him and/or Mr. Leuchter himself whether he has any letters,
> : check stubs, or phone logs indicating that Mr. Leuchter had dealings
> : with the two prisons in question?
> 
> Fred dropped out of sight last spring, but I'll call Kirk again to see 
> what he's got.

Sure you will.

We'll never hear from Vicksell on this again, folks. Bet on it.

JGB

=====================================================================
Jeffrey G. Brown                                   jeff_brown@pol.com
 "What's going to happen?"   "Something wonderful..."   -- '2010'


Article 20734 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!juno.xana.bc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!zip.eecs.umich.edu!panix!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!usc!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!agate!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!csus.edu!netcom.com!codfish
From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Internmant of Jews in WWII
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References: <3cfkd5$q7h@urvile.MSUS.EDU> <3d2f84$3jm@agate.berkeley.edu> <3drofu$jc9@info.census.gov> <3dsg8k$977@urvile.msus.edu> <3duc5i$17j@access4.digex.net>
Date: Sun, 1 Jan 1995 06:04:20 GMT
Lines: 51

Michael P. Stein (mstein@access4.digex.net) wrote:
: In article <3dsg8k$977@urvile.msus.edu>,
: Milton John Kleim, Jr.  wrote:
: >Lisa Nyman writes:
: >>and I'm waiting for any denier to explain why it was OK for nazis to round
: >>up Jews...
: >
: >For the security of the German People and State, 
: >just as the Franklin Rosen-
: >feld, uh, I mean Roosevelt, 
: >ordered the Japanese to be herded into "relocation
: >centers" for the security of the American State.

:     A black mark in American history, to be sure.  Of course, the most 
: decorated unit in the Army during WWII (and perhaps of all time, I'm not 
: sure) was the one made up of Japanese-Americans fighting in Europe.  Did 
: the Nazis ever form a Jewish unit?


: >>...herd them into camps as slave labor...
: >
: >Why not?  They were fed and clothed and sheltered by the German government,
: >even though such supplies and resources were needed badly by the German
: >Armed Forces and even the ordinary Germans.  Why shouldn't the Germans have
: >forced the Jews to work?  

:     You're really too modest.  The Germans relieved the Jews not only of
: the burden of feeding, clothing, and housing themselves, but also of the
: burden of all their property.  What a swell bunch of guys. 

I believe the Japanese internees were also deprived of their property,
especially their homes and farms.  This was one of the hidden motives for
for their internment; West Coast caucasians coveted the property of the
Japanese-Americans.  And the latter  didn't recieve partial restitution until
much later. 

:     So, Milt, do you volunteer to give me everything you own and perform
: manual labor in all weather, with inadequate clothing and an inadequate
: diet, confined to a camp?  Quite a nice life, right?  I mean, if we 

Civil rights and Liberties usually take a beating during wartime.

: non-Aryans decide you're a threat to our security, then it would be 
: entirely right and moral to do that to you, would it not?
: -- 
: Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
: POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
: Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.

Ross Vicksell



Article 20742 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Internmant of Jews in WWII
Date: 1 Jan 1995 12:24:16 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <3e6og0$rs8@access1.digex.net>
References: <3cfkd5$q7h@urvile.MSUS.EDU> <3dsg8k$977@urvile.msus.edu> <3duc5i$17j@access4.digex.net> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

In article ,
Ross Vicksell  wrote:
>Michael P. Stein (mstein@access4.digex.net) wrote:
>:     You're really too modest.  The Germans relieved the Jews not only of
>: the burden of feeding, clothing, and housing themselves, but also of the
>: burden of all their property.  What a swell bunch of guys. 
>
>I believe the Japanese internees were also deprived of their property,
>especially their homes and farms.  This was one of the hidden motives for
>for their internment; West Coast caucasians coveted the property of the
>Japanese-Americans.  And the latter  didn't recieve partial restitution until
>much later. 

    True.  Does this make what the Nazis did right?  Also, were the 
Japanese forced to perform slave labor?  Remember, Kleim said this was 
justified due to the "benefits" received in the camps.


>:     So, Milt, do you volunteer to give me everything you own and perform
>: manual labor in all weather, with inadequate clothing and an inadequate
>: diet, confined to a camp?  Quite a nice life, right?  I mean, if we 
>
>Civil rights and Liberties usually take a beating during wartime.

    True.  Does this make it right?  Does this excuse Dresden?

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


Article 20748 of alt.revisionism:
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Newsgroups: alt.politics.usa.misc,talk.politics.misc,soc.culture.taiwan,soc.culture.indian,soc.culture.vietnamese,alt.revisionism
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Military Cooperation Between Israel and Communist China
Message-ID: 
Followup-To: alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.current-events,talk.politics.misc,soc.culture.taiwan,soc.culture.indian,soc.culture.vietnamese,alt.revisionism
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References: <3e5m1s$lej@ixnews1.ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 1 Jan 1995 18:37:00 GMT
Lines: 3

Arms have long been Israel's principal export.  

            Ross Vicksell


Article 20749 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!juno.xana.bc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!vanbc.wimsey.com!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!pipex!uunet!world!bzs
From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Internmant of Jews in WWII
In-Reply-To: codfish@netcom.com's message of Sun, 1 Jan 1995 06:04:20 GMT
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References: <3cfkd5$q7h@urvile.MSUS.EDU> <3d2f84$3jm@agate.berkeley.edu>
	<3drofu$jc9@info.census.gov> <3dsg8k$977@urvile.msus.edu>
	<3duc5i$17j@access4.digex.net> 
Date: Sun, 1 Jan 1995 19:00:39 GMT
Lines: 53


From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
>:     You're really too modest.  The Germans relieved the Jews not only of
>: the burden of feeding, clothing, and housing themselves, but also of the
>: burden of all their property.  What a swell bunch of guys. 
>
>I believe the Japanese internees were also deprived of their property,
>especially their homes and farms.  This was one of the hidden motives for
>for their internment; West Coast caucasians coveted the property of the
>Japanese-Americans.  And the latter  didn't recieve partial restitution until
>much later. 

You "believe"?

That's a very serious claim, but you just fling whatever crap comes
into your head, right? The CODOH is *so* impressive!

There were no particular provisions regarding private property of
Japanese-Americans who were interned.

What did happen was that many felt they had to liquidate (ie, sell)
property quicky as no one would be available to take care of it or
whatever. That was a terrible thing and no doubt many ended up selling
at well below value which isn't hard to turn into a story of someone
else's benefit.

The Nazis, who you are comparing this too (unbelievable as it may be)
had laws confiscating Jewish property, period. In particular Jewish
businesses and homes, for the state. They set up a large bureaucracy
to hunt down and dispose of (on behalf of the Reich) Jewish-owned
property.

I won't defend or try to minimize what happened to Japanese-Americans,
but I challenge you to find any Japanese-American who was involved to
go along with your comparison in the slightest.

No. The truth of the matter is you folks will use anyone's suffering
or problems to spread your own propaganda.

Truth of the matter is, Ross, you don't give a shit about what
happened to Japanese-Americans in WWII. Just like you guys jump at the
plight of Palestinians when it suits you. It's just propaganda value
to y'all in your desperate and transparent attempt to spread hate and
lies.

I mourn all true victims you people use for your own selfish and
hateful interests.

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
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Article 20751 of alt.revisionism:
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From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Fred Leuchter (was Re: Revisionist answers)
Date: Sun, 01 Jan 1995 15:01:54 -0500
Organization: University of Michigan
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Jamie McCarthy (k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu) wrote:

: Why not ask him and/or Mr. Leuchter himself whether he has any letters,
: check stubs, or phone logs indicating that Mr. Leuchter had dealings
: with the two prisons in question?

codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) wrote:

> Fred dropped out of sight last spring, but I'll call Kirk again to see 
> what he's got.

I'll be eager to see what you learn.  And I repeat my earlier statement:
if you can produce convincing evidence that Mr. Leuchter had actual
business dealings with those prison wardens, contrary to what the wardens
themselves said, I'll renounce the claim that he perjured himself on that
matter.

Meanwhile -- you ignored my question as to how you know that "pressure was
brought on the prison officials."

What evidence do you have for that, Mr. Vicksell?

It's an important question.  If you have no evidence, then your
willingness to posit the existence of "pressure" speaks volumes about
your standards for proof.  If two prison wardens each say that they've
had no dealings with Leuchter, then Occam's Razor would indicate that,
in the absence of evidence indicating otherwise, they indeed have had
no dealings with Leuchter.

Do you have any evidence indicating otherwise?

And if not, why did you invent this "pressure" of which you speak?

Posted and emailed.
-- 
 Jamie McCarthy   Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu   AppleLink: j.mccarthy
 "The Jewish people will be exterminated...it's in our program."  - Himmler
 "Until you find a reference to gas chambers, you can forget about long,
  drawn-out discussions of Himmler's speeches."                     - Raven


Article 20753 of alt.revisionism:
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Letter in Maclean's
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
Date: Sun, 1 Jan 1995 20:13:42 GMT
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The following letter to the editor of Maclean's Magazine appeared in the 
issue of Dec. 26:

                     Revisionist  Ruse

Letter writer Ross Vicksell ("Revisionist history," Nov 28), who wrote
that his group advocated hearing "the other side of the Holocaust story," 
is a Holocaust denier.  Holocaust deniers are anti-Semites.  Would you
print a letter from the Committee for Open Debate on Black Slavery, which
wants to debate whether or not black slavery existed, or to allow people
to hear the other side of the black slavery story?  You have been
hoodwinked. 
   
                 Bernie M. Farber
                 National Director, Community Relations,
                 Canadian Jewish Congress,
                 Willowdale, Ont.



Article 20755 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Letter in Maclean's
In-Reply-To: codfish@netcom.com's message of Sun, 1 Jan 1995 20:13:42 GMT
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)

	(quoting a letter that appeared in a recent McLean's Magazine)

>Letter writer Ross Vicksell ("Revisionist history," Nov 28), who wrote
>that his group advocated hearing "the other side of the Holocaust story," 
>is a Holocaust denier.  Holocaust deniers are anti-Semites.

Virtually every data point we've seen here indicates that holocaust
deniers are in fact anti-semites and hate-mongerers who lie and
fabricate to sell their wares.

I realize they try to appeal to the idea that *in theory* one could
raise these issues without being an anti-semite. That might be true.

But the experience belies that, and hatred is their motivation as
anyone with any experience with them soon comes to realize.

Even Mr Vicksell, though not as rabid as most, can't seem to stay away
from issues such as Israel's current arms exports or the Palestinian
red-herring (a red herring for him, he only uses it when he has
nothing else to say in defense of some whack-o statement he's made) in
an attempt not to argue his point about events that may or may not
have occurred during the second world war, but rather to discredit all
things remotely Jewish with the clear sub-theme that jews are simply
not to be believed or respected as human beings. I suppose it's easier
than his trying to prove his ridiculous and laughable view of the
history of the second world war.

Fredrick Berg posts things like this:

From: bergf@iia.org (Friedrich Berg)
  Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
  Date: 17 Jul 1994 01:49:55 GMT
  >After reading Shein, can anyone really be surprised that the Germans 
  >would people like him in concentration camps during WW2.  That is 
  >precisely where people like him belonged--that is the only thing his 
  >talmudic logic, his filthy sophistry, is ever able to prove.

and

  From: bergf@mary.iia.org (Friedrich Berg)
  Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
  Date: 26 Jun 1994 21:39:11 -0400
  >Mr Kaufman is obviously Jewish and a living example of why the Nazis 
  >tried to remove Jews from Europe and short of that, into concentration 
  >camps for the duration of the war.

Milton Kleim, our resident self-styled Nazi denier posts:

From: hermann@TIGGER.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU
  Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
  Date: 21 Mar 94 09:45:48 -0500
  >The Jew rules only through fear, an atmosphere of conscious and subconscious 
  >terror permeating every facet of society generated by strategic planning, a 
  >socially-caustic mix of money, myth, media, and manipulative politics being 
  >the empowering dynamoes of the grand plan.

Noted holocaust denier "scholar" Tim McCarthy, under the handle
"landpost" posts:

  From: landpost@clark.net
  Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
  Date: 24 Aug 1994 02:25:48 GMT
  >I guess that's why I saw pictures of HillBilly holding hands with niggie
  >boy Mandela with Jew Boy Joe Slovo

another member of their ranks...

  >From Knight_Crusader@nile.com Sun Apr  3 16:45:25 1994
  >Date: Sat,  2 Apr 94 22:33:43 MST
  >   Up to this point in time only a few have warned us about the
  >undesirabilness of Jews and queers in a humble society. Among these
  >were Jesus and Hitler.  Hitler,of course, went to extremes to remedy
  >the problem. But, today, the Jews and queers have another threatening
  >exterminator; the Afro-American.

Mr Ricardo Joshua treats us to...

  >From: gt91rdj@brunel.ac.uk (Ricardo D Joshua)
  >Date: 6 Dec 1994 16:20:58 -0000
  >I *agree* with Hitler's analysis that the Jews are the manipulators
  >of the culture industry.

and we have this sort of deep and sincere expression of an interest
in history:

  >"Let me put it this way:  I don't believe Hitler exterminated six
  > megakikes during WW II.  And even if he did, SO WHAT?"
  >                                   - Les Griswold

And Mr Hoffman's never-ending "proofs" that this or that industry
(usually the movie industry) is in the death-grip of joooos, he seems
to believe that Steven Spielberg is the only (or primary) reason
anyone believes the Holocaust exists! But that's not really his
point. His point is the same as any nazi, drag the jews out of their
jobs, kick them bloody on the streets, and then perhaps even the likes
of Mr Hoffman would be employable, after all, nature abhors a
vacuum...it's all rather transparent, and of course utterly irrelevant
to what exactly did or did not happen during the second world war.

Yet Mr Vicksell's point is...what?

That people "unfairly" and quickly label holocaust deniers "anti-semites"?



Mr Vicksell, you wallow in one of the largest known cesspools of
hatemongering (and not just anti-jewish, tho it's a favorite)
currently known. And you wonder why people sense the foul odor on your
person?

Just who do you think you are kidding?

Why not just show a little courage and come out and say it, you're not
fooling anyone (except perhaps yourself.)




-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 20784 of alt.revisionism:
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From: danny@violet.ccit.arizona.edu (Mittleman, Daniel D.)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Letter in Maclean's
Date: 1 Jan 1995 20:04 MST
Organization: University of Arizona
Lines: 28
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In article , codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) writes...
>The following letter to the editor of Maclean's Magazine appeared in the 
>issue of Dec. 26:
> 
>                     Revisionist  Ruse
> 
>Letter writer Ross Vicksell ("Revisionist history," Nov 28), who wrote
>that his group advocated hearing "the other side of the Holocaust story," 
>is a Holocaust denier.  Holocaust deniers are anti-Semites.  Would you
>print a letter from the Committee for Open Debate on Black Slavery, which
>wants to debate whether or not black slavery existed, or to allow people
>to hear the other side of the black slavery story?  You have been
>hoodwinked. 
>   
>                 Bernie M. Farber
>                 National Director, Community Relations,
>                 Canadian Jewish Congress,
>                 Willowdale, Ont.

    Ross, I commend you for posting a letter which clearly does not put you
    in a good light.  I, personally, agree with Bernie's letter with the
    exception that I would have said "Most holocaust deniers are
    anti-semites."                    ^^^^

    I think Bernie might have trouble proving an absolute in this case.

    ==============================
    Daniel David Mittleman


Article 20817 of alt.revisionism:
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From: carroll@dobie.cis.udel.edu (Mark C. Chu-Carroll)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Letter in Maclean's
Date: 02 Jan 1995 15:31:16 GMT
Organization: University of Delaware
Lines: 38
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References: 
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In-reply-to: codfish@netcom.com's message of Sun, 1 Jan 1995 20:13:42 GMT

>>>>> "Ross
" == Ross Vicksell  writes:
In article  codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) writes:


Ross> The following letter to the editor of Maclean's Magazine appeared in
Ross> the issue of Dec. 26:

Ross> Revisionist Ruse

Ross> Letter writer Ross Vicksell ("Revisionist history," Nov 28), who wrote 
Ross> that his group advocated hearing "the other side of the Holocaust
Ross> story," is a Holocaust denier.  Holocaust deniers are anti-Semites. Would
Ross> you print a letter from the Committee for Open Debate on Black Slavery,
Ross> which wants to debate whether or not black slavery existed, or to allow
Ross> people to hear the other side of the black slavery story?  You have been
Ross> hoodwinked.

I'd agree 100% with the author of that letter - his analogy is
*excellent*.

The point is, there IS no real debate about the Holocaust. There is no
real question that it occured. There is *more* evidence supporting the
fact that the holocaust happened than there is that Blacks were bought
and sold as slaves in America.

There is no debate, and no controversy, except among those with an
ulterior motive. 

Revisionism *is* motivated by antisemitism, and anyone who buys into
it is either an antisemite or a fool.

	
-- 
|| Mark Craig Chu-Carroll:  ||"In all seriousness of truth, hear this:
|| CIS Grad, U of Delaware      || without the It, one cannot live. But
|| PGP Key Available, by finger || whoever lives with It alone is not
|| carroll@cis.udel.edu         || human" - _I_and_Thou_, by Martin Buber


Article 20842 of alt.revisionism:
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From: jwjang@cisco.com (Jia-wei Jang)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.current-events,talk.politics.misc,soc.culture.taiwan,soc.culture.indian,soc.culture.vietnamese,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Military Cooperation Between Israel and Communist China
Date: 2 Jan 1995 22:16:30 GMT
Organization: cisco Systems, Inc., Menlo Park, Ca.
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In article  codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) writes:
>Arms have long been Israel's principal export.  
>
>            Ross Vicksell

Taiwan has had some missiles exported from Israel also.




Article 20849 of alt.revisionism:
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From: "Danny A. Nijburg" 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Letter in Maclean's
Date: 2 Jan 1995 20:39:51 GMT
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carroll@dobie.cis.udel.edu (Mark C. Chu-Carroll) wrote:
>
 
> Revisionism *is* motivated by antisemitism, and anyone who buys into
> it is either an antisemite or a fool.
> 
> 	
> -- 

Nonsense, most of them are both !



Article 20851 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Military Cooperation Between Israel and Communist China
In-Reply-To: jwjang@cisco.com's message of 2 Jan 1995 22:16:30 GMT
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
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References: <3e5m1s$lej@ixnews1.ix.netcom.com> 
	<3e9tvu$gj0@cronkite.cisco.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Jan 1995 00:19:25 GMT
Lines: 36


>Arms have long been Israel's principal export.  
>
>            Ross Vicksell

That's absolutely fascinating Ross, and what's the principal export of
Burundi?

Oh, that wasn't your point?

Well, ok, more to the point:

Does it bother you that both the 1994 Information Please Almanac and
the CIA World Factbook both list polished diamonds as Israel's
principle export? And among the list of major exports none lists arms?
Actually, the CIA World Factbook lists arms as one of their major
*imports*.

So I'm sure you are going to provide us with the source of this bit of
information you posted so people don't think you just fabricate
everything that comes out of your mouth to serve your own
holocaust-denier, basically anti-semitic, political agenda.

You wouldn't want anyone to think that of you, of course. Thank you,
looking forward to it!

Oh, and please do spare us any ranting about the Information Please
Almanac being a lying Zionist front and helpless pawn of the great and
vast international jewish conspiracy. Your own references (or lack
thereof) will suffice to allow us to draw our own conclusions.

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
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