The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/r/raven.greg/1996/raven.0496


From ihrgreg@kaiwan.com Mon Apr  1 09:56:15 PST 1996
Article: 29339 of alt.revisionism
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From: Greg Raven 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: Sat, 30 Mar 1996 23:40:54 +0000
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
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To: Daniel Keren 

Daniel Keren wrote:
> 
> Ceacaa  wrote:
> 
> # Mark, I agree.  But tell us, how many holes are on the
> # roof today?
> 
> Well, revisionazis don't seem to be able to agree, they
> give figures ranging between 0 and 3.


I think Ceacaa knows the revisionist position ... he is asking for the 
anti-revisionist position. How many holes do YOU believe are in the roof 
today?

-- 
Greg Raven (ihrgreg@kaiwan.com)
PO Box 10545, Costa Mesa, CA 92627
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg



From ihrgreg@kaiwan.com Thu Apr  4 07:20:27 PST 1996
Article: 29799 of alt.revisionism
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From: Greg Raven 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Irving and the '4 million' figure
Date: Wed, 03 Apr 1996 17:21:36 +0000
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 33
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To: ihrgreg@kaiwan.com

A few days ago, someone posted a message here claiming that British 
historian David Irving had said in an interview that 4 million Jews died 
in concentration camps during WWII. This claim was first made soon after 
the interview, and I asked Irving what he had actually said. He at that 
time told me that he had specifically referred to deaths from all 
causes.

In response to the earlier posting claiming to quote Irving as stating 
there were 4 million Jewish deaths in Nazi concentration camps, someone 
else wrote me to say that I was wrong, and that the transcript proved 
it.

Since then, I have had a chance to look at the transcript, which someone 
e-mailed me (apparently from the Nizkor site). The transcript clearly 
shows that I was indeed correct in interpreting what Irving had told me.

Leaving aside for the momenth the question of the accuracy of this 
transcript, here is the revelent portion of the interview as presented 
in the file e-mailed me:

> CASEY: What is your estimate of the number of Jews who died at the hands of Hitler's regime in the war years? What number - and I don't like using this word - what number would you concede were killed in concentration camps?
> IRVING: I think, like any scientist, I'd have to give you a range of figures and I'd have to say a minimum of one million, which is a monstrous crime, and a maximum of about four million, depending on what you mean by killed. If putting people into a concentration camps where they die of barbarity and typhus and epidemics is killing then I would say the four million figure because, undoubtedly, huge numbers did die in the camps in the conditions that were very evident at the end of the war.
> . . .  It depends on definitions . . . If you include everybody who died by whatever means, then you could probably go as high as four million but an awful lot of people died in World War Two, about twenty or thirty millions Russians and quite a lot of English people and not a few Australians as well. It was limited just to the Jewish community.

Clearly, Irving's first answer was in response to the confusing compound 
question of the reviewer. Later, Irving elaborates on his answer, and it 
becomes obvious that he is referring to all Jewish deaths, from all 
causes.

--
Greg Raven (ihrgreg@kaiwan.com)
PO Box 10545, Costa Mesa, CA 92627
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg


From ihrgreg@kaiwan.com Thu Apr  4 07:20:27 PST 1996
Article: 29800 of alt.revisionism
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From: Greg Raven 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: Wed, 03 Apr 1996 17:29:30 +0000
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <3162B57A.3F81@kaiwan.com>
References:  <316036e1.3717671@news.srv.ualberta.ca>  <3161A619.4D96@kaiwan.com> <4jugq5$3kq@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU>
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To: "Richard J. Green" 

Richard J. Green wrote:
> 
> In article <3161A619.4D96@kaiwan.com>, Greg Raven   wrote:
> 
>         I think Ceacaa's (sp?) theory is interesting, that being that whoever
>         demolished the morgue needed to vent the gasses from the explosive
>         charges placed on the pillars.
> 
> Please do elaborate.  What gasses are you talking about?  Why is it
> necessary to vent them?

The gasses (atmospheric air) from inside the morgue, that would be forced out in the event 
of an explosion.

>         Finally, records of coal deliveries to the crematories indicate that
>         there is no possible way the crematories could have cremated more
>         corpses than are accounted for by other means. That is, it is
>         virtually impossible from a thermodynamics standpoint, for the
>         amount of coal delivered to the crematories to have cremated not
>         only their "normal" workload, but also the additional hundreds of
>         thousands of bodies that would have been created by a program of
>         mass extermination.
> 
> Ah, perhaps Mr. Raven is prepared to educate us about thermodynamics.  Since
> we all know that the combustion of a human body is an exothermic
> process, I'm afraid that you'll have to rely on kinetics rather than
> thermodynamics to make your argument.  Unfortunately, for your unfounded
> opinions, no such argument has been made.

This is not quite correct. Carlo Mattogno's excellent book, "Auschwitz, the end of a 
legend" deals at some length with the amount of coal needed to cremate bodies, and the 
amount of coal available at Birkenau.

--
Greg Raven (ihrgreg@kaiwan.com)
PO Box 10545, Costa Mesa, CA 92627
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg


From ihrgreg@kaiwan.com Thu Apr  4 07:20:28 PST 1996
Article: 29801 of alt.revisionism
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From: Greg Raven 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Irving and the '4 million' figure
Date: Wed, 03 Apr 1996 17:23:03 +0000
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <3162B3F7.7147@kaiwan.com>
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To: ihrgreg@kaiwan.com

A few days ago, someone posted a message here claiming that British 
historian David Irving had said in an interview that 4 million Jews died 
in concentration camps during WWII. This claim was first made soon after 
the interview, and I asked Irving what he had actually said. He at that 
time told me that he had specifically referred to deaths from all 
causes.

In response to the earlier posting claiming to quote Irving as stating 
there were 4 million Jewish deaths in Nazi concentration camps, someone 
else wrote me to say that I was wrong, and that the transcript proved 
it.

Since then, I have had a chance to look at the transcript, which someone 
e-mailed me (apparently from the Nizkor site). The transcript clearly 
shows that I was indeed correct in interpreting what Irving had told me.

Leaving aside for the momenth the question of the accuracy of this 
transcript, here is the revelent portion of the interview as presented 
in the file e-mailed me:

> CASEY: What is your estimate of the number of Jews who died at the hands of Hitler's regime in the war years? What number - and I don't like using this word - what number would you concede were killed in concentration camps?
> IRVING: I think, like any scientist, I'd have to give you a range of figures and I'd have to say a minimum of one million, which is a monstrous crime, and a maximum of about four million, depending on what you mean by killed. If putting people into a concentration camps where they die of barbarity and typhus and epidemics is killing then I would say the four million figure because, undoubtedly, huge numbers did die in the camps in the conditions that were very evident at the end of the war.
> . . .  It depends on definitions . . . If you include everybody who died by whatever means, then you could probably go as high as four million but an awful lot of people died in World War Two, about twenty or thirty millions Russians and quite a lot of English people and not a few Australians as well. It was limited just to the Jewish community.

Clearly, Irving's first answer was in response to the confusing compound 
question of the reviewer. Later, Irving elaborates on his answer, and it 
becomes obvious that he is referring to all Jewish deaths, from all 
causes.

--
Greg Raven (ihrgreg@kaiwan.com)
PO Box 10545, Costa Mesa, CA 92627
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg


From ihrgreg@kaiwan.com Thu Apr  4 07:20:30 PST 1996
Article: 29821 of alt.revisionism
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From: Greg Raven 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Irving's book on Goebbels cancelled
Date: Wed, 03 Apr 1996 22:07:28 +0000
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <3162F6A0.22AF@kaiwan.com>
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To: ihrgreg@kaiwan.com

>From  USA Today


> 04/04/96 - 12:03 AM ET
> 
> PEOPLE
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> Irving's 'Goebbels' to be canceled
> 
> St. Martin's Press is cancelling the British historian David Irving's
> Goebbels: Mastermind of the Third Reich, which was scheduled to hit
> bookstores in mid-May. A Publishers Weekly advance review called the book
> "repellent'' and detected "the language of camouflaged admiration.'' An
> upcoming Library Journal editorial notes that Irving was convicted in 1991
> in Germany of defaming Holocaust victims. The book has already been
> published in England.



-- 
Greg Raven (ihrgreg@kaiwan.com)
PO Box 10545, Costa Mesa, CA 92627
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg


From ihrgreg@kaiwan.com Thu Apr  4 07:20:30 PST 1996
Article: 29825 of alt.revisionism
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From: Greg Raven 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 1996 22:11:37 +0000
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 43
Message-ID: <3161A619.4D96@kaiwan.com>
References:   <315DC686.553B@kaiwan.com> <316036e1.3717671@news.srv.ualberta.ca> 
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To: Daniel Keren 

Daniel Keren wrote:
> 
> So, Raven, how many holes do *you* think are in the
> roof today? And, do you think some of them are holes
> torn by the explosion?

As to the number of holes, let's leave that for later. Having seen photos of the holes, I 
do not believe they were torn by the explosion. I think Ceacaa's (sp?) theory is 
interesting, that being that whoever demolished the morgue needed to vent the gasses from 
the explosive charges placed on the pillars.

> That's one question; another question is, of course, why does a
> "work camp" need so many huge "morgues", and so many cremation
> furnaces?

We have known for a long time, now, that there were fewer crematories at Birkenau compared 
to the population than there were at other camps that no serious scholars now calling 
"extermination camps." Therefore, the number of crematories at Birkenau was not out of the 
ordinary.

Furthermore, we know that the number of crematories at Birkenau was decided on the basis 
of the terrible typhus epidemic at that camp. Further, we know that this epidemic created 
so much work for the crematories that there was no "extra" capacity left over for the 
oft-claimed extermination program. None of this is new.

Finally, records of coal deliveries to the crematories indicate that there is no possible 
way the crematories could have cremated more corpses than are accounted for by other 
means. That is, it is virtually impossible from a thermodynamics standpoint, for the 
amount of coal delivered to the crematories to have cremated not only their "normal" 
workload, but also the additional hundreds of thousands of bodies that would have been 
created by a program of mass extermination.

When faced with the fact that there are no orders for a program of mass gassing, no 
documents showing that even one homicidal Nazi gas chamber was built, no building that has 
even been proved by forensic means to have operated as a Nazi gas chamber, and no large 
numbers of "missing" Jews who would have been the victims of that extermination program, 
one is forced to the conclusion that there was no program of mass extermination of Jews by 
the Nazis at Birkenau or elsewhere.

-- 
Greg Raven (ihrgreg@kaiwan.com)
PO Box 10545, Costa Mesa, CA 92627
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg


From ihrgreg@kaiwan.com Thu Apr  4 17:51:36 PST 1996
Article: 29872 of alt.revisionism
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From: Greg Raven 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 1996 09:32:32 +0000
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <3160F430.625E@kaiwan.com>
References:  <4jm626$pt0@newsbf02.news.aol.com>  <31MAR96.19492065.0034@UNBVM1.CSD.UNB.CA> <4jqapd$5m2@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il>
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To: Richard Schultz 

Here's another question for you to work on:

If, as you say, the morgues at Birkenau were really gas chambers, and if 
the evidence in those morgues was so incriminating that the Germans had 
to destroy them, then why haven't the exterminationists conducted any 
thorough examinition of these morgues to prove that they were in fact 
used as gas chambers?

To put it another way, if you can prove that there were Nazi gas 
chambers for the mass murder of humans at the Birkenau camp, you can 
demolish a large part of the revisionist position on the Holocaust 
extermination myth. If Holocaust revisionists are so clearly wrong, why 
not just conduct the thorough examination and be rid of them?

--
Greg Raven (ihrgreg@kaiwan.com)
PO Box 10545, Costa Mesa, CA 92627
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg


From ihrgreg@kaiwan.com Mon Apr  8 06:55:08 PDT 1996
Article: 30151 of alt.revisionism
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From: Greg Raven 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: Sun, 07 Apr 1996 08:16:55 +0000
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 39
Message-ID: <316779F7.7AEA@kaiwan.com>
References:  <316036e1.3717671@news.srv.ualberta.ca>  <3161A619.4D96@kaiwan.com>  <4k2iaq$go8@wi.combase.com>
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To: ihrgreg@kaiwan.com

> dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
> 
> >Greg Raven  writes:
> 
> ># As to the number of holes, let's leave that for later.
> 
> >Meaning, you don't know.

No, meaning that the question was directed to Mark V.A., and he has yet to answer. I wanted 
to let Ceacaa and MVA settle this between themselves before I give my opinion.

> ># Having seen photos of the holes, I do not believe they were torn
> ># by the explosion.
> 
> >Post them, so we'll know what you're talking about.

It is difficult for me to do so right now, but I will attempt it later.

> ># I think Ceacaa's (sp?) theory is interesting, that being that
> ># whoever demolished the morgue needed to vent the gasses from
> ># the explosive charges placed on the pillars.
> 
> >Moronic drivel! Drilling these holes in the ceiling would
> >make the explosives much less efficient, as much of the
> >force of the explosion would go out through the holes,
> >instead of being directed at the structure.

>From  what I know about explosives, the charges placed against the pillars would have been 
shaped charges. Shaped charges would direct their force against the pillars directly to 
effect destruction, rather than rely on indirect gas pressure. In such a circumstance, it 
might be desireabxle to vent the resulting "waste" gas pressure safely through holes hacked 
into the roof, rather than let it seek its own exit, to the possible detriment of other 
nearby structures and/or people, or simply to allow the roof to cave in, rather than blowing 
it up and all over the place.

-- 
Greg Raven (ihrgreg@kaiwan.com)
PO Box 10545, Costa Mesa, CA 92627
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg


From ihrgreg@kaiwan.com Mon Apr  8 06:55:09 PDT 1996
Article: 30152 of alt.revisionism
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From: Greg Raven 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: Sun, 07 Apr 1996 08:20:43 +0000
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 11
Message-ID: <31677ADB.30F3@kaiwan.com>
References:  <4k2eu8$74p@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4k3p4n$l1g@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU> <4k434l$b0r@wi.combase.com> 
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To: Mark Van Alstine 

Your replies are apparently coming through in a truncated condition. I search them in 
vain for an answer to Ceacaa's question about the number of holes currently in the roof 
of the morgue. 

What is your answer, please?


-- 
Greg Raven (ihrgreg@kaiwan.com)
PO Box 10545, Costa Mesa, CA 92627
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg


From ihrgreg@kaiwan.com Mon Apr  8 06:55:10 PDT 1996
Article: 30157 of alt.revisionism
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From: Greg Raven 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: Fri, 05 Apr 1996 13:38:52 +0000
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 61
Message-ID: <3165226C.2E21@kaiwan.com>
References:   <315DC686.553B@kaiwan.com> <316036e1.3717671@news.srv.ualberta.ca>  <3161A619.4D96@kaiwan.com> <199604052000.MAA16330@rbi.rbi.com>
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To: Mark Van Alstine 

Instead of answering the simple question "how many holes are there in the roof of the 
morgue," Mark Van Alstine wrote:
> 
> (A copy of this message has also been posted to the following newsgroups:
> alt.revisionism)
> 
> In article <3161A619.4D96@kaiwan.com>, ihrgreg@kaiwan.com wrote:
> 
> > Daniel Keren wrote:
> > >
> > > So, Raven, how many holes do *you* think are in the
> > > roof today? And, do you think some of them are holes
> > > torn by the explosion?
> >
> > As to the number of holes, let's leave that for later. Having seen photos of
> > the holes, I do not believe they were torn by the explosion. I think Ceacaa's
> > (sp?) theory is interesting, that being that whoever demolished the morgue
> > needed to vent the gasses from the explosive charges placed on the pillars.
> 
> Mr. Raven, why would one one want to "vent the gasses" from the explosion?
> And if they did, why go to all the effort of cutting small holes in the
> roof when one could simply leave the door to the gas chamber open? And why
> do you say the explosives were placed on the pillars? I seem to recall
> that someone relatyed that one of the pillars if still (partially?)
> intact.

Not being a demolition expert, I am only speculating that they might wish to vent the 
gasses from the interior explosions for reasons of safety. As for the charges on the 
pillars, I understood Ceacaa's (sp?) point to be that the charges were placed on the 
intersection of the pillars and the roof beam, which, as we know from the post-mortem on 
the Oklahoma blast, is a good place to put explosives when demolishing a building.

> > > That's one question; another question is, of course, why does a
> > > "work camp" need so many huge "morgues", and so many cremation
> > > furnaces?
> >
> > We have known for a long time, now, that there were fewer crematories at
> > Birkenau compared to the population than there were at other camps that no
> > serious scholars now calling "extermination camps." Therefore, the number of
> > crematories at Birkenau was not out of the ordinary.
> 
> Mr. Raven! Such disingenouity. It has been known for some time now that
> the per capita cremation capacity of the crematoria at Auschwitz
> II-Birkenau far exceeded that of other camps. It far exceeded any need
> other than to dispose of the bodies of those murdered in the gas chambers
> there. No serious Holocaust scholar will refute this.

Based on the number of muffles projected per thousand recorded deaths, in 1942 Auschwitz 
had 1.14 muffles, which Buchenwald had 2.07 and Dachau had 2.43. I assume every grants 
that neither Buchenwald nor Dachau were "extermination camps." In 1943, the projected 
muffles per 1000 recorded deaths was 1.41 for Auschwitz, 1.71 for Buchenwald, and 5.45 
for Dachau. Clearly, the number of crematories not only did not "far exceed any need," it 
was well below the level found in non-"extermination camps."

But all this is getting somewhat off the point. How many holes do exterminationists such 
as yourself and Denny Karen say are currently in the roof of the morgue?

--
Greg Raven (ihrgreg@kaiwan.com)
PO Box 10545, Costa Mesa, CA 92627
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg


From ihrgreg@kaiwan.com Mon Apr  8 06:55:12 PDT 1996
Article: 30178 of alt.revisionism
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From: Greg Raven 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Irving and the '4 million' figure
Date: Sat, 06 Apr 1996 08:31:27 +0000
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 15
Message-ID: <31662BDF.64BB@kaiwan.com>
References: <3162B3A0.7E7F@kaiwan.com> <4APR199605490500@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
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To: Daniel Mittleman 

Daniel Mittleman wrote:
> 
>     It isn't clear to me why any of us cares what Irving thinks.  One, he
>     has previously been convicted of lying in his historical research, and
>     two, his statements below are represented simply as opinion -- not as
>     defendable research conclusions.

Are you saying that courts of law are the proper place for matters of history to be decided? Are you 
saying that if Irving was shown by later revelations to have been correct in the case you mention 
obliquely, that then we WOULD be worth listening to?

-- 
Greg Raven (ihrgreg@kaiwan.com)
PO Box 10545, Costa Mesa, CA 92627
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg


From ihrgreg@kaiwan.com Mon Apr  8 10:37:27 PDT 1996
Article: 30220 of alt.revisionism
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From: Greg Raven 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Irving's book on Goebbels cancelled
Date: Sun, 07 Apr 1996 10:12:14 +0000
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <316794FE.17F9@kaiwan.com>
References: <3162F6A0.22AF@kaiwan.com> <3164c2e7.18558018@news.srv.ualberta.ca> <4k2klq$ifk@elaine21.Stanford.EDU>
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To: Rich Graves 

Rich Graves wrote:
> See the David Irving web page on the IHR site. It's full of talk about
> "the historical enemy," i.e., JOOOOOOOS.
> 
> -rich

I assume you mean the IHR materials on my Web site, yes? What is the URL 
of the "David Irving Web page" to which you refer?

-- 
Greg Raven (ihrgreg@kaiwan.com)
PO Box 10545, Costa Mesa, CA 92627
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg


From ihrgreg@kaiwan.com Mon Apr  8 10:37:28 PDT 1996
Article: 30229 of alt.revisionism
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From: Greg Raven 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: Sun, 07 Apr 1996 08:02:31 +0000
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <31677697.9E1@kaiwan.com>
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To: Matt Giwer 

> dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
> 
> >Greg Raven  writes:
> 
> ># Just about everyone engaged in WWII engaged in mass murder. That
> ># is not the question. The question is whether the Nazis constructed
> ># special gas chambers for mass homicide. There are no documents
> ># that prove that.
> 
> >Yes there are, including documents that mention a "gassing
> >cellar" (vergassungskeller) and a "gas chamber" (gaskammren)
> >in the Birkenau crematoriums. But the revisionazis like
> >Greg "Hitler was a great man" Raven know this. They simply
> >continue to lie and lie.


There are plenty of books that "prove" that UFOs are visitors from outer space. If you 
really had proof, you would present it, instead of constantly resorting to attempts at 
character assassination against me.

The implication of what you have written is that you have a document that says something 
to the effect of, "Let's load the Jews into the homicidal gas chambers and kill them." 
You do not.

-- 
Greg Raven (ihrgreg@kaiwan.com)
PO Box 10545, Costa Mesa, CA 92627
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg


From ihrgreg@kaiwan.com Mon Apr  8 10:37:29 PDT 1996
Article: 30230 of alt.revisionism
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From: Greg Raven 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: Sun, 07 Apr 1996 07:56:18 +0000
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 60
Message-ID: <31677522.43F1@kaiwan.com>
References:  <4jm626$pt0@newsbf02.news.aol.com>  <31MAR96.19492065.0034@UNBVM1.CSD.UNB.CA> <4jqapd$5m2@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il> <3160F430.625E@kaiwan.com> 
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To: Mark Van Alstine 

Again attempting to skirt the question concerning the number of holes in the roof of the morgue, 
Mark Van Alstine wrote:
> 
> In article <3160F430.625E@kaiwan.com>, ihrgreg@kaiwan.com wrote:
> 
> > Here's another question for you to work on:
> >
> > If, as you say, the morgues at Birkenau were really gas chambers, and if
> > the evidence in those morgues was so incriminating that the Germans had
> > to destroy them, then why haven't the exterminationists conducted any
> > thorough examinition of these morgues to prove that they were in fact
> > used as gas chambers?
> 
> Mr. Raven, I would have assumed you were aware of the report: "A STUDY OF
> THE CYANIDE COMPOUNDS CONTENT IN THE WALLS OF THE GAS CHAMBERS IN THE
> FORMER AUSCHWITZ AND BIRKENAU CONCENTRATION CAMPS," done by the Institute
> of Forensic Research, Cracow?
> 
> Obviously you are not. Perhaps you should be? Certainly, your ability to
> discuss this issue meaningfully is severely curtailed otherwise.

Anyone familiar with this Study knows that it is ONLY a test of the residual level of cyanide 
compounds in the walls of various structures at Auschwitz. (The test results confirm the tests 
conducted earlier by American Fred Leuchter, although the Cracow Institute comes to different 
conclusions on the basis of these tests.) However, this single test is far from a thorough 
investigation. Why hasn't there been a thorough investigation?

> > To put it another way, if you can prove that there were Nazi gas
> > chambers for the mass murder of humans at the Birkenau camp, you can
> > demolish a large part of the revisionist position on the Holocaust
> > extermination myth. If Holocaust revisionists are so clearly wrong, why
> > not just conduct the thorough examination and be rid of them?
> 
> Mr. Raven, seemingly unbeknownst to you, historians and researchers HAVE
> proved, and HAVE concluded that "there were Nazi gas chambers for the mass
> murder of humans at the Birkenau camp." As your "far-fetched" *to put it
> kindly) opinions are in direct conflict with accepted history, the burden
> is upon YOU to provide the evidence and explinations that shows the Nazi
> gas chambers at Auschwitz did not exist and then how this is reconciled
> with the fact that over a million Jews were killed there.
> 
> This you, nor any other denier, has even remotely attempted.

When you say researchers have proved something, how have they done this without a thorough 
forensic examination? It proves nothing to get a bunch of people, even if they are scholars and 
researchers, to agree to something without truly studying it.

By the way, it is impossible to prove the negative of something. Why not show us or draw us a 
Nazi gas chamber, which should be easy, since historians and researchers have proved and 
concluded that there were such fantastic devices.

And don't forget, Ceacaa is still awaiting your answer on the number of holes in the roof of the 
morgue at Birkenau. If you have proved and concluded that these Nazi gas chambers existed, then 
of course you will have no problem referring to the results of the thorough examination of these 
gas chambers and letting us know how many holes there were.

-- 
Greg Raven (ihrgreg@kaiwan.com)
PO Box 10545, Costa Mesa, CA 92627
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg


From ihrgreg@kaiwan.com Sat Apr 13 18:34:16 PDT 1996
Article: 30868 of alt.revisionism
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From: Greg Raven 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 23:49:51 +0100
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 16
Message-ID: <316EDE0F.CEA@kaiwan.com>
References:  <4k2eu8$74p@newsbf02.news.aol.com> 
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To: Mark Van Alstine 

Mark Van Alstine wrote:
> Interesting then that the prisoners who helped prepare the Kremas for
> demolition  carried _dynamite_ into the Krema II: "On January 20,1945, an
> SS detatchment that had been dispatched to Aushwitz shot about 200 Jewish
> women prisoners and ordered another group of prisoners to move crates with
> dynamite to crematorium II and III. Both buildings were blown up the same
> day." (_Anatomy_, p.174.)

This is hardly a primary source. Piper (the author of this article) provides no footnote to this 
paragraph, so there is no way of knowing how he arrived at this information. In other words, 
dynamite may have been used, but that cannot be determined based on the citation above.

-- 
Greg Raven (ihrgreg@kaiwan.com)
PO Box 10545, Costa Mesa, CA 92627
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg


From ihrgreg@kaiwan.com Sat Apr 13 19:28:24 PDT 1996
Article: 30874 of alt.revisionism
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From: Greg Raven 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 23:59:20 +0100
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 52
Message-ID: <316EE048.2D5F@kaiwan.com>
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To: Daniel Keren 

Daniel Keren wrote:
> 
> I can't see why Greg "Hitler was a great man" Raven blames me
> of "character assassination". I said - and will continue to say - that
> he admires Hitler; this is evident from his text, quoted below:
> 
>  much, as we can see>
> 
>  Category 15,  Topic 4
>  Message 33        Fri Mar 13, 1992
>  G.RAVEN                      at 03:02 EST
> 
> My only concern is in going after the facts. As such, I am not
> interested in defending Adolf Hitler to my dying breath. I will say,
> however, that he was a great man ... certainly greater than
> Churchill and FDR put together, and possibly the greatest leader of
> our century, if not longer. This is not to say that he was perfect,
> but he about the best thing that could have happened to Germany.
> 
> 

Perhaps if you were not so blinded by hate and malice, you would recognize that the above statement is 
objectively true. You don't have to take my word for it ... check for yourself how many books have been 
written about Adolf Hitler. As Drew Carey joked on his show one night, when asked if he would have 
killed Hitler if he had the chance, "No, because then there would be no A&E channel."

As I explain in an article on my Web site, there are many definitions of the word great in the OED, and 
only one of them means "good." I do not think Hitler was a good person, in fact, I rarely think of him 
at all. I really don't care about Hitler ... he doesn't much interest me. As a libertarian, I probably 
would have been very uncomfortable in Nazi Germany.

My negative personal opinion of Hitler notwithstanding, it is a fact that Hitler was the only thing 
standing between Stalin and Europe. Without Hitler, all Europe would have fallen under the Soviet 
system.

History is made of nuances. It is not only "good" or "bad."

> I have also stated that he is a liar. This is also evident,
> because he said here, many times, that no documents exist
> which mention gas chambers in the Birknenau Kremas; this is a
> lie, as there are documents which mention a "gassing cellar"
> in Krema II (in which the gas chamber was underground), and
> a "gas chamber" in Krema V.

Perhaps you could be more specific. If you are referring to the document to which I think you are 
referring, it does mention a "gassing cellar", but it does NOT say that this was in Crematory II.

-- 
Greg Raven (ihrgreg@kaiwan.com)
PO Box 10545, Costa Mesa, CA 92627
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg


From ihrgreg@kaiwan.com Fri Apr 19 10:42:39 PDT 1996
Article: 31930 of alt.revisionism
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From: Greg Raven 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 18:43:27 +0100
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 44
Message-ID: <31767F3F.7C7@kaiwan.com>
References:   <4jsnlo$r9p@wi.combase.com> <31618F8D.1086@kaiwan.com> <199604092128.RAA07778@panix2.panix.com>
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To: Kevin Filan 

Kevin Filan wrote:
> 
> In article <31618F8D.1086@kaiwan.com>, Greg Raven   wrote:
> 
> >Just about everyone engaged in WWII engaged in mass murder. That is not
> the question. The >question is whether the Nazis constructed special gas
> chambers for mass homicide. There are >no documents that prove that. If
> there were, you would present them, instead of arguing over >the roof of
> one of the morgues at Birkenau.
> 
>         Mr. Raven: I seem to recall an order form for air-tight, steel
> doors to be installed in the shower at one camp.  It was introduced into
> a war crimes trial -- I used to have an electronic copy, but, alas, my
> old account is no more.
> 
>         I do not think that a forger would be likely to fake such a
> document (why do that when you could just as easily forge a letter from
> Hitler stating "Dear Kommandant: Congratulations on gassing x Jews last
> week, signed, Der Fuhrer?").  Given that, I would ask:
> 
>         1) If this document is genuine, can you imagine any reason for
> putting an air-tight steel door (complete with gaskets to create a seal,
> as I recall) on a shower?
> 
>         2) If this document is not genuine, can you give us some clues as
> to who forged it and why they forged something so obscure, rather than a
> more straightforward incriminating statement?

Thank you for contacting me. I think you are correct about the forgery -- a more damaging 
document would be more in order.

However, I believe the document to which you are referring is an order for an air-tight 
door for a morgue. According to Robert Faurisson, it was fairly common practice during 
the war to prepare rooms such as this for use as air-raid shelters, which included the 
installation of air-tight doors.

Looking at it another way, certainly if the Nazis had been making gigantic mass murder 
gassing chambers, the likes of which the world has never seen, there would be more 
evidence as to their actions than an order for an air-tight door or two, don't you think?

--
Greg Raven (ihrgreg@kaiwan.com)
PO Box 10545, Costa Mesa, CA 92627
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg


From ihrgreg@kaiwan.com Sat Apr 20 15:03:52 PDT 1996
Article: 32102 of alt.revisionism
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From: Greg Raven 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Zyklone B - Unlikely Agent
Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 14:08:46 +0100
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <3178E1DE.2743@kaiwan.com>
References: <316d146d.4061484@news.pacificnet.net> <316e661d.5389680@news.pacificnet.net> <14APR199607151245@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <3173a37c.2359523@news.pacificnet.net> <31788217.4109@kaiwan.com> <199604201859.OAA09447@vixa.voyager.net>
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To: Jamie McCarthy 

Jamie McCarthy wrote:
> (snip)
> If revisionists simply want to point out a
> particular inefficient gas, let them point to the carbon monoxide
> engines -- they were apparently inferior to Zyklon, or else Hoess
> wouldn't have made the switch!  But this is fatuous reasoning.  If the
> war had lasted another few years, perhaps Zyklon-B would have been
> replaced with something else.  This evolution of efficiency does not, of
> course, mean that none of it ever happened.)
> (snip)

I find the term "carbon monoxide engines" intriguing. I've never heard the term used before. There are 
engines that use carbon monoxide, of course, but they are called "producer gas" engines, and were in used 
in Germany during the war. These would have made very good sources for deadly gas -- but no 
exterminationist to my knowledge has ever claimed that they were used.

Much more common is the claim that diesel engines were used to produce carbon monoxide gas -- a ridiculous 
claim owing to the relatively small amount of CO produced by a diesel engine under virtually any operating 
conditions.

To put it another way, if the Nazis had had a plan or policy to murder all the Jews in Europe/the world, 
or even a greater percentage of them, they would never have used diesel engine exhaust or a commercial 
pesticide as the killing agent. These are things you use in an improvised murder, assuming you don't know 
what you are doing. But McCarthy believes that the use of Zyklon B was the result of INCREASED 
SOPHISTICATION on the Nazis' part. 

It simply doesn't add up.

-- 
Greg Raven (ihrgreg@kaiwan.com)
PO Box 10545, Costa Mesa, CA 92627
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg


From ihrgreg@kaiwan.com Sun Apr 21 11:51:18 PDT 1996
Article: 32182 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!olivea!wetware!UB.com!kaiwan.kaiwan.com!usenet
From: Greg Raven 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Adventures in Nizkorland
Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 08:15:41 +0100
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 75
Message-ID: <3179E09D.45C@kaiwan.com>
References: <4kkiss$pfl@wi.combase.com> <31719e4c.10548747@news.srv.ualberta.ca> <4kti0j$m6c@useneta1.news.prodigy.com>  <317888D5.2992@kaiwan.com> <199604210641.CAA25739@vixa.voyager.net>
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To: Jamie McCarthy 

Jamie McCarthy wrote:
> Jamie McCarthy (jamie@voyager.net) wrote:
> > Explain something to me.  Was it asphyxiation, or poisoning, that
> > was the "natural" cause of death for the Jews in the gas chambers
> > at Treblinka?
> 
> Greg Raven (ihrgreg@kaiwan.com) responded:
> 
> > To what gas chambers are you referring? Can you show me or draw me a
> > picture of one?
> 
> Mr. Raven here engages in the favorite activity of Holocaust-deniers on
> the net:  he repeats previous claims as if they had never been
> addressed.
> 
> For people who have never seen this question before -- "show me or draw
> me" -- rest assured that it is not new.  Mr. Raven has asked it many
> times.  It has been answered many times.  He has ignored each answer.
> 
> Let me pick one example.
> 
> On December 19th, 1995, I posted an article which contained fourteen
> references to photographs and blueprints of Nazi gas chambers.  Five of
> these references were URLs that pointed to sources on the world-wide
> web;  the remainder were references to print sources.
> 
> This article was emailed directly to Mr. Raven, and I know he received
> it, because he bounced it back to me that same day.
> 
> However, he ignored it.  He bounced it back to me with no comment.
> 
> Fourteen documented answers to his question:  "show me or draw me a
> gas chamber."  And he had no comment.
> 
> Two days later, on December 21st, Mr. Raven did find something worth
> commenting on.  He commented on an article from Ken McVay by writing:
> 
>    At any rate, none of this has the least bearing on the topic at
>    hand:  Show me or draw me a Nazi gas chamber.
> 
> > It is very easy to say "gas chamber" as if everyone knows what a gas
> > chamber is. However, we must not be fooled by what we THINK we know --
> > we must confirm that we know. Until someone can produce a Nazi gas
> > chamber, at Treblinka or elsewhere, the phrase "gas chamber" has no
> > meaning.
> 
> These gas chambers have been shown to him and drawn for him many times.
> 
> He knows that.
> 
> He just hopes _you_ don't know that.
> 
> Unfortunately for Mr. Raven, the web has a long memory.
> 
> http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/r/raven.greg/open-letter-response.002


I encourage everyone to check out the material at the URL show above. It is a perfect example of the 
way the Nizkor people operate. They claim that something has been shown over and over, yet they seem 
completely unable to produce the very thing they claim to be making available!

The URL above, for those who do not have Web access, is nothing more than a rant directed toward me 
because I bounced Mr. McCarthy's abusive and off-topic messages back to him without reading them for a 
period of a couple months. Now, he claims that at least one of these messages contained proof of the 
existence of a Nazi gas chamber, something no historian has been able to provide. Something not even 
the US Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington has. Something one cannot even see at Auschwitz or 
Birkenau! This is truly news, yet, instead of saving that document, he chooses to save (or at least 
make reference to) an off-topic rant.

So we are left where we were at the beginning: Show me or draw me a Nazi gas chamber.

-- 
Greg Raven (ihrgreg@kaiwan.com)
PO Box 10545, Costa Mesa, CA 92627
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg


From ihrgreg@kaiwan.com Tue Apr 23 07:16:46 PDT 1996
Article: 32320 of alt.revisionism
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From: Greg Raven 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Rekindle the ovens, man
Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 14:14:27 +0100
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <3178E333.666E@kaiwan.com>
References: <199604201924.MAA05124@rio.com>
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To: chuck ferree 

chuck ferree wrote:
> >Greg Raven wrote:
> >The sticking point involves this "gas chamber," which you imply
> >had been in use, while virtually
> >every scholar who has studied the Holocaust now acknowledges that either
> >1) there was no gas chamber at Dachau, or 2) there was a gas chamber but it was not used. 
>
> "imply" your weird ass! I saw gas chambers. I went into Dachau the day
> it was liberated. Nothing had been done, except officials from two US
> Infantry Divisions, were trying to sort things out, plus General
> Officers from SHAEF who had been flown in by me, and other pilots. The
> place was in chaos, out of control for hours. Inmates killing
> double-crossers, American soldiers machine-gunning 150-250 SS. Corpses
> piled near the crematories, ashes in piles, dead bodies all over the
> place. And a small gas chamber. It said "Gas Chamber in German, skull &
> cross bone warnings. A real gas chamber. The facts are, the gas chamber
> was used, but not as much as in Auschwitz, and it was smaller. I have
> books explaining all this.
> 

The only photo of a so-called gas chamber at Dachau that has been made publically available is 
actually a photo of a delousing chamber, which is a gas chamber, but not a homicidal gas chamber. 
Your account is typical of many GIs who heard rumors of how terrible the Germans were, and upon 
returning home claimed to be eyewitnesses to all kinds of things that simply were not there.

-- 
Greg Raven (ihrgreg@kaiwan.com)
PO Box 10545, Costa Mesa, CA 92627
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg


From ihrgreg@kaiwan.com Tue Apr 23 07:16:47 PDT 1996
Article: 32327 of alt.revisionism
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From: Greg Raven 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Zyklone B - Unlikely Agent
Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 08:32:43 +0100
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 42
Message-ID: <3179E49B.449B@kaiwan.com>
References: <316d146d.4061484@news.pacificnet.net> <316e661d.5389680@news.pacificnet.net> <14APR199607151245@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <3173a37c.2359523@news.pacificnet.net> <31788217.4109@kaiwan.com> <199604210702.AAA19508@rbi.rbi.com>
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To: Mark Van Alstine 

Mark Van Alstine wrote:
> Mr. Raven, others have discussed this as well and have cited that the
> vaporization of HCN from Zyklon B is far more complete than just 40%, and
> ws accomplished in a shorter period of time than 30 minutes:
> 
> In Message-ID: <4aclps$9cr@gwdu19.gwdg.de>, Ulrich Roessler wrote:
> 
>    "However, in the same article he [Rudolph] admits the following:
> 
>    "The original patent for Zyklon-B specifies that nearly ALL HCN
>    (more than 90% apparently) will be emitted within 10min, at normal
>    temperatures (20 degree C)! Rudolf tries to dismiss this with the lame
>    comment that everyone exaggerates technical data in patent applications....
> 
> (snip)
> 
> Mr. Raven, as noted above, 90% of the HCN in the Zyklon B was vaporized in
> about 10 minutes. It is therefore unlikely than any significant amount of
> HCN remained unvaporized after 15 minutes, and probably none after 20,
> when the deaeration system was turned on in Kremas II and III (and later
> Krema V) to remove the HCN-laden air; or when the outside opening doors of
> bunkers 1 and 2 and Kremas IV and V were opened to vent their gas
> chambers.

The Degesch manual on Zyklon B, page 20 (found on page 155 of The Leuchter Report), reads:

"The chief operator must so arrange everyone's part in the operation {of distributing the Zyklon B in the 
area to be fumigated} that it will not take more than 30 minutes in all. This applies especially to very warm 
climates...."

This, in conjunction with the earlier statements (in the Degesch manual) of the lengthy times required for 
fumigation and ventilation, would seem to indicate that under the worst conditions (warm, dry weather) the 
HCN concentrations from Zyklon B begin to reach dangerous levels at the 30-minute mark, even for operators 
with proper clothing and gas masks. No matter what the patent says, the manual -- which would be used by 
operators, not the patent papers -- shows the real-world application of Zyklon B.

-- 
Greg Raven (ihrgreg@kaiwan.com)
PO Box 10545, Costa Mesa, CA 92627
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg




From ihrgreg@kaiwan.com Tue Apr 23 07:16:48 PDT 1996
Article: 32329 of alt.revisionism
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From: Greg Raven 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Adventures in Nizkorland
Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 08:40:17 +0100
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 52
Message-ID: <3179E661.49E4@kaiwan.com>
References: <4kkiss$pfl@wi.combase.com> <31719e4c.10548747@news.srv.ualberta.ca> <4kti0j$m6c@useneta1.news.prodigy.com>  <317888D5.2992@kaiwan.com> <199604210717.AAA19518@rbi.rbi.com>
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To: Mark Van Alstine 

Mark Van Alstine wrote:
> In article <317888D5.2992@kaiwan.com>, ihrgreg@kaiwan.com wrote:
> 
> [snip]
> 
> > To what gas chambers are you referring? Can you show me or draw me a
> > picture of one?
> 
> Have you not seen photos of the gas chamber of Krema I at Auschwitz I? Or
> the one at Maidanek? Or how about the drawing of bunker 2 at Auschwitz
> II-Birkenau by Szlama Dragon?

As everyone from F. Piper to L'Exress now acknowledges, the so-called gas chamber at Auschwitz 
one is at best a reconstruction. No one viewing this reconstruction has seen a Nazi gas chamber, 
because 1) it is not in its original condition, and 2) there are no plans showning how the 
"reconstructors" were guided in making their "reconstruction."

> For a Holocaust "scholar" you do seem a tad uniformed....

I can't help it. On my budget, I am pretty much forced to wear a T-shirt and jeans on a daily 
basis. But what has my personal style of dress have to do with anything?

> > It is very easy to say "gas chamber" as if everyone knows what a gas
> > chamber is. However, we must not be fooled by what we THINK we know --
> > we must confirm that we know. Until someone can produce a Nazi gas
> > chamber, at Treblinka or elsewhere, the phrase "gas chamber" has no
> > meaning.
> 
> Conversely, Mr. Raven, it is also very easy to say "no gas chamber," when
> the overwhelming body of evidence supports that they did indeed exists,
> and were indeed used in mass homicidal gassings. However, simply because
> it is easy to say does not make it true. For that one must address this
> overwhelming body of evidence and show how it would indicate otherwise.

So overwhelm me!

> To date neither you, nor _any_ Holocaust denier, have remotely done this.
> Instead, you concot farsical "reasons" why the gas chambers weren't gas
> chambers, ignoring this great body of evidence that indicates otherwise,
> as you are unable to explain it away without appearing like irrational
> loons in hairshirts.

It is impossible to prove a negative. However, the Leuchter Report, Lueftl Report, and Rudolf 
Report, among others, are steps in the direction you specify. Why haven't the anti-revisionists 
conducted a comprehensive forensic examination of these so-called mass gas chambers?

-- 
Greg Raven (ihrgreg@kaiwan.com)
PO Box 10545, Costa Mesa, CA 92627
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg




From ihrgreg@kaiwan.com Tue Apr 23 09:35:03 PDT 1996
Article: 32361 of alt.revisionism
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From: Greg Raven 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Adventures in Nizkorland
Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 07:48:53 +0100
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <317888D5.2992@kaiwan.com>
References: <4kkiss$pfl@wi.combase.com> <31719e4c.10548747@news.srv.ualberta.ca> <4kti0j$m6c@useneta1.news.prodigy.com> 
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To: Jamie McCarthy 

Jamie McCarthy wrote:
> 
> EEGG87E@prodigy.com (M Huber) wrote:
> 
> > > Does it *really* make that much difference whether they died of
> > > asphyxiation or from NOx or CO poisoning?
> >
> > The mode of death is critical. Ask any jew. Most died of natural
> > causes like non-jew war casualties.
> 
> Explain something to me.  Was it asphyxiation, or poisoning, that
> was the "natural" cause of death for the Jews in the gas chambers
> at Treblinka?


To what gas chambers are you referring? Can you show me or draw me a 
picture of one?

It is very easy to say "gas chamber" as if everyone knows what a gas 
chamber is. However, we must not be fooled by what we THINK we know -- 
we must confirm that we know. Until someone can produce a Nazi gas 
chamber, at Treblinka or elsewhere, the phrase "gas chamber" has no 
meaning. 

-- 
Greg Raven (ihrgreg@kaiwan.com)
PO Box 10545, Costa Mesa, CA 92627
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg


From ihrgreg@kaiwan.com Tue Apr 23 09:35:05 PDT 1996
Article: 32362 of alt.revisionism
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From: Greg Raven 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Rekindle the ovens, man
Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 08:01:49 +0100
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <31788BDD.1B9C@kaiwan.com>
References: <4kted4$mag@useneta1.news.prodigy.com> <4kukkq$ob2@news.nyu.edu> <4l14jb$2nv@wave.rio.com>
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To: Chuck Ferree 

Chuck Ferree wrote:
> 
> I hate to butt in here, but the ovens I saw in 1945 existed. Our liquer
> ration was very limited, so drunk or sober, we saw them ovens, we
> touched them ovens, we took pictures of them ovens. The ashes were still
> piled all around, heaps and heaps. Another thing we saw in April of
> 1945, were the gas chambers. Yep, even at Dachau. It sat there big as
> life. Stunk something awful. Course the whole place stunk of dead
> bodies, laying around all over. Fecal matter, loose stools as some say.
> Some of these poor souls shit themselves to death. Oh yeah, never forget
> the ovens. Burned my flight gear after Dachau, Wellinton boots from
> London and all. Them boots cost me $50.00 American, but they were cool
> and all hot pilots wore Wellington flight boots.
> Yep ovens in each of the seven Nazi killing places I saw. Swear to God.
> Ovens to burn people up. Man, them Nazi MFs thought of everything, 'cept
> that they might lose the war.

No one seriously disputes the fact that there were crematories. They were used not only in the 
concentration camps, but also in any city above a certain size.

The sticking point involves this "gas chamber," which you imply had been in use, while virtually 
every scholar who has studied the Holocaust now acknowledges that either 1) there was no gas 
chamber at Dachau, or 2) there was a gas chamber but it was not used.

Do you have a photo of this "gas chamber"? Were you expecting to find a "gas chamber" upon 
overrunning these concentration camps? Where did you first hear about Nazi "gas chambers"?

-- 
Greg Raven (ihrgreg@kaiwan.com)
PO Box 10545, Costa Mesa, CA 92627
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg


From ihrgreg@kaiwan.com Tue Apr 23 10:49:06 PDT 1996
Article: 32386 of alt.revisionism
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From: Greg Raven 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Zyklone B - Unlikely Agent
Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 07:20:07 +0100
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 50
Message-ID: <31788217.4109@kaiwan.com>
References: <316d146d.4061484@news.pacificnet.net> <316e661d.5389680@news.pacificnet.net> <14APR199607151245@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <3173a37c.2359523@news.pacificnet.net>
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To: tom moran 

tom moran wrote:
> 
> dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:
> 
> >In article <316e661d.5389680@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
> >> (snip)
>
>   Lets see. Raven says that Zyclone B is made to gas off slowly
> and thus would be a poor choice for the mass extermination of human
> beings under the conditions alleged.
> 
>         Karen responds with some material that he concludes "clearly
> refutes" Raven's "rubbish".
> 
>         The summary of the pertinent refuting information offered by
> Keren is:
> 
> 1. 40% of the HCN escapes the storing medium in the first half hour.
> 
> 2. Humans die quickly from much less concentration, so much less than
> 40% would have to gas off.
> 
> 3. That recently discovered patents to Zyclone B show that the gas off
> is even faster.

Without having seen Keren's original post, I would make these observations:

1) We have been told that the entire gassing procedure took less than 30 minutes, 
meaning that only some fraction of the 40% Keren cites (if accurate) would be 
available for killing people. It should be noted that in the California gas chamber, 
where the HCN-based poison is dropped into a weak acid solution directly beneath the 
chair of the condemned man, it takes 8 to 10 minutes for the condemned man to die. 
This is in a small, specially-built room, using higher concentrations of HCN than we 
are lead to believe were used in the alleged gas chambers at Birkenau.

2) After the 15 to 30 minute "gassing" that is spoken of in "eyewitness" accounts, the 
Zyklon B would still be gassing off, so that in addition to residue gas in the air, in 
the corpses, and on the surfaces of the room and the victims, there would be more than 
half the killing potentiol remaining in the Zyklon B.

3) Germany had faster-acting substances (such as Sarin) if they needed something with 
which to kill people. The claim that they attempted to adapt Zyklon B is as ludicrous 
as claims that, while they intended to kill millions of Jews using gas, they forgot to 
built gas chambers at what is said to have been the largest gassing facility, and thus 
had to CONVERT existing rooms and buildings into gas chambers.

-- 
Greg Raven (ihrgreg@kaiwan.com)
PO Box 10545, Costa Mesa, CA 92627
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg


From ihrgreg@kaiwan.com Tue Apr 23 14:16:54 PDT 1996
Article: 32431 of alt.revisionism
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From: Greg Raven 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Rekindle the ovens, man
Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 17:17:46 +0100
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 52
Message-ID: <31790E2A.5FAA@kaiwan.com>
References: <199604202205.PAA08989@rio.com>
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To: chuck ferree 

chuck ferree wrote:
> >> >Greg Raven wrote:
> >> >The sticking point involves this "gas chamber," which you imply
> >> >had been in use, while virtually
> >> >every scholar who has studied the Holocaust now acknowledges that either
> >> >1) there was no gas chamber at Dachau, or 2) there was a gas chamber but
> >> >it was not used.
> >>
> >> "imply" your weird ass! I saw gas chambers. I went into Dachau the day
> >> it was liberated. Nothing had been done, except officials from two US
> >> Infantry Divisions, were trying to sort things out, plus General
> >> Officers from SHAEF who had been flown in by me, and other pilots. The
> >> place was in chaos, out of control for hours. Inmates killing
> >> double-crossers, American soldiers machine-gunning 150-250 SS. Corpses
> >> piled near the crematories, ashes in piles, dead bodies all over the
> >> place. And a small gas chamber. It said "Gas Chamber in German, skull &
> >> cross bone warnings. A real gas chamber. The facts are, the gas chamber
> >> was used, but not as much as in Auschwitz, and it was smaller. I have
> >> books explaining all this.
> 
> You, just like the others, simply dismiss out of hand facts which can
> be proven, and you can't prove item one. What I wrote above means
> nothing to you. I saw it, you read about it, and have the balls to
> question my integrity. Sick SOB, and I don't like to call people names,
> but you are a liar, and you spread lies and hate. And you get paid to
> do it.

You yourself have failed to provide proof. You claim you saw a homicidal gas chamber that was either not 
there or was a delousing chamber (do you even know the difference?), and you don't say that you saw 
bodies it in. If I remember correctly, you say it smelled bad. Even without getting into the whole issue 
of how notorious unreliable "eyewitness" testimony is -- especially after many many years have passed -- 
this is hardly proof of a massive program of gassing millions of human beings!

> >The only photo of a so-called gas chamber at Dachau that has been made
> >publically available is
> >actually a photo of a delousing chamber, which is a gas chamber, but not a
> >homicidal gas chamber.
> 
> How do you know there are no other photos? How do you know what I saw
> was never used to gas humans to death? You don't know and you can't
> prove it. Prove it and I'll apologize on-line. Other-wise shutup!

If you'll read my posting again, you will see that I am not claiming there are no other photos. I am 
simply stating that the one photo everyone knows about, the one with the soldier standing if front of a 
delousing chamber, supports the revisionist position. If you have a photo of a homicidal gas chamber, 
then by all means produce it so we can all evaluate it. That way, you can show that you are right and I 
am wrong, without having to resort to foul language and threats of violence.

-- 
Greg Raven (ihrgreg@kaiwan.com)
PO Box 10545, Costa Mesa, CA 92627
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg


From ihrgreg@kaiwan.com Sat Apr 27 06:44:00 PDT 1996
Article: 32928 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!news.trw.com!acsc.com!kaiwan.kaiwan.com!usenet
From: Greg Raven 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Adventures in Nizkorland
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 17:26:48 +0100
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 63
Message-ID: <3180F948.542C@kaiwan.com>
References: <4kkiss$pfl@wi.combase.com> <31719e4c.10548747@news.srv.ualberta.ca> <4kti0j$m6c@useneta1.news.prodigy.com>  <317888D5.2992@kaiwan.com> <199604210717.AAA19518@rbi.rbi.com> <3179E661.49E4@kaiwan.com> <4ll93m$rpv@hackberry.zilker.net> <199604262002.NAA32236@rbi.rbi.com>
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To: Mark Van Alstine 

Mark Van Alstine wrote:
> 
> In article <4ll93m$rpv@hackberry.zilker.net>, mike@aimetering.com (Mike
> Curtis) wrote:
> 
> > Greg Raven  wrote:
> >
> > >Mark Van Alstine wrote:
> > >> In article <317888D5.2992@kaiwan.com>, ihrgreg@kaiwan.com wrote:
> > >>
> > >> [snip]
> > >>
> > >> > To what gas chambers are you referring? Can you show me or draw me a
> > >> > picture of one?
> > >>
> > >> Have you not seen photos of the gas chamber of Krema I at Auschwitz I? Or
> > >> the one at Maidanek? Or how about the drawing of bunker 2 at Auschwitz
> > >> II-Birkenau by Szlama Dragon?
> >
> > >As everyone from F. Piper to L'Exress now acknowledges, the so-called gas
> > >chamber at Auschwitz one is at best a reconstruction.
> >
> > Look up the word reconstruction everyone. LOL!
> 
> Indeed! LOL!
> 
> reconstruction n. 1 a) the act of reconsructing b) something recontructed
> 
> recontruct vt. 1 to construct again; rebuild; make over 2 to build up,
> from remaining parts or other evidence, a concept or reproduction of
> (something in its original or complete form)
> 
> Obviouly, then, Mr. Raven, as you agree that Krema I is a _recontruction_,
> and by definition, this means to construct again from its ramianing parts
> something in its _origional_ or _complete_ form, we have our example of a
> Nazi gas chamber.

Perhaps you should have looked up the definition of "at best." You certainly should have 
inquired about "remaining parts or other evidence."

I do not agree that Krema I is a reconstruction. There is no evidence of the "original 
construction," without which there cannot be a reconstruction.  I believe it is called a 
reconstruction because people are afraid to admit they have no proof of the existence of 
the original, but hope they can finesse the entire question by producing a 
"reconstruction."

To give an example of why this is unsatisfactory, one could offer a "reconstruction" of 
an alien space ship, although we have no evidence that an original exists (at least, not 
on this planet).

> Or do you assert that the _recontruction_ of Krema I is a forgery? If so,
> I would strongly insist that you show compelling evidence of it being so
> forged.

My original challenge was to show me or draw me a Nazi gas chamber. You have failed to do 
this. Instead, you have referred to building that is merely labelled a gas chamber, 
failing to show how or why it is a Nazi gas chamber. Produce the plans of the building 
when it was a Nazi gas chamber, and then we can proceed.

--
Greg Raven (ihrgreg@kaiwan.com)
PO Box 10545, Costa Mesa, CA 92627
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg


From ihrgreg@kaiwan.com Sun Apr 28 10:09:04 PDT 1996
Article: 33387 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newshub.csu.net!newsserver.sdsc.edu!acsc.com!kaiwan.kaiwan.com!usenet
From: Greg Raven 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Rekindle the ovens, man
Date: Sun, 28 Apr 1996 08:05:47 +0100
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 43
Message-ID: <318318CB.22C8@kaiwan.com>
References: <199604250114.SAA16091@rio.com>
Reply-To: ihrgreg@kaiwan.com
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To: chuck ferree 

chuck ferree wrote:
> 
> >Subject:     Re: Rekindle the ovens, man
> >Sent:        4/24/96 9:29 PM
> >Received:    4/24/96 5:44 PM
> >From:        Mark Van Alstine, mvanalst@rbi.com
> >To:          ihrgreg@kaiwan.com
> >             Chuck Ferree, chuckf@rio.com
> >
> >In article <3178E333.666E@kaiwan.com>, ihrgreg@kaiwan.com wrote:
> >
> >> The only photo of a so-called gas chamber at Dachau that has been made
> >> publically available is  actually a photo of a delousing chamber, which is
> a
> >> gas chamber, but not a homicidal gas chamber.
> 
> Whatever! But he won't admit either, that other photos do exist, I have
> some and another Liberator who lives about 50 miles away from my town,
> also has more. He was a Signal Corps photographer. This is one Liberator
> who will not talk to anyone other than some who he knows and trusts. I am
> able to chat with him, but he's old and real crotchity. He entered Dachau
> before I did, but on the same day.

Of course other photos exist. But by saying this, you seem to be claiming that although we are 
commonly shown a photo of a delousing chamber, there are photos of an actual Nazi homicidal gas 
chamber, but for some reason they either never or rarely show them. What kind of logic is that? If 
there is a photo of a Nazi homicidal gas chamber at Dachau, let's see it!

By the way, Mr. Ferree, do you know a Homer G. Richey? He visited Dachau, too, after the way, and 
he wrote:

"I was, toward the end of World War II, an army captain on the staff of Ambassador Robert Murphy, 
Political Adviser to Gen. Eisenhower. I was at Dachau about a month after it has been liberated, 
either the end of May or the beginning of June, 1945. There was no gas chamber there, nor did I see 
one in the process of construction."

(This last phrase is in reference to claims that a gas chamber was under construction at Dachau 
when it fell into Allied hands.)

-- 
Greg Raven (ihrgreg@kaiwan.com)
PO Box 10545, Costa Mesa, CA 92627
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg


From ihrgreg@kaiwan.com Mon Apr 29 08:07:51 PDT 1996
Article: 33556 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!in-news.erinet.com!bug.rahul.net!rahul.net!a2i!kaiwan.kaiwan.com!usenet
From: Greg Raven 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: "Holocaust Revisionists" lie to net free-speech activi
Date: Sun, 28 Apr 1996 21:42:35 +0100
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 47
Message-ID: <3183D83B.7BC7@kaiwan.com>
References: <199604290155.VAA20028@vixa.voyager.net>
Reply-To: ihrgreg@kaiwan.com
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To: Jamie McCarthy 

Jamie McCarthy wrote:
> 
> FYI.
> In article ,
> jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:
> 
> > Rich, I imagine that this may be a misunderstanding.  The process of
> > publishing a book electronically is probably fairly complex, and what
> > we're seeing may be something as simple as Raven having informally
> > approved the process initially, and then after checking with his lawyer,
> > agent, etc., finding that it was more difficult than he might have
> > thought at first.
> 
> Yes, thanks. No reason to go overboard. Article canceled. Anyway, Godwin's
> Law was violated long ago.
> 
> - -rich


I missed the beginning of this, but it probably concerns the publication on the Internet of David 
Irving's new book on Goebbels.

Here's the story:

As soon as I heard that St Martins Press had dropped the Goebbels book, I phoned David Irving in 
London. He asked me if I would publish his book on the Internet, and find others who would do so 
as well, to show that he could not be silenced.

I agreed, and Irving said he would send me a diskette with the entire manuscript on it. At that 
point, I put out word that I would be making available the Goebbels book on the Internet, and that 
Irving (and I) were looking for other sites willing to post the material.

The next day, however, when I spoke with Irving, he indicated that he was attempting to find 
another US publisher, and that he had been advised that his chances of finding one would be 
further reduced if the material was freely available on the Internet.

He therefore put on hold plans to publish his Goebbels book on the Internet, and I never received 
the manuscript on diskette. (Neither have I received a hard copy of the manuscript or the UK 
version of the book.)

As far as I know, there is still a possibility that Irving's Goebbels book will be published on 
the Internet, but I imagine it would be only as a last resort on Irving's part.

-- 
Greg Raven (ihrgreg@kaiwan.com)
PO Box 10545, Costa Mesa, CA 92627
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg


From ihrgreg@kaiwan.com Mon Apr 29 08:07:52 PDT 1996
Article: 33560 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!in-news.erinet.com!bug.rahul.net!rahul.net!a2i!kaiwan.kaiwan.com!usenet
From: Greg Raven 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Rekindle the ovens, man
Date: Sun, 28 Apr 1996 21:55:40 +0100
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 49
Message-ID: <3183DB4C.15DA@kaiwan.com>
References: <199604282103.OAA04088@rio.com>
Reply-To: ihrgreg@kaiwan.com
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To: chuck ferree 

In reference to the so-called "homicidal" gas chamber at Dachau, chuck ferree wrote:
> I did not say anything about a "homicidal" gas chamber. What I said was
> that I saw a gas chamber. Several inmates of different nationalities told
> us that what we saw was a gas chamber, used to kill inmates. That's also
> what some of the books I have read about Dachau say about the gas
> chamber. (used on occassion but not on a regular basis).

On this point, we seem to agree. However, for purposes of discussion, calling a delousing chamber a 
gas chamber, while technically correct in this case, merely confuses the issue.

> I went into Dachau on the first day of it's liberation, and if you've
> read any of my previous posts, you already know how chaotic it was.
> People were still killing people, inmates were out of control, although
> they didn't bother us, they had already decided who they would kill
> because they considered them to be traitors and so on. The American
> troops had one hell of a time gaining control of the camp, and after
> about three days there, I flew my passengers back to Frankfurt. To sum up
> for you. There was a gas chamber at Dachau. Delousing did not require an
> enclosed, sealed chamber with warnings all over it.

Not true. Delousing with Zyklon B requires a sealed room or building, given the poisonous nature of 
Zyklon B. Delousing chambers were fairly common where Zyklon B is concerned.
 
> >that although we are
> >commonly shown a photo of a delousing chamber,
> 
> That's what you claim. Doesn't make it true. Beating a long dead horse!
> We were "deloused" in every camp we entered, 5 in all, Bergen-Belsen
> twice and at no time did I or anyone else have to enter a delousing
> chamber with iron doors and all that crap. They just dusted us good with
> DDT. I had them dust the inside of my airplane too.

The Germans did not have DDT, and so had to use other methods to delouse bedding and clothing, etc.

> >(This last phrase is in reference to claims that a gas chamber was under
> >construction at Dachau
> >when it fell into Allied hands.)
> 
> More bullshit. The gas chamber that I saw was old and pretty beat up. And
> we were also shown cans of poison gas. They didn't use it on us to
> delouse us. What do you suppose they used this poison gas for?

If I remember correctly, that "bs" was from Martin Broszat, one of the more highly regarded 
anti-revisionist historians.

-- 
Greg Raven (ihrgreg@kaiwan.com)
PO Box 10545, Costa Mesa, CA 92627
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg


From ihrgreg@kaiwan.com Tue Apr 30 23:39:55 PDT 1996
Article: 33676 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!olivea!samba.rahul.net!rahul.net!a2i!bug.rahul.net!rahul.net!a2i!kaiwan.kaiwan.com!usenet
From: Greg Raven 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Rekindle the ovens, man
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 08:16:18 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 57
Message-ID: <3184EB52.22C2@kaiwan.com>
References: <199604290544.WAA15850@rio.com>
Reply-To: ihrgreg@kaiwan.com
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Mime-Version: 1.0
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To: chuck ferree 

chuck ferree wrote:
> We had DDT, the Americans Divisions, 30th. 45th. Tank outfits. We were
> deloused with fucking DDT. And the British had plenty at Belsen. So drop
> it.
> >
> >Not true.
> 
> You read that in a book, you don't know. You think, any American would
> stand still to be put into any kind of a chamber for any reason? Shit,
> man, I'd shoot the first guy who even mentioned it.

I know that the Allies had DDT. What you need to realize is that the Germans did not. They 
used Zyklon B. One of the reasons why DDT was such a breakthrough is because of its ease of 
use compared to previous pesticides, such as Zyklon B.

Furthermore, humans were not deloused in delousing chambers. Bedding, clothing, and etc were 
put into the chambers. Rooms and buildings were sealed and then fumigated with Zyklon B. 
Humans were showered.

>  Delousing with Zyklon B requires a sealed room or building,
> >given the poisonous nature of
> >Zyklon B. Delousing chambers were fairly common where Zyklon B is concerned.
> 
> So what! Zyklon B was used to murder millions of people, in Poland, and
> in Germany. I know this to be trure, you know this to be true, so why be
> so dogmatic! You ain't gonna win, pal!

If you have even a scrap of proof that Zyklon B was used to gas humans in Poland and/or 
Germany, please provide it. You will not do so, because you cannot -- Zyklon B was not used 
for this purpose.

> Bullshit. The Germans didn't give a shit if the inmates had lice. Why do
> you think so many inmates died from typhus. Idiot. Every camp I went into
> had lice, Typhus, and lot's of dead people laying around. Don't give me
> that crap that the SS or Nazi bastards cared about the health and welfare
> of the inmates. They wanted them dead and that's how most of them ended
> up. 50-60 thousand Jews died at Theresienstadt, from starvation, Typhus,
> TB and neglect, and this was one of the "better" Nazi concentration camps.

To the contrary, the Germans did care. Himmler himself issued an order that the death rate of 
inmates must be lowered. Also, typhus did not only kill inmates, it killed members of the SS 
as well, so the Germans were very interested in stopping typhus.

Furthermore, the conditions you saw in the concentration camps at the end of the war were not 
representative of conditions earlier on, when the infrastructure of Germany was still 
functioning. At some of the camps, thousands of inmates died AFTER liberation, because 
conditions were so bad. Does that mean the Allies were running death camps?

> Now, I'm telling you...get out of my face. Everyone has your number. I
> don't like you, and your full of it, pal!

Bluster and obscenities won't make me wrong and you right.

--
Greg Raven (ihrgreg@kaiwan.com)
PO Box 10545, Costa Mesa, CA 92627
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg



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