Archive/File: holocaust/usa/codoh vicksell.0994
Last-Modified: 1994/09/24

Article 15735 of alt.revisionism:
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Fritz Berg's Absence
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
References:  <33tiie$4qk@math.mps.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Thu, 1 Sep 1994 03:24:44 GMT
Lines: 8

I'm sorry I didn't make the contest rules clearer in the beginning, but 
each contestant will be limited to ONE (1) guess.  I know this may strike 
you as ex post facto, but what's wrong with that?

All entries must be submitted by midnight Saturday.  Try to make it your 
single BEST piece of guesswork. 

                     Ross Vicksell


Article 15850 of alt.revisionism:
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Fresh blood?
Message-ID: 
Keywords: alt.revisionism
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
Date: Fri, 2 Sep 1994 20:30:51 GMT
Lines: 65

As I think I've to;d you already, my main reason for going out the IHR 
conferernce this weekend is to recruit revisionists for alt.revisionism.  
Bradley's going to put in a plug for Internet and tell them to come and 
see me for more info.  Here's our handout:


          COMMITTEE FOR OPEN DEBATE ON THE HOLOCAUST (CODOH)

                     Director: Bradley R. Smith
                     Box 3267  Visalia CA 93278
                      Tel/Fax: (209) 733 2653
______________________________________________________________________

   I N T E R N E T    A N D    R E V I S I O N I S T    O U T R E A C H
         
Getting the good news of Holocaust Revisionism out to the "silent
majority" is what CODOH is all about.  You all know about Bradley
Smith's revisionist ads in college papers across the nation and the
appearances of Bradley and David Cole on nationwide and local TV and
radio shows.

And, as the name of our organization implies, we're also interested in 
openly debating the so called "Holocaust."  The only place this is 
actually going on, as far as I know, is on the Internet computer 
network, in a discussion group ("newsgroup") called alt.revisionism.

As you probably know, Internet is a world-wide computer network that
makes it extremely easy for people thousands of miles apart to
communicate with each other.  There are Internet discussion groups
covering every topic under the sun, including Holocaust Revisionism. 
There is a large and growing audience following the battle of the
Exterminationists vs. the Revisionists in this discussion group.  And,
best of all, there are opportunities for both sides to expand on
topics, and build on what's come before.  Here's where you hard-core
revisionists can catch up on the latest revisionist and
exterminationist arguments.  And clearly it's a lot more interesting
for the 'neutral' spectators to hear both sides of the story instead of
just one.  It's like a sporting event.

So what's all this got to do with you?  It's very simple.  We want you to
join in on the the fun. The costs of coming aboard are suprisingly 
modest: less than $1000 for a new computer or less than $500 for a
second-hand one plus 10 to 20 dollars a month for Internet access.  (In
some parts of the country you can hook into Internet at NO monthly
cost!) If you already have a computer, so much the better.  A modem,
a device that enables your computer to communicate with Internet, costs
less than $100.  We'll give you help getting set up with the necessary
hardware and software and Internet connections.  We're old hands at it.

Your level of participation is entirely up to you - anywhere from pure
spectating to frontline fighting for The Truth.  And if you want to
post stuff anonymously, that can be done, too.

Another very nice facility on Internet is electronic mail (email).  This 
is an ideal way to communicate with your fellow revisionists.  It cost 
nothing, and your mail gets delivered almost immediately.

So why wait?  Come on in - the waters fine! 

                        Ross Vicksell
                New England Regional CODOH Director
                   Phone/FAX: (617)272-0321 





Article 15852 of alt.revisionism:
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: confessions of a revisionsit
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
References: <33b69q$74h@news.xs4all.nl> <33c8bd$q67@news.xs4all.nl> <33dun5$d48@access1.digex.net>  <33hpdm$re4@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>  <33msob$4ht@netaxs.com>
Date: Fri, 2 Sep 1994 20:51:42 GMT
Lines: 17

btrosko@netaxs.com (Brian Trosko) writes (quoting me) :


>: One of the principle purveyors of Holocaust propaganda was the World 
>: Jewish Congress, which wanted the British to open Palestine to unlimited 
>: Jewish immigration.

>: Another was the World Zionist Organization.

>Sources, please, sources! And I sincerely hope whatever evidence you can 
>cite will hold up to the same standards by which you judge the sources of 
>Mssrs. Stein and McVey, or you'll simply look like a fool.  We're waiting.

This one is easy. When I get back from the IHR confab I'll give you 
citations galore.

            Ross Vicksell


Article 15867 of alt.revisionism:
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Butz's version of CNN show
Message-ID: 
Keywords: Butz
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
Date: Sat, 3 Sep 1994 02:40:25 GMT
Lines: 300

As some of you may recall, Ken McVay posted an item a while back purporting  
to show how Arthur Butz was cowed by a righteous, albeit somewhat
obscure, survivor, on a national TV talk shoe.  I was unable to get a
video of the show from the CNN tape library.  It apparently was not one
of their all-time best sellers; the guy at the tape library said no one
had ever requested it before.  There's an outside chance one could get
a tape or transcript of the show from of the U.S.  Holocaust Museum or
the Simon Wiesenthal Center.  I was just at the H.  museum but I clean
forgot to check.

I also contacted Butz. I'm including in this post my letter to him (which 
incorporates McVay's post) and his responses.

                 Ross Vicksell

************************************************************************

          COMMITTEE FOR OPEN DEBATE ON THE HOLOCAUST (CODOH)

                     Director: Bradley R. Smith
                     Box 3267  Visalia CA 93278
                      Tel/Fax: (209) 733 2653
 _________________________________________________________________________
 Regional Directors: Andrew Allen(Northwest)Fax:(415)435-3166  David 
 Cole(Southwest)Tel:(310)836-0211  Robert Countess, Ph.D. (South) 
 Rolf Hermes(Texas) Tel/Fax: (210)519-8325  Ross Vicksell(New  England) 
 Tel/Fax: (617)272-0321
 ------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Dr. Butz,

I'm the CODOH person in New England.  Fritz Berg and I have been 
participating in the "alt.revisionism" discussion group on Internet, where 
we are greatly outnumbered by exterminationists.  Situation normal.

One of them posted the following the other day.  I would like you to
comment on it, if you would be so kind. ...

                    Thanks,


                    Ross Vicksell

********************************************************************
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Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: BUTZ: "I don't want to hear anymore of this!"
Message-ID: <1994Jul11.043512.18067@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
From: kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay)
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 94 04:35:12 GMT
Organization: The Old Frog's Almanac
Summary: An Auschwitz survivor confronts Butz head-on - Butz          turns 
 tail and runs ..
Lines: 145

Archive/File: holocaust/usa/ihr butz.002
Last-Modified: 1994/07/05

                 "Voice of An Auschwitz Survivor"

                    A Survivor Fights Denials

   Including a Media Debate with Arthur Butz and An Account of This
            Survivor's Work in the Auschwitz Crematorium

                         by Lilli Kopecky

   In my monograph, "In the Shadow of the Flames,"<1> I stated in the
   preface to Lecture 5<2> that the first comprehensive study dealing
   with neo-Nazism and denials of the Holocaust was published to my
   knowledge in 1977 by the "Public Committee of Survivors of
   Auschwitz and Other Extermination Camps" in Israel, of which I was
   SEcretary General until 1988. I wrote there of my conviction that
   we, the concentration camp survivors, have the moral obligation and
   sacred duty to warn the world so that the tragedy of our past may
   not be forgotten and repeated!

   In this article, I only want to prove that even ONE person -- alone
   but unafraid -- can and should act in order to be heard.

   As I wrote in "In the Shadow of the Flames" (pp. 58-59), one of the
   very vicious books in the 1970s, "The Hoax of the Twentieth
   Century" by Arthur R. Butz attempts to refute proven facts of the
   Holocaust and, indeed, the Holocaust itself.<3> In trying to fill
   the gap in historical revisionism, the author reconstructs the
   actual evolution of knowledge in the U.S. with regard to the gas
   chamber atrocities -- knowledge based, in his opinion, solely on
   the propaganda of the Nuremberg Trial in 1946, and states that no
   German documents from Auschwitz mention a gas chamber. He cites a
   document from the construction firm of Topf and Sons in Erfurt
   which makes reference to a "Fergasungskeller" (gassing cellar).
   However, Butz, with his knowledge of engineering, tries to explain
   this as a "gas generation cellar" for igniting the crematoria used
   for disposing of those who had died in the camps from presumably
   natural cuases. To the great delight of German neo-Nazis, a German
   translation of this book is on the market.

   On April 30, 1981, I had the singular opportunity of challenging
   Butz to his face on the "Freeman Reports," a television program
   carried by Cable News Network (CNN) and broadcast to hundreds of
   thousands of viewers. I conversed by phone with him from the
   studios of CNN in Hollywood, California. I pointed out to Butz that
   his skillfully constructed lies collapse readily in the face of
   evidence offered by the following primary sources:

   (a) Testimonies of hundreds of former Auschwitz prisoners,
   especially "Sonderkommando" survivors, as well as SS officers,
   taken during the Auschwitz Trial before the court in Frankfurt am
   Main.

   (b) Notable memoirs by SS offficers, including those of the
   Auschwitz commandant Rudolf Hoess, Perry Broad of the SS Political
   Department, and the diary of Dr. Kremer.

   (c) Published manuscripts of "Sonderkommando" prisoners<4> which
   were buried and found on the grounds of the Auschwitz-Birkenau
   crematoria.

   (d) About two hundred authentic photographs made by the SS
   "Erkennungsdienst" (SS photographers) in Auschwitz-Birkenau,
   recording the arrivals, selections, and marches towards the gas
   chambers of Jews deported in 1944 from Hungary.

   (e) Three photos made by the Auschwitz resistance movement showing
   "Sonderkommando" members at work.

   (f) Reprints of the authentic detailed ground plans of the four
   crematoria with eight gas chambers in Birkenau. These plans were
   smuggled out of the SS Construction Office in Auschwitz and sent to
   the Swiss Consulate in Prague in 1944.<5> Their authenticity is
   verified by checks with the gas chamber ruins, now part of the
   Polish Museum in Oswiecim (Auschwitz), and against American aerial
   reconnaissance photographs from 1944.<6>

   I had scarcely finished this list when Butz said, "I don't want to
   hear any more of this." Pointing my finger at him, I said, "Dr.
   Butz, you are a liar. Sue me!" He only answered, "I'm hanging up
   now," and broke off our conversation without responding to the
   challenge. I feel that such open and direct confrontation is for
   now the best way to expose these fabricators of "facts."

   In the same broadcast, I stated that -- except for the
   "Sonderkommando" -- I am, to my knowledge, the only person to be
   brought regularly (in 1943 and 1944) into the old Auschwitz
   crematorium. My presence in the crematorium was kept very secret
   and I was always threatened with death if I would tell anybody
   where I have been. I had to fill -- directly from the oversn -- the
   urns for German inmates (non-Jews) who had died and whose families
   had paid for the urns. I was brought there by my boss,
   Unterscharfuehrer Albrecht, then head of the Auschwitz crematorium,
   from the Registrar's Office where I worked as a typist. Thus I had
   direct knowledge of the gas chamber.

   I have been there!

   NOTES:

   1. Kopecky, Lilli, "In the Shadow of the Flames. Six Lectures
      on the Holocaust," Witness to the Holocaust Project, Emory
      University, Atlanta, Georgia, 1982.

   2. Ibid. Lecture 5, "Holocaust Denials, Neo-Nazism, Anti-Semitism,
      Radicalism and Terrorism."

   3. Butz, Arthur, R. The Hoax of the Twentieth Century. Historical
      Review Press: Richmond, England, 1975. 0Butz has a Ph.D. in
      electrical engineering and is a tenured professor at Northwestern
      University which in the face of many protests over the years has
      insisted on retaining him on the basis of "academic freedom."

   4. Sonderkommando (translated Special Detatchment).  Its members
      had to pull the corpses (after being gassed) out of the gas
      chambers and bring them into the overs or, in 1944, when there
      was not enough space in the ovens, burn the corpses on the
      stakes.

   5. Taken from the office by Vera Foltynova, smuggled by the
      underground into Prague to the non-Jewish wife of Ota Kraus and
      given to the Swiss Consulate for safekeeping. Source: Erich
      Kulka.

   6. Central Intelligence Agency, "The Holocaust Revisited; A
      Retrospective Analysis of the Auschwitz-Birkenau Extermination
      Complex. Prepared by Dino Brugioni and Robert Poirier, February,
      1979.


Source:

Internet on the Holocaust and Genocide - an international information
resource exchange towards understanding, intervention and prevention
of genocide. Published by the Institute on the Holocaust and Genocide,
P.O. Box 10311, Jerusalem, Israel. (Telephone and Fax: 972-2-720424)

Issue 48 - April, 1994
-- 
--------------------------The Old Frog's Almanac-------------------------
"However, it is sophistry to proclaim that something must have happened a
certain way because your `reason' demands it." (Greg Raven, Institute for
Historical Review)   

************************************************************************
                                               July 20, 1994

Dear Mr. Vicksell,


In reply to your inquiry postmarked July 14, I did have a very brief 
encounter with CNN.  It was around 1981.  I have attached some notes I 
made on Feb. 13, 1986 when wild claims were made as to what I had said.

From the program, I remember only the actor Robert Clary.  I do not 
recall ever having heard of Lilli Kopecky in any connection, but it is 
possible she was also somehow involved in that program.

Cooper's 1986 account of what I said is invented out of thin air.  I 
certainly didn't get "about four or five minutes' to have my "say", and 
I didn't say what he claimed.

Kopecky account of 1994 is probably a concoction, too.  On internal 
evidence, one should be suspicious of her, since she reports pointing 
her finger at me through a telephone connection, a very good trick!  The 
remarks she put in my mouth do not sound like me, and I am sure there 
was no exploration of the matters of her items (a)-(f) while I was 
connected; the encounter was much too emotional for that.

             Best Regards,
             Arthur R. Butz

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Feb. 13, 1986

Today I got a cassette from David McCalden purporting to be the record
of a meeting held Jan 19 at the Temple Beth Am in Los Angeles.  Mel
Mermelstein said he attended a lecture by Elie Wiesel who "cried in
front of hundreds and hundreds of teachers" that he had gotten "a
letter and a postcard from a professor (Faurisson) who said that the
Holocaust is nothing but a hoax and that the chimneys of Auschwitz are
only those of the bakery." Rabbi Abraham Cooper, Associate Dean of the
Simon Wiesenthal Center and co-editor of Response, had a very strange
idea of what I said when I was on the telephone with CNN-TV in Atlanta
a few years ago.  I was connected by telephone only and had not seen
the program on TV.  My recollection is that I said only a few words and
that Robert Clary made such a scene that I had no opportunity to say
anything more.  My recollection does not resemble Rabbi Cooper's
account, which seems to implicitly report that he, Cooper, was present
during the production of the program.  Speaking first of Robert Clary,
Cooper said:

when we first met Robert and a number of other survivors were on on a 
CNN television program out of Atlanta ... (Butz) wasn't on the screen 
but (the moderator) let him go through his say and after about four or 
five minutes the moderator in disgust finally interrupted and said "now 
listen here.  You're a professor but you've heard everything these 
people have said.  If you saw the show you saw the materials that the 
Nazis, the Germans themselves, took.  How in the world can deny what 
happened?"  And I think that Butz's answer that day was probably the 
most honest statement he has ever made in his adult life. He said "O do 
not believe Auschwitz happened because I'm more comfortable not believing 
Auschwitz happened.  I'm more comfortable believing that Auschwitz did 
not happpen" ... I think for someone like Butz there's a lot for us to 
learn from, a, in a sense an off the cuff gut statement like that from 
that professional bigot.

**********************************************************************
                                                          July 23, 1994
Dear Mr. Vicksell,

Since mailing you my letter of July 20 it occurred to me that the 
statements Kopecky attributed to me ("I don't want to hear any more of 
this ... I'm hanging up now") might have been uttered by me in reaction 
to Clary's rantings, the precise content of which I don't remember.  
However I could not have reacted that way to points such as her (a) - 
(f) in the Internet message, regardless of by whom uttered.

                   Best Regards,
                   Arthur R. Butz

 






















Article 15875 of alt.revisionism:
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From: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire)
Subject: Re: The Shape of Things to Come
Message-ID: 
Sender: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire)
Organization: The World @ Software Tool & Die
References:  <3452ot$3n3@scunix2.harvard.edu>
Date: Sun, 4 Sep 1994 17:24:26 GMT
Lines: 10

In article <3452ot$3n3@scunix2.harvard.edu>,
stara@fas.harvard.edu (Felix Vagabond) wrote:

//  ( No memorial can ever exhibit or impart the holocaust of SIX MILLION Jews)

And what memorial can exhibit or impart the holocaust of EIGHTY
MILLION Chinese whose lives were extinguished by Marxists?

What really does this portentous, bloated rhetoric really mean?
It's a lot of gas.


Article 15906 of alt.revisionism:
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From: declan@delphi.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Shape of Things to Come
Date: Sun, 4 Sep 94 19:56:08 -0500
Organization: Delphi (info@delphi.com email, 800-695-4005 voice)
Lines: 8
Message-ID: 
References:  <3452ot$3n3@scunix2.harvard.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bos2a.delphi.com
X-To: Felix Vagabond 

Felix Vagabond  writes:
 
>  Marino on Mass ave in Cambridge, even better a dinner at the Marque rest.
 
	Where is this "Marque" place?  Marinos is not that good.  Besides,
why not all go to a nice delicatessen?
 
LM


Article 15907 of alt.revisionism:
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From: declan@delphi.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Shape of Things to Come
Date: Sun, 4 Sep 94 20:00:31 -0500
Organization: Delphi (info@delphi.com email, 800-695-4005 voice)
Lines: 18
Message-ID: 
References:  <3452ot$3n3@scunix2.harvard.edu> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: bos2a.delphi.com
X-To: Wayne McGuire 

Wayne McGuire  writes:
 
>//  ( No memorial can ever exhibit or impart the holocaust of SIX MILLION Jews)
>
>And what memorial can exhibit or impart the holocaust of EIGHTY
>MILLION Chinese whose lives were extinguished by Marxists?
>
>What really does this portentous, bloated rhetoric really mean?
>It's a lot of gas.
 
	Agreed.  And don't forget the million Irish who died in the Famine,
and the blacks who died during slavers trips, and the French who died when
the Brits moved them out of Canada, and the millions upon millions of
other dead for "nationalist" or "racial causes."  The list is endless.
Jews have no claim to exclusive victim status, other than as "G-d's chosen,"
a doubtful and arrogant claim.
 
LM


Article 15979 of alt.revisionism:
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From: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire)
Subject: Re: A revisionist defines
Message-ID: <56VTk0yNU2x9069yn@world.std.com>
Sender: wmcguire@world.std.com
Organization: The World @ Software Tool & Die
References: <40.7175.1168@channel1.com>   
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 1994 19:37:57 GMT
Lines: 16

In article ,
codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) wrote:

//The point I was attempting to make is that the Arabs in Israel are very
//much second-class citizens.  There are two or three Arabs in the Knesset.
//Nuff said.

If the anti-revisionists in this newsgroup are denying the fact
that Arabs are very much second-class citizens in Israel, they
are seriously blowing their credibility. No one who is familiar with
the facts about Israel will deny this assertion for a second.

This is no place for extended Mideast debate, but I do notice
that misinformation about Israel keeps creeping into the posts of
a number of anti-revisionists here. This makes me begin to wonder
about their overall grasp on truth of any kind.


Article 15984 of alt.revisionism:
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From: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire)
Subject: Re: "G-d's Chosen"
Message-ID: 
Sender: wmcguire@world.std.com
Organization: The World @ Software Tool & Die
References:  <3452ot$3n3@scunix2.harvard.edu>
	 
	<34u948$eoh@access3.digex.net>  
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 1994 18:22:46 GMT
Lines: 65

In article ,
bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein) wrote:
//
//From: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire)

//>For any ethnic group to claim a special relationship with God is
//>to invite a skeptical or hostile response from every other ethnic
//>group, and from every person in this world who is trying to
//>transcend an ethnocentric approach to life.
//
//And what major religion *doesn't* claim to be "chosen", if not in
//exactly those words. Why focus on Judaism? C'mon Wayne, HAVE YOU BEEN
//SAVED?!

//C'mon try to be even-handed.

Barry,

Why don't you go back and read my post carefully--I clearly
stated that Christianity, Islam, and Nazism (and I would add
Marxism, particularly in its vanguardist aspects) are
COUNTER-chosen people ideologies. I already acknowledged the fact
that other religions--especially Western monotheistic religions
with their roots in Judaism and Jewish messianism--adopt a chosen
people stance towards the world.

But this chosen people game in the West clearly began with
Judaism. Christianity, Islam, and Nazism were all REACTIONS to
the chosen people claims of the Jews. Go back and read the New
Testament, in case you have forgotten the basic history of ideas.

You didn't answer my point that the chosen people ideology is at
the root of a good deal and perhaps most of the friction between
Jews and the rest of the world. What makes Jewish chosen
peopleness especially volatile is the integration of religion,
nationalism, tribalism, ethnocentrism, and territorialism in one
package. When ethnic and national groups make chosen people
claims, and cloak those claims with religious symbolism, they
invariably push the hottest primitive buttons of every other
ethnic and national group.

Primitive egoism. That is what underlies all the vicious conflict
among the various equally ridiculous chosen peoples in the world.
My religion is better than your religion. My nation is better
than your nation. My ethnic group is better than your ethnic
group. My tribe is better than your tribe. My territory is more
sacred than your territory. God loves me better than he loves
you.

If some Jews want to adopt a chosen people stance concerning
Israel and their ethnicity--and MANY do--fine. But they shouldn't
be surprised if they manage to stir up a hornet's nest of
unimaginable magnitude. Because every other self-selected chosen
people in the world listening to a different divine voice is
going to beg to differ and won't hesitate to knock heads.

Numerous leading Reform, Reconstructionist, and secular Jews have
urged that the chosen people concept be discarded or radically
redfined. I happen to agree strongly.

If I were a Jew, I would say that what being a chosen person
means is to seek after excellence in everything, especially in
ethics, but also in all the work one turns one's mind to; and
that one becomes a Jew by pursuing this excellence. Something
like that.


Article 15988 of alt.revisionism:
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From: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire)
Subject: Re: "G-d's Chosen"
Message-ID: 
Sender: wmcguire@world.std.com
Organization: The World @ Software Tool & Die
References:   <34u948$eoh@access3.digex.net>  <351sr2$70o@access2.digex.net>
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 1994 20:23:01 GMT
Lines: 58

In article <351sr2$70o@access2.digex.net>,
mstein@access.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

//Wayne McGuire  wrote:

//>Christianity, Islam, and even Nazism were essentially
//>COUNTER-chosen people ideologies (see George Bernard Shaw on
//>Nazism for instance). Typical brain-damaged conflict: Tribe A:
//>I'm the chosen people. Tribe B: No *I'M* the chosen people.
//
//    Excuse me?  "Anyone not believing in Christ is going to Hell" (talking
//about doubtful and arrogant claims) is a COUNTER-chosen people ideology?

Absolutely. Christianity is basically a Jewish cult which is at
war with its parent Jewish cult, Judaism, over ideology and
claims regarding chosenness. The Christians sought to SUPPLANT
the Jews as the chosen people. Really, this is Religion 101--you
don't know this? Reread the New Testament, and especially the
writings of Paul, the founder of Christianity. Paul is engaged in
an angry repudiation of the parent cult, particularly regarding
claims of chosenness. One sees a similar process in Islam and in
its attitudes towards Judaism.

This is really the fastest gun in the West syndrome: if you claim
to be the chosen people, every other high-testosterone group in
the world will immediately challenge you and try to put you
under.

Surely you are aware that there has been tremendous debate in the
Jewish world for the last hundred years or more about the
negative side of the chosen people claim? Many of the brightest
Jewish minds want to do away with this ideology altogether.

One you start playing the chosen people game, you will invariably
find yourself in deep shit. There is no redder red flag than
waving claims about chosenness.

What's really revealing about the Old Testament rendition of the
claim is that it is inextricably entwined with territorial
conquest and genocide: the chosen people, by the very fact of
their chosenness, earned the divine right to conquer territory
and annihilate their enemies, including women and children.
Claims about chosenness and naked aggression always seem to
travel side by side.

What does all this have to do with the Holocaust? A Holocaust
cult has emerged which claims explicitly or implicitly that the
murder of 6 million Jews was a crime on a scale and of a severity
that is unmatched by any other crime in world history. Such an
absurd assertion has its roots in a chosen people ideology which
believes that all of world history revolves around the drama and
travails of only one group of people. The Holocaust cult--as
opposed to the Holocaust--certainly merits a good deal skeptical
probing and deconstruction. Jason Epstein was trying to get at
this point, I believe, in his article on Schindler's List in the
New York Review of Books. If I get time, I will post the entire
article. Meanwhile, you might want to look it up--it appeared a
few months ago.


Article 15996 of alt.revisionism:
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From: quirke_a@ix.wcc.govt.nz
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Vicksell and the Auschwitz Brothel
Date: 13 Sep 1994 22:49:23 GMT
Organization: Wellington City Council, Public Access
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References:  ,
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codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) writes:

>I have referred the brothel matter to one of my high-powered revisionist 
>friends, in hopes that he can come up with some kind of argument that 
>will convince you guys that the brothel was not just for the SS and the 
>Kapos.

   You were asked on what standard of proof you required in order to
believe a brothel existed in the camp. You were then asked why you
did not believe in gas chambers in the camp, by any objective standard
far better documented than any brothel.

   Your reply: "I'll have to get someone else to explain it for me".

   In other words, you have *no* standard of proof. You only have stories
fed to you by others, you are not intelligent or rational enough to
evaluate them, and you accept or reject them based on a predetermined
worldview which may or may not have any basis in reality.

- Tony Q.
---
Tony Quirke, Wellington, New Zealand (email for phone no)
 "Now I lay me down to sleep / I hear the sirens in the street.
  All my dreams are made of chrome / I cannot find my way back home" 


Article 16012 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dspiegel@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu (Dan Spiegel)
Subject: Re: A revisionist defines
Message-ID: 
Organization: Ohio University CS Dept,. Athens
References:   <56VTk0yNU2x9069yn@world.std.com>
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 1994 23:59:06 GMT
Lines: 30

In article <56VTk0yNU2x9069yn@world.std.com> wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire) writes:
>In article ,
>codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) wrote:
>
>//The point I was attempting to make is that the Arabs in Israel are very
>//much second-class citizens.  There are two or three Arabs in the Knesset.
>//Nuff said.
>
>If the anti-revisionists in this newsgroup are denying the fact
>that Arabs are very much second-class citizens in Israel, they
>are seriously blowing their credibility. No one who is familiar with
>the facts about Israel will deny this assertion for a second.
>
>This is no place for extended Mideast debate, but I do notice
>that misinformation about Israel keeps creeping into the posts of
>a number of anti-revisionists here. This makes me begin to wonder
>about their overall grasp on truth of any kind.

   Please provide examples. What is this misinformation? This assertion
needs backing up. Who is doing this? Why would this make you wonder
about the truth, when it is not presented using assertions, but rather
by citing specific *evidence*?

   To accuse a group of spreading misinformation is a serious matter.
Please back it up.

-DS
I speak for myself only.
No unsolicited e-mail, please. I'll read your flames with everyone else.
Please do not use my name in any subject headers.


Article 16020 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mstein@access.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "G-d's Chosen"
Date: 14 Sep 1994 00:22:44 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
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Message-ID: <355tqk$ee0@access2.digex.net>
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NNTP-Posting-Host: access2.digex.net

In article ,
Wayne McGuire  wrote:
>In article <351sr2$70o@access2.digex.net>,
>mstein@access.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>
>//Wayne McGuire  wrote:
>
>//>Christianity, Islam, and even Nazism were essentially
>//>COUNTER-chosen people ideologies (see George Bernard Shaw on
>//>Nazism for instance). Typical brain-damaged conflict: Tribe A:
>//>I'm the chosen people. Tribe B: No *I'M* the chosen people.
>//
>//    Excuse me?  "Anyone not believing in Christ is going to Hell" (talking
>//about doubtful and arrogant claims) is a COUNTER-chosen people ideology?
>
>Absolutely. Christianity is basically a Jewish cult which is at
>war with its parent Jewish cult, Judaism, over ideology and
>claims regarding chosenness. The Christians sought to SUPPLANT
>the Jews as the chosen people.

    Then I wouldn't call it a COUNTER-chosen people ideology.  To me the 
phrase means rejecting the *idea* of a chosen people entirely.  Better to 
call it a counter-Jewish ideology if you mean counter-one-specific-chosen 
people.

>Reread the New Testament, and especially the
>writings of Paul, the founder of Christianity. Paul is engaged in
>an angry repudiation of the parent cult, particularly regarding
>claims of chosenness.

    You mean like the following:

    "For I am not ashamed of the gospel: it is the power of G-d for 
salvation to every one who has faith, to the Jew first and also to the
                                      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 
Greek."  (The Letter of Paul to the Romans, 1:16, RSV)

    Yup, sure looks like an angry repudiation of the chosenness of the 
Jews to me.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


Article 16023 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: "G-d's Chosen"
In-Reply-To: wmcguire@world.std.com's message of Tue, 13 Sep 1994 18:22:46 GMT
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References:  <3452ot$3n3@scunix2.harvard.edu>
	 
	<34u948$eoh@access3.digex.net> 
	 
Date: Wed, 14 Sep 1994 05:18:50 GMT
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From: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire)
>But this chosen people game in the West clearly began with
>Judaism.

If we are to use any sort of continuous time-line you could easily
argue that all of Western Civilization began with Judaism. How many
other groups have had so much influence on Western Civ continuously
since at least 1300BC?

Anyhow, this is a silly point to make, obviously a lot of people in
the west, the vast majority even, felt quite comfortable picking and
choosing what they liked out of older traditions.

>Christianity, Islam, and Nazism were all REACTIONS to
>the chosen people claims of the Jews. Go back and read the New
>Testament, in case you have forgotten the basic history of ideas.

I suspect I've read more of this literature than you have, including
early Christian Church scripture. It's a hobby of mine.

I don't see any basis for your claiming that Christianity was some
sort of reaction to the "chosen people" idea. I'm not even sure it was
all that prevelant as a concept until fairly recently (in these time
lines fairly recently might be the last 500-1000 years.)

It's a phrase, Wayne. What exactly do you believe "The Chosen People"
means that's so different from "America First" or "Nomine patria, et
fils, et spirituo sancto..." or a zillion other tag lines on this
earth that say: WE GOT IT RIGHT! (?)

>You didn't answer my point that the chosen people ideology is at
>the root of a good deal and perhaps most of the friction between
>Jews and the rest of the world.

Of course I did, you didn't read carefully.

What difference is there between the Jews saying they believe they are
God's chosen people (based on their scriptures which, plus or minus
how much you believe in those scriptures at all, does seem to be
there, personally I don't subscribe to literal readings) or Christians
asserting that you shall not enter the Kingdom of Heaven except
through acceptance of Jesus Christ?

Well, one difference is that judaism isn't a proselytizing religion,
so the intention of such a phrase is quite different, they're not
advertising for converts.

>My nation is better
>than your nation. My ethnic group is better than your ethnic
>group. My tribe is better than your tribe. My territory is more
>sacred than your territory. God loves me better than he loves
>you.

Yeah, ok, it goes on all over the world and among virtually ever
people on earth.

So why did you decide to ask the Jews to clean up their act first?

Don't you have your own house to clean?

You still don't get it.

All you're saying is that Jews, just like most every other group on
this planet, like to say it's pretty good to be one of them.

You've decided that this is a problem because when someone else does
that also there could be friction.

And you've decided therefore this friction could be reduced if the
Jews would just give it up (and let everyone else do it in peace I
suppose.)

What's wrong with this picture?

I'm not defending the concept, I'm just wondering out loud why you've
chosen the Jews, of all the hundreds if not thousands of groups
(ethnic, religious and otherwise) to clean up their act first?

Apparently in your philosophy the Jews truly are the Chosen People,
you've chosen them, from among everyone else on this planet, to scold
for being ethnically cohesive. What a blessing!

So what divinely egoless group do you identify yourself with?

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 16024 of alt.revisionism:
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From: golux@mcs.com (The only Golux in the World and not a mere Device.)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A revisionist defines
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: Wed, 14 Sep 1994 00:37:12 -0600
Organization: MCSNet Services
Lines: 28
Message-ID: 
References: <40.7175.1168@channel1.com>    <56VTk0yNU2x9069yn@world.std.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: golux.pr.mcs.net

In article <56VTk0yNU2x9069yn@world.std.com>, wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne
McGuire) wrote:

> In article ,
> codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) wrote:
> 
> //The point I was attempting to make is that the Arabs in Israel are very
> //much second-class citizens.  There are two or three Arabs in the Knesset.
> //Nuff said.
> 
> If the anti-revisionists in this newsgroup are denying the fact
> that Arabs are very much second-class citizens in Israel, they
> are seriously blowing their credibility. No one who is familiar with
> the facts about Israel will deny this assertion for a second.

Perhaps, just on this tiny point (i.e., the contention that "Arabs are
second-class citizens in Israel") it would be helpful if you would define
the terms.  What is meant, specifically, by "second-class citizen," and
what is the evidence that Arabs meet the criteria?

I am not personally familiar with "the facts about Israel" on this point,
so I would appreciate an answer to these questions.  Again:

1.  What are the criteria for being a "second-class citizen"?

2.  How do the Arabs in Israel meet these criteria?

Thanks.


Article 16025 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: "G-d's Chosen"
In-Reply-To: wmcguire@world.std.com's message of Tue, 13 Sep 1994 20:23:01 GMT
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References:  
	<34u948$eoh@access3.digex.net> 
	<351sr2$70o@access2.digex.net> 
Date: Wed, 14 Sep 1994 05:33:18 GMT
Lines: 93


From: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire)
>Absolutely. Christianity is basically a Jewish cult which is at
>war with its parent Jewish cult, Judaism, over ideology and
>claims regarding chosenness.

Oh come now, not too long ago the Christian Church would've burned you
at the stake for the heresy of Manicheanism for suggesting this.

Do you really view the world in this simplistic good-guy / bad-guy
way? These two people are a little different so therefore one has to
win, one must be good the other bad? Even the Pope gave that up a
while ago.

>Really, this is Religion 101--you
>don't know this? Reread the New Testament, and especially the
>writings of Paul, the founder of Christianity. Paul is engaged in
>an angry repudiation of the parent cult, particularly regarding
>claims of chosenness.

Gee, I guess that's why Jesus' brother, the first Bishop (or the first
Bishop outside of Rome, first Bishop of Jerusalem if memory serves me,
I suppose Peter was the first Bishop), remained an Orthodox Jew all
his life (until he was martyred.)  See, for example, Eusubius.

I think you're the one that needs to review what you think you know.

Yes, Paul et al are trying to reform Judaism and basically lay claim
to Judaism. It's all very interesting. And many Church of England
clergy, post Reformation, will tell you they ARE the Catholic Church
and that as far as they are concerned that Rome/Vatican stuff has been
dissolved.

I dunno, lah-dee-dah.

>This is really the fastest gun in the West syndrome: if you claim
>to be the chosen people, every other high-testosterone group in
>the world will immediately challenge you and try to put you
>under.

And vice versa.

>Surely you are aware that there has been tremendous debate in the
>Jewish world for the last hundred years or more about the
>negative side of the chosen people claim? Many of the brightest
>Jewish minds want to do away with this ideology altogether.

A fine idea.

So what is your group doing to reduce this kind of friction? Other
than wagging their fingers at Jews?

>What's really revealing about the Old Testament rendition of the
>claim is that it is inextricably entwined with territorial
>conquest and genocide: the chosen people, by the very fact of
>their chosenness, earned the divine right to conquer territory
>and annihilate their enemies, including women and children.
>Claims about chosenness and naked aggression always seem to
>travel side by side.

Ahem, unlike some other religions we could mention. And in much more
recent memory.

What you're doing here, you realize, is using the Old Testament as
historical fact source.

That's an interesting thing to do on a group where people are
demanding PHYSICAL EVIDENCE of the Holocaust.

>What does all this have to do with the Holocaust? A Holocaust
>cult has emerged which claims explicitly or implicitly that the
>murder of 6 million Jews was a crime on a scale and of a severity
>that is unmatched by any other crime in world history.

Unmatched? References, please?

I think most people who hear this, and who know something about the
subject, immediately assume that folks throw these superlatives in
because it sounds so good to their argument. That's all.

But when your argument is basically based upon this superlative,
rather than the event in general, and you're not ready to back up that
superlative, then you have no argument. Period.

So how exactly does a bunch of Jews sitting around a Passover Seder
saying to each other ``and He delivered us because WE were God's
Chosen'' affect you?

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 16033 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Vicksell and the Auschwitz Brothel
Date: 14 Sep 1994 06:24:45 GMT
Organization: Brown University
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <3564vd$iv3@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
References:   
NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu

Vicksell does not seem to be able to understand a simple question.

Why does he accept the testimonies about the brothel, while rejecting
each and every testimony about mass murder in the camp?

There are certainly more people who testified about mass murder
than about the brothel.

So? Any answer?

Certainly, no one is going to take seriously someone who just
arbitrarily accept some testimonies while rejecting many more
testimonies. This is ridiculous.

-Danny Keren.




Article 16036 of alt.revisionism:
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Re the Whiteway gas chamber:
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References:  
Date: Wed, 14 Sep 1994 06:01:10 GMT
Lines: 43

Jamie McCarthy (k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu) wrote:
: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS) wrote:

: > Re the Whiteway gas chamber being "poorly documented":  poorly documented
: > yes, but prominently promoted by the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum.  Why?

: "Prominently promoted."

: It's mentioned once in one book by Berenbaum, the director of that museum.
: It was pretty short, as I recall.  Starts at the bottom of page 6 and goes
: to the bottom of page 7, and most of page 7 is taken up by a photo or
: something (I don't have the book here but I think that's right).

: That book is a glossy-paper coffee-table fund-raising book.  It's set in
: fairly large type.  It's mostly pictures.  It's clearly one of those things
: meant to raise public consciousness but not really to get in-depth about
: much in particular.

: "Prominently promoted."  One page in one book is "prominently promoted."

Whiteway's story is the very first extended quotation in the book, on page
one of chapter one, which gives in prominence, in my book.  Right after it
we have: 

The journalist Fred Friendly describes Malthausen, the last of the camps 
liberated by the Americans, to his mother.  He tried to make it real for 
her. 'This was no movie, no printed page,' he wrote. 'Your son saw this 
with his own eyes and in doing this aged ten years.'

'I saw a shower room where 150 prisoners at a time were disrobed and 
ordered in for a shower which never gushed forth from the sprinkers 
because the chemical was gas.  When they ran out of gas, they merely 
sucked the air out of the room.' "

This gives you some idea of the standards of historical accuracy hewed to 
by Berenbaum.

Interestingly, he uses a similar approach in his museum; in the elevator
on the way up to the fourth floor, at the start of the tour, you hear the
hushed voice of an American G.I. recounting the horrors he saw on entering
a German concentration camp. 

               Ross Vicksell


Article 16037 of alt.revisionism:
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: David Irving
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
References: <34tuok$4o4@hebron.connected.com>
Date: Wed, 14 Sep 1994 06:10:16 GMT
Lines: 5

David Irving is coming to the U.S. for a speaking tour soon.  I'll give 
you more dope about the wheres and whens when I find out more about it 
myself.

            Ross Vicksell


Article 16038 of alt.revisionism:
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: "Polish Historical Society"
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
References: <1994Sep03.050330.2051@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>   <352ei7$stf@casaba.srv.cs.cmu.edu>
Date: Wed, 14 Sep 1994 07:02:24 GMT
Lines: 49

spok+@cs.cmu.edu (John Ockerbloom) writes:

>In article ,
>Greg Raven  wrote:
>>In article , codfish@netcom.com (Ross
>>Vicksell) wrote:
>>
>>> Ken Mcvay (kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca) wrote:
>>> (text deleted)
>>>                      Irene Zdziarski
>>>                      Stamford, Conn, Dec. 23, 1993
>>> 
>>> The writer is chairwoman, holocaust Committee, Polish Historical Society.
>>
>>I'm sure that what Mcvay meant to say is that "Irene Zdziarski" is put
>>forward as the chairwoman of the Holocaust Committee of the PHS, as he
>>certainly must know that this is a pseudonym.

It's unfortunate but true that many revisionists are still in the 
closet.  They have jobs, and families to support.

>Er, despite the way you've got it presented here, the attribution you
>quoted was provided by Vicksell, not McVay.  (I'm willing to assume

Actually, the attribution is the NYT's, not mine.  Check it if you don't 
believe me: 1/1/94.

>this was an honest confusion in reading Vicksell's article, which
>quoted McVay's signature at the end even though there was no text of
>his in the vicinity.)  But I'm curious: since you seem to know, who is
>"Irene Zdziarski" a pseudonym for?

>Of course, don't let this distract you from trying to explain how the
>Posen speech, which mentions more than once that the Jews are to be

My friend Jack Wikoff is working on a piece about the Posen speech, which 
will presumably post when he hooks up to the net within the next couple 
of weeks.

>exterminated, didn't really mean it.  Or what standards you require for
>deciding the trurth of historical events (like, say, the existence of
>World War II.)  Or... well, there are a bunch of unanswered questions pending,
>actually, but if you've got a spare minute or two, I'd also find the
>pseudonym question interesting.  (Or, if anyone else knows, post away!)

>John Ockerbloom
>-- 
>==========================================================================
>ockerbloom@cs.cmu.edu  CMU School of Computer Science, Pittsburgh PA 15213


Article 16041 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Re the Whiteway gas chamber:
In-Reply-To: codfish@netcom.com's message of Wed, 14 Sep 1994 06:01:10 GMT
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References: 
	
	
Date: Wed, 14 Sep 1994 08:43:32 GMT
Lines: 64


Did these people say these things or not?

You seem to be saying that what you want is proof that what they SAID
was true. That's nice, but perhaps a little irrelevant to your point.

If these people said what they said, and it was transcribed and
represented correctly, that IS historical accuracy. It was what these
people said.

When that radio announcer who was watching the Hindenburg disaster
said it was the most horrible thing he ever saw do we immediately wish
to probe his life to find out if it really was the most horrible thing
he ever saw? Or do we find it interesting enough to listen to him say
that, gives us some feeling for what went on at the tragedy.

Maybe someone said they saw ``the air sucked out of the room''. Maybe
it's true, or maybe they don't really know what they saw or how it
happened. But what comes through is that they said there was a room, a
lot of people went into it and somehow they left dead. Even if he was
merely speculating at how they died does that really lessen what he's
really saying? I don't think so. I think the point comes through loud
and clear.

I think you guys are re-arranging deck chairs on the Titanic. You
might be able to prove that this guy didn't see air being sucked out
of the room, it seems unlikely, but that doesn't bring you one
nanometer closer to showing that millions of people weren't murdered.

You've also got to deal with how in the world someone got all these
thousands of witnesses to lie, and so consistently. From Jews and
Gypsies and Nazi soldiers in the death camps to Allied troops. What
could have possibly prompted all these people to lie so consistently?

That's perhaps something worthwhile chewing on. As a friend used to
say:


	Failure to understand reality is never reality's fault.


From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
>The journalist Fred Friendly describes Malthausen, the last of the camps 
>liberated by the Americans, to his mother.  He tried to make it real for 
>her. 'This was no movie, no printed page,' he wrote. 'Your son saw this 
>with his own eyes and in doing this aged ten years.'
>
>'I saw a shower room where 150 prisoners at a time were disrobed and 
>ordered in for a shower which never gushed forth from the sprinkers 
>because the chemical was gas.  When they ran out of gas, they merely 
>sucked the air out of the room.' "
>
>This gives you some idea of the standards of historical accuracy hewed to 
>by Berenbaum.
>
>Interestingly, he uses a similar approach in his museum; in the elevator
>on the way up to the fourth floor, at the start of the tour, you hear the
>hushed voice of an American G.I. recounting the horrors he saw on entering
>a German concentration camp. 
-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 16042 of alt.revisionism:
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From: pankiewicz@sun1000.ci.pwr.wroc.pl (Jerzy Pankiewicz)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "Polish Historical Society"
Date: 14 Sep 1994 11:01:18 +0200
Organization: Technical Univeristy of Wroclaw
Lines: 9
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X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]

Ross Vicksell (codfish@netcom.com) wrote:

: The word "hoocaust" was not capitalized in its earliest references uses 
: in reference to World War II, even in Jewish sources.  Indeed, while 
: mainstream publicatiobs reported, for instance, the two million Jews had
                                                      ??????????? 
: been "exterminated in Treblinka death house" with "heat and steam" (New 
: York Times, Aug. 8, 1943), they did not use the word holocaust.



Article 16060 of alt.revisionism:
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From: golux@mcs.com (The only Golux in the World, and not a mere Device)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: David Irving
Date: Wed, 14 Sep 1994 22:00:44 -0600
Organization: MCSNet Services
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References: <34tuok$4o4@hebron.connected.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: golux.pr.mcs.net

In article , codfish@netcom.com (Ross
Vicksell) wrote:

> David Irving is coming to the U.S. for a speaking tour soon.  I'll give 
> you more dope about the wheres and whens when I find out more about it 
> myself.

It's really too easy.  I shouldn't.... Oh what the hell.

Ross, you have an amazing knack for choosing just the right words.

-- 
D. J. Schaeffer |       The Todal looks like a blob of glup.
golux@mcs.com   |     It makes a sound like rabbits screaming,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^        and smells of old, unopened rooms.
                            -- Thurber, _The 13 Clocks_


Article 16066 of alt.revisionism:
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: "Polish Historical Society"
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References: <1994Sep03.050330.2051@oneb.almanac.bc.ca> 
Date: Thu, 15 Sep 1994 01:56:20 GMT
Lines: 34

Jamie McCarthy (k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu) wrote:
: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) wrote:

: > My friend Jack Wikoff is working on a piece about the Posen speech, which 
: > will presumably post when he hooks up to the net within the next couple 
: > of weeks.

: Hope it'll be better than the Wikoff reply you posted for him a few months
: ago.  You know, the one where he was taken to task for actually getting
: _aerial photos_ of a camp to prove that Goeth couldn't have shot inmates
: from his villa balcony, without taking the trouble to simply read the book
: in the first place and learn that, at the time, he was taking the shots
: from his temporary villa on the other side of the camp?

: And wasn't that the same Wikoff who, upon having his disinformation attempt
: exposed, demanded that we provide proof that Goeth _could_ have taken the
: shots from the temporary villa, as if the burden of proof were on us not
: him?  A charming character, Wikoff.  Look forward to his explanation of
: "auszurotten - sprich also, umzubringen," since you, Ross, respond with
: silence when confronted with that quote.  As does Raven, apparently.
: -- 
:  Jamie McCarthy   Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu   AppleLink: j.mccarthy
:  "You seem to be selectively defining words to suit yourself, and then
:   demanding that I accept your definitions."          - Greg Raven, 8/26/94
:  "Do you understand that a testimony is not evidence?" - Greg Raven, 9/1/94

w.r.t. Goeth, our leading Goeth expert, John Ball, will be joining out 
little discussion group soon.  He'll have some interesting things to 
point out, e.g. that the transcript of Goeth's trial in Poland makes no 
mention of a "temporary" villa."


              Eoss Vicksell



Article 16067 of alt.revisionism:
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Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Shape of Things to Come
Message-ID: <3510vn$e8u@scunix2.harvard.edu>
From: stara@fas.harvard.edu (Felix Vagabond)
Date: 12 Sep 1994 07:45:59 GMT
References: <3452ot$3n3@scunix2.harvard.edu> 
    
  
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Ross Vicksell (codfish@netcom.com) wrote:

: The only people I know who make a "living" off revisionism are Bradley 
: Smith, Ernst Zuendel, and the people at the IHR.  None of the rest of us 
: revisionists are in the slightest danger of losing our amateur standing.



 Who are the rest of you? !!!!!


: On the other hand, there are thousands of people making a living off the 
: Holocaust affirmation business, notably the staffs of the Holocaust 
: museums and memorials around the world.

    How pathetic can you get?
  The people at the Museum are not all hirelings, some do, but a lot of 
  them are volunteers. 

 I personaly have intense animosity toward Zuendel and I wish he would
 disappear.


: : Please ask
: : yourself; Why doesn't Brad Smith call for open debate on these topics?

: Bradley has made this abundantly clear. The Holocaust Story is just about 
: the only topic under the sun you can't discuss openly without suffering 
: major persecution, and I mean MAJOR: loss of job, social ostracism, etc.



  Mr.Smith his vehement antisemitic isn't the only motive, but the money
  and hatred he spews everywhere. He is a sick old fella who has made it his
  business to spread anti-semitism.



: You can talk all day about whether Mao killed X million Chinese, or 
: whether the Turks slaughtered the Armenians, or whether the British 
: massacred whoever and nobody will bother you.


   Yeh Ross I have been watching you for some time and haven't heard a thing 
   from you about them Turks or Chinese killings! Did you ever stop and think 
   about them. Yeh they are not Jews and therefore they can be semitics!
 

 Surely things would have been different if things were on the other side and
 you were the Jew and we have been the Nazis.! Maybe you would feel differently 
 and you might understand how it feels when revisionist digging and desecrating
 the dead ones and adding more injury into the survivors.




==============================================================================
  ( No memorial can ever exhibit or impart the holocaust of SIX MILLION Jews)

                   VIGILANS.ET AUDAX.SEMPER PARATUS.
              
==============================================================================



Article 16069 of alt.revisionism:
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Re the Whiteway gas chamber:
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References:  
Date: Thu, 15 Sep 1994 02:20:48 GMT
Lines: 72

Barry Shein (bzs@world.std.com) wrote:

: Did these people say these things or not?

: You seem to be saying that what you want is proof that what they SAID
: was true. That's nice, but perhaps a little irrelevant to your point.

: If these people said what they said, and it was transcribed and
: represented correctly, that IS historical accuracy. It was what these
: people said.

: When that radio announcer who was watching the Hindenburg disaster
: said it was the most horrible thing he ever saw do we immediately wish
: to probe his life to find out if it really was the most horrible thing
: he ever saw? Or do we find it interesting enough to listen to him say
: that, gives us some feeling for what went on at the tragedy.

: Maybe someone said they saw ``the air sucked out of the room''. Maybe
: it's true, or maybe they don't really know what they saw or how it
: happened. But what comes through is that they said there was a room, a
: lot of people went into it and somehow they left dead. Even if he was
: merely speculating at how they died does that really lessen what he's
: really saying? I don't think so. I think the point comes through loud
: and clear.

: I think you guys are re-arranging deck chairs on the Titanic. You
: might be able to prove that this guy didn't see air being sucked out
: of the room, it seems unlikely, but that doesn't bring you one
: nanometer closer to showing that millions of people weren't murdered.

: You've also got to deal with how in the world someone got all these
: thousands of witnesses to lie, and so consistently. From Jews and
: Gypsies and Nazi soldiers in the death camps to Allied troops. What
: could have possibly prompted all these people to lie so consistently?

: That's perhaps something worthwhile chewing on. As a friend used to
: say:


: 	Failure to understand reality is never reality's fault.


: From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
: >The journalist Fred Friendly describes Malthausen, the last of the camps 
: >liberated by the Americans, to his mother.  He tried to make it real for 
: >her. 'This was no movie, no printed page,' he wrote. 'Your son saw this 
: >with his own eyes and in doing this aged ten years.'
: >
: >'I saw a shower room where 150 prisoners at a time were disrobed and 
: >ordered in for a shower which never gushed forth from the sprinkers 
: >because the chemical was gas.  When they ran out of gas, they merely 
: >sucked the air out of the room.' "
: >
: >This gives you some idea of the standards of historical accuracy hewed to 
: >by Berenbaum.
: >
: >Interestingly, he uses a similar approach in his museum; in the elevator
: >on the way up to the fourth floor, at the start of the tour, you hear the
: >hushed voice of an American G.I. recounting the horrors he saw on entering
: >a German concentration camp. 
: -- 
:         -Barry Shein

: Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
: Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


My quarrel is not with Fred Friendly but with Michael Berenbaum, who 
KNOWS Friendly's description of the shower room at Malthausen is 
inaccurate, but includes it in his book anyway.

        Ross Vicksell


Article 16075 of alt.revisionism:
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From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "Polish Historical Society"
Date: Wed, 14 Sep 1994 12:25:07 -0400
Organization: University of Michigan
Lines: 24
Message-ID: 
References: <1994Sep03.050330.2051@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
   
   
   <352ei7$stf@casaba.srv.cs.cmu.edu>
   
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm005-04.dialip.mich.net

codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) wrote:

> My friend Jack Wikoff is working on a piece about the Posen speech, which 
> will presumably post when he hooks up to the net within the next couple 
> of weeks.

Hope it'll be better than the Wikoff reply you posted for him a few months
ago.  You know, the one where he was taken to task for actually getting
_aerial photos_ of a camp to prove that Goeth couldn't have shot inmates
from his villa balcony, without taking the trouble to simply read the book
in the first place and learn that, at the time, he was taking the shots
from his temporary villa on the other side of the camp?

And wasn't that the same Wikoff who, upon having his disinformation attempt
exposed, demanded that we provide proof that Goeth _could_ have taken the
shots from the temporary villa, as if the burden of proof were on us not
him?  A charming character, Wikoff.  Look forward to his explanation of
"auszurotten - sprich also, umzubringen," since you, Ross, respond with
silence when confronted with that quote.  As does Raven, apparently.
-- 
 Jamie McCarthy   Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu   AppleLink: j.mccarthy
 "You seem to be selectively defining words to suit yourself, and then
  demanding that I accept your definitions."          - Greg Raven, 8/26/94
 "Do you understand that a testimony is not evidence?" - Greg Raven, 9/1/94


Article 16087 of alt.revisionism:
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: David Irving
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References: <34tuok$4o4@hebron.connected.com> <356q40$nrb@sun1000.ci.pwr.wroc.pl>
Date: Thu, 15 Sep 1994 02:04:02 GMT
Lines: 12

Jerzy Pankiewicz (pankiewicz@sun1000.ci.pwr.wroc.pl) wrote:

: Has ever the great historian David Irving visited Auschwitz?

What's to see?

: I don't remember the idiot here. I think that he wouldn't
: dare.
:                    Jerzy Pankiewicz





Article 16088 of alt.revisionism:
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Remembering the Holocaust and Bosnia
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References: <34tgpq$6v@nntp2.Stanford.EDU>
Date: Thu, 15 Sep 1994 06:04:33 GMT
Lines: 4

So what IS Students Against GEnocide doing to help the Bosnians?  
Are you lohbying to get the arms embargo lifted?

            Ross Vicksell


Article 16100 of alt.revisionism:
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From: freedman@software.mitel.com (Gordon Freedman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Vicksell and the Auschwitz Brothel (was: Re: Apology to Ro
Date: 15 Sep 1994 10:39:17 -0400
Organization: Mitel Corporation
Lines: 19
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Ross Vicksell (codfish@netcom.com) wrote:
: Not your typical extermination camp.

:              Ross Vicksell


Unfortunately Ross, I do not have a typical extermination camp and - Danny
can correct me if I'm wrong - neither does Danny.

Perhaps as an "expert," you can take the time to educate me on the typical
extermination camp and why Auschwitz can not be so categorized.

Gordon

- My opinions. Not theirs.






Article 16126 of alt.revisionism:
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From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "Polish Historical Society"
Date: Thu, 15 Sep 1994 17:59:22 -0400
Organization: University of Michigan
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References: <1994Sep03.050330.2051@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
   
   
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm005-05.dialip.mich.net

codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) wrote:

> w.r.t. Goeth, our leading Goeth expert, John Ball, will be joining out 
> little discussion group soon.  He'll have some interesting things to 
> point out, e.g. that the transcript of Goeth's trial in Poland makes no 
> mention of a "temporary" villa."

In other words, the same material that you posted for Ball and Wikoff
in late July.  Ho hum.

Tell both of them I'd like to hear their reaction to Himmler's Poznan
speeches.  As I would yours.  That's the topic of the hour;  why not
address it?

Ross, how come you, the regional director for the Committee for Open
Debate on the Holocaust emailed me expressly to say that you didn't
want to get into the "debate" about the Poznan speeches?  Hm, a committee
for debate whose members don't want to debate.  Odd!

Thought about changing the name to Committee for Ostensible Debate On
the Holocaust?  You could keep the acronym...
-- 
 Jamie McCarthy   Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu   AppleLink: j.mccarthy
 "You seem to be selectively defining words to suit yourself, and then
  demanding that I accept your definitions."          - Greg Raven, 8/26/94
 "Do you understand that a testimony is not evidence?" - Greg Raven, 9/1/94


Article 16140 of alt.revisionism:
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From: stschulz@informatik.uni-kl.de (Stephan Schulz)
Subject: Re: Remembering the Holocaust and Bosnia
Message-ID: <1994Sep16.005745.14014@uklirb.informatik.uni-kl.de>
Sender: news@uklirb.informatik.uni-kl.de (Unix-News-System)
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Date: Fri, 16 Sep 1994 00:57:45 GMT
Lines: 29

In article , codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) writes:
|> So what IS Students Against GEnocide doing to help the Bosnians?  
|> Are you lohbying to get the arms embargo lifted?
|> 

I don't know anything about "Students Against Genocide", but I am
amazed at the simple solutions both Ross and Wayne can offer - Ross
seems to support the lifting of the arms embargo and Wayne argues for
a military intervention (how he can argue this and still call himself
_libertarian_ is beyond me, unless libertarian has become a cover name
for all vaguely right-wing persons claiming to be "the real
patriots").

Can you tell why this would solve the problem in Bosnia without much
more bloodshed than currently occurs? _I_ simply don't _know_ a
workable way that, with a reasonable amount of security, would end
this conflict. I therefore restrict myself to talk and persuasion...as
I do on this list and a different topic.

I do indeed think that keeping alive memories of the past are one of
the best ways to avoid future mistakes... 


Stephan

-------------------------- It can be done! ---------------------------------
    Please email me as stschulz@informatik.uni-kl.de (Stephan Schulz)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------



Article 16142 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mstein@access3.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: The Trial of Amon Goeth
Date: 15 Sep 1994 21:48:08 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <35atgo$jme@access3.digex.net>
References: <1994Sep03.050330.2051@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>  
NNTP-Posting-Host: access3.digex.net

In article ,
Ross Vicksell  wrote:
>w.r.t. Goeth, our leading Goeth expert, John Ball, will be joining out 
>little discussion group soon.  He'll have some interesting things to 
>point out, e.g. that the transcript of Goeth's trial in Poland makes no 
>mention of a "temporary" villa."

    Goeth was tried for "crimes against humanity."  There would of course
be rather less reason mention the temporary villa since he was not being
tried for the specific crime of the quarry shooting.  I'm sure when Ball
arrives he'll tell us on what page of Goeth's trial transcript is the
quarry shooting is mentioned, and how much focus is placed on it.

    Oh, Ross?  Do tell him we expect in-context quotes with precise
bibliographic references, including page numbers.  Greg Raven has amply
demonstrated how misleading paraphrases can be. 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


Article 16148 of alt.revisionism:
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From: charles11@delphi.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Dinner in Cambridge
Date: Thu, 15 Sep 94 22:39:39 -0500
Organization: Delphi (info@delphi.com email, 800-695-4005 voice)
Lines: 8
Message-ID: 
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: bos1e.delphi.com
X-To: Ross Vicksell 

Ross Vicksell  writes:
 
>I'm reiterating the proposal.  Lets us alt.revisionism fans get together
>at some easily accessible restaurant in Cambridge or Boston for an evening
>of food and conversation.  If you're interested, holler. 
 
Count me in. I live inSharon and as a victim of the Nazis I am more than
interested.


Article 16151 of alt.revisionism:
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From: golux@mcs.com (The only Golux in the World, and not a mere Device)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Re the Whiteway gas chamber:
Date: Thu, 15 Sep 1994 23:10:00 -0600
Organization: MCSNet Services
Lines: 60
Message-ID: 
References:   
NNTP-Posting-Host: golux.pr.mcs.net

In article , codfish@netcom.com (Ross
Vicksell) wrote:

> Barry Shein (bzs@world.std.com) wrote:
> 
> : Did these people say these things or not?
> 
> : You seem to be saying that what you want is proof that what they SAID
> : was true. That's nice, but perhaps a little irrelevant to your point.
> 
> : If these people said what they said, and it was transcribed and
> : represented correctly, that IS historical accuracy. It was what these
> : people said.
[and then quoting:]
> : From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
> : >The journalist Fred Friendly describes Malthausen, the last of the camps 
> : >liberated by the Americans, to his mother.  He tried to make it real for 
> : >her. 'This was no movie, no printed page,' he wrote. 'Your son saw this 
> : >with his own eyes and in doing this aged ten years.'
> : >
> : >'I saw a shower room where 150 prisoners at a time were disrobed and 
> : >ordered in for a shower which never gushed forth from the sprinkers 
> : >because the chemical was gas.  When they ran out of gas, they merely 
> : >sucked the air out of the room.' "
> : >
> : >This gives you some idea of the standards of historical accuracy hewed to 
> : >by Berenbaum.

> My quarrel is not with Fred Friendly but with Michael Berenbaum, who 
> KNOWS Friendly's description of the shower room at Malthausen is 
> inaccurate, but includes it in his book anyway.

Historical accuracy, in the context of the book in question, revolves
entirely around what people said they saw.  Not what they actually saw,
not what was actually there, but what they said they saw, what they said
they felt.  Fred Friendly wrote to his mother, AFTER the liberation of the
camp.  He was describing the room he saw, but it was clear that at that
time, the room would no longer have been in use.  Who knows where he got
his information or impression of what went on in the room.  Certainly he
doesn't claim to have seen it happening.

Berenbaum's reasons for including Friendly's story in the book are
unknown.  To you, it shows a disregard for historical accuracy; I haven't
seen the book itself, so I don't know if the post-liberation testimonies
are presented as "proving" the Nazi atrocities or merely to show the
reactions of those who came after to pick up the pieces.  However, since
no historian relies on Friendly's story to describe or interpret the
Holocaust, then its inclusion in what is, from all reports, a souvenir
coffee-table book, is pretty insignificant.

Ross, why haven't you addressed the Himmler speech at Poznan?  There is
apparently some contention that this speech is inauthentic, or doesn't
mean what it says, or some such.  Why don't you discuss that instead of
Fred Friendly?

-- 
D. J. Schaeffer |       The Todal looks like a blob of glup.
golux@mcs.com   |     It makes a sound like rabbits screaming,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^        and smells of old, unopened rooms.
                            -- Thurber, _The 13 Clocks_


Article 16193 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!news.island.net!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!scipio.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!sgiblab!pacbell.com!amdahl!netcomsv!netcom.com!codfish
From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Fred A. Leuchter Jr... You Forget Something?
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References: <3580u4$n2q@search01.news.aol.com> <3585aq$ofs@search01.news.aol.com>
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 1994 15:30:25 GMT
Lines: 9

If you had lost 20 pounds in a month-long incarceration in a German
prison, would you be eager to go back for more?  (And Fred was skinny to
start out with.) The odds on his getting jugged again if he were to go back
to Germany are quite high. 

Hey, maybe the OSI could track him down.  Since they're running out of 
"Nazis" they should be thinking about making the switch to "neo-Nazis."

               Ross


Article 16195 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mstein@access.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "G-d's Chosen"
Date: 12 Sep 1994 11:41:22 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 43
Message-ID: <351sr2$70o@access2.digex.net>
References:   <34u948$eoh@access3.digex.net> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access2.digex.net

In article ,
Wayne McGuire  wrote:
>Christianity, Islam, and even Nazism were essentially
>COUNTER-chosen people ideologies (see George Bernard Shaw on
>Nazism for instance). Typical brain-damaged conflict: Tribe A:
>I'm the chosen people. Tribe B: No *I'M* the chosen people.

    Excuse me?  "Anyone not believing in Christ is going to Hell" (talking
about doubtful and arrogant claims) is a COUNTER-chosen people ideology?  
"Aryans are the master race" is not a non-theological version of a chosen 
people ideology?

>Your suggestion that the poster turn to soc.culture.jewish for an
>understanding of "the chosen people" is perhaps unwise: I have
>repeatedly seen the most vile interpretation of that phrase
>presented in that conference with the utmost religious sincerity
>by Orthodox Jews who claimed that their chosenness gave them a
>divine right to take supposed Jewish Holy Land from the
>Palestinians.

    Misinterpretation of scripture is hardly confined to Jews.  In this
case, though, while I do not have the particulars on the posts you talk
about, I think the justification proceeds from a different theological
basis.

    Still for the purposes of this group, all of this is really neither
here nor there.  Even the question of whether the Holocaust was unique in
some sense is more of a philosophical argument than an historical one,
since there's *something* unique you could point to in every historical
event.  It's interesting, to be sure, but I'm not really convinced this is
the proper newsgroup for the discussion.

    As far as the question of whether someone has a motive for distorting
objective history, I think you should identify patterns of distortion on
the part of a person before impugning the integrity of someone by
suggesting that the person has dishonest or selfish motives and 
*insinuating* that the person has been engaging in such distortion 
without actually citing examples of it.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


Article 16199 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mstein@access.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Is Greg Raven telepathic?
Date: 12 Sep 1994 12:24:20 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 16
Message-ID: <351vbk$afp@access2.digex.net>
References: <1994Sep03.050330.2051@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>  
NNTP-Posting-Host: access2.digex.net

In article ,
Greg Raven  wrote:
>I'm sure that what Mcvay meant to say is that "Irene Zdziarski" is put
>forward as the chairwoman of the Holocaust Committee of the PHS, as he
>certainly must know that this is a pseudonym.

    What is your BEST EVIDENCE that Ken McVay knows this?  Do you now
claim telepathic powers?

    (Come to think of it, what's your BEST EVIDENCE that it's a
pseudonym?)

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


Article 16203 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!kmcvay
From: kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay)
Subject: Is Greg Raven telepathic, or just lying again?
References:   <351vbk$afp@access2.digex.net>
Organization: The Old Frog's Almanac
Message-ID: <1994Sep16.230053.867@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 94 23:00:53 GMT

In article <351vbk$afp@access2.digex.net> mstein@access.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) writes:

>In article ,
>Greg Raven  wrote:
>>I'm sure that what Mcvay meant to say is that "Irene Zdziarski" is put
>>forward as the chairwoman of the Holocaust Committee of the PHS, as he
>>certainly must know that this is a pseudonym.

>    What is your BEST EVIDENCE that Ken McVay knows this?  Do you now
>claim telepathic powers?

I have a much better question: What is Mr. Raven's single best
evidence that I even _said_ that?

Given that I most certainly did _not_ write anything about Irene
Zdz~, it will be more than a little amusing to see how this "senior
editor" can explain how, given his patent inability to keep track of
who said what a _day_ or two ago, he should be believed in any
respect with regard to his assertions about what folks said fifty or
so _years_ ago....

Then, of course, there was his recent complaint about the Posen
speech being posted out of context (i.e. without comparision to
other Himmler speeches of the period), which is an amazing complaint
from the man who flat _insists_ that we can only deal with _one_
document at a time. Talk about your double standards....

Pot. Kettle. Black.

-- 
  "Everything I do is done with the full knowledge of the Fuehrer." 
  (Himmler, Heinrich.  See Jochen von Lang, "Der Adjutant: Karl Wolff,"
                Munich: Herbig, 1985, pp .  140ff)


Article 16206 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Vicksell and the Auschwitz Brothel (was: Re: Apology to Ro
Date: 12 Sep 1994 17:44:16 GMT
Organization: Brown University
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <35241g$qlr@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
References:   <34vtek$4l3@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu

Ross Vicksell writes:

[about why he believes there was a brothel in Auschwitz]:

# My source is Ditlieb Felderer's testimony at the second Zuendel 
# trial. Felderer bases his testimony in part on an interview with 
# Franciszek Piper

But Piper also says there was mass murder by gas in the camp.

WHY do you believe one part of what he says and not the other?

# It was not a secret that the camp had a 
# brothel: it was mentioned in books and its existence was confirmed by 
# Auschwitz camp officials. 

But all these people also said that there was mass murder by gas in 
the camp.

WHY do you believe one part of what they say and not the other?

Do you understand the question?

Why do you take for granted some of the facts mentioned by
witnesses, while rejecting all the other facts mentioned by
them? 

Do you understand what I'm asking? If so, can you possibly answer
the question?


-Danny Keren.


Article 16207 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A revisionist defines
Date: 12 Sep 1994 17:52:00 GMT
Organization: Brown University
Lines: 11
Message-ID: <3524g0$r5c@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
References: <40.7175.1168@channel1.com>   
NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu

Ross Vicksell writes:

# The point I was attempting to make is that the Arabs in Israel are very 
# much second-class citizens.  There are two or three Arabs in the Knesset.
# Nuff said.

I will try to check the number. I think it's higher. If I find it,
I'll post a reply.


-Danny Keren.


Article 16213 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Fred A. Leuchter Jr... You Forget Something?
Date: 16 Sep 1994 23:11:10 GMT
Organization: Brown University
Lines: 10
Message-ID: <35d8me$3vu@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
References: <3580u4$n2q@search01.news.aol.com> <3585aq$ofs@search01.news.aol.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu

As a matter of fact, I agree with Vicksell. There's no use and no
justification to put Leuchter on trial. First, I don't support
the law which he is being tried for violating. Second, he's just a
little, insignificant clown. Even the "revisionists" don't mention 
his infantile "report" any more.


-Danny Keren.




Article 16220 of alt.revisionism:
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From: rjg@lyman.Stanford.EDU (Rich Green)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Remembering the Holocaust and Bosnia
Date: 16 Sep 1994 18:11:43 GMT
Organization: Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Lines: 49
Message-ID: <35cn4v$2ee@nntp.Stanford.EDU>
References: <34tgpq$6v@nntp2.Stanford.EDU>  <1994Sep16.005745.14014@uklirb.informatik.uni-kl.de>
NNTP-Posting-Host: d31rz2.stanford.edu
Originator: rjg@leland.Stanford.EDU

In article <1994Sep16.005745.14014@uklirb.informatik.uni-kl.de>,
Stephan Schulz  wrote:

---quote from a Nazi poster deleted
>
>I don't know anything about "Students Against Genocide", but I am
>amazed at the simple solutions both Ross and Wayne can offer - Ross
>seems to support the lifting of the arms embargo and Wayne argues for
>a military intervention (how he can argue this and still call himself
>_libertarian_ is beyond me, unless libertarian has become a cover name
>for all vaguely right-wing persons claiming to be "the real
>patriots").
>
>Can you tell why this would solve the problem in Bosnia without much
>more bloodshed than currently occurs? _I_ simply don't _know_ a
>workable way that, with a reasonable amount of security, would end
>this conflict. I therefore restrict myself to talk and persuasion...as
>I do on this list and a different topic.
>
>I do indeed think that keeping alive memories of the past are one of
>the best ways to avoid future mistakes... 
>
>
>Stephan
>

I know this thread is getting off topic (is off topic!).  I'll
keep it brief. I can understand your sentiments. 
Imagine if the people in the Warsaw uprising
were denied arms.  Imagine if the US military actively intervened
to prevent them from getting arms.

Lifting the arms embargo would allow these people to defend themselves
rather than be slaughtered.  Why should the US government be
spending money to protect the Serbian aggressors from the arms
that would surely flow in from the Muslim world?

I don't know if Vicksell and other Nazis support lifting the
embargo or not and frankly I don't care.

If you'd like to continue this thread let's do it via e-mail to
reduce the noise in this group.

Rich Green
rjg@lyman.Stanford.EDU


I agree the the situation in Bosnia is likely to 



Article 16230 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Vicksell and the BIG LIE of "Holocaust Revisionism" (was: Re: Fr
Date: 16 Sep 1994 23:20:17 GMT
Organization: Brown University
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <35d97h$494@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
References: <3580u4$n2q@search01.news.aol.com> <3585aq$ofs@search01.news.aol.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu

Vicksell still hasn't responded to the very simple question
addressed to him:

Why does he believe the testimony about the brothel at Auschwitz,
and not the testimony about mass murder in the camp?

There is certainly more evidence and testimony to the mass murder than
to the brothel. Why does he accept the latter and reject the first?

It's obvious Vicksell has no respect for the truth and that he 
decides which pieces of evidence to accept according to his
liking, not according to their intrinsic value. He's a liar
and a charlatan. He doesn't have any intellectual honesty.


-Danny Keren.




Article 16235 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!kmcvay
From: kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay)
Subject: Re: Vicksell and the BIG LIE of "Holocaust Revisionism" (was: Re: Fr
References: <3585aq$ofs@search01.news.aol.com>  <35d97h$494@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
Organization: The Old Frog's Almanac
Message-ID: <1994Sep17.034951.2378@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
Date: Sat, 17 Sep 94 03:49:51 GMT

In article <35d97h$494@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes:

>Vicksell still hasn't responded to the very simple question
>addressed to him:

>Why does he believe the testimony about the brothel at Auschwitz,
>and not the testimony about mass murder in the camp?

Perhaps more to the point, one might add that many survivors mention
the brothel; they mention being forced to bed SS men, since the
alternative was the gas chambers.

Given this convergence of evidence which Mr. Vicksell accepts, one
might wish to ask him this: Does he accept the survivors'
confirmation of the existence of the brothel? If so, how does he
then justify rejecting anything and everything _else_ a given
survivor might have to offer relating to the gas chambers, phenol
injections, and similar murderous activity?

Are we seeing the Vicksell Double Standard again?
		
>There is certainly more evidence and testimony to the mass murder than
>to the brothel. Why does he accept the latter and reject the first?

I can hardly wait for him to mention the "swimming pool" in order to
prove that Auschwitz was really a summer camp...

>It's obvious Vicksell has no respect for the truth and that he 
>decides which pieces of evidence to accept according to his
>liking, not according to their intrinsic value. He's a liar
>and a charlatan. He doesn't have any intellectual honesty.

It seems common to the breed... as his friends here have
demonstrated over and over again.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"You misunderstand the mission of CODOH.   We're  in  the  business of 
promoting open debate, not necessarily engaging in it."(Ross Vicksell)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

...and there you have it...

-- 
  "Everything I do is done with the full knowledge of the Fuehrer." 
  (Himmler, Heinrich.  See Jochen von Lang, "Der Adjutant: Karl Wolff,"
                Munich: Herbig, 1985, pp .  140ff)


Article 16250 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!scipio.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!swiss.ans.net!malgudi.oar.net!sun!oucsace!dspiegel
From: dspiegel@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu (Dan Spiegel)
Subject: Re: "G-d's Chosen"
Message-ID: 
Organization: Ohio University CS Dept,. Athens
References:    
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 1994 22:37:54 GMT
Lines: 59

   Nearly forgot to respond to this gem:

In article ,
Wayne McGuire  wrote:
>
> [Barry Shein's question why McGuire focuses 
>  on Judaism and Wayne's preamble deleted]
>
>But this chosen people game in the West clearly began with
>Judaism. Christianity, Islam, and Nazism were all REACTIONS to
>the chosen people claims of the Jews. Go back and read the New
>Testament, in case you have forgotten the basic history of ideas.

   You say that Nazism was a reaction to the "chosen people" concept 
of Judaism. Does this mean that it follows that the existence of Nazism 
was the Jews' fault, or that the Jews deserved what they got? I don't 
think you mean to imply this, but this statement is troubling.
   While Nazism had a lot of racial theory in its ideological base,
I believe that Nazism rose due to economic conditions. It became 
popular because of its promises to restore Germany to its "proper
place", i.e. to rebuild the German economy and reassert Germany's
dominant position in Central Europe.

>
>You didn't answer my point that the chosen people ideology is at
>the root of a good deal and perhaps most of the friction between
>Jews and the rest of the world. What makes Jewish chosen
>peopleness especially volatile is the integration of religion,
>nationalism, tribalism, ethnocentrism, and territorialism in one
>package. When ethnic and national groups make chosen people
>claims, and cloak those claims with religious symbolism, they
>invariably push the hottest primitive buttons of every other
>ethnic and national group.

   Am I reading this to say, "It's all the Jews' fault"?? 
  
>
>Primitive egoism. That is what underlies all the vicious conflict
>among the various equally ridiculous chosen peoples in the world.
>My religion is better than your religion. My nation is better
>than your nation. My ethnic group is better than your ethnic
>group. My tribe is better than your tribe. My territory is more
>sacred than your territory. God loves me better than he loves
>you.

   I agree with this. But to hold out Jews as more guilty than
other religions, tribes, ideologies, etc; is ridiculous. And I
get the impression that this is what is implied above.

>
>If some Jews want to adopt a chosen people stance concerning
>Israel and their ethnicity--and MANY do--fine. 

   What is it? some, or MANY? How many somes are in a MANY?

-DS
I speak for myself only.
No unsolicited e-mail, please. I'll read your flames with everyone else.
Please do not use my name in any subject headers.


Article 16264 of alt.revisionism:
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From: cyberknght@aol.com (CyberKnght)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Fred A. Leuchter Jr... You Forget Something?
Date: 17 Sep 1994 08:20:01 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 27
Sender: news@newsbf01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <35emth$dq8@newsbf01.news.aol.com>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf01.news.aol.com

In article , codfish@netcom.com (Ross
Vicksell) writes:

>>  If you had lost 20 pounds in a month-long incarceration in a German
>>  prison, would you be eager to go back for more?

Where do you get these figures from?  From Fred himself?  Fred has lied
about being an engineer and about servicing execution chambers.  Hardly a
credible witness.  And what is this "stomach condition" he says he has?  I
personally have witnessed Fred drinking coffee.  What kind of stomach
condition can allow someone to drink coffee?  And I saw him after his
return from Germany, and he was still skinny and still had his little 54
year old pot belly as always.  He hadn't appeared to have lost any weight,
and he was still drinking coffee. I've also seen him drinking something I
assumed was liquer, but I never bothered to check for certain, so I can't
swear to it.

And so what if he lost a couple pounds?  Isn't jail, in the words of Paula
Poundstone, supposed to be just a little bit bad for you?

>>Hey, maybe the OSI could track him down.  Since they're running out of
>>"Nazis" they should be thinking about making the switch to "neo-Nazis."

That's a good idea!   (Why is the word "Nazi" in quotes?  You believe
Nazis are like unicorns and mermaids, a myth?)

*(*(*(*(* CyberKnight *(*(*(*(*


Article 16387 of alt.revisionism:
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Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Dinner in Cambridge
Message-ID: <354chc$p6b@scunix2.harvard.edu>
From: stara@fas.harvard.edu (Felix Vagabond)
Date: 13 Sep 1994 14:21:32 GMT
References: 
Organization: Harvard University, Cambridge, Massachusetts
NNTP-Posting-Host: fas.harvard.edu
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Lines: 36

Ross Vicksell (codfish@netcom.com) wrote:
: It all started out when Felix Vagabond offered to treat me to dinner at 
: a restaurant in Cambridge if I managed to get Robert Faurisson to come on 
: the net.  Then another Boston area netter suggested that a different 
: restaurant would be better.  At that point I chimed in and suggested that 
: it would nice to get together regardless of whether I was able to recruit 
: Faurisson or not.

: I'm reiterating the proposal.  Lets us alt.revisionism fans get together
: at some easily accessible restaurant in Cambridge or Boston for an evening
: of food and conversation.  If you're interested, holler. 


  Ross as I have stated to Mike stein I have been forewarned by my father.
  But if you are willing to persuade Robert Faurisson to come, I'm gamed.
  Sorry Ross no cats at the table! I'm allergic to cats and smoke.
  Ps. I love all kinds of animals in the wild, and will never keep one as 
  a pet, cause I wouldn't like to be one like them, however, I'm carnivore,
  but most of the time like to eat vegies(especially organic).
  Ross have you been to Marino on Mass ave?
 



:                Ross Vicksell



--
==============================================================================
  ( No memorial can ever exhibit or impart the holocaust of SIX MILLION Jews)

                   VIGILANS.ET AUDAX.SEMPER PARATUS.
              
==============================================================================



Article 16388 of alt.revisionism:
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Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Vicksell and the Auschwitz Whore House (was: Re: Polish Historica
Message-ID: <354d8o$p6b@scunix2.harvard.edu>
From: stara@fas.harvard.edu (Felix Vagabond)
Date: 13 Sep 1994 14:34:00 GMT
References:  <3437cj$m6i@agate.berkeley.edu> 
  <34tc96$ha6@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
Organization: Harvard University, Cambridge, Massachusetts
NNTP-Posting-Host: fas.harvard.edu
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Lines: 57

Danny Keren (dzk@cs.brown.edu) wrote:
: Ross Vicksell  wrote:

: [about Auschwitz]

: # I'm serious.  They had a whore house too.

: As a matter of fact, this might be true. I recall reading somewhere
: that there was a brothel in Auschwitz, used by the SS and perhaps some
: of the kapos. Proves nothing, of course.

: But that is not the main issue.

: The main issue is that Vicksell agrees that there was a brothel in
: Auschwitz. That is, he accepts witness testimony regarding this.

: Why does Vicksell then reject the testimony of witnesses on mass
: murder in the camp? Certainly, many more witnesses spoke of this
: mass murder than about the brothel.

: This is so bloody transparent. It's so bloody stupid. 

: Vicksell uses the same rule used by every Holocaust denier: he accepts
: only the parts of the testimonies that he likes. These, he has no
: trouble accepting as genuine and accurate. The others, which he 
: doesn't like, he regards as lies.

: No more needs to be said. This little example shows very well what
: "Holocaust revisionism" is. 




  They feel if they fragmented the truth and then marry it with lies it might
  serve as facts and complacencies will add to it.
  Wrong. There people who work very hard to mend and cure the truth to its
  origin. Hey I heard the other day a fella is selling the sun! is there 
  anyone buying? 
  Revisionist can try, but will never succeed.
  There is a saying in the Caribans islands:"you can fool people, but you
  can't fool them all the time."



: -Danny Keren.




--
==============================================================================
  ( No memorial can ever exhibit or impart the holocaust of SIX MILLION Jews)

                   VIGILANS.ET AUDAX.SEMPER PARATUS.
              
==============================================================================



Article 16436 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Vicksell and the BIG LIE of "Holocaust Revisionism" (Was: Re: "Pol
Date: 20 Sep 1994 13:12:51 GMT
Organization: Brown University
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Message-ID: <35mn4j$qi8@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
References: <1994Sep03.050330.2051@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>   
NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu

Still no response from Vicksell, I see. He's still reading
the newsgroup and commenting on various matters; why
doesn't he respond to the very crucial question posed
to him?

WHY does he accept only the testimonies of former Auschwitz inmates
and guards that he likes, while rejecting the rest?

Obviously, this makes him a liar and a fraud, and highly damages
the image of "Holocaust revisionism" (an image which is already
up shit creek). Vicksell cannot say "yes, I believe what this
and that said about the Auschwitz brothel, but I don't believe 
what he said about mass murder in the camp, and I also don't
believe what everyone else said about mass murder in the camp".
This proves that his criterion for evaluating the evidence is not
its quality, but the correlation of that evidence with what he
decided happened in Auschwitz. As noted, Vicksell works in an
opposite way to that of a historian: first he decides what
happened, and then he decided if to accept or reject the evidence,
according to whether it suits his "theory" or not. It should
be the other way around.

Can Vicksell respond to this?


-Danny Keren.



Article 16452 of alt.revisionism:
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From: freedman@software.mitel.com (Gordon Freedman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A revisionist defines
Date: 20 Sep 1994 11:49:24 -0400
Organization: Mitel Corporation
Lines: 16
Message-ID: <35n0a4$d5q@picard.mitel.com>
References: <40.7175.1168@channel1.com>    <56VTk0yNU2x9069yn@world.std.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: picard.mitel.com
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL0]

The only Golux in the World and not a mere Device. (golux@mcs.com) wrote:
: I am not personally familiar with "the facts about Israel" on this point,
: so I would appreciate an answer to these questions.  Again:

: 1.  What are the criteria for being a "second-class citizen"?

: 2.  How do the Arabs in Israel meet these criteria?

3. Who are Arabs?

(There are many Jews in Israel who come from Arab nations)

: Thanks.

Gordon
- My opinion -


Article 16459 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Dinner in Cambridge
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References:  
Date: Tue, 20 Sep 1994 02:25:17 GMT
Lines: 14

charles11@delphi.com wrote:
: Ross Vicksell  writes:
:  
: >I'm reiterating the proposal.  Lets us alt.revisionism fans get together
: >at some easily accessible restaurant in Cambridge or Boston for an evening
: >of food and conversation.  If you're interested, holler. 
:  
: Count me in. I live inSharon and as a victim of the Nazis I am more than
: interested.

So any of you other Boston area alt.revisionism posters and lurkers care 
to join Charles and me some evening for dinner?

                 Ross Vicksell


Article 16481 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!news.cic.net!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!csus.edu!netcom.com!codfish
From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Fred A. Leuchter Jr... You Forget Something?
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References:  <35emth$dq8@newsbf01.news.aol.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Sep 1994 20:35:04 GMT
Lines: 39

CyberKnght (cyberknght@aol.com) wrote:
: In article , codfish@netcom.com (Ross
: Vicksell) writes:

: >>  If you had lost 20 pounds in a month-long incarceration in a German
: >>  prison, would you be eager to go back for more?

: Where do you get these figures from?  From Fred himself?  Fred has lied
: about being an engineer and about servicing execution chambers.  Hardly a

You don't know what you're talking about.  I'm not to sure about gas 
chambers, but I know he's serviced electric chairs, whish I presume 
reside in "execution chambers."

: credible witness.  And what is this "stomach condition" he says he has?  I
: personally have witnessed Fred drinking coffee.  What kind of stomach
: condition can allow someone to drink coffee?  And I saw him after his
: return from Germany, and he was still skinny and still had his little 54
: year old pot belly as always.  He hadn't appeared to have lost any weight,
: and he was still drinking coffee. I've also seen him drinking something I
: assumed was liquer, but I never bothered to check for certain, so I can't
: swear to it.


You failed to mention that he smokes.

: And so what if he lost a couple pounds?  Isn't jail, in the words of Paula
: Poundstone, supposed to be just a little bit bad for you?

: >>Hey, maybe the OSI could track him down.  Since they're running out of
: >>"Nazis" they should be thinking about making the switch to "neo-Nazis."

: That's a good idea!   (Why is the word "Nazi" in quotes?  You believe
: Nazis are like unicorns and mermaids, a myth?)

I just don't think that anyone who ever served as a guard in a German 
concentration camp is ipso facto a Nazi.

: *(*(*(*(* CyberKnight *(*(*(*(*


Article 16482 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!news.cic.net!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!csus.edu!netcom.com!codfish
From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Fred A. Leuchter Jr... You Forget Something?
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References: <35d8me$3vu@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> <35en8p$dr6@newsbf01.news.aol.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Sep 1994 20:40:04 GMT
Lines: 16

CyberKnght (cyberknght@aol.com) wrote:
: In article <35d8me$3vu@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>, dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
: writes:

: >>  As a matter of fact, I agree with Vicksell. There's no use and no
: >>  justification to put Leuchter on trial.

: Perhaps you're right.  There are few idiots more discredited than Fred is
: by now.  This should be the final straw, since he is unwilling to stand up
: for his "beliefs."  One wonders how strongly he believes what he's said
: when he won't stand trial for what he feels is the "truth."  One can now

                     "trial"


             Ross Vicksell


Article 16495 of alt.revisionism:
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From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Fred A. Leuchter Jr... You Forget Something?
Date: Thu, 22 Sep 1994 00:42:31 -0400
Organization: University of Michigan
Lines: 95
Message-ID: 
References: 
   <35emth$dq8@newsbf01.news.aol.com>
   
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm005-02.dialip.mich.net

codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) wrote:

> CyberKnght (cyberknght@aol.com) wrote:
> 
> : Where do you get these figures from?  From Fred himself?  Fred has lied
> : about being an engineer and about servicing execution chambers.  Hardly a
> 
> You don't know what you're talking about.  I'm not to sure about gas 
> chambers, but I know he's serviced electric chairs, whish I presume 
> reside in "execution chambers."

I find myself repeating myself:  you obviously haven't read the Leuchter FAQ.
Section 3.10.



   The following is taken from Leuchter's testimony at the Zundel trial
   (Douglas Christie, Zundel's attorney is the questioner) - following
   the testimony are verbatim quotes from two American prison officials,
   which were obtained after Leuchter's testimony at the trial.  We
   believe you will have no difficulty in determining the value of Mr.
   Leuchter's credentials after considering both:

      Q: And what is your relationship with the operation of those
         facilities [i.e.  gas chambers] in those two States [California
         and North Carolina]?

      A: We consulted with both States, California primarily on a heart
         monitoring system to replace the older type mechanical diagraph
         stethoscope that's presently in use.  We will be shipping to them
         shortly and installing a new heart monitor for both chairs in
         their gas chamber.

      Q: You are consulted by the State, I understand?

      A: Yes, Juan Vasquez.

      Q: I see.  And in North Carolina?

      A: North Carolina.  My discussions and work was with one Nathan
         Reise, and he had some work done by their maintenance personnel on
         their gas chamber two years ago, and they had a problem with the
         gasket on a door leaking.  At which point, we discussed it with
         him and recommended remedial procedures to change the gas chamber.

      Q: And he consults you in regard to those matters?

      A: He does.

   What do those two facilities have to say about the matter?  First,
   the warden at San Quentin (California) responds:

      "I can inform you, however, that San Quentin has not contracted
      with Fred A.  Leuchter, Jr.  for the installation of a heart
      monitoring system or for any other work." Signed: DANIEL B.
      Vasquez, Warden (California)

   Next, we offer the comments from North Carolina prison officials:

      "I discussed your request with Mr.  Nathan A.  RICE, Former
      Warden, and he stated that he vaguely recalled a telephone
      conversation between him and a gentleman professing to be an
      expert on execution chambers.  Mr.  Rice further states that the
      gentleman called him for the purpose of selling a lethal injection
      machine...

      Also, our records do not support that Mr.  Leuchter performed
      either consulting or any service...I can attest that the planning
      and work was performed by the Department of Correction Engineering
      Section and our institution maintenance department." Signed: Gary
      T.  Dixon, Warden (North Carolina)

   We discover, then, that neither California nor North Carolina have
   consulted with Leuchter regarding their gas chambers.  Leuchter was
   incapable of even getting the names of the wardens right, and clearly
   lying about his "professional" relationships with them.



> I just don't think that anyone who ever served as a guard in a German 
> concentration camp is ipso facto a Nazi.

What -- you think they _conscripted_ troops to serve as camp guards?!

It's well-documented that only a select few were able to serve as guards
at the camps.  I believe all of them were SS.  Now, I don't doubt that
many members of the German army would not call themselves Nazis -- but
the SS sure would.  And you think that, if there were an SS who wasn't a
Nazi, he would be selected for the sensitive job of camp guard?

Really, now, Ross.
-- 
 Jamie McCarthy   Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu   AppleLink: j.mccarthy
 "...just consider alt.revisionism a suburb of talk.bizarre
  and everything starts falling into place."  - Steve Miller


Article 16497 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!nic-nac.CSU.net!usc!math.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!csus.edu!netcom.com!codfish
From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: History and Credibility
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References:  <8SEP199415174118@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu>   <34t0qs$7to@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM>
Date: Thu, 22 Sep 1994 05:06:09 GMT
Lines: 30

Daniel Rice (rice@servo.eng.sun.com) wrote:
: In article ,
: Wayne McGuire  wrote:
: >Another example: we often read in the major media that Saddam
: >Hussein threatened to annihilate Israel with weapons of mass
: >destruction. Many Jews have tried to give the impression that
: >Saddam was threatening an OFFENSIVE action. In fact, if you read
: >his remarks in context, Saddam threatened to attack Israel IF
: >Israel attacked Iraq with nuclear weapons: he was clearly
: >referring to a DEFENSIVE action in response to an Israeli nuclear
: >attack.

:   This statement amazes me.  Why should anyone care about Saddam's
: "remarks"?  The man lobbed scuds at Israel, without so much as one
: Israeli soldier, tank, bomb, or jet attacking him.  So perhaps his 

You are being just a wee bit disingenuous.  Israel perceived Iraq as it's
number one foe.  Recall how the Israelis had "taken out" the Iraqi nuclear
reactor a few years earlier.  As far as not participating in the Gulf
turkey shoot, the Israeli's, I'm sure, were perfectly happy having the
U.S. bomb Iraq back into the Stone Age for them. 

: statements before the war were misunderstood.  Did he then say to
: himself "golly, I only meant that I'd defend myself, but now I'm so
: hurt by these willful misinterpretations that I'll go ahead and
: attack the civilian population centers of a nation which isn't even
: participating in the coalition against me"?  If he did, should I
: be sympathetic?

              Ross Vicksell


Article 16506 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!psgrain!sjsumcs.sjsu.edu!wetware!sgiblab!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!csus.edu!netcom.com!codfish
From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Faurisson and the "Anal Complex"
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References: <35jufk$dku@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
Date: Thu, 22 Sep 1994 03:29:32 GMT
Lines: 36

Danny Keren (dzk@cs.brown.edu) wrote:
: This excerpt from a book by Robert Faurisson was posted sometime
: ago by Jamie McCarthy. Faurisson is considered to be the most
: prominent "Holocaust revisionist" around. He is the author of
: numerous articles on "revisionism", and has given many talks
: at IHR "conferences" etc. 

: 

: # We feel that another forceful reason why the Anne Frank diary cannot be
: # entirely dismissed as a fictitious story is its preoccupation with the
: # anus and excrements, a trait typical of many Jews.  Pornography and
: # excretal fantasies have always fascinated many of them and they have
: # therefore also been the greatest exploiters of these things.  ... Jewish
: # writings have been infused with stories about the reproductive and
: # excremental functions.  ... Although we cannot dismiss the argument that
: # these excremental preoccupations are mere fancies on the part of the
: # author or authors there are good reasons to believe the stories are
: # genuine and are in part reflecting some of the foremost intellectual
: # thought of the occupants.  Even if they were invented they nevertheless
: # splendidly depict the anal complex, of an ancient, cultural people.

: 

: Perhaps Bradley Smith, or Ross Vicksell, can contact Faurisson and
: ask him about the excerpt posted above.


: -Danny Keren.

O.K., I'll see whether Faurisson wants to comment.


                  Ross Vicksell




Article 16523 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Holocaust history - Sept. 19
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References:  <35kg7l$agg@agate.berkeley.edu>
Date: Thu, 22 Sep 1994 23:37:20 GMT
Lines: 0



Article 16524 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!nic-nac.CSU.net!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!news.intercon.com!news1.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Fred A. Leuchter Jr... You Forget Something?
Date: 22 Sep 1994 12:05:33 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <35sa0d$siq@access4.digex.net>
References:  <35emth$dq8@newsbf01.news.aol.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net

In article ,
Ross Vicksell  wrote:
>You don't know what you're talking about.  I'm not to sure about gas 
>chambers, but I know he's serviced electric chairs, whish I presume 
>reside in "execution chambers."

    How do you know that Leuchter has in fact serviced electric chairs? 
What physical or documentary evidence do you have? 

    If you are relying solely on Leuchter's word, why is it any more 
reliable than his claims that he consulted with prisons whose wardens 
explicitly denied that Leuchter had done work for them?

>I just don't think that anyone who ever served as a guard in a German 
>concentration camp is ipso facto a Nazi.

    What shall we call them, then?  If we call them "German," you will 
object that it smears all Germans.  Besides, not all of them were 
Germans - many were Ukrainians.  This means that "SS" would not be 
accurate either; I don't think the Ukrainians were made part of the SS.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


Article 16528 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!gatech!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!eff!news.kei.com!ub!csn!csus.edu!netcom.com!codfish
From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Faurisson and the "Anal Complex"
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References: <35jufk$dku@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> 
Date: Fri, 23 Sep 1994 00:44:35 GMT
Lines: 11

I faxed Faurisson the quotation attributed to him.  His reply:

"I never wrote such a thing!  And, supposing we are antisemites, does 
this make only one Nazi gas chamber to exist?  WHY waste so much time 
AROUND the topic? ...

I skimmed thru the booklet "Is the Diary of Ann Frank Genuine", which I
presume is the work the passage in question is supposed to have appeared 
in, and failed to find anything remotely resembling it. 

                   Ross Vicksell


Article 16534 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!kmcvay
From: kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay)
Subject: Re: Fred A. Leuchter Jr... You Forget Something?
References: <35emth$dq8@newsbf01.news.aol.com>  <35sa0d$siq@access4.digex.net>
Organization: The Old Frog's Almanac
Message-ID: <1994Sep24.232451.11959@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
Date: Sat, 24 Sep 94 23:24:51 GMT

In article <35sa0d$siq@access4.digex.net> mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) writes:

>In article ,
>Ross Vicksell  wrote:

>>You don't know what you're talking about.  I'm not to sure about gas 
>>chambers, but I know he's serviced electric chairs, whish I presume 
>>reside in "execution chambers."

>    How do you know that Leuchter has in fact serviced electric chairs? 
>What physical or documentary evidence do you have? 

(You forgot to ask for his single best piece...)

>    If you are relying solely on Leuchter's word, why is it any more 
>reliable than his claims that he consulted with prisons whose wardens 
>explicitly denied that Leuchter had done work for them?

Why would Mr. Vicksell, who repeatedly rejects eyewitness testimony
as invalid, accept Mr. Leuchter's word for anything?

>>I just don't think that anyone who ever served as a guard in a German 
>>concentration camp is ipso facto a Nazi.

>    What shall we call them, then?  If we call them "German," you will 
>object that it smears all Germans.  Besides, not all of them were 
>Germans - many were Ukrainians.  This means that "SS" would not be 
>accurate either; I don't think the Ukrainians were made part of the SS.

According to the Soviet interrogation records of Russian and
Ukrainian Wachmen, they were indeed considered SS men. Given their
forced conscription, it is probably safe to assume they were
apolitical, since they weren't offered much of a choice by the SS
recruiters. Their subsequent record of brutality, however, raises
interesting human issues, and suggests that referring to them as
Nazis is accurate, at least to a degree, although I doubt very much
the description fit politically.
-- 

"However, it is sophistry to proclaim that something must have happened a
certain way because your `reason' demands it." (Greg Raven, Institute for
Historical Review)


Article 16539 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!csus.edu!netcom.com!codfish
From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Faurisson vs. Berenbaum
Message-ID: 
Keywords: Faurisson
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
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Robert Faurisson asked me to post this.  It's about the stormy half-hour 
visit he and I and my taciturn friend from Boston made to Michael 
Berenbaum and a couple of his colleagues in his office in the Holocaust 
Memorial Museum in Washington.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Could you, please, insist on the fact that Michael Berenbaum on August 
30, 1994, when asked WHY there was no physical representation of the Nazi 
gas chamber in his museum replies : "The decision has been taken [by the 
authorities of the HMM] NOT to give any physical representation of the 
Nazi gas chamber" and refused to explain WHY?

This  was a red-letter-day for revisionism!  It is like a priest or a 
cardinal or a pope (M.B. is a theologian) deciding not to put any cross 
in any church.

The reason "WHY"  is that such a gas chamber never existed nor could 
have existed for physical, chemical and topographical reason.

Notice that M.B. did not try to defend his stupid ARTISTIC, but not 
scientific, model of Krema II.  In fact there is NO hole in the roof and 
the pillars are NOT perforated!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

                    Ross Vicksell


Article 16548 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Faurisson and the "Anal Complex"
Date: 23 Sep 1994 18:12:28 GMT
Organization: Brown University
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Ok, so Jamie made a mistake - he confused two leading 
"Holocaust revisionists". He apologized for it. I could
not verify the text for myself because, as I noted,
Brown U. doesn't have the book.

We all make mistakes here and there - Jamie certainly
didn't do this on purpose.

However, the main point remains:

A "leading Holocaust revisionists" (Felderer) is a
filthy racist swine. Only a sick, depraved, racist scum
would write something like what he wrote about the "anal 
complex of the Jews".

Perhaps Bradley Smith would comment on this?


-Danny Keren.



Article 16549 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Faurisson and the "Anal Complex"
Date: 23 Sep 1994 18:24:19 GMT
Organization: Brown University
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As noted already, there was a confusion between Faurisson and another
"revisionist scholar", Felderer.


-Danny Keren.



Article 16554 of alt.revisionism:
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From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Faurisson vs. Berenbaum
Date: Fri, 23 Sep 1994 10:33:27 -0400
Organization: University of Michigan
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codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) wrote:

> Robert Faurisson asked me to post this.
>
> Could you, please, insist on the fact that Michael Berenbaum on August 
> 30, 1994, when asked WHY there was no physical representation of the Nazi 
> gas chamber in his museum replies : "The decision has been taken [by the 
> authorities of the HMM] NOT to give any physical representation of the 
> Nazi gas chamber" and refused to explain WHY?

The U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum doing anything for Holocaust-deniers'
sake would be like the Air & Space Museum putting up an exhibit to prove
that the Earth is not flat.

> This  was a red-letter-day for revisionism!  It is like a priest or a 
> cardinal or a pope (M.B. is a theologian) deciding not to put any cross 
> in any church.

Monsieur Faurisson has come up with an astonishingly bad analogy.

I might suggest a better one:  it's like the pope refusing to explain
to the president of the Athiests' Society why he believes in God.

It's still a lousy analogy (in that it compares Berenbaum to the pope,
and compares the reality of the Holocaust to matters of faith), but I
wasn't given much to work with.

> The reason "WHY"  is that such a gas chamber never existed nor could 
> have existed for physical, chemical and topographical reason.

Faurisson is lecturing us on chemistry?  Is this the same Faurisson
who demonstrated to Michael Stein his lack of understanding of the
formation of ferrocyanic compounds, and then refused to speak any
further when Mr. Stein pointed out that lack?

> Notice that M.B. did not try to defend his stupid ARTISTIC, but not 
> scientific, model of Krema II.  In fact there is NO hole in the roof and 
> the pillars are NOT perforated!

Wow!  And you know what -- the Stealth bomber that they have on exhibit
at the Air & Space museum -- it can't actually fly!  Thus, I have
concluded that no Stealth bombers exist.
-- 
 Jamie McCarthy   Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu   AppleLink: j.mccarthy
 "...just consider alt.revisionism a suburb of talk.bizarre
  and everything starts falling into place."  - Steve Miller


Article 16560 of alt.revisionism:
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From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Faurisson and the "Anal Complex"
Date: Fri, 23 Sep 1994 10:54:19 -0400
Organization: University of Michigan
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codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) wrote:

> I faxed Faurisson the quotation attributed to him.  His reply:
> 
> "I never wrote such a thing!  And, supposing we are antisemites, does 
> this make only one Nazi gas chamber to exist?  WHY waste so much time 
> AROUND the topic? ...
> 
> I skimmed thru the booklet "Is the Diary of Ann Frank Genuine", which I
> presume is the work the passage in question is supposed to have appeared 
> in, and failed to find anything remotely resembling it. 

That's cause Faurisson didn't write it.  It's my fault, I copied the
attribution down wrong.  See the thread in which Mr. Smith points this
out to me, and in which I profusely apologize and offer an explanation
of my stupidity.

The real author was Felderer, in _Diary of Anne Frank: A Hoax_.


If Faurisson or any other Holocaust-denier wishes to stop "wasting so
much time AROUND the topic," he is welcome to dive in directly, and
begin dealing with facts instead of innuendo and lurid questions.  I
suggest one of two routes:

(1)  Join Mr. Raven in his attempts to discredit Document #1 that was
presented to him on May 4th:  Himmler's Poznan speeches.  Mr. Raven
seems to think that the whole Holocaust can hinge on this one piece
of evidence.  He's wrong about that, of course, but we're discussing
it anyway.

(2)  Accept my challenge to pick the topic.  Name any topic that you
feel best proves that the Holocaust did not happen.

I'm not restricting the number of _pieces of evidence_ that you can
present, I'm only saying it's easier to discuss one narrow topic than
several broad ones.  I'm also not saying you have to disprove the
_entire_ Holocaust all at once, only that you should offer forth your
best attack, which does the most damage possible.

Example topics might be:  chemical analysis of the Auschwitz gas
chambers proves that gassings did not take place;  chemical analysis
of diesel exhaust proves that Reinhard gassings did not take place;
examination of train schedules shows that Jews were not really being
taken to Treblinka;  etc.  Come up with your own.

And, once you've chosen the topic, the only rule would be that you
can't change the subject until we agree that discussion on that topic
is over.
-- 
 Jamie McCarthy   Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu   AppleLink: j.mccarthy
 "...just consider alt.revisionism a suburb of talk.bizarre
  and everything starts falling into place."  - Steve Miller


Article 16566 of alt.revisionism:
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Polish Historical Society: Nazi front?
Message-ID: 
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References: <1994Sep05.223540.16957@oneb.almanac.bc.ca> <3437cj$m6i@agate.berkeley.edu> <1994Sep03.045235.1875@oneb.almanac.bc.ca> 
Date: Sat, 24 Sep 1994 04:13:11 GMT
Lines: 7

When we were visiting Berenbaum, I noticed he had a copy of book called
"The Armenian File", which gived the Turkish side of things. on his shelf. 
Didn't get a chance to ask him what he thought of it, tho.  Faurisson and
Berenbaum were doing all the talking; the other four of us just looked on. 

                          Ross Vicksell



Article 16570 of alt.revisionism:
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: My "double standard"
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
Date: Sat, 24 Sep 1994 17:08:08 GMT
Lines: 17

Danny Keren and other Holocaust affirmers like to accuse me, and other
revisionists, of observing a double standard in evaluating testimony, from
people who were there during the war,. about what went on in the camps; we
discount survivor testimony while accepting at face value what people on
our side say. 

Let me merely remark that are and were powerful incentives for people 
who were in the camps to embrace the standard version of what happened 
there, e.g. they were wined and dined in Nuerenberg and in Israel.  On 
the other hand there were powerful disincentives to go against the 
conventional story, witness what happened to Paul Rassinier, Wilhelm 
Staeglich, and Thies Christophersen.

The bottom line, however, is that physical evidence is much more 
trustworthy than human testimony.

              Ross Vicksell               


Article 16584 of alt.revisionism:
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From: landpost@clark.net
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Faurisson and the "Anal Complex"
Date: 25 Sep 1994 00:16:38 GMT
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In article <35v5qc$nu7@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>, dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) wrote:



>...........a
> filthy racist swine. Only a sick, depraved, racist scum.......
>


-------------------------------

Keren, are you looking in the mirror again??


Tim McCarthy
landpost@clark.net


Article 16592 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: My "double standard"
Date: 24 Sep 1994 21:09:15 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 84
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NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net

In article ,
Ross Vicksell  wrote:
>Danny Keren and other Holocaust affirmers like to accuse me, and other
>revisionists, of observing a double standard in evaluating testimony, from
>people who were there during the war,. about what went on in the camps; we
>discount survivor testimony while accepting at face value what people on
>our side say. 
>
>Let me merely remark that are and were powerful incentives for people 
>who were in the camps to embrace the standard version of what happened 
>there, e.g. they were wined and dined in Nuerenberg and in Israel.

    Of course, fascists and anti-semites have NO reason to call the Jews 
liars; their motives are COMPLETELY selfless and pure....

    Rudolf Hoess may have been wined and dined in Nuremberg, but never in 
Israel.  (I understand it is customary to give a good last meal to those 
who are to be executed.)  Although Hoess's initial statement upon capture 
was given after a beating, he reaffirmed his guilt in his autobiography 
after his conviction (and mentioned the beating in it, which makes it 
hard to argue that the autobiography was coerced).

    Franz Suchomel was fed for several years - in prison.  After his
release, he voluntarily appeared on camera in "Shoah" and acknowledged his
guilt.  Who paid him off to confess - in public! - to a crime you claim he
didn't commit, after he had already served his time?  (And where's your 
proof of this payoff?)

    Kurt Gerstein told friends and a Swedish diplomat *during the war* 
that Jews were being exterminated.  Who wined and dined him then?

    German industrialist Eduard Schulte learned that Auschwitz would be 
used to exterminate Jews and risked his life to bring this news to the 
American legation in Switzerland.

    Jankiel Wiernik escaped from Treblinka and brought the story out long 
before Nuremberg.

    The Polish Underground observed the Reinhard camps - Jews check in,
but they don't check out, just their clothing - and while they didn't
understand the truth behind the smoke they saw (they were looking on from
a distance, and misinterpreted it as steam rather than engine exhaust)
they knew that Jews were being killed.  Again, this is before Nuremberg.

    So how do you explain these testimonies which don't seem to fit your 
"wined and dined in Nuremberg and Israel" theory?


>The bottom line, however, is that physical evidence is much more 
>trustworthy than human testimony.

    Like the bones and ashes at the Reinhard camps?

    Like the huge number of cremation furnaces at Auschwitz-Birkenau?

    Like the photographs of open pit burning of corpses at 
    Auschwitz-Birkenau?

    Like the cyanide traces even Leuchter found in Krema I?

    Like the gas-tight door at Auschwitz-Birkenau with a metal grille 
    protecting the peephole?  (Protecting it from what?)

    How about documentary evidence from during the war?

    Like the letter from Bischoff to Kammler talking about a 
    "Vergasungskeller?"

    The construction plans and inventory sheets from the Kremas, showing a 
    room with a gas-tight door and showers - but no plumbing going to the
    showers (in other words, dummy showers, just like the witnesses said, 
    Ross)?

    The office diaries of Hans Frank, referring to the loss of Jewish
    workers due to an order to liquidate the Jews?

    The Einsatzgruppen reports, showing the execution of hundreds of
    thousands of Jews?  (This is not evidence of any plan or policy to
    kill Jews, claims Greg Raven.  Yeah, sure, and the high death rate of
    smokers is not evidence of any health risk of smoking.)
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


Article 16598 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dspiegel@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu (Dan Spiegel)
Subject: Re: My "double standard"
Message-ID: 
Organization: Ohio University CS Dept,. Athens
References: 
Date: Sun, 25 Sep 1994 04:54:34 GMT
Lines: 44

In article ,
Ross Vicksell  wrote:
>Danny Keren and other Holocaust affirmers like to accuse me, and other
>revisionists, of observing a double standard in evaluating testimony, from
 ||||||||||||
 Revisionists
>people who were there during the war,. about what went on in the camps; we
>discount survivor testimony while accepting at face value what people on
>our side say. 

   This is true.

>Let me merely remark that are and were powerful incentives for people 
>who were in the camps to embrace the standard version of what happened 
>there, e.g. they were wined and dined in Nuerenberg and in Israel.  

   Name some survivors who were wined and dined in Nuerenberg. I'm also
curious what Israel did to influence the manner in which the survivors
recalled their experiences. I'm sure you can document this ;-|.

>								     On 
>the other hand there were powerful disincentives to go against the 
>conventional story, witness what happened to Paul Rassinier, Wilhelm 
>Staeglich, and Thies Christophersen.

   I've never heard of these three. What happened to them, where, and why? 
(Documented, please)
 
>The bottom line, however, is that physical evidence is much more 
>trustworthy than human testimony.

   What is the physical evidence of the brothel? How is it more convincing
than the physical evidence of the gassing operation?

   Answer the question. Why do you believe the brothel, but not the 
gassing operation?

>
>              Ross Vicksell               

-DS
I speak for myself only.
No unsolicited e-mail, please. I'll read your flames with everyone else.
Please do not use my name in any subject headers.


Article 16600 of alt.revisionism:
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From: hoffman2nd@delphi.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Faurisson vs. Berenbaum
Date: Sun, 25 Sep 94 10:34:01 -0500
Organization: Delphi (info@delphi.com email, 800-695-4005 voice)
Lines: 27
Message-ID: 
References:  
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X-To: Jamie McCarthy 

From: Michael A. Hoffman II.
Jamie McCarthy suggests that Berenbaum's credibility as director of the
U.-ocaust Memorial Museum (HMM) is intact even though Berenbaum informed Dr.
Faurisson that the HMM refuses to exhibit a physical representation of a
homicidal
gas chamber. McCarthy states in defense of Berenbaum:
"The U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum doing anything for Holocaust-
deniers' sake would be like the Air and Space Museum putting up an exhibit
to prove that the earth is not flat."
   Au contraire, Mr. McCarthy. For the national museum devoted to the
mass murder by poison gas of millions of people not to have a replica
of an alleged "Nazi homicidal gas chamber," is tantamount to the Space
Museum not having any rockets on display.
   Professor Faurisson is correct when he places the U.S. Holocaust Memorial
Museum in the realm of theology. It is a cathedral of a state religion, not a
museum of science or history. Why has the museum omitted physically representing
a homicidal gas chamber? Because such an exhibit would be subject to
scientific and technical scrutiny and like the Shroud of Turin, it would
fail the tests. Therefore, Dr. Faurisson's analogy was precise and accurate.
The taxpayer-financed "Holocaust" museum is in fact unConstitutional. It is
inviolation of the establishment clause of the First Amendment. It
represents the first establishment of a religion in the 218 year history of our
Republic.
                                           -Michael A. Hoffman II
Editor, Revisionist Researcher Newsletter. 6 issue sub:U.S.$30. Special
"Swindler's Mist" issue devoted to the errors in Schindler's List: U.S.$6.
Fro Wiswell Ruffin House, PO Box 236, Dresden, New York 14441


Article 16602 of alt.revisionism:
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From: cyberknght@aol.com (CyberKnght)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Fred A. Leuchter Jr... You Forget Something?
Date: 25 Sep 1994 09:28:05 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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In article , codfish@netcom.com (Ross
Vicksell) writes:

At Fred's last trial in Cambridge, he wasn't able to confirm ANY of his
reference whom he said he'd done work for on ANY kind of device.

According to an article I read, Fred's only "work" in execution devices
may have been to testify in court against penal systems that refused to
hire him to service their devices.

And oh yes, he smokes... a LOT.

forgive me for not message-quoting, but this stupid software from America
Online crashes when I try to cut/paste between messages.

*(*(* CyberKnight *(*(*


Article 16613 of alt.revisionism:
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From: ai292@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Gordon McFee)
Subject: Re: Fred A. Leuchter Jr... You Forget Something?
Message-ID: 
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Date: Sun, 25 Sep 1994 16:08:07 GMT
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In a previous article, cyberknght@aol.com (CyberKnght) says:

>In article , codfish@netcom.com (Ross
>Vicksell) writes:
>
>At Fred's last trial in Cambridge, he wasn't able to confirm ANY of his
>reference whom he said he'd done work for on ANY kind of device.

Hardly surprising.

>
>According to an article I read, Fred's only "work" in execution devices
>may have been to testify in court against penal systems that refused to
>hire him to service their devices.
>
>And oh yes, he smokes... a LOT.

Ah, I'll hate myself for this, but *what* foes he smoke?

--
Gordon McFee ai292

I'll write no line before its time!


Article 16635 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: More museum hoaxes!
Date: 25 Sep 1994 19:28:59 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
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References:   
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net

In article ,   wrote:
>Why has the museum omitted physically representing
>a homicidal gas chamber? Because such an exhibit would be subject to
>scientific and technical scrutiny and like the Shroud of Turin, it would
>fail the tests.

    I would like to know what tests one would devise for such a model?  
That it be able to function and kill people?  Is Mr. Hoffman volunteering 
for such an experiment?

    The real problem is that since the Auschwitz gas chambers were not
captured intact (and I have yet to see any credible explanation from
revisionists as to why Kremas II-V were dynamited if they were as innocent
as they claim), and were not photographed by their builders, it is
impossible to reproduce precisely what they looked like, other than the
rough outlines available from the construction drawings.  One could 
certainly come up with a plausible reconstruction from the drawings, but 
it would still be a recreation, not accurate in every detail.

    However, I don't know why the Holocaust Museum finds this a problem. 
This messy detail does not stop other museums from exhibiting patently
fraudulent reconstructions without any sort of warning that they are
merely speculative. 

    I'm not talking about gas chambers - I'm talking about dinosaurs.  All
we have are bones; nobody has ever really seen a dinosaur "in the flesh"
and the lifelike recreations in museums are only informed speculation. 
Many supposed "dinosaurs" are not even based on complete skeletons!  Yet
that doesn't stop the paleohoaxers.  Why aren't the revisionists engaged
in a crusade to expose the dinosaur myth?

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


Article 16640 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Faurisson vs. Berenbaum
In-Reply-To: hoffman2nd@delphi.com's message of Sun, 25 Sep 94 10:34:01 -0500
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Zorya)
Organization: The World
References: 
	
	
Date: Mon, 26 Sep 1994 01:06:08 GMT
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From: hoffman2nd@delphi.com
>The taxpayer-financed "Holocaust" museum is in fact unConstitutional. It is
>inviolation of the establishment clause of the First Amendment. It
>represents the first establishment of a religion in the 218 year history of our
>Republic.

Unlike the National Cathedral which has now cost the taxpayers a few
billion dollars and I believe still isn't completed after 20 years of
construction (I know, now some will say they're against that also, but
funny they don't make much noise unless goaded.)

At least the Holocaust Museum certainly has as a theme a mere
recounting and education in history. It's hardly a religious edifice
except in that strange double-speak of fanatics where similes and
metaphors are suddenly confused with the actual thing to feign outrage
(as above.)

At least we can note that a Jew or a Muslim or an Atheist would have
no use for a National Cathedral while we have to at least admit that
every single person in the US would feel perfectly served by visiting
the Holocaust museum whether they agree with all its displays or not.

This is more akin to a creationist claiming that a dinosaur display at
a natural history museum is tax-sponsored religion (or anti-religion,
but they often claim that "secular humanism", ie common understanding
of things like creation, is a religion and thus a tax-sponsored
display of a dinosaur would be a violation of the first amendment,
blah blah blah.)

That you happen to be sensitive to the fact that a lot of this history
affected the Jews does not make it a religious issue (it affected
others also, Gypsies etc for one, and the few million American men and
women who fought in WWII for another) any more than a historical
display about Native Americans at some other museum would, by your
reasoning, be there as a benefit to Native Americans. It's there to
educate people.

That there's a fringe of about 1/10 of 1% who will believe that the
earth is flat or that UFOs abduct and impregnate women or that the
Holocaust never occurred does not change that.

Convince someone of your (peculiar) views and you'll make progress.

Failing that, which is likely given the truth of the matter, and
you'll continue to be another frustrated, whack-o loudmouth whose best
prospects are to be yet another freak paraded onto the Geraldo show.

But I'll be goddamned if you're going to get away with couching your
utterly repugnant and bizarre views in phrasings of JUSTICE. To hell
with you, the furthest thing from your mind is justice or
fairness. You don't fool anyone for a moment.

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 16643 of alt.revisionism:
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Fred A. Leuchter Jr... You Forget Something?
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
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Date: Mon, 26 Sep 1994 01:40:12 GMT
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Jamie McCarthy (k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu) wrote:
: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) wrote:

: > I just don't think that anyone who ever served as a guard in a German 
: > concentration camp is ipso facto a Nazi.

: What -- you think they _conscripted_ troops to serve as camp guards?!

Well, toward the end of the war they conscripted people into the SS, 
according to Fritz Berg.

: It's well-documented that only a select few were able to serve as guards
: at the camps.  I believe all of them were SS.  Now, I don't doubt that
: many members of the German army would not call themselves Nazis -- but
: the SS sure would.  And you think that, if there were an SS who wasn't a

Some were and some weren't.

: Nazi, he would be selected for the sensitive job of camp guard?

sensitive schmensitive.  So they took some kind of oath of secrecy.  So 
what.  So did U.S. Army MPs.  A lot of camp guards were just guys who 
couldn't serve at the front, for various reasons. 

: Really, now, Ross. : -- 

:  Jamie McCarthy   Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu   AppleLink: j.mccarthy
:  "...just consider alt.revisionism a suburb of talk.bizarre
:   and everything starts falling into place."  - Steve Miller


Article 16659 of alt.revisionism:
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From: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire)
Subject: Re: Faurisson vs. Berenbaum
Message-ID: 
Sender: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire)
Organization: The World @ Software Tool & Die
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Date: Mon, 26 Sep 1994 10:11:11 GMT
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In article ,
k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:
//codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) wrote:
//
//> Robert Faurisson asked me to post this.
//>
//> Could you, please, insist on the fact that Michael Berenbaum on August
//> 30, 1994, when asked WHY there was no physical representation of the Nazi
//> gas chamber in his museum replies : "The decision has been taken [by the
//> authorities of the HMM] NOT to give any physical representation of the
//> Nazi gas chamber" and refused to explain WHY?
//
//The U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum doing anything for Holocaust-deniers'
//sake would be like the Air & Space Museum putting up an exhibit to prove
//that the Earth is not flat.

I don't understand this, Jamie. WHY did the authorities of the
HMM not give any physical representation of a gas chamber? It
seems like a fair question.

The gas chamber is the central symbol of the Holocaust. Why not
depict it at the Holocaust Museum? Surely it would be in their
own interest to do so.

NOT depicting the gas chamber gives the revisionists an opening
through which to drive a Mack truck, no? Why give them such a
juicy opening?


Article 16662 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Faurisson vs. Berenbaum
Date: 26 Sep 1994 11:11:06 GMT
Organization: Brown University
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Wayne McGuire  wrote:

# I don't understand this, Jamie. WHY did the authorities of the
# HMM not give any physical representation of a gas chamber? It
# seems like a fair question.

Wayne, do you think it would be appropriate to dismantle the
Auschwitz gas chamber in Krema I and transport it to the US?

Frankly, I don't think so. It should stay where it was, IMHO.


-Danny Keren.



Article 16669 of alt.revisionism:
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From: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire)
Subject: Re: Faurisson vs. Berenbaum
Message-ID: 
Sender: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire)
Organization: The World @ Software Tool & Die
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Date: Mon, 26 Sep 1994 14:17:10 GMT
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In article <366a8a$lc2@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>, dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) wrote:
//Wayne McGuire  wrote:
//
//# I don't understand this, Jamie. WHY did the authorities of the
//# HMM not give any physical representation of a gas chamber? It
//# seems like a fair question.
//
//Wayne, do you think it would be appropriate to dismantle the
//Auschwitz gas chamber in Krema I and transport it to the US?
//
//Frankly, I don't think so. It should stay where it was, IMHO.

The word above is REPRESENTATION. Why does the HMM seem so
reluctant to portray prominently the central symbol of the entire
Holocaust? It makes it seem to a casual observer that they are
backing away from or trying to deemphasize the gas chamber angle
on the Holocaust story.


Article 16670 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Faurisson vs. Berenbaum
Date: 26 Sep 1994 13:46:39 GMT
Organization: Brown University
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Wayne McGuire  wrote:
# dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) wrote:

## Wayne, do you think it would be appropriate to dismantle the
## Auschwitz gas chamber in Krema I and transport it to the US?
##
## Frankly, I don't think so. It should stay where it was, IMHO.

# The word above is REPRESENTATION. Why does the HMM seem so
# reluctant to portray prominently the central symbol of the entire
# Holocaust? It makes it seem to a casual observer that they are
# backing away from or trying to deemphasize the gas chamber angle
# on the Holocaust story.

I see - I've never been to the museum, which explains why I seem
to have misunderstood this point.

So, I take it that the museum doesn't have a model of a gas
chamber? I thought it does. Are photographs of the crematoriums,
construction documents etc on display? I don't see any reason
not to include these. But that's only my opinion.


-Danny Keren.



Article 16683 of alt.revisionism:
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From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Faurisson vs. Berenbaum
Date: Mon, 26 Sep 1994 13:27:22 -0400
Organization: University of Michigan
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wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire) wrote:

> The word above is REPRESENTATION. Why does the HMM seem so
> reluctant to portray prominently the central symbol of the entire
> Holocaust? It makes it seem to a casual observer that they are
> backing away from or trying to deemphasize the gas chamber angle
> on the Holocaust story.

Wayne, let's look at what you're doing here.

I believe it was Faurisson who brought this up, through Ross
Vicksell.  Faurisson is a Holocaust-denier.  Now you know and
I know that, therefore, he's either extremely gullible or he's
a nutcase, and I assure you he's not the former.  We both know
that he has an agenda, and an extremely biased one.

Now Faurisson comes forward and gives you one fact about the
Museum, just one:  that they don't have a representation of the
gas chambers.  We're not even sure if that's true or not.

Why do you think he'd hand that one fact to you on a silver
platter?

Do you suppose there might be a reason why?

You got suckered by Bradley Smith on Eisenhower's memoirs the
other day.  Smith mentioned that Ike had never written about the
gas chambers, and you got all concerned, gosh, maybe he has a
point.  When it was pointed out to you that Ike had written
about the death camp he first encountered (which probably didn't
have a gas chamber), and that Ike was terribly disturbed by Nazi
atrocities, you quieted up.  Presumably you realized that you
had been given one fact out of context -- one fact deliberately
chosen to make you question the reality of the Holocaust.

Now Faurisson has done the same thing again -- given you one
fact out of context.  And you're doing the same thing again --
getting worked up about it.

Hey, I'm not saying we shouldn't go ahead and figure out what
the deal is here.  It's worth figuring out.

(My current hypothesis is that there probably was a reason not
to include a model of a gas chamber, but that Berenbaum didn't
want to discuss it with Faurisson.  I'd be surprised if
Berenbaum gave the time of day to Faurisson.  And that's all
that Faurisson said, right?, that Berenbaum simply refused to
tell _him_ a reason.)

So what I am saying:  fool me once, shame on you;  fool me twice,
shame on me.
-- 
 Jamie McCarthy   Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu   AppleLink: j.mccarthy
 "...just consider alt.revisionism a suburb of talk.bizarre
  and everything starts falling into place."  - Steve Miller


Article 16699 of alt.revisionism:
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From: hoffman2nd@delphi.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: More museum hoaxes!
Date: Mon, 26 Sep 94 19:03:16 -0500
Organization: Delphi (info@delphi.com email, 800-695-4005 voice)
Lines: 16
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References:    <36513r$r0b@access4.digex.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bos1b.delphi.com
X-To: Michael P. Stein 

From Michael A. Hoffman II
Michael P. Stein states, "The real problem is that since the Auschwitz
gas chambers were not captured intact...and were not photographed by
their builders, it is impossible to reproduce precisely what they
looked like, other than the rough outlines available from the
construction drawings."
 
In the late 1820s, the angel Moroni appeared to Joseph Smith on Hill Cumorah
outside Palmyra, New York and gave him a series of golden plates upon which were
inscribed the records of the tome which came to be known as the Book of Mormon.
Sundry "deniers" alleged that Smith fabricated the book from his own imagination
and that the angel Moroni and the golden plates never existed. The real problem
is that since the golden plates were not captured intact, it is impossible to
reproduce precisely what they looked like, other than the rough outlines fro
drawings. --Michael A. Hoffman II.Editor. Revisionist Researcher. Sample copy:
U.S.$6 from Wiswell Ruffin House, PO Box 236, Dresden, N.Y. l444l.


Article 16713 of alt.revisionism:
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From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Faurisson vs. Berenbaum
Date: Wed, 28 Sep 1994 10:24:58 -0400
Organization: University of Michigan
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Ross, you are the regional director for an organization called the
Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust.

Will you debate any topic of substance about the Holocaust, with me
or anyone else?

I'm not interested in innuendo or speaking in riddles.  Whether or
not a museum built in the 1990s has a model of a gas chamber, has
absolutely no bearing on what happened in Europe in the 1940s.
You insinuate that it does.  But I'm not interested in insinuation.

I want a discussion of the facts and the evidence that relate to
a topic of substance.  Will you engage me in such a discussion?

Because if you have a case, you'd best make it.

And if not, you'd best keep doing what you're doing:  speaking
obliquely and hinting around, and hoping that people will buy it.
That'd be your only alternative, after all.
-- 
 Jamie McCarthy   Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu   AppleLink: j.mccarthy
 "...just consider alt.revisionism a suburb of talk.bizarre
  and everything starts falling into place."  - Steve Miller


Article 16716 of alt.revisionism:
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From: hoffman2nd@delphi.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Faurisson vs. Berenbaum
Date: Wed, 28 Sep 94 14:34:17 -0500
Organization: Delphi (info@delphi.com email, 800-695-4005 voice)
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X-To: Kari Nenonen 

From:Michael A. Hoffman II
 
Lets scrutinize the psychology of Shoah business belief. A classic case is the
response of Kari Nenonen in Helsinki. For Nenonen, proof of the Nazi homicidal
gas chambers is one >>murdered human being<< and >>...many little villages where
Jewish culture prevailed...before the Nazis came.<< Here is the mentality
created by >>Holocaust<< Newspeak in action. Before Elie Wiesel canonized the
term, specific reference was made to separate charges: six million dead,
massacres by military units, deaths by gassings etc. After the >>Holocaust<<
neologism was imposed, the equation became evanescent: a labyrinth prosecution
case which shifted from bars of soap to nights of broken glass, deportations,
shower heads, shootings and diesel engines. If a skeptic doubts one, he is
accused of doubting them all, a convenient device for caricaturing precise
questions as the denial of an ontological enormity: denial of history, denial of
>>The Holocaust.<< Hence if we perhaps happen to look too closely at the claim
of homicidal gas chambers in Auschwitz, someone such as Nenonen summons the
spectre of empty Jewish villages. If we ask for a representation of the
miraculous weapon of mass death, the reply is, >>one dead body is enough.<<
  When Dr. Faurisson elicits from the director of the U.S. Holocaust Museum the
remarkable fact that the weapon of the genocide is not represented nor will it
be represented, the reaction of the true believer is not to demand of Berenbaum
to know why the museum is afraid to represent the homicidal gas chambers, which
were supposedly >>witnessed by several hundreds of thousands of people,<< but to
furnish ailibis for its absence. Those who point up the absurdity of a museum
devoted to genocide by means of poison gas chambers that does not make any
attempt at reconstructing a technically and historically accurate model or
replica are dismissed as heretics or, in the Newspeak term imposed by thought
cop Deborah Lipstadt, >>Holocaust deniers.<<  That phrase of Lipstadts is
redolent of theology and thats the realm to which this subject must be
confined, lest the right to question and doubt is claimed by more people. With
the aid of Tinsel Town-hate-the-Germans cinema (see thread: >>Schindler
Fraud<<), reason has been put to sleep in this matter. The U.S. Holocaust Museum
authorities dare not represent a Nazi homicidal gas chamber because by such
representation the miraculous becomes prosaic and the hoax of homicidal gas
chambers at Auschwitz (note bene I did not say >>Holocaust hoax<<), descends to
earth, for all to compare against the scriptures of the >>Survivors<< (saints)
who have described the miraculous weapon (i.e. rumors from alleged percipients).
By this process, religious dogma is undone; hence the refusal--quite correct
from the point of view of theology--to replicate a Nazi homicidal gas chamber at
the Holocaust Museum in Washington, D.C.---Michael A. Hoffman II. Editor,
Revisionist Researcher. Six issue subscription U.S.$30 from Wiswell Ruffin
House, P.O. Box 236, Dresden, N.Y. 14441 U.S.A.


Article 16724 of alt.revisionism:
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From: golux@mcs.com (The only Golux in the World, and not a mere Device)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Faurisson vs. Berenbaum
Date: Thu, 29 Sep 1994 21:29:06 -0600
Organization: MCSNet Services
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In article , wmcguire@world.std.com
(Wayne McGuire) wrote:

> In article ,
> golux@mcs.com (The only Golux in the World, and not a mere Device) wrote:
> 
> //1.  It is not a "remarkable fact" that there is no reconstruction of a gas
> //chamber at the Holocaust Museum.  It is merely a fact.
> 
> It strikes me as odd that gas chambers are not prominently
> featured at the HMM (if this is indeed the case--I haven't seen
> the HMM with my own eyes).
> 
> I've already explained why: [...]

And I have already explained that the gas chamber is merely one aspect, an
important aspect to be sure, but not the only significant facet of the
totality, the entire horror.  It does represent the extent to which the
Nazis were interested in using "scientific" methods to carry out their
program of extermination, which I find rather more chilling than merely
lining everybody up and shooting them.

> To find gas chambers barely mentioned at the HMM (is this really
> the case?) will definitely create some cognitive dissonance for
> anyone steeped in the Hollywood version of the Holocaust created
> during the fifties, sixties, seventies, and eighties.

In fact, there is a small-scale model of an Auschwitz (I think) gas
chamber and crematorium.  It is done in white (or off-white) plaster or
plastic, I'm not sure which.  It depicts the environs around a gas
chamber, and takes up something like 5x8 feet.  One walks around it and
sees, at one point, a line of people waiting to descend into the anteroom
of the gas chamber.  There is no representation of people dying in the gas
chamber, so eager Nazis will have to use their imaginations.  When you
walk around the model, there is a corner behind the building in which
guards are shooting a prisoner.  There are small plaques describing the
sequence of murder.

There are also a huge number of photgraphs, descriptions, and the like
relating to the gas chambers.

What there is not, however, is a full-scale mockup of a gas chamber for
deniers to walk through, or for them to point out as only a "replica" and
hence "not proof."  (There is a full-size railcar, however, through which
one walks to get from one area in the exhibit to the next area.  I believe
it is an actual railcar that was used to transport prisoners to one of the
camps, but I may be wrong about that.)

> Is the HMM itself making something of a quiet revisionist
> statement about the role of the gas chambers in the Holocaust?

No.

> Is it possible that the role of the gas chamber was slightly
> exaggerated in the Hollywood version of the Holocaust? (This is
> an actual, not a rhetorical, question. I don't know.)

How can this question be answered?  To you, the Holocaust equals gas
chambers.  To me, it does not.  Hence, the "role of the gas chamber" is a
matter of perception and interpretation.  Hollywood's approach to the gas
chambers may in fact be rather simplistic, but that's undoubtedly because
Hollywood creates wealth by turning everything into a sound or video
bite.  On the other hand, I don't think anybody seriously claims that
Hollywood productions represent history accurately.

> //2.  You speak of gas chambers as "the weapon of genocide," as if there
> //were only one such weapon.  If the Nazi attempt to exterminate the Jews
> //and others must be reduced to a single "weapon," then I nominate to that
> //dubious position the sheer hatred and contempt with which the Nazis
> //regarded anybody who was not one of them.
> 
> And would this apply any less to the Marxists who murdered over
> 100 million innocent civilians in this century?
> Marxists--especially the dictatorship of the Marxist
> intelligentsia--felt hatred and contempt for anybody who was not
> one of them. And this attitude was eminently evident in the
> founder of Marxism himself--Karl Marx. He was a truly nasty
> specimen.

I'm not familiar enough with Marx's personality or his writings to know if
he was "truly nasty" or not.  Why don't you post some of his hate-filled
diatribes, or pointers to them, so I can judge for myself?  I'm also not
sure that the Marxist mass murderers were so much filled with hatred and
contempt as paranoid fear of any potential challengers.

> Does your moral outrage over Marxist crimes match that of your
> (justifiable) moral outrage over the Nazi murder of 5 to 6
> million Jews?

Well, gee, thanks for validating my moral outrage at the Nazis and their
mass murder.  Does my moral outrage over Marxist crimes match it?  In some
ways yes, in some ways no.  I am morally outraged (and incredibly
saddened) at the idea of any mass murder, regardless of who is the
perpetrator.  However, I lost family members -- men and women I never
knew, but family nonetheless -- to the Nazi extermination program.  (I'm
pretty sure I also lost family to Russian pogroms, but I don't know for
certain.)

Does your moral outrage over Nazi murders of 11 to 12 million people,
about half of whom were Jews, match your (justifiable) moral outrage over
what you portray as "Marxist" murders?  (I make that last qualification
because I am not convinced that Lenin, Stalin and Mao were obeying Marxist
principles in any meaningful sense.)

> A statistical question: precisely how many people were killed in
> gas chambers, and precisely how were these statistics arrived at?
> Is this a subject about which there is no debate among serious
> and respectable historians?

In fact, the numbers are not precisely known, and probably never will be
(for a variety of reasons).  Others can undoubtedly fill you in better
than I on the methods by which various numbers have been propounded.  In
fact, though, historians do research and discuss (I might not say
"debate") and attempt to ascertain the "actual" number as closely as
possible.

> And I never did see any clear reply to my earlier question: did
> the Allied forces collect substantial physical evidence of gas
> chambers when they entered the camps? Given the size of the gas
> chamber operation, as I have understood it from the popular
> story, it seems unbelievable to me that the collapsing and
> retreating Nazi forces could have erased all physical evidence of
> its operation. When you are on the verge of total defeat, you
> don't have the time and concentration to go about erasing all
> traces of your crimes; you are on the run.

Except that in the extermination camps, the Nazis had sufficient advance
warning to use explosives to destroy the gas chambers.  I believe I will
let others fill in the answer in more detail.

Emailed to Mr. McGuire.

-- 
D. J. Schaeffer |       The Todal looks like a blob of glup.
golux@mcs.com   |     It makes a sound like rabbits screaming,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^        and smells of old, unopened rooms.
                            -- Thurber, _The 13 Clocks_


Article 16727 of alt.revisionism:
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From: uroessl1@gwdu03.gwdg.de (Roessler  Ulrich)
Subject: Re: Faurisson vs. Berenbaum
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dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes:

>wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire) writes:

># A statistical question: precisely how many people were killed in
># gas chambers, 

>According to the "Institute for Contemporary History" in Munich,
>the numbers for the major camps are (I am quoting a summary they
>recently published):

[Summary deleted :]

>The difference between the total of the victims of the gassings cited
>in the above mentioned composition and the number of victims of the
>operation groups and the total of roughly 6 million victims of the
>Nazi persecution of the Jews results from the fact that a very high
>percentage of the victims have lost their lives through indirect
>extermination actions such as the method "destruction through work",
>bad treatment, under nourishment, epidemics, exhaustion during forced
>transportations etc.

>

># and precisely how were these statistics arrived at?

>I suggest that you write them and ask. Another good source might be
>the summaries of German courts in trials of SS men who served in the
>camps. 

The research done by the Institut fuer Zeitgeschichte on this subject
is reported in:

Dimension des Voelkermords : die Zahl der juedischen Opfer des
Nationalsozialismus / hrsg. von Wolfgang Benz. - Muenchen : Oldenbourg, 1991. -
VI,584 S.
(Quellen und Darstellungen zur Zeitgeschichte ; 33)
ISBN 3-486-54631-7

Unfortunately, the book isn't translated in English yet.

u.roessler                                     uroessl1@gwdg.de


Article 16738 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Faurisson vs. Berenbaum
Date: 30 Sep 1994 00:55:27 -0400
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In article ,
Wayne McGuire  wrote:
>Is it possible that the role of the gas chamber was slightly
>exaggerated in the Hollywood version of the Holocaust? (This is
>an actual, not a rhetorical, question. I don't know.)

    Given that people seem to think that six million Jews were gassed -
something no responsible historian has ever claimed; fewer than half the 
victims were gassed - it would appear so.


>A statistical question: precisely how many people were killed in
>gas chambers, and precisely how were these statistics arrived at?
>Is this a subject about which there is no debate among serious
>and respectable historians?

    There is indeed debate.  There were records of rail shipments of
prisoners, and estimates have been made from them.  However, the
conditions were horrible and many people died en route.  The number who
were already DOA is not known.  It is also unclear how many registered
prisoners at Auschwitz genuinely died of disease, malnutrition, etc., and
how many were gassed in a "Selection" with false entries made in the death
registers. 


>And I never did see any clear reply to my earlier question: did
>the Allied forces collect substantial physical evidence of gas
>chambers when they entered the camps?

    The Soviets captured all four major killing centers.  Belzec, 
Sobibor, and Treblinka had been completely razed and planted over well 
before the Soviets arrived.  Significant quantities of human remains were 
found.  Mark Weber has claimed not enough, but I rather suspect nobody 
ever really made a concerted effort to find every bit.

>Given the size of the gas
>chamber operation, as I have understood it from the popular
>story, it seems unbelievable to me that the collapsing and
>retreating Nazi forces could have erased all physical evidence of
>its operation.  When you are on the verge of total defeat, you
>don't have the time and concentration to go about erasing all
>traces of your crimes; you are on the run.

    The clearest physical evidence - bodies which could be autopsied to 
establish cyanide as cause of death - were cremated as they were killed.  
Thus there was no time pressure.  Once cremated, an autopsy is impossible.

    If the Germans were anything like us, they kept any secret documents 
(which explicit gassing orders would have been) in a classified safe.  
Upon retreat, just drop the contents in a bonfire.  Quick and effective.  
(Sort of an early version of Oliver North's shredding party.)

    The gas chambers were dynamited.  However, the small gas chamber in 
Krema I was converted to an air raid shelter, and Krema I was not 
dynamited.  Fred Leuchter found faint cyanide traces there.  I have read 
that the Poles found cyanide residue on a metal grille from one of the 
Kremas, but I don't have a reference handy - I think it's somewhere on 
Ken's server.  There is a gas-tight door with a protective metal grille 
over the peephole.  (Protecting against what?  The delousing chamber 
doors didn't have such a grille.)

    There are also documents that escaped the bonfire.  One mentions a
"Vergasungskeller" (gassing cellar).  An inventory sheet for the gas
chamber mentions shower heads, but the construction drawing (which has all
other plumbing in the room drawn in) shows no pipes going to any showers. 
(This is consistent with eyewitness reports of dummy showers to lull
people into a false sense of security.) There are also "wire mesh
introduction devices" listed on the room's inventory sheet, and
Sonderkommando member Filip Mu"ller said that besides the concrete support
pillars in the room, there were perforated metal columns into which the
Zyklon granules were dropped.  That certainly sounds like a suspicious
correlation to me.  There is a letter suggesting the preheating of the
chamber with heat from the cremation furnaces.  Had the gas chamber really
been a morgue, that would make no sense.  For a gas chamber, though, it
makes perfect sense - the more heat, the faster the cyanide disperses. 
There is an order for gas detection devices. 

    Not exactly an order signed in blood by Hitler with a thumbprint, but 
all these items do seem to converge on the same conclusion that was 
suggested by the eyewitnesses: that Zyklon-B was used to kill people at 
Birkenau.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


Article 16757 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Faurisson vs. Berenbaum
Date: 30 Sep 1994 16:26:41 GMT
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Ross Vicksell  wrote:

# ONLY fumigation gas chambers

SS-Doctor Kremer about his days at Auschwitz: 
[Quoted in 'The Good Old Days' - E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The 
Free Press, NY, 1988, p. 258].
-------------------------------------------------------------------
I remember I once took part in the gassing of one of these groups
of women [from the women's camp in Auschwitz]. I cannot say how
big the group was. when I got close to the bunker I saw them
sitting on the ground. They were still clothed. As they were
wearing worn-out camp clothing they were not left in the undressing
hut but made to undress in the open air. I concluded from the
behavior of these women that they had no doubt what fate awaited
them, as they begged and sobbed to the SS men to spare them their
lives. However, they were herded into the gas chambers and gassed.
As an anatomist I have seen a lot of terrible things: I had had
a lot of experience with dead bodies, and yet what I saw that
day was like nothing I had ever seen before. Still completely
shocked by what I had seen I wrote on my diary on 5 September 
1942: "The most dreadful of horrors. Hauptscharfuehrer Thilo was
right when he said to me today that this is the 'anus mundi', the
anal orifice of the world". I used this image because I could not
imagine anything more disgusting and horrific.




-Danny Keren.


Article 16758 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Faurisson vs. Berenbaum
Date: 30 Sep 1994 17:07:43 GMT
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Ross Vicksell  wrote:

# ONLY fumigation gas chambers

From the testimony of SS-Unterscharfuehrer Wilhelm Bahr:
[Quoted in "Truth Prevails", ISBN 1-879437-00-7, p. 99].
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Q: Is it correct that you have gassed 200 Russian POW's with Zyklon-B?

A: Yes, on orders.

Q: Where did you do that?

A: In Neuengamme [concentration camp].

Q: On whose order?

A: The local doctor, Dr. Von Bergmann.

Q: With what gas?

A: With Prussic acid [another name for Zyklon-B].

Q: How long did the Russians take to die?

A: I do not know. I only obeyed orders.

Q: How long did it take to gas the Russians?

A: I returned after two hours and they were all dead.

Q: For what purpose did you go away?

A: That was during lunch hour.

Q: You left for your lunch and came back afterwards?

A: Yes.

Q: Were they dead when you came back?

A: Yes.

Q: Did you look at their bodies?

A: Yes, because I had to load them.

Q: Why did you apply the gas to the Russians?

A: I only had orders to pour in the gas and I do not know anything
   about it.




-Danny Keren.



Article 16759 of alt.revisionism:
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Faurisson vs. Berenbaum
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Barry Shein (bzs@world.std.com) wrote:

: ...
: They know damn well there are gas chambers in Europe where they were
: used, 

ONLY fumigation gas chambers

: but suddenly they want a reconstruction in Washington, DC. Of
: course, they don't believe the gas chambers in Auschwitz are real so
: *I'm sure* they'll suddenly be convinced by a reconstructed one in
: Washington, DC...NOT!

: But that's always their point, right? They're handed absolutely
: rock-solid evidence and come back with some stupid comment like
: uh...er...why aren't there TWO of those. Given two they ask for three.

Says who?  We'd settle for just ONE.

            Ross Vicksell


Article 16760 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ike and the "Death Camps."
Date: 30 Sep 1994 23:07:07 GMT
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Keywords: Eisenhower

codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) wrote:

[Vicksell is reposting an old article]

#      At Dachau, Buchenwald, Dora, Mauthausen, and other work and
# detention camps, horrified American infantrymen encountered heaps 
# of dead and dying inmates, emaciated and diseased. 

True.

# Neither Dr. Larson nor
# any other forensic specialist has ever been cited by any Holocaust
# historian to substantiate a single case of death by poison gas, 
# whether Zyklon-B or any other variety.

It's hard to detect this after the corpse is burned. 

#   If not by gassing, how did the unfortunate victims at Dachau,
# Buchenwald, and Bergen-Belsen perish? Were they tortured to death?

Yes. See the book "The Belsen Trial" for more details. I might
type in some excerpts. "Holocaust revisionists" will not find
the book important, because it contains testimonies of people
who were in the camp during the period it was operational, and
the first law of "Holocaust revisionism" is that the testimonies
of those who were in the camps are not important.

# Deliberately starved? 

Yes - see above.

Of course, many died from typhus. They were held in such terrible
conditions, and starved to such an extent, that it was unavoidable.
The Nazis bear complete and full responsibility for everyone
who died in the camps, no matter what the reason was. 

#   What of the ghoulish stories of concentration camp inmates skinned
# for their tattoos, flayed to make lampshades and handbags, or other
# artifacts? 

According to, for instance, the "Institute for Contemporary
History" in Munich, these stories are true, at least for Buchenwald.
Other such barbarities include severing the heads of prisoners
and shrinking them (as I wrote in a different article, the
material sent to me from the "Institute for Contemporary History"
includes photographs of these shrunken heads, which were also
submitted as evidence in the Nuernberg trials). 

And, since Dachau is mentioned, let us not forget the numerous
medical experiments to which prisoners were subjected there; many 
of them died. The experiments were so thorough that modern medical
research consults the reports written by the SS doctors who
conducted them.

#   The lampshade and tattooed-skin charges were made against Ilse
# Koch, dubbed by journalists the "Bitch of Buchenwald," 

No, not only against Koch (who was acquitted of this specific
charge, but found guilty of other crimes). 

#  It would be tedius to itemize and refute the thousands of bizarre
# claims as to Nazi atrocities. 

Yes it would, wouldn't it.

# Dr. Morgen informed the court
# that he had been given full authority by Heinrich Himmler, commander of
# Hitler's SS and the dread Gestapo, to enter any German concentration
# camp and investigate instances of cruelty and corruption on the part of
# the camp staffs. According to Dr. Morgen's sworn testimony at
# Nuremberg, he investigated 800 such cases, in which over 200
# convictions resulted.^9 Punishments included the death penalty for the
# worst offenders, including Hermann Karl Koch, Ilse's husband,
# commandant of Buchenwald.

Perhaps Vicksell can tell us *exactly* what Koch was tried for
by the SS?

Also, it's interesting that Vicksell quotes Morgen as a reliable
source, because Morgen also testified about the mass murder at
Auschwitz (which, apparently, he tried to stop). So, do
"revisionists" accept Morgen as a reliable witness or not?

See what happens when you don't prepare your homework?

#  Both the careful phraseology of the Natzweiler report, and its
# effective suppression, 

Testimony of Magnus Wochner, SS guard at the Natzweiler Concentration
Camp
[Quoted in "The Natzweiler Trial", Edited by Anthony M. Webb, p. 89]
--------------------------------------------------------------------
 ... I recall particularly one mass execution when about 90 prisoners
(60 men and 30 women), all Jews, were killed by gassing. This took
place, as far as I can remember, in spring 1944. In this case the
corpses were sent to Professor Hirt of the department of Anatomy in
Strasbourg. 



# stand in stark contrast to the credulity, the
# confusion, and the blaring publicity which accompanied official reports
# of alleged gas chambers at Dachau. 

There was indeed some confusion regarding the Dachau gas chamber.
According to the "Institute for Contemporary History", only a 
few gassings took place in it.

#  Furthermore, a number of Holocaust authorities have now publicly
# decreed that there were no gassings, no extermination camps in Germany
# after all! 

No, what these people said is that the extent of gassing in the
camps inside the "Old Reich" was much smaller than that in the
death camps the SS built in Nazi-occupied Poland. The "Institute
for Contemporary History" lists 7 camps inside the "Old Reich"
in which gassings took place, and a few thousand people were
gassed in these camps. Far more prisoners died from other reasons, 
mostly intentional starvation, disease, overwork and plain old murder.

However, it is true that no camp inside the "Old Reich" was
nearly as bad as the death camps such as Auschwitz and Treblinka,
in terms of the total number of victims.

[an incredible amount of irrelevant rubbish deleted]


-Danny Keren.



Article 16761 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Faurisson vs. Berenbaum
Date: 30 Sep 1994 23:12:17 GMT
Organization: Brown University
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Ross Vicksell  wrote:

# There are cyanide traces in all sorts of Auschwitz buildings that weren't 
# gas chambers.  They used the stuff for fumigation of buildings, not just 
# fumigation of clothes.

Holocaust deniers claim the gas chamber of Krema I in Auschwitz is a
"post-war reconstruction". If that would have been the case, there
would not be cyanide traces on its walls.

Also, Vicksell does not seem to be able to respond to the testimony of
Hans Stark, about how he himself gassed people in that gas chamber.


-Danny Keren.






Article 16764 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Faurisson vs. Berenbaum
Date: 30 Sep 1994 16:30:48 GMT
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Ross Vicksell  wrote:

# ONLY fumigation gas chambers

Willi Mentz testifies about his days in Treblinka
[Quoted in 'The Good Old Days' - E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The 
Free Press, NY, 1988., p. 245-247]
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
When I came to Treblinka the camp commandant was a doctor named Dr. Eberl.
He was very ambitious. It was said that he ordered more transports
than could be "processed" in the camp. That meant that trains had to
wait outside the camp because the occupants of the previous transport
had not yet all been killed. At the time it was very hot and as a
result of the long wait inside the transport trains in the intense
heat many people died. At the time whole mountains of bodies lay on
the platform. The Hauptsturmfuehrer Christian Wirth came to Treblinka
and kicked up a terrific row. And then one day Dr.  Eberl was no
longer there...

For about two months I worked in the upper section of the camp and
then after Eberl had gone everything in the camp was reorganized. The
two parts of the camp were separated by barbed wire fences. Pine
branches were used so that you could not see through the fences. The
same thing was done along the route from the "transfer" area to the
gas chambers...

Finally, new and larger gas chambers were built. I think that there
were now five or six larger gas chambers. I cannot say exactly how
many people these large gas chambers held. If the small gas chambers
could hold 80-100 people, the large ones could probably hold twice
that number...

Following the arrival of a transport, six to eight cars would be
shunted into the camp, coming to a halt at the platform there. The
commandant, his deputy Franz, Kuettner and Stadie or Maetzig would be
here waiting as the transport came in. Further SS members were also
present to supervise the unloading: for example, Genz and Belitz had
to make absolutely sure that there was no one left in the car after
the occupants had been ordered to get out.

When the Jews had got off, Stadie or Maetzig would have a short word
with them.  They were told something to the effect that they were a
resettlement transport, that they would be given a bath and that they
would receive new clothes. They were also instructed to maintain quiet
and discipline. They would continue their journey the following day.

Then the transports were taken off to the so-called "transfer" area.
The women had to undress in huts and the men out in the open. The
women were than led through a passageway, known as the "tube", to the
gas chambers. On the way they had to pass a hut where they had to hand
in their jewellery and valuables..




-Danny Keren.


Article 16765 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Faurisson vs. Berenbaum
Date: 30 Sep 1994 16:32:35 GMT
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Ross Vicksell  wrote:

# ONLY fumigation gas chambers

Testimony of gas-van driver Walter Burmeister
[Quoted in 'The Good Old Days' - E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The 
Free Press, NY, 1988., p. 219-220]
------------------------------------------------------------
As soon as the ramp had been erected in the castle, people started
arriving in Kulmhof from Lizmannstadt in lorries... The people were
told that they had to take a bath, that their clothes had to be
disinfected and that they could hand in any valuable items beforehand
to be registered...

When they had undressed they were sent to the cellar of the castle and
then along a passageway on to the ramp and from there into the
gas-van. In the castle there were signs marked "to the baths". The gas
vans were large vans, about 4-5 meters long, 2.2 meter wide and 2
meter high. The interior walls were lined with sheet metal. On the
floor there was a wooden grille. The floor of the van had an opening
which could be connected to the exhaust by means of a removable metal
pipe. When the lorries were full of people the double doors at the
back were closed and the exhaust connected to the interior of the
van...

The Kommando member detailed as driver would start the engine right
away so that the people inside the lorry were suffocated by the
exhaust gases. Once this had taken place, the union between the
exhaust and the inside of the lorry was disconnected and the van was
driven to the camp in the woods were the bodies were unloaded. In the
early days they were initially burned in mass graves, later
incinerated... I then drove the van back to the castle and parked it
there. Here it would be cleaned of the excretions of the people that
had died in it. Afterwards it would once again be used for gassing...

I can no longer say what I thought at the time or whether I thought of
anything at all. I can also no longer say today whether I was too
influenced by the propaganda of the time to have refused to have
carried out the orders I had been given.




-Danny Keren.


Article 16766 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Faurisson vs. Berenbaum
Date: 30 Sep 1994 17:10:29 GMT
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Ross Vicksell  wrote:

# ONLY fumigation gas chambers

Testimony of Brack, regarding gassing of insane people in Germany
[Quoted in "Trials of War Criminals Before the Nuernberg Military 
Tribunals" - Washington, U.S Govt. Print. Off., 1949-1953, Vol. I, 
p. 876-886].
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Q: Witness, when adult persons were selected for euthanasia and sent
   by transport to euthanasia stations for that purpose, by what
   methods were the mercy deaths given?

A: The patients went to a euthanasia institution after the written
   formalities were concluded - I need not repeat these formalities
   here, they were physical examinations, comparison of the files,
   etc. The the patients were led to a gas chamber and were there 
   killed by the doctors with carbon monoxide gas (CO).

Q: Where was that carbon monoxide obtained, by what process?

A: It was in a compressed gas container, like a steel oxygen
   container, such as is used for welding - a hollow steel
   container.

Q: And these people were placed in this chamber in groups, I
   suppose, and then the carbon monoxide was turned into the
   chambers?

A: Perhaps I had better explain this in some detail. Bouhler's
   basic requirement was that the killing should not only be
   painless, but also imperceptible. For this reason, the
   photographing of the patients, which was only done for
   scientific reasons, took place before they entered the
   chambers, and the patients were completely diverted thereby.
   Then they were led into the gas chamber which they were
   told was a shower room. They were in groups of perhaps
   20 or 30. They were gassed by the doctor in charge.
 .
 .
 .

Q. What was done with the bodies of these people after mercy deaths
   were given?

A. When the room had been cleared of gas again, stretchers were
   brought in and the bodies were carried into an adjoining
   room. There the doctor examined them to determine whether they
   were dead.

Q. Then what happened to the bodies?

A. After the doctor had determined death, he freed the bodies for
   cremation and they were cremated.

Q. After he had freed the bodies, had determined that they were
   dead, they were then cremated? Is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. There was a crematory built for every one of these institutions?

A. Yes. Crematoriums were built in the institutions.
 .
 .
 .

Q. And these people thought that they were going in to take a shower
   bath?

A. If any of them had any power of reasoning, they had no doubt
   thought that.

Q. Well now, were they taken into the shower rooms with their
   clothes on or were they nude?

A. No. They were nude.

Q. In every case?

A. Whenever I saw them, yes.




-Danny Keren.



Article 16767 of alt.revisionism:
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Ike and the "Death Camps."
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Excerpt from the "Faurisson vs. Berenbaum" thread

Jamie McCarthy to Wayne McGuire:

: : You got suckered by Bradley Smith on Eisenhower's memoirs the
: : other day.  Smith mentioned that Ike had never written about the
: : gas chambers, and you got all concerned, gosh, maybe he has a
: : point.  When it was pointed out to you that Ike had written
: : about the death camp he first encountered (which probably didn't

Me:  

: The camp Eisenhower visited was not a "death camp." (The term applies much
: more accurately to the camps he established in the Rhine valley, for
: German POWs.) I'll post Ted O'Keefe's "The Liberation of the Camps" again,
: just to refresh your memory.  The western allies were just trying to keep
: up with the Soviets.  Tall order, in that the Soviets were the champion
: liars of all times. 

Jamie to Wayne:

: : have a gas chamber), and that Ike was terribly disturbed by Nazi
: : atrocities, you quieted up.  Presumably you realized that you
: : had been given one fact out of context -- one fact deliberately
: : chosen to make you question the reality of the Holocaust.

Well, here's the O'Keefe article:


        *** The "Liberation of the Camps": FACTS vs. LIES ***
 
                        By Theodore J. O'Keefe
_____________________________________________________________________
 
     Nothing has been more effective in establishing the authenticity
of the Holocaust in the minds of Americans than the terrible scenes
U.S. GI's discovered when they entered the German concentration camps
at the close of World War II.
 
     At Dachau, Buchenwald, Dora, Mauthausen, and other work and
detention camps, horrified American infantrymen encountered heaps of
dead and dying inmates, emaciated and diseased. Survivors told them
hair-raising stories of torture and slaughter, and backed up their
claims by showing the GI's crematory ovens, alleged gas chambers,
supposed implements of torture, even shrunken heads and lampshades,
gloves, and handbags purportedly made from skin flayed from dead
inmates.
 
     U.S. government authorities, mindful that most Americans, who
remembered the atrocity stories fed them during World War I, still
doubted the Allied propaganda directed against the Hitler regime,
resolved to "document" what the GI's had found in the camps. Prominent
newsmen and politicians were flown in to see the harrowing evidence,
while the U.S. Army Signal Corps filmed and photographed the scenes for
posterity. The famous journalist Edward R. Murrow reported, in tones of
horror, but no longer of disbelief, what he had been told and shown,
and Dachau and Buchenwald were branded on the hearts and minds of the
American populace as names of infamy unmatched in the sad and bloody
history of this planet.
 
     For Americans, what was "discovered" at the camps - the dead and
the diseased, the terrible stories of the inmates, all the props of
torture and terror - became the basis not simply of a transitory
propaganda campaign but of the conviction that yes, it was true: the
Germans DID exterminate six million Jews, most of them in lethal gas
chambers. What the GI's found was used, by way of films which were
mandatory viewing for the vanquished populace of Germany, to
"re-educate" the German people by destroying their national pride and
their will to a united, independant national state, imposing in their
place overwhelming feelings of collective guilt and political
impotence. And when the testimony, and the verdict, at Nuremberg
incorporated most, if not all, of the horror stories Americans were
told about Dachau, Buchenwald, and other places captured by the U.S.
Army, the Holocaust could pass for one of the most documented, one of
the most authenticated, one of the most proven historical episodes in
the human record.
 
                         A Different Reality
 
*      But it is known today that, very soon after the liberation   *
* of the camps, American authorities were aware that the real story *
* of the camps was quite different from the one in which they were  *
* coaching military public information officers, government         *
* spokesmen, politicians, journalists, and other mouthpieces.       *
 
     When American and British forces overran western and central
Germany in the spring of 1945, they were followed by troops charged
with discovering and securing any evidence of German war crimes. Among
them was Dr. Charles Larson, one of America's leading forensic
pathologists, who was assigned to the Judge Advocate General's
Department. Dr. Larson performed autopsies at Dachau and some twenty
other German camps, examining on some days more than 100 corpses. After
his grim work at Dachau, he was questioned for three days by U.S. Army
prosecutors.^1
 
     Dr. Larson's findings? According to an interview he gave to an
American journalist in 1980, "What we've heard is that six million Jews
were exterminated. Part of that is a hoax."^2 And what part was the
hoax? Dr. Larson, who told his biographer that to his knowledge he "was
the only forensic pathologist on duty in the entire European
Theater,"^3 informed "Wichita Eagle" reporter Jan Floerchinger that
"never was a case of poison gas uncovered."^4 Neither Dr. Larson nor
any other forensic specialist has ever been cited by any Holocaust
historian to substantiate a single case of death by poison gas, whether
Zyklon-B or any other variety.
 
                        Typhus, Not Poison Gas
 
     If not by gassing, how did the unfortunate victims at Dachau,
Buchenwald, and Bergen-Belsen perish? Were they tortured to death?
Deliberately starved? The answers to these questions are known as well.
As Dr. Larson and other Allied medical men discovered, the chief cause
of death at Dachau, Belsen, and the other camps was disease, above all
typhus, an old and terrible scourge of mankind which until recently
flourished in places where populations were crowded together in
circumstances where public health measures were unknown or had broken
down. Such was the case in the overcrowded internment camps in Germany
at war's end, where, despite such measures as systematic delousing,
quarantine of the sick, and cremation of the dead, the virtual collapse
of Germany's food, transport, and public health systems led to
catastrophe.
 
     Perhaps the most authoritative statement of the facts as to typhus
and mortality in the camps has been made by Dr. John E. Gordon, M.D.,
Ph.D., a professor of preventive medicine and epidemiology at the
Harvard University School of Public Health, who was with U.S. forces in
Germany in 1945. Dr. Gordon reported in 1948 that "The outbreaks in
concentration camps and prisons made up the great bulk of typhus
infection encountered in Germany." Dr. Gordon summarized the causes for
the outbreaks as follows:
 
                                * * *
 
     Germany was in chaos. The destruction of whole cities and the path
left by advancing armies produced a disruption of living conditions
contributing to the spread of the disease. Sanitation was low grade,
public utilities were seriously disrupted, food supply and food
distribution was poor, housing was inadequate and order and discipline
were everywhere lacking. Still more important, a shifting of
populations was occurring such as few countries and few times have
experienced.^5
 
                                * * *
 
     Dr. Gordon's findings are corroborated by Dr. Russel Barton, today
a psychiatrist of international repute, who entered Bergen-Belsen with
British forces as a young medical student in 1945. Barton, who
volunteered to care for the diseased survivors, testified under sworn
oath in a Toronto courtroom in 1985 that "Thousands of prisoners who
died at the Bergen-Belsen concentration camp during World War II
weren't deliberately starved to death but died from a rash of
diseases."^6 Dr. Barton further testified that on entering the camp he
had credited stories of deliberate starvations but had decided such
stories were untrue after inspecting the well-equipped kitchens and the
meticulously maintained ledgers, dating back to 1942, of food cooked
and dispensed each day. Despite noisily publicized claims and
widespread popular notions to the contrary, no researcher has been able
to document a German policy of extermination through starvation in the
German camps.
 
                   No Lampshades, No Handbags, Etc.
 
     What of the ghoulish stories of concentration camp inmates skinned
for their tattoos, flayed to make lampshades and handbags, or other
artifacts? What of the innumerable "torture racks," "meathooks,"
whipping posts, gallows, and other tools of torment and death that are
reported to have abounded at every German camp? These allegations, and
even more grotesque ones profferred by Soviet prosecutors, found their
way into the record at Nuremberg.
 
     The lampshade and tattooed-skin charges were made against Ilse
Koch, dubbed by journalists the "Bitch of Buchenwald," who was reported
to have furnished her house with objects manufactured from the tanned
hides of luckless inmates. But General Lucius Clay, military governor
of the U.S. zone of occupied Germany, who reviewed her case in 1948,
told his superiors in Washington: "There is no convincing evidence that
she [Ilse Koch] selected inmates for extermination in order to secure
tattooed skins or that she possessed any articles made of human
skin."^7 In an interview General Clay gave years later, he stated about
the material for the infamous lampshades: "Well, it turned out actually
that it was goat flesh. But at the trial it was still human flesh. It
was almost impossible for her to have gotten a fair trial."^8 Ilse Koch
hanged herself in a West German jail in 1967.
 
     It would be tedius to itemize and refute the thousands of bizarre
claims as to Nazi atrocities. That there were instances of German
cruelty, however, is clear from the testimony of Dr. Konrad Morgen, a
legal investigator attached to the Reich Criminal Police, whose
statements on the witness stand at Nuremberg have never been challenged
by believers in the Jewish Holocaust. Dr. Morgen informed the court
that he had been given full authority by Heinrich Himmler, commander of
Hitler's SS and the dread Gestapo, to enter any German concentration
camp and investigate instances of cruelty and corruption on the part of
the camp staffs. According to Dr. Morgen's sworn testimony at
Nuremberg, he investigated 800 such cases, in which over 200
convictions resulted.^9 Punishments included the death penalty for the
worst offenders, including Hermann Karl Koch, Ilse's husband,
commandant of Buchenwald.
 
     In reality, while camp commandants in certain cases did inflict
physical punishment, such acts had to be approved by authorities in
Berlin, and it was required that a camp physician first certify the
good health of the prisoner to be disciplined, and then be on hand at
the actual beating.^10 After all, the camps were throughout most of the
war important centers of industrial activity. The good health and
morale of the prisoners was critical to the German war effort, as is
evidenced by a 1942 order issued by SS-Brigadefuhrer Richard Glucks,
chief of the office which controlled the concentration camps, which
held camp commanders "personally responsible for exhausting every
possibility to preserve the physical strength of the detainees."^11
 
            Concentration Camp Survivors - Merely Victims?
 
     U.S. Army investigators, working at Buchenwald and other camps,
quickly ascertained what was common knowledge among veteran inmates:
that the worst offenders, the cruelest denizens of the camps were not
the guards but the prisoners themselves. Common criminals of the same
stripe as those who populate U.S. prisons today committed many
villainies, particularly when they held positions of authority, and
fanatical Communists, highly organized to combat their many political
enemies among the inmates, eliminated their foes with Stalinist
ruthlessness.
 
     Two U.S. Army investigators at Buchenwald, Egon W. Fleck and
Edward A. Tenenbaum, carefully investigated circumstances in the camp
before its liberation. In a detailed report submitted to their
superiors, they revealed, in the words of Alfred Toombs, their
commander, who wrote a preface to the report, "how the prisoners
themselves organized a deadly terror within the Nazi terror."^12
 
     Fleck and Tenenbaum described the power exercised by criminals and
Communists as follows:
                                * * *
 
. . . The trusties, who in time became almost exclusively Communist
Germans, had the power of life and death over all other inmates. They
could sentence a man or a group to almost certain death . . . The
Communist trusties were directly responsible for a large part of the
brutalities at Buchenwald.
 
                                * * *
 
     Colonel Donald B. Robinson, chief historian of the American
military government in Germany, summarized the Fleck-Tenenbaum report
in an article which appeared in "The American Mercury" shortly after
the war. Colonel Robinson wrote succinctly of the American
investigators' findings: "It appeared that the prisoners who agreed
with the Communists ate; those who didn't starved to death."^13
 
     Additional corroboration of inmate brutality has been provided by
Ellis E. Spackman, who, as Chief of Counter-Intelligence Arrests and
Detentions for the Seventh U.S. Army, was involved in the liberation of
Dachau. Spackman, later a professor of history at San Bernardino Valley
College in California, wrote in 1966 that at Dachau "the prisoners were
the actual instruments that inflicted the barbarities on their fellow
prisoners."^14
 
                            "Gas Chambers"
 
     On December 9, 1944 Col. Paul Kirk and Lt. Col. Edward J. Gully
inspected the German concentration camp at Natzweiler in Alsace. They
reported their findings to their superiors at the headquarters of the
U.S. 6th Army Group, which subsequently forwarded Kirk and Gully's
report to the War Crimes Division. While, significantly, the full text
of their report has never been published, it has been revealed, by an
author supportive of Holocaust claims, that the two investigators were
careful to characterize equipment exhibited to them by French
informants as a "SO-CALLED lethal gas chamber," and claim it was
"ALLEGEDLY used as a lethal gas chamber"^15 [emphasis added].
 
     Both the careful phraseology of the Natzweiler report, and its
effective suppression, stand in stark contrast to the credulity, the
confusion, and the blaring publicity which accompanied official reports
of alleged gas chambers at Dachau. At first, a U.S. Army photo
depicting a GI gazing mournfully at a steel door marked with a skull
and crossbones and the German words for: "Caution! Gas! Mortal danger!
Don't open!" was identified as showing the murder weapon. Later,
however, it was evidently decided that the apparatus in question was
merely a standard delousing chamber for clothing, and another alleged
gas chamber, this one cunningly disguised as a shower room, was
exhibited to American congressmen and journalists as the site where
thousands breathed their last. While there exist numerous reports in
the press as to the operation of this second "gas chamber," no official
report by trained Army investigators has yet surfaced to reconcile such
problems as the function of the shower heads: Were they "dummies," or
did lethal cyanide gas stream through them? (Each theory has
appreciable support in journalistic and historiographical literature.)
 
     As with Dachau, so with Buchenwald, Bergen-Belsen, and the other
camps captured by the Allies. There was no end of propaganda about "gas
chambers," "gas ovens," and the like, but so far not a single detailed
description of the murder weapon and its function, not a single report
of the kind that is mandatory for the successful prosecution of any
assault or murder case in America at the time and today, has come to
light.
 
     Furthermore, a number of Holocaust authorities have now publicly
decreed that there were no gassings, no extermination camps in Germany
after all! All these things, we are told, were located in what is now
Poland, in areas captured by the Soviet Red Army and off-limits to
Western investigators. In 1960 Dr. Martin Broszat, who is now director
of the Munich-based Institute for Contemporary History, which is funded
by the West German government to SUPPORT the Holocaust story, wrote a
letter to the German weekly "Die Zeit" in which he stated
categorically: "Neither in Dachau nor in Bergen-Belsen nor in
Buchenwald were Jews or other prisoners gassed."^16 Professional Nazi-
hunter Simon Wiesenthal wrote in 1975 that "there were no extermination
camps on German soil."^17 And Dachau "gas chamber" No. 2, which was
once presented to a stunned and grieving world as a weapon which
claimed hundreds of thousands of lives, is now described in the
brochure issued to tourists at the modern Dachau "memorial site" in
these words: "This gas chamber, camouflaged as a shower room, was not
used."^18
 
                      The Propaganda Intensifies
 
     More than forty years after American troops entered Dachau,
Buchenwald, and the other German camps, and trained American
investigators established the facts as to what had gone on in them, the
government in Washington, the entertainment media in Hollywood, and the
print media in New York continue to churn out millions of words and
images annually on the horrors of the camps and the infamy of the
Holocaust. Despite the fact that, with the exception of the defeated
Confederacy, no enemy of America has ever so suffered so complete and
devestating defeat as did Germany in 1945, the mass media and the
politicians and bureaucrats behave as if Hitler, his troops, and his
concentration camps continue to exist in an eternal present, and our
opinion makers continue to distort, through ignorance or malice, the
facts about the camps.
 
                          Time for the Truth
 
     It is time that the government and the professional historians
revealed the facts about Dachau, Buchenwald, and the other camps. It is
time that they let the American public know how the inmates died, and
how they didn't die. It is time that the claims as to mass murder by
gassing were clarified and investigated in the same manner as any other
claims of murder are dealt with. It is time that the free ride certain
groups have enjoyed as the result of unchallenged Holocaust claims be
terminated, just as it is time that other groups, including Germans,
eastern Europeans, the Roman Catholic hierarchy, and the wartime
leadership of America and Britain stop being scapegoated, either for
their alleged role in the Holocaust or their supposed failure to stop
it.
 
     Above all, it is time that the citizens of this great democratic
Republic have the facts about the camps, facts which they possess a
right to know, a right that is fundamental to the exercise of their
authority and their will in the governance of their country. As
citizens and as taxpayers, Americans of all ethnic backgrounds, of all
faiths, have a basic right and an overriding interest in determining
the facts of incidents which are deemed by those in positions of power
to be determinative in America's foreign policy, in its educational
policy, in its selection of past events to be memorialized in our civic
life. The alleged facts of the Holocaust are today at issue all over
the civilized world: in Germany, in France, in Italy, in Britain, in
the Low Countries and Scandinavia, in Japan, across our border in
Canada and in the United States of America itself. The truth will be
decided only by recourse to the facts, in the public forum: not by
concealing the facts, denying the truth, stonewalling reality. The
truth will out, and it is time the government of this country, and
governments and international bodies throughout the world, made public
and patent the evidence of what actually transpired in the German
concentration camps in the years 1933-1945, so that we may put paid to
the lies, without fear or favor, and carry out the work of
reconciliation and renewal that is and must be the granite foundation
of mutual tolerance between peoples and of a peace based on justice,
rather than on guns, barbed wire, prisons, and lies.
 
                                NOTES
 
 1. _Crime Doctor_, a biography of Larson by John D. McCallum, Mercer,
Washington & Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada, 1979, p. 69.
 
 2. _Wichita Eagle_, April 1, 1980, p. 4C.
 
 3. _Crime Doctor_, p. 46.
 
 4. _Wichita Eagle_, April 1, 1980, p. 4C.
 
 5. John E. Gordon, "Louse-Borne Typhus Fever in the European Theater
of Operations, U.S. Army, 1945," in Forest Ray Moulton, Ed.,
_Rickettsial Diseases of Man_, Am. Acad. for the Advancement of
Science, Washington D.C. 1948.
 
 6. _Toronto Star_, February 8, 1985, p. A2.
 
 7. _New York Times_, 24 September 1948, p. 3.
 
 8. Interview with Lucius Clay, _Official Proceeding of the George C.
Marshall Research Foundation,_ cited in "Buchenwald: Legend and
Reality," Mark Weber, _The Journal of Historical Review_, Vol. 7, no.
4.
 
 9. International Military Tribunal, Vol. XVII, p. 556; IMT, Vol. XX,
pp. 489, 438.
 
10. Cited in _The Theory and Practice of Hell_, Eugen Kogon, Berkley
Books, New York, pp. 108-109.
 
11. Nuremberg document NO-1523.
 
12. _Buchenwald: A Preliminary Report_, Egon W. Fleck and Edward A.
Tenenbaum, U.S. Army, 12th Army Group, 24 April 1945. National
Archives, Record Group 331, SHAEF, G-5, 17.11, Jacket 10, Box 151
(8929/163-8929/180).
 
13. "Communist Atrocities at Buchenwald," Donald B. Robinson, in
_American Mercury_, October 1946.
 
14. _San Bernardino Sun-Telegram_, March 13, 1966 (cited in _The Man
Who Invented "Genocide"_, James J. Martin, Institute for Historical
Review, IHR, 1984, pp. 110-111.
 
15. _Concentration Camp at Natzwiller [sic]_, RG 331, Records of Allied
Operations and Occupation, Army Headquarters WW2, SHAEF/G-5/2717,
Modern Military, National Archives, Washington, D.C., cited in Robert
H. Abzug, _Inside the Vicious Heart_, Oxford University Press, New
York, 1985, p. 10, p. 181.
 
16. _Die Zeit_, Hamburg, Germany, August 26, 1960.
 
17. _Books & Bookmen_, April 1975, Vol. 7, p. 5.
 
18. Leaflet, _Memorial Site Concentration Camp Dachau_, The
International Dachau-Committee, Dachau, Germany, n.d.
_____________________________________________________________________
 
     Theodore J. O'Keefe is former editor of "The Journal of Historical
Review." Educated at Harvard, he has studied history and literature on
three continents, and has published many articles on historical and
political subjects.
_____________________________________________________________________
 
     The conclusions of the early U.S. Army investigations as to the
truth about the wartime German concentration camps have since been
corroborated by all subsequent investigators and can be summarized:
 
1. The harrowing scenes of dead and dying inmates were not the result
of a German policy of "extermination," but rather the result of
epidemics of typhus and other disease brought about largely by the
effects of Allied aerial attacks.
 
2. Stories of Nazi supercriminals and sadists who turned Jews and
others into handbags and lampshades for their private profit or
amusement were sick lies or diseased fantasies; indeed, the German
authorities consistently punished corruption AND cruelty on the part of
camp commanders and guards.
 
3. On the other hand, the representations of the newly liberated
inmates to have been saints and martyrs of Hitlerism were quite often
very far from the truth; indeed, most of the brutalities inflicted on
camp detainees were the work of their fellow prisoners, in
contravention of German policy and German orders.
 
4. The alleged homicidal showers and gas chambers had been used either
for bathing camp inmates or delousing their clothes; the claim that
they had been used to murder Jews or other human beings is a
contemptible fabrication. Orthodox, Establishment historians and
professional "Nazi-hunters" have quietly dropped claims that inmates
were gassed at Dachau, Buchenwald, and other camps in Germany. They
continue, however, to keep silent regarding the lies about Dachau and
Buchenwald, as well as to evade an open discussion of the evidence for
homicidal gassing at Auschwitz and the other camps captured by the
Soviets.
_____________________________________________________________________

Ross Vicksell


Article 16768 of alt.revisionism:
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Is the Holocaust a Religion?
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One of the topics that's come up in the "Faurisson vs. Berenbaum" thread
is whether or not the HMM is a religious shrine.  I thought it would be a
good idea to split this topic off into a fresh thread.  Here's a piece by
an anonynous Revisionist. (Coincidentally, I met him for the first time
yesterday, but I forget his name.): 
                            _______________
                           \               /
                           | CULT OF DEATH |
                           /_______________\

                           by Doubting Thomas


                        A reprint from _REMARKS_



     Today, there is a pernicious attempt afoot to manipulate people's
thoughts by passing off the religious beliefs of a minority as facts, and
their legends as history.  The adjective "pernicious" is used because this
cult is looking for human sacrifices, and worse yet, IS GETTING THEM!

     The attempt of religious fanatics to impose their beliefs on others is
nothing new.  It is as old as the world itself.  If you can control the way
people think, then you can control the people.  There are, however, a
number of people who do not like being controlled, and are willing to speak
out against this heinous cult.

     This cult has shrines and saints, historians and hagiographers, holy
days and holy martyrs, legends and taboos, witches and witch hunters,
heretics and high priests; all the trappings of a religion, but it does not
call itself a religion.  It does however use religious education and
sensitivity training for the cult in schools, and especially, the
persecution of "witches" as its means of proselytizing.

     This might not seem untoward, after all we Americans do believe in
freedom of religion, EXCEPT THAT THEIR RELIGIOUS EDUCATION AND SENSITIVITY
TRAINING ARE DONE IN PUBLIC SCHOOLS, WITH GOVERNMENT CONSENT, AND THE
PERSECUTION OF "WITCHES" IS DONE THROUGH A FEDERAL AGENCY!  NOT ONLY DO
GOVERNMENTAL AGENCIES FUND RELIGIOUS EDUCATION, BUT A NUMBER OF THEIR HOLY
"SHRINES" ARE SUPPORTED WITH TAXPAYER'S MONEY!  TO ADD TO THESE OUTRAGES,
THIS CULT HAS BEEN INSTRUMENTAL IN GETTING LAWS PASSED IN VARIOUS STATES TO
DEPRIVE FREEDOM OF SPEECH TO THOSE THAT THEY CONSIDER TO BE "HERETICS"!

     What is this cult that can manipulate Congress to pass laws against
people it deems to be "witches," or to get religious funding from taxpayer
sources?  What is this cult that is trying to destroy the basic principles
upon which this country was founded?  (The separation of church and state,
and the freedom to say and write what one thinks is so basic to our way of
life that it became the First Amendment to the Constitution.)  Who are
these people?

     First of all, these people are clever.  Like lawyers, they twist words
to mean what they want them to mean.  Religious proselytizing is done in
the name of "education"; their holy shrines are called "museums"; their
hereitcs are called "hate mongers"; and their witches are called "war
criminals."  These people are the Cult of the Holocaust, and they are
attempting to undermine the basic freedoms of the people of this country,
and those of other people throughout the world.

     These statements are not wild speculation; they are fact.  England,
Canada, France, Sweden, and Germany, among other countries, all have laws
banning criticism of the Holocaust Cult.  PEOPLE HAVE BEEN SENT TO JAIL FOR
JUST SAYING THEY DIDN'T BELIEVE IN THE CULT'S VERSION OF HISTORY!  And if
you think it can't happen here, think again.

     Here in the U.S.A., a number of states have "hate" laws which single
out minorities for special protection and give stiffer penalties for those
who break these laws (all contrary to the 14th Amendment to the
Constitution guaranteeing equal protection under the laws to all citizens);
these laws are designed to curb the rising criticism of the cult.

     Some schools in various parts of the country teach "Holocaust
Studies," which give only the cult's view of history, while others have
sensitivity training where children are forced to role-play as
concentration camp victims.  Not only is the student's perception of
history distorted by these insidious practices, but the student is being
indoctrinated into this cult of death as well.

 _________________________________________________________________________
|                                                                         |
|     Beware of this cult.  It is indoctrinating your children, murdering |
| your neighbors, and stealing your money.  Stop it before you, or        |
| someone you love, become its victim.          --Doubting Thomas         |
|_________________________________________________________________________|


     Taxpayer's money is used to fund Holocaust Museums which are nothing
more than shrines, holy to the cult.  OVER THIRTY MILLION dollars have been
spent on the Holocaust Museum in Washington D.C., while "museums" like the
Simon Wiesenthal Center in Los Angeles get state aid.  The purpose of these
places is to indoctrinate people into the cult.


[Photograph captioned, "The U.S. 'Holocaust' Museum"]


     This is a cult of hatred and revenge, and its intention is nothing
less than the total domination of public opinion by furthering its
political influence to suppress dissent, all the while reaping the benefits
of the taxpayer's largess.

     In other words, they are making money by brainwashing the innocent and
persecuting guiltless people, while putting themselves into an unassailable
moral position by acting as "victims."  And they are doing it with YOUR
money!

     They are seeking an unending revenge for the "Holocaust."  The very
word "Holocaust" (with a capital "H") is an Orwellian concept used as a
propaganda tool to further the cult.  Prior to the 1970's this concept and
spelling were not found in lexicons; similarly the word and concept
"genocide" were not to be found prior to the 1940's.  "Genocide," the
earlier cult word of choice, was largely abandoned as the key term, and
"Holocaust" was adopted.

     The term was specifically coined to give coherence to a series of
loosely associated ideas dealing with certain events (now hotly debated by
historians) that are alleged to have occurred during World War II,
purporting a deliberate policy of racial extermination against the Jewish
people by the National Socialist government of Germany.  The term Holocaust
is a very new and very broad term.  Unlike the previous cult word
"genocide," it is ill-defined, and purposely so.  Specific inquiries as to
who, how, why, where and when of the alleged extermination are not invited
by the cult, particularly the how, since many claims that have been made
are physically impossible (particularly those having to do with poison
gas).

     The word is meant to conjure up atrocious images of dead bodies, and
to protect an emotional atmosphere designed to wallow in these horrors.

     The very use of the word precludes rational discussion of the topic;
either you are a believer or you are not.  If you're not, you are IPSO
FACTO a "hate monger," "neo-Nazi," "anti-Semite," or other such epithet
used to bring into question the credibility, EVEN THE VERY SANITY, of the
non-believer.

     This is a cult of hatred.  The hatred is mainly directed against
Germans, but Ukrainians, the Baltic peoples and other Eastern Europeans are
its victims as well.  Make no mistake, THIS IS A RELIGIOUS CULT.  It has
shrines (Holocaust museums such as Yad Vashem and former concentration
camps) and saints (Holocaust "survivors"), historians (Raul Hilberg, et
al.) and hagiographers (Lawrence L. Langer, et al.), holy days (Yom
HaShoah, National Days of Remembrance) and holy martyrs (victims of the
Holocaust), holy legends (false stories about lamp shades made of human
skin or soap made from human fat, and numerous physically impossible
"survivor" stories) and holy taboos (denying that these things exist),
witches (so-called war criminals such as John Demjanjuk, Andrija Artukovic,
et al.) and witch hunters (Simon Wiesenthal, Serge & Beate Klarsfeld, et
al.), heretics (historical revisionists such as Arthur Butz, David Irving,
et al.) and high priests (Elie Wiesel, Marvin Hier et al.); all the
trappings of a religion.  YET THIS CULT IS NOT RECOGNIZED FOR WHAT IT IS!

     The most pernicious action of this cult is the persecution of elderly
men of Central and Eastern European heritage as alleged war criminals.
Representative Liz Holtzman of New York ramroded through Congress a bill
which created an Office of Special Investigations (OSI) in the Department
of Justice specifically to persecute these men through a governmental
agency.

     A rising number of men have been stripped of their U.S. citizenship,
deported to foreign countries, and made to stand trial on capital offenses
before hostile courts.

     All these proceedings take place on the flimsy evidence of so-called
"eyewitnesses," who can't remember what they had for breakfast, but can
identify a "war criminal" more than FORTY YEARS after alleged events were
supposed to have taken place!

     These persecuted men are nothing less than HUMAN SACRIFICES TO THIS
HOLOCAUST CULT!

     The parallels between the trials of alleged "war criminals" and the
witch hunts of the Middle Ages and colonial times are striking.  The very
accusation of being a witch put the accused in a position of having to
prove they were innocent, rather than the accuser proving that they were
guilty.  The witches were all accused by "eyewitnesses" who claimed that
the accused witch had intercourse with the devil, flew through the air on a
broomstick, or some other physically impossible thing.  Fear and torture
caused many "witches" to confess that they were guilty.  THOSE WHO
MAINTAINED THEIR INNOCENCE WERE THE ONES WHO WERE BURNT AT THE STAKE.

     Beware of this cult.  It is indoctrinating your children, murdering
your neighbors, and stealing your money.  Stop it before you, or someone
you love, becomes its victim.

     --Doubting Thomas

*     *     *     *     *     *     *     *     *     *     *     *     *

     The article in this leaflet first appeared in the March-May 1993 issue
of _REMARKS_.  Additional copies of this leaflet are available for 8 cents
each, postpaid.  Minimum order $2 (25 leaflets).

     This leaflet may be freely reproduced as long as it is reprinted in
its entirety without any changes.

 _________________________________________________________________________
|                                                                         |
|          _REMARKS_ -- Commentary on Current Events and History          |
|                                                                         |
|     Jack Wikoff -- Editor, P.O. Box 234, Aurora, NY 13026-0234  USA     |
|                                                                         |
|         Each current issue contains twenty 8 1/2" by 11" pages.         |
|                                                                         |
|              Subscription rates for one year (six issues):              |
|                                                                         |
|               First-class postage to North America -- $24               |
|                    Third-class postage to USA -- $18                    |
|                        Overseas (airmail) -- $30                        |
|                      Overseas (surface mail) -- $22                     |
|    Student/senior citizen rate to USA (3rd-class postage only) -- $15   |
|   Student/senior citizen rate to Canada & Mexico (airmail only) -- $20  |
|     Student/senior citizen rate overseas (surface mail only) -- $20     |
|                    Sample copy of current issue -- $3                   |
|_________________________________________________________________________|


[end of text]


     This article was manually transcribed by the System Operator of the
"Banished CPU" computer bulletin board system, which is located in
Portland, Oregon, U.S.A.


                    Banished CPU supports Freedom of Speech!
          ___________________________________________________________
         |                                                           |
         |  For 300-9600 bps (3 lines w/V.32) call:  (503) 232-5783  |
         |  For 14400 bps (2 lines w/V.32bis) call:  (503) 232-6566  |
         |___________________________________________________________|

                        Sysop: Maynard "the Main Nerd"

[end of file]



Article 16769 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!sdd.hp.com!col.hp.com!csn!csus.edu!netcom.com!codfish
From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Faurisson vs. Berenbaum
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References:  
Date: Fri, 30 Sep 1994 01:39:13 GMT
Lines: 34

Jamie McCarthy (k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu) wrote:

: Ross, you are the regional director for an organization called the
: Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust.

: Will you debate any topic of substance about the Holocaust, with me
: or anyone else?

As I have have told you before, CODOH's primary mission is, as the name 
implies, is the promotion of open debate on the Holocaust.  This does not 
necessarily involve engaging in the debate.

I am, however, trying to put together a revisionist debating team.

: I'm not interested in innuendo or speaking in riddles.  Whether or
: not a museum built in the 1990s has a model of a gas chamber, has
: absolutely no bearing on what happened in Europe in the 1940s.
: You insinuate that it does.  But I'm not interested in insinuation.

If the number one Holocaust think tank in the world, this side of Yad 
Vashem, doesn't know what a gas chamber looks like, who does?

: I want a discussion of the facts and the evidence that relate to
: a topic of substance.  Will you engage me in such a discussion?

: Because if you have a case, you'd best make it.

: And if not, you'd best keep doing what you're doing:  speaking
: obliquely and hinting around, and hoping that people will buy it.
: That'd be your only alternative, after all.
: -- 
:  Jamie McCarthy   Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu   AppleLink: j.mccarthy
:  "...just consider alt.revisionism a suburb of talk.bizarre
:   and everything starts falling into place."  - Steve Miller


Article 16770 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!news.bc.net!vanbc.wimsey.com!scipio.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!sdd.hp.com!col.hp.com!csn!csus.edu!netcom.com!codfish
From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Faurisson vs. Berenbaum
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References:   <366a8a$lc2@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>  <369f9k$gv0@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
Date: Fri, 30 Sep 1994 01:49:25 GMT
Lines: 13

Danny Keren (dzk@cs.brown.edu) wrote:
: Ross Vicksell  wrote:

: # But that one's as phoney as the plaster model in the museum.  Don't taks 
: # my word for it;  Ask Piper at the Auschwitz Museum.

: If it's "phoney", why are there cyanide traces on its walls?

There are cyanide traces in all sorts of Auschwitz buildings that weren't 
gas chambers.  They used the stuff for fumigation of buildings, not just 
fumigation of clothes.

Ross Vicksell


Article 16771 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!ames!enews.sgi.com!decwrl!amd!amdahl!netcomsv!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!codfish
From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Goeth's arrest
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References:  <36de93$gs4@access4.digex.net>
Date: Fri, 30 Sep 1994 07:58:16 GMT
Lines: 14

:     What bizarre delusions these revisionists have about their 
: influence.  Spielberg gave only an indirect mention of the gas chambers.  
: I have no idea if Spielberg even knows that revisionists exist.  The 
: movie certainly has nothing to do with attempting to prove the existence 
: of gas chambers. 

What does?

: -- 
: Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
: POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
: Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.

          Ross Vicksell


Article 16772 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!ames!enews.sgi.com!decwrl!amd!amdahl!netcomsv!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!codfish
From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: New thread (was: Re: Faurisson vs. Berenbaum)
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References: <366hls$qli@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> <367u0r$sv1@urvile.MSUS.EDU>  <3eiYk0yNUMbJ069yn@world.std.com> <36en9b$bi5@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> 
Date: Fri, 30 Sep 1994 08:16:03 GMT
Lines: 8

For what it's worth, I've started a new thread called "Is the Holocaust a 
Religion?", for people who want to discuss whether the HMM should be on 
public land, whether it should be taxpayer funded, etc.

It would nice if "Faurisson vs. Berenbaum" were restricted to gas chamber 
talk.  Robert would have preferred it that way, I'm sure.

             Ross Vicksell


Article 16773 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!zip.eecs.umich.edu!yeshua.marcam.com!news.kei.com!eff!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!ames!enews.sgi.com!decwrl!amd!amdahl!netcomsv!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!codfish
From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Ever been there?
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References:   
Date: Fri, 30 Sep 1994 08:20:46 GMT
Lines: 43

Barry Shein (bzs@world.std.com) wrote:

: From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
: >: Their "explanation" depends on what side they woke up on.
: >: They claim that the nazis built gas-chambers for deloucing the
: >: prisoners clothes. (Yeah, right)
: >
: >
: >Is this guy doubting the existence of delousing chambers?  Wow!

: Um, I think that statement is made sufficiently clear by adding the
: word "only" someplace, like "for [only] deloucing [sic] the prisoners
: [sic] clothes."

: But I suppose you'd have to ask him.

: On the other hand, I've never looked into it especially but it does
: seem to me odd that you'd use cyanide gas to delouse clothing when
: much simpler and safer methods are available such as simply boiling
: the clothes, perhaps with something in the solution to ensure success.

: Gassing like that is usually used to deverminate a building or ship's
: hold which you obviously can't just boil.

: I could believe they had Zyklon-B on hand to disinfest barracks,
: perfectly reasonable and ordinary, but that wouldn't explain why they
: had gas chambers. You don't put a barracks in a gas chamber.

: Perhaps it's so, but it does seem odd.

: What evidence exists that the Nazis actually used Zyklon-B in gas
: chambers to disinfest clothing or similar or that this was a common or
: ordinary practice?

The disinfecting chamber at Dachau, for example.

: -- 
:         -Barry Shein

: Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
: Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD

           Ross Vicksell


Article 16775 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!zip.eecs.umich.edu!yeshua.marcam.com!news.kei.com!world!bzs
From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Faurisson vs. Berenbaum
In-Reply-To: codfish@netcom.com's message of Fri, 30 Sep 1994 00:22:10 GMT
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References:  
	 
Date: Fri, 30 Sep 1994 21:33:49 GMT
Lines: 44


From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
>: But that's always their point, right? They're handed absolutely
>: rock-solid evidence and come back with some stupid comment like
>: uh...er...why aren't there TWO of those. Given two they ask for three.
>
>Says who?  We'd settle for just ONE.

No you wouldn't, as has been amply demonstrated here over and over
again in what amounts to bad comedy and pathos.

So, what's YOUR problem with Hitler's Last Will and Testament in which
he boasts that he will be remembered fondly for having exterminated
the Jews of Central and Eastern Europe?

Lessee, Kleim believes it's not authentic (why? he won't say, it
doesn't agree with what he wants to believe), Raven will only consider
the question if it's first shown to be "the best single piece of
evidence proving the Holocaust" (his whacko concept and all-purpose
defense against anything he doesn't want to deal with) thus expending
far more energy on making that point than simply saying whether he
finds it compelling or not. Bradley Smith would rather babble on about
some insignificant bit of evidence like buckets doing the samba or
some quote from a GI reproduced in a glossy coffee-table book rather
than ever go near anything substantive like this (remarkably
transparent guy), lamppost seems to think it's far more important to
establish that Laurent Beria, head of the NKVD under Stalin was Jewish
(which he wasn't but that never stops lamppost, and god only knows why
he thinks it's even interesting except to imply that perhaps the Nazis
killed 6 million Jews and an equal number of Gypsies, etc because some
people of Jewish origin served in the govt of the USSR, that Stalin
purged the govt of virtually all Jews mercilessly before Hitler even
came to power never seems to sway his view), and everyone else (and
some of the above) are so busy hawking their newsletters etc to the
gullible they never seem to get around to dealing with substantive
evidence, etc.

So what's your reason?

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 16776 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!vanbc.wimsey.com!scipio.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!redstone.interpath.net!ddsw1!news.kei.com!world!bzs
From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Ike and the "Death Camps."
In-Reply-To: codfish@netcom.com's message of Fri, 30 Sep 1994 01:10:23 GMT
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References: 
Date: Fri, 30 Sep 1994 22:05:20 GMT
Lines: 79


Well, here's bullshit revisionist literature at its finest:

>     If not by gassing, how did the unfortunate victims at Dachau,
>Buchenwald, and Bergen-Belsen perish? Were they tortured to death?
>Deliberately starved? The answers to these questions are known as well.


Notice the list: Dachau, Buchenwald and Bergen-Belsen.

But where are Auschwitz and Birkenau and Treblinka? Why aren't they on
this list?

BECAUSE Dachau, Buchenwald and Bergen-Belsen didn't use gassing in any
mass way (it was almost certainly used, but not on a mass scale at
those camps.)

Yet it was used at Auschwitz, Birkenau and Treblinka, and other camps
not mentioned.

HOW CONVENIENT!

This is cheap and transparent crap designed only to hoodwink the naive
and gullible.

>Such was the case in the overcrowded internment camps in Germany
>at war's end, where, despite such measures as systematic delousing,
>quarantine of the sick, and cremation of the dead, the virtual collapse
>of Germany's food, transport, and public health systems led to
>catastrophe.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, 11 million victims of the concentration camps all
dropped dead from typhus over a few week period at the very end of the
war, right...Ooops, here comes the retort about how no one died no
doubt, well, if they didn't die then why explain that they didn't die
of typhus rather than not dying of poison gas?

These guys can't even keep their stories straight. One minute no one
or few died at all, the next minute they all slipped in the shower and
hit their head.

Since most of the death camps were being dismantled a year or more
before the war ended there's a little problem with this end of the war
story.

See, what these Nazis are actually trying to say is: It was the
American, British, French and Russian Allied forces who killed all
those people, not the Nazis.

That's what this is all leading towards, notice the emphasis on
disrupted food supplies etc.

Think about it.

>     Theodore J. O'Keefe is former editor of "The Journal of Historical
>Review."

	a revisionist rag

>Educated at Harvard, he has studied history and literature on
>three continents

	ie, no degrees, apparently not even a bachelor's, and
	who cares how many continents? What is this crap? Even
	Harvard has an "adult education center" where for around
	$200/semester you can learn how to "appreciate fine wine"
	or get lectured about starting home mail order businesses,
	etc. Probably what this is referring to.

>and has published many articles on historical and
>political subjects.

	Anywhere other than revisionist rags?

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 16778 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!news.bc.net!vanbc.wimsey.com!scipio.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!redstone.interpath.net!ddsw1!news.kei.com!world!bzs
From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Is the Holocaust a Religion?
In-Reply-To: codfish@netcom.com's message of Fri, 30 Sep 1994 01:23:21 GMT
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References: 
Date: Fri, 30 Sep 1994 22:15:26 GMT
Lines: 34


Ross,

Even after all these months it's still hard to believe that you
believe this twisted, sick tripe.

I remember growing up in NYC and getting vicious leftist and rightist
rags, stuff with doctored photos of whoever was president or pope at
the moment having sex with barnyard animals or "proving" that Eleanor
Roosevelt had a penis or whatever.

I still have some more recent junk from Tony Alamo which was stuck in
my door at home. This stuff tries to prove that the Pope is behind
every nefarious thing on earth, from drug dealing to deathgrips on the
US Congress.

That's what this crap you post reminds me of. Twisted stuff indicative
only of a pathetic and sick personality.

Notice that this latest "Cult of Hatred" posting doesn't even question
whether the Holocaust occurred as generally believed. It comes much
closer to saying that it did happen and was a pretty good idea so how
dare anyone say otherwise.

And ends with a hawk for money, of course.

Don't be fooled, these creeps are trying to make a buck, that's all.


-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD

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