The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/r/raven.greg/1996/raven.1096


From ihrgreg@kaiwan.com Sun Oct 27 14:32:23 PST 1996
Article: 77352 of alt.revisionism
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From: Greg Raven 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,sci.skeptic,soc.history
Subject: Re: Best of Pooh Bah: What about Columbus, Mr. Raven?
Date: Sun, 27 Oct 1996 13:03:12 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
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Fatbroad! (OFB) wrote:
> 
>              In loving memory of Stephanie Brumlik
> 
> (Originally published on GEnie, Category 15, Topic 4, Message 907,
> Fri Mar 27, 1992, POOH.BAH, at 19:26 EST)
> 
> [The IHR's Greg Raven said]
> 
>       "virtually everything I had been told about the Holocaust
>       story ...  in the classroom, on the television, in books ...
>       was in error. I can't think of any other topic about which
>       that can be said."
> 
> "How many other historical events have you investigated on your own?
> Perhaps  'virtually everything' you have been told about other events is
> "in error"  but you are not aware of that.

Perhaps so. That is why Holocaust extermination stories MUST be reexamined, right along with everything else we are taught 
or told.

-- 
Greg Raven (ihrgreg@kaiwan.com)
PO Box 10545, Costa Mesa, CA 92627
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg




From ihrgreg@kaiwan.com Sun Oct 27 14:32:25 PST 1996
Article: 77354 of alt.revisionism
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From: Greg Raven 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: IRVING TO CHALLENGE HOLOCAUST HATE PROPAGANDISTS
Date: Sun, 27 Oct 1996 13:23:00 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 34
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ibokor@metz.une.edu.au wrote:
> 
>  Daniel Keren qshs:
> 
> >Perhaps this "revisionist scholar" will explain how come there
> >are still cyanide compounds on the walls of the gas chamber, if
> >it was "built in 1948"?
> 
> d.A. ofers Danny several possibilities:
> 
> 1. It was placed there by the International
> Jewish Conspiracy to make the area toxic
> enough to prevent the constaruction of a
> supermarket.
> 
> 2. Just Moshe knows the answer, but he'll be
> buggered if he let's anyone else know.
> 
> d.A.

I didn't see the beginning of this thread, but I believe that Irving
said the so-called Nazi gas chamber at Auschwitz I was a reconstruction,
an opinion that has been expressed by others including F. Piper, head of
the Auschwitz State Museum.

Whether or not the building was a gas chamber, virtually everyone agrees
that several features such as the outer walls are from the original
structure. Thus, the HCN residues could very well be from delousings
conducted in the building.

-- 
Greg Raven (ihrgreg@kaiwan.com)
PO Box 10545, Costa Mesa, CA 92627
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg


From ihrgreg@kaiwan.com Sun Oct 27 14:32:25 PST 1996
Article: 77355 of alt.revisionism
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From: Greg Raven 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mike Curtis's "Gas Chambers"
Date: Sun, 27 Oct 1996 13:27:51 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 36
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Chuck Ferree wrote:
> 
> Chuck Ferree wrote:
> 
> Been around this mulberry bush before with this turkey. How many
> eyewitnesses can any of you folks round up who will say without
> equivocation, that Dachau had a gas chamber because they saw it, and
> listened while inmates explained how it had been used to gas humans
> under certain conditions and over a period of years?
> None of my statements have ever said that the SS didn't use the gas
> chamber to delouse clothing etc, they did, but they also used it to
> gas humans.

This is nonsensical. The Germans had delousing chambers, which would
have been difficult to use as homicidal gas chambers due to the exposed
mechanism, which could have been sabotaged by anyone targetted for
homicidal gassing.

Perhaps Mr. Ferree could inform us of the source of his knowledge on
this point, not only because he contradicts the authorities currently in
charge of Dachau, but also because he has in the past wavered on this
point of whether or not there were homicidal gas chambers at Dachau.

For that matter, I would like to know when Mr. Ferree arrived at Dachau,
as his previous explanations leave something to be desired, in that his
timeline does not match the known timeline of the "liberation" of
Dachau.

I have no doubt that Mr. Ferree could have been at Dachau, but based on
his claims about goings-on there, he would have had to arrive sometime
before the camp was liberated in order to possess this knowledg.

-- 
Greg Raven (ihrgreg@kaiwan.com)
PO Box 10545, Costa Mesa, CA 92627
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg


From ihrgreg@kaiwan.com Sun Oct 27 14:32:26 PST 1996
Article: 77357 of alt.revisionism
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From: Greg Raven 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: One More Time: Holocaust Proof
Date: Sun, 27 Oct 1996 13:39:29 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
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Kathleen Mulhern wrote:
> 
> I'll try this one more time, and since I have already included portions of
> this book in responses and they have, mysteriously, never recieved a
> reply, I'll try it this one last time:
> 
> The book: _Auschwitz: 1270 to the Present_.  The authors: Deborah Dwork
> and Robert Jan van Pelt.  The publisher:W.W. Norton & Company, Inc., 500
> Fifth Avenue, New York, NY  10110.  Copyright 1996 by the authors.
> 
> Page 222: "Design of a Degesch Zyklon B gas chamber.  Osobyi Archive,
> Moscow, coll. 502/1, file 322.  The tin with Zyklon B (5) is opened by a
> lever (3) connected to a tin opener (4); the Zyklon B crystals fall on a
> tray (6) and are heated by a hot-air blower (9) to facilitate
> evaporation."
> (snip)

Interesting description of the introduction of gas in a delousing
chamber, but unfortunately this contradicts so-called testimonies of how
the Zyklon B was introduction into the alleged homicidal gas chambers.

We know the delausing chambers existed, and we know how they functioned.
We are still awaiting proof of the existence of a Nazi gas chamber for
homicidal purposes.

-- 
Greg Raven (ihrgreg@kaiwan.com)
PO Box 10545, Costa Mesa, CA 92627
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg


From ihrgreg@kaiwan.com Sun Oct 27 15:12:43 PST 1996
Article: 77360 of alt.revisionism
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From: Greg Raven 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mr. Smith's half-truths: Auschwitz
Date: Sun, 27 Oct 1996 13:56:39 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 167
Message-ID: <3273DA96.38F4@kaiwan.com>
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AHABIZ wrote:
> well, let's see, 30,000 scheduled murders every two months, that's 15,000
> scheduled murders per month or 180,000 scheduled murders per year times
> four years is just under 3/4 of a million scheduled murders for that
> camp...hmm and that's just one camp...like I keep saying you can never,
> never, never trust a nazi.
> 
> Arlin H. Adams

You have made many assumptions in this post. Please refer to my file on
the Auschwitz death registers, which I attach to this post in hopes it
will come through unmangled. If not, please visit my site to see this
document in HTML

-- 
Greg Raven (ihrgreg@kaiwan.com)
PO Box 10545, Costa Mesa, CA 92627
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg

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The Auschwitz Death Registers -- A Summary

compilation and commentary by Greg Raven

The discovery of the "death books" in a Soviet archive lends yet more
credence to the revisionist position that there were no mass gassings at
Auschwitz. As you will see in the table below, not all the death books were
found, and so some of the data must be extrapolated. For reasons of time, I
have not shown the methods of extrapolating the missing data, but neither
the extrapolated data (nor the method used in the extrapolation) are needed
to illustrate the revisionist viewpoint.

Consider the years 1942 and 1943, for which we have nearly complete records
in the death books. We know that during these years, there were typhus
epidemics that ravaged the camps. Although the Nazi high command ordered
that all steps be taken to end the epidemics and save prisoner lives, this
same high command also planned to greatly expand the size of the Auschwitz
camp (in itself an argument against the extermination thesis). Using as
their basis the number of deaths in 1942 and 1943, Nazi planners set out to
build sufficient crematory capacity to handle the "normal" number of deaths
through typhus at the camp. In these plans, we see that the number of
crematories planned for Auschwitz was actually lower than the number planned
for "ordinary" (that is, camps not now claimed to have been extermination
centers) camps such as Dachau and Buchenwald, in terms of the ratio of
corpses per crematory.

Thus, the crematories that were built would have had no excess capacity to
handle the hundreds of thousands (let alone millions) of victims claimed to
have been killed in mass exterminations. As it has been pointed out, if
there were in fact homicidal gas chambers for mass murder, they would have
had to have as an accomplice enough crematory capacity to dispose of the
corpses. Without the crematory capacity, there could have been no mass
gassing program.

For those who cannot view the table below, the bottom line is that there are
67,227 recorded deaths in the partial set of Auschwitz death registers found
(or at least made available) so far. To this are added an additional 63.069
extrapolated deaths, for a total death toll at Auschwitz/Birkenau of
130,296. Of course, toward the end of the war when conditions were chaotic,
there could easily have been additional unrecorded deaths, but almost
certainly the total death toll at Auschwitz/Birkenau is less than 150,000.

   Start     End     Known   Extrapolated   Total   No. Of Deaths   Yearly
                     deaths     deaths      deaths   days  per day  totals

 5/1/40   12/31              2000          2000     245    8       2,000
          /40

 1/1/41   8/3/41             4000          4000     215    19
 8/4/41   9/10/41   1498                   1498     38     39
 9/11/41  10/20/41           1500          1500     40     38
 10/21/41 11/22/41  1490                   1490     33     45
 11/23/41 12/31/41           1500          1500     39     38      9,988

 1/1/42   1/2/42             69            69       2      35
 1/3/42   2/23/42   1500                   1500     52     29
 2/24/42  3/21/42   1496                   1496     26     58
 3/22/42  4/7/42    1490                   1490     17     88
 4/8/42   4/30/42   1429                   1429     23     62
 5/1/42   5/15/42            1500          1500     15     100
 5/16/42  5/29/42   1473                   1473     14     105
 5/30/42  6/13/42   1500                   1500     15     100
 6/14/42  6/25/42            1500          1500     12     125
 6/26/42  7/6/42    1499                   1499     11     136
 7/7/42   7/15/42   1498                   1498     9      166
 7/16/42  7/27/42   1460                   1460     12     122
 7/28/42  8/5/42    1498                   1498     9      166
 8/6/42   8/16/42   1472                   1472     11     134
 8/17/42  8/21/42   1489                   1489     5      298
 8/22/42  8/27/42   1498                   1498     6      250
 8/28/42  9/1/42    1492                   1492     5      298
 9/2/42   9/6/42    1498                   1498     5      300
 9/7/42   9/10/42   1498                   1498     4      375
 9/11/42  9/15/42   1492                   1492     5      298
 9/16/42  9/21/42   1404                   1404     6      234
 9/22/42  9/27/42   1488                   1488     6      248
 9/28/42  10/1/42   1442                   1442     4      361
 10/2/42  10/11/42  1438                   1438     10     144
 10/12/42 10/21/42  1482                   1482     10     148
 10/22/42 11/2/42   1484                   1484     12     124
 11/3/42  11/12/42  1490                   1490     10     149
 11/13
 /42      12/4/42            3000          3000     22     136
 12/5/42  12/14/42  1230                   1230     10     123
 12/15/42 12/31/42           1500          1500     17     88      44,309

 1/1/43   1/15/43   1492                   1492     15     99
 1/16/43  1/28/43   1484                   1484     13     114
 1/29/43  2/7/43    1486                   1486     10     149
 2/8/43   2/15/43            1500          1500     8      188
 2/16/43  2/22/43   1442                   1442     7      206
 2/23/43  3/1/43    1442                   1442     7      206
 3/2/43   3/6/43    1488                   1488     5      298
 3/7/43   3/12/43   1498                   1498     6      250
 3/13/43  3/17/43   1492                   1492     5      298
 3/18/43  3/23/43   1460                   1460     6      243
 3/24/43  4/1/43    1428                   1428     9      159
 4/2/43   4/13/43            1500          1500     12     125
 4/14/43  5/13/43   1480                   1480     30     49
 5/14/43  6/16/43            3000          3000     34     88
 6/17/43  7/1/43    1465                   1465     15     98
 7/2/43   7/28/43   1480                   1480     27     55
 7/29/43  8/29/43   1494                   1494     32     47

 8/30/43  10/12              3000          3000     44     68
          /43
 10/13    11/11
 /43      /43       1490                   1490     30     50
 11/12    12/10
 /43      /43       1414                   1414     29     49
 12/11    12/28
 /43      /43       1500                   1500     18     83
 12/29    12/30
 /43      /43       1494                   1494     2      747
 12/31    12/31
 /43      /43       970                    970      1      970     36,499

 1/1/44   12/31              36000         36000    366    98      36,000
          /44

 1/1/45   1/18/45            1500          1500     18     83      1,500
          Totals    67,227   63,069        130,296                 130,296

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From ihrgreg@kaiwan.com Sun Oct 27 15:12:44 PST 1996
Article: 77362 of alt.revisionism
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From: Greg Raven 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Hoess Testimony BITES THE DUST!!!!
Date: Sun, 27 Oct 1996 13:49:40 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <3273D8F3.6595@kaiwan.com>
References: <54akkc$1q3e$2@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net><54akkc$1q3e$2@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net> <54qf9v$2ml@juliana.sprynet.com> <54rrl4$2lbs$2@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net><54akkc$1q3e$2@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net><54akkc$1q3e$2@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net> <54qf9v$2ml@juliana.sprynet.com> <54rrl4$2lbs$2@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net> <54spvq$3d7@is05.micron.net> <550hd9$2iti$3@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
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Gord McFee wrote:
> Which has absolutely what to do with what?  I have seen Hoess' memoirs in
> German, English and French, and the three versions are the same.  This is the
> same Hoess BTW who talks openly in all three versions of his beatings by the
> English, his deprivation by the Poles, yet says he never expected to be
> treated as well as he was in a Polish prison.

The 1993 (1994?) version of Hoess' writings, under the title "Death
Dealer," contained at least one passage not found in previous editions.
This edition, brought out by Prometheus Press, is now available through,
I believe De Capo Press.

Now you can see what you have been missing.

-- 
Greg Raven (ihrgreg@kaiwan.com)
PO Box 10545, Costa Mesa, CA 92627
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg


From ihrgreg@kaiwan.com Sun Oct 27 15:12:45 PST 1996
Article: 77363 of alt.revisionism
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From: Greg Raven 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Hoess Testimony BITES THE DUST!!!!
Date: Sun, 27 Oct 1996 13:53:25 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <3273D9D5.134C@kaiwan.com>
References: <54akkc$1q3e$2@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net> <54qf9v$2ml@juliana.sprynet.com><54akkc$1q3e$2@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net> <54qf9v$2ml@juliana.sprynet.com> <54sppe$3d7@is05.micron.net> <550hd2$2iti$2@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
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To: Gord McFee 

Gord McFee wrote:
> 
> In message <54sppe$3d7@is05.micron.net> - kurtstel@micron.net (Kurt Stele)Sat,
> 26 Oct 1996 10:48:54 GMT writes:
> :>
> :>rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
> :>>>>>>
> :>>Is that what you think?  We aren't desperate at all.  Hoess's
> :>>testimony is worthless.  It is trash no matter where or when
> :>>he gave it.  It is useless as a source of confirmation for
> :>>your version of the Holocaust.
> :>
> :>And think of how much of the Holocaust DEPENDS on Hoess...
> 
> Wrong again, Kurt, but that's par for the course.  The Holocaust doesn't
> depend on Hoess even a little bit, let alone a lot.  But you knew that.

Really? Who would you cite as German eyewitnesses to the gassing
process, then? Hoess, Gerstein, maybe Kramer? Kramer clearly did not see
the details of any gassing, assuming for the sake of argument that the
"special action" of which he writes was a gassing (I think it was not).

Gerstein was a nut, who left seven (?) different versions of his
"confession." Unfortunately, he died before he was able to make them all
agree with one another.

Hoess gives the best detail (including aspects of an alleged homicidal
gassing that are contrary to the laws of physics and nature).

It is commonly claimed that Hoess is the best SS witness to the alleged
homicidal gassings. Without him, who do you have?

-- 
Greg Raven (ihrgreg@kaiwan.com)
PO Box 10545, Costa Mesa, CA 92627
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg


From ihrgreg@kaiwan.com Sun Oct 27 15:59:18 PST 1996
Article: 77365 of alt.revisionism
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From: Greg Raven 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Irving as a Historian
Date: Sun, 27 Oct 1996 14:02:50 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
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Yale F. Edeiken wrote:
> 
> >   ivanpv@aol.com (IVANPV) writes:
> >       As David Irving points out in "Hitler's War:  An Introduction to the
> >  New Edition" (which I found on the Web at Raven's site),  reviewers began
> >  to vehemently criticize him when  "Hitler's War" was released.  In this
> >  book,  Irving  denied that Hitler was responsible for the mass
> >  extermination of Jews, although he had not yet denied the existence of a
> >  deliberate, comprehensive extermination policy.  Therefore,  I think an
> >  honest assessment of the non-stigmatized Irving must deal only with
> >  reviews of his books published prior to 1977. (Mr. R. Graves, in a couple
> >  of  posts I have seen, doesn't recognize this point.)
> 
> >        A good illustration of the beginning of Irving's ostracism is the
> >  review of "Hitler's War" by historian John Lukacs in the "National Review"
> >  (Aug. 19, 1977, p. 946)  Lukacs begins the review by admitting that Irving
> >  "has written useful, well researched, and, on the whole, fair books on the
> >  bombing of Dresden, on German atomic bomb research, on the 'Luftwaffe,'
> >  and on the disaster that befell one particular Allied convoy sailing for
> >  Russia in 1942."   Lukacs then goes on to completely lambaste "Hitler's
> >  War."
> 
>         Then you must recognize the fact that Irving was twice sued for libel for
> statements contained in those books.  One suit -- for a book which you
> accept the characterization of "'useful, well reserached, and on the whole, fair" --
> he lost.  The second suit was settled by an agreement which apparently included a
> retraction of some sort.  You have also glossed over Irving's conduct during the
> "Hitler diary" flap during which Irving's behavior severely compromised his
> credibility.
> 
>         --YFE

Would one of these libel suits by any chance be the suit over Irving's
book, The Destruction of Convoy PQ-17? I attach the text of the cover
blurb from a reprinting of this book, just in case you missed it.



-- 
Greg Raven (ihrgreg@kaiwan.com)
PO Box 10545, Costa Mesa, CA 92627
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg

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The Destruction of Convoy PQ-17

Foreword

This was the book that Britain's Royal Navy tried to stop. When author David
Irving researched the history of the disastrous Anglo-American convoy
operation PQ.17 of June 1942 he stumbled upon the guiltiest secrets in the
Admiralty's locker: through their own blundering incompetence they had
mis-read the intentions of the Nazi battle fleet, mis-interpreted the
decoded signals, and abandoned the richly laden convoy of ships to certain
destruciton by bombers and submarines in the sub-zero waters of the Arctic.

Centuries-old publishing house Cassell & Co. published Irving's best-selling
narrative in 1967.

Their edition had at that time to omit certain well-kept secrets of World
War II. Even so the Navy struck back immediately at author Irving, himself
the son of a naval officer. Funded by naval officers, an ex-captain began
three years of bitter legal actions that made headlines in Britain and ended
with the book being banned all around the world, the author ordered to pay
the heaviest damages in British legal history, and publisher Cassell's
forced out of business; in the finest British naval tradition the captain
too lost nearly all he had in the battle. The Navy however sent a cheery
telegram of victory to Irving on the night the courts ordered the ban: "WE
ARE SPLICING THE MAINBRACE IN PORTSMOUTH TONIGHT" -- an extra ration of rum
for all hands.

Irving came back fighting -- "dismasted but not dismayed," as he put it. The
release of the Admiralty signals on Ultra -- reinstated in this updated
classic of naval history -- vindicates him. As Admiral Sir Norman Denning,
director of British Naval Intelligence, said when he first read Irving's
account: "This is the finest history of an Allied naval operation I ever
read."

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>From  the Foreword in:
The Destruction of Convoy PQ-17
by David Irving
New York: St Martins Press. October 1989.
Copyright David Irving 1987.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From ihrgreg@kaiwan.com Sun Oct 27 23:07:00 PST 1996
Article: 77431 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!nntp-hub2.barrnet.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!news.uoregon.edu!kaiwan.kaiwan.com!usenet
From: Greg Raven 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: HateWatch : New address -  hatewatch.org
Date: Sun, 27 Oct 1996 21:17:37 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <327441F1.4E00@kaiwan.com>
References: <54j82k$g8m@decaxp.harvard.edu>
Reply-To: ihrgreg@kaiwan.com
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:77431 soc.culture.jewish:86646

Harvard Law School Library wrote:
> 
> The new address for *HateWatch* : an online guide to hate groups,
>  is now http://hatewatch.org
>  Please make changes to your bookmarks.
> 
> The Editor
> HateWatch
> editor@hatewatch.org

Don't bother visiting if you are looking for information on Jewish hate
groups.

-- 
Greg Raven (ihrgreg@kaiwan.com)
PO Box 10545, Costa Mesa, CA 92627
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg


From ihrgreg@kaiwan.com Mon Oct 28 14:38:51 PST 1996
Article: 77547 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!hookup!nntp-hub2.barrnet.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!news.uoregon.edu!kaiwan.kaiwan.com!usenet
From: Greg Raven 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hoess Memoirs
Date: Sun, 27 Oct 1996 08:29:44 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <32738DF8.E0C@kaiwan.com>
References: <325d7e83.4204398@news.inetport.com> <53da2h$d7q@juliana.sprynet.com> <325e6c0e.2929082@news.inetport.com>  <53jh0r$934@is05.micron.net>  <53ptgp$pc6@is05.micron.net>  <541e28$hqp@is05.micron.net>  <5425on$j5t@is05.micron.net> 
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To: Mark Van Alstine 

Mark Van Alstine wrote:
> 
> In article <5425on$j5t@is05.micron.net>, kurtstel@micron.net wrote:
> > And were any lists ever found?
> 
> It is hardly suprising that so few have actually been found, considering
> that the Nazis made a concerted effort to destroy them:
> 
> "...According to the orders given by Himmler, all information concrnig the
> number of victims involved was to be butrned after each action at
> Auschwitz.
> 
> "As head of Department D I, I personally destroyed everybit of evidence
> which could be found in my office. The other department heads did the
> same.
> 
> "According to Eichmann, Himmler and the Gestapo Headquarters had also
> destroyed all their files.
> 
> "Only his [Eichmann's] personal notes contained this information. It is
> possible that becuase of negligence of some dpartments a few isolated
> documents, teleprinter messages, or wireless messages remain undestroyed,
> but they could not give enough information to make a calculation...."
> (Ho"ss, _Death Dealer_, p. 39.)
> 
> So, the Nazis, who since 1942 had made systematic efforts to erase all
> physical evidence of their mass murder of the Jews and others (cf. Aktion
> 1005), continued this tradition by also erasing the _administrative_
> evidence of their mass murder as well. Hardly out of character, I would
> argue....

This response ignores the fact that the Allies were intercepting Nazi
communications from Auschwitz (and elsewhere), and so compiled their own
reports that the Nazis could not have destroyed. These reports do not
show massive numbers of Jews (or anyone else) being murdered at
Auschwitz or elsewhere.

-- 
Greg Raven (ihrgreg@kaiwan.com)
PO Box 10545, Costa Mesa, CA 92627
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg


From ihrgreg@kaiwan.com Mon Oct 28 18:31:41 PST 1996
Article: 77581 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!olivea!news.sgi.com!wetware!kaiwan.kaiwan.com!usenet
From: Greg Raven 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Hoess Testimony BITES THE DUST!!!!
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 12:33:26 -0900
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 51
Message-ID: <327526A4.4664@kaiwan.com>
References: <54akkc$1q3e$2@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net><54akkc$1q3e$2@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net> <54qf9v$2ml@juliana.sprynet.com> <54rrl4$2lbs$2@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net><54akkc$1q3e$2@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net><54akkc$1q3e$2@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net> <54qf9v$2ml@juliana.sprynet.com> <54rrl4$2lbs$2@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net> <54spvq$3d7@is05.micron.net> <550hd9$2iti$3@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <3273D8F3.6595@kaiwan.com> <199610281747.JAA03493@rbi.rbi.com>
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To: Mark Van Alstine 

Mark Van Alstine wrote:
> In article <3273D8F3.6595@kaiwan.com>, ihrgreg@kaiwan.com wrote:
> 
> > Gord McFee wrote:
> > > Which has absolutely what to do with what?  I have seen Hoess' memoirs in
> > > German, English and French, and the three versions are the same.  This is
> > > the same Hoess BTW who talks openly in all three versions of his beatings
> > > by the English, his deprivation by the Poles, yet says he never expected
> > > to be treated as well as he was in a Polish prison.
> >
> > The 1993 (1994?) version of Hoess' writings, under the title "Death
> > Dealer," contained at least one passage not found in previous editions.
> > This edition, brought out by Prometheus Press, is now available through,
> > I believe De Capo Press.
> >
> > Now you can see what you have been missing.
> 
> Indeed. However, as usual, what is "missing" is that Mr. Raven ommitts the
> proper context when making his insinuations. To whit:
> (snip)
> A quick comparison between _Death Dealer_ and  the _Autobiography of
> Ho"ss_ in _KL Auschwitz Seen by the SS_ does indeed shows that the the
> "new" sections in _Death Dealer_, chapters two through sixteen, are an
> autobiography of Ho"ss's early life; his conviction, imprisonment, and
> political amnesty for the murder of Vehme; and his early carreer in the SS
> including, his experiances at Sachsenhausen prior to his being made
> commandant of Auschwitz. Additionally, as mentioned above, are also added
> the final letters to his wife and children and the profiles of the various
> SS members in regard to Auschwitz.
> 
> Most importantly, however, is the simple fact that the sections dealing
> with Ho"ss experiances as the commandant of Auschwitz are basically
> identical between  _Death Dealer_ and  _KL Auschwitz Seen by the SS_.
> Obviously, when it comes down to the issue of any "new" revelations about
> the mass murder of over a million people at Auschwitz, Mr. Raven's
> insinuations, as usual, fall quite short of the mark.
> 
> Mark

You apparently overlooked the paragraph on page 38 of Death Dealer,
which editor Stephen Paskuly even footnotes with the explanation, "This
paragraph was omitted in the German and previous English editions."

In your rush to engage in a personal attack against me for disagreeing
with your position on Holocaust extermination claims, you overlooked
what some might call a fairly obvious piece of evidence.

--
Greg Raven (ihrgreg@kaiwan.com)
PO Box 10545, Costa Mesa, CA 92627
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg


From ihrgreg@kaiwan.com Mon Oct 28 22:54:37 PST 1996
Article: 77596 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news-out.internetmci.com!pull-feed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!UB.com!kaiwan.kaiwan.com!usenet
From: Greg Raven 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: [Fwd: Re: Mr. Smith's half-truths: Auschwitz]
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 18:50:20 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 199
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-- 
Greg Raven (ihrgreg@kaiwan.com)
PO Box 10545, Costa Mesa, CA 92627
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg

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Message-ID: <3273DA96.38F4@kaiwan.com>
Date: Sun, 27 Oct 1996 13:56:39 -0800
From: Greg Raven 
Reply-To: ihrgreg@kaiwan.com
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Macintosh; I; 68K)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mr. Smith's half-truths: Auschwitz
References: <846266647$7545@atype.com> <54rm5v$peh@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
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AHABIZ wrote:
> well, let's see, 30,000 scheduled murders every two months, that's 15,000
> scheduled murders per month or 180,000 scheduled murders per year times
> four years is just under 3/4 of a million scheduled murders for that
> camp...hmm and that's just one camp...like I keep saying you can never,
> never, never trust a nazi.
> 
> Arlin H. Adams

You have made many assumptions in this post. Please refer to my file on
the Auschwitz death registers, which I attach to this post in hopes it
will come through unmangled. If not, please visit my site to see this
document in HTML

-- 
Greg Raven (ihrgreg@kaiwan.com)
PO Box 10545, Costa Mesa, CA 92627
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg

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The Auschwitz Death Registers -- A Summary

compilation and commentary by Greg Raven

The discovery of the "death books" in a Soviet archive lends yet more
credence to the revisionist position that there were no mass gassings at
Auschwitz. As you will see in the table below, not all the death books were
found, and so some of the data must be extrapolated. For reasons of time, I
have not shown the methods of extrapolating the missing data, but neither
the extrapolated data (nor the method used in the extrapolation) are needed
to illustrate the revisionist viewpoint.

Consider the years 1942 and 1943, for which we have nearly complete records
in the death books. We know that during these years, there were typhus
epidemics that ravaged the camps. Although the Nazi high command ordered
that all steps be taken to end the epidemics and save prisoner lives, this
same high command also planned to greatly expand the size of the Auschwitz
camp (in itself an argument against the extermination thesis). Using as
their basis the number of deaths in 1942 and 1943, Nazi planners set out to
build sufficient crematory capacity to handle the "normal" number of deaths
through typhus at the camp. In these plans, we see that the number of
crematories planned for Auschwitz was actually lower than the number planned
for "ordinary" (that is, camps not now claimed to have been extermination
centers) camps such as Dachau and Buchenwald, in terms of the ratio of
corpses per crematory.

Thus, the crematories that were built would have had no excess capacity to
handle the hundreds of thousands (let alone millions) of victims claimed to
have been killed in mass exterminations. As it has been pointed out, if
there were in fact homicidal gas chambers for mass murder, they would have
had to have as an accomplice enough crematory capacity to dispose of the
corpses. Without the crematory capacity, there could have been no mass
gassing program.

For those who cannot view the table below, the bottom line is that there are
67,227 recorded deaths in the partial set of Auschwitz death registers found
(or at least made available) so far. To this are added an additional 63.069
extrapolated deaths, for a total death toll at Auschwitz/Birkenau of
130,296. Of course, toward the end of the war when conditions were chaotic,
there could easily have been additional unrecorded deaths, but almost
certainly the total death toll at Auschwitz/Birkenau is less than 150,000.

   Start     End     Known   Extrapolated   Total   No. Of Deaths   Yearly
                     deaths     deaths      deaths   days  per day  totals

 5/1/40   12/31              2000          2000     245    8       2,000
          /40

 1/1/41   8/3/41             4000          4000     215    19
 8/4/41   9/10/41   1498                   1498     38     39
 9/11/41  10/20/41           1500          1500     40     38
 10/21/41 11/22/41  1490                   1490     33     45
 11/23/41 12/31/41           1500          1500     39     38      9,988

 1/1/42   1/2/42             69            69       2      35
 1/3/42   2/23/42   1500                   1500     52     29
 2/24/42  3/21/42   1496                   1496     26     58
 3/22/42  4/7/42    1490                   1490     17     88
 4/8/42   4/30/42   1429                   1429     23     62
 5/1/42   5/15/42            1500          1500     15     100
 5/16/42  5/29/42   1473                   1473     14     105
 5/30/42  6/13/42   1500                   1500     15     100
 6/14/42  6/25/42            1500          1500     12     125
 6/26/42  7/6/42    1499                   1499     11     136
 7/7/42   7/15/42   1498                   1498     9      166
 7/16/42  7/27/42   1460                   1460     12     122
 7/28/42  8/5/42    1498                   1498     9      166
 8/6/42   8/16/42   1472                   1472     11     134
 8/17/42  8/21/42   1489                   1489     5      298
 8/22/42  8/27/42   1498                   1498     6      250
 8/28/42  9/1/42    1492                   1492     5      298
 9/2/42   9/6/42    1498                   1498     5      300
 9/7/42   9/10/42   1498                   1498     4      375
 9/11/42  9/15/42   1492                   1492     5      298
 9/16/42  9/21/42   1404                   1404     6      234
 9/22/42  9/27/42   1488                   1488     6      248
 9/28/42  10/1/42   1442                   1442     4      361
 10/2/42  10/11/42  1438                   1438     10     144
 10/12/42 10/21/42  1482                   1482     10     148
 10/22/42 11/2/42   1484                   1484     12     124
 11/3/42  11/12/42  1490                   1490     10     149
 11/13
 /42      12/4/42            3000          3000     22     136
 12/5/42  12/14/42  1230                   1230     10     123
 12/15/42 12/31/42           1500          1500     17     88      44,309

 1/1/43   1/15/43   1492                   1492     15     99
 1/16/43  1/28/43   1484                   1484     13     114
 1/29/43  2/7/43    1486                   1486     10     149
 2/8/43   2/15/43            1500          1500     8      188
 2/16/43  2/22/43   1442                   1442     7      206
 2/23/43  3/1/43    1442                   1442     7      206
 3/2/43   3/6/43    1488                   1488     5      298
 3/7/43   3/12/43   1498                   1498     6      250
 3/13/43  3/17/43   1492                   1492     5      298
 3/18/43  3/23/43   1460                   1460     6      243
 3/24/43  4/1/43    1428                   1428     9      159
 4/2/43   4/13/43            1500          1500     12     125
 4/14/43  5/13/43   1480                   1480     30     49
 5/14/43  6/16/43            3000          3000     34     88
 6/17/43  7/1/43    1465                   1465     15     98
 7/2/43   7/28/43   1480                   1480     27     55
 7/29/43  8/29/43   1494                   1494     32     47

 8/30/43  10/12              3000          3000     44     68
          /43
 10/13    11/11
 /43      /43       1490                   1490     30     50
 11/12    12/10
 /43      /43       1414                   1414     29     49
 12/11    12/28
 /43      /43       1500                   1500     18     83
 12/29    12/30
 /43      /43       1494                   1494     2      747
 12/31    12/31
 /43      /43       970                    970      1      970     36,499

 1/1/44   12/31              36000         36000    366    98      36,000
          /44

 1/1/45   1/18/45            1500          1500     18     83      1,500
          Totals    67,227   63,069        130,296                 130,296

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
For the current IHR catalog, with a complete listing of books and audio and
video tapes, send two dollars to:

Institute For Historical Review
Post Office Box 2739
Newport Beach, California 92659

Send all questions and comments to ihrgreg@kaiwan.com

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From ihrgreg@kaiwan.com Mon Oct 28 22:54:38 PST 1996
Article: 77597 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news-out.internetmci.com!pull-feed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!UB.com!kaiwan.kaiwan.com!usenet
From: Greg Raven 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: [Fwd: Re: Irving as a Historian]
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 18:50:49 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 123
Message-ID: <32757108.673@kaiwan.com>
Reply-To: ihrgreg@kaiwan.com
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Message-ID: <3273DC09.30B@kaiwan.com>
Date: Sun, 27 Oct 1996 14:02:50 -0800
From: Greg Raven 
Reply-To: ihrgreg@kaiwan.com
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Macintosh; I; 68K)
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Yale F. Edeiken wrote:
> 
> >   ivanpv@aol.com (IVANPV) writes:
> >       As David Irving points out in "Hitler's War:  An Introduction to the
> >  New Edition" (which I found on the Web at Raven's site),  reviewers began
> >  to vehemently criticize him when  "Hitler's War" was released.  In this
> >  book,  Irving  denied that Hitler was responsible for the mass
> >  extermination of Jews, although he had not yet denied the existence of a
> >  deliberate, comprehensive extermination policy.  Therefore,  I think an
> >  honest assessment of the non-stigmatized Irving must deal only with
> >  reviews of his books published prior to 1977. (Mr. R. Graves, in a couple
> >  of  posts I have seen, doesn't recognize this point.)
> 
> >        A good illustration of the beginning of Irving's ostracism is the
> >  review of "Hitler's War" by historian John Lukacs in the "National Review"
> >  (Aug. 19, 1977, p. 946)  Lukacs begins the review by admitting that Irving
> >  "has written useful, well researched, and, on the whole, fair books on the
> >  bombing of Dresden, on German atomic bomb research, on the 'Luftwaffe,'
> >  and on the disaster that befell one particular Allied convoy sailing for
> >  Russia in 1942."   Lukacs then goes on to completely lambaste "Hitler's
> >  War."
> 
>         Then you must recognize the fact that Irving was twice sued for libel for
> statements contained in those books.  One suit -- for a book which you
> accept the characterization of "'useful, well reserached, and on the whole, fair" --
> he lost.  The second suit was settled by an agreement which apparently included a
> retraction of some sort.  You have also glossed over Irving's conduct during the
> "Hitler diary" flap during which Irving's behavior severely compromised his
> credibility.
> 
>         --YFE

Would one of these libel suits by any chance be the suit over Irving's
book, The Destruction of Convoy PQ-17? I attach the text of the cover
blurb from a reprinting of this book, just in case you missed it.



-- 
Greg Raven (ihrgreg@kaiwan.com)
PO Box 10545, Costa Mesa, CA 92627
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg

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The Destruction of Convoy PQ-17

Foreword

This was the book that Britain's Royal Navy tried to stop. When author David
Irving researched the history of the disastrous Anglo-American convoy
operation PQ.17 of June 1942 he stumbled upon the guiltiest secrets in the
Admiralty's locker: through their own blundering incompetence they had
mis-read the intentions of the Nazi battle fleet, mis-interpreted the
decoded signals, and abandoned the richly laden convoy of ships to certain
destruciton by bombers and submarines in the sub-zero waters of the Arctic.

Centuries-old publishing house Cassell & Co. published Irving's best-selling
narrative in 1967.

Their edition had at that time to omit certain well-kept secrets of World
War II. Even so the Navy struck back immediately at author Irving, himself
the son of a naval officer. Funded by naval officers, an ex-captain began
three years of bitter legal actions that made headlines in Britain and ended
with the book being banned all around the world, the author ordered to pay
the heaviest damages in British legal history, and publisher Cassell's
forced out of business; in the finest British naval tradition the captain
too lost nearly all he had in the battle. The Navy however sent a cheery
telegram of victory to Irving on the night the courts ordered the ban: "WE
ARE SPLICING THE MAINBRACE IN PORTSMOUTH TONIGHT" -- an extra ration of rum
for all hands.

Irving came back fighting -- "dismasted but not dismayed," as he put it. The
release of the Admiralty signals on Ultra -- reinstated in this updated
classic of naval history -- vindicates him. As Admiral Sir Norman Denning,
director of British Naval Intelligence, said when he first read Irving's
account: "This is the finest history of an Allied naval operation I ever
read."

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>From the Foreword in:
The Destruction of Convoy PQ-17
by David Irving
New York: St Martins Press. October 1989.
Copyright David Irving 1987.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
For the current IHR catalog, with a complete listing of books and audio and
video tapes, send two dollars to:

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Send all questions and comments to ihrgreg@kaiwan.com

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From ihrgreg@kaiwan.com Mon Oct 28 22:54:39 PST 1996
Article: 77598 of alt.revisionism
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From: Greg Raven 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: [Fwd: Re: A Tale of six Gassings]
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 18:51:52 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
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Thisis Aforgery wrote:
> I mean is there any more absurd witness than this?  Certainly
> there is.  I simply have not added them yet.

Perhaps he was nursing at the time. Mr. Van Alstine has thoughtfully
provided a quote from the Kitty Hart book that implies that nursing
babies do not breath for several minutes at a time, which makes it
extremely difficult to gas them using Zyklon B.

-- 
Greg Raven (ihrgreg@kaiwan.com)
PO Box 10545, Costa Mesa, CA 92627
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg


From ihrgreg@kaiwan.com Tue Oct 29 00:27:39 PST 1996
Article: 77631 of alt.revisionism
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From: Greg Raven 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A Tale of six Gassings
Date: Sun, 27 Oct 1996 14:08:43 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
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Thisis Aforgery wrote:
> I mean is there any more absurd witness than this?  Certainly
> there is.  I simply have not added them yet.

Perhaps he was nursing at the time Mr. Van Alstine has thoughtfully
provided a quote from the Kitty Hart book that implies that nursing
babies do not breath for several minutes at a time, which makes it
extremely difficult to gas them using Zyklon B.

-- 
Greg Raven (ihrgreg@kaiwan.com)
PO Box 10545, Costa Mesa, CA 92627
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg


From ihrgreg@kaiwan.com Wed Oct 30 07:29:15 PST 1996
Article: 77762 of alt.revisionism
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From: Greg Raven 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Jewish Soap
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 22:01:32 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
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-- 
Greg Raven (ihrgreg@kaiwan.com)
PO Box 10545, Costa Mesa, CA 92627
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg

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'Jewish soap'

by Mark Weber

One of the most lurid and slanderous Holocaust claims is the story that the
Germans manufactured soap from the bodies of their victims. Although a
similar charge during the First World War was exposed as a hoax almost
immediately afterwards, it was nevertheless revived and widely believed
during the Second. More important, this accusation was "proved" at the main
Nuremberg trial of 1945-1946, and has been authoritatively endorsed by
numerous historians in the decades since. In recent years, though, as part
of a broad retreat from the most obviously untenable aspects of the
"orthodox" extermination story, Holocaust historians have grudgingly
conceded that the human soap tale is a wartime propaganda lie. In their
retreat, though, these historians have tried to dismiss the soap story as a
mere wartime "rumor," neglecting to mention that international Jewish
organizations and then Allied governments endorsed and sanctioned this
libelous canard.

Wartime rumors that the Germans were manufacturing soap from the corpses of
slaughtered Jews were based in part on the fact that soap bars distributed
by German authorities in Jewish ghettos and camps bore the impressed
initials "RIF," which many took to stand for "Rein juedisches Fett" or "Pure
Jewish Fat." (It did not seem to matter that the letters were "RIF" and not
"RJF.") These rumors spread so widely in 1941 and 1942 that by late 1942
German authorities in Poland and Slovakia were expressing official concern
about their impact.

According to a Polish source quoted in a secret wartime U.S. Army military
intelligence report, for example, the Germans were operating a "human soap
factory" in 1941 at Turek, Poland. "The Germans had brought thousands of
Polish teachers, priests and Jews there and after extracting the blood serum
>from  their bodies, had thrown them on large pots and melted off grease to
make soap," the intelligence report added.

Macabre "Jewish soap" jokes became popular in the ghettos and camps, and
many non-Jews on the outside came to believe the story. When trains loaded
with Jewish deportees stopped temporarily at rail stations, Poles reportedly
would gleefully shout at them: "Jews to soap!" Even British prisoners of war
interned at Auschwitz in 1944 testified later about the wartime rumors that
corpses of gassing victims were being turned into soap there.

In spite of its inherently incredible character, the soap story became an
important feature of Jewish and Allied war propaganda. Rabbi Stephen S.
Wise, wartime head of both the World Jewish Congress and the American Jewish
Congress, publicly charged in November 1942 that Jewish corpses were being
"processed into such war-vital commodities as soap, fats and fertilizer" by
the Germans. He further announced that the Germans were "even exhuming the
dead for the value of the corpses," and were paying fifty marks for each
body.

In late 1942, the Congress Weekly, published by the American Jewish
Congress, editorialized that the Germans were turning Jews "by scientific
methods of dissolution into fertilizer, soap and glue." An article in the
same issue reported that Jewish deportees from France and Holland were being
processed into "soap, glue and train oil" in at least two special factories
in Germany. Typical of many other American periodicals, the influential New
Republic reported in early 1943 that the Germans were "using the bodies of
their Jewish victims to make soap and fertilizer in a factory at Siedlce."

During June and July 1943, two prominent representatives of the Moscow-based
"Jewish Anti-Fascist Committee" toured the United States and raised more
than two million dollars for the Soviet war effort at a series of mass
meetings. At each of these rallies, Soviet Jewish leader Solomon Mikhoels
showed the crowd a bar of soap that he said was made from Jewish corpses.

After the war the soap story was given important legitimacy at the main
Nuremberg trial. L. N. Smirnov, Chief Counsellor of Justice for the USSR,
declared to the Tribunal:

     ... The same base, rationalized SS technical minds which created
     gas chambers and murder vans, began devising such methods of
     complete annihilation of human bodies, which would not only
     conceal the traces of their crimes, but also to serve in the
     manufacturing of certain products. In the Danzig Anatomical
     Institute, semi-industrial experiments in the production of soap
     from human bodies and the tanning of human skin for industrial
     purposes were carried out.

Smirnov quoted at length from an affidavit by Sigmund Mazur, an Institute
employee, which was accepted as Nuremberg exhibit USSR-197. It alleged that
Dr. Rudolf Spanner, the head of the Danzig Institute, had ordered the
production of soap from corpses in 1943. According to Mazur's affidavit, Dr.
Spanner's operation was of interest to high-ranking German officials.
Education Minister Bernhard Rust and Health Leader Dr. Leonardo Conti, as
well as professors from other medical institutes, came to witness Spanner's
efforts. Mazur also claimed to have used the "human soap" to wash himself
and his laundry.

A human soap "recipe," allegedly prepared by Dr. Spanner (Nuremberg document
USSR-196), was also presented. Finally, a sample of what was supposed to be
a piece of "human soap" was submitted to the Nuremberg Tribunal as exhibit
USSR-393.

In his closing address to the Tribunal, chief British prosecutor Sir Hartley
Shawcross echoed his Soviet colleague: "On occasion, even the bodies of
their victims were used to make good the wartime shortage of soap." And in
their final judgment, the Nuremberg Tribunal judges found that "attempts
were made to utilize the fat from the bodies of the victims in the
commercial manufacture of soap."

It is worth emphasizing here that the "evidence" presented at the Nuremberg
Tribunal for the bogus soap story was no less substantial than the
"evidence" presented for the claims of mass extermination in "gas chambers."
At least in the former case, an actual sample of soap supposedly made from
corpses was submitted in evidence.

After the war, supposed Holocaust victims were solemnly buried, in the form
of soap bars, in Jewish cemeteries. In 1948, for example, four such bars
wrapped in a funeral shroud were ceremoniously buried according to Jewish
religious ritual at the Haifa cemetery in Israel. Other bars of "Jewish
soap" have been displayed as grim Holocaust relics at the Jewish Historical
Institute in Warsaw, the Stutthof Museum near Gdansk (Danzig), the Yivo
Institute in New York, the Holocaust Museum in Philadelphia, the Jewish
Holocaust Centre in Melbourne (Australia), and at various locations in
Israel.

Numerous Jews who lived in German ghettos and camps during the war helped
keep the soap story alive many years later. Ben Edelbaum, for example, wrote
in his 1980 memoir Growing Up in the Holocaust:

     Often with our rations in the ghettos, the Germans had included a
     bar of soap branded with initials R.J.F. which came to be known as
     "RIF" soap. It wasn't until the war had ended that we learned the
     horrible truth about the bar of soap. Had we known in the ghetto,
     every bar of "RIF" soap would have been accorded a sacred Jewish
     funeral in the cemetery at Marysin. As it was, we were completely
     oblivious to its origin and used the bones and flesh of our
     murdered loved ones to wash our bodies.

Nesse Godin was transferred from a ghetto in Lithuania to the Stutthof
concentration camp in the spring of 1944. In a 1983 interview, she recalled
her arrival there:

     That day they gave us a shower and a piece of soap. After the war
     we found out the soap was made out of pure Jew fat, Rein Juden
     Fett, marked in the initials on the soap that I washed with. For
     all I know sometimes maybe there was a little bit of my father's
     fat in that soap that I washed with. How do you think I feel when
     I think about that?

Mel Mermelstein, the former Auschwitz inmate who was featured in the
sensationalized April 1991 cable television movie "Never Forget" (and who
sued the Institute for Historical Review and three other defendants for $11
million), declared in a 1981 sworn deposition that he and other camp inmates
used soap bars made from human fat. It was an "established fact," he
insisted, that the soap he washed with was made from Jewish bodies.

Renowned "Nazi hunter" Simon Wiesenthal repeated the soap tale in a series
of articles published in 1946 in the Austrian Jewish community paper Der
Neue Weg. In the first of these he wrote:

     During the last weeks of March the Romanian press reported an
     unusual piece of news: In the small Romanian city of Folticeni
     twenty boxes of soap were buried in the Jewish cemetery with full
     ceremony and complete funeral rites. This soap had been found
     recently in a former German army depot. On the boxes were the
     initials RIF, "Pure Jewish Fat." These boxes were destined for the
     Waffen-SS. The wrapping paper revealed with completely cynical
     objectivity that this soap was manufactured from Jewish bodies.
     Surprisingly, the thorough Germans forgot to describe whether the
     soap was produced from children, girls, men or elderly persons.

Wiesenthal went on:

     After 1942 people in the General Government [Poland] knew quite
     well what the RIF soap meant. The civilized world may not believe
     the joy with which the Nazis and their women in the General
     Government thought of this soap. In each piece of soap they saw a
     Jew who had been magically put there, and had thus been prevented
     from growing into a second Freud, Ehrlich or Einstein.

In another article he observed: "The production of soap from human fat is so
unbelievable that even some who were in concentration camps find it
difficult to comprehend."

Over the years, numerous supposedly reputable historians have promoted the
durable soap story. Journalist-historian William L. Shirer, for example,
repeated it in his best-selling work, The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich.

Leading Soviet war propagandist Ilya Ehrenburg wrote in his postwar memoir:
"I have held in my hand a cake of soap stamped with the legend 'pure Jewish
soap', prepared from the corpses of people who had been destroyed. But there
is no need to speak of these things: thousands of books have been written
about them."

A standard history studies textbook used in Canadian secondary schools,
Canada: The Twentieth Century, told students that the Germans "boiled" the
corpses of their Jewish victims "to make soap." The Anatomy of Nazism, a
booklet published and distributed by the Zionist "Anti-Defamation League" of
B'nai B'rith, stated: "The process of brutalization did not end with the
mass murders themselves. Large quantities of soap were manufactured from the
corpses of those murdered."

A detailed 1981 work, Hitler's Death Camps, repeated the soap story in lurid
detail. While noting that "some historians claim that the Nazi manufacture
of soap from human fat is just a grim rumor," author Konnilyn Feig
nevertheless accepted the story because "most East European camp scholars
... validate the soap stories, and other kinds of bars made from humans are
displayed in Eastern Europe -- I have seen many over the years."

New York Rabbi Arthur Schneier repeated the tale at the opening ceremony of
the largest Holocaust meeting in history. In his invocation to the "American
Gathering of Jewish Holocaust Survivors," held in Washington in April 1983,
the Rabbi solemnly declared: "We remember the bars of soap with the initials
RJF -- Rein jdisches Fett, Pure Jewish Fat -- made from the bodies of our
loved ones."

In spite of all the apparently impressive evidence, the charge that the
Germans manufactured soap from human beings is a falsehood, as Holocaust
historians are now belatedly acknowledging. The "RIF" soap bar initials that
supposedly stood for "Pure Jewish Fat" actually indicated nothing more
sinister than "Reich Center for Industrial Fat Provisioning" ("Reichsstelle
fr Industrielle Fettversorgung"), a German agency responsible for wartime
production and distribution of soap and washing products. RIF soap was a
poor quality substitute that contained no fat at all, human or otherwise.

Shortly after the war the public prosecutor's office of Flensburg, Germany,
began legal proceedings against Dr. Rudolf Spanner for his alleged role in
producing human soap at the Danzig Institute. But after an investigation the
charge was quietly dropped. In a January 1968 letter, the office stated that
its inquiry had determined that no soap from human corpses was made at the
Danzig Institute during the war.

More recently, Jewish historian Walter Laqueur "denied established history"
by acknowledging in his 1980 book, The Terrible Secret, that the human soap
story has no basis in reality. Gitta Sereny, another Jewish historian, noted
in her book Into That Darkness: "The universally accepted story that the
corpses were used to make soap and fertilizer is finally refuted by the
generally very reliable Ludwigsburg Central Authority for Investigation into
Nazi Crimes."

Deborah Lipstadt, a professor of modern Jewish history, similarly "rewrote
history" when she confirmed in 1981: "The fact is that the Nazis never used
the bodies of Jews, or for that matter anyone else, for the production of
soap."

In April 1990, professor Yehuda Bauer of Israel's Hebrew University,
regarded as a leading Holocaust historian, as well as Shmuel Krakowski,
archives director of Israel's Yad Vashem Holocaust center, confirmed that
the human soap story is not true. Camp inmates "were prepared to believe any
horror stories about their persecutors," Bauer said. At the same time,
though, he had the chutzpah to blame the legend on "the Nazis."

In fact, blame for the soap story lies rather with individuals such as Simon
Wiesenthal and Stephen Wise, organizations like the World Jewish Congress,
and the victorious Allied powers, none of whom has ever apologized for
promoting this vile falsehood.

Why did Bauer and Krakowski decide that this was the appropriate time to
officially abandon the soap story? Krakowski himself hints that a large part
of the motivation for this "tactical retreat" has been to save what's left
of the sinking Holocaust ship by throwing overboard the most obvious
falsehoods. In the face of the growing Revisionist challenge, easily
demonstrable falsehoods like the soap story have become dangerous
embarrassments because they raise doubts about the entire Holocaust legend.
As Krakowski put it: "Historians have concluded that soap was not made from
human fat. When so many people deny the Holocaust ever happened, why give
them something to use against the truth?"

The bad faith of those making this calculated and belated concession to
truth is shown by their failure to note that the soap myth was
authoritatively "confirmed" at Nuremberg, and by their unwillingness to deal
with the implications of that confirmation for the credibility of the
Tribunal and other supposedly trustworthy authorities in establishing other,
more fundamental aspects of the Holocaust story.

The striking contrast between the prompt postwar disavowal by the British
government of the infamous "human soap" lie of the First World War, and the
way in which a similarly baseless propaganda story from the Second World War
was officially endorsed by the victorious Allied powers and then
authoritatively maintained for so many years not only points up the
dispiriting lack of integrity on the part of so many Western historians, but
underscores the general decline in Western ethical standards during this
century.

The "human soap" story demonstrates anew the tremendous impact that a
wartime rumor, no matter how fantastic, can have once it has taken hold,
particularly when it is disseminated as a propaganda lie by influential
individuals and powerful organizations. That so many intelligent and
otherwise thoughtful people could ever have seriously believed that the
Germans distributed bars of soap brazenly labeled with letters indicating
that they were manufactured from Jewish corpses shows how readily even the
most absurd Holocaust fables can be -- and are -- accepted as fact.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark Weber is editor of The Journal of Historical Review, published six
times yearly by the Institute for Historical Review. He studied history at
the University of Illinois (Chicago), the University of Munich, Portland
State University, and Indiana University (M.A., 1977). For five days in
March 1988, he testified as a recognized expert witness on the "final
solution" and the Holocaust issue in a Toronto District Court case. He is
the author of many published articles, reviews and essays on various aspects
of modern European history. Weber has appeared as a guest on numerous radio
talk shows, and on the nationally-syndicated "Montel Williams" television
show.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
For a current catalog, with a complete listing of books and audio and video
tapes, send one dollar to:

Institute For Historical Review
Post Office Box 2739
Newport Beach, California 92659
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Send all questions and comments to ihrgreg@kaiwan.com

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From ihrgreg@kaiwan.com Thu Oct 31 06:50:25 PST 1996
Article: 77898 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.nstn.ca!coranto.ucs.mun.ca!news.unb.ca!news.uoregon.edu!kaiwan.kaiwan.com!usenet
From: Greg Raven 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Hoess Testimony BITES THE DUST!!!!
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 07:01:28 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 69
Message-ID: <32761C48.1666@kaiwan.com>
References: <54akkc$1q3e$2@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net><54akkc$1q3e$2@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net> <54qf9v$2ml@juliana.sprynet.com> <54rrl4$2lbs$2@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net><54akkc$1q3e$2@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net><54akkc$1q3e$2@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net> <54qf9v$2ml@juliana.sprynet.com> <54rrl4$2lbs$2@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net> <54spvq$3d7@is05.micron.net> <550hd9$2iti$3@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net><54akkc$1q3e$2@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net><54akkc$1q3e$2@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net> <54qf9v$2ml@juliana.sprynet.com> <54rrl4$2lbs$2@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net><54akkc$1q3e$2@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net><54akkc$1q3e$2@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net> <54qf9v$2ml@juliana.sprynet.com> <54rrl4$2lbs$2@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net> <54spvq$3d7@is05.micron.net> <550hd9$2iti$3@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <3273D8F3.6595@kaiwan.com> <553ukv$trm$2@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net> 
Reply-To: ihrgreg@kaiwan.com
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To: Mark Van Alstine 

Mark Van Alstine wrote:
> Oh, Mr. Raven is talking about ONE paragraph on page 38 of _Death Dealer_
> that reads:
> 
> < begin quote>
> 
> "Jews who were taken to the camp by order of Eichmann's office- RSHA IV B4
> -were designated as "Transport-Juden." The reports that announced the
> arrival had the following notice: "This transport is to be included in the
> given orders and is subject to special treatment [Sonderbehandlung - SB]."
> The Jews previous to this, i.e. before the orders for extermination were
> issueed, were labled "Schutzhaft [protective custody], or Jews who
> belonged to one of the other catagories of prisoners.
> 
> 

I think this is an important paragraph. Apparently, others did, too, as
it does not appear in other supposedly scholarly versions of Hoess'
writings.

> Of course, my copy of _KL Auschwitz_, on page 123, reads:
> 
> 
> 
> "Transport Juden" (Jews from transports), thus had all Jews been
> designated who were taken to the camp from Eichmann's Office - RSHA IV B4.
> The reports announcing the arrival bore the notice: "Thr transports
> corrospoonds [sic] to the given instructions and is to be subjected to
> special treatment (Sonderbehandling - SB)!" All other Jews of earlier
> times, that is before the extermination orders were given, were called
> "Schutzhaft Juden" (Jews in protective custody) or Jews belonging to other
> catagories of prisoners."
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sure Mr. Raven was _trying_ his best to make a point here. Maybe he
> was trying to point out that Jews transported by Eichman's department,
> RSHA IV B4, were designated as "subject to special treatment" and sent to
> Auschwitz to be murdered? And that the Soviet/Bolshevik/Jewish World
> Konspiracy supressed this "vital" paragraph to decieve the world and hide
> the fact that the Nazis were brutal cold-blooded murderers who
> methodically shipped Jews to their deaths with clockwork precision?
> 
> Er, what's wrong with this picture?  };->
> 
> Mark

I'm glad you asked.

Although Höss attached no date to this shift in policy, it clearly
contradicts his characterization of a supposedly secret meeting in
Berlin with Heinrich Himmler in the summer of 1941. At this meeting,
Himmler allegedly assigned Höss a key role in the forthcoming mass
extermination of the Jews, with more details soon to come from Adolf
Eichmann, at that time an SS Major of the Reich Security Police (RSHA),
in charge of the office dealing with Jewish affairs. Höss claimed that
Eichmann visited him at Auschwitz a short time later, and the two of
them spoke of the approximate numbers of Jews to be exterminated, how to
carry out the extermination, and where the first exterminations were to
be performed (a building that is now referred to as Bunker 1). Höss
further claimed that the first transports of Jews to be exterminated
arrived sometime between September 1941 and January 1942, and were
immediately gassed. This discrepancy may explain the omission of the
passage from other editions of the memoirs.

-- 
Greg Raven (ihrgreg@kaiwan.com)
PO Box 10545, Costa Mesa, CA 92627
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg


From ihrgreg@kaiwan.com Thu Oct 31 06:50:26 PST 1996
Article: 77912 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!n1van.istar!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.uoregon.edu!kaiwan.kaiwan.com!usenet
From: Greg Raven 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hoess Memoirs
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 06:51:38 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <327619FB.6B43@kaiwan.com>
References: <325d7e83.4204398@news.inetport.com> <53da2h$d7q@juliana.sprynet.com> <325e6c0e.2929082@news.inetport.com>  <53jh0r$934@is05.micron.net>  <53ptgp$pc6@is05.micron.net>  <541e28$hqp@is05.micron.net>  <5425on$j5t@is05.micron.net>  <32738DF8.E0C@kaiwan.com> <32780c9b.81265917@news.zilker.net>
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To: Mike Curtis 

Mike Curtis wrote:
> 
> Greg Raven  wrote:
> 
> >
> >This response ignores the fact that the Allies were intercepting Nazi
> >communications from Auschwitz (and elsewhere), and so compiled their own
> >reports that the Nazis could not have destroyed. These reports do not
> >show massive numbers of Jews (or anyone else) being murdered at
> >Auschwitz or elsewhere.
> >
> 
> Is this one of your stop overs to sell books and other material? I
> notice that you drop by here and make unsupported statements and then
> when cornered you vanish. Thre months later  you return after the
> memory cells of your cohorts have burned out you start over.
> Fascinating, Mr. Raven.

Thanks for engaging in another personal attack, instead of dealing with
the issues. For better or worse, I don't have the time to devote to
a.r., unlike some of you. Furthermore, there seems to be something wrong
with the delivery of news at my ISP, as it sometimes takes 5 minutes to
post a single message. It is often more trouble than it is worth.

If, on the other hand, the above message was simply your way of asking
for a citation, I direct you to "The Hoax of the Twentieth Century," by
Arthur Butz.

-- 
Greg Raven (ihrgreg@kaiwan.com)
PO Box 10545, Costa Mesa, CA 92627
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg



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