The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/r/raven.greg/1996/raven.0196


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Jan  6 11:31:08 PST 1996
Article: 19032 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Auschwitz: a counter FAQ
Date: Sat, 06 Jan 1996 15:00:36 GMT
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ihrgreg@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) wrote:


	I would think that the deadly nature of the Zyklone B form found at
any camps would be expressed in the packaging that it was shipped in.
The only examples I have seen are those small card board or tin
cylinders. Not that it can't be deadly, but it seems that a good dose
under a certain duration would be required.
	Were there any other packagings that it came in or were alleged to
have come in? I would think if it was intended to be used in mass
gassing of human beings, it would have been shipped in larger
containers that could be readily adapted to any introduction system.
	What process is stated to have been used to transform it into gas? The
extent of my resaerch has not turned up any answers to this yet.

	One fact mutually accepted by both camps of debating the Holocaust is
that it was used to ward off typhus inflicting parasites. In other
words, a vital necessity.



From bharmon@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca Sat Jan  6 16:56:55 PST 1996
Article: 19041 of alt.revisionism
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From: bharmon@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Brian Harmon)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Auschwitz: a counter FAQ
Date: 6 Jan 1996 14:36:42 -0800
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> ihrgreg@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) wrote:
 
[ I'm assuming Tom Moran wrote the text below, 
  and not Greg Raven, as Moran's botched attribution
  suggests.]

>        I would think that the deadly nature of the Zyklone B form found at
> any camps would be expressed in the packaging that it was shipped in.

Not quite sure what you're asking here.  Are you saying 
that tins of Zyklon would have a large warning label on them?
[hint: they did -- the words GiftGas means deadly gas]

Or are you saying that a sealed metal tin is not a 
safe enough package to ship Zyklon B in?  nad if so,
what makes you think the packaging was insufficient?

> The only examples I have seen are those small card board or tin
> cylinders. Not that it can't be deadly, but it seems that a good dose
> under a certain duration would be required.

Er, ?!?!?!

I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say here.

Are yo suggesting that a leak from a can of zyklon B is 
only deadly after a certain exposure?>

[if yes, well..duh you have to be exposed tobe poisoned.]

>        Were there any other packagings that it came in or were alleged to
> gassing of human beings, it would have been shipped in larger
> containers that could be readily adapted to any introduction system.

wll, what makes you think the stardard can package 
was _not_ 'readily adapted' to an introduction system?

This is all speculation on your part. 

>        What process is stated to have been used to transform it into gas? The
> extent of my resaerch has not turned up any answers to this yet.

Well, if you read the Degesch manual, it describes
how the gas will evaporate right off the carrier.

For example, when fumigating a building, one opens the containers
and spreads the carrier on the floor.  The, HCN being very 
volatile, simple evaporates off the carrier.

Brian Harmon
bharmon@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca
      


From mgiwer@combase.com Sun Jan  7 10:02:34 PST 1996
Article: 19098 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@combase.com (Matt Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Does HCN have evil intelligence?
Date: 7 Jan 1996 06:15:30 GMT
Organization: Images Incarnate
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In article <4cip16$vp6@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca>, jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) says:
>
>mgiwer@combase.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>
>>In article <4cgirv$mfb@access2.digex.net>, mstein@access2.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) says:
>>>
>>>In article ,
>>>Greg Raven  wrote:
>>>>You also have to account for the fact that there is still HCN gassing off
>>>>of the Zyklon B, as it will for hours.
>>>
>>>    *sigh* I wish Mr. Raven would read the discussion more carefully. 
>>>Right now we're talking about Kremas II and III, with ventilation fans and
>>>"wire mesh introduction devices" which, it has been testified, allowed the
>>>withdrawal of the Zyklon.  I eagerly await Mr. Raven's explanation of how
>>>Zyklon which has been removed from a chamber can continue to emit gas into
>>>the chamber for hours. 
>
>>       Ventilation fans would not remove the outgassing pellets.  Enough throughput
>>of air would only dilute it.  If the pellets were physically removed they would still
>>be releasing gas for some time depending upon the temperature.
>
>And?
>
>What percentage of the gas would have been released in the half hour
>that most witnesses said elapsed between the time the gas was
>introduced and the time that the ventilation fans were turned on?

	That would be a function of temperature of course.

>Documents indicate that wire mesh introduction columns were devised
>for Krema II to remove the remaining pellets when the fans were turned
>on. Of the remaining amount, how long would it outgas, and what would
>be its effect in the open air?

	I am not familiar with these new documents.  I am familiar with 
assertions as recently as two years ago that anyone questioning the poured
in through a hole in the roof story was considered antisemitic.  There were
no wire mesh devices back then.

>These are the questions which I gather the regular participants in
>this thread are trying to determine. I am mostly lurking on this
>thread because I do not know the answers to these questions. Do you
>know the answers?

	As to the degassing time, again, that is temperature dependent, so 
there is no one answer.  I have read but can not directly confirm that the
delousing use required 24 hours for safety.


---------------------------------------------------------------
              http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/
politics, humor, Waco documents, documents of the United States
Maintaining http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/tech/
            http://www2.combase.com/~matt/


From ihrgreg@kaiwan.com Sun Jan  7 20:16:21 PST 1996
Article: 19196 of alt.revisionism
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From: ihrgreg@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Auschwitz: a counter FAQ
Date: 4 Jan 1996 05:48:50 GMT
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 66
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In article , dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
wrote:

> Yet again, it has to be pointed out that HCN was routinely used
> for fumigation of ships, buildings, etc. If it had all these
> strange properties "revisionists" claim it has - like "sticking
> onto surfaces" or whatever - it would have posed the same dangers
> that "revisionists" claim it posed when used for homicidal gassing,
> and would not have been used for all these other purposes.

The information missing from this passage is that when Zyklon B is used to
fumigate ships and buildings, the procedure takes many hours -- sometimes
days, depending on the temperature. One of the reasons is that when the
HCN gas from Zyklon B condenses, it exhibits a strong affinity for
surfaces, especially wet surfaces. Also, while HCN is an effective
fumigant, it is also deadly for a couple of reasons, one of them being its
volatility. The whole point of Zyklon B is that the HCN is carried in an
inert material, which causes it to gas off much more slowly than it would
as a liquid. This single characteristic makes it virtually impossible for
homicidal gassings, using Zyklon B, to have taken place as they are
alleged to have taken place. In California, where HCN is used in prison
gas chambers, a MUCH more potent HCN generator is placed directly beneath
the chair of the condemned man, and it still takes eight minutes or more
before the person to die. With the slower gassing off of Zyklon B, 1)
there would not be enough poison gas after 15 or 20 minutes to kill
everyone in the room, as has been claimed, and 2) the Zyklon B would still
be gassing off while the workers came in to remove the supposedly dead
bodies.

> This is, possibly, the most stupid of the "revisionist science"
> arguments. Zyklon-B and HCN *were* easy to use, and *did not*
> pose any serious danger to the SS staff. All these "problems" 
> they point out would have made the use of HCN for other purposes,
> such as delousing, as "problematic" as homicidal gassing. But,
> once again, it *was* extensively used for other purposes
> which, technically, were strikingly similar to homicidal
> gassing.

Here, a comparison is being made between the KNOWN procedure for
fumigation and the ALLEGED procedure for homicidal gassing, both using
Zyklon B. For the reasons I have given above, and for others, the two
simply cannot be equated in such a fashion.

> One last time, with the hope that this will finally be clear.
> Technically, there is hardly a difference between homicidal
> gassing and delousing clothes, fumigating barracks etc. The 
> only difference is that in homicidal gassing, one has to insert the
> Zyklon from the outside (very easy) and reinforce the door,
> so the victims would not be able to break it (very easy).
> Since delousing didn't pose any of the problems the "revisionists"
> mention, nor did homicidal gassing. Case closed. 

There is a VAST difference between fumigation and mass homicide using
Zyklon B. For fumigation, you tape over cracks to seal the room for up to
three days. You don't need to worry about the lice and other varmints
attempting to break out. For a homicidal gassing, you have to to much,
much more. Reinforcing the door does little good when there are windows
available, as there are in some of the so-called "gas chambers" shown to
tourists at the so-called "death camps." Finally, it is neither kind nor
thoughtful to suggest that Jews and lice are somehow equal when it comes
to death by HCN gas.

-- 
Greg Raven
ihrgreg@kaiwan.com
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg


From jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca Thu Jan 11 01:12:58 PST 1996
Article: 19560 of alt.revisionism
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From: jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Does HCN have evil intelligence?
Date: Fri, 05 Jan 1996 09:04:21 GMT
Organization: University of Alberta
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mgiwer@combase.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>In article <4cgirv$mfb@access2.digex.net>, mstein@access2.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) says:
>>
>>In article ,
>>Greg Raven  wrote:
>>>You also have to account for the fact that there is still HCN gassing off
>>>of the Zyklon B, as it will for hours.
>>
>>    *sigh* I wish Mr. Raven would read the discussion more carefully. 
>>Right now we're talking about Kremas II and III, with ventilation fans and
>>"wire mesh introduction devices" which, it has been testified, allowed the
>>withdrawal of the Zyklon.  I eagerly await Mr. Raven's explanation of how
>>Zyklon which has been removed from a chamber can continue to emit gas into
>>the chamber for hours. 

>	Ventilation fans would not remove the outgassing pellets.  Enough throughput
>of air would only dilute it.  If the pellets were physically removed they would still
>be releasing gas for some time depending upon the temperature.

And?

What percentage of the gas would have been released in the half hour
that most witnesses said elapsed between the time the gas was
introduced and the time that the ventilation fans were turned on?
Documents indicate that wire mesh introduction columns were devised
for Krema II to remove the remaining pellets when the fans were turned
on. Of the remaining amount, how long would it outgas, and what would
be its effect in the open air?

These are the questions which I gather the regular participants in
this thread are trying to determine. I am mostly lurking on this
thread because I do not know the answers to these questions. Do you
know the answers?

I don't mean to flame you out of the discussion, it is just that no
resolution has been reached in the many times that the discussion has
started. I was rather hoping that if the discussion was kept focussed
by people who knew what they were talking about that we might actually
see some progress.

I will not have access to Usenet for about a week. I would appreciate
e-mail courtesy copies of any replies.

--
 John Morris                               
 at University of Alberta     
------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
 The Nizkor Project: An Electronic Holocaust Resource
  File archives - ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca
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From ihrgreg@kaiwan.com Tue Jan 23 10:57:11 PST 1996
Article: 21068 of alt.revisionism
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From: Greg Raven 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Simon Wiesenthal: Fraudulent 'Nazi Hunter'
Date: 23 Jan 1996 06:12:11 GMT
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
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X-URL: http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg/jhr/v15n4p-8_Weber.html

http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg/jhr/v15n4p-8_Weber.html

For those who can't believe that the esteemed Simon Wiesenthal Center, 
named after the esteemed "Nazi hunter" Simon Wiesenthal, is a source for 
such hate, bigotry, intolerance, and lies, it will be instructive to 
take a look behind the scenes at Mr. Wiesenthal himself. Perhaps it is 
true, as they say, that the acorn does not fall far from the tree.

This article, by IHR editor Mark Weber, can be found at the Web address 
above. Those without Web access can e-mail me for a copy.

---

Greg Raven (ihrgreg@kaiwan.com)
PO Box 10024, Costa Mesa, CA 92627
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg




From ihrgreg@kaiwan.com Tue Jan 23 10:57:13 PST 1996
Article: 21073 of alt.revisionism
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From: Greg Raven 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: An Overview of The Simon Wiesenthal Center
Date: 23 Jan 1996 06:05:51 GMT
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
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http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg/jhr/v15n4p-2_Weber.html

With all the attention the Simon Wiesenthal Center has received due its 
stand against "hate" on the Internet, it may be instructive to take a 
moment to look at those who would attempt to circumvent the principle of 
freedom of speech, to see if they have a hidden agenda.

This article by IHR editor Mark Weber, which can be found at the Web 
address shown above, provides a look at the Simon Wiesenthal Center that 
should raise some questions about just what the they are really after.

(Those without Web access can e-mail me for a copy of this article.)

---

Greg Raven (ihrgreg@kaiwan.com)
PO Box 10024, Costa Mesa, CA 92627
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg




From ihrgreg@kaiwan.com Thu Jan 25 08:59:05 PST 1996
Article: 21308 of alt.revisionism
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From: Greg Raven 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Graves: I'm Not a Nazi
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 22:27:27 +0000
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <3106B24F.7E8@kaiwan.com>
References: <4aajs1$6jl@news3.cts.com>  <4b7io0$13g@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <30D90862.60CE@aimnet.com> <4bc8n6$3u5@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <30DB3FA5.4570@aimnet.com> <4bi9kf$2fjc@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <30DD44B2.2D48@aimnet.co <4cgl61$cgq@tst.hk.super.net>   <30EF0E45.15DD@aimnet.com> <4crk1o$9u4@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>  <30F4D811.36F9@aimnet.com> <4dgm2l$eaa@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA> <30FE4D43.49AB@aimnet.com> <4domvs$f53@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA> <31026A69.4408@aimnet.com>  <310568B7.6D23@aimnet.com>  <31065354.18B7@aimnet.com>
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George Graves wrote:
> 
> Mark Van Alstine wrote:
> > Here you evidence support for the laws that Nazis contrived to persecute
> > (and later murder) the Jews under. You "ignore" that these laws were
> > _unjust_ by any standards held by Western Civilization. You evidence
> > belief that the _Jews_ were at fault for "breaking" Nazi "laws" that were
> > _designed_ to be "broken" by the Jews without their complicity. That is
> > why you make people, or me at least, want to vomit: Your insane
> > rationalizations are sickening.

Could you be a little more specific? To which laws are you referring? If you are referring to the Nuremberg laws 
against intermarriage, you should explain why it was wrong for the Nazis to want these laws when Jewish leaders 
also wanted these same laws to prevent Jewish assimilation.

If you are talking about Nazi laws against partisan activity (sabotage, etc.), then you must explain why it was 
okay for Jews to engage in sabotage and subversive activities in a country at war. (You are, of course, familiar 
with the fact that some Jews such as writer William Ziff bragged that Jews were the leaders of anti-Nazi partisan 
activities throughout the war? See the May / June 1995 issue of The Journal of Historical Review for details.)

-- 
Greg Raven (ihrgreg@kaiwan.com)
PO Box 10545, Costa Mesa, CA 92627
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg


From ihrgreg@kaiwan.com Thu Jan 25 12:42:13 PST 1996
Article: 21308 of alt.revisionism
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From: Greg Raven 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Graves: I'm Not a Nazi
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 22:27:27 +0000
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <3106B24F.7E8@kaiwan.com>
References: <4aajs1$6jl@news3.cts.com>  <4b7io0$13g@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <30D90862.60CE@aimnet.com> <4bc8n6$3u5@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <30DB3FA5.4570@aimnet.com> <4bi9kf$2fjc@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <30DD44B2.2D48@aimnet.co <4cgl61$cgq@tst.hk.super.net>   <30EF0E45.15DD@aimnet.com> <4crk1o$9u4@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>  <30F4D811.36F9@aimnet.com> <4dgm2l$eaa@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA> <30FE4D43.49AB@aimnet.com> <4domvs$f53@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA> <31026A69.4408@aimnet.com>  <310568B7.6D23@aimnet.com>  <31065354.18B7@aimnet.com>
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George Graves wrote:
> 
> Mark Van Alstine wrote:
> > Here you evidence support for the laws that Nazis contrived to persecute
> > (and later murder) the Jews under. You "ignore" that these laws were
> > _unjust_ by any standards held by Western Civilization. You evidence
> > belief that the _Jews_ were at fault for "breaking" Nazi "laws" that were
> > _designed_ to be "broken" by the Jews without their complicity. That is
> > why you make people, or me at least, want to vomit: Your insane
> > rationalizations are sickening.

Could you be a little more specific? To which laws are you referring? If you are referring to the Nuremberg laws 
against intermarriage, you should explain why it was wrong for the Nazis to want these laws when Jewish leaders 
also wanted these same laws to prevent Jewish assimilation.

If you are talking about Nazi laws against partisan activity (sabotage, etc.), then you must explain why it was 
okay for Jews to engage in sabotage and subversive activities in a country at war. (You are, of course, familiar 
with the fact that some Jews such as writer William Ziff bragged that Jews were the leaders of anti-Nazi partisan 
activities throughout the war? See the May / June 1995 issue of The Journal of Historical Review for details.)

-- 
Greg Raven (ihrgreg@kaiwan.com)
PO Box 10545, Costa Mesa, CA 92627
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg


From ihrgreg@kaiwan.com Sat Jan 27 21:29:32 PST 1996
Article: 21577 of alt.revisionism
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From: Greg Raven 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Graves Beats a Dead Horse
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 17:39:53 +0000
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 135
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Mark Van Alstine wrote:
> 
> >Subject:     Re: Graves Beats a Dead Horse
> >Sent:        01/26  9:15 AM
> >Mark Van Alstine wrote:
> >> In article <3106B24F.7E8@kaiwan.com>, ihrgreg@kaiwan.com wrote:
> >>
> >> > Could you be a little more specific? To which laws are you referring?
> >> > If you are referring to the Nuremberg laws against intermarriage, you
> >> > should explain  why it was wrong for the Nazis to want these laws when
> Jewish
> >> > leaders also wanted these same laws to prevent Jewish assimilation.
> >>
> >> Do you offer proof that Jewish leaders _did_ approve of the Nuremburg
> >> Laws? Which Jewish leaders? Did Jews in general also approve of the
> >> Nuremburg Laws? Where the Jews consulted, regarding any concerns- and
> >> their equitable solution -by the Nazis in the formation of the laws?
> >
> >If I do offer proof, will that change your mind?
> 
> Depends on the proof, Mr. Raven.

On page 111 of Flashpoint, author Ingrid Weckert writes:

"The Nuremberg "Law for the Protection of German Blood and German Honor" corresponded, 
even when it was proclaimed, to analagous Hebraic religious commandments, according to 
which a Jew is forbidden to marry a non-Jew. That, too, naturally, is part of Israeli law. 
No Jew can marry a non-Jew...."

Mark Weber also writes about this from a Zionist point of view (not all Jews were Zionists 
in those days, of course), in his article Zionism and the Third Reich, in the Journal of 
Historical Review, July/August 1993.

> >As for whether Jews in general approved, that is an unanswerable, but largely
> moot,
> >question. No one in power deals with the wishes of everyone, just as Clinton
> does
> >not consult with me to see if I approve of his policies and actions. He
> >deals with people who supposedly represent me.
> 
> But, Mr. Raven, as you, presumably, are a legal citizen of the United
> States with the right to vote (and to excercise that vote), you cannot
> plead being disenfranchised from the political process. Nor have you been
> singled out and been made an object of persecution by the government for
> your ethnicity and/or religious and/or poitical beliefs. That is a quite
> different situation to that of the Jews and other people (i.e.
> Communists, Socialists, Jehovah Witnesses, and homosexuals, etc.) were in
> Nazi Germany.

Your point is still invalid. Assuming a scenario in which Jews could vote on matters such 
as this in the Third Reich, there were so few of them that they could not have voted down 
such a law, even if every Jew were to vote against it, which they apparently would not 
have. 

> >> And, of course, the Nuremburg Laws encompassed more than just
> >> intermarriage between "Ayrans" and Jews. The also codified the racial
> >> catagories by which a person was classified Jewish or not. A system of
> >> classification that was used to aid in the discrimination, then
> >> persecution, and finally the mass-murder of Jews. Do you _also_ assert
> >> that Jewish leaders supported this? That Jews in general did?
> >
> >The Nuremberg Laws had nothing to do with mass murder. I defy you to
> >find anything in the Nuremberg laws that describes and/or sets forth
> >extermination for Jews.
> 
> Perhaps, Mr.Raven, you will study what I said more carefully? I did not
> make the claim, as you imply, that the Nuremburg Laws described or set
> forth explicit protocols calling for the extermination of the Jews. What
> I said was that the Nuremburg Laws, because they codified the racial
> catagories by which a person was classified as being Jewish, _aided_ in
> the eventual attempt to exterminate the Jews. If the Nazis could not have
> determined who was and was not Jewish they could not have carried out
> their Final Solution to the Jewish Question in the manner they did. As
> the Nuremburg Laws _did_ let the Nazis determine who was or was not
> Jewish, said laws facillitated their efforts to exterminate the Jews.

Perhaps I am being overly sensitive here, but I tend to be very suspicious of statements 
that go in one grand sweep from the known to the unknown, presenting the unknown as if it 
were the logical, inevitable, and therefore real outcome of the known. As I question the 
extermination of the Jews by the Nazis, likewise I question your implication that the 
racial/religious classifications set forth in the Nuremberg laws lead to genocide.

> >> > (You are, of course, familiar with the fact that some Jews such as writer
> >> > William Ziff bragged that Jews were the leaders of anti-Nazi partisan
> >> > activities throughout the war? See the May / June 1995 issue of The
> >> Journal of
> >> > Historical Review for details.)
> >>
> >> Yes, Mr. Raven, I am aware that various people of Jewish ethnicity, just
> >> as various Poles and Yugoslavs of Slavic ethnicity, etc., were members of
> >> resistance movements. Are you asserting that this was justification for
> >> the wholesale slaughter of Jews, Poles, Yugoslavs, etc. that were _not_
> >> members of the resistance movements?
> >>
> >> What is your point here, Mr. Raven?
> >
> >My point is that you originally seemed to be implying that all Jews who
> >died during the reign of the Third Reich were blameless innocents who
> >otherwise would have survived, no matter what their age, health,
> >occupation, etc.
> 
> No, Mr. Raven, that was not my point, that is _your_ projection onto my
> words. My point was, and is, that _innocent_ people, simply because they
> were catagorized under the color of laws _designed_ to disenfranchize
> them politically, economically, and of their rights and freedoms. Because
> of this they were _unjustly_ discriminated against, persecuted, and
> finally murdered under the color of those unjust laws.

Again, you are sweeping from the known -- the discrimination against the Jews -- to 
extermination. The two are not equal, and one does not lead to the other.

> >> Will you, Mr. Raven, also assert that such attrocities as inflicted on the
> >> innocent civilians in the German occupied countries was _not_ a violation
> >> of the  Hague and Geneva conventions to which Germany was a signatory?
> >> That such violations of the Germans' obligations to the civilian
> >> populations in those countries were not plainly war crimes?
> >>
> >> I look forward to your prompt and detailed answers, Mr. Raven.
> >
> >It depends. In those areas where Germany was fighting against countries
> >that were NOT signatories to these Conventions, then no, they were not
> >war crimes. War crimes were, of course, committed by all participants in
> >WWII.
> 
> No, Mr. Raven, that is not how the treaty process works. As Germany was a
> signatory to those treaties, it was required to abide by them irregardless.

Even though its enemy, the Soviet Union, was NOT a signatory, and made it very clear that 
they would fight as dirty a war as they possibly could? 

--

Greg Raven (ihrgreg@kaiwan.com)
Institute for Historical Review, PO Box 2739, Newport Beach, CA 92659
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg


From ihrgreg@kaiwan.com Sat Jan 27 21:29:39 PST 1996
Article: 21609 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.kei.com!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!news.tc.cornell.edu!newsserver.sdsc.edu!acsc.com!kaiwan.kaiwan.com!usenet
From: Greg Raven 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads,soc.culture.canada,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.censorship,alt.discrimination
Subject: Re: Eleven Questions for Les Griswold (Two New Questions!, Round 1)
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 23:14:08 +0000
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <31096040.7487@kaiwan.com>
References: <4dtdcl$pkc@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
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Ken McVay OBC wrote:
> 
> Mr. Griswold,
> Question One                                     [January, 1995]
> ------------
> 
>    (I have omitted the background data here, as this specific issue
>    is dealt with extensively in another regular post.*)
> 
>    A. How many Natives were there on the North American
>       continent prior to the arrival of the white man?
>    B. How many are there now?
> 

For the sake of the question, does it matter whether or not the natives 
moved to Central America? In other words, are you implying genocide or 
are you implying a combination of genocide and dispossession?

-- 
Greg Raven (ihrgreg@kaiwan.com)
PO Box 10545, Costa Mesa, CA 92627
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg


From ihrgreg@kaiwan.com Sat Jan 27 21:29:40 PST 1996
Article: 21610 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.kei.com!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!news.tc.cornell.edu!newsserver.sdsc.edu!acsc.com!kaiwan.kaiwan.com!usenet
From: Greg Raven 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads,soc.culture.canada,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.censorship,alt.discrimination
Subject: Re: Eleven Questions for Les Griswold (Two New Questions!, Round 1)
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 23:15:13 +0000
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <31096081.70E7@kaiwan.com>
References: <4dtdcl$pkc@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
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Ken McVay OBC wrote:
> 
> Mr. Griswold,
> Question One                                     [January, 1995]
> ------------
> 
>    (I have omitted the background data here, as this specific issue
>    is dealt with extensively in another regular post.*)
> 
>    A. How many Natives were there on the North American
>       continent prior to the arrival of the white man?
>    B. How many are there now?
> 

For the sake of the question, does it matter whether or not the natives 
moved to Central America? In other words, does your question deal with 
genocide only or are you implying a combination of genocide and 
dispossession, or any you implying dispossession only?

-- 
Greg Raven (ihrgreg@kaiwan.com)
PO Box 10545, Costa Mesa, CA 92627
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg


From ihrgreg@kaiwan.com Sat Jan 27 21:29:42 PST 1996
Article: 21614 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!daver!UB.com!kaiwan.kaiwan.com!usenet
From: Greg Raven 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism,alt.discrimination
Subject: Re: Brain Size
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 23:37:59 +0000
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <310965D7.610C@kaiwan.com>
References: <822339972snz@augur.demon.co.uk>  <3106fc56.7824451@nntp.ix.netcom.com> 
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Fran Siegal wrote:
> > >I can already hear the loony-tunes howling about it, but try
> > >Stephen J Gould's _The Mismeasure of Man_ for an analysis of how the
> > >scientists involved allowed their own expectations to colour the results
> > >that they saw.
> 
> Both Gould and Lewontin, who are at Harvard, are admitted Marxists.
> 
> Therefore they feel committed to place an emphasis on man's susceptibility
> to environmental (economic ) influences.

I would be very surprized if Gould would publicly affirm his support for his earlier positions on race, 
as delineated in The Mismeasure of Man.

-- 
Greg Raven (ihrgreg@kaiwan.com)
PO Box 10545, Costa Mesa, CA 92627
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg


From ihrgreg@kaiwan.com Sat Jan 27 21:29:43 PST 1996
Article: 21615 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!daver!UB.com!kaiwan.kaiwan.com!usenet
From: Greg Raven 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism,alt.discrimination
Subject: Re: Brain Size
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 23:39:21 +0000
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <31096629.945@kaiwan.com>
References: <822339972snz@augur.demon.co.uk>  <3106fc56.7824451@nntp.ix.netcom.com> 
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Fran Siegal wrote:
> > >I can already hear the loony-tunes howling about it, but try
> > >Stephen J Gould's _The Mismeasure of Man_ for an analysis of how the
> > >scientists involved allowed their own expectations to colour the results
> > >that they saw.
> 
> Both Gould and Lewontin, who are at Harvard, are admitted Marxists.
> 
> Therefore they feel committed to place an emphasis on man's susceptibility
> to environmental (economic ) influences.

I would be very surprized if Gould would now publicly affirm his support for his earlier positions on 
race, as delineated in The Mismeasure of Man. That is to say, I would be very surprized if his private 
views have not changed to the point where he no longer will affirm his previously-expressed beliefs on 
this matter.

-- 
Greg Raven (ihrgreg@kaiwan.com)
PO Box 10545, Costa Mesa, CA 92627
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg


From ihrgreg@kaiwan.com Sat Jan 27 21:29:44 PST 1996
Article: 21616 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!daver!UB.com!kaiwan.kaiwan.com!usenet
From: Greg Raven 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A FRIENDLY ADDRESS TO ALL AMERICANS?
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 23:34:33 +0000
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <31096509.3ABD@kaiwan.com>
References: <329541457wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk> <4e9js0$76t@news.enter.net>
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Yale F. Edeiken wrote:
> 
> >   Jeff  delivers the usual denier whine:
> >
> >>>>
>         Should you wish to have Americans listen to "a friendly address" from
> you, may I suggest that you cease posting your unfounded smears concerning
> the prosecutors at the Dachau trials.  As they are without factual basis they
> represent an insult to those who had to deal with a gaggle of hoodlums who
> murdered American soldiers and to the integrity of those who insisted they do so
> in a manner consistent with the highest standards of American justice.
> 
>         --YFE


Let's just hope he doesn't point out how we kept those "higher standards 
of American justice" safe and unused in our moral closet during the 
entire administration of FDR, and for a couple years after WWII as well. 
No sense letting a bunch of high American justice get in the way when 
there is war-making and murdering to be done. And then afterwards, you 
can pull your fresh, clean high American justice out of the moral closet 
and use it, full strength, to wash your hands of the accumulated blood.

-- 
Greg Raven (ihrgreg@kaiwan.com)
PO Box 10545, Costa Mesa, CA 92627
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg


From ihrgreg@kaiwan.com Sat Jan 27 21:35:47 PST 1996
Article: 12445 of alt.politics.nationalism.white
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.kei.com!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!news.tc.cornell.edu!newsserver.sdsc.edu!acsc.com!kaiwan.kaiwan.com!usenet
From: Greg Raven 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads,soc.culture.canada,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.censorship,alt.discrimination
Subject: Re: Eleven Questions for Les Griswold (Two New Questions!, Round 1)
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 23:14:08 +0000
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <31096040.7487@kaiwan.com>
References: <4dtdcl$pkc@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
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Ken McVay OBC wrote:
> 
> Mr. Griswold,
> Question One                                     [January, 1995]
> ------------
> 
>    (I have omitted the background data here, as this specific issue
>    is dealt with extensively in another regular post.*)
> 
>    A. How many Natives were there on the North American
>       continent prior to the arrival of the white man?
>    B. How many are there now?
> 

For the sake of the question, does it matter whether or not the natives 
moved to Central America? In other words, are you implying genocide or 
are you implying a combination of genocide and dispossession?

-- 
Greg Raven (ihrgreg@kaiwan.com)
PO Box 10545, Costa Mesa, CA 92627
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg


From ihrgreg@kaiwan.com Sat Jan 27 21:35:48 PST 1996
Article: 12446 of alt.politics.nationalism.white
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.kei.com!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!news.tc.cornell.edu!newsserver.sdsc.edu!acsc.com!kaiwan.kaiwan.com!usenet
From: Greg Raven 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads,soc.culture.canada,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.censorship,alt.discrimination
Subject: Re: Eleven Questions for Les Griswold (Two New Questions!, Round 1)
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 23:15:13 +0000
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <31096081.70E7@kaiwan.com>
References: <4dtdcl$pkc@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
Reply-To: ihrgreg@kaiwan.com
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Ken McVay OBC wrote:
> 
> Mr. Griswold,
> Question One                                     [January, 1995]
> ------------
> 
>    (I have omitted the background data here, as this specific issue
>    is dealt with extensively in another regular post.*)
> 
>    A. How many Natives were there on the North American
>       continent prior to the arrival of the white man?
>    B. How many are there now?
> 

For the sake of the question, does it matter whether or not the natives 
moved to Central America? In other words, does your question deal with 
genocide only or are you implying a combination of genocide and 
dispossession, or any you implying dispossession only?

-- 
Greg Raven (ihrgreg@kaiwan.com)
PO Box 10545, Costa Mesa, CA 92627
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg


From ihrgreg@kaiwan.com Sun Jan 28 09:56:33 PST 1996
Article: 318818 of talk.politics.misc
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!skypoint.com!news3.mr.net!mr.net!chi-news.cic.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!gatech!swrinde!sdd.hp.com!usc!news.cerf.net!newsserver.sdsc.edu!acsc.com!kaiwan.kaiwan.com!usenet
From: Greg Raven 
Newsgroups: rec.autos.misc,rec.autos.driving,rec.autos.tech,ca.driving,dc.driving,alt.law-enforcement,talk.politics.misc,rec.motorcycles
Subject: Re: Speeding
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 21:48:11 +0000
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 15
Message-ID: <3107FA9B.6B22@kaiwan.com>
References:  <4cu7jv$psm@larry.cc.emory.edu> <4d3v2u$l55@calvin.bellahs.com> <4dne1q$et1@ionews.ionet.net> <19JAN199612284497@vms1.tamu.edu> <4dpl0v$fs7@ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <4e0hup$69@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU>
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Charles Bruce Musgrave wrote:
> Your logic is flawed. The limit of safe speed drops when it rains.
> Do people universaly slow down to the appropriate speed for the
> conditions? No. Do traffic accidents and fatalities increase
> when it rains? Yes.

You seem to be overlooking the fact that rain is (usually) a temporary change, and one that 
adversely effects safety but not people's schedules and habits. On the other hand, setting the 
speed limit to 70 mph on a city street would be more along the lines of a permanent condition, to 
which people could and would adjust.

-- 
Greg Raven (ihrgreg@kaiwan.com)
PO Box 10545, Costa Mesa, CA 92627
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg


From ihrgreg@kaiwan.com Tue Jan 30 07:06:48 PST 1996
Article: 22009 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!sgigate.sgi.com!sdd.hp.com!usc!news.cerf.net!newsserver.sdsc.edu!acsc.com!kaiwan.kaiwan.com!usenet
From: Greg Raven 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ernst Zundel Avoids UseNet]
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 21:27:56 +0000
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <310D3BDC.BE4@kaiwan.com>
Reply-To: ihrgreg@kaiwan.com
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X-Mozilla-Status: 0001
Message-ID: <310D3B5E.CED@kaiwan.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 21:25:50 +0000
From: Greg Raven 
Reply-To: ihrgreg@kaiwan.com
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0b6a (Macintosh; I; 68K)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Ken McVay OBC 
Subject: Re: Ernst Zundel Avoids UseNet
References: <4eiiv5$ab2@usenetp1.news.prodigy.com> <4ej2p9$9nt@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Ken McVay OBC wrote:
> Perhaps if Mr. Zundel devoted more of his time to open debate,
> and less to playing the martyr, he wouldn't need his alter-egos.

Perhaps if Mr. McVay was more interested in the facts than in engaging in personal 
attacks on his betters, he would know that Mr. Zundel has no direct access to the 
Internet. Just because there is an Internet account that bears his name, doesn't 
mean that he has access to it.

-- 
Greg Raven (ihrgreg@kaiwan.com)
PO Box 10545, Costa Mesa, CA 92627
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg




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