The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/r/raven.greg/1995/raven.0895


From gvb_hero@ix.netcom.com Tue Aug  1 09:26:26 PDT 1995
Article: 24800 of alt.revisionism
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From: gvb_hero@ix.netcom.com (Mike Jones )
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Raven's lying again...
Date: 1 Aug 1995 01:42:54 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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Distribution: world
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References: <279443801wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk> <806192657snz@abaron.demon.co.uk> <3uokqe$qsa@gwdu19.gwdg.de>  <3us44t$gca@nanaimo.island.net>
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In <3us44t$gca@nanaimo.island.net> kmcvay@nanaimo.island.net (Ken McVay) 
writes: 

>
>In article ,
>Greg Raven 
>>Also, Hoess is unreliable as a witness. In his affidavit and in his
>>testimony, he states things that are not true. It doesn't matter how 
many
>>times he stated these things, or in what form he stated them, they are
>>still not true. Both Christopher Browning and Deborah Lipstadt have 
stated
>>(Vanity Fair, December 1993) that Hoess was an unreliable witness. The
>>bottom line is that just because Hoess said something about Auschwitz,
>>this does not mean that these utterances are automatically "facts."
>
>Horsepucky. Mr. Raven knows full well, because it has been demonstrated 
here
>again and again, that Professor Lipstadt said no such thing. Hoess 
isn't
>even listed in the Index. The article Mr. Raven refers to is archived
>here and there, but that's not important. At least not as important
>as the fact that Mr. Raven lies about Browning, too. Browning did _not_ 
say
>that Hoess was "unreliable as a witness," and I challenge him to 
demonstrate
>that he did.
>
>Raven first raised this nonsense in April of last year, then, having
>received a thorough drubbing, dropped it, as he always does. He 
recently
>raised the issue again, not more than a month or so back, and  has yet 
to
>respond to my previous challenge.
>
>Why? Because the lies are so simple to expose, and Mr. Raven knows it. 
All
>you need to do is read Browning's words, and then read Mr. Raven's 
words,
>then trot out your Lipstadt and try and find Hoess.
>
>Game, set, match.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>-- 
>kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca	kmcvay@mala.bc.ca
>kmcvay@epaus.island.net		kmcvay@port.island.net
>The Nizkor Project		Vancouver Island, B.C.
>

I don't know what the hell your talking about .I've seen the text and I 
believe it. The match is given to Mr. Raven due to cheating. Maybe you 
bought your edited copy at Tower Books.Mr Raven does not respond because 
lies propigated by orthodox 'Histerians' are to numerous. I believe a 
policy of answering a questions once is correct.---Mike


From gvb_hero@ix.netcom.com Wed Aug  2 13:46:56 PDT 1995
Article: 24800 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!vanbc.wimsey.com!news.mindlink.net!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netnews
From: gvb_hero@ix.netcom.com (Mike Jones )
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Raven's lying again...
Date: 1 Aug 1995 01:42:54 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 65
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <3vk0qu$7qs@ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>
References: <279443801wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk> <806192657snz@abaron.demon.co.uk> <3uokqe$qsa@gwdu19.gwdg.de>  <3us44t$gca@nanaimo.island.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ix-sac4-13.ix.netcom.com

In <3us44t$gca@nanaimo.island.net> kmcvay@nanaimo.island.net (Ken McVay) 
writes: 

>
>In article ,
>Greg Raven 
>>Also, Hoess is unreliable as a witness. In his affidavit and in his
>>testimony, he states things that are not true. It doesn't matter how 
many
>>times he stated these things, or in what form he stated them, they are
>>still not true. Both Christopher Browning and Deborah Lipstadt have 
stated
>>(Vanity Fair, December 1993) that Hoess was an unreliable witness. The
>>bottom line is that just because Hoess said something about Auschwitz,
>>this does not mean that these utterances are automatically "facts."
>
>Horsepucky. Mr. Raven knows full well, because it has been demonstrated 
here
>again and again, that Professor Lipstadt said no such thing. Hoess 
isn't
>even listed in the Index. The article Mr. Raven refers to is archived
>here and there, but that's not important. At least not as important
>as the fact that Mr. Raven lies about Browning, too. Browning did _not_ 
say
>that Hoess was "unreliable as a witness," and I challenge him to 
demonstrate
>that he did.
>
>Raven first raised this nonsense in April of last year, then, having
>received a thorough drubbing, dropped it, as he always does. He 
recently
>raised the issue again, not more than a month or so back, and  has yet 
to
>respond to my previous challenge.
>
>Why? Because the lies are so simple to expose, and Mr. Raven knows it. 
All
>you need to do is read Browning's words, and then read Mr. Raven's 
words,
>then trot out your Lipstadt and try and find Hoess.
>
>Game, set, match.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>-- 
>kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca	kmcvay@mala.bc.ca
>kmcvay@epaus.island.net		kmcvay@port.island.net
>The Nizkor Project		Vancouver Island, B.C.
>

I don't know what the hell your talking about .I've seen the text and I 
believe it. The match is given to Mr. Raven due to cheating. Maybe you 
bought your edited copy at Tower Books.Mr Raven does not respond because 
lies propigated by orthodox 'Histerians' are to numerous. I believe a 
policy of answering a questions once is correct.---Mike


From jite@ix.netcom.com Wed Aug  2 16:38:26 PDT 1995
Article: 24868 of alt.revisionism
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From: jite@ix.netcom.com (Rack Jite)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.guns,soc.culture.jewish,misc.legal,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.org.batf,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Pat Buchanan
Date: Tue, 01 Aug 1995 19:51:48 GMT
Organization: Hard Response
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References: <1995Jul18.180521.22084@news.wrc.xerox.com> <3uif2j$q5o@dscomsa.desy.de>  <1995Jul24.155111.19117@hobbes.kzoo.edu> <1995Jul28.192130.6806@news.wrc.xerox.com>
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Eric_Florack@mc.xerox (Eric Florack) wrote and is answered by the sorely
CONSERVATIVELY INCORRECT Mr. Jite:

>>>greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) wrote (among other things):

>>>By unifying the German people and driving out foreign elements,
>>>Hitler united the people in a way that is difficult to imagine
>>>in these "multi-cultural" times.

>>Aha -- you're back, I see, Mr. Raven.
>>For those observers who are not familiar with Mr. Raven:  he is the
>>associate editor of the Journal of Historical Review.  This magazine is
>>the main periodical publication of the Institute for Historical Review,
>>which is probably the world's most successful organization dedicated to
>>Holocaust-denial and (to a lesser extent) anti-Semitism in general.
>>I have proof that each of the paragraphs which I've quoted below
>>contains either an outright falsehood, or a misrepresentation that
>>is so egregious that it can be considered to be a falsehood.

>I suggest you provide such proofs  here. You've now made this a public 
>issue by leveling the accusation here. If you've got something say what it 
>is, in full detail, and have done. Otherwise withdraw the statement. It's 
>been my personal expirience that most '6million' myth types simply haven't 
>done their homework, and are simply mouthing the crap /they've/ been told.
>So far, you've given me no cause to think otherwise.
>I'm willing to listen to facts. You've provided none, while Mr Raven 
>on the other hand, has. Here's your chance. Pony up, or back off.

Ah... Took longer than I expected for your anti-Semetic revisionism
to come to light... What do you know about CHRISTIAN IDENTITY? 


"I suppose I can understand the selfish callous disregard,
   it's the pride in it that passes me by."  Rack Jite
The Journal of Hard Response - POB 845 Seabrook, TX 77586
  Website - http://turnpike.net/emporium/H/HR/index.htm




From joelr@winternet.com Wed Aug  2 23:04:39 PDT 1995
Article: 24873 of alt.revisionism
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From: joelr@winternet.com (Joel Rosenberg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A Few Facts about the IHR
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 23:28:27
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In article  codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) writes:
>Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
>Path: winternet.com!interactive.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!codfish
>From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
>Subject: Re: A Few Facts about the IHR
>Message-ID: 
>Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
>X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
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>Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 23:34:03 GMT
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>Sender: codfish@netcom4.netcom.com


>Yale F. Edeiken (yawen.enter.net) wrote:
>: >   greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) writes:
>: >  A Few Facts About the INSTITUTE FOR HISTORICAL REVIEW
>: >>>>

>:       There are a few facts that you seem to have omitted.  The IHR is 
>: and has always been a front 
>: group for the political ideas of Willis Carto, a well-known anti-semite.
>: ...

>You're a little behind the times.  Carto and the IHR are fighting each 
>other in the courts now.

Because the IHR revisionazis rejected his ideas?  Nah -- they're fighting over 
the money.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Joel Rosenberg       | For news about upcoming books,  | My opinions are mine.
joelr@winternet.com  | finger joelr@winternet.com      | Whose are yours?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From codfish@netcom.com Wed Aug  2 23:04:46 PDT 1995
Article: 24881 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: A Few Facts about the IHR
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
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Joel Rosenberg (joelr@winternet.com) wrote:
: In article  codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) writes:
: >Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
: >Path: winternet.com!interactive.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!codfish
: >From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
: >Subject: Re: A Few Facts about the IHR
: >Message-ID: 
: >Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
: >X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
: >References:  <3v0954$jt8@dns.enter.net>
: >Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 23:34:03 GMT
: >Lines: 14
: >Sender: codfish@netcom4.netcom.com


: >Yale F. Edeiken (yawen.enter.net) wrote:
: >: >   greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) writes:
: >: >  A Few Facts About the INSTITUTE FOR HISTORICAL REVIEW
: >: >>>>

: >:       There are a few facts that you seem to have omitted.  The IHR is 
: >: and has always been a front 
: >: group for the political ideas of Willis Carto, a well-known anti-semite.
: >: ...

: >You're a little behind the times.  Carto and the IHR are fighting each 
: >other in the courts now.

: Because the IHR revisionazis rejected his ideas?  Nah -- they're fighting over 
: the money.

According to the people at the IHR, they arrived at their parting of the 
ways because Carto wanted to deemphasize Holocaust revisionism in the IHR 
Journal, an idea which the IHR people did not go along with at all.

: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
: Joel Rosenberg       | For news about upcoming books,  | My opinions are mine.
: joelr@winternet.com  | finger joelr@winternet.com      | Whose are yours?
: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca Fri Aug  4 02:47:07 PDT 1995
Article: 24924 of alt.revisionism
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From: jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A Few Facts about the IHR
Date: Wed, 02 Aug 1995 16:06:35 GMT
Organization: University of Alberta
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codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) wrote:

>Joel Rosenberg (joelr@winternet.com) wrote:
>
>: >Yale F. Edeiken (yawen.enter.net) wrote:
>: >: >   greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) writes:
>: >: >  A Few Facts About the INSTITUTE FOR HISTORICAL REVIEW
>: >: >>>>

>: >:       There are a few facts that you seem to have omitted.  The IHR is 
>: >: and has always been a front 
>: >: group for the political ideas of Willis Carto, a well-known anti-semite.
>: >: ...

>: >You're a little behind the times.  Carto and the IHR are fighting each 
>: >other in the courts now.

>: Because the IHR revisionazis rejected his ideas?  Nah -- they're fighting over 
>: the money.

>According to the people at the IHR, they arrived at their parting of the 
>ways because Carto wanted to deemphasize Holocaust revisionism in the IHR 
>Journal, an idea which the IHR people did not go along with at all.

Carto wanted to shift the emphasis of the IHR away from Holocaust
denial towards a more openly racist stance. It was more a question of
what kind of pig to be, not whether to stop being pigs.


--
 John Morris                               
 at University of Alberta     
------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
 The Nizkor Project: An Electronic Holocaust Resource
  File archives - ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca
  Web page - http://nizkor.almanac.bc.ca



From Eric_Florack@mc.xerox Fri Aug  4 02:47:11 PDT 1995
Article: 24926 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.guns,soc.culture.jewish,misc.legal,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.org.batf,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.conspiracy
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From: Eric_Florack@mc.xerox (Eric Florack)
Subject: Re: Pat Buchanan
Message-ID: <1995Aug2.142840.27198@news.wrc.xerox.com>
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In article <3vm0hm$cm9@ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>, jite@ix.netcom.com says...
>
>Eric_Florack@mc.xerox (Eric Florack) wrote and is answered by the sorely
>CONSERVATIVELY INCORRECT Mr. Jite:
>
>>>>greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) wrote (among other things):
>
>>>>By unifying the German people and driving out foreign elements,
>>>>Hitler united the people in a way that is difficult to imagine
>>>>in these "multi-cultural" times.
>
>>>Aha -- you're back, I see, Mr. Raven.
>>>For those observers who are not familiar with Mr. Raven:  he is the
>>>associate editor of the Journal of Historical Review.  This magazine is
>>>the main periodical publication of the Institute for Historical Review,
>>>which is probably the world's most successful organization dedicated to
>>>Holocaust-denial and (to a lesser extent) anti-Semitism in general.
>>>I have proof that each of the paragraphs which I've quoted below
>>>contains either an outright falsehood, or a misrepresentation that
>>>is so egregious that it can be considered to be a falsehood.
>
>>I suggest you provide such proofs  here. You've now made this a public 
>>issue by leveling the accusation here. If you've got something say what it 
>>is, in full detail, and have done. Otherwise withdraw the statement. It's 
>>been my personal expirience that most '6million' myth types simply haven't 
>>done their homework, and are simply mouthing the crap /they've/ been told.
>>So far, you've given me no cause to think otherwise.
>>I'm willing to listen to facts. You've provided none, while Mr Raven 
>>on the other hand, has. Here's your chance. Pony up, or back off.
>
>Ah... Took longer than I expected for your anti-Semetic revisionism
>to come to light... What do you know about CHRISTIAN IDENTITY? 

Far more than you, on ANY subject.
Clearly, you're picking and chosing what you want to read, just like always.

I've said several times that the holocuast was an attrocity, and would ahve been 
worth the war against Hitler of it's own merit; that Hitler should ahve been 
procecuted. I have invariably been in Isreal's corner, on the international 
front, despite several actions towards the United States which were far less 
than freindly. 

But because I question the numbers, as presented, I'm suddenly anti-Semetic?
Try again, Dave.

-- 
   =====================================================
   *Eric Florack                                       *
   * Free File Farm BBS1 716-352-6544 v34/vFAST        *
   * Free File Farm BBS2 716-352-1629 v34/vFAST        *
   *    GT network systems. Online 24 hours            *
   =====================================================



From mikedean@austin.ibm.com Fri Aug  4 09:59:26 PDT 1995
Article: 24943 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.guns,soc.culture.jewish,misc.legal,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.org.batf,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.conspiracy
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From: mikedean@austin.ibm.com ()
Subject: Re: Pat Buchanan
Originator: @mcdean.austin.ibm.com
Sender: news@austin.ibm.com (News id)
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In article <1995Aug2.142840.27198@news.wrc.xerox.com>, Eric_Florack@mc.xerox (Eric Florack) writes:
> In article <3vm0hm$cm9@ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>, jite@ix.netcom.com says...
> >
> >Eric_Florack@mc.xerox (Eric Florack) wrote and is answered by the sorely
> >CONSERVATIVELY INCORRECT Mr. Jite:
> >
> >>>>greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) wrote (among other things):
> >
> >>>>By unifying the German people and driving out foreign elements,
> >>>>Hitler united the people in a way that is difficult to imagine
> >>>>in these "multi-cultural" times.
> >
> >>>Aha -- you're back, I see, Mr. Raven.
> >>>For those observers who are not familiar with Mr. Raven:  he is the
> >>>associate editor of the Journal of Historical Review.  This magazine is
> >>>the main periodical publication of the Institute for Historical Review,
> >>>which is probably the world's most successful organization dedicated to
> >>>Holocaust-denial and (to a lesser extent) anti-Semitism in general.
> >>>I have proof that each of the paragraphs which I've quoted below
> >>>contains either an outright falsehood, or a misrepresentation that
> >>>is so egregious that it can be considered to be a falsehood.
> >
> >>I suggest you provide such proofs  here. You've now made this a public 
> >>issue by leveling the accusation here. If you've got something say what it 
> >>is, in full detail, and have done. Otherwise withdraw the statement. It's 
> >>been my personal expirience that most '6million' myth types simply haven't 
> >>done their homework, and are simply mouthing the crap /they've/ been told.
> >>So far, you've given me no cause to think otherwise.
> >>I'm willing to listen to facts. You've provided none, while Mr Raven 
> >>on the other hand, has. Here's your chance. Pony up, or back off.
> >
> >Ah... Took longer than I expected for your anti-Semetic revisionism
> >to come to light... What do you know about CHRISTIAN IDENTITY? 
> 
> Far more than you, on ANY subject.
> Clearly, you're picking and chosing what you want to read, just like always.
> 
> I've said several times that the holocuast was an attrocity, and would ahve been 
> worth the war against Hitler of it's own merit; that Hitler should ahve been 
> procecuted. I have invariably been in Isreal's corner, on the international 
> front, despite several actions towards the United States which were far less 
> than freindly. 
> 
> But because I question the numbers, as presented, I'm suddenly anti-Semetic?
> Try again, Dave.
> 
> -- 
>    =====================================================
>    *Eric Florack                                       *
>    * Free File Farm BBS1 716-352-6544 v34/vFAST        *
>    * Free File Farm BBS2 716-352-1629 v34/vFAST        *
>    *    GT network systems. Online 24 hours            *
>    =====================================================
> 

I remember that it was accepted fact that 3 million Jewish people were murdered
by Hitler and 3 Million others. This was in the concentration camps. The others
included Slavs, Seventh Day 
Adventist, Roman Catholics, Homosexuals, Mentally Retarded, and others 
qualifying for the extreme sanction. It later just became 6 million Jews. I 
really don't know for sure anymore what the numbers are. I have heard estimates
the Hitler was responsible for the premature deaths of over 60 million people.
30 Million were Russians, and various other Eastern European people. Not in 
Concentration camps. In the Gunnis Book of World records it is mentioned that
Chairman Mao was the champ being responsible for the premature deaths of 
100 Million people (This is from a Russian Estimate). 
-- 
Michael (Mike) C. Dean
IBM - RISC/6000 Division
Austin, Texas.
Disclaimer - The opinions expressed in this append are mine alone.


From jite@ix.netcom.com Sat Aug  5 08:56:48 PDT 1995
Article: 25028 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!vanbc.wimsey.com!unixg.ubc.ca!news.bc.net!news.uoregon.edu!gatech!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netnews
From: jite@ix.netcom.com (Rack Jite)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.guns,soc.culture.jewish,misc.legal,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.org.batf,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Pat Buchanan
Date: Thu, 03 Aug 1995 20:37:38 GMT
Organization: Hard Response
Lines: 39
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <3vrc0c$9dc@ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>
References: <1995Jul18.180521.22084@news.wrc.xerox.com> <3uif2j$q5o@dscomsa.desy.de>  <1995Jul24.155111.19117@hobbes.kzoo.edu> <1995Jul28.192130.6806@news.wrc.xerox.com> <3vm0hm$cm9@ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <1995Aug2.142840.27198@news.wrc.xerox.com>
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Eric_Florack@mc.xerox (Eric Florack) wrote and is answered by the sorely
CONSERVATIVELY INCORRECT Mr. Jite:

>I've said several times that the holocuast was an attrocity,
>and would ahve been worth the war against Hitler of it's own merit;
>that Hitler should ahve been procecuted. I have invariably been in
>Isreal's corner, on the international front, despite several actions
>towards the United States which were far lessthan freindly. 
>But because I question the numbers, as presented, I'm suddenly
>anti-Semetic?

No suddenly about it... And that was the FIRST I've heard from you
condemning either Hitler of the Holocuast.

It's just a matter of time before your pride in your FUNDAMENTALIST
CHRISTIAN ARYAN bigotry, racism and anti-Semitism comes to light here as
you allowed it to do consistantly in the past. But more people are
watching and yer being more careful than before arent you Eric?

And by the way, it was you and the other Florack who were banned not
only from the GT NETWORK for forging the headers and bodies of other
people's messages, but thrown off the BBS [which was owned by your own
family] you accessed GT from.

You are just what Chris Morton accuses so many others of being.
The real live CHRISTIAN ARYAN RACIST in a real live CHRISTIAN ARYAN
RACIST organization pushing that crap from your own BBS.
But not to worry, as long as you wave a gun around yer head screeching
about the ATF, yer in the clear with him...


  

"I suppose I can understand the selfish callous disregard,
   it's the pride in it that passes me by."  Rack Jite
The Journal of Hard Response - POB 845 Seabrook, TX 77586
  Website - http://turnpike.net/emporium/H/HR/index.htm




From tsjwr@camelot.acf-lab.alaska.edu Sat Aug  5 10:41:02 PDT 1995
Article: 25047 of alt.revisionism
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From: tsjwr@camelot.acf-lab.alaska.edu (John W Redelfs)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.guns,soc.culture.jewish,misc.legal,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.org.batf,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Pat Buchanan
Followup-To: talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.guns,soc.culture.jewish,misc.legal,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.org.batf,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.conspiracy
Date: 4 Aug 1995 00:24:30 GMT
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What does this have to do with Pat Buchanan, and why in the blazes
don't you change your subject line?

I don't have time for this.

--
John W. Redelfs                       tsjwr@camelot.acf-lab.alaska.edu
**********************************************************************
"Our Constitution was designed only for a moral and religious people.
It is wholly inadequate for the government of any other." (John Adams,
1789)
**********************************************************************
All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR



From jite@ix.netcom.com Sat Aug  5 18:53:28 PDT 1995
Article: 75417 of alt.conspiracy
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!vanbc.wimsey.com!unixg.ubc.ca!news.bc.net!news.uoregon.edu!gatech!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netnews
From: jite@ix.netcom.com (Rack Jite)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.guns,soc.culture.jewish,misc.legal,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.org.batf,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Pat Buchanan
Date: Thu, 03 Aug 1995 20:37:38 GMT
Organization: Hard Response
Lines: 39
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <3vrc0c$9dc@ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>
References: <1995Jul18.180521.22084@news.wrc.xerox.com> <3uif2j$q5o@dscomsa.desy.de>  <1995Jul24.155111.19117@hobbes.kzoo.edu> <1995Jul28.192130.6806@news.wrc.xerox.com> <3vm0hm$cm9@ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <1995Aug2.142840.27198@news.wrc.xerox.com>
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Eric_Florack@mc.xerox (Eric Florack) wrote and is answered by the sorely
CONSERVATIVELY INCORRECT Mr. Jite:

>I've said several times that the holocuast was an attrocity,
>and would ahve been worth the war against Hitler of it's own merit;
>that Hitler should ahve been procecuted. I have invariably been in
>Isreal's corner, on the international front, despite several actions
>towards the United States which were far lessthan freindly. 
>But because I question the numbers, as presented, I'm suddenly
>anti-Semetic?

No suddenly about it... And that was the FIRST I've heard from you
condemning either Hitler of the Holocuast.

It's just a matter of time before your pride in your FUNDAMENTALIST
CHRISTIAN ARYAN bigotry, racism and anti-Semitism comes to light here as
you allowed it to do consistantly in the past. But more people are
watching and yer being more careful than before arent you Eric?

And by the way, it was you and the other Florack who were banned not
only from the GT NETWORK for forging the headers and bodies of other
people's messages, but thrown off the BBS [which was owned by your own
family] you accessed GT from.

You are just what Chris Morton accuses so many others of being.
The real live CHRISTIAN ARYAN RACIST in a real live CHRISTIAN ARYAN
RACIST organization pushing that crap from your own BBS.
But not to worry, as long as you wave a gun around yer head screeching
about the ATF, yer in the clear with him...


  

"I suppose I can understand the selfish callous disregard,
   it's the pride in it that passes me by."  Rack Jite
The Journal of Hard Response - POB 845 Seabrook, TX 77586
  Website - http://turnpike.net/emporium/H/HR/index.htm




From tsjwr@camelot.acf-lab.alaska.edu Sat Aug  5 18:53:51 PDT 1995
Article: 75456 of alt.conspiracy
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From: tsjwr@camelot.acf-lab.alaska.edu (John W Redelfs)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.guns,soc.culture.jewish,misc.legal,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.org.batf,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Pat Buchanan
Followup-To: talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.guns,soc.culture.jewish,misc.legal,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.org.batf,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.conspiracy
Date: 4 Aug 1995 00:24:30 GMT
Organization: University of Alaska Computer Network
Lines: 14
Message-ID: <3vrpbu$nsj@news.alaska.edu>
References: <1995Jul18.180521.22084@news.wrc.xerox.com> <3uif2j$q5o@dscomsa.desy.de>  <1995Jul24.155111.19117@hobbes.kzoo.edu> <1995Jul28.192130.6806@news.wrc.xerox.com>
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What does this have to do with Pat Buchanan, and why in the blazes
don't you change your subject line?

I don't have time for this.

--
John W. Redelfs                       tsjwr@camelot.acf-lab.alaska.edu
**********************************************************************
"Our Constitution was designed only for a moral and religious people.
It is wholly inadequate for the government of any other." (John Adams,
1789)
**********************************************************************
All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR



From jite@ix.netcom.com Sun Aug  6 15:35:53 PDT 1995
Article: 25028 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!vanbc.wimsey.com!unixg.ubc.ca!news.bc.net!news.uoregon.edu!gatech!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netnews
From: jite@ix.netcom.com (Rack Jite)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.guns,soc.culture.jewish,misc.legal,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.org.batf,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Pat Buchanan
Date: Thu, 03 Aug 1995 20:37:38 GMT
Organization: Hard Response
Lines: 39
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <3vrc0c$9dc@ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>
References: <1995Jul18.180521.22084@news.wrc.xerox.com> <3uif2j$q5o@dscomsa.desy.de>  <1995Jul24.155111.19117@hobbes.kzoo.edu> <1995Jul28.192130.6806@news.wrc.xerox.com> <3vm0hm$cm9@ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <1995Aug2.142840.27198@news.wrc.xerox.com>
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Xref: news.port.island.net talk.politics.misc:217125 talk.politics.guns:163985 soc.culture.jewish:109298 misc.legal:77496 alt.revisionism:25028 alt.politics.org.batf:6073 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:187792 alt.conspiracy:75417

Eric_Florack@mc.xerox (Eric Florack) wrote and is answered by the sorely
CONSERVATIVELY INCORRECT Mr. Jite:

>I've said several times that the holocuast was an attrocity,
>and would ahve been worth the war against Hitler of it's own merit;
>that Hitler should ahve been procecuted. I have invariably been in
>Isreal's corner, on the international front, despite several actions
>towards the United States which were far lessthan freindly. 
>But because I question the numbers, as presented, I'm suddenly
>anti-Semetic?

No suddenly about it... And that was the FIRST I've heard from you
condemning either Hitler of the Holocuast.

It's just a matter of time before your pride in your FUNDAMENTALIST
CHRISTIAN ARYAN bigotry, racism and anti-Semitism comes to light here as
you allowed it to do consistantly in the past. But more people are
watching and yer being more careful than before arent you Eric?

And by the way, it was you and the other Florack who were banned not
only from the GT NETWORK for forging the headers and bodies of other
people's messages, but thrown off the BBS [which was owned by your own
family] you accessed GT from.

You are just what Chris Morton accuses so many others of being.
The real live CHRISTIAN ARYAN RACIST in a real live CHRISTIAN ARYAN
RACIST organization pushing that crap from your own BBS.
But not to worry, as long as you wave a gun around yer head screeching
about the ATF, yer in the clear with him...


  

"I suppose I can understand the selfish callous disregard,
   it's the pride in it that passes me by."  Rack Jite
The Journal of Hard Response - POB 845 Seabrook, TX 77586
  Website - http://turnpike.net/emporium/H/HR/index.htm




From tsjwr@camelot.acf-lab.alaska.edu Sun Aug  6 15:36:05 PDT 1995
Article: 25047 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.megaweb.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!biosci!news.alaska.edu!camelot!tsjwr
From: tsjwr@camelot.acf-lab.alaska.edu (John W Redelfs)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.guns,soc.culture.jewish,misc.legal,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.org.batf,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Pat Buchanan
Followup-To: talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.guns,soc.culture.jewish,misc.legal,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.org.batf,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.conspiracy
Date: 4 Aug 1995 00:24:30 GMT
Organization: University of Alaska Computer Network
Lines: 14
Message-ID: <3vrpbu$nsj@news.alaska.edu>
References: <1995Jul18.180521.22084@news.wrc.xerox.com> <3uif2j$q5o@dscomsa.desy.de>  <1995Jul24.155111.19117@hobbes.kzoo.edu> <1995Jul28.192130.6806@news.wrc.xerox.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: camelot.acf-lab.alaska.edu
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Xref: news.port.island.net talk.politics.misc:217172 talk.politics.guns:164036 soc.culture.jewish:109314 misc.legal:77502 alt.revisionism:25047 alt.politics.org.batf:6081 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:187838 alt.conspiracy:75456

What does this have to do with Pat Buchanan, and why in the blazes
don't you change your subject line?

I don't have time for this.

--
John W. Redelfs                       tsjwr@camelot.acf-lab.alaska.edu
**********************************************************************
"Our Constitution was designed only for a moral and religious people.
It is wholly inadequate for the government of any other." (John Adams,
1789)
**********************************************************************
All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR



From jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Sun Aug  6 15:36:36 PDT 1995
Article: 25090 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk!jeff
From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: EXPERT? HE'S LYING OR IGNORANT; IDIOT AWARD to MR KEREN
Date: Thu, 03 Aug 1995 23:59:14 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 63
Message-ID: <573176855wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
References:    <875291222wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
Reply-To: jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk
X-NNTP-Posting-Host: stumpy.demon.co.uk
X-Broken-Date: Thursday, Aug 03, 1995 23.59.14
X-Newsreader: Newswin Alpha 0.7


The following extract is just part of the testimony at the Zundel trial of 
Ivan Lagace, a funeral director and crematorium manager and operator from 
Calgary, Alberta. Lagace has disposed of more than 10,000 bodies since 1976, 
and cremated more than 1000 since 1984. He has handled victims of fire, 
accident, and disease, and has seen every stage of bodily composition.

He was accorded EXPERT status at the Zundel trial.

Lagace next explained some calculations he had made after studying the plans 
for the 46 retorts at Birkenau.(Auschwitz II)
Christie [defence counsel for Zundel] asked him how these compared to the 
plans for his own crematorium.
Well, said Lagace, When I first looked at these [Birkenau plans], I was 
amazed." The specifications were almost identical to his own retort, 
including the unusually high 45-foot stack. Based on the afterburner design, 
he added, it is obvious they were concerned with environmental effects. 
There would be no smoke and no odor."
Lagace estimated that the 46 retorts at Birkenau could handle about 184 
bodies daily, or four apiece.
But, asked Christie, what about Raul Hilberg's estimate of 4,400 cremations 
per day at Birkenau?
Well," said Lagace, that's preposterous, in my eyes. It's beyond the realm 
of reality."
Christie asked if operating 24 hours a day would raise the output.
Just the opposite, insisted Lagace, it would shorten the lifespan of the 
refractory" and create costly delays.
Christie read to Lagace from Hilberg's account of a period in 1944 when 
about 10,000 Jews a day were allegedly being gassed at Birkenau, and asked 
again if the 46 retorts could have cremated 4,400 of the victims daily.
Lagace: It would be ludicrous to say something like that.

dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) writes:
"Well, this "EXPERT" is either lying or he has no idea what
he's talking about......"

Well, Keren knows better. Keren is a expert. For example, Keren 
certainly knows about abuse. He's a expert on it. Especially 
self-abuse. 


See what another "intellectual zero" like Ivan Lagace has to say:-

Check out:- 

The Holocaust on Trial ,The case of Ernst Zundel by Robert Lenski.

The Institute of Historical Review PO Box 2739, Newport Beach, CA 
92659 USA.




Jeff
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------





From jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Sun Aug  6 15:36:40 PDT 1995
Article: 25092 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!btnet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk
From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: CREMATION RATE AT BIRKENAU LUDICROUS says Keren
Date: Fri, 04 Aug 1995 01:37:48 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 105
Message-ID: <881071382wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
References:    <875291222wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
Reply-To: jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk
X-NNTP-Posting-Host: stumpy.demon.co.uk
X-Broken-Date: Friday, Aug 04, 1995 01.37.48
X-Newsreader: Newswin Alpha 0.7

dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) writes:
> There's BTW a patent, submitted by the very same Topf firm
> in 1951, which gives a cremation time of 30-45 minutes
> per corpse. It is not the same type of furnace as the
> one used in Birkenau, but this figure obviously means
> a lot, assuming the science of cremation has not made
> a quantum leap right after the war. Once more, the
> revisionazis have failed to do their homework."

So let's use Karen's figures to work out the crematory rates for 
Birkenau, after all, he knows better than Ivan Lagace, an "intellectual 
zero" who was granted Expert status on Cremation at the Zundel trial, 

["Lagace estimated that the 46 retorts at Birkenau could handle about 184 
bodies daily, or four apiece." (Holocaust on Trial Page 239)]

Lagace is obviously a Neo-Nazi liar or Neo-Nazi ignoramus or more 
likely - a Neo-Nazi lying ignoramus.


There was 46 retorts at Auschwitz II (Birkenau).

At the best possible rate [on 1951 figures], flat out with no problems, no maintenance, no warming up, no cooling down, no tea breaks, etc 
at 30 minutes per corpse the 46 retorts at Birkenau would have cremated:-

46 * 24 * 2 = 2208 corpses a day.  


A bit short of the SS estimate of 4,756 a day. 
[letter from SS-SturmbannfuehrerJahrling to SS-General Kammler, June 25 1943, see "Auschwitz:Technique and operation of the gas chambers" - J.C Pressac,the Beate Klarsfeld Foundation, NY, 1989, p. 247] 

And a little short of the Polish Commission of Inquiry's estimate of 12,000 a day. [The Final Solution [1968]; Reitlinger page 159]

And even Hoess the commandant of Auschwitz, who seems to have a lot of problems with numbers  -------- 16,000 a day. 
[The Final Solution [1968]; Reitlinger page 159]

And just a little bit short of inmate Olga lengel's estimate of 17,280 a day. ("Five chimmeys" P68 cited in; Destruction of the European Jews 1961 
Hilberg page 629) 

And just a little bit short of Dr Nysizli's estimate of 20,000 a day.
[The Final Solution [1968]; Reitlinger page 159]


At the next possible rate [on 1951 figures], flat out with no problems, no maintenance, no warming up, no cooling down, and no tea breaks, etc 
at 45 minutes per corpse the 46 retorts at Birkenau would have cremated:-

46 * 32 = 1472 corpses per day.  

A bit short of the SS estimate of       ------------------ 4,756 a day. 
And a little short of the Polish Commission's estimate of 12,000 a day. 
Hoess the commandant of Auschwitz,               -------- 16,000 a day. 
Inmate Olga lengel's estimate --------------------------- 17,280 a day.
Dr Nysizli's estimate ----------------------------------- 20,000 a day.

However, these were 1951 figures, for the 1940s, let's make it a hour 
per corpse:-  

46 * 24 = 1104 a day. 

A bit short of the SS estimate of       ------------------ 4,756 a day. 
And a little short of the Polish Commission's estimate of 12,000 a day. 
Hoess the commandant of Auschwitz, he's wrong again------ 16,000 a day. 
Inmate Olga lengel's estimate --------------------------- 17,280 a day.
Dr Nysizli's estimate ----------------------------------- 20,000 a day.


However, let's not be a intellectual zero like Roberts or Baron, and complain that even these figures are unrealistic, let's remember that the Nazis [or the Jewish Sonderkommando who actually operated the retorts, who worked hard and were highly traine
, and were next for gassing] stuck 3 
corpses in at a time, in every retort, right through those 24 hours, despite the fact the retorts were designed for single corpse cremation, and did it flat out with no problems, no maintenance, no warming up, no cooling down, etc. 

Now let us IGNORE the idea that this might take 3 times as long, and say it will take the SAME time as for 1 corpse, as everyone knows it will, otherwise we may be classed as intellectual zeros, and we wouldn't want that would we.  

1) Best possible rate [1951] 46 * 48 = 6624. [10 minutes per corpse]

2) Next best rate [1951]     46 * 32 = 4416. [15 minutes per corpse]

3) 1940's rate               46 * 24 = 3312. [20 minutes per corpse]

At last the forged SS letter estimate is in range.  ------ 4,756 a day. 
But a little short of the Polish Commission's estimate of 12,000 a day. 
Hoess the commandant of Auschwitz, he's wrong again------ 16,000 a day. 
Inmate Olga lengel's estimate --------------------------- 17,280 a day.
Dr Nysizli's estimate ----------------------------------- 20,000 a day.


Now that's better, that SS estimate now FITS.


Back to sleep.
 

PS: Comment, Jamie?

-- 
Jeff
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------







From jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca Sun Aug  6 21:18:42 PDT 1995
Article: 25133 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsjunkie.ans.net!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!news.cyberstore.ca!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!news.bc.net!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!news
From: jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: CREMATION RATE AT BIRKENAU LUDICROUS says Keren
Date: Fri, 04 Aug 1995 17:37:13 GMT
Organization: University of Alberta
Lines: 148
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Jeff  wrote:

[quoted text reformatted for 80 column display: if anything's missing
it's not my fault]

>dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) writes:
>> There's BTW a patent, submitted by the very same Topf firm
>> in 1951, which gives a cremation time of 30-45 minutes
>> per corpse. It is not the same type of furnace as the
>> one used in Birkenau, but this figure obviously means
>> a lot, assuming the science of cremation has not made
>> a quantum leap right after the war. Once more, the
>> revisionazis have failed to do their homework."

>So let's use Karen's figures to work out the crematory rates for 
>Birkenau, after all, he knows better than Ivan Lagace, an "intellectual 
>zero" who was granted Expert status on Cremation at the Zundel trial, 

>["Lagace estimated that the 46 retorts at Birkenau could handle about 184 
>bodies daily, or four apiece." (Holocaust on Trial Page 239)]

Operators of funerary crematoria are very concerned that the bodies
are burned thoroughly and that the ashes are not mixed with the ashes
>from  other bodies. The four bodies a day figure allows for heating up
and cooling down of the retorts and for clean up and funeral services.
None of these considerations concerned the SS who only had it in mind
to incinerate as many bodies as possible in as short a time as
possible. Although at Kulmhof, Oberwachtmeister Bruno Israel's
testimony on burning techniques might be applicable to Auschwitz, too:
"The bodies burned quickly, and new ones were continually being thrown
in" (cited in Kogon, et al., _Nazi Mass Murder_, Yale UP, 1993).

It might help clarify the situation if we called the crematorias
"incinerators" instead, for that is what they were.

>Lagace is obviously a Neo-Nazi liar or Neo-Nazi ignoramus or more 
>likely - a Neo-Nazi lying ignoramus.


>There was 46 retorts at Auschwitz II (Birkenau).

>At the best possible rate [on 1951 figures], flat out with no problems, no maintenance, no warming up, no cooling down, no tea breaks, etc 
>at 30 minutes per corpse the 46 retorts at Birkenau would have cremated:-

>46 * 24 * 2 = 2208 corpses a day.  

You realize, of course, that this figure allows for the incineration
of 805,920 in the course of a year which is certainly in the ballpark
for the best estimates of the numbers of people murdered at Auschwitz.

Now what if you incinerate the body of a child at the same time as you
incinerate an adult? Using your figures we now have an incineration
capacity in the neighbourhood of 4400 per day. That, by the way,
allows a theortical incineration capacity in excess of the best
estimates of the numbers of person murdered at Auschwitz. Add in the
six retorts at Auschwitz I at the same rate, and you have a capacity
of around 4900.

>A bit short of the SS estimate of 4,756 a day. 
>[letter from SS-SturmbannfuehrerJahrling to SS-General Kammler, June 
>25 1943, see "Auschwitz: Technique and operation of the gas chambers" - 
>J.C Pressac,the Beate Klarsfeld Foundation, NY, 1989, p. 247] 

>And a little short of the Polish Commission of Inquiry's estimate of 
>12,000 a day. [The Final Solution [1968]; Reitlinger page 159]

>And even Hoess the commandant of Auschwitz, who seems to have a lot of 
>problems with numbers  -------- 16,000 a day. 
>[The Final Solution [1968]; Reitlinger page 159]

Maybe you should have read the rest of the footnote on page 160 where
Dr. Bendel refers to the pit burning capacity as 1000 per hour. You
can work out the arithmetic as well as I can.

>And just a little bit short of inmate Olga lengel's estimate of 17,280 
>a day. ("Five chimmeys" P68 cited in; Destruction of the European Jews 
>1961 Hilberg page 629) 

Sorry. Can't find this in the definitive 1985 edition. I suggest you
use up to date sources. Or are you just picking up citations from some
crappy little pamphlets from the IHR?

>And just a little bit short of Dr Nysizli's estimate of 20,000 a day.
>[The Final Solution [1968]; Reitlinger page 159]

Yes, you can do the arithmetic as well as I can.

>At the next possible rate [on 1951 figures], flat out with no 
>problems, no maintenance, no warming up, no cooling down, and no tea 
>breaks, etc at 45 minutes per corpse the 46 retorts at Birkenau would 
>have cremated:-

Tea breaks. Cute. "On August 30, 1944 878 men [the Sonderkommando]
were employed in two shifts labeled simply 'day' and 'night'" (cited
in Hilberg, _The Destruction_, 1985). If you want to play arithmetic
games tell me how I figured out that that many men could have carried
more than 30,000 corpses to a burning pit in 24 hours (hint: two men
carrying one corpse between them very five minutes). Burning pits?
Nobody said that every single body was disposed of in the crematoria.
Because there was "no warming up, no cooling down," the crematoria
were subject to frequent breakdowns. But I guess you thought you could
ignore the burning pits because you don't believe in them.

[More clever arithmetic deleted]

>However, let's not be a intellectual zero like Roberts or Baron, and 

Poor lamb!

>complain that even these figures are unrealistic, let's remember that 
>the Nazis [or the Jewish Sonderkommando who actually operated the 
>retorts, who worked hard and were highly traine
>, and were next for gassing] stuck 3 corpses in at a time, in every 
>retort, right through those 24 hours, despite the fact the retorts 
>were designed for single corpse cremation, and did it flat out with no 
>problems, no maintenance, no warming up, no cooling down, etc. 

878 men. Two shifts. @ one body between two men every five minutes.
More than 30,000 in 24 hours. In pits. Fater than Kremas. Kremas
eventually abandoned because pits more efficient.

>Now let us IGNORE the idea that this might take 3 times as long, and 
>say it will take the SAME time as for 1 corpse, as everyone knows it 
>will, otherwise we may be classed as intellectual zeros, and we 
>wouldn't want that would we.  

Hmm. The bodies of three children would take 3 times longer than one
adult. Do favour us with some aritmetic here.

The main point is that no matter how you play "Jeff's Fun With
Numbers," Jeff's figures temselves can show that the Kremas alone had
the *theoretical* capacity to dispose of far more bodies than anyone
has reasonably claimed were actually murdered at Auschwitz. But, of
course, the Kremas did not dispose of that many bodies by temselves.
They were eventually abandoned in favour of burning pits.

>Back to sleep.

"Back" to sleep? When did you wake up, Al?

--
 John Morris                               
 at University of Alberta     
------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
 The Nizkor Project: An Electronic Holocaust Resource
  File archives - ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca
  Web page - http://nizkor.almanac.bc.ca



From jite@ix.netcom.com Sun Aug  6 18:45:12 PDT 1995
Article: 25028 of alt.revisionism
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From: jite@ix.netcom.com (Rack Jite)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.guns,soc.culture.jewish,misc.legal,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.org.batf,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Pat Buchanan
Date: Thu, 03 Aug 1995 20:37:38 GMT
Organization: Hard Response
Lines: 39
Distribution: world
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Eric_Florack@mc.xerox (Eric Florack) wrote and is answered by the sorely
CONSERVATIVELY INCORRECT Mr. Jite:

>I've said several times that the holocuast was an attrocity,
>and would ahve been worth the war against Hitler of it's own merit;
>that Hitler should ahve been procecuted. I have invariably been in
>Isreal's corner, on the international front, despite several actions
>towards the United States which were far lessthan freindly. 
>But because I question the numbers, as presented, I'm suddenly
>anti-Semetic?

No suddenly about it... And that was the FIRST I've heard from you
condemning either Hitler of the Holocuast.

It's just a matter of time before your pride in your FUNDAMENTALIST
CHRISTIAN ARYAN bigotry, racism and anti-Semitism comes to light here as
you allowed it to do consistantly in the past. But more people are
watching and yer being more careful than before arent you Eric?

And by the way, it was you and the other Florack who were banned not
only from the GT NETWORK for forging the headers and bodies of other
people's messages, but thrown off the BBS [which was owned by your own
family] you accessed GT from.

You are just what Chris Morton accuses so many others of being.
The real live CHRISTIAN ARYAN RACIST in a real live CHRISTIAN ARYAN
RACIST organization pushing that crap from your own BBS.
But not to worry, as long as you wave a gun around yer head screeching
about the ATF, yer in the clear with him...


  

"I suppose I can understand the selfish callous disregard,
   it's the pride in it that passes me by."  Rack Jite
The Journal of Hard Response - POB 845 Seabrook, TX 77586
  Website - http://turnpike.net/emporium/H/HR/index.htm




From tsjwr@camelot.acf-lab.alaska.edu Sun Aug  6 18:45:20 PDT 1995
Article: 25047 of alt.revisionism
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From: tsjwr@camelot.acf-lab.alaska.edu (John W Redelfs)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.guns,soc.culture.jewish,misc.legal,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.org.batf,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Pat Buchanan
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What does this have to do with Pat Buchanan, and why in the blazes
don't you change your subject line?

I don't have time for this.

--
John W. Redelfs                       tsjwr@camelot.acf-lab.alaska.edu
**********************************************************************
"Our Constitution was designed only for a moral and religious people.
It is wholly inadequate for the government of any other." (John Adams,
1789)
**********************************************************************
All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR



From jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Sun Aug  6 18:45:37 PDT 1995
Article: 25090 of alt.revisionism
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From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: EXPERT? HE'S LYING OR IGNORANT; IDIOT AWARD to MR KEREN
Date: Thu, 03 Aug 1995 23:59:14 GMT
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The following extract is just part of the testimony at the Zundel trial of 
Ivan Lagace, a funeral director and crematorium manager and operator from 
Calgary, Alberta. Lagace has disposed of more than 10,000 bodies since 1976, 
and cremated more than 1000 since 1984. He has handled victims of fire, 
accident, and disease, and has seen every stage of bodily composition.

He was accorded EXPERT status at the Zundel trial.

Lagace next explained some calculations he had made after studying the plans 
for the 46 retorts at Birkenau.(Auschwitz II)
Christie [defence counsel for Zundel] asked him how these compared to the 
plans for his own crematorium.
Well, said Lagace, When I first looked at these [Birkenau plans], I was 
amazed." The specifications were almost identical to his own retort, 
including the unusually high 45-foot stack. Based on the afterburner design, 
he added, it is obvious they were concerned with environmental effects. 
There would be no smoke and no odor."
Lagace estimated that the 46 retorts at Birkenau could handle about 184 
bodies daily, or four apiece.
But, asked Christie, what about Raul Hilberg's estimate of 4,400 cremations 
per day at Birkenau?
Well," said Lagace, that's preposterous, in my eyes. It's beyond the realm 
of reality."
Christie asked if operating 24 hours a day would raise the output.
Just the opposite, insisted Lagace, it would shorten the lifespan of the 
refractory" and create costly delays.
Christie read to Lagace from Hilberg's account of a period in 1944 when 
about 10,000 Jews a day were allegedly being gassed at Birkenau, and asked 
again if the 46 retorts could have cremated 4,400 of the victims daily.
Lagace: It would be ludicrous to say something like that.

dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) writes:
"Well, this "EXPERT" is either lying or he has no idea what
he's talking about......"

Well, Keren knows better. Keren is a expert. For example, Keren 
certainly knows about abuse. He's a expert on it. Especially 
self-abuse. 


See what another "intellectual zero" like Ivan Lagace has to say:-

Check out:- 

The Holocaust on Trial ,The case of Ernst Zundel by Robert Lenski.

The Institute of Historical Review PO Box 2739, Newport Beach, CA 
92659 USA.




Jeff
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------





From jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Sun Aug  6 18:45:41 PDT 1995
Article: 25092 of alt.revisionism
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From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: CREMATION RATE AT BIRKENAU LUDICROUS says Keren
Date: Fri, 04 Aug 1995 01:37:48 GMT
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) writes:
> There's BTW a patent, submitted by the very same Topf firm
> in 1951, which gives a cremation time of 30-45 minutes
> per corpse. It is not the same type of furnace as the
> one used in Birkenau, but this figure obviously means
> a lot, assuming the science of cremation has not made
> a quantum leap right after the war. Once more, the
> revisionazis have failed to do their homework."

So let's use Karen's figures to work out the crematory rates for 
Birkenau, after all, he knows better than Ivan Lagace, an "intellectual 
zero" who was granted Expert status on Cremation at the Zundel trial, 

["Lagace estimated that the 46 retorts at Birkenau could handle about 184 
bodies daily, or four apiece." (Holocaust on Trial Page 239)]

Lagace is obviously a Neo-Nazi liar or Neo-Nazi ignoramus or more 
likely - a Neo-Nazi lying ignoramus.


There was 46 retorts at Auschwitz II (Birkenau).

At the best possible rate [on 1951 figures], flat out with no problems, no maintenance, no warming up, no cooling down, no tea breaks, etc 
at 30 minutes per corpse the 46 retorts at Birkenau would have cremated:-

46 * 24 * 2 = 2208 corpses a day.  


A bit short of the SS estimate of 4,756 a day. 
[letter from SS-SturmbannfuehrerJahrling to SS-General Kammler, June 25 1943, see "Auschwitz:Technique and operation of the gas chambers" - J.C Pressac,the Beate Klarsfeld Foundation, NY, 1989, p. 247] 

And a little short of the Polish Commission of Inquiry's estimate of 12,000 a day. [The Final Solution [1968]; Reitlinger page 159]

And even Hoess the commandant of Auschwitz, who seems to have a lot of problems with numbers  -------- 16,000 a day. 
[The Final Solution [1968]; Reitlinger page 159]

And just a little bit short of inmate Olga lengel's estimate of 17,280 a day. ("Five chimmeys" P68 cited in; Destruction of the European Jews 1961 
Hilberg page 629) 

And just a little bit short of Dr Nysizli's estimate of 20,000 a day.
[The Final Solution [1968]; Reitlinger page 159]


At the next possible rate [on 1951 figures], flat out with no problems, no maintenance, no warming up, no cooling down, and no tea breaks, etc 
at 45 minutes per corpse the 46 retorts at Birkenau would have cremated:-

46 * 32 = 1472 corpses per day.  

A bit short of the SS estimate of       ------------------ 4,756 a day. 
And a little short of the Polish Commission's estimate of 12,000 a day. 
Hoess the commandant of Auschwitz,               -------- 16,000 a day. 
Inmate Olga lengel's estimate --------------------------- 17,280 a day.
Dr Nysizli's estimate ----------------------------------- 20,000 a day.

However, these were 1951 figures, for the 1940s, let's make it a hour 
per corpse:-  

46 * 24 = 1104 a day. 

A bit short of the SS estimate of       ------------------ 4,756 a day. 
And a little short of the Polish Commission's estimate of 12,000 a day. 
Hoess the commandant of Auschwitz, he's wrong again------ 16,000 a day. 
Inmate Olga lengel's estimate --------------------------- 17,280 a day.
Dr Nysizli's estimate ----------------------------------- 20,000 a day.


However, let's not be a intellectual zero like Roberts or Baron, and complain that even these figures are unrealistic, let's remember that the Nazis [or the Jewish Sonderkommando who actually operated the retorts, who worked hard and were highly traine
, and were next for gassing] stuck 3 
corpses in at a time, in every retort, right through those 24 hours, despite the fact the retorts were designed for single corpse cremation, and did it flat out with no problems, no maintenance, no warming up, no cooling down, etc. 

Now let us IGNORE the idea that this might take 3 times as long, and say it will take the SAME time as for 1 corpse, as everyone knows it will, otherwise we may be classed as intellectual zeros, and we wouldn't want that would we.  

1) Best possible rate [1951] 46 * 48 = 6624. [10 minutes per corpse]

2) Next best rate [1951]     46 * 32 = 4416. [15 minutes per corpse]

3) 1940's rate               46 * 24 = 3312. [20 minutes per corpse]

At last the forged SS letter estimate is in range.  ------ 4,756 a day. 
But a little short of the Polish Commission's estimate of 12,000 a day. 
Hoess the commandant of Auschwitz, he's wrong again------ 16,000 a day. 
Inmate Olga lengel's estimate --------------------------- 17,280 a day.
Dr Nysizli's estimate ----------------------------------- 20,000 a day.


Now that's better, that SS estimate now FITS.


Back to sleep.
 

PS: Comment, Jamie?

-- 
Jeff
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------







From jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca Sun Aug  6 18:46:04 PDT 1995
Article: 25133 of alt.revisionism
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From: jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: CREMATION RATE AT BIRKENAU LUDICROUS says Keren
Date: Fri, 04 Aug 1995 17:37:13 GMT
Organization: University of Alberta
Lines: 148
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Jeff  wrote:

[quoted text reformatted for 80 column display: if anything's missing
it's not my fault]

>dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) writes:
>> There's BTW a patent, submitted by the very same Topf firm
>> in 1951, which gives a cremation time of 30-45 minutes
>> per corpse. It is not the same type of furnace as the
>> one used in Birkenau, but this figure obviously means
>> a lot, assuming the science of cremation has not made
>> a quantum leap right after the war. Once more, the
>> revisionazis have failed to do their homework."

>So let's use Karen's figures to work out the crematory rates for 
>Birkenau, after all, he knows better than Ivan Lagace, an "intellectual 
>zero" who was granted Expert status on Cremation at the Zundel trial, 

>["Lagace estimated that the 46 retorts at Birkenau could handle about 184 
>bodies daily, or four apiece." (Holocaust on Trial Page 239)]

Operators of funerary crematoria are very concerned that the bodies
are burned thoroughly and that the ashes are not mixed with the ashes
>from  other bodies. The four bodies a day figure allows for heating up
and cooling down of the retorts and for clean up and funeral services.
None of these considerations concerned the SS who only had it in mind
to incinerate as many bodies as possible in as short a time as
possible. Although at Kulmhof, Oberwachtmeister Bruno Israel's
testimony on burning techniques might be applicable to Auschwitz, too:
"The bodies burned quickly, and new ones were continually being thrown
in" (cited in Kogon, et al., _Nazi Mass Murder_, Yale UP, 1993).

It might help clarify the situation if we called the crematorias
"incinerators" instead, for that is what they were.

>Lagace is obviously a Neo-Nazi liar or Neo-Nazi ignoramus or more 
>likely - a Neo-Nazi lying ignoramus.


>There was 46 retorts at Auschwitz II (Birkenau).

>At the best possible rate [on 1951 figures], flat out with no problems, no maintenance, no warming up, no cooling down, no tea breaks, etc 
>at 30 minutes per corpse the 46 retorts at Birkenau would have cremated:-

>46 * 24 * 2 = 2208 corpses a day.  

You realize, of course, that this figure allows for the incineration
of 805,920 in the course of a year which is certainly in the ballpark
for the best estimates of the numbers of people murdered at Auschwitz.

Now what if you incinerate the body of a child at the same time as you
incinerate an adult? Using your figures we now have an incineration
capacity in the neighbourhood of 4400 per day. That, by the way,
allows a theortical incineration capacity in excess of the best
estimates of the numbers of person murdered at Auschwitz. Add in the
six retorts at Auschwitz I at the same rate, and you have a capacity
of around 4900.

>A bit short of the SS estimate of 4,756 a day. 
>[letter from SS-SturmbannfuehrerJahrling to SS-General Kammler, June 
>25 1943, see "Auschwitz: Technique and operation of the gas chambers" - 
>J.C Pressac,the Beate Klarsfeld Foundation, NY, 1989, p. 247] 

>And a little short of the Polish Commission of Inquiry's estimate of 
>12,000 a day. [The Final Solution [1968]; Reitlinger page 159]

>And even Hoess the commandant of Auschwitz, who seems to have a lot of 
>problems with numbers  -------- 16,000 a day. 
>[The Final Solution [1968]; Reitlinger page 159]

Maybe you should have read the rest of the footnote on page 160 where
Dr. Bendel refers to the pit burning capacity as 1000 per hour. You
can work out the arithmetic as well as I can.

>And just a little bit short of inmate Olga lengel's estimate of 17,280 
>a day. ("Five chimmeys" P68 cited in; Destruction of the European Jews 
>1961 Hilberg page 629) 

Sorry. Can't find this in the definitive 1985 edition. I suggest you
use up to date sources. Or are you just picking up citations from some
crappy little pamphlets from the IHR?

>And just a little bit short of Dr Nysizli's estimate of 20,000 a day.
>[The Final Solution [1968]; Reitlinger page 159]

Yes, you can do the arithmetic as well as I can.

>At the next possible rate [on 1951 figures], flat out with no 
>problems, no maintenance, no warming up, no cooling down, and no tea 
>breaks, etc at 45 minutes per corpse the 46 retorts at Birkenau would 
>have cremated:-

Tea breaks. Cute. "On August 30, 1944 878 men [the Sonderkommando]
were employed in two shifts labeled simply 'day' and 'night'" (cited
in Hilberg, _The Destruction_, 1985). If you want to play arithmetic
games tell me how I figured out that that many men could have carried
more than 30,000 corpses to a burning pit in 24 hours (hint: two men
carrying one corpse between them very five minutes). Burning pits?
Nobody said that every single body was disposed of in the crematoria.
Because there was "no warming up, no cooling down," the crematoria
were subject to frequent breakdowns. But I guess you thought you could
ignore the burning pits because you don't believe in them.

[More clever arithmetic deleted]

>However, let's not be a intellectual zero like Roberts or Baron, and 

Poor lamb!

>complain that even these figures are unrealistic, let's remember that 
>the Nazis [or the Jewish Sonderkommando who actually operated the 
>retorts, who worked hard and were highly traine
>, and were next for gassing] stuck 3 corpses in at a time, in every 
>retort, right through those 24 hours, despite the fact the retorts 
>were designed for single corpse cremation, and did it flat out with no 
>problems, no maintenance, no warming up, no cooling down, etc. 

878 men. Two shifts. @ one body between two men every five minutes.
More than 30,000 in 24 hours. In pits. Fater than Kremas. Kremas
eventually abandoned because pits more efficient.

>Now let us IGNORE the idea that this might take 3 times as long, and 
>say it will take the SAME time as for 1 corpse, as everyone knows it 
>will, otherwise we may be classed as intellectual zeros, and we 
>wouldn't want that would we.  

Hmm. The bodies of three children would take 3 times longer than one
adult. Do favour us with some aritmetic here.

The main point is that no matter how you play "Jeff's Fun With
Numbers," Jeff's figures temselves can show that the Kremas alone had
the *theoretical* capacity to dispose of far more bodies than anyone
has reasonably claimed were actually murdered at Auschwitz. But, of
course, the Kremas did not dispose of that many bodies by temselves.
They were eventually abandoned in favour of burning pits.

>Back to sleep.

"Back" to sleep? When did you wake up, Al?

--
 John Morris                               
 at University of Alberta     
------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
 The Nizkor Project: An Electronic Holocaust Resource
  File archives - ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca
  Web page - http://nizkor.almanac.bc.ca



From dkeren@world.std.com Sun Aug  6 18:46:07 PDT 1995
Article: 25136 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
Subject: Re: CREMATION RATE AT BIRKENAU LUDICROUS says Keren
Message-ID: 
Organization: The World, Public Access Internet, Brookline, MA
References:   <875291222wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk> <881071382wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 4 Aug 1995 17:58:19 GMT
Lines: 30

Jeff   wrote:

# Lagace is obviously a Neo-Nazi liar or Neo-Nazi ignoramus
# or more likely - a Neo-Nazi lying ignoramus.

Yeh, whatever.

# At the best possible rate [on 1951 figures], flat out with
# no problems, no maintenance, no warming up, no cooling down, no 
# tea breaks, etc at 30 minutes per corpse the 46 retorts at
#  Birkenau would have cremated:-

# 46 * 24 * 2 = 2208 corpses a day.  

Wrong again, Roberts forgets that more than one corpse was
cremated in each furnace. 

Especially easy since there were so many infants and children
among the victims.

This is probably what the 4,756 estimate by the SS experts
was based upon.

But what do THEY know? They only built the furnaces,
experimented with them, and ran them - right? Roberts MUST
know better than them, right?


-Danny Keren.



From dkeren@world.std.com Sun Aug  6 18:46:09 PDT 1995
Article: 25137 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
Subject: Re: EXPERT? HE'S LYING OR IGNORANT; IDIOT AWARD to MR KEREN
Message-ID: 
Organization: The World, Public Access Internet, Brookline, MA
References:   <875291222wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk> <573176855wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 4 Aug 1995 17:49:50 GMT
Lines: 30

Jeff   wrote:

[Legace's testimony re cremation rates]

As usual, Roberts has nothing to respond with; so he simply
reposts his dreck and throws some smart-ass remarks.

For instance, I mentioned a patent submitted by Topf - yes,
the very same firm that designed and built the Birkenau
crematoriums - in 1951. They give a cremation time of
30-45 minutes. I don't believe the "science of cremation"
has made a quantum leap right after the war; it is therefore
reasonable to assume similar cremation rates were obtained
at Birkeanu during the war. More so, since this is supported
by numerous witnesses and documents, such as the letter from 
Jahrling to Kammler, giving the cremation capacity of the
5 crematoriums as 4,756 per 24 working hours.

Also, since so many of those killed were infants and children,
there was no problem to cremate a few corpses in one
muffle simultaneously. Obviosuly, no one will do this
today under normal circumstances, due to respect for
the dead, something which certainly didn't bother the SS.

In short, Robets, answer these arguments or shut your trap.
Don't just repost your garbage again and again.


-Danny Keren.



From bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu Tue Aug  8 00:38:04 PDT 1995
Article: 30377 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu!miavx1!news.muohio.edu!miavx1!bpharmon
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: CREMATION RATE AT BIRKENAU LUDICROUS says Keren
Message-ID: <1995Aug6.233138@miavx1>
From: bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu (Raskolnikov)
Date: 6 Aug 95 23:31:38 -0500
References:   
  
 <875291222wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk> <881071382wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
Organization: Miami University
NNTP-Posting-Host: miavx1.acs.muohio.edu
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In article <881071382wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>, Jeff  writes:
> dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) writes:
>> There's BTW a patent, submitted by the very same Topf firm
>> in 1951, which gives a cremation time of 30-45 minutes
>> per corpse. It is not the same type of furnace as the
>> one used in Birkenau, but this figure obviously means
>> a lot, assuming the science of cremation has not made
>> a quantum leap right after the war. Once more, the
>> revisionazis have failed to do their homework."
> 
> So let's use Karen's figures to work out the crematory rates for 
> Birkenau, after all, he knows better than Ivan Lagace, an "intellectual 
> zero" who was granted Expert status on Cremation at the Zundel trial, 
> 
> ["Lagace estimated that the 46 retorts at Birkenau could handle about 184 
> bodies daily, or four apiece." (Holocaust on Trial Page 239)]
> 
> Lagace is obviously a Neo-Nazi liar or Neo-Nazi ignoramus or more 
> likely - a Neo-Nazi lying ignoramus.

Er, no.  Sounds more than likely that Mr. Lagace was 
making an errouneous comparison.  It seems that he was 
treating the Auschwitz Crematoria as if they were run 
like a modern funeral home.

IN a modern funeral home, you only burn one corpse at a 
time, and it is taken very seriously so as to be respectful
to the deceased and his or her family.  

At an extermination facility like Auschwitz, such things were
not a consideration.

> There was 46 retorts at Auschwitz II (Birkenau).
> 
> At the best possible rate [on 1951 figures], flat out with no problems, no maintenance, no warming up, no cooling down, no tea breaks, etc 
> at 30 minutes per corpse the 46 retorts at Birkenau would have cremated:-
> 
> 46 * 24 * 2 = 2208 corpses a day.  
> 
> A bit short of the SS estimate of 4,756 a day. 
> [letter from SS-SturmbannfuehrerJahrling to SS-General Kammler, June 25 1943, see "Auschwitz:Technique and operation of the gas chambers" - J.C Pressac,the Beate Klarsfeld Foundation, NY, 1989, p. 247] 

You're assuming they only placed one corpse in the oven at a time.

If two corpses go in, the number you listed doubles.  That places us at 
4,416 per day.  Stunningly close to the 4,756 figure, don't you think?

Also, I have read elsewhere that there were fifty-two ovens, 
not 46.

[snip]

> At the next possible rate [on 1951 figures], flat out with no problems, no maintenance, no warming up, no cooling down, and no tea breaks, etc 
> at 45 minutes per corpse the 46 retorts at Birkenau would have cremated:-
> 
> 46 * 32 = 1472 corpses per day.  

You still assume only one corpse can fit in at a time.


> However, these were 1951 figures, for the 1940s, let's make it a hour 
> per corpse:-  
> 
> 46 * 24 = 1104 a day. 

Why should we?  What makes you so certain that it must take 
at least an hour to burn a corpse when the Crematoria is 
running at full tilt?

(note 2 corpses/oven = 2208, 3 =  3312, 4 = 4416, even at 
 the rate of one corpse an hour.)


> However, let's not be a intellectual zero like Roberts or Baron, and complain 
> that even these figures are unrealistic, let's remember that the Nazis [or the 
> Jewish Sonderkommando who actually operated the retorts, who worked hard and were highly traine
> , and were next for gassing] stuck 3 
> corpses in at a time, in every retort, right through those 24 hours, despite the fact 
> the retorts were designed for single corpse cremation, and did it flat out with no 
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> problems, no maintenance, no warming up, no cooling down, etc. 

How do you know this, and what would that mean?

-- Brian




From bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu Tue Aug  8 23:17:26 PDT 1995
Article: 30377 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu!miavx1!news.muohio.edu!miavx1!bpharmon
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: CREMATION RATE AT BIRKENAU LUDICROUS says Keren
Message-ID: <1995Aug6.233138@miavx1>
From: bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu (Raskolnikov)
Date: 6 Aug 95 23:31:38 -0500
References:   
  
 <875291222wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk> <881071382wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
Organization: Miami University
NNTP-Posting-Host: miavx1.acs.muohio.edu
Lines: 87

In article <881071382wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>, Jeff  writes:
> dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) writes:
>> There's BTW a patent, submitted by the very same Topf firm
>> in 1951, which gives a cremation time of 30-45 minutes
>> per corpse. It is not the same type of furnace as the
>> one used in Birkenau, but this figure obviously means
>> a lot, assuming the science of cremation has not made
>> a quantum leap right after the war. Once more, the
>> revisionazis have failed to do their homework."
> 
> So let's use Karen's figures to work out the crematory rates for 
> Birkenau, after all, he knows better than Ivan Lagace, an "intellectual 
> zero" who was granted Expert status on Cremation at the Zundel trial, 
> 
> ["Lagace estimated that the 46 retorts at Birkenau could handle about 184 
> bodies daily, or four apiece." (Holocaust on Trial Page 239)]
> 
> Lagace is obviously a Neo-Nazi liar or Neo-Nazi ignoramus or more 
> likely - a Neo-Nazi lying ignoramus.

Er, no.  Sounds more than likely that Mr. Lagace was 
making an errouneous comparison.  It seems that he was 
treating the Auschwitz Crematoria as if they were run 
like a modern funeral home.

IN a modern funeral home, you only burn one corpse at a 
time, and it is taken very seriously so as to be respectful
to the deceased and his or her family.  

At an extermination facility like Auschwitz, such things were
not a consideration.

> There was 46 retorts at Auschwitz II (Birkenau).
> 
> At the best possible rate [on 1951 figures], flat out with no problems, no maintenance, no warming up, no cooling down, no tea breaks, etc 
> at 30 minutes per corpse the 46 retorts at Birkenau would have cremated:-
> 
> 46 * 24 * 2 = 2208 corpses a day.  
> 
> A bit short of the SS estimate of 4,756 a day. 
> [letter from SS-SturmbannfuehrerJahrling to SS-General Kammler, June 25 1943, see "Auschwitz:Technique and operation of the gas chambers" - J.C Pressac,the Beate Klarsfeld Foundation, NY, 1989, p. 247] 

You're assuming they only placed one corpse in the oven at a time.

If two corpses go in, the number you listed doubles.  That places us at 
4,416 per day.  Stunningly close to the 4,756 figure, don't you think?

Also, I have read elsewhere that there were fifty-two ovens, 
not 46.

[snip]

> At the next possible rate [on 1951 figures], flat out with no problems, no maintenance, no warming up, no cooling down, and no tea breaks, etc 
> at 45 minutes per corpse the 46 retorts at Birkenau would have cremated:-
> 
> 46 * 32 = 1472 corpses per day.  

You still assume only one corpse can fit in at a time.


> However, these were 1951 figures, for the 1940s, let's make it a hour 
> per corpse:-  
> 
> 46 * 24 = 1104 a day. 

Why should we?  What makes you so certain that it must take 
at least an hour to burn a corpse when the Crematoria is 
running at full tilt?

(note 2 corpses/oven = 2208, 3 =  3312, 4 = 4416, even at 
 the rate of one corpse an hour.)


> However, let's not be a intellectual zero like Roberts or Baron, and complain 
> that even these figures are unrealistic, let's remember that the Nazis [or the 
> Jewish Sonderkommando who actually operated the retorts, who worked hard and were highly traine
> , and were next for gassing] stuck 3 
> corpses in at a time, in every retort, right through those 24 hours, despite the fact 
> the retorts were designed for single corpse cremation, and did it flat out with no 
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> problems, no maintenance, no warming up, no cooling down, etc. 

How do you know this, and what would that mean?

-- Brian




From joelr@winternet.com Wed Aug  9 08:16:11 PDT 1995
Article: 30587 of alt.revisionism
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From: joelr@winternet.com (Joel Rosenberg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What is 'Holocaust Denial'?
Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 22:41:16
Organization: StarNet Communications, Inc
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References: 
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In article  greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) writes:


>What is "Holocaust Denial"?

It's a manifestation of anti-Semitism.   Hope this helps.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Joel Rosenberg       | For news about upcoming books,  | My opinions are mine.
joelr@winternet.com  | finger joelr@winternet.com      | Whose are yours?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From joelr@winternet.com Wed Aug  9 08:16:16 PDT 1995
Article: 30588 of alt.revisionism
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From: joelr@winternet.com (Joel Rosenberg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Auschwitz: Myths and Facts
Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 22:42:25
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In article  greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) writes:

>Auschwitz: Myths and Facts

>by Mark Weber

>Nearly everyone has heard of Auschwitz, the German concentration camp
>where great numbers of Jews and others were reportedly exterminated in gas
>chambers during the Second World War.

>Auschwitz is widely regarded as the most terrible Nazi extermination
>center. This image, however, cannot be reconciled with the facts.

Which of the Nazi death camps would you claim is worse, and why?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Joel Rosenberg       | For news about upcoming books,  | My opinions are mine.
joelr@winternet.com  | finger joelr@winternet.com      | Whose are yours?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mstein@access2.digex.net Wed Aug  9 08:16:23 PDT 1995
Article: 30593 of alt.revisionism
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From: mstein@access2.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Auschwitz: Myths and Facts
Date: 9 Aug 1995 00:41:29 -0400
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References:  
NNTP-Posting-Host: access2.digex.net

In article ,
Joel Rosenberg  wrote:
>In article 
>greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) writes:
>
>>Auschwitz: Myths and Facts
>
>>by Mark Weber
>
>>Nearly everyone has heard of Auschwitz, the German concentration camp
>>where great numbers of Jews and others were reportedly exterminated in gas
>>chambers during the Second World War.
>
>>Auschwitz is widely regarded as the most terrible Nazi extermination
>>center. This image, however, cannot be reconciled with the facts.
>
>Which of the Nazi death camps would you claim is worse, and why?

    I happen to agree with Greg on this one.  I would pick Belzec.  While
more people perished at Auschwitz, Belzec achieved near totality of
extermination.  Of the hundreds of thousands sent there, only two
survivors were ever identified. 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From greg.ihr@kaiwan.com Wed Aug  9 08:16:33 PDT 1995
Article: 30597 of alt.revisionism
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: What is 'Holocaust Denial'?
Date: 8 Aug 1995 14:12:34 GMT
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 326
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NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan077.kaiwan.com

What is "Holocaust Denial"?

In recent years, more and more attention has been devoted to the supposed
danger of "Holocaust denial." Politicians, newspapers and television warn
about the growing influence of those who reject the Holocaust story that
some six million European Jews were systematically exterminated during the
Second World War, most of them in gas chambers.

In several countries, including Israel, France, Germany and Austria,
"Holocaust denial" is against the law, and "deniers" have been punished
with stiff fines and prison sentences. Some frantic Jewish community
leaders are calling for similar government measures in North America
against so-called "deniers." In Canada, David Matas, Senior Counsel for
the "League for Human Rights" of the Zionist B'nai B'rith organization,
says: (note 1)

The Holocaust was the murder of six million Jews, including two million
children. Holocaust denial is a second murder of those same six million.
First their lives were extinguished; then their deaths. A person who
denies the Holocaust becomes part of the crime of the Holocaust itself.

Often overlooked in this controversy is the crucial question: Just what
constitutes "Holocaust denial"?

Six Million?

Should someone be considered a "Holocaust denier" because he does not
believe -- as Matas and others insist -- that six million Jews were killed
during World War II? This figure was cited by the International Military
Tribunal at Nuremberg in 1945-1946. It found that "the policy pursued [by
the German government] resulted in the killing of six million Jews, of
which four million were killed in the extermination institutions." (note
2)

Yet if that is so, then several of the most prominent Holocaust historians
could be regarded as "deniers." Professor Raul Hilberg, author of the
standard reference work, The Destruction of the European Jews, does not
accept that six million Jews died. He puts the total of deaths (from all
causes) at 5.1 million. Gerald Reitlinger, author of The Final Solution,
likewise did not accept the six million figure. He estimated the figure of
Jewish wartime dead might be as high as 4.6 million, but admitted that
this was conjectural due to a lack of reliable information.

Human Soap?

Is someone a "Holocaust denier" if he says that the Nazis didn't use
Jewish fat to make soap? After examining all the evidence (including an
actual bar of soap supplied by the Soviets), the Nuremberg Tribunal
declared in its Judgment that "in some instances attempts were made to
utilize the fat from the bodies of the victims in the commercial
manufacture of soap." (note 3)

In 1990, though, Israel's official "Yad Vashem" Holocaust memorial agency
"rewrote history" by admitting that the soap story was not true.
"Historians have concluded that soap was not made from human fat. When so
many people deny the Holocaust ever happened, why give them something to
use against the truth?," said Yad Vashem official Shmuel Krakowski. (note
4)

Wannsee Conference?

Is someone a "Holocaust denier" if he does not accept that the January
1942 "Wannsee conference" of German bureaucrats was held to set or
coordinate a program of systematic mass murder of Europe's Jews? If so,
Israeli Holocaust historian Yehuda Bauer must be wrong -- and a "Holocaust
denier" -- because he recently declared: "The public still repeats, time
after time, the silly story that at Wannsee the extermination of the Jews
was arrived at." In Bauer's opinion, Wannsee was a meeting but "hardly a
conference" and "little of what was said there was executed in detail."
(note 5)

Extermination Policy?

Is someone a "Holocaust denier" if he says that there was no order by
Hitler to exterminate Europe's Jews? There was a time when the answer
would have been yes. Holocaust historian Raul Hilberg, for example, wrote
in the 1961 edition of his study, The Destruction of the European Jews,
that there were two Hitler orders for the destruction of Europe's Jews:
the first given in the spring of 1941, and the second shortly thereafter.
But Hilberg removed mention of any such order from the revised,
three-volume edition of his book published in 1985. (note 6) As Holocaust
historian Christopher Browning has noted: (note 7)

In the new edition, all references in the text to a Hitler decision or
Hitler order for the "Final Solution" have been systematically excised.
Buried at the bottom of a single footnote stands the solitary reference:
"Chronology and circumstances point to a Hitler decision before the summer
ended." In the new edition, decisions were not made and orders were not
given.

A lack of hard evidence for an extermination order by Hitler has
contributed to a controversy that divides Holocaust historians into
"intentionalists" and "functionalists." The former contend that there was
a premeditated extermination policy ordered by Hitler, while the latter
hold that Germany's wartime "final solution" Jewish policy evolved at
lower levels in response to circumstances. But the crucial point here is
this: notwithstanding the capture of literally tons of German documents
after the war, no one can point to documentary evidence of a wartime
extermination order, plan or program. This was admitted by Professor
Hilberg during his testimony in the 1985 trial in Toronto of
German-Canadian publisher Ernst Zuendel. (note 8)

Auschwitz

So just what constitutes "Holocaust denial"? Surely a claim that most
Auschwitz inmates died from disease and not systematic extermination in
gas chambers would be "denial." But perhaps not. Jewish historian Arno J.
Mayer, a Princeton University professor, wrote in his 1988 study Why Did
the Heavens Not Darken?: The "Final Solution" in History: " . . . From
1942 to 1945, certainly at Auschwitz, but probably overall, more Jews were
killed by so-called 'natural' causes than by 'unnatural' ones." (note 9)

Even estimates of the number of people who died at Auschwitz -- allegedly
the main extermination center -- are no longer clear cut. At the postwar
Nuremberg Tribunal, the Allies charged that the Germans exterminated four
million people at Auschwitz. (note 10) Until 1990, a memorial plaque at
Auschwitz read: "Four Million People Suffered and Died Here at the Hands
of the Nazi Murderers Between the Years 1940 and 1945." (note 11) During a
1979 visit to the camp, Pope John Paul II stood before this memorial and
blessed the four million victims.

Is it "Holocaust denial" to dispute these four million deaths? Not today.
In July 1990, the Polish government's Auschwitz State Museum, along with
Israel's Yad Vashem Holocaust center, conceded that the four million
figure was a gross exaggeration, and references to it were accordingly
removed from the Auschwitz monument. Israeli and Polish officials
announced a tentative revised toll of 1.1 million Auschwitz dead. (note
12) In 1993, French Holocaust researcher Jean-Claude Pressac, in a
much-discussed book about Auschwitz, estimated that altogether about
775,000 died there during the war years. (note 13)

Professor Mayer acknowledges that the question of how many really died in
Auschwitz remains open. In Why Did the Heavens Not Darken? he wrote (p.
366):

. . . Many questions remain open . . . All in all, how many bodies were
cremated in Auschwitz? How many died there all told? What was the
national, religious, and ethnic breakdown in this commonwealth of victims?
How many of them were condemned to die a 'natural' death and how many were
deliberately slaughtered? And what was the proportion of Jews among those
murdered in cold blood among these gassed? We have simply no answers to
these questions at this time.

Gas Chambers

What about denying the existence of extermination "gas chambers"? Here
too, Mayer makes a startling statement (on page 362 of his book): "Sources
for the study of the gas chambers are at once rare and unreliable." While
Mayer believes that such chambers did exist at Auschwitz, he points out
that

most of what is known is based on the depositions of Nazi officials and
executioners at postwar trials and on the memory of survivors and
bystanders. This testimony must be screened carefully, since it can be
influenced by subjective factors of great complexity.

Hoess Testimony

One example of this might be the testimony of Rudolf Hoess, an SS officer
who served as commandant of Auschwitz. In its Judgment, the Nuremberg
International Military Tribunal quoted at length from his testimony to
support its findings of extermination. (note 14)

It is now well established that Hoess' crucial testimony, as well as his
so-called "confession" (which was also cited by the Nuremberg Tribunal),
are not only false, but were obtained by beating the former commandant
nearly to death. (note 15) Hoess' wife and children were also threatened
with death and deportation to Siberia. In his statement -- which would not
be admissible today in any United States court of law -- Hoess claimed the
existence of an extermination camp called "Wolzek." In fact, no such camp
ever existed. He further claimed that during the time that he was
commandant of Auschwitz, two and a half million people were exterminated
there, and that a further half million died of disease. (note 16) Today no
reputable historian upholds these figures. Hoess was obviously willing to
say anything, sign anything and do anything to stop the torture, and to
try to save himself and his family.

Forensic Investigations

In his 1988 book, Professor Mayer calls for "excavations at the killing
sites and in their immediate environs" to determine more about the gas
chambers. In fact, such forensic studies have been made. The first was
conducted in 1988 by American execution equipment consultant, Fred A.
Leuchter, Jr. He carried out an on-site forensic examination of the
alleged gas chambers at Auschwitz, Birkenau and Majdanek to determine if
they could have been used to kill people as claimed. After a careful study
of the alleged killing facilities, Leuchter concluded that the sites were
not used, and could not have been used, as homicidal gas chambers.
Furthermore, an analysis of samples taken by Leuchter from the walls and
floors of the alleged gas chambers showed either no or minuscule traces of
cyanide compound, from the active ingredient of Zyklon B, the pesticide
allegedly used to murder Jews at Auschwitz. (note 17)

A confidential forensic examination (and subsequent report) commissioned
by the Auschwitz State Museum and conducted by Institute of Forensic
Research in Krakow has confirmed Leuchter's finding that minimal or no
traces of cyanide compound can be found in the sites alleged to have been
gas chambers. (note 18)

The significance of this is evident when the results of the forensic
examination of the alleged homicidal gas chambers are compared with the
results of the examination of the Auschwitz disinfestation facilities,
where Zyklon B was used to delouse mattresses and clothing. Whereas no or
only trace amounts of cyanide were found in the alleged homicidal gas
chambers, massive traces of cyanide were found in the walls and floor in
the camp's disinfestation delousing chambers.

Another forensic study has been carried out by German chemist Germar
Rudolf. On the basis of his on-site examination and analysis of samples,
the certified chemist and doctoral candidate concluded: "For
chemical-technical reasons, the claimed mass gassings with hydrocyanic
acid in the alleged 'gas chambers' in Auschwitz did not take place . . .
The supposed facilities for mass killing in Auschwitz and Birkenau were
not suitable for this purpose . . ." (note 19)

Finally, there is the study of Austrian engineer Walter Lueftl, a
respected expert witness in numerous court cases, and former president of
Austria's professional association of engineers. In a 1992 report he
called the alleged mass extermination of Jews in gas chambers "technically
impossible." (note 20)

Discredited Perspective

So just what constitutes "Holocaust denial"? Those who advocate criminal
persecution of "Holocaust deniers" seem to be still living in the world of
1946 where the Allied officials of the Nuremberg Tribunal have just
pronounced their verdict. But the Tribunal's findings can no longer be
assumed to be valid. Because it relied so heavily on such untrustworthy
evidence as the Hoess testimony, some of its most critical findings are
now discredited.

For purposes of their own, powerful special interest groups desperately
seek to keep substantive discussion of the Holocaust story taboo. One of
the ways they do this is by purposely mischaracterizing revisionist
scholars as "deniers." But the truth can't be suppressed forever: There is
a very real and growing controversy about what actually happened to
Europe's Jews during World War II.

Let this issue be settled as all great historical controversies are
resolved: through free inquiry and open debate in our journals, newspapers
and classrooms.

NOTES

1.  Globe and Mail (Toronto), Jan. 22, 1992.

2.  Trial of the Major War Criminals Before the International Military
Tribunal (IMT "blue series"), Vol. 22, p. 496.

3.  IMT "blue series," Vol. 22, p. 496.

4.  Globe and Mail (Toronto), April 25, 1990; See also: M. Weber, "Jewish
Soap," The Journal of Historical Review, Summer 1991.

5.  Canadian Jewish News (Toronto), Jan. 30, 1992.

6.  See: Barbara Kulaszka, ed., Did Six Million Really Die: Report of the
Evidence in the Canadian "False News" Trial of Ernst Zuendel (Toronto:
Samisdat, 1992), pp. 192, 300, 349.

7.  "The Revised Hilberg," Simon Wiesenthal Annual, Vol. 3, 1986, p. 294.

8.  B. Kulaszka, ed., Did Six Million Really Die (Toronto: 1992), pp. 24-25.

9.  A. Mayer, Why Did the Heavens Not Darken?: The "Final Solution" in
History (Pantheon, 1988), p. 365.

10.  Nuremberg document 008-USSR.; IMT "blue series," Vol. 39, pp. 241, 261.

11.  B. Kulaszka, ed., Did Six Million Really Die (Toronto: 1992), p. 441.

12.  Y. Bauer, "Fighting the Distortions," Jerusalem Post (Israel), Sept.
22, 1989; Auschwitz Deaths Reduced to a Million," Daily Telegraph
(London), July 17, 1990; "Poland Reduces Auschwitz Death Toll Estimate to
1 Million," The Washington Times, July 17, 1990.

13.   J.-C. Pressac, Les Crémetoires d'Auschwitz: La machinerie du meurtre
de masse (Paris: CNRS, 1993). See also: R. Faurisson, "Jean-Claude
Pressac's New Auschwitz Book," The Journal of Historical Review, Jan.-Feb.
1994, p. 24.

14.  IMT "blue series," Vol. 22, p. 485; Nuremberg document 3868-PS
(USA-819), in IMT "blue series," Vol. 33, pp. 275-279.

15.  Rupert Butler, Legions of Death (England: 1983), pp. 235-237; C.
Hitchens, "Whose History is it?," Vanity Fair (New York), Dec. 1993, p.
117.

16.  See: R. Faurisson, "How the British Obtained the Confession of Rudolf
Hoess," The Journal of Historical Review, Winter 1986-87, pp. 389-403.

17.  A deluxe edition of The Leuchter Report is available from the IHR for
$20.00, plus $2.00 shipping.

18.  The complete text of this report was published in English in The
Journal of Historical Review, Summer 1991.

19.  G. Rudolf, Gutachten ueber die Bildung und Nachweisbarkeit von
Cyanidverbindungen in den "Gaskammern" von Auschwitz (London: 1993). See:
The Journal of Historical Review, Nov.-Dec. 1993, pp. 25-26.

20.  "The 'Lueftl Report'," The Journal of Historical Review, Winter 1992-93.

4/94

This article is adapted from an essay originally distributed in 1992 by
The Canadian Free Speech League (P.O. Box 40143, Victoria, B.C. V8W 3N3),
a federally incorporated, not-for-profit association that has helped with
the legal defense of Ernst Zuendel, among others. 

Send $2 for a packet of literature and full listing of books and audio-
and video-tapes. Or, order more copies of this leaflet, postpaid, at the
following prices:

10 copies: $2.00 -- 50 copies: $5.00
100 copies or more 8 cents each

INSTITUTE FOR HISTORICAL REVIEW
Post Office Box 2739
Newport Beach, California 92659

-- 
Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
Or, come visit my home page at http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr
The Institute for Historical Review can be reached at:
P.O. Box 241556, Newport Beach, CA 92659


From joelr@winternet.com Wed Aug  9 12:34:50 PDT 1995
Article: 30587 of alt.revisionism
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From: joelr@winternet.com (Joel Rosenberg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What is 'Holocaust Denial'?
Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 22:41:16
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In article  greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) writes:


>What is "Holocaust Denial"?

It's a manifestation of anti-Semitism.   Hope this helps.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Joel Rosenberg       | For news about upcoming books,  | My opinions are mine.
joelr@winternet.com  | finger joelr@winternet.com      | Whose are yours?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From joelr@winternet.com Wed Aug  9 12:34:55 PDT 1995
Article: 30588 of alt.revisionism
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From: joelr@winternet.com (Joel Rosenberg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Auschwitz: Myths and Facts
Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 22:42:25
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In article  greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) writes:

>Auschwitz: Myths and Facts

>by Mark Weber

>Nearly everyone has heard of Auschwitz, the German concentration camp
>where great numbers of Jews and others were reportedly exterminated in gas
>chambers during the Second World War.

>Auschwitz is widely regarded as the most terrible Nazi extermination
>center. This image, however, cannot be reconciled with the facts.

Which of the Nazi death camps would you claim is worse, and why?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Joel Rosenberg       | For news about upcoming books,  | My opinions are mine.
joelr@winternet.com  | finger joelr@winternet.com      | Whose are yours?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mstein@access2.digex.net Wed Aug  9 12:35:03 PDT 1995
Article: 30593 of alt.revisionism
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From: mstein@access2.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Auschwitz: Myths and Facts
Date: 9 Aug 1995 00:41:29 -0400
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In article ,
Joel Rosenberg  wrote:
>In article 
>greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) writes:
>
>>Auschwitz: Myths and Facts
>
>>by Mark Weber
>
>>Nearly everyone has heard of Auschwitz, the German concentration camp
>>where great numbers of Jews and others were reportedly exterminated in gas
>>chambers during the Second World War.
>
>>Auschwitz is widely regarded as the most terrible Nazi extermination
>>center. This image, however, cannot be reconciled with the facts.
>
>Which of the Nazi death camps would you claim is worse, and why?

    I happen to agree with Greg on this one.  I would pick Belzec.  While
more people perished at Auschwitz, Belzec achieved near totality of
extermination.  Of the hundreds of thousands sent there, only two
survivors were ever identified. 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From greg.ihr@kaiwan.com Wed Aug  9 12:35:13 PDT 1995
Article: 30597 of alt.revisionism
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: What is 'Holocaust Denial'?
Date: 8 Aug 1995 14:12:34 GMT
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
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What is "Holocaust Denial"?

In recent years, more and more attention has been devoted to the supposed
danger of "Holocaust denial." Politicians, newspapers and television warn
about the growing influence of those who reject the Holocaust story that
some six million European Jews were systematically exterminated during the
Second World War, most of them in gas chambers.

In several countries, including Israel, France, Germany and Austria,
"Holocaust denial" is against the law, and "deniers" have been punished
with stiff fines and prison sentences. Some frantic Jewish community
leaders are calling for similar government measures in North America
against so-called "deniers." In Canada, David Matas, Senior Counsel for
the "League for Human Rights" of the Zionist B'nai B'rith organization,
says: (note 1)

The Holocaust was the murder of six million Jews, including two million
children. Holocaust denial is a second murder of those same six million.
First their lives were extinguished; then their deaths. A person who
denies the Holocaust becomes part of the crime of the Holocaust itself.

Often overlooked in this controversy is the crucial question: Just what
constitutes "Holocaust denial"?

Six Million?

Should someone be considered a "Holocaust denier" because he does not
believe -- as Matas and others insist -- that six million Jews were killed
during World War II? This figure was cited by the International Military
Tribunal at Nuremberg in 1945-1946. It found that "the policy pursued [by
the German government] resulted in the killing of six million Jews, of
which four million were killed in the extermination institutions." (note
2)

Yet if that is so, then several of the most prominent Holocaust historians
could be regarded as "deniers." Professor Raul Hilberg, author of the
standard reference work, The Destruction of the European Jews, does not
accept that six million Jews died. He puts the total of deaths (from all
causes) at 5.1 million. Gerald Reitlinger, author of The Final Solution,
likewise did not accept the six million figure. He estimated the figure of
Jewish wartime dead might be as high as 4.6 million, but admitted that
this was conjectural due to a lack of reliable information.

Human Soap?

Is someone a "Holocaust denier" if he says that the Nazis didn't use
Jewish fat to make soap? After examining all the evidence (including an
actual bar of soap supplied by the Soviets), the Nuremberg Tribunal
declared in its Judgment that "in some instances attempts were made to
utilize the fat from the bodies of the victims in the commercial
manufacture of soap." (note 3)

In 1990, though, Israel's official "Yad Vashem" Holocaust memorial agency
"rewrote history" by admitting that the soap story was not true.
"Historians have concluded that soap was not made from human fat. When so
many people deny the Holocaust ever happened, why give them something to
use against the truth?," said Yad Vashem official Shmuel Krakowski. (note
4)

Wannsee Conference?

Is someone a "Holocaust denier" if he does not accept that the January
1942 "Wannsee conference" of German bureaucrats was held to set or
coordinate a program of systematic mass murder of Europe's Jews? If so,
Israeli Holocaust historian Yehuda Bauer must be wrong -- and a "Holocaust
denier" -- because he recently declared: "The public still repeats, time
after time, the silly story that at Wannsee the extermination of the Jews
was arrived at." In Bauer's opinion, Wannsee was a meeting but "hardly a
conference" and "little of what was said there was executed in detail."
(note 5)

Extermination Policy?

Is someone a "Holocaust denier" if he says that there was no order by
Hitler to exterminate Europe's Jews? There was a time when the answer
would have been yes. Holocaust historian Raul Hilberg, for example, wrote
in the 1961 edition of his study, The Destruction of the European Jews,
that there were two Hitler orders for the destruction of Europe's Jews:
the first given in the spring of 1941, and the second shortly thereafter.
But Hilberg removed mention of any such order from the revised,
three-volume edition of his book published in 1985. (note 6) As Holocaust
historian Christopher Browning has noted: (note 7)

In the new edition, all references in the text to a Hitler decision or
Hitler order for the "Final Solution" have been systematically excised.
Buried at the bottom of a single footnote stands the solitary reference:
"Chronology and circumstances point to a Hitler decision before the summer
ended." In the new edition, decisions were not made and orders were not
given.

A lack of hard evidence for an extermination order by Hitler has
contributed to a controversy that divides Holocaust historians into
"intentionalists" and "functionalists." The former contend that there was
a premeditated extermination policy ordered by Hitler, while the latter
hold that Germany's wartime "final solution" Jewish policy evolved at
lower levels in response to circumstances. But the crucial point here is
this: notwithstanding the capture of literally tons of German documents
after the war, no one can point to documentary evidence of a wartime
extermination order, plan or program. This was admitted by Professor
Hilberg during his testimony in the 1985 trial in Toronto of
German-Canadian publisher Ernst Zuendel. (note 8)

Auschwitz

So just what constitutes "Holocaust denial"? Surely a claim that most
Auschwitz inmates died from disease and not systematic extermination in
gas chambers would be "denial." But perhaps not. Jewish historian Arno J.
Mayer, a Princeton University professor, wrote in his 1988 study Why Did
the Heavens Not Darken?: The "Final Solution" in History: " . . . From
1942 to 1945, certainly at Auschwitz, but probably overall, more Jews were
killed by so-called 'natural' causes than by 'unnatural' ones." (note 9)

Even estimates of the number of people who died at Auschwitz -- allegedly
the main extermination center -- are no longer clear cut. At the postwar
Nuremberg Tribunal, the Allies charged that the Germans exterminated four
million people at Auschwitz. (note 10) Until 1990, a memorial plaque at
Auschwitz read: "Four Million People Suffered and Died Here at the Hands
of the Nazi Murderers Between the Years 1940 and 1945." (note 11) During a
1979 visit to the camp, Pope John Paul II stood before this memorial and
blessed the four million victims.

Is it "Holocaust denial" to dispute these four million deaths? Not today.
In July 1990, the Polish government's Auschwitz State Museum, along with
Israel's Yad Vashem Holocaust center, conceded that the four million
figure was a gross exaggeration, and references to it were accordingly
removed from the Auschwitz monument. Israeli and Polish officials
announced a tentative revised toll of 1.1 million Auschwitz dead. (note
12) In 1993, French Holocaust researcher Jean-Claude Pressac, in a
much-discussed book about Auschwitz, estimated that altogether about
775,000 died there during the war years. (note 13)

Professor Mayer acknowledges that the question of how many really died in
Auschwitz remains open. In Why Did the Heavens Not Darken? he wrote (p.
366):

. . . Many questions remain open . . . All in all, how many bodies were
cremated in Auschwitz? How many died there all told? What was the
national, religious, and ethnic breakdown in this commonwealth of victims?
How many of them were condemned to die a 'natural' death and how many were
deliberately slaughtered? And what was the proportion of Jews among those
murdered in cold blood among these gassed? We have simply no answers to
these questions at this time.

Gas Chambers

What about denying the existence of extermination "gas chambers"? Here
too, Mayer makes a startling statement (on page 362 of his book): "Sources
for the study of the gas chambers are at once rare and unreliable." While
Mayer believes that such chambers did exist at Auschwitz, he points out
that

most of what is known is based on the depositions of Nazi officials and
executioners at postwar trials and on the memory of survivors and
bystanders. This testimony must be screened carefully, since it can be
influenced by subjective factors of great complexity.

Hoess Testimony

One example of this might be the testimony of Rudolf Hoess, an SS officer
who served as commandant of Auschwitz. In its Judgment, the Nuremberg
International Military Tribunal quoted at length from his testimony to
support its findings of extermination. (note 14)

It is now well established that Hoess' crucial testimony, as well as his
so-called "confession" (which was also cited by the Nuremberg Tribunal),
are not only false, but were obtained by beating the former commandant
nearly to death. (note 15) Hoess' wife and children were also threatened
with death and deportation to Siberia. In his statement -- which would not
be admissible today in any United States court of law -- Hoess claimed the
existence of an extermination camp called "Wolzek." In fact, no such camp
ever existed. He further claimed that during the time that he was
commandant of Auschwitz, two and a half million people were exterminated
there, and that a further half million died of disease. (note 16) Today no
reputable historian upholds these figures. Hoess was obviously willing to
say anything, sign anything and do anything to stop the torture, and to
try to save himself and his family.

Forensic Investigations

In his 1988 book, Professor Mayer calls for "excavations at the killing
sites and in their immediate environs" to determine more about the gas
chambers. In fact, such forensic studies have been made. The first was
conducted in 1988 by American execution equipment consultant, Fred A.
Leuchter, Jr. He carried out an on-site forensic examination of the
alleged gas chambers at Auschwitz, Birkenau and Majdanek to determine if
they could have been used to kill people as claimed. After a careful study
of the alleged killing facilities, Leuchter concluded that the sites were
not used, and could not have been used, as homicidal gas chambers.
Furthermore, an analysis of samples taken by Leuchter from the walls and
floors of the alleged gas chambers showed either no or minuscule traces of
cyanide compound, from the active ingredient of Zyklon B, the pesticide
allegedly used to murder Jews at Auschwitz. (note 17)

A confidential forensic examination (and subsequent report) commissioned
by the Auschwitz State Museum and conducted by Institute of Forensic
Research in Krakow has confirmed Leuchter's finding that minimal or no
traces of cyanide compound can be found in the sites alleged to have been
gas chambers. (note 18)

The significance of this is evident when the results of the forensic
examination of the alleged homicidal gas chambers are compared with the
results of the examination of the Auschwitz disinfestation facilities,
where Zyklon B was used to delouse mattresses and clothing. Whereas no or
only trace amounts of cyanide were found in the alleged homicidal gas
chambers, massive traces of cyanide were found in the walls and floor in
the camp's disinfestation delousing chambers.

Another forensic study has been carried out by German chemist Germar
Rudolf. On the basis of his on-site examination and analysis of samples,
the certified chemist and doctoral candidate concluded: "For
chemical-technical reasons, the claimed mass gassings with hydrocyanic
acid in the alleged 'gas chambers' in Auschwitz did not take place . . .
The supposed facilities for mass killing in Auschwitz and Birkenau were
not suitable for this purpose . . ." (note 19)

Finally, there is the study of Austrian engineer Walter Lueftl, a
respected expert witness in numerous court cases, and former president of
Austria's professional association of engineers. In a 1992 report he
called the alleged mass extermination of Jews in gas chambers "technically
impossible." (note 20)

Discredited Perspective

So just what constitutes "Holocaust denial"? Those who advocate criminal
persecution of "Holocaust deniers" seem to be still living in the world of
1946 where the Allied officials of the Nuremberg Tribunal have just
pronounced their verdict. But the Tribunal's findings can no longer be
assumed to be valid. Because it relied so heavily on such untrustworthy
evidence as the Hoess testimony, some of its most critical findings are
now discredited.

For purposes of their own, powerful special interest groups desperately
seek to keep substantive discussion of the Holocaust story taboo. One of
the ways they do this is by purposely mischaracterizing revisionist
scholars as "deniers." But the truth can't be suppressed forever: There is
a very real and growing controversy about what actually happened to
Europe's Jews during World War II.

Let this issue be settled as all great historical controversies are
resolved: through free inquiry and open debate in our journals, newspapers
and classrooms.

NOTES

1.  Globe and Mail (Toronto), Jan. 22, 1992.

2.  Trial of the Major War Criminals Before the International Military
Tribunal (IMT "blue series"), Vol. 22, p. 496.

3.  IMT "blue series," Vol. 22, p. 496.

4.  Globe and Mail (Toronto), April 25, 1990; See also: M. Weber, "Jewish
Soap," The Journal of Historical Review, Summer 1991.

5.  Canadian Jewish News (Toronto), Jan. 30, 1992.

6.  See: Barbara Kulaszka, ed., Did Six Million Really Die: Report of the
Evidence in the Canadian "False News" Trial of Ernst Zuendel (Toronto:
Samisdat, 1992), pp. 192, 300, 349.

7.  "The Revised Hilberg," Simon Wiesenthal Annual, Vol. 3, 1986, p. 294.

8.  B. Kulaszka, ed., Did Six Million Really Die (Toronto: 1992), pp. 24-25.

9.  A. Mayer, Why Did the Heavens Not Darken?: The "Final Solution" in
History (Pantheon, 1988), p. 365.

10.  Nuremberg document 008-USSR.; IMT "blue series," Vol. 39, pp. 241, 261.

11.  B. Kulaszka, ed., Did Six Million Really Die (Toronto: 1992), p. 441.

12.  Y. Bauer, "Fighting the Distortions," Jerusalem Post (Israel), Sept.
22, 1989; Auschwitz Deaths Reduced to a Million," Daily Telegraph
(London), July 17, 1990; "Poland Reduces Auschwitz Death Toll Estimate to
1 Million," The Washington Times, July 17, 1990.

13.   J.-C. Pressac, Les Crémetoires d'Auschwitz: La machinerie du meurtre
de masse (Paris: CNRS, 1993). See also: R. Faurisson, "Jean-Claude
Pressac's New Auschwitz Book," The Journal of Historical Review, Jan.-Feb.
1994, p. 24.

14.  IMT "blue series," Vol. 22, p. 485; Nuremberg document 3868-PS
(USA-819), in IMT "blue series," Vol. 33, pp. 275-279.

15.  Rupert Butler, Legions of Death (England: 1983), pp. 235-237; C.
Hitchens, "Whose History is it?," Vanity Fair (New York), Dec. 1993, p.
117.

16.  See: R. Faurisson, "How the British Obtained the Confession of Rudolf
Hoess," The Journal of Historical Review, Winter 1986-87, pp. 389-403.

17.  A deluxe edition of The Leuchter Report is available from the IHR for
$20.00, plus $2.00 shipping.

18.  The complete text of this report was published in English in The
Journal of Historical Review, Summer 1991.

19.  G. Rudolf, Gutachten ueber die Bildung und Nachweisbarkeit von
Cyanidverbindungen in den "Gaskammern" von Auschwitz (London: 1993). See:
The Journal of Historical Review, Nov.-Dec. 1993, pp. 25-26.

20.  "The 'Lueftl Report'," The Journal of Historical Review, Winter 1992-93.

4/94

This article is adapted from an essay originally distributed in 1992 by
The Canadian Free Speech League (P.O. Box 40143, Victoria, B.C. V8W 3N3),
a federally incorporated, not-for-profit association that has helped with
the legal defense of Ernst Zuendel, among others. 

Send $2 for a packet of literature and full listing of books and audio-
and video-tapes. Or, order more copies of this leaflet, postpaid, at the
following prices:

10 copies: $2.00 -- 50 copies: $5.00
100 copies or more 8 cents each

INSTITUTE FOR HISTORICAL REVIEW
Post Office Box 2739
Newport Beach, California 92659

-- 
Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
Or, come visit my home page at http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr
The Institute for Historical Review can be reached at:
P.O. Box 241556, Newport Beach, CA 92659


From dkeren@world.std.com Wed Aug  9 12:35:24 PDT 1995
Article: 30604 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsjunkie.ans.net!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!EU.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!world!dkeren
From: dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
Subject: That Old, Stale Garbage (Re: What is 'Holocaust Denial'?)
Message-ID: 
Organization: The World, Public Access Internet, Brookline, MA
References: 
Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 16:14:00 GMT
Lines: 55

greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) keeps peddling old rubbish;
no matter how many times it is refuted, he keeps posting
the same old nonsense, the very same old articles posted
here by nazi-boy Gannon 3-4 years ago.

# Furthermore, an analysis of samples taken by Leuchter
# from the walls and floors of the alleged gas chambers
# showed either no or minuscule traces of cyanide compound,
# from the active ingredient of Zyklon B, the pesticide
# allegedly used to murder Jews at Auschwitz. (note 17)

As noted here hundreds of times, since 1991, a much smaller
concentration of HCN (the cyanide gas released from
Zyklon-B) is necessary to kill humans than the
concentration used in delousing. Moreover, the
exposure time is far shorter (homicidal gassing takes
10-15 minutes, delousing many hours). Therefore, it's
obvious that the walls of the gas chambers were exposed
to the gas for a far shorter time than the walls of
the delousing chambers. Hence, far less compounds were
formed.

Moreover, the gas chambers of Birkenau were dynamited
and lay in ruins for 40 years before these samples
were taken; exposure to the sun, rain, and acid rain
further decreased the cyanide traces. The delousing
chambers, on the other hand, are intact.

# A confidential forensic examination (and subsequent
# report) commissioned by the Auschwitz State Museum and
# conducted by Institute of Forensic Research in Krakow has
# confirmed Leuchter's finding

And it added that "there is hardly a chance of finding
HCN traces in building material that has been exposed
to the elements for 40 years". But Raven won't tell
you that part...

# Finally, there is the study of Austrian engineer Walter
# Lueftl,

More garbage, Lueftl claims for instance that diesel fumes
>from  a 500 BHP tank engine won't kill people, while
experiments conducted by British scientists in 1957
proved that fumes from a tiny, 6 BHP diesel engine
kill animals in a closed chamber. See "The Toxicity of
Fumes from a Diesel Engine Under Four Different
Running Conditions", by Pattle et al., British Journal
of Industrial Medicine, 1957, Vol 14, p.  47-55.

Enough with this garbage, Raven.


-Danny Keren.



From dkeren@world.std.com Wed Aug  9 12:35:27 PDT 1995
Article: 30605 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsjunkie.ans.net!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!EU.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!world!dkeren
From: dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
Subject: Raven's Admiration for Hitler (Re: What is 'Holocaust Denial'?)
Message-ID: 
Organization: The World, Public Access Internet, Brookline, MA
References: 
Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 16:19:12 GMT
Lines: 23

This is what Greg Raven, senior IHR employee and editor
of their "journal", and leading "revisionist scholar",
wrote on GEnie:




 Category 15,  Topic 4
 Message 33        Fri Mar 13, 1992
 G.RAVEN                      at 03:02 EST

My only concern is in going after the facts. As such, I am not
interested in defending Adolf Hitler to my dying breath. I will say,
however, that he was a great man ... certainly greater than
Churchill and FDR put together, and possibly the greatest leader of
our century, if not longer. This is not to say that he was perfect,
but he about the best thing that could have happened to Germany.




-Danny Keren.



From dkeren@world.std.com Wed Aug  9 12:35:33 PDT 1995
Article: 30608 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsjunkie.ans.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!world!dkeren
From: dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
Subject: Re: The Holocaust: Let's Hear Both Sides
Message-ID: 
Organization: The World, Public Access Internet, Brookline, MA
References: 
Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 16:43:26 GMT
Lines: 86

Yet another repost of old lies...

# At one time it was alleged that the Germans gassed
# Jews at Dachau, Buchenwald and other concentration camps
# in Germany proper. That part of the extermination story
# proved so untenable that it was abandoned more than twenty
# years ago.

A blatant lie, as Jews and others were gassed in camps inside
the "Old Reich" (Germany proper), and no one "abandoned"
this part of the extermination story, as our lying revisionazis
claim. Check out any historical source, such as the "Institute
for Contemporary History" in Munich, or "Nazi Mass Murder"
(Yale Uni. Press, 1993), for a very detailed documentation
of the gassings inside Germany proper, both in the "Euthanasia"
institutions and in some of the concentration camps (Mauthausen,
Ravensbrueck, Neunngamme, and others).

# These people were unfortunate victims, not of an extermination
# program, but of disease and malnutrition brought on by the
# complete collapse of Germany in the final months of the war.

Garbage. There was plenty of food to go around. Near Belsen,
in the Panzer training school, there were 800 tons of food;
this was 2 miles from Belsen, yet the inmates died by the
tens-of-thousands from starvation, thirst, beating and
shooting.

# But not a single German document has ever been found which even
# refers to an extermination program.

This is, of course, the biggest revisionazi lie; numerous
documents about mass executions of Jews exist, as well
as documents dealing with gassing of Jews. They are posted
here routinely. Here's one:

Ereignismeldung UdSSR, No. 101, October 2 1941
['The Good Old Days' - E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The Free Press,
NY, 1988, p. 67]
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Einsatzgruppen C
Standort Kiev

In collaboration with the group staff and two Kommandos of Police
Regiment South, on 29 and 30 September 1941, Sonderkommando 4a
executed 33,771 Jews in Kiev.



# The head of the SS camp administration office sent a directive
# dated Dec. 28, 1942, to every concentration camp, including
# Auschwitz.

But not including, of course, Treblinka, Belzec, Sobibor...
Auschwitz was, indeed, also a labor camp. But the letter
(see below) clearly refers to work force, not to the
"unfit for work" gassed upon arrival.

# It sharply criticized the high death rate of inmates due to
# disease,

80,000 out of 130,000 prisoners died, within six months, in
these "work camps". The SS Economic Division was indeed worried
with this death rate, as they were needed their slaves.

How can one explain such a death rate, so long before the
end of the war, when, as the revisionazis claim, it was
"chaos" and "breakdown of supply lines" that caused the
death of the inmates? There was obviously no such "chaos"
and no "breakdown of supply lines" in 1942, yet the
inmates were dying in an incredible rate - and this, in
the *work camps*!

Moreover - the letter says nothing about Jews, and it clearly
refers to slave labor force, not to the Jews shipped to the
death camps.

# "... The camp doctors are to see to it that the working
# conditions at the various labor places are improved as much
# as possible."

"Labor places". Not death camps.


-Danny Keren.



From dkeren@world.std.com Wed Aug  9 12:35:42 PDT 1995
Article: 30614 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsjunkie.ans.net!swiss.ans.net!europa.chnt.gtegsc.com!news.umbc.edu!hookup!news.moneng.mei.com!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!world!dkeren
From: dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
Subject: Re: The Holocaust: Let's Hear Both Sides
Message-ID: 
Organization: The World, Public Access Internet, Brookline, MA
References: 
Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 16:49:36 GMT
Lines: 88

greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) writes:

Yet another repost of old lies...

# At one time it was alleged that the Germans gassed
# Jews at Dachau, Buchenwald and other concentration camps
# in Germany proper. That part of the extermination story
# proved so untenable that it was abandoned more than twenty
# years ago.

A blatant lie, as Jews and others were gassed in camps inside
the "Old Reich" (Germany proper), and no one "abandoned"
this part of the extermination story, as our lying revisionazis
claim. Check out any historical source, such as the "Institute
for Contemporary History" in Munich, or "Nazi Mass Murder"
(Yale Uni. Press, 1993), for a very detailed documentation
of the gassings inside Germany proper, both in the "Euthanasia"
institutions and in some of the concentration camps (Mauthausen,
Ravensbrueck, Neunngamme, and others).

# These people were unfortunate victims, not of an extermination
# program, but of disease and malnutrition brought on by the
# complete collapse of Germany in the final months of the war.

Garbage. There was plenty of food to go around. Near Belsen,
in the Panzer training school, there were 800 tons of food;
this was 2 miles from Belsen, yet the inmates died by the
tens-of-thousands from starvation, thirst, beating and
shooting.

# But not a single German document has ever been found which even
# refers to an extermination program.

This is, of course, the biggest revisionazi lie; numerous
documents about mass executions of Jews exist, as well
as documents dealing with gassing of Jews. They are posted
here routinely. Here's one:

Ereignismeldung UdSSR, No. 101, October 2 1941
['The Good Old Days' - E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The Free Press,
NY, 1988, p. 67]
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Einsatzgruppen C
Standort Kiev

In collaboration with the group staff and two Kommandos of Police
Regiment South, on 29 and 30 September 1941, Sonderkommando 4a
executed 33,771 Jews in Kiev.



# The head of the SS camp administration office sent a directive
# dated Dec. 28, 1942, to every concentration camp, including
# Auschwitz.

But not including, of course, Treblinka, Belzec, Sobibor...
Auschwitz was, indeed, also a labor camp. But the letter
(see below) clearly refers to work force, not to the
"unfit for work" gassed upon arrival.

# It sharply criticized the high death rate of inmates due to
# disease,

80,000 out of 130,000 prisoners died, within six months, in
these "work camps". The SS Economic Division was indeed worried
with this death rate, as they were needed their slaves.

How can one explain such a death rate, so long before the
end of the war, when, as the revisionazis claim, it was
"chaos" and "breakdown of supply lines" that caused the
death of the inmates? There was obviously no such "chaos"
and no "breakdown of supply lines" in 1942, yet the
inmates were dying in an incredible rate - and this, in
the *work camps*!

Moreover - the letter says nothing about Jews, and it clearly
refers to slave labor force, not to the Jews shipped to the
death camps.

# "... The camp doctors are to see to it that the working
# conditions at the various labor places are improved as much
# as possible."

"Labor places". Not death camps.


-Danny Keren.



From Harry W. Mazal OBE Thu Aug 10 06:16:47 PDT 1995
Article: 30718 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!vanbc.wimsey.com!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.fibr.net!usenet
From: hmazal@txdirect.net, San Antonio, Texas 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What is 'Holocaust Denial'?
Date: 10 Aug 1995 01:55:19 GMT
Organization: Fibrnet Internet Services
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <40bou7$61f@nimitz.fibr.net>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: link053.txdirect.net
X-Newsreader: AIR News 3.X (SPRY, Inc.)

>   greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) writes:
>  What is "Holocaust Denial"?

> (Tedious text deleted) 

>  Let this issue be settled as all great historical controversies are
>  resolved: through free inquiry and open debate in our journals, newspapers
>  and classrooms.

Where, no doubt, Mr. Raven's fine books will serve as textbooks:


>  17.  A deluxe edition of The Leuchter Report is available from the IHR for
>  $20.00, plus $2.00 shipping.

Mr. Raven is now the President of his fine organization. He no longer has the
lovely Carto money behind him so he has to make his own way by continuing to
violate Newsgroup ethics by flogging his goods:   
 
>  
>  Send $2 for a packet of literature and full listing of books and audio-
>  and video-tapes. Or, order more copies of this leaflet, postpaid, at the
>  following prices: (etc.)
>  
>  10 copies: $2.00 -- 50 copies: $5.00
>  100 copies or more 8 cents each

(etc.)

Harry W. Mazal OBE




From Harry W. Mazal OBE Thu Aug 10 06:17:00 PDT 1995
Article: 30725 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!vanbc.wimsey.com!news.mindlink.net!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!news.bc.net!info.ucla.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.fibr.net!usenet
From: hmazal@txdirect.net, San Antonio, Texas 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust: Let's Hear Both Sides
Date: 10 Aug 1995 01:45:58 GMT
Organization: Fibrnet Internet Services
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <40bocm$61f@nimitz.fibr.net>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: link053.txdirect.net
X-Newsreader: AIR News 3.X (SPRY, Inc.)

>   greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) writes:

>  (Tedious and repetitive bladerdash removed)
>  That's not right. Americans have the right to judge this important issue
>  for themselves.

Americans (and nearly everyone else)  have judged this important issue.  Mr.
Raven and his cronies have not fared well in the judgement.

After all:

>  The IHR publishes numerous revisionist books, tapes and other materials,
>  as well as the bimonthly Journal of Historical Review. Send $2 (etc.)

they have a vested interest in promoting their lies. Must be hard to survive without the 
money from Carto.

Harry W. Mazal OBE 






From greg.ihr@kaiwan.com Thu Aug 10 06:18:54 PDT 1995
Article: 30766 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!caen!hookup!gatech!news.uoregon.edu!kaiwan.kaiwan.com!kaiwan077.kaiwan.com!user
From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: The Holocaust: Let's Hear Both Sides
Date: 8 Aug 1995 14:13:40 GMT
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 381
Message-ID: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan077.kaiwan.com

THE HOLOCAUST: Let's Hear Both Sides

By Mark Weber

Just about everyone has heard that the Germans killed some six million
Jews in Europe during the Second World War. American television, motion
pictures, newspapers and magazines hammer away on this theme. In
Washington, DC, an enormous official Holocaust Museum is being built.

Scholars Challenge Holocaust Story

During the past decade, though, more and more "Revisionist" historians,
including respected scholars such as Dr. Arthur Butz of Northwestern
University, Prof. Robert Faurisson of the University of Lyon in France and
best-selling British historian David Irving, have been vigorously
challenging the widely-accepted extermination story.

They do not dispute the fact that large numbers of Jews were deported to
concentration camps and ghettos, or that many Jews died or were killed
during the Second World War. Revisionist scholars have, however, presented
considerable evidence to show that there was no German program to
exterminate Europe's Jews and that the estimate of six million Jewish
wartime dead is an irresponsible exaggeration.

Many Holocaust Claims Abandoned

Revisionists point out that the Holocaust story has changed quite a lot
over the years. Many extermination claims that were once widely accepted
have been quietly dropped in recent years.

At one time it was alleged that the Germans gassed Jews at Dachau,
Buchenwald and other concentration camps in Germany proper. That part of
the extermination story proved so untenable that it was abandoned more
than twenty years ago.

No serious historian now supports the once supposedly proven story of
"extermination camps" in the territory of the old German Reich. Even famed
"Nazi hunter" Simon Wiesenthal acknowledged in 1975 that "there were no
extermination camps on German soil." (note 1)

Prominent Holocaust historians now claim that masses of Jews were gassed
at just six camps in what is now Poland: Auschwitz, Majdanek, Treblinka,
Sobibor, Chelmno and Belzec. However, the "evidence" presented for
"gassings" at these six camps is not qualitatively different than the
"evidence" for alleged "gassings" at the camps in Germany proper.

At the great Nuremberg trial of 1945-1946 and during the decades following
the end of the Second World War, Auschwitz (especially Auschwitz-Birkenau)
and Majdanek (Lublin) were generally regarded as the really important
"death camps." For example, the Allies alleged at Nuremberg that the
Germans killed four million at Auschwitz and another 1.5 million at
Majdanek. Today, no reputable historian accepts these fantastic figures.

In addition, more and more striking evidence has been presented in recent
years which simply cannot be reconciled with the allegations of mass
exterminations at these camps. For example, detailed aerial reconnaissance
photographs taken of Auschwitz-Birkenau on several random days in 1944
(during the height of the alleged extermination period there) were made
public by the CIA in 1979. They show no trace of the piles of corpses,
smoking chimneys and masses of Jews awaiting death, all of which have been
alleged and would have been clearly visible if Auschwitz had indeed been
an extermination center.

We now also know that the postwar "confession" of Auschwitz commandant
Rudolf Hoss, which is a crucial part of the Holocaust extermination story,
was obtained by torture. (note 2)

Other Absurd Holocaust Claims

At one time it was also seriously claimed that the Germans exterminated
Jews with electricity and steam, and that they manufactured soap from
Jewish corpses.

For example, at Nuremberg the United States charged that the Germans
killed Jews at Treblinka, not in gas chambers, as is now claimed, but by
steaming them to death in "steam chambers." (note 3)

These bizarre stories have also been quietly abandoned in recent years.

Disease Claimed Many Inmates

The Holocaust extermination story is superficially plausible. Everyone has
seen the horrific photos of dead and dying inmates taken at Bergen-Belsen,
Nordhausen and other concentration camps when they were liberated by
British and American forces in the final weeks of the war in Europe. These
people were unfortunate victims, not of an extermination program, but of
disease and malnutrition brought on by the complete collapse of Germany in
the final months of the war. Indeed, if there had been an extermination
program, the Jews found by Allied forces at the end of the war would have
long since been killed.

In the face of the advancing Soviet forces, large numbers of Jews were
evacuated during the final months of the war from eastern camps and
ghettos to the remaining camps in western Germany. These camps quickly
became terribly overcrowded, which severely hampered efforts to prevent
the spread of epidemics. Furthermore, the breakdown of the German
transportation system made it impossible to supply adequate food and
medicine to the camps.

Captured German Documents

At the end of the Second World War, the Allies confiscated a tremendous
quantity of German documents dealing with Germany's wartime Jewish policy,
which was sometimes officially referred to as the "final solution." But
not a single German document has ever been found which even refers to an
extermination program. To the contrary, the documents clearly show that
the German "final solution" policy was one of emigration and deportation,
not extermination.

Consider, for example, the confidential German Foreign Office memorandum
of August 21, 1942. (note 4) "The present war gives Germany the
opportunity and also the duty of solving the Jewish problem in Europe,"
the memorandum notes. The policy "to promote the evacuation of the Jews
[from Europe] in closest cooperation with the agencies of the
Reichsfuehrer SS [Himmler] is still in force." The memo noted that "the
number of Jews deported in this way to the East did not suffice to cover
the labor needs."

The document quotes German Foreign Minister von Ribbentrop as saying that
"at the end of this war, all Jews would have to leave Europe. This was an
unalterable decision of the Fuehrer [Hitler] and also the only way to
master this problem, as only a global and comprehensive solution could be
applied and individual measures would not help very much."

The memorandum concludes by stating that the "deportations [of Jews to the
East] are a further step on the way of the total solution... The
deportation to the [Polish] General Government is a temporary measure. The
Jews will be moved on further to the occupied [Soviet] eastern territories
as soon as the technical conditions for it are given."

This unambiguous document, and others like it, are routinely suppressed or
ignored by those who uphold the Holocaust extermination story.

Unreliable Testimony

Holocaust historians rely heavily on so-called "survivor testimony" to
support the extermination story. But such "evidence" is notoriously
unreliable. As one Jewish historian has pointed out, "most of the memoirs
and reports [of "Holocaust survivors"] are full of preposterous verbosity,
graphomanic exaggeration, dramatic effects, overestimated self-inflation,
dilettante philosophizing, would-be lyricism, unchecked rumors, bias,
partisan attacks and apologies." (note 5)

Hitler and the "Final Solution"

There is no documentary evidence that Adolf Hitler ever gave an order to
exterminate the Jews, or that he knew of any extermination program.
Instead, the record shows that the German leader wanted the Jews to leave
Europe, by emigration if possible and by deportation if necessary.

A document found after the war in the files of the Reich Ministry of
Justice records his thinking on the Jews. In the spring of 1942, State
Secretary Franz Schlegelberger noted in a memorandum that Hitler's Chief
of Chancellery, Dr. Hans Lammers, had informed him: "The Fuehrer has
repeatedly declared to him [Lammers] that he wants to see the solution of
the Jewish problem postponed until after the war is over." (note 6)

And on July 24, 1942, Hitler emphasized his determination to remove all
Jews from Europe after the war: "The Jews are interested in Europe for
economic reasons, but Europe must reject them, if only out of
self-interest, because the Jews are racially tougher. After this war is
over, I will rigorously hold to the view... that the Jews will have to
leave and emigrate to Madagascar or some other Jewish national state."
(note 7)

Himmler's SS and the Camps

Jews were an important part of Germany's wartime labor force, and it was
in Germany's interest to keep them alive.

The head of the SS camp administration office sent a directive dated Dec.
28, 1942, to every concentration camp, including Auschwitz. It sharply
criticized the high death rate of inmates due to disease, and ordered that
"camp physicians must use all means at their disposal to significantly
reduce the death rate in the various camps." Furthermore, it ordered: "The
camp doctors must supervise more often than in the past the nutrition of
the prisoners and, in cooperation with the administration, submit
improvement recommendations to the camp commandants ... The camp doctors
are to see to it that the working conditions at the various labor places
are improved as much as possible."

Finally, the directive stressed that "The Reichsfuehrer SS [Heinrich
Himmler] has ordered that the death rate absolutely must be reduced."
(note 8)

The head of the SS department that supervised the concentration camps,
Richard Gluecks, sent a circular letter to each camp commandant dated
January 20, 1943. In it he ordered: "As I have already pointed out, every
means must be used to lower the death rate in the camp." (note 9)

Six Million?

There is no real evidence for the incessantly repeated claim that the
Germans exterminated six million Jews. It is clear, though, that millions
of Jews "survived" German rule during the Second World War, including many
who were interned in Auschwitz and other so-called "extermination camps."
This fact alone should raise serious doubts about the extermination story.

A leading newspaper of neutral Switzerland, the daily Baseler Nachrichten,
carefully estimated in June 1946 that no more than 1.5 million European
Jews could have perished under German rule during the war. (note 10)

One-Sided "Holocaustomania"

Even after more than forty years, the stream of Holocaust films and books
shows no sign of diminishing.

This relentless media campaign, which Jewish historian Alfred Lilienthal
calls "Holocaustomania," portrays the fate of the Jews during the Second
World War as the central event of history. There is no end to the
heavy-handed motion pictures, the simplistic television specials, the
vindictive hunt for "Nazi war criminals," the one-sided "educational
courses," and the self-righteous appearances by politicians and
celebrities at Holocaust "memorial services."

Britain's chief rabbi, Immanuel Jakobovits, has accurately described the
Holocaust campaign as "an entire industry, with handsome profits for
writers, researchers, film-makers, monument builders, museum planners and
even politicians." He added that some rabbis and theologians are "partners
in this big business." (note 11)

Non-Jewish victims just don't merit the same concern. For example, there
are no American memorials, "study centers," or annual observances for
Stalin's victims, who vastly outnumber Hitler's.

Who Benefits?

The perpetual Holocaust media blitz is routinely used to justify enormous
American support for Israel and to excuse otherwise inexcusable Israeli
policies, even when they conflict with American interests.

The sophisticated and well-financed Holocaust media campaign is crucially
important to the interests of Israel, which owes its existence to massive
annual subsidies from American taxpayers.

As Prof. W.D. Rubinstein of Australia has candidly acknowledged: "If the
Holocaust can be shown to be a 'Zionist myth,' the strongest of all
weapons in Israel's propaganda armory collapses." (note 12)

Jewish history teacher Paula Hyman of Columbia University has observed:
"With regard to Israel, the Holocaust may be used to forestall political
criticism and suppress debate; it reinforces the sense of Jews as an
eternally beleaguered people who can rely for their defense only upon
themselves. The invocation of the suffering endured by the Jews under the
Nazis often takes the place of rational argument, and is expected to
convince doubters of the legitimacy of current Israeli government policy."
(note 13)

One major reason that the Holocaust story has proven so durable is that
the governments of the major powers also have a vested interest in
maintaining it. The victorious powers of the Second World War -- the
United States, the Soviet Union and Britain -- have a stake in portraying
the defeated Hitler regime as negatively as possible. The more evil and
satanic the Hitler regime appears, the more noble and justified seems the
Allied cause.

For many Jews, the Holocaust has become both a flourishing business and a
kind of new religion, as noted Jewish author and newspaper publisher
Jacobo Timerman points out in his book, The Longest War. He reports that
many Israelis, using the word Shoah, which is Hebrew for Holocaust, joke
that "There's no business like Shoah business." (note 14)

The Holocaust media campaign portrays Jews as totally innocent victims,
and non-Jews as morally retarded and unreliable beings who can easily turn
into murderous Nazis under the right circumstances. This self-serving but
distorted portrayal greatly strengthens Jewish group solidarity and
self-awareness.

A key lesson of the Holocaust story for Jews is that non-Jews are never
completely trustworthy. If a people as cultured and as educated as the
Germans could turn against the Jews, so the thinking goes, than surely no
non-Jewish nation can ever be completely trusted. The Holocaust message is
thus one of contempt for humanity.

Holocaust Hatemongering

The Holocaust story is sometimes used to promote hatred and hostility,
particularly against the German people as a whole, eastern Europeans and
the leadership of the Roman Catholic church.

The well-known Jewish writer, Elie Wiesel, is a former Auschwitz inmate
who served as chairman of the official U.S. Holocaust Memorial Council. He
received the 1986 Nobel Peace Prize. This dedicated Zionist wrote in his
book, Legends of Our Time: "Every Jew, somewhere in his being, should set
apart a zone of hate -- healthy, virile hate -- for what the German
personifies and for what persists in the German." (note 15)

Let Both Sides Be Heard

For several years now, the Holocaust story has been the subject of
legitimate controversy in Europe. It was debated for several hours on
Swiss television and over French national radio. The respected Italian
historical journal Storia Illustrata has given extensive coverage to both
sides of this issue.

Here in America, though, powerful organizations have so far prevented any
real public exchange of views on this issue. Many thoughtful Americans are
having growing doubts about at least some of the more sensational
Holocaust claims, but all the public ever sees and hears is the orthodox
view of the extermination story.

That's not right. Americans have the right to judge this important issue
for themselves.

The Holocaust extermination story is breaking down as suppressed evidence
becomes better known, and as more people become aware of the facts about
what is certainly the most hyped and politicized chapter of modern
history.

Artificially maintaining the hatreds and passions of the past prevents
genuine reconciliation and lasting peace.

Revisionism promotes historical awareness and international understanding.
That's why the work of the Institute for Historical Review is so important
and deserves your support.


NOTES

1. Books & Bookmen, London, April 1975, p. 5.

2.  Rupert Butler, Legions of Death (England: 1983), pp. 235-237, and R.
Faurisson, Journal of Historical Review, Winter 1986-87, pp. 389-403.

3.  Nuremberg document PS-3311 (USA-293). IMT blue series, Vol. 32, pp.
153-158; IMT, Vol. 3, pp. 566- 568.; NMT green series, Vol. 5, pp. 1133,
1134.

4.  Nuremberg document NG-2586-J. NMT green series, Vol. 13, pp. 243-249.

5.  Samuel Gringauz in Jewish Social Studies (New York), January 1950,
Vol. 12, p. 65.

6.  Nuremberg document PS-4025. D. Irving, Goering: A Biography (New York:
1989), p. 349.

7.  H. Picker, Hitlers Tischgespr_che im Fuehrerhaupt quartier (Stuttgart:
1976), p. 456.

8.  Nuremberg document PS-2171, Annex 2; NC&A red series, Vol. 4, pp. 833-834.

9.  Nuremberg document NO-1523; NMT green series, Vol. 5, pp. 372-373.

10. Baseler Nachrichten, June 13, 1946, p. 2.

11. H. Shapiro, "Jakobovits," Jerusalem Post (Israel), Nov. 26, 1987, p. 1.

12. Quadrant (Australia), Sept. 1979, p. 27.

13. New York Times Magazine, Sept. 14, 1980, p. 79.

14. The Longest War (New York: Vintage, 1982), p. 15.

15. Legends of Our Time (New York: Schocken Books, 1982), chap. 12, p. 142.

Mark Weber is editor of the Journal of Historical Review, published by the
Institute for Historical Review. He studied history at the University of
Illinois (Chicago), the University of Munich, Portland State University ,
and Indiana University (M.A., 1977). For five days in March 1988, he
testified as a recognized expert witness on the "Final Solution" and the
Holocaust issue in a Toronto District Court case. He is the author of many
published articles, reviews and essays on various aspects of modern
European history.

The IHR publishes numerous revisionist books, tapes and other materials,
as well as the bimonthly Journal of Historical Review. Send $2 for a
packet of literature and full listing of books. Or, order more copies of
this leaflet, postpaid, at the following prices:

10 copies: $2.00 -- 50 copies: $5.00
100 copies or more 8 cents each

INSTITUTE FOR HISTORICAL REVIEW
Post Office Box 2739
Newport Beach, California 92659, U.S.A.

-- 
Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
Or, come visit my home page at http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr
The Institute for Historical Review can be reached at:
P.O. Box 241556, Newport Beach, CA 92659


From bkt@indirect.com Fri Aug 11 16:26:49 PDT 1995
Article: 30868 of alt.revisionism
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From: bkt@indirect.com (Brian Thompson)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Auschwitz: Myths and Facts
Date: 11 Aug 1995 05:15:53 GMT
Organization: Internet Direct, Inc.
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References: 
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You claim Anne Frank's father died in Switzerland in 1980.  In fact,
he died only recently (earlier this year) having worked to share his
daughter's story and the horror of the Nazis with the world.  This is
just one of the glaring inaccuracies and gaping holes in your article.

For a first-hand account of the Nazi death camps, try reading Elie 
Weisel's "Night".  According to you, he simply fabricated this account
of Nazi atrocities and human suffering, right?  In fact, you are calling
thousands of individuals liars and conveniently ignoring mountains
of documents and photographs that PROOVE beyond any REASONABLE
doubt that Nazi extermination camps existed.  Why were the Nazis 
rounding up Jews in the first place if  not to exterminate them?  The 
TRUTH is almost too horrible to comprehend (the sentiment that you
are capitalizing on in your post).
 
We come to "lasting peace" by admitting to and avoiding the mistakes
of the past, not by quibbling over statistics and ignoring the bulk of
scientific and historical fact  (too many personal accounts and volumes
of evidence to mention-- try picking up a history book).  Even Germany's
current leaders do not deny the truth concerning Nazi horrors.

"Knowledge is ruin to my young men."
                                               --Adolf Hitler

Your statements would make the Fuehrer proud.

Peace,
Brian Thompson 




From jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 11 16:27:30 PDT 1995
Article: 30900 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!vanbc.wimsey.com!news.mindlink.net!agate!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!usc!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk!jeff
From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: CREMATORIA IS NOW CODEWORD FOR "INCINERATORS"
Date: Fri, 11 Aug 1995 11:26:18 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 96
Message-ID: <479210544wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
References:    <875291222wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk> <881071382wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk> <3vtlg5$kig@rover.ucs.ualberta.ca>
Reply-To: jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk
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X-Broken-Date: Friday, Aug 11, 1995 11.26.18
X-Newsreader: Newswin Alpha 0.7

> >dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) writes:
> >> There's BTW a patent, submitted by the very same Topf firm
> >> in 1951, which gives a cremation time of 30-45 minutes
> >> per corpse. It is not the same type of furnace as the
> >> one used in Birkenau, but this figure obviously means
> >> a lot, assuming the science of cremation has not made
> >> a quantum leap right after the war. Once more, the
> >> revisionazis have failed to do their homework."
> 

Jeff  wrote:
> >So let's use Karen's figures to work out the crematory rates for 
> >Birkenau, after all, he knows better than Ivan Lagace, an "intellectual 
> >zero" who was granted Expert status on Cremation at the Zundel trial, 
> 
> >["Lagace estimated that the 46 retorts at Birkenau could handle about 184 
> >bodies daily, or four apiece." (Holocaust on Trial Page 239)]
> 

In article: <3vtlg5$kig@rover.ucs.ualberta.ca>  jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca 
(John Morris) writes:

> Operators of funerary crematoria are very concerned that the bodies
> are burned thoroughly and that the ashes are not mixed with the ashes
> from other bodies. The four bodies a day figure allows for heating up
> and cooling down of the retorts and for clean up and funeral services.
> None of these considerations concerned the SS who only had it in mind
> to incinerate as many bodies as possible in as short a time as
> possible. Although at Kulmhof, Oberwachtmeister Bruno Israel's
> testimony on burning techniques might be applicable to Auschwitz, too:
> "The bodies burned quickly, and new ones were continually being thrown
> in" (cited in Kogon, et al., _Nazi Mass Murder_, Yale UP, 1993).

> It might help clarify the situation if we called the crematorias
> "incinerators" instead, for that is what they were.
 
The crematorias are now "incinerators". So why didn't the SS build 
incinerators? Perhaps "crematoria is just another "codeword"? Just like "In 
readiness for transport" or "passed through" are "codewords" for gassing, 
etc etc [its a long list.] 

However, these were 1951 figures, for the 1940s, let's make it a hour 
per corpse:-  

46 * 24 = 1104 a day. 

However, let's not be a intellectual zero like Roberts or Baron, and 
complain that even these figures are UNREALISTIC, let's remember that the 
Nazis [or the Jewish Sonderkommando who actually operated the retorts, who 
worked hard and were highly trained, and were next for gassing] stuck 3 
[THREE] corpses in EVERY time, in EVERY retort, NON-STOP right through those 
24 hours, despite the fact the retorts were designed for single corpse 
cremation, and did it flat out with NO problems, NO maintenance, No warming 
up, No cooling down, etc. 

Now let us IGNORE the idea that this might take 3 times as long [this allows 
for kids etc etc] , and say it will take the SAME time as for 1 corpse, as 
EVERYONE knows it will, otherwise we may be classed as intellectual zeros, 
and we wouldn't want that would we.  

1) 1940's rate               46 * 24 * 3 = 3312. [20 minutes per corpse]

It's still a bit short of these estimates :-

The SS letter with its janatorial security classification    4,756 a day. 
But a little short of the Polish Commission's estimate of   12,000 a day. 
Hoess the commandant of Auschwitz, he's wrong again------   16,000 a day. 
Inmate Olga lengel's estimate ---------------------------   17,280 a day.
Dr Nysizli's estimate -----------------------------------   20,000 a day.

[Notice how Hoess is just slightly out on his estimate, and he's the camp 
commandant.]


jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) then writes:

> But, of course, the Kremas did not dispose of that many bodies by 
> themselves. They were eventually abandoned in favour of burning pits.

Burning pits which allied photo-recce planes failed to spot. Just like the 
"death wall", where 20,000 prisoners were shot, making no bullet marks, the 
nazis of course using invisible bullets. 

Still, at least the allies sent over precision bombers to take out the 
railway lines, to Auschwitz, to stop the genocide. 

-- 

Jeff
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca Fri Aug 11 17:30:55 PDT 1995
Article: 30966 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!vanbc.wimsey.com!news.mindlink.net!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!news
From: jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: CREMATORIA IS NOW CODEWORD FOR "INCINERATORS"
Date: Fri, 11 Aug 1995 21:56:00 GMT
Organization: University of Alberta
Lines: 62
Message-ID: <40gj9d$gi6@rover.ucs.ualberta.ca>
References:    <875291222wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk> <881071382wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk> <3vtlg5$kig@rover.ucs.ualberta.ca> <479210544wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
NNTP-Posting-Host: lydgate.remote.ualberta.ca
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Jeff  wrote:

>In article: <3vtlg5$kig@rover.ucs.ualberta.ca>  jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca 
>(John Morris) writes:

>> Operators of funerary crematoria are very concerned that the bodies
>> are burned thoroughly and that the ashes are not mixed with the ashes
>> from other bodies. The four bodies a day figure allows for heating up
>> and cooling down of the retorts and for clean up and funeral services.
>> None of these considerations concerned the SS who only had it in mind
>> to incinerate as many bodies as possible in as short a time as
>> possible. Although at Kulmhof, Oberwachtmeister Bruno Israel's
>> testimony on burning techniques might be applicable to Auschwitz, too:
>> "The bodies burned quickly, and new ones were continually being thrown
>> in" (cited in Kogon, et al., _Nazi Mass Murder_, Yale UP, 1993).

>> It might help clarify the situation if we called the crematorias
>> "incinerators" instead, for that is what they were.
> 
>The crematorias are now "incinerators". So why didn't the SS build 
>incinerators? Perhaps "crematoria is just another "codeword"? Just like "In 
>readiness for transport" or "passed through" are "codewords" for gassing, 
>etc etc [its a long list.] 

Such is your ability to misread that I seriously beginning to wonder
if you are not in fact the same person as Alexander Baron.

I make no claim that "crematorias" [sic] was a code word for
incinerator. But I do claim that that is the function they performed.

[repost of Jeff's clever arithmetic deleted]

I see that you have ignored my clever arithmetic which showed that
your own figures could be used to account for the burning of every
victim during the operating period of the crematoria.

And you also ignore the fact that the crematoria did not operate at
the efficiencies predicted by the SS and by Topf. They did break down
>from  heat stress and burning pits had to be used instead.

>> But, of course, the Kremas did not dispose of that many bodies by 
>> themselves. They were eventually abandoned in favour of burning pits.

>Burning pits which allied photo-recce planes failed to spot. Just like the 
>"death wall", where 20,000 prisoners were shot, making no bullet marks, the 
>nazis of course using invisible bullets. 

The Allied reconnaisance photographs concentrate almost entirely on
the Buna plant. So far as I know, only one photograph of the Birkenau
extermination centre was taken, and even then, by accident. It shows
no more than a fraction of the complex. So I guess you have a pretty
good argument there, Jeff: nonexistent photographs show no evidence of
burning pits.

--
 John Morris                               
 at University of Alberta     
------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
 The Nizkor Project: An Electronic Holocaust Resource
  File archives - ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca
  Web page - http://nizkor.almanac.bc.ca



From dkeren@world.std.com Sun Aug 13 17:41:43 PDT 1995
Article: 31117 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!news.bc.net!news.uoregon.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!hookup!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!news.sprintlink.net!in2.uu.net!world!dkeren
From: dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
Subject: Re: What is 'Holocaust Denial'?
Message-ID: 
Organization: The World, Public Access Internet, Brookline, MA
References:  <40jtl1$e1t@calvino.alaska.net>
Date: Sun, 13 Aug 1995 05:46:37 GMT
Lines: 34

Henry Ayre   wrote:

# Thank you, Mr. Raven, for one of the better-written, 
# more informative, non-profane postings on Internet. 

Yes, we all know Raven's a polite guy, never writes
"f**k", or "shit", or "mother fu**er" (the latter,
BTW, was adopted today by revisionazi Al Baron,
proving that *some* American culture can infiltrate
England after all).

Raven's a cool guy, never uses four letter words,
just writes that Hitler was a "great man", and
"just what Germany needed"; Raven's a cool guy,
never uses profane language, he only spits on the
memory of millions of victims of the Nazis.

So, to get back to the issue, in addition to
praising Raven for not using profanities, can
you, for instance, tell us what was valid
about the article he posted?

I have been reading Raven's articles for a few
years here, and while I haven't detected any
profanities in them, I also never detected anything
truthful, or anything that makes sense, either.

So take a step beyond the revisionazi habit of
associative back-slapping, and tell us: what are the
"strong points" in the article posted by Raven?


-Danny Keren.



From mstein@access1.digex.net Sun Aug 13 17:42:28 PDT 1995
Article: 31151 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news1.digex.net!news3.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What is 'Holocaust Denial'?
Date: 13 Aug 1995 12:20:03 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <40l8nj$i6s@access1.digex.net>
References:  <40jtl1$e1t@calvino.alaska.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

In article <40jtl1$e1t@calvino.alaska.net>,
Henry Ayre   wrote:
>Thank you, Mr. Raven, for one of the better-written, more informative, 
>non-profane postings on Internet. I tend to believe those who can at 
>least be temperate in their discourse.  H. Ayre.

    You must be a great favorite among con men.

    I tend to believe those whose claims stand up to verification, who
quote sources accurately and in context, whose arguments are logically
valid and consistent, and who do not repeat discredited arguments over and
over without addressing the objections which have been raised. 

    Over the past year and a half Greg Raven has amply demonstrated that
he meets none of these criteria.

    Specifics: Raven has grossly distorted the words of Arno Mayer,
Deborah Lipstadt, Christopher Browning, Jean-Claude Pressac, and even
Heinrich Himmler.  If you want full particulars, I can certainly provide 
them.

    Raven has presented the Leuchter Report as evidence, despite the fact
that Leuchter lied about his qualifications.  Brian Harmon pointed out the
scientific problems with Leuchter's reasoning; Raven has never addressed
these.  When it was pointed out that Leuchter (a supposed engineer and
expert) had admitted that one of the chambers at Majdanek would have been
functional as a carbon monoxide execution chamber, he used revisionist
David Cole's examination at Majdanek to discredit Leuchter's findings
there.  Cole went on to dismiss many of Leuchter's errors at Auschwitz as
well.  Yet Raven _still_ presents Leuchter's claims about Auschwitz as
valid.

    Posted/emailed.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From dkeren@world.std.com Sun Aug 13 19:59:19 PDT 1995
Article: 31117 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!news.bc.net!news.uoregon.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!hookup!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!news.sprintlink.net!in2.uu.net!world!dkeren
From: dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
Subject: Re: What is 'Holocaust Denial'?
Message-ID: 
Organization: The World, Public Access Internet, Brookline, MA
References:  <40jtl1$e1t@calvino.alaska.net>
Date: Sun, 13 Aug 1995 05:46:37 GMT
Lines: 34

Henry Ayre   wrote:

# Thank you, Mr. Raven, for one of the better-written, 
# more informative, non-profane postings on Internet. 

Yes, we all know Raven's a polite guy, never writes
"f**k", or "shit", or "mother fu**er" (the latter,
BTW, was adopted today by revisionazi Al Baron,
proving that *some* American culture can infiltrate
England after all).

Raven's a cool guy, never uses four letter words,
just writes that Hitler was a "great man", and
"just what Germany needed"; Raven's a cool guy,
never uses profane language, he only spits on the
memory of millions of victims of the Nazis.

So, to get back to the issue, in addition to
praising Raven for not using profanities, can
you, for instance, tell us what was valid
about the article he posted?

I have been reading Raven's articles for a few
years here, and while I haven't detected any
profanities in them, I also never detected anything
truthful, or anything that makes sense, either.

So take a step beyond the revisionazi habit of
associative back-slapping, and tell us: what are the
"strong points" in the article posted by Raven?


-Danny Keren.



From mstein@access1.digex.net Sun Aug 13 20:00:00 PDT 1995
Article: 31151 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news1.digex.net!news3.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What is 'Holocaust Denial'?
Date: 13 Aug 1995 12:20:03 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <40l8nj$i6s@access1.digex.net>
References:  <40jtl1$e1t@calvino.alaska.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

In article <40jtl1$e1t@calvino.alaska.net>,
Henry Ayre   wrote:
>Thank you, Mr. Raven, for one of the better-written, more informative, 
>non-profane postings on Internet. I tend to believe those who can at 
>least be temperate in their discourse.  H. Ayre.

    You must be a great favorite among con men.

    I tend to believe those whose claims stand up to verification, who
quote sources accurately and in context, whose arguments are logically
valid and consistent, and who do not repeat discredited arguments over and
over without addressing the objections which have been raised. 

    Over the past year and a half Greg Raven has amply demonstrated that
he meets none of these criteria.

    Specifics: Raven has grossly distorted the words of Arno Mayer,
Deborah Lipstadt, Christopher Browning, Jean-Claude Pressac, and even
Heinrich Himmler.  If you want full particulars, I can certainly provide 
them.

    Raven has presented the Leuchter Report as evidence, despite the fact
that Leuchter lied about his qualifications.  Brian Harmon pointed out the
scientific problems with Leuchter's reasoning; Raven has never addressed
these.  When it was pointed out that Leuchter (a supposed engineer and
expert) had admitted that one of the chambers at Majdanek would have been
functional as a carbon monoxide execution chamber, he used revisionist
David Cole's examination at Majdanek to discredit Leuchter's findings
there.  Cole went on to dismiss many of Leuchter's errors at Auschwitz as
well.  Yet Raven _still_ presents Leuchter's claims about Auschwitz as
valid.

    Posted/emailed.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From henri@alaska.net Tue Aug 15 22:34:06 PDT 1995
Article: 31407 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!news.sprintlink.net!in1.uu.net!nwfocus.wa.com!calvino.alaska.net!usenet
From: Henry Ayre 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What is 'Holocaust Denial'?
Date: 16 Aug 1995 00:15:01 GMT
Organization: Internet Alaska, Inc.
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <40rda5$pum@calvino.alaska.net>
References:  <40jtl1$e1t@calvino.alaska.net> <40l8nj$i6s@access1.digex.net>
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X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1N (Windows; I; 16bit)

Other scientists with solid credentials (I find that Leuchter's are quite 
sufficient for the survey he made) have come to the same conclusion: 
there is little or no cyanide traces in the walls of the putative gas 
chambers while there are huge quantities (a ratio of approximately one to 
1000 respectively) in the walls of the delousing chambers. The remark has 
been made that the delousing chambers were used for many hours at a time, 
nearly constantly, so that the cyanide from the Zyklon B would naturally 
be found in greater amounts in the delousing chamber walls. However, 
according to the eyewitnesses as well as the demands of the extermination 
timetable, the scheduling, that is, for the supposed huge number of 
persons gassed, the extermination gas chambers were in constant use as 
well, with dead bodies being removed only to be replaced by live ones in 
an assembly line process... The walls of the gas chambers simply have to 
show concentrations of cyanide close to that found in the known delousing 
chamber walls. Perhaps we have not looked hard enough yet. Perhaps we 
will yet find some chambers with the requisite amount of cyanide fixed in 
the concrete. If we do we will then have to ask outselves why we were not 
able to find them sooner.  Regards. Henry.



From kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca Tue Aug 15 23:09:51 PDT 1995
Article: 31416 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.island.net!nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!not-for-mail
From: kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What is 'Holocaust Denial'?
Date: 15 Aug 1995 23:06:39 -0700
Organization: The Nizkor Project
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <40s1tf$ue@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
References:  <40jtl1$e1t@calvino.alaska.net> <40l8nj$i6s@access1.digex.net> <40rda5$pum@calvino.alaska.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.60.231.126

In article <40rda5$pum@calvino.alaska.net>,
Henry Ayre   wrote:

>Other scientists with solid credentials (I find that Leuchter's are quite 
>sufficient for the survey he made) have come to the same conclusion: 

Leuchter himself admitted he isn't an engineer, and that he has no
qualifications as such. (See Commonwealth of Massachusetts v. Fred
A. Leuchter, Jr, Consent Agreement, and Zundel transcripts.)   

>there is little or no cyanide traces in the walls of the putative gas 
>chambers while there are huge quantities (a ratio of approximately one to 
>1000 respectively) in the walls of the delousing chambers. The remark has 
>been made that the delousing chambers were used for many hours at a time, 
>nearly constantly, so that the cyanide from the Zyklon B would naturally 
>be found in greater amounts in the delousing chamber walls. However, 
>according to the eyewitnesses as well as the demands of the extermination 
>timetable, the scheduling, that is, for the supposed huge number of 
>persons gassed, the extermination gas chambers were in constant use as 
>well, with dead bodies being removed only to be replaced by live ones in 
>an assembly line process... The walls of the gas chambers simply have to 
>show concentrations of cyanide close to that found in the known delousing 
>chamber walls. Perhaps we have not looked hard enough yet. Perhaps we 

No, they do not. You overlook the _massive_ difference in both
concentration _and_ exposure times, as did Leuchter's "report."

This matter has come up here regularly for four years, and been
regularly refuted.

-- 
     The Nizkor Project: An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
                   Anonymous ftp: ftp.almanac.bc.ca
 Nizkor Web: http://www.almanac.bc.ca (Under construction - permanently!)
    Kenneth McVay OBC.  Home Page: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/~kmcvay


From dkeren@world.std.com Wed Aug 16 18:56:26 PDT 1995
Article: 31431 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!news.sprintlink.net!in1.uu.net!world!dkeren
From: dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
Subject: Yet More 'Revisionist Science'? (Re: What is 'Holoc
Message-ID: 
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Henry Ayre  gives us some more
horrendously flawed "revisionist science":

# There is little or no cyanide traces in the walls of the
# putative gas chambers while there are huge quantities
# (a ratio of approximately one to 1000 respectively) in the
# walls of the delousing chambers.

My God, not again.

It has been posted here hundreds of time that:

1) Delousing requires far more time than homicidal
   gassing; therefore the walls of the delousing
   chambers were exposed to the gas for a far longer
   time than the walls of the gas chambers, resulting
   in far more cyanide traces.

2) The gas chambers (except for the one in Auschwitz I,
   which wasn't used often), were dynamited by the
   fleeing SS and left in ruins. For 40 years, their
   walls were exposed to sun, rain, and acid rain,
   all which further reduced the amount of cyanide
   traces. The delousing chambers, on the other hand,
   are intact. BTW, tests made immediately after the
   war showed high concentration of cyanide compounds
   in the ventilation grills of one of the gas chamber,
   I recall that of Krema III; this is reported in
   Pressac's book.

3) An important point - many short exposures (as in
   homicidal gassing) will not result in the same
   amount of compounds as one long exposure of the same
   total duration; this is because the gas needs time
   to interact with the building material. This is
   another reason why less traces were formed in the
   homicidal gas chambers.

# However, according to the eyewitnesses as well as the
# demands of the extermination timetable, the scheduling,
# that is, for the supposed huge number of persons gassed,
# the extermination gas chambers were in constant use as
# well

No, a simple calculation proves that your claim is
absolutely ridiculous.

Take a large gas chamber, like the ones in Krema II and III.
It was 7 X 30 meters. 210 square meters, meaning that it was
certainly possible to gas a 1,000 people a time, especially
considering that there were many children and infants
among them. Assuming, say, 400 gassings, results in a
total exposure time of 400*20 (minutes) = 8,000 minutes
or about 130 hours. Now, a delousing chamber used for,
say, 2 years, may well have been exposed to cyanide gas
for 2*365*10 = 7,300 hours (I've taken what I consider a
reasonable lower bound, 10 hours a day).

So, obviously, the gas chambers were exposed for a far,
far shorter time to the cyanide gas. The major point you
tried to make is totally and completely false.


-Danny Keren.



From bzs@world.std.com Wed Aug 16 18:56:33 PDT 1995
Article: 31435 of alt.revisionism
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: What is 'Holocaust Denial'?
In-Reply-To: Henry Ayre's message of 16 Aug 1995 00:15:01 GMT
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From: Henry Ayre 
>Other scientists with solid credentials (I find that Leuchter's are quite 
>sufficient for the survey he made) have come to the same conclusion: 

Well, that's interesting, since Leuchter has absolutely no credentials
even remotely related to this report he made.

And even the revisionists who paid for it are distancing themselves
>from  that report, the flaws are so embarrassing. Leuchter has a
bachelor's degree in the humanities and that's about it, and has been
in trouble for passing himself off as an engineer without a license.

-- 
        -Barry Shein

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Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


From hkatz@earth.usa.net Wed Aug 16 19:00:01 PDT 1995
Article: 31576 of alt.revisionism
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From: hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What is 'Holocaust Denial'?
Date: 16 Aug 1995 22:45:48 GMT
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In article <40rda5$pum@calvino.alaska.net>,
Henry Ayre (henri@alaska.net) writes:

	Other scientists with solid credentials (I find that Leuchter's
	are quite sufficient for the survey he made)...

And exactly what makes Mr. Ayre qualified to pass judgement
on Leuchter's "credentials?"

--
Harry Katz

Good deeds are better than creeds.
	-- The Wit and Wisdom of the Talmud, Madison C. Peters, ed.


From greg.ihr@kaiwan.com Fri Aug 18 09:47:57 PDT 1995
Article: 31805 of alt.revisionism
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MACVAY & HOESS STATEMENT "edited"  AT NIZOR & drainage cite
Date: 18 Aug 1995 05:00:11 GMT
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
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In article <822286105wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>, jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk wrote:

> 6. The "final solution" of the Jewish question meant the
> complete extermination of all Jews in Europe. I had the order to
> produce extermination facilities in Auschwitz in June 1942. At
> that time three further annihilation camps already existed in
> the general government: Belzec, Treblinka and Wolzek. These camps
> found themselves under the mission command of the security police and the 
> SD.....
>  
> From "Der Kommandant von Auschwitz erzaehlt," in _Das Dritte
> Reich und die Juden_, edited by Leon Poliakov and Josef Wulf.
> Berlin Grunewald, Verlag-GmbH, 1955.
> 
> However, it should read June 1941. 

This is just one more of the many problems with the anti-revisionist
position. If the order was given earlier, then there is no way to explain
why Birkenau was built WITHOUT homicidal gas chambers. If the date is too
late, there is not enough time to build the extermination facilities and
exterminate all the claimed victims.

-- 
Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
Or, come visit my home page at http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr
The Institute for Historical Review can be reached at:
P.O. Box 241556, Newport Beach, CA 92659


From jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca Fri Aug 18 09:48:06 PDT 1995
Article: 31810 of alt.revisionism
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From: jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MACVAY & HOESS STATEMENT "edited"  AT NIZOR & drainage cite
Date: Fri, 18 Aug 1995 05:56:13 GMT
Organization: University of Alberta
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greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) wrote:

>In article <822286105wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>, jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk wrote:

>> 6. The "final solution" of the Jewish question meant the
>> complete extermination of all Jews in Europe. I had the order to
>> produce extermination facilities in Auschwitz in June 1942. At
>> that time three further annihilation camps already existed in
>> the general government: Belzec, Treblinka and Wolzek. These camps
>> found themselves under the mission command of the security police and the 
>> SD.....
>>  
>> From "Der Kommandant von Auschwitz erzaehlt," in _Das Dritte
>> Reich und die Juden_, edited by Leon Poliakov and Josef Wulf.
>> Berlin Grunewald, Verlag-GmbH, 1955.
>> 
>> However, it should read June 1941. 

>This is just one more of the many problems with the anti-revisionist
>position. If the order was given earlier, then there is no way to explain
>why Birkenau was built WITHOUT homicidal gas chambers. If the date is too
>late, there is not enough time to build the extermination facilities and
>exterminate all the claimed victims.

Bare assertion. No evidence. Not even a puerile attempt at arithmetic.

The best estimate of the number so victims who died from all causes at
Auschwitz-Birkenau is 1.1 million. Even if all the victims died
between January 1943 and December 1943 (which they didn't) that is
still something like 1,500 people a day on average from all causes.
That is less than one third of the SS's own estimates for the capacity
of the Krema retorts (memo from Jahrling to Kammler). But of course
the Kremas didn't live up to expectations, and broke down.

If Hoess said he received the order in 1941, he misremembered, since
Topf and Son, and AEG (the electric company), sent letters to Hoess
early in 1943 telling him that the Kremas were ready. Hoess would
therefore have received his orders in 1942. In the words of the AEG
letter sent at the beginning of February 1943, "You can now begin
killing and and burning simultaneously."

So, Greg, if you are just going to pop in here with stuff you just
made up, at least try to a credible job of it.

--
 John Morris                               
 at University of Alberta     
------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
 The Nizkor Project: An Electronic Holocaust Resource
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From dkeren@world.std.com Fri Aug 18 12:04:44 PDT 1995
Article: 31843 of alt.revisionism
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From: dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
Subject: Re: MACVAY & HOESS STATEMENT "edited"  AT NIZOR & drainage cite
Message-ID: 
Organization: The World, Public Access Internet, Brookline, MA
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Greg "Hitler was a great man" Raven,  wrote:

# If the date is too late, there is not enough time to build the 
# extermination facilities and exterminate all the claimed victims.

Huh?

The crematoriums *were* built. Even the Holocaust-deniers
don't deny this. So what is Raven talking about?

Why wouldn't there be enough time to kill all the victims?
Homicidal gassing with cyanide gas is pretty fast. With 4
large gas chambers and so much cremation power, it was
certainly possible, and it was done.


-Danny Keren.



From kfilan@netcom.com Fri Aug 18 18:12:13 PDT 1995
Article: 31857 of alt.revisionism
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From: kfilan@netcom.com (kevin filan)
Subject: Re: MACVAY & HOESS STATEMENT "edited"  AT NIZOR & drainage cite
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Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com) wrote:

: This is just one more of the many problems with the anti-revisionist
: position. If the order was given earlier, then there is no way to explain
: why Birkenau was built WITHOUT homicidal gas chambers. If the date is too
: late, there is not enough time to build the extermination facilities and
: exterminate all the claimed victims.


	This is an interesting point, Mr. Raven.  It reminds me of 
another question which was raised by some of your earlier posts:

	You've claimed (following Butz's lead, I believe) that the 
Zyklon-B which was shipped to Auschwitz _sans_ aromatic was a 
"cost-cutting" measure.  You've stated that Nazi Germany had some serious 
economic problems and needed to economize wherever possible... including 
the removal of the "irritant aromatic."

	You've also claimed that the crematoria were not used at anything 
approaching their maximum rate.  Could you speculate as to why there were 
52 ovens at Auschwitz/Birkenau... if we have a total death rate of around 
75,000 or so over the course of several years (the total which I believe 
David Irving and others have given), then isn't 52 crematoria _gross_ 
overkill (and EXPENSIVE gross overkill).  

	We also have testimony that these ovens broke down frequently due 
to the strain on them.  (Dr. Keren has posted a sample of this numerous 
times, typically under the heading "THE STRAIN ON THE FURNACES WAS 
COLOSSAL").  How do you reconcile this with your claim that they were 
_not_ used at full capacity?  

	As always, I look forward to your replies.

Peace
Kevin Filan

: -- 
: Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
: Or, come visit my home page at http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr
: The Institute for Historical Review can be reached at:
: P.O. Box 241556, Newport Beach, CA 92659
-- 
________________________________________________________________
Kevin Filan			*	P.O. Box 231582
kfilan@netcom.com		*	Old Statehouse Station
Rakshasa PODSnet, FidoNet, IRC	*	Hartford, CT 06123
________________________________________________________________   
"Toto... I don't think we're in Kansas anymore..."


From henri@alaska.net Sun Aug 20 03:59:44 PDT 1995
Article: 32000 of alt.revisionism
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From: Henry Ayre 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What is 'Holocaust Denial'?
Date: 19 Aug 1995 19:18:01 GMT
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>
>>there is little or no cyanide traces in the walls of the putative gas 
>>chambers while there are huge quantities (a ratio of approximately one to 
>>1000 respectively) in the walls of the delousing chambers. The remark has 
>>been made that the delousing chambers were used for many hours at a time, 
>>nearly constantly, so that the cyanide from the Zyklon B would naturally 
>>be found in greater amounts in the delousing chamber walls. However, 
>>according to the eyewitnesses as well as the demands of the extermination 
>>timetable, the scheduling, that is, for the supposed huge number of 
>>persons gassed, the extermination gas chambers were in constant use as 
>>well, with dead bodies being removed only to be replaced by live ones in 
>>an assembly line process... The walls of the gas chambers simply have to 
>>show concentrations of cyanide close to that found in the known delousing 
>>chamber walls. Perhaps we have not looked hard enough yet. Perhaps we 
>
>No, they do not. You overlook the _massive_ difference in both
>concentration _and_ exposure times, as did Leuchter's "report."
>
>This matter has come up here regularly for four years, and been
>regularly refuted.
>

Readers of this post must realize that the words "regularly refuted" are 
relative and not absolute. The refutation exists only in the minds of 
those who are less than careful in their thinking, and in the 
adrenalin of those who are more emotional than they should be about the 
entire subject. It stands as of now that several very competent and 
educated engineers have made physical and chemical analyses of the 
putative gas chambers, and these experts have found, each according to 
his own entirely separate study, that the supposed homicidal gas chambers 
could never have been used as such. H. Ayre.



From jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca Sun Aug 20 03:59:50 PDT 1995
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From: jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What is 'Holocaust Denial'?
Date: Sat, 19 Aug 1995 20:09:58 GMT
Organization: University of Alberta
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Henry Ayre  wrote:

>>
>>This matter has come up here regularly for four years, and been
>>regularly refuted.
>>

>Readers of this post must realize that the words "regularly refuted" are 
>relative and not absolute. The refutation exists only in the minds of 
>those who are less than careful in their thinking, and in the 
>adrenalin of those who are more emotional than they should be about the 
>entire subject. It stands as of now that several very competent and 
>educated engineers have made physical and chemical analyses of the 
>putative gas chambers, and these experts have found, each according to 
>his own entirely separate study, that the supposed homicidal gas chambers 
>could never have been used as such. H. Ayre.

Name them.
--
 John Morris                               
 at University of Alberta     
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From henri@alaska.net Sun Aug 20 03:59:53 PDT 1995
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From: Henry Ayre 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Yet More 'Revisionist Science'? (Re: What is 'Holoc
Date: 19 Aug 1995 19:33:07 GMT
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Mr. Keren's figures about the amount of use of the (known) prison camp 
delousing chambers versus the (putative) use of homicidal gas chambers is 
certainly an exercise of gross speculation. He would have the delousing 
chambers used (gasified with cyanide) 10 hours a day EVERY DAY for two 
years. This seems a bit much to me. Then he makes the (putative) 
executions by gas a veritable model of efficiency. Again this seems a bit 
too much. And, of course, the compound created in the concrete walls of 
the chambers by the chemical action of cyanide gas is quite insoluble... 
and is IN the concrete as well. The analyses done by several independent 
experts do have a probative value in my estimation. H. Ayre.



From jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca Sun Aug 20 04:00:14 PDT 1995
Article: 32017 of alt.revisionism
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From: jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Yet More 'Revisionist Science'? (Re: What is 'Holoc
Date: Sat, 19 Aug 1995 21:29:40 GMT
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Henry Ayre  wrote:

>Mr. Keren's figures about the amount of use of the (known) prison camp 
>delousing chambers versus the (putative) use of homicidal gas chambers is 
>certainly an exercise of gross speculation. He would have the delousing 
>chambers used (gasified with cyanide) 10 hours a day EVERY DAY for two 
>years. This seems a bit much to me. Then he makes the (putative) 
>executions by gas a veritable model of efficiency. Again this seems a bit 
>too much. And, of course, the compound created in the concrete walls of 
>the chambers by the chemical action of cyanide gas is quite insoluble... 
>and is IN the concrete as well. The analyses done by several independent 
>experts do have a probative value in my estimation. H. Ayre.

Name these experts.

--
 John Morris                               
 at University of Alberta     
------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
 The Nizkor Project: An Electronic Holocaust Resource
  File archives - ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca
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From dkeren@world.std.com Sun Aug 20 04:00:23 PDT 1995
Article: 32018 of alt.revisionism
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From: dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
Subject: Re: What is 'Holocaust Denial'?
Message-ID: 
Organization: The World, Public Access Internet, Brookline, MA
References:  <40rda5$pum@calvino.alaska.net> <40s1tf$ue@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <415dd9$hvu@calvino.alaska.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Aug 1995 21:34:00 GMT
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And people attack me for having called Holocaust-deniers
"intellectual zeroes"... just look at the following,
and decide who is the one who refuses to debate and
who refuses to change his mind even though he's
clearly wrong:

Henry Ayre  writes:

# The refutation exists only in the minds of those who
# are less than careful in their thinking, and in the
# adrenalin of those who are more emotional than they
# should be about the entire subject.

I gave a rather detailed refutation of the "cyanide traces"
nonsense. I proved to Ayre that the walls of the gas
chambers were exposed to the HCN for a far shorter time
than the delousing chambers; I noted that short exposures
(as in homicidal gassing) result in a smaller amount of
traces than a long exposure of the same total duration
(as in delousing); I noted that the gas chambers were
destroyed and stood in ruins for 40 years, thus the
walls were exposed to rain, sun, and acid rain, which
decrease the amount of the traces; and I noted that tests
made immediately after the war found high concentrations
of cyanide compounds in the ventilation grills of the
gas chambers. All this is well-known.

Ayre apparently has nothing to say, nothing with which
to contradict what I've written, so he retreats into
his standard "there's no need for debate, as this-and-that
already proved it":

# It stands as of now that several very competent and
# educated engineers have made physical and chemical analyses

I guess Ayre's talking about Leuchter, who is not an engineer,
who lied in court, who was torn apart in his cross-examination,
and who wrote such a ridiculous "report" about the gas
chamber that even "leading revisionists" admit it's useless.

Does Ayre have anything to say, or can he only quote
Leuchter? Leuchter, at least, tried to prove his position.
He failed miserably, but he tried. Ayre doesn't even try.


-Danny Keren.



From dkeren@world.std.com Sun Aug 20 04:00:47 PDT 1995
Article: 32027 of alt.revisionism
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From: dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
Subject: Re: Yet More 'Revisionist Science'? (Re: What is 'Holoc
Message-ID: 
Organization: The World, Public Access Internet, Brookline, MA
References:  <40rda5$pum@calvino.alaska.net>  <415e9j$hvu@calvino.alaska.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Aug 1995 21:46:24 GMT
Lines: 46

Henry Ayre   writes:

# Mr. Keren's figures about the amount of use of the (known)
# prison camp  delousing chambers versus the (putative) use of
# homicidal gas chambers is certainly an exercise of gross
# speculation.

No, I rely on testimonies and chemical facts. Ayre has to
face reality. He cannot deny chemical and biological facts.
The duration of time for delousing is a *scientific fact*;
the period of time it takes to kill people with a given
concentration of HCN is a *scientific fact*. He cannot
deny these facts. Period.

# He would have the delousing chambers used (gasified with
# cyanide) 10 hours a day EVERY DAY for two years. This
# seems a bit much to me.

That's it, then?

"This seems a bit much to me"?

This is what you can come up with?

Tell me - is this a joke?

# Then he makes the (putative) executions by gas a veritable
# model of efficiency. Again this seems a bit too much.

Why? I mean, we're supposed to accept the word of the
prophet Ayre without any explanation, are we?

"This seems a bit too much" - and that's it?

This guy's unreal.

# of course, the compound created in the concrete walls of
# the chambers by the chemical action of cyanide gas is
# quite insoluble...

Yes it is, and, of course, there was a far greater amount
of compounds in the delousing chambers to start with.


-Danny Keren.



From joelr@winternet.com Sun Aug 20 04:01:35 PDT 1995
Article: 32044 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!netnet2.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!in1.uu.net!winternet.com!news
From: joelr@winternet.com   (Joel Rosenberg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What is 'Holocaust Denial'
Date: 20 Aug 1995 00:14:56 GMT
Organization: StarNet Communications, Inc
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <415uq0$dao@blackice.winternet.com>
References:  <40jtl1$e1t@calvino.alaska.net> <40l8nj$i6s@access1.digex.net> <40rda5$pum@calvino.alaska.net> <40s1tf$ue@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <415dd9$hvu@calvino.alaska.net>
Reply-To: joelr@winternet.com  (Joel Rosenberg)
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X-Newsreader: IBM NewsReader/2 v1.09

In <415dd9$hvu@calvino.alaska.net>, Henry Ayre  writes:
> 
>>
>>>there is little or no cyanide traces in the walls of the putative gas 
>>>chambers while there are huge quantities (a ratio of approximately one to 
>>>1000 respectively) in the walls of the delousing chambers. The remark has 
>>>been made that the delousing chambers were used for many hours at a time, 
>>>nearly constantly, so that the cyanide from the Zyklon B would naturally 
>>>be found in greater amounts in the delousing chamber walls. However, 
>>>according to the eyewitnesses as well as the demands of the extermination 
>>>timetable, the scheduling, that is, for the supposed huge number of 
>>>persons gassed, the extermination gas chambers were in constant use as 
>>>well, with dead bodies being removed only to be replaced by live ones in 
>>>an assembly line process... The walls of the gas chambers simply have to 
>>>show concentrations of cyanide close to that found in the known delousing 
>>>chamber walls. Perhaps we have not looked hard enough yet. Perhaps we 
>>
>>No, they do not. You overlook the _massive_ difference in both
>>concentration _and_ exposure times, as did Leuchter's "report."
>>
>>This matter has come up here regularly for four years, and been
>>regularly refuted.
>>
>
>Readers of this post must realize that the words "regularly refuted" are 
>relative and not absolute.

Sure.  The matter is no more refuted than the idea that the moon is made of
cheese.  One can play epistemological games and say that perhaps the moon 
really is made of cheese, and all the astronauts are liars, or perhaps it 
has turned into cheese since the last Apollo shot . . .

 . . but it's just as much bullshit.  To Ayre is, alas, all too common.



From greg.ihr@kaiwan.com Sun Aug 20 04:03:28 PDT 1995
Article: 32099 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!netnet2.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.clark.net!rahul.net!a2i!bug.rahul.net!a2i!kaiwan.kaiwan.com!kaiwan087.kaiwan.com!user
From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: [LONG!] The Lachout Document: Anatomy of a Forgery
Date: 20 Aug 1995 07:35:03 GMT
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 17
Message-ID: 
References: <412i9r$e91@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <808787363snz@abaron.demon.co.uk>
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In article <808787363snz@abaron.demon.co.uk>, A_Baron@abaron.demon.co.uk wrote:

> Excellent article. Is this available in hard copy? I congratulate you on
> an impressive contribution to Historical Revisionism.
> 
> As this guy Lachout appears to have been at it for some time can we assume
> that he duped Faurisson and company or should we be less charitable?

For what it's worth, I had a conversation with Robert Faurisson about the
Mueller document a little over a year ago, and as of that time he agreed
that it was unreliable.

-- 
Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
Or, come visit my home page at http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr
The Institute for Historical Review can be reached at:
P.O. Box 241556, Newport Beach, CA 92659


From jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca Sun Aug 20 04:03:31 PDT 1995
Article: 32100 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsjunkie.ans.net!gatech!news.uoregon.edu!news.bc.net!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!news
From: jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: [LONG!] The Lachout Document: Anatomy of a Forgery
Date: Sun, 20 Aug 1995 07:47:45 GMT
Organization: University of Alberta
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <416pdk$1otq@rover.ucs.ualberta.ca>
References: <412i9r$e91@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <808787363snz@abaron.demon.co.uk> 
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greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) wrote:

>In article <808787363snz@abaron.demon.co.uk>, A_Baron@abaron.demon.co.uk wrote:

>> Excellent article. Is this available in hard copy? I congratulate you on
>> an impressive contribution to Historical Revisionism.
>> 
>> As this guy Lachout appears to have been at it for some time can we assume
>> that he duped Faurisson and company or should we be less charitable?

>For what it's worth, I had a conversation with Robert Faurisson about the
>Mueller document a little over a year ago, and as of that time he agreed
>that it was unreliable.

"Unreliable" is it? Hee, hee. Glad to see you have a sense of humor
about these things.

--
 John Morris                               
 at University of Alberta     
------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
 The Nizkor Project: An Electronic Holocaust Resource
  File archives - ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca
  Web page - http://nizkor.almanac.bc.ca



From mstein@access2.digex.net Sun Aug 20 15:09:10 PDT 1995
Article: 32158 of alt.revisionism
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From: mstein@access2.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: [LONG!] The Lachout Document: Anatomy of a Forgery
Date: 20 Aug 1995 09:07:28 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 15
Message-ID: <417c2g$45g@access2.digex.net>
References: <412i9r$e91@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <808787363snz@abaron.demon.co.uk> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access2.digex.net

In article ,
Greg Raven  wrote:
>For what it's worth, I had a conversation with Robert Faurisson about the
>Mueller document a little over a year ago, and as of that time he agreed
>that it was unreliable.

    It's worth nothing, as this is merely Mr. Raven's eyewitness testimony
as to what Faurisson thinks.  Remember, according to Mr. Raven, testimony
is not evidence.  Therefore by Raven's own admission we still have no
evidence as to what Faurission actually believes about this document. 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From joelr@winternet.com Mon Aug 21 00:12:19 PDT 1995
Article: 32244 of alt.revisionism
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From: joelr@winternet.com   (Joel Rosenberg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: [LONG!] The Lachout Document: Anatomy of a Forgery
Date: 21 Aug 1995 00:56:37 GMT
Organization: StarNet Communications, Inc
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <418lk5$7q4@blackice.winternet.com>
References: <412i9r$e91@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <808787363snz@abaron.demon.co.uk> 
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In , greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) writes:
>In article <808787363snz@abaron.demon.co.uk>, A_Baron@abaron.demon.co.uk wrote:
>
>> Excellent article. Is this available in hard copy? I congratulate you on
>> an impressive contribution to Historical Revisionism.
>> 
>> As this guy Lachout appears to have been at it for some time can we assume
>> that he duped Faurisson and company or should we be less charitable?
>
>For what it's worth, I had a conversation with Robert Faurisson about the
>Mueller document a little over a year ago, and as of that time he agreed
>that it was unreliable.
>

Yes, and viewed from some close-up angles, the Grand Canyon can appear 
unsmall.



From staff@rabbit.augs.se Mon Aug 21 00:12:35 PDT 1995
Article: 32253 of alt.revisionism
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Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
From: staff@rabbit.augs.se (Staffan Friberg)
Subject: Re: What is 'Holocaust Denial'?
References:  <40rda5$pum@calvino.alaska.net> <40s1tf$ue@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <415dd9$hvu@calvino.alaska.net> 
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In article 
dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) writes:

> I guess Ayre's talking about Leuchter, who is not an engineer,
> who lied in court, who was torn apart in his cross-examination,
> and who wrote such a ridiculous "report" about the gas
> chamber that even "leading revisionists" admit it's useless.

While on the subject...

A while ago someone mentioned something called "the Luftl report", which
should be something similar to the Leuchter report.

I haven't been able to locate the document or anything that tells anything
about it. Do you, or anyone else, know anything about this?

Thanks!

-- 

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+ Staffan Friberg +                  +  EMail: staff@rabbit.augs.se    +
+                 +                  +  FidoNet 2:204/204.2 or         +
+ Sweden          +                  +          2:204/418.9            +
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"Den som kan vara glad i dagens läge är en fiende till allt vad
intelligens heter."  (Arne Anka)


From jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca Mon Aug 21 00:13:31 PDT 1995
Article: 32261 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsjunkie.ans.net!swiss.ans.net!europa.chnt.gtegsc.com!gatech!news.uoregon.edu!news.bc.net!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!news
From: jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What is 'Holocaust Denial'?
Date: Mon, 21 Aug 1995 05:29:25 GMT
Organization: University of Alberta
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <4195mb$tes@rover.ucs.ualberta.ca>
References:  <40rda5$pum@calvino.alaska.net> <40s1tf$ue@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <415dd9$hvu@calvino.alaska.net>  
NNTP-Posting-Host: lydgate.remote.ualberta.ca
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

staff@rabbit.augs.se (Staffan Friberg) wrote:

>While on the subject...

>A while ago someone mentioned something called "the Luftl report", which
>should be something similar to the Leuchter report.

>I haven't been able to locate the document or anything that tells anything
>about it. Do you, or anyone else, know anything about this?

I can't for the life of me figure out why the deniers don't try to get
more mileage out of the Luftl report: it does have the right patina of
pseudo-scientific mumbo-jumbo to make it look half credible.

Anyway a copy may be obtained from:

   ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca/pub/people/l/luftl.walter

Refutations of some of the "scientific" elements of his report,
especially pertaining to HCN and diesel gassing can be found in:

   ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca/pub/people/l/leuchter.fred

And be sure not to miss the articles by chemist Brian Harmon in:

   ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca/pub/camps/auschwitz/cyanide.001
   ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca/pub/camps/auschwitz/cyanide.002

the file cyanide.002 was written by Harmon with Michael Stein.

--
 John Morris                               
 at University of Alberta     
------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
 The Nizkor Project: An Electronic Holocaust Resource
  File archives - ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca
  Web page - http://nizkor.almanac.bc.ca



From dkeren@world.std.com Mon Aug 21 00:13:34 PDT 1995
Article: 32262 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsjunkie.ans.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!in2.uu.net!world!dkeren
From: dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
Subject: Re: What is 'Holocaust Denial'?
Message-ID: 
Organization: The World, Public Access Internet, Brookline, MA
References:    <4195mb$tes@rover.ucs.ualberta.ca>
Date: Mon, 21 Aug 1995 05:46:31 GMT
Lines: 26

John Morris  wrote:

# I can't for the life of me figure out why the deniers
# don't try to get more mileage out of the Luftl report: it
# does have the right patina of pseudo-scientific mumbo-jumbo
# to make it look half credible.

Hmm, I disagree. Luftl's problem was that he didn't do his
homework. There he goes, talking at length about how diesel
fumes from a 500 BHP engine can't kill anyone, and he has
all kinds of arguments and tables, bla-bla.

And then there's this series of experiments by the British
researches in 1957, who were studying the toxicity of diesel
fumes, and you see that animals in a closed chamber die
when they are exposed to the exhaust of a 6 BHP diesel engine.

It makes the whole thing look so stupid... that's one reason
they may have stopped to mention it. It's so stupid, and so
easy to refute and ridicule. In a sense, it's worse than
the "Leuchter report"; Luftl should have been more careful,
after seeing what a sad joke the "Leuchter report" had become.


-Danny Keren.



From jamie@voyager.net Wed Aug 23 08:15:12 PDT 1995
Article: 4352 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news.gmi.edu!isclient.merit.edu!voyager.net!NewsWatcher!user
From: jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Let's hear both sides of the Holocaust story
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 1995 21:59:01 -0500
Organization: Absence Software
Lines: 22
Message-ID: 
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.109.137.21

greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) wrote:

> THE HOLOCAUST: Let's Hear Both Sides

Granting for a moment your claim that deniers' ridiculous and untenable
claptrap is a "side," Mr. Raven, I totally agree.  There's no reason why
people should be prevented from hearing all viewpoints, even crazy ones
like Holocaust-denial.

To that end, we have put numerous links from our Nizkor web site
(http://www.almanac.bc.ca/) to yours (http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr/).

The question, Mr. Raven, is:  why have you consistently ignored all
requests to return the favor?

Are you afraid browsers of your web site might learn the truth?

Posted and emailed to Mr. Raven.
-- 
 Jamie McCarthy  jamie@voyager.net jrm0@aol.com  http://www.kzoo.edu/~k044477/
 I speak only for myself.            Co-Webmaster of http://www.almanac.bc.ca/
 Unless otherwise specified, I consider pro-"revisionism" email public domain.


From kfilan@netcom.com Wed Aug 23 11:45:06 PDT 1995
Article: 4369 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: kfilan@netcom.com (kevin filan)
Subject: Re: What is 'Holocaust Denial'?
Message-ID: 
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Date: Tue, 22 Aug 1995 17:22:21 GMT
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Sender: kfilan@netcom23.netcom.com

Henry Ayre (henri@alaska.net) wrote:
: Readers of this post must realize that the words "regularly refuted" are 
: relative and not absolute. The refutation exists only in the minds of 
: those who are less than careful in their thinking, and in the 
: adrenalin of those who are more emotional than they should be about the 
: entire subject. It stands as of now that several very competent and 
: educated engineers have made physical and chemical analyses of the 
: putative gas chambers, and these experts have found, each according to 
: his own entirely separate study, that the supposed homicidal gas chambers 
: could never have been used as such. H. Ayre.

We've not yet been introduced, Mr. Ayre, but I see a few problems in your 
analysis which I feel obligated to point out:

1)  The only two analyses of which I am aware re. the Auschwitz gas 
chambers are the "Leuchter Report" and a report done by a team of 
scientists in Krakow, Poland.  I read an IHR piece on the Krakow report; 
the Krakow scientists did indeed find only trace amounts of cyanide on 
the walls, as did Leuchter.  However, as has been pointed out repeatedly...

	a) the walls were exposed to the elements, resulting in some 
erosion of the cyanide compounds;

	b) the exposure time required to kill a human being, and the 
concentration of HCN, is far less than that required to kill a 
cold-blooded creature (i.e. for delousing).  Thus the delousing chambers, 
not surprisingly, have a far higher concentration of HCN compounds on 
their walls than do the "gas chambers."  

	This has been repeated and repeated and repeated... this is what 
we mean by "refuted."

	Could you give us some reasons why you seem to feel (as you have 
stated several times) that these rooms "could not" have been used as gas 
chambers? If you have the names of other scientific teams (other than 
Leuchter or the Krakow team) which did work in this area, I'd greatly 
appreciate hearing about it.

Peace
Kevin Filan
-- 
________________________________________________________________
Kevin Filan			*	P.O. Box 231582
kfilan@netcom.com		*	Old Statehouse Station
Rakshasa PODSnet, FidoNet, IRC	*	Hartford, CT 06123
________________________________________________________________   
"Toto... I don't think we're in Kansas anymore..."


From henri@alaska.net Sat Aug 26 12:53:21 PDT 1995
Article: 4777 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!news.sprintlink.net!nwfocus1.wa.com!nwfocus.wa.com!calvino.alaska.net!usenet
From: Henry Ayre 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Let's hear both sides of the Holocaust story
Date: 26 Aug 1995 18:17:45 GMT
Organization: Internet Alaska, Inc.
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jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:
>greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) wrote:
>
>> THE HOLOCAUST: Let's Hear Both Sides
>
>Granting for a moment your claim that deniers' ridiculous and untenable
>claptrap is a "side," Mr. Raven, I totally agree.  There's no reason why
>people should be prevented from hearing all viewpoints, even crazy ones
>like Holocaust-denial.
>

Unfortunately, Jamie, a fast-growing number of people DO believe there 
are two sides to the artificially-prolonged atrocity stories of World War 
Two. If the "exterminationists" publicly claim they want the "deniers" to 
be able to present the revisionist point of view, why is it that the 
exterminationists are so occupied with arson, mayhem, influence and 
intrigue,lawsuits without merit, etcetera in an effort to PREVENT 
precisely that, a fair debate?  H. Ayre.



From henri@alaska.net Sat Aug 26 12:53:23 PDT 1995
Article: 4789 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!in2.uu.net!nwfocus.wa.com!calvino.alaska.net!usenet
From: Henry Ayre 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What is 'Holocaust Denial'?
Date: 26 Aug 1995 18:44:56 GMT
Organization: Internet Alaska, Inc.
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References:  <40jtl1$e1t@calvino.alaska.net> <40l8nj$i6s@access1.digex.net> <40rda5$pum@calvino.alaska.net> <40s1tf$ue@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <415dd9$hvu@calvino.alaska.net> 
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kfilan@netcom.com (kevin filan) wrote:
>Henry Ayre (henri@alaska.net) wrote:
>: Readers of this post must realize that the words "regularly refuted" are 
>: relative and not absolute. The refutation exists only in the minds of 
>: those who are less than careful in their thinking, and in the 
>: adrenalin of those who are more emotional than they should be about the 
>: entire subject. It stands as of now that several very competent and 
>: educated engineers have made physical and chemical analyses of the 
>: putative gas chambers, and these experts have found, each according to 
>: his own entirely separate study, that the supposed homicidal gas chambers 
>: could never have been used as such. H. Ayre.
>
>We've not yet been introduced, Mr. Ayre, but I see a few problems in your 
>analysis which I feel obligated to point out:
>
>1)  The only two analyses of which I am aware re. the Auschwitz gas 
>chambers are the "Leuchter Report" and a report done by a team of 
>scientists in Krakow, Poland.  I read an IHR piece on the Krakow report; 
>the Krakow scientists did indeed find only trace amounts of cyanide on 
>the walls, as did Leuchter.  However, as has been pointed out repeatedly...
>
>	a) the walls were exposed to the elements, resulting in some 
>erosion of the cyanide compounds;
>
>	b) the exposure time required to kill a human being, and the 
>concentration of HCN, is far less than that required to kill a 
>cold-blooded creature (i.e. for delousing).  Thus the delousing chambers, 
>not surprisingly, have a far higher concentration of HCN compounds on 
>their walls than do the "gas chambers."  
>
>	This has been repeated and repeated and repeated... this is what 
>we mean by "refuted."
>
>	Could you give us some reasons why you seem to feel (as you have 
>stated several times) that these rooms "could not" have been used as gas 
>chambers? If you have the names of other scientific teams (other than 
>Leuchter or the Krakow team) which did work in this area, I'd greatly 
>appreciate hearing about it.
>
>Peace
>Kevin Filan
>-- 

Your logic is a bit difficult to follow. First you are satisfied that the 
discrepancy of 1000 to one in the concentration of cyanide compound in 
the walls of delousing chambers and putative homicidal gas chambers can 
be adequately explained by (1) the delousing chambers having gas in 
contact with their walls for a far longer time than the latter, the 
supposed homicidal gas chambers, and (2) that the latter were exposed to 
the elements for decades, thus losing some of the cyanide through 
weathering. 

Second, you ask if there have been other chemical analyses made than the 
ones you mentioned. (There have been, all with the same result.) But 
these analyses, the ones you are acquainted with and the ones you are 
not, have nothing to do with your explanation which is already complete 
(see paragraph above). Now, since it has been established that the 1000 
to one ratio DOES exist, and since you are not disputing that the 
sampling and chemical analysis has been done correctly, then you are now 
relying on your explanation and that alone to explain this anomaly.

IF millions of people has been gassed to death in these supposed 
homicidal gas chambers (which were not gas-tight) as has been claimed, 
then the use of these chambers would have been virtually continuous. 
Moreover, the instructions for the use of Zyklon-B call for a 24-hour 
period of airing the chamber AFTER the use to prevent accidental death of 
the workers. Cyanide is EXTREMELY poisonous. It is nothing to take 
chances with. During this period of aeration the concentration of cyanide 
against the concrete walls would slowly drop to virtually zero. So even 
if the supposed homicidal gas chambers HAD BEEN used for that purpose, 
they would have had long periods of contact with cyanide gas, 
particularly considering the number of people supposedly killed by gas.

Second, the cyanide compound is formed IN the concrete and is a very 
stable chemical. It cannot be leached out in the manner you think 
possible. 

Thus, I find that the ratio of concentration of cyanide of 1000 to one 
between delousing walls and walls of the putative homicidal gas chambers 
to have definite probative value. On this point score 0.95 for the 
revisionists and only 0.05 for the exterminationists. This is my 
evaluation of the matter as it stands now. You are free to differ with 
me. H. Ayre.







From kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca Sat Aug 26 14:20:43 PDT 1995
Article: 4800 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!not-for-mail
From: kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Cyanide compounds cannot be leached?
Date: 26 Aug 1995 13:19:47 -0700
Organization: The Nizkor Project
Lines: 85
Message-ID: <41nvl3$om3@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
References:  <415dd9$hvu@calvino.alaska.net>  <41nq38$nq9@calvino.alaska.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca
Summary: nonsense

In article <41nq38$nq9@calvino.alaska.net>,
 Henry Ayre wrote:

>Second, the cyanide compound is formed IN the concrete and is a very 
>stable chemical. It cannot be leached out in the manner you think 
>possible. 

>From  the Auschwitz FAQ, Part One:

   Furthermore, the delousing chambers are intact while the
   extermination chambers were blown up (a .GIF picture of the one of
   Krema II is available).  Therefore, their walls have been exposed to
   the elements for the last 50 years. The ruins of the gas chamber of
   Krema II are covered with about 3 feet of water during certain
   periods of the year; HCN compounds easily dissolve in these
   surroundings.  Nonetheless, so much gassing took place that some of
   the compound remained.

   Summarizing, the walls of the extermination gas chambers were in
   contact with HCN for a much shorter time then those of the delousing
   chambers, and for the last 45 years were exposed to surroundings
   which dissolve the compounds, while the delousing rooms were not.
   Therefore it is obvious that less traces of compounds would remain in
   them.  

   This fact - that all, or most, of the compounds would vanish during
   45 years of exposure - is clearly stated in the report written by the
   experts of the Cracow Institute of Forensic Research. 

(As noted elsewhere in the faq, the Cracow Forensic Institute's 
December, 1945 investigation found hydrocyanic compounds on the
ventilation grills as well.) 

Here's a report from that institute, extracted from the
Leuchter FAQ, Part 1:

        INSTITUTE OF FORENSIC RESEARCH
        In the name of Prof. Dr. Jan Sehn, Krakow
        Division of Forensic Toxicology

                                Krakow, 24 Sept. 1990
                                Westerplatte 9 / Code 31-033
                                Tel. 505-44, 592-24, 287-50
                                Telex 0325213 eksad ...

      The hydrocyanic acid (HCN) that is released from the Zyklon B
      preparation is a liquid with a boiling point of about 27 degrees
      Celsius.  It has an acidic character, and therefore forms
      compounds with metallic salts, which are known as cyanides.  The
      salts of alkaline metals (such as sodium and potassium) are
      water soluble.

      Hydrocyanic acid is a very weak acid, and accordingly its salts
      dissolve easily in stronger acids.  Even carbonic acid, which is
      formed as a reaction of carbon dioxide with water, will dissolve
      ferro-cyanide.

      Stronger acids, such as sulfuric acids, easily dissolve the
      cyanides.  The compounds of cyanide ions with heavy metals are
      longer lasting.  This includes the already mentioned Prussian
      blue, although this will also slowly dissolve in an acidic
      environment.

      Therefore, one can hardly assume that traces of cyanic compounds
      could still be detected in construction materials (plaster,
      brick) after 45 years, after being subjected to the weather and
      the elements (rain, acid oxides, especially sulfuric and
      nitrogen oxides).  More reliable would be the analysis of wall
      plaster [samples] from closed rooms which were not subject to
      weather and the elements (including acid rain).

      The discovery of hydrocyanic acid compounds in samples of
      material which had been subject to the elements can only be
      accidental.

It would seem that the forensics investigation and subsequent
report do not support your contention. Hell, even _Leuchter's_
silly report doesn't support your contention. Do you have some
evidence that does? If so, I'd like to see it.

-- 
     The Nizkor Project: An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
                   Anonymous ftp: ftp.almanac.bc.ca
 Nizkor Web: http://www.almanac.bc.ca (Under construction - permanently!)
    Kenneth McVay OBC.  Home Page: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/~kmcvay


From dkeren@world.std.com Sat Aug 26 14:20:44 PDT 1995
Article: 4802 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!in1.uu.net!world!dkeren
From: dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
Subject: Re: What is 'Holocaust Denial'?
Message-ID: 
Organization: The World, Public Access Internet, Brookline, MA
References:  <415dd9$hvu@calvino.alaska.net>  <41nq38$nq9@calvino.alaska.net>
Date: Sat, 26 Aug 1995 20:17:37 GMT
Lines: 44

Henry Ayre  writes:

# IF millions of people has been gassed to death in these
# supposed homicidal gas chambers (which were not gas-tight)
# as has been claimed, then the use of these chambers would
# have been virtually continuous.

No, this is completely false, as very simple arithmetic will prove.
You keep ignoring this.

The chambers in which the largest number of people were killed
with Zyklon-B are in Krema II and III in Birkenau. Each of
these gas chambers could hold 1,500 people.

Assume then 300 gassings for such a gas chamber; this would mean
a total exposure time of 300 X (20 minutes) = 100 hours.

A delousing chamber, on the other hand, was exposed to the gas
for many hours a day, during a rather long period of time. It is
perfectly reasonable to assume they were exposed to the gas
for a period about a 100 times longer than the walls of the
gas chambers.

Moreover, as has been pointed out to you a few times, it takes
the cyanide time to bond with the wall material. Thus, many short
exposures will result in a smaller amount of compounds than one
long exposure of the same total duration. This is yet another
reason that there are less traces in the homicidal gas chambers,
in which exposures were short.

And lastly, there's the exposure to the elements, for 40 years.
The delousing chambers are intact, the homicidal chambers are
not.

# Second, the cyanide compound is formed IN the concrete and is
# a very stable chemical. It cannot be leached out in the manner
# you think possible.

No. Some of the compounds are unstable. They will wash away with time,
under rain, sun, and acid rain.


-Danny Keren.



From jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca Sat Aug 26 23:06:42 PDT 1995
Article: 4833 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.uoregon.edu!news.bc.net!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!news
From: jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What is 'Holocaust Denial'?
Date: Sat, 26 Aug 1995 23:28:03 GMT
Organization: University of Alberta
Lines: 43
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References:  <40jtl1$e1t@calvino.alaska.net> <40l8nj$i6s@access1.digex.net> <40rda5$pum@calvino.alaska.net> <40s1tf$ue@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <415dd9$hvu@calvino.alaska.net>  <41nq38$nq9@calvino.alaska.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: lydgate.remote.ualberta.ca
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Henry Ayre  wrote:

>IF millions of people has been gassed to death in these supposed 
>homicidal gas chambers (which were not gas-tight) as has been claimed, 
>then the use of these chambers would have been virtually continuous. 
>Moreover, the instructions for the use of Zyklon-B call for a 24-hour 
>period of airing the chamber AFTER the use to prevent accidental death of 
>the workers. Cyanide is EXTREMELY poisonous. It is nothing to take 
>chances with. During this period of aeration the concentration of cyanide 
>against the concrete walls would slowly drop to virtually zero. So even 
>if the supposed homicidal gas chambers HAD BEEN used for that purpose, 
>they would have had long periods of contact with cyanide gas, 
>particularly considering the number of people supposedly killed by gas.

It is true that the instructions from DEGESCH say that a building or
ship must be aerated for 24 hours before being reoccupied, but those
instructions are based upon the assumption that most buildings and
ships holds do not have ventilation systems. As Robert Jan Van Pelt
has shown in _Designers of Death_, the detailed construction plans for
the Kremas call for ventilation facilities and that the remains of the
Kremas at Auschwitz have an accommodation for ventilation shafts as
shown in those plans.

As for the rest of your uninformed assertions about the relative
efficacy of Zyklon B as a killing agent for lice and people and about
its ability to bind chemically with masonry, I suggest you read the
files cyanide.001 and cyanide.002 at 

   ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca/pub/camps/auschwitz

before engaging in any more idle speculation.  These files were
written by the chemist Brian Harmon, with assistance of Michael Stein,
and they form part of the basis for the assertions that you are
quarreling with.

--
 John Morris                               
 at University of Alberta     
------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
 The Nizkor Project: An Electronic Holocaust Resource
  File archives - ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca
  Web page - http://nizkor.almanac.bc.ca



From mstein@access2.digex.net Sat Aug 26 23:06:45 PDT 1995
Article: 4853 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!news.kei.com!simtel!news.sprintlink.net!in2.uu.net!news3.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access2.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Let's hear both sides of the Holocaust story
Date: 26 Aug 1995 23:44:01 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <41opm1$4ml@access2.digex.net>
References:   <41nog9$nq9@calvino.alaska.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access2.digex.net

In article <41nog9$nq9@calvino.alaska.net>,
Henry Ayre   wrote:
>jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:
>>greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) wrote:
>>
>>> THE HOLOCAUST: Let's Hear Both Sides
>>
>>Granting for a moment your claim that deniers' ridiculous and untenable
>>claptrap is a "side," Mr. Raven, I totally agree.  There's no reason why
>>people should be prevented from hearing all viewpoints, even crazy ones
>>like Holocaust-denial.
>>
>
>Unfortunately, Jamie, a fast-growing number of people DO believe there 
>are two sides to the artificially-prolonged atrocity stories of World War 
>Two. If the "exterminationists" publicly claim they want the "deniers" to 
>be able to present the revisionist point of view, why is it that the 
>exterminationists are so occupied with arson, mayhem, influence and 
>intrigue,lawsuits without merit, etcetera in an effort to PREVENT 
>precisely that, a fair debate?  H. Ayre.

    Falsely writing as if "exterminationists" are a monolithic entity with
a hive mind is not what I would call professional thinking, Mr. Ayre. 
Jamie McCarthy claimed to be speaking for no one other than himself,
though on this matter he speaks for both me and Mr. McVay (not McKay). 
Your comment certainly appears to be a not terribly well disguised attempt
to insinuate that Jamie McCarthy is being disingenuous in making his 
statement, using as your "evidence" what someone _else_ does.

    I could similarly offer the rhetorical question that if "deniers" 
publicly claim that they are not motivated by antisemitism, but only
regard for historical truth, why is it that "the deniers" spend so much
time bashing Israel, Jews, the Talmud, etc.?  What is your reaction to 
this argument, Mr. Ayre?

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca Sun Aug 27 08:32:24 PDT 1995
Article: 4877 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!news
From: jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Some erroneous assumptions about gassing
Date: Sun, 27 Aug 1995 07:13:52 GMT
Organization: University of Alberta
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <41p628$uaq@rover.ucs.ualberta.ca>
References:  <415dd9$hvu@calvino.alaska.net>  <41nq38$nq9@calvino.alaska.net> <41ou8o$6p4@access2.digex.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: lydgate.remote.ualberta.ca
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

mstein@access2.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>    If Mr. Ayre is taking this from the DEGESCH manual, he is comparing
>apples and oranges.  The chambers of Kremas II and III had forced air
>extraction systems; hence the concentration would _quickly_ drop to
>virtually zero.  (As related in "Anatomy of the Auschwitz Death Camp," at
>one point in the design, there was a request for a wooden fan for that
>system - hinting at some concern about corrosion.)  IV and V apparently did
>not; I know less about these and want to do some more research. 

I looked at Van Pelt's analysis of the Krema plans again (I still
don't have the book; I'm relying on the video). Kremas II and III had
forced air extraction systems because they used pre-existing
underground structures for the gas chambers. Kremas IV and V were
purpose-built above ground as killing machines and had large double
doors for ventilating the chambers.

--
 John Morris                               
 at University of Alberta     
------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
 The Nizkor Project: An Electronic Holocaust Resource
  File archives - ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca
  Web page - http://nizkor.almanac.bc.ca



From dkeren@world.std.com Sun Aug 27 08:32:25 PDT 1995
Article: 4879 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!in2.uu.net!world!dkeren
From: dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
Subject: Re: Some erroneous assumptions about gassing
Message-ID: 
Organization: The World, Public Access Internet, Brookline, MA
References:  <41nq38$nq9@calvino.alaska.net> <41ou8o$6p4@access2.digex.net> <41p628$uaq@rover.ucs.ualberta.ca>
Date: Sun, 27 Aug 1995 07:47:09 GMT
Lines: 11

If my memory serves me right, the air-extraction system of Kremas
II and III had a capacity of 8,000 cubic meters an hour. Pressac's
book has the original documents, with the exact figures.

The book also contains the results of the tests conducted on
the ventilation grills of the gas chamber of Krema III, and the
amount of cyanide compounds found on them.


-Danny Keren.



From mstein@access2.digex.net Sun Aug 27 08:32:27 PDT 1995
Article: 4892 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsjunkie.ans.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news1.digex.net!news3.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access2.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Some erroneous assumptions about gassing
Date: 27 Aug 1995 01:02:16 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 111
Message-ID: <41ou8o$6p4@access2.digex.net>
References:  <415dd9$hvu@calvino.alaska.net>  <41nq38$nq9@calvino.alaska.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access2.digex.net

In article <41nq38$nq9@calvino.alaska.net>,
Henry Ayre   wrote:
>IF millions of people has been gassed to death

    And IF millions of people had been gassed to death at Auschwitz,
perhaps the Auschwitz State Museum would not have had to take down the
marker, which in any event was never taken seriously by any but a handful
of western historians.  The total Auschwitz death toll for Jews, according
to Hilberg, is (if I recall correctly) 1.1 million, not all of whom were
gassed.

    If Mr. Ayre seriously believes that orthodox historians claim that 
_millions_ (plural) of people were gassed to death at Auschwitz, perhaps 
he should take his own advice and read more on the subject.

    It goes without saying that if he does _not_ seriously believe this,
yet offers the argument anyway, one must begin to question his
intellectual honesty. 


>in these supposed 
>homicidal gas chambers (which were not gas-tight) as has been claimed, 
>then the use of these chambers would have been virtually continuous. 

    Let us do some simple arithmetic.  Assume that one million people were
gassed at Auschwitz-Birkenau (even this is actually a fair bit on the high
side, as many did perish from "natural" causes).  Let us further ignore
all early gassings in Krema I and the bunkers and farmhouse.  There were
four chambers, one each in Kremas II-V; let us assume all gassings took
place in these.  Let us further assume that gassings took place in batches
of only 400 (though Hoess testified he built for 2,000).  1,000,000 / 400
= 2500 gassings; spread over four chambers that's 625 gassings per
chamber.  Over eighteen months - call it 547 days - that's only slightly
more than one gassing per chamber per day.  According to testimony, this
took well under an hour.  Even using assumptions which I feel are more
than fair in giving Mr. Ayre the benefit of the doubt, this is not what I
would call "virtually continuous." 

    On page 124 of Pressac's "Auschwitz: Technique and Operation of the
Gas Chambers," the affidavit of Sonderkommando member Alter Fajnzylberg
relates that gassings normally occurred a couple of times a week, except
during the arrival of huge numbers of Hungarian Jews in the summer of
1944.  Then the chambers were used daily or even more than once per day. 

    Many people - and it would appear Mr. Ayre is among them - have the
mistaken impression that the description of the operation during the
height of operations in 1944 applied to the entire life of the camp.  He
claims to have done extensive reading on this subject; all I can say is he
must be reading different sources than I am. 


>Moreover, the instructions for the use of Zyklon-B call for a 24-hour 
>period of airing the chamber AFTER the use to prevent accidental death of 
>the workers.  Cyanide is EXTREMELY poisonous. It is nothing to take 
>chances with. During this period of aeration the concentration of cyanide 
>against the concrete walls would slowly drop to virtually zero.

    If Mr. Ayre is taking this from the DEGESCH manual, he is comparing
apples and oranges.  The chambers of Kremas II and III had forced air
extraction systems; hence the concentration would _quickly_ drop to
virtually zero.  (As related in "Anatomy of the Auschwitz Death Camp," at
one point in the design, there was a request for a wooden fan for that
system - hinting at some concern about corrosion.)  IV and V apparently did
not; I know less about these and want to do some more research. 


>So even if the supposed homicidal gas chambers HAD BEEN used for that 
>purpose, they would have had long periods of contact with cyanide gas, 
>particularly considering the number of people supposedly killed by gas.

    Perhaps, after review of the numerical analysis above, Mr. Ayre might
wish to reconsider.  I wonder how many he _does_ think were supposedly 
killed by gas?  And supposed by whom?


>Second, the cyanide compound is formed IN the concrete and is a very 
>stable chemical. It cannot be leached out in the manner you think 
>possible. 

    Prussian blue is fairly stable, yes.  However, it is also necessary to
understand how it forms in the first place.  John Morris has already given
a pointer to the paper written by Brian Harmon (with some editorial
assistance from me) which describes how it forms.  The crucial point is
that the reaction is stepwise; the penultimate product requires a fairly
long time.  If the reaction is aborted, the precursor compounds are _not_ 
stable.

    Perhaps an analogy from everyday life might make this easier.  One can
iron a shirt every day for years and not produce scorch marks.  Over this
time, many spots on the shirt must come into contact with the iron for at
least a second per pressing; over ten years this would be 3,650 seconds. 
Yet leave the iron on the shirt for a few minutes continuously, and a
scorch mark will appear.  In other words, it is not just the cumulative
exposure but the continuous exposure which is important. 


>Thus, I find that the ratio of concentration of cyanide of 1000 to one 
>between delousing walls and walls of the putative homicidal gas chambers 
>to have definite probative value. On this point score 0.95 for the 
>revisionists and only 0.05 for the exterminationists. This is my 
>evaluation of the matter as it stands now. You are free to differ with 
>me.

    Perhaps Mr. Ayre would be so good as to review the items mentioned
above and decide if he wishes to revise his scoring.

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From gmcfee@ibm.net Mon Aug 28 23:19:04 PDT 1995
Article: 5073 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsjunkie.ans.net!news-m01.ny.us.ibm.net!usenet
From: gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Let's hear both sides of the Holocaust story
Date: 29 Aug 1995 01:30:57 GMT
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <41tqkh$3pfs@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
References:  
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X-Newsreader: NeoLogic News for OS/2 [version: 4.3]

In message <41nog9$nq9@calvino.alaska.net> - Henry Ayre  writ
es:
:>
:>jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:
:>>greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) wrote:
:>>
:>>> THE HOLOCAUST: Let's Hear Both Sides
:>>
:>>Granting for a moment your claim that deniers' ridiculous and untenable
:>>claptrap is a "side," Mr. Raven, I totally agree.  There's no reason why
:>>people should be prevented from hearing all viewpoints, even crazy ones
:>>like Holocaust-denial.
:>>
:>
:>Unfortunately, Jamie, a fast-growing number of people DO believe there 
:>are two sides to the artificially-prolonged atrocity stories of World War 
:>Two. If the "exterminationists" publicly claim they want the "deniers" to 
:>be able to present the revisionist point of view, why is it that the 
:>exterminationists are so occupied with arson, mayhem, influence and 
:>intrigue,lawsuits without merit, etcetera in an effort to PREVENT 
:>precisely that, a fair debate?  H. Ayre.

Oh come on, Henry.  That's a crock and you know it.  The deniers are able to 
present their side of the story in this newsgroup every day, and many of them 
do so.  You are confusing the fact that their side of the story is devoid of 
merit with their freedom to present it.





Gord McFee 
"I'll write no line before its time"



From greg.ihr@kaiwan.com Wed Aug 30 09:21:03 PDT 1995
Article: 5307 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!news.uoregon.edu!kaiwan.kaiwan.com!kaiwan094.kaiwan.com!user
From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: My reply to Ken McVay
Date: 30 Aug 1995 14:24:51 GMT
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 66
Message-ID: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan094.kaiwan.com
X-Newsreader: Value-Added NewsWatcher 2.0b27.1+

In message <41iq6c$809@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> Ken McVay presents an ³Open
Letter² to me, Greg Raven, supposedly to urge me to treat him and other
anti-revisionists as graciously as he and the other anti-revisionists have
been treating me, that is, by providing links to anti-revisionists¹ Web
materials from my Web materials.

In so doing, McVay provides some excellent examples of why I have so far
refused to so.

When I first gained Internet access and joined the discussion on
alt.revisionism, I explicitly stated that I had no desire to exchange
personal attacks, and that I hoped that we could all stick with the facts.
The anti-revisionists have consistently refused to do this.

McVay writes:

> As President and Chief Executive Officer of the Institute for
> Historical Review, Mr. Raven, you operate the IHR's WWW
> site, http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr, as a focalpoint for the
> dissemination of neo-Nazi Holocaust denial propaganda.

Just about everything about this paragraph, the first in McVay¹s ³open
letter,² is inaccurate. To save space, I will deal only with the
substantive falsehoods.

First, I am not president and/or CEO of the Institute for Historical
Review, as the IHR has no president and/or CEO.

Second, while it is true that I make available some IHR material on the
World Wide Web, I do so not in my official capacity with the IHR, but
rather I do it on my own time, and I finance it out of my own monies.

Third, to the best of my knowledge, there is no ³neo-Nazi² (or Nazi, for
that matter) or ³Holocaust denial² material among my Web files.

Thus, although McVay attempts to present himself as being interested in a
free exchange of positions, this posting clearly shows that he is more
inclined to personal attacks on revisionists. In his open letter, he even
includes a URL (Universal Resource Locator -- a form of Internet address)
for a file that can only be considered a personal attack on me, and
visitors to his site will find other files personally (and inaccurately)
attacking me and others.

(Some may find it interesting that McVay starts off his Web material with
a quote from Deborah Lipstadt, an anti-revisionist who also
mischaracterizes revisionists and revisionists¹ positions, and who claims
that there must be no debate on the Holocaust issue -- she is right and
the revisionists are wrong, period.)

McVay is not alone among the anti-revisionists on the Internet in
pretending to ask for fair treatment while engaging in personal attacks.
Jamie McCarthy has also attempted to urge me to include a link to his Web
materials on my Web materials. I have not visited McCarthy¹s Web site in
some time, but the last time I did, one of the first things I read was a
misquote of something I wrote, that McCarthy further mischaracterized in
order to cast aspersions on me.

Finally, there are many sites that include pointers to my Web materials.
It is illogical to assume that I would include reverse links to all of
them

-- 
Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
Or, come visit my home page at http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr
The Institute for Historical Review can be reached at:
P.O. Box 241556, Newport Beach, CA 92659


From hostrov@uniserve.com Wed Aug 30 09:21:04 PDT 1995
Article: 5308 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsjunkie.ans.net!swiss.ans.net!newsgate.watson.ibm.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!genmagic!sgigate.sgi.com!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!news.cyberstore.ca!van-bc!vanbc.wimsey.com!fonorola!uniserve1!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Let's hear both sides of the Holocaust story
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 1995 05:44:32 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 203
Message-ID: <420ts5$2ie@enigma.uniserve.com>
References:   <41nog9$nq9@calvino.alaska.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm2-44.tvs.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent v0.55

Henry Ayre  wrote:

>jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:
>>greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) wrote:
>>
>>> THE HOLOCAUST: Let's Hear Both Sides
>>
>>Granting for a moment your claim that deniers' ridiculous and untenable
>>claptrap is a "side," Mr. Raven, I totally agree.  There's no reason why
>>people should be prevented from hearing all viewpoints, even crazy ones
>>like Holocaust-denial.
>>

>Unfortunately, Jamie, a fast-growing number of people DO believe there 
>are two sides to the artificially-prolonged atrocity stories of World War 
>Two. If the "exterminationists" publicly claim they want the "deniers" to 
>be able to present the revisionist point of view, why is it that the 
>exterminationists are so occupied with arson, mayhem, influence and 
>intrigue,lawsuits without merit, etcetera in an effort to PREVENT 
>precisely that, a fair debate?  H. Ayre.

Unfortunately, Henry, you seem to have missed the point of Jamie's
message.  But that aside, much as I would like to be able to return
the compliment you so generously bestowed on me (in response to a post
of mine in another thread), I regret to say that I find your post
considerably less than profound or incisive. 

Forgive me, but I must also add that it is far from "trend setting".
In fact, were you to take the time to review the posts of those who
share your views, since you are blessed with such unusual
perspicacity, you would very quickly see that you have merely joined
the ranks of the lemming-like, psuedo-revisionist whiners.

Since you seem to have missed Mr. McVay's post which very thoroughly
addresses both the "questions" you have raised - as well as those
issues you are likely to raise in subsequent posts -  I shall repost
it here:



Date: 26 Aug 1995 00:55:17 -0700
Organization: The Nizkor Project
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References: <60.71614.4112.0N1F1648@canrem.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca
Xref: uniserve1 can.politics:7983 alt.revisionism:7927

[Followups to alt.revisionism, where this discussion properly
belongs]

In article <60.71614.4112.0N1F1648@canrem.com>,
Christopher Saunders wrote:

>Question #2:  No, I do not  believe  that  6  million  Jews  were
>murdered  by  the  Nazis.  I have learned that the number of Jews
>that were  allegedly  killed  at  Auschwitz  was  approximately 4
>million, and then the number was reduced to 1.1 million, or there

Error #1. 
---------
Mr. Saunders did not pay attention during his
lectures. No-one, no agency, no historian, to my knowledge,
has ever claimed that 4,000,000 _Jews_ were killed at
Auschwitz. 

Had Mr. Saunders been listening more carefully during the
lecture, he would have heard that the Polish Communist
government,  for reasons of its own, inflated the _total_
estimate of those killed at Auschwitz, _not_ the total number
of _Jews_ killed there. (He might have also learned that
Holocaust deniers love playing with this Polish figure,
because it is so easy to mislead those without the time and/or
interest to learn the facts.. interesting coincidence, eh?)

After the fall of Communism in Poland, the figure was reduced
to reflect generally accepted historical reality, but the
number of _Jews_ estimated to have been murdered did _not_ go
down, nor was the Communist figure of 4-million ever a part of
the estimates (nearing 6-million) of total Jewish deaths
during the period made by western historians. These estimates
are based upon pre- and post-war population data, Nazi
statistics like the Wannsee Protocols and the Korherr Report,
commissioned by Himmler.

(URL: ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca/pub/camps/auschwitz/auschwitz.faq1 -
see Section 4.0.)                          
 
>abouts.  I learned that some "gas chambers" in Holocaust  museums
>were  actually reconstructions, and that no Zyklon-B traces could
>be found on the walls of some of these gas chambers.

Error #2.
---------

Mr. Saunders may have been asleep, rather than inattentive, if
this is the impression he received from the lecture. He seems
to be referring to Krema I, where experiments were first
conducted (using Soviet POWs as guinea pigs) with Zyklon B. It
was (and is) located at Auschwitz I, and was converted to a bomb
shelter after more efficient killing machines were built at
Birkenau (Auschwitz II).  Vents were sealed, walls were
installed for additional safety, etc. Following the war, the
additions made during the bomb-shelter stage were removed, and
Krema I was _restored_ to its former, utilitarian, form.

This historical reality is amply documented, and perhaps those
interested will peruse the Auschwitz archives here on
nizkor.almanac.bc.ca to determine the truth of this matter
themselves.

>My knowledge on the Holocaust  is  sketchy,  so if I am mistaken,
>please correct me.  However, I have seen  a  video  by  Holocaust
>Revisionist  David  Cole  (a  Jew),  and  he  presented some very
>interesting evidence.

You are mistaken, and have been corrected. The Cole video, by
the way, is addressed in great detail in my Auschwitz FAQ,
readily available, even in HTML
(http://www.almanac.bc.ca/faqs/auschwitz/index.html) format.

>The main reason why I do  not believe the official version of the
>Holocaust is because anyone who tries to question  these  figures
>is  silenced  or persecuted.  The trial of Ernst Zundel is a good

Error #3.
---------

I have questioned some of those "figures" for four years. No
one, not a single person, Jewish, Moslem, neo-Nazi, or anyone
at all, has ever tried to either silence me or persecute me.
Western _historians_ have questioned various figures for
years, and none have attempted to silence _them_. (See the FAQ
for examples of conflicting estimates among academic
historians of stature.)

>example.  He was put on trial for publishing a book entitled "Did
>Six Million Really Die?".  It is wrong  for a person to be put on
>trial  for questioning an event in human history.  The reason why
>he was put on trial  is  because  certain people did not want his
>version of the Holocaust to get out.  The fact that those  people
>would  try  to  silence  people like Mr. Zundel makes me question
>their version of the holocaust.

I wouldn't _dream_ of silencing Mr. Zuendel. I continually
invite the man to participate in these discussions on the net,
but he seems to have some difficulty with his computer
keyboard, because he hasn't yet shown the ability, or the
willingness, to discuss anything here.

Mr. Zundel, by the way, is a proven liar - an outright fraud.
His publications and his videos contain outright lies.

His videotape "Das Lachout Dokument," which deals with a
blatant forgery often called "The Mueller Document," is still
being distributed in Europe, even though the Lachout document
has been proven, without a _shred_ of doubt, to be phoney to
its core.  (See ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca/pub/orgs/austrian/
austrian-resistance-archives/lachout-document)

Perhaps Mr. Zundel will confront us in alt.revisionism - I'd
enjoy seeing him try and explain his blatent lies.

One of his publications contains outright lies about
statements attributed to one Shmuel Krakowski. In spite of the
fact that the text itself lies, and Mr. Krakowski
has made a public statement to that effect, Mr. Zuendel
continues to make money flogging the publication. That
suggests that his interests lie less in history and more in
the never-ending quest for money and power, particularly if
they can be gained at the expense of Jews.

(http://www.almanac.bc.ca/other-sites/bewise-open-letter/index.html)

How can one explain why a man who publishes utter fabrications
continues to do so after they have been refuted beyond a shred
of doubt? How can anyone claim Canada's leading Nazi
propagandist is being "silenced?"

Please pay more attention in class, Mr. Saunders, and get both
sides of the issue - something Zundel would rather you didn't
do.

Followups directed to alt.revisionism, where this nonsense
properly belongs - if, indeed, it belongs anywhere.

-- 
     The Nizkor Project: An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
                   Anonymous ftp: ftp.almanac.bc.ca
 Nizkor Web: http://www.almanac.bc.ca (Under construction -
permanently!)
    Kenneth McVay OBC.  Home Page: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/~kmcvay





hro
====================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/myssiwyg.html



From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Aug 30 19:18:44 PDT 1995
Article: 5373 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsjunkie.ans.net!gatech!news.sprintlink.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!in1.uu.net!news3.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: My reply to Ken McVay
Date: 30 Aug 1995 17:42:14 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 71
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References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article ,
Greg Raven  wrote:
>In message <41iq6c$809@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> Ken McVay presents an ³Open
>Letter² to me, Greg Raven, supposedly to urge me to treat him and other
>anti-revisionists as graciously as he and the other anti-revisionists have
>been treating me, that is, by providing links to anti-revisionists¹ Web
>materials from my Web materials.
>
>In so doing, McVay provides some excellent examples of why I have so far
>refused to so.
>
>When I first gained Internet access and joined the discussion on
>alt.revisionism, I explicitly stated that I had no desire to exchange
>personal attacks, and that I hoped that we could all stick with the facts.
>The anti-revisionists have consistently refused to do this.

    However, what Greg Raven omits here is that he has also failed to
stick to the facts.  He has presented distortions, deceptive editing, and
mischaracterizations of the words of Pressac, Sereny, Himmler, Mayer, and
Leuchter, among others.

    He has also repeatedly presented naked assertions (such as the final
sentence above) without proper documentation.  This too I do not call
"sticking with the facts." 


>McVay is not alone among the anti-revisionists on the Internet in
>pretending to ask for fair treatment while engaging in personal attacks.
>Jamie McCarthy has also attempted to urge me to include a link to his Web
>materials on my Web materials. I have not visited McCarthy¹s Web site in
>some time, but the last time I did, one of the first things I read was a
>misquote of something I wrote, that McCarthy further mischaracterized in
>order to cast aspersions on me.

    I challenge Mr. Raven to document this with the correct quote and
source and the text as presented by Mr. McCarthy.  Unless he can
substantiate it, Mr. Raven's accusation that Mr. McCarthy _deliberately_
distorted is, of course, a personal attack in and of itself.

    And as noted above, Greg Raven has also posted misquotes and
mischaracterizations of the words of many writers.  In particular, his
characterization of the comments of Pressac regarding the testimony of
Bo"ck was deceptive in the extreme.  I find it impossible to believe that
an honest, intelligent, and literate person could, after comparing Raven's
words with Pressac's, ever agree that the characterization was even
remotely reasonable.  (I find it intriguing that when asked for a page
reference so that his paraphrase could be checked, Raven posted a response
- proving he had seen the request - yet failed to give the page, giving
only a vague and inaccurate description of where in the 400+ page book
Pressac's comment could be found.)

    Raven's complaints are therefore hypocritical. 


>Finally, there are many sites that include pointers to my Web materials.
>It is illogical to assume that I would include reverse links to all of
>them

    A red herring.  Where has Mr. Raven been asked to do this?  Rather,
Mr.  Raven has been asked to provide _one_ link to _one_ site - as it
happens, the one which contains the most factual material for the other
side of the debate Mr. Raven _claims_ to want.

    Does Mr. Raven have a reverse link to _any_ site which could possibly 
be considered as part of the other side of the debate he claims to want?

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From hkatz@earth.usa.net Wed Aug 30 20:28:36 PDT 1995
Article: 5391 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!in1.uu.net!news.usa.net!earth!hkatz
From: hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Cyanide compounds cannot be leached?
Date: 30 Aug 1995 23:17:01 GMT
Organization: Large
Lines: 74
Distribution: World
Message-ID: <422rhd$mr9@shiva.usa.net>
References:  <415dd9$hvu@calvino.alaska.net>  <41nq38$nq9@calvino.alaska.net> <41nvl3$om3@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <422p5c$hp0@calvino.alaska.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: earth.usa.net
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]

In article <422p5c$hp0@calvino.alaska.net>,
Henry Ayre (henri@alaska.net) writes:

	Correct me if I am wrong (and I am sure you will whether I am
	wrong or not), but the samples of the walls of the alleged
	homicidal gas chambers were taken IN DEPTH, not just on the
	surface of the concrete. The cyanides that are formed are IN the
	concrete, not just on the surface. Leaching would certainly
	lower the concentration of cyanides on the surface of the walls
	but it would have relatively little effect on the cyanides that
	were formed IN the concrete walls due to the porosity
	of the concrete. 

Mr. Ayre once again demonstrates his difficulty with reading.  The
article that he is responding to quite clearly states that the walls of
the gas chambers were not in contact with the gas for nearly as long as
the walls of delousing chambers.  So, in the death chambers the
cyanides did not get to penetrate deeply into the concrete walls.  Mr.
Ayre's comments show no indication that he read the material.


	Rather than all this vain and useless speculation on the part of
	the exterminationists about solubility and leaching...

Mr. Ayre errs.  Holocaust deniers routinely substitute "vain and
useless specualtion" for hard facts, but the facts of the article he
responds to were collected by experts -- another point he apparently
missed in his "reading!"


	...in order to explain away this extraordinary ratio of
	1000 to 1 in cyanides concentration, one would think that they
	would produce a replicable experiment that would show that such
	leaching does occur and could result in these figures. 

Experiments have been done on cyanides for many years now, and I
seriously doubt that the chemists who produced the report that Mr. Ayre
cannot understand need to repeat them all just to satisfy him.


	They do not, after all, lack in talented people to help them in
	devising this experiment.

Unfortunately, Mr. Ayre and his ilk do lack talented people to
interpret the results of such a test.  If Mr. Ayre could understand the
science of chemistry he would not be making demands for unnecessary
experiments.


	After all, it is up to the exterminationists to explain 
	to everyone's satisfaction the 1000 to 1 ratio, not the
	revisionists responsiblity.

Not to everyone's satisfaction! -- just those who are capable  of
understanding a scientific discussion.  If Mr. Ayre knew the first
thing about chemistry, and if he could read the articles he comments on
with comprehension, he would know that every single one of the
objections he has raised here were answered thoroughly by the article
he has been criticizing.


	As of now I continue to think that the ratio of 1000 to 1 
	is probative evidence that the homicidal gas chambers were
	a war-time atrocity story and nothing more. H. Ayre. 

What Mr. Ayre chooses to "continue to think" and six bits will get him
a cup of coffee at the local diner.

--
Harry Katz

Do as much or as little as thou canst, only let thy intention
be always good.
	-- The Wit and Wisdom of the Talmud, Madison C. Peters, ed.


From dkeren@world.std.com Wed Aug 30 22:26:27 PDT 1995
Article: 5409 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!news.bc.net!news.uoregon.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!lade.news.pipex.net!pipex!bt!btnet!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!in1.uu.net!world!dkeren
From: dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
Subject: Re: Cyanide compounds cannot be leached?
Message-ID: 
Organization: The World, Public Access Internet, Brookline, MA
References:  <41nq38$nq9@calvino.alaska.net> <41nvl3$om3@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <422p5c$hp0@calvino.alaska.net>
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 1995 00:39:16 GMT
Lines: 41

Henry Ayre  writes:

# Correct me if I am wrong (and I am sure you will whether I
# am wrong or not), but the samples of the walls of the alleged
# homicidal gas chambers were taken IN DEPTH, not just on the
# surface of the concrete.

It was explained to you at length that short exposures, as
in homicidal gassing, don't allow the cyanide much time to
bond with the wall materials.

# As of now I continue to think that the ratio of 1000 to
# 1 is probative evidence that the homicidal gas chambers
# were a war-time atrocity story and nothing more.

I will check to see if that is indeed the ratio. But, since
(again, as explained to you at great length), the walls
of the homicidal chambers were exposed to the gas for a period
perhaps a 100 times shorter than the walls of the delousing
chambers (as homicidal gassing take about 15 minutes and wasn't
done every day, while delousing takes many hours and was done
continuously), plus what is mentioned above re the short
exposures, plus the 40-year-long exposure to the elements
of the ruins of the homicidal chambers (while the delousing
chambers were intact) - all perfectly explain this ratio.

Unfortunately, although this is explained to you again and
again, you do not seem to be able to understand it.

You also continue to ignore the fact that cyanide compounds
were discovered on the ventilation grills of Krema III. This
is mentioned again and again, and you just keep ignoring it.

This type of behavior is typical of Holocaust deniers - they
keep ignoring the evidence, while repeating claims which have
already been refuted many times. And then they whine when
they are called idiots.


-Danny Keren.



From greg.ihr@kaiwan.com Thu Aug 31 09:45:57 PDT 1995
Article: 5426 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!gatech!news.uoregon.edu!kaiwan.kaiwan.com!kaiwan076.kaiwan.com!user
From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Yet another personal attack ...
Date: 31 Aug 1995 03:28:27 GMT
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 82
Message-ID: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan076.kaiwan.com
X-Newsreader: Value-Added NewsWatcher 2.0b27.1+

In article <3usqqe$2qe@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, jwccti1@aol.com (JWCCTI1) wrote:

> Greg Raven, a Jew-hater of major proportions writing on the 
>     Institute for Historical Revisionism said

This is an absolutely untrue statement, and you neither have nor could
have any proof whatsoever to support it. Why are you so interested in
lying about me?

> Three years ago, Greg Raven also said ....
> 
> 
> >           Category 15,  Topic 4
> >            Message 33        Fri Mar 13, 1992
> >            G.RAVEN                      at 03:02 EST
> 
> >       My only concern is in going after the facts. As such, I am not
> >       interested in defending Adolf Hitler to my dying breath. I will
> say,
> >       however, that he was a great man ... certainly greater than
> >       Churchill and FDR put together, and possibly the greatest leader
> of
> >       our century, if not longer. This is not to say that he was
> perfect,
> >       but he about the best thing that could have happened to Germany.

That's right. I don't really care much about Adolf Hitler, dead or alive.
However, I do care that he as a leader is demonized for actions that are
no worse and sometimes better than other leaders of the time. Why can't
Hitler's actions be regarded dispassionately, just as are those of Stalin,
Churchill, and Roosevelt, three of the blood-thirstiest world leaders
ever?

By the way, one of things for which I think Hitler should be given credit
is foreseeing the danger of communism, and fighting it instead of making
communists his ally.

> Perhaps we could get Greg to talk about "The Lawsuit" a few years back.

Sure. We kicked Mel Mermelstein's butt, in our first round of motions, and
he voluntarily dropped the rest of his suit against us. I'm rather proud
of it. Those wishing more information about this can visit my Web site at:

   http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr

for more information.

> Maybe we could get Greg to talk about the connection between the Institute
> for Historical Revisionism and one Fritz Berg.

What connection? Fritz is not on our editorial advisory board nor is he on
our board of directors. In short, he has nothing to do with the IHR,
although we do hope that he, as an intelligent and stauch revisionist,
will continue to contribute articles to the Journal of Historical Review,
which the IHR publishes.

> Maybe we could get Greg to give the Insititute for Historical
> Revisionism's street address on Newport Blvd., right down the street.

The IHR does not have a street address on Newport Blvd.

> Maybe we could get Greg to name one official with the IHR who isn't a
> rabid antisemite.

There are only two officials at the IHR, myself and Mark Weber, and
neither of us is an anti-Semite of any type, rabid or otherwise.
Furthermore, you neither have nor could have any evidence to the contrary
because it doesn't exist.

> Hey, Greg, what do you tell all your neighbors at home about the IHR? 
> More to the point, which of your neighbors knows about your connection to
> Holocaust revisionism and denial?  

I'm not embarrassed about my connection with the IHR. In fact, I am proud
of it. I use my own name and I make public appearances. What more should I
be doing?

-- 
Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
Or, come visit my home page at http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr
The Institute for Historical Review can be reached at:
P.O. Box 241556, Newport Beach, CA 92659


From bzs@world.std.com Thu Aug 31 09:45:58 PDT 1995
Article: 5428 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!in1.uu.net!world!bzs
From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Cyanide compounds cannot be leached?
In-Reply-To: Henry Ayre's message of 30 Aug 1995 22:36:28 GMT
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References: 
	<415dd9$hvu@calvino.alaska.net> 
	<41nq38$nq9@calvino.alaska.net> <41nvl3$om3@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
	<422p5c$hp0@calvino.alaska.net>
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 1995 03:32:24 GMT
Lines: 106


From: Henry Ayre 
>Correct me if I am wrong (and I am sure you will whether I am wrong or 
>not), but the samples of the walls of the alleged homicidal gas chambers 
>were taken IN DEPTH, not just on the surface of the concrete. The 
>cyanides that are formed are IN the concrete, not just on the surface. 


Well, correct ME if I'm wrong but given the scope and magnitude of the
holocaust don't you find it just a little bit odd that you're reduced
to discussing the amount of cyanide remaining in one wall in one camp
after years of exposure to the elements?

Who ever agreed that this is somehow the critical test that shall
decide the truth of the Holocaust or not?

Not I. Sounds like a load of crap to me, a holocaust denier
desparately grasping at straws.

Worse, this whole thing was invented by a holocaust-denier, Fred
Leuchter, who was paid by some other holocaust deniers to go have a
look at these walls and write up a report about their cyanide content.

Unfortunately Mr Leuchter misrepresented himself as some sort of
execution device engineer to everyone, including to the people who
hired him. Leuchter managed to get himself later hauled into court for
misrepresenting himself as an engineer, he had no such formal
training, has a bachelor's degree in history or something like that.

This is crap built out of crap and piled on top of crap.

If holocaust deniers had anything more substantive evidence for their
bizarre beliefs beyond Fred Leuchter's cyanide-wall measurements and
similar odds and ends boy oh boy don't you think we would've heard
them by now?

But, no, all the holocaust deniers give us is innuendo, crazy
analysis, vague and mostly transparent attempts to cast doubt on
existing evidence, and often completely fabricated claims.

Look, there are thousands of living witnesses to the holocaust. Their
stories reasonably corroborate in great detail. There's no reason to
believe they were given the opportunity to collaborate their stories
(particularly the ones who testified just at the end of the war.)

There are Nazi documents, for example memos and reports written
between Nazi officers during the war in the regular course of their
duties documenting the holocaust.

The Franke-Gricksch report comes to mind. He was a big shot in the
Nazi army, a Sturmbannfuehrer (that's basically a general, right?), he
was sent to Auschwitz on May 14-16, 1943 to inspect the killing
operations and specifically writes about the gas chambers.

Franke-Gricksch writes his report for none other than Heinrich
Himmler, his boss, and Reichsfuehrer-SS.

It's not the only document by far, but boy it certainly makes arguing
about some denier's investigation into cyanide remains in a 40 year
old wall seem pretty damned thin doesn't it?

  "..the unfit go to cellars in a large house which are entered
   from outside.  They go down five or six steps into a fairly long, 
   well-constructed and well-ventilated cellar area, which is lined 
   with benches to the left and right. It is brightly lit, and 
   the benches are numbered.  The prisoners are told that they are to 
   be cleansed and disinfected for their new assignments.  They must therefore 
   completely undress to be bathed. To avoid panic and to prevent
   disturbances of any kind, they are instructed to arrange their
   clothing neatly under their respective numbers, so that they will
   be able to find their things again after their bath.  Everything
   proceeds in a perfectly orderly fashion.  Then they pass through 
   a small corridor and enter a large cellar room which resembles a
   shower bath.  In this room are three large pillars, into which
   certain materials can be lowered from outside the cellar room.
   When three- to four-hundred people have been herded into this room,
   the doors are shut, and containers filled with the substances are
   dropped down into the pillars.  As soon as the containers touch 
   the base of the pillars, they release particular substances that put
   the people to sleep in one minute. A few minutes later, the door opens
   on the other side, where the elevator is located. . . . Then
   the corpses are loaded into elevators and brought up to the first
   floor, where ten large crematoria are located. (Because fresh
   corpses burn particularly well, only 50-100 lbs. of coke are needed
   for the whole process.)  The job itself is performed by Jewish
   prisoners, who never step outside this camp again.
      The results of this `resettlement action' to date: 500,000 Jews
   Current capacity of the `resettlement action' ovens: 10,000
   in twenty-four hours."
                  --from report entitled "Resettlement of Jews"
                    written by SS-Sturmbannfuehrer Alfred Franke-Gricksch
                    for SS-Col. M. von Herff and RF-SS H. Himmler, after
                    inspection of Auschwitz camp on 14-16 May 1943.  This
                    excerpt from "Hitler and the Final Solution" by
                    Gerald Fleming, ISBN 0-520-05103-3.


Tell us what to do with that, and we can discuss a few other documents
like it, and perhaps eventually we can get to a discussion of cyanide
remains in 40 year old walls...

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
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From bzs@world.std.com Thu Aug 31 09:45:59 PDT 1995
Article: 5431 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!sgigate.sgi.com!uhog.mit.edu!news.kei.com!world!bzs
From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Yet another personal attack ...
In-Reply-To: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com's message of 31 Aug 1995 03:28:27 GMT
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References: 
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 1995 04:36:59 GMT
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
>> Perhaps we could get Greg to talk about "The Lawsuit" a few years back.
>
>Sure. We kicked Mel Mermelstein's butt, in our first round of motions, and
>he voluntarily dropped the rest of his suit against us. I'm rather proud
>of it. Those wishing more information about this can visit my Web site at:

Examine how the truth is handled in Mr Raven's hands, it tells us all
a lot about him (note that "we" in Raven's comment above is the IHR):

        -----from the last time we went around this corner---

Here is a short history of the court proceedings, followed by
the court transcripts:


   1)  Mr. Mermelstein wrote a letter to the Jerusalem Post;
   2)  the IHR wrote him a letter offering him $50,000 for proof "that Jews
       were  gassed in gas-chambers at Auschwitz";
   3)  he provided proof;
   4)  the IHR refused to pay;
   5)  he sued them;
   6)  the court said that he had provided proof;
   7)  the IHR et al paid him $90,000 and apologized.

The judgment of the court is below (exhibit A).  

Below that is the Stipulation for Entry of Judgment (i.e., exactly 
what the two parties agreed to - as opposed to the judgment of the 
court). This is exhibit B. Note the judge's ruling:

**************************************************************************
     "WHEREAS, on October 9, 1981, the parties in dispute in the litigation
  filed cross-motions for summary judgment resulting in the court, per the
  Honorable Thomas T. Johnson, taking judicial notice as follows:
  "'Under Evidence Code Section 452(h), this court does take judicial
  notice of the fact that Jews were gassed to death at the Auschwitz
  Concentration Camp in Poland during the summer of 1944'" and "'It just
  simply is a fact that falls within the definition of Evidence Code Section
  452(h).  It is not reasonably subject to dispute.  And it is capable of
  immediate and accurate determination by resort to sources of reasonably
  indisputable accuracy.  It is simply a fact.'"
************************************************************************** ).

(Also contained below is the letter which Mel Mermelstein wrote to the 
Jerusalem Post (exhibit C) and the letter of reply from the IHR stating 
the $50,000 award and the conditions for being awarded the money 
(exhibit D).)

And the IHR tried to weasel out of it again in 1991, and again the
judge, the Hon. Stephen O'Neil this time, affirmed the judicial notice with
the statement that "it is just not disputable."  (The transcript of the
discussion of this point is also below (exhibit E).)

In closing, Mel Mermelstein has written a book about the Holocaust.  The
title is "By Bread Alone, The Story of A-4685" (ISBN 0-9606534-0-6) and it
can be ordered from:
  Auschwitz Study Foundation, Inc.
  7422 Cedar Street, P.O. Box 2232
  Huntington Beach, CA  92647
  (213)592-5558 or (714)848-1101 .


*****  A  *****  A  *****  A  *****  A  *****  A  *****  A  *****  A  *****


		 SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA
		       FOR THE COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES

MEL MERMELSTEIN.                )    No. C 356 542
         Plaintiff,             )
vs.                             )    JUDGMENT
                                )
INSTITUTE FOR HISTORICAL        )
REVIEW, et al.                  )
         Defendants.            )

     Pursuant to the Stipulation for Entry of Judgment executed on July 22,
1985, the Court renders the following judgment:

    1.  Defendants LIBERTY LOBBY, WILLIS CARTO, ELISABETH CARTO, LEGION FOR
SURVIVAL OF FREEDOM, INSTITUTE FOR HISTORICAL REVIEW, and NOONTIDE PRESS,
and each of them, are jointly and severally liable to plaintiff MEL
MERMELSTEIN for the sum of One Hundred Fifty Thousand Dollars ($150,000.00),
reduced to the sum of Ninety Thousand Dollars ($90,000.00) payable as
follows:
       (a) Fifty Thousand Dollars ($50,000.00) on August 1, 1985, and
delivered to the law offices of ALLRED, MAROKO, GOLDBERG & RIBAKOFF;
       (b)  Twenty Thousand Dollars ($20,000.00) on September 1, 1985;
       (c)  Twenty Thousand Dollars ($20,000.00) on October 1, 1985.
    2.  Should any of the installments not be made by the defendants against
whom judgment herein is entered within the time period provided, plaintiff,
at his sole option and discretion, shall have the following options:
       (a) To rescind the Stipulation for Entry of Judgment and proceed to
trial and any payments received by plaintiff to that date from defendants
shall not be returned to said defendants; or
       (b) Plaintiff may request entry of Judgment against each of said
defendants, jointly or severally, in the sum of One Hundred Fifty Thousand
Dollars ($150,000.00).
    3.  Defendants LIBERTY LOBBY, WILLIS CARTO, ELISABETH CARTO, LEGION FOR
SURVIVAL OF FREEDOM, INSTITUTE FOR HISTORICAL REVIEW, and NOONTIDE PRESS,
shall issue and execute, by a duly authorized representative, a Letter of
Apology to Mel Mermelstein, as follows:
  "Each of the answering defendants do hereby officially and formally
  apologize to Mr. Mel Mermelstein, a survivor of Auschwitz-Birkenau and
  Buchenwald, and all other survivors of Auschwitz for the pain, anguish and
  suffering he and all other Auschwitz survivors have sustained relating to
  the $50,000 reward offer for proof that "Jews were gassed in gas chambers at
  Auschwitz".

DATED: AUG 5, 1985

                                          ROBERT A. WENKE, JUDGE
                                          SUPERIOR COURT

APPROVED AS TO FORM AND CONTENT:

G. G. BAUMEN
Attorney for Defendants
INSTITUTE FOR HISTORICAL REVIEW,
LEGION FOR SURVIVAL OF FREEDOM,
ELISABETH CARTO and NOONTIDE PRESS

VON ESCH & ASSOCIATES
Attorneys for Defendants
LIBERTY LOBBY and WILLIS CARTO


*****  B  *****  B  *****  B  *****  B  *****  B  *****  B  *****  B  *****


			    STATEMENT OF RECORD
				    AND
		    LETTER OF APOLOGY TO MEL MERMELSTEIN

     "WHEREAS, the Legion for Survival of Freedom, and the Institute for
Historical Review, sent by letter dated November 20, 1980, directly to Mel
Mermelstein, a survivor of Auschwitz-Birkenau and Buchenwald, an exclusive
reward offer in a letter marked "'personal'" dated November 20, 1980,
offering Mr. Mermelstein a $50,000 exclusive reward for "'proof that Jews
were gassed in gas chambers at Auschwitz'" "and further stating that if Mr.
Mermelstein did not respond to the reward offer "'very soon"', "the
Institute for Historical Review would ' publicize that fact to the mass
media' ..."
     "WHEREAS, Mr. Mermelstein formally applied for said $50,000 reward on
December 18, 1980; and
     "WHEREAS, Mr. Mermelstein now contends that the Institute for
Historical Review knew, or should have known, from Mr. Mermelstein's letter
to the editor of the Jerusalem Post dated August 17, 1980, that Mr.
Mermelstein contended he was a survivor of Auschwitz-Birkenau and
Buchenwald; knew, or should have known, that Mr. Mermelstein contended that
his mother and two sisters were gassed to death at Auschwitz; and knew, or
should have known, of his contention that at dawn on May 22, 1944, he
observed his mother and two sisters, among other women and children, being
lured and driven into the gas chambers at Auschwitz-Birkenau, which he later
discovered to be Gas Chamber No. 5; and
     "WHEREAS, on October 9, 1981, the parties in dispute in the litigation
filed cross-motions for summary judgment resulting in the court, per the
Honorable Thomas T. Johnson, taking judicial notice as follows:
  "'Under Evidence Code Section 452(h), this court does take judicial
  notice of the fact that Jews were gassed to death at the Auschwitz
  Concentration Camp in Poland during the summer of 1944'" and "'It just
  simply is a fact that falls within the definition of Evidence Code Section
  452(h).  It is not reasonably subject to dispute.  And it is capable of
  immediate and accurate determination by resort to sources of reasonably
  indisputable accuracy.  It is simply a fact.'"
     "WHEREAS, Mr. Mermelstein and other survivors of Auschwitz contend that
they suffered severe emotional distress resulting from said reward offer and
subsequent conduct of the Institute of Historical Review; and
     "WHEREAS, the Institute for Historical Review and Legion for Survival
of Freedom now contend that in offering such reward there was no intent to
offend, embarrass or cause emotional strain to anyone, including Mr.
Mermelstein, a survivor of Auschwitz-Birkenau and Buchenwald Concentration
Camps of World War II, and a person who lost his father, mother and two
sisters who also were inmates of Auschwitz;
     "WHEREAS, the Institute for Historical Review and Legion for Survival
of Freedom should have been aware that the reward offer would cause Mr.
Mermelstein and other survivors of Auschwitz to suffer severe emotional
distress which the Institute for Historical Review and Legion for Survival
of Freedom, now recognize is regrettable and abusive to survivors of
Auschwitz.

		    LETTER OF APOLOGY TO MEL MERMELSTEIN

  "Each of the answering defendants do hereby officially and formally
apologize to Mr. Mel Mermelstein, a survivor of Auschwitz-Birkenau and
Buchenwald, and all other survivors of Auschwitz for the pain, anguish and
suffering he and all other Auschwitz survivors have sustained relating to
the $50,000 reward offer for proof that "Jews were gassed in gas chambers at
Auschwitz".

DATED: 7/24/85             G. G. Baumen
                           Attorney for Defendants
                           Legion For Survival of Freedom,
                           Institute for Historical Review,
                           Noontide Press, and Elisabeth Carto

DATED: 7/24/85             MARK F. VON ESCH
                           Attorneys for Defendants
                           Liberty Lobby and Willis Carto


*****  C  *****  C  *****  C  *****  C  *****  C  *****  C  *****  C  *****


THE JERUSALEM POST  (INTERNATIONAL EDITION), 24-30 AUGUST 1980

     Sir, - By now you may have heard of the so-called "prestigious" names: 
  1. Dr. Austin J. App (retired) La Salle College, Philadelphia
  2. John Bennett, Victoria Council for Civil Liberties, Australia
  3. Dr. Reinhard K. Buchner, California State University, Long Beach
  4. Dr. Arthur R. Butz, Northwestern University, Illinois
  5. James E. Egolf, Duquesne University, Pennsylvania
  6. Dr. Robert Faurisson, University of Lyon-2, France
  7. Ditlieb Felderer, Bible Researcher, Sweden
  8. Dr. James J. Martin, Institute of Historical Review
  9. Udo Walendy, Varlag Fur Volkstrum & Zeitgeschictsforschung.
     You may have also read about a recent publication of the so-called
"Journal of Historical Review" which originated in Torrance, California.  If
by chance you have not heard of these gentlemen, nor read about the
so-called "Journal of Historical Review," allow me to inform you that these
university professors, some of them former Nazis of the old Hitlerite
regime, have taken upon themselves to use and abuse our colleges and
universities throughout the western world, in particular the United States,
to spread lies, hatred and bigotry vis-a-vis the subject known as the
"Holocaust."  They even invented new titles to distort these awesome
historical events.  "The Hoax of the 20th Century," "The Myth of the Six
Million," etc., etc.
     What can one say, when once again we sit idly by as these highly
acclaimed professors, in highly accredited universities are "at it again."
They are teaching our new generation that the chimneys of Auschwitz were
only those of the bakeries.  That there were no gas chambers at
Auschwitz-Birkenau.  That Dachau was a peaceful town within Nazi Germany and
that the "six million" European Jews fled Nazism and have been living
peacefully in Israel ever since.
     As one who survived the infernos of Auschwitz-Birkenau and Buchenwald,
my eyes are still blurring from the vision of that nightmare and my ears are
still ringing with the agonizing sounds of men, women and little children
who were lured and driven into the gas chambers disguised as shower rooms,
solely and exclusively because they were Jewish.  These "prestigious"
gentlemen mentioned above, as well as the bigoted organizations they
represent, have the gall to offer any survivor of the Holocaust a $50,000,
and possibly $100,000 award if he or she can prove that indeed gassings of
men, women and little children had actually taken place during that awesome
period known as the "Holocaust."
     I shall be leaving for the 10th time to a survivors' conference in
October to be held at Auschwitz.  Perhaps some of these "prestigious"
gentlemen would like to accompany me, at which time, I could physically
point out the places from where I saw the actual gassings of men, women and
little children in gas chambers disguised as shower rooms.
                               MELVIN MERMELSTEIN
                               Huntington Beach, California


*****  D  *****  D  *****  D  *****  D  *****  D  *****  D  *****  D  *****


                                 INSTITUTE FOR HISTORICAL REVIEW
                                 20 November 1980

Dear Mr. Mermelstein (sic):
     Your recent letter in the Jerusalem Post indicates that you can prove
that Jews were gassed in gas-chambers at Auschwitz.
     At our 1979 Revisionist Convention we announced a $50,000 reward for
proof of this allegation.  To date, no one has stepped forward, and at the
1980 Revisionist Convention we suspended the reward and replaced it with a
$25,000 reward for proof that The Diary of Anne Frank is authentic, and
another $25,000 reward for proof that Jews were turned into bars of soap by
the Nazis.
     In the circumstances, we will re-open the $50,000 reward so that you
can apply.  I enclose the necessary application forms.  Please note that the
evidence will be judged along the same standards as evidence in a U.S.
criminal court; not the standards of the Nuremberg Trials.
     If we do not hear from you, we will be obliged to draw our own
conclusions, and publicize this fact to the mass media, including the
Jerusalem Post.
     I look forward to hearing from you very soon.

Sincerely,
Lew Brandon
Director


*****  E  *****  E  *****  E  *****  E  *****  E  *****  E  *****  E  *****


		 SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA
		       FOR THE COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES

DEPARTMENT NO. 82                                HON. STEPHEN O'NEIL, JUDGE

MEL MERMELSTEIN.                      )
         PLAINTIFF,                   )
VS.                                   )  NO. C 629224
                                      )  Consolidated with
LEGION FOR THE SURVIVAL OF FREEDOM    )  NO. SOC 95211
etc., et al.,                         )
              Defendant.              )

			 TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
			      January 10, 1991

..................
THE COURT: .........
     All right?
     Now, let's handle the judicial notice matter.
MR. HULSY (lawyer for defendant/responding party):
     All right.
     The judicial notice matter, your Honor - perhaps the court could give
me a little guidance on its thinking on how it arrived it, because there
were three or four different theories proffered..
THE COURT:
     Certainly.  And that's why I wrote down all four sections of the
Evidence Code and have it right in front of me; because in essence, if you
will, it was on two theories:  One, the previous matter, I believe it was
Judge Johnson.
     So under Evidence Code sections 452(c) and (d), that alone permits this
court to take judicial notice under those sections of the Evidence Code I
just cited.  But I'm taking it a step further; and I'm adding, in addition,
as a reason Evidence Code sections 452(g) and (h), that - and if you'd like
me, I'll quote (h) in particular:
  "Facts and propositions that are not reasonably subject to dispute and are
  capable of immediate and accurate determination by resort to sources of
  reasonably indisputable accuracy."
     So for all of those reasons, the request for judicial notice is
granted.
MR. HULSY:
     Okay.  Well, in other words, you're deciding it anew, as well as
holding that you're collaterally estopped to raise it.
THE COURT:
     For all of the above.
MR. HULSY:
     All right.
     Well, I don't suppose I'm going to change the court's mind; but when
you look at things like the number of moons around Jupiter, we pull out an
old Encyclopedia Britannica, and they'll have a statement, very factual,
about what they knew at that time.  This is - there's been developments in
the last ten years, since this was last looked at by the court; and the
historians are still pondering over this area.
     It was our - my feeling is that it's too controversial - it's a jury
matter, but I really don't have any new case.
THE COURT:
     Well -
MR. HULSY:
     - I thought that the -
THE COURT:
     - more important than a new case, how about a new fact?
MR. HULSY:
     Well, I'm - I'm not -
THE COURT:
     Because, again, I emphasize the language, "reasonably indisputable
accuracy." 
MR. HULSY:
     Well, it takes away a major area from the role of the jury, and this - 
THE COURT:
     Well, there's also a society in England, I believe, called the Flat
Earth Society.
MR. HULSY:
     True.
THE COURT:
     So, I mean, some people may not want to take Caribbean cruises for fear
of falling off the end of the earth - you know.  But reasonably indisputably
accurate, I'd say the earth is a sphere.  I mean - you know - how far are we
going to carry this?
MR. HULSY:
     My thought is, your Honor, that's a spurious analogy.  I've tried to
use the moons of Jupiter where, it's a continue- - we're discovering now,
we've got twenty -
THE COURT:
     Well, you're entitled to your opinion - 
MR. HULSY:
     Right.
THE COURT:
     - as it being spurious, sir.  I - you know -
MR. HULSY.
     I don't mean to be disrespectful.
THE COURT:
     - I'm just citing that as a - I mean, there are all sorts of societies
out there, and there are all sorts of groups and organizations.
     But as far as this issue and this request for this statement of
judicial notice, this court again, in its opinion, feels that for all of the
reasons that I cited, not only the prior ruling but also because it is just
not disputable.
MR. HULSY:
     The - I can't offer anything to quarrel - you know - factually, a new
fact on the deciding it anew, other than the facts that have been submitted.
On the collateral estoppel issue, I thought that the - that the case that
was appended from the Lexis was very interesting and it showed the court's
logic; and I thought that it would be useful to go back to the letter of
apology and see that the thrust of that was the emotional distress rather
than any sort of a concession as to the facts.
     And that's why I thought on the collateral estoppel that if the court
was thinking exclusively on that, that it ought not be followed.
THE COURT:
     Interesting, not persuasive.
MR. HULSY:
     All right.
     I submit.



-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


From jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca Thu Aug 31 09:46:01 PDT 1995
Article: 5454 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsjunkie.ans.net!swiss.ans.net!newsgate.watson.ibm.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!gatech!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!torn!news.bc.net!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!news
From: jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Cyanide compounds cannot be leached?
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 1995 05:17:23 GMT
Organization: University of Alberta
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <423go0$sva@rover.ucs.ualberta.ca>
References:  <415dd9$hvu@calvino.alaska.net>  <41nq38$nq9@calvino.alaska.net> <41nvl3$om3@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <422p5c$hp0@calvino.alaska.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: lydgate.remote.ualberta.ca
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Henry Ayre  wrote:


>Rather than all this vain and useless speculation [. . .]

perhaps you would care to explain why there was *any* cyanide traces
in the walls of Krema I; it was supposed to have been a bomb shelter.
Perhaps you would care to explain why there was *any* cyanide traces
in the walls of Kremas II and III; they were supposed to have been
morgues.

And don't say "because there were bugs in the morgues." Don't forget
that the SS had crematory furnaces built that were supposed to handle
4700+ bodies a day; I doubt they had a bug problem in the "morgues."

While we're at it, perhaps you could answer a question that no denier
here seems to be able to answer. Why did the SS arrange for a
crematory capacity that could dispose of the entire camp population
every ten days or so?

But first things first; why are there cyanide races on the walls of a
"bomb shelter?"

--
 John Morris                               
 at University of Alberta     
------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
 The Nizkor Project: An Electronic Holocaust Resource
  File archives - ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca
  Web page - http://nizkor.almanac.bc.ca



From jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca Thu Aug 31 09:46:03 PDT 1995
Article: 5476 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsjunkie.ans.net!howland.reston.ans.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!in1.uu.net!van-bc!vanbc.wimsey.com!news.mindlink.net!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!news
From: jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Yet another personal attack ...
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 1995 07:09:23 GMT
Organization: University of Alberta
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <423na0$1nmk@rover.ucs.ualberta.ca>
References:  <423m14$gm8@rover.ucs.ualberta.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: lydgate.remote.ualberta.ca
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) [that's me!] wrote:

In response to Greg Raven, who said:
>>Sure. We kicked Mel Mermelstein's butt, in our first round of motions, and
>>he voluntarily dropped the rest of his suit against us. I'm rather proud
>>of it. Those wishing more information about this can visit my Web site at:

>>   http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr

>>for more information.

>Or, for more information, check out

>      ftp://ftp.alamanc.bc.ca/pub/people/m/mermelstein.mel

>for a complete text of the judgement held against the IHR and others
>showing how they "kicked Mel Mermelstein's butt." And it only cost
>them $90,000 and a written apology.

Aw, heck. Don't bother. Just read Barry Shein's post in this thread.

--
 John Morris                               
 at University of Alberta     
------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
 The Nizkor Project: An Electronic Holocaust Resource
  File archives - ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca
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From schwartz@infinet.com Thu Aug 31 09:46:04 PDT 1995
Article: 5486 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!natinst.com!news.dell.com!swrinde!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!btnet!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!malgudi.oar.net!infinet!p14.infinet.com!user
From: schwartz@infinet.com (Sara aka Perrrfect)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: My reply to Ken McVay
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 1995 09:14:43 -0400
Organization: Cat's Lair
Lines: 21
Message-ID: 
References:  <422lvm$3th@access5.digex.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: p14.infinet.com

> In article ,
> Greg Raven  wrote:

> Finally, there are many sites that include pointers to my Web materials.
>>It is illogical to assume that I would include reverse links to all of
> them

Wrong, Mr. Raven.
 
I happen to be an Internet Marketing Specialist, and reciprocal links are
THE currency of the Web. It is only logical to assume that one would
reciprocate and "return the favor," so to speak, if another site is linked
to yours.

It's also just common courtesy, but I guess you wouldn't know much about that.
 
Sara

-- 
"No human race is superior; no religious faith is inferior. All collective judgements are wrong. Only racists make them."
     Elie Wiesel


From jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca Thu Aug 31 09:46:05 PDT 1995
Article: 5492 of alt.revisionism
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From: jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Yet another personal attack ...
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 1995 06:47:34 GMT
Organization: University of Alberta
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References: 
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greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) wrote:

>In article <3usqqe$2qe@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, jwccti1@aol.com (JWCCTI1) wrote:

>> Greg Raven, a Jew-hater of major proportions writing on the 
>>     Institute for Historical Revisionism said

>This is an absolutely untrue statement, and you neither have nor could
>have any proof whatsoever to support it. Why are you so interested in
>lying about me?

>> Three years ago, Greg Raven also said ....
>> 
>> 
>> >           Category 15,  Topic 4
>> >            Message 33        Fri Mar 13, 1992
>> >            G.RAVEN                      at 03:02 EST
>> 
>> >  My only concern is in going after the facts. As such, I am not
>> >  interested in defending Adolf Hitler to my dying breath. I will say,
>> >  however, that he was a great man ... certainly greater than
>> >  Churchill and FDR put together, and possibly the greatest leader of
>> >  our century, if not longer. This is not to say that he was perfect,
>> >  but he about the best thing that could have happened to Germany.

>That's right. I don't really care much about Adolf Hitler, dead or alive.
>However, I do care that he as a leader is demonized for actions that are
>no worse and sometimes better than other leaders of the time. Why can't
>Hitler's actions be regarded dispassionately, just as are those of Stalin,
>Churchill, and Roosevelt, three of the blood-thirstiest world leaders
>ever?

Hmm. Hitler was just a regular kind of guy even though his regime was
responsible for the anti-Jewish laws of the 1930s. No better or no
worse, even though his regime passed laws that barred Jews from
schools, from practising law, from serving as judges, from employment
as public servants, that prevented Jewish doctors and dentists from
billing the national health plan, and much much more. In fact over 200
laws and decrees were enacted against Jews in Germany in the 1930s.

But what does the IHR "potent pamphlet" on Greg's web site say about
all this:

     49. What was the main provision of the German "Nuremberg Laws" of
         1935? 
         They forbid marriage and sexual relations between Germans and
         Jews, similar to laws existing in Israel today.
     50. Were there any American precedents for the Nuremberg Laws?
         Years before Hitler's Third Reich, most states in the USA had
         enacted laws prohibiting marriage between persons of
         different races. 

Oh, gee. That's all. Well, I guess those Jews didn't have so much to
complain about when their food rations in the early stages of the war
were always less than those of other Germans and always cut before
those of other Germans.

What complaint does another IHR pamphlet on Greg's web site make about
the Holocaust Memorial Museum? That it is "Judeocentric" and
represents "a sectarian, alien agenda." How odd that a museum
dedicated to the murder of nearly 6 million Jews should be
Judeocentric. How odd that a museum established by American survivors
of the Holocaust should be characterized as "alien."

Yet another IHR pamphlet on Greg's web site asks the question "might
the encampment of the Jews have been justified?" on the grounds that
the Jews had supposedly declared war on Germany. Whatever Chaim
Weizmann might have said as president of the World Jewish Congress,
and in *response* to the "harmless" Nuremburg Laws, ordinary German
citizens of the Jewish faith were in no position to declare war on
anybody, nor did they.

Greg Raven may not have written any of this material, but he is
pleased to occupy an important position in the organization that
publishes it; he is pleased to put it up on his *personal* web page;
and, he was pleased to work in the IHR for years with founder Willis
Carto, a man who once wrote: 

  Who is using who?  Who is calling the shots?  History supplies
  the answer to this.  History tells us plainly who our Enemy is.
  Our Enemy today is the same Enemy of 50 years ago and before - and
  that was  before Communism.  The Communists are "using" the Jews we 
  are told ... who was "using" the Jews fifty years ago - one hundred
  or one thousand years ago.  History supplies the answer.  The Jews
  came first and remain Public Enemy No. 1.

I simply can't imagine why anyone would think that Greg Raven is a
Jew-hater.

[snip]

>> Perhaps we could get Greg to talk about "The Lawsuit" a few years back.

>Sure. We kicked Mel Mermelstein's butt, in our first round of motions, and
>he voluntarily dropped the rest of his suit against us. I'm rather proud
>of it. Those wishing more information about this can visit my Web site at:

>   http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr

>for more information.

Or, for more information, check out

      ftp://ftp.alamanc.bc.ca/pub/people/m/mermelstein.mel

for a complete text of the judgement held against the IHR and others
showing how they "kicked Mel Mermelstein's butt." And it only cost
them $90,000 and a written apology.

Boy, is that a typical "revisionist" citation, or what? I couldn't
find anything on Mermelstein at Greg's "not-really-the-IHR" site
except one reference in the "potent pamphlet" about how no one offered
any proof of gassings. Care to give a file name, or do you expect me
to read every piece of nonsense on your site to find out what you have
to say about how you kicked Mermelstein's butt.

[snip]

>> Hey, Greg, what do you tell all your neighbors at home about the IHR? 
>> More to the point, which of your neighbors knows about your connection to
>> Holocaust revisionism and denial?  

>I'm not embarrassed about my connection with the IHR. In fact, I am proud
>of it. I use my own name and I make public appearances. What more should I
>be doing?

Telling the truth.

--
 John Morris                               
 at University of Alberta     
------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
 The Nizkor Project: An Electronic Holocaust Resource
  File archives - ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca
  Web page - http://nizkor.almanac.bc.ca



From joelr@winternet.com Thu Aug 31 14:17:52 PDT 1995
Article: 5504 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!lerc.nasa.gov!news.larc.nasa.gov!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!in1.uu.net!winternet.com!joelr.ppp!joelr
From: joelr@winternet.com (Joel Rosenberg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: My reply to Ken McVay
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 1995 11:11:28
Organization: StarNet Communications, Inc
Lines: 72
Message-ID: 
References: 
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X-Newsreader: Trumpet for Windows [Version 1.0 Rev A]

In article  greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) writes:
>From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
>Subject: My reply to Ken McVay
>Date: 30 Aug 1995 14:24:51 GMT

>In message <41iq6c$809@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> Ken McVay presents an ³Open
>Letter² to me, Greg Raven, supposedly to urge me to treat him and other
>anti-revisionists as graciously as he and the other anti-revisionists have
>been treating me, that is, by providing links to anti-revisionists¹ Web
>materials from my Web materials.

>In so doing, McVay provides some excellent examples of why I have so far
>refused to so.

>When I first gained Internet access and joined the discussion on
>alt.revisionism, I explicitly stated that I had no desire to exchange
>personal attacks, and that I hoped that we could all stick with the facts.
>The anti-revisionists have consistently refused to do this.

>McVay writes:

>> As President and Chief Executive Officer of the Institute for
>> Historical Review, Mr. Raven, you operate the IHR's WWW
>> site, http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr, as a focalpoint for the
>> dissemination of neo-Nazi Holocaust denial propaganda.

>Just about everything about this paragraph, the first in McVay¹s ³open
>letter,² is inaccurate. To save space, I will deal only with the
>substantive falsehoods.

>First, I am not president and/or CEO of the Institute for Historical
>Review, as the IHR has no president and/or CEO.

>Second, while it is true that I make available some IHR material on the
>World Wide Web, I do so not in my official capacity with the IHR, but
>rather I do it on my own time, and I finance it out of my own monies.

>Third, to the best of my knowledge, there is no ³neo-Nazi² (or Nazi, for
>that matter) or ³Holocaust denial² material among my Web files.

>Thus, although McVay attempts to present himself as being interested in a
>free exchange of positions, this posting clearly shows that he is more
>inclined to personal attacks on revisionists. In his open letter, he even
>includes a URL (Universal Resource Locator -- a form of Internet address)
>for a file that can only be considered a personal attack on me, and
>visitors to his site will find other files personally (and inaccurately)
>attacking me and others.

>(Some may find it interesting that McVay starts off his Web material with
>a quote from Deborah Lipstadt, an anti-revisionist who also
>mischaracterizes revisionists and revisionists¹ positions, and who claims
>that there must be no debate on the Holocaust issue -- she is right and
>the revisionists are wrong, period.)

>McVay is not alone among the anti-revisionists on the Internet in
>pretending to ask for fair treatment while engaging in personal attacks.
>Jamie McCarthy has also attempted to urge me to include a link to his Web
>materials on my Web materials. I have not visited McCarthy¹s Web site in
>some time, but the last time I did, one of the first things I read was a
>misquote of something I wrote, that McCarthy further mischaracterized in
>order to cast aspersions on me.

>Finally, there are many sites that include pointers to my Web materials.
>It is illogical to assume that I would include reverse links to all of
>them

I take it you don't realize how weasely you sound.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Joel Rosenberg       | For news about upcoming books,  | My opinions are mine.
joelr@winternet.com  | finger joelr@winternet.com      | Whose are yours?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                 Home page at http://www.winternet.com/~joelr


From dkeren@world.std.com Thu Aug 31 14:17:54 PDT 1995
Article: 5514 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!in1.uu.net!world!dkeren
From: dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
Subject: Re: Yet another personal attack ...
Message-ID: 
Organization: The World, Public Access Internet, Brookline, MA
References: 
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 1995 16:50:09 GMT
Lines: 15

IHR employee, Greg "Hitler was a great man" Raven, writes:

# Sure. We kicked Mel Mermelstein's butt,

The revisionazis didn't "kick Mel Mermelstein's butt", they had
to pay him $90,000 when their offer to pay up anyone who
proved that Jews were gassed in Auschwitz backfired on them.

Only a revisionazi can interpret losing the trial and paying up
 $90,000 as a victory, I guess... it's something to do with 
their very, very flawed conception of reality.


-Danny Keren.



From dkeren@world.std.com Thu Aug 31 14:17:55 PDT 1995
Article: 5515 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!in2.uu.net!world!dkeren
From: dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
Subject: Re: Yet another personal attack ...
Message-ID: 
Organization: The World, Public Access Internet, Brookline, MA
References:  <423m14$gm8@rover.ucs.ualberta.ca>
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 1995 16:58:11 GMT
Lines: 18

John Morris  wrote:

[Quoting and commenting on the lies published by the IHR]

#  49. What was the main provision of the German "Nuremberg Laws" of
#    1935? 
#      They forbid marriage and sexual relations between Germans and
#      Jews, similar to laws existing in Israel today.

A total and complete fabrication, which proves that revisionazis
lie not only about the past but the present as well...

There are not, and there have never been, any such laws
in Israel. 


-Danny Keren.



From dkeren@world.std.com Thu Aug 31 14:17:56 PDT 1995
Article: 5516 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!in1.uu.net!world!dkeren
From: dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
Subject: Re: Yet another personal attack ...
Message-ID: 
Organization: The World, Public Access Internet, Brookline, MA
References:  <423m14$gm8@rover.ucs.ualberta.ca>
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 1995 17:01:41 GMT
Lines: 8

PS - according to Nazi laws, a Jew who was accused of having sex
with a "pure-blooded German woman" was sentenced to death. I have
some transcripts from a trial in which a Jewish man (Katzenberger)
was tried for this.


-Danny Keren.



From hkatz@earth.usa.net Thu Aug 31 22:50:50 PDT 1995
Article: 5571 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!in2.uu.net!news.usa.net!earth!hkatz
From: hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Yet another personal attack ...
Date: 31 Aug 1995 22:40:25 GMT
Organization: Large
Lines: 26
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NNTP-Posting-Host: earth.usa.net
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In article ,
Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com) writes:

	By the way, one of things for which I think Hitler should be
	given credit is foreseeing the danger of communism, and fighting
	it instead of making communists his ally.

What kind of hallucinogen did Mr. Raven swallow to come up with this
fantasy?

The rest of the conscious world believes that the Stalin-Hitler Pact
turned Stalin and Hitler into allies, and gave the Soviet Union a nice
big piece of Poland in the bargain.

When Hitler finally did turn against Stalin, the Communists ended up
overrunning all of Eastern Europe and half of Germany.  If not for
America, all of Europe would fallen into Communist hands.

This is Hitler's true anti-Communist legacy.

--
Harry Katz

There are some who preach beautifully, but practice not their
beautiful doctrine.
	-- The Wit and Wisdom of the Talmud, Madison C. Peters, ed.


From bzs@world.std.com Thu Aug 31 22:50:51 PDT 1995
Article: 5581 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!in2.uu.net!world!bzs
From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Yet another personal attack ...
In-Reply-To: hkatz@earth.usa.net's message of 31 Aug 1995 22:40:25 GMT
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References:  <425dop$4st@shiva.usa.net>
Distribution: World
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 1995 00:57:41 GMT
Lines: 68


Of course, Harry, of course (note appended below.)

But a major cornerstone in the holocaust denier orthodoxy is that the
Nazis were *really* just opposing Soviet communism so maybe there's
something good to be said for them.

Unfortunately a lot of that claim really relies on the behavior of
post-WWII Stalin which is when the Soviet Union really shows any great
expansionist efforts.

But for Raven to use imagery from post-WWII Soviet expansionism to
rationalize Hitler's behavior is quite incredible. Sure, Hitler did
not want Marxism to get a toe-hold in his country, but that was mostly
a concern with GERMAN marxism, not the Soviets coming across the
borders (or at least I've never seen that point argued.)

And how exactly Hitler's invading France and declaring war on the US
and bombing the British Isles relentlessly was going to hold back the
Soviets is just beyond me. A rather odd way to keep the Soviets out of
your backyard, unless perhaps you're an insane megalomaniac...

Obviously Raven tips his hand with this and goes beyond mere
"questioning" of certain facts about the holocaust (not that this is
what he does, he's simply a cynical propagandist) and well into a
platform for the complete rehabilitation of Nazism.

Well, certainly Hitler was no great fan of Soviet Bolshevism, no
argument on that.

But as you say he managed to hold his nose long enough to sign a pact
with Stalin dividing up Poland. And then Hitler pretty much started
WWII by betraying that pact and just invaded Poland for himself.

And given what Hitler and his Nazis wrought, sixty million people
dead, around ten million brutally murdered in concentration camps,
invasion of much of Europe and North Africa, a pact with the Japanese
against the US, declaring war on the US, the incredible destruction of
most of Europe...

What's the expression? ``With friends like that who needs enemies?''


From: hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz)
>Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com) writes:
>
>	By the way, one of things for which I think Hitler should be
>	given credit is foreseeing the danger of communism, and fighting
>	it instead of making communists his ally.
>
>What kind of hallucinogen did Mr. Raven swallow to come up with this
>fantasy?
>
>The rest of the conscious world believes that the Stalin-Hitler Pact
>turned Stalin and Hitler into allies, and gave the Soviet Union a nice
>big piece of Poland in the bargain.
>
>When Hitler finally did turn against Stalin, the Communists ended up
>overrunning all of Eastern Europe and half of Germany.  If not for
>America, all of Europe would fallen into Communist hands.
>
>This is Hitler's true anti-Communist legacy.

-- 
        -Barry Shein

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