The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/r/raven.greg/1995/raven.0995


From cacst9+@pitt.edu Fri Sep  1 09:02:02 PDT 1995
Article: 5606 of alt.revisionism
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From: cacst9+@pitt.edu (Cecelia A Clancy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Who Owns IHR? (was Re: My reply to Ken McVay)
Date: 1 Sep 1995 04:59:24 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
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In article ,
Joel Rosenberg  wrote:
>In article  
 greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) writes:

>>First, I am not president and/or CEO of the Institute for Historical
>>Review, as the IHR has no president and/or CEO.


Then who runs the Institute for Historical Review?  Who controls its
funds?  Who do you answer to?  Who does Mark Weber answer to?

If it is true that Willis Carto has abandoned IHR, then who replaced him?

Is the League for the Survival of Freedom, which is owned by Willis
Carto, still IHR's holding company?  If not, then just who owns IHR?

***************************************************************************
Cecelia Clancy          cacst9+@pitt.edu           (412) 441-2231
P.O. Box 71222
Pittsburgh, PA 15213
USA
*************************************************************************** 


From joelr@winternet.com Fri Sep  1 09:02:06 PDT 1995
Article: 5668 of alt.revisionism
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From: joelr@winternet.com (Joel Rosenberg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Yet another personal attack ...
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 1995 09:12:00
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In article  greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) writes:

>> Perhaps we could get Greg to talk about "The Lawsuit" a few years back.

>Sure. We kicked Mel Mermelstein's butt, in our first round of motions, and
>he voluntarily dropped the rest of his suit against us.

This is, like, the suit where you jerks had to pay him $90K?  Is that the sort 
fo victory you like to crow about?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Joel Rosenberg       | For news about upcoming books,  | My opinions are mine.
joelr@winternet.com  | finger joelr@winternet.com      | Whose are yours?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                 Home page at http://www.winternet.com/~joelr


From kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca Fri Sep  1 14:22:56 PDT 1995
Article: 5707 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!not-for-mail
From: kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Who Owns IHR? (was Re: My reply to Ken McVay)
Date: 1 Sep 1995 09:29:54 -0700
Organization: The Nizkor Project
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In article <4263vc$stj@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu>, cacst9+@pitt.edu (Cecelia A Clancy) wrote:

> greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) writes:
>
>>>First, I am not president and/or CEO of the Institute for Historical
>>>Review, as the IHR has no president and/or CEO.

>Then who runs the Institute for Historical Review?  Who controls its
>funds?  Who do you answer to?  Who does Mark Weber answer to?

See _The IHR Update_, July '95, page 2...

-- 
     The Nizkor Project: An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
                   Anonymous ftp: ftp.almanac.bc.ca
Nizkor Web: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction - permanently!)
   Kenneth McVay OBC.  Home Page: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/~kmcvay/


From A_Baron@abaron.demon.co.uk Fri Sep  1 14:22:57 PDT 1995
Article: 5726 of alt.revisionism
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From: Alexander Baron 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Yet another personal attack ...
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 95 21:29:07 GMT
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In article  dkeren@world.std.com "Daniel Keren" writes:

> PS - according to Nazi laws, a Jew who was accused of having sex
> with a "pure-blooded German woman" was sentenced to death. I have
> some transcripts from a trial in which a Jewish man (Katzenberger)
> was tried for this.

What about the man who sent a letter to a Jewish lawyer addressed "To the
Jew lawyer". The Jew sued him and he was fined 25 Marks.

-- 
Alexander Baron

"He who cannot reason is a fool; he who will not is a bigot; he who dare
not is a slave." - W. Drummond


From dkeren@world.std.com Fri Sep  1 23:17:59 PDT 1995
Article: 5785 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
Subject: Re: Yet another personal attack ...
Message-ID: 
Organization: The World, Public Access Internet, Brookline, MA
References:  <423m14$gm8@rover.ucs.ualberta.ca>  <809904547snz@abaron.demon.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 1995 20:20:22 GMT
Lines: 55

Alexander Baron  writes:

# What about the man who sent a letter to a Jewish lawyer
# addressed "To the Jew lawyer". The Jew sued him and he was
# fined 25 Marks.

And when did this take place?

Here's what I was referring to - the case of a Jew sentenced to
death because he was *suspected* of having sex with a "pure-blooded
German woman".

Excerpts from Opinion and Sentence of the Nuernberg Special Court in
the Katzenberger Case
[Trials of War Criminals Before the Nuernberg Military Tribunals -
Washington, U.S Govt. Print. Off., 1949-1953, Vol. III, 653-663]
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Findings:

1. The defendant Katzenberger is fully Jewish and a German national; he
   is a member of the Jewish religious community...

2. Irene Seiler is a German citizen of German blood...

[Testimonies about the relationship between Katzenberger and Seiler
deleted]

The court is therefore convinced that Katzenberger, after the Nuernberg
laws had come into effect, had repeated sexual intercourse with Seiler,
up to March 1940...

The conduct to which the defendants admitted and which in the case of
Katzenberger and consisted in drawing Seiler close to him, kissing
her, patting and caressing her thighs over her clothes, makes it clear
that in a crude manner Katzenberger did to Seiler what is popularly
called "Abschmieren" [petting]. It is obvious that such actions
are motivated only by sexual impulses. Even if the Jew had only done
these so-called "Ersatzhandlungen" [sexual acts in lieu of actual
intercourse] to Seiler, it would have been sufficient to charge him
with racial pollution in the full sense of the law...

He is therefore guilty of a continuous crime of racial pollution
according to sections 2 and 5, paragraph 11 of the Law for
Protection of German Blood and German Honor of 15 September 1935...

As the only feasible answer to the frivolous conduct of the defendant,
the court therefore deems it necessary to pronounce the death sentence
as the heaviest punishment provided by section 4 of the decree
against public enemies...




-Danny Keren.



From hkatz@earth.usa.net Fri Sep  1 23:18:01 PDT 1995
Article: 5807 of alt.revisionism
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From: hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Yet another personal attack ...
Date: 1 Sep 1995 22:17:14 GMT
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In article 
dkeren@world.std.com "Daniel Keren" wrote:

	PS - according to Nazi laws, a Jew who was accused of having
	sex with a "pure-blooded German woman" was sentenced to death.
	I have some transcripts from a trial in which a Jewish man
	(Katzenberger) was tried for this.


In article <809904547snz@abaron.demon.co.uk>,
Alexander Baron (A_Baron@abaron.demon.co.uk) writes:

	What about the man who sent a letter to a Jewish lawyer
	addressed "To the Jew lawyer". The Jew sued him and he
	was fined 25 Marks.


So, in Mr. Baron's mind the death penalty is not nearly as severe as a
fine of 25 marks!

--
Harry Katz

The learned man should judge himself according to his own teaching,
and not do anything that he has forbidden others to do.
	-- The Wit and Wisdom of the Talmud, Madison C. Peters, ed.


From greg.ihr@kaiwan.com Sat Sep  2 08:37:39 PDT 1995
Article: 5856 of alt.revisionism
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Who Owns IHR? (was Re: My reply to Ken McVay)
Date: 2 Sep 1995 05:50:44 GMT
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 34
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> >In article  
>  greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) writes:
> 
> >>First, I am not president and/or CEO of the Institute for Historical
> >>Review, as the IHR has no president and/or CEO.
> 
> 
> Then who runs the Institute for Historical Review?  Who controls its
> funds?  Who do you answer to?  Who does Mark Weber answer to?

The Insitute for Historical Review is "run" by Mark Weber. It's funds are
controlled both by the president of its parent corporation, and by the
board of directors of its parent corporation. Weber answers to the board
of directors.

> If it is true that Willis Carto has abandoned IHR, then who replaced him?

It is not true that Willis Carto has abandoned the IHR, just the opposite
in fact. He still tells people that he represents the only true IHR.

> Is the League for the Survival of Freedom, which is owned by Willis
> Carto, still IHR's holding company?  If not, then just who owns IHR?

I am not familiar with the League for the Survival of Freedom, although
Willis Carto does control -- if not own -- many corporations and front
groups. The IHR does not have a holding company, as I understand the term.
Finally, the IHR is not "owned" by anyone, as it is a public interest,
not-for-profit corporation, and by law cannot be owned by anyone.

-- 
Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
Or, come visit my home page at http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr
The Institute for Historical Review can be reached at:
P.O. Box 241556, Newport Beach, CA 92659


From cacst9+@pitt.edu Sat Sep  2 23:02:18 PDT 1995
Article: 5911 of alt.revisionism
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From: cacst9+@pitt.edu (Cecelia A Clancy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Who Owns IHR?
Date: 3 Sep 1995 00:25:32 GMT
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In article <427ce2$krd@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>,
Ken McVay OBC  wrote:
>In article <4263vc$stj@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu>, cacst9+@pitt.edu (Cecelia A Clancy) wrote:

[Cecelia responding to Greg Raven]
>>Then who runs the Institute for Historical Review?  Who controls its
>>funds?  Who do you answer to?  Who does Mark Weber answer to?

[Ken responding to Cecelia]
>See _The IHR Update_, July '95, page 2...

Ken, what is _The IHR Update_?

If it is put out be IHR itself, you cannot trust what it says in there.

If it is not put out by IHR, then who puts it out
and how can I get it?

Do you have _The IHR Update_, July '95, page 2 online?  If so, can you
e-mail me a copy?


Cecelia Clancy      cacst9+@pitt.edu   P.O. Box 71222
                    (412) 441-2231     Pittsburgh, PA 15213
                                       USA
***********************************************************************     


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sat Sep  2 23:02:19 PDT 1995
Article: 5920 of alt.revisionism
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From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Cyanide compounds don't form in the first place?
Date: 2 Sep 1995 22:22:53 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
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In article <422rhd$mr9@shiva.usa.net>, Harry Katz  wrote:
>In article <422p5c$hp0@calvino.alaska.net>,
>Henry Ayre (henri@alaska.net) writes:
>Mr. Ayre once again demonstrates his difficulty with reading.  The
>article that he is responding to quite clearly states that the walls of
>the gas chambers were not in contact with the gas for nearly as long as
>the walls of delousing chambers.  So, in the death chambers the
>cyanides did not get to penetrate deeply into the concrete walls.  Mr.
>Ayre's comments show no indication that he read the material.
>
>>	Rather than all this vain and useless speculation on the part of
>>	the exterminationists about solubility and leaching...
>
>Mr. Ayre errs.  Holocaust deniers routinely substitute "vain and
>useless specualtion" for hard facts, but the facts of the article he
>responds to were collected by experts -- another point he apparently
>missed in his "reading!"
>
>>	...in order to explain away this extraordinary ratio of
>>	1000 to 1 in cyanides concentration, one would think that they
>>	would produce a replicable experiment that would show that such
>>	leaching does occur and could result in these figures.


    John Morris provided a pointer to Brian Harmon's paper; evidently Mr. 
Ayre has not yet read it.

    Of course, by the same token, the Holocaust deniers could just as
easily produce a replicable experiment which shows that prussian blue
forms in greater quantities than found at Auschwitz even under the
conditions described by, e.g., Alter Fajnzylberg.  Yet in typical fashion
Mr. Ayre insists those who believe in the Holocaust are the ones who must
spend the time and money. 


>Experiments have been done on cyanides for many years now, and I
>seriously doubt that the chemists who produced the report that Mr. Ayre
>cannot understand need to repeat them all just to satisfy him.
>
>>	They do not, after all, lack in talented people to help them in
>>	devising this experiment.
>
>Unfortunately, Mr. Ayre and his ilk do lack talented people to
>interpret the results of such a test.  If Mr. Ayre could understand the
>science of chemistry he would not be making demands for unnecessary
>experiments.

    Here, however, I must disagree.  Brian Harmon has produced what I
consider a credible theory, based on the kinetics of formation of
ferrocyanic compounds, of why less prussian blue would be formed in the
first place under the conditions described for homicidal gassing than in
delousing chambers.  But it is still a _theory_.  Any scientist worthy of
the name will tell you that it can and should be subjected to experimental
test.  Unfortunately, that is rather difficult and expensive. 

    Yet that is not the main difficulty I see.  I do not think I am being
paranoid when I say that even if I were somehow to come up with the money
to design and conduct such an experiment, and it supported Brian Harmon's
theory, I would see at least a few people insisting that somehow I had
misdesigned the experiment, or fudged the results, or something.  Of
course, I recognize that this would probably happen on the other side if
the IHR sponsored such an experiment and the results appeared to disprove
Brian's theory. 

    So I think that if such an experiment is ever to be conducted,
the best and safest way to proceed is through a collaborative effort
similar to the one proposed for the Himmler tapes (which no denier except
Milton Kleim signed up for).  It would require a mutually agreed
experimental design, in advance, and the provision of sufficient 
funding.  I know there must be _some_ money floating around on the 
revisionist side, as there was that $50,000 reward offer (and $90,000 
payment to Mel Mermelstein).

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca Sun Sep  3 09:18:20 PDT 1995
Article: 5928 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!not-for-mail
From: kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Who Owns IHR?
Date: 3 Sep 1995 00:42:59 -0700
Organization: The Nizkor Project
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NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.almanac.bc.ca

In article <42asls$9e0@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu>, cacst9+@pitt.edu (Cecelia A Clancy) wrote:

>In article <427ce2$krd@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>,
>Ken McVay OBC  wrote:

>>See _The IHR Update_, July '95, page 2...

>Ken, what is _The IHR Update_?

Presumably, a publication of the IHR.

>If it is put out be IHR itself, you cannot trust what it says in there.

Given their track record, I would have to agree.

>Do you have _The IHR Update_, July '95, page 2 online?  If so, can you
>e-mail me a copy?

I have not seen hard copy, so I cannot assert with certainty
that what I _have_ seen is factual.

Having said that, I can say that a member of the Nizkor
research team, a librarian in a major American city, has told
me that he has a copy of this document, and that, on page two,
we find (quoting private email):

[begin quote]

_IHR Update_, no. 2 (July 1995) contains an article called "Thank you,
Tom" on pages 2 and 3.  The following is from page 2:

"Thank you, Tom"

	"After 14 years of dedicated service with the Institute for
Historical Review, Tom Marcellus has left.

	He had been planning to leave for more than a year, but put off
this move until he felt confident that the IHR had weathered the worst of
the storm of Carto's lawsuit and propaganda campaign.  Tom has been
helping to ensure a smooth transition to new leadership.

	In March the corporate Board of Directors appointed Mark Weber as
the new IHR Director, and Greg Raven as the new chief executive officer
and corporate President.

	... {snip}"

[The rest of the article talks about Marcellus' accomplishments with the IHR]

[end email quote]

Now - I have sent requests for hard copy to dozens of folks on
the net who might be able to provide it, but (given the
holiday weekend) have received no response. Because I cannot
independently verify this material, I have delayed my response
to Mr. Raven.

However, when I have hard copy, I will most certainly post it
here - until I do, the point remains moot.

-- 
     The Nizkor Project: An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
                   Anonymous ftp: ftp.almanac.bc.ca
Nizkor Web: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction - permanently!)
   Kenneth McVay OBC.  Home Page: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/~kmcvay/


From A_Baron@abaron.demon.co.uk Sun Sep  3 09:18:20 PDT 1995
Article: 5936 of alt.revisionism
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From: Alexander Baron 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Yet another personal attack ...
Date: Sat, 02 Sep 95 20:35:09 GMT
Organization: InfoText Manuscripts
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <810074109snz@abaron.demon.co.uk>
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In article  dkeren@world.std.com "Daniel Keren" writes:

> Alexander Baron  writes:
> 
> # What about the man who sent a letter to a Jewish lawyer
> # addressed "To the Jew lawyer". The Jew sued him and he was
> # fined 25 Marks.
> 
> And when did this take place?

c1935, it's one of many amazing things I found in the Jewish Chronicle.

-- 
Alexander Baron

"He who cannot reason is a fool; he who will not is a bigot; he who dare
not is a slave." - W. Drummond


From A_Baron@abaron.demon.co.uk Sun Sep  3 09:18:21 PDT 1995
Article: 5937 of alt.revisionism
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From: Alexander Baron 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Yet another personal attack ...
Date: Sat, 02 Sep 95 20:37:08 GMT
Organization: InfoText Manuscripts
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <810074228snz@abaron.demon.co.uk>
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In article  dkeren@world.std.com "Daniel Keren" writes:

> Alexander Baron  writes:
 
> Excerpts from Opinion and Sentence of the Nuernberg Special Court in
> the Katzenberger Case
> [Trials of War Criminals Before the Nuernberg Military Tribunals -
> Washington, U.S Govt. Print. Off., 1949-1953, Vol. III, 653-663]
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> Findings:
> 
> 1. The defendant Katzenberger is fully Jewish and a German national; he
>    is a member of the Jewish religious community...

> As the only feasible answer to the frivolous conduct of the defendant,
> the court therefore deems it necessary to pronounce the death sentence
> as the heaviest punishment provided by section 4 of the decree
> against public enemies...

Off-hand I would say this is a fake; there was though one case where a Jew
was victimised for reasons other than his race; I can't recall the details
at the moment but will check it out when I have time.

-- 
Alexander Baron

"He who cannot reason is a fool; he who will not is a bigot; he who dare
not is a slave." - W. Drummond


From dkeren@world.std.com Sun Sep  3 12:24:41 PDT 1995
Article: 5963 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
Subject: Re: Cyanide compounds cannot be leached?
Message-ID: 
Organization: The World, Public Access Internet, Brookline, MA
References:  <422p5c$hp0@calvino.alaska.net>  <42bk33$9o0@calvino.alaska.net>
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 1995 07:59:09 GMT
Lines: 31

I see that no matter how many times the nonsense about the
cyanide trace is refuted, we still see it reappear here
and there. Incredible.

Humans die much faster from HCN poisoning than lice, bugs
etc. HCN kills humans fast, in a matter of minutes (that's
why it's still used to execute people in gas chambers in US
prisons); also, the concentration needed is quite low. However,
delousing takes many hours and requires a higher concentration.

Therefore, the gas chambers were exposed to the gas for a far
shorter time than the delousing chambers, which is why there
are less cyanide traces in them. Moreover, they were destroyed
and left in ruins, as opposed to the delousing chambers; and
the elements further reduced the traces.

Tests made immediately after the war did recover high
concentrations of cyanide compounds in the ventilation grills of
Krema III (see Pressac's book for details).

Lastly, many short exposures to HCN result in less traces than
one long exposure of the same total duration. The exposures
in homicidal gassing were short, and the HCN didn't have much
time to interact with the wall material. This is yet another
reason why less compounds were formed in the gas chambers
than in the delousing chambers.


-Danny Keren.




From gmcfee@ibm.net Sun Sep  3 12:24:43 PDT 1995
Article: 5981 of alt.revisionism
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From: gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Yet another personal attack ...
Date: 3 Sep 1995 17:18:16 GMT
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In message <809904547snz@abaron.demon.co.uk> - Alexander Baron  writes:
:>
:>In article  dkeren@world.std.com "Daniel Keren" writes:
:>
:>> PS - according to Nazi laws, a Jew who was accused of having sex
:>> with a "pure-blooded German woman" was sentenced to death. I have
:>> some transcripts from a trial in which a Jewish man (Katzenberger)
:>> was tried for this.
:>
:>What about the man who sent a letter to a Jewish lawyer addressed "To the
:>Jew lawyer". The Jew sued him and he was fined 25 Marks.

I can produce the Katzenberger transcript, Al.  Can you produce the documents 
around the 25 Mark fine?




Gord McFee 
"I'll write no line before its time"



From dkeren@world.std.com Sun Sep  3 23:23:04 PDT 1995
Article: 6026 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
Subject: Re: Yet another personal attack ...
Message-ID: 
Organization: The World, Public Access Internet, Brookline, MA
References:  <809904547snz@abaron.demon.co.uk>  <810074228snz@abaron.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 1995 22:20:38 GMT
Lines: 19

Alexander Baron  writes:

[About a court's order to execute a Jew for allegedly having
 sex with a "pure-blooded German woman"]

# Off-hand I would say this is a fake;

That's because you have nothing to say.

You still wonder why people call you a zero?

You just have nothing to say, no proof that it's a fake,
soon you'll claim that the Nurnberg laws are a fake too, right?

Would you grow up, you pathetic clown?


-Danny Keren.



From gmcfee@ibm.net Sun Sep  3 23:23:06 PDT 1995
Article: 6061 of alt.revisionism
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From: gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Yet another personal attack ...
Date: 4 Sep 1995 01:44:28 GMT
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <42dlls$1oeq@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
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In message <810074228snz@abaron.demon.co.uk> - Alexander Baron  writes:
:>
:>In article  dkeren@world.std.com "Daniel Keren" writes:
:>
:>> Alexander Baron  writes:
:> 
:>> Excerpts from Opinion and Sentence of the Nuernberg Special Court in
:>> the Katzenberger Case
:>> [Trials of War Criminals Before the Nuernberg Military Tribunals -
:>> Washington, U.S Govt. Print. Off., 1949-1953, Vol. III, 653-663]
:>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
:>> Findings:
:>> 
:>> 1. The defendant Katzenberger is fully Jewish and a German national; he
:>>    is a member of the Jewish religious community...
:>
:>> As the only feasible answer to the frivolous conduct of the defendant,
:>> the court therefore deems it necessary to pronounce the death sentence
:>> as the heaviest punishment provided by section 4 of the decree
:>> against public enemies...
:>
:>Off-hand I would say this is a fake; there was though one case where a Jew
:>was victimised for reasons other than his race; I can't recall the details
:>at the moment but will check it out when I have time.

You're treading on thin ice with this one, Al, and showing your lack of 
knowledge as well.  This particular transcript has been conclusively proven 
to be true.




Gord McFee 
"I'll write no line before its time"



From staff@rabbit.augs.se Mon Sep  4 23:06:54 PDT 1995
Article: 6095 of alt.revisionism
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Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
From: staff@rabbit.augs.se (Staffan Friberg)
Subject: Re: Let's hear both sides of the Holocaust story
References:   <41nog9$nq9@calvino.alaska.net> <420ts5$2ie@enigma.uniserve.com> <42bf61$9o0@calvino.alaska.net>
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In article <42bf61$9o0@calvino.alaska.net>
Henry Ayre  writes:

> Rather than occupy bandwidth repeating so much exterminationist 
> clap-trap, I will only remark that I seemed to have pushed all your 
> buttons at once when I remarked that a real debate (meaning an 
> honest-to-God debate) is going on concerning the reality of the 
> "holocaust." I applaud the free speech that the Internet and Usenet 
> provide. Is it my imagination or do similarities exist between the 
> efforts of the "Church" of Scientology to stifle criticism (on the Net or 
> elsewhere) and the same desire of exterminationists to make detractors 
> "go away" by any means possible? Which leads to the question, I suppose, 
> Are the minds of exterminationists plagued by billions of not yet 
> exorcised body thetans?  H. Ayre.

Exactly what do you want to discuss, Mr. Ayre? Just pick a subject, post
someting about it and see if anyone has a comment.

This whining doesn't make anyone happy, if you want a discussion then go
ahead and start a discussion. What's stopping you?

-- 

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+ Staffan Friberg +                  +  EMail: staff@rabbit.augs.se    +
+                 +                  +  FidoNet 2:204/204.2 or         +
+ Sweden          +                  +          2:204/418.9            +
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"Den som kan vara glad i dagens läge är en fiende till allt vad
intelligens heter."  (Arne Anka)


From gmcfee@ibm.net Wed Sep  6 23:03:25 PDT 1995
Article: 6313 of alt.revisionism
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From: gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Yet another personal attack ...
Date: 7 Sep 1995 01:04:55 GMT
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <42lgfn$uqs@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
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In message <810159246snz@abaron.demon.co.uk> - Alexander Baron  writes:
:>
:>In article <42co0o$nvi@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
:>           gmcfee@ibm.net "Gord McFee" writes:
:> 
:>> I can produce the Katzenberger transcript, Al.  Can you produce the documents 
:>> around the 25 Mark fine?
:>
:>Yes.

Well, with all due respect, produce 'em!

(The Katzenberger verdict has laready been posted.)


Gord McFee 
"I'll write no line before its time"



From ibokor@metz.une.edu.au Thu Sep  7 07:31:11 PDT 1995
Article: 6359 of alt.revisionism
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From: ibokor@metz.une.edu.au (ibokor)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Cyanide compounds cannot be leached?
Date: 7 Sep 1995 09:01:52 GMT
Organization: University of New England, NSW, Australia
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Barry Shein (bzs@world.std.com) wrote:

: Oh but let's be realistic, Danny. How can you expect Mr Ayre to accept
: measurements made by scientists right after the war when he has the
: fastidious research done 40 years later by Fred Leuchter, a man with a
: bachelor's degree in history!
: 
: After all, only Leuchter's findings agree with what Mr Ayre wants to
: believe, so that is all that counts!
: 
: Next we can go on to denier literature claiming that the gas chamber
: Leuchter measured was a post-war fabrication, and why it would have
: any cyanide traces at all!
: 
: -- 
:         -Barry Shein

The answer, Barry, is obvious.
The stingy, Jewish, Communist, homosexual, black, Chinese, lesbian
feminist, anarchist, AIDS-ridden international conspirators used
dismantled delousing chambers they found while trying to find
Dolf's bunkers at the South Pole --- notice the connection? South
Pole/Southern Poland/Auschwitz? --- to rebuild it! They spare
no trouble or expense to fabricate "evidence". Next they'll
try to prove that Dolf doesn't have a squadron of flying saucers
ready and waiting for the right moment!!!


d.A.


From greg.ihr@kaiwan.com Thu Sep  7 23:52:28 PDT 1995
Article: 6488 of alt.revisionism
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.society.conservatism,alt.society.civil-liberty,alt.sex.pedophilia,alt.sex.homosexual,alt.sex.advocacy,alt.revisionism,alt.religion.wicca,alt.religion.sexuality,alt.religion.christianity,alt.religion.broadcast,alt.radio.whadya-know,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.sex,alt.politics.media,alt.politics.homosexuality,alt.politics.homosexual
Subject: Re: New Book, THE PINK SWASTIKA
Date: 8 Sep 1995 02:35:46 GMT
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
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In article <422s53$8c8@news.netvision.net.il>, kevina@netvision.net.il wrote:

> Has anyone read THE PINK SWASTIKA yet???
> 
> This new and important book documents the homoerotic and 
> black occult foundations of Nazi militarism and the Holocaust.
> 
> Order by calling 1-800-828-2290

Could you please explain something for us. Immediately after the war, we
were told that one of the reasons Hitler and Co. were so evil was that
they were sexual perverts. More recently, we have been told that Hitler
and Co. actually persecuted sexual perverts. Now, we are again being told
that Hitler and Co. were themselves perverts. How is one supposed to sort
all this out?

-- 
Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
Or, come visit my home page at http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr
The Institute for Historical Review can be reached at:
P.O. Box 241556, Newport Beach, CA 92659


From ibokor@metz.une.edu.au Thu Sep  7 23:52:29 PDT 1995
Article: 6489 of alt.revisionism
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From: ibokor@metz.une.edu.au (ibokor)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Yet another personal attack ...
Date: 8 Sep 1995 02:00:53 GMT
Organization: University of New England, NSW, Australia
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Alexander Baron (A_Baron@abaron.demon.co.uk) wrote:
: In article <42co0o$nvi@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
:            gmcfee@ibm.net "Gord McFee" writes:
:  
: > I can produce the Katzenberger transcript, Al.  Can you produce the documents 
: > around the 25 Mark fine?
: 
: Yes.
: 

Well?


From greg.ihr@kaiwan.com Fri Sep  8 00:04:39 PDT 1995
Article: 6492 of alt.revisionism
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: EVERYTHING ABOUT IT (AUSCHWITZ I) IS FALSE
Date: 8 Sep 1995 02:40:24 GMT
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 21
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In article <42co1k$nvi@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>, gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord
McFee) wrote:


> Note that the "tout y est faux" quote clearly refers to some of the 
> dimensions, the placement of the doors, and so on being incorrect, and *not* 
> that the gas chamber is a fake.

How do you know the "gas chamber" is not a fake ... do you have drawings
or photos of the non-fake "gas chamber"? 

Whether or not you do, I think you have missed the point. The point is
that the L'Express article has said basically the same thing that David
Irving said, only Irving was fined thousands of dollars for it and (so
far) L'Express was not.

-- 
Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
Or, come visit my home page at http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr
The Institute for Historical Review can be reached at:
P.O. Box 241556, Newport Beach, CA 92659


From cacst9+@pitt.edu Fri Sep  8 08:06:27 PDT 1995
Article: 6501 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!van-bc!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!cacst9
From: cacst9+@pitt.edu (Cecelia A Clancy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Mr. Raven, I have some questions. (was Re: Mr. Raven, I demand)
Date: 8 Sep 1995 03:11:50 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
Lines: 29
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In article ,
Greg Raven  wrote:
>
>Yikes! And this from someone who once apologized for misquoting me, and
>promised to alter his quote to accurately reflect what I wrote ...
>
>-- 
>Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)

Greg, now that you are here, please post here how the Board of Directors
of IHR is selected, who selects them, and who these borad members are.

Plese either post of send me information of the Carto lawsuit stuff.

Is IHR still tied to Noontide Press?

Is IHR still owned by the League for the Survival of Freedom?

What is Willis Carto's relationship, if any to IHR today?

Does Mark Weber have an e-mail address?

Where is Tom Marcellus now?



Cecelia Clancy  cacst9+@pitt.edu  (412) 441-2231  P.O. Box 71222
                                                  Pittsburgh, PA 15213
***********************************************************************


From mstein@access4.digex.net Fri Sep  8 08:06:28 PDT 1995
Article: 6502 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!wave.news.pipex.net!pipex!dish.news.pipex.net!pipex!bt!btnet!uunet!in1.uu.net!news3.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mr. Raven, I demand a retraction, an apology, or a defense
Date: 8 Sep 1995 00:02:28 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 32
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In article ,
Greg Raven  wrote:
>In article , jamie@voyager.net
>(Jamie McCarthy) wrote:
>
>> (snip)
>
>
>Yikes! And this from someone who once apologized for misquoting me, and
>promised to alter his quote to accurately reflect what I wrote ...

    Assuming that you are representing history accurately - after all, you
could only know this from having seen it, which makes it eyewitness
testimony, which as you know is not at all reliable - such an action
doesn't seem to be consistent with your personal attack on Jamie that he
deliberately mischaracterized what you said in order to cast further
aspersions on you.

    However, this evades the question of what specific thing on his Web 
site was misquoted.  You have not established this.

    Also, when are you going to apologize for your blatant and highly
deceptive distortion of what Pressac said about the testimony of Bo"ck?
Given your own well-documented history of misquotes and
mischaracterizations, your righteous indignation is monumentally
hypocritical. 

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mprice@Ra.MsState.Edu Fri Sep  8 08:06:30 PDT 1995
Article: 6514 of alt.revisionism
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From: "Marty G. Price" 
Newsgroups: alt.society.conservatism,alt.society.civil-liberty,alt.sex.pedophilia,alt.sex.homosexual,alt.revisionism,alt.religion.wicca,alt.religion.sexuality,alt.religion.broadcast,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.sex,alt.politics.media,alt.politics.homosexuality
Subject: Re: New Book, THE PINK SWASTIKA
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 1995 08:16:37 -0500
Organization: Mississippi State University
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On 8 Sep 1995, Michael P. Stein wrote:

>     Followups trimmed.
> 
>     ... but some
> closeted homosexuals have in fact railed against gays in public even as
> they secretly practiced it themselves.  There was a prominent conservative
> activist a few years ago who publicly promoted good Christian family
> values right up until his death from complications related to AIDS.  I'm
> going on memory, but I believe his name was Terry Dolan. 
> 
Correct.  And how about Roy Cohn (did I get his name right? it's 7:00am), 
who gives a bad name to any group he was a part of.  He died of AIDS.  At 
one time he allegedly stated, "I'm a heterosexual who fucks boys."

IMO (ie., DANGER, pontification follows):  There is no correlation between
sexual preference and evil; however, there appears to be a correlation
between lust-for-power and the inability to empathize with one's own
social group, not to mention humanity at large. 

Blessed Be,

Red Deer


From mstein@access5.digex.net Fri Sep  8 08:06:32 PDT 1995
Article: 6533 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!agate!spool.mu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news1.digex.net!news3.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Please document this claim, Mr. Raven
Date: 8 Sep 1995 10:07:07 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 38
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In article ,
Greg Raven  wrote:
>You are correct, of course. When dealing with eyewitnesses to gassings,
>one must refer to Auschwitz commandant Rudolf Hoess, who, I believe,
>claimed that the "body handlers" would move the bodies shortly after a
>gassing, smoking and eating all the while.

    I have been unable to find the literature reference to this.  I've 
asked for it several times.  The closest I've come is a citation from 
Hoess's autobiography where he discusses seeing the SK members smoking 
and eating, but nothing about eating in the gas chambers.  In the open 
air, of course, there would be no problem.  As a matter of fact, in 
Kremas II and III, which had forced air extraction systems, there would 
be no problem either once the ventilation cycle had completed.

    When you say "I belive [Hoess claimed this]," I take it as an
admission that you are relying on memory, which as you keep telling us is
highly unreliable.  Therefore I must ask you to document this claim, Mr.
Raven.  Please give full bibliographic information - editor/translator,
title, publisher, edition, and page number(s) - and please quote (not
parahprase) in complete paragraphs without the use of ellipsis dots. 

    Otherwise, we shall be forced to conclude that you have no evidence 
at all that Hoess said any such thing.


>"Underpants and a gas mask," indeed!

    Why not?  It's not quite true that there is _no_ danger of cyanide
absorption through the skin, but the danger is far, far less than from
inhalation.  Even Friedrich Berg has admitted this.  Obviously Mr. Raven
has not kept up with the latest in revisionist scholarship. 

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From greg.ihr@kaiwan.com Fri Sep  8 08:06:32 PDT 1995
Article: 6534 of alt.revisionism
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mr. Raven, I have some questions.
Date: 8 Sep 1995 14:11:18 GMT
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 41
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In article <42oc9m$sbh@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu>, cacst9+@pitt.edu (Cecelia
A Clancy) wrote:


> Greg, now that you are here, please post here how the Board of Directors
> of IHR is selected, who selects them, and who these borad members are.

The IHR does not have a board of directors.

> Plese either post of send me information of the Carto lawsuit stuff.

There are nearly a dozen lawsuits, and mountains of paper have been
generated. Can you be more specific in your request?

> Is IHR still tied to Noontide Press?

No, and it never was. The IHR and Noontide Press are both dbas for the
same parent company.

> Is IHR still owned by the League for the Survival of Freedom?

In a manner of speaking.

> What is Willis Carto's relationship, if any to IHR today?

Chief adversary.

> Does Mark Weber have an e-mail address?

No.

> Where is Tom Marcellus now?

Probably at his computer at home here in Southern California, happily
earning a living.

-- 
Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
Or, come visit my home page at http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr
The Institute for Historical Review can be reached at:
P.O. Box 241556, Newport Beach, CA 92659


From mstein@access5.digex.net Fri Sep  8 08:06:33 PDT 1995
Article: 6536 of alt.revisionism
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From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: HUMAN SKIN LAMPSHADES - A CRUEL ABERRATION
Date: 8 Sep 1995 10:21:28 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
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In article ,
Greg Raven  wrote:
>In article , karlpov@access5.digex.net (Charles
>R.L. Power) wrote:
>
>> [...] I have been through dozens of volumes on the Holocaust 
>> trying to track this stuff down, and the fact is that it is extremely hard
>> to find *any mention* of the lampshade story. Yes, lampshades and soap are
>> popular icons of the Holocaust, and probably shouldn't be; our point is 
>> that they *do* have a basis in documented fact, however much you prefer
>> to ignore all testimony of atrocities commited by Axis powers, or to pretend
>> that it's all make-believe. Nice to see that you're qualifying your still
>> rigid ideological stance by avoiding instantly describing such information
>> as "nonsense". Who knows, maybe you are learning something.
>> 
>> My experience here is that all discussion of lampshades and soap has been
>> initiated by deniers; we on the other side recognize that these matters
>> are atypical and relatively unimportant compared to that other matter you
>> still can't stand to recognize, the systematic, gratuitous murder of 
>> millions of human beings on the basis not of military or political
>> expediency but simply of their ancestry.
>
>That's a very enlightened stance. So enlightened, in fact, that it could
>see you jailed and fined in France (and possibly Germany and elsewhere).

    I do not see anything in Mr. Powers's post which would run afoul of
those laws.  Where did you get your law degree, Mr. Raven - the same
school from which Fred Leuchter got his engineering degree?  Please back
up your claim that the viewpoint expressed would violate the laws of any
country.  Otherwise, we shall be forced to conclude that you are just 
making this up.


>One good reference to human skin lampshades and other atrocities is the
>Nuremberg Trials documentation, which even includes photos of the
>artifacts. You are safe enough here in the United States saying that the
>Nuremberg Tribunal was wrong, but don't try that abroad.

    Indeed, you can certainly say the Tribunal was wrong.  But your saying
so doesn't make it a fact.  What is your evidence that the Nuremberg
Tribunal was wrong?  Please present it.

    Posted/emailed.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From greg.ihr@kaiwan.com Fri Sep  8 08:06:34 PDT 1995
Article: 6537 of alt.revisionism
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: The Liberation of the Camps
Date: 8 Sep 1995 14:18:34 GMT
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
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The Liberation of the Camps: Facts vs. Lies

Theodore J. O¹Keefe

Earlier this year countless newspaper and magazine feature articles and
special television broadcasts recalled the liberation 50 years ago by
American, British and Soviet troops of German concentration camps. As the
following essay shows, many of these retrospective articles and reports
grossly distort reality.

Nothing has been more effective in establishing the authenticity of the
Holocaust story in the minds

of Americans than the terrible scenes US troops discovered when they
entered German concentration camps at the close of World War II.

At Dachau, Buchenwald, Dora, Mauthausen, and other work and detention
camps, horrified US infantrymen encountered heaps of dead and dying
inmates, emaciated and diseased. Survivors told them hair-raising stories
of torture and slaughter, and backed up their claims by showing the GIs
crematory ovens, alleged execution gas chambers, supposed implements of
torture, and even shrunken heads and lampshades, gloves, and handbags
purportedly made from skin flayed from dead inmates.

US government authorities, mindful that many Americans who remembered the
atrocity stories fed them during World War I still doubted the Allied
propaganda directed against the Hitler regime, resolved to ³document² what
the GIs had found in the camps. Prominent newsmen and politicians were
flown in to see the harrowing evidence, while the US Army Signal Corps
filmed and photographed the scenes for posterity. Famous journalist Edward
R. Murrow reported, in tones of horror, but no longer of disbelief, what
he had been told and shown, and Dachau and Buchenwald were branded on the
hearts and minds of the American populace as names of infamy unmatched in
the sad and bloody history of this planet.

For Americans, what was ³discovered² at the camps ‹ the dead and the
diseased, the terrible stories of the inmates, all the props of torture
and terror ‹ became the basis not simply of a transitory propaganda
campaign but of the conviction that, yes, it was true: the Germans did
exterminate six million Jews, most of them in lethal gas chambers.

What the GIs found was used, by way of films that were mandatory viewing
for the vanquished populace of Germany, to ³re-educate² the German people
by destroying their national pride and their will to a united, independent
national state, imposing in their place overwhelming feelings of
collective guilt and political impotence. And when the testimony, and the
verdict, of the Nuremberg Tribunal incorporated most, if not all, of the
horror stories Americans were told about Dachau, Buchenwald, and other
places captured by the US Army, the Holocaust could pass for one of the
most documented, one of the most authenticated, one of the most proven
historical episodes in the human record.

A Different Reality

But it is known today that, very soon after the liberation of the camps,
American authorities were aware that the real story of the camps was quite
different from the one in which they were coaching military public
information officers, government spokesmen, politicians, journalists, and
other mouthpieces.

When American and British forces overran western and central Germany in
the spring of 1945, they were followed by troops charged with discovering
and securing any evidence of German war crimes.

Among them was Dr. Charles Larson, one of America¹s leading forensic
pathologists, who was assigned to the US Army¹s Judge Advocate General¹s
Department. As part of a US War Crimes Investigation Team, Dr. Larson
performed autopsies at Dachau and some twenty other German camps,
examining on some days more than 100 corpses. After his grim work at
Dachau, he was questioned for three days by US Army prosecutors.1

Dr. Larson¹s findings? In an 1980 newspaper interview he said: ³What we¹ve
heard is that six million Jews were exterminated. Part of that is a
hoax.²2 And what part was the hoax? Dr. Larson, who told his biographer
that to his knowledge he ³was the only forensic pathologist on duty in the
entire European Theater² of Allied military operations,3 confirmed that
³never was a case of poison gas uncovered.²4

Typhus, Not Poison Gas

If not by gassing, how did the unfortunate victims at Dachau, Buchenwald
and Bergen-Belsen perish? Were they tortured to death or deliberately
starved? The answers to these questions are known as well.

As Dr. Larson and other Allied medical men discovered, the chief cause of
death at Dachau, Belsen and the other camps was disease, above all typhus,
an old and terrible scourge of mankind that until recently flourished in
places where populations were crowded together in circumstances where
public health measures were unknown or had broken down. Such was the case
in the overcrowded internment camps in Germany at war¹s end, where,
despite such measures as systematic delousing, quarantine of the sick and
cremation of the dead, the virtual collapse of Germany¹s food, transport,
and public health systems led to catastrophe.

Perhaps the most authoritative statement of the facts as to typhus and
mortality in the camps has been made by Dr. John E. Gordon, M.D., Ph.D., a
professor of preventive medicine and epidemiology at the Harvard
University School of Public Health, who was with US forces in Germany in
1945. Dr. Gordon reported in 1948 that ³The outbreaks in concentration
camps and prisons made up the great bulk of typhus infection encountered
in Germany.² Dr. Gordon summarized the causes for the outbreaks as
follows:5 

Germany in the spring months of April and May [1945] was an astounding
sight, a mixture of humanity travelling this way and that, homeless, often
hungry and carrying typhus with them Š

 Germany was in chaos. The destruction of whole cities and the path left
by advancing armies produced a disruption of living conditions
contributing to the spread of the disease. Sanitation was low grade,
public utilities were seriously disrupted, food supply and food
distribution was poor, housing was inadequate and order and discipline
were everywhere lacking. Still more important, a shifting of populations
was occurring such as few countries and few times have experienced.

Dr. Gordon¹s findings are corroborated by Dr. Russell Barton, today a
psychiatrist of international repute, who entered Bergen-Belsen with
British forces as a young medical student in 1945. Barton, who volunteered
to care for the diseased survivors, testified under sworn oath in a
Toronto courtroom in 1985 that ³Thousands of prisoners who died at the
Bergen-Belsen concentration camp during World War II weren¹t deliberately
starved to death but died from a rash of diseases.²6 

Dr. Barton further testified that on entering the camp he had credited
stories of deliberate starvation but decided such stories were untrue
after inspecting the well equipped kitchens and the meticulously
maintained ledgers, dating back to 1942, of food cooked and dispensed each
day.

Despite noisily publicized claims and widespread popular notions to the
contrary, no researcher has been able to document a German policy of
extermination through starvation in the German camps.

No ŒHuman Skin¹ Lampshades

What of the ghoulish stories of concentration camp inmates skinned for
their tattoos, flayed to make lampshades and handbags, or other artifacts?
What of the innumerable ³torture racks,² ³meathooks,² whipping posts,
gallows, and other tools of torment and death that are reported to have
abounded at every German camp? These allegations, and even more grotesque
ones proffered by Soviet prosecutors, found their way into the record at
Nuremberg.

The lampshade and tattooed-skin charges were made against Ilse Koch,
dubbed by journalists the ³Bitch of Buchenwald,² who was reported to have
furnished her house with objects manufactured from the tanned hides of
luckless inmates.

But General Lucius Clay, military governor of the US zone of occupied
Germany, who reviewed her case in 1948, told his superiors in Washington:
³There is no convincing evidence that she [Ilse Koch] selected inmates for
extermination in order to secure tattooed skins or that she possessed any
articles made of human skin.²7 In an interview General Clay gave years
later, he stated about the material for the infamous lampshades: ³Well, it
turned out actually that is was goat flesh. But at the trial it was still
human flesh. It was almost impossible for her to have gotten a fair
trial.²8 Ilse Koch hanged herself in a German jail in 1967.

US Senator Alben Barkley, a member of a special American congressional
committee, views bodies of prisoners at the recently liberated Buchenwald
camp, April 1945.

It would be tedious to itemize and refute the thousands of bizarre claims
as to Nazi atrocities. That there were instances of German cruelty,
however, is clear from the testimony of Dr. Konrad Morgen, a legal
investigator attached to the Reich Criminal Police, whose statements on
the witness stand at Nuremberg have never been challenged by proponents of
the Jewish Holocaust story. Dr. Morgen informed the court that he had been
given full authority by Heinrich Himmler, commander of Hitler¹s SS and the
dread Gestapo, to enter any German concentration camp and investigate
instances of cruelty and corruption on the part of camp personnel.

As he explained in sworn testimony at Nuremberg, Dr. Morgen investigated
800 such cases, resulting in more than 200 convictions.9 Punishments
included the death penalty for the worst offenders, including Hermann
Florstedt, commandant of Lublin (Majdanek), and Karl Koch (Ilse¹s
husband), commandant of Buchenwald.

While German camp commandants in certain cases did inflict physical
punishment, such acts had to be approved by authorities in Berlin, and it
was required that a camp physician first certify the good health of the
prisoner to be disciplined, and then be on hand at the actual beating.10
After all, throughout most of the war the camps were important centers of
industrial activity. The good health and morale of the prisoners was
critical to the German war effort, as is evidenced in a January 1943 order
issued by SS General Richard Glücks, chief of the office that supervised
the concentration camps. It held the camp commanders ³personally
responsible for exhausting every possibility to preserve the physical
strength of the detainees.²11 

Camp Survivors: Merely Victims?

US Army investigators, working at Buchenwald and other camps, quickly
ascertained what was common knowledge among veteran inmates: that the
worst offenders, the cruelest denizens of the camps were not the guards
but the prisoners themselves. Common criminals of the same stripe as those
who populate US prisons today committed many villainies, particularly when
they held positions of authority, and fanatical Communists, highly
organized to combat their many political enemies among the inmates,
eliminated their foes with Stalinist ruthlessness.

Two US Army investigators at Buchenwald, Egon W. Fleck and Edward A.
Tenenbaum, carefully investigated circumstances in the camp before its
liberation. In a detailed report submitted to their superiors, they
revealed, in the words of Alfred Toombs, their commander, who wrote a
preface to the report, ³how the prisoners themselves organized a deadly
terror within the Nazi terror.²12 

Fleck and Tenenbaum described the power exercised by criminals and
Communists as follows:

The trusties, who in time became almost exclusively Communist Germans, had
the power of life and death over all other inmates. They could sentence a
man or a group to almost certain death Š The Communist trusties were
directly responsible for a large part of the brutalities at Buchenwald.

Colonel Donald B. Robinson, chief historian of the American military
government in Germany, summarized the Fleck-Tenenbaum report in an article
published in an American magazine shortly after the war. Colonel Robinson
wrote succinctly of the American investigators¹ findings: ³It appeared
that the prisoners who agreed with the Communists ate; those who didn¹t
starved to death.²13 

Additional corroboration of inmate brutality has been provided by Ellis E.
Spackman, who, as Chief of Counter-Intelligence Arrests and Detentions for
the US Seventh Army, was involved in the liberation of Dachau. Spackman,
later a professor of history at San Bernardino Valley College in
California, wrote in 1966 that at Dachau ³the prisoners were the actual
instruments that inflicted the barbarities on their fellow prisoners.²14 

ŒGas Chambers¹

In December 1944 US Army officers Colonel Paul Kirk and Lt. Colonel Edward
J. Gully inspected the German concentration camp at Struthof-Natzweiler in
Alsace. They submitted their findings to their superiors at the
headquarters of the US 6th Army Group, which subsequently forwarded their
report to the US War Crimes Division. While, significantly, the full text
of their report has never been published, it has been revealed, by a
historian supportive of Holocaust claims, that the two investigators were
careful to characterize equipment exhibited to them by French informants
as a ³so-called lethal gas chamber,² and to claim it was ³allegedly used
as a lethal gas chamber.²15 (Emphasis added)

Both the careful phraseology of the Natzweiler report, and its effective
suppression, stand in stark contrast to the credulity, the confusion, and
the blaring publicity that accompanied official reports of alleged gas
chambers at Dachau. At first, a US Army photo depicting a GI gazing at a
steel door marked with a skull and crossbones and the German words for:
³Caution! Gas! Mortal danger! Don¹t open!,² was identified as showing the
murder weapon.16 

Later, however, it was evidently decided that the apparatus in question
was merely a standard delousing chamber for clothing, and another alleged
gas chamber, this one cunningly disguised as a shower room, was exhibited
to American congressmen and journalists as the site where thousands
breathed their last. While there exist numerous reports in the press as to
the operation of this second ³gas chamber,² no official report by trained
Army investigators has yet surfaced to reconcile such problems as the
function of the shower heads: Were they ³dummies,² or did lethal cyanide
gas stream through them? (Each theory has appreciable support in
journalistic and historiographical literature.)

As with Dachau, so with Buchenwald, Bergen-Belsen, and the other camps
liberated by the Allies in western Germany. There was no end of propaganda
about ³gas chambers,² ³gas ovens,² and the like, but so far not a single
detailed description of the murder weapon and its function, not a single
report of the kind that is mandatory for the successful prosecution of any
assault or murder case in America at that time and today, has come to
light.

Furthermore, a number of Holocaust authorities have now publicly decreed
that there were no gassings, no extermination camps in Germany after all.
(We are now told that ³gassing² and ³extermination² camps were located
exclusively in what is now Poland, in areas captured by the Soviet Red
Army and made off-limits to western investigators.)

Dr. Martin Broszat of the Munich-based Institute for Contemporary History,
which is funded by the German government, stated categorically in a 1960
letter to the German weekly Die Zeit: ³Neither in Dachau nor in
Bergen-Belsen nor in Buchenwald were Jews or other prisoners gassed.²17
Professional ³Nazi hunter² Simon Wiesenthal stated in 1975 and again in
1993 that ³there were no extermination camps on German soil.²18 

Dachau ³gas chamber² No. 2, which was once presented to a stunned and
grieving world as a weapon that claimed hundreds of thousands of lives, is
now described in the brochure issued to tourists at the modern Dachau
³memorial site² in these words: ³This gas chamber, camouflaged as a shower
room, was not used.²19

The Propaganda Intensifies

Fifty years after American troops entered Dachau, Buchenwald and other
German camps, and trained American investigators established the facts as
to what had gone on in them, the government in Washington, the
entertainment media in Hollywood, and the print media in New York continue
to churn out millions of words and images annually on the horrors of the
camps and the infamy of the Holocaust. Despite the fact that, with the
exception of the defeated Confederacy, no enemy of America has ever so
suffered so complete and devastating defeat as did Germany in 1945, the
mass media and the politicians and bureaucrats behave as if Hitler, his
troops, and his concentration camps continue to exist in an eternal
present, and our opinion makers continue to distort, through ignorance or
malice, the facts about the camps.

Time for the Truth

It is time that the government and the professional historians reveal the
facts about Dachau, Buchenwald and the other camps. It is time they let
the American public know how the inmates died, and how they didn¹t die. It
is time that the claims of mass murder by gassing are clarified and
investigated in the same manner as any other claims of murder. It is time
that the free ride certain groups have enjoyed as the result of
unchallenged Holocaust claims be terminated, just as it is time to end the
scapegoating of other groups, including Germans, eastern Europeans, the
Roman Catholic hierarchy, and the wartime leadership of America and
Britain, either for their alleged role in the Holocaust or their supposed
failure to stop it.

Buchenwald, May 1945. Jewish children detainees leave the recently
liberated camp on a train bound for France.

Above all, it is time that the citizens of this great Republic have the
facts about the camps, facts they have a right to know, a right that is
fundamental to the exercise of their authority and their will in the
governance of their country. As citizens and as taxpayers, Americans of
all ethnic backgrounds, of all faiths, have a basic right and an
overriding interest in determining the facts of incidents that are deemed
by those in positions of power to be significant in determining America¹s
foreign and educational policy, as well as its selection of past events to
be memorialized in our civic life.

Today the alleged facts of the Holocaust are at issue all over the
civilized world. The truth will be decided only by recourse to the facts,
in the public forum: not by concealing the facts, denying the truth,
stonewalling reality. The truth will out, and it is time the government of
this country, and governments and international bodies throughout the
world, make public the evidence of what actually transpired in the German
concentration camps in the years 1933­1945, so that we may put paid to the
lies, without fear or favor, and carry out the work of reconciliation and
renewal that is and must be the granite foundation of mutual tolerance
between peoples and of a peace based on justice.

Summary

The conclusions of the early US Army investigations as to the truth about
the wartime German concentration camps have since been corroborated by all
subsequent investigators and can be summarized:

1. The harrowing scenes of dead and dying inmates were not the result of a
German policy of ³extermination,² but rather the result of epidemics of
typhus and other disease brought about largely by the effects of Allied
aerial attacks.

2. Stories of Nazi supercriminals and sadists who turned Jews and others
into handbags and lampshades for their private profit or amusement were
sick lies or diseased fantasies; indeed, the German authorities punished
corruption and cruelty on the part of camp commanders and guards.

3. On the other hand, portrayals of the newly liberated inmates as saints
and martyrs of Hitlerism were quite often very far from the truth; indeed,
most of the brutalities inflicted on camp detainees were the work of their
fellow prisoners, in contravention of German policy and German orders.

4. The alleged homicidal showers and gas chambers were used either for
bathing camp inmates or delousing their clothes; the claim that they were
used to murder Jews or other human beings is a contemptible fabrication.
Orthodox, Establishment historians and professional ³Nazi-hunters² have
quietly dropped claims that inmates were gassed at Dachau, Buchenwald and
other camps in Germany. They continue, however, to keep silent regarding
the lies about Dachau and Buchenwald, as well as to evade an open
discussion of the evidence for homicidal gassing at Auschwitz and the
other camps captured by the Soviets.

Notes

1. John D. McCallum, Crime Doctor [a biography of Dr. Charles P. Larson]
(Mercer, Wash.: The Writing Works, 1978), pp. 44­46, 59, 69; See also: J.
Cobden, ³The Dachau Gas Chamber Myth,² The Journal of Historical Review,
March­April 1995, pp. 17­18.

2. Jane Floerchinger, ³Concentration Camp Conditions Killed Most Inmates,
Doctor Says,² The Wichita Eagle, April 1, 1980, p. 4C.

3. J. D. McCallum, Crime Doctor (1978), p. 46.

4. The Wichita Eagle, April 1, 1980, p. 4C.

5. John E. Gordon, ³Louse-Borne Typhus Fever in the European Theater of
Operations, U.S. Army, 1945,² in Forest Ray Moulton, editor, Rickettsial
Diseases of Man (Washington, DC: American Academy for the Advancement of
Science, 1948), pp. 16­27. Quoted in: Friedrich P. Berg, ³Typhus and the
Jews,² The Journal of Historical Review, Winter 1988­89, pp. 444­447, and
in Arthur Butz, The Hoax of the Twentieth Century (IHR, 1993), pp. 46­47.

6. ³Disease killed Nazis¹ prisoners, MD says,² Toronto Star, Feb. 8, 1985,
p. A2. On Barton¹s similar testimony in a 1988 Toronto trial, see: Barbara
Kulaszka, ed., Did Six Million Really Die? (Toronto: Samisdat, 1992), pp.
175­180, and, Robert Lenski, The Holocaust on Trial (1990), pp. 157­160,
and, M. Weber, ³Bergen-Belsen Camp: The Suppressed Story,² The Journal of
Historical Review, May­June 1995, pp. 27, 30 (n. 30).

7. ³Clay Explains Cut in Ilse Koch Term,² New York Times, Sept. 24, 1948, p. 3.

8. Interview with Lucius Clay, 1976, Official Proceeding of the George C.
Marshall Research Foundation. Quoted in M. Weber, ³Buchenwald: Legend and
Reality,² The Journal of Historical Review, Winter 1986­87 (Vol. 7, No.
4), pp. 406­407.

9. International Military Tribunal (IMT), Trial of the Major War Criminals
Before the International Military Tribunal (Nuremberg: 1947­1949 [³blue
series²]), Vol. 20, pp. 489, 438.

10. Eugen Kogon The Theory and Practice of Hell (New York: Berkley Books
[pb.], 1984), pp. 108­109. See also: ³Punishment for Mistreating SS Camp
Prisoners,² The Journal of Historical Review, Jan.­Feb. 1995, p. 33.

11. Nuremberg document NO-1523. Published in Trials of War Criminals
Before the Nuernberg Military Tribunal (NMT ³green series²), Vol. 4, pp.
372­373.

12. Egon W. Fleck and Edward A. Tenenbaum, Buchenwald: A Preliminary
Report, US Army, 12th Army Group, April 24, 1945. National Archives, RG
331, SHAEF, G-5, 17.11, Jacket 10, Box 151. Quoted in: M. Weber,
³Buchenwald: Legend and Reality,² The Journal of Historical Review, Winter
1986­87, pp. 408­409.

13. Donald B. Robinson, ³Communist Atrocities at Buchenwald,² American
Mercury, October 1946, pp. 397­404.

14. San Bernardino Sun-Telegram, March 13, 1966. Quoted in: James J.
Martin, The Man Who Invented ŒGenocide¹ (IHR, 1984), pp. 110­111.

15. ³Concentration Camp at Natzwiller [sic],² RG 331, Records of Allied
Operations and Occupation, SHAEF/G-5/2717, Modern Military, National
Archives (Washington, DC). Quoted in: Robert H. Abzug, Inside the Vicious
Heart (New York: Oxford University Press, 1985), pp. 9­10, 181 (n. 5).

16. John Cobden, Dachau: Reality and Myth (IHR, 1994), pp. 25­29. See
also: The Journal of Historical Review, May­June 1993, pp. 9­11; The
Journal of Historical Review, March­ April 1995, p. 16.

17. ³Keine Vergasung in Dachau,² Die Zeit (Hamburg), August 19, 1960.
Facsimile reprint, and English-language translation, in The Journal of
Historical Review, May­June 1993, p. 12.

18. Letters in Books & Bookmen (London), April 1975, p. 5, and in The
Stars and Stripes (European edition), Jan. 24, 1993, p. 14. Wiesenthal¹s
1993 Stars and Stripes letter is reprinted in facsimile in The Journal of
Historical Review, May­June 1993, p. 10.

19. Memorial Site Concentration Camp Dachau. Leaflet published by the
International Dachau-Committee (Dachau, Germany), no date.

-- 
Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
Or, come visit my home page at http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr
The Institute for Historical Review can be reached at:
P.O. Box 241556, Newport Beach, CA 92659


From greg.ihr@kaiwan.com Fri Sep  8 08:06:35 PDT 1995
Article: 6539 of alt.revisionism
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: The Tradition of Historical Revisionism
Date: 8 Sep 1995 14:25:41 GMT
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X-Newsreader: Value-Added NewsWatcher 2.0b27.1+

The Tradition of Historical Revisionism

by Tom Marcellus

³Truth is always the first war casualty. The emotional disturbances and
distortions in historical writing are greatest in wartime.²

 These are the words of American historian, sociologist and criminologist
Prof. Harry Elmer Barnes, who founded a school of historical thought and
analysis following World War I that became known as revisionist.

 But why revisionist? What is historical revisionism? And what makes it
different from the history we are taught in school and see portrayed in
the popular media? For the late Dr. Barnes, revisionism meant:

Š nothing more or less than the effort to correct the historical record in
the light of a more complete collection of historical facts, a more calm
political atmosphere, and a more objective attitude.

 The term revisionism first originated with a group of scholars (French,
British, American, German and others) whose post-World War I research
undermined the presumption of unique German responsibility for the
outbreak of that war in 1914. Although the term initially applied to
revising the causes of World War I, it has subsequently come to embrace
all historical findings at odds with the established or ³politically
correct² version. Thus revisionism, the effort to describe past events in
the light of facts, is freedom of speech in history.

 The early revisionists, and those who followed the tradition, recognized
a fact of life pertaining to the writing of history: where wars are
concerned, historians of victorious nations tend to write historical
accounts that ignore relevant facts not favorable to the victor while, at
the same time, misrepresenting or inventing other facts in order to cast
the vanquished enemy in an unfavorable light. Most of these World War I
historians had played an active role in that war, many in propaganda and
intelligence; after World War II, it was not uncommon for them to continue
to have links with intelligence agencies.

 The efforts of establishment historians to remain on the good side of the
powers-that-be (like the court historians who served kings and emperors of
old) thus created a historical record that often resembled the products of
their wartime propaganda more than honest and independent scholarship.

 ³To the victor go the spoils² is a well known quote from American
president Andrew Jackson. And certainly one of the great spoils of winning
a war is being able to write the history of it from your own perspective.

 When history is written by partisan historians from a victor nation, the
winning side emerges simplistically as the ³good guys.² The losers, of
course, are the ³bad guys.² Questions about the origins of the war (for
instance, about the real story behind the sinking of the Lusitania or the
attack on Pearl Harbor), about its conduct (did the ³Huns² really cut off
infants¹ hands in Belgium? Were we justified in annihilating the
populations of whole cities such as Dresden and Tokyo from the air?), and
about its consequences (such as the wisdom of the Treaty of Versailles or
the secret deals at Teheran and Yalta) are ignored or swept aside.

 Following World War I, Harry Elmer Barnes and other historians, both in
the victor nations and the vanquished, ³revised² the official version of
the winners by gaining access to the secret records of the wartime
governments ‹ their ministers, generals and diplomats. The documents
demonstrated a tremendous difference between what the leaders were saying
in public and what they were doing in private. By unearthing and
marshalling the facts, the revisionists successfully demonstrated that
millions of men had gone to their deaths for ideals at which those in
power secretly scoffed. A great and healthy revulsion against war and
warmakers set in, and Americans set their faces against further ³crusades²
across the oceans.

 But the upheaval which World War I had brought about in Europe and Asia,
along with the short-sighted settlements that the victors had imposed on
the defeated nations, led to another war. This time, however, the ruling
establishments in the victor nations determined that there would be no
³revision² of their wartime propaganda, no ³bringing history into accord
with the facts.² The men who wrote the authorized histories of the Second
World War were tied to their society¹s ruling elites ‹ both public and
private ‹ just as closely as the court historians of bygone days. They
enjoyed privileged access to the records, many of which they had helped
create themselves with their wartime roles in propaganda and intelligence.
Dissident historians ‹ the ³revisionists² ‹ were excluded.

 It is crucial, however, that we gain an understanding of the actual
origins, course and consequences of World War II and of all modern wars.
³Good guys² vs. ³bad guys² history accomplishes nothing but a
reinforcement of wartime propaganda and spurious stereotypes. Carried over
into peacetime, it stands in the way of understanding and reconciliation,
fostering an atmosphere in which all the world¹s conflicts are viewed as
monumental struggles between Good and Evil.

 It is the revisionists¹ aim to understand wars, not to continue to fight
them in endless polemical battles. Revisionists search for the underlying
causes of wars, hold the self-serving claims of all parties to those
struggles to critical review, and investigate the role of often shadowy
third parties that sought to profit from wars waged ostensibly on behalf
of nation-states.

 Revisionist scholars are working in many nations. The movement defies
political classification on the conventional ³left-right² spectrum.
Revisionists are dedicated first to discovering the truth that is often
hidden away in secret archives that governments and established powers
everywhere would seal up in perpetuity. They are further dedicated to the
principle that citizens have a right to know what their governments are
actually doing behind the scenes.

  Revisionists are deeply concerned with the imposition of a monolithic
orthodoxy in any area of historical research. The revisionists have
challenged, in particular, some of the most sacrosanct dogmas of World War
II propaganda, from the unmitigated evil and aggressiveness of Germany,
Japan, and their allies, to the unquestioning acceptance of the Holocaust
story with its many improbable details.

 Revisionists have learned, and teach, that a misunderstanding of the
nature of conflicts between nations allows politicians, often fronting for
special interests, to lead us blindly into wars and ³police actions² in
which the great majority of the citizenry has no real interest and there
is no clear and present danger. The failure to properly understand our own
involvement in the European wars has lured Americans into one crisis after
another in the decades following World War II, from Korea to Vietnam to
Beirut. Each time the politicians have assured us that we are repelling
³aggression,² staving off ³bloodbaths,² ³fighting Communism² or
³terrorism,² or what have you. And each time the interventions have ended
not in victory, but in death, frustration, and dishonor.

 Still, special interests conjure up new Bad Guys, new devils. The tangle
of rivalries and hatreds that outside intervention has created in the
Middle East continues to provide our leaders with excuses for new
adventures, from Libya to the Persian Gulf. Will the kind of popular
hatred manufactured by professional propagandists against foreign leaders
such as Khadafy, Khomeini, or Hussein lure us into new crusades? Or even
into a catastrophic nuclear conflict?

 Not if the findings of revisionists are heeded. Barnes and his
colleagues, and their successors, working from a deep conviction that war
is unnecessary, have demonstrated how specious were the justifications and
how injurious the results have been of the wars America has blundered into
over the past century. Rather than make us stronger and freer, these wars
have diminished our freedoms, undermined our wealth, and created a false
illusion of national rectitude.

 The revisionists are perhaps the only students of the past who have
heeded the warning of George Orwell that: ³Who controls the past controls
the future. Who controls the present controls the past.² By wresting
control of the past from established interests and returning it to those
who lived and suffered it, revisionists may make possible a brighter and
more genuinely secure future for all.

 And if we can face up to and acknowledge the existence of underlying
causes of war, and what our own leaders have done to encourage war,
prolong it and make it more destructive than at any other time in history,
we may be on our way to achieving the just and lasting peace that every
person of good will desires.

 The Institute for Historical Review, founded in 1978, is the world¹s
leading organization carrying on the proud tradition of historical
revisionism. The IHR is non-ideological and non-partisan. We are not
interested in rehabilitating this or that regime. We are interested only
in rehabilitating the truth, or, as Dr. Barnes put it: ³Bringing history
into accord with facts.²

Recommended for further study, and available from the Institute for
Historical Review:

On the Origins of World War II, and US Entry into the Conflict:

Barnes Against the Blackout: Essays Against Interventionism, by Harry
Elmer Barnes. Softcover. 376 pp. $8.95

The Forced War: When Peaceful Revision Failed, by David L. Hoggan.
Hardcover. 716 pp. $21.95

Churchill¹s War, by David Irving. Hardcover. 665 pp. $39.95

Stalin¹s War, by Ernst Topitsch. Hardcover. 152 pp. $19.95

Hitler¹s War, by David Irving. Hardcover. Revised edition, 857 pp. $49.95

America¹s Second Crusade, by William Henry Chamberlin. Softcover. 323 pp. $9.00

On the Origins and 

Consequences of World War I:

Hitler: Born at Versailles, by Leon Degrelle. Hardcover. 535 pp. $15.95

Who Started the First World War?, by Harry Elmer Barnes. Softcover. 46 pp. $2.00

In Quest of Truth and Justice, by Harry Elmer Barnes. Softcover. 423 pp. $12.00

Germany Not Guilty in 1914, by M.H. Cochran. Softcover. 236 pp. $5.25

On Nuremberg 

and Related Trials:

Dönitz at Nuremberg: A Reappraisal, edited by H. Keith Thompson and Henry
Strutz. Softcover. 198 pp. $8.00

Advance to Barbarism, by Frederick J.P. Veale. Softcover. 363 pp. $11.00

Prisoner of Peace: Rudolf Hess, by Frau Ilse Hess. Softcover. 151 pp. $8.95

Not Guilty at Nuremberg, by Carlos Porter. Softcover. 23 pp. $5.00

A Trial on Trial: The Great Sedition Trial of 1944, by Lawrence Dennis.
Softcover. 502 pp. $12.00

On the ŒHolocaust¹:

The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, by Arthur R. Butz. Softcover. 397 pp. $11.95

The Holocaust Story and the Lies of Ulysses, by Paul Rassinier. Softcover.
450 pp. $12.00

The Real Eichmann Trial, by Paul Rassinier. Softcover. 170 pp. $7.50

The Dissolution of Eastern European Jewry, by Walter Sanning. Softcover.
239 pp. $6.00

The Man Who Invented ŒGenocide¹, by James J. Martin. Softcover. 360 pp. $4.95

Auschwitz: A Judge Looks at the Evidence, by Wilhelm Stäglich. Softcover.
396 pp. $11.50. Hardcover. $14.95

Confessions of a Holocaust Revisionist, by Bradley Smith. Softcover. 57
pp. $6.00

The ŒConfessions¹ of Kurt Gerstein, by Henri Roques. Softcover. 318 pp. $6.50

The Leuchter Report, by Fred Leuchter. Softcover. 67 pp. $20.00

Made in Russia: The Holocaust, by Carlos Porter. Softcover. 415 pp. $10.00

On the Background to the 

Pearl Harbor Attack:

Pearl Harbor: The Story of the Secret War, by George Morgenstern.
Softcover. 424 pp. $8.95

Pearl Harbor After a Quarter Century, by Harry Elmer Barnes. Softcover.
132 pp. $6.00

Infamy: Pearl Harbor and Its Aftermath, by John Toland. Softcover. 397 pp. $8.00

War Lords of Washington, by Anthony Hilder. Softcover. 45 pp. $4.00

The Journal of Historical Review, published six times yearly by the IHR,
covers all these areas of history and many others. Subscription: $40.00
per year (in the US). Back issues are available, along with clothbound,
indexed annual volumes.

IHR has spokesmen available for lectures, debates, and radio and TV
interviews who can come to your area. It also sponsors international
conferences.

In Summary

1. The goal of historical revisionism is a historical record that reflects
the facts: the truth of what happened, and why. In an effort to prevent
future conflicts, historical revisionism seeks to counter propaganda and
unjustified stereotypes, and to encourage awareness of the origins and
consequences of wars.

2. Historical revisionism is non-ideological and non-political.
Revisionists hold views from across the political spectrum.

3. Historical revisionism of the Second World War is neither anti-Jewish
nor pro-German. Revisionists do not seek to demean any group, or to
rehabilitate or whitewash any regime. They seek to rehabilitate only the
truth.

4. Historical revisionism is a worldwide movement that has grown
significantly during the past decade. The IHR has played a significant
role in this process.

5. The revisionist case is convincingly set forth in a wide range of
books, videotapes, booklets and other materials.

9/95  

Tom Marcellus was director of the Institute for Historical Review from
1981 to 1995, except for an 18-month absence in 1986­1987.

Send $2.00 for a packet of literature and a full listing of books, audio
cassettes, videotapes and other items. Or, order more copies of this
leaflet, postpaid, at the following prices:

10 copies, $2.00 ‹ 50 copies, $5.00

100 copies or more, 8 cents each

INSTITUTE FOR HISTORICAL REVIEW

Post Office Box 2739

Newport Beach, California 92659

-- 
Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
Or, come visit my home page at http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr
The Institute for Historical Review can be reached at:
P.O. Box 241556, Newport Beach, CA 92659


From karlpov@access2.digex.net Fri Sep  8 12:26:37 PDT 1995
Article: 6543 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!news1.digex.net!news3.digex.net!access2!karlpov
From: karlpov@access2.digex.net (Charles R.L. Power)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mr. Raven, I have some questions.
Date: 8 Sep 1995 10:59:18 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 10
Message-ID: 
References: <428867$1cra@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>   <42oc9m$sbh@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access2.digex.net

greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) writes:

>In article <42oc9m$sbh@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu>, cacst9+@pitt.edu (Cecelia
>> Is IHR still tied to Noontide Press?

>No, and it never was. The IHR and Noontide Press are both dbas for the
>same parent company.

Oh. Well, that clarifies everything. With thinking like this, no wonder
you're able to deny the Holocaust.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Fri Sep  8 12:26:39 PDT 1995
Article: 6545 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news1.digex.net!news3.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Tradition of Historical Revisionism
Date: 8 Sep 1995 11:07:34 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <42pm7m$lp5@access5.digex.net>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article ,
Greg Raven  wrote:
>3. Historical revisionism of the Second World War is neither anti-Jewish
>nor pro-German. Revisionists do not seek to demean any group, or to
>rehabilitate or whitewash any regime. They seek to rehabilitate only the
>truth.

    Then why do they make use of distorted and dishonest paraphrases,
quotes out of context, proven liars such as Fred Leuchter and Emil
Lachout?  For example, one might ask why Greg Raven wrote that Pressac
commented on Bo"ck that he "could have witnessed only one such gassing (at
most)," when Pressac said no such thing?  Using such falsehoods to
rehabilitate the truth sounds about like killing for peace.  Greg Raven
would have done well in Orwell's Ministry of Truth. 

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From schwartz@infinet.com Fri Sep  8 12:26:40 PDT 1995
Article: 6558 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!malgudi.oar.net!infinet!cmh-p098.infinet.com!user
From: schwartz@infinet.com (Sara aka Perrrfect)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,
Subject: Re: New Book, THE PINK SWASTIKA
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 1995 11:33:33 -0400
Organization: Cat's Lair
Lines: 35
Message-ID: 
References: <422s53$8c8@news.netvision.net.il> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: cmh-p098.infinet.com

In article ,
greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) wrote:

> In article <422s53$8c8@news.netvision.net.il>, kevina@netvision.net.il wrote:
> 
> > Has anyone read THE PINK SWASTIKA yet???
> > 
> > This new and important book documents the homoerotic and 
> > black occult foundations of Nazi militarism and the Holocaust.
> > 
> > Order by calling 1-800-828-2290
> 
> Could you please explain something for us. Immediately after the war, we
> were told that one of the reasons Hitler and Co. were so evil was that
> they were sexual perverts. More recently, we have been told that Hitler
> and Co. actually persecuted sexual perverts. Now, we are again being told
> that Hitler and Co. were themselves perverts. How is one supposed to sort
> all this out?
> 

It's very simple, Greg.
 
Hitler and Co. were perverts. Homosexuality had nothing to do with it.
 
They persecuted homosexuals.
 
And they were perverts.
 
Got it?

Sara

-- 
"No human race is superior; no religious faith is inferior. All collective judgements are wrong. Only racists make them."
     Elie Wiesel


From karlpov@access2.digex.net Fri Sep  8 12:26:40 PDT 1995
Article: 6566 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!news1.digex.net!news3.digex.net!access2!karlpov
From: karlpov@access2.digex.net (Charles R.L. Power)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: HUMAN SKIN LAMPSHADES - A CRUEL ABERRATION
Date: 8 Sep 1995 12:26:59 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 41
Message-ID: 
References: <149434179wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk> <42d6up$ktf@calvino.alaska.net> <42desr$pjc@rover.ucs.ualberta.ca> <810238210snz@abaron.demon.co.uk> <42illn$l02@access1.digex.net> <810410095snz@abaron.demon.co.uk>  In article , karlpov@access5.digex.net (Charles
>R.L. Power) wrote:

>> Alexander Baron  writes:
>> 
>> >I think it is very difficult to evaluate any atrocity story but I certainly
>> >wouldn't rule out anything although I don't believe in the lapmshades.
>I think
>> >this was a case of gilding the  lily. The point I have always tried to make
>> >is that this is presented as typical of Nazi ideology;
>> 
>> Presented by whom? I have been through dozens of volumes on the Holocaust 
>> trying to track this stuff down, and the fact is that it is extremely hard
>> to find *any mention* of the lampshade story. Yes, lampshades and soap are
>> popular icons of the Holocaust, and probably shouldn't be; our point is 
>> that they *do* have a basis in documented fact, however much you prefer
>> to ignore all testimony of atrocities commited by Axis powers, or to pretend
>> that it's all make-believe. Nice to see that you're qualifying your still
>> rigid ideological stance by avoiding instantly describing such information
>> as "nonsense". Who knows, maybe you are learning something.
>> 
>> My experience here is that all discussion of lampshades and soap has been
>> initiated by deniers; we on the other side recognize that these matters
>> are atypical and relatively unimportant compared to that other matter you
>> still can't stand to recognize, the systematic, gratuitous murder of 
>> millions of human beings on the basis not of military or political
>> expediency but simply of their ancestry.

>That's a very enlightened stance. So enlightened, in fact, that it could
>see you jailed and fined in France (and possibly Germany and elsewhere).

I don't like to requote so much of an old message, but what, 
specifically, did I say which is contrary to French or German law? Is it 
necessary to "recognize" under French or German or any other law that 
soap made from human fat or lampshades made from human skin were typical 
in the Holocaust? Or even that they existed? (They did, but I would like 
to know what law forces me or anyone else to recognize this particular 
bizarre sidelight on the Third Reich, as opposed to recognizing the mass
murders committed by that Reich.)


From mstein@access5.digex.net Fri Sep  8 14:50:56 PDT 1995
Article: 6577 of alt.revisionism
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From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mr. Raven, I have some questions.
Date: 8 Sep 1995 13:24:24 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <42pu88$bgh@access5.digex.net>
References: <428867$1cra@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>  <42oc9m$sbh@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article ,
Greg Raven  wrote:
>In article <42oc9m$sbh@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu>, cacst9+@pitt.edu (Cecelia
>A Clancy) wrote:
>> Is IHR still owned by the League for the Survival of Freedom?
>
>In a manner of speaking.

    In what manner of speaking?  What is the precise relationship between 
the LSF and the IHR?

    Also, do you hold any official position in the LSF?  If so, what is 
your official title?

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From dspiegel@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu Fri Sep  8 16:32:19 PDT 1995
Article: 6582 of alt.revisionism
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From: dspiegel@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu (Dan Spiegel)
Subject: Re: New Book, THE PINK SWASTIKA
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In article ,
Greg Raven  wrote:
>
>Could you please explain something for us. Immediately after the war, we
>were told that one of the reasons Hitler and Co. were so evil was that
>they were sexual perverts. More recently, we have been told that Hitler
>and Co. actually persecuted sexual perverts. Now, we are again being told
>that Hitler and Co. were themselves perverts. How is one supposed to sort
>all this out?
>

Here we see the reasoning ability of a leading denier exposed. I believe
that J. Edgar Hoover, a homosexual who mercilessly persecuted homosexuals
(and just about everyone else he didn't like) is an adequate example.

As for "How is one supposed to sort all this out?", I might recommend
a short study of the hypocrisy of the leaders of totalitarian regimes.
Start with Hitler, Goering, et.al. and then proceed backwards or forwards
through history. Examples are rather numerous.

Of course, someone with the reputation and academic credentials of 
Mr. Raven would know all this.  
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. 

Followups directed to alt.revisionism, where Mr. Raven occasionally
shows up to distort facts, blatantly lie, and refuse to address the 
refutations of his holocaust denial.

| -DS 	I speak for myself only.  No unsolicited e-mail, please. 	  |
|	    Please do not use my name in any subject headers.		  |
| Obligatory quote: "Sometimes one must cut off a finger to save a hand"  |
|		    -Po, lowly priest of Hunan province, Shao-Lin Master  |


From malcolm@pigsty.demon.co.uk Fri Sep  8 16:32:20 PDT 1995
Article: 6585 of alt.revisionism
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From: malcolm@pigsty.demon.co.uk (Malcolm McMahon)
Newsgroups: alt.society.conservatism,alt.society.civil-liberty,alt.sex.pedophilia,alt.sex.homosexual,alt.sex.advocacy,alt.revisionism,alt.religion.wicca,alt.religion.sexuality,alt.religion.christianity,alt.religion.broadcast,alt.radio.whadya-know,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.sex,alt.politics.media,alt.politics.homosexuality,alt.politics.homosexual
Subject: Re: New Book, THE PINK SWASTIKA
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 1995 18:29:24 GMT
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greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) wrote:

>In article <422s53$8c8@news.netvision.net.il>, kevina@netvision.net.il wrote:


>Could you please explain something for us. Immediately after the war, we
>were told that one of the reasons Hitler and Co. were so evil was that
>they were sexual perverts. More recently, we have been told that Hitler
>and Co. actually persecuted sexual perverts. Now, we are again being told
>that Hitler and Co. were themselves perverts. How is one supposed to sort
>all this out?

What makes you think sexual perverts necessarily like other sexual
perverts?


---------------------------------+----------------------------------
I was born weird:  This terrible | Like Pavlov's dogs we are trained
compulsion to behave normally is | to salivate at the sound of the
the result of childhood trauma.  | liberty bell.
---------------------------------+----------------------------------
Malcolm



From dkeren@world.std.com Fri Sep  8 20:25:07 PDT 1995
Article: 6593 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsjunkie.ans.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!in1.uu.net!world!dkeren
From: dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
Subject: Re: The Dachau Gas Chamber EXPOSED, by a Medical Doctor
Message-ID: 
Organization: The World, Public Access Internet, Brookline, MA
References: <41tvc6$hm0@mail.inforamp.net> <810415497snz@abaron.demon.co.uk>  
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 1995 21:16:10 GMT
Lines: 36

greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven):

IHR employee Greg Raven, who has already expressed his great
admiration for Adolf Hitler (see next article), writes to
Rajiv K. Gandhi:

# You are correct, of course. When dealing with eyewitnesses
# to gassings, one must refer to Auschwitz commandant Rudolf Hoess,
# who, I believe, claimed that the "body handlers" would move the
# bodies shortly after a gassing, smoking and eating all the while.
# "Underpants and a gas mask," indeed!

This is so stupid, and to see Raven continue with this stuff,
after all those years...

The original thread was about a man working in the delousing
chambers, not the gas chambers.

The underground gas chambers of Kremas II and III had strong
ventilation systems (see Pressac for a thorough documentation).
After a gassing had taken place, the air was replaced, and
then the gas chambers were opened and the "sonderkommando"
took the corpses to be cremated. Since the Zyklon-B was also
taken out (via the same wiremesh introduction devices used
to insert it), there was no need for a gas mask in those gas
chambers.

Some of the other gas chambers (above ground level) didn't
have ventilation systems, and the first "sonderkommando"
that went inside used gas masks (see Dragon's testimony,
for instance).


-Danny Keren.




From dkeren@world.std.com Fri Sep  8 20:25:08 PDT 1995
Article: 6594 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
Subject: Raven's Admiration for Hitler (Re: The Dachau Gas Ch
Message-ID: 
Organization: The World, Public Access Internet, Brookline, MA
References: <41tvc6$hm0@mail.inforamp.net> <810415497snz@abaron.demon.co.uk>  
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 1995 21:18:18 GMT
Lines: 18



 Category 15,  Topic 4
 Message 33        Fri Mar 13, 1992
 G.RAVEN                      at 03:02 EST

My only concern is in going after the facts. As such, I am not
interested in defending Adolf Hitler to my dying breath. I will say,
however, that he was a great man ... certainly greater than
Churchill and FDR put together, and possibly the greatest leader of
our century, if not longer. This is not to say that he was perfect,
but he about the best thing that could have happened to Germany.




-Danny Keren.



From cacst9+@pitt.edu Sat Sep  9 03:23:10 PDT 1995
Article: 6636 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.cac.psu.edu!news.math.psu.edu!hudson.lm.com!newsfeed.pitt.edu!cacst9
From: cacst9+@pitt.edu (Cecelia A Clancy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mr. Raven, I have some questions.
Date: 9 Sep 1995 03:55:59 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
Lines: 106
Message-ID: <42r38f$7j3@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu>
References: <428867$1cra@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>  <42oc9m$sbh@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: xdm.cis.pitt.edu

In article ,
Greg Raven  wrote:
>In article <42oc9m$sbh@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu>, cacst9+@pitt.edu (Cecelia
>A Clancy) wrote:
>
>
>> Greg, now that you are here, please post here how the Board of Directors
>> of IHR is selected, who selects them, and who these borad members are.
>
>The IHR does not have a board of directors.

But Greg, you yourself have made reference to the IHR Board of Directors
right her in a.r. and have done so recently.  It was in the same 
post in which you stated that IHR has no President and no CEO.

If there is no President and no CEO, then to whom do you report?

The IHR DOES have a Board of Directors.  Who is on that Board and
how are they selected?

And while we are at it, please elaborate on the rights and powers
within IHR of the Editorial Advisory Board.  What is its function?
What role do they play in "running" IHR - I say no role.


>
>> Plese either post of send me information of the Carto lawsuit stuff.
>
>There are nearly a dozen lawsuits, and mountains of paper have been
>generated. Can you be more specific in your request?


CAn you begin with an overall summary?  Can you give docket numbers
for the court documents and cases?  Can you give references to
pretrial deppositions?  Can you give references where I can find
court transcripts?  Can you give references on any out of court
settlements?   Can you give the names and professional addresses
of the attorneys on both sides?  Who were the judges?
In which courts were the suits filed and heard?


>> Is IHR still tied to Noontide Press?
>
>No, and it never was. The IHR and Noontide Press are both dbas for the
>same parent company.

... which is the League for the Survival of Freedom, which has been
a long time Carto front.   If there is not tie, then how come everything
in the IHR Catalogue could be found in the Noontide Press Catlogue printed
>from  the same plates?   And how come after I subscribed to the IHR Newsletter
and Journal of Historical Review, I would get promotional mailings from
Noontide Press -- to include a multipage catalogue --  that had the same
unique number  above my name as the number that was on the mailings I
would receive from IHR.

.
>
>> Is IHR still owned by the League for the Survival of Freedom?
>
>In a manner of speaking.   


In a manner of speaking how?   Is the League for the Survival of
Freedom IHR's parent company?   Is it still Noontide Press's parent
company?   Does Willis Carto still own the League for the Survival
of Freedom  ---or did he ditch that too when he ditched IHR?

If you do not want to e-mail me, then send me something via snail
mail.  You should still have my address in one of your old mailing
list databases.


>> What is Willis Carto's relationship, if any to IHR today?
>
>Chief adversary.

As far as the public is concerned at least.   But are all the lawsuits
he has made genuine or are they all a ruse to cover up the fact that
he still runs and owns IHR????   If IHR's holding company is still
the League for the Survival of Freedom and if Carto still owns and
controls it, then he still owns and controls IHR.  What is going
on Greg?  Again, to whom do you report?

>
>> Does Mark Weber have an e-mail address?
>
Then can you give me his P.O. Box (not the IHR one, his own,  or shall
I get it from the Simon Wiesenthal Center  -- Mark gave it to thle
SWC one time on its answering machine thinking he was applying for
a job with a neo-Nazi publication called _Right_?  Isn't that "right?"


>
>> Where is Tom Marcellus now?
>
>Probably at his computer at home here in Southern California, happily
>earning a living.


Then he should have an e-mail address.  I would like to interview
him as part of my research on the Revisionist movement?  Can you
give me his e-mail or snail mail address?


Cecelia   cacst9+@pitt.edu
**********************************************************************


From jamie@voyager.net Sat Sep  9 11:09:15 PDT 1995
Article: 6670 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!isclient.merit.edu!voyager.net!NewsWatcher!user
From: jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mr. Raven, I demand a retraction, an apology, or a defense
Date: Sat, 09 Sep 1995 10:53:04 -0400
Organization: Absence Software
Lines: 22
Message-ID: 
References: <428867$1cra@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>  
NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.109.137.18

greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) wrote:

> jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:
> 
> > (snip)
> 
> 
> Yikes! And this from someone who once apologized for misquoting me, and
> promised to alter his quote to accurately reflect what I wrote ...

Mr. Raven, what on _earth_ are you referring to?

This is far from an explanation.  I want from you either an explanation
of where I have misquoted or misrepresented you, to the best of your
memory, or a retraction and an apology.  The two sentences above do not
suffice.

Posted and emailed to Mr. Raven.
-- 
 Jamie McCarthy  jamie@voyager.net jrm0@aol.com  http://www.kzoo.edu/~k044477/
 I speak only for myself.            Co-Webmaster of http://www.almanac.bc.ca/
 Unless otherwise specified, I consider pro-"revisionism" email public domain.


From jamie@voyager.net Sat Sep  9 11:09:16 PDT 1995
Article: 6673 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!isclient.merit.edu!voyager.net!NewsWatcher!user
From: jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: EVERYTHING ABOUT IT (AUSCHWITZ I) IS FALSE
Date: Sat, 09 Sep 1995 11:35:03 -0400
Organization: Absence Software
Lines: 45
Message-ID: 
References: <993813wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk> <42co1k$nvi@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.109.137.18

greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) wrote:

> How do you know the "gas chamber" is not a fake ... do you have drawings
> or photos of the non-fake "gas chamber"? 

One is forced to inquire about this non-sequitur.  Mr. Raven's implication
is that there is no way to "know" that something is "not a fake" without
drawings and photos of it.  This is not a simple oversight on his part.
He (and other deniers) have been asking for photos and drawings for
years now -- the movement was started by the French denier Robert
Faurisson with his "show me or draw me a gas chamber!"  It's silliness,
of course.  Photographs and drawings are not the only proof of whether
or not the Nazis killed people in homicidal gas chambers.  In fact, all
things considered, there are much _better_ sources of proof:  for
example, the internal memos documenting details of those killings.

But let's see if we can satisfy Mr. Raven's requests for "drawings or
photos."  I believe he was referring specifically to Krema I.  There are
of course numerous photos of the Krema I gas chamber in libraries
worldwide.  If he wants video footage of the inside of the gas chamber,
I recommend David Cole's so-called "Piper tape."  (Mr. Raven will surely
protest that Mr. Cole, a denier, insists on that tape that Krema I was
not a homicidal gas chamber.  This would only prove my point that photos
and drawings are not what's required for proof.)

Anyway, photographs of other gas chambers can be found on the world-wide
web.

A blueprint for the gas chamber at Krema II:
   

A picture of Krema II as it is today:
   

An aerial photograph of Krema III:
   

A picture of the gas chamber building of Krema IV:
   

Posted and emailed to Mr. Raven.
-- 
 Jamie McCarthy  jamie@voyager.net jrm0@aol.com  http://www.kzoo.edu/~k044477/
 I speak only for myself.            Co-Webmaster of http://www.almanac.bc.ca/
 Unless otherwise specified, I consider pro-"revisionism" email public domain.


From greg.ihr@kaiwan.com Sat Sep  9 11:09:17 PDT 1995
Article: 6674 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsjunkie.ans.net!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.uoregon.edu!kaiwan.kaiwan.com!kaiwan086.kaiwan.com!user
From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Zundel Press Release: Freedom of Speech and Assembly
Date: 9 Sep 1995 15:53:34 GMT
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 39
Message-ID: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan086.kaiwan.com
X-Newsreader: Value-Added NewsWatcher 2.0b27.1+

Today, Zündel Headquarters sent out the press release below to
hundreds of media sources in the United States and Canada: 

Mrs. Hillary Rodham Clinton, the First Lady of the United States of
America, gave a ringing endorsement of freedom of speech, freedom of
assembly, and freedom to organize and to debate openly when she spoke to
delegates of the International Women's Conference in Beijing, China. 

This endorsement has particular meaning for Germans and German descendants
world-wide and particularly in Canada where freedom of speech has been
severely curtailed at the behest of special interest groups with an
interest in suppressing debate on Holocaust matters. 

During a speech at the International Women's Conference in Beijing, Mrs.
Clinton said, as quoted in the International Edition of the New Yoirk
Times, September 6, 1995: 

       "Freedom means the right of people to assemble, organize
       and debate openly . . . It means respecting the views of
       those who may disagree with the views of their
       governments. It means not taking citizens away from their
       loved ones and jailing them, mistreating them, or denying
       them their freedom or dignity because of peaceful
       expression of their ideas and opinions." 

Members of the German and German descendent community in Canada wish to go
on record saying that they hope that Prime Minister Chretien of Canada is
listening so he may learn the basic lesson of democracy - that true
freedom means freedom to differ with the official view of things,
including the official and "sanctioned" view on historical matters such as
the Holocaust. 

       Ernst Zündel

-- 
Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
Or, come visit my home page at http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr
The Institute for Historical Review can be reached at:
P.O. Box 241556, Newport Beach, CA 92659


From cacst9+@pitt.edu Sat Sep  9 11:09:17 PDT 1995
Article: 6676 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.cac.psu.edu!news.math.psu.edu!hudson.lm.com!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!cacst9
From: cacst9+@pitt.edu (Cecelia A Clancy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: HUMAN SKIN LAMPSHADES - A CRUEL ABERRATION
Date: 9 Sep 1995 15:59:28 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <42sdl0$a1h@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu>
References: <149434179wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>   <42omk9$18e8@rover.ucs.ualberta.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: xdm.cis.pitt.edu
Bcc: codoh@aol.com

In article <42omk9$18e8@rover.ucs.ualberta.ca>,
John Morris  wrote:
>greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) wrote:
>
>>You are safe enough here in the United States saying that the
>>Nuremberg Tribunal was wrong, but don't try that abroad.
>
>Yes. It would be safe to say in the United States. Canada, Italy, the
>U.K. and a host of other countries as well. But you would still be
>wrong.

But what about France and Germany?   Can a person there be fined
and jailed for questioning even a single item in the IMT Record?


Cecelia Clancy   cacst9+@pitt.edu
**************************************************************************



From karlpov@access5.digex.net Sat Sep  9 11:09:18 PDT 1995
Article: 6682 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!news.sprintlink.net!in1.uu.net!news3.digex.net!access5!karlpov
From: karlpov@access5.digex.net (Charles R.L. Power)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Zundel Press Release: Freedom of Speech and Assembly
Date: 9 Sep 1995 13:48:52 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 20
Message-ID: 
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) writes:

>Members of the German and German descendent community in Canada wish to go
>on record saying that they hope that Prime Minister Chretien of Canada is
>listening so he may learn the basic lesson of democracy - that true
>freedom means freedom to differ with the official view of things,
>including the official and "sanctioned" view on historical matters such as
>the Holocaust. 

>       Ernst Zündel

First, I agree with the principle of freedom of speech, including freedom 
of speech for neonazi jackasses.

However, where in Himmel does this notorious nut-case come off 
representing himself as spokesman for the no doubt numerous community of 
those of German blood in Canada? Who asked him? I have no doubt that 
most, were they aware of his existence, would repudiate any such 
representation. Zundel represents, at best, other neonazi Hitler-ass- 
licking nut cases.


From kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca Sat Sep  9 13:23:58 PDT 1995
Article: 6685 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!not-for-mail
From: kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Zundel Press Release: Freedom of Speech and Assembly
Date: 9 Sep 1995 11:30:32 -0700
Organization: The Nizkor Project
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <42smg8$pbu@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.almanac.bc.ca

In article , 
Greg Raven, playing parrot to Zundel's Hook, wrote:

>Members of the German and German descendent community in Canada wish to go
>on record saying that they hope that Prime Minister Chretien of Canada is
>listening so he may learn the basic lesson of democracy - that true
>freedom means freedom to differ with the official view of things,
>including the official and "sanctioned" view on historical matters such as
>the Holocaust. 

Does Mr. Zundel definition of "differ with the official view
of things" include the right to lie with impunity, as Mr.
Zundel does in his Samisdat video "Das Lachout Dokument," and
as he does with regard to Krakowski?

Will Mr. Zundel, that avowed champion of free and open
discussion, join this forum to defend these lies?

Somehow, I doubt it. Mr. Zundel fears open discussion as much
as Mr. Raven does, and his repeated calls for such seem nothing
more than a cynical and hypocritical propaganda ploy.

It is indeed fitting that Mr. Zundel employs Mr. Raven as his
mouthpiece here, as neither one of them has the courage to
openly discuss anything.

-- 
     The Nizkor Project: An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
                   Anonymous ftp: ftp.almanac.bc.ca
Nizkor Web: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction - permanently!)
   Kenneth McVay OBC.  Home Page: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/~kmcvay/


From dkeren@world.std.com Sat Sep  9 20:44:39 PDT 1995
Article: 6714 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!netnet2.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!in1.uu.net!world!dkeren
From: dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
Subject: Really? (Zundel Press Release: Freedom of Speech and 
Message-ID: 
Organization: The World, Public Access Internet, Brookline, MA
References: 
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 1995 20:15:53 GMT
Lines: 19

greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) writes:

[Quote of Zundel calling for "freedom of speech"]

Two questions to Greg "Hitler was a great man" Raven, which
will, most probably, go unanswered:

1) What about that leaflet that Gannon published here, calling
   to ban the movie "Schindler's List"? Zundel was one of the
   "revisionists" who was given as the source of the leaflet,
   and his address was given as a place where one can get copies
   of the leaflet.

2) What does Raven, and "revisionists" in general, think about
   Zundel's "research" into the "Nazi UFO base" in the South Pole?


-Danny Keren.



From gmcfee@ibm.net Sat Sep  9 23:19:28 PDT 1995
Article: 6720 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!van-bc!news.rmii.com!newsjunkie.ans.net!news-m01.ny.us.ibm.net!usenet
From: gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mr. Raven, I demand a retraction, an apology, or a defense
Date: 10 Sep 1995 03:38:02 GMT
Lines: 29
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X-Newsreader: NeoLogic News for OS/2 [version: 4.2]

In message  - jamie@voyager.net (Jamie M
cCarthy) writes:
:>
:>greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) wrote:
:>
:>> jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:
:>> 
:>> > (snip)
:>> 
:>> 
:>> Yikes! And this from someone who once apologized for misquoting me, and
:>> promised to alter his quote to accurately reflect what I wrote ...
:>
:>Mr. Raven, what on _earth_ are you referring to?
:>
:>This is far from an explanation.  I want from you either an explanation
:>of where I have misquoted or misrepresented you, to the best of your
:>memory, or a retraction and an apology.  The two sentences above do not
:>suffice.

I wouldn't expect much else if I were you, Jamie.  The truth does not seem to 
be Greg's modus operandi.




Gord McFee 
"I'll write no line before its time"



From gmcfee@ibm.net Sat Sep  9 23:19:28 PDT 1995
Article: 6727 of alt.revisionism
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From: gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee)
Newsgroups: alt.society.conservatism,alt.society.civil-liberty,alt.sex.pedophilia,alt.sex.homosexual,alt.revisionism,alt.religion.wicca,alt.religion.sexuality,alt.religion.broadcast,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.sex,alt.politics.media,alt.politics.homosexuality
Subject: Re: New Book, THE PINK SWASTIKA
Date: 9 Sep 1995 20:28:58 GMT
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In message <42ogjn$k8b@access4.digex.net> - mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P
 Stein) writes:
:>
:>    Followups trimmed.
:>
:>In article ,
:>Greg Raven  wrote:
:>>Could you please explain something for us. Immediately after the war, we
:>>were told that one of the reasons Hitler and Co. were so evil was that
:>>they were sexual perverts. More recently, we have been told that Hitler
:>>and Co. actually persecuted sexual perverts. Now, we are again being told
:>>that Hitler and Co. were themselves perverts. How is one supposed to sort
:>>all this out?
:>
:>    It may come as a surprise to Greg Raven - many facts do - but some
:>closeted homosexuals have in fact railed against gays in public even as
:>they secretly practiced it themselves.  There was a prominent conservative
:>activist a few years ago who publicly promoted good Christian family
:>values right up until his death from complications related to AIDS.  I'm
:>going on memory, but I believe his name was Terry Dolan. 
:>
:>    To clarify, I have no knowledge one way or the other about the sexual 
:>orientation of any of the Nazi leaders - I'm just pointing out to Greg 
:>Raven that what he sees as a contradiction isn't.

To add to this.  The best evidence is that Hitler was sexually "normal".  
Some of his associates were homosexual (Roehm and Heines come to mind), 
others may have indulged in all sorts of "abnormal" sexual practices.

Hitler tolerated "abnormal" sexual practices in an associate as long as that 
associate remained useful to him.  Once that ended, the person was 
susceptible to an eartly death.  Roehm for example was not executed because 
he homosexual; he was executed because he stood in Hitler's way, and, after 
several warnings, wouldn't get out of Hitler's way.

Raven's analogy is ridiculous in any event.  If he sees a contradiction in 
the Nazis executing homosexuals while they themselves were or were not 
homosexuals, I suppose he would say that the execution of the mentally insane 
(Gnadenstod) means that the Nazis were all mentally insane.




Gord McFee 
"I'll write no line before its time"



From jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca Mon Sep 11 03:42:23 PDT 1995
Article: 6809 of alt.revisionism
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From: jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Zundel Press Release: Freedom of Speech and Assembly
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 1995 21:10:05 GMT
Organization: University of Alberta
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greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) wrote:

>Today, Zündel Headquarters sent out the press release below to
>hundreds of media sources in the United States and Canada: 

[snip]

>Members of the German and German descendent community in Canada wish to go
>on record saying that they hope that Prime Minister Chretien of Canada is
>listening so he may learn the basic lesson of democracy - that true
>freedom means freedom to differ with the official view of things,
>including the official and "sanctioned" view on historical matters such as
>the Holocaust. 

What on earth is Mr. Zuendel talking about? His right to tell lies was
upheld by the Supreme Court of Canada in their very first decision on
the "false news" law subsequent to the passage of the Canadian
Constitution and the appended Charter of Rights and Freedoms in 1982.
Since then he has not been subject to any legal action initiated by
the government of Canada. Mr. Zuendel's rights are fully protected and
have not been abridged.

It would appear that Mr. Zuendel's distorted concept of freedom of
speech includes the freedom not to be criticized for lying. If the
courage of his convictions is so weak, then perhaps he has no such
convcitions at all. Certainly he is content to monitor this group, but
he is not brave enough even to respond to the assertion that he is a
bare-faced liar. All we get is his plaintive bleating about his
"rights" delivered by his messenger boy.

--
 John Morris                               
 at University of Alberta     
------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
 The Nizkor Project: An Electronic Holocaust Resource
  File archives - ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca
  Web page - http://nizkor.almanac.bc.ca



From schwartz@infinet.com Tue Sep 12 08:24:27 PDT 1995
Article: 6940 of alt.revisionism
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From: schwartz@infinet.com (Sara aka Perrrfect)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mr. Raven, I have some questions.
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 1995 08:17:19 -0400
Organization: Cat's Lair
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In article ,
greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) wrote:

> In article <42oc9m$sbh@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu>, cacst9+@pitt.edu (Cecelia
> A Clancy) wrote:
> 

> > Is IHR still tied to Noontide Press?
> 
> No, and it never was. The IHR and Noontide Press are both dbas for the
> same parent company.

If they are both "doing business as" companies OWNED by the same parent
company, they certainly are tied together. What nonsense to say otherwise!


> 
> > Is IHR still owned by the League for the Survival of Freedom?
> 
> In a manner of speaking.
> 
What manner of speaking, Greg. Please be less elusive and a bit more specific.
 
Sara

-- 
"No human race is superior; no religious faith is inferior. All collective judgements are wrong. Only racists make them."
     Elie Wiesel


From kfilan@netcom.com Tue Sep 12 08:24:29 PDT 1995
Article: 6962 of alt.revisionism
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From: kfilan@netcom.com (kevin filan)
Subject: Re: New Book, THE PINK SWASTIKA
Message-ID: 
Followup-To: alt.society.conservatism,alt.society.civil-liberty,alt.sex.pedophilia,alt.sex.homosexual,alt.sex.advocacy,alt.revisionism,alt.religion.wicca,alt.religion.sexuality,alt.religion.broadcast,alt.radio.whadya-know,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.sex,alt.politics.media
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Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com) wrote:

: Could you please explain something for us. Immediately after the war, we
: were told that one of the reasons Hitler and Co. were so evil was that
: they were sexual perverts. More recently, we have been told that Hitler
: and Co. actually persecuted sexual perverts. Now, we are again being told
: that Hitler and Co. were themselves perverts. How is one supposed to sort
: all this out?


	Let's see if I can help.  

	There were homosexuals in the German Army, and even in the S.S..  
However, the general Nazi view of homosexuals was that they were a 
disgrace to their country and generally "anti-family."  Thus, they 
did their best to purge cities like Berlin (which had a thriving gay 
population during the 1920s) of homosexuals.

	(Of course, one could also argue that the homosexuals of Berlin 
weren't murdered ... they merely emigrated to San Francisco).  

	It's not unusual for homophobes or "gay bashers" to have 
repressed homoerotic feelings.  Any psychologist will be happy to explain 
the mechanisms of "projection" and "transferrence" to you.

	And, by the way... "pervert" and "homosexual" are not necessarily 
synonymous, particularly since non-ego-dystonic homosexuality is no 
longer considered a "mental illness" by the DSM-IV, the diagnostic manual 
used by the majority of the psychological profession.

Peace
Kevin Filan
-- 
________________________________________________________________
Kevin Filan			*	P.O. Box 231582
kfilan@netcom.com		*	Old Statehouse Station
Rakshasa PODSnet, FidoNet, IRC	*	Hartford, CT 06123
________________________________________________________________   
"Toto... I don't think we're in Kansas anymore..."


From kevin_e@netvision.net.il Tue Sep 12 08:24:30 PDT 1995
Article: 6981 of alt.revisionism
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From: kevin_e@netvision.net.il
Newsgroups: alt.society.conservatism,alt.society.civil-liberty,alt.sex.pedophilia,alt.sex.homosexual,alt.sex.advocacy,alt.revisionism,alt.religion.wicca,alt.religion.sexuality,alt.religion.christianity,alt.religion.broadcast,alt.radio.whadya-know,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.sex,alt.politics.media,alt.politics.homosexuality
Subject: Re: New Book, THE PINK SWASTIKA
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 95 01:41:05 PDT
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> In article <422s53$8c8@news.netvision.net.il>, kevina@netvision.net.il wrote:
> 
> > Has anyone read THE PINK SWASTIKA yet???
> > 
> > This new and important book documents the homoerotic and 
> > black occult foundations of Nazi militarism and the Holocaust.
> > 
> > Order by calling 1-800-828-2290
> 
> Could you please explain something for us. Immediately after the war, we
> were told that one of the reasons Hitler and Co. were so evil was that
> they were sexual perverts. More recently, we have been told that Hitler
> and Co. actually persecuted sexual perverts. Now, we are again being told
> that Hitler and Co. were themselves perverts. How is one supposed to sort
> all this out?

Greg,

Gay activists have so far been successful at eliciting the sympathies of a 
generally compassionate and sometimes overly tolerant western society, 
by presenting themselves as `victims.'

In what largely has gone unnoticed, `gay revisionists' have slowly been 
working at expropriating the Holocaust, just as they hyjacked the American 
Psychiatric Association in 1973, for their own political reasons. In 
what may be referred to as the `victim plunder strategy,' gay activists 
have attached themselves to the victimization of the Jewish, because the 
Holocaust provides them with a superbly dramatic metaphor for their public 
strategy.

A major problem confronting us in the west today, is the overall historical 
naivety and ignorance of even so-called scholars. (Read Allan Bloom's, 
"Closing of The American Mind.")

Academia and today's media are largely responsible for promoting the 
distorted and untrue perspective that the Nazis were Right-Wing, Conservative
Biblical creationists. The Nazis in truth, were Left-Wing, Darwinian 
Evolutionary, Pagan Socialists, much like many of today's pagan socialists.

In closing, I encourage you to read THE PINK SWASTIKA, many of your questions 
will be answered.      

The futher we move away from an event in history the more it becomes subject 
to abuse and reinterpretation for any number of reasons. Only `true,' not 
fabricated history, can provide us with a guide to the future. The record 
clearly shows the homosexuals were NEVER targeted for extermination but were 
responsible for a disproportionately large amount of brutality leading up to 
and during the Nazi era.

Regards,

Kevin Abrams
Co-author of THE PINK SWASTIKA
> 
> -- 
> Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
> Or, come visit my home page at http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr
> The Institute for Historical Review can be reached at:
> P.O. Box 241556, Newport Beach, CA 92659



From cprasley@nbnet.nb.ca Wed Sep 13 07:54:50 PDT 1995
Article: 7005 of alt.revisionism
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From: cprasley@nbnet.nb.ca (Chris)
Newsgroups: alt.society.conservatism,alt.society.civil-liberty,alt.sex.pedophilia,alt.sex.homosexual,alt.sex.advocacy,alt.revisionism,alt.religion.wicca,alt.religion.sexuality,alt.religion.christianity,alt.religion.broadcast,alt.radio.whadya-know,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.sex,alt.politics.media,alt.politics.homosexuality
Subject: Re: New Book, THE PINK SWASTIKA
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 1995 16:52:31 GMT
Organization: NB*Net
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kevin_e@netvision.net.il wrote:

>Gay activists have so far been successful at eliciting the sympathies of a 
>generally compassionate and sometimes overly tolerant western society, 
>by presenting themselves as `victims.'

>In what largely has gone unnoticed, `gay revisionists' have slowly been 
>working at expropriating the Holocaust, just as they hyjacked the American 
>Psychiatric Association in 1973, for their own political reasons. In 
>what may be referred to as the `victim plunder strategy,' gay activists 
>have attached themselves to the victimization of the Jewish, because the 
>Holocaust provides them with a superbly dramatic metaphor for their public 
>strategy.

>From  where I sit, the message has not been "we have been victimized as if
we were Jews," but "Hitler killed almost as many gays as Jews, but nobody
gives a shit."

Revisionism is when people deny the facts of history.  While the gay claim
may be overstated, yours is clearly a case of denial.

>The record 
>clearly shows the homosexuals were NEVER targeted for extermination but were 
>responsible for a disproportionately large amount of brutality leading up to 
>and during the Nazi era.

Have you been to the camps?  Did you see the large number of "code tags"
they assigned to prizoners?  It wasn't just Jews, or even just Jews and
gays.  Hitler's goons were rounding up and killing a large cross-section
of the population based on at least a dozen criteria.

--
Jetson
Moncton, New Brunswick, Canada.



From mprice@Ra.MsState.Edu Wed Sep 13 07:54:52 PDT 1995
Article: 7028 of alt.revisionism
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From: "Marty G. Price" 
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Subject: Re: New Book, THE PINK SWASTIKA
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 1995 15:50:53 -0500
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On Mon, 11 Sep 1995 kevin_e@netvision.net.il wrote:

> Academia and today's media are largely responsible for promoting the 
> distorted and untrue perspective that the Nazis were Right-Wing, Conservative
> Biblical creationists. The Nazis in truth, were Left-Wing, Darwinian 
> Evolutionary, Pagan Socialists, much like many of today's pagan socialists.
> 
> Kevin Abrams
> Co-author of THE PINK SWASTIKA
> 
You have answered my questions.  

You may be assured that I will never purchase your book nor recommend its 
purchase to anyone.

And the rewriting of history continues...

and the many and varied forces of intolerance bring their pressures to 
bear on this world each time it makes some feeble effort to civilize 
itself...


From ibokor@metz.une.edu.au Wed Sep 13 07:54:53 PDT 1995
Article: 7059 of alt.revisionism
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Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: HUMAN SKIN LAMPSHADES - A CRUEL ABERRATION
Date: 13 Sep 1995 01:10:27 GMT
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Cecelia A Clancy (cacst9+@pitt.edu) wrote:
: In article <42omk9$18e8@rover.ucs.ualberta.ca>,
: John Morris  wrote:
: >greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) wrote:
: >
: >>You are safe enough here in the United States saying that the
: >>Nuremberg Tribunal was wrong, but don't try that abroad.
: >
: >Yes. It would be safe to say in the United States. Canada, Italy, the
: >U.K. and a host of other countries as well. But you would still be
: >wrong.
: 
: But what about France and Germany?   Can a person there be fined
: and jailed for questioning even a single item in the IMT Record?
:

No. 

d.A.


From bruceg@access5.digex.net Wed Sep 13 19:46:38 PDT 1995
Article: 7174 of alt.revisionism
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From: bruceg@access5.digex.net (Bruce Garrett)
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Subject: Re: New Book, THE PINK SWASTIKA
Date: 13 Sep 1995 19:19:31 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
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    kevin_e@netvision.net.il is not overly tolerant...

KA> Gay activists have so far been successful at eliciting the sympathies 
KA> of a generally compassionate and sometimes overly tolerant western 
KA> society, by presenting themselves as `victims.'

	Certainly a ridiculous posture for anyone who deserves, as 
homosexuals deserve, to be hated and despised, wouldn't you say Abrams?

KA> In what largely has gone unnoticed, `gay revisionists' have slowly been 
KA> working at expropriating the Holocaust, just as they hyjacked the 
KA> American  Psychiatric Association in 1973...

	Hijacked.  Yah.  And demanded to be flown to Cuba too, right...?

KA> In what may be referred to as the `victim plunder strategy,' gay 
KA> activists have attached themselves to the victimization of the Jewish, 
KA> because the  Holocaust provides them with a superbly dramatic metaphor 
KA> for their public strategy.

	It's all part of the international homosexual conspiracy...

KA> A major problem confronting us in the west today, is the overall 
KA> historical naivety and ignorance of even so-called scholars. (Read 
KA> Allan Bloom's, "Closing of The American Mind.")

	Yah.  Then read his references for some insight into his 
intellectual integrity.

KA> Academia and today's media are largely responsible for promoting the 
KA> distorted and untrue perspective that the Nazis were Right-Wing, 
KA> Conservative Biblical creationists.

      "Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the 
       will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the 
       Jew, I am fighting for the work of the lord."
                                       -Hitler, Mein Kampf


	The Nazis and their supporters were many things.  They were to be 
found in the gutter and the highest halls of power alike.  They were thugs, 
they were bankers, they were architects, painters, filmmakers and other 
artists of the very highest abilities.  They were common Bilboes and they 
were ladies and gentlemen of manners and style.  They stood on the pulpits 
and over drafting tables and at the lathe and on the battlefield and they 
give the best within themselves to the nazi cause.  

	If there is a stereotype at all of nazis it's that they were 
mindless common street thugs in uniform, but the truth is they had come 
>from  all walks of German life and while some could easily be described as 
common criminals, many were the best and the brightest german society had 
by then produced.  What they had in common was a rock solid belief that 
their race, their culture and their morality were superior to all others 
and by virtue of that, doing good was not something they had to aspire to; 
everything they did was necessarily good because they did it.  

	Good was whatever they were, evil was whatever they were not.  
Hitler declared that Germany was he and he was Germany the only law that 
mattered was his will, and his devoted followers, themselves pawns to his 
greed, cheered.  It is not absolute power that corrupts absolutely, but 
absolute certainty.  After a massacre of Polish prisoners at one of the 
many mass gravesites that are the monuments to their movement, Himmler 
spoke to his troops, telling them that he knew their bloody work was taking 
a toll on them but that they need never doubt their cause, or what was in 
themselves.  "That we can do this," he told them, "and still remain moral 
men, is what makes us great."

KA> In closing, I encourage you to read THE PINK SWASTIKA, many of your 
KA> questions will be answered.      

	Would you also recommend they visit the U.S. Holocaust Memorial 
Museum?  Just last year they held an absolutely fascinating three day 
film/discussion panel regarding the persecution of homosexuals under the 
third reich, the evidence for which is specific, certain, and overwhelming.  
Denying it happened is an actively little different from denying the 
concentration camps themselves ever existed.  Only a lunatic, or a 
dedicated fan of applied human genocide, would bother.  Did you consult 
with Klaus Muller when you "researched" your book Abrams, or were the files 
of Paul Cameron enough?

KA> The record clearly shows the homosexuals were NEVER targeted for 
KA> extermination but were responsible for a disproportionately large 
KA> amount of brutality leading up to and during the Nazi era.

	Say, white people were a disproportionarely large segment of the 
nazi regeme too...right?  So I take it you think there's something wrong 
with being white...?

	I have a video tape at home, which I purchased at the U.S.  
Holocaust Memorial Museum, laden with interviews from people who were there 
and who actually survived not only the Nazi persecution of homosexuals, but 
subsequent persecutions in Liberated Germany, that is just a portion of the 
staggering mountain of evidence regarding what the third reich did to 
homosexuals.  Point of fact, their treatment of homosexuals was harsher 
towards Germans and other "Aryan" nationalities later brought into the 
Reich then towards those who were not.  In particular, accusations leveled 
against members of any nazi organization were reported directly to 
Himmler's office.  The fate of accused homosexuals among the lesser 
conquered peoples was left to the whim of the local commanders on the 
scene, there being not a whole lot of concern for homosexual behavior among 
people whom the nazis regarded as little more then beasts anyway.  All 
of this has been well documented by the USHMM.  But in any case, being able 
to see persecution depends on how well you can see the humanity of the 
people who are suffering under it.

	One of the people interviewed in the USHMM video had been castrated 
by the nazis.  Perhaps you would say that was not persecution, but merely 
punishment, meted out for breaking the laws against homosexuality.  It is a 
fact that after the war, the German government counted being imprisoned by 
the nazis for homosexuality, grotesquely broad and arbitrary as their laws 
regarding it had been (you could be arrested literally for just looking at 
another person of your own sex in a manner They thought was suggestive), as 
a prior criminal offence and people picked up for it again were treated 
more harshly even in democratic Germany because German law regarded them 
as repeat offenders.  Perhaps you would say that this was merely the price 
the lawless pay for their own criminal behavior?

	The central fact of the holocaust is the systematic extermination 
of european Jews, but that many others including homosexual people suffered 
horrifying fates at the hand of the Nazi machine is beyond question to 
anyone with a shred of intellectual honesty and an instinctive sense of 
basic human decency.  But then these people are not your intended readers, 
are they Abrams?  Does your publisher sell books on how to make fertilizer 
explosives too by any chance...?


	
-- 
 -Bruce Garrett       \     finger bruceg@access.digex.net
  Cockeysville, MD.   / \   Disclaimer: I do not speak for the homosexual 
                                        conspiracy.  I only work here.


From bzs@world.std.com Thu Sep 14 07:01:07 PDT 1995
Article: 7212 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsjunkie.ans.net!philabs!uunet!in2.uu.net!world!bzs
From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: EVERYTHING ABOUT IT (AUSCHWITZ I) IS FALSE
In-Reply-To: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com's message of 8 Sep 1995 02:40:24 GMT
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References: <993813wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk> <42co1k$nvi@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
	
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 03:59:47 GMT
Lines: 31


From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
>> Note that the "tout y est faux" quote clearly refers to some of the 
>> dimensions, the placement of the doors, and so on being incorrect, and *not* 
>> that the gas chamber is a fake.
>
>How do you know the "gas chamber" is not a fake ... do you have drawings
>or photos of the non-fake "gas chamber"? 

*YOU'RE* the one selling the Leuchter report which claims to have
found cyanide traces in this gas chamber you now seem to find
convenient to call a fake.

How did the cyanide get into those walls? Why did y'all hire Leuchter
to go measure this cyanide if you actually believed the thing was a
fake?

The real question is:

	When are you holocaust-deniers going to get your lies straight?

(I suppose his defense will be he's no longer selling the Leuchter
report, it was a piece of crap and Leuchter was a phony who I think
IHR finally realized conned them out of some money.)


-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


From greg.ihr@kaiwan.com Wed Sep 20 07:05:59 PDT 1995
Article: 8307 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsjunkie.ans.net!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!news.uoregon.edu!kaiwan.kaiwan.com!kaiwan086.kaiwan.com!user
From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.illuminati,alt.politics.correct,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads,can.general,can.legal,can.politics,ont.general,tor.general
Subject: Re: ZUNDEL: THE LEGEND CONTINUES!!!  He's a Nazi!
Date: 20 Sep 1995 04:55:42 GMT
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 17
Message-ID: 
References: <415d5a$j4m@knot.queensu.ca> <42cnvg$nvi@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <42lgff$uqs@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>  <434vhd$2i2@ionews.io.org>  <43b5ed$ci1@ionews.io.org>
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In article <43b5ed$ci1@ionews.io.org>, lzaird@io.org (lzaird) wrote:

> To address your obviously wrong belief that Zundel is somehow NOT a
> neo-Nazi, I emplore you to take a look at his Web-Site, I'm sure you
> know where it is.

Why go to that much trouble? Mike Wallace accused Zundel of being a
neo-Nazi, and Ernst denied it, pointing out that he's a Nazi.

There's a big difference, and I'm sure Ernst would appreciate it if you
would get your facts straight on this one.

-- 
Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
Or, come visit my home page at http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr
The Institute for Historical Review can be reached at:
P.O. Box 241556, Newport Beach, CA 92659


From greg.ihr@kaiwan.com Wed Sep 20 07:06:00 PDT 1995
Article: 8315 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsjunkie.ans.net!gatech!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news.uoregon.edu!kaiwan.kaiwan.com!kaiwan086.kaiwan.com!user
From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: WHO FOUND ANNE FRANK 'S DIARY?
Date: 20 Sep 1995 05:07:59 GMT
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 23
Message-ID: 
References: <90257246wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk> <889775526wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk> <42thia$okd@access4.digex.net> <255099321wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
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In article <255099321wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>, jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk wrote:

> At issue here is the origin of the diaries.

Perhaps. But I think it is more important 1) to look at what the "diary"
says, and 2) to look at what happened to Anne Frank herself.

On point 1, the "diary" numerous times recounts how the family is clomping
around, vacuuming, and generally making an incredible amount of noise for
people supposedly in hiding. As Faurisson has pointed out, their actions
as spoken of in the "diary" are not those of people in fear of discovery.

On point 2, Anne Frank did not die in a Nazi gas chamber. She died of
typhus. She did not die at the so-called factory of mass murder, Auschwitz
(where she was, for a time), but rather at Bergen-Belsen. Thus, Anne Frank
is in a way proof of the revisionist position on Holocaust extermination
stories.

-- 
Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
Or, come visit my home page at http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr
The Institute for Historical Review can be reached at:
P.O. Box 241556, Newport Beach, CA 92659


From greg.ihr@kaiwan.com Wed Sep 20 10:27:32 PDT 1995
Article: 8356 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsjunkie.ans.net!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news.uoregon.edu!kaiwan.kaiwan.com!kaiwan086.kaiwan.com!user
From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: COKE SENT TO AUSCHWITZ
Date: 20 Sep 1995 05:11:13 GMT
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 24
Message-ID: 
References: <787410253wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
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In article <787410253wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>, jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk wrote:

> In article:   bzs@world.std.com (Barry 
> Shein) writes:
> >
> > Oh and what the heck, the piece of evidence Mr Raven et al hates so
> > much. The Franke-Gricksch report, a report made by a Nazi officer after
> > his inspection of Auschwitz and submitted to Heinrich Himmler in 1943:

Me? I don't hate the F-G report -- I love it. It is such an obvious
forgery. I even have a file dedicated to it on my Web site (address
below). Check it out.

> How much coke was sent to fuel the Auschwitz Krema?

One good source for answers to this question can be found in Carlo
Mattogno's Auschwitz: The End of the Legend, published by the Institute
for Historical Review.

-- 
Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
Or, come visit my home page at http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr
The Institute for Historical Review can be reached at:
P.O. Box 241556, Newport Beach, CA 92659


From greg.ihr@kaiwan.com Wed Sep 20 10:27:33 PDT 1995
Article: 8363 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsjunkie.ans.net!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!news.uoregon.edu!kaiwan.kaiwan.com!kaiwan086.kaiwan.com!user
From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.illuminati,alt.politics.correct,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads,can.general,can.legal,can.politics,ont.general,tor.general
Subject: Re: ZUNDEL: THE LEGEND CONTINUES!!!  He's a Nazi!
Date: 20 Sep 1995 04:58:30 GMT
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 15
Message-ID: 
References: <415d5a$j4m@knot.queensu.ca> <42cnvg$nvi@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <42lgff$uqs@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>  <434vhd$2i2@ionews.io.org>  <43b5ed$ci1@ionews.io.org>
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In article <43b5ed$ci1@ionews.io.org>, lzaird@io.org (lzaird) wrote:

> I've openly challenged him to a debate here on Usenet...no offers to
> attend though.  I've E-Mailed him, telling him I have challenged
> him...no reply.  He's avoiding the confrontation. 

If you are referring to Zundel, you should be aware that he has no
connection to the Internet, so engaging in a debate with you or anyone
else is problemmatical for him.

-- 
Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
Or, come visit my home page at http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr
The Institute for Historical Review can be reached at:
P.O. Box 241556, Newport Beach, CA 92659


From greg.ihr@kaiwan.com Thu Sep 21 12:54:42 PDT 1995
Article: 8421 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!netnet2.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.uoregon.edu!kaiwan.kaiwan.com!kaiwan103.kaiwan.com!user
From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: How Greg Raven Answered My Questions
Date: 21 Sep 1995 04:45:29 GMT
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 20
Message-ID: 
References: <43p03q$fil@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu>
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In article <43p03q$fil@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu>, cacst9+@pitt.edu (Cecelia
A Clancy) wrote:

> Greg,
> 
> I see you're back.   I am posting this e-mail you sent me because
> it was in response to what I posted a while back. 


Thank you very much for posting e-mail without first gaining my
permission. Fortunately for you, you are an anti-revisionist, so those on
this newsgroup who pretend to become really really upset when something
such as this happens to them won't so much as bat an eyelash in your
direction.

-- 
Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
Or, come visit my home page at http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr
The Institute for Historical Review can be reached at:
P.O. Box 241556, Newport Beach, CA 92659


From greg.ihr@kaiwan.com Sat Sep 23 20:35:02 PDT 1995
Article: 8953 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsjunkie.ans.net!howland.reston.ans.net!plug.news.pipex.net!pipex!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!news.uoregon.edu!kaiwan.kaiwan.com!kaiwan082.kaiwan.com!user
From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Simon Wiesenthal: Bogus "nazi Hunter"
Date: 23 Sep 1995 23:02:08 GMT
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 17
Message-ID: 
References: <43qbh4$ih3@inforamp.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan082.kaiwan.com
X-Newsreader: Value-Added NewsWatcher 2.0b27.1+

In article <43qbh4$ih3@inforamp.net>, Tmason@inforamp.net (Tyrone Mason) wrote:

>                  SIMON WIESENTHAL: Bogus "Nazi Hunter"
> 
>                              by Mark Weber


Those interested in this topic will find an updated and expanded version
of this article/pamphlet in the latest Journal of Historical Review,
volume 15 number 4, July/August 1995, which also contains an article about
the Simon Wiesenthal Center in Los Angeles.

-- 
Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
Or, come visit my home page at http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr
The Institute for Historical Review can be reached at:
P.O. Box 241556, Newport Beach, CA 92659


From greg.ihr@kaiwan.com Sat Sep 23 20:35:03 PDT 1995
Article: 8957 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsjunkie.ans.net!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!news.uoregon.edu!kaiwan.kaiwan.com!kaiwan090.kaiwan.com!user
From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.illuminati,alt.politics.correct,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads,can.general,can.legal,can.politics,ont.general,tor.general
Subject: Re: ZUNDEL: THE LEGEND CONTINUES!!!  He's a Nazi!
Date: 23 Sep 1995 23:49:32 GMT
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 26
Message-ID: 
References: <415d5a$j4m@knot.queensu.ca>  <43b5ed$ci1@ionews.io.org>  <43pmq6$6bj@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <43tq03$7um@inforamp.net> 
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In article , anakin@pinc.com
(Rajiv K. Gandhi) wrote:

> In article <43tq03$7um@inforamp.net>, cpn@inforamp.net (Marc Lemire) wrote:
> 
> > Could you please point out this so-called connection Mr. Zundel has.
> 
> Lemire, your stupidity amazes me to no end.
> 
> Zundel's email address is: ezundel@cts.com
> Zundel's website connection is: http://www.webcom.com/~ezundel
>                               (taken from your own pathetic advertisement)
> 
> Zundel obviously has an ISP provider. Zundel obviously has an INTERNET
> connection. 

What is not so obvious is that Zundel himself is not connected to it. He
has a Webmaster who handles all the posting and other Internet chores for
him. The only way Zundel will get e-mail to the ezundel@cts.com address is
when his Webmaster forwards prints it out and faxes or mails it to him.

-- 
Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
Or, come visit my home page at http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr
The Institute for Historical Review can be reached at:
P.O. Box 241556, Newport Beach, CA 92659


From greg.ihr@kaiwan.com Sat Sep 23 23:28:54 PDT 1995
Article: 8998 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!netnet2.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.clark.net!rahul.net!a2i!bug.rahul.net!a2i!kaiwan.kaiwan.com!kaiwan082.kaiwan.com!user
From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 66 Questions about the Holocaust
Date: 23 Sep 1995 22:53:20 GMT
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 27
Message-ID: 
References: <43qb72$ih3@inforamp.net> <43tmru$m78@rover.ucs.ualberta.ca>
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In article <43tmru$m78@rover.ucs.ualberta.ca>, jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca
(John Morris) wrote:

> What is not admitted as a possibility is that historians, and others
> like Wiesenthal, have attempted repeatedly over the years to dispel
> several myths about the Holocaust: the mass production of soap made
> from human fat is a good example. Another is that while there were
> homicidal gassings "on German soil" they were on a much smaller scale
> than the gassings in the camps in Poland such as Belzec, Treblinka,
> Sobibor, Kulmhof, Lublin, and Auschwitz-Birkenau. Aside from some
> comparatively small-scale gassing in places like Mathausen (actually
> in Austria), gassing in Germany was largely confined to the T4
> "euthanasia" program.
> 
> What is not given any recognition by the Revisionists is that the
> latest "admission" by Wiesenthal is exactly what respectable
> historians have been saying for the past 45 years starting perhaps
> with the Munich-based Institute of Contemporary History in 1950.

So are you saying that only unrespectable historians repeat stories about
gas chambers at Dachau, and about Nazis making soap from Jews?

-- 
Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
Or, come visit my home page at http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr
The Institute for Historical Review can be reached at:
P.O. Box 241556, Newport Beach, CA 92659


From greg.ihr@kaiwan.com Sun Sep 24 14:27:24 PDT 1995
Article: 9096 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsjunkie.ans.net!swiss.ans.net!good.freedom.net!news.pepboys.com!news.corpcomm.net!news.uoregon.edu!kaiwan.kaiwan.com!kaiwan102.kaiwan.com!user
From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 66 Questions about the Holocaust
Date: 24 Sep 1995 18:33:48 GMT
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 59
Message-ID: 
References: <43qb72$ih3@inforamp.net> <43tmru$m78@rover.ucs.ualberta.ca>  <442bnc$gl2@rover.ucs.ualberta.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan102.kaiwan.com
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In article <442bnc$gl2@rover.ucs.ualberta.ca>, jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca
(John Morris) wrote:

> greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) wrote:
> 
> >So are you saying that only unrespectable historians repeat stories about
> >gas chambers at Dachau, and about Nazis making soap from Jews?
> 
> Did I mention the soap stories? Did the question from your pamphlet
> mention the soap stories? I was addressing the way that a question in
> your pamphlet constructs the responses of historians to the question
> of mass gassings at Dachau.
> 
> The only people that seem to believe that Dachau was an extermination
> centre where mass gassings took place are journalists and people who
> rely on newspapers for their history. Historians have attempted to
> correct that misapprehension but with apparently limited success.
> 
> The main point of my post was that successive revisions of the IHR's
> pamphlet take the latest of those efforts and make them seem as if the
> "truth" has only just come out when historians have been trying to
> dispel myths about the Holocaust for some time.
> 
> Nevertheless, that you avoid the main point of my post to focus on the
> one word "respectable" and ignore the implication that the IHR, an
> organization that you work for, profits from peddling lies.

You should watch your own posts for lies, too. The IHR receives on the
average of two letters and/or articles per month from American GIs who
were at Dachau and saw gas chambers. Are you saying that these people are
journalists or were reading a newspaper when they were at Dachau?

As for the human soap story, even Simon Wiesenthal repeated that one.

You seem to be trying to make the point that there is some group of true
historians somewhere who has always known all the details of the
Holocaust, and it is just some troublesome no-nothings who are muddying
the historical record. This is an utter falsehood. "Human soap" was
produced at the Nuremberg trials, for example, along with testimony as to
how it was made, allegedly by someone who had actually made it!

As for gassings at Dachau, the "evidence" for gassings at this camp, where
your "true historians" apparently no longer claim there were any Nazi gas
chambers, is just as good (if not better) than "evidence" for gassing at
Auschwitz, Birkenau, Majdanek, and the others. How is it that you are
uniquely qualified to say "Those old soap stories and those old Dachau gas
chamber stories are false in spite of the evidence, but these other
stories are true."? At the same time, of course, you criticize
revisionists who say -- and rightly so -- if the evidence for what are now
acknowledged to be fables is tainted and not to be believed, then why
should we believe this other, similar "evidence"?

The doulble standard you propose simply is not good historiography.

-- 
Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
Or, come visit my home page at http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr
The Institute for Historical Review can be reached at:
P.O. Box 241556, Newport Beach, CA 92659


From greg.ihr@kaiwan.com Mon Sep 25 07:50:46 PDT 1995
Article: 9171 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!news.bc.net!news.uoregon.edu!kaiwan.kaiwan.com!kaiwan099.kaiwan.com!user
From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Introduction to Mason's "straight facts"
Date: 24 Sep 1995 22:53:00 GMT
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 60
Message-ID: 
References: <43qatv$ih3@inforamp.net>  <4417i2$g75@inforamp.net> <441oa5$bpr@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <44419f$2vq@inforamp.net>
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In article <44419f$2vq@inforamp.net>, Tmason@inforamp.net (Tyrone Mason) wrote:

> >Speaking of getting one's information straight, Mr. Mason...
> 
> >In your recent article "66 Questions & Answers," you included
> >the following:
> 
> >   5. AUSCHWITZ WAS IN POLAND, NOT GERMANY. IS THERE ANY PROOF 
> >      THAT GAS CHAMBERS FOR THE PURPOSE OF KILLING HUMAN BEINGS 
> >      EXISTED AT OR IN AUSCHWITZ? 
> > 
> >   No. A reward of $50,000 was offered for such proof, the money
> >   being held in trust by a bank, but no one came up with any
> >   credible evidence. Auschwitz, captured by the Soviets, was
> >   extensively modified after the war and mortuaries were
> >   reconstructed to look like large "gas chambers." It is now a 
> >   big tourist attraction for the communist Polish government. 
> 
> >That information is factually incorrect, Mr. Mason. It is, in
> >fact, a blatent lie. Given your apparent wish that _others_
> >"get their information straight," and your obvious dedication
> >to Truth, will you now retract this lie?


There is no specification as to which part of this statement is claimed to
be false. There was a reward off of $50,000 for such proof, and no one
came forward with evidence. This is a fact. It is also a fact that rooms
that are presented to the world now as having been gas chambers were
"reconstructed." Can you be more specific about the falsehood you claim to
find?


> >In yet another article, you including the following:
> 
> >   Even _The Diary of Anne Frank_ is a hoax.  Portions of 
> >   the diary were written with a ball point pen.  These pens 
> >   were not in use at the time Anne Frank lived.
> 
> >Since the government of the Netherlands has conclusively
> >demonstrated that this is a false assertion - and noted that
> >the ball point pen writing appeared on two slips of paper
> >inserted (perhaps as placemarks) into the diary, and no-where
> >else, will you now retract your false assertion, and admit
> >that your "information" wasn't "straight?"


Obviously, portions of the "diary" of which millions of copies have been
published and sold were written in ball-point pen. That is why, after the
Netherlands conducted their big investigation into the authenticity of the
"diary," issued a new, "definitive" edition. Are you saying that this
"definitive" edition still contains the portions written in ball-point
pen? Clearly, for there to be a definitive edition, there must first be an
admission that the well-known "Diary" had in fact been altered by someone
other than Anne Frank.

-- 
Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
Or, come visit my home page at http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr
The Institute for Historical Review can be reached at:
P.O. Box 241556, Newport Beach, CA 92659


From greg.ihr@kaiwan.com Mon Sep 25 22:21:08 PDT 1995
Article: 9246 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsjunkie.ans.net!howland.reston.ans.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!news.uoregon.edu!kaiwan.kaiwan.com!kaiwan078.kaiwan.com!user
From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.discrimination,alt.skinheads,can.politics,can.general,tor.general
Subject: Re: THE REVISIONISTS HAVE LOST!!!!!
Date: 26 Sep 1995 02:16:09 GMT
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 35
Message-ID: 
References: <4454d2$jmu@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <1995Sep25.084956.1655@wpg.ramp.net>
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In article <1995Sep25.084956.1655@wpg.ramp.net>, Joe Lockhart
 wrote:

> 
> Hm... Who has won?
> 
> Before Zundel: 4 million killed at Auschwitz
> After Zundel: 1.1 to 1.5 dead.
> 
> Before Zundel: Lamp shades made of Jew skin.
> After Zundel: Never mentioned in new Holocaust (tm) books
> 
> Befor Zundel: Soap made from dead Jews.
> After Zundel: Admission from Jews that this is a lie.
> 
> Get the picture??? 

Didn't the Zundelmachine also crush Vrba, who admitted that his accounts
of Auschwitz/Birkenau were not to be taken literally, and Raul Hilberg,
who retreated from his position that there were two "Hitler orders" (to
exterminate the Jews), as well as from his position on Gerstein? Hilberg
was so badly beat up he refused to participate in the second Zundel trial.

And what about the furor over the "reconstructed" "gas chambers"? The
testimony of execution hardware expert Fred Leuchter caused a ripple
effect that is still making itself felt in academic circles, to the point
where now even mainstream news sources are admitting that the "gas
chambers" are NOT in their original state, as was previously stated to be
a fact.

-- 
Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
Or, come visit my home page at http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr
The Institute for Historical Review can be reached at:
P.O. Box 241556, Newport Beach, CA 92659


From greg.ihr@kaiwan.com Tue Sep 26 11:58:13 PDT 1995
Article: 9344 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsjunkie.ans.net!howland.reston.ans.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!news.uoregon.edu!kaiwan.kaiwan.com!kaiwan075.kaiwan.com!user
From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Baron & Himmlers Speech at Poznan
Date: 26 Sep 1995 05:09:44 GMT
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 33
Distribution: world
Message-ID: 
References: <5uKjz-WhkoB@sputnik.tng.oche.de> <811881153snz@abaron.demon.co.uk> <447f5t$2t1k@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
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In article <447f5t$2t1k@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>, gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord
McFee) wrote:

> The only proof Al will accept is Himmler's sworn statement, from beyond the 
> grave, that the speech is genuine and the Endloesung really was attempted.  
> The typical craven attitude.


Without undercutting Mr. Baron, let's assume for the sake af argument that
the Himmler speech at Posen to which you refer is genuine as commonly
represented and the Endlosung was really attempted.

First, Himmler's speech, while harsh, does not mention anything about
loading Jews (or others) into gas chambers. Therefore, this speech in no
way supports one of the most persistant and ridiculous allegations about
the Holocaust, which is that the there were these magical Nazi gas
chambers for exterminating Jews.

Second, if you put Himmler's speech into context by comparing it against
other similar speeches he gave to other audiences during this same time
frame, you can see that he isn't talking about wiping out the Jews at all.

Third and finally, of COURSE there was an attempt made at the Endlosung
("final solution") to the "Jewish problem:" it was to get the Jews to
leave Europe, voluntarily if possible and by force if necessary, but the
Nazis wanted the Jews to leave. Note that this is NOT the same as a policy
of mass extermination.

-- 
Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
Or, come visit my home page at http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr
The Institute for Historical Review can be reached at:
P.O. Box 241556, Newport Beach, CA 92659


From greg.ihr@kaiwan.com Sun Oct  1 00:54:14 PDT 1995
Article: 10025 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsjunkie.ans.net!howland.reston.ans.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!news.uoregon.edu!kaiwan.kaiwan.com!kaiwan088.kaiwan.com!user
From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Wetzel's "letter" about gas chambers
Date: 1 Oct 1995 06:17:03 GMT
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
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In article <1995Sep27.044832@miavx1>, responding to my statement that
Himmler¹s Posen speech does not mention gas chambers, and therefore does
not support one of the most persistant and ridiculous allegations about
the Holocaust (that being the magical gas chambers for exterminating
Jews), Brian Harmon wrote:

>Would you prefer documents that talk about gas chambers, Mr. Raven?
>
>Archive/File: holocaust/germany/documents no-365
>Last-Modified: 1994/07/14
>
>Document: NO-365:
>
>   Letter from Dr.  Erhard Wetzel to Reichskommissar Lohse, October
>   25, 1941
>
>   "With regard to my letter of 18 October 1941, please be informed
>
> (snip -- reproduced below)
>
>                           Work Cited
>
>   Fleming, G. Hitler and the Final Solution. University of 
>      California Press, 1984


Those who are not familiar with the literature should know that the source
cited, Gerald Fleming, has a little trouble with his documents. In
addition to this document, he has also quoted a so-called "Resettlement
Action Report" by a certain Franke-Gricksch. This "Report" is a fake, as
can be readily demonstrated. (For more information, consult 

http://www.kaiwan.com:80/~greg.ihr/misc/fg.html

In no particular order, let¹s look at some interesting facts about this
document:

1) The document cited above is in fact NOT a letter, but a draft of a
letter, one that while initialled by Wetzel, it is NOT SIGNED and bears no
evidence that it was sent. There exists no other evidence that it was
sent.

2) The reason this document is not used more often in the fight against
revisionists is that most anti-revisionists now avoid using it, even among
themselves. This is obvious in the fact that there would be no split
between the "Intentionalists" and the "Functionalists" if NO-365 were a
valid document, for NO-365 would have been proof of the "Intentionalists"
position.

3) Brack himself denied all the relevant portions of the letter that
concern him, as seen in the transcript of his uestioning at the NMT [Green
Series, Volume 1, pages 888-889, as found in the NWCT CD-ROM, copyright
Aristarchus Knowledge Industries 1995.]:

============================================

Q. I want to put to you NO-997, which is Prosecution Exhibit 506 for
identification, your Honors. This is a draft of a letter from the Reich
Minister for the Occupied Eastern Territories to the Reich Commissioner
for the East:

"Solution of the Jewish Problem. Reference: Your report of 10/4/1941,
concerning the solution of the Jewish problem.

"I have no objection against your suggestion for the solution of the
Jewish problem. Attached please find a memorandum concerning the
conversation between my expert consultant, Amtsterichtsrat Dr. Wetzel,
Oberdienstleiter Brack of the Chancellery of the Fuehrer, and
Sturmbannfuehrer Eichmann, expert consultant to the Reich Security Main
Office. Please note the details of the matter from this memo. Will you
please take the necessary steps at the Reich Security Main Office and with
Oberdienstleiter Brack from the Chancellery of the Fuehrer via your Higher
SS and Police Leader. Please keep me informed.

[Handwritten] F. d. H. M., [For the Minister]

"2d Copy, (a) Reich Security Main office, (b) Chancellery of the Fuehrer
Attention: Oberdienstleiter Brack, Copy of (1), including enclosure for
information."

Did you receive a copy of this letter?

A [Brack]. May I first ask you what the date of this letter is?

Q. Only 1941 is mentioned here. But that is the date I told you. Did you
receive a copy of this letter, Herr Brack?

A. I did not receive a copy of it nor did I even see a copy of that
letter, nor do I know this Amtsgerichtsrat Wetzel.

Q. Did you have a conference with Eichmann on this problem, on the
solution of the Jewish question?

A. I already said I cannot even remember the name Eichmann, nor can I
remember the name Wetzel.

Q. Do you know anything about the matters discussed at this conference
concerning the solution of the Jewish problem?

A. No. I know nothing.

Q. You have no idea. You never made any suggestions as to what kind of
treatment or what kind of gas chambers should be used for the solution of
the Jewish problem? You never did that?

A. I can remember nothing in this connection.

Q. You were questioned by the Tribunal last Friday as to whether plans
were made for the construction of the gas chambers in the euthanasia
stations or whether an engineer or specialist was ordered to assist the
directors of the stations in setting up such gas chambers, were you not?

Q. You were not able to give any information to the Tribunal on that fact,
were you?

A. No. I said I didn't concern myself with these matters.

Q. Is the name Kallmeyer, K-a-l-l-m-e-y-e-r, familiar to you?

A. Yes. But I can't remember in which connection.

Q. His wife executed an affidavit for you here. (Brack 39, Brack Ex. 23.)
Do you remember him now?

A. Yes. Yes, I remember him now.

Q. Was Kallmeyer the engineer, or was he a chemist, who made these plans
for gas chambers and assisted the directors in euthanasia stations in
setting up these gas chambers?

A. No. Kallmeyer had to check that the gas chambers were operating
properly, but I don't believe he made any plans for that purpose.

Q. Kallmeyer was the man who supervised these gas chambers, was he not?

A. I believe so, yes, but not for long, only for a short time.

Q. All right. And does the name Kallmeyer refresh your memory as to
eventual plans you made together with Eichmann about the solution of the
Jewish problem, Herr Brack?

Q. I want to put to you Document NO-365, which will be Prosecution Exhibit
507 for identification, your Honors. This is a draft from the Reich
Ministry for the Occupied Territories dated Berlin, 10/2/1941.

"Referent AGR. Dr. Wetzel "Re: Solution of the Jewish Question "1. To the
Reich Commissioner for the East "Re: Your Report of 10/4/1941 Concerning
Solution of the Jewish question "Referring to my letter of 10/18/1941, you
are informed that Oberdienstleiter Brack of the Chancellery of the Fuehrer
has declared himself ready to collaborate in the manufacture of the
necessary shelters, as well as the gassing apparatus. At the present time
the apparatus in question are not on hand in the Reich in sufficient
number they will first have to be manufactured. Since in Brack's opinion
the manufacture of the apparatus in the Reich will cause more difficulty
than if manufactured on the spot, Brack deems it most expedient to send
his people direct to Riga, especially his chemist Dr. Kallmeyer, who will
have everything further done there. Oberdienstleiter Brack points out that
the process in question is not without danger, so that special protective
measures are necessary. Under these circumstances I beg you to turn to
Oberdienstleiter Brack, in the Chancellery of the Fuehrer, through your ,
Higher SS and Police Leader and to request the dispatch of the chemist Dr.
Kallmeyer as well as of further aides. I draw attention to the fact that
Sturmbannfuehrer Eichmann, the referent for Jewish questions in the RSHA,
is in agreement with this process. On information from Sturmbannfuehrer
Eichmann, camps for Jews to be set up in Riga and Minsk to which Jews from
the old Reich territory may possibly be sent. At the present time, Jews
being deported from the old Reich are to be sent to Litzmannstadt, [Lodz]
but also to other camps, to be later used as labor in the East so far as
they are able to work.

"As affairs now stand, there are no objections against doing away with
those Jews who are unable to work with the Brack remedy. In this way
occurrences would no longer be possible such as those il which, according
to a report presently before me, took place at the hooting of Jews in
Vilna and which, considering that the shootings were public, were hardly
excusable. Those able to work, on the other hand, will be transported to
the East for labor service. It is self-understood that among the Jews
capable of work, men and women are to be kept separate.

"I beg you to advise me regarding your further steps."

Herr Brack, are you still going to maintain what you said here in direct
examination, namely, that you tried to protect the Jews and to save the
Jews from their terrible fate and that you were never a champion of the
extermination program?

A. I should even like to maintain that misuse, terrible misuse, was made
of my name. I see from this letter and from the date of this letter that
all these negotiations were carried out at a time when I was familiar away
>from  Berlin, when I was on sick leave. If I have the possibility I hope I
shall be able to bring witnesses who will testify to that effect. I must
frankly admit that at this period something was going on which entirely
contradicted my opinion, but this could only have been done under misuse
of my name and my agency. I was not willing to participate in these
things.

=====================================================

4) Adolf Eichmann also denied discussing gas chambers with Wetzel.
According to Raul Hilberg (The Destruction of the European Jews, 1985,
page 875, 24n):

"In Jerusalem, Eichmann declared that he had NOT discussed gas chambers
with Wetzel. Eichmann trial transcript, June 23, 1961, sess. 78, p. R1;
July 17, 1961, sess. 98, p. Bb1."

5) Wetzel was never punished for his alleged role in this matter.
According to Ingrid Weckert, who wrote an eleven-page study of this
document in June 1990, Wetzel had no trouble after the war with the Allies
and worked for the UN in Cuba. In 1961, he was indicted by a German
magistrate in Hannover. Wetzel was not asked any questions about the
"Vergasungsapparate" mentioned in the letter, and to this day we have no
idea what this means. The prosecutor was satisfied with Wetzel¹s answers,
and decided there would be no trial.

6) No one now claims there were gassings in Riga.

Please remember that we are constantly told that the Holocaust is the
best-documented event in history, yet supporters of the Holocaust
extermination stories are forced to rely on documents such as NO-365 that
are essentially worthless. Rather than hunt up further worthless
documents, it would be far better for the anti-revisionists to meet Robert
Faurisson¹s challenge:

"Show me or draw me a Nazi gas chamber."

The reason they have not done so, of course, is because they cannot: no
such gas chamber exists.

-- 
Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
Or, come visit my home page at http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr
The Institute for Historical Review can be reached at:
P.O. Box 241556, Newport Beach, CA 92659



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