From greg.ihr@kaiwan.com Sat Jun 17 04:50:06 PDT 1995
Article: 22253 of alt.revisionism
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,talk.politics.misc
Subject: Re: Engineer Says - NO HOLOCAUST * NO WAY * NO HOW !
Date: 15 Jun 1995 13:07:44 GMT
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
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In article <3rebno$5eu@ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>, rbohle1@ix.netcom.com
(Robert Bohle) wrote:

> In <3rd8bg$juo@ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> forman@ix.netcom.com (Frank
> Forman) writes: 

> >Frank
> >
> >>Perhaps our nameless denier would like to explain this interesting
> and
> >>amusing situation... how he, and his brothers of the cloth, continue
> >to
> >>prattle about a number that has rarely, if ever, been taken seriously
> >by
> >>anyone but the Communists who dreamed it up in the first place.
> >>
> >>Amazing, simply amazing... perhaps it is time to keep a public tally,
> >>to be incremented by one every time some specious argument or other,
> >>based upon this bogus number, is raised here.

Never been taken seriously? Does this mean the Nuremberg Tribunal was not
serious? How about subsequent war crimes trials, which repeated the
figures "established" at Nuremberg ... were they not serious either?

This is a common anti-revisionist trick, to claim that outrageous
Holocaust fictions that have been making the rounds in official and
unofficial publications alike, were never accepted by some undefined group
of "scholors," and that revisionists are wrong to point out that the
erroneous information is, welle, wrong.

If this is the case, then these anonymous "scholars" should join the
revisionists in rectifying the image of the Holocaust.

-- 
Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
Or, come visit my home page at http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr
The Institute for Historical Review can be reached at:
P.O. Box 241556, Newport Beach, CA 92659


From kfilan@netcom.com Sat Jun 17 15:41:43 PDT 1995
Article: 22274 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,talk.politics.misc
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From: kfilan@netcom.com (kevin filan)
Subject: Re: Engineer Says - NO HOLOCAUST * NO WAY * NO HOW !
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Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com) wrote:

: > >>Amazing, simply amazing... perhaps it is time to keep a public tally,
: > >>to be incremented by one every time some specious argument or other,
: > >>based upon this bogus number, is raised here.

: Never been taken seriously? Does this mean the Nuremberg Tribunal was not
: serious? How about subsequent war crimes trials, which repeated the
: figures "established" at Nuremberg ... were they not serious either?

: This is a common anti-revisionist trick, to claim that outrageous
: Holocaust fictions that have been making the rounds in official and
: unofficial publications alike, were never accepted by some undefined group
: of "scholors," and that revisionists are wrong to point out that the
: erroneous information is, welle, wrong.


	Hello again, Mr. Raven.

	Actually, that's a very interesting point.  Would you mind 
posting the tallies given at Nuremburg? I'd been led to believe that the 
official death toll at Auschwitz ala Nuremburg was around 2.5 million, 
not 4 million, but of course I could be wrong.

	Also:

	1) You seem to believe that the Germans had a policy not of 
extermination of their undesirables but of deportation.  Do you have any 
idea _where_ all these "deportees" are.  After all, there used to be a 
large population of Jews in Poland... there are only a few thousand left 
now.  Same goes for Germany.  

	A lot of people believe that these Jews are "behind the Iron 
Curtain."  The Iron Curtain no longer exists; perhaps you could point out 
an area where large numbers of these Jews currently reside?

	2) What would you accept as evidence that a room was actually a 
gas chamber or that a photo/drawing/whatever was genuine and not a fake 
or a forgery? 

	3) What is your opinion of the rabid anti-Semitism and racism 
shown by a few of your revisionist cohorts? (i.e. the now famous "Jews 
are maggots" quote of Ricky Joshua, or Les Griswold's "six megakikes" 
statement).  How do you feel the revisionist movement should deal with 
these people?

	4) Why do you suppose Zyklon-B was shipped to the camps without 
an irritant aromatic? 

	You've missed these questions the last two times around:  I'm 
sure you've been busy.  I know how it goes: I have not been able to 
devote as  much time to research and suchlike lately as I would like.  
Maybe this time you can find a little time to answer these questions; I 
am still looking forward to your replies.
-- 
________________________________________________________________
Kevin Filan			*	P.O. Box 231582
kfilan@netcom.com		*	Old Statehouse Station
Rakshasa PODSnet, FidoNet, IRC	*	Hartford, CT 06123
________________________________________________________________   
"Toto... I don't think we're in Kansas anymore..."


From dkeren@world.std.com Sun Jun 18 15:44:43 PDT 1995
Article: 22297 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,talk.politics.misc
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From: dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
Subject: Re: Engineer Says - NO HOLOCAUST * NO WAY * NO HOW !
Message-ID: 
Organization: The World, Public Access Internet, Brookline, MA
References: <3qocgi$6gm@agate.berkeley.edu> <3rebno$5eu@ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>  
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 1995 05:46:37 GMT
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Xref: news.port.island.net alt.revisionism:22297 talk.politics.misc:201823

kfilan@netcom.com (kevin filan) writes:
 
# Hello again, Mr. Raven.
 
[...]
 
# What is your opinion of the rabid anti-Semitism and racism 
# shown by a few of your revisionist cohorts?
 
What do you expect him to answer? He can't afford to lose
the few friends he has...
 
Also, considering Raven's great admiration for Adolf Hitler,
it's hard to assume that rabid anti-Semitism is something that
bothers him:
 
 

 
 Category 15,  Topic 4
 Message 33        Fri Mar 13, 1992
 G.RAVEN                      at 03:02 EST
 
My only concern is in going after the facts. As such, I am not 
interested in defending Adolf Hitler to my dying breath. I will say,
however, that he was a great man ... certainly greater than
Churchill and FDR put together, and possibly the greatest leader of 
our century, if not longer. This is not to say that he was perfect, 
but he about the best thing that could have happened to Germany.
 

 
 
-Danny Keren.




From dkeren@world.std.com Sat Jun 24 10:31:49 PDT 1995
Article: 22587 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
Subject: Re: IHR leadership/financial woes
Message-ID: 
Organization: The World, Public Access Internet, Brookline, MA
References: <3sc71i$k9r@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>  
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 1995 07:49:14 GMT
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Greg Raven  wrote:

# I should mention that the IHR is far from dead, too. We are doing
# everything in our power to survive Carto's attacks. 

Does this mean you folks are once again beating the crap out of
each other, and pulling out loaded guns on one another, like in
the last time there was a fight over the control of the IHR?

Watch it folks - they will start saying Carto is a ZIONIST!! :-)

BTW, why do you admire Hitler so much?


 
 Category 15,  Topic 4
 Message 33        Fri Mar 13, 1992
 G.RAVEN                      at 03:02 EST
 
My only concern is in going after the facts. As such, I am not 
interested in defending Adolf Hitler to my dying breath. I will say,
however, that he was a great man ... certainly greater than
Churchill and FDR put together, and possibly the greatest leader of 
our century, if not longer. This is not to say that he was perfect, 
but he about the best thing that could have happened to Germany.




-Danny Keren.


From greg.ihr@kaiwan.com Sat Jun 24 10:31:52 PDT 1995
Article: 22591 of alt.revisionism
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What time is it, boys and girls?  It's AUSROTTEN time!
Date: 24 Jun 1995 13:15:01 GMT
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
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In article <3sf0fr$kuc@agate.berkeley.edu>, schultz@garnet.berkeley.edu
(Richard Schultz) wrote:

> Now, if "ausrotten" simply means to "uproot", why does Ley go on to say
> "Es is nicht genug, den Juden. . . auszugliedern" (It is not enough to
> separate out the Jews)?

I don't speak German, but from what I understand, even Robert Wolfe
(Formerly?) of the National Archives freely admits that "ausrotten" means
"uproot."

-- 
Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
Or, come visit my home page at http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr
The Institute for Historical Review can be reached at:
P.O. Box 241556, Newport Beach, CA 92659


From bzs@world.std.com Sat Jun 24 13:03:30 PDT 1995
Article: 22605 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: What time is it, boys and girls?  It's AUSROTTEN time!
In-Reply-To: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com's message of 24 Jun 1995 13:15:01 GMT
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Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
>I don't speak German, but from what I understand, even Robert Wolfe
>(Formerly?) of the National Archives freely admits that "ausrotten" means
>"uproot."

Could we have the full quote and context, Mr Raven?

We've seen your "work" often enough that it would not be hard to
believe that he said this in response to a question like "if one were
talking about gardening, then in that context could ausrotten perhaps
mean uproot?", and Wolfe answering yes. And then you show up here
claiming he said it means uproot.

We've now had quite a few native German speakers, and other sources of
authority, who have emphatically and without reservation say otherwise
within the context being discussed. It meant exterminate.

Besides, what's your point, one minute you're claiming you ONLY wish
to deny the gas chambers exist, but freely agree that the Nazis had a
murderous policy towards Jews. Then when it suits you you're back here
arguing the Nazis never mussed a hair on anyone's head. Who do you
think you're kidding?


-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


From jaklein@news.amherst.edu Sat Jun 24 16:36:49 PDT 1995
Article: 22609 of alt.revisionism
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From: jaklein@news.amherst.edu (Josh Klein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: IHR leadership/financial woes
Date: 24 Jun 1995 19:18:53 GMT
Organization: Amherst College, Amherst MA, USA
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Landpost writes:

>Carto already has a new historical-revisionist journal coming-out
>regularly, I should add here. It is advertised about 6 times per hour on
>the nightly short wave radio show, "Radio Free America." (7355 on the
>dial, I think) I think it is called "The Barnes Review." I have learned
>the number of subscribers is already over 9000.


To which Greg Raven responds:

>I should mention that the IHR is far from dead, too. We are doing
>everything in our power to survive Carto's attacks. Also, one of the
>reasons why The Barnes Review has such a high circulation is that Carto
>gave away thousands of free subscriptions. It, like all other
>Carto-controlled enterprises, is losing money at a breathtaking rate.


Uh Oh!  Here they go!!!!

One side note:  You guys might not want to have another open brawl at
IHR headquarters.  Those make for such bad p.r.


--
Josh Klein
Amherst College

(Is everyone else having as much fun with this as I am?)


From donvh@aol.com Sat Jun 24 16:36:53 PDT 1995
Article: 22612 of alt.revisionism
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From: donvh@aol.com (DonVH)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re:  AUSROTTEN
Date: 24 Jun 1995 15:57:29 -0400
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Mr. Raven mentions Robert Wolfe's interpretation of "ausrottung."  The
following is excerpted from an article from the Associated Press.  It is
entitled, "HIMMLER SPEECH SHOWN AT ARCHIVES"                              
                                      "A stark reminder of the Holocaust -
a speech by Nazi SS leader Heinrich Himmler that refers to the
"extermination of the Jewish race" - went on display yesterday at the
National Archives.   The documents, including handwritten notes by
Himmler, are among the best evidence that exists to rebut claims that the
Holocaust is a myth, archives experts say....The National Archives exhibit
has three items - a page each of Himmler's handwritten notes, a typed
transcript from the speech and an official translation made for the
Nuremberg war crimes trials...  The German word Himmler uses that is
translated as "exterminaton" is "Ausrottung."  Wolfe, the archivist
expert, said a more precise translation would be "extirpation" or "tearing
up by the roots."  In his handwritten notes, Himmler used a euphemism -
"Judenevakuierung," or "evacuation of the Jews."                          
                                                                          
                                  By the way, the return of the question
of the use of this word, "Ausrottung" came when Mr. Roberts asked if it
was the word meaning "extermination" used in the Wannsee Protocol.  It was
not.  In the Wannsee Protocol there is no question of "Ausrottung" but
only of "Zuruckdrangung" (refoulement, expulsion).                        
                                                                          
                                       Some are quick to quote Cassell's
New German Dictionary on this issue.  I have referred to a copy from 1939.
 For Ausrottung is reads:                                           
"Ausrottung, f. extirpation."                                             
                             Of course, the word extirpation is not very
friendly either.    The difficulty is that the word is somewhat ambiguous
in its rendering.  It CAN mean exactly what the exterminationists have
always claimed.  It can also be interpreted to mean what the revisionists
claim.  No one doubts that the Jews of Europe and many other innocent
people were "uprooted" and moved across the continent. What did this word
mean within the rhetoric of the Nazi leadership, Himmler in particular?  
I think that it is unfortunate that each side in this "debate" claim
victory over this one word.            
_________________________________________________________________________ 
   "Whatever is done from love always occurs beyond good and evil " ... 
Nietzsche         
________________________________________________________________________


From bzs@world.std.com Sat Jun 24 21:18:37 PDT 1995
Article: 22617 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: AUSROTTEN
In-Reply-To: donvh@aol.com's message of 24 Jun 1995 15:57:29 -0400
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References: 
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Date: Sat, 24 Jun 1995 23:17:45 GMT
Lines: 41


From: donvh@aol.com (DonVH)
>                             Of course, the word extirpation is not very
>friendly either.    The difficulty is that the word is somewhat ambiguous
>in its rendering.  It CAN mean exactly what the exterminationists have
>always claimed.  It can also be interpreted to mean what the revisionists
>claim.  No one doubts that the Jews of Europe and many other innocent
>people were "uprooted" and moved across the continent. What did this word
>mean within the rhetoric of the Nazi leadership, Himmler in particular?  
>I think that it is unfortunate that each side in this "debate" claim
>victory over this one word.            

Yes, well, all ambiguity was erased when the Nazis went ahead and
murdered several million people, as promised.

The idiotic thing about all this is that some here act as if there's
anything to seriously discuss with holocaust deniers. There isn't,
really. We just counter some of the more outrageous and fabricated
claims so they don't mislead the ignorant.

It's as if we found a note from OJ Simpson saying "I'm going to *get*
Nicole" and now we're arguing whether "get" might've meant "kill" or
not, surely ambiguous taken entirely out of context...BUT BY THE TIME
THERE ARE DEAD BODIES IT'S NOT REALLY THE ISSUE, IS IT?

"Apart from that I gave orders that all men should stand as far away
as possible from van during the gassings, so that their health would
not be damaged by any escaping gases. I would like to take this
opportunity to draw your attention to the following: Some of the
Kommandos are using their own men to unload the vans after the
gassing. I have made commanders of the Sonderkommandos in question
aware of the enormous psychological and physical damage this work can
do to the men, if not immediately then at a later stage."

	Dr August Becker on 16 May 1942 to SS-Obersturmbannfuherer Rauff

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


From uroessl1@gwdg.de Sat Jun 24 21:18:41 PDT 1995
Article: 22619 of alt.revisionism
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From: uroessl1@gwdg.de (Roessler  Ulrich)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What time is it, boys and girls? It's AUSROTTEN time!
Date: 25 Jun 1995 00:24:54 +0200
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greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) writes:

>In article <3sf0fr$kuc@agate.berkeley.edu>, schultz@garnet.berkeley.edu
>(Richard Schultz) wrote:

>> Now, if "ausrotten" simply means to "uproot", why does Ley go on to say
>> "Es is nicht genug, den Juden. . . auszugliedern" (It is not enough to
>> separate out the Jews)?

Why did you purge the quotation? It reads:

In message <3sf0fr$kuc@agate.berkeley.edu> - schultz@garnet.berkeley.edu
(Richard Schultz) writes:

:>In any case, the following quotation is from the indictment at the
:>International Military Tribunal (Nuremberg Trials).  This is from the
:>official German version (_Der Prozess gegen di Hauptkriegsverbrecher
:>vor dem Internationalen Militaergerichtshof:  Nuernberg, 14. November
:>1945 -- 1. Oktober 1946_, published in Nuernberg in 1947).  This
:>quotation comes from volume 1, page 36 (under "Anklagepunkt Eins. D.  Die
:>Erlangung Totalitaerer Kontrolle Ueber Deutschland:  Politisch).  The passage
:>is on volume 1, page 34 of the English version.
:>
:>      Der Angeklagte [Robert] Ley erklaerte:  `Wir schwoeren,
:>      wir werden den Kampf nicht aufgeben, bis der letzte Jude
:>      in Europa ausgerottet und wirklich tot ist.  Es ist nicht
:>      genug, den Juden, den Feind der Menschheit, auszugliedern --
:>      Der Jude muss vernichtet werden.'

Gord McFee's translation:

:[The accused [Robert] Ley explained: "We swear that we will not give up the
:fight until the last Jew is exterminated and really dead.  It is not enough
:to separate out the Jew, the enemy of Humanity--The Jew must be destroyed".]

>I don't speak German, but from what I understand,

Are you sure, you didn't misunderstand this?

>                                                      even Robert Wolfe
>(Formerly?) of the National Archives freely admits that "ausrotten" means
>"uproot."

Please, post quotation and reference.

Otherwise find a lexicographic definition or a printed example in German, 
not related to the usage in the Nazi documents discussed here, 
were "ausrotten" with respect to human beings is clearly used 
in the sense of "uproot", i.e. of (forced) resettlement, population transfer. 
As you apparently try to claim implicitely that this non-standard 
usage existed the burden of proof is yours to provide these examples. 

I'm not aware of any such example, moreover, the very semantic of 
"ausrotten", which means in any case "to destroy completely", doesn't 
yield the alleged usage. Actually, this was amply demonstrated here 
with examples and definitions from dictionaries in many threads, 
apparently you didn't notice this. The quotation above clearly
states that the Nazis did speak about extermination, physical destruction,
and killing when using the word "ausrotten". As far my knowledge of the
German language is concerned, I see no way a German speaker could 
misunderstand the word "ausrotten".

In case you cannot come up with such an example or quotation, 
and do not retract your insinuation, your "methodology" is once again
exposed as nonsensical propaganda, to put it mildly.

u.roessler                                            uroessl1@gwdg.de


From bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu Sun Jun 25 07:55:50 PDT 1995
Article: 22631 of alt.revisionism
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Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What time is it, boys and girls?  It's AUSROTTEN time!
Message-ID: <1995Jun25.003857.46971@miavx1>
From: bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu (Raskolnikov)
Date: 25 Jun 95 00:38:57 -0500
References: <3sf0fr$kuc@agate.berkeley.edu>
 
Organization: Miami University
Lines: 37

In article , greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) writes:
> In article <3sf0fr$kuc@agate.berkeley.edu>, schultz@garnet.berkeley.edu
> (Richard Schultz) wrote:
> 
>> Now, if "ausrotten" simply means to "uproot", why does Ley go on to say
>> "Es is nicht genug, den Juden. . . auszugliedern" (It is not enough to
>> separate out the Jews)?
> 
> I don't speak German, but from what I understand, even Robert Wolfe
> (Formerly?) of the National Archives freely admits that "ausrotten" means
> "uproot."

Well, that's all very nice, but can you tell us where you 
heard this?  We'd like to check up on it.  I find it odd
that every german speaker in this group does not agree with 
this interpretation.

Mr. Schultz went to all the trouble to provide a source
and a quotation.  All he have from you is a paraphrase
of someone who works or worked for the National Archives.

btw, does that mean Mr. Wolfe is a German linguist.

I remember a discussion of ausrotten once provoked one
of our (real) German scholars to go look the word up 
in several dictionaries.  What did s/he find?

Yes indeedy, ausrotten can mean "uproot," but only
when one is speaking of plants.  When talking of 
people, the meaning is much more ominous.  The "uproot"
meaning is also quite archaic, if i remember correctly.

Give me some time to scan through my files, and I'll 
see if i can dig up that part of the discussion.

Brian Harmon



From mstein@access2.digex.net Sun Jun 25 07:56:01 PDT 1995
Article: 22644 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bc.net!info.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!news1.digex.net!news3.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access2.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: AUSROTTEN
Supersedes: <3sjk9c$j58@access2.digex.net>
Date: 25 Jun 1995 08:30:27 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 64
Message-ID: <3sjkt3$je2@access2.digex.net>
References:  <3shqn9$ovb@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access2.digex.net

In article <3shqn9$ovb@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, DonVH  wrote:
>Mr. Raven mentions Robert Wolfe's interpretation of "ausrottung."  The
>following is excerpted from an article from the Associated Press.  It is
>entitled, "HIMMLER SPEECH SHOWN AT ARCHIVES"
                              
>"...  The German word Himmler uses that is
>translated as "exterminaton" is "Ausrottung."  Wolfe, the archivist
>expert, said a more precise translation would be "extirpation" or "tearing
>up by the roots."

    a) In the context of what Ley actually said, the supposedly more
       benign translation of "ausrotten" cannot be correct, because
       Ley specifically rejected an option which would have been covered
       by such a translation.  Thus Raven's citation of Wolfe is a
       red herring which in no way addresses the Ley quotation; what
       Wolfe said casts no doubt on what Ley said.

       In case you'd forgotten, Ley also clarified his statement with
       the phrase "wirklich tot" which means "really dead."  Of course, 
       the extremely myopic Mr. Raven somehow cut this out of his posting.

    b) To pull a plant up by the roots is to kill it, yes?  My Webster's
       goes on to say about the word "extirpate": "hence, to destroy
       totally, to exterminate, to abolish."  It does give "uproot"
       as a synonym, but it hardly looks like a synonym for "deport."

    c) Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Wolfe is a native
       German speaker.  Indeed, rather than Wolfe casting doubt on
       our understanding of Ley, my normal view of this kind of situation
       is just the opposite.  The usage of native speaker Ley, who was
       kind enough to state explicitly that when he said "ausrotten"
       he meant "really dead" rather than "deported," casts doubt
       on the statement of non-native speaker Wolfe.

    d) Since we know that Mr. Raven believes in presenting the BEST
       SINGLE PIECE OF EVIDENCE (TM), if the opinion of a non-native
       speaker (refuted by dictionaries and native speakers, including
       the example from Ley) is Raven's BEST EVIDENCE that "Ausrottung"
       does not mean "destruction, extermination" then we can safely
       conclude he really has nothing of value to offer on this point.


>                                  By the way, the return of the question
>of the use of this word, "Ausrottung" came when Mr. Roberts asked if it
>was the word meaning "extermination" used in the Wannsee Protocol.

    Your statement above is only half true.  Mr. Roberts was the
questioner, yes, but he asked about the word used in the diaries of Hans
Frank, not the Wannsee Protocol.  And the word used in the Frank diary
excerpt was "Vernichtung" ("alle Juden sind der Vernichtung anheim zu
stellen," to give the complete phrase, used during a discussion of the
difficulties caused by the loss of Jewish workers subimtted to this
"Vernichtung").  Cassell's defines "Vernichtung" as "destruction,
annihilation, extermination, eradication."  But I suppose you can give us
a kinder, gentler meaning for that one as well....

    Oh, and please don't forget to tell us how "really dead" does not 
_really_ mean "really dead."  This too is eagerly awaited....

    Posted/emailed to both DonVH and Greg Raven.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From gmcfee@ibm.net Sun Jun 25 13:36:12 PDT 1995
Article: 22655 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bc.net!info.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!newsjunkie.ans.net!news-m01.ny.us.ibm.net!usenet
From: gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What time is it, boys and girls?  It's AUSROTTEN time!
Date: 25 Jun 1995 18:53:17 GMT
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <3skbat$1h5u@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: slip165-185.on.ca.ibm.net
X-Newsreader: NetSuite News for OS/2 [version: 4.1 Beta]

In message  - 
greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) writes:
:>
:>In article <3sf0fr$kuc@agate.berkeley.edu>, schultz@garnet.berkeley.edu
:>(Richard Schultz) wrote:
:>
:>> Now, if "ausrotten" simply means to "uproot", why does Ley go on to say
:>> "Es is nicht genug, den Juden. . . auszugliedern" (It is not enough to
:>> separate out the Jews)?
:>
:>I don't speak German, but from what I understand, even Robert Wolfe
:>(Formerly?) of the National Archives freely admits that "ausrotten" means
:>"uproot."

It's obvious you don't speak German Greg, and we've been around this mulberry 
bush before.  To a German speaker, and BTW even Fritz Berg agreed with this, 
the word "ausrotten" can only mean "exterminate" when applied to living 
things.  But you know that already, and you know that I know you know that 
already.  "Ausrotten" can be translated as "uproot" when referring to plants 
or weeds.  Tell me Greg: what happens to a plant after you uproot it?  That's 
right--it dies.

Why did you omit the next sentence from Ley where he used the word 
"vernichten" (destroy, kill)?

What I find annoying about your post is the innocent way you try to pretend 
that this issue has not already been conclusively settled.  What I find 
equally annoying is your hit-and-run tactics; I suppose you're off somewhere 
now and will not reply to the posts that will show the inaccuracy of your 
post, but that's standard operating procedure, right Greg?



Gord McFee 

"I'll write no line before its time"




From greg.ihr@kaiwan.com Sun Jun 25 14:17:14 PDT 1995
Article: 22657 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bc.net!info.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!netline-fddi.jpl.nasa.gov!nntp-server.caltech.edu!news.claremont.edu!kaiwan.kaiwan.com!kaiwan091.kaiwan.com!user
From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,talk.politics.misc
Subject: Re: Engineer Says - NO HOLOCAUST * NO WAY * NO HOW !
Date: 25 Jun 1995 19:32:00 GMT
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 27
Distribution: world
Message-ID: 
References: <3qocgi$6gm@agate.berkeley.edu> <3qruaf$u3t@epaus.island.net> <3rd8bg$juo@ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <10JUN199519191539@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <3rulsi$bit@ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <3scfch$bt7@bird.summit.novell.com> <3sh6a1$98m@ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan091.kaiwan.com
Xref: news.port.island.net alt.revisionism:22657 talk.politics.misc:204351

In article <3sh6a1$98m@ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>, forman@ix.netcom.com (Frank
Forman) wrote:

> In <3scfch$bt7@bird.summit.novell.com> mattk@summit.novell.com (mattk)
> writes: 
>> So tell us, Frank, how many Jews do *you* think were gassed at
>> Auschwitz?
> 
> The anti-Revisionist arguments on alt.revisionism, plus the
> unwillingness or inability of Revisionists to respond, have persuaded
> me that homocidal gassings did take place at Auschwitz. I don't know
> how many, and I don't know what the range of estimates among
> Exterminationist historians are. And I am not going to spend a lifetime
> researching the matter and add my own estimate to the pile of existing
> estimates. But, if and when, the Revisionists make a counter-response,
> I certainly want to read it.

The correct answer is "zero." There are no gas chambers, no evidence of
gas chambers, poor-to-nonexistent evidence of gassings in non-gas
chambers, and the few "eyewitness" accounts there are either do not square
with the physical facts, or violate laws of physics.

-- 
Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
Or, come visit my home page at http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr
The Institute for Historical Review can be reached at:
P.O. Box 241556, Newport Beach, CA 92659


From kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca Sun Jun 25 14:22:47 PDT 1995
Article: 22658 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!not-for-mail
From: kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,talk.politics.misc
Subject: Re: Engineer Says - NO HOLOCAUST * NO WAY * NO HOW !
Date: 25 Jun 1995 14:21:30 -0700
Organization: The Nizkor Project
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <3skk0q$fn1@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
References: <3qocgi$6gm@agate.berkeley.edu> <3scfch$bt7@bird.summit.novell.com> <3sh6a1$98m@ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.60.231.126
Xref: news.port.island.net alt.revisionism:22658 talk.politics.misc:204356

In article ,
Greg Raven  wrote:

>In article <3sh6a1$98m@ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>, forman@ix.netcom.com (Frank
>Forman) wrote:

>> The anti-Revisionist arguments on alt.revisionism, plus the
>> unwillingness or inability of Revisionists to respond, have persuaded
>> me that homocidal gassings did take place at Auschwitz. I don't know
>> how many, and I don't know what the range of estimates among
>> Exterminationist historians are. And I am not going to spend a lifetime
>> researching the matter and add my own estimate to the pile of existing
>> estimates. But, if and when, the Revisionists make a counter-response,
>> I certainly want to read it.

>The correct answer is "zero." There are no gas chambers, no evidence of
>gas chambers, poor-to-nonexistent evidence of gassings in non-gas
>chambers, and the few "eyewitness" accounts there are either do not square
>with the physical facts, or violate laws of physics.

And your, er, single best evidence for this is ...?

By the way, Mr. Raven, I understand you have yet to provide links
>from  the ihr web site to those which hold contrary views. That is,
of course, interesting in light of the fact that many of the
"anti-revisionist" sites, including Nizkor, provide links to the ihr
site.

Whatever are you afraid of, Mr. Raven?

P.S. When is Fritz Berg going to return to the net? (Or has he
simply lost his taste for being humiliated?)

-- 
     The Nizkor Project: An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
                   Anonymous ftp: ftp.almanac.bc.ca
 Nizkor Web: http://www.almanac.bc.ca (Under construction - permanently!)
    Kenneth McVay OBC.  Home Page: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/~kmcvay


From dkeren@world.std.com Sun Jun 25 16:34:51 PDT 1995
Article: 22660 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,talk.politics.misc
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bc.net!info.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!europa.chnt.gtegsc.com!hookup!news.kei.com!world!dkeren
From: dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
Subject: Re: Engineer Says - NO HOLOCAUST * NO WAY * NO HOW !
Message-ID: 
Organization: The World, Public Access Internet, Brookline, MA
References: <3qocgi$6gm@agate.berkeley.edu> <3scfch$bt7@bird.summit.novell.com> <3sh6a1$98m@ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> 
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 1995 20:31:22 GMT
Lines: 74
Xref: news.port.island.net alt.revisionism:22660 talk.politics.misc:204361

greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) writes:

Greg Raven, "Holocaust revisionist", who has already expressed
his great admiration for Adolf Hitler, calling him a "great man"
and "the greatest leader of the 20th century", writes:

# There are no gas chambers, no evidence of
# gas chambers, poor-to-nonexistent evidence of gassings in non-gas
# chambers, and the few "eyewitness" accounts there are either do not 
# square with the physical facts, or violate laws of physics.

This is truly incredible, he's still posting the same old nonsense,
after all these years, like nothing has changed. He just has this
piece of text that he captures with the old mouse and plugs it in.

Take the last sentence about "violating the laws of physics". 

Ok, perhaps our Hitler admirer here can tell us what about the
following testimonies "violates the laws of physics":



ÿ
SS-Doctor Kremer about his days at Auschwitz: 
[Quoted in 'The Good Old Days' - E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The 
Free Press, NY, 1988, p. 258].
-------------------------------------------------------------------
I remember I once took part in the gassing of one of these groups
of women [from the women's camp in Auschwitz]. I cannot say how
big the group was. when I got close to the bunker I saw them
sitting on the ground. They were still clothed. As they were
wearing worn-out camp clothing they were not left in the undressing
hut but made to undress in the open air. I concluded from the
behavior of these women that they had no doubt what fate awaited
them, as they begged and sobbed to the SS men to spare them their
lives. However, they were herded into the gas chambers and gassed.
As an anatomist I have seen a lot of terrible things: I had had
a lot of experience with dead bodies, and yet what I saw that
day was like nothing I had ever seen before. Still completely
shocked by what I had seen I wrote on my diary on 5 September 
1942: "The most dreadful of horrors. Hauptscharfuehrer Thilo was
right when he said to me today that this is the 'anus mundi', the
anal orifice of the world". I used this image because I could not
imagine anything more disgusting and horrific.





Testimony of SS-Unterscharfuehrer Pery Broad, describing gassing in
Krema I in Auschwitz
[Quoted in "KL Auschwitz as Seen by the SS", p. 176]
-------------------------------------------------------------
 ... The "disinfectors" were at work. One of them was SS-Unterscharfuehrer
Teuer, decorated with the Cross of War Merit. With a chisel and a
hammer they opened a few innocuously looking tins which bore the
inscription "Cyclon, to be used against vermin. Attention, poison!
to be opened by trained personnel only!". The tins were filled to
the brim with blue granules the size of peas. Immediately after
opening the tins, their contents was thrown into the holes which
were then quickly covered. Meanwhile Grabner gave a sign to the driver
of a lorry, which had stopped close to the crematorium. The driver
started the motor and its deafening noise was louder than the
death cries of the hundreds of people inside, being gassed to death.





Tell us, "revisionist scholar", what is impossible about these
testimonies. Just these two.


-Danny Keren.


From bzs@world.std.com Sun Jun 25 16:34:55 PDT 1995
Article: 22661 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,talk.politics.misc
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bc.net!info.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!simtel!news.kei.com!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!world!bzs
From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Engineer Says - NO HOLOCAUST * NO WAY * NO HOW !
In-Reply-To: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com's message of 25 Jun 1995 19:32:00 GMT
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References: <3qocgi$6gm@agate.berkeley.edu> <3qruaf$u3t@epaus.island.net>
	<3rd8bg$juo@ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>
	<10JUN199519191539@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
	<3rulsi$bit@ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <3scfch$bt7@bird.summit.novell.com>
	<3sh6a1$98m@ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>
	
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 1995 21:33:57 GMT
Lines: 74
Xref: news.port.island.net alt.revisionism:22661 talk.politics.misc:204372


From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
>The correct answer is "zero." There are no gas chambers, no evidence of
>gas chambers, poor-to-nonexistent evidence of gassings in non-gas
>chambers, and the few "eyewitness" accounts there are either do not square
>with the physical facts, or violate laws of physics.

And once again Mr Raven's mental illness leaks out of his head and all
over usenet.

Fortunately there are lots of dead Nazi officers happy to argue with
Mr Raven from their graves:


"Apart from that I gave orders that all men should stand as far away
as possible from van during the gassings, so that their health would
not be damaged by any escaping gases. I would like to take this
opportunity to draw your attention to the following: Some of the
Kommandos are using their own men to unload the vans after the
gassing. I have made commanders of the Sonderkommandos in question
aware of the enormous psychological and physical damage this work can
do to the men, if not immediately then at a later stage."

	Dr August Becker on 16 May 1942 to SS-Obersturmbannfuherer Rauff

During my visit to Kumhof I also saw the extermination installation,
with the lorry which had been set up for killing by means of motor
exhaust fumes. The head of the Kommando told me that this method,
however, was very unreliable, as the gas build-up was very irregular
and was often insufficient for killing.

	Rudolf Hoss, Commandant of Auschwitz, on a visit to Chelmno
	on 16 September 1942

  "..the unfit go to cellars in a large house which are entered
   from outside.  They go down five or six steps into a fairly long, 
   well-constructed and well-ventilated cellar area, which is lined 
   with benches to the left and right. It is brightly lit, and 
   the benches are numbered.  The prisoners are told that they are to 
   be cleansed and disinfected for their new assignments.  They must therefore 
   completely undress to be bathed. To avoid panic and to prevent
   disturbances of any kind, they are instructed to arrange their
   clothing neatly under their respective numbers, so that they will
   be able to find their things again after their bath.  Everything
   proceeds in a perfectly orderly fashion.  Then they pass through 
   a small corridor and enter a large cellar room which resembles a
   shower bath.  In this room are three large pillars, into which
   certain materials can be lowered from outside the cellar room.
   When three- to four-hundred people have been herded into this room,
   the doors are shut, and containers filled with the substances are
   dropped down into the pillars.  As soon as the containers touch 
   the base of the pillars, they release particular substances that put
   the people to sleep in one minute. A few minutes later, the door opens
   on the other side, where the elevator is located. . . . Then
   the corpses are loaded into elevators and brought up to the first
   floor, where ten large crematoria are located. (Because fresh
   corpses burn particularly well, only 50-100 lbs. of coke are needed
   for the whole process.)  The job itself is performed by Jewish
   prisoners, who never step outside this camp again.
      The results of this `resettlement action' to date: 500,000 Jews
   Current capacity of the `resettlement action' ovens: 10,000
   in twenty-four hours."
                  --from report entitled "Resettlement of Jews"
                    written by SS-Sturmbannfuehrer Alfred Franke-Gricksch
                    for SS-Col. M. von Herff and RF-SS H. Himmler, after
                    inspection of Auschwitz camp on 14-16 May 1943.  This
                    excerpt from "Hitler and the Final Solution" by
                    Gerald Fleming, ISBN 0-520-05103-3.

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


From schultz@garnet.berkeley.edu Sun Jun 25 19:59:46 PDT 1995
Article: 22663 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bc.net!news.mindlink.net!agate!garnet.berkeley.edu!schultz
From: schultz@garnet.berkeley.edu (Richard Schultz)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What time is it, boys and girls?  It's AUSROTTEN time!
Date: 25 Jun 1995 23:05:24 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <3skq3k$r0a@agate.berkeley.edu>
References: <3sf0fr$kuc@agate.berkeley.edu> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: garnet.berkeley.edu

In article ,
Greg Raven  wrote:
>In article <3sf0fr$kuc@agate.berkeley.edu>, schultz@garnet.berkeley.edu
>(Richard Schultz) wrote:

>> Now, if "ausrotten" simply means to "uproot", why does Ley go on to say
>> "Es is nicht genug, den Juden. . . auszugliedern" (It is not enough to
>> separate out the Jews)?

>I don't speak German, but from what I understand, even Robert Wolfe
>(Formerly?) of the National Archives freely admits that "ausrotten" means
>"uproot."


Let me repeat my question, since you appear to have missed it the first 
time.  If "ausrotten" means "uproot," why does Ley specifically add that
"Es is nicht genug, den Juden. . . auszugliedern"?  
--
					Richard Schultz

"It is terrible to die of thirst in the ocean.  Do you have to salt your
truth so heavily that it does not even quench thirst any more?"


From greg.ihr@kaiwan.com Sun Jun 25 19:59:48 PDT 1995
Article: 22664 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bc.net!info.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!europa.chnt.gtegsc.com!hookup!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!netline-fddi.jpl.nasa.gov!nntp-server.caltech.edu!news.claremont.edu!kaiwan.kaiwan.com!kaiwan097.kaiwan.com!user
From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: IHR leadership/financial woes
Date: 25 Jun 1995 23:19:27 GMT
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 16
Message-ID: 
References: <3sc71i$k9r@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan097.kaiwan.com

In article <3sc71i$k9r@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>, kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca
(Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

> Rumour has it that our friend Fritz Berg is cracking the whip at the
> IHR, and trying to rid them of a few stalwart "revisionist
> scholars." Is this correct, Mr. Raven? Is Berg now running the IHR?
> ("No antisemites here, nosirreebob!")

Your rumors are as accurate as your other information. Fritz Berg has
nothing to do with the running of the IHR, period.

-- 
Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
Or, come visit my home page at http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr
The Institute for Historical Review can be reached at:
P.O. Box 241556, Newport Beach, CA 92659


From greg.ihr@kaiwan.com Sun Jun 25 19:59:50 PDT 1995
Article: 22665 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bc.net!info.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!usc!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!netline-fddi.jpl.nasa.gov!nntp-server.caltech.edu!news.claremont.edu!kaiwan.kaiwan.com!kaiwan097.kaiwan.com!user
From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: HOESS STATEMENT "edited"  AT NIZOR?
Date: 25 Jun 1995 23:25:51 GMT
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 47
Message-ID: 
References: <3sf5kj$sj3@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <3shjrq$fae@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan097.kaiwan.com

In article <3shjrq$fae@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>, gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord
McFee) wrote:
> In message <3sf5kj$sj3@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> - kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca 
> (Ken McVay OBC) writes:
> :>
> :>In article <148686862wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>,
> :>Jeff Roberts   wrote:
> :>>The Hoess Statement (German & English) [from the Nizor/rememberance 
> :>>resource]     
> :> (snip)
> :>>    6. The "final solution" of the Jewish question meant the
> :>> complete extermination of all Jews in Europe. I had the order to
> :>> produce extermination facilities in Auschwitz in June 1942. At
> :>> that time three further annihilation camps already existed in
> :>> the general government: Belzec, Treblinka and Wolzek. These camps
> :>> found themselves under the mission command of the security
> :>> police and the SD.....
> :> 
> :>>>From "Der Kommandant von Auschwitz erzaehlt," in _Das Dritte
> :>> Reich und die Juden_, edited by Leon Poliakov and Josef Wulf.
> :>> Berlin Grunewald, Verlag-GmbH, 1955.
> :>
> :>>However, it should read June 1941. 
> :>
> :>>So was it just a typo, or does the source say 1942 as well?
> :> (snip)
> Hoess received the posting to Auschwitz on May 4, 1940 from Gluecks (Le 
> Commandant d'Auschwitz parle, page 130 [French edition of "Der Kommandant von 
> Auschwitz erzaehlt", petite collection maspero, Paris, 1979].  The purpose of 
> the camp at that time was to serve as a concentration camp (Schutzhaftlager).

You are swallow camels and straining at gnats, as they say. Virtually
everything that Hoess has to say about this matter is suspect, as these
statements are the result of torture. While you worry about whether Hoess
was correct about the year, you have overlooked the fact that there is no
"Wolzek" camp and there never was.

Hoess' statements have long been "corrected" by anti-revisionists eager to
have some kind of utterance from a Nazi officer that the Holocaust
extermination stories are believable. Even Christopher Browning and
Deborah Lipstadt have abandoned Hoess. You would do well to emulate them.

-- 
Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
Or, come visit my home page at http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr
The Institute for Historical Review can be reached at:
P.O. Box 241556, Newport Beach, CA 92659


From kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca Sun Jun 25 20:20:03 PDT 1995
Article: 22668 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!not-for-mail
From: kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: HOESS STATEMENT "edited"  AT NIZOR?
Date: 25 Jun 1995 20:18:11 -0700
Organization: The Nizkor Project
Lines: 43
Message-ID: <3sl8tj$hch@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
References: <3sf5kj$sj3@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <3shjrq$fae@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.60.231.126

In article ,
Greg Raven  wrote:

>Hoess' statements have long been "corrected" by anti-revisionists eager to
>have some kind of utterance from a Nazi officer that the Holocaust
>extermination stories are believable. Even Christopher Browning and
>Deborah Lipstadt have abandoned Hoess. You would do well to emulate them.

Mr. Raven, you're full of sh*t, as you very well know. Neither
Browning nor Lipstadt has "abandoned" Hoess.

There was once a time when I thought you might be a cut above the
likes of Mssrs. Gannon et al., but I see I was wrong, and you
conform to the standard pattern of Holocaust denial here on the net.

You make an assertion, misrepresent a fact, deliberately lie about
what some scholar has said.

Your lies and misrepresentations are exposed for just what they are.

You change the subject.

Months pass.

You return to the same tired old lies, hoping perhaps that a new
crop of users won't know how deceitful you are.

In short, Mr. Raven, you're just another lying putz, trying to milk
Holocaust denial for all it's worth, and offering absolutely nothing
of substance to anyone.

I repeat, Mr. Raven: You are a liar - a _proven_, documented liar.

(Go ahead, Mr. Raven - bring out your tired old lie about Hoess -
DOCUMENT it, so we can repost the undeniable refutation of your
bullshit.)


-- 
     The Nizkor Project: An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
                   Anonymous ftp: ftp.almanac.bc.ca
 Nizkor Web: http://www.almanac.bc.ca (Under construction - permanently!)
    Kenneth McVay OBC.  Home Page: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/~kmcvay


From bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu Mon Jun 26 10:39:35 PDT 1995
Article: 22682 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bc.net!info.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu!miavx1!bpharmon
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,talk.politics.misc
Subject: Re: Engineer Says - NO HOLOCAUST * NO WAY * NO HOW !
Message-ID: <1995Jun26.023902.47022@miavx1>
From: bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu (Raskolnikov)
Date: 26 Jun 95 02:39:02 -0500
References: <3qocgi$6gm@agate.berkeley.edu> <3qruaf$u3t@epaus.island.net> 
 
Distribution: world
Organization: Miami University
Lines: 68
Xref: news.port.island.net alt.revisionism:22682 talk.politics.misc:204547

In article , greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) writes:
> In article <3sh6a1$98m@ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>, forman@ix.netcom.com (Frank
> Forman) wrote:
> 
>> In <3scfch$bt7@bird.summit.novell.com> mattk@summit.novell.com (mattk)
>> writes: 
>>> So tell us, Frank, how many Jews do *you* think were gassed at
>>> Auschwitz?
>> 
>> The anti-Revisionist arguments on alt.revisionism, plus the
>> unwillingness or inability of Revisionists to respond, have persuaded
>> me that homocidal gassings did take place at Auschwitz. I don't know
>> how many, and I don't know what the range of estimates among
>> Exterminationist historians are. And I am not going to spend a lifetime
>> researching the matter and add my own estimate to the pile of existing
>> estimates. But, if and when, the Revisionists make a counter-response,
>> I certainly want to read it.
> 
> The correct answer is "zero." There are no gas chambers, no evidence of
> gas chambers, poor-to-nonexistent evidence of gassings in non-gas
> chambers, and the few "eyewitness" accounts there are either do not square
> with the physical facts, or violate laws of physics.

You never learn, do you?

You made a similar claim over a year ago when you first
hit the net.  A list of thirty-five volumes of documents,
eyewitness accounts, etc. was promptly posted to the net. 

What was your response?

Ohh that's way to many, why don't you provide me with
"The single best piece of evidence for the Holocaust?"

In essence, you wanted a single document that proved
both a nazi extermination policy and that it was 
carried out in gas chambers.

That was two things.

Rising to the challenge, a number of us put together a 
short list of ten primary _documents_ that we felt
was sufficient to prove both points.

Your response?   

You refused to respond to these ten documents. Instead,
you claimed never to have seen them.  This went on for 
many months.  As far as I can remember, you made a 
halfhearted attempt to dismiss Himmler's Ponzan speech.

The only time anyone did offer a single such document
was Barry Shein's proposal of the Franke-Grickisch
report.  You took one look at it and called it a 
forgery.

And around and around again and again. 

You then disappeared once again.

Now you re-appear and repeat the same line, completely
ignoring all of the evidence painstakingly compiled 
for your benefit.

I daresay that your techniques are exceedingly transparent.

Brian Harmon



From hmazal@aol.com Mon Jun 26 10:39:37 PDT 1995
Article: 22683 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bc.net!unixg.ubc.ca!info.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!europa.chnt.gtegsc.com!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.megaweb.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: hmazal@aol.com (HMazal)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What time is it, boys and girls?  It's AUSROTTEN time!
Date: 26 Jun 1995 03:30:23 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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References: 
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Mr. Raven rises anew and comments:

>I don't speak German,...

obviously

> but from what I understand, even Robert Wolfe (Formerly?) of the
National >Archives freely admits that "ausrotten" means "uproot."

"AUSROTTEN 'vt sep' to wipe out; 'Volk auch, Ungeziefer' to exterminate;
Religion, 'Ideen auch' to stamp out."

"AUSROTTUNG 'f siehe vt' wiping out; extermination; stamping out.

All one needs to know is how to put words into the context of the facts.




Harry W. Mazal in San Antonio, Texas


From hmazal@aol.com Mon Jun 26 10:39:39 PDT 1995
Article: 22685 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bc.net!info.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.megaweb.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: hmazal@aol.com (HMazal)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: IHR leadership/financial woes
Date: 26 Jun 1995 03:31:28 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 14
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
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References: 
Reply-To: hmazal@aol.com (HMazal)
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com

Mr. Raven jumps to the defense of the IHR and says, of Carto's latest
venture:

>(text deleted)one of the reasons why The Barnes Review has such a high
>circulation is that Carto gave away thousands of free subscriptions.
(text >deleted.)

Is this not the same technique that Mr.  Bradley Smith used to get his
video into circulation...   .giving it away?



 
Harry W. Mazal in San Antonio, Texas


From hedgesa@silver.ucs.indiana.edu Mon Jun 26 10:39:44 PDT 1995
Article: 22691 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bc.net!info.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!europa.chnt.gtegsc.com!gatech!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!news.kei.com!babbage.ece.uc.edu!news.cs.indiana.edu!usenet.ucs.indiana.edu!silver.ucs.indiana.edu!hedgesa
From: hedgesa@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (andrew larry hedges)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What time is it, boys and girls?  It's AUSROTTEN time!
Date: 26 Jun 1995 04:37:34 GMT
Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <3sldie$n6e@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>
References: <3sf0fr$kuc@agate.berkeley.edu>  <3skq3k$r0a@agate.berkeley.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: silver.ucs.indiana.edu

In article <3skq3k$r0a@agate.berkeley.edu>,
Richard Schultz  wrote:
>In article ,
>Greg Raven  wrote:
>>In article <3sf0fr$kuc@agate.berkeley.edu>, schultz@garnet.berkeley.edu
>>(Richard Schultz) wrote:
>
>>> Now, if "ausrotten" simply means to "uproot", why does Ley go on to say
>>> "Es is nicht genug, den Juden. . . auszugliedern" (It is not enough to
>>> separate out the Jews)?
>
>>I don't speak German, but from what I understand, even Robert Wolfe
>>(Formerly?) of the National Archives freely admits that "ausrotten" means
>>"uproot."
>
>
>Let me repeat my question, since you appear to have missed it the first 
>time.  If "ausrotten" means "uproot," why does Ley specifically add that
>"Es is nicht genug, den Juden. . . auszugliedern"?  
>--
>					Richard Schultz
>
>"It is terrible to die of thirst in the ocean.  Do you have to salt your
>truth so heavily that it does not even quench thirst any more?"

"Ausrotten" means to exterminate or eliminate.  Ask any native speaker
or look it up in a German-German dictionary.  
 
"Ausroden" means to uproot -- in the sense that you dig a tree up by the
roots to transplant it.  Maybe this has caused some confusion;  I don't
know.
 
There's also an expression "Das Uebel mit der Wurzel ausrotten," which
means, basically, "to get rid of a bad thing [Uebel=bad thing] down to
the root," i.e., to completely eliminate something so it can't cme back.
This has "root" in it (root being Wurzel, of course), but doesn't mean
"uproot," except in the sense of making sure something is really dead
and gone.

--andy


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Mon Jun 26 21:31:41 PDT 1995
Article: 22718 of alt.revisionism
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: HOESS STATEMENT "edited"  AT NIZOR?
Date: 25 Jun 1995 22:06 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 76
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <25JUN199522064891@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <3sf5kj$sj3@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <3shjrq$fae@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article , greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) writes...
>> :>>The Hoess Statement (German & English) [from the Nizor/rememberance 
>> :>>resource]     
>> :> (snip)
>> :>>    6. The "final solution" of the Jewish question meant the
>> :>> complete extermination of all Jews in Europe. I had the order to
>> :>> produce extermination facilities in Auschwitz in June 1942. At
>> :>> that time three further annihilation camps already existed in
>> :>> the general government: Belzec, Treblinka and Wolzek. These camps
>> :>> found themselves under the mission command of the security
>> :>> police and the SD.....
>> :> 
>> :>>>From "Der Kommandant von Auschwitz erzaehlt," in _Das Dritte
>> :>> Reich und die Juden_, edited by Leon Poliakov and Josef Wulf.
>> :>> Berlin Grunewald, Verlag-GmbH, 1955.
>> :>
>> :>>However, it should read June 1941. 
>> :>
>> :>>So was it just a typo, or does the source say 1942 as well?
>> :> (snip)
>> Hoess received the posting to Auschwitz on May 4, 1940 from Gluecks (Le 
>> Commandant d'Auschwitz parle, page 130 [French edition of "Der Kommandant von 
>> Auschwitz erzaehlt", petite collection maspero, Paris, 1979].  The purpose of 
>> the camp at that time was to serve as a concentration camp (Schutzhaftlager).
> 
>You are swallow camels and straining at gnats, as they say. Virtually
>everything that Hoess has to say about this matter is suspect, as these
>statements are the result of torture. While you worry about whether Hoess
>was correct about the year, you have overlooked the fact that there is no
>"Wolzek" camp and there never was.

    Greg, I remember reading this discussion the last time it came up in
    a.r.  I recal that you (and others) made similar suggestions of
    torture.  You were asked to provide evidence or a logic stream to
    support this contention.  Some evidence was provided which *might*
    suggest that Hoess's testimony could be tainted by toture (I say
    *might* as it was not clear either way.)  Discussents then pointed out
    that even if Hoess's trial testimony was tainted, that such testimony
    was independent in time from his memiors.  They pointed out that there
    was no evidence presented supporting a conclusion that his memiors were
    tainted.  I don't recall you effectively addressing these points last
    time they came up.  Why are you starting the discussion from the
    beginning this time rather than addressing previous questions put to
    you and jumping right back into the middle of the discussion?

    By the way, if Hoess was tortured and coerced to provide planted
    evidence, then why did his torturers force upon him the name of a
    nonexistent camp?  Seems that people planting a story would get the
    basic facts right.  Seems to me that it is more likely someone under
    stress and away from their working notes might more likely mistake that
    name of a camp.

>Hoess' statements have long been "corrected" by anti-revisionists eager to
>have some kind of utterance from a Nazi officer that the Holocaust
>extermination stories are believable. Even Christopher Browning and
>Deborah Lipstadt have abandoned Hoess. You would do well to emulate them.

    My recollection is that Lipstadt's comments on Hoess were discussed
    previously (I don't recall Browning.)  You made this same charge about
    Lipstadt before.  Other posters then contributed the complete quote
    from Lipstadt's book showing that she did not "abandon" the testimony
    of Hoess; rather she said that he was not a good source for a
    particular fact: the number of people who died as Auschwitz.  As you
    have participated in these discussion you must know this.  Why do you
    persist in contributing information to a.r that has previously been
    shown to be incorrect?  Aren't you after the truth here?

    Which reminds me, why have you not provided links to Jamie
    McCarthy's and Ken McVay's www pages from your page.  They have
    provided links to your page.  Are you or are you not in favor of open
    and honest communication in search of the truth?

===========================================================================
daniel david mittleman     -     danny@arizona.edu     -     (520) 621-2932

       "I can't complain, but sometimes I still do..."  -- Joe Walsh


From gmcfee@ibm.net Tue Jun 27 00:10:29 PDT 1995
Article: 22724 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bc.net!info.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!nic-nac.CSU.net!usc!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!newsjunkie.ans.net!news-m01.ny.us.ibm.net!usenet
From: gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: HOESS STATEMENT "edited"  AT NIZOR?
Date: 26 Jun 1995 20:15:49 GMT
Lines: 69
Message-ID: <3sn4hl$3hi9@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: slip165-168.on.ca.ibm.net
X-Newsreader: NetSuite News for OS/2 [version: 4.1 Beta]

In message  - greg.ihr@kaiwan.c
om (Greg Raven) writes:
:>
:>In article <3shjrq$fae@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>, gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord
:>McFee) wrote:
:>> In message <3sf5kj$sj3@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> - kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca 
:>> (Ken McVay OBC) writes:
:>> :>
:>> :>In article <148686862wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>,
:>> :>Jeff Roberts   wrote:
:>> :>>The Hoess Statement (German & English) [from the Nizor/rememberance 
:>> :>>resource]     
:>> :> (snip)
:>> :>>    6. The "final solution" of the Jewish question meant the
:>> :>> complete extermination of all Jews in Europe. I had the order to
:>> :>> produce extermination facilities in Auschwitz in June 1942. At
:>> :>> that time three further annihilation camps already existed in
:>> :>> the general government: Belzec, Treblinka and Wolzek. These camps
:>> :>> found themselves under the mission command of the security
:>> :>> police and the SD.....
:>> :> 
:>> :>>>From "Der Kommandant von Auschwitz erzaehlt," in _Das Dritte
:>> :>> Reich und die Juden_, edited by Leon Poliakov and Josef Wulf.
:>> :>> Berlin Grunewald, Verlag-GmbH, 1955.
:>> :>
:>> :>>However, it should read June 1941. 
:>> :>
:>> :>>So was it just a typo, or does the source say 1942 as well?
:>> :> (snip)
:>> Hoess received the posting to Auschwitz on May 4, 1940 from Gluecks (Le 
:>> Commandant d'Auschwitz parle, page 130 [French edition of "Der Kommandant von 
:>> Auschwitz erzaehlt", petite collection maspero, Paris, 1979].  The purpose of 
:>> the camp at that time was to serve as a concentration camp (Schutzhaftlager).
:>
:>You are swallow camels and straining at gnats, as they say. Virtually
:>everything that Hoess has to say about this matter is suspect, as these
:>statements are the result of torture. While you worry about whether Hoess
:>was correct about the year, you have overlooked the fact that there is no
:>"Wolzek" camp and there never was.

Nice try Greg, but you fool no one.  Hoess is certainly believable since many 
of his staements are independently verifiable.  Eichmann for example 
corroborates much of what Hoess says, differing only on the degree of his 
personal responsibility.  The descriptions Hoess gives of the gassing 
methodology have been confirmed by both Jewish survivors and German 
participants.  The chain of events he describes is also independently 
verifiable.  BTW, I have not overlooked the Wolzek camp item, as I am aware 
of the fact that it is almost certainly a transliteration mistake, where in 
fact, Belzec was likely intended.

:>
:>Hoess' statements have long been "corrected" by anti-revisionists eager to
:>have some kind of utterance from a Nazi officer that the Holocaust
:>extermination stories are believable. Even Christopher Browning and
:>Deborah Lipstadt have abandoned Hoess. You would do well to emulate them.

I assume you would claim that Robert Ley's verbatim testimony has also been 
"corrected"?  Eichmann's interrogation?  His testimony at his trial?  
Goebbels' diaries?  Goering's "Endloesung" decree?  Hitler's public 
utterances and table talk?  Himmler's _taped_ speech at Posen?  Give it up, 
Greg, you look more silly with each statement you make.



Gord McFee 

"I'll write no line before its time"




From kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca Tue Jun 27 00:31:48 PDT 1995
Article: 22732 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!not-for-mail
From: kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Raven's contempt for the net's users
Date: 27 Jun 1995 00:29:40 -0700
Organization: The Nizkor Project
Lines: 63
Message-ID: <3soc14$q0c@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
References:  <3sn4hl$3hi9@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.60.231.126

In article <3sn4hl$3hi9@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>,
Gord McFee  comments on Greg "I'm only in it for the
money" Raven's reassertion that...

"Even Christopher Browning and Deborah Lipstadt have abandoned 
Hoess. You would do well to emulate them."

>I assume you would claim that Robert Ley's verbatim testimony has also been 
>"corrected"?  Eichmann's interrogation?  His testimony at his trial?  
>Goebbels' diaries?  Goering's "Endloesung" decree?  Hitler's public 
>utterances and table talk?  Himmler's _taped_ speech at Posen?  Give it up, 
>Greg, you look more silly with each statement you make.

The amusing thing to note here is that Mr. "Hitler was a swell guy"
Raven made an identical claim in April of 1994, and that his claim
was shown to be a blatant lie.

Like Dan Gannon, and others before him, Mr. Raven brings to UseNet
the neonazi contempt for the intelligence of the general UseNet
readership.

Like Dan Gannon, Mr. Raven makes claims. 

Those claims are shown to be complete bullshit - fabrications,
misrepresentations, outright lies.

Like Dan Gannon, Mr. Raven backs off, refusing to discuss the matter
further... after all, the evidence was so clearly against him, and
so clearly exposed him for the liar that he is, that there was
nothing more to say.

Like Dan Gannon, Mr. Raven waits, perhaps until he has convinced
himself that it is time to recycle the same tired old lie once
again, in the hope that a new group of users, unfamiliar with the
facts of the matter, will swallow his crap.

In this case, Mr. Raven waited a full 15 months before repeating the
lie.

Alas, Mr. Raven's lie is as simple to expose now as it was then..
easier, actually, since the homework has been done, the facts are
in, and there is little to do but to restate the facts.

That, however, would spoil the fun. First, it would be amusing to
demand that Mr. Raven produce his documentation, his "single best
evidence," to coin a phrase from the "revisionist scholar's
handbook," written by nonother than our Hitler-admiring friend Mr.
Raven.

After Mr. Raven produces his documentation, others will produce the
clearly documented proof that Mr. Raven is, once again, nothing more
or less than a blatant liar.

Then Mr. Raven will abandon the issue for another 15 months...
before raising it yet again as a "great revisionist truth."

No wonder the IHR's in trouble. 

-- 
     The Nizkor Project: An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
                   Anonymous ftp: ftp.almanac.bc.ca
 Nizkor Web: http://www.almanac.bc.ca (Under construction - permanently!)
    Kenneth McVay OBC.  Home Page: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/~kmcvay


From herp@wildsau.idv.uni-linz.ac.at Tue Jun 27 00:47:24 PDT 1995
Article: 22735 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bc.net!unixg.ubc.ca!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!psgrain!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!Germany.EU.net!EU.net!Austria.EU.net!newsfeed.ACO.net!alijku06!wildsau.idv.uni-linz.ac.at!herp
From: herp@wildsau.idv.uni-linz.ac.at (Herbert Rosmanith)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What time is it, boys and girls?  It's AUSROTTEN time!
Date: 26 Jun 1995 21:15:55 GMT
Organization: Johannes Kepler University Linz
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Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com) wrote:

: I don't speak German, but from what I understand, even Robert Wolfe
: (Formerly?) of the National Archives freely admits that "ausrotten" means
: "uproot."

  allthough the word "uproot" is somehow familiar (phonetically)
  to "ausrotten", it is not at all the same.

  ausrotten: extirpate, exterminate
  uproot: entwurzeln = uproot, herausreissen = to tear or pull out

  the word "ausrotten" is never used in conjunction with plants.
  "ausrotten" has a very violent (emotional), negative meaning, why would one 
  be violent to plants ? (except a lunatic :->)
  ("die tulpen ausrotten" - to exterminate the tulips ? sounds quite strange
   in german!)
  the meaning of "ausrotten" is very clear and not ambiguos!

  looks like the national archives should get themselves a better
  translator ...

  (btw, yes, my mother tongue is german)

--
-------------------------------------------------------------
herp@wildsau.idv.uni-linz.ac.at  | Fighting for peace is like
Rosmanith@Edvz.uni-linz.ac.at    | fucking for virginity


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Jun 28 15:55:14 PDT 1995
Article: 22838 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bc.net!unixg.ubc.ca!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!psgrain!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news1.digex.net!news3.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: HOESS STATEMENT "edited"  AT NIZOR?
Date: 27 Jun 1995 17:56:06 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 52
Message-ID: <3spupm$djr@access5.digex.net>
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In article ,
Greg Raven  wrote:
>You are swallow camels and straining at gnats, as they say. Virtually
>everything that Hoess has to say about this matter is suspect, as these
>statements are the result of torture.

    Greg Raven has never once given a shred of evidence for this claim.


>While you worry about whether Hoess
>was correct about the year, you have overlooked the fact that there is no
>"Wolzek" camp and there never was.

    Mr. Roberts has not overlooked it.  He has made quite a big thing of
it, in fact.  However, both he and Mr. Raven both managed to overlook the
fact that Danny Keren heard the same thing the first time he heard former
SS guard Franz Suchomel pronounce "Belzec" - a Polish proper name
pronounced by a German as transcribed by someone who was not familiar with
either language.  Hmmm....


>Hoess' statements have long been "corrected" by anti-revisionists eager to
>have some kind of utterance from a Nazi officer that the Holocaust
>extermination stories are believable.

    Mr. Raven does not explain how the Hoess statements have been
"corrected."  I wonder whether they have been "corrected" to the extent
that Greg Raven "corrected" a statement by Himmler, eager as he was to
have an emphatic statement by a high Nazi officer that there was no policy
of extermination?  (Himmler uttered a conditional statment which Raven
turned into an unconditional statement by cutting out the word "if" - and
furthermore, Raven neglected to mention that the Himmler statement in
question was about the Poles, not the Jews.)

    Then there's the way Raven "corrected" Pressac's comments on the
testimony of Bo"ck - and point-blank refused to give a page number so that
his, um, er, "creative interpretation" could be verified.  (I found it
anyway.  It failed to verify.)


>Even Christopher Browning and Deborah Lipstadt have abandoned Hoess.

    I see Mr. Raven has not abandoned this lie - and I now call it a lie, 
since its falsity was been pointed out to him long ago.

    Posted/emailed to Mr. Raven, even though he claims to delete emails 
unread so that he can continue to pretend he hasn't seen anything he 
can't deal with.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From joelr@winternet.com Thu Jun 29 05:33:41 PDT 1995
Article: 22855 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bc.net!torn!uunet.ca!news.uunet.ca!io.org!winternet.com!news
From: joelr@winternet.com   (Joel Rosenberg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: IHR leadership/financial woes
Date: 26 Jun 1995 20:16:37 GMT
Organization: StarNet Communications, Inc
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <3sn4j5$el8@blackice.winternet.com>
References: <3sc71i$k9r@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> 
Reply-To: joelr@winternet.com  (Joel Rosenberg)
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In , greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) writes:
>In article <3sc71i$k9r@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>, kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca
>(Ken McVay OBC) wrote:
>
>> Rumour has it that our friend Fritz Berg is cracking the whip at the
>> IHR, and trying to rid them of a few stalwart "revisionist
>> scholars." Is this correct, Mr. Raven? Is Berg now running the IHR?
>> ("No antisemites here, nosirreebob!")
>
>Your rumors are as accurate as your other information. Fritz Berg has
>nothing to do with the running of the IHR, period.

Then what is your present claim as to his connection with the IHR?


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Thu Jun 29 15:21:37 PDT 1995
Article: 22865 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bc.net!unixg.ubc.ca!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!zip.eecs.umich.edu!caen!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: IHR leadership/financial woes
Date: 26 Jun 1995 16:50 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 16
Distribution: world
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In article <3slnog$p90@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, hmazal@aol.com (HMazal) writes...
>>(text deleted)one of the reasons why The Barnes Review has such a high
>>circulation is that Carto gave away thousands of free subscriptions.
>(text >deleted.)
> 
>Is this not the same technique that Mr.  Bradley Smith used to get his
>video into circulation...   .giving it away?

    And undoubtably next year Bradley will be hawking the tape with the
    slogan "over a thousand copies in circulation!" when he will have sold 
    only a few dozen.

===========================================================================
daniel david mittleman     -     danny@arizona.edu     -     (520) 621-2932

       "I can't complain, but sometimes I still do..."  -- Joe Walsh


From hkatz@earth.usa.net Sat Jul  1 05:19:54 PDT 1995
Article: 22950 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bc.net!unixg.ubc.ca!info.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!europa.chnt.gtegsc.com!news.sprintlink.net!EU.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.megaweb.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!earth.usa.net!earth.usa.net!not-for-mail
From: hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What time is it, boys and girls?  It's AUSROTTEN time!
Date: 27 Jun 1995 22:20:48 -0600
Organization: Large
Lines: 43
Distribution: World
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In article <3sf0fr$kuc@agate.berkeley.edu>,
schultz@garnet.berkeley.edu (Richard Schultz) wrote:

	Now, if "ausrotten" simply means to "uproot", why does Ley go on
	to say "Es is nicht genug, den Juden. . . auszugliedern" (It is
	not enough to separate out the Jews)?


In article ,
Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com) enlightens us with his double-talk:

	I don't speak German,...

Mr. Raven is too modest!  Not only does he not speak any German, this
eminent "scholar" cannot even be bothered to check a German-English
dictionary!


	...but from what I understand,...

Obviously an attempt to add humor to his post.


	...even Robert Wolfe (Formerly?) of the National Archives freely
	admits that "ausrotten" means "uproot."

Now, that really does make a huge difference!  The one and only Mr.
Robert Wolfe, whose name has by now become a household word across the
nation!  And Mr. Raven, who freely admits his contempt for professional
academics and historians, has found the last bastion of genuine
scholarship left in the entire establishment -- the world-renowned,
possibly former, National Archivist... What's-his-name!

By the way, what does What's-his-name freely admit "werklich tot" and
"vernichtung" mean?  I suspect that to most people in this newsgroup it
means, "Greg Raven is full of crap!"  And the worst part is, Mr. Raven
does not think it stinks!

--
Harry Katz

Reverence of God is the basis of morality.
	-- The Wit and Wisdom of the Talmud, Madison C. Peters, ed.


From hkatz@earth.usa.net Sat Jul  1 05:19:58 PDT 1995
Article: 22953 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bc.net!unixg.ubc.ca!vanbc.wimsey.com!news.mindlink.net!agate!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!europa.chnt.gtegsc.com!news.sprintlink.net!cam.news.pipex.net!pipex!soap.news.pipex.net!pipex!edi.news.pipex.net!pipex!uunet!in1.uu.net!earth.usa.net!earth.usa.net!not-for-mail
From: hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,talk.politics.misc
Subject: Re: Engineer Says - NO HOLOCAUST * NO WAY * NO HOW !
Followup-To: alt.revisionism,talk.politics.misc
Date: 27 Jun 1995 23:04:16 -0600
Organization: Large
Lines: 49
Distribution: world
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References: <3qocgi$6gm@agate.berkeley.edu> <3qruaf$u3t@epaus.island.net> <3rd8bg$juo@ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <10JUN199519191539@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <3rulsi$bit@ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <3scfch$bt7@bird.summit.novell.com> <3sh6a1$98m@ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> 
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Xref: news.port.island.net alt.revisionism:22953 talk.politics.misc:206099

In <3scfch$bt7@bird.summit.novell.com>
mattk@summit.novell.com (mattk) asked: 

	So tell us, Frank, how many Jews do *you* think were gassed at
	Auschwitz?

In article <3sh6a1$98m@ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>,
forman@ix.netcom.com (Frank Forman) responded:

	The anti-Revisionist arguments on alt.revisionism, plus the
	unwillingness or inability of Revisionists to respond, have
	persuaded me that homocidal gassings did take place at
	Auschwitz. I don't know how many, and I don't know what the
	range of estimates among Exterminationist historians are.

In article ,
Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com) steps in:

	The correct answer is "zero." There are no gas chambers, no
	evidence of gas chambers, poor-to-nonexistent evidence of
	gassings in non-gas chambers,...

Not content with having been instrumental in convincing Mr. Forman that
homicidal gassings did indeed occur at Auschwitz, Mr. Raven insists on
adding fuel to the fire!  Like a young baby just learning to talk, all
Mr. Raven can say is, "No! No! No!" and pretend that it is up to the
rest of the world to prove to him that the truth is the truth.


	...and the few "eyewitness" accounts...

Mr. Raven means the few _tons_ of eyewitness accounts!


	...there are either do not square with the physical facts,
	or violate laws of physics.

Having proved himself to be an ignoramus in the field of history, Mr.
Raven is anxious to establish his ignorance of the laws of physics.

Well, Mr. Raven has provided a whole paragraph!  This surely must have
exhausted all of his "knowledge" on the subject!

--
Harry Katz

We cannot comprehend either the prosperity or the sufferings of the
righteous.
	-- The Wit and Wisdom of the Talmud, Madison C. Peters, ed.


From hkatz@earth.usa.net Sat Jul  1 05:20:00 PDT 1995
Article: 22954 of alt.revisionism
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From: hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: IHR leadership/financial woes
Date: 27 Jun 1995 22:41:45 -0600
Organization: Large
Lines: 16
Distribution: World
Message-ID: <3sqmi9$74r@earth.usa.net>
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In article ,
Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com) writes:

	Also, one of the reasons why The Barnes Review has such a high
	circulation is that Carto gave away thousands of free
	subscriptions. It, like all other Carto-controlled enterprises,
	is losing money at a breathtaking rate.

But not as fast as Mr. Raven is losing credibility!

--
Harry Katz

He who unjustly hands over one man's goods to another, he shall pay God
for it with his own soul.
	-- The Wit and Wisdom of the Talmud, Madison C. Peters, ed.

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