Shofar FTP Archive File: people/r/raven.greg/1992/genie-topic4.9203
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Topic 4 Thu Mar 12, 1992
G.RAVEN at 02:46 EST
Sub: Holocaust: what are the facts?
A place to discuss claims that the Holocaust didn't happen. This is a
provocative topic, so please be certain that your messages don't violate GEnie
policies against personal attack.
935 message(s) total.
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Category 15, Topic 4
Message 1 Thu Mar 12, 1992
G.RAVEN at 02:50 EST
For those of you who are unaware of the current state of the Holohoax
controversy, you have a real treat in store. There is a LOT of new
work in this field, and if I can only figure out how to use
this @#$% system, I will be bringing it all to you. Feel free to as
any questions, but try to be civil and try to stay on the topic.
See you around!
Greg Raven
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Message 2 Thu Mar 12, 1992
RTRAYNOR [Bevan] at 04:13 EST
I will be quite civil, and shall stay rigidly on the topic.
People who believe that the Holocaust was a hoax are either insane
or liars. The documentation that it existed was immense and
incontrovertable. So many people live for whom it was living memory.
Do you honestly think, perchance, that so many Jews bothered to tattoo
their arms, in such similar ways, and that it is all a ruse? My wife's
uncle was part of Patton's army, that liberated several concentration
camps - do you honestly think that the government went to the trouble
of arranging Hollywood-like sets in advance, for the bamboozlement of
all those soldiers, in a war zone yet? Or that those soldiers were
hypnotized or deluded? My uncle-in-law is the finest, most honest and
honorable man it has been my privilege to meet, and the revulsion and
horror of the things he saw were still vivid, nearly fifty years agone.
It may serve some dark, twisted purpose for the naysayers to deny
that a Holocaust never happened. I can't quite believe it to be due to
anti-Semitism - hatred of a race strong enough to commit oneself to
such a horrific denial is an evil fantasy that Lovecraft would have
shuddered to contemplate. What motives there could really be I can't
even begin to imagine.
Such insane ravings of a 'Holohoax' should be treated with the
contempt they deserve. Only a perverted jackal would dare invent such
a bizarre creed, and as for those who perpetuate it... well, I supposed
I promised I'd be civil.
Hoping against hope that this topic is merely (!) a sick joke,
Bevan
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Message 3 Thu Mar 12, 1992
M.RUNGU at 04:45 EST
Began,
Mr. Raven didn't say anything like what you're alluding to in your text. Why
are you so upset? If he's got something to say, let's hear what it is; I
don't see any reason to just leap for his throat just because the guy wants to
talk about the holocaust, or to call him a "perverted jackal" (if that's
"civil", I'd hate to see what you "uncivil" would be like).
I for one don't know much about the subject, but would like to learn more
about it, and if there is more than one side to it, I am all for hearing the
pros and cons.
Please, let's be kinder and gentler. This is America, after all.
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Message 4 Thu Mar 12, 1992
RTRAYNOR [Bevan] at 07:48 EST
Mr.Rungu:
You will note that nowhere in my letter do I refer to Mr.Raven by
name. However, I think the topic header speaks for itself. When one
sees terms like '""Gas chambers," the hoax of the century" and
"Holohoax," that tends to define where the writer is coming from.
Does he have something to say on this subject? He will, no doubt,
let us know. In the meantime, *I* had something to say, and I exercised
my right to say it. There is no reason whatsoever why one has to wait
one's turn, so to speak.
In the meantime, I fully reject this issue as any subject about which
to be kind or gentle, or about which there are 'pros' or 'cons.' If
Mr. Raven had expressed his heartfelt belief that the world was flat,
I might have smiled, shaken my head, typed 'What a silly thing,' PER'd
the topic, and moved on. But to degrade the anguish and murder of
millions of Jews and other races, of which victims many yet live to tell
their tales, is one of the most sickening and perverted creeds of this
era. I utterly reject the notion that this can be taken lightly. I could
with far more equanimity accepted a declaration that Mr. Raven was a
Klansman or an active Nazi.
I've avoided attacking him personally because there are unanswered
questions. Is Raven, perchance, actually intending to mock the hoax
viewpoint? In which I've not insulted him at all. Is he playing a joke on
us? In which case his taste in humor is lousy, but that's not a capital
offense.
But does he really mean what his topic and first post imply? If so,
I daresay a lot of us will have more to say, and be damned to the rules.
You may think that this is a subject fit for debate, Mr. Mungu, about
which there is reasonable doubt. If so, I will forthwith open a debate
about the propriety of taking assault rifles into the inner cities, and
gunning down lower-income residents as a means of civic improvement - -
and I will expect the subject to be treated as a valid issue, to be
debated as a potential positive civic good. There is exactly as much
merit to that argument as to the damned "Holohoax," sir.
Yr obt svt,
= = *> Bevan >* = =
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Message 5 Thu Mar 12, 1992
R.EATON3 at 10:06 EST
Bevan and M.RUNGU,
The truth is that Mr. Raven is a very POLISHED Holocaust denier. He does
not care what you think or what you have to say. He is looking for a forum to
post these ideas and the more upset others get will only serve him better.
In truth, your wife's uncle saw camps in Germany, ones that did not have
gas chambers. The bulk of the extermination process was carried out in Poland
in 6 camps. The majority of these were destroyed either by the Nazis
themselves or in uprisings by the prisoners.
Mr Raven would like nothing better than for us to talk about survivors and
camps that were not part of the extermination process. His motivation is deny
only the theory of gas chambers and and the
more "grist for the mill" we give him, the more he will capitalize
on it.
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Message 6 Thu Mar 12, 1992
M.FEINS at 18:15 EST
-=-=-=- To: M.RUNGU -=-=-=-
Began,
> I for one don't know much about the subject, but would like to
> learn more about it, and if there is more than one side to it,
> I am all for hearing the pros and cons.
> Please, let's be kinder and gentler. This is America, after
> all.
Please explain. Are you, for the moment suggesting that possibility, even the
very remotest possibility, that the Holocaust was a HOAX?
YOU need to be convinced one way or another? Do think this topic is trying
for the truth? You are incredible if that is what you think.
I can assure you, this topic, if continued will assure *you* that this is not
a kinder and gentler America. You shall find out.
The RAVEN calls this topic the HOLOHOAX. Is that information, or an attack. Do
you NOT understand the title and purpose.
I cannot believe such naivete.
I would not even argue it for a second. The amount of films,I have available
to show you or anyone, movies taken as GI's were entering the camps and the
human wrecks visible, piles of bodies like cordwood
will make you retch. The documents available are mountainous. Living right
within two blocks of my home are a number of families with tatoos on their
arms, stories to tell that would shake you to your very foundation, THEY are
all a hoax?? Would like to speak to them???
Suggest you go immedietly to the nearest library and start looking at
documenting books etc. Then come back here and ask the same question.
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Message 7 Thu Mar 12, 1992
POOH.BAH at 18:57 EST
Webster's New World Dictionary (Second Edition) defines the Holocaust as: "the
systematic destruction of over six million European Jews by the Nazis before
and during WWII."
I should probably add there were were over 5 million non-Jews who were
destroyed using the same methods by the Nazis during the same time period.
This latter group includes homosexuals, Communists, Gypsies, Jehovah's
Witnesses, etc.
Now, Mr. Raven wishes to deny the above. Does this mean that there are "two
sides?" No more so than to say that there are "two sides" to whether Elvis is
or is not dead.
How do we know the facts behind the Holocaust? Yes, there are survivors,
liberators and perpetrators who have testified at trials but that is NOT how
we know what happened. Yes, there are photographs of certain camps but that is
NOT how we know what happened. We know because there were literally TONS
(according in one of the Holocaust Denier authors there were 1,100 TONS!) of
Nazi documents captured by the Allies.
Among these documents we have an order, signed by Adolph Hitler, which started
the euthanasia program....resulting in the deaths of 70,000 Germans. Imagine
seeing that signature. It is chilling. Almost as much so as seeing Josef
Mengele's signature for the receipt of the head of a 12 year old boy. Better
yet, listen to the Himmler's Posen speech....which was recorded as it was
given! We have that recording and you can clearly hear Himmler, the head of
the SS, explain what had and was going to become of the Jews.
All of the above is located at the National Archives in Washington, DC. Yet
even this is not the only collection. There is also the Bundesarchiv in
Koblenz and the archives at Riga which have recently become accessible to
Western scholars. And, of course, there are the archives at Yad Vashem in
Jerusalem.
If all of this is true then who can deny the Holocaust? It is good to ask that
question. When you take the time to explore their credentials you find them
peculiarly lacking. When you take the time to read their books, you find them
lacking any sense or logic. In fact, one of their authors (the same one who
stated that there were 1,100 TONS of captured documents) has invented a new
logical fallacy - guilt by POSSIBLE association! One of the theories of this
author is that X _might_ have had contact with _Y_ who _probably_ knew Z,
therefore Z helped plan a conspiracy that was transmitted to X through Y. It
doesn't matter a whit that there is no evidence that any of these people knew
each other!
Mr. Raven: Do you really want to discuss the Holocaust coming from the
position of denying its reality?
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Message 8 Thu Mar 12, 1992
RTRAYNOR at 19:13 EST
Leaving aside the hundreds of hours of footage shot at the death
camps, made under battlefield conditions in an era that lacked Industrial
Light and Magic to do up boffo special effects.
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Message 9 Thu Mar 12, 1992
POOH.BAH at 19:48 EST
8 RTRAYNOR: When you say "death camps," are you referring to the extermination
camps which had gas chambers? If so, you should know that we have no footage
from any of those camps. If, OTOH, you are referring to any camp as a "death
camp" because of the high mortality rates, then you are correct.
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Message 11 Thu Mar 12, 1992
GSCOTT-MOORE [Gerry] at 21:51 EST
\\\---
Even for the most virulent and morally-corrupt of anti-semites, why is it is
important to deny the holocaust? Of all the twisted approaches why do some
latch on to denying it? Why not exult in it? I just can't fathom.
\\\--- Gerry
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Message 12 Thu Mar 12, 1992
POOH.BAH at 22:35 EST
Gerry: The answer as to why some anti-Semites might want to deny the Holocaust
can be understood by the term used in message 1: "Holohoax." IOW, the denial
of the Holocaust is not merely a misunderstanding of documents, etc. but an
intentional fraud perpetrated upon the world (according the Holocaust Deniers,
that is) and, if you accept that idea, the question arises as to whom
perpetrated this fraud. Of course, the Holocaust Deniers are ready with the
answer (which you can probably guess).
This whole movement depends upon instilling doubt in the uninformed and then
shifting that doubt to actual anger at those who are responsible for the
"hoax." Therein they fuel the fires of bigotry.
BTW, Hitler had this strange paradox in his worldview that the Jews were
inferior and "sub-human" and yet, the Jews controlled the world and dominated
the superior non-Jews. Some of the Holocaust Deniers employ a similar paradox:
they view Hitler and his cronies as great men because of the above stated
worldview but, at the same time, they deny that Hitler and his cronies took
any action on that world view.
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Message 14 Fri Mar 13, 1992
RTRAYNOR at 00:02 EST
Well then, Eric, I daresay we can do the "gent" a favor and give him
his fill. There are undoubtedly synagogues in his area in which he'd like
to speak, if he likes causing a ruckus. No doubt he would receive a
prompt and well-deserved attitude adjustment.
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Message 15 Fri Mar 13, 1992
M.RUNGU at 00:07 EST
I can see a lot of people are upset; but I didn't see anywhere in Mr. Raven's
message a denial of the holocaust, he merely stated that "a lot of work has
been done in this area" or something to that effect. His use of the term
"holohoax" may have been facetious.
Anyway, I think all the insults directed against him are naughty and
unnecessary. Let's hear what he has to say, and THEN everybody can take his
points one by one and comment (without insulting him I hope), and maybe ask
him questions. I hope all the abuse that was IMMEDIATELY thrown at him hasn't
scared him away.
And even if he IS planning to deny the holocaust, then perhaps we can all
agree that he has a right to do that denying, or confirming, or whatever he
wants to do/say, including on a discussion area like this forum, in the same
way that everybody else has a right to take a different position. Personally,
I am very tolerant of ALL views and hate it when somebody expressing an
unpopular viewpoint gets shouted down, attacked, or vilified. This is still a
free country. Let's not have any intellectual bigotry, pleeeeeeeeeeese...
Mr. Raven, you still out there? Speak your piece now.
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Message 16 Fri Mar 13, 1992
J.WEILER4 at 00:15 EST
Let me tell you, when I did a "check" for new messages and saw the title of
this new topic, my stomach turned. I couldn't believe that after all that's
been said, recorded and catalogued, that there is still those who deny the
Holocaust. As a human being and a Jew, I felt my blood boil before I read even
the first message. However, after reading the first 12 messages, and seeing
that there are so many others who feel the same immediate and intense anger
>not directed at the person who started the topic per se, but at the issue>, I
am heartened because it is just such a reaction that will prevent the
Holocaust from happening again. I am relieved as a Jew. I am relieved as a
human being.
I am interested as to what proof the originator of this topic has that the
Holocaust is a hoax....and how long it will take for at least 15 people here
to categorically refute every word.
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Message 17 Fri Mar 13, 1992
P.BOBBITT at 00:28 EST
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> TO: All >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
It's a shame that "Freedom of Speech" also permits freedom of stupidity.
The Holocaust happened. Fact. Final.
In Canada, we recently had someone sent to jail for spreading lies like this,
along with hate propaganda against Jewish people. I'm glad our country has no
qualms against stopping hate literature published in the name of freedom of
speech.
America should learn that it's amendments aren't black and white. There is
room for the shades of grey necessary to prosecute hate mongers and to keep
its citizens safe from hatred and oppression, whether physical, or in print.
>>>>>>>>> Paul >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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Message 18 Fri Mar 13, 1992
G.RAVEN at 00:31 EST
First, thank you everyone for participating. It has taken me days to
get to the point where I can limp along on this system, which
seems quite odd. I will only be visiting every other day
or two, so please be patient ... I will try to answer
all your questions as best I can. If you feel I have overlooked
your question, PLEASE repost it. Thanks!*H
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Message 19 Fri Mar 13, 1992
G.RAVEN at 00:35 EST
To RTraynor, I am neither insane nor a liar ... the opposite, in fact. As to
the points you raised, raise, applying tatoos is not the same as murdering
someone. Also, the Allies did not liberate the Eastern camps, where the
atrocities are all supposed to have taken place. As nice a man as he may be,
your uncle is wrong about what he thou thought he saw. Finally, at least you
are as wrong about me and my motives as you are about the Holohoax. Can you
produce facts instead of slander and invective, or are you working at the
peak of your form?
(wow, I really am learning to hate this editor).
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Message 20 Fri Mar 13, 1992
G.RAVEN at 00:36 EST
To M.Feins, The Holocaust IS a hoax, and not only for one moment but for
nearly 50 years now. And not merely possibility, but fact. No gas chambers!
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Message 21 Fri Mar 13, 1992
G.RAVEN at 00:37 EST
oTo Pooh.bah, Webster's may be able to define the word, but they cannot prove
that any of the allegations ever occurred. I trust to appreciate the
difference.
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Message 22 Fri Mar 13, 1992
G.RAVEN at 00:39 EST
To Pooh.bah (continued ...) None of the documents you mention prove there was
a Holocaust, and the Pos Posen speech, of which we do not have an authentic
text, does not say what you say it does. By the way, no matter how many tons
of documents stolen from the Germans by the Allies, there is no proof anywhere
in it. If there was, it would have been presented to us before now. Anyone who
tells you otherwise is lying to you.
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Message 23 Fri Mar 13, 1992
G.RAVEN at 00:40 EST
to M.Andrews11, Happy to oblige you. They are lying. All of them. And don't
worry. I have plenty to say about this topic, and I'll be back!
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Message 24 Fri Mar 13, 1992
G.RAVEN at 00:42 EST
To Gscott- (GSCOTT-MOORE, that is). It is important to study the Holocaust
myth because is the most powerful weapon in the arsenal of the Zionists, who
take every opportunity to use it against us, the Palestinians, etc. If it is a
hoax, which it is, then most of the "moral underpinning" of the illegal and
immoral state of Israel vanishes, and we can finally hope for peace in the
Middle East.
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Message 25 Fri Mar 13, 1992
G.RAVEN at 00:42 EST
To Eric-M ... You lose.
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Message 26 Fri Mar 13, 1992
G.RAVEN at 00:46 EST
To J.Weiler4, I hope this doesn't burst your bubble, but it will be
impossible for anyone else on this topic to disprove what I have to say. And
it doesn't matter to me that the exterminationists outnumber me many times
over. I have the truth on my side, and that's enough. I invite you to stay
with the discussion, though, as you will discover that you have been used by
the exterminationists just as the rest of us have.
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Message 27 Fri Mar 13, 1992
G.RAVEN at 00:49 EST
To P.Bobitt, If you are referring to Ernst Zuendel, a man who I consider to
be a friend and for whom I would go out of my way to help, you are wrong.
Although the repressive state of Canada does prosecute thought crimes,
Zuendel is not in jail. There may be others not as fortunate, but you and your
fellow Canadians are going to have to realize sooner or later that you can't
lock people up for disagreeing with you. The issue is bigger than Zuendel,
Ross, Keegstra, etc. This is a truth that will not be denied. Hope you don't
ever need to exercise YOUR rights up there in the frozen North! You might find
out you have none.
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Message 28 Fri Mar 13, 1992
EIREANNACH at 01:02 EST
Is there a possibility that if we ignore this insanity that it'll go away? I
see nothing to be gained by feeding this ridiculous topic.
Liam |-}-
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Message 29 Fri Mar 13, 1992
POOH.BAH at 01:06 EST
22 G.Raven: You claim that anyone who has told me that there are documents
which prove the Holocaust is lying. Well, sir, you are then calling ME the
liar.
Let's discuss how the documents were acquired in the first place. You say that
they were "stolen." Not so. Yes, they were captured. However, the documents
which were captured by the U.S. have been microfilmed and those films are on
file at the National Archives in Washington, D.C. Where are the originals? In
the Bundesarchivs in Koblenz...in Germany. As a matter of fact, Robert Wolfe
who is the director of the Captured German Records at the National Archives
has even been awarded a medal by the Germans for his work in cataloging,
preserving and returning the documents. So, your claim that documents have
been "stolen" is not based in fact.
Now, you have also stated that we don't have a text of Himmler's Posen
speeches (after all, you are aware that there were more than one, aren't
you?). This is also not based in fact. Himmler spoke from notes. These notes
were handwritten by Himmler. His speeches were recorded and the text was
transcribed from the recordings. Once the transcription was completed, Himmler
reviewed it and added/subtracted from the speech to give it more polish in
written form. What remains from this process? We have the handwritten notes,
the recordings and the transcriptions (both before and after Himmler's
corrections). I am not basing this on anyone else's observations or reports. I
have heard the recording (which is much more than Staeglich has done), seen
the handwritten notes (not copies but the actual notes), seen the
transcriptions, etc. These are the actual documents....not on microfilm and
not copies. Staeglich has worked from secondary sources in that he has seen
copies and drawn certain conclusions from those copies. You, apparently, are
basing your conclusions on his work. I would suggest that before you continue
along this line that you take a little trip to the National Archives and
research it for yourself. Or, you might talk to Mark Weber about it since he,
too, has done some of his research at the National Archives and has even
written Mr. Wolfe a letter commending him on his unbiased help.
Now, what about other proof besides the Himmler speeches. It does exist. In
fact, I will post a translation of one such document in the next message. You
claim that this information would have surfaced before now if it existed. It
has surfaced before now but one only knows of its existence if one reads
historical accounts of the Holocaust....and preferably accounts based upon
primary sources.
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Message 30 Fri Mar 13, 1992
POOH.BAH at 01:25 EST
As promised in my last message, here is the type of primary documents that are
available which prove that the Holocaust is fact. This particular document is
a report from an official inspection mission to Auschwitz-Birkenau. The
inspection trip took place May 14-16, 1943 and was performed by von Herff and
Franke-Grischke. The latter man (being the junior member of the team) wrote
the report with one copy to von Herff (his direct boss) and the other copy to
Himmler. What follows is that report in translation:
RESETTLEMENT OF JEWS
The Auschwitz camp plays a special role in the resolution of the Jewish
question. The most advance methods permit the execution of the Fuehrer-order
in the shortest possible time and without arousing much attention. The so-
called "resettlement action" runs the following course: The Jews arrive in
special trains (freight cars) toward evening and are driven on special tracks
to areas of the camp specifically set aside for this purpose. There the Jews
are unloaded and examined for their fitness to work by a team of doctors, in
the presence of the camp commandant and several SS officers. At this point
anyone who can somehow be incorporated into the work program is put in a
special camp. The curably ill are sent straight to a medical camp and are
restored to health through a special diet. The basic principle behind
everything is: conserve all manpower for work. The previous type of
"resettlement action" has been thoroughly rejected, since it is too costly to
destroy precious work energy on a continual basis.
The unfit go to celars in a large house which are entered from outside. They
go down five or six steps into a fairly long, well-constructed and well-
ventilated cellar area, which is lined with benches to the left and right. It
is brightly lit, and the benches are numbered. The prisoners are told that
they are to be cleansed and disinfected for their new assignments. They must
therefore completely undress to be bathed. To avoid panic and to prevent
disturbances of any kind, they are instructed to arrange their clothing neatly
under their respective numbers, so that they will be able to find their things
again after their bath. Everything proceeds in a perfectly orderly fashion.
Then they pass through a small corridor and enter a large cellar room which
resembles a shower bath. In this room are three large pillars, into which
certain materials can be lowered from outside the cellar room. When three- to
four-hundred people have been herded into this room, the doors are shut, and
containers filled with the substances are dropped down into the pillars. A few
minutes later, the door opens on the other side, where the elevator is
located. The hair of the corpses is cut off, and their teeth are extracted
(gold-filled teeth) by specialists (Jews). Then the corpses are loaded into
elevators and brought up to the first floor, where ten large crematoria are
located. (Because fresh corpses burn particularly well, only 50-100 lbs. of
coke are needed for the whole process.) The job itself is performed by Jewish
prisoners, who never step outside this camp again.
The results of this "resettlement action" to date: 500,000 Jews. Current
capacity of the "resettlement action" ovens: 10,000 in twenty-four hours.
----------------------------------
The above document has been translated as is. Nothing has been added to it.
All comments in () appear in the original document...also in ().
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Message 31 Fri Mar 13, 1992
POOH.BAH at 02:10 EST
Gerry: Please read Mr. Raven's note to you (#24) very carefully. Your full
answer is contained therein but I really didn't expect Mr. Raven to be so
forthright this early in the topic. He refers to the "illegal and immoral
state of Israel" and suggests that if the Holocaust is a hoax that there would
be peace in the Middle East. In his opinion, the Holocaust is the only things
which gives legitimacy to the state of Israel. We are left to infer exactly
how he expects peace in the Middle East to be achieved if enough people doubt
the Holocaust.
Apparently, Mr. Raven is not well versed in recent history. Apparently, he
believes that Iraq's invasion of Kuwait had something to do with Israel. After
all, his suggestion that there would be peace in the Middle East without the
"illegal and immoral" state of Israel also means that without Israel, Iraq
wouldn't have started Desert Storm. Hmmmm.....
So far all we have from Mr. Raven is his calling people who state facts about
the Holocaust liars and his insistence that the Holocaust did not occur.
Perhaps he believes that this is somehow convincing. I'm sure that the rest of
us do not agree. His main claim (in the TOPic description and various
messages) is that there were no gas chambers. On what does he base this?
He has not stated it but, based upon my research of Holocaust Denial, I can
venture an educated guess. He bases this on something called "The Leuchter
Report" which was prepared by Fred Leuchter.
For those of you who do not know Fred Leuchter, let me list some of his
credentials. He received a BA in history. With no other education, he decided
that he was an "engineer" and passed himself off as such. Before this was
noticed by the state in which he practiced (MA), he was asked to be an expert
witness at the Zundel trial in Toronto. In fact, he was paid $35,000 for his
"research" and testimony....which is quite an incentive to arrive at the
desired conclusion. There was one slight problem with all of this....he was
unable to qualify as an "expert witness" and the report for which Zundel had
paid dearly was unable to be entered into evidence. Also, Leuchter was
criminally charged in MA for practicing engineering without a license and
finally settled out of court. As part of the settlement, Leuchter admitted
publicly that he was not and had never been a registered engineer.
This, then, is the quality of "expertise" that the Holocaust Deniers employ -
a man who has been discredited in TWO countries....and even committed perjury
in one of them (by claiming that he consulted at two institutions which have
disavowed such contact with him).
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Message 33 Fri Mar 13, 1992
G.RAVEN at 03:02 EST
Upon rereading the messages left in the wake of my starting this topic, I
decided to attempt to answer some of the questions raised in a bit more
detail. At this point I should mention that I have not mastered GEnie yet,
and so if you do have questions, please break them into "bite size" pieces so
I can do them justice. For example, try not to ask a question about photos
and documents and war crimes trials and confessions all at once. I'm not
going anywhere. We have plenty of time. Take a deep breath and fire away. ---
If you wish to know a little more about me, my name is Greg Raven and I live
in Santa Monica, CA. I am quite serious in doubting the Holocaust. I do not
seek fame, fortune, or scandal, but neither do I shirk my responsibility to
replace lies with the truth actively and on an ongoing basis. I have been
studying the Holocaust for just over 10 years. I don't hate anyone, and
don't care to. --- To R.EATON3, who claims I am "a very polished Holocaust
denier," thank you. I will admit to having studied this topic quite a bit,
but I didn't realize I had reached the level of being polished. As for my
alleged wish to talk only about the "camps that were not part of the
extermination process," you must realize that from my studies, NONE of the
camps were part of the extermination process. However, I welcome your
additions, and thank you for helping to steer the conversation away from
places such as Dachau, where no extermination took place, although some
uncomplicated people still hold that they did. --- POOH.BAH reminds us that 6
million Jews and 5 million non-Jews are supposed to have been slaughtered by
the Nazis. Does anyone have any idea what a massive undertaking that is?
Given the fact that it supposedly took place in roughly three years' time,
any reasonable person would doubt the veracity of what they had been told.
Unfortunately, most people have been educated into ignorance. --- For those
who ask what I mean when I say I doubt the Holocaust myth, I will say that in
my study of both exterminationist and revisionist sources, I have found NO
documents, NO photos, NO confessions, NO trial transcripts, NO forensic
evidence, and NO eyewitness testimony that comes even close to proving there
was such a thing as a Holocaust. Those who wish to disagree should produce
one or more of the above so we can discuss it. It should be obvious that I
cannot produce any of the above because by definition, I claim it does not
exist. By the way, any undertaking of this size would leave behind such a
trail of evidence that no one would be able to deny it. The fact that there
is NO evidence to support the Holocaust myth is Another Big Clue. --- I have
no desire to get into any discussion about whether Jews are superior or
inferior to Gentiles, Arabs, etc. My only concern is in going after the
facts. As such, I am not interested in defending Adolf Hitler to my dying
breath. I will say, however, that he was a great man ... certainly greater
than Churchill and FDR put together, and possibly the greatest leader of our
century, if not longer. This is not to say that he was perfect, but he about
the best thing that could have happened to Germany. --- If anyone would like
to receive some information about the Holohoax from my perspective, I have a
limited quantity of pamphlets that I would be happy to mail to you. This way,
we will both know where I am coming from, and you can either skip the small
talk or attack me anew ... your choice. Simply leave me an address. I will
not put you on a mailing list. This is a one-time deal. Fair?
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 34 Fri Mar 13, 1992
RTRAYNOR at 03:24 EST
Dear me.
We are obviously debating a man who is certainly not sane, although he
is superficially rational. If it can be called "debate," of course; when
someone airily dismissed a tremendous mass of evidence as nonexistant,
he isn't debating, he's reciting his memorized catechism.
I could rebut his perverse un-logic point by point, as Pooh-bah has so
ably begun to do. But to what end? Arguing with fanatical lunatics serves
no useful purpose.
I certainly wish to receive no pamphlets or any other such "info.
If I want swamp muck, there is a marsh within my municipality's city
limits, and I can dredge it by the bucketful. Mr. Raven demands that we
provide him facts, but produces none of his own, beyond his dismissals.
IGN PER, of a certainty.
Yr obt svt,
= = *> Bevan >* = =
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 35 Fri Mar 13, 1992
POOH.BAH at 03:32 EST
Ah, Mr. Raven, you ask for us to post any of "the above" (i.e. documents,
photos, etc.) which prove the Holocaust. Yet you leave me wondering since I
spent a little time and effort typing the report: RESETTLEMENT OF JEWS and you
don't even bother to comment on it. This leaves one wondering if you are
sincere in your claim that if we post such evidence that you will address it.
How about the Einsatzgruppen reports? For instance, from report #173 we
discover that one of the five reasons listed for the executions reported in
that report was "belonging to the Jewish race." That seems to give real good
evidence that Jews were being executed just for being Jews, don't you think?
Since you wish to tackle this in "bite-size" pieces, let's just confine
ourselves to answering that single question: Were Jews executed/exterminated
just for being Jewish? (I promise that we can address the gas chambers and
numbers in the future.)
To answer this question I will confine myself to official Nazi documents. I
will be using the Einsatzgruppen Reports, reports and forms from the
euthanasia program and other documents such as the order sent from the
Fuehrer's office to Rommel ordering the execution of any captured Jewish
POW's. (BTW, Rommel did not comply with that order.) I will also use the
Himmler speeches (so you won't be totally in the dark and can use Staeglich to
the best of your ability). I do caution you, though, that you shouldn't depend
upon Lenski's book in which he reports on Mark Weber's testimony on the
Einsatzgruppen Reports in the Zundel trial.
Are you REALLY sure that you want this to continue? If so, pick any of the
documents that I've listed above so that I can keep this in "bite-size" pieces
for you. After all, I would hate for you to claim that I took advantage of
your lack of knowledge of the system.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 36 Fri Mar 13, 1992
C.TAGGART at 03:44 EST
G.RAVEN --
Amongst the myriad posts you have made in this topic, coated with anti-Semitic
and Nazi-apologist slime as they are, you yourself have not offered any PROOF
that your foul allegations have any truth or merit whatsoever.
After being presented with lists of documented evidence, you merely gainsay it
by saying that IT is not proof.
Your mere contradiction of the facts cannot disprove the existence of the
Holocaust.
Just where do you claim that those 11,000,000 people WENT?
It's a good thing that you didn't spread these lies in the presence of my
friend Harry, who lost all four of his grandparents and many other relatives
in the Holocaust. He'd have peeled you like a banana.
Go soak your head, Raven. Maybe you'll find the experience helpful.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 37 Fri Mar 13, 1992
C.TAGGART at 05:39 EST
>>"I am not interested in defending Adolf Hitler to my dying
breath. I will say, however, that he was a great man ...
certainly greater than Churchill and FDR put together, and
possibly the greatest leader of our century, if not longer.
This is not to say that he was perfect, but he about the
best thing that could have happened to Germany." -- G.RAVEN
Good God almighty, there's one on every BBS, isn't there?
The only thing "great" about Hitler is that he was perhaps the greatest
murderer of the twentieth Century.
Your belief that he is "great" certainly tells us all we need to know about
you, Raven.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 38 Fri Mar 13, 1992
EIREANNACH at 10:30 EST
Good idea, Bevan
Liam |-}-
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 39 Fri Mar 13, 1992
C.GLASSNER at 10:37 EST
Well, I was lurking here until I had a chance to see just where Mr. Raven
was coming from. Now I've seen --
IGN PER
(I've got better things to do - if others want to fuel his warped views....
more power to ya, but I really can't stomach this.)
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 40 Fri Mar 13, 1992
GRAFFITI at 14:04 EST
This topic pushes a lot of peoples' "hot buttons" and promises to get very
heated.... I would ask that everyone please observe PF*NPC policy against
personal attacks. Don't let someone incite =you= to violate that policy and
thereby endager =your= posting priviledges in the forum. If you feel you have
been attacked, DON'T RESPOND IN KIND -- you will be just as much in violation
as your attacker. Instead, forward a copy of the message (or at the very
least, the Category/Topic/Message numbers) to the PF$ email address, and we
will review and delete any objectionable messages.
Thanks for your cooperation.
-Ric/PF*NPC sysop
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 42 Fri Mar 13, 1992
ERIC-M at 18:24 EST
>>> P.BOBBITT
> America should learn that it's amendments aren't black and white. There
> is room for the shades of grey necessary to prosecute hate mongers and
> to keep its citizens safe from hatred and oppression, whether physical,
> or in print.
I was taught that a democracy was one in which the majority ruled but the
rights of the minority were preserved.
GEnie may not necessarily want this topic here, and that's fine. This service
is private. I see nothing that would indicate why somebody who expresses
doubt that the Holocast occured should be tarred and feathered, though.
I believe that people who deny the Holocast have a hidden agenda. They do not
really believe that the Holocast never existed. Rather, they are trying to
spread misinformation.
But I see no reason to gag them. There are instances in which government HAS
taught history in a slanted view. Look at the Confederacy and the southern
states. For a while after the Civil War, their history books were quite
different from the North's. They may have even been more accurate about some
events. I don't believe that advocates of the "Holohoax" are more accurate
about anything, though...but that is just my opinion. They are entitled to
theirs as well.
/
|/ ric
|/
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 43 Fri Mar 13, 1992
ERIC-M at 18:25 EST
>>> G.RAVEN
> It is important to study the Holocaust myth because is the most
> powerful weapon in the arsenal of the Zionists, who take every
> opportunity to use it against us, the Palestinians, etc.
The words "hidden agenda" and "biased" pop immediately to mind. While you
decry others' suggesting that you yourself have an agenda, you then say--
without any proof--that those who believe the Holocast happened are biased
themselves. Can you say "hypocrite"?
> If it is a hoax, which it is, then most of the "moral underpinning" of
> the illegal and immoral state of Israel vanishes, and we can finally
> hope for peace in the Middle East.
I don't understand. First, how is Israel's existence illegal and immoral? If
the Holocast never existed, what does this have to do with current events?
Even if you can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Holocast did not
exist (which is impossible since you cannot prove a negative), I fail to see
what consequence that would have on the current state of Israel. Israel ain't
going anyplace, anytime soon. If they do, I think they're going to take the
rest of the Middle East with them. :-)
/
|/ ric
|/
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 44 Fri Mar 13, 1992
D.KAUFMANN1 at 19:27 EST
$$$$$$$$$ WARNING ---- LONG POST $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
$$$$$$$$$ DEFINITELY WORTH YOUR TIME $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Translation follows text.
Ich, Rudolf Franz Ferdinand Hoess, sage nach vorhergehender
rechtmaessiger Vereidigung aus und erklaere wie folgt:
1. Ich bin sechsundvierzig Jahre alt und Mitglied der NSDAP
seit 1922 Mitglied der SS seit 1934; Mitglied der Waffen-SS seit
1939. Ich war Mitglied ab 1. Dezember 1934 des SS-Wachverbandes,
des sogenannten Totenkopfverbandes.
2. Seit 1934 hatte ich unausgesetzt in der Verwaltung von
Konzentrationslagern zu tun und tat Dienst in Dachau bis 1938;
dann als Adjutant in Sachsenhausen von 1938 bis zum 1. Mai 1940,
zu welcher Zeit ich zum Kommandanten von Auschwitz ernannt wurde.
Ich befehligte Auschwitz bis zum 1. Dezember 1943 und schaetze,
dass mindestens 2 500 000 Opfer dort durch Vergasung und Ver-
brennen hingerichtet und ausgerottet wurden; mindestens eine
weitere halbe Million starben durch Hunger und Krankheit, was
eine Gesamtzahl von ungefaehr 3 000 000 Toten ausmacht. Diese
Zahl stellt ungefaehr 70 oder 80 Prozent aller Personen dar, die
als Gefangene nach Auschwitz geschickt wurden; die uebrigen
wurden ausgesucht und fuer Sklavenarbeit in den Industrien des
Konzentrationslagers verwendet. Unter den hingerichteten und
verbrannten Personen befanden sich ungefaehr 20 000 russische
Kriegsgefangene (die frueher von der Gestapo aus den Gefaeng-
nissen der Kriegsgefangenen ausgesondert waren); diese wurden
in Auschwitz den Wehrmacht-Transporten, die von regulaeren
Offizieren und Mannschaften der Wehrmacht befehligt wurden,
ausgeliefert. Der Rest der Gesamtzahl der Opfer umfasste unge-
faehr 100 000 deutsche Juden und eine grosse Anzahl von Ein-
wohnern, meistens Juden, aus Holland, Frankreich, Belgien, Polen,
Ungarn, Tschechoslowakei, Griechenland oder anderen Laendern.
Ungefaehr 400 000 ungarische Juden wurden allein in Auschwitz im
Sommer 1944 von uns hingerichtet.
4. Massenhinrichtungen durch Vergasung begannen im Laufe des
Sommers 1941 und dauerten bis zum Herbst 1944. Ich beaufsichtigte
persoenlich die Hinrichtungen in Auschwitz bis zum 1. Dezember
1943. . . Alle Massenhinrichtungen durch Vergasung fanden unter
dem direkten Befehl unter der Aufsicht und Verantwortlichkeit
der RSHA statt. Ich erhielt unmittelbar von der RSHA alle
Befehle zur Ausfuehrung dieser Massenhinrichtungen.
6. Die "Endloesung" der juedischen Frage bedeutete die
vollstaendige Ausrottung aller Juden in Europa. Ich hatte den
Befehl, Ausrottungserleichterungen in Auschwitz im Juni 1942 zu
schaffen. Zu jener Zeit bestanden schon drei weitere Vernicht-
ungslager im Generalgouvernement: Belzec, Treblinka und Wolzek.
Diese Lager befanden sich unter dem Einsatzkommando der Sicher-
heitspolizei und des SD. Ich besuchte Treblinka, um festzu-
stellen, wie die Vernichtungen ausgefuehrt wurden. Der Lager-
kommandant von Treblinka sagte mir, dass er im Laufe eines
halben Jahres 80 000 liquidiert haette. Er hatte hauptsaechlich
mit der Liquidierung aller Juden aus dem Warschauer Ghetto zu
tun. Er wandte Monoxid-Gas an, und nach seiner Ansicht waren
seine Methode nicht sehr wirksam. Als ich das Vernichtungs-
gebaeude in Auschwitz errichtete, gebrauchte ich also Zyklon B,
eine kristallisierte Blausaeure, die wir in die Todeskammer
durch eine kleine Oeffnung einwarfen. Es dauerte 3 bis 15
Minuten, je nach den klimatischen Verhaeltnissen, um die
Menschen in der Todeskammer zu toeten. Wir wussten, wenn die
Menschen tot waren, weil ihr Kreischen aufhoerte. Wir warteten
gewoehnlich eine halbe Stunde, bevor wir die Tueren oeffneten
und die Leichen entfernten. Nachdem die Leichen fortgebracht
waren, nahmen unsere Sonderkommandos die Ringe ab und zogen das
Gold aus den Zaehnen der Koerper.
7. Eine andere Verbesserung gegenueber Treblinka war, dass
wir Gaskammern bauten, die 2000 Menschen auf einmal fassen
konnte, waehrend die 10 Gaskammern in Treblinka nur je 200
Menschen fassten. Die Art und Weise, wie wir unsere Opfer aus-
waehlten, war folgendermassen: zwei SS-Aerzte waren in Auschwitz
taetig, um die einlaufenden Gefangenentransporte zu untersuchen.
Die Gefangenen mussten bei einem der Aerzte vorbeigehen, der bei
ihrem Vorbeimarsch durch Zeichen die Entscheidung faellte.
Diejenigen, die zur Arbeit taugten, wurden ins Lager geschickt.
Andere wurden sofort in die Vernichtungsanlagen geschickt.
Kinder im zarten Alter wurden unterschiedlos vernichtet, da auf
Grund ihrer Jugend sie unfaehig waren, zu arbeiten. Noch eine
andere Verbesserung, die wir gegenueber Treblinka machten, war
diejenige, dass in Treblinka die Opfer fast immer wussten, dass
sie vernichtet werden sollten, waehrend in Auschwitz wir uns
bemuehten, die Opfer zum Narren zu halten, indem sie glaubten,
dass sie ein Entlausungsverfahren durchzumachen haetten.
Natuerlich erkannten sie auch haeufig unsere wahren Absichten
und wir hatten deswegen manchmal Aufruhr und Schwierigkeiten.
Sehr haeufig wollten Frauen ihre Kinder unter den Kleidern
verbergen, aber wenn wir sie fanden, wurden die Kinder natuerlich
zur Vernichtung hineingesandt. Wir sollten diese Vernichtungen
im Geheimen ausfuehren, aber der faule und Uebelkeit erregende
Gestank, der von der ununterbrochenen Koerperverbrennung aus-
ging, durchdrang die ganze Gegend, und alle Leute, die in den
umliegenden Gemeinden lebten, wussten, dass in Auschwitz
Vernichtungen im Gange waren.
Die obrigen Angaben sind wahr; diese Erklaerung gab ich
freiwillig und ohne Zwang ab. Nach Durchlesen der Angaben habe
ich dieselben unterzeichnet und vollzogen in Nuernberg,
Deutschland, am fuenften Tage des April 1946.
Rudolf Franz Ferdinand Hoess
In my rather rough German, this translates to:
I, Rudolf Franz Ferdinand Hoess, having been duly sworn in, state
and declare as follows:
1. I am 46 years old and member of the Nazi party since 1922,
member of the SS since 1934; member of the SS-in-arms since 1939. I
was, from December 1, 1934, a member of the SS-Wachverband, the so-
called skull unit.
2. Since 1934 I was continuously busy in the administration of
concentration camps and did service in Dachau until 1938; then as
adjutant in Sachsenhausen from 1938 until May 1, 1940, at which time
I was appointed as commander of Auschwitz. I commanded Auschwitz
up to December 1, 1943 and estimate that at least 2,500,000 victims
were put to death and exterminated there through gassing and
burning; at least a further half million died through hunger and
sickness, which amounts to a total number of approximately
3,000,000 dead. This number represents approximately 70 or 80
percent of all persons who were sent to Auschwitz as prisoners;
the others were selected and used for slave labor in the industries
of the concentration camp. Among the executed and cremated persons
were approximately 20,000 Russian prisoners of war (who earlier
were singled out by the Gestapo from the jails of the war
prisoners); these were delivered into Auschwitz on the Wehrmacht
transports, which were commanded by the regular officers and men
of the Wehrmacht. The rest of the entire number of victims con-
tained approximately 100,000 German Jews and a large number of
inhabitants, mostly Jews, from Holland, France, Belgium, Poland,
Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Greece or other lands. Approximately
400,000 Hungarian Jews alone were executed by us in Auschwitz in
the summer of 1944.
4. Mass executions through gassing began in the course of the
summer, 1941, and continued up to the fall, 1944. I personally
supervised the executions in Auschwitz up to December 1, 1943...
All mass executions by gassing took place under the direct order,
under the supervision and responsibility of the RSHA. I received
all orders for the carrying out of these mass executions directly
from the RSHA.
6. The "final solution" of the Jewish question meant the
complete extermination of all Jews in Europe. I had the order to
produce extermination facilities in Auschwitz in June 1942. At
that time three further annihilation camps already existed in
the general government: Belzec, Treblinka and Wolzek. These camps
found themselves under the mission command of the security
police and the SD. I visited Treblinka in order to determine how
the annihilations were carried out. The camp commander of
Treblinka said to me that he had liquidated 80,000 in the course
of a half year. He had mainly to do with the liquidation of all
Jews from the Warsaw ghetto. He used monoxide gas and according
to his opinion his methods were not very effective. When I built
the annihilation building in Auschwitz, I therefore used Zyklon
B, a crystallized hydrocyanic acid, which we threw into the death
chamber through a small opening. It took 3 to 15 minutes,
depending on the climatic conditions, in order to kill the people
in the death chamber. We knew when the people were dead because
their screaming stopped. We waited usually a half hour before we
opened the doors and removed the bodies. After the bodies were
brought forth, our special commandos took off the rings and
pulled the gold out of the teeth of the bodies.
7. One other improvement as compared to Treblinka was that
we built gas chambers which could hold 2000 people at once,
while the 10 gas chambers in Treblinka held only 200 people
each. The method and manner how we chose our victims was as
follows: two SS doctors were busy in Auschwitz in order to look
over the arriving prisoner transports. The prisoners had to
pass by one of the doctors, who pronounced the verdict by a
sign in their march past. Those who were fit for work were sent
into the camp. The others were immediately sent into the
annihilation installations. Children of a tender age were
indiscriminately destroyed since on the basis of their youth
they were unfit to work. Still one other improvement, which we
made opposite Treblinka, was the one that in Treblinka the
victims almost always knew that they were supposed to be
annihilated, while in Auschwitz we strove to keep the victims
unknowing in that they believed that they had to undergo a
delousing procedure. Of course they also often recognized our
true intentions and we therefore had sometimes rebellion and
difficulties. Very often women wanted to hide their children
under their clothes, but when we found them, the children were,
of course, sent in to destruction. We were supposed to carry
out these annihilations in secret, but the rotten and nausea-
inducing stench, which went out from the uninterrupted burning
of bodies, permeated the whole region, and all the people who
lived in the surrounding communities knew that annihilations
were in progress in Auschwitz.
The foregoing statements are true; this explanation I
have given voluntarily and without coercion. After reading
through the statements I have signed and ratified the same
in Nuremberg, Germany, on the 5th day of April, 1946.
Rudolf Franz Ferdinand Hoess
From "Der Kommandant von Auschwitz erzaehlt," in _Das Dritte
Reich und die Juden_, edited by Leon Poliakov and Josef Wulf.
Berlin Grunewald, Verlag-GmbH, 1955.
Notes:
(1) Auschwitz was an extermination and slave-labor camp in
Poland.
(2) Rudolf Franz Ferdinand Hoess (1900-1947) was arrested by
British military police in 1946, and after being
interrogated by American authorities, was handed over to
the Polish government. The Poles tried him in March, 1947
and condemned him to death, and executed him in April,
1947.
(3) The SS (Schutzstaffel) was Hitler's black-shirted elite
guard. The SS-in-arms was a branch of the SS which
constituted a separate army along with the regular
German army.
(4) The SS-Wachverband handled special duties, such as
guarding concentration camps. Their insignia was a skull.
(5) Dachau was a concentration camp near Munich.
(6) Sachsenhausen was a concentration camp in Northern Germany.
(7) Gestapo is the abbreviation for Geheime Staatspolizei, the
secret state police.
(8) The Wehrmacht were the German armed forces; this term
replaced Reichswehr after Hitler came to power.
(9) The RSHA was the Reichssicherheitshauptamt, the Reich
security office, headquarters of the SS police forces.
If anyone can provide a more polished translation, feel free.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 45 Fri Mar 13, 1992
NONESUCH at 19:57 EST
There's only one way to deal with people like this.
IGN PER
-= Larry Smith * Amarillo, TX =-
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 46 Fri Mar 13, 1992
GSCOTT-MOORE [Gerry] at 21:38 EST
\\\---
M.Rungu:
Are you happy now? G.Raven has made his/her perspective more than plain. All
witnesses to the holocaust are liars. And they have a reason to lie: to
retain their control of a national state that was stolen from their
predecessors. Something tells me there are plenty more "reasons" for the lie
if the Palestininans are taken out of the argument.
But forget the fact that ALL nations that exist now were "stolen" from a
predecessor. This particular nation has only the one valid reason by which
they can validate their national existance: that millions were killed
somewhere else in a gas chamber. Without this the would crumble and be
dispersed by the wind of "true justice".
So we've heard the logic. All eye-witnesses, all participant, are just a
bunch of dirty liars. Fortunately for us Mr/Ms Raven has come with the real
truth. Of course his/her perspective is only one story, and might well be ill-
compared by virture of sheer numbers to those who would argue for the "hoax".
So who are we to believe the one or the many? I'll go with the many, thank
you.
After reviewing the appropariate bilious response I'll ignore the topic.
\\\--- Gerry
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 47 Fri Mar 13, 1992
C.FINK4 [Carl] at 21:46 EST
>>America should learn that it's amendments aren't black and white. There is
>>room for the shades of grey necessary to prosecute hate mongers and to keep
>>its citizens safe from hatred and oppression, whether physical, or in print.
Totally disagree. I think that Mr. Raven has a right under U.S. law to
post untrue nonsense here as much as he pleases. As a member of the ACLU, I
even would support that right legally. I don't like ANY infringement on
anyone's freedoms.
>>...no matter how many tons of documents stolen from the Germans by the
Allies,
>>there is no proof anywhere...
Note that Mr. Raven's phrasing indicates sympathy with the Germans, not the
Allies.
>>By the way, any undertaking of this size would leave behind such a trail of
>>evidence that no one would be able to deny it. The fact that there is NO
>>evidence to support the Holocaust myth is Another Big Clue.
Actually, the above is not Another Big Clue - it's what Hitler would have
called a Big Lie. There's lots of evidence - you just deny it. Read Pooh's
post.
>>As such, I am not interested in defending Adolf Hitler to my dying breath.
>>I will say, however, that he was a great man ... certainly greater than
>>Churchill and FDR put together...
Depends on what you mean by "great". He was certainly a *talented* man,
but most of us reserve the word "great" for those who are not legitimate
icons of evil in our time.
As to those who say, "Just ignore him and he'll go away": I think it's
important to refute his claims, because some of those reading this TOP
may not know history well.
Carl Fink
(Pardon the double-spacing. I have no idea why that happened.)
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 48 Fri Mar 13, 1992
M.RUNGU at 21:53 EST
Mr. Marty Fein,
Your insistence on silence as a response to Mr. Raven's comments are not
reflected in your voluminous postings. Are you saying that everybody should
be quiet about this and not respond to Mr. Raven except yourself, or are you
including yourself and plan to ALSO be silent in this subject area at some
future date?
Judging from the many responses and the heated debate that already seems to be
taking shape after only a few days, it would seem that nobody is interested in
silence but instead want to discuss this thing a great deal.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 49 Fri Mar 13, 1992
M.RUNGU at 21:56 EST
Mr. C. Taggart,
I read all of Mr. Raven's notes so far, and didn't see anywhere in them any
apologies or support for Nazism, nor did I read any expression of anti-
semitism. In fact, in one of his messages he said something to the effect
that Jews are being "used" by the holocaust.
I am not a mind reader and don't know what his "motivations" or "sympathies"
or whatever are (are you?) and can only go by that which is expressed in his
notes. I think it's only fair that we all approach it this way, i.e. - let's
look at what Mr. Raven is writing, and not at what we THINK he is
writing/thinking/intending. Let's be fair about this.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 51 Fri Mar 13, 1992
M.RUNGU at 22:02 EST
Mr. P. Bobritt,
Your comment to Mr. Raven, "you repulsive human being" is pretty extreme
(although it does promote him from "perverted jackal" which was applied to him
in an earlier message), and I don't see how it contributes to this discussion.
I don't see Mr. Raven calling anybody else names, throwing out insults, or
attacking anybody. In fact, so far at least, he's been pretty well behaved,
unlike most of the others appearing in this topic area.
So far as personal behaviour goes, I will give Mr. Raven an "A" at this point.
Mr. Bobritt will have to get an "F".
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Category 15, Topic 4
Message 52 Fri Mar 13, 1992
M.RUNGU at 22:09 EST
Mr. Raven,
Thankyou for giving us some personal info so we can see where you are coming
from. I wish to apologize on behalf of some of the others, who have thrown
some pretty foul insults at you and who don't seem to have any self-control at
all. They are obviously very upset that you have raised doubts about the
holocaust. Nevertheless, there seems to be a lot of interest in this area and
already this topic is outshining participation-wise, most of the other topics
ANYWHERE on the Public Forum.
Anyway. Some of the ideas you expressed puzzle me. I have a few questions
you could perhaps answer: 1. What specifically is the connection between the
holocaust and
Israel and the Palestinians. I don't see what the one has to
do with the other. 2. You said in one of your notes that there were
"no gas chambers".
What are your sources for this? Can you name some books or
studies or whatever to back up that statement. I see a lot of
movies on tv that deal with the holocaust and they always
show or mention gas chambers. Is tv lying to us? 3. Who is this Zundel
person you mentioned? You said in connection
with his name something about thought control in Canada, or
'thought crimes' or something like that. Amplify? I am curious to see
your replies. Many thanks, and a few handclaps for your good behavious in
the face of all the insults and attacks directed at you.
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Message 53 Fri Mar 13, 1992
J.WEISBERGE1 [Jon W.] at 22:13 EST
M.Rungu:
Are you ready to acknowledge at this point that those who characterized
G.Raven's efforts as attempting to deny the existence of the Holocaust are
correct? If not, why not? How else do you interpret the original - now
vanished - topic header, with its references to non-existent gas chambers, the
"Holohoax," etc., and G.Raven's subsequent posts?
It is not "intellectual bigotry" to denounce this effort, any more than it is
"intellectual bigotry" to denounce an effort, no matter how well "documented,"
to prove that the earth is not round. Intolerant, perhaps - but it is an
intolerance that is legitimately deployed when anti-human, hateful agendas are
promulgated.
I have for a long time wrestled with the question of whether the US, like
Canada, ought to place legal sanctions on hatemongering, but regardless of
one's opinion on that question, there is a big difference between arguing that
the power of the state ought not to be used to prevent such speech and arguing
that it deserves a respectful hearing. What it deserves is the contempt that
any exposition of racist, anti-historical, pro-Nazi, genocidal ideas deserves.
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Category 15, Topic 4
Message 54 Fri Mar 13, 1992
M.RUNGU at 22:31 EST
To J. Weisberg
Yes, it is clear now that Mr. Raven is denying the holocaust, or at least
parts of it. Still, he has the right to do so just as you or I have the right
to contradict him.
But I disagree with what you said about intolerance of his views being
"legitimately deployed". Intolerance is NEVER legitimately deployed.
Intolerance is intolerance; bigotry is bigotry; and racism is racism. The
intolerance or bigotry or racism expressed by one person is no more acceptable
than that expressed by another. And I see a lot of intolerance directed
towards Mr. Raven's views. Tolerance, on the other hand, is not the same thing
as "agreement". This is America, where freedom of speech and freedom of
expression and freedom of thought are enshrined in our constitution and in our
laws. I don't see anything in our constitution about "EXCEPT for those
denying the holocaust". If such an exception is somewhere in our
constitution, please refer me to it and I will stand corrected. Thankyou.
Really, the appearance of this topic can be regarded as a kind of test, a test
as to the level of tolerance and goodwill that exists in our country towards
unpopular viewpoints. So far, just about everybody has FAILED the test, which
bodes badly for the future of our country.
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Category 15, Topic 4
Message 55 Fri Mar 13, 1992
M.RUNGU at 22:35 EST
To Mr. Raven,
As an afterthought, I have another question.
I have a book called THE DIARY OF ANNE FRANK. When I read it, I was very
moved; Anne Frank wrote about her sufferings before the Germans took her away
to Auschwitz and gassed her. My question is, have you read this book, and if,
after reading it, how can you question the holocaust? The DIARY is required
reading is many or most schools, and really, to me at least, it represents the
holocaust like no other book can. I am sure that most of the people who have
read Anne's diary will agree with me there.
Your comments?
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Message 56 Fri Mar 13, 1992
H.WILSON11 at 22:38 EST
28 EIREANNACH...
There's a saying on the Sci-Fi bb DFTEB..don't feed the energy beast (or
something like that)
If we all ignore him, he'll soon tire of his silly game, and go play
elsewhere.....Harvey in Atlanta.
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Message 57 Fri Mar 13, 1992
DD.LANGDON at 22:55 EST
Mr. Raven,
Are you blind or just obnoxious? The facts of the Holocaust have been so
thourghly documented by historians and journalists that only a fool would deny
that it occured. Most clear in my thoughts was a documentary several years
ago that interviewed (former) Nazis about what happened in the camps. Their
descriptions were more horrifying than anything I could have imagined.
I suggest you spend some time in the library checking out European world
history circa 1932 - 1945.
Dan Langdon
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Category 15, Topic 4
Message 58 Fri Mar 13, 1992
POOH.BAH at 22:55 EST
M.RUNGU: It is amazing how closely your posting style matches that of Greg
Raven. It does make one wonder, doesn't it?
Anyway, you said that Greg did not mention Iraq in his message and you are
correct. However, Greg did indeed imply that without Israel there would be
peace in the Middle East. I was using the recent situation with Iraq to prove
how faulty his logic is.
Now, you have asked Mr. Raven a number of questions. Since he mentioned in a
previous note that he would be unable to log on every day, let me take this
opportunity to answer the questions for him.
1. You asked for Mr. Raven's connection between the Holocaust/Israel and the
Palestinians. Okay, here is the way the Holocaust Deniers rationalize the
connection. They believe that the only reason that Israel exists is because of
the Holocaust and, in fact, they even believe that the Zionists (as well as
other Jewish organizations...per the CODOH ads) have concocted the Holocaust
as a false story just for that purpose. Therefore, if it hadn't been for the
Holocaust, there would be no Israel (of course this ignores both the Balfour
Declaration and the British Mandate...both of which predate the Holocaust)
and, with no Israel, the Palestinians would have the entire piece of real
estate now known as Israel and the Middle East would be at peace. The
Holocaust Denier author who most clearly states this is Butz and he does so on
the first page of his forward.
2. Next, you asked about the gas chambers and what studies have been done. Now
Mr. Raven would tell you all about Leuchter and his report and, if you look
uptopic a few messages, you will find that Leuchter has no qualifications to
write anything on gas chambers. Also, Mr. Raven will claim that the Leuchter
report is the only forensic study that has been done. If he were to do so, he
would definitely be misleading the readers here. After all, he would have
ignored the study done in 1945 by the Krakow Institute of Judiciary Expertise
which proved there were vast quantities of hydrocyanide compounds on the six
ventilation grills from Krema II that they tested.
3. You next asked about Zundel and his Canadian court case. Zundel is a
citizen of Germany and not Canada but has made his home in Canada for many
years. Canada has a law against spreading "false news." It was under this
criminal law that Zundel was prosecuted and convicted TWICE (the original
court case and the appeal). It was proved to two different juries that Zundel
was disseminating false information which he KNEW were lies...yet he claimed
what he was saying was the "truth." What false news was he spreading? The
"news" that the Holocaust is a hoax! IOW, the Holocaust has been put on trial
twice in Canada and has been proven twice! Although the Holocaust Deniers have
an author who wrote a book about the second Zundel trial, the best source is
the actual transcript of the proceedings.
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Category 15, Topic 4
Message 59 Fri Mar 13, 1992
D.FRIEDMAN14 at 23:23 EST
M. Rungu:
You suggest that it is impossible to tell what one is thinking from what
he/she is writing. However, if you know anything about the language of anti-
Semitic rhetoric, you should be able to recognize code phrases like "the
Holocaust is one of the biggest weapons in the Zionist arsenal."
Mr. Raven:
Gee, sir, I'm confused. Please help enlighten a dumb Jewish boy from New
York. Ok: I can see what a great weapon for us all the Holocaust is; but
then how come we're not using the Inquisition, the Pale of Settlement,
Chelmnicki's rebellion, the Slavic pogroms, etc...?
Inquiring minds want to know.
PS: I'm lucky, because I'm 5th generation American. I've got my grandparents
(the ones who haven't died in other ways, at any rate). But many of my
Jewish friends in the neighborhood lost grandparents in the Holohoax. Others'
grandparents (and parents) survived the Holohoax. What should I tell these
people? I'd really like to be able to explain to survivors I know what REALLY
happened to them (or are they just making it up to get sympathy and attention
and chicken soup); similarly, I'd like to be able to tell my friend Matt
where his grandparents really went. (Maybe they won the Polish lottery and
ran off to found a synagogue in Shangri-La???)
Dave Friedman
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Category 15, Topic 4
Message 60 Fri Mar 13, 1992
J.WEILER4 at 23:43 EST
I just don't understand what Mr. Raven has been reading about the Holocaust
that he can honestly say there is no evidence of its existence. 11,000,000
people ceased to exist. How can anyone deny that? There are people still alive
today with tattoos on the their arms who SAW (read EYE WITNESSES) people
getting killed and beaten in these camps.
My first reaction was to be silent and IGN PER this topic because it makes me
very upset. I decided I can't do that or I would be a bigger liar to myself
than Mr. Raven is. There were children who went to these camps and never saw
their parents again...were they part of the hoax too?
Furthermore, I do not appreciate, Mr. Raven, being patronized by you. Don't
fear, your "truth" will not burst my idealic bubble as you so put. I'm an
educated adult who has spent the past 6 years reading everything I could about
the Holocaust. This interest started when I found out how it had affected
members of my family.
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Category 15, Topic 4
Message 61 Sat Mar 14, 1992
POOH.BAH at 00:53 EST
55 M.Rungu: Are you serious, a shill or Greg in "disguise?" I find it very
interesting that you are only asking questions which exactly match the pre-set
Holocaust Deniers' dogma.
If you would like to know all about Anne Frank's diaries and loose sheets, I
would recommend that you check into the "Critical Edition" of her diary. It is
fascinating. First there is a group of essays, reports, etc. which include the
results from the State Science Forensic Laboratory of the Netherlands. The
SSFL tested the diaries and loose sheets for purposes of authenticating them.
Their final report was over 250 pages but there is an excellent summary in the
"Critical Edition."
I will be more than happy to summarize the results here but, suffice it to
say, they were able to determine that all the materials used (i.e. paper, ink,
binding, glue, etc.) were available at the time that Anne was in hiding and,
it turns out that shortly thereafter, elements which were present in these
materials at that time were removed. For instance, the ink had a high
concentration of iron but within five years inks no longer contained iron or
had very low concentrations.
The handwriting has been compared to other samples of Anne's writing from
letters to friends, etc. and it checks out perfectly.
The "Critical Edition" also contains all the diaries and loose sheets with
only minor changes. For instance, there are people mentioned in the diaries
who are still livin today. Some of them refused to grant permission to use
their names so initials are used instead.
Even with all of this and the fact that the diaries are fascinating, I have to
disagree that they tell the story of the Holocaust unlike any other source.
The diaries are the story of the life of one girl who died of typhus quite a
while after the last entry in the diary. The Holocaust was the systematic
destruction of over six million European Jews by the Nazis before and during
WWII. The diaries mention nothing of that....at best, they give us insight
into the lives of Jews who were hidden by the Righteous of the Nations.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 62 Sat Mar 14, 1992
RTRAYNOR at 01:08 EST
Dear me. Mr. Raven's raving do not inspire me to respond. Mr. Rungu's
do.
It is very interesting, and beginning to be enlightening, that you
excoriate those of us who are a touch warm on the subject for being
intolerant, suggest that intolerance is never acceptable, and quite
ignore Mr. Raven's own intolerance.
It is even more interesting that you value politeness as a virtue
superior to any other moral. Would you consider me a fine person, and
praise my posts, if I started a topic about the goodness of sacrificing
babies to Satan, eating their still-beating hearts raw, and forcing
women into pregnancy after pregnancy to keep the supply up... just so
long as I was polite and non-combative about my posts?
You will perhaps forgive me for feeling that there are higher values
to be upheld than praising Hitler in a civil fashion. Among them is
truth; it is difficult to imagine, as you attempt to rationalize, that
Raven does not praise Nazism when praising its chief adherent and
prophet - exactly what made Hitler "great" if it was not the
philosophic basis for all his actions? It is difficult to imagine that
you truly love civil discourse, when you make a point of mocking
POOH-BAH's name. If your sole contributions are going to be to
admonish us in a patronizing tone to play nice, you needn't - the sysops
can do that just fine, as Ric already has.
Yr obt svt,
= = *> Bevan >* = =
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Category 15, Topic 4
Message 63 Sat Mar 14, 1992
M.FEINS at 01:10 EST
RUNGU-RAVEN, RAVEN-RUNGO and this shall be my last. There shall be
SILENCE
Obviously you are one and the same person, set em up in the alley, and the
knock em down what a farce and a shame, and you may rant on.
Per Ign
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Category 15, Topic 4
Message 64 Sat Mar 14, 1992
RTRAYNOR at 01:18 EST
Well, they do appear to be seperate people, living in Washington and
California respectively, according to the directory.
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Category 15, Topic 4
Message 67 Sat Mar 14, 1992
G.RAVEN at 02:34 EST
To Pooh.Bah --- You know, people like you and Raul Hilberg have obviously
studied this matter to some degree, and seem quite intelligent. I find it
Beyond Belief that you would cling to such a wrong-headed interpretation of
the facts. Perhaps you have a vested interest in supporting the illegal and
corrupt state of Israel. No matter. --- The Himmler speech (message 29) to
which you seem to be referring (October 4, yes? and not October 6?), is one
of a series of speeches given by Himmler during this time. By focussing in on
roughly two pages of the text (out of 60+ pages), and by ignoring the other
speeches (which were along the same lines), you manage to misrepresent the
entire matter. --- You also have to look at other Himmler documents, such as
the cover letter he wrote concerning an article of alleged atrocities by
Stephen Wise and the World Jewish Congress. There, Himmler calls these claims
propaganda. --- You have also ignored the meetings between Himmler and Masur,
in which Himmler says that the camps are not what they are rumored to be.
For that matter, Himmler told others on numerous occasions that these
allegations were not true. --- In fact, Himmler participated in the Europa
plan through 1942, 43, and 44, in Brataslavia, Slovakia, to find a place to
send the Jews to get them out of Germany (including the occupied
territories). Jews involved in those negotiations (and Jewish historians
since then) believed Himmler to be sincere in his desire to find someplace to
resettle the Jews. --- I realize that this speech is often touted as the best
evidence (which in itself is a damning indictment of the quality of the
established Holocaust history), but once you read Mark Weber's upcoming book
(which deals with this and other subjects), you will understand just how
shaky this plank is. --- By the way, Mark says "hi."
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Category 15, Topic 4
Message 68 Sat Mar 14, 1992
G.RAVEN at 02:35 EST
Pooh.Bah, Pooh.Bah, Pooh.Bah! --- You have slipped so far so fast! Are you
really so desparate for "proof" that you have to jump from the Oct. 4 Himmler
speech at Posen to the obviously fabricated Franke-Gricksch "Resettlement
Action Report?" Wow! --- Weren't you just telling me how you have referred to
the original documents? Of the F-G report? Really??? Are you sure you didn't
refer to a typescript cop made by Eric Lipman from a carbon copy of the
original ... which has NEVER been found? Have you not seen the English words
accidentally used in place of German words in this typescript copy? Have you
not seen the other errors? --- All that aside, any reasonable person reading
this "report" would immediately suspect something is wrong. Where is this
"house?" Where are the hollow pillars? What "certain substances are used? How
is it possible to open the doors a few minutes later when a deadly poison is
supposedly still rampant in the air? How can the hair be cut off without
rinsing it of the poison gas? Just how big is this house that it has
elevators for hundreds of dead people? Is it normal for large Polish houses
to have ten large crematoria? By what amazing physical property do fresh
corpses burn particularly well? If it takes a modern crematoria 2 to 3 hours
to partially dispose of a human corpse, how can 10,000 corpses be disposed of
in 24 hours with only 10 crematoria? --- The Franke-Gricksch "Report" is not
only a bad forgery, the fabrications contained therein do not even hang
together. You MUST be able to do better than this!
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Category 15, Topic 4
Message 69 Sat Mar 14, 1992
G.RAVEN at 02:35 EST
To Pooh.Bah --- Although there may not be peace in the Middle East without the
state of Israel there, it is unquestionable that had we not been so eager to
support the thugs of Tel Aviv, we would not have installed the Shah of Iran
and trained him to oppress his people, so the Ayatollah would not have come
to power by overthrowing him. Thus, we would not have had to arm Iraq to
counter the religious fundamentalism with a secular state (lead by Saddam
Hussein). Of course, if you wish to go further back, if we had not backed the
British in dividing the Middle East to suit their "divide and conquer"
tactics, perhaps Kuwait would never have been separated from Iraq in the
first place.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 70 Sat Mar 14, 1992
G.RAVEN at 02:36 EST
To Pooh.Bah --- You make a great deal of noise (much of it inaccurate) about
Fred Leuchter, the man. Why not address the contents of the Leuchter Report?
Answer: because you cannot. Furthermore, I note that you have not reported
that the results of the Leuchter Report were duplicated by the Department of
Toxicology in Poland, that a prominent Austrian engineer has just issued a
report that backs Leuchter's, and that a prominent German engineer is in the
process of issueing a report that backs Leuchter. It doesn't matter if
Leuchter is only "qualified" to herd banana slugs, if you with all your high
and mighty "proof" cannot provide evidence that his Report is not accurate,
you are evading the issue. I wonder why! --- For those who do not know Mr.
Leuchter, I can assure you that this man wouldn't know how to tell a lie. He
is so straightforward and honest it makes you wonder if there are any more
like him around. He WAS accepted as an expert witness at the Zuendel trial,
and he DID consult with those prisons who disavowed contact with him. I have
more details on this, if anyone is interested. --- The reason why Mr. Leuchter
was accepted as an expert witness is that Mr. Bill Armontrout, warden at
Missouri State Prison, swore under oath that the ONLY expert on gas chambers
and other extermination equipment in the United States is Fred Leuchter.
Period. Mr. Leuchter has many designs, patents, and other accomplishments to
his name. He is competent in the extreme. --- The bottom line is that the
Leuchter Report and all the others say the same thing: there were no gas
chambers at Auschwitz, Birkenau, or Majdanek. Not only are the rooms not
capable of being used as gas chambers, tests show that they never were used
as such.
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Category 15, Topic 4
Message 71 Sat Mar 14, 1992
P.PERCHANSKY [Marana_tha] at 06:52 EST
Hello to every one:
It amazes me that any one could try to purpertrate (sp?) an outright lie that
the Holocaust never happened or that gas chambers never existed.
THE ENTIRE WORLD HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO SEE (VIA FILM) THAT GAS CHAMBERS
EXISTED AND THAT HUMANS DIED FROM THEM.
--- Peter M. Perchansky
Psalms 18:31
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Category 15, Topic 4
Message 72 Sat Mar 14, 1992
POOH.BAH at 09:51 EST
Greg Raven: Tell Mark Weber that I said "hi" right back. Now, let's go over
the evidence, shall we? First, about the F-G report. Actually the copy I
reviewed is the carbon copy. Being a carbon copy, it is an exact duplicate of
the original. The problems that you mentioned as far as the text itself is
concerned was not evident. But what about the description contained in the
report?
Now, you have taken that word "house" to mean literally a building where
people reside and, a single family dwelling at that. Is that what that one
word means? Not necessarily. When evaluating any document it must be evaluated
not only on its content but also the CONTEXT of other documents.
For instance, we know that the buildings which housed the gas chambers and
crematoria were concealed by shrubbery, etc. These buildings might indeed be
referred to as "houses" for want of a better word....after all, that is what
they were supposed to resemble and not some cold, death inducing facility. Is
selecting a single word the best you can do in debunking an entire document?
You also complain that the exact substances that were put down the pillars are
not mentioned. What was the reason of this report? F-G was a member of the SS
personnel office. He and von Herff were sent on this official inspection to
determine why there were suicides among the SS guards. Therefore, the PROCESS
that was being employed was important and not the details.....the purpose of
the report was to evaluate what the SS personnel had to experience and if this
was somehow involved with the suicide rate. BTW, we know all this from the
primary documents in F-G and Herff's personnel files.
What about the removal of the bodies a few minutes later? That was the purpose
of the ventilation systems in the gas chambers. It was the grills from these
ventilation systems that was tested by the Krakow Institute of Judiciary
Expertise in 1945 and found to have large quantities of hydrocyanide
compounds.
What special properties do fresh corpses have that allow them to burn
particularly well? That isn't too difficult. First, it is called fresh fat.
Second, it is called lack of embalming. Why weren't these features mentioned
in the report? Because that wasn't the purpose of the report.
Why wasn't the hair washed before being handled? Now that question is really
reaching isn't it? After all, the answer is contained within the report
itself. "The hair of the corpses is cut off...by specialists (Jews)" and "The
job is performed by Jewish prisoners, who never step outside this camp again."
IOW, they weren't concerned about those who cut the hair being contaminated by
traces of cyanide that might remain. It is really very simple....and it also
is interesting to note that F-G was very particular as to who the
"specialists" were and who handled all of this processing. After all, that WAS
the purpose of his report.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 73 Sat Mar 14, 1992
POOH.BAH at 10:07 EST
Raven: Are you not aware that Himmler made TWO speeches in Posen? You keep
pointing to only the one. Perhaps you should investigate further. Now, let us
put his Posen speeches into context. SS personnel at the extermination camps
were committing suicide. In May, F-G and von Herff of the SS Personnel Office
make an official inspection trip to determine the reason(s) for this. In
October, Himmler makes his speeches to these same individuals and anyone else
concerned in the "Final Solution." What was the purpose of these speeches? It
certainly wasn't for public consumption. In fact he even stated that what the
audience was going to hear would not be spoken of again and never written
about (it brings to mind Lincoln's statement that the Gettysburg Address would
not be remembered but the battle would be).
These speeches outlined the program and made a point to explain why women and
children had to also be included. Therein we learn the reason for these
meetings and the speeches. The SS suicide rate had been determined to be
caused in whole or in part by the slaughter of innocent women and children.
Therefore, since Himmler had already determined that the SS personnel at the
camps could not be rotated out to the less stressful "front," it became
important to clearly elucidate the reason for murdering the innocents.
Once again, we know all of this from the primary documents....the memos,
reports and other correspondence. We even know that the meetings had programs
that were handed out by being placed on every seat and that it was forbidden
to remove a program from the room in which Himmler made his speeches.
It is interesting that you speak of "historians" as though they are a
monolithic group when it comes to the Holocaust. Why didn't you clearly state
(so as not to mislead) that the FUNCTIONALISTS are the ones who place greater
importance upon those documents which were meant for public consumption than
do the INTENTIONALISTS? Logic demands that we emphasize the private more than
the public. There can be political reasons for the public statements which
have nothing to do with the facts. The private statements are also motivated
by certain forces but rarely are those forces as significant as the pressure
on the public statements.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 74 Sat Mar 14, 1992
POOH.BAH at 10:30 EST
Raven: You want an evaluation of the Leuchter Report? Really? First, let's
correct a misunderstanding about Leuchter's qualifications. To do this it is
prudent to review the court record of the second Zundel trial. In there the
court states: "I realize his opinion on this report is that there were never
any gassings or there were never any exterminations carried on in this
facility. As far as I'm concerned, from what I've heard, he is not capable of
giving that opinion."
That seems pretty clear to me. The court determined that Leuchter is not
capable of giving the opinion that there were never any exterminations or
gassings carried out at Auschwitz. However, you also mentioned Majdanek. You
have read the Leuchter Report haven't you? If so, then you know that Leuchter
never conducted any studies at Majdanek!
But, let's review the report and see what we find. Leuchter correctly states
that the Nazis were planning/constructing the gas chambers in late 1941. He
also states that at that time the US was the only country in which executions
were being carried out by gas chambers and then concludes that these two facts
make the gas chamber story implausible because Germany never consulted the US
on gas chamber technology. It leaves one wondering if Leuchter has ever heard
of a little something called WWII!
Then we have an even funnier episode later in the report. Leuchter correctly
identifies the structures he was examining as having been razed to the their
foundations. Then he latter states (on the same page but over a column) that
these structures would not be SAFE to be used as gas chambers! Let me tell
you, I would have to agree with that....any structure that has been razed to
its foundations would be very difficult to use as a gas chamber (or anything
else) and, since there are loose bricks, etc. still around, it would not be
safe.
Then we have Leuchter stating that "Kremas I, II, III, IV and V are described
historically and on inspection were verified to have been converted mortuaries
or morgues connected and housed in the same facility as the crematories."
Hmmmm.....so they were converted mortuaries and morgues, huh? Into what were
they converted? Leuchter never tells us in his report but he did say above
that they have been "described historically and on inspection were verified"
which means that his inspection verified the historical description.
Therefore, we must review the historical description to discover into what
they had been converted and, lo and behold, we discover that they are
historically described as GAS CHAMBERS!
But, let's address the "forensic" evidence. In so doing, I am going to have to
ignore the non-scientific method that Leuchter employed but my comments do
need to be taken not as fact but only as facts based upon the results of
Leuchter's dubious methods. To do this we only need to turn to Appendix II
where Leuchter gives us a nice graph of the analysis of the samples he
illegally removed from Auschwitz.
Now we need to keep in mind Leuchter's statements that these structures have
been razed to their foundations. We know from the historical record that this
was done 43 YEARS before Leuchter went to Auschwitz-Birkenau. So, for 43 YEARS
the samples he stole had been exposed to rain, sun, snow, ice and pollution.
Yet, with all that, in Kremas I, III, IV and V, traces of cyanide remainded
(ranging from 1.1 mg/kg - 7.9 mg.kg). Imagine the quantities of cyanide that
had to be present to have withstood this test of time and the elements!
I can certainly understand why the court would find that Leuchter is not
capable of rendering an opinion that these structures were never used for gas
chambers, can't you?
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 75 Sat Mar 14, 1992
ERIC-M at 11:12 EST
>>> M.RUNGU
> So far as personal behaviour goes, I will give Mr. Raven an "A" at this
> point. Mr. Bobritt will have to get an "F".
Let's also give Mr. Raven an "A" in ventriloquism, shall we? :-)
/
|/ ric, sitting back and starting to enjoy the comedic value of this
|/ charade
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 76 Sat Mar 14, 1992
M.FEINS at 11:26 EST
A moment of Silence in the
Blessed Memory
of the Multi Millions of
JEWS, NON-JEWS, GAYS,
MENTALLY AND PHYSICALLY INFIRM
that were indiscriminately slaughtered
by the depraved animals of Nazi Holocaust
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 77 Sat Mar 14, 1992
J.STENGEL [John] at 11:40 EST
Raven says he considers A. Hitler to be a great man; one would assume,
then, that he has read *Mein Kampf*. Anyone who reads *Mein Kampf* is left
with no doubt as to Hitler's opinions concerning the Jews.
.
If one were a lawyer trying a murder case, the first thing to be
established would be "motive"; i.e. for what reason did the accused perpetrate
the crime upon the victim? I would think that even a short scan through *Mein
Kampf* would leave the "jury" with a pretty solid impression of "motive".
One would have to conclude that the writer (i.e. Hitler) was highly
"motivated" to very negative actions against the Jews. Hitler wrote the book
during the twenties, years before he gained power. "Jews" (and Hitler's
perception of their role in World and European history) are the dominating
theme of the book. Hitler accuses the Jews of being the source of all social,
economic, and political ills of the world...he paints them as a kind of
parasitic virus "infecting" the "healthy peoples" of the world. Subsequent
Nazi literature expanded on this theme of Jews as "viruses", "bacterium",
"vermin", etc. Hitler goes on to imply that he is the "doctor" that Germany
and the world needed; though not being exactly specific as to his proposed
"remedy"; one is left with no doubt as to his basic intentions (given future
opportunity). So with no further ado, if it please the court, the prosecution
enters the book *Mein Kampf* as State's exhibit "1".
.
The second factor our "lawyer" must establish is "opportunity". I don't
think there is anyone who will question the general outline of the military
history of the European Theater of WW2. At its peak of expansion, Nazi
Germany had conquered most of the territory (and population) of continental
Europe. Included in these populations living under Nazi administration were
the bulk of European Jews. I submit, by virtue of generally accepted
historical fact; that Hitler indeed had the "opportunity" to do pretty much
anything he wanted to do to the Jews (and anyone else) residing in much of
Europe from 1942-45.
.
Now comes the first of the points where Raven might try to wiggle out of
a conviction (on technicalities). We must establish the "weapon" or
"weapons". I would propose to the jury that the Nazi State itself was the
weapon; it was designed and built (mostly by Hitler) not as a national state
to maintain the well being and prosperity of the German people, but as an
instrument of destruction; pure and simple. From the moment the Nazis gained
control of the German State apparatus in 1933, they set to work preparing it
to be the instrument of the will of its Fuehrer. The "will" of its Fuehrer
was the destruction of all those he perceived as his (and by implication
Germany's) enemies...the Jews were at the top of the list (see prosecution
exihibit "1"). Raven might lead us into all sorts of technical arguments
about the relative efficiency (for mass killing) of XyxlonB as opposed to
Carbon Monoxide or a bullet in the back of the head. He may even discredit
certain eyewitness testimony. Whereas we sometimes use the saying, "we can't
see the trees for the forest", in Raven's case, he can't see the forest for
the trees. Raven would have us stand around a particular tree; because we
cannot agree whether it is an ash, and oak, or a pine, he would have us deny
we are in the midst of a forest.
.
The fourth major piece of evidence would be the "corpus delecti"... i.e.
the body, in this case, the corpses. Since the events in question took place
nearly 50 years ago...this presents a problem to the prosecution. Up to this
point, we have relied heavily on photographic and anectodal evidence. We may
at this point be able to "prove" perhaps only hundreds of thousands rather
than millions of victims. Mass cremation leaves less forensic evidence than,
say, mass burial pits (i.e. skulls, bones etc.). Up until 1989, the areas in
which the bulk of the killings are thought to have occurred had been under
control of a power which had its own crimes to conceal and was hence not too
enthusiastic about investigators digging holes here and there in the forests.
Perhaps the post 1989 political environment in Eastern Europe and the former
Soviet Union opens the possibility of further forensic investigation and
gathering of evidence on these matters. If we discover the ash pits, however,
how do we evaluate them? One pound of ash equals one victim? Will we quibble
about numbers? We DO HAVE solid forensic evidence gathered right after the
war on at least hundreds of thousands of victims...is this not enough to
convict?
.
Germany under Hitler was the personal weapon of Hitler...Hitlers "enemies"
were certainly within range and in his sights; Raven implies that Hitler never
pulled the trigger. Raven might present some interesting arguments as to
whether "x" number of Jews and others were killed with a bullet as opposed to
Cyanide gas or starvation or exposure or whatever...he might also present some
arguments as to numbers killed at location "A" as opposed to location "B"...
he may even argue as to the total numbers killed. Would we lessen the charges
if it could be proved that "only" 9 million or 6 million or even 1 million
died? If Raven were successful in revising the numbers (downward); would
this be a valid reason to "dismiss the charges"; or would it be just an
historical reevaluation of the efficiency and effectiveness of the Nazi
killing machine?
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 78 Sat Mar 14, 1992
M.FEINS at 13:09 EST
A moment of Silence in the
Blessed Memory
of the Multi Millions of
JEWS, NON-JEWS, GAYS,
MENTALLY AND PHYSICALLY INFIRM
that were indiscriminately slaughtered
by the depraved animals of Nazi Holocaust
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 79 Sat Mar 14, 1992
C.FINK4 [Carl] at 13:38 EST
>>I read all of Mr. Raven's notes so far, and didn't see anywhere in
>>them any apologies or support for Nazism, nor did I read any
>>expression of anti-semitism.
Read more carefully, M.RUNGU. Also, use a name, please - I hate talking to
someone's mailbox label.
>>Mr. Pooh Bah,
>>Or should I call you Winnie-the-Pooh?
Actually, it should be "Ms. Pooh-Bah," if anything - and she takes the name
from Gilbert and Sullivan's MIKADO, not the children's book.
>>I find them TOPic disgusting, and offensive to anyone of
>>goodwill, and further suggest that the topic can not possibly lend
>>itself to civil discourse. As an offended subscriber to this
>>service, I am requesting that the sysops purge this obscene topic.
I find the message from which this was excerpted (number 65) to be
abhorrent, and I am offended by the poster's desire to tell me what I can and
can't discuss. If you're offended, Tony, stop reading it, but don't try to
tell others what to do. I find the TOP disgusting too, but I don't elevate my
personal reactions into law, or even GEnie regulation.
>>The sysops should be ashamed!
YOU should be ashamed of yourself - you are violating the very highest
ideals of this country by trying to close discussion. Would you also like to
close the museum at Yad Veshem - then you wouldn't have to risk hearing about
the Holocaust when in Jerusalem?
>>Perhaps you have a vested interest in supporting the illegal and
>>corrupt state of Israel.
So, M.RUNGU, still no sign of hatred or anti-Semitism?
>>...it is unquestionable that had we not been so eager to support
>>the thugs of Tel Aviv, we would not have installed the Shah of
>>Iran and trained him to oppress his people, so the Ayatollah
>>would not have come to power by overthrowing him. Thus, we would
>>not have had to arm Iraq to counter the religious fundamentalism
>>with a secular state ...
No, it is not - I question it, for one. Are you serious, or is the above
passage some sort of joke, Mr. Raven?
Mr. Raven - what do you say about the witnesses? The millions of witnesses,
Polish, German, Jew, Gypsy, Russian, Ukrainian, and others, who saw the camps?
Were they ALL lying?
Carl
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 80 Sat Mar 14, 1992
GRAFFITI at 14:28 EST
Note: 4 messages have been deleted for being personal attacks on other private
forum members. Please refrain from name-calling, and keep a civil tone in
public debate. Thank you.
-Ric/PF*NPC
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 81 Sat Mar 14, 1992
POOH.BAH at 14:46 EST
Carl: Did you really expect a Holocaust Denier to have heard any of Gilbert
and Sullivan? After all, Gilbert was a Jew....and a good Jew, too. :-) (For
anyone not familiar with G&S, the above line about Gilbert is a paraphrase
from one of the operettas about a "judge and a good judge, too.")
Raven: Let's not be going all over the place. Let's try to have some
organization. First, do you believe that there was an extermination program?
If you don't believe there was one then that is the place to start and not
with the gas chambers. There could certainly have been an extermination
program without having been gas chambers but there could not have been gas
chambers without there having been an extermination program. Therefore, the
extermination program (unless you agree that there was one) is the point to
start. After all, you are aware that the gas chambers weren't the only means
of extermination used, aren't you?
So, in your next series of messages, please answer the following simple
question: Do you believe that there was an extermination program conducted by
the Nazis against various peoples primarily Jews?
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 82 Sat Mar 14, 1992
K.GREGOVIC [Costa] at 14:53 EST
Mr Raven:
Do you think any Jews were exterminated by the Nazi's, and if so, what is your
estimate of the number killed?
Just an add on to the Jim Keegtra case in Alberta, Canada, his appeal was over
turned and a re-trial has been set. He is accused of teaching hate literature
to High school students.
PROGOGANDA: IDEAS, FACTS, OR ALLEGATIONS SPREAD DELIBERATELY TO FURTHER ONE'S
CAUSE OR TO DAMAGE AN OPPOSING CAUSE. Your comments are of a damaging variety.
PS- Do you believe in the New World Order? I think I know the answer to that
one.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 83 Sat Mar 14, 1992
GSCOTT-MOORE [Gerry] at 15:33 EST
\\\---
As M.FEINS so aptly put it, I would like to echo:
A moment of Silence in the
Blessed Memory
of the Multi Millions of
JEWS, NON-JEWS, GAYS,
MENTALLY AND PHYSICALLY INFIRM
that were indiscriminately slaughtered
by the depraved animals of Nazi Holocaust
\\\--- Gerry
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 84 Sat Mar 14, 1992
M.RUNGU at 18:55 EST
to H.WILSON11,
"Ignore the Energy Beast"? I haven't read any sci-fi since I was a pre-teen,
so I don't follow you on that one. But if you mean that Mr. Raven's messages
should be ignored and not responded to, I just don't think that will happen.
Already so much interest has been elicited from his topic that there is NO way
it will be met with by silence.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 85 Sat Mar 14, 1992
M.RUNGU at 18:58 EST
To POOH.BAH,
Thankyou for answering the questions I posed, they did help me quite a lot.
Unfortunately, I am not familiar with Butz, Leuchter, and the others. And I
did address my question to "The Raven" rather than to you. Please let HIM
answer them, thankyou.
Ok. Mr. Raven, perhaps YOU can tell me who Butz and Leuchter are, or sum up
their ideas re the holocaust.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 86 Sat Mar 14, 1992
M.RUNGU at 19:00 EST
To D.FRIEDMAN24,
I'm sorry, but I don't know what the "code phrases" are that you referred to.
I am trying to take an absolutely objective and unbiased approach to this
discussion, and taking what Mr. Raven is saying at face value. I don't want
to "read into" or "translate" his words, but just accept them as they are. Is
that unreasonable? And so far, I haven't heard him say anything anti-semitic
or pro-Nazi.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 87 Sat Mar 14, 1992
M.RUNGU at 19:01 EST
To POOH.BAH,
No, I am not Mr. Raven in disguise. If you have a look at the E-mail
directory, you will see that we are in different states altogether. Cheap
shot?
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 88 Sat Mar 14, 1992
M.RUNGU at 19:06 EST
To RTRAYNOR,
Mr. Raven has not been "raving" as you allege, and nor have I. He is just
making points, and I have merely been asking for a bare modicum of tolerance
to be displayed by those who disagree with him. HE HAS A RIGHT TO SPEAK JUST
AS EVERYBODY ELSE DOES.
Such a minimum of tolerance is in no way "exaggerated". Let me put it to you
this way. Let's say that RTRAYNOR started a topic insisting that the
holocaust happened. Then a whole mob of people launched an avalanche of
messages containing insults and invective at him, attempting to drown his
words out and intimidate him into leaving the topic altogether. I would be
the first one to come to his assistance and INSIST that he have a right to
speak out and demand that the mob show some tolerance. Wouldn't that be fair?
I know that the holocaust excites emotions and passions, but it is still an
area of history, and all areas of history, ancient or modern, experience
different interpretations. So let's hear what Mr. Raven has to say.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 89 Sat Mar 14, 1992
M.RUNGU at 19:08 EST
To M.FEINS,
I was under the impression that you wanted Mr. Raven's messages to be met with
silence, but since reading that message I see that you have put up a number of
others (messages 63, 76, 78) and no doubt there are more to come.
Please explain.
What is this "silence"? Who is meant to be silent? And are you excepted from
this new rule?
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 90 Sat Mar 14, 1992
M.RUNGU at 19:10 EST
To RTRAYNOR,
Yes, a quick glance at the e-mail directory will show that Mr. Raven and I are
two different persons. Unless of course, he has extremely long legs and arms
and can operate two different computers in two different states at the same
time!
Just because I asked for leeeeeetle bit of tolerance, I am accused of being
HIM in "disguise". Incredible paranoia........ But thanks for pointing out
the directory thing.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 91 Sat Mar 14, 1992
M.RUNGU at 19:13 EST
To C.FINK4,
Do you have something against my name? Am I supposed to change it just to
satisfy you, because you think it is a mere "address label"? Just because I
ask for a little bit of tolerance towards Mr. Raven's messages, my name is
attacked. Unreal. What's next?
I promise I won't say anything about YOUR name, Mr. FINK. I will not stoop to
that. Please let us stick to the topic under discussion, the holocaust. Mr.
Raven is trying to make some points and I think you are digressing.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 92 Sat Mar 14, 1992
M.RUNGU at 19:17 EST
To whoever criticised the question that I had posed for Mr. Raven, I'm sorry
but I can't recall your name.
I am sorry if I asked the wrong questions about the holocaust. Perhaps you
could help us all if you detail WHICH questions we are not allowed to ask, and
which questions we ARE allowed to ask. I didn't realize that a discussion of
the holocaust had boundaries or parameters that were not to be crossed or
transgressed. Strange, but I thought that every area of history was wide open
and even that ALL questions were encouraged so as to get at the historical
truth. Is the holocaust an exception to this?
If you could just give us all a list of which to ask and not ask, thankyou.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 94 Sat Mar 14, 1992
M.FEINS at 19:36 EST
A moment of Silence in the
Blessed Memory
of the Multi Millions of
JEWS, NON-JEWS, GAYS,
MENTALLY AND PHYSICALLY INFIRM
that were indiscriminately slaughtered
by the depraved animals of Nazi Holocaust
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 96 Sat Mar 14, 1992
POOH.BAH at 19:44 EST
Rungu: First, Carl Fink was pointing out to you that YOU were playing games
with MY name with your Winnie-the-Pooh comment. So, please spare us the
martyrdom regarding names. You have not been attacked....unless you consider
being questioned as to whether you and Raven are one and the same an attack.
Around these parts, that is usually considered a fair question when two
"names" have the same posting style (including multiple messages). I have to
admit that I do not believe that you and Greg are not in league. You feed him
the questions and he is supposed to answer them. Part of the reason that I
believe this is that thus far you have asked only questions for which
Holocaust Deniers have pat answers. The Anne Frank part was what did
it....including you posting the false info that she was gassed when everyone
knows that she died of typhus.
Now, I love the way that you champion free speech and then ask me not to
answer your questions but to allow Greg to answer them. Me thinks that there
is a conflict there. Just because _I_ answer one of your questions does not
preclude Greg from also chimming in with a reply. So, please, stand by your
stated principles and allow me my freedom of speech.
You claim that you haven't seen anything that Greg has posted which is "pro-
Nazi." Didn't you catch his message in which he declared that Hitler was a
great man....and greater than Churchill and FDR combined? Most would consider
THAT to be pro-Nazi. What would your definition be of "pro-Nazi?"
I have already posted about Leuchter. The man is a fraud. He was not qualified
in Canada as an expert witness (I quoted the court ruling uptopic on that) and
he was criminally charged (and plea bargained) for practicing engineering
without a license. In fact, as part of the plea bargain, he is no longer allow
to distribute any reports or materials claiming to be an engineer. The
Leuchter Report does just that. Hmmm.....
What about Butz? Will, dear old Arthur is on the CS and engineering faculty of
Northwestern. Yet, he attempted to write a "history" whereas Leuchter, who
does have a BA in history, attempted to write an "engineering" report. Maybe
this tells us the problem with Holocaust Denial....they have everything
backwards!
But, Butz loses all credibility on the first page of his Foreward. There he
states: "Liberal and conservative publicists, though they have very different
attitudes toward World War II and America's entry into it, and though they
squabble with each other on almost everything else, close ranks on the reality
of the 'holocaust.' [sic]" In this quote, Butz is mixing apples and oranges.
Liberal and conservative publicists also "close ranks" on the REALITY of WWII!
However, liberal and conservative publicists DO actively and loudly debate the
causes, ramifications, etc. of the Holocaust. Have you ever heard of the noisy
debate between the Intentionalists and the Functionalists?
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 101 Sat Mar 14, 1992
D.FRIEDMAN14 at 20:29 EST
86 M.RUNGU:
"I don't know what the 'code phrases are that you referred to. I am trying to
take an absolutely objective and unbiased approach to this discussion..."
Mr. Rungu: If you are truly interested in bringing such an enlightened mind
set to this discussion (as seems highly dubious at this juncture), you should
do so. Your denial of "code phrases" is hardly objective and unbiased: it
merely illustrates your ignorance. If you really care to be "absolutely
objective and unbiased," then you should ASK when you DO NOT KNOW.
This having been stated, I'll give you the first batch of "code phrase"
lexicology for free -- no request necessary.
"The Zionist-Masonic conspiracy" = "Those damn Jews, and their plot to take
over the world." (from the Russian rhetorical lexicon)
"Liquidiation" = "Murder"
"Resettlement" = "Deportation and confiscation of property"
"The Jewish-Bolshevik plot" = "Those damn Jews, and their alliance with the
Soviet Communists (even though they hate them, too)." From the Nazi
"Criminal Zionist entity" = "Israel"
"Zionist thugs" = "Israelis, especially their leaders"
Even the least-educated student of history (someone like yourself, for
instance), should be aware of the enormously powerful role played by
propaganda and euphemism.
The world -- especially the Russians and the Nazis, and to a (relatively)
lesser degree, the Arabs -- has outdone itself in creating such a lexicon of
rhetorical euphemism for Jews and all our "sinister plots."
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 104 Sat Mar 14, 1992
M.FEINS at 22:10 EST
A moment of Silence in the
Blessed Memory
of the Multi Millions of
JEWS, NON-JEWS, GAYS,
MENTALLY AND PHYSICALLY INFIRM
that were indiscriminately slaughtered
by the depraved animals of Nazi Holocaust
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 105 Sat Mar 14, 1992
C.FINK4 [Carl] at 23:05 EST
>>Do you have something against my name? Am I supposed to change it
>>just to satisfy you, because you think it is a mere "address
>>label"? Just because I ask for a little bit of tolerance towards
>>Mr. Raven's messages, my name is attacked. Unreal. What's next?
Yes, quite unreal, since I didn't attack your name. If you perceived it as
an attack, I apologize. All that I meant was that M.RUNGU is probably not
your favored form of address - I doubt that people at work say, "Hey, M.RUNGU,
why don't we have pizza for lunch?" I asked that you select and use to sign
your message some more common form of address. No offense meant.
By the way, M.RUNGU, the phrase "common carrier" has a specific legal
meaning, which GEnie does not fit.
>> ...I have as much _right_ to post my views as anyone!
Tony, you certainly do, and I didn't mean to imply otherwise. On the other
hand, I have the right to disagree vehemently - and I do.
Again - those who are too offended to participate can simply...not
participate. Those who feel strong enough to answer these vile, despicable
lies, can and will do so. By closing debate, GEnie would be giving the
impression that the Deniers have some sort of secrets that the Powers That Be
cannot bear to have publicized, exactly the impression the Deniers want to
give. By letting legitimate experts like POOH.BAH debunk them, you hurt them
far more.
Ah, Dov, we meet again. Read the above paragraph - your attempt at
supression only helps the Deniers. On the other hand, you are correct, the
Constitution does not directly apply here - GEnie can post what it
collectively pleases.
As I mentioned uptopic, I'm a member of the ACLU. Yes, I would let the KKK
or the Nazi Party have a forum here. I truly believe that supressing ideas is
both evil and ineffective.
Carl
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 109 Sun Mar 15, 1992
D.FRIEDMAN14 at 01:05 EST
I repeat here (more or less) some E-mail that I sent Tony (TR) yesterday.
About a year ago, the Asian History professor at my school, with whom I work
closely, but who knows virtually nothing about Judaism, requested that our
library eliminate from its collection its copies of the infamous "Protocols of
the Elders of Zion." Our Jewish chaplain, whose opinion I supported, insisted
that the books should stay. The reason for this, quite simply, was that it is
better to have the evil out here in broad daylight for all to see, rather than
ignoring it, and letting it work its insidious way through the dark.
Rebbe:
In nearly all cases I would defer to the good judgment of the Rebbe: in this
one, however, I cannot. Better to let the animals spew their poison in
public, than to drive them into underground lairs; better to let the people
see for themselves the evil than tojust to hear about it.
NOBODY TEACHES ABOUT THE HORRORS OF ANTI-SEMITISM BETTER THAN ANTI-SEMITES
THEMSELVES!!!!!
Tuvia David ben-Rafel ha-Kohen Friedman
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 111 Sun Mar 15, 1992
H.WILSON11 at 01:28 EST
It's in the Sci-Fi RT, not any writings.
And, yes, I think you're correct in saying that people will respond to
Raven's ravings>sigh>
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 112 Sun Mar 15, 1992
POOH.BAH at 01:50 EST
Raven: I'm afraid that my last question to you might have gotten lost in the
jumble of the "should this topic exist" discussion. Therefore, let me repeat
it here.
Do you believe that there was a Nazi program before or during WWII to
exterminate various peoples, in particular the Jews?
As I stated before but will paraphrase here, a discussion of the gas chambers
would be putting the cart before the horse if your answer to the above
question is in the negative since there can't be gas chambers without the
extermination program but there could be an extermination program without the
gas chambers. Therefore, if your answer is in the negative to the above
question, it would behoove us to discuss the extermination program first.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 113 Sun Mar 15, 1992
POOH.BAH at 01:51 EST
Raven: As an afterthought, I should probably state that I have evidence that
there was an extermination program AND that gas chambers did, in fact, exist.
Therefore, I would answer in the positive to the question that I asked you.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 114 Sun Mar 15, 1992
G.RAVEN at 01:56 EST
I would like to take a brief moment to thank whoever handles things around
here (GEnie?) for retitling this topic, for their even-handed description,
and for allowing this exchange of ideas. Now if I could only figure out why
GEnie gives me 2 carriage returns when I request two!
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 115 Sun Mar 15, 1992
G.RAVEN at 01:56 EST
To Dave Friedman (and J.Weiler4)--- First of all, you have made an
unsupportable assumption, that being that there are 6 million "missing" Jews.
In fact, the number of Jews that cannot be accounted for is somewhere around
500,000, or roughly 11 percent of the Jewish population that remained in the
territories occupied by Germany during the war. By way of comparison,
somewhere around 12 percent of the Jews in the occupied territories who were
never molested by the Nazis (that is, never captured, arrested, etc.) died of
natural causes. Thus, during the war years, the number of natural deaths in
the Jewish community in occupied Europe was roughly equal to the number of
ALL the missing Jews who were captured by the Nazis. --- By the way, roughly
80 percent of the Jews in the occupied territories were never molested by the
Nazis, and this figure is in addition to the many many thousands who
emigrated. --- Therefore, the answer to your question is: "Nothing happened to
them."
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 116 Sun Mar 15, 1992
G.RAVEN at 01:57 EST
To Pooh.bah --- Were Jews executed or exterminated just for being Jewish? It
is possible that there were some executions of Jews as Jews by the
Einsatzgruppen, just as there were many MANY atrocities against Germans
before, during, and after WWII, just because they were German. The
Einsatzgruppen, which only operated for a short period of time, was in charge
of controlling occupied areas in the east between the period of time when the
lands were occupied and that time when a provisional government could be set
up. Communist-inspired partisans initiated guerilla warfare, which almost
guarantees civilian casualties ... much like the Vietnamese casualties at the
hands of American soldiers. Although less than ideal, there were outrages on
BOTH sides, and a few executions here and there is a far cry from mass
extermination.
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 118 Sun Mar 15, 1992
G.RAVEN at 01:57 EST
To D.Kaufmann1 --- The so-called "confession" of Rudolf Hoess would be flawed
if one was only holding against it the errors it contains. However, the fact
that it was extracted by torture invalidates the entire matter. Also, you
might be interested to know that in America (and Germany, too, I believe),
even confessions must be proven to be accurate. During the War Crimes trials,
jurisprudences was out the window, and the resulting kangaroo court paid
scant attention to niceties such as justice. Looking at it another way, if
this so-called confession was not extracted by torture, then how do you
explain the many errors; and if it was extracted by torture (or forged in
whole or in part), why should it have any credence at all?
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 119 Sun Mar 15, 1992
G.RAVEN at 01:58 EST
To Pooh.bah --- You know as well as I do that the Balfour Declaration calls
for a homeland for the Jews, NOT a Jewish state, and it specifically says
that this homeland not come at the expense of the people already in
Palestine. This is a far cry from a "green light" to move into Palestine and
start slaughtering Arabs. Furthermore, one might ask why the British, one of
the most imperialistic groups ever, have the right to dictate to the
Palestinians what to do with their lands, their borders, etc. The fact that
the Balfour Declaration was not enough for Zionists to get what they wanted
is proved by the fact that they helped start WWII in order to further their
drive toward Palestine, and committed many atrocities against the Germans,
the Arabs, the British, and probably others, along the way.
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Category 15, Topic 4
Message 120 Sun Mar 15, 1992
G.RAVEN at 01:58 EST
To Pooh.bah --- I know I have something somewhere about the 1945 forensic
test, I just can't put my hands on it at the moment. However, even without
referring to it I believe I am safe in saying that you have misrepresented
it, and that this test does NOT show that there were mass gassings at
Birkenau (site of Krema II). --- And as for a a court case "proving" that
Zuendel knew he was spreading lies, that is of course ridiculous. As you must
know, Zuendel believes there was no Holocaust. To say that a jury found him
guilty of not believing is to tell us that the members of the jury were mind-
readers (albeit poor ones!). Zuendel's trial was a typical show trial in the
Soviet mold.
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Category 15, Topic 4
Message 121 Sun Mar 15, 1992
G.RAVEN at 01:59 EST
To Tony (TR) --- I understand how one might find Holocaust revisionism
distressing, but look at it from my point of view, if you can. I, as an
intelligent and caring person, honestly and truly feel that the Holocaust
never happened. Therefore, all the Germans who were murdered after the war,
and all the Germans who were brutally mistreated after the war, and all the
Germans who continue to be maligned since the war, are all innocent victims
of a hoax. This arouses my compassion. And because the spectre of the
Holohoax is yet before us, I can still do something to right this almost
immeasurable wrong.
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Category 15, Topic 4
Message 122 Sun Mar 15, 1992
M.BURHANS1 [Mike Burhans] at 02:25 EST
M.RUNGU/G.RAVEN (If you aren't the same person, you are acting in concert,
they good cop/bad cop interaction, identical posting style, and identiacal
catch-phrasing make obvious this is a scripted exchange)
My father liberated several camps, none of the nig ones, he saw what
happned. I personaly know 4 Holocaust surviros, 2 from Ashwitz. I know what
happened.
there is literally TONS of evicinde. You on the pother hand have yet to
provide ANYTHING more than sweeping denails, and shouts of "is not is not is
not". Prove your poinsts of shut up.
BW Remember 2 years ago the "Insititute for historical Review" the mouthpeice
ofe the WAR/ANC anti-holocaust campaign had advertised they would pay $10
million to anyone who could prove the holocaust happened.?
Several people did just that. They, usieng your technique merely shouted,
it's not true. whereupon they took the IHR to federal court and sued.
after reviewing all the arguments and facts on all sides, the Courts said
that the plaintifs had unarguably proved the hlocaust was an historical fact
which no ration person could deny. how do you explain that away? Are you
going to declare that the "Zionists" hold our courts hostage?
Mike Burhans [M.BURHANS1]
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Category 15, Topic 4
Message 123 Sun Mar 15, 1992
POOH.BAH at 02:40 EST
Raven: It is interesting that you perpetrate the defense that Christie used in
the Zundel trial (i.e. that the jury can't read a man's mind and, therefore,
cannot know if Zundel knew he was spreading lies). The problem with that
reasoning is that it was proven in court that both the Holocaust historians
AND the Holocaust Deniers believe certain portions of the pamphlet that was
being disseminated (and resulted in the trial) to be false. Much of the
pamphlet depended upon the work of Rassinier and even Weber testified to
Rassinier's shortcomings. For instance, Weber agreed that Harwood (the
pseudonym of the author of the pamphlet) was wrong on the numbers of Jews
exterminated and stated that these errors were derived from Rassinier.
You must remember that the trial was not whether Zundel does or does not
believe the Holocaust but, rather, whether it was reasonable to expect Zundel
to know that the pamphlet did contain lies. After all, in that pamphlet, to
"prove" the numbers killed, Harwood/Verrall depended upon some very strange
figures. For instance, he included the Jews in Turkey after WWII to "prove"
that there were many Jews left alive in Europe. Now, it doesn't take a
historian or genius to know that Turkey is NOT in Europe and, therefore, these
numbers make his argument meaningless.
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Category 15, Topic 4
Message 124 Sun Mar 15, 1992
POOH.BAH at 02:43 EST
Mike: You have some facts a little out of whack. The reward offered by the IHR
was for $50,000 and not $10 million. There was one person who successfully
sued...not a group. The final award was for $90,000.
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Category 15, Topic 4
Message 126 Sun Mar 15, 1992
POOH.BAH at 02:51 EST
Raven: There are many topic on this board in which to discuss Israel. Let's
try not to mix apples and oranges in this one by including it here. As far as