The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/r/raven.greg/open-letter-response.001

From: (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,talk.politics.misc,soc.culture.jewish,soc.history
Subject: Re: An Open Letter to Greg Raven (Round 5)
Date: 21 Dec 1995 14:49:06 GMT
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 214
References: <4b91ck$>
Xref: alt.revisionism:19288 alt.politics.white-power:13934 alt.politics.nationalism.white:13536 talk.politics.misc:143801 soc.culture.jewish:63301 soc.history:15186

In article <4b91ck$>,
(Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

> Archive/File: pub/people/r/raven.greg/raven-refuses-links
> Last-Modified: 1995/11/29
> First Published: 1995/08/24
> Mr. Raven:
> On August 8, 1995, I challenged you to provide links from the
> IHR web site to my Nizkor site. My challenge began with the
> following paragraph:
>  As President and Chief Executive Officer of the Institute for
>  Historical Review, Mr. Raven, you operate the IHR's WWW
>  site,, as a focalpoint for the
>  dissemination of neo-Nazi Holocaust denial propaganda.
> Your response to that paragraph follows:
>    "Just about everything about this paragraph, the first in 
>    McVay’s 'open letter,' is inaccurate. To save space, I will 
>    deal only with the substantive falsehoods.
>    First, I am not president and/or CEO of the Institute for 
>    Historical Review, as the IHR has no president and/or CEO."
>    (Raven, "Reply")
> Mr. Raven, perhaps you will explain the following information,
> which, I am advised, appeared in the July, 1995 "IHR Update,
> Number 2 (July 1995)," on page 2, in an article called "Thank
> you, Tom:"
>    "In March the corporate Board of Directors appointed 
>    Mark Weber as the new IHR Director, and Greg Raven as 
>    the new chief executive officer and corporate President."
> Is this citation correct, Mr. Raven? If not, why does an
> official publication of the IHR include this statement, when
> you claim that "...the IHR has no president and/or CEO?"

Yes, the information is correct, and there is no contradiction. You simply
do not understand what you are reading. At any rate, none of this has the
least bearing on the topic at hand: Show me or draw me a Nazi gas chamber.

> According to a nexis search of the corporate registration, 
> Thomas J Marcellus was listed as _president_ as of 2/21/95,
> and the office was registered at: 1650 Babcock, Costa Mesa, 
> California, 92627. Was that information correct, Mr. Raven,
> as of February 21, 1995, or is it incorrect? If it is correct,
> please explain why you stated: "...the IHR has no president 
> and/or CEO?" If it is incorrect, please explain why incorrect
> data (i.e. that the IHR has a president) was provided to the
> corporate registrar.

The information you present is incomplete, so I cannot comment on it. I
will, however, restate that the IHR has no president and/or CEO.

> According to Articles of Amendment filed with the Office of
> the Secretary of State of Texas on July 10, 1995, for the
> Legion for the Survival of Freedom," you are the President and
> Mark Weber is the Secretary. At the time you signed that
> document, the "principle and normal place of business of the
> corporation is in Orange County, California," where the IHR is
> located. A May 15, 1995 article in the Los Angeles Times (A3)
> describes the Legion as the "parent company" of the IHR. 
> Is that correct, Mr. Raven?

Of course.

> Also, I direct your attention to the words of Ernst Zuendel,
> who, in his Power Letter #1, says:
>    "We want to thank Greg Raven - new head of the IHR - 
>    for allowing us to be on his Website on a temporary 
>    basis."
> Is Mr. Zuendel lying, Mr. Raven?


> With regard to my statement that you operate the IHR's Web
> site, you replied:
>    "Second, while it is true that I make available some IHR 
>    material on the World Wide Web, I do so not in my official 
>    capacity with the IHR, but rather I do it on my own time, 
>    and I finance it out of my own monies." (Ibid.)
> Let's examine that statement in light of the February 1995
> "IHR Update," which called for funds to support "your" web
> site, Mr. Raven:
>    Getting IHR on the Internet has so far been entirely Greg Raven's
>    private spare time project.  Because of the remarkable interest
>    generated by this small sample of IHR materials, we are
>    seeking funds to make this an IHR priority, so that
>    eventually just about everything that's appeared in 14 years of
>    The Journal of Historical Review will be available on the
>    Internet.
> The newsletter included a fundraising letter, and a form which
> included a box which could be checked by those wishing to
> donate to the IHR Internet Project. In short, the IHR has
> taken active steps to fund "your" web site, Mr. Raven.

Not true. The IHR has taken steps to launch its own Web site. In the mean
time, my site is the best source for IHR materials.

> In addition, as a page on the Nizkor Web points out: 
> It is important to note that this fundraiser was not an isolated
> incident.The IHR's December fundraising letter stated that one of 
> their five goals for 1995 was to:
>    Make IHR materials available to millions around the 
>    world on the Internet 'information super-highway,' so 
>    that researchers and other interested persons will have 
>    fast, around-the-clock access to the best revisionist 
>    materials.
> Given that it's been well over nine months since the call for funds 
> was first sounded, one wonders when you, Mr. Raven, will stop 
> claiming that you " it out of my own monies"?

I will stop claiming that I finance my Web site out of my own monies as
soon as someone else takes over that financing. Until then, it is a true
statement. I have never received any money from the IHR or anyone else to
help pay for my Web site / Internet account.

> In addition, Mr. Raven, your own IHR Update #2, July 1995,
> includes an article on page 4 which reads in part:
>    Every computer user with access to [the web] can quickly  
>    access IHR materials.
> Many of us who oppose the viewpoint you represent within your
> Web pages have asked you repeatedly to provide links from the
> IHR's site to the Nizkor Project. (I first did that on the
> 28th. of May, 1995, and I believe that others began making
> this request of you long before that.)

If you and others connected with you were interested in discussing the
issues, there would be no problem with cross-linking. However, as you and
others have attacked me and others on a personal basis, and because you
continue to do so, I am not interested in cross-linking. You have only
yourself to blame.

> In your response to my first open letter, Mr. Raven, you
> included the following assertion with regard to Jamie
> McCarthy's Web pages:
>    "I have not visited McCarthy’s Web site in some time, i
>    but the last time I did, one of the first things I read 
>    was a misquote of something I wrote, that McCarthy further 
>    mischaracterized in order to cast aspersions on me."
>    (Ibid.)
> ...and this comment about the Nizkor Web and archives:
>    "Thus, although McVay attempts to present himself as being 
>    interested in a free exchange of positions, this posting 
>    clearly shows that he is more inclined to personal attacks 
>    on revisionists. In his open letter, he even includes a URL 
>    (Universal Resource Locator -- a form of Internet address)
>    for a file that can only be considered a personal attack on 
>    me, and visitors to his site will find other files personally 
>    (and inaccurately) attacking me and others." (Ibid.)
> In the first instance, Mr. McCarthy has repeatedly demanded
> that you cite the specific "misquote of something" you wrote,
> and yet you, having accused him of deliberate
> misrepresentation of your words, have thus far failed to
> provide evidence of the truth of your accusation. 

From my exchanges with Mr McCarthy, I have learned that he is in no way
interested in rational debate, and that he delights in diverting the
discussion away from the topic at hand, as you often do. Therefore,
responding to him is usually pointless and counterproductive.

> For one who prattles about "casting aspersions" on others Mr.
> Raven, you seem strangely reluctant to prove your case by
> providing a URL for the offending text. Why is that, Mr.
> Raven? Could it be that you are being less than honest? Could
> it be that no such misrepresentation exists on Mr. McCarthy's
> Web pages?

Because it is off-topic. Show me or draw me a Nazi gas chamber. THIS is
the topic, not the corporate structure of the IHR, who pays my bills, what
kind of a guy Hitler was or wasn't, what I do in my spare time, etc. All
of these items and many more have been used in personal attacks on me.

> The file also includes the flat assertion that files contained
> on your site contain lies about the Holocaust, which is
> factually correct. (On July 19, 1995, Jamie McCarthy noted 15
> separate falsehoods on Mr. Raven's web pages, providing both
> URL's and complete context; on August 4th. Mr. McCarthy
> followed-up with quick explanations as to why each was false.
> It goes without saying that Mr. Raven has not defended these
> 15 falsehoods.)

Typically, I no longer read anything that Mr. McCarthy has to say for the
above-stated reasons. Again, this is his own fault. If he, and you, could
only stick to the topic at hand, this discussion would be more less
acrimonious and much more productive and enlightening. But perhaps that is
what you fear.

Greg Raven

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