The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/v/vicksell.ross/1994/vicksell.1194


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Article: 18409 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Murungu presents fantasy as truth
In-Reply-To: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu's message of 27 Oct 1994 17:47 MST
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References: 
	
	<27OCT199417475188@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
Date: Fri, 28 Oct 1994 06:35:31 GMT
Lines: 16


From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
>>   The muscles of those who had been shot were still working and
>>   contracting, making the bucket jump about.
>
>    Actually, Mueller's comment was in German.  It would be interesting to
>    see what he actually said in German and see how our linguistic experts
>    in a.r would translate it.

No doubt that in 1945 "jump about" meant "lambada".

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


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Article: 18447 of alt.revisionism
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From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Vicksell - another revisionist who can't read
Date: 1 Nov 1994 09:23:04 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
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In article ,
Ross Vicksell  wrote:
>In article <391avr$mge@access4.digex.net> Michael Stein wrote:
>: In article , Thomas Doyal  wrote:
>: >Gordon McFee (ai292@FreeNet.Carleton.CA) wrote:
>: >: That David Irving would not be afforded the opportunity to state his case
>: >: is an unacceptable denial of his civil rights. [...]
>: >: --
>: >: Gordon McFee ai292
>
>: >MeFee does 
>: >not  condemn the demonstrators who beat up on the audience and 
>: >destroyed Irvings books.
>
>:     Please read the quoted sentence from Gordon's posting again.  What 
>: part of "unacceptable denial of his civil rights" don't you understand?
>
>
>Please read the quoted sentence from Thomas's posting again.  What part of
>"MeFee does not condemn the demonstrators who beat up on the audience and
>destroyed Irvings books." don't you understand?

    Obviously you too don't understand that "unacceptable denial of his
civil rights" is a condemnation.  I see no limitations in it; the
statement would seem to apply to anyone who engaged in such action,
*including the demonstrators who beat up the audience and destroyed
Irving's books in an effort to deny Irving the opportunity to state his
case*.  Is the point now sufficiently clear, or do I have to use words of 
one syllable?

    Please enroll in a remedial reading course, Ross.


-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


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Article: 18468 of alt.revisionism
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From: smullins@cidmac.ecn.purdue.edu (Scott H Mullins)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Our old buddy, how we miss him
Date: 31 Oct 1994 14:59:16 GMT
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network
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In article  k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy) writes:
[del]
>Berg didn't get paid for his articles in the JHR?  Or has Berg stopped
>writing?

Hey, speak of the devil. I was just wondering what happened to
our old friend. Where did Berg  go off to?

--
Scott
smullins@ecn.purdue.edu


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Article: 18493 of alt.revisionism
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From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Faurisson's beating
Date: Wed, 02 Nov 1994 16:54:15 -0400
Organization: University of Michigan
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codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) wrote:

> Comments by Faurisson:
> 
> On "Radio J" [Jewish Radio],

How can I find out if any of my local radio stations carry "Radio J"?

> Serge Klarsfeld exactly said: "It is not 
> that surprising, since someone who has been provoking the Jewish 
> community for years must expect this kind of event.  One cannot insult 
> the memory of the victims without consequences.  It is something, I would 
> say regrettable, perhaps, but normal and natural."

I agree with the first half of that statement.  Just as the KKK can't
march without expecting to have demonstrators, so Holocaust-deniers
can't spread their lies without expecting to have fringe elements do
what fringe elements always do.  Fact of life, here in 1994.

If it were 1945 and Mr. Faurisson were in France spreading his Nazi-
apologist propaganda, I suspect he wouldn't just have gotten his face
smashed in;  he'd probably just be killed.  Fact of life for 1945.

I would delete the word "perhaps" after "regrettable."  It _is_
regrettable that anyone resorts to violence to attempt to stifle a
point of view.  I think it's sad, sick, and wrong that fringe elements
try to end ideological debates with violence.  If they were found and
brought to trial, I'd demand that they be prosecuted exactly as any
other assault charge is prosecuted.  They'd probably be looking at many
years in prison for attempt to maim, if they really threw acid in his
face (or did they "pour" it? was that a mistranslation?).  And they'd
deserve many years.

"Normal and natural"?  Well...I can see where Mr. Klarsfeld is coming
from, but I wouldn't have phrased it that way.
-- 
 Jamie McCarthy   Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu   AppleLink: j.mccarthy
 "I am taking landpost's spelling as correct,
  I realize that is not risk-free"  - Daniel Rice


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Article: 18494 of alt.revisionism
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From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: For the record
Date: 2 Nov 1994 16:00:47 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
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In article ,
Ross Vicksell  wrote:
>Mcfee is talking about Irving; He's not talking about the revisionists in
>the audience, among whom was Wermacht veteran Max Kersten, who got beat 
>up by anti-Revisionist hoodlums.

    I see - you are saying that because Gordon mentioned Irving's name,
but not Kersten's (even though the same people who violated Kersten's
rights were at the same time violating Irving's rights, and were condemned
for that) to satisfy you Gordon must condemn them a *second* time (and a
third, and a fourth, and so on, once for each person besides Irving whose
rights they have violated) or else Gordon is still guilty of failing to
condemn them. 

    Very well, Ross.  If you insist.  I have previously stated my
opposition to suppression of revisionism, but it appears I haven't worded
it the way you would approve of - I mentioned Faurisson but not Zundel, so
I guess to you that means I have failed to condemn the suppression of
Zundel.  I suppose I'd better remedy that defect.  I would have *hoped*
that to any REASONABLE person, my condemnation in the latter case was
implicit due to the *principles* on which the former condemnation was
clearly based, but it appears that's not good enough for you.  Fine.  
Anything to make you happy.

    I hereby condemn the initiation or threat of violence against any
person and/or property, whether by a governmental entity or agent or
private group or individual, for the purpose of denying anyone their civil
rights, or exacting retribution against them for the exercise thereof,
including (but not limited to) the right of free speech.  The failure to
mention any specific victim of suppression is not intended to imply
approval of the suppression of that individual's rights.  The failure to
mention any specific incidence of suppression is not to be taken as
approval of that incidence.  I condemn violators for each time they commit
such a violation and for each person whose rights they violate.  The
persons whose rights have been violated, and therefore the violation of
which I condemn, include (but are not limited to) Ernst Zundel, Robert
Faurisson, Max Kersten, and Fred Leuchter.  The violators I condemn
include (but are not limited to) the governments of France, Canada and
West Germany, plus those individuals (whose names are not known to me) who
beat Faurisson and Kersten (and any other victim whose name is not known
to me).

    Free speech is defined to explicitly include the right to utter lies,
except those lies uttered for the purpose of obtaining money or other
tangible or intangible items or services of value under false pretenses -
i.e., criminal fraud.  Personally, I'm rather ambivalent about slander and
libel laws. 


    Is this wording finally acceptable to you Ross, or have you figured
out some way to twist this around to claim that I've still failed to fully
support your right to lie without fear of retribution?
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


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Article: 18564 of alt.revisionism
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What Bradley Smith finds funny
Date: 6 Nov 1994 15:02:13 GMT
Organization: Brown University
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Wayne McGuire  wrote:
# dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) wrote (to "murungu"):

## You are a racist nut, plain and simple. You're also a liar.

# This deep thinking is truly invigorating to the soul.

So, when Wayne insults nearly everybody on this newsgroup as
an "imbecile", "goofy" etc, that's ok. It's also ok when he
makes ugly "jokes" about the medical problems of one of the
posters here. But when I criticize someone, he deletes everything
that I've written but for the last line and lashes out.

Why do you post here, Wayne? You've contributed nothing except 
for flames and off-topic debates. Quite a few posters seem to 
regard you as a joke (see the "how to become a Wayne McGuire"
thread). Much of it is due to your incredible arrogance and
tendency to regard yourself as far smarter and educated than
others who post here, an attitude not shared by many except
yourself.

What exactly do you hope to accomplish? I really fail to understand
this. You may say something interesting here and there, and it's a
pity you have to add so much insults and off-topic matters to
obscure it.


-Danny Keren.




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Article: 18571 of alt.revisionism
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Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What Holocaust could be so proved?
Message-ID: <38epdb$pc7@scunix2.harvard.edu>
From: stara@fas.harvard.edu (Felix Vagabond)
Date: 23 Oct 1994 22:51:23 GMT
References:  
  
 
Organization: Harvard University, Cambridge, Massachusetts
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  What else would you like beside pile of papers and documents all over
 the place just to satisfy your ego-trip.
 Please stop your demand rubbish, and look what people have been feeding
 you since you asked. 
 Greg what in the world would convince you? What really are you up to?

--
==============================================================================
  ( No memorial can ever exhibit or impart the holocaust of SIX MILLION Jews)

                   VIGILANS.ET AUDAX.SEMPER PARATUS.
              
==============================================================================



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Article: 18573 of alt.revisionism
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Faurisson's beating
Date: 4 Nov 1994 22:11:36 GMT
Organization: Brown University
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References: 
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Keywords: Faurisson

Ok, so what do we have?

We have "revisionists" who have no evidence who attacked Faurisson,
except for an anonymous call which doesn't count. They used to say
it was some "Betar" group, now they say it was not this group but
some other group. Hmm.

We have "leading revisionists" beating the crap out of each other
and threatening each other with loaded guns in the "IHR" office
in CA. This, according to an article in the "Spotlight". I haven't
seen any "revisionist" here deny this.

So?


-Danny Keren.




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Article: 18594 of alt.revisionism
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Denmark: Christopherson & extremist networking
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References: <1994Nov04.000212.9451@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
Date: Sun, 6 Nov 1994 07:37:13 GMT
Lines: 27

Ken Mcvay (kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca) wrote:

: KOLLUND, Denmark (AP) -- In his haven across the Flensborg fiord from
: Germany, Thies Christophersen has been quietly publishing magazines
: and books for years denying that the Holocaust ever happened. 

: The presence of the former German SS officer was long ignored by other

He was in the Wehrmacht, not the SS.

: residents of Kollund, a pleasant town filled with nearly identical
: bungalows and colorful front gardens. 

: But revelations about his international propaganda network and efforts
: by other German neo-Nazis to settle in Denmark exposed old wounds
: dating back to World War II, when the German army occupied the
: country. 

: Now, residents want Christophersen expelled to Germany.  Protesters
: have staged at least two violent rallies to demand that Denmark
: tighten its liberal press freedoms law, a backlash that has put the
: government in the position of defending the right of Nazis to speak
: out. 

And Denmark used to be the freest country in Europe.

             Ross Vicksell


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Article: 18655 of alt.revisionism
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From: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire)
Subject: Re: What Bradley Smith finds funny
Message-ID: 
Sender: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire)
Organization: The World @ Software Tool & Die
References:   <37e4f2$fif@access4.digex.net>  <38lh47$i5m@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
Date: Sun, 6 Nov 1994 14:04:32 GMT
Lines: 10

In article <38lh47$i5m@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>, dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) wrote:
// wrote:

//You are a racist nut, plain and simple. You're also a liar.

This deep thinking is truly invigorating to the soul.

Something has gone profoundly off the tracks when people spend
many megabytes arguing about jumping buckets of flesh. Screwed,
blued and tattooed. No doubt about it.


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Article: 18709 of alt.revisionism
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Denmark: Christopherson & extremist networking
Date: 8 Nov 1994 11:54:45 GMT
Organization: Brown University
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Ross Vicksell  wrote:

# FYI Christophersen is also a survivor of the Allied bombing of Dresden. 

So what?


-Danny Keren.




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Article: 18734 of alt.revisionism
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Denmark: Christopherson & extremist networking
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References: <1994Nov04.000212.9451@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>   
Date: Wed, 9 Nov 1994 00:05:17 GMT
Lines: 27

Danny A. Nijburg (dannya@xs4all.nl) wrote:
: In article  
: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) writes:
: >From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
: >Subject: Re: Denmark: Christopherson & extremist networking
: >Date: Tue, 8 Nov 1994 10:02:57 GMT

: >FYI Christophersen is also a survivor of the Allied bombing of Dresden. 

: >              Ross Vicksell

: Sorry to hear he is a survivor.

I guess there are good survivors and there are bad survivors.

If Fritz Berg were here, he would point out that Dresden was a REAL 
holocaust - the whole city turned into a crematory oven.

:                                          /\\\\           
: Danny A. Nijburg                         (@|@)          
: --------------------------------------ooO-(v)-Ooo-----
: Victorieplein 47-2                        ~~          
: 1078 PD Amsterdam- The Netherlands                                         
: Phone/Fax +31 20 671 7711             Do unto others.....
                                        before they do unto you.

                 Ross Vicksell


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Article: 18781 of alt.revisionism
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From: dannya@xs4all.nl (Danny A. Nijburg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Denmark: Christopherson & extremist networking
Date: Tue, 8 Nov 1994 12:04:25
Organization: DAN
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In article  codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) writes:
>From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
>Subject: Re: Denmark: Christopherson & extremist networking
>Date: Tue, 8 Nov 1994 10:02:57 GMT

>FYI Christophersen is also a survivor of the Allied bombing of Dresden. 

>              Ross Vicksell


Sorry to hear he is a survivor.

                                         /\\\\           
Danny A. Nijburg                         (@|@)          
--------------------------------------ooO-(v)-Ooo-----
Victorieplein 47-2                        ~~          
1078 PD Amsterdam- The Netherlands                                         
Phone/Fax +31 20 671 7711             Do unto others.....


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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Hoffman's back!
Message-ID: 
Followup-To: alt.revisionism,alt.usenet.kooks
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References: <1994Nov08.001849.8317@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>  <39rsle$32g@news.primenet.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 1994 00:15:42 GMT
Lines: 10

Brian Trosko (btrosko@primenet.com) wrote:

: Joy happy joy. Mike Hoffman's back from celebrating Guy Fawkes day! Hey, 
: Mikey, you're not planning on blowing up the Justice department anytime 
: soon, are you?

Spell it "justice", with a small "j".  Fifteen years of OSI terror.  And 
let us not forget Waco.

                       Ross Vicksell


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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Hoffman's back!
In-Reply-To: codfish@netcom.com's message of Fri, 11 Nov 1994 00:15:42 GMT
Message-ID: 
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
>Spell it "justice", with a small "j".  Fifteen years of OSI terror.  And 
>let us not forget Waco.

Well, go tell McGuire about Waco, he's the one who's insisted here,
repeatedly, that there exists no instance of Christians condoning the
killing of Christians. Maybe he thinks Janet Reno is a bhuddist...


-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Our old buddy, how we miss him
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References: <38matg$eh2@newsbf01.news.aol.com>  <3930o4$k8@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <1994Nov03.233056.8964@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
Date: Sat, 12 Nov 1994 00:28:38 GMT
Lines: 13

: In article <3930o4$k8@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> 
: smullins@cidmac.ecn.purdue.edu (Scott H Mullins) writes:

: >Hey, speak of the devil. I was just wondering what happened to
: >our old friend. Where did Berg  go off to?

Fritz is busy on another revisionist project.  He's also dissatisfied 
with the service he's getting fron his current (free) access provider.  
I've been beating the drum for Netcom.  

Anyway, Fritz assures me he'll return to the net by and by.

                Ross Vicksell


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From: st931690@pip.cc.brandeis.edu (Jesus Fonzarelli)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Faurisson's beating
Date: 13 Nov 1994 02:59:22 GMT
Organization: Brandeis University
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codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) said:
  
> Here's some material that Robert Faurisson just faxed me, in response to
> my question about press coverage of his beating five years ago.
> 
> First, two articles from North American papers:
  
These articles prove nothing. Faurisson was not beaten five years ago, 
nor was he ever beaten. 
  
> Robert Faurisson, 60, suffered a broken jaw and ribs and severe head
> injuries in the attack by three youths while he was walking his dog in
> thew town of Vichy.
  
There is no proof that Faurisson is 60 years old. Nor is there proof 
that he suffered a broken jaw and ribs, or that he even currently has, 
or has ever had, such "jaw" and "ribs" or, especially "head". 
 
> A hospital spokesman in Clermont-Ferrand, the central French city where
> he was transferred for surgery, said Mr. Faurisson's condition was
> stable.
  
Again, provide the *PROOF* that Mr. Faurisson is stable.
 
> Comments by Faurisson:
>
> I could find no mention of the attack in either the New York Times or
> the Washington Post.
  
Of course. This is because the "attack" never took place.


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Article: 18994 of alt.revisionism
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From: mattk@summit.novell.com (Kaufman M.E.)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "The Pledge" (was Re: Scholarly standards)
Date: 13 Nov 1994 15:10:02 GMT
Organization: Novell
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Ross Vicksell (codfish@netcom.com) wrote:

: Not "deniers", "revisionists".  Note how I scrupulously eschew 
: "exterminationists."

Not revisionists - deniers. You and your ilk have yet to successfuly
revise ANYTHING.  The only 'revisionists' working in this area are
the legitimate historians. You and Smith (and why do I remember Smith
using the phrase 'exterminationist?') are not even revisionists - you
yourself said your purpose is to promote debate not engage in it.

So perhaps you're not even a denier - cheap propagandist perhaps?
Feeder at the hate-the-Jews trough?

I do remember among the other frothing spittle your good pal
Fritz Berg posted was extensive use of 'exterminationist' and worse.

: I'm perfectly willing to do the right things citation-wise (note my 
: latest Faurisson post) but I reserve the right to post opinions, too.

No problem there Ross. All you've ever done is post opinions. Perhaps not
as virulent as some but opinions nevertheless.

:                    Ross Vicksell


Matt
--
Don't anthropomorph-|copyright 1994, mattk@summit.novell.com. All rights
ize computers. They |reserved. Permission for reproduction by USENET and like
don't like it.      |free facilities explicitly allowed. No other reproduction
                    |rights are granted or implied.


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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Michael Stein and Holocaust Exploitation
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
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References:  
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 1994 18:23:17 GMT
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The only Golux in the World, and not a mere Device (golux@mcs.com) wrote:

: Now let's look at the Leshem quote:
: > excerpt=
: > 
: > page.228=
: > 
: >      Israelis and American Jews fully agree that the memory of
: >      the Holocaust is an indispensable weapon--one that must be
: >      used relentlessly against their common enemy, no matter how
: >      high the cost to the Jewish psyche. Jewish organizations and
: >      individuals thus labor continuously to remind the world of
: >      it. In America, the perpetuation of the Holocaust memory is
: >      now a $100-million-a-year enterprise, part of which is
: >      government-funded. Books with Holocaust themes,
: >      documentaries, feature films, TV programs, memorials, and
: >      museums are a staple of America's cultural diet.

: Catch that "$100-million-a-year" reference?  It is clear from this excerpt
: that Leshem is saying that "perpetuation of the Holocaust memory" has come
: to COST $100 million a year.  That's expense, Wayne, not income.  This
: becomes clear on reference to "Jewish organizations and
: individuals...labor[ing] continuously," and the fact that some of the
: effort is "government-funded."  Leshem's talking about the costs of
: ensuring that the Holocaust is not forgotten.

So Shoah Business in a $100-million-a-year enterprise in the good old U.S.
of A. My guess is that it's not operating at a loss; people are paying
money to see Schindler's List or to buy the latest Holocaust horror novel. 

             Ross Vicksell


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From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Michael Stein and Holocaust Exploitation
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 1994 07:04:24 -0500
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codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) wrote:

> So Shoah Business in a $100-million-a-year enterprise in the good old U.S.
> of A. My guess is that it's not operating at a loss; people are paying
> money to see Schindler's List or to buy the latest Holocaust horror novel. 

Ross, are there any substantive revisionist arguments you want to talk
about?  Or are you just here to blather about how much money Steven
Spielberg makes?

Any time you want to talk about the issues, Ross, you just let us know.
-- 
 Jamie McCarthy   Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu   AppleLink: j.mccarthy
 "Golux really is a vacuous blatherer."  "I know the
  phenomenon well...when a certain type of user gets his or her back against
  the wall...the personal...abuse begins to flow in torrents."  - W. McGuire


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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: The Squealing of Hoffman
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References:   
Date: Sun, 20 Nov 1994 03:12:29 GMT
Lines: 29

John Baglow (ai433@FreeNet.Carleton.CA) wrote:
: ... The original issue was whether or not
: Canada had a law like Germany's. We don't. Other, vaguer statutes have had
: to be employed instead. McVay was stating a fact. He has never claimed
: that other laws on the books can't be employed against hatemongers. They
: have been and they are being...

Love that "hatemongers."  By any reasonable standards the real hatemongers 
are the ones who don't just talk hatred but do it; assault plus battery, 
sort of.  I'm talking about the Holocaust promoters who destroyed the 
careers of Ernst Zuendel, Fred Leuchter, and Robert Faurisson, among others.

: >>BTW, the sooner Doug Collins is behind bars, the better. This gentleman
: > 
: >Look at this disgusting statement. Incredible. Absolutely incredible. 
: >And this
: >person wishes to take the high moral ground 
: >while demanding the imprisonment
: >of a journalist?

: Calling Doug Collins a "journalist" 
: is like calling Adolf Hitler a "painter."


He sure had that Vancouver paper fooled then.  And BTW, I don't think 
Hitler's paintings are that bad.


         Ross Vicksell


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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Greg reply to Dave in Scotland
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
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Date: Mon, 21 Nov 1994 19:34:26 GMT
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I'm posting this for Greg Raven, who is having posting problems.

               Ross Vicksell

>From: cendbj@clust.hw.ac.uk (Dave)
>Subject: A Few Questions for Revisionists
>Date: Fri, 4 Nov 1994 10:39:46 GMT
>
>1. Why has NOBODY who was involved in huge operation that the "hoax" must have
>been ever come forward and said "We made it all up - the Jews told us to do
>it". This would appear to me to be a more relevant question now that communism
>in Easterm Europe is finished, and people in the former Soviet Bloc are more
>free to speak.

You are assuming facts not in evidence, that is that there is a "hoax,"
and that it is being perpetrated on a conscious level. Some people do
refer to the endless retelling of obviously false Holocaust stories as a
"hoax," so we can let that go for now. However, the conscious intent
aspect is not so easily dismissed. 

The "hoax" (by which I mean the process of endlessly retelling obviously
false Holocaust claims) is generally supported by those who have something
to gain by perpetrating the hoax, and nothing to gain by refuting it. There
is immense power to be had by convincing others that one has experienced
the ultimate victimization. There are also psychological aspects involved.
It can be difficult to understand the dynamics of how this works, but a
good analogy can be seen in the recent waves of "repressed memories" on the
part of adults (usually women) who suddenly "remember" that they were
sexually molested (and worse) by their fathers. Obviously, there is no
conspiracy on the part of women to gain control through the telling of
these stories, yet the stories are virtually always false, and women
continue to come up with them. Furthermore, the more one probes the alleged
incidents of abuse, the more graphic and bizarre the stories become. (For
more on this, see The New York Review of Books, issues of Nov 17 and Dec
1.) A similar dynamic is, of course, at work in children's testimony about
alleged sexual abuse, as in the McMartin preschool case.

The bottom line is, I don't claim that there is a conspiracy or plot to
perpetrate a Holocaust hoax on the world, just as I do not think that
people engage in conspiracies to buy more Fords than Chevrolets, etc. In
fact, I really don't care what people SAY about what happened, unless it
can be backed up with hard facts. The claim is made that the Nazis murdered
millions of Jews and millions of others in gas chambers. Fine. Now let's
see the gas chambers, for without the homicidal gas chambers, there could
have been no mass homicidal gassings.

>2. How many of the documents pertaining to the holocaust have been proven to
>be fake? This has to include documents which were in the hands of Eastern Bloc
>countries - I don't think it's enough to say "The russians were such good
>forgers, we wouldn't be able to spot a Soviet forgery", since that implies
>that ANYTHING that comes from the Eastern Bloc has to be treated as a forgery.
>I think that an accurate description of how the documents were forged, and by
>whom would suffice.

A few have been proven to be fake, perjured, the result of torture, or of
lying. The Franke-Gricksch Resettlement Action report is obviously a fake,
the "testimony" of Ohlendorf is obviously perjured, the Hoess confession is
obviously due to torture, and most of the so-called eyewitness accounts are
lies. This is not the important issue, however. The important issue is that
there are no documents, fake or otherwise, that show a Nazi gas chamber.
How is it that we know to the pfennig the cost of the kennels at Auschwitz,
but there is not a trace of the weapon that allegedly murdered millions
upon millions?

>3. The Jews of Europe were up-rooted (not exterminated) and subjected to
>special handling, and then relocated to the East. Where are they? Why have
>none of them come home? If someone forcibly removed me from Scotland to (say)
>Bulgaria during a war, and the war ended leaving me free to return, I would. I
>like freezing cold wind and rain.

You are simultaneously conflating several issues, and projecting onto
others what you yourself feel. Many of those relocated to the East did not
survive, although the Germans (like the Soviets) took many of the Jews with
them when they retreated. Demographics for the Jews during this time are
extremely difficult, but it appears that many of them emigrated to Israel,
the U.S., or elsewhere, and of course we now know that there are many more
Jews in the former Soviet Union than was previously admitted. Again,
however, the question isn't about the relocated Jews, it is about Jews who
allegedly died in gas chambers. When you look at the numbers of Jews
missing of all causes, you see that there simply are not enough "missing"
Jews to support the notion that the Nazis were murdering Jews left and
right ... that is, many Jews did survive the war.

>4. Why does the FDR acknowledge guilt for the crimes of the Nazis (note: not
>the crimes of the Germans)? Surely the German state / Government is the one
>that is most likely to know what really happened. Why pay for it for
>decades? Why not say "It never happened, and heres the proof. Now get off our
>backs, and let us go back to making big cars".

Trick question. After the war, there was a period of de-Nazification,
during which those who wished to be in power had to buy into a certain
mind-set. Also, some of them were no doubt predisposed to believe
Holocaust extermination stories; the fact that they had heard nothing
about such exterminations during the war being of little consequence. As
mentioned above, however, the question is not why the German government
acknowledged guilt, but what actually happened. During the witchcraft
trials, people who swore they were not Satan-worshipers and thus had
nothing to confess, nevertheless would change their tune after a few
rounds on the rack (or other torture devices), and later publicly admit
their dealings with Satan and kissing the anus of a goat. Does this mean
that Satan actually exists? How about flying saucers? We have a lot of
people who claim to have seen them, and even some photographs of the
saucers themselves! 

It bears repeating that in a way it hardly matters what people believe or
what they say, if their beliefs and utterances do not conform with the laws
of nature and physical facts. Show us or draw us a picture of a Nazi gas
chamber. After we have established that one of the most horrible weapons of
mass destruction actually existed, we will have plenty of time for
"testimonies" and other secondary items.


Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)



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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Greg Raven's Admiration for Hitler (was: Re: Greg reply to Dave
Date: 21 Nov 1994 23:18:20 GMT
Organization: Brown University
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References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu




 
 Category 15,  Topic 4
 Message 33        Fri Mar 13, 1992
 G.RAVEN                      at 03:02 EST
 
 My only concern is in  going after the
 facts. As such, I am not interested in defending  Adolf Hitler to my dying
 breath. I will say, however, that he was a  great man ... certainly greater
 than Churchill and FDR put together,  and possibly the greatest leader of our
 century, if not longer. This  is not to say that he was perfect, but he about
 the best thing that  could have happened to Germany.





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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Greg reply to Dave in Scotland
Date: 21 Nov 1994 23:20:12 GMT
Organization: Brown University
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References:  <3ar9os$38t@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu


IHR employee Greg Raven, a self-admitted admirer of Adolf Hitler
(see next article) writes:

# The "hoax" (by which I mean the process of endlessly retelling 
# obviously false Holocaust claims) 

Such as? Is the following "false"? If so, can Raven prove it?

Testimony of SS-Obersturmfuehrer Dr. Fritz Klein 
[Quoted in "The Belsen Trial" - Edited by R. Phillips, William Hodge
and Company, 1949.p. 717]
----------------------------------------------------------------
When transports arrived at Auschwitz it was the doctor's job to pick
out those who were unfit or unable to work. These included children, 
old people and the sick. I have seen the gas chambers and crematoria 
at Auschwitz, and I knew that those I selected were to go to the gas
chamber. But I only acted on orders given to me by Dr. Wirtz.

 .
 .
 .

I never protested against people being sent to the gas chambers, 
although I never agreed. One cannot protest when in the army.



# There is immense power to be had by convincing others that one 
# has experienced the ultimate victimization. 

So maybe *all* atrocity stories are a "hoax"? All the suffering
of people under communism? All the suffering of German civilians
in the war, etc?

Of course, Greg "Hitler was a great man" Raven will never claim
this. His "argument" extends to all atrocity tales; what he
says makes as much sense as saying that "Dresden wasn't bombed,
Germans invent that story so people will feel sorry for them".

But our little Hitler admirer does not apply his "argument" to
Dresden; he applies it only to whitewash Nazis. Why? Because he
loves Nazis, and wants to prove that they did nothing bad.

Also, what about the SS men who confessed? What did, say, Hans
Stark have to gain by telling a Frankfurt courtroom how he
poured Zklon-B into a chamber full of people? What did SS man
Boeck have to gain by telling how shocked he was to see his
fellow SS men gas children? Stark, Boeck, and all the others;
what did they have to gain? 

The Poles who lived by the camps and told of what happened
in them - what did they have to gain?

Even if one assumes some people might make up such stories - but
*all* of them? And not one came forward and said "this is not true"?

We are asked to believe Raven and his ilk, who were never in a 
Nazi death camp during the war, and not to believe all the
people who were in them at that time? Is this some sick joke?

# The claim is made that the Nazis murdered
# millions of Jews and millions of others in gas chambers. 
# Fine. Now let's see the gas chambers, for without the homicidal 
# gas chambers, there could have been no mass homicidal gassings.

Some gas chambers are still there, some have been destroyed.
This has been repeated here many times.

Can Raven show us the bombs that destroyed Dresden? The means
that were used to kill millions of people in communist countries?
The A-bomb that exploded over Hiroshima?

# The Franke-Gricksch Resettlement Action report is obviously a fake

Obvious, of course, to Raven. Not to me. Not to people who,
unlike Raven, are professional historians.

# the "testimony" of Ohlendorf is obviously perjured, 

Huh? What? Why is it "perjured"?

# the Hoess confession is obviously due to torture, 

There is no evidence that Hoess' autobiography is "due to
torture", and reading it makes it quite obvious that he was
not tortured and that he wrote it out of his own free will.

# and most of the so-called eyewitness accounts are lies. 

Really? Let's start with a few, that were posted here often:


>From the statement of Hans Stark, registrar of new arrivals, Auschwitz:
[Quoted in "'The Good Old Days'" - E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The 
Free Press, NY, 1988, p. 255].
--------------------------------------------------------------
At another, later gassing -- also in autumn 1941 -- Grabner ordered
me to pour Zyklon B into the opening because only one medical orderly
had shown up. During a gassing Zyklon B had to be poured through both
openings of the gas-chamber room at the same time. This gassing was
also a transport of 200-250 Jews, once again men, women and children.
As the Zyklon B -- as already mentioned -- was in granular form, it
trickled down over the people as it was being poured in. They then
started to cry out terribly for they now knew what was happening to
them. I did not look through the opening because it had to be closed
as soon as the Zyklon B had been poured in. After a few minutes there
was silence. After some time had passed, it may have been ten to
fifteen minutes, the gas chamber was opened. The dead lay
higgledy-piggedly all over the place. It was a dreadful sight.


SS-Doctor Kremer about his days at Auschwitz: 
[Quoted in 'The Good Old Days' - E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The 
Free Press, NY, 1988, p. 258].
-------------------------------------------------------------------
I remember I once took part in the gassing of one of these groups
of women [from the women's camp in Auschwitz]. I cannot say how
big the group was. when I got close to the bunker I saw them
sitting on the ground. They were still clothed. As they were
wearing worn-out camp clothing they were not left in the undressing
hut but made to undress in the open air. I concluded from the
behavior of these women that they had no doubt what fate awaited
them, as they begged and sobbed to the SS men to spare them their
lives. However, they were herded into the gas chambers and gassed.
As an anatomist I have seen a lot of terrible things: I had had
a lot of experience with dead bodies, and yet what I saw that
day was like nothing I had ever seen before. Still completely
shocked by what I had seen I wrote on my diary on 5 September 
1942: "The most dreadful of horrors. Hauptscharfuehrer Thilo was
right when he said to me today that this is the 'anus mundi', the
anal orifice of the world". I used this image because I could not
imagine anything more disgusting and horrific.


Testimony of SS private Boeck:
[Extracted from "Der Auschwitz Prozess", by Hermann Langbein,
Vol. I, quoted in "Auschwitz: Technique and operation of the gas 
chambers - J.C Pressac, the Beate Klarsfeld Foundation, NY, 1989,
p. 181].
------------------------------------------------------------------
Q: were you present at a gassing operation one day?

A: Yes, it was one evening. I accompanied the driver Hoeblinger. A
   transport had arrived from Holland and the prisoners had to
   jump from the wagons. They were well-off Jews. There were
   women with Persian furs. They arrived by express train. The
   trucks were already there, with wooden steps before them, and
   the people climbed aboard. Then they all started off. In the
   place Birkenau once stood, there was only a long farmhouse
   (Bunker 2) and beside it four or five big huts. Inside, the
   people were standing on clothes which were building up on
   the floor. The block leader and the sergeant, carrying a cane,
   were there. Hoeblinger said to me 'lets go over there now'. There
   was a sign 'to disinfection'. He said 'you see, they are bringing
   children now'. They opened the door, threw the children in
   and closed the door. There was a terrible cry. A member of the
   SS climbed on the roof. The people went on crying for about
   ten minutes. Then the prisoners opened the doors. Everything
   was in disorder and contorted. Heat was given off. the bodies
   were loaded on a rough wagon and taken to a ditch. The next 
   batch were already undressing in the huts. After that I didn't
   look at my wife for four weeks.



Can Raven prove that one of these testimonies is a "lie"?

# This is not the important issue, however. 

Oh, it's not?

# The important issue is that there are no documents, fake or 
# otherwise, that show a Nazi gas chamber.

Of course there are.

# How is it that we know to the pfennig the cost of the kennels at 
# Auschwitz, but there is not a trace of the weapon that allegedly 
# murdered millions upon millions?

Not a trace? There are numerous blueprints of the crematoriums
and the furnaces; there are photographs of them.

Five huge crematoriums, 52 cremation furnaces. And we're supposed
to believe no mass murder was taking place? 

# Demographics for the Jews during this time are
# extremely difficult, but it appears that many of them emigrated 
# to Israel, the U.S., 

Nonsense. There was hardly any increase in the Jewish population
of the US during and after the war, and in 1948 there were 600,000 
Jews in Israel (compared to about 400,000 before WW2).

# and of course we now know that there are many more
# Jews in the former Soviet Union than was previously admitted. 

We know? Who knows? 


-Danny Keren.



From oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!galaxy.ucr.edu!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!scripps.edu!misrael Sat Nov 26 21:43:22 PST 1994
Article: 19330 of alt.revisionism
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From: misrael@scripps.edu (Mark Israel)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Greg reply to Dave in Scotland
Date: 23 Nov 1994 09:31:24 GMT
Organization: The Scripps Research Institute, La Jolla, California, USA
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In article , Ross Vicksell posts for Greg Raven:

> You are assuming facts not in evidence, that is that there is a "hoax,"
> and that it is being perpetrated on a conscious level. Some people do
> refer to the endless retelling of obviously false Holocaust stories as a
> "hoax," so we can let that go for now. However, the conscious intent
> aspect is not so easily dismissed. [...]
> The bottom line is, I don't claim that there is a conspiracy or plot to
> perpetrate a Holocaust hoax on the world, [...]

   So those who affirm that there were gas chambers, including all the
history professors, honestly believe that there were gas chambers, right?

> There is immense power to be had by convincing others that one has 
> experienced the ultimate victimization.

   Those who experienced the "ultimate victimization" are *dead*!

> [...] a good analogy can be seen in the recent waves of "repressed 
> memories" on the part of adults (usually women) who suddenly "remember" 
> that they were sexually molested (and worse) by their fathers. [...]
> A similar dynamic is, of course, at work in children's testimony about
> alleged sexual abuse, as in the McMartin preschool case.

   Those who testified at Nuremberg were adults, and their memories had
never been repressed!

> The important issue is that there are no documents, fake or otherwise, 
> that show a Nazi gas chamber.

   Jamie, can you hurry up with your WWW page so we can put this to rest?

> When you look at the numbers of Jews missing of all causes, you see that 
> there simply are not enough "missing" Jews to support the notion that the 
> Nazis were murdering Jews left and right ... 

   What about the 2.5 million names in the Yad Vashem archive?

> How about flying saucers? We have a lot of people who claim to have seen 
> them,

   How many space science professors believe in flying saucers?  Damn close 
to none of them.  How many history professors believe in the gas chambers? 
ALL OF THEM!

   Since you admit there is no conscious hoax, how do you explain that
difference?

--
misrael@scripps.edu			Mark Israel


From oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!uknet!festival!hwcee!pc09.cen.hw.ac.uk!cendbj Sun Nov 27 19:42:06 PST 1994
Article: 19404 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!uknet!festival!hwcee!pc09.cen.hw.ac.uk!cendbj
From: cendbj@clust.hw.ac.uk (David Johnston)
Subject: Re: Greg reply to Dave in Scotland
Message-ID: 
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References:  
Date: Thu, 24 Nov 1994 16:56:45 GMT

I did follow this up in a private email: at that point I hadn't seen this 
reply.

In article  codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) 
writes:

>I'm posting this for Greg Raven, who is having posting problems.

>               Ross Vicksell


>You are assuming facts not in evidence, that is that there is a "hoax,"
>and that it is being perpetrated on a conscious level. Some people do
>refer to the endless retelling of obviously false Holocaust stories as a
>"hoax," so we can let that go for now. However, the conscious intent
>aspect is not so easily dismissed. 

If you assert that the Holocaust did not happen, then those who come forward 
as eyewitnesses saying that it did, and that they saw part of it, must be 
lying. Therefore, either somebody told them what to say, they all made it up, 
or they are all suffering from a mass delusion. If it is a mass delusion, then 
it is unprecedented in history. If they all made it up, the stories show a 
remarkable consistancy. The only premise left is that it is a deliberate hoax. 
So who started this hoax? Who kept it going?


>The "hoax" (by which I mean the process of endlessly retelling obviously
>false Holocaust claims) is generally supported by those who have something
>to gain by perpetrating the hoax,

What did Hoess have to gain? 

> and nothing to gain by refuting it. There
>is immense power to be had by convincing others that one has experienced
>the ultimate victimization. There are also psychological aspects involved.
>It can be difficult to understand the dynamics of how this works, but a
>good analogy can be seen in the recent waves of "repressed memories" on the
>part of adults (usually women) who suddenly "remember" that they were
>sexually molested (and worse) by their fathers. Obviously, there is no
>conspiracy on the part of women to gain control through the telling of
>these stories, yet the stories are virtually always false, and women
>continue to come up with them. Furthermore, the more one probes the alleged
>incidents of abuse, the more graphic and bizarre the stories become. (For
>more on this, see The New York Review of Books, issues of Nov 17 and Dec
>1.) A similar dynamic is, of course, at work in children's testimony about
>alleged sexual abuse, as in the McMartin preschool case.

Flase analogy: False memory syndrome is based on fact - that is, the abuse of 
children exists. You are claiming there was no plan to murder Jews and others. 
In that case, what do those who claim they were in the camps, or were guarding 
the camps, base their memories on? 

>The bottom line is, I don't claim that there is a conspiracy or plot to
>perpetrate a Holocaust hoax on the world, just as I do not think that
>people engage in conspiracies to buy more Fords than Chevrolets, etc. In
>fact, I really don't care what people SAY about what happened, unless it
>can be backed up with hard facts. The claim is made that the Nazis murdered
>millions of Jews and millions of others in gas chambers. 

and by other means

>Fine. Now let's
>see the gas chambers, for without the homicidal gas chambers, there could
>have been no mass homicidal gassings.

>>2. How many of the documents pertaining to the holocaust have been proven to
>>be fake?  

>A few have been proven to be fake, perjured, the result of torture, or of
>lying. The Franke-Gricksch Resettlement Action report is obviously a fake,
>the "testimony" of Ohlendorf is obviously perjured, the Hoess confession is
>obviously due to torture, 

but was he tortured all the way through writing his autobiography? If not, 
your assertation of torture is worthless.

> and most of the so-called eyewitness accounts are lies. 

No, no, no. You've got to prove they are lies. Just saying they are lies 
doesn't make them lies. And surely you mean *all*. Saying most are lies 
implies some are true. Doesn't help your case much if you admit that.

>This is not the important issue, however. The important issue is that there 
> are no documents, fake or otherwise, that show a Nazi gas chamber.

If this is true, why didn't the hoaxers fake one? That would have made sense 
to me. Anyway this is what you define as the important issue. Others may 
disagree.

> How is it that we know to the pfennig the cost of the kennels at 
> Auschwitz,but there is not a trace of the weapon that allegedly murdered 
> millions upon millions?

>>3. The Jews of Europe were up-rooted (not exterminated) and subjected to
>>special handling, and then relocated to the East. Where are they? Why have
>>none of them come home? If someone forcibly removed me from Scotland to (say)
>>Bulgaria during a war, and the war ended leaving me free to return, I would. I
>>like freezing cold wind and rain.

>You are simultaneously conflating several issues, 

I know. It was an attempt at sarcasm.

> and projecting onto
>others what you yourself feel. Many of those relocated to the East did not
>survive, although the Germans (like the Soviets) took many of the Jews with
>them when they retreated. Demographics for the Jews during this time are
>extremely difficult, but it appears that many of them emigrated to Israel,
>the U.S., or elsewhere, and of course we now know that there are many more
>Jews in the former Soviet Union than was previously admitted. 

Give me some verifiable figures. I might believe you.

> Again,
>however, the question isn't about the relocated Jews, it is about Jews who
>allegedly died in gas chambers. When you look at the numbers of Jews
>missing of all causes, you see that there simply are not enough "missing"
>Jews to support the notion that the Nazis were murdering Jews left and
>right ... that is, many Jews did survive the war.

I realise many Jews survived. you say "when you look at the numbers". Ok, lets 
see them. The only ones I've seen posted recently (I can't remember who posted 
them) turned out to be projections of how many Jews there should be in Poland, 
given pre-war numbers.

>Trick question. After the war, there was a period of de-Nazification,
>during which those who wished to be in power had to buy into a certain
>mind-set. Also, some of them were no doubt predisposed to believe
>Holocaust extermination stories; the fact that they had heard nothing
>about such exterminations during the war being of little consequence. As
>mentioned above, however, the question is not why the German government
>acknowledged guilt, but what actually happened. 

No, my question was: Given that the German state is the one organisation with 
the greatest access to German war time material, why do they continue to admit 
guilt? Surely that can't be in their interest.

>During the witchcraft
>trials, people who swore they were not Satan-worshipers and thus had
>nothing to confess, nevertheless would change their tune after a few
>rounds on the rack (or other torture devices), and later publicly admit
>their dealings with Satan and kissing the anus of a goat. 

The thought of Helmut Kohl on the rack and kissing a goat's anus makes my 
stomach turn. What relevance does Satan-worshipping have?

> Does this mean
>that Satan actually exists? How about flying saucers? We have a lot of
>people who claim to have seen them, and even some photographs of the
>saucers themselves! 

Again, false analogy: no state has said flying saucers exist. Some people 
have. 

>It bears repeating that in a way it hardly matters what people believe or
>what they say, if their beliefs and utterances do not conform with the laws
>of nature and physical facts. Show us or draw us a picture of a Nazi gas
>chamber. After we have established that one of the most horrible weapons of
>mass destruction actually existed, we will have plenty of time for
>"testimonies" and other secondary items.


>Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)




From oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!sgiblab!wetware!kaiwan.com!kaiwan017.kaiwan.com!user Tue Nov 29 07:25:00 PST 1994
Article: 19484 of alt.revisionism
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Greg reply to Dave in Scotland
Date: Sat, 26 Nov 1994 01:23:00 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 122
Message-ID: 
References:  
NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan009.kaiwan.com

In article , cendbj@clust.hw.ac.uk
(David Johnston) wrote:
> If you assert that the Holocaust did not happen, then those who come forward 
> as eyewitnesses saying that it did, and that they saw part of it, must be 
> lying. Therefore, either somebody told them what to say, they all made it up, 
> or they are all suffering from a mass delusion. If it is a mass
delusion, then 
> it is unprecedented in history. If they all made it up, the stories show a 
> remarkable consistancy. The only premise left is that it is a deliberate
hoax. 
> So who started this hoax? Who kept it going?

You are again assuming facts not in evidence. I do not "deny" the
"Holocaust." What I DO say is that the Holocaust story, as it is currently
told, contains many errors and falsehoods. I believe that after correcting
the errors and falsehoods, what is left can still be called a "Holocaust."
However, there is no advantage to lying about the past. Revisionists are
simply attempting to bring historiography into accord with the facts.

> What did Hoess have to gain? 

To give just two examples, he had to gain 1) the cessation of the torture
to which he was subjected, and 2) the assurance that his family would not
be sent to the Soviet Union.
 
> Flase analogy: False memory syndrome is based on fact - that is, the abuse of 
> children exists. You are claiming there was no plan to murder Jews and
others. 
> In that case, what do those who claim they were in the camps, or were
guarding 
> the camps, base their memories on?

Yes, there is child abuse. That does not mean that every child was abused,
or that every adult who claims to have been abused as a child was abused.
The recent studies on this subject are quite clear that these "suppressed
memories" are often wrong. Similarly, just because there were homicidal
gas chambers in the United States during the war doesn't mean that Jews
were gassed by Nazis. Just because some Jews were killed by Nazis doesn't
mean that millions of Jews were killed in gas chambers. Anything as big as
the "Holocaust" must of necessity be constructed of smaller pieces. I am
merely asking to look objectively at the piece called "homicidal gas
chambers" to see what the correspondence there is between the so-called
eyewitness claims and testimonies on one hand, and with the physical
realities on the other hand.

> but was he [Hoess] tortured all the way through writing his autobiography?
> If not, 
> your assertation of torture is worthless.

We do not know the precise conditions under which Hoess was kept. However,
we do know that between the tortured testimony (which is the most often
quoted) and the outright errors, Hoess' post-war utterances on this matter
must be approached with the utmost care ... something that the
exterminationists have failed to do until very recently, when, for
example, Deborah Lipstadt and Christopher Browning effectively discarded
Hoess as proof of the Holocaust extermination story.

> No, no, no. You've got to prove they are lies. Just saying they are lies 
> doesn't make them lies. And surely you mean *all*. Saying most are lies 
> implies some are true. Doesn't help your case much if you admit that.

You can prove it to yourself even without me. Read a so-called eyewitness
account. If it conflicts with physical reality, then it contains a lie. As
for the overall veracity of these so-called witnesses, I think you will
find that there are many parts of there stories that contain truthful
statements. However, when you get to statements dealing with the so-called
gas chambers, for which we have no physical evidence as to their
existence, you find errors, misstatements, and even lies.

> If this is true, why didn't the hoaxers fake one? That would have made sense 
> to me. Anyway this is what you define as the important issue. Others may 
> disagree.

I believe that the so-called gas chamber at Dachau was faked. However, if
you wish to know why this practice was not more widespread, you will have
to find a "hoaxer" and ask him. Remember please, that I do not ascribe to
the theory that there is a conspiracy (as it is commonly defined) to
spread false Holocaust extermination stories.
 
> I realise many Jews survived. you say "when you look at the numbers".
Ok, lets 
> see them. The only ones I've seen posted recently (I can't remember who
posted 
> them) turned out to be projections of how many Jews there should be in
Poland, 
> given pre-war numbers.

A discussion of wartime European Jewish demographics is far too complex to
hold online. I suggest you read Walter Sanning's "The Dissolution of
European Jewry" as a starting point, after which time you will see some of
the difficulties involved in this aspect of history.

> No, my question was: Given that the German state is the one organisation with 
> the greatest access to German war time material, why do they continue to
admit 
> guilt? Surely that can't be in their interest.

I cannot accept that as a given. Germany only recently regained control
over the Berlin Documentation Center, and many of the relevant documents
apparently ended up in the Soviet Union. Remember, too, that the Allies
took millions of tons of documents out of Germany after the war. Finally,
because of the emotional loading of questions about the Holocaust, anyone
caught researching this matter who does not subscribe to the traditional
line is subject to fines and imprisonment.

> Again, false analogy: no state has said flying saucers exist. Some people 
> have.

And what about Satan? Do you also claim that no state has ever claimed
that Satan exists? This is relevant because we are talking about the
demonization of the German people. The parallels between the post-war era
and the witchcraft trials are startling.

-- 
Greg Raven
greg.ihr@kaiwan.com
http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr
-----------------------------------------------------
For free information about the IHR, write to:
IHR, P.O. Box 241556, Newport Beach, CA 92659
Journal of Historical Review, $40 (6 issues per year)
The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, by Dr. Arthur Butz, $10 + $2 shipping


From oneb!kmcvay Tue Nov 29 09:38:22 PST 1994
Article: 19486 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!kmcvay
From: kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay)
Subject: Raven, Hoess, and the historians
References:   
Organization: The Old Frog's Almanac
Message-ID: <1994Nov29.173635.6038@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 94 17:36:35 GMT

In article  greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) writes:

>We do not know the precise conditions under which Hoess was kept. However,
>we do know that between the tortured testimony (which is the most often
>quoted) and the outright errors, Hoess' post-war utterances on this matter
>must be approached with the utmost care ... something that the
>exterminationists have failed to do until very recently, when, for
>example, Deborah Lipstadt and Christopher Browning effectively discarded
>Hoess as proof of the Holocaust extermination story.

Nonsense - the following, from an article previously posted here,
addresses this spurious claim, which Mr. Raven has also made in the
past:
	
   In December 1993, a three-page article on "revisionism" appeared in
   _Vanity Fair_.  A half-page discusses "the most sinister of the
   current revisionist arguments - if indeed it is an argument at
   all," Holocaust-denial.  (Hitchens, 117)  The author contacted Browning
   and Lipstadt to get their opinions of the Hoess statements. 

   Browning said, "Hoess was always a very weak and confused
   witness...the revisionists use him all the time for this reason, in
   order to try and discredit the memory of Auschwitz as a whole."
   (ibid.)  Weak and confused is one thing, but does Browning say
   that "the Hoess statements are useless?"  No.

   Lipstadt directed the article's author to her book _Denying The
   Holocaust_, p. 188, which merely points out what historians have
   known for decades:  the official Communist death total at Auschwitz,
   four million, conflicts with the historians' total (closer to
   1.5 million).  Hoess isn't even in Lipstadt's index;  she nowhere
   mentions him!  Yet Raven asserts that she has "admitted that the
   Hoess statements are useless."

   Ironically, the Hoess statement in question, far from destroying
   his credibility, was quite accurate.  In his testimony, Hoess said
   that 2.5 million were killed at Auschwitz.  But in his memoirs, he
   makes it clear that this estimate came from his superior officer,
   one Gruppenfu"hrer Glu"cks, who received it from Adolf Eichmann.
   Eichmann, and his deputy Gu"nther, he added, were the only ones who
   had access to the information needed to calculate such a figure -
   Hoess claimed that he never knew the number, and had no way to make
   an estimate.  (Bezwinska, 126-7) He later made it clear that he
   regarded the figure as "far too high," noting that "Even Auschwitz
   had limits to its destructive possibilities." (Ibid, 129)

   Hoess believed Eichmann to be mistaken, as he was.  The various
   guesses about the victim count, accurate or inaccurate, in no way
   affected Hoess' credibility when he described the gassing process
   itself:

      By the will of the Reichsfuehrer SS, Auschwitz became the
      greatest human extermination centre of all time...he himself
      gave me the order to prepare installations at Auschwitz where
      mass exterminations could take place, and personally to carry
      out these exterminations.  (Bezwinska, 89-90)

      Protected by a gas mask, I watched the killing myself.  In the
      crowded cells death came instantaneously the moment the Cyclon B
      was thrown in.  A short, almost smothered cry, and it was all
      over.  (Ibid., 93)

      The killing of these Russian prisoners-of-war did not cause me
      much concern at the time.  The order had been given, and I had
      to carry it out.  I must even admit that this gassing set my
      mind at rest, for the mass extermination of the Jews was to
      start soon and at that time neither Eichmann nor I was certain
      how these mass killings were to be carried out.  It would be by
      gas, but we did not know which gas or how it was to be used.
      Now we had the gas, and we had established a procedure.  (Ibid.,
      94)

   Although, as we have seen, Lipstadt doesn't even mention Hoess,
   she does include the following statement in her book... we think it
   provides an appropriate conclusion to this discussion:

      These works demonstrate how deniers misstate, misquote, falsify
      statistics, and falsely attribute conclusions to reliable
      sources.  They rely on books that directly contradict their
      arguments, quoting in a manner that completely distorts the
      authors' objectives.  Deniers count on the fact that the vast
      majority of readers will not have access to the documentation of
      make the effort to determine how they have falsified or
      miscontrued information. (Lipstadt, 111)

                           Works Cited

   Bezwinska, Jadwiga, Ph. D., and Danuta Czech M.A.  KL Auschwitz
      seen by the SS:  Hoess, Broad, Kremer.  Howard Fertig Inc.,
      New York, 1984.

   Hitchens, Christopher. "Whose History Is It?", Vanity Fair
      Magazine, December, 1993. 

   Lipstadt, Deborah.  Denying The Holocaust.  New York: Macmillan,
      1993.  Toronto: Maxwell MacMillan Canada.  ISBN: 0-02-919235-8 

-- 
"Mr XXXXXXX is obviously Jewish and a living  example of why the Nazis 
tried to remove Jews from Europe and short of that, into concentration 
camps for the duration of the war."        (Fritz Berg, June 26, 1994)
                         ==== Nizkor ====


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Article: 19495 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Deliberate starvation of Germans
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
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Date: Sat, 26 Nov 1994 19:59:02 GMT
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Why were German POWs detained for months after the war, in violation of 
the Geneva Accords?

                      Ross Vicksell


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Article: 19496 of alt.revisionism
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Greg reply to Dave in Scotland
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
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Date: Sat, 26 Nov 1994 20:23:40 GMT
Lines: 26

Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com) wrote:
: In article , cendbj@clust.hw.ac.uk
: (David Johnston) wrote:
: > If you assert that the 
: > Holocaust did not happen, then those who come forward 
: > as eyewitnesses saying that it did, and that they saw part of it, must be 
: > lying. Therefore, 
: > either somebody told them what to say, they all made it up, 
: > or they are all suffering from a mass delusion. If it is a mass
: > delusion, then 
: > it is unprecedented in history. If they all made it up, the stories show a 
: > remarkable consistency. 

Not remarkable at all.  They merely copy each others stories.

: > The only premise left is that it is a deliberate
: > hoax. 
: > So who started this hoax? 

 The Zionists, who wanted to establish a Jewish State in Palestine.

: > Who kept it going?

 The same.

                Ross Vicksell


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Article: 19497 of alt.revisionism
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Greg reply to Dave in Scotland
Date: 26 Nov 1994 21:12:53 GMT
Organization: Brown University
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References:    
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Professor Wilhelm Pfannenstiel, Waffen-SS hygienist, on a gassing 
at Belzec
[Quoted in 'The Good Old Days' - E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The 
Free Press, NY, 1988., p. 238-244]
----------------------------------------------------------------------
When I am asked about executions of Jews I must confirm that on 19 August
1942 I witnessed an execution of Jews at Belzec extermination camp. I
would like to describe how I came to be there. During my conversations
with SS-Brigadefuehrer Globocnik, he told me about the large
spinning-mills that he had set up in Belzec. He also mentioned that
work at this camp would considerably outstrip German production. When
I asked him where the spinning materials came from, he told me proudly
that they had come from the Jews. At this point he also mentioned the
extermination actions against the Jews, who for the most part were
killed at the the camp at Belzec...

During this first visit I was taken to around by a certain
Polizieihauptmann named Wirth, who also showed and explained to me the
extermination installations at the camp. He told me that the following
morning a new transport of about 500 Jews would be arriving at the
camp who would be channeled through these extermination chambers. He
asked me whether I would like to watch one of these extermination
actions, to which, after a great deal of reflection, I consented. I
planned to submit a report to the Reichsarzt-SS about the
extermination actions. In order to write a report I had, however,
first to observe an action with my own eyes. I remained in the camp,
spent the night there and was witness to the following events the next
morning.

A goods train traveled directly into the camp of Belzec, the freight
cars were opened and Jews whom I believe were from the area of Romania
or Hungary were unloaded. The cars were crammed fairly full. There
were men, women and children of every age. They were ordered to get
into line and then had to proceed to an assembly area and take off
their shoes...

After the Jews had removed their shoes they were separated by sex. The
women went together with the children into a hut. There their hair was
shorn and they had to get undressed... The men went into another hut,
where they received the same treatment. I saw what happened in the
women's hut with my own eyes. After they had undressed, the whole
procedure went fairly quickly. They ran naked from the hut through a
hedge into the actual extermination centre. The whole extermination
centre looked just like a normal delousing institution. In front of
the building there were pots of geraniums and a sign saying "Hackenholt
Foundation", above which there was a star of David. The building was
brightly and pleasantly painted so as not to suggest people would be
killed here...

Inside the buildings, the Jews had to enter chambers into which was
channeled the exhaust of a [100(?)]-HP engine, located in the same
building. In it there were six such extermination chambers. They were
windowless, had electric lights and two doors. One door led outside so
that the bodies could be removed.  People were led from a corridor
into the chambers through an ordinary air-tight door with bolts. There
was a glass peep-hole, as I recall, next to the door in the wall.
Through this window one could watch what was happening inside the room
but only when it was not too full of people. After a short time the
glass became steamed up. When the people had been locked in the room
the motor was switched on and then I suppose the stop-valves or vents
to the chambers opened.  Whether they were stop-valves or vents I
would not like to say. It is possible that the pipe led led directly
to the chambers. Once the engine was running, the light in the
chambers was switched off. This was followed by palpable disquiet in
the chamber. In my view it was only then that the people sensed
something else was in store for them. It seemed to me that behind the
thick walls and door they were praying and shouting for help.


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Article: 19498 of alt.revisionism
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Greg reply to Dave in Scotland
Date: 26 Nov 1994 21:13:13 GMT
Organization: Brown University
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Willi Mentz testifies about his days in Treblinka
[Quoted in 'The Good Old Days' - E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The 
Free Press, NY, 1988., p. 245-247]
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
When I came to Treblinka the camp commandant was a doctor named Dr. Eberl.
He was very ambitious. It was said that he ordered more transports
than could be "processed" in the camp. That meant that trains had to
wait outside the camp because the occupants of the previous transport
had not yet all been killed. At the time it was very hot and as a
result of the long wait inside the transport trains in the intense
heat many people died. At the time whole mountains of bodies lay on
the platform. The Hauptsturmfuehrer Christian Wirth came to Treblinka
and kicked up a terrific row. And then one day Dr.  Eberl was no
longer there...

For about two months I worked in the upper section of the camp and
then after Eberl had gone everything in the camp was reorganized. The
two parts of the camp were separated by barbed wire fences. Pine
branches were used so that you could not see through the fences. The
same thing was done along the route from the "transfer" area to the
gas chambers...

Finally, new and larger gas chambers were built. I think that there
were now five or six larger gas chambers. I cannot say exactly how
many people these large gas chambers held. If the small gas chambers
could hold 80-100 people, the large ones could probably hold twice
that number...

Following the arrival of a transport, six to eight cars would be
shunted into the camp, coming to a halt at the platform there. The
commandant, his deputy Franz, Kuettner and Stadie or Maetzig would be
here waiting as the transport came in. Further SS members were also
present to supervise the unloading: for example, Genz and Belitz had
to make absolutely sure that there was no one left in the car after
the occupants had been ordered to get out.

When the Jews had got off, Stadie or Maetzig would have a short word
with them.  They were told something to the effect that they were a
resettlement transport, that they would be given a bath and that they
would receive new clothes. They were also instructed to maintain quiet
and discipline. They would continue their journey the following day.

Then the transports were taken off to the so-called "transfer" area.
The women had to undress in huts and the men out in the open. The
women were than led through a passageway, known as the "tube", to the
gas chambers. On the way they had to pass a hut where they had to hand
in their jewellery and valuables..


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Article: 19499 of alt.revisionism
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Greg reply to Dave in Scotland
Date: 26 Nov 1994 21:13:34 GMT
Organization: Brown University
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References:    
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Letter from Dr. Erhard Wetzel to Reichskommissar Lohse, October 25, 1941
[Hitler and the Final Solution - G. Fleming, University of California
Press, 1984, p. 70]
------------------------------------------------------------------------
With regard to my letter of 18 October 1941, please be informed that
Oberdiensleiter [Chief Executive Officer] Brack from the Fuehrer's
Chancellory has stated his readiness to assist in the construction of
the necessary accommodations and gassing apparatuses, so they must
first be constructed. Brack's view is that, since construction of the
apparatuses within the Reich would present far greater difficulties
than on-site production, the most expedient course of action is to
send his people directly to Riga, in particular his chemist Dr.
Kallmeyer, who will take the necessary steps from there.
Oberdiensleiter Brack further points out that the procedure in
question is not without its hazards, and that therefore special safety
precautions are needed. Under these circumstances, I ask you to
contact Oberdiensleiter Brack in the Fuehrer's Chancellory through
your higher SS and Police leader. Please request from him the
dispatching of the chemist Dr. Kallmeyer and any further assistants
that are needed. I might further point out that Sturmbannfuehrer
Eichmann, the adviser on Jewish affairs in the Reich main security
office, is in complete accord with this procedure. According to the
information received here from Sturmbannfuehrer Eichmann, camps for
Jews will be set up in Riga and Minsk, where Jews from the Altreich
[Germany proper] might also be sent. Jews are currently being
evacuated from the Altreich to Lodz and other camps, from which those
fit for work will be transferred to work forces in the east. Given the
present situation, Jews who are not fit for work can be eliminated
without qualms through use of the Brack device. Incidents such as
those that took place during the shootings of Jews in Vilna, according
to a report I have on my desk, can hardly be sanctioned, keeping in
mind that the executions were undertaken openly, and the new
procedures assure that such incidents will no longer be possible. Jews
fit for work, on the other hand, will be transported to work forces in
the east. That the men and women in this latter group must be kept
apart from each other goes without saying. Please keep me informed as
to any further measures you take.


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Article: 19500 of alt.revisionism
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Greg reply to Dave in Scotland
Date: 26 Nov 1994 21:13:59 GMT
Organization: Brown University
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SS-Doctor Kremer about his days at Auschwitz: 
[Quoted in 'The Good Old Days' - E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The 
Free Press, NY, 1988, p. 258].
-------------------------------------------------------------------
I remember I once took part in the gassing of one of these groups
of women [from the women's camp in Auschwitz]. I cannot say how
big the group was. when I got close to the bunker I saw them
sitting on the ground. They were still clothed. As they were
wearing worn-out camp clothing they were not left in the undressing
hut but made to undress in the open air. I concluded from the
behavior of these women that they had no doubt what fate awaited
them, as they begged and sobbed to the SS men to spare them their
lives. However, they were herded into the gas chambers and gassed.
As an anatomist I have seen a lot of terrible things: I had had
a lot of experience with dead bodies, and yet what I saw that
day was like nothing I had ever seen before. Still completely
shocked by what I had seen I wrote on my diary on 5 September 
1942: "The most dreadful of horrors. Hauptscharfuehrer Thilo was
right when he said to me today that this is the 'anus mundi', the
anal orifice of the world". I used this image because I could not
imagine anything more disgusting and horrific.


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Article: 19501 of alt.revisionism
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Greg reply to Dave in Scotland
Date: 26 Nov 1994 21:14:23 GMT
Organization: Brown University
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>From the statement of Hans Stark, registrar of new arrivals, Auschwitz:
[Quoted in "'The Good Old Days'" - E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The 
Free Press, NY, 1988, p. 255].
--------------------------------------------------------------
At another, later gassing -- also in autumn 1941 -- Grabner* ordered
me to pour Zyklon B into the opening because only one medical orderly
had shown up. During a gassing Zyklon B had to be poured through both
openings of the gas-chamber room at the same time. This gassing was
also a transport of 200-250 Jews, once again men, women and children.
As the Zyklon B -- as already mentioned -- was in granular form, it
trickled down over the people as it was being poured in. They then
started to cry out terribly for they now knew what was happening to
them. I did not look through the opening because it had to be closed
as soon as the Zyklon B had been poured in. After a few minutes there
was silence. After some time had passed, it may have been ten to
fifteen minutes, the gas chamber was opened. The dead lay
higgledy-piggedly all over the place. It was a dreadful sight.

   * Maximillian Grabner, Head of Political Department, Auschwitz


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Article: 19502 of alt.revisionism
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Greg reply to Dave in Scotland
Date: 26 Nov 1994 21:14:48 GMT
Organization: Brown University
Lines: 35
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References:    
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Testimony of gas-van driver Walter Burmeister
[Quoted in 'The Good Old Days' - E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The 
Free Press, NY, 1988., p. 219-220]
------------------------------------------------------------
As soon as the ramp had been erected in the castle, people started
arriving in Kulmhof from Lizmannstadt in lorries... The people were
told that they had to take a bath, that their clothes had to be
disinfected and that they could hand in any valuable items beforehand
to be registered...

When they had undressed they were sent to the cellar of the castle and
then along a passageway on to the ramp and from there into the
gas-van. In the castle there were signs marked "to the baths". The gas
vans were large vans, about 4-5 meters long, 2.2 meter wide and 2
meter high. The interior walls were lined with sheet metal. On the
floor there was a wooden grille. The floor of the van had an opening
which could be connected to the exhaust by means of a removable metal
pipe. When the lorries were full of people the double doors at the
back were closed and the exhaust connected to the interior of the
van...

The Kommando member detailed as driver would start the engine right
away so that the people inside the lorry were suffocated by the
exhaust gases. Once this had taken place, the union between the
exhaust and the inside of the lorry was disconnected and the van was
driven to the camp in the woods were the bodies were unloaded. In the
early days they were initially burned in mass graves, later
incinerated... I then drove the van back to the castle and parked it
there. Here it would be cleaned of the excretions of the people that
had died in it. Afterwards it would once again be used for gassing...

I can no longer say what I thought at the time or whether I thought of
anything at all. I can also no longer say today whether I was too
influenced by the propaganda of the time to have refused to have
carried out the orders I had been given.


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Article: 19503 of alt.revisionism
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Greg reply to Dave in Scotland
Date: 26 Nov 1994 21:15:12 GMT
Organization: Brown University
Lines: 37
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References:    
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Letter from Dr August Becker to SS-Obersturmbannfuehrer Rauff, 16 May 1942
[Nazi Conspiracy and Aggression - Washington, U.S Govt. Print. 
Off., 1946, Vol III, p. 418]
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I ordered the vans of group D to be camouflaged as house trailers by
putting one set of window shutters on each side of the small van and
two on each side of the large vans, such as one often sees on farm
houses in the country. The vans became so well known, that not only
the authorities but also the civilian population called the van "death
van", as soon as one of these vehicles appeared. It is my opinion the
van cannot be kept secret for any length of time, not even
camouflaged...

Besides that, I ordered that during application of gas all the men
were to be kept as far away from the vans as possible, so they should
not suffer damage to their health by the gas which eventually would
escape. I should like to take this opportunity to bring the following
to your attention: several commands have had the unloading after the
application of gas done by their own men. I brought to the attention
of those S.K [Special Kommando] concerned the immense psychological
injuries and damages involved to their health that this work can have
for those men, even if not immediately, at least later on. The men
complained to me about head-aches which appeared after each unloading.
Nevertheless they don't want to change the orders, because they are
afraid prisoners called for that work could use an opportune moment to
flee. To protect the men from these damages, I request orders to be
issued accordingly.

The application of the gas is not undertaken correctly. In order to
come to an end as fast as possible, the driver presses the accelerator
to the fullest extent. By doing that the persons to be executed suffer
death from suffocation and not death by dozing off as was planned. My
directions have now proved that by correct adjustment of the levers
death comes faster and the prisoners fall asleep peacefully. Distorted
faces and excretions, such as could be seen before, are no longer
noticed.



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Article: 19504 of alt.revisionism
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Greg reply to Dave in Scotland
Date: 26 Nov 1994 21:15:29 GMT
Organization: Brown University
Lines: 94
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Testimony of Dr. Hans W. Muench 
[Quoted in "Trials of War Criminals Before the Nuernberg Military 
Tribunals" - Washington, U.S Govt. Print. Off., 1949-1953, Vol.
VIII, p. 313-321]
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Q. What was your first impression of Auschwitz when you arrived?

A. I had already heard about extermination camps, and particularly
   extermination camps for Jews, through reports over the Swiss radio
   that I listened to regularly in the preceding years, but since I
   considered this news to be propaganda, I did not believe it at the
   time, because the facts that were being described seemed too 
   terribly outrageous to me. When I arrived in Auschwitz, and had to
   convince myself personally that these reports were not exaggerated, 
   I was very much shaken emotionally.
 
 .
 .
 .


Q. Mr. witness, you were informed about the fact that human beings were
   gassed at Auschwitz?

A. Yes.

 .
 .
 .

Q. Mr. witness, for what reason did you not spread the fact that human
   beings were being gassed and exterminated?

A. I was asked this very often and also before the Supreme Court of 
   Cracow, and I can say in answer to it that that would have been a 
   completely useless undertaking which would have very shortly caused 
   me and my family to be liquidated very quickly, because the Gestapo 
   was so well organized and the threats for nonobservance of the 
   secrecy that surrounded the Auschwitz exterminations were so clearly 
   worded for members of the SS that everybody avoided telling even his 
   closest friend about it, because experience taught us that anybody 
   who talked about it in any way was very quickly found because the 
   Gestapo sniffed out every rumor very consistently that spread about 
   Auschwitz.

 .
 .
 .

Q. Mr. witness, what would you say if someone visited a plant in
   Auschwitz twice or three times a year for a period of one or two
   days? Would he then have to gain knowledge about these things?

A. I repeatedly witnessed guided tours of civilians and also of
   commissions of the Red Cross and other parties within the camp,
   and I was able to ascertain that the camp leadership arranged it
   masterfully to conduct these guided tours in such a way that the 
   people being guided around did not see anything about inhuman
   treatment. The main camp was shown only and in this main camp there
   were so-called show blocks, particularly block 13, that were
   especially prepared for such guided tours and that were equipped 
   like a normal soldier's barracks with beds that had sheets on them, 
   and well-functioning washrooms. 

 .
 .
 .

Q. Mr. witness, did you personally ever witness the gassing of human
   beings?

A. Yes, I saw one gassing at one time.

 .
 .
 .

Q. Mr. witness, you testified a little earlier that those who were sick
   in the camps, like in concentration camp Monowitz, would be sent to
   Auschwitz-Birkenau, but I wasn't quite clear as to why they were 
   sent to Auschwitz-Birkenau. I'd like to put just a question or two 
   to you on that. Mr. witness, those people who were in the hospital 
   at Monowitz and were shipped to Auschwitz-Birkenau because of an
   edema or phlegmon, for what purpose were they shipped to Birkenau?

A. As far as these people were Jews, I must state that most of them
   were gassed.


Q. And, Mr. witness, if they were sent from the hospital in Monowitz to
   Auschwitz-Birkenau, and they were Jews; and they were sent because 
   of weakness and collapse, why were they sent to Birkenau?

A. Also to be gassed.


From oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!news2.near.net!cat.cis.Brown.EDU!dzk Thu Dec  1 04:14:43 PST 1994
Article: 19505 of alt.revisionism
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Greg reply to Dave in Scotland
Date: 26 Nov 1994 21:18:40 GMT
Organization: Brown University
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <3b88ng$dju@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
References:    <3b88hh$dh9@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu

SS-man Theodor Malzmueller on the Chelmno extermination camp 
[Quoted in 'The Good Old Days' - E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The 
Free Press, NY, 1988., p. 217-219]
-----------------------------------------------------------------
When we arrived we had to report to the camp commandant,
SS-Hauptsturmfuehrer Bothmann. The SS-Haupsturmfuehrer addressed us in
his living quarters, in the presence of SS-Untersturmfuehrer Albert
Plate. He explained that we had been dedicated to the Kulmhof
[Chelmno] extermination camp as guards and added that in this camp the
plague boils of humanity, the Jews, were exterminated.  We were to
keep quiet about everything we saw or heard, otherwise we would have
to reckon with our families' imprisonment and the death penalty...

The extermination camp was made up of the so-called "castle" and the
camp in the woods. The castle was a fairly large stone building at the
edge of the village of Kulmhof. It was there that the Jews who had
been transported by lorry or railway were first brought...

When a lorry arrived the following members of the SS-Sonderkommando
addresses the Jews: (1) camp commandant Bothmann, (2) Untersturmfuehrer 
Albert Plate from North Germany, (3) Polizei-Meister Willy Lenz from
Silesia, (4) Polizei-Meister Alois Haeberle from Wuerttenberg. They
explained to the Jews that they would first of all be given a bath and
deloused in Kulmhof and then sent to Germany to work. The Jews then
went inside the castle. There they had to get undressed. After this
they were sent through a passage-way on to a ramp to the castle yard
where the so-called "gas-van" was parked. The back door of the van
would be open. The Jews were made to get inside the van. This job was
done by three Poles, who I believe were sentenced to death. The Poles
hit the Jews with whips if they did not get into the gas vans fast
enough. When all the Jews were inside the door was bolted. The driver
then switched on the engine, crawled under the van and connected a
pipe from the exhaust to the inside of the van. The exhaust fumes now
poured into the inside of the truck so that the people inside were
suffocated...




-Danny Keren.


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Article: 19506 of alt.revisionism
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Greg reply to Dave in Scotland
Date: 26 Nov 1994 21:19:02 GMT
Organization: Brown University
Lines: 20
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References:    <3b88hh$dh9@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu

Testimony of SS-Obersturmfuehrer Franz Hoessler  
[Quoted in "The Belsen Trial" - Edited by R. Phillips, William Hodge and
Company, 1949, p. 714-715]
----------------------------------------------------------------
Everyone in the camp knew about the gas chamber at Auschwitz, but at 
no time did I take part in the selection of prisoners who were to go to
the gas chambers and then be cremated. Whilst I was there selection of
prisoners for the gas chambers was done by Dr. Klein, Dr. Mengele and
other young doctors whose names I do not know. I have attended these
parades, but my job was merely to keep order. Often women were paraded
naked in front of the doctors and persons selected by the doctors were
sent to the gas chamber.

 .
 .
 .

I made many complaints to Hoess about the way people were being sent to
the gas chamber, but I was told it was not my business.



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Article: 19507 of alt.revisionism
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From: t08o@ganymede.sun.csd.unb.ca (Keith Morrison)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Deliberate starvation of Germans
Date: 26 Nov 1994 21:23:40 GMT
Organization: University of New Brunswick, Fredericton, NB, Canada
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <3b890s$ef@sol.sun.csd.unb.ca>
References:    
NNTP-Posting-Host: ganymede.sun.csd.unb.ca

In article ,
Ross Vicksell  wrote:
>Why were German POWs detained for months after the war, in violation of 
>the Geneva Accords?
>
>                      Ross Vicksell

I believe the Geneva accords (or possibly the Hague Conventions, it's
been a while since I have read them) state that prisoners would be
returned to the authorities of their state upon termination of a conflict.

Now since the entire Nazi government, which had been the sole authority
in the German state, was completely demolished what authorities were
the Western Allies (forget the Soviets, everyone agrees their behaviour
was despicable) supposed to turn the prisoners over to?

And even if I am mistaken in what the rules say *should* happen it must
be remembered that the situation was new.  At the time the Accords and
the Conventions were signed, I seriously doubt any of the signatories
would have forseen a situation where the leaders of a nation were 
willing to sacrifice every citizen to continue a war that they could not
win.  Germany could have surrendered months earlier and maintained
some semblance of authority over its own territory and saved hundreds of
thousands of lives in the process.

---------------------------------------------------------------

Keith Morrison

"I never evade answering any specific posts, because I never, ever
 commit anything to print that I am not willing to back up in detail."
                                       - Wayne McGuire, 7 Nov 1994

************************************************************
*t08o@unb.ca  *  My views are not those of the University  *
***************  of New Brunswick.  UNB never has views on *
*             *  on anything, ever.                        *
************************************************************


From oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!nic-nac.CSU.net!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!uunet!news1.digex.net!access3!karlpov Thu Dec  1 04:14:45 PST 1994
Article: 19508 of alt.revisionism
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From: karlpov@access3.digex.net (Charles R.L. Power)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Deliberate starvation of Germans
Date: 26 Nov 1994 16:25:54 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 22
Message-ID: 
References:  <3b6f0a$47i@krel.iea.com>    
NNTP-Posting-Host: access3.digex.net

codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) writes:

>Why were German POWs detained for months after the war, in violation of 
>the Geneva Accords?

Please quote the section of the Geneva Accords in question.  Please 
note, also, that the German soldiers in question were not in the formal 
status "POW".

I repeat a question I've posted a couple times before, which no 
revisionist yet has had the cojones to answer:

Do you believe, that 

1) Eisenhower was so scrupulous about the truth that he deliberately 
avoided mention of the gas chambers in his memoirs, due to his own doubts 
on the subject, 

AND, that

2) Eisenhower was such a scoundrel that he deliberately starved captive 
German soldiers to death?


From oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!uunet!winternet.com!winternet.com!joelr Thu Dec  1 04:14:46 PST 1994
Article: 19513 of alt.revisionism
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From: joelr@subzero.winternet.com (Joel Rosenberg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Deliberate starvation of Germans
Date: 26 Nov 94 21:50:14 GMT
Organization: StarNet Communications, Inc
Lines: 12
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References:  <3b6f0a$47i@krel.iea.com>    
NNTP-Posting-Host: subzero.winternet.com
X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #2 (NOV)

codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) writes:

>Why were German POWs detained for months after the war, in violation of 
>the Geneva Accords?

And, if true, what does this possibly have to do with your bizarre
claims that the Holocaust never happened?
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Joel Rosenberg       | For news about upcoming books,  | My opinions are mine.
joelr@winternet.com  | finger joelr@winternet.com      | Whose are yours?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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Article: 19516 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Deliberate starvation of Germans
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References:  <3b6f0a$47i@krel.iea.com>     
Date: Sat, 26 Nov 1994 21:51:31 GMT
Lines: 35

Charles R.L. Power (karlpov@access3.digex.net) wrote:
: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) writes:

: >Why were German POWs detained for months after the war, in violation of 
: >the Geneva Accords?

: Please quote the section of the Geneva Accords in question.  Please 
: note, also, that the German soldiers in question were not in the formal 
: status "POW".

Yeah, they were "DEF", a classification Ike invented for the occasion.  
Basically, the allies made up the rules as they went along - witness 
Nuremberg.


: I repeat a question I've posted a couple times before, which no 
: revisionist yet has had the cojones to answer:

: Do you believe, that 

: 1) Eisenhower was so scrupulous about the truth that he deliberately 
: avoided mention of the gas chambers in his memoirs, due to his own doubts 
: on the subject, 

He wasn't bright enough to have doubts.


: AND, that

: 2) Eisenhower was such a scoundrel that he deliberately starved captive 
: German soldiers to death?

Kerrect.

                   Ross Vicksell


From oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!codfish Thu Dec  1 04:14:48 PST 1994
Article: 19517 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Deliberate starvation of Germans
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References:     <3b890s$ef@sol.sun.csd.unb.ca>
Date: Sat, 26 Nov 1994 22:08:21 GMT
Lines: 56

Keith Morrison (t08o@ganymede.sun.csd.unb.ca) wrote:
: In article ,
: Ross Vicksell  wrote:
: >Why were German POWs detained for months after the war, in violation of 
: >the Geneva Accords?
: >
: >                      Ross Vicksell

: I believe the Geneva accords (or possibly the Hague Conventions, it's
: been a while since I have read them) state that prisoners would be
: returned to the authorities of their state upon termination of a conflict.

: Now since the entire Nazi government, which had been the sole authority
: in the German state, was completely demolished what authorities were
: the Western Allies (forget the Soviets, everyone agrees their behaviour
: was despicable) supposed to turn the prisoners over to?

The Germans had a legal government, under Admiral Karl Doenitz.  It was
the allies who quite arbitrarily declared it illegitimate, just as they
later waved their wand and turned the Waffen SS into a criminal
organization. 


: And even if I am mistaken in what the rules say *should* happen it must
: be remembered that the situation was new.  At the time the Accords and
: the Conventions were signed, I seriously doubt any of the signatories
: would have forseen a situation where the leaders of a nation were 
: willing to sacrifice every citizen to continue a war that they could not
: win.  Germany could have surrendered months earlier and maintained
: some semblance of authority over its own territory and saved hundreds of
: thousands of lives in the process.

Don't suppose the demand for Unconditional Surrender and the allies'
stated intention to stage massive "trials" of the German leaders had
anything to do with it.  The genocidal bombings by the western allies and
the mass rapes by the Soviets gave the Germans some idea of what to expect
if the allies won. 

Ike's "Crusade in Europe" made the twelfth century crusade look like a Sunday 
school picnic.

: ---------------------------------------------------------------

: Keith Morrison

: "I never evade answering any specific posts, because I never, ever
:  commit anything to print that I am not willing to back up in detail."
:                                        - Wayne McGuire, 7 Nov 1994

: ************************************************************
: *t08o@unb.ca  *  My views are not those of the University  *
: ***************  of New Brunswick.  UNB never has views on *
: *             *  on anything, ever.                        *
: ************************************************************

                  Ross Vicksell


From oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!unixg.ubc.ca!vanbc.wimsey.com!news.mindlink.net!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!uunet!news1.digex.net!access3!karlpov Thu Dec  1 04:14:49 PST 1994
Article: 19519 of alt.revisionism
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From: karlpov@access3.digex.net (Charles R.L. Power)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Deliberate starvation of Germans
Date: 26 Nov 1994 18:51:32 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 18
Message-ID: 
References:  <3b6f0a$47i@krel.iea.com>      
NNTP-Posting-Host: access3.digex.net

codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) writes:

>Charles R.L. Power (karlpov@access3.digex.net) wrote:
>: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) writes:

>: >Why were German POWs detained for months after the war, in violation of 
>: >the Geneva Accords?

>: Please quote the section of the Geneva Accords in question.  Please 
>: note, also, that the German soldiers in question were not in the formal 
>: status "POW".

>Yeah, they were "DEF", a classification Ike invented for the occasion.  
>Basically, the allies made up the rules as they went along - witness 
>Nuremberg.

I repeat: Please quote the section of the Geneva Accords in question.  
You say those accords were violated: put up or shut up.


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Article: 19523 of alt.revisionism
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From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Deliberate starvation of Germans
Date: 26 Nov 1994 23:00:15 -0500
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 7
Sender: news@newsbf01.news.aol.com
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References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf01.news.aol.com

I've learned that James Bacque wrote a detailed response to the Ambrose
critique of Other Losses that appeared in the New York Times.  It is
available through the Times Literary Service, which is apparently commonly
referred to by its initials.  I haven't been able to locate this service
and would be most interested in instructions on how to do so, or in
someone posting the entire text of Bacque's response.



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Article: 19524 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Hitler, Raven, and the IHR (was: Re: World wide web holoc
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References: <3b8bed$fip@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> <3b8bku$fk9@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> 
Date: Sun, 27 Nov 1994 03:59:17 GMT
Lines: 36

Charles R.L. Power (karlpov@access3.digex.net) wrote:
: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes:

: >It is interesting to see that this rabid dog also wrote in
: >his book "Mein Kampf" that he wished to see Jews exposed to
: >poison gas. It seems that even long before the Holocaust, he
: >considered not only killing the Jews, but also the methods
: >to be used.

: But this can be, reasonably, interpreted in the context of the mustard 
: gassing of WW1.  Hitler supposedly wished that the draft-dodging Jews had 
: been in the trenches to take the mustard gas into their lungs as had the 
: good German-Aryan soldiers.  (Hitler ignored the fact that Jews were, in 
: fact, well represented in the WW1 German army.  Something like Pat 
: Buchanan with some idiotic remark he made about the Gulf War a few years 
: back.)

: Christopher Browning, Yehuda Bauer and other solid Holocaust historians
: have been at some pains to establish that the Holocaust as we know it
: could not have been reasonably anticipated from prior Nazi pronouncements,
: which is why, in the thirties, Zionists were concerned not only with
: rescuing Jews from the Third Reich but also with making Palestine/Israel
: economically viable, since they saw little good in taking Jews from one
: hostile environment into another where they could not prosper. 

I have to agree. Furthermore, no Hitler order for the gassing of the Jews
has ever been found.  All David Irving's troubles started when he noted
this fact, in Hitler's War. 

Hitler was more concerned with what happened to Europe in the face of the 
red onslaught than what happened to the Jews.  Too bad the western allies 
didn't care a little more about the red tide.  (They did care to the 
extent of invading France before the Russians could sweep over all of 
Europe.)
                                   
                             Ross Vicksell


From oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!Germany.EU.net!EU.net!uunet!news1.digex.net!access3!karlpov Thu Dec  1 04:14:52 PST 1994
Article: 19527 of alt.revisionism
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From: karlpov@access3.digex.net (Charles R.L. Power)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Deliberate starvation of Germans
Date: 27 Nov 1994 01:05:30 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 19
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References:  <3b908f$2gr@newsbf01.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access3.digex.net

dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas) writes:

>I've learned that James Bacque wrote a detailed response to the Ambrose
>critique of Other Losses that appeared in the New York Times.  It is
>available through the Times Literary Service, which is apparently commonly
>referred to by its initials.  I haven't been able to locate this service
>and would be most interested in instructions on how to do so, or in
>someone posting the entire text of Bacque's response.

Oh, come on, Doubter, the NYT is our supposed national Newspaper of 
Record.  Any reasonably big library should have its index and microfilms 
going back to 1991.  Ambrose's piece appeared in the Feb. 24, 1991, issue 
of the NYT Book Review (I saved it at the time).  I'm not aware of any 
response, but I get the NYTBR rather spottily (e.g. when a local 
bookstore has gratis copies for customers), so I could have missed this.  
Let us know what you find.  Oh, and have you read the anthology of 
responses to Bacque co-editied by Ambrose?  I assume that this would be 
of more value than Ambrose's piece on its own, assuming you really are 
interested in getting at the truth.


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Article: 19528 of alt.revisionism
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From: karlpov@access3.digex.net (Charles R.L. Power)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hitler, Raven, and the IHR (was: Re: World wide web holoc
Date: 27 Nov 1994 01:22:52 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 25
Message-ID: 
References: <3b8bed$fip@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> <3b8bku$fk9@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>  
NNTP-Posting-Host: access3.digex.net

codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) writes:

>I have to agree. Furthermore, no Hitler order for the gassing of the Jews
>has ever been found.

I rather thought Irving's troubles stemmed from his conclusion that 
because no written order could be found, Hitler was not responsible, or 
even was unaware of what was happening.  This is of course ludicrous.  
Find Stalin's written orders to starve to death large numbers of 
Ukrainians.  If you can't find any, do you absolve him of responsibility?

>Hitler was more concerned with what happened to Europe in the face of the 
>red onslaught than what happened to the Jews.

Complete and utter bullshit.  Hitler was absolutely obsessed with Jews up 
to the moment of his death.  He was no opportunistic antisemite, as some 
of the Nazis may have been--he was completely, insanely sincere in his 
belief that they had to be exterminated.  He diverted resources from the 
war effort to the extermination campaign.  If fighting the red menace 
were his priority, he would have kept the Jews *at least* as a useful 
slave labor resource.  (Christopher R. Browning's "Nazi Ghettoization 
Policy in Poland, 1939-1941", in his THE PATH TO GENOCIDE: ESSAYS ON 
LAUNCHING THE FINAL SOLUTION, Cambridge University Press, 1992, is 
particularly instructive in this regard.)  Hitler's priority was clearly
the extermination of the Jews.



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