The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/v/vicksell.ross/1994/vicksell.0494


Archive/File: holocaust/codoh vicksell.0494
Last-Modified: 1994/06/01

Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Fred Leuchter
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
References:    , <2n8e05$98f@golem.wcc.govt.nz>, <2ndk2g$oqc@golem.wcc.govt.nz>

quirke_a@ix.wcc.govt.nz writes:


>   A) Do you believe that the accepted and documented version of the 
>       mass murder of between 5 and 6 million Jews is false ?
No.  Do you believe the accepted and documented (the Warren Commission 
Report) of the murder of John F. Kennedy by Lee Harvey Oswald, acting alone?

>   B) If so, how do you account for the vast amount of material, personal
>       testamonies and military documentation that supports it ?
Vast, Schmast.

            Ross Vicksell


Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Operation Sealion
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
References:  <2naoar$7mk@sol.sun.csd.unb.ca>
Date: Fri, 1 Apr 1994 09:04:37 GMT
Lines: 34

(Keith Morrison) writes:


>In article 4MJ@netcom.com, codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) writes:

>> I'm NOT engaging in a semantic quibble.  Hitler had no serious intentions 
>> of invading England, and Churchill knew it.  According to David Irving 
>> (page 379 of Churchill's War, V. 1): "This time Churchill was not to be 
>> outwitted.  Thanks to his codebreakers at Bletchley he now commanded a 
>> total,indeed Olympian, view which his subordinates were denied. ...  By
>> the end of July he certainly recognized that Sealion was a bluff."
>> 
>> Sure there was an Operation Sealion on paper, but so what?
>> 
>>             Ross Vicksell

>If the Germans were not intending to invade, why in hell did they begin
>bombing England in a big way?  
> ...
>The German air tactics during the Battle of Britain would tend to support
>the hypothesis that they were seriously considering an assault.

Initially, the Germans were bombing seaports and airfields, which did 
indeed look like they were softening up England's defences in preparation 
for an invasion.  Later, however, they switched to terror bombing of 
cities, like London and Coventry, partly in response to the repeated 
bombing of Berlin by the British.

As I understand it, the main purpose of the bombing was to convince the 
British of pointlessness of continuing the war.  Hitler very much wanted 
to make peace with England before he attacked Russia.

                 Ross Vicksell



Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Schindler's List Box Office Take
Message-ID: 
Keywords: Schindler's List  Holocaust Education
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
References:  <2nf5lt$brf@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu>
Date: Fri, 1 Apr 1994 10:37:44 GMT
Lines: 22

mutjl2@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu (Timothy J Lehnerer) writes:

>codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) writes:

>>Illinois and New Jersey already have compulsory "Holocaust Education" laws
>>that mandate the indoctrination of H.S. students in these states with the
>>"approved" version of the Holocaust Story.

>Ross, you're a liar. I went to a high school in Illinois and
>never once did I recieve any education on the Holocaust that
>you claim never happened. Sorry, pal. Strike one (thousand)
>for your side.

I have a revisionist friend who lives in the Chicago area.  Just a couple 
of years ago he had to fight to keep his three kids out of Holocaust 
education classes in Jr. High.  At the time he lived in some Northern 
suburb, Winnetka, I think.  

So maybe I spoke inprecisely when I said "high school" rather than "Jr. 
High."

                   Ross Vicksell


Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Evidence
Message-ID: 
Keywords: evidence
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
Date: Sat, 2 Apr 1994 00:55:52 GMT
Lines: 9

I'm posting this for Greg Raven a friend from the IHR. It's based on a 
discussion I was having with one of you, but is essentially 
self-contained and self-explanatory.

I'm trying to get the IHR people to hook into Internet, so they can do 
their own postings in the future.

                Ross Vicksell



Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Compulsory Holocaust "Education"
Message-ID: 
Keywords: Holocaust Education
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
Date: Sat, 2 Apr 1994 00:29:50 GMT
Lines: 8

I just talked to my revisionist friend in Chicago and he gave me the 
scoop on the Illinois compulsory Holocaust education law.  The law, which 
was passed in February of 1990, mandates that every public school must 
include a "unit" on the holocaust in its curriculum. Apparently a unit 
can be anything from a week's worth of exterminationist propaganda to 
just a passing mention of the Holocaust in the history unit on WWII.

           Ross Vicksell

Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!csus.edu!netcom.com!codfish
From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: note from Greg Raven
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
Date: Sat, 2 Apr 1994 18:52:12 GMT
Lines: 31

Somehow the note from the IHR's Greg Raven that I was supposed to post got 
lost in the shuffle.  Here it is, along with Greg's email address:

>From Greg_Raven@lamg.com Fri Apr  1 08:17:54 1994

> They had a well-organized system, and the 
> resources of a government at their disposal.

To say "they had a well-organized system" implies there ought to be some
documents of some kind establishing that organization. Organization is not
something that just happens all by itself, after all. The Germans were quite
good about documenting everything else (we know almost to the penny how much
they spent on dog kennels, for example), yet nothing about an extermination
program. To get the extermination scenario to fly, you must create all kinds
of other unrecorded activities (the cover-up operation). The simpler
explanation is that there was no extermination program.

>>     So we do in fact have the alleged weapon as physical evidence!  All 
> we are missing is a photograph of that weapon in use on people, or a 
> dead person on whom it was used.  But given the circumstances, I'm not 
> at all disturbed by that lack.

This is wrong. You cannot make conjectures about how things might have been,
and then say "we do in fact have the weapon." What you have is a fictional
construct, erected to support a preconceived notion of how you wish things
had been. This explains why you are not disturbed by the paucity of
evidence...you have already made up your mind, making the details relatively
unimportant.

Greg Raven


Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Re; Operation Sealion
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
References:  <2n05bt$gab@sol.sun.csd.unb.ca> 	 <4hbP7LC00WBO81fgRX@andrew.cmu.edu> 	 
Date: Sun, 3 Apr 1994 18:05:43 GMT
Lines: 31

bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein) writes:


>From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
>>Sure, the Germans were thinking seriously about invading Britain in mid 
>>1940, but they changed their minds.

>I don't claim to have a lot of knowledge on this specific topic, but
>is your history based on anything someone else could refer to? It just
>seems that claims like "they changed their minds" are a bit thin left
>standing alone.

>Are there at least two books out there which present these opposing
>viewpoints, even if incidentally?

>-- 
>        -Barry Shein

>Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
>Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD

I've already cited Irving, and I'm sure other historians will more or 
less back him up.  I really don't feel like getting too deeply involved 
in  Operation Sealion, unless the consensus here indicated that it's 
really important.

Several alt.revisionism posters have agreed that the Luftwaffe's switching
from military to civilian targets in the Battle of Britain was a clear
indication that Operation Sealion had been scrapped. 

                       Ross Vicksell


Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
From: CODOHbos@world.std.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: note from Greg Raven
Message-ID: 
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
References:  <2nkvq8$mf6@emoryu1.cc.emory.edu>
Date: Sun, 3 Apr 1994 03:34:48 GMT
Lines: 30

libwca@emoryu1.cc.emory.edu (Bill Anderson) writes:

>Ross Vicksell (codfish@netcom.com) wrote:
>: Somehow the note from the IHR's Greg Raven that I was supposed to post got 
>: lost in the shuffle.  Here it is, along with Greg's email address:

>: From Greg_Raven@lamg.com Fri Apr  1 08:17:54 1994

>: > They had a well-organized system, and the 
>: > resources of a government at their disposal.

>: To say "they had a well-organized system" implies there ought to be some
>: documents of some kind establishing that organization. Organization is not
>: something that just happens all by itself, after all. The Germans were quite
>: good about documenting everything else (we know almost to the penny how much
>: they spent on dog kennels, for example), yet nothing about an extermination
>: program. To get the extermination scenario to fly, you must create all kinds
>: of other unrecorded activities (the cover-up operation). The simpler
>: explanation is that there was no extermination program.

>Ross, does that fact that this is an unalloyed lie, and that the
>extermination program is well documented, bother you even a little
>bit?

>Bill

You guys can't have it both ways.  On one hand you say the extermination 
program was well documented and on the other you say they covered their 
tracks well and spoke about the alleged genocide of the Jews et.al. in 
euphemisms.


Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Re; Operation Sealion
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
References:  <2nn825$a09@sol.sun.csd.unb.ca>
Date: Mon, 4 Apr 1994 03:00:44 GMT
Lines: 11

(Keith Morrison) writes:

>However, Ross, as the beginning of this thread, you implied,
>and I'm sure others will verify this, that the German's had absolutely no
>intention of invading England at all.  That, at most, Sealion was simply
>a way of pressuring England.  That was wrong, so will you please go ahead
>and bloody well admit you were wrong?

I was wrong.

Ross Vicksell


Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Re; Operation Sealion
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
References:  <2nn825$a09@sol.sun.csd.unb.ca> ,<2no1vp$q6m@mits.mdata.fi> <2nq50v$t2f@golem.wcc.govt.nz>
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 1994 04:54:47 GMT
Lines: 27

quirke_a@ix.wcc.govt.nz writes:

>kauhunen@mits.mdata.fi (Kari Nenonen) writes:
>>Ross Vicksell  wrote:

>>>I was wrong.
>>>Ross Vicksell

>>Congratulations, Ross! That's a good start.

>   Yeah, congratulations.

>   Now, what was the evidence that made you change your view of the matter,
>and why is other evidence of other aspects of German policy in this
>period not sufficient to convince you ?

What I was wrong about was stating categorically that the Germans never
had any serious plans to invade England.  We all agree Hitler's interest
in invading England waned while his interest in attacking Russia waxed. 
David Irving claims that he scrapped plans to invade England at the end of
July 1940, barely a month after the fall of France.  I don't know what
other historians say on the subject, which doesn't interest me that much. 

As for "other evidence of other aspects of German policy", you'll have to 
give me an example of what you're talking about.

                 Ross Vicksell


Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: note from Greg Raven (Is Greg calling Dan Gannon a liar?)
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
References:  <2nqtln$d93@access1.digex.net>
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 1994 06:15:12 GMT
Lines: 35

I shall first address myself to what seems to be the main "bone" of 
contention between me and Mike Stein.

Me:
>>> The point I'm trying to make is that we're talking about killings that 
>>> supposedly extended over time and yet left no physical evidence.  Sure 
>>> the Germans could have attempted to cover their tracks, but even 
>>> "supermen" couldn't have done a 100% job of concealment.

Mike:
>>    I disagree.  They had a well-organized system, and the resources of a
>>government at their disposal.  It doesn't take a superman to transport
>>corpses from a gas chamber to a crematorium.  A corpse is not a tiny
>>little thing, like a hair or a clothing fabric scrap, that would fall
>>unnoticed in a corner to be discovered later by a careful detective
>>looking for physical evidence.  And the Nazis were not in the position of
>>ordinary criminals who fear capture at any moment and so are in haste to
>>depart, leaving the body around for the cops to find.  There's no dispute
>>that I have seen, not even from the most ardent revisionist, that mass
>>deaths occurred at the camps.  The question is, *how* did the deaths
>>occur?  Once the body is cremated, you can't determine the cause of death. 
>>So the lack of physical evidence is hardly surprising, given that people
>>dead of whatever cause were cremated, a point which again I have never
>>seen anyone dispute. 

The fact is that even if an executee were to be cremated after being 
gassed with hydrogen cyanide, there would still be traces of hydrogen 
cyanide in the ashes.  Now multiply this by a few hundred thousand and 
tell me how the Germans disposed of all these ashes.  And I reiterate 
what I said about the remains of the alleged gas chambers: Why no 
significant hydrogen cyanide residue, i.e. prussian blue?  The stuff DOES 
NOT wash or weather away. 

            Ross Vicksell             



Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Schindler's List Box Office Take
Message-ID: 
Keywords: Schindler's List  Holocaust Education
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
References:  <2nf5lt$brf@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu>  <2obu3b$2op@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu>
Date: Tue, 12 Apr 1994 03:08:04 GMT
Lines: 44

mutjl2@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu (Timothy J Lehnerer) writes:

>codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) writes:

>>>codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) writes:

>>>>Illinois and New Jersey already have compulsory "Holocaust Education" laws
>>>>that mandate the indoctrination of H.S. students in these states with the
>>>>"approved" version of the Holocaust Story.

>>>Ross, you're a liar. I went to a high school in Illinois and
>>>never once did I recieve any education on the Holocaust that
>>>you claim never happened. Sorry, pal. Strike one (thousand)
>>>for your side.

>>I have a revisionist friend who lives in the Chicago area.  Just a couple 
>>of years ago he had to fight to keep his three kids out of Holocaust 
>>education classes in Jr. High.  At the time he lived in some Northern 
>>suburb, Winnetka, I think.  

>>So maybe I spoke inprecisely when I said "high school" rather than "Jr. 
>>High."

>>                   Ross Vicksell

>That could very well be. Having gone to a middle school (sixth,
>seventh, eighth grades) in Wheaton, also a Chicago suburb and
>never receiving any holocaust indoctrination I'm afraid I will
>have to disagree. Is there any chance you could tell me when this
>happened?

>Tim Lehnerer
>mutjl2@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu

Sure. It was April of 1990 when he first had to fight the educational
establishment to keep his eight grade daughter from being traumatized by
Holocaust horror stories.  The encounter was big enough news to rate a
full page spread in the Chicago Tribune.  The subsequent encounters didn't
make the papers particularly.  I can find out which issue of the Tribune
the story appeared in, if you want me to.  Might be in a regional section
though, in which case you might have trouble finding it in a library. In
any case, I can have Saf fax me the story and we can take it from there. 

Ross Vicksell


Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: GANNON: Question 09 (v. 1.0: Round 1)
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
References:  
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 1994 04:33:11 GMT
Lines: 20

Frederick_Fullerton@Brown.edu (Fred Fullerton) writes:

> ...  The
>fact is millions of people were systematically murdered by a political
>regime that not only announced their intentions to the world through their
>pseudo-philosophical scribblings but also meticulously recorded the
>holocaust with the manifests for each trainload of human cargo and tons of
>other documents.

Just where did the Nazis announce their intentions to systematically 
murder millions of people?  Sure they talked about ejecting the Jews from 
Europe, but in my book that's not quite the same as murder.

As for "the manifests for each trainload of human cargo", they just 
proved that a lot of Jews were shipped East.  Period.

And the "tons of other documents" amazingly contain no reference whatever to 
homicidal gassings, or anything remotely genocidal.

          Ross Vicksell


Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Zyklon B
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
References:  <1994Apr3.015144.23911@miavx1> 	 <1994Apr7.025300.24077@miavx1> 	 
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 1994 22:23:21 GMT
Lines: 36

flax@Krille.update.uu.se (Jonas Flygare) writes:

>In article  codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) writes:

>>bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu writes:

>>>  But, if you like, I can provide a document that
>>>provides evidence that cannot just be explained away.  For example, in
>>>translated excerpts to  Nuremburg doc #NI-9913-A, a shipment of Zyklon-B (13
>>>crates of it)  has a large warning on the crate  "take care, no indicator!"
>>>  Degesch mixed a very powerful irritant with the HCN in Zyklon B
>>>intendend for fumigation/industrial purposes.  The irritant was specifically
>>>designed to warn workers of exposure, even at below hazardous amounts (below
>>>10ppm)  
>>>  If the Zyklon-B shipped to camps was meant for benign use, why take out
>>>such an obvious safety feature?  (btw, the documents about there being no
>>>indicator in such shipments are fairly numerous.)

>>Correct me if I'm wrong, but as I understand it, at some point in the war 
>>the factory that made the the irritant that went into Zyklon-B got put 
>>out of commission by an allied bombing, so Degesch had to ship the stuff 
>>with a warning on the crate instead.  This applied to ALL shipments of 
>>Zyklon from then on.

>Do you seriously believe that a chemical factory good enough to make
>poisons would have _no_ way of making even _one_ irritant to mark the
>poison with?? You know, I have this perfectly good bridge I'd like to
>sell to you...

Don't you know there was a war going on?  There were acute shortages of 
all kinds of things, so the Germans had to prioritize their allotment of 
scarce resources. The lachrymator (tear-producing irritant) in Zyklon-B 
was considered a frill.  And HCL itself is not completely odorless; 
experienced personnel could smell it. (It smells like almonds.)

                     Ross Vicksell


Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Demonstration at Holocaust Museum
Message-ID: 
Keywords: Holocaust Museum, CODOH
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
References:  <2osttp$kt6@access3.digex.net>
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 1994 20:26:49 GMT
Lines: 58

mstein@access.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) writes:

>Ross Vicksell  wrote:
>>There'll be a protest demonstration this weekend, sponsored by the Committee 
>>for Open Debate On the Holocaust (CODOH), at the U.S. Holocaust Museum in 
>>Washington.  It'll be Saturday and Sunday Afternoons.

>    On Sunday, 17th April, at 1:25PM, I drove past the Holocaust Museum 
>and saw no physical evidence of a demonstration.  I heard no shouting, 
>saw no placards or people handing out leaflets.

>    At 4:40PM, I drove past once more.  Again, no sign of Ross and his 
>friends.

>    I purchased a Sunday paper and saw no mention of a Saturday 
>demonstration.

>    I have been trying to puzzle out what this might mean.  Here are the 
>possibilities I have come up with:

>    - It is an attempt to prove that just because someone says something
>      doesn't mean they're going to do it.  Ross didn't show even
>      though he said he was going to, so this must prove that the Nazis
>      didn't kill Jews even though they said they were going to.

>    - It proves that documents don't always mean what you think.  I
>      assumed that he meant the museum on 14th St. south of Independence.
>      Perhaps he meant a museum dedicated to the U. S. holocaust as
>      opposed to the German one - i.e., the Native Americans, or perhaps
>      African blacks?  Or maybe he meant "afternoon" in the broader sense,
>      anytime after 12PM - so if I go up there right now I'll find him?

>    - It proves that the media are controlled by the Jews, as
>      they must have suppressed all mention of the Saturday demonstration.

>All in all, I would say that this is the strongest piece of evidence I 
>have yet seen from a revisionist.

>-- 
>Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
>POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
>Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.

Sorry I missed you.

We were there 12 to 2 on Saturday and 1200 to 315 on Sunday. You must 
have driven by on the 14th St. side - we were in front of the main 
entrance, on the 15th St. side.

And what makes you think the establishment press is going to cover this 
kind of thing?  They have a policy of suppressing such news.  There was a 
reporter from the Spotlight there on Saturday, tho.  I'll send you a copy 
of his story, assuming there is one, if you like.

Ross Vicksell



Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Violence
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 1994 00:59:52 GMT
Lines: 55

This is the third time I've tries to post the following.  I hope the 
third time's the charm.

>From codfish Fri Apr 15 05:23:03 1994
Return-Path: 
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Date: Fri, 15 Apr 1994 05:23:02 -0700
From: codfish (Ross Vicksell)
Message-Id: <199404151223.FAA20414@netcom9.netcom.com>
To: codfish
Subject: follow failed

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Your article/letter follows:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Demonstration at Holocaust Museum
Keywords: Holocaust Museum, CODOH
References: <2ok934$p4o@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>

dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes:

>codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) writes:

># There'll be a protest demonstration this weekend, sponsored by the Committee 
># for Open Debate On the Holocaust (CODOH), at the U.S. Holocaust Museum in 
># Washington.  It'll be Saturday and Sunday Afternoons.

>Last time there was such a demonstration, three young "revisionists" 
>celebrated it by vandalizing a Jewish cemetery in Everett, Mass,
>before they attended the demonstration.

>I hope that this time, there will be less damage, but I suggest gas
>masks as a precaution.


>-Danny Keren.

You may recall that these three nineteen year olds each got two years in
the pen.  Meanwhile, in DC, on the day of the demonstration, a guy got
beat up for carrying a Palestinian Flag, by a bunch of JDOers from the
northeast.  It happened in broad daylight in front of several spectators. 
It was a feature story in the Washington Post of April 29th.  There was no
police action taken, despite the fact that the cops had all sorts of eye
witness accounts and leads to go on. 

And note, the drunken kids in Everett were only doing property damage, 
while the hoodlums in Washington were assaulting people.  There's a big 
difference, in my book.

Ross Vicksell            

Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Demonstration at Holocaust Museum
Message-ID: 
Keywords: Holocaust Museum, CODOH
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
References:  <2osttp$kt6@access3.digex.net> 
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 1994 01:37:05 GMT
Lines: 21

I thought you all might be interested in hearing about how our
demonstration ended on Sunday.  At about three, some clown from the other
side knocks a stack of flyers out of my hand and they go flying.  It's a 
windy day so they spread all over the plaza in front of the museum,
and for a while the museum security people are busy scrambling around
picking them up.  Then a little while later a couple of cops show up and
tell us to stop demonstrating - something about inciting a civil
disturbance. Talk about blaming the victim! 

Something similar happened in Manhattan the weekend before.  We're
demonstrating at a theatre that's showing Schindler's List.  A guy comes
from out of nowhere and starts hitting one of our people, a Palestinian,
and calling him all sorts of names.  Our guy holds on to his assailant to
try to restrain him.  All in plain sight of the cops. But now dig this. 
The guy that was hitting our man goes away, but comes back a little later
and tries to persuade the cop to arrest the guy he was hitting!  And he
won't give up.  He keeps talking to the cop.  Fortunately, in this case,
the cop finally gets shed of him, and our demonstration continues 
uninterrupted. 

Ross Vicksell

Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Demonstration at Holocaust Museum
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
References:  <2osttp$kt6@access3.digex.net>  
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 1994 17:01:54 GMT
Lines: 17

golux@world.std.com (and not a mere Device) writes:

>Ross Vicksell (codfish@netcom.com) wrote:
>For what it's worth, Ross, I hope you enjoyed your little outing.  Perhaps
>next time, you might actually go into the Museum and learn something about
>the event(s) you claim never occurred.

I've been through the museum three times.  In fact we've been talking 
about putting together an "unofficial" guidebook to tell museum goers 
what they're really seeing there.

While I try to keep up with what both sides have to say, I must admit that
there are revisionists who don't.  They won't go thru the museum or go to
see Schindler's list or read exterminationist literature.  There was one
guy with us on Sunday who even refused to use the mens room in the museum. 

Ross Vicksell

Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: CyberKnight imagines a Canadian "specific statute"
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
References: <3393.UUL1.3#25274@ace.com> <2p262s$1bo@csi0.csi.uottawa.ca>
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 1994 18:26:56 GMT
Lines: 4

I'm glad Canada doesn't suppress revisionists like Germany does, but it's 
too bad they won't let David Irving in. 

Ross Vicksell


Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Violence
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
References:  
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 1994 20:23:32 GMT
Lines: 23

v140pxgt@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu (Daniel B Case) writes:

>In article , codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) writes...
>>You may recall that these three nineteen year olds each got two years in
>>the pen.  Meanwhile, in DC, on the day of the demonstration, a guy got
>>beat up for carrying a Palestinian Flag, by a bunch of JDOers from the
>>northeast.  It happened in broad daylight in front of several spectators. 
>>It was a feature story in the Washington Post of April 29th.  There was no
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>police action taken, despite the fact that the cops had all sorts of eye
>>witness accounts and leads to go on. 

>Ross, didn't you say in another post that "the establishment media suppresses
>these things?" Do you contradict yourself often, or are you new to this?

Occasionally they do their job.  In fact, Laurie Goodstein, who wrote the 
story, later invited me and Hans Schmidt, a WWII SS veteran, to do the 
museum with her.  That visit got written up in a story called "Holocaust 
of Mirrors" in the Oct. 1st Washington Post.  It was pretty much of a 
smear job, tho.  

                    Ross Vicksell

Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: 6 Million?
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
References: <00011640.fc@nile.com> <20891@blue.cis.pitt.edu> <21APR199420075714@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 1994 21:27:09 GMT
Lines: 32

dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) writes:

>In article <20891@blue.cis.pitt.edu>, cacst9+@pitt.edu (Cecelia A Clancy) writes...
>>Have all the cross-lighting ceremonies you want, but please don't
>>make things harder for "ordinary Revisionists."

>    Hi Cecelia,

>    Can you define what an "ordinary revsionist" believes and give me an
>    example of who some of them are?  I am trying to keep my categories
>    straight here.

>    I have noticed that several different sub-group of non-holocaust
>    believers have been posting lately.  (You may have missed some of
>    them.)  There is the IHR crowd (Gannon, Vicksell, Raven) and they do
>    not seem to be incomplete agreement on everything, but some
>    other posters seem to be outside of this crowd.  Do you consider the
>    IHR crowd to be "ordinary revisionists?"  Where do you fit in Kleim? 
>    Where do you fit in Jason Smith?  What category (revisionist or not) do
>    you fall into?

>    danny

>===========================================================================
>daniel david mittleman     -     danny@arizona.edu     -     (602) 621-2932

I hate to split hairs, but I belong to Bradley Smith's group, the 
Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust (CODOH).  I have no 
formal affiliations with the IHR, tho I do know all the people 
there personally.

           Ross Vicksell

Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Demonstration at Holocaust Museum
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
References:  <2osttp$kt6@access3.digex.net>      <2p68mq$s3e@scunix2.harvard.edu>
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 1994 22:06:01 GMT
Lines: 21

stara@husc7.harvard.edu (Felix Vagabond) writes:

>Ross Vicksell (codfish@netcom.com) wrote:

>: While I try to keep up with what both sides have to say, I must admit that
>: there are revisionists who don't.  
>They won't go thru the museum or go to
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>: see Schindler's list or read exterminationist literature.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>  There was one
>: guy with us on Sunday who even refused to use the mens room in the museum. 
>                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^            
>  Ross it does not surprise me at all. These are the type you fool with 
>  around and keep company.
>  They only believe what Savage and his lousy gang fabricate.

Most of the revisionists I associate with, e.g. Bradley Smith, David 
Cole, Andrew Allen, and Jack Wikoff, are not this close-minded.

            Ross Vicksell

Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Anti-Semitic, not.
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
References: <0001A705.fc@nile.com>  <2p71am$e0q@mits.mdata.fi>
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 1994 21:05:01 GMT
Lines: 24

kauhunen@mits.mdata.fi (Kari Nenonen) writes:

>>In article <0001A705.fc@nile.com>, Rick Savage  wrote:

>>>   "The Khazars were a non-Semitic, Turko-Finn, Mongolian tribal 
>>>people who, about the First century A.D., emigrated from Middle 
>>>Asia to Eastern Europe.  There they created one of the largest 
>>>kingdoms of their time.  At its greatest extent, it covered an area of 
>>>about 800,000 miles.

>That's bullshit. I'm a Finn and I happen to know quite well the history of
>my people. The Turko-Finn connection is a myth based some obscure similatiries
>in some words and it's scientifically rejected for about 60 years ago. The
>Finno-Mongolian connection was also a nonproven languastical hypothesis until
>modern genetic research proved that it has no basis. I think this is
>enough to show how realiable your racist rantings are.

>Not that I would have anything against if Turkeys and Finns or Mongolians and
>Finns were tribally or other way relatives.

But you are related to the Hungarians, right? You're both Finno-Ugric, 
I'm told.

              Ross Vicksell

Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Violence
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
References:  <2p72v0$e98@mits.mdata.fi>
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 1994 21:56:23 GMT
Lines: 43

kauhunen@mits.mdata.fi (Kari Nenonen) writes:

>In article ,
>Ross Vicksell  wrote:

>>You may recall that these three nineteen year olds each got two years in
>>the pen.  Meanwhile, in DC, on the day of the demonstration, a guy got
>>beat up for carrying a Palestinian Flag, by a bunch of JDOers from the
>>northeast.  It happened in broad daylight in front of several spectators. 
>>It was a feature story in the Washington Post of April 29th.  There was no
>>police action taken, despite the fact that the cops had all sorts of eye
>>witness accounts and leads to go on. 


>>And note, the drunken kids in Everett were only doing property damage, 
>>while the hoodlums in Washington were assaulting people.  There's a big 
>>difference, in my book.

>In my book it's a bit stupid and more than a bit provocative to carry a
>Palestinian flag in New York in a revisionist demonstration outside a
>theater that shows The Schindler's List. Not that I aprove violence. It
>was "wrong" yes, but maybe it was understandable, even for the cops. And
>considering your other claims here, I don't even believe it was violence
>at all. The stuped flagman did not do any good for the Palestinians' case
>either. Could be someone his own people with more brains that pushed him
>a little.

The beating took place in Washington (DC = District of Columbia) not New 
York. The flag bearer was a loner named David Wilcox, who's not even 
Palestinian.

>Those drunken kids in Everett did more than property damage, in my books.
>Although they propably were sentenced only for property violation. At
>least it tells well what kind of people you attract with your rantings.
>Desecrating graves can hurt the innocent relatives of the deceaseds much
>more than a couple of punches hurt a moron who asks for it - in my
>books.

The kids were sentenced for committing a "hate crime." Repression of 
first amendment rights is alive and well in Massachusetts.  But I'm not 
condoning what they did - it gives the movement a bad image.

                 Ross Vicksell

Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: question
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
References: <2p8f69$m5d@mits.mdata.fi>
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 1994 21:43:29 GMT
Lines: 23

kauhunen@mits.mdata.fi (Kari Nenonen) writes:

>To anybody who knows: Weren't Buchenwald and Bergen Belsen extermination
>camps? Why are they so seldom mentioned here? I know that Bergen Belsen
>situated on German soil. But where was Buchenwald?
>I used to know a Finnish lady who worked in the Finnish merchant marine
>during the WWII. When Finland declared war to German, her boat was at
>harlbour in Hannofer, Germany. The whole crew of the ship was inprisoned
>and transported to concentration camp Bergen Belsen. The lady told me
>about the terrible conditions there: the starvation, the beatings and
>shootings (mainly the Russian POWs) but nothing about gassings.
>-- 

In 1945 the western allies were finding gas chambers EVERYWHERE, including
Dachau, Buchenwald, and Bergen-Belsen.  Later, in the 1960s, these claims
were quietly dropped.  Presumably the claims about the camps in Poland
will eventually have to be dropped too, but this time there will be a loud
thud. 

Didn't know Finland ever declared war on Germany.  Must have been by a 
Russian-installed puppet government, toward the end of the war?

Ross Vicksell

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