The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/r/raven.greg/1994/raven.1294


Archive/File: holocaust/usa/ihr raven.1294
Last-Modified: 1995/01/03

Article 19568 of alt.revisionism:
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The other Himmler
Date: Sun, 27 Nov 1994 20:44:47 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 35
Message-ID: 
References:  <3b10ui$ckv@access4.digex.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan009.kaiwan.com

In article <3b10ui$ckv@access4.digex.net>, mstein@access4.digex.net
(Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>    From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
>    Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
>    Subject: The other Himmler
>    Followup-To: alt.revisionism
>    Date: Fri, 14 Oct 1994 07:25:38 -0800
>    Organization: Institute for Historical Review
>    Message-ID: 
> 
>    May 1940 memo to Hitler: "I hope to see the complete elimination of the
>    concept of the Jew through the possibility of a large-scale emigration of
>    all Jews to Africa or otherwise in a colony;" "out of inner conviction"
>    the idea of "physical elimination of a people [must be rejected] as 
>    un-Germanic and impossible."
> 
>     We asked Greg for a source, and he never provided one.  I'm going to 
> give a more complete version of this passage now.

Sorry. I never saw your request for a source. If you are still interested,
check:

Himmler memo to Hitler, May 1940. NO-1880. NMT, vol. 13, pp. 147-150.;
Vierteljahrshefte fuer Zeitgeschichte, No. 5, 1957, p. 197.

-- 
Greg Raven
greg.ihr@kaiwan.com
http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr
-----------------------------------------------------
For free information about the IHR, write to:
IHR, P.O. Box 241556, Newport Beach, CA 92659
Journal of Historical Review, $40 (6 issues per year)
The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, by Dr. Arthur Butz, $10 + $2 shipping


Article 19569 of alt.revisionism:
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Greg reply to Dave in Scotland
Date: Sun, 27 Nov 1994 20:48:16 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 27
Message-ID: 
References:  <3av25c$4dp@riscsm.scripps.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan009.kaiwan.com

In article <3av25c$4dp@riscsm.scripps.edu>, misrael@scripps.edu (Mark
Israel) wrote:
>    So those who affirm that there were gas chambers, including all the
> history professors, honestly believe that there were gas chambers, right?

I wouldn't say that, but it is possible that many do believe the gas
chambers to be as real as anything else, even though they themselves never
saw them.

> > There is immense power to be had by convincing others that one has 
> > experienced the ultimate victimization.
> 
>    Those who experienced the "ultimate victimization" are *dead*!

My point is that if you can convince others that you or some group with
which you are affiliated are the "ultimate victims," then you can gain a
great deal of power.

-- 
Greg Raven
greg.ihr@kaiwan.com
http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr
-----------------------------------------------------
For free information about the IHR, write to:
IHR, P.O. Box 241556, Newport Beach, CA 92659
Journal of Historical Review, $40 (6 issues per year)
The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, by Dr. Arthur Butz, $10 + $2 shipping


Article 19570 of alt.revisionism:
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Zionist collaboration with the Third Reich
Date: Sun, 27 Nov 1994 20:49:53 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 31
Message-ID: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan009.kaiwan.com

1/11/41: Avraham Stern proposes a formal military pact between the
National Military Organization (NMO), of which Yitzhak Shamir, future
Prime Minister of Israel, is a prominent leader, and the Nazi Third Reich.
This proposal becomes known as the Ankara document, by virtue of its being
discovered after the war in the files of the German Embassy in Turkey. It
states the following: ". . . The NMO, which is well-acquainted with the
goodwill of the German Reich government and its authorities towards
Zionist activity inside Germany and towards Zionist emigration plans, is
of the opinion that: 1) Common interests could exist between the
establishment of a New Order in Europe in conformity with the German
concept, and the true national aspirations of the Jewish people as they
are embodied by the NMO. 2) Cooperation between the new Germany and
renewed folkish-national Hebraium would be possible and 3) The
establishment of the historical Jewish state on a national and
totalitarian basis, and bound by a treaty with the German Reich, would be
in the interest of a maintained and strengthened future German position in
the Near East. [paragraph] Proceeding from these considerations, the NMO
in Palestine, under the condition that the above-mentioned national
aspirations of the Israeli freedom movement are recognized on the side of
the German Reich, offers to actively take part in the war on Germany's
side."

-- 
Greg Raven
greg.ihr@kaiwan.com
http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr
-----------------------------------------------------
For free information about the IHR, write to:
IHR, P.O. Box 241556, Newport Beach, CA 92659
Journal of Historical Review, $40 (6 issues per year)
The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, by Dr. Arthur Butz, $10 + $2 shipping


Article 19571 of alt.revisionism:
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Trick navigation techniques
Date: Sun, 27 Nov 1994 20:59:10 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 20
Message-ID: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan009.kaiwan.com

If you are using one of the new URL-cognizant news readers, such as
NewsWatcher, you should be able to navigate to my home WWW page or send me
e-mail from within your newsreader by clicking on either the e-mail
address or URL in my signature. For example, in Mac NewsWatcher,
Command-clicking the address opens a new message window preselected to
send an e-mail message. Command-clicking my WWW page URL calls up whatever
URL helper program you have specified, which then navigates to my home
page and displays it over NewsWatcher.

The future is right around the corner.

-- 
Greg Raven
mailto:greg.ihr@kaiwan.com
http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr
-----------------------------------------------------
For free information about the IHR, write to:
IHR, P.O. Box 241556, Newport Beach, CA 92659
Journal of Historical Review, $40 (6 issues per year)
The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, by Dr. Arthur Butz, $10 + $2 shipping


Article 19575 of alt.revisionism:
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From: publius@gate.net (Publius)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Zionist collaboration with the Third Reich
Date: 29 Nov 1994 20:40:43 GMT
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <3bg3kb$1u8h@tequesta.gate.net>
References:  <3bbt89$26u@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
NNTP-Posting-Host: seminole.gate.net
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]

Danny Keren (dzk@cs.brown.edu) wrote:
: The only purpose of this "cooperation" was to try and get Jews
: out of Europe. The proposition was made by Stern, the leader
: of a tiny organization in Palestine, who was at odds with
: all the mainstream Zionist organizations in Palestine (as a 
: matter of fact, his and other radical movements sometimes
: had violent confrontations with the mainstream Zionist
: organizations).

: Stern took a line of violent fight against the British occupation
: forces, and was eventually captured by the Brits and shot
: on the spot.

: It should also be noted that Stern made his offer at a rather
: early stage of the Nazi campaign against the Jews, before the
: establishment of the major death camps and before hardly any
: details about Nazi mass murder leaked out.

: To try and represent this attempt of saving Jews from the
: Nazis, made by an individual who was in no way a representative
: of "Zionism", as "Zionist cooperation with the Nazis", is cheap,
: ridiculous propaganda, typical of our Hitler admirer Greg Raven.


: -Danny Keren

  Is there anything to the story that Eichman was a Jew - commissioned
  by the Nazis to expedite the movement of Jews to Palestine?
  Some time ago I saw a picture of Eichman's son who lives in
  Argentina.  He certainly looks Jewish. PUBLIUS
.


Article 19587 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Zionist collaboration with the Third Reich
Date: 28 Nov 1994 06:27:21 GMT
Organization: Brown University
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <3bbt89$26u@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu

The only purpose of this "cooperation" was to try and get Jews
out of Europe. The proposition was made by Stern, the leader
of a tiny organization in Palestine, who was at odds with
all the mainstream Zionist organizations in Palestine (as a 
matter of fact, his and other radical movements sometimes
had violent confrontations with the mainstream Zionist
organizations).

Stern took a line of violent fight against the British occupation
forces, and was eventually captured by the Brits and shot
on the spot.

It should also be noted that Stern made his offer at a rather
early stage of the Nazi campaign against the Jews, before the
establishment of the major death camps and before hardly any
details about Nazi mass murder leaked out.

To try and represent this attempt of saving Jews from the
Nazis, made by an individual who was in no way a representative
of "Zionism", as "Zionist cooperation with the Nazis", is cheap,
ridiculous propaganda, typical of our Hitler admirer Greg Raven.


-Danny Keren.


Article 19596 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The other Himmler
Date: 28 Nov 1994 00:45:26 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <3bbqpm$n35@access4.digex.net>
References:  <3b10ui$ckv@access4.digex.net> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net

In article ,
Greg Raven  wrote:
>>     We asked Greg for a source, and he never provided one.  I'm going to 
>> give a more complete version of this passage now.
>
>Sorry. I never saw your request for a source. If you are still interested,
>check:
>
>Himmler memo to Hitler, May 1940. NO-1880. NMT, vol. 13, pp. 147-150.;
>Vierteljahrshefte fuer Zeitgeschichte, No. 5, 1957, p. 197.

    Are you saying that you worked directly from this unabridged primary
source, made the translation yourself, and personally removed the crucial
word "if" which changed Himmler's conditional formulation "*if* one
rejects [Ausrottung]" into the emphatic "must be rejected?"
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


Article 19606 of alt.revisionism:
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From: erd@regent.e-technik.tu-muenchen.de (Eric Doenges)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Zionist collaboration with the Third Reich
Date: 30 Nov 1994 15:15:20 +0100
Organization: Technical University of Munich, Germany
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <3bi1do$4tr@residuum.regent.e-technik.tu-muenchen.de>
References:  <3bbt89$26u@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> <3bg3kb$1u8h@tequesta.gate.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: residuum.regent.e-technik.tu-muenchen.de

publius@gate.net (Publius) writes:

>  Is there anything to the story that Eichman was a Jew - commissioned
>  by the Nazis to expedite the movement of Jews to Palestine?
>  Some time ago I saw a picture of Eichman's son who lives in
>  Argentina.  He certainly looks Jewish. PUBLIUS

Why, does he have a crooked nose ? Seriously, judging by looks if someone
is Jewish or not is utterly impossible because Jews have been spread all
across Europe and the Middle East since Roman times. That's almost 2000
years to mix with non-Jews. Any special physical characteristics would be
long gone by now. If Jews hadn't been persecuted in one way or another
almost all that time, I'd guess they would have ceased to exist as an
ethnic group long ago.
--
                                                                          (__)
     _/_/_/ _/_/   _/_/                                                   (oo)
    _/     _/ _/  _/ _/  Eric Doenges                             /--------\/
   _/_/   _/_/   _/ _/   (erd@regent.e-technik.tu-muenchen.de)   * o|     ||
  _/     _/ _/  _/ _/                                               ||----||
 _/_/_/ _/  _/ _/_/                                              ooo~~    ~~


Article 19609 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Greg reply to Dave in Scotland
Date: 28 Nov 1994 17:39:40 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <3bdm7c$5tr@access4.digex.net>
References:    
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net

In article ,
Ross Vicksell  wrote:
>Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com) wrote:
>: In article , cendbj@clust.hw.ac.uk
>: (David Johnston) wrote:
>: > If it is a mass delusion, then it is unprecedented in history. If 
>: > they all made it up, the stories show a remarkable consistency. 
>
>Not remarkable at all.  They merely copy each others stories.

    How are these stories communicated from person to person?

    How do so many people remember all the details of this lie?  (It is 
much harder to keep a lie straight than a true memory.)

    I've asked you the following quesiton before, but received no answer:
What is your EVIDENCE for all this, Ross?  So far you have provided none. 


> The Zionists, who wanted to establish a Jewish State in Palestine.

    Please provide details of how this hoax worked and was organized, 
including names, places, and dates.

    What is your EVIDENCE, Ross?  So far you have provided none.


>: > Who kept it going?
>
> The same.

    Maybe you share Greg Raven's myopia.  Let me make this easier for 
you to see.

    WHAT IS YOUR EVIDENCE, ROSS?  SO FAR YOU HAVE PROVIDED NONE. 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


Article 19610 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Greg reply to Dave in Scotland
Date: 28 Nov 1994 17:29:54 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 93
Message-ID: <3bdll2$14q@access4.digex.net>
References:   
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net

In article ,
Greg Raven  wrote:
>In article , cendbj@clust.hw.ac.uk
>(David Johnston) wrote:
>> If you assert that the Holocaust did not happen, then those who come forward 
>> as eyewitnesses saying that it did, and that they saw part of it, must be 
>> lying. Therefore, either somebody told them what to say, they all made it up, 
>> or they are all suffering from a mass delusion. If it is a mass
>delusion, then 
>> it is unprecedented in history. If they all made it up, the stories show a 
>> remarkable consistancy. The only premise left is that it is a deliberate
>hoax. 
>> So who started this hoax? Who kept it going?
>
>You are again assuming facts not in evidence. I do not "deny" the
>"Holocaust." What I DO say is that the Holocaust story, as it is currently
>told, contains many errors and falsehoods.

    You are evading the question (as well as misusing the idiom "assuming
facts not in evidence").  I will reprase the question.  For the words "If
you assert the Holocaust did not happen," please substitute, "If you
assert that homicidal gassings did not happen."  (I trust you will agree
that you have asserted *that*!) The remainder of the question stays as is. 
Now please stop evading the question and answer it. How did so many
witnesses come to tell such consistent stories if the stories were 
false?  There were too many witnesses for this to have happened by chance 
alone.  Therefore there would have to have been a deliberate effort to 
communicate a false story and suborn people to tell it in place of their 
honest personal memories.  Please provide your evidence for this.


>> What did Hoess have to gain? 
>
>To give just two examples, he had to gain 1) the cessation of the torture
>to which he was subjected, and 2) the assurance that his family would not
>be sent to the Soviet Union.

    Please provide evidence that he was 1) tortured, and 2) threatened 
with his family being sent to the Soviet Union.


>> but was he [Hoess] tortured all the way through writing his autobiography?
>> If not, 
>> your assertation of torture is worthless.
>
>We do not know the precise conditions under which Hoess was kept. However,
>we do know that between the tortured testimony (which is the most often
>quoted) and the outright errors, Hoess' post-war utterances on this matter
>must be approached with the utmost care ... something that the
>exterminationists have failed to do until very recently, when, for
>example, Deborah Lipstadt and Christopher Browning effectively discarded
>Hoess as proof of the Holocaust extermination story.

    To the best of my knowledge this is false.  Lipstadt and Browning have
discarded Hoess as reliable evidence of the number of people killed at
Auschwitz.  They have not discarded Hoess as reliable evidence of the fact
that there were homicidal gassings.  If you have a source which says
otherwise, please cite it.  Give the name of the publication, date (if a
periodical), publisher and year (if a book), and page number.  If you
provide a quote, please quote the entire relevant paragraph(s) word for
word without trying to omit or reword anything.


>> No, no, no. You've got to prove they are lies. Just saying they are lies 
>> doesn't make them lies. And surely you mean *all*. Saying most are lies 
>> implies some are true. Doesn't help your case much if you admit that.
>
>You can prove it to yourself even without me. Read a so-called eyewitness
>account. If it conflicts with physical reality, then it contains a lie.

    This is not true.  It may contain an error.  A lie is a *deliberate*
statement contrary to fact.  An error is an *unintentional* statement
contrary to fact.  Suppose, for example, I say that I ate turkey with my
parents on the afternoon of Nov. 23rd.  However, it is patently clear that
I was nowhere near my parents at that time, but hard at work in my office. 
The obvious explanation for this conflict with physical reality is that I
was confused about the day of month on which Thanksgiving fell - I did eat
turkey with my parents, but on the 24th.  My misstatement is not a lie,
but an error.


>As for the overall veracity of these so-called witnesses, I think you will
>find that there are many parts of there stories that contain truthful
>statements. However, when you get to statements dealing with the so-called
>gas chambers, for which we have no physical evidence as to their
>existence,

    False.  Even Fred Leuchter found cyanide traces.  That is physical
evidence consistent with a claim of homicidal gassing.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


Article 19612 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!kmcvay
From: kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay)
Subject: Re: Greg reply to Dave in Scotland
References:   <3bdll2$14q@access4.digex.net>
Organization: The Old Frog's Almanac
Message-ID: <1994Dec04.015155.10944@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
Date: Sun, 04 Dec 94 01:51:55 GMT

In article <3bdll2$14q@access4.digex.net> mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) writes:
>In article ,
>Greg Raven  wrote:

>>You are again assuming facts not in evidence. I do not "deny" the
>>"Holocaust." What I DO say is that the Holocaust story, as it is currently
>>told, contains many errors and falsehoods.

>>> What did Hoess have to gain? 

>>To give just two examples, he had to gain 1) the cessation of the torture
>>to which he was subjected, and 2) the assurance that his family would not
>>be sent to the Soviet Union.

>    Please provide evidence that he was 1) tortured, and 2) threatened 
>with his family being sent to the Soviet Union.

Further, one might ask Mr. Raven to demonstrate that Hoess was
tortured _after_ his detention by the British, before his trial.   

>>We do not know the precise conditions under which Hoess was kept. However,
>>we do know that between the tortured testimony (which is the most often
>>quoted) and the outright errors, Hoess' post-war utterances on this matter
>>must be approached with the utmost care ... something that the
>>exterminationists have failed to do until very recently, when, for
>>example, Deborah Lipstadt and Christopher Browning effectively discarded
>>Hoess as proof of the Holocaust extermination story.

>    To the best of my knowledge this is false.  Lipstadt and Browning have
>discarded Hoess as reliable evidence of the number of people killed at
>Auschwitz.  They have not discarded Hoess as reliable evidence of the fact
>that there were homicidal gassings.  If you have a source which says
>otherwise, please cite it.  Give the name of the publication, date (if a
>periodical), publisher and year (if a book), and page number.  If you
>provide a quote, please quote the entire relevant paragraph(s) word for
>word without trying to omit or reword anything.

Note how Mr. Raven changes his position from "Hoess was dismissed"
as a witness to "he was effectively discarded." It would seem his
myopia does not extend to the refutations of his incorrect
assertions about what Lipstadt and Browning had to say.. it is
always fascinating to note how such claims are made, refuted, and
then made again and again, as if never refuted in the first
instance.

>>As for the overall veracity of these so-called witnesses, I think you will
>>find that there are many parts of there stories that contain truthful
>>statements. However, when you get to statements dealing with the so-called
>>gas chambers, for which we have no physical evidence as to their
>>existence,

>    False.  Even Fred Leuchter found cyanide traces.  That is physical
>evidence consistent with a claim of homicidal gassing.

It is interesting to note that the defense attornies at Nuremberg
were disinclined to cross-examine death camp survivors during the
Soviet portion of the Nuremberg trials ("Crimes against humanity in
the East" portion, which the Soviets conducted), even though they
were quite happy to spend three hours in their cross-examination of
General Paulis. Why does Mr. Raven suppose they would vigorously
question the General, and yet remain utterly silent when confronted
with survivors from Auschwitz and Treblinka?

Mr. Raven's interpretation of such realities should be interesting.

-- 
   /^\__/^\                 The Old Frog's Almanac 
  / @    @ \     A Salute to That Old Frog Himse'f, Ryugen Fisher
 (          )       Vancouver Island, British Columbia, Canada
  \  ~~~~  /               


Article 19617 of alt.revisionism:
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From: spok+@cs.cmu.edu (John Ockerbloom)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: World wide web holocaust site
Date: 28 Nov 1994 22:06:34 GMT
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon
Lines: 45
Message-ID: <3bdk9a$nei@casaba.srv.cs.cmu.edu>
References: <1706BF417S86.DEACON@VM.TEMPLE.EDU> <3ag7s3$cp0@casaba.srv.cs.cmu.edu> <3agc4j$hse@casaba.srv.cs.cmu.edu> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: gs1.sp.cs.cmu.edu

In article ,
Greg Raven  wrote:
[I wrote:]
>> > And since many of the points have been specifically deflated
>> >since Raven got here, he can't claim ignorance that he's not aware he's
>> >propagating falsehoods.
>
>You are free to believe that many (or even all) of my points have been
>deflated. However, I firmly believe that any fair-minded person would see
>that few if any of my points have been deflated. Can you site any specific
>claims you think have been deflated?

Well, yes, plenty.  But since you like to deal with one piece of
evidence at a time, I'll just give my first citation now:

From "Auschwitz: Myths and Facts" (an IHR pamphlet):

"No Documentary Evidence

Many thousands of secret German documents dealing with Auschwitz were
confiscated after the war by the Allies. Not a single one refers to a
policy or program of extermination. In fact, the extermination story
cannot be reconciled with the documentary evidence."

NOTE CAREFULLY: The paragraph above is reproduced in its entirety.  It
states that there is no reference to any policy or program of extermination.
Unlike some of Greg's posts, it does not restrict the domain of discussion
to policies involving gas chambers.

Since May 4, you have been presented with a number of German documents
referring to policies of extermination.  Most prominently presented
were wartime speeches by Himmler saying that the extermination of the Jews "is
in our program".  Does this not refer to a policy or program of
extermination?

If you claim it does not, explain why Himmler's explicit references to
the "extermination of the Jews" don't really refer to the
extermination of the Jews.  Note that stating that Himmler's speech
doesn't refer to gas chambers doesn't show anything, since the paragraph
I quoted from your brochure doesn't refer to gas chambers either.

John Ockerbloom
-- 
==========================================================================
ockerbloom@cs.cmu.edu            1603 Beechwood Blvd., Pittsburgh PA 15217


Article 19655 of alt.revisionism:
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From: k044477@kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Mr. Raven, we have unfinished business
Date: Thu, 01 Dec 1994 00:32:07 -0500
Organization: Msen, Inc. -- Ann Arbor, MI (account info: +1 313 998-4562)
Lines: 45
Message-ID: 
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: lpi.pnet.msen.com

Mr. Raven, you appear to be back on-line.

When I last exchanged email with you, about a week and a half ago,
you stated you were too busy to contribute anything to the Himmler
thread we had going.  You said you were quite busy finishing up
the Journal, and that you were going to be moving.  So I told you
I'd be getting back in touch with you in early December.

Well, it's half an hour into December, and I just now got time to
catch up on Usenet.  Much to my surprise, you seem to have had
enough free time to have posted a half-dozen Usenet articles.

Do you now have enough time to resume the discussion of Himmler
where you left off?


And, as long as you're bringing up the subject of the Web:

> If you are using one of the new URL-cognizant news readers, such as
> NewsWatcher, you should be able to navigate to my home WWW page [...]

As you're aware, Mr. Raven, you and I both are starting up our own
Web sites.  We each have quite a different "take" on the goings-on
in alt.revisionism, and the revisionist movement in general.

Since I am in favor of showing people all sides of the story, I've
provided a link to your Web home page on the home page of my Web.
I'm not afraid to let the user read as much as he or she desires,
and to make up his or her own mind;  in fact, I actively encourage
people to examine your Web pages for inaccuracies.

For example, see:

http://www.kzoo.edu/~k044477/RUE2-RavenTrustworthy.html

I've asked you in email, Mr. Raven, if you will put a link to _my_
Web site on _your_ home page.  You have declined even to answer me.

I now ask you again, publicly this time.  Will you allow -- nay,
invite, encourage -- readers of your Web pages the opportunity to
see a viewpoint besides your own?

And if not -- what are you afraid of?

Posted and emailed.


Article 19882 of alt.revisionism:
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Human Soap
Date: Sun, 11 Dec 1994 08:32:34 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 297
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NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan009.kaiwan.com

"Jewish Soap"

by Mark Weber

One of the most lurid and slanderous Holocaust claims is the story that
the Germans manufactured soap from the bodies of their victims. Although a
similar charge during the First World War was exposed as a hoax almost
immediately afterwards, it was nevertheless revived and widely believed
during the Second. More important, this accusation was "proved" at the
main Nuremberg trial of 1945-1946, and has been authoritatively endorsed
by numerous historians in the decades since. In recent years, though, as
part of a broad retreat from the most obviously untenable aspects of the
"orthodox" extermination story, Holocaust historians have grudgingly
conceded that the human soap tale is a wartime propaganda lie. In their
retreat, though, these historians have tried to dismiss the soap story as
a mere wartime "rumor," neglecting to mention that international Jewish
organizations and then Allied governments endorsed and sanctioned this
libelous canard.

Wartime rumors that the Germans were manufacturing soap from the corpses
of slaughtered Jews were based in part on the fact that soap bars
distributed by German authorities in Jewish ghettos and camps bore the
impressed initials "RIF," which many took to stand for "Rein juedisches
Fett" or "Pure Jewish Fat." (It did not seem to matter that the letters
were "RIF" and not "RJF.") These rumors spread so widely in 1941 and 1942
that by late 1942 German authorities in Poland and Slovakia were
expressing official concern about their impact.

According to a Polish source quoted in a secret wartime U.S. Army military
intelligence report, for example, the Germans were operating a "human soap
factory" in 1941 at Turek, Poland. "The Germans had brought thousands of
Polish teachers, priests and Jews there and after extracting the blood
serum from their bodies, had thrown them on large pots and melted off
grease to make soap," the intelligence report added.

Macabre "Jewish soap" jokes became popular in the ghettos and camps, and
many non-Jews on the outside came to believe the story. When trains loaded
with Jewish deportees stopped temporarily at rail stations, Poles
reportedly would gleefully shout at them: "Jews to soap!" Even British
prisoners of war interned at Auschwitz in 1944 testified later about the
wartime rumors that corpses of gassing victims were being turned into soap
there.

In spite of its inherently incredible character, the soap story became an
important feature of Jewish and Allied war propaganda. Rabbi Stephen S.
Wise, wartime head of both the World Jewish Congress and the American
Jewish Congress, publicly charged in November 1942 that Jewish corpses
were being "processed into such war-vital commodities as soap, fats and
fertilizer" by the Germans. He further announced that the Germans were
"even exhuming the dead for the value of the corpses," and were paying
fifty marks for each body.

In late 1942, the Congress Weekly, published by the American Jewish
Congress, editorialized that the Germans were turning Jews "by scientific
methods of dissolution into fertilizer, soap and glue." An article in the
same issue reported that Jewish deportees from France and Holland were
being processed into "soap, glue and train oil" in at least two special
factories in Germany. Typical of many other American periodicals, the
influential New Republic reported in early 1943 that the Germans were
"using the bodies of their Jewish victims to make soap and fertilizer in a
factory at Siedlce."

During June and July 1943, two prominent representatives of the
Moscow-based "Jewish Anti-Fascist Committee" toured the United States and
raised more than two million dollars for the Soviet war effort at a series
of mass meetings. At each of these rallies, Soviet Jewish leader Solomon
Mikhoels showed the crowd a bar of soap that he said was made from Jewish
corpses.

After the war the soap story was given important legitimacy at the main
Nuremberg trial. L. N. Smirnov, Chief Counsellor of Justice for the USSR,
declared to the Tribunal:

... The same base, rationalized SS technical minds which created gas
chambers and murder vans, began devising such methods of complete
annihilation of human bodies, which would not only conceal the traces of
their crimes, but also to serve in the manufacturing of certain products.
In the Danzig Anatomical Institute, semi-industrial experiments in the
production of soap from human bodies and the tanning of human skin for
industrial purposes were carried out.

Smirnov quoted at length from an affidavit by Sigmund Mazur, an Institute
employee, which was accepted as Nuremberg exhibit USSR-197. It alleged
that Dr. Rudolf Spanner, the head of the Danzig Institute, had ordered the
production of soap from corpses in 1943. According to Mazur's affidavit,
Dr. Spanner's operation was of interest to high-ranking German officials.
Education Minister Bernhard Rust and Health Leader Dr. Leonardo Conti, as
well as professors from other medical institutes, came to witness
Spanner's efforts. Mazur also claimed to have used the "human soap" to
wash himself and his laundry.

A human soap "recipe," allegedly prepared by Dr. Spanner (Nuremberg
document USSR-196), was also presented. Finally, a sample of what was
supposed to be a piece of "human soap" was submitted to the Nuremberg
Tribunal as exhibit USSR-393.

In his closing address to the Tribunal, chief British prosecutor Sir
Hartley Shawcross echoed his Soviet colleague: "On occasion, even the
bodies of their victims were used to make good the wartime shortage of
soap." And in their final judgment, the Nuremberg Tribunal judges found
that "attempts were made to utilize the fat from the bodies of the victims
in the commercial manufacture of soap."

It is worth emphasizing here that the "evidence" presented at the
Nuremberg Tribunal for the bogus soap story was no less substantial than
the "evidence" presented for the claims of mass extermination in "gas
chambers." At least in the former case, an actual sample of soap
supposedly made from corpses was submitted in evidence.

After the war, supposed Holocaust victims were solemnly buried, in the
form of soap bars, in Jewish cemeteries. In 1948, for example, four such
bars wrapped in a funeral shroud were ceremoniously buried according to
Jewish religious ritual at the Haifa cemetery in Israel. Other bars of
"Jewish soap" have been displayed as grim Holocaust relics at the Jewish
Historical Institute in Warsaw, the Stutthof Museum near Gdansk (Danzig),
the Yivo Institute in New York, the Holocaust Museum in Philadelphia, the
Jewish Holocaust Centre in Melbourne (Australia), and at various locations
in Israel.

Numerous Jews who lived in German ghettos and camps during the war helped
keep the soap story alive many years later. Ben Edelbaum, for example,
wrote in his 1980 memoir Growing Up in the Holocaust:

Often with our rations in the ghettos, the Germans had included a bar of
soap branded with initials R.J.F. which came to be known as "Rif" soap. It
wasn't until the war had ended that we learned the horrible truth about
the bar of soap. Had we known in the ghetto, every bar of "Rif" soap would
have been accorded a sacred Jewish funeral in the cemetery at Marysin. As
it was, we were completely oblivious to its origin and used the bones and
flesh of our murdered loved ones to wash our bodies.

Nesse Godin was transferred from a ghetto in Lithuania to the Stutthof
concentration camp in the spring of 1944. In a 1983 interview, she
recalled her arrival there:

That day they gave us a shower and a piece of soap. After the war we found
out the soap was made out of pure Jew fat, Rein Juden Fett, marked in the
initials on the soap that I washed with. For all I know sometimes maybe
there was a little bit of my father's fat in that soap that I washed with.
How do you think I feel when I think about that?

Mel Mermelstein, the former Auschwitz inmate who was featured in the
sensationalized April 1991 cable television movie "Never Forget" (and who
is currently suing the Institute for Historical Review and three other
defendants for $11 million), declared in a 1981 sworn deposition that he
and other camp inmates used soap bars made from human fat. It was an
"established fact," he insisted, that the soap he washed with was made
from Jewish bodies.

Renowned "Nazi hunter" Simon Wiesenthal repeated the soap tale in a series
of articles published in 1946 in the Austrian Jewish community paper Der
Neue Weg. In the first of these he wrote:

During the last weeks of March the Romanian press reported an unusual
piece of news: In the small Romanian city of Folticeni twenty boxes of
soap were buried in the Jewish cemetery with full ceremony and complete
funeral rites. This soap had been found recently in a former German army
depot. On the boxes were the initials RIF, "Pure Jewish Fat." These boxes
were destined for the Waffen-SS. The wrapping paper revealed with
completely cynical objectivity that this soap was manufactured from Jewish
bodies. Surprisingly, the thorough Germans forgot to describe whether the
soap was produced from children, girls, men or elderly persons.

Wiesenthal went on:

After 1942 people in the General Government [Poland] knew quite well what
the RIF soap meant. The civilized world may not believe the joy with which
the Nazis and their women in the General Government thought of this soap.
In each piece of soap they saw a Jew who had been magically put there, and
had thus been prevented from growing into a second Freud, Ehrlich or
Einstein.

In another article he observed: "The production of soap from human fat is
so unbelievable that even some who were in concentration camps find it
difficult to comprehend."

Over the years, numerous supposedly reputable historians have promoted the
durable soap story. Journalist-historian William L. Shirer, for example,
repeated it in his best-selling work, The Rise and Fall of the Third
Reich.

Leading Soviet war propagandist Ilya Ehrenburg wrote in his postwar
memoir: "I have held in my hand a cake of soap stamped with the legend
'pure Jewish soap', prepared from the corpses of people who had been
destroyed. But there is no need to speak of these things: thousands of
books have been written about them."

A standard history studies textbook used in Canadian secondary schools,
Canada: The Twentieth Century, told students that the Germans "boiled" the
corpses of their Jewish victims "to make soap." The Anatomy of Nazism, a
booklet published and distributed by the Zionist "Anti-Defamation League"
of B'nai B'rith, stated: "The process of brutalization did not end with
the mass murders themselves. Large quantities of soap were manufactured
from the corpses of those murdered."

A detailed 1981 work, Hitler's Death Camps, repeated the soap story in
lurid detail. While noting that "some historians claim that the Nazi
manufacture of soap from human fat is just a grim rumor," author Konnilyn
Feig nevertheless accepted the story because "most East European camp
scholars...validate the soap stories, and other kinds of bars made from
humans are displayed in Eastern Europe -- I have seen many over the
years."

New York Rabbi Arthur Schneier repeated the tale at the opening ceremony
of the largest Holocaust meeting in history. In his invocation to the
"American Gathering of Jewish Holocaust Survivors," held in Washington in
April 1983, the Rabbi solemnly declared: "We remember the bars of soap
with the initials RJF -- Rein j|disches Fett, Pure Jewish Fat -- made from
the bodies of our loved ones."

In spite of all the apparently impressive evidence, the charge that the
Germans manufactured soap from human beings is a falsehood, as Holocaust
historians are now belatedly acknowledging. The "RIF" soap bar initials
that supposedly stood for "Pure Jewish Fat" actually indicated nothing
more sinister than "Reich Center for Industrial Fat Provisioning"
("Reichsstelle f|r Industrielle Fettversorgung"), a German agency
responsible for wartime production and distribution of soap and washing
products. RIF soap was a poor quality substitute that contained no fat at
all, human or otherwise.

Shortly after the war the public prosecutor's office of Flensburg,
Germany, began legal proceedings against Dr. Rudolf Spanner for his
alleged role in producing human soap at the Danzig Institute. But after an
investigation the charge was quietly dropped. In a January 1968 letter,
the office stated that its inquiry had determined that no soap from human
corpses was made at the Danzig Institute during the war.

More recently, Jewish historian Walter Laqueur "denied established
history" by acknowledging in his 1980 book, The Terrible Secret, that the
human soap story has no basis in reality. Gitta Sereny, another Jewish
historian, noted in her book Into That Darkness: "The universally accepted
story that the corpses were used to make soap and fertilizer is finally
refuted by the generally very reliable Ludwigsburg Central Authority for
Investigation into Nazi Crimes."

Deborah Lipstadt, a professor of modern Jewish history, similarly "rewrote
history" when she confirmed in 1981: "The fact is that the Nazis never
used the bodies of Jews, or for that matter anyone else, for the
production of soap."

In April 1990, professor Yehuda Bauer of Israel's Hebrew University,
regarded as a leading Holocaust historian, as well as Shmuel Krakowski,
archives director of Israel's Yad Vashem Holocaust center, confirmed that
the human soap story is not true. Camp inmates "were prepared to believe
any horror stories about their persecutors," Bauer said. At the same time,
though, he had the chutzpah to blame the legend on "the Nazis."

In fact, blame for the soap story lies rather with individuals such as
Simon Wiesenthal and Stephen Wise, organizations like the World Jewish
Congress, and the victorious Allied powers, none of whom has ever
apologized for promoting this vile falsehood.

Why did Bauer and Krakowski decide that this was the appropriate time to
officially abandon the soap story? Krakowski himself hints that a large
part of the motivation for this "tactical retreat" has been to save what's
left of the sinking Holocaust ship by throwing overboard the most obvious
falsehoods. In the face of the growing Revisionist challenge, easily
demonstrable falsehoods like the soap story have become dangerous
embarrassments because they raise doubts about the entire Holocaust
legend. As Krakowski put it: "Historians have concluded that soap was not
made from human fat. When so many people deny the Holocaust ever happened,
why give them something to use against the truth?"

The bad faith of those making this calculated and belated concession to
truth is shown by their failure to note that the soap myth was
authoritatively "confirmed" at Nuremberg, and by their unwillingness to
deal with the implications of that confirmation for the credibility of the
Tribunal and other supposedly trustworthy authorities in establishing
other, more fundamental aspects of the Holocaust story.

The striking contrast between the prompt postwar disavowal by the British
government of the infamous "human soap" lie of the First World War, and
the way in which a similarly baseless propaganda story from the Second
World War was officially endorsed by the victorious Allied powers and then
authoritatively maintained for so many years not only points up the
dispiriting lack of integrity on the part of so many Western historians,
but underscores the general decline in Western ethical standards during
this century.

The "human soap" story demonstrates anew the tremendous impact that a
wartime rumor, no matter how fantastic, can have once it has taken hold,
particularly when it is disseminated as a propaganda lie by influential
individuals and powerful organizations. That so many intelligent and
otherwise thoughtful people could ever have seriously believed that the
Germans distributed bars of soap brazenly labeled with letters indicating
that they were manufactured from Jewish corpses shows how readily even the
most absurd Holocaust fables can be -- and are -- accepted as fact.

-- 
Greg Raven
mailto:greg.ihr@kaiwan.com
http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr
-----------------------------------------------------
For free information about the IHR, write to:
IHR, P.O. Box 241556, Newport Beach, CA 92659
Journal of Historical Review, $40 (6 issues per year)
The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, by Dr. Arthur Butz, $10 + $2 shipping


Article 19883 of alt.revisionism:
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jews into soap
Date: Sun, 11 Dec 1994 08:38:11 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 12
Message-ID: 
References:  <5e73WjD.declan@delphi.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan009.kaiwan.com

See my posting of the pamphlet "Human Soap" by Mark Weber, elsewhere in
alt.revisionism.

-- 
Greg Raven
mailto:greg.ihr@kaiwan.com
http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr
-----------------------------------------------------
For free information about the IHR, write to:
IHR, P.O. Box 241556, Newport Beach, CA 92659
Journal of Historical Review, $40 (6 issues per year)
The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, by Dr. Arthur Butz, $10 + $2 shipping


Article 19934 of alt.revisionism:
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From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jews into soap
Date: Sun, 11 Dec 1994 13:59:00 -0500
Organization: University of Michigan
Lines: 561
Message-ID: 
References: 
   <5e73WjD.declan@delphi.com>
   
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm005-03.dialip.mich.net

greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) wrote:

> See my posting of the pamphlet "Human Soap" by Mark Weber, elsewhere in
> alt.revisionism.

Mr. Raven!  You're back.

So you _are_ still reading alt.revisionism.  And posting to it, too.

Would you do me the courtesy of responding to my questions about Himmler's
Poznan speeches?  I'll repost them, below, in case you've lost them.

These questions, a summary of the faults in your logic, were posted over
a month ago, on November 9th.

And these are not the only faults which need attending to.  These are
simply the core issues, the problems which you most need to address if
you are to make your case.  There is plenty on the periphery that also
needs answers from you, Mr. Raven, but which I am willing to overlook
so as not to overburden you with trivia.

As I wrote to you on November 15th, when I emailed you a copy of this
November 9th article:

   I have a whole lot of questions for you, and things that I'd like
   you to comment on, that I'm withholding.  I'm trying to prioritize
   things.  And as I see it, the Himmler speeches and their impact on
   your view of revisionism have top priority.
   
   It would help if you would make your intentions clear.  If you
   intend to answer these questions eventually, please let me know so
   I don't give up on you.  If not, please let me know so I can call
   the case closed and get on to something else.
   
   Thank you.

I point out that I have not heard back from you, Mr. Raven, since then.
Do you intend to answer me, or don't you?

Here, for at least the third time, is the "major issues" list.


Newsgroups: misc.test,alt.revisionism
From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie R. McCarthy)
Subject: The major issues which Mr. Raven has not addressed
Message-ID: <1994Nov9.175539.4199@hobbes.kzoo.edu>
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: Wed, 9 Nov 1994 17:55:39 GMT
Lines: 525

There are many issues which Greg Raven has yet to address.

The following are the few of them which I think are important enough to
warrant his immediate attention.

To the reader who's encountering some of these for the first time, it
may appear that I'm picking nits.  My defense to that charge is that
Mr. Raven, by his persistently ambiguous phrasing and pernicious
refusals to pay attention to oft-repeated arguments, is making this
take a hell of a lot longer than it should.

In other words, I'm trying to nail him down, but he keeps squirming
away.  I dislike having to get obsessive about it, but I don't see any
other way to keep him from dodging the issues.  At this point Mr. Raven
and I need to work through them before moving on.  He's painted himself
into a logical corner that's so provocative, he simply mustn't drop it
without explaining himself -- or at least, not if I have anything to
say about it.

That corner is, simply put, the fact that he has asked for a single
piece of evidence that proved the Holocaust.  He probably didn't
think he'd get one.  But he was given Himmler's October 1943 Poznan
speeches, which are a brick wall in the face of Holocaust-denial:
the man said, quote, "'The Jewish people are being exterminated,'
says every Party member, 'it is in our program -- elimination of the
Jews, extermination, will do.'"  Pretty much says it all, doesn't it?

There's not much that a revisionist can do to squirm out of that one,
and Mr. Raven has been forced to do some serious squirming.  I want
to eliminate that, by pinning him down as precisely as possible.

After I summarize the issues, point by point, I will include some text
from articles I've previously posted, to refresh Mr. Raven's memory on
some particular points.

The most-important issues, as I see them, are as follows:

(1)  Setting aside the issue of the _gas chambers_ to address the issue
     of the _policy_ to exterminate European Jewry.

   (a)  Has Mr. Raven indeed admitted that the two issues -- the gas
        chambers and the extermination plan -- _can_ be dealt with
        separately?  (It seems that he has, but I would like this
        stated explicitly.)

   (b)  _Will_ he join me in addressing the issue of the plan before
        turning attention to the issue of the gas chambers?  (If it
        will help, I hereby pledge that, after the issue of the plan
        is settled to our satisfaction, I will eagerly and immediately
        address the issue of the gas chambers.  Mr. Raven need not fear
        that I am running away.)

   (c)  Has he dropped the strawman argument that the gas chambers were
        part of the plan?  If not:

      (1)  Why does he admit that, "regardless" of whether the plan
           existed, the existence of the gas chambers must be proved
           separately?

      (2)  If his position is merely that the gas chambers were not part
           of the Nazis' plan, then he will be surprised to learn that
           every historian in the world agrees with him.  He and the
           historians do disagree on two other, more primary issues:
           the fact that the gas chambers were used to murder people by
           the thousands, and the fact that the Nazis had a plan to
           exterminate European Jewry.  Is he willing to discuss these
           bones of contention, or not?

(2)  Himmler's Poznan speeches.

   (a)  Will Mr. Raven drop the charge of forgery (which he never
        actually raised in the first place)?

   (b)  Does he see that, in order to prove a non-physical entity like
        a "plan" or "policy," the best evidence is certain to be
        non-physical evidence like written or recorded testimony?
        If not:

      (1)  Exactly how would Mr. Raven attempt to prove _any_ "plan or
           policy," other than consulting what the overseers of that
           plan said about it to their underlings?  That is, what
           evidence could be more convincing than a recorded speech,
           in which the Reichsfuehrer-SS explicitly says to the officers
           under him, "the Jewish people will be exterminated, this is
           very obvious, it is in our program"?  (Note that this is not
           a rhetorical question!)

   (c)  Will he admit that the December 15th speech provides little or
        no insight into Himmler's meaning for the October 4th speech?
        If not:

      (1)  How does he explain the similarities of the December 15th
           speech not to the October _4th_ speech, but to the
           October _6th_ speech?

      (2)  Why does he think Himmler's comments in December about
           "Jewish commissars and communists" have any impact on his
           saying, in October, that "das juedische Volk" -- the
           Jewish people as a whole -- were being exterminated?

   (d)  Are there any other arguments which Mr. Raven wishes to raise?

(3)  "Physical evidence."

   (a)  Mr. Raven has stated:  "in order to prove that [Nazis] used gas
        chambers...you must produce one of the gas chambers."

      (1)  Presumably Mr. Raven knows where the gas chambers are.  He is
           also aware of the myriad testimonies about the use to which
           those chambers were put.  Yet he still demands that the gas
           chambers be "produced."  Something's not clicking for him
           between the testimonies about gassing and the rooms in which
           the gassings occurred.  What is this conceptual barrier?
           That is, why does he not accept that (for example) the
           Leichenkeller of Krema II was used to commit mass murder?

      (2)  What exactly does he mean by "produce"?

         (a)  Will he accept a map to the sites of the gas chambers?

         (b)  Will he accept a picture of the (remains of) the gas
              chambers, as they look today?

         (c)  Will he accept blueprints of the gas chambers?

         (d)  If none of the above:  what would he accept?

   (b)  He has stated, many times, that testimony is not evidence.
        His meaning is that only physical evidence is meaningful.

      (1)  Authorities on historiography have been cited to demonstrate
           that he is dead wrong on this point.  Can he cite one
           authority that backs him up?  If not, why should we believe
           him;  what are his qualifications as a historian?



Here is text from articles I've previously posted, explaining my
reasoning on these points.  Unless I'm mistaken, Mr. Raven has neither
responded to nor acknowledged a single word of it:

      --------
      (1)(a-b)
      --------

Greg Raven has seen fit to set aside the question of whether or not
the Nazis used gas chambers in their plan to exterminate European
Jewry.  He agrees that the question of whether or not they planned
to exterminate the Jews can be separated from the question of
whether or not they used gas chambers in the fulfillment of that
plan.

Lest you think I'm making this up, I present his own words:

   To restate my position, regardless of whether the Nazis had a policy
                           ^^^^^^^^^^
   or plan to exterminate the Jews, in order to prove that they used
   gas chambers, you must produce one of the gas chambers that they
   used to commit this crime.

      Greg Raven, 31 Oct 1994 (id AADAEA609668E40B7@greg-ihr.earthlink.net)

Regardless of whether the policy to exterminate Jews generally existed,
the question of whether the gas chambers existed must be answered
separately.  I agree with Mr. Raven completely on this point.

Of course, this cuts both ways.

That is, regardless of whether the _gas chambers_ existed, the question
of the existence of the Nazi _policy_ to exterminate European Jewry
must also be answered separately.

And I think it's best to tackle that question first, for several
reasons.  Of course, the obvious one is that, if there was no plan to
exterminate anyone, then what the hell would gas chambers be used for
anyway?  Almost as obvious is the fact that we've been discussing some
evidence for that plan for quite some time now: Himmler's October 1943
speeches at a little Polish town called Poznan.

      ------
      (1)(c)
      ------

The strawman, in this case, is Mr. Raven's demand that someone
produce evidence that proves that the Nazis had a plan to
exterminate Jews _specifically_ in gas chambers.

He's going to have to wait a long time for that one, because that
_wasn't_ their plan.  Their plan was to kill them however possible,
and, through trial and error, they found out that gas chambers were
the best way to do the job.

And this has been explained to Mr. Raven before, several times.
For example, I put it this way two weeks ago:

   Though gassing did turn out to be the most effective means of
   killing, that was not part of the plan or policy.
   
   To take a more modern example, one might ask whether the U.S.
   Government has a plan or policy to repel a possible Iraqi invasion
   of Kuwait with A-10 "Tank Killer" aircraft.  Certainly the
   government is currently moving against such an invasion.  But that
   particular model of aircraft, though it plays a pivotal role in the
   President's agenda, is nowhere mentioned in the President's
   announcements of our policy toward Iraq.
  
      (Jamie McCarthy, 18 October 1994,
       )

So what does Mr. Raven write to Dr. Keren?

   ...the revisionist position is that no Jews were killed in gas
   chambers as part of a Nazi plan or policy.
   
   Is this the best evidence you have that the Nazis had a plan or
   policy to exterminate the Jews in gas chambers?

Whether or not Mr. Raven will give up this strawman remains to
be seen.  I would hope that at some point he would notice that
people are seeing right through it.  But again, only time will tell.

      --------
      (2)(a-d)
      --------

So, where did we leave off this discussion of the Poznan speeches?

Well, it's a little hard to say, because the discussion got fragmented.
As I recall, Mr. Raven had dropped most of the objections he'd
previously raised.  My recollections could be wrong -- even with the
aid of my archives, it's difficult to figure out exactly what went on.
Though I don't think I'm leaving anything out, I welcome corrections to
my imperfect memory.

Mr. Raven appears to have dropped these three objections:

(1)  That the speeches might be a forgery.

     (Mr. Raven hinted that he might make a case for this, but then
dropped it later.)

(2)  That a later speech by Himmler provided "context" for the October
speeches, showing that Himmler was really talking about shooting Jews,
not gassing them.

     (In the later speech he is specifically talking about Jewish
commissars and communists, not about "das juedische Volk," as he says in
the October speeches.  So this isn't really an argument.  I've
expressed my befuddlement at this logic several times.  When I explained
my reasoning on October 13th and 20th, Mr. Raven had no reply.  If he
wishes to bring this objection up again, he's welcome to do so;  I'll
again post my reasoning at the end of this article, and he may reply to
that.)

(3)  That Himmler's speeches, being speeches, are not evidence.
Rather, they are merely "testimony."

      (I'm not sure what we are supposed to do with this one.  How could
I possibly prove the existence of a "plan or policy," except by
presenting oral or written declarations about it?  Plans and policies
are not solid items.  You can't pick them up, or weigh them, or take
pictures of them. There can be no physical evidence of a policy, except
recorded or written declarations about it -- the only way to document
it is to document what the planners said about it.  Himmler was the
Number Two man in Germany, and he was the one in charge of the Final
Solution. What source could be better?  Again, when I put forth that
reasoning, Mr. Raven had no answer;  again, if he'd like to continue
with this objection, he's welcome to respond to my previous text, which
I'll post at the end of this article.)

And Mr. Raven's final objection was this one:

(4)  That Himmler's Poznan speeches, though they may provide evidence of
a Nazi plan to exterminate European Jewry, do not have any impact on
the existence of a Nazi plan to exterminate European Jewry in _gas
chambers_, because they not specifically mention gas chambers.

And we've agreed, now, to put aside the question of the gas chambers,
so that we may focus solely on the plan to exterminate European Jewry.
This objection, then, is moot.


I look forward to seeing whether Mr. Raven is capable of coming up with
any further objections to the Himmler speeches.  If not, I think we
must assume that he has admitted that the Nazis had a plan to
exterminate European Jewry.  Once we all agree on the existence of the
plan, I'll be happy to move on to the means that they used to carry out
that plan, including the gas chambers, which Mr. Raven seems eager to
discuss.  Indeed, I look forward to moving on -- I'm always looking for
new areas in which to demonstrate that Mr. Raven is being fraudulent
and deceitful.

      ---------
      (2)(b)(1)
      ---------

What evidence does Mr. Raven think there should be?

If he will provide us with a list of evidence that should be there, but
is missing, then his claim will have some merit.  Otherwise, it would
seem that he's merely latched on to an excuse.

I hasten to point out that the reason that I have not provided physical
evidence to contradict Mr. Raven's thesis, is that the thesis' central
concern is the Nazi plan of extermination.  Evidence for a single gas
chamber certainly does not point to a plan -- if I had provided such,
then I'm sure Mr. Raven would be the first to point that out to me!

If his thesis were that the gas chambers did not exist, I would provide
physical evidence (as well as testimony) that they did.

      ---------
      (2)(c)(1)
      ---------

Perhaps I don't understand what you meant by "other versions of the
speech given around that same time."  Is it your claim that Himmler was
giving nearly the same speech, and simply chose to rephrase that part
slightly differently, keeping the same meaning?  If so, you may be
a little confused.  There were two speeches at Poznan, on the 4th and
6th of October.  The excerpt from the December speech you quote sounds a
lot like a section of the October 6th speech, in which he asks "how was
it with the women and children?" and explains that they had to die as
well.  But that's different from the October 4th speech.  And it's the
October 4th speech that I'm quoting:  "'The Jewish people will be
exterminated,' says every Party member, 'this is very obvious, it is in
our program -- elimination of the Jews, extermination, will do.'"
Different versions of the October 6th speech will provide insight as to
nuances of meaning in _that_ speech, of course, but will have no impact
on the October 4th speech.

      ---------
      (2)(c)(2)
      ---------

The snippet you posted from December 1943 was of Himmler talking about
his actions in villages, against what he referred to as "partisans or
Jewish commissars."  He stated that, in these villages, he was killing
the partisans and Jewish commissars down to the women and children.

Now, I guess your claim is that, because Himmler said in December that
he was killing Jewish commissars (and others) in villages, then in
October he could not possibly have been speaking of what was going on
in gas chambers in Auschwitz.  Do I have that right?

If I do, then I really don't see how you expect anyone to buy that.
It simply makes no sense.  Perhaps you could try explaining it again.

Part of the problem may be what you think Himmler meant by "partisans
and Jewish commissars."  Since Himmler explicitly said in October that
they were killing every Jew, then his December speech would only be
relevant if he were referring to Jews as a whole.  But he was not --
he was referring to "Jewish commissars."  Those being a subset of Jews
as a whole.

Now, I'll grant you that the Nazis were trying to exterminate Jewish
commissars, because that follows directly from the fact that they were
trying to exterminate Jews as a whole.  But I don't see how Himmler's
_affirming_ that Jewish commissars were being killed in any way _denies_
that the Jews as a whole were being killed.

Is it your claim that, because the Jewish commissars (and others) were
not being killed in gas chambers, that therefore no Jews were being
killed in gas chambers?  Again, I don't see how you could expect anyone
to buy that;  it makes no sense.

      ------
      (3)(a)
      ------

I still don't understand exactly what you're getting at.

Please be absolutely precise, Mr. Raven.

I must "produce one of the gas chambers"?  Does that mean I have to pick
it up with a crane and drop it at your doorstep?

Presumably not.

And you've already made very plain that you simply will not accept any
spoken or written words by anyone regarding the gas chambers, no matter
who.  Even the commandant of the camp, who clearly explains the gassing
process over and over, is simply not acceptable to you.  You don't want
to see or hear anything that anyone wrote or said.

Well, that limits our options, doesn't it?

Will you allow me to give you a map so you can take a plane, train, and
bus to Auschwitz, and see them for yourself?

Will you allow me to show you pictures of how the gas chambers look today?
Those won't really prove anything -- they're pretty well demolished.

Will you allow me to show you blueprints of the gas chambers?  Granted,
the blueprints don't say "gas chamber" in German across the top;  they
used code words to describe them.  Nevertheless, the blueprints exist.

Will you allow me to show you documents produced during the war, written
by Nazis for Nazis, that describe what's happening in the gas chambers?

And, what would you like to see that's missing from the above list?
What would it take to convince you?

In short:  what exactly do you mean by "produce one of the gas chambers"?

      ------
      (3)(b)
      ------

Mr. Raven, you make two points....

The first is that "things that people said" are not evidence.  This is
rubbish and nonsense.  Have you examined the long article by Chris
Hoover regarding testimony and the historical process?  If so, why do
you reject that oral and written statements are evidence?  If not,
don't you think you owe it to your readers to do so?

      ------
      (3)(b)
      ------

Mr. Raven still is confused about the role that testimony plays in
the historical process.  He still maintains that it is not evidence; 
at one point he asks for "evidence (not testimony, mind you)."

In my earlier message, my comments on this topic were:

   Regarding speeches not being evidence, I have two replies.  The
   first is that, indeed, speeches most certainly are evidence that
   historians use to evaluate what happened at some point in history. 
   Christopher Hoover wrote a marvelous discussion of how historians
   use oral testimony, and he should know.  His father, a professional
   historian, is [one of the authors] of the 1975 book _The Practice
   of Oral History_.

Mr. Raven's response:

   I will agree that "oral history" is a type of history, but it is
   hardly unimpeachable.

Impeachment is the process of bringing to trial.  All evidence is
"tried" by historians, because all evidence is evaluated for its
validity and reliability.  Thus no sort of evidence is "unimpeachable";
it is all "impeached" as a matter of course.

If Mr. Raven has a case to make against oral history, then he should
make it.

He continued:

   I would be more inclined to accept an oral history about something
   of little import, or of something that could not possibly have any
   evidence. However, the construction and use of multiple homicidal
   gas chambers for the destruction of hundreds of thousands of human
   beings cannot be said to be such a trivial matter that no physical
   evidence exists.

He here provides two criteria, one of which must be met before he will
accept testimony.  Why has he chosen these two?  What's his reasoning?
He doesn't offer any.  Perhaps he should read the book co-authored by
Chris Hoover's father, to determine whether real historians use similar
criteria. Mr. Raven has no degree in history, and yet he offers only
his unsupported opinion.  Why should that count more than that of a
historian, let alone four historians, who have years of study,
research, and work in the trenches under their collective belts?

His first criterion for acceptance of oral evidence -- matters of little
import -- is bizarrely interesting.  Why should historians play by one
set of rules for small matters and another for large?  Odd.

It is worth noting the life of Huey Long is hardly of "little import" to
any historian of 20th Century American politics.  And yet, one of the
most significant works on his life, T. Harry Williams' biography, is
based entirely on oral accounts.  In this particular instance, oral
history is the "type of history" that wins Pulitzer Prizes.  It is
further worth noting that to the historian of Indian-White relations in
the 19th century, the Minnesota Sioux War of 1862 is hardly of "little
import."  And yet, hardly a single significant historical work of that
war exists that doesn't rely heavily on oral accounts, and rightly so.
Of course, they also rely heavily on documentary records from federal
officials, Indian Agents, missionaries, etc. -- but many of _them_ are
based on personal impressions as well.  In any event, oral and
documentary evidence do not cancel each other out here -- they can be,
and should be, quite complementary.

Both documentary and physical evidence on the life of Huey Long exist.
The same is true of the Minnesota Sioux War.  By what historiographic
authority would Mr. Raven presume to demand that oral testimony not be
used in researching the historical record regarding these events?  Or,
if he would not make such demands regarding these two issues, then why
is he applying a _different_ standard to the Holocaust?

And his second criterion is telling.  Mr. Raven is saying that he will
not accept testimony unless it regards something "that could not
possibly have any evidence."

Now, of course, there is a fair amount of physical evidence for the gas
chambers.  The best of it, in my opinion, is the simple fact that the
Nazis dynamited the Auschwitz gas chambers as the Russians approached.
Why would they blow them up if they had nothing to hide?  Why blow up
only the homicidal gas chambers, and not anything else at the camp?

But that act of destruction, and the dismantling of the gas chambers
prior, removed most of the physical evidence that was there before.

Does he expect there could possibly be any evidence for the gas
chambers, after they had been blown up?  What about the Reinhard camps'
gas chambers, after they were dismantled?
-- 
 Jamie McCarthy   Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu   AppleLink: j.mccarthy
 "What is wrong with admiring Adolf Hitler?"  - Jack Wikoff


Article 19956 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!news1.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Human Soap
Date: 12 Dec 1994 01:21:30 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 98
Message-ID: <3cgq5a$pjk@access1.digex.net>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net


In article ,
Greg Raven  wrote:
>According to a Polish source quoted in a secret wartime U.S. Army military
>intelligence report, for example, the Germans were operating a "human soap
>factory" in 1941 at Turek, Poland. "The Germans had brought thousands of
>Polish teachers, priests and Jews there and after extracting the blood
>serum from their bodies, had thrown them on large pots and melted off
>grease to make soap," the intelligence report added.

    I find it interesting to see that the first allegation appears not to
have come from a Jewish source.


>After the war the soap story was given important legitimacy at the main
>Nuremberg trial. [...]
>Smirnov quoted at length from an affidavit by Sigmund Mazur, an Institute
>employee, which was accepted as Nuremberg exhibit USSR-197.  It alleged
>that Dr. Rudolf Spanner, the head of the Danzig Institute, had ordered the
>production of soap from corpses in 1943.  According to Mazur's affidavit,
>Dr. Spanner's operation was of interest to high-ranking German officials.
>Education Minister Bernhard Rust and Health Leader Dr. Leonardo Conti, as
>well as professors from other medical institutes, came to witness
>Spanner's efforts.  Mazur also claimed to have used the "human soap" to
>wash himself and his laundry.
>
>A human soap "recipe," allegedly prepared by Dr. Spanner (Nuremberg
>document USSR-196), was also presented. Finally, a sample of what was
>supposed to be a piece of "human soap" was submitted to the Nuremberg
>Tribunal as exhibit USSR-393.

    Of course, Weber is either not bright enough or honest enough to
recognize that the story told by Mazur is significantly different from the
RIF story - above all by being an eyewitness account, but also by being a
laboratory experiment in 1944 rather than mass commercial production in
1942 - and requires separate refutation. 


>A detailed 1981 work, Hitler's Death Camps, repeated the soap story in
>lurid detail.

    Feig, of course, also gives enough information for an honest and
intelligent person to know that there are two separate soap stories, and
refuting the RIF story (for which no real evidence has only been found,
only rumor) does not refute the Mazur testimony (which is first-person,
not rumor). 

    Revisionists have kept claiming that the Mazur testimony is false.  I
have been asking for the refutation of the Mazur testimony for a couple of
months now, and nobody has provided anything.  Thus I am quite interested
in the following paragraph, which is the first time I have ever seen any
claim of evidence related directly to the Danzig Institute story. 


>Shortly after the war the public prosecutor's office of Flensburg,
>Germany, began legal proceedings against Dr. Rudolf Spanner for his
>alleged role in producing human soap at the Danzig Institute. But after an
>investigation the charge was quietly dropped.  In a January 1968 letter,
>the office stated that its inquiry had determined that no soap from human
>corpses was made at the Danzig Institute during the war.

    I would be very interested in obtaining a copy of that letter.  As I
have always said, I have no need to believe in this; rather, in order to
disbelieve sworn testimony I have a need for some actual evidence which
contradicts it.  I will be quite happy to acknowledge that the Danzig
Institute soap story is refuted once I see the documented evidence which
shows that Mazur was lying.  All of the refutation of human-fat soap I
have seen in the past has involved the "RIF" soap. 


>Gitta Sereny, another Jewish historian, noted in her book Into That 
>Darkness: "The universally accepted story that the corpses were used to 
>make soap and fertilizer is finally refuted by the generally very 
>reliable Ludwigsburg Central Authority for Investigation into Nazi Crimes."

    Again, did the Ludwigsburg Authority refute the RIF story, the Mazur
story, or both?  I have no problem if they did; I just want to know what
their reasons were.

    The same goes for all other mentions of refutations of "the" soap
story.  Obviously the refutation of a 1941 or 1942 story about bars of
soap labeled "RIF" cannot serve to refute testimony about events in 1944
and bars of soap not labeled "RIF."  So presumably there must be some
other testimony which refutes Mazur.  I'd just like to know what it is,
and also why I always have such problems getting answers when I ask for
what that refutation consists of?

    If it really exists, why don't the revisionists show it and close the
issue forever, rather than writing in a way which leaves them open to
suspicion that they may be distorting or lying about sources?  Sadly there
have been too many documented examples of revisionists doing exactly that
for me to take this claim of a letter at face value. 

    Surely Greg Raven can see the reasonableness of this request.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


Article 20185 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!sunserver.insinc.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!torn!news.unb.ca!UNBVM1.CSD.UNB.CA
From: Keith Morrison 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: From IHR WWW Site: Was Encampment Justified
Date: 19 DEC 94 06:29:10 AST
Organization: The University of New Brunswick
Lines: 26
Sender: usenet@UNB.CA
Message-ID: <19DEC94.07005256.0046@UNBVM1.CSD.UNB.CA>
References: <3cl5j8$one@sol.sun.csd.unb.ca> <3cm7e6$ed9@quartz.ucs.ualberta.ca> <3cn62f$f73@agate.berkeley.edu> <3cnf8g$e4k@quartz.ucs.ualberta.ca> <3cnfhf$1299@quartz.ucs.ualberta.ca> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: unbvm1.csd.unb.ca

In article  greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) writes:
>
> The file in question is one that someone gave me a couple years ba    ck,
>and I thought that it, while flawed, does make one stop and think.

About what?  That article was located on your homepage (sorry about
the mixup but to most people here Greg Raven=IHR is a valid
equality) with some other material that you apparently endorse,
therefore, without too much of a leap of logic, it would seem that
you endorse it too.

Now, what does it say about you that you *admit you knew it was
flawed* and left it without _any_ sort comment, even a "the
information might be inaccurate in places".  My god, the whole thing
was a piece of drek.  Flawed?  Try idiotic, baseless, even
gawdawful-what-a-moron-roll-on-the-floor-laughing ridiculous.

The only thinking that article promotes is thinking about Greg
Raven's agenda.

--
Keith Morrison
t08o@unb.ca

Why do they attack Mighty Morphin Power Rangers and leave Barney alone?



Article 20190 of alt.revisionism:
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From: Keith Morrison 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Greg's Back! (was Re: Seven Questions)
Date: 19 DEC 94 08:17:48 AST
Organization: The University of New Brunswick
Lines: 16
Sender: usenet@UNB.CA
Message-ID: <19DEC94.08960465.0073@UNBVM1.CSD.UNB.CA>
References: <3cqhpl$6qg@sol.sun.csd.unb.ca> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: unbvm1.csd.unb.ca

In article  greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) writes:

I am so honoured you have answered me.  I would, however, rather you
answer to questions put to you repeatedly since May the 4th, 1994,
in a post that I've seen repeated multiple times since September but
which you seem inevitably to fail answering.  Since you obviously
have the time to answer me, surely you can spare the but few moments
it will take for your vast knowledge and historiographic skills to
reply.

--
Keith Morrison      Winner, Worst Redundant Movie Title:
t08o@unb.ca        "I Was a 16 Year Old Teenage Alien from Outer Space"





Article 20197 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!nntp.club.cc.cmu.edu!casaba.srv.cs.cmu.edu!rochester!rutgers!dziuxsolim.rutgers.edu!uunet!news1.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: From IHR WWW Site: Was Encampment Justified
Date: 19 Dec 1994 09:26:36 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <3d456s$j9l@access4.digex.net>
References: <3cl5j8$one@sol.sun.csd.unb.ca> <3cnfhf$1299@quartz.ucs.ualberta.ca> <15DEC94.15132694.0206@UNBVM1.CSD.UNB.CA> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net

In article ,
Greg Raven  wrote:
>In article <15DEC94.15132694.0206@UNBVM1.CSD.UNB.CA>, Keith Morrison
> wrote:
>[text deleted]
>> Second, it is really from the IHR Web site.
>
>Utterly wrong. The IHR has no Web site. Period.

    As someone else pointed out, the fact that you have 'greg.ihr' as your
                                                              ^^^
logon name, plus your constant ads for IHR materials in your .signature 
file, do give the impression that you speak for the IHR when you post.

    In the Usenet community, there is a tradition of putting a disclaimer 
in one's .signature file to make clear that the views expressed are those 
of the poster personally, not the organization.  Perhaps you should place 
in your .signature file something like the following:

   "The above represents the views of Greg Raven, and is not endorsed by 
the Institute for Historical Review.  All facts contained herein are 
strictly accidental."

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


Article 20200 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!kmcvay
From: kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay)
Subject: Re: Greg's Back! (was Re: Seven Questions)
References: <3cqhpl$6qg@sol.sun.csd.unb.ca>  <19DEC94.08960465.0073@UNBVM1.CSD.UNB.CA>
Organization: The Old Frog's Almanac
Message-ID: <1994Dec21.195757.20767@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 94 19:57:57 GMT

In article <19DEC94.08960465.0073@UNBVM1.CSD.UNB.CA>,
Keith Morrison comments to Mr. Raven:

>I am so honoured you have answered me.  I would, however, rather you
>answer to questions put to you repeatedly since May the 4th, 1994,
>in a post that I've seen repeated multiple times since September but
>which you seem inevitably to fail answering.  

The problem, it would seem, lies with Mr. Raven's myopia. No matter
how often the article (May 4th, 1994) has been published here (at
least a dozen times), or how often it has been emailed to Mr. Raven
(at least twice, with confirmation of receipt), Mr. Raven simply
cannot "find" the article.

I have thought of approaching the CNIB, in the hope that they might
be able to produce a Braille version of the article for us. Even the
LARGE PRINT version seems to be beyond Mr. Raven's visual ability,
but perhaps Braille would do the trick. (Perhaps we should produce a
Talking Book version, and deliver it to Mr. Raven in person, along
with a cassette recorder, so he could address it without having to
strain his eyes.)

By the way, the article in question will be published again, on the
4th. of January - the eighth anniversary, so to speak, of its
original appearance.

Watch for it, Mr. Raven.


-- 

"However, it is sophistry to proclaim that something must have happened a
certain way because your `reason' demands it." (Greg Raven, Institute for
Historical Review)


Article 20230 of alt.revisionism:
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From: smullins@cidmac.ecn.purdue.edu (Scott H Mullins)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: From IHR WWW Site: Was Encampment Justified
Date: 19 Dec 1994 16:07:32 GMT
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network
Lines: 25
Distribution: world,local
Message-ID: <3d4b44$cor@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>
References: <3cnf8g$e4k@quartz.ucs.ualberta.ca> <3cnfhf$1299@quartz.ucs.ualberta.ca> 
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In article  greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) writes:

[del]

>Well, I don't know who Keith Morrison is, but I can assure you that this
>item did not come from the IHR. In case you haven't contacted my home page
>yourself, you should know that my home page is MY home page, not the
>IHR's.

Then you should remove "IHR" from the user id. Otherwise,
it seems fair to assume that either "ihr" is your last name
or is the acronym of a group to which you belong and 
which authorizes your use of their name in conjunction with your
own.

> They do not pay for it, monitor it, condone it, contribute to it,
>etc. The file in question is one that someone gave me a couple years back,
>and I thought that it, while flawed, does make one stop and think.

About the degree of mental instability of anyone who
can take it seriously for more than a nanosecond?

--
Scott
smullins@ecn.purdue.edu


Article 20234 of alt.revisionism:
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: From IHR WWW Site: Was Encampment Justified
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 1994 22:10:47 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 22
Message-ID: 
References: <3cl5j8$one@sol.sun.csd.unb.ca> <3cm7e6$ed9@quartz.ucs.ualberta.ca> <3cn62f$f73@agate.berkeley.edu> <3cnf8g$e4k@quartz.ucs.ualberta.ca> <3cnfhf$1299@quartz.ucs.ualberta.ca>
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In article <3cnfhf$1299@quartz.ucs.ualberta.ca>,
jmorris@gpu2.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:

> Well, I checked; it came from Keith's account.  So unless Keith is 
> pulling our legs, this is a real article from IHR.

Well, I don't know who Keith Morrison is, but I can assure you that this
item did not come from the IHR. In case you haven't contacted my home page
yourself, you should know that my home page is MY home page, not the
IHR's. They do not pay for it, monitor it, condone it, contribute to it,
etc. The file in question is one that someone gave me a couple years back,
and I thought that it, while flawed, does make one stop and think.

-- 
Greg Raven
mailto:greg.ihr@kaiwan.com
http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr
-----------------------------------------------------
For free information about the IHR, write to:
IHR, P.O. Box 241556, Newport Beach, CA 92659
Journal of Historical Review, $40 (6 issues per year)
The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, by Dr. Arthur Butz, $10 + $2 shipping


Article 20235 of alt.revisionism:
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: From IHR WWW Site: Was Encampment Justified
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 1994 22:12:09 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 16
Message-ID: 
References: <3cl5j8$one@sol.sun.csd.unb.ca> <3cm7e6$ed9@quartz.ucs.ualberta.ca> <3cn62f$f73@agate.berkeley.edu> <3cnf8g$e4k@quartz.ucs.ualberta.ca> <3cnfhf$1299@quartz.ucs.ualberta.ca> <15DEC94.15132694.0206@UNBVM1.CSD.UNB.CA>
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In article <15DEC94.15132694.0206@UNBVM1.CSD.UNB.CA>, Keith Morrison
 wrote:
[text deleted]
> Second, it is really from the IHR Web site.

Utterly wrong. The IHR has no Web site. Period.

-- 
Greg Raven
mailto:greg.ihr@kaiwan.com
http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr
-----------------------------------------------------
For free information about the IHR, write to:
IHR, P.O. Box 241556, Newport Beach, CA 92659
Journal of Historical Review, $40 (6 issues per year)
The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, by Dr. Arthur Butz, $10 + $2 shipping


Article 20236 of alt.revisionism:
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Seven Questions for a Revisionist that we'd love to see answered
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 1994 22:22:38 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 70
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References: <3cqhpl$6qg@sol.sun.csd.unb.ca>
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In article <3cqhpl$6qg@sol.sun.csd.unb.ca>, t08o@leda.sun.csd.unb.ca
(Keith Morrison) wrote:

> Seven Questions for a Revisionist
> 
> 
> 1. Do you believe that the Nazi government of Germany was responsibe
>    for the deaths of several million people through the use of, but 
>    not restricted to, starvation, shooting, lethal injection and gas 
>    chambers?

No.

> 2. Do you believe that the Soviet government was responsible for the
>    deaths of an undetermined number of civilians within its own borders
>    through the use of, but not restricted to, starvation and shooting?

Yes.
 
> 3. Do you believe that the government of China was responsible for the
>    deaths of an undetermined number of civilians within its own borders
>    through the use of, but not restricted to, starvation and shooting?

Yes.

> 4. If you answered "yes" to any or all of questions 1, 2 and 3, would it
>    be fair to say that you believe that governments are capable of such
>    crimes?

Yes.

> 5. If you answered "no" to all of questions 1, 2 and 3, why do you believe
>    that _all_ of these events did not happen?

n/a

> 6. If you answered "no" to question 4, how do you explain your belief in
>    the existance of such events with your conviction such events are not
>    possible?

n/a

> 7. If you answered "no" to question 1 and "yes" to question 4 and either
>    or both of questions 2 and 3, why do you disagree with established 
>    history that says the events in question took place _and_ your belief 
>    that other, similar, crimes are possible and have happened?

This question conflates different topics. First, historiography is not
fact. Historiography is what we humans say about what has happened in the
past. We can be wrong, and when we determine that we have been wrong, we
must correct those wrongs. Sometimes, political and other pressures stand
between more accurate accounts of the past and the commonly accepted ones.
These pressures do not change what happened, only what is commonly said.
Revisionists have investigated many "Holocaust" claims and found them to
be exaggerated or just plain false. It may not be polite to point out
these errors, but that does not make the errors somehow truthful.

Second, the wording of your first question is substantively different from
the wording of questions two and three. Your question seven implies
equivalence where there is none.

-- 
Greg Raven
mailto:greg.ihr@kaiwan.com
http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr
-----------------------------------------------------
For free information about the IHR, write to:
IHR, P.O. Box 241556, Newport Beach, CA 92659
Journal of Historical Review, $40 (6 issues per year)
The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, by Dr. Arthur Butz, $10 + $2 shipping


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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: address for www site? where?
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 1994 22:25:41 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 19
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References: 
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In article , jwatson@jill.reno.nv.us
(Jerry Watson) wrote:

> What is the address for the IHR WWW site?

There is no IHR Web site, but you will find some IHR materials at my Web
site, which is:

http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr

-- 
Greg Raven
mailto:greg.ihr@kaiwan.com
http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr
-----------------------------------------------------
For free information about the IHR, write to:
IHR, P.O. Box 241556, Newport Beach, CA 92659
Journal of Historical Review, $40 (6 issues per year)
The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, by Dr. Arthur Butz, $10 + $2 shipping


Article 20238 of alt.revisionism:
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Auschwitz Myths and Facts
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 1994 22:28:13 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
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Auschwitz: Myths and Facts

by Mark Weber

Nearly everyone has heard of Auschwitz, the German concentration camp
where great numbers of Jews and others were reportedly exterminated in gas
chambers during the Second World War.

Auschwitz is widely regarded as the most terrible Nazi extermination
center. This image, however, cannot be reconciled with the facts.
Scholars challenge Holocaust story

Astonishing as it may seem, more and more historians and engineers have
been challenging the widely accepted Auschwitz story. These "revisionist"
scholars do not dispute the fact that large numbers of Jews were deported
to the camp, or that many died there, particularly of typhus and other
diseases. But the compelling evidence they present shows that Auschwitz
was not an extermination center and that the story of mass killings in
"gas chambers" is a myth.

The Auschwitz camps

The Auschwitz camp complex was set up in 1940 in what is now south-central
Poland. Large numbers of Jews were deported there between 1942 and
mid-1944.

The main camp was known as Auschwitz I. Birkenau, or Auschwitz II, was
supposedly the main extermination center, and Monowitz, or Auschwitz III,
was a large industrial center where gasoline was produced from coal. In
addition there were dozens of smaller satellite camps devoted to the war
economy.

Four Million Victims?

At the postwar Nuremberg Tribunal, the Allies charged that the Germans
exterminated four million people at Auschwitz. This figure, which was
invented by the Soviets, was uncritically accepted for many years. It
often appeared in major American newspapers and magazines, for example.
(note 1)

Today no reputable historian, not even those who generally accept the
extermination story, believes this figure. Israeli Holocaust historian
Yehuda Bauer said in 1989 that it is time to finally acknowledge the
familiar four million figure is a deliberate myth. In July 1990 the
Auschwitz State Museum in Poland, along with Israel's Yad Vashem Holocaust
Center, suddenly announced that altogether perhaps one million people
(both Jews and non-Jews) died there. Neither institution would say how
many of these people were killed, nor were any estimates given of the
numbers of those supposedly gassed. (note 2)

One prominent Holocaust historian, Gerald Reitlinger, has estimated that
perhaps 700,000 or so Jews perished at Auschwitz. While even these lower
figures are incorrect, they show how the Auschwitz story has changed
drastically over the years.

Bizarre Tales

At one time it was seriously claimed that Jews were systematically
electrocuted at Auschwitz. American newspapers, citing a Soviet eyewitness
report from liberated Auschwitz, told readers in February 1945 that the
methodical Germans had killed Jews there using an "electric conveyor belt
on which hundreds of persons could be electrocuted simultaneously [and]
then moved on into furnaces. They were burned almost instantly, producing
fertilizer for nearby cabbage fields." (note 3)

And at the Nuremberg Tribunal, chief U.S. prosecutor Robert Jackson
charged that the Germans used a "newly invented" device to instantaneously
"vaporize" 20,000 Jews near Auschwitz "in such a way that there was no
trace left of them." (note 4) No reputable historian now accepts either of
these fanciful tales.

The Hoess "Confession"

A key Holocaust document is the "confession" of former Auschwitz
commandant Rudolf Hoess of April 5, 1946, which was submitted by the U.S.
prosecution at the main Nuremberg trial. (note 5)

Although it is still widely cited as solid proof for the Auschwitz
extermination story, it is actually a false statement that was obtained by
torture.

Many years after the war, British military intelligence sergeant Bernard
Clarke described how he and five other British soldiers tortured the
former commandant to obtain his "confession." Hoess himself privately
explained his ordeal in these words: "Certainly, I signed a statement that
I killed two and half million Jews. I could just as well have said that it
was five million Jews. There are certain methods by which any confession
can be obtained, whether it is true or not." (note 6)

Even historians who generally accept the Holocaust extermination story now
acknowledge that many of the specific statements made in the Hoess
"affidavit" are simply not true. For one thing, no serious scholar now
claims that anything like two and a half or three million people perished
in Auschwitz.

The Hoess "affidavit" further alleges that Jews were already being
exterminated by gas in the summer of 1941 at three other camps: Belzec,
Treblinka and Wolzek. The "Wolzek" camp mentioned by Hoess is a total
invention. No such camp existed, and the name is no longer mentioned in
Holocaust literature. Moreover, the story these days by those who believe
in the Holocaust legend is that gassings of Jews did not begin at
Auschwitz, Treblinka, or Belzec until sometime in 1942.

No Documentary Evidence

Many thousands of secret German documents dealing with Auschwitz were
confiscated after the war by the Allies. Not a single one refers to a
policy or program of extermination. In fact, the extermination story
cannot be reconciled with the documentary evidence.

Many Jewish Inmates Unable to Work

For example, it is often claimed that all Jews at Auschwitz who were
unable to work were immediately killed. Jews who were too old, young,
sick, or weak were supposedly gassed on arrival, and only those who could
be worked to death were temporarily kept alive.

But the evidence shows that, in fact, a very high percentage of the Jewish
inmates were not able to work, and were nevertheless not killed. For
example, an internal German telex message dated Sept. 4, 1943, from the
chief of the Labor Allocation department of the SS Economic and
Administrative Main Office (WVHA), reported that of 25,000 Jewish inmates
in Auschwitz, only 3,581 were able to work, and that all of the remaining
Jewish inmates -- some 21,500, or about 86 percent -- were unable to work.
(note 7)

This is also confirmed in a secret report dated April 5, 1944, on
"security measures in Auschwitz" by Oswald Pohl, head of the SS
concentration camp system, to SS chief Heinrich Himmler. Pohl reported
that there was a total of 67,000 inmates in the entire Auschwitz camp
complex, of whom 18,000 were hospitalized or disabled. In the Auschwitz II
camp (Birkenau), supposedly the main extermination center, there were
36,000 inmates, mostly female, of whom "approximately 15,000 are unable to
work." (note 8)

These two documents simply cannot be reconciled with the Auschwitz
extermination story.

The evidence shows that Auschwitz-Birkenau was established primarily as a
camp for Jews who were not able to work, including the sick and elderly,
as well as for those who were temporarily awaiting assignment to other
camps. That's the considered view of Dr. Arthur Butz of Northwestern
University, who also says that this was the reason for the unusually high
death rate there. (note 9)

Princeton University history professor Arno Mayer, who is Jewish,
acknowledges in a recent book about the "final solution" that more Jews
perished at Auschwitz as a result of typhus and other "natural" causes
than were executed. (note 10)

Anne Frank

Perhaps the best known Auschwitz inmate was Anne Frank, who is known
around the world for her famous diary. But few people know that thousands
of Jews, including Anne and her father, Otto Frank, "survived" Auschwitz.

The 15-year-old girl and her father were deported from the Netherlands to
Auschwitz in September 1944. Several weeks later, in the face of the
advancing Soviet army, Anne was evacuated along with many other Jews to
the Bergen-Belsen camp, where she died of typhus in March 1945.

Her father came down with typhus in Auschwitz and was sent to the camp
hospital to recover. He was one of thousands of sick and feeble Jews who
were left behind when the Germans abandoned the camp in January 1945,
shortly before it was overrun by the Soviets. He died in Switzerland in
1980.

If the German policy had been to kill Anne Frank and her father, they
would not have survived Auschwitz. Their fate, tragic though it was,
cannot be reconciled with the extermination story.

Allied Propaganda

The Auschwitz gassing story is based in large part on the hearsay
statements of former Jewish inmates who did not personally see any
evidence of extermination. Their beliefs are understandable, because
rumors about gassings at Auschwitz were widespread.

Allied planes dropped large numbers of leaflets, written in Polish and
German, on Auschwitz and the surrounding areas which claimed that people
were being gassed in the camp. The Auschwitz gassing story, which was an
important part of the Allied wartime propaganda effort, was also broadcast
to Europe by Allied radio stations. (note 11)

Survivor Testimony

Former inmates have confirmed that they saw no evidence of extermination
at Auschwitz.

An Austrian woman, Maria Vanherwaarden, testified about her camp
experiences in a Toronto District Court in March 1988. She was interned in
Auschwitz-Birkenau in 1942 for having sexual relations with a Polish
forced laborer. On the train trip to the camp, a Gypsy woman told her and
the others that they would all be gassed at Auschwitz.

Upon arrival, Maria and the other women were ordered to undress and go
into a large concrete room without windows to take a shower. The terrified
women were sure that they were about to die. But then, instead of gas,
water came out of the shower heads.

Auschwitz was no vacation center, Maria confirmed. She witnessed the death
of many fellow inmates by disease, particularly typhus, and quite a few
committed suicide. But she saw no evidence at all of mass killings,
gassings, or of any extermination program. (note 12)

A Jewish woman named Marika Frank arrived at Auschwitz-Birkenau from
Hungary in July 1944, when 25,000 Jews were supposedly gassed and cremated
daily. She likewise testified after the war that she heard and saw nothing
of "gas chambers" during the time she was interned there. She heard the
gassing stories only later. (note 13)

Inmates Released

Auschwitz internees who had served their sentences were released and
returned to their home countries. If Auschwitz had actually been a top
secret extermination center, the Germans would certainly not have released
inmates who "knew" what was happening in the camp. (note 14)

Himmler Orders Death Rate Reduced

In response to the deaths of many inmates due to disease, especially
typhus, the German authorities responsible for the camps ordered firm
counter-measures.

The head of the SS camp administration office sent a directive dated Dec.
28, 1942, to Auschwitz and the other concentration camps. It sharply
criticized the high death rate of inmates due to disease, and ordered that
"camp physicians must use all means at their disposal to significantly
reduce the death rate in the various camps." Furthermore, it ordered:

The camp doctors must supervise more often than in the past the nutrition
of the prisoners and, in cooperation with the administration, submit
improvement recommendations to the camp commandants... The camp doctors
are to see to it that the working conditions at the various labor places
are improved as much as possible.

Finally, the directive stressed that "the Reichsfuehrer SS [Heinrich
Himmler] has ordered that the death rate absolutely must be reduced."
(note 15)

German Camp Regulations

Official German camp regulations make clear that Auschwitz was not an
extermination center. They ordered:

The new arrivals in the camp have to be examined carefully. Those
suspected should immediately be put into the camp hospital and kept there
for observation.

Prisoners asking for medical treatment should be brought before the camp
doctor that same day to be examined.

The camp doctor should regularly check how the food is prepared and its
quality. Any shortcomings should immediately be brought to the attention
of the camp commandant. Special care should be given to the treatment of
accidents, so as to avoid impairment of the prisoners' ability to earn
their living. Prisoners who are to be set free or transferred from the
camp should be brought before the camp physician for medical examination.
(note 16)

Telltale Aerial Photos

Detailed aerial reconnaissance photographs taken of Auschwitz-Birkenau on
several random days in 1944 (during the height of the alleged
extermination period there) were made public by the CIA in 1979. They show
no trace of the piles of corpses, smoking crematory chimneys or masses of
Jews awaiting death which have been alleged and which would have been
clearly visible if Auschwitz had indeed been an extermination center.
(note 17)

Absurd Cremation Claims

Cremation specialists have confirmed that thousands of corpses could not
possibly have been cremated every day throughout the spring and summer of
1944 at Auschwitz, as commonly alleged.

For example, Mr. Ivan Lagace, manager of a large crematory in Calgary,
Canada, testified in court in April 1988 that the Auschwitz cremation
story is technically impossible. The allegation that 10,000 or even 20,000
corpses were burned every day at Auschwitz in the summer of 1944 in
crematories and open pits is simply "preposterous" and "beyond the realm
of reality," he declared under oath. (note 18)

Gassing Expert Refutes Extermination Story

America's leading gas chamber expert, Boston engineer Fred A. Leuchter,
carefully examined the supposed "gas chambers" in Poland and concluded
that the Auschwitz gassing story is absurd and technically impossible.

Leuchter is the foremost specialist on the design and installation of gas
chambers used in the United States to execute convicted criminals. For
example, he designed a gas chamber facility for the Missouri state
penitentiary.

In February 1988 he carried out a detailed on-site examination of the "gas
chambers" at Auschwitz, Birkenau and Majdanek in Poland, which are either
still standing or only partially in ruins. In sworn testimony to a Toronto
court and in a technical report, Leuchter described every aspect of his
investigation.

He concluded by emphatically declaring that the alleged gassing facilities
could not possibly have been used to kill people. Among other things, he
pointed out that the so-called "gas chambers" were not properly sealed or
vented to kill human beings without also killing German camp personnel.
(note 19)

Dr. William B. Lindsey, a research chemist employed for 33 years by the
Dupont Corporation, likewise testified in a 1985 court case that the
Auschwitz gassing story is technically impossible. Based on a careful
on-site examination of the "gas chambers" at Auschwitz, Birkenau and
Majdanek, and on his years of experience, he declared: "I have come to the
conclusion that no one was willfully or purposefully killed with Zyklon B
[hydrocyanic acid gas] in this manner. I consider it absolutely
impossible." (note 20)

Conclusion

The Auschwitz extermination story originated as wartime propaganda. Now,
more than 40 years after the end of the Second World War, it's time to
take another, more objective look at this highly polemicized chapter of
history. The Auschwitz legend is the core of the Holocaust story. If
hundreds of thousands of Jews were not systematically killed there, as
alleged, one of the great myths of our time collapses.

Artificially maintaining the hatreds and passions of the past prevents
genuine reconciliation and lasting peace. Revisionism promotes historical
awareness and international understanding. That's why the work of the
Institute for Historical Review is so important and deserves your support.

Notes

1. Nuremberg document 008-USSR. IMT blue series, Vol. 39, pp. 241, 261.;
NC&A red series, vol. 1, p. 35; C.L. Sulzberger, "Oswiecim Killings Placed
at 4,000,000," New York Times, May 8, 1945, and, New York Times, Jan. 31,
1986, p. A4.

2. Y. Bauer, "Fighting the Distortions," Jerusalem Post (Israel), Sept.
22, 1989; "Auschwitz Deaths Reduced to a Million,," Daily Telegraph
(London), July 17, 1990; "Poland Reduces Auschwitz Death Toll Estimate to
1 Million," The Washington Times, July 17, 1990.

3. Washington (DC) Daily News, Feb. 2, 1945, pp. 2, 35. (United Press
dispatch from Moscow).

4. IMT blue series, Vol. 16, p. 529-530. (June 21, 1946).

5. Nuremberg document 3868-PS (USA-819). IMT blue series, Vol. 33, pp. 275-279.

6. Rupert Butler, Legions of Death (England: 1983), pp. 235; R. Faurisson,
Journal of Historical Review, Winter 1986-87, pp. 389-403.

7. Archives of the Jewish Historical Institute of Warsaw, German document
No. 128, in: H. Eschwege, ed., Kennzeichen J (East Berlin: 1966), p. 264.

8. Nuremberg document NO-021. NMT green series, Vol. 5. pp. 384-385.

9. Arthur Butz, Hoax of the Twentieth Century (Costa Mesa, Calif.), p. 124.

10. Arno Mayer, Why Did the Heavens Not Darken?: The "Final Solution" in
History (Pantheon, 1989), p. 365.

11. Nuremberg document NI-11696. NMT green series, Vol. 8, p. 606.

12. Testimony in Toronto District Court, March 28, 1988. Toronto Star,
March 29, 1988, p. A2.

13. Sylvia Rothchild, ed., Voices from the Holocaust (New York: 1981), pp.
188-191.

14. Walter Laqueur, The Terrible Secret (Boston: 1981), p. 169.

15. Nuremberg document PS-2171, Annex 2. NC&A red series, Vol. 4, pp. 833-834.

16. "Lagerordnung fur die Konzentrationslager." Made public in 1962 by
former Auschwitz-Birkenau inmate Prof. Jan Olbrycht. English translation
published in Anthology, Inhuman Medicine, Vol. 1, Part 1, Warsaw:
International Auschwitz Committee, 1970, pp. 149-151.

17. Dino A. Brugioni and Robert C. Poirier, The Holocaust Revisited,
Washington, DC: Central Intelligence Agency, 1979.

18. Canadian Jewish News (Toronto), April 14, 1988, p. 6.

19. The Leuchter Report: An Engineering Report on the Alleged Execution
Gas Chambers at Auschwitz, Birkenau and Majdanek. Toronto: 1988. Available
for $17.00, postpaid, from the IHR.

20. The Globe and Mail (Toronto), Feb. 12, 1985, p. M3.

MARK WEBER is editor of the Journal of Historical Review, published by the
Institute for Historical Review. He studied history at the University of
Illinois (Chicago), the University of Munich, Portland State University,
and Indiana University (M.A., 1977). For five days in March 1988, he
testified as an expert witness on the "final solution" and the Holocaust
issue in a Toronto District Court case. His many articles, reviews and
essays on modern European history have appeared in various scholarly
journals and other periodicals.

Send $2.00 for a packet of literature and a full listing of books. Or,
order more copies of this leaflet, postpaid, at the following prices:

10 copies: $2 -- 50 copies: $5
100 copies or more: 8 cents each

INSTITUTE FOR HISTORICAL REVIEW
Post Office Box 2739
Newport Beach, California 92659

-- 
Greg Raven
mailto:greg.ihr@kaiwan.com
http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr
-----------------------------------------------------
For free information about the IHR, write to:
IHR, P.O. Box 241556, Newport Beach, CA 92659
Journal of Historical Review, $40 (6 issues per year)
The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, by Dr. Arthur Butz, $10 + $2 shipping


Article 20246 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Auschwitz Myths and Facts
Date: 19 Dec 1994 07:11:24 GMT
Organization: Brown University
Lines: 78
Message-ID: <3d3bms$1v5@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu

Greg Raven  wrote:

Perhaps, before we go into this, IHR employee and Hitler admirer
Greg Raven can tell us why Auschwitz had 5 large crematoriums,
with 52 cremation furnaces?

Why does a "work camp" have 52 large cremation furnaces? The
"revisionists" don't deny this fact. Can they explain it? 

# Astonishing as it may seem, more and more historians and engineers have
# been challenging the widely accepted Auschwitz story. 

"Engineers" like Fred Leuchter, who has a BA in the humanities. It's
hard to believe that Raven continues to make a fool of himself by
posting this old garbage. Leuchter was exposed as a liar, his
incredibly stupid "report" completely demolished, and Raven goes
on posting this tired old crap. Incredible, just incredible.

# more and more historians

"Historians" like Dietlib Felderer, who writes at length about the
"anal complex of the Jews", and various other crackpots who have
no credentials and no reputation as historians.

# A key Holocaust document is the "confession" of former Auschwitz
# commandant Rudolf Hoess of April 5, 1946, which was submitted by the U.S.
# prosecution at the main Nuremberg trial. (note 5)

As noted here a thousand times, a much more important source is
Hoess' detailed autobiography. 

# Many thousands of secret German documents dealing with Auschwitz were
# confiscated after the war by the Allies. Not a single one refers to a
# policy or program of extermination. 

Numerous such documents are posted here, including some detailing
the gassing process. 

# For example, an internal German telex message dated Sept. 4, 1943, from 
# the chief of the Labor Allocation department of the SS Economic and
# Administrative Main Office (WVHA), reported that of 25,000 Jewish inmates
# in Auschwitz, only 3,581 were able to work, and that all of the remaining
# Jewish inmates -- some 21,500, or about 86 percent -- were unable to work.

What happened to them? 

# The head of the SS camp administration office sent a directive dated Dec.
# 28, 1942, to Auschwitz and the other concentration camps. It sharply
# criticized the high death rate of inmates due to disease, and ordered that
# "camp physicians must use all means at their disposal to significantly
# reduce the death rate in the various camps." 

Meant specifically for work camps, not extermination camps. There
are other such documents, in which leading Nazis complain that too
many Jews who can be used for work are being murdered:

Order by Reichskommissar Lohse to halt the killing of Jewish skilled
workers, December 2 1941
[Documents on the Holocaust - Edited by Y. Arad, Y. Gutman, A. Margaliot,
NY, Ktav Pub. House in Association with Yad-Vashem, 1981, p. 396]
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Reichskommissar for Ostland                 Riga, December 2 1941
IIa diary No. 220/41g
 
The Chief Quartermaster (Chiefintendant) of the Wehrmacht Command in
Ostland has lodged a complaint that armament plants and repair
workshops have been deprived of Jewish skilled workers through
their liquidation, and that they cannot be replaced there at the
present time.
 
I request most emphatically that the liquidation of Jews employed
as skilled workers in armament plants and repair workshops of the
Wehrmacht who cannot be replaced by local personnel be prevented.
 



-Danny Keren.


Article 20247 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Auschwitz Myths and Facts
Date: 19 Dec 1994 07:11:51 GMT
Organization: Brown University
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <3d3bnn$1vd@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu

From the statement of Hans Stark, registrar of new arrivals, Auschwitz:
[Quoted in "'The Good Old Days'" - E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The 
Free Press, NY, 1988, p. 255].
--------------------------------------------------------------
At another, later gassing -- also in autumn 1941 -- Grabner* ordered
me to pour Zyklon B into the opening because only one medical orderly
had shown up. During a gassing Zyklon B had to be poured through both
openings of the gas-chamber room at the same time. This gassing was
also a transport of 200-250 Jews, once again men, women and children.
As the Zyklon B -- as already mentioned -- was in granular form, it
trickled down over the people as it was being poured in. They then
started to cry out terribly for they now knew what was happening to
them. I did not look through the opening because it had to be closed
as soon as the Zyklon B had been poured in. After a few minutes there
was silence. After some time had passed, it may have been ten to
fifteen minutes, the gas chamber was opened. The dead lay
higgledy-piggedly all over the place. It was a dreadful sight.

   * Maximillian Grabner, Head of Political Department, Auschwitz


Article 20248 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Auschwitz Myths and Facts
Date: 19 Dec 1994 07:13:14 GMT
Organization: Brown University
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <3d3bqa$20a@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu

Testimony of SS private Boeck:
[Extracted from "Der Auschwitz Prozess", by Hermann Langbein,
Vol. I, quoted in "Auschwitz: Technique and operation of the gas 
chambers - J.C Pressac, the Beate Klarsfeld Foundation, NY, 1989,
p. 181].
------------------------------------------------------------------
Q: were you present at a gassing operation one day?

A: Yes, it was one evening. I accompanied the driver Hoeblinger. A
   transport had arrived from Holland and the prisoners had to
   jump from the wagons. They were well-off Jews. There were
   women with Persian furs. They arrived by express train. The
   trucks were already there, with wooden steps before them, and
   the people climbed aboard. Then they all started off. In the
   place Birkenau once stood, there was only a long farmhouse
   (Bunker 2) and beside it four or five big huts. Inside, the
   people were standing on clothes which were building up on
   the floor. The block leader and the sergeant, carrying a cane,
   were there. Hoeblinger said to me 'lets go over there now'. There
   was a sign 'to disinfection'. He said 'you see, they are bringing
   children now'. They opened the door, threw the children in
   and closed the door. There was a terrible cry. A member of the
   SS climbed on the roof. The people went on crying for about
   ten minutes. Then the prisoners opened the doors. Everything
   was in disorder and contorted. Heat was given off. the bodies
   were loaded on a rough wagon and taken to a ditch. The next 
   batch were already undressing in the huts. After that I didn't
   look at my wife for four weeks.




-Danny Keren.




Article 20249 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Auschwitz Myths and Facts
Date: 19 Dec 1994 07:13:32 GMT
Organization: Brown University
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <3d3bqs$20q@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu

SS-Doctor Kremer about his days at Auschwitz: 
[Quoted in 'The Good Old Days' - E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The 
Free Press, NY, 1988, p. 258].
-------------------------------------------------------------------
I remember I once took part in the gassing of one of these groups
of women [from the women's camp in Auschwitz]. I cannot say how
big the group was. when I got close to the bunker I saw them
sitting on the ground. They were still clothed. As they were
wearing worn-out camp clothing they were not left in the undressing
hut but made to undress in the open air. I concluded from the
behavior of these women that they had no doubt what fate awaited
them, as they begged and sobbed to the SS men to spare them their
lives. However, they were herded into the gas chambers and gassed.
As an anatomist I have seen a lot of terrible things: I had had
a lot of experience with dead bodies, and yet what I saw that
day was like nothing I had ever seen before. Still completely
shocked by what I had seen I wrote on my diary on 5 September 
1942: "The most dreadful of horrors. Hauptscharfuehrer Thilo was
right when he said to me today that this is the 'anus mundi', the
anal orifice of the world". I used this image because I could not
imagine anything more disgusting and horrific.


Article 20250 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Auschwitz Myths and Facts
Date: 19 Dec 1994 07:14:06 GMT
Organization: Brown University
Lines: 94
Message-ID: <3d3bru$20s@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu

Testimony of Dr. Hans W. Muench 
[Quoted in "Trials of War Criminals Before the Nuernberg Military 
Tribunals" - Washington, U.S Govt. Print. Off., 1949-1953, Vol.
VIII, p. 313-321]
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Q. What was your first impression of Auschwitz when you arrived?

A. I had already heard about extermination camps, and particularly
   extermination camps for Jews, through reports over the Swiss radio
   that I listened to regularly in the preceding years, but since I
   considered this news to be propaganda, I did not believe it at the
   time, because the facts that were being described seemed too 
   terribly outrageous to me. When I arrived in Auschwitz, and had to
   convince myself personally that these reports were not exaggerated, 
   I was very much shaken emotionally.
 
 .
 .
 .


Q. Mr. witness, you were informed about the fact that human beings were
   gassed at Auschwitz?

A. Yes.

 .
 .
 .

Q. Mr. witness, for what reason did you not spread the fact that human
   beings were being gassed and exterminated?

A. I was asked this very often and also before the Supreme Court of 
   Cracow, and I can say in answer to it that that would have been a 
   completely useless undertaking which would have very shortly caused 
   me and my family to be liquidated very quickly, because the Gestapo 
   was so well organized and the threats for nonobservance of the 
   secrecy that surrounded the Auschwitz exterminations were so clearly 
   worded for members of the SS that everybody avoided telling even his 
   closest friend about it, because experience taught us that anybody 
   who talked about it in any way was very quickly found because the 
   Gestapo sniffed out every rumor very consistently that spread about 
   Auschwitz.

 .
 .
 .

Q. Mr. witness, what would you say if someone visited a plant in
   Auschwitz twice or three times a year for a period of one or two
   days? Would he then have to gain knowledge about these things?

A. I repeatedly witnessed guided tours of civilians and also of
   commissions of the Red Cross and other parties within the camp,
   and I was able to ascertain that the camp leadership arranged it
   masterfully to conduct these guided tours in such a way that the 
   people being guided around did not see anything about inhuman
   treatment. The main camp was shown only and in this main camp there
   were so-called show blocks, particularly block 13, that were
   especially prepared for such guided tours and that were equipped 
   like a normal soldier's barracks with beds that had sheets on them, 
   and well-functioning washrooms. 

 .
 .
 .

Q. Mr. witness, did you personally ever witness the gassing of human
   beings?

A. Yes, I saw one gassing at one time.

 .
 .
 .

Q. Mr. witness, you testified a little earlier that those who were sick
   in the camps, like in concentration camp Monowitz, would be sent to
   Auschwitz-Birkenau, but I wasn't quite clear as to why they were 
   sent to Auschwitz-Birkenau. I'd like to put just a question or two 
   to you on that. Mr. witness, those people who were in the hospital 
   at Monowitz and were shipped to Auschwitz-Birkenau because of an
   edema or phlegmon, for what purpose were they shipped to Birkenau?

A. As far as these people were Jews, I must state that most of them
   were gassed.


Q. And, Mr. witness, if they were sent from the hospital in Monowitz to
   Auschwitz-Birkenau, and they were Jews; and they were sent because 
   of weakness and collapse, why were they sent to Birkenau?

A. Also to be gassed.


Article 20260 of alt.revisionism:
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From: schultz@garnet.berkeley.edu (Richard Schultz)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: From IHR WWW Site: Was Encampment Justified
Date: 20 Dec 1994 12:42:00 GMT
Organization: Philosophers of the Dangerous Maybe
Lines: 15
Message-ID: <3d6jeo$n4p@agate.berkeley.edu>
References: <3cl5j8$one@sol.sun.csd.unb.ca> <15DEC94.15132694.0206@UNBVM1.CSD.UNB.CA>  <3d456s$j9l@access4.digex.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: garnet.berkeley.edu

In article <3d456s$j9l@access4.digex.net>,
Michael P. Stein  wrote:

>Perhaps you should place in your .signature file something like the following:
>
>   "The above represents the views of Greg Raven, and is not endorsed by 
>the Institute for Historical Review.  All facts contained herein are 
>strictly accidental."

Yes, but wouldn't that then imply that things endorsed by the IHR
contain facts that were put there on purpose?
--
					Richard Schultz

"I seem to smell a peculiar and a fishlike smell."


Article 20268 of alt.revisionism:
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From: jmorris@gpu2.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: From IHR WWW Site: Was Encampment Justified
Date: 19 Dec 1994 09:23:14 GMT
Organization: University of Alberta
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <3d3je2$1bg1@quartz.ucs.ualberta.ca>
References: <3cl5j8$one@sol.sun.csd.unb.ca> <3cm7e6$ed9@quartz.ucs.ualberta.ca> <3cn62f$f73@agate.berkeley.edu> <3cnf8g$e4k@quartz.ucs.ualberta.ca> <3cnfhf$1299@quartz.ucs.ualberta.ca> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: gpu2.srv.ualberta.ca
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]

Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com) wrote:
                 ^^^
: In article <3cnfhf$1299@quartz.ucs.ualberta.ca>,
: jmorris@gpu2.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:

: > Well, I checked; it came from Keith's account.  So unless Keith is 
: > pulling our legs, this is a real article from IHR.

: Well, I don't know who Keith Morrison is, but I can assure you that this
: item did not come from the IHR. In case you haven't contacted my home page
: yourself, you should know that my home page is MY home page, not the
: IHR's. They do not pay for it, monitor it, condone it, contribute to it,
: etc. The file in question is one that someone gave me a couple years back,
: and I thought that it, while flawed, does make one stop and think.

Ah, if only it did, "make one stop and think," that is.

: -- 
: Greg Raven
: mailto:greg.ihr@kaiwan.com
              ^^^
: http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr
                              ^^^
Anyway, a thousand apologies for my egregious error.  The highlighted bits
of your userid might explain how I was led astray. 

--
 John Morris                               
 at University of Alberta    


Article 20270 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: From IHR WWW Site: Was Encampment Justified
Date: 20 Dec 1994 08:49:47 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 12
Message-ID: <3d6ndr$9cl@access4.digex.net>
References: <3cl5j8$one@sol.sun.csd.unb.ca> <3cnf8g$e4k@quartz.ucs.ualberta.ca> <3cnfhf$1299@quartz.ucs.ualberta.ca> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net

In article ,
Greg Raven  wrote:
>The file in question ["Was the Encampment of the Jews Justified?"] is one 
>that someone gave me a couple years back, and I thought that it, while 
>flawed, does make one stop and think.

    Perhaps, Mr. Raven, you would care to tell us where you find it 
flawed and disagree with it?
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


Article 20277 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!kmcvay
From: kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay)
Subject: Re: Auschwitz Myths and Facts
References: 
Organization: The Old Frog's Almanac
Message-ID: <1994Dec23.235243.1062@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 94 23:52:43 GMT

In article  
Greg Raven regurgitates Mark Weber's shopworn Auchwitz piece...

>Auschwitz: Myths and Facts
>by Mark Weber

   'The Four Million Variant' is yet another example of how 
Holocaust deniers take a fact and twist it for their own designs to 
deceive an otherwise naive reader.  The fact is that the Auschwitz 
State Museum claimed for decades that four million died at 
Auschwitz.  In 1990, this figure was officially lowered to 1.1 million. 
Deniers then manipulated both the long standing four million figure 
and the lowering of the number to implicate all mainstream 
historians and the general public in some kind of conspiracy. 
They claim that everyone was taught since grade school that four 
million died at Auschwitz, and anyone who dared to say that the 
number might be less was labeled an anti-semite, as this quote 
from _The Spotlight_ attests:

      Previous to 1992, anyone who publicly doubted the 4.1 million
      "gassing" deaths at Auschwitz was labeled an anti-Semite,
      neo-nazi skinhead (at the very least).  Quietly, because of
      revisionist findings, the official figure was lowered to 1.1
      million.  No mention of that missing 3 million. (Foner,
      Spotlight, Jan '93)

   The  April 12, 1993  _Spotlight_  (as well as other 'revisionist' 
writings, see below) also claim that all or most mainstream 
historians supported the State Museum's figure of four million:

      The Establishment numbers on the holocaust [sic] are suspect,
      according to revisionist historians.  For instance, deaths at
      Auschwitz were reported for decades to be 4.1 million gassing
      victims.  However, since revisionist scholars began focusing on
      the numbers, the figure was officially lowered to 1.1 million.

    Several of the denier cadre have written at length on the four 
million figure, including Bradley Smith.  The following letter appears 
in the current issue of the magazine _Anarchy._  It's a response 
from Bradley Smith to a letter from journalist Bill Weinberg in a 
previous issue.  In Weinberg's letter, he scolded the editors of 
_Anarchy_ for not being critical enough of "holocaust revisionism" 
in a review of Smith's book _Confessions of a Holocaust 
Revisionist._  (For those of you not familiar with the magazine, they 
have made it clear that they think the "revisionists" are Nazis 
and hardly worth wasting time or ink on.  _Anarchy_ is generally an 
excellent magazine.)

      Example: we were told for half a century that Auschwitz claimed
      four million murdered victims (mostly Jews).  In 1990 the
      Auschwitz State Museum lowered the figure to 1.1 million.

      Revisionists believe there are a few questions that need to be
      asked about this development.  The short list include these:
      where are the documents that "proved" the original 4-million
      figure?  Where are the documents that in 1990 "disprove" the
      4-million figure?  Where is the scholarly paper that addresses
      the judicial process through which the Nuremberg Court accepted
      the 4-million figure as historically accurate?  How did the
      court go wrong?  How many Germans were the victims of judicial
      murder because of the Court's lack of professionalism, or its
      political bias?  Where is the paper that reveals to us the
      scholarly, half-century long road our valiant historians
      traveled to come to the conclusion that the 4-million figure was
      wrong?  How were revisionist investigators able to figure it out
      40 years earlier (see the writings of Paul Rassinier and others
      in the 1950s)?

      The short answers?  1) None of these papers or documents exist
      or ever did exist.  2) Revisionists were able to figure out the
      scam in the 1950s because they took a run at it. (Smith, Anarchy)

Smith's claim about the "loss" of three million victims was also
included within his CODOH campus advertisement, which appeared in the
IHR Newsletter in April of 1992, and which includes the following
paragraphs:

      The Auschwitz State Museum has recently revised its half-century-
      old claim that 4 million humans were murdered there.  The Museum
      now says maybe it was 1 million.  But what proof does the Museum
      provide to document the 1 million figure?  None!  The communist
      propagandists who manage the museum have put on display piles of
      hair, boots and eyeglasses, etc.  While such displays are
      effective propaganda devices, they are worthless as historical
      documentation for "gassings" or a program of "extermination."

      Meanwhile, Revisionists want to know where those 3 million souls
      have been the last 45 years.  Were they part of the fabled Six
      Million? (Smith, Campus)

In _The Journal of Historical Review_, Walter Luftl repeated the Four
Million Variant when answering the question "What is the Holocaust?"

      In the view of those who believe--or cause others to believe--in
      the [Holocaust], mass gassings, especially of Jews, were carried
      out in the concentration camps of the Third Reich.  Above all in
      Auschwitz (hence the term "Auschwitz Myth"), four million Jews
      were gassed.  [The Nuremberg Tribunal "established" that four
      million PEOPLE (Jews and non-Jews) had been KILLED (by all
      means) at Auschwitz.] Currently, though, unimpeachable sources
      are seeking to reduce this [sic] figure to 1.5 million.  On
      mathematical grounds alone, the "symbolic figure of Six Million"
      should be reduced by 3.5 million.  Of course, such a reduction
      does not lessen the [gravity of the] crime in any way, because
      even one victim is one too many. (Luftl)

    Another magazine, _The Spotlight_, carried an article about David
Cole, another Holocaust "revisionist" in January of 1993.  This article
sums up the denier's claims about the "Four Million Variant" quite well:

      Like most Americans, since his youth Cole had been instructed in
      the "irrefutable fact" that homicidal gassings had taken place
      at Auschwitz.  The number of those so executed - also declared
      irrefutable - was 4.1 million.

      Then came the Leuchter Report in 1988.  This was followed by a
      "re-evaluation" of the total deaths at Auschwitz (down to 1.1
      million).  As a budding historian - and a Jew - Cole was
      intrigued.

   In short, deniers assert that the four million figure from the 
Auschwitz State Museum was a widely accepted figure, and that the 
lowering of the number to 1.1 million was largely through the efforts 
of "revisionists", including the Leuchter Report.  Second, deniers 
now say that the total dead from the Holocaust should be about 
three million rather than six. 

   Despite how things may appear, this is clearly not the case.  Let's 
look at each aspect of the denier's "Four Million Variant":

1) The Auschwitz State Museum claimed for almost forty years that 
the total dead at Auschwitz was four million victims until lowering 
the number to 1.1 million in 1990.
 
   This much is true.  On May 12th, 1945 a Soviet State Commission 
had visited Auschwitz and reported that not less than four million 
people died there (Reitlinger, p 499).  This number was displayed at 
the Auschwitz State Museum until 1990, when it was lowered to 1.1 
million. 

2) The belief that four million people were killed at Auschwitz was a 
widely held notion, both in the minds of the general public and in 
"Establishment" historians.

   This is plainly false.  Few historians ever believed the four million 
figure, and even Nazis involved in the extermination gave different 
numbers.  Eichmann set the Auschwitz death toll at 2.5 million, as 
did Ho"ss when he was interrogated. In his memoirs a few years 
later, Ho"ss said that figure was given to him by Eichmann, and that 
Ho"ss himself felt that the actual number was about 1.13 million.  

  Did mainstream historians believe the figure?  A quick survey of 
historical books on the Holocaust and Auschwitz shows quite plainly 
that few historians believed the figure of four million.  The sources 
listed below include the publishing date, and all were published 
before 1990.

  In an English translation of Ho"ss memoirs, entitled  _Death 
Dealer:  The Memoirs of the SS Kommandant of Auschwitz_, Ho"ss 
lists the total Auschwitz dead at 1.1 million (p 39).  His memoirs 
were written in 1947.

   Martin Gilbert's _Atlas of the Holocaust_  (c. 1988) lists the 
total dead in all of Poland as three million, below the state 
museum's claim for Auschwitz alone.

   Raul Hilberg's _The Destruction of the European Jews_ (c. 1961)
lists the total dead at Auschwitz at about 1 million (p 572).

   Gerald Reitlinger's _The Final Solution:  The Attempt to 
Exterminate the Jews of Europe, 1939-1945_  (c. 1968) lists the 
total Auschwitz dead as between 800,000 and 900,000 (p 500).

   Yehuda Bauer's _A History of the Holocaust_ (c. 1982) lists the
Auschwitz death toll as between 1.5 and 3.5 million (p 215).

   The World Book Encyclopedia (1980 ed.) lists the total dead
at Auschwitz as 2.5 million, based upon Ho"ss's trial testimony.

   Poliakov's _Harvest of Hate_ (c. 1956) lists the total Auschwitz 
dead at about 2.3 million (p 202). 

   Clearly, the four million figure was never widely believed, as 
none of the five historians listed above use it. Furthermore, both 
Auschwitz Commandant Ho"ss and Adolf Eichmann, the person in 
charge of carrying out the 'Final Solution,' claimed it was lower, 
about 1.1 and 2.5 million, respectively.  

   If the general public believed that four million died at Auschwitz,
one must wonder where they got the notion.  Clearly not from 
historians like Hilberg, and not from common reference materials 
like the World Book Encyclopedia.

   To take this point even further, Reitlinger's _The Final Solution_
discusses both the source of the four million number and why few
historians believe it (p. 499).  Comments and typos are 
mine:

    ...The Red Army did not arrive [at Auschwitz] till January 26th. 
    They found 2,819 invalids in the three camps, whom they spared 
    no pains to nurse back to health.  In due course a Soviet 
    State Commission arrived and on May 12th the world was 
    presented with its findings.

           'However, using rectified coefficients for the part time 
        employment of the crematorium ovens and for the periods
        when they stood empty, the technical expert commission has
        ascertained that during the time that the Auschwitz camp 
        existed, the German butchers [sic] exterminated in this camp 
        not less than four million citizens of the U.S.S.R., Poland, 
        France, Jugoslavia [sic], Czechoslovakia, Rumania, 
        Hungary, Holland, Belgium, and other countries.'
    
        The world has grown mistrustful of 'rectified coefficients' and 
    the figure of four million has become ridiculous.  Unfortunately,
    Russian arithmetic has blurred the stark and inescapable fact that 
    800,000 to 900,000 human beings perished in Auschwitz, its gas 
    chambers and its camps.  There are probably too many 
    incalculable factors to make a closer estimate of the number of 
    Auschwitz victims possible...

   Reitlinger's book was published in 1968, well before the deniers 
claim that the four million figure fell into disfavor.  Had the figure 
been as popular as deniers assert, one must wonder why Reitlinger 
would have called it ridiculous!

   Poliakov's _Harvest of Hate_ explains where his own 2.3 million 
number came from, and also discusses Eichmann's and Ho"ss's 
2.5 million figure:

      "After some thirty months of intense activity, the Auschwitz
      balance sheet showed close to two million immediate
      exterminations (this figure can never be fixed exactly), (8) to
      which one must add the deaths of some 300,000 registered
      prisoners - Jews for the most part, but not entirely - for whom
      the gas chamber was only one of any number of ways by which 
      they might have perished." (Poliakov, 202)

Poliakov also shed light upon the Ho"ss testimony in this note
appended to the citation above:

      "(8) In his affidavits, Ho"ss spoke of two and a half million,
      'a figure set officially,' he wrote, under the signature of
      [Eichmann], in a report to Himmler. This figure has been
      accepted by several authors, and it appears in the verdict at
      the trial of the major war criminals. However, there is no
      reason for accepting without question the statistics attributed
      to Eichmann, which may err on either side. Adding the number of
      victims to those deported from different countries gives a lower
      figure, although we have little data, for example, on the number
      of Polish Jews sent to Auschwitz. An approximate figure in the
      neighborhood of two million seems closer to the truth."
      (Ibid.)

   Poliakov raises an interesting point -- if the four million figure was 
so widely believed, then why was the Eichmann figure of 2.5 million
used in the verdict of major war criminals?  Simply because no one
but the Auschwitz State Museum and the Soviet State Commission
ever believed the four million figure.  The notion that historians or 
the general public believed the Soviet Commission's four million 
figure is a complete fabrication.

3)  Holocaust 'revisionists' are largely to credit for the lowering of 
the four million figure.  

   This particular claim is an example of Holocaust deniers 
overstating their influence on the world.  The lowering of the figure 
had nothing to do with 'revisionist historians' at all, rather it was 
based on a study released by a panel of historians appointed by 
the Polish Government.  As Alfred Cattani wrote in the magazine 
_News Weekly_ (5/11/91, p19):

    Some time ago, at the monument on the grounds of the former 
    Auschwitz concentration camp, the memorial tablet dedicated to 
    the victims of this death factory was removed.

    The action was prompted by the results of a study conducted by 
    an official historians' committee established by Poland's Ministry 
    of Culture.  The study concluded that the number of Auschwitz 
    victims had not been four million, as stated on the tablet, but the 
    much smaller figure of about one million.  A similar conclusion 
    was expressed by Franciszek Piper, head of the Historical 
    Department at the Auschwitz Museum.

[ed. note: 'News Weekly' is published in Melbourne by the National 
Civic Council, a conservative Catholic public affairs organisation in 
Australia.]

   Which brings us to claim number four:  

4)  Since the Museum's four million has now been reduced to one
million, the total number of Holocaust victims should be reduced by 
about three million.  

   Again, (surprise!) this is false.  Since few historians ever believed
that so many died at Auschwitz, why should they then recalculate 
their own estimates to account for three million that they never 
counted in the first place?   Many of these historians had calculated
a total dead from the Holocaust of 4.5 million or more, including an 
Auschwitz death toll of only a million or so. For example,Reitlinger's 
_The Final Solution_  estimated about 4.2 to 4.9 million Jewish 
dead from the Holocaust, and Hilberg estimated that more than five 
million Jews died. If the Auschwitz Four Million Variant was never 
apart of the around six million dead, there is no reason to lower the 
figure.

   In short, the Four Million Variant is a specious attempt to envelope
unwary readers into the denial web of deceit, and can be safely
discarded after the most rudimentary examination of published
histories. 

Work Cited:

   Foner, Samuel P.  "Major Historical Fact Uncovered" SPOTLIGHT
      Vol.  XIX, Number 2, January 11, 1993) 

   Luftl, Walter.  "The Luftl Report: An Austrian Engineer's Report on
      the 'Gas Chambers' of Auschwitz and Mauthausen," _The Journal of
      Historical Review_, Vol.  12, Number 4 (Winter 1992-93)

   Poliakov, Leon.  Harvest of Hate: The Nazi Program for the
      Destruction of the Jews of Europe.  Syracuse University Press.,
      1956.

   Smith, Bradley. "Campus Ad Campaign Goes Forward," Institute for
      Historical Review (IHR) Newsletter, April, 1992, No. 86

   Smith, Bradley. Letter to Editor, Anarchy Magazine
-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The Nizkor Project ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"However, it is sophistry to proclaim that something must have happened a
certain way because your `reason' demands it." (Greg Raven, Institute for
Historical Review)


Article 20299 of alt.revisionism:
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Himmler, Poznan, and Raven
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 1994 22:20:31 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 37
Message-ID: 
References: <1994Dec20.171420.21862@hobbes.kzoo.edu> <3d7dph$f4m@amhux3.amherst.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan009.kaiwan.com

In article <3d7dph$f4m@amhux3.amherst.edu>, jaklein@unix.amherst.edu (Josh
Klein) wrote:

> Jamie R. McCarthy (k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu) wrote:
> > Greg Raven sent me the following email a week ago tomorrow and asked
> > that I post it.  I apologize for it taking so long for me to get around
> > to -- I'm looking into starting my own business, and it's taking most of
> > my free time.  (Next time, Mr. Raven, please post it yourself or Cc it
> > to alt-revisionism@cs.utexas.edu, which will post it for you.)
> 
> [A PORTION OF Mr. RAVEN'S MESSAGE FOLLOWS]
> 
> > This is so simple: in a murder trial, the prosecution must produce the
> > murder weapon. This murder weapon must be analyzed to determine if it was
> > the actual murder weapon, etc. But in the case of the gas chambers, we are
> > asked to accept that millions were murdered using a weapon that still has
> > not been seen, tested, examined, etc. This is outrageous.
> 
> This is patently untrue.  The actual weapon is NOT required evidence in a
> murder trial.  Quite frequently, murderers are convicted without this
> physical evidence, purely on the strength of eyewitness testimony.

So you are saying, then, that there are no gas chambers for us to look at,
to examine? If there are, simply produce them. I find it difficult to
believe that anything approaching a fair legal system could convict an
entire peoples of millions of death by gassing without producing even one
little gas chamber.

-- 
Greg Raven
mailto:greg.ihr@kaiwan.com
http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr
-----------------------------------------------------
For free information about the IHR, write to:
IHR, P.O. Box 241556, Newport Beach, CA 92659
Journal of Historical Review, $40 (6 issues per year)
The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, by Dr. Arthur Butz, $10 + $2 shipping


Article 20305 of alt.revisionism:
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Liberation of the Camps: Facts vs. Lies
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 1994 22:16:09 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 428
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The "Liberation of the Camps": FACTS vs. LIES

By Theodore J. O'Keefe

Nothing has been more effective in establishing the authenticity of the
Holocaust in the minds of Americans than the terrible scenes U.S. GIs
discovered when they entered the German concentration camps at the close
of World War II.

At Dachau, Buchenwald, Dora, Mauthausen, and other work and detention
camps, horrified American infantrymen encountered heaps of dead and dying
inmates, emaciated and diseased. Survivors told them hair-raising stories
of torture and slaughter, and backed up their claims by showing the GI's
crematory ovens, alleged gas chambers, supposed implements of torture,
even shrunken heads and lampshades, gloves, and handbags purportedly made
from skin flayed from dead inmates.

U.S. government authorities, mindful that most Americans, who remembered
the atrocity stories fed them during World War I, still doubted the Allied
propaganda directed against the Hitler regime, resolved to "document" what
the GI's had found in the camps. Prominent newsmen and politicians were
flown in to see the harrowing evidence, while the U.S. Army Signal Corps
filmed and photographed the scenes for posterity. The famous journalist
Edward R. Murrow reported, in tones of horror, but no longer of disbelief,
what he had been told and shown, and Dachau and Buchenwald were branded on
the hearts and minds of the American populace as names of infamy unmatched
in the sad and bloody history of this planet.

For Americans, what was "discovered" at the camps -- the dead and the
diseased, the terrible stories of the inmates, all the props of torture
and terror -- became the basis not simply of a transitory propaganda
campaign but of the conviction that yes, it was true: the Germans did
exterminate six million Jews, most of them in lethal gas chambers. What
the GI's found was used, by way of films which were mandatory viewing for
the vanquished populace of Germany, to "re-educate" the German people by
destroying their national pride and their will to a united, independent
national state, imposing in their place overwhelming feelings of
collective guilt and political impotence. And when the testimony, and the
verdict, at Nuremberg incorporated most, if not all, of the horror stories
Americans were told about Dachau, Buchenwald, and other places captured by
the U.S. Army, the Holocaust could pass for one of the most documented,
one of the most authenticated, one of the most proven historical episodes
in the human record.

A Different Reality

But it is known today that, very soon after the liberation of the camps,
American authorities were aware that the real story of the camps was quite
different from the one in which they were coaching military public
information officers, government spokesmen, politicians, journalists, and
other mouthpieces.

When American and British forces overran western and central Germany in
the spring of 1945, they were followed by troops charged with discovering
and securing any evidence of German war crimes. Among them was Dr. Charles
Larson, one of America's leading forensic pathologists, who was assigned
to the Judge Advocate General's Department. Dr. Larson performed autopsies
at Dachau and some twenty other German camps, examining on some days more
than 100 corpses. After his grim work at Dachau, he was questioned for
three days by U.S. Army prosecutors. (note 1)

Dr. Larson's findings? According to an interview he gave to an American
journalist in 1980, "What we've heard is that six million Jews were
exterminated. Part of that is a hoax." (note 2) And what part was the
hoax? Dr. Larson, who told his biographer that to his knowledge he "was
the only forensic pathologist on duty in the entire European Theater,"
(note 3) informed Wichita Eagle reporter Jan Floerchinger that "never was
a case of poison gas uncovered." (note 4) Neither Dr. Larson nor any other
forensic specialist has ever been cited by any Holocaust historian to
substantiate a single case of death by poison gas, whether Zyklon-B or any
other variety.

Typhus, Not Poison Gas

If not by gassing, how did the unfortunate victims at Dachau, Buchenwald,
and Bergen- Belsen perish? Were they tortured to death? Deliberately
starved? The answers to these questions are known as well. As Dr. Larson
and other Allied medical men discovered, the chief cause of death at
Dachau, Belsen, and the other camps was disease, above all typhus, an old
and terrible scourge of mankind which until recently flourished in places
where populations were crowded together in circumstances where public
health measures were unknown or had broken down. Such was the case in the
overcrowded internment camps in Germany at war's end, where, despite such
measures as systematic delousing, quarantine of the sick, and cremation of
the dead, the virtual collapse of Germany's food, transport, and public
health systems led to catastrophe.

Perhaps the most authoritative statement of the facts as to typhus and
mortality in the camps has been made by Dr. John E. Gordon, M.D., Ph.D., a
professor of preventive medicine and epidemiology at the Harvard
University School of Public Health, who was with U.S. forces in Germany in
1945. Dr. Gordon reported in 1948 that "The outbreaks in concentration
camps and prisons made up the great bulk of typhus infection encountered
in Germany." Dr. Gordon summarized the causes for the outbreaks as
follows:

Germany was in chaos. The destruction of whole cities and the path left by
advancing armies produced a disruption of living conditions contributing
to the spread of the disease. Sanitation was low grade, public utilities
were seriously disrupted, food supply and food distribution was poor,
housing was inadequate and order and discipline were everywhere lacking.
Still more important, a shifting of populations was occurring such as few
countries and few times have experienced. (note 5)

Dr. Gordon's findings are corroborated by Dr. Russell Barton, today a
psychiatrist of international repute, who entered Bergen-Belsen with
British forces as a young medical student in 1945. Barton, who volunteered
to care for the diseased survivors, testified under sworn oath in a
Toronto courtroom in 1985 that "Thousands of prisoners who died at the
Bergen-Belsen concentration camp during World War II weren't deliberately
starved to death but died from a rash of diseases." (note 6) Dr. Barton
further testified that on entering the camp he had credited stories of
deliberate starvations but had decided such stories were untrue after
inspecting the wellequipped kitchens and the meticulously maintained
ledgers, dating back to 1942, of food cooked and dispensed each day.
Despite noisily publicized claims and widespread popular notions to the
contrary, no researcher has been able to document a German policy of
extermination through starvation in the German camps.

No Lampshades, No Handbags, Etc.

What of the ghoulish stories of concentration camp inmates skinned for
their tattoos, flayed to make lampshades and handbags, or other artifacts?
What of the innumerable "torture racks," "meathooks," whipping posts,
gallows, and other tools of torment and death that are reported to have
abounded at every German camp? These allegations, and even more grotesque
ones profferred by Soviet prosecutors, found their way into the record at
Nuremberg.

The lampshade and tattooed-skin charges were made against Ilse Koch,
dubbed by journalists the "Bitch of Buchenwald," who was reported to have
furnished her house with objects manufactured from the tanned hides of
luckless inmates. But General Lucius Clay, military governor of the U.S.
zone of occupied Germany, who reviewed her case in 1948, told his
superiors in Washington: "There is no convincing evidence that she [Ilse
Koch] selected inmates for extermination in order to secure tattooed skins
or that she possessed any articles made of human skin." (note 7) In an
interview General Clay gave years later, he stated about the material for
the infamous lampshades: "Well, it turned out actually that is was goat
flesh. But at the trial it was still human flesh. It was almost impossible
for her to have gotten a fair trial." (note 8) Ilse Koch hanged herself in
a West German jail in 1967.

It would be tedious to itemize and refute the thousands of bizarre claims
as to Nazi atrocities. That there were instances of German cruelty,
however, is clear from the testimony of Dr. Konrad Morgen, a legal
investigator attached to the Reich Criminal Police, whose statements on
the witness stand at Nuremberg have never been challenged by believers in
the Jewish Holocaust. Dr. Morgen informed the court that he had been given
full authority by Heinrich Himmler, commander of Hitler's SS and the dread
Gestapo, to enter any German concentration camp and investigate instances
of cruelty and corruption on the part of the camp staffs. According to Dr.
Morgen's sworn testimony at Nuremberg, he investigated 800 such cases, in
which over 200 convictions resulted. (note 9) Punishments included the
death penalty for the worst offenders, including Hermann Florstedt,
commandant of Lublin (Majdanek), and Karl Koch, Ilse's husband, commandant
of Buchenwald.

In reality, while camp commandants in certain cases did inflict physical
punishment, such acts had to be approved by authorities in Berlin, and it
was required that a camp physician first certify the good health of the
prisoner to be disciplined, and then be on hand at the actual beating.
(note 10) After all, the camps were throughout most of the war important
centers of industrial activity. The good health and morale of the
prisoners was critical to the German war effort, as is evidenced by a 1942
order issued by SS-Brigadefuehrer Richard Gluecks, chief of the office
which controlled the concentration camps, which held camp commanders
"personally responsible for exhausting every possibility to preserve the
physical strength of the detainees." (note 11)

Concentration Camp Survivors Merely Victims?

U.S. Army investigators, working at Buchenwald and other camps, quickly
ascertained what was common knowledge among veteran inmates: that the
worst offenders, the cruelest denizens of the camps were not the guards
but the prisoners themselves. Common criminals of the same stripe as those
who populate U.S. prisons today committed many villainies, particularly
when they held positions of authority, and fanatical Communists, highly
organized to combat their many political enemies among the inmates,
eliminated their foes with Stalinist ruthlessness.

Two U.S. Army investigators at Buchenwald, Egon W. Fleck and Edward A.
Tenenbaum, carefully investigated circumstances in the camp before its
liberation. In a detailed report submitted to their superiors, they
revealed, in the words of Alfred Toombs, their commander, who wrote a
preface to the report, "how the prisoners themselves organized a deadly
terror within the Nazi terror." (note 12)

Fleck and Tenenbaum described the power exercised by criminals and
Communists as follows:

...The trusties, who in time became almost exclusively Communist Germans,
had the power of life and death over all other inmates. They could
sentence a man or a group to almost certain death ... The Communist
trusties were directly responsible for a large part of the brutalities at
Buchenwald.

Colonel Donald B. Robinson, chief historian of the American military
government in Germany, summarized the Fleck-Tenenbaum report in an article
which appeared in The American Mercury shortly after the war. Colonel
Robinson wrote succinctly of the American investigators' findings: "It
appeared that the prisoners who agreed with the Communists ate; those who
didn't starved to death." (note 13)

Additional corroboration of inmate brutality has been provided by Ellis E.
Spackman, who, as Chief of Counter-Intelligence Arrests and Detentions for
the Seventh U.S. Army, was involved in the liberation of Dachau. Spackman,
later a professor of history at San Bernardino Valley College in
California, wrote in 1966 that at Dachau "the prisoners were the actual
instruments that inflicted the barbarities on their fellow prisoners."
(note 14)

"Gas Chambers"

On December 9, 1944 Col. Paul Kirk and Lt. Col. Edward J. Gully inspected
the German concentration camp at Natzweiler in Alsace. They reported their
findings to their superiors at the headquarters of the U.S. 6th Army
Group, which subsequently forwarded Kirk and Gully's report to the War
Crimes Division. While, significantly, the full text of their report has
never been published, it has been revealed, by an author supportive of
Holocaust claims, that the two investigators were careful to characterize
equipment exhibited to them by French informants as a "so-called lethal
gas chamber," and claim it was "allegedly used as a lethal gas chamber".
(note 15)

Both the careful phraseology of the Natzweiler report, and its effective
suppression, stand in stark contrast to the credulity, the confusion, and
the blaring publicity which accompanied official reports of alleged gas
chambers at Dachau. At first, a U.S. Army photo depicting a GI gazing
mournfully at a steel door marked with a skull and crossbones and the
German words for: "Caution! Gas! Mortal danger! Don't open!" was
identified as showing the murder weapon. Later, however, it was evidently
decided that the apparatus in question was merely a standard delousing
chamber for clothing, and another alleged gas chamber, this one cunningly
disguised as a shower room, was exhibited to American congressmen and
journalists as the site where thousands breathed their last. While there
exist numerous reports in the press as to the operation of this second
"gas chamber," no official report by trained Army investigators has yet
surfaced to reconcile such problems as the function of the shower heads:
Were they "dummies," or did lethal cyanide gas stream through them? (Each
theory has appreciable support in journalistic and historiographical
literature.)

As with Dachau, so with Buchenwald, Bergen- Belsen, and the other camps
captured by the Allies. There was no end of propaganda about "gas
chambers," "gas ovens," and the like, but so far not a single detailed
description of the murder weapon and its function, not a single report of
the kind that is mandatory for the successful prosecution of any assault
or murder case in America at that time and today, has come to light.

Furthermore, a number of Holocaust authorities have now publicly decreed
that there were no gassings, no extermination camps in Germany after all!
All these things, we are told, were located in what is now Poland, in
areas captured by the Soviet Red Army and off-limits to Western
investigators. In 1960 Dr. Martin Broszat, who is now director of the
Munich-based Institute for Contemporary History, which is funded by the
West German government to support the Holocaust story, wrote a letter to
the German weekly Die Zeit in which he stated categorically: "Neither in
Dachau nor in Bergen-Belsen nor in Buchenwald were Jews or other prisoners
gassed." (note 16) Professional Nazi-hunter Simon Wiesenthal wrote in 1975
that "there were no extermination camps on German soil." (note 17) And
Dachau "gas chamber" No. 2, which was once presented to a stunned and
grieving world as a weapon which claimed hundreds of thousands of lives,
is now described in the brochure issued to tourists at the modern Dachau
"memorial site" in these words: "This gas chamber, camouflaged as a shower
room, was not used." (note 18)

The Propaganda Intensifies

More than forty years after American troops entered Dachau, Buchenwald,
and the other German camps, and trained American investigators established
the facts as to what had gone on in them, the government in Washington,
the entertainment media in Hollywood, and the print media in New York
continue to churn out millions of words and images annually on the horrors
of the camps and the infamy of the Holocaust. Despite the fact that, with
the exception of the defeated Confederacy, no enemy of America has ever so
suffered so complete and devastating defeat as did Germany in 1945, the
mass media and the politicians and bureaucrats behave as if Hitler, his
troops, and his concentration camps continue to exist in an eternal
present, and our opinion makers continue to distort, through ignorance or
malice, the facts about the camps.

Time for the Truth

It is time that the government and the professional historians revealed
the facts about Dachau, Buchenwald, and the other camps. It is time that
they let the American public know how the inmates died, and how they
didn't die. It is time that the claims as to mass murder by gassing were
clarified and investigated in the same manner as any other claims of
murder are dealt with. It is time that the free ride certain groups have
enjoyed as the result of unchallenged Holocaust claims be terminated, just
as it is time that other groups, including Germans, eastern Europeans, the
Roman Catholic hierarchy, and the wartime leadership of America and
Britain stop being scapegoated, either for their alleged role in the
Holocaust or their supposed failure to stop it.

Above all, it is time that the citizens of this great democratic Republic
have the facts about the camps, facts which they possess a right to know,
a right that is fundamental to the exercise of their authority and their
will in the governance of their country. As citizens and as taxpayers,
Americans of all ethnic backgrounds, of all faiths, have a basic right and
an overriding interest in determining the facts of incidents which are
deemed by those in positions of power to be determinative in America's
foreign policy, in its educational policy, in its selection of past events
to be memorialized in our civic life. The alleged facts of the Holocaust
are today at issue all over the civilized world: in Germany, in France, in
Italy, in Britain, in the Low Countries and Scandinavia, in Japan, across
our border in Canada and in the United States of America itself. The truth
will be decided only by recourse to the facts, in the public forum: not by
concealing the facts, denying the truth, stonewalling reality. The truth
will out, and it is time the government of this country, and governments
and international bodies throughout the world, made public and patent the
evidence of what actually transpired in the German concentration camps in
the years 1933-1945, so that we may put paid to the lies, without fear or
favor, and carry out the work of reconciliation and renewal that is and
must be the granite foundation of mutual tolerance between peoples and of
a peace based on justice, rather than on guns, barbed wire, prisons, and
lies.

NOTES

1. Crime Doctor, a biography of Larson by John D. McCallum, Mercer,
Washington & Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada, 1979, p. 69.

2. Wichita Eagle, April 1, 1980, p. 4C.

3. Crime Doctor, p. 46.

4. Wichita Eagle, April 1, 1980, 4G.

5. John E. Gordon, "Louse-Borne Typhus Fever in the European Theater of
Operations, U.S. Army, 1945," in Forest Ray Moulton, Ed., Rickettsial
Diseases of Man, Am. Acad. for the Advancement of Science, Washington D.C.
1948.

6. Toronto Star, February 8, 1985, p. A2.

7. New York Times, 24 September 1948, p. 3.

8. Interview with Lucius Clay, Official Proceeding of the George C.
Marshall Research Foundation, cited in "Buchenwald: Legend and Reality,"
Mark Weber, The Journal of Historical Review, Vol. 7, no. 4.

9. International Military Tribunal, Vol. XVII, p. 556; IMT, Vol. XX, pp.
489, 438.

10. Cited in The Theory and Practice of Hell, Eugen Kogon, Berkley Books,
New York, pp. 108-109.

11. Nuremberg document NO-1523.

12. Buchenwald: A Preliminary Report, Egon W. Fleck and Edward A.
Tenenbaum, U.S. Army, 12th Army Group, 24 April 1945. National Archives,
Record Group 331, SHAEF, G-5, 17.11, Jacket 10, Box 151
(8929/163-8929/180).

13. "Communist Atrocities at Buchenwald," Donald B. Robinson, in American
Mercury, October 1946.

14. San Bernardino Sun-Telegram, March 13, 1966 (cited in The Man Who
Invented "Genocide," James J. Martin, Institute for Historical Review,
IHR, 1984, pp. 110-111.

15. "Concentration Camp at Natzwiller [sic]," RG 331, Records of Allied
Operations and Occupation, Army Headquarters WW2, SHAEF/G-5/2717, Modern
Military, National Archives, Washington, D.C., cited in Robert H. Abzug,
Inside the Vicious Heart, Oxford University Press, New York, 1985, p. 10,
p. 181.

16. Die Zeit, Hamburg, Germany, August 26, 1960.

17. Books & Bookmen, April 1975, Vol. 7, p. 5.

18. Leaflet, Memorial Site Concentration Camp Dachau, The International
Dachau-Committee, Dachau, Germany, n.d.

The conclusions of the early U.S. Army investigations as to the truth
about the wartime German concentration camps have since been corroborated
by all subsequent investigators and can be summarized:

1. The harrowing scenes of dead and dying inmates were not the result of a
German policy of "extermination," but rather the result of epidemics of
typhus and other disease brought about largely by the effects of Allied
aerial attacks.

2. Stories of Nazi supercriminals and sadists who turned Jews and others
into handbags and lampshades for their private profit or amusement were
sick lies or diseased fantasies; indeed, the German authorities
consistently punished corruption and cruelty on the part of camp
commanders and guards.

3. On the other hand, the representations of the newly liberated inmates
to have been saints and martyrs of Hitlerism were quite often very far
from the truth; indeed, most of the brutalities inflicted on camp
detainees were the work of their fellow prisoners, in contravention of
German policy and German orders.

4. The alleged homicidal showers and gas chambers had been used either for
bathing camp inmates or delousing their clothes; the claim that they had
been used to murder Jews or other human beings is a contemptible
fabrication. Orthodox, Establishment historians and professional
"Natzi-hunters" have quietly dropped claims that inmates were gassed at
Dachau, Buchenwald, and other camps in Germany. They continue, however, to
keep silent regarding the lies about Dachau and Buchenwald, as well as to
evade an open discussion of the evidence for homicidal gassing at
Auschwitz and the other camps captured by the Soviets.

The IHR publishes numerous revisionist books, tapes and other materials,
as well as the bimonthly Journal of Historical Review. Send $2 for a
packet of literature and full listing of books. Or, order more copies of
this leaflet, postpaid, at the following prices:

10 copies: $2.00 -- 50 copies: $5.00
100 copies or more 8 cents each

INSTITUTE FOR HISTORICAL REVIEW
Post Office Box 2739
Newport Beach, California 92659, U.S.A.

-- 
Greg Raven
mailto:greg.ihr@kaiwan.com
http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr
-----------------------------------------------------
For free information about the IHR, write to:
IHR, P.O. Box 241556, Newport Beach, CA 92659
Journal of Historical Review, $40 (6 issues per year)
The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, by Dr. Arthur Butz, $10 + $2 shipping


Article 20306 of alt.revisionism:
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Revisionist answers
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 1994 22:17:07 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 78
Message-ID: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan009.kaiwan.com

In article <3d3bms$1v5@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>, dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) wrote:

> Greg Raven  wrote:
> 
> Perhaps, before we go into this, IHR employee and Hitler admirer
> Greg Raven can tell us why Auschwitz had 5 large crematoriums,
> with 52 cremation furnaces?
>
> Why does a "work camp" have 52 large cremation furnaces? The
> "revisionists" don't deny this fact. Can they explain it? 

Easily. When you look at the population of Auschwitz-Birkenau, and you
look at the number of crematories the Germans usually supplied per capita,
you see that there is nothing out of the ordinary about the number of
crematories at Auschwitz-Birkenau, especially given the deaths from typhus
outbreaks. Check Mattogno's new book for all the details. Butz also gave a
speech at the 1992 IHR Conference about this very issue.

> # Astonishing as it may seem, more and more historians and engineers have
> # been challenging the widely accepted Auschwitz story. 
> 
> "Engineers" like Fred Leuchter, who has a BA in the humanities. It's
> hard to believe that Raven continues to make a fool of himself by
> posting this old garbage. Leuchter was exposed as a liar, his
> incredibly stupid "report" completely demolished, and Raven goes
> on posting this tired old crap. Incredible, just incredible.

Not only has Leuchter worked for years as an engineer, not only does he
have patents in his name and numerous designs, but he has NOT been exposed
as a liar. Every forensic test at Auschwitz or Birkenau since the Leuchter
Report verifies his findings.

> # A key Holocaust document is the "confession" of former Auschwitz
> # commandant Rudolf Hoess of April 5, 1946, which was submitted by the U.S.
> # prosecution at the main Nuremberg trial. (note 5)
> 
> As noted here a thousand times, a much more important source is
> Hoess' detailed autobiography. 

Ah, the often-quoted Hoess testimony, which is even quoted at the US
Holocaust Memorial Museum, is now inconveniently shown to be FALSE, so you
switch to something else. Hoess simply did not witness (nor order) any
gassings.

> # Many thousands of secret German documents dealing with Auschwitz were
> # confiscated after the war by the Allies. Not a single one refers to a
> # policy or program of extermination. 
> 
> Numerous such documents are posted here, including some detailing
> the gassing process. 

FALSE. You post and repost and repost yet again testimonies and other
irrelevant effluvia. If millions were gassed, there MUST be more evidence
than post-war "testimonies" from people who cannot even lie straight.

> # The head of the SS camp administration office sent a directive dated Dec.
> # 28, 1942, to Auschwitz and the other concentration camps. It sharply
> # criticized the high death rate of inmates due to disease, and ordered that
> # "camp physicians must use all means at their disposal to significantly
> # reduce the death rate in the various camps." 
> 
> Meant specifically for work camps, not extermination camps. There
> are other such documents, in which leading Nazis complain that too
> many Jews who can be used for work are being murdered:

This order went to all camps, as clearly stated in the pamphlet ... or are
you saying that all the known camps were merely concentration camps, and
there were "secret" extermination camps that have not yet come to light?

-- 
Greg Raven
mailto:greg.ihr@kaiwan.com
http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr
-----------------------------------------------------
For free information about the IHR, write to:
IHR, P.O. Box 241556, Newport Beach, CA 92659
Journal of Historical Review, $40 (6 issues per year)
The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, by Dr. Arthur Butz, $10 + $2 shipping


Article 20307 of alt.revisionism:
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Himmler, Poznan, and Raven
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 1994 22:25:08 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 67
Message-ID: 
References: <1994Dec20.171420.21862@hobbes.kzoo.edu> <3d7dph$f4m@amhux3.amherst.edu> <3d7okk$atl@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan009.kaiwan.com

In article <3d7okk$atl@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>, dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) wrote:

> Greg Raven writes:
> 
> # This is so simple: in a murder trial, the prosecution must 
> # produce the murder weapon. This murder weapon must be analyzed 
> # to determine if it was the actual murder weapon, etc. But in 
> # the case of the gas chambers, we are asked to accept that 
> # millions were murdered using a weapon that still has not been 
> # seen, tested, examined, etc. This is outrageous.
> 
> To add to Josh Klein's article:
> 
> 1) The prosecution, especially when historical events of such
>    magnitude are considered, does not have to "produce the
>    murder weapon". No one asks that the A-bomb dropped on
>    Hiroshima, for instance, be produced. No one asks that a
>    bomb dropped on Dresden, or on Coventry, be produced, or
>    that the weapons used by the NKVD to kill people in the
>    ex-USSR be produced. Raven's "argument" is ridiculous.

Nonsense. Forensics testing could easily determine what had happened at
the drop sites (grounds zero?) in Japan. There is no comparable evidence
or site with regards the gas chambers.

> 2) The gas chambers have, of course, been seen, and some can
>    be seen today.

FALSE. If you think otherwise, show me a Nazi gas chamber.

> 3) Some of the gas chambers have been examined, right after
>    the war. Pressac's book mentions the forensic tests that
>    chemists conducted on the ventilation grills of some of the
>    gas chambers, in which cyanic compounds were found.

Cyanide traces on a grill do not a gas chamber make. The grills had been
removed from the chambers, as had all the other pieces "tested." Where is
this "gas chamber" today?

> 4) One can only speculate on what Raven means by "tested". Does
>    he want people to be gassed in the gas chambers of Auschwitz
>    and Dachau, to prove that they were used for murder? Does
>    he want replicas to be built and people gassed in them? As
>    we all know, gassing with cyanide gas is no big deal. It
>    was done before WW2 in US jails. The Nazis were obviously
>    capable of doing this, especially since they had so much
>    experience with Zyklon-B and cyanide gas.

No need for replicas, because above in point 2 you claim that Nazi gas
chambers still exist today ... or are you not talking about Nazi gas
chambers, but some other, meaningless gas chamber?

As for the Nazi experience with Zyklon B, they had plenty of experience
with other, faster acting gasses as well. Why would they chose a
slow-action pesticide when there are so many other better gasses?

First, however, I want you to show me that gas chamber!

-- 
Greg Raven
mailto:greg.ihr@kaiwan.com
http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr
-----------------------------------------------------
For free information about the IHR, write to:
IHR, P.O. Box 241556, Newport Beach, CA 92659
Journal of Historical Review, $40 (6 issues per year)
The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, by Dr. Arthur Butz, $10 + $2 shipping


Article 20308 of alt.revisionism:
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Greg's Back! (was Re: Seven Questions)
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 1994 22:27:19 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 32
Message-ID: 
References: <3cqhpl$6qg@sol.sun.csd.unb.ca>  <19DEC94.08960465.0073@UNBVM1.CSD.UNB.CA>
NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan009.kaiwan.com

In article <19DEC94.08960465.0073@UNBVM1.CSD.UNB.CA>, Keith Morrison
 wrote:

> In article 
greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) writes:
> 
> I am so honoured you have answered me.  I would, however, rather you
> answer to questions put to you repeatedly since May the 4th, 1994,
> in a post that I've seen repeated multiple times since September but
> which you seem inevitably to fail answering.  Since you obviously
> have the time to answer me, surely you can spare the but few moments
> it will take for your vast knowledge and historiographic skills to
> reply.

I would so much rather that you and others, instead of saying "May the
4th," as if that has any meaning whatsoever, simply post the item(s)
again. It's no secret that I have perhaps the worst Internet provider on
the planet, but eventually, if you keep reposting this under some name I
can recognize, I will respond.

And please, make sure there are no "testimonies" or other specious garbage
in this "May the 4th" post you are so eager for me to respond to.

-- 
Greg Raven
mailto:greg.ihr@kaiwan.com
http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr
-----------------------------------------------------
For free information about the IHR, write to:
IHR, P.O. Box 241556, Newport Beach, CA 92659
Journal of Historical Review, $40 (6 issues per year)
The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, by Dr. Arthur Butz, $10 + $2 shipping


Article 20325 of alt.revisionism:
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From: Keith Morrison 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Himmler, Poznan, and Raven
Date: 21 DEC 94 06:58:42 AST
Organization: The University of New Brunswick
Lines: 44
Sender: usenet@UNB.CA
Message-ID: <21DEC94.07536739.0048@UNBVM1.CSD.UNB.CA>
References: <1994Dec20.171420.21862@hobbes.kzoo.edu> <3d7dph$f4m@amhux3.amherst.edu> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: unbvm1.csd.unb.ca

In article  greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) writes:
>> >
>> > This is so simple: in a murder trial, the prosecution must produce the
>> > murder weapon. This murder weapon must be analyzed to determine if it was
>> > the actual murder weapon, etc. But in the case of the gas chambers, we are
>> > asked to accept that millions were murdered using a weapon that still has
>> > not been seen, tested, examined, etc. This is outrageous.
>>
>> This is patently untrue.  The actual weapon is NOT required evidence in a
>> murder trial.  Quite frequently, murderers are convicted without this
>> physical evidence, purely on the strength of eyewitness testimony.
>
>So you are saying, then, that there are no gas chambers for us to look at,
>to examine? If there are, simply produce them. I find it difficult to
>believe that anything approaching a fair legal system could convict an
>entire peoples of millions of death by gassing without producing even one
>little gas chamber.

1.  The point was made that you made a clearly untrue statement that
the murder weapon is required to convict a criminal.  You should not
change the subject when proven wrong.

2.  The remains of the gas chambers exist, or did Freddy Leuchter
look at charcoal briquettes at K-Mart?  By the way, you _still_ have
not answered the question about why the SS dynamited the buildings
before retreating.  Why, if they were simple delousing chambers/air
raid shelters/morgues?

3.  Since when have the Nazis and/or SS made up an "entire peoples"?
Anyone new to a.r. take note of his implication that all Germans
were condemned of gassing.  They were not.  Only a few were.  The
ones responsible, ie the Nazi leadership and camp operators.
Revisionists will continually try to say "they say all the Germans
were guilty" when we do not, have not and will not because we have
no interest in creative editing of history to try and gain new
disciples (or suckers, as the case may be).

--
Keith Morrison
t08o@unb.ca

Murphy's Law of Combat #4
  The diversion you're ignoring is the main attack.



Article 20326 of alt.revisionism:
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From: schultz@garnet.berkeley.edu (Richard Schultz)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Himmler, Poznan, and Raven
Date: 21 Dec 1994 12:37:42 GMT
Organization: Philosophers of the Dangerous Maybe
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <3d97im$phb@agate.berkeley.edu>
References: <1994Dec20.171420.21862@hobbes.kzoo.edu> <3d7dph$f4m@amhux3.amherst.edu> <3d7okk$atl@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: garnet.berkeley.edu

In article ,
Greg Raven  wrote:

>As for the Nazi experience with Zyklon B, they had plenty of experience
>with other, faster acting gasses as well. Why would they chose a
>slow-action pesticide when there are so many other better gasses?

Could you be more precise?  Which "faster acting gasses" might the
Nazis have used instead of cyanide?  If there were "so many other
better gasses" then you shouldn't have any problem naming them.
And remember, they have to be gasses with which the Nazis had plenty
of experience, so their nerve gasses (which, btw, would have been
much more difficult to use than cyanide) don't count.  If, on the
other hand, you did mean nerve gas, and you do think that the Nazis
had plenty of experience with them, perhaps you could document this
experience.
--
				Richard Schultz

"It is terrible to die of thirst in the ocean.  Do you have to salt your
truth so heavily that it does not even quench thirst any more?"


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From: schultz@garnet.berkeley.edu (Richard Schultz)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Revisionist answers
Date: 21 Dec 1994 13:40:36 GMT
Organization: Philosophers of the Dangerous Maybe
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <3d9b8k$rkt@agate.berkeley.edu>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: garnet.berkeley.edu

In article ,
Greg Raven  wrote:

>Not only has Leuchter worked for years as an engineer, not only does he
>have patents in his name and numerous designs, but he has NOT been exposed
>as a liar. Every forensic test at Auschwitz or Birkenau since the Leuchter
>Report verifies his findings.

Leuchter claimed that he had been a consultant to various prisons 
regarding their technoloy for executions.  The management of those
prisons denied that he had ever been a consultant for them.  That
means that he was lying.  What part of this do you not understand?

In Massachusetts, in order to call yourself an engineer, you need a
certificate that says you are an engineer.  Leuchter claimed that
he was an engineer, but had no certificate.  That makes him a liar.
What part of this do you not understand?

That you do not understand is clear, because you continue to post
the same lies over and over as if you haven't seen the refutations.
Clearly, you are operating under some definition of "lie" with
which I am unfamiliar.

>FALSE. You post and repost and repost yet again testimonies and other
>irrelevant effluvia. If millions were gassed, there MUST be more evidence
>than post-war "testimonies" from people who cannot even lie straight.

You have been asked this question numerous times, although I have
not seen an answer.  The claim is frequently made that Hoess's
testimony was obtained under duress.  What evidence do you have that
Hoess was tortured?
--
				Richard Schultz

"It is terrible to die of thirst in the ocean.  Do you have to salt your
truth so heavily that it does not even quench thirst any more?"


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From: chip@cybernetics.net (Chip Salzenberg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Liberation of the Camps: Facts vs. Lies
Date: 21 Dec 1994 15:02:11 GMT
Organization: Creative Cybernetics, Inc.
Lines: 10
Message-ID: <3d9g1j$3fh@jabba.cybernetics.net>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: server0.cybernetics.net

According to greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven):
>Dr. Larson [...] informed Wichita Eagle reporter Jan Floerchinger that
>"never was a case of poison gas uncovered."

Of course not.  Those gassed were cremated.
-- 
              Chip Salzenberg, aka 
  "Don't move!"  *BANG*  "You have the right to remain silent!"  *BANG!*
    "Anything you say can and will be used against you!"  *SPLASH*
               -- Tom Servo, MST3K: "High School Bigshot"


Article 20333 of alt.revisionism:
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From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Revisionist answers
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 1994 10:14:21 -0500
Organization: University of Michigan
Lines: 108
Message-ID: 
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm005-08.dialip.mich.net

This is one of the more amazing series of outright lies we've seen.
But I'd expect no less from Mr. Raven.

greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) wrote:

> dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) wrote:
> 
> > Why does a "work camp" have 52 large cremation furnaces? The
> > "revisionists" don't deny this fact. Can they explain it? 
> 
> Easily. When you look at the population of Auschwitz-Birkenau, and you
> look at the number of crematories the Germans usually supplied per capita,
> you see that there is nothing out of the ordinary about the number of
> crematories at Auschwitz-Birkenau, especially given the deaths from typhus
> outbreaks. Check Mattogno's new book for all the details. Butz also gave a
> speech at the 1992 IHR Conference about this very issue.

Proof by assertion.  They say there's nothing out of the ordinary about
the enormous capacity of the Auschwitz cremation furnaces, so therefore
it's OK.

Sorry, it doesn't work that way, Mr. Raven.  Present an argument from
this book of Mattogno's (published by whom, please?), or summarize Butz's
position for us.

Meantime, I might suggest a source for interested readers:  the essays
"The Machinery of Mass Murder at Auschwitz," by Pressac and van Pelt,
and "A Site in Search of a Mission," by van Pelt, in the book _Anatomy
of the Auschwitz Death Camp_, Gutman and Berenbaum, eds., 1994.  The
former goes into great detail of which oven was ordered and built when,
by whom, for how much money, right down to the kickbacks the engineers
got.  I believe the latter is the essay that compares the ratio of
cremation capacity to inmate population of the various camps, quite
interesting in a macabre way.

> Not only has Leuchter worked for years as an engineer, not only does he
> have patents in his name and numerous designs,

Yes, he has two patents from the early 70s for, what, an electronic
sextant and something else totally unrelated to this field?  Please
explain how those patents qualify him to judge chemical traces at
Auschwitz, Mr. Raven.

> but he has NOT been exposed
> as a liar. Every forensic test at Auschwitz or Birkenau since the Leuchter
> Report verifies his findings.

Untrue.  The Polish government did their own studies and rebutted
Leuchter's conclusions re chemical analysis quite effectively.  And the
vast majority of the rest of his "Leuchter Report" is simply recycled
old denier trash that is easily dismissable.  Leuchter proves, for
instance, that no one could have died at Auschwitz because to have
killed six million Jews there would have taken something like forty-two
years.  As everyone knows, the claim is never made that six millions
were killed at Auschwitz;  more like 1.1 million Jews were gassed.
And so on;  the rest of the "Leuchter Report" is about that quality.

> > # A key Holocaust document is the "confession" of former Auschwitz
> > # commandant Rudolf Hoess of April 5, 1946, which was submitted by the U.S.
> > # prosecution at the main Nuremberg trial. (note 5)
> > 
> > As noted here a thousand times, a much more important source is
> > Hoess' detailed autobiography. 
> 
> Ah, the often-quoted Hoess testimony, which is even quoted at the US
> Holocaust Memorial Museum, is now inconveniently shown to be FALSE, so you
> switch to something else. Hoess simply did not witness (nor order) any
> gassings.

This is unbelievable.  Hoess' testimony regarding the number of victims,
and _only_ regarding the number of victims, was based on figures he was
given by Eichmann -- as Hoess himself explained in his testimony!
When he totaled up more reliable figures, he got a total very close to
modern historians' (about 1.3 million gassed, I believe).

To jump from number-confusion to "Hoess did not witness any gassings" is
simply laughable.  The man wrote many accounts of the gassings he
witnessed (and ordered) -- about the faces of the men and women going
into the chambers, about the pleas of an old woman, the curse hissed at
him by a young woman taking her beautiful child into the gas chambers,
the way he had to act strong in front of his men to keep morale high...

> > # Many thousands of secret German documents dealing with Auschwitz were
> > # confiscated after the war by the Allies. Not a single one refers to a
> > # policy or program of extermination. 
> > 
> > Numerous such documents are posted here, including some detailing
> > the gassing process. 
> 
> FALSE. You post and repost and repost yet again testimonies and other
> irrelevant effluvia.

Another blatant lie.

Himmler's Poznan speech is the one that jumps most quickly to mind,
obviously, because we've been discussing it endlessly.  That was indeed
a secret German document;  it was indeed confiscated after the war; it
indeed refers to a policy of extermination.  Mr. Raven has in fact been
discussing it (in a manner of speaking) for the last few months;  for
him to say the above is almost unbelievable.

Raven is engaging in what Hitler referred to as the "Big Lie," I
suppose.
-- 
 Jamie McCarthy   Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu   AppleLink: j.mccarthy
 "The Jewish people will be exterminated...it's in our program."  - Himmler
 "Until you find a reference to gas chambers, you can forget about long,
  drawn-out discussions of Himmler's speeches."                     - Raven


Article 20338 of alt.revisionism:
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From: golux@mcs.com (The only Golux in the World, and not a mere Device)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Himmler, Poznan, and Raven
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 1994 21:02:25 -0600
Organization: MCSNet Services
Lines: 50
Message-ID: 
References: <1994Dec20.171420.21862@hobbes.kzoo.edu> <3d7dph$f4m@amhux3.amherst.edu> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: golux.pr.mcs.net

In article ,
greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) wrote:

> In article <3d7dph$f4m@amhux3.amherst.edu>, jaklein@unix.amherst.edu (Josh
> Klein) wrote:
> > [A PORTION OF Mr. RAVEN'S MESSAGE FOLLOWS]
> > 
> > > This is so simple: in a murder trial, the prosecution must produce the
> > > murder weapon. This murder weapon must be analyzed to determine if it was
> > > the actual murder weapon, etc. But in the case of the gas chambers, we are
> > > asked to accept that millions were murdered using a weapon that still has
> > > not been seen, tested, examined, etc. This is outrageous.
> > 
> > This is patently untrue.  The actual weapon is NOT required evidence in a
> > murder trial.  Quite frequently, murderers are convicted without this
> > physical evidence, purely on the strength of eyewitness testimony.
> 
> So you are saying, then, that there are no gas chambers for us to look at,
> to examine? If there are, simply produce them. I find it difficult to
> believe that anything approaching a fair legal system could convict an
> entire peoples of millions of death by gassing without producing even one
> little gas chamber.

Greg, are you suggesting that if I can't show you the actual gun with
which John Wilkes Booth shot Abraham Lincoln that means that Lincoln
wasn't assassinated?

And what "entire people" has been convicted of millions of deaths?  As far
as I can tell, the Nazis were merely a subset of an "entire people," a
government composed of bigoted thugs, and they committed mass murder.  We
can't produce every rifle with which the Einsatzgruppen killed hundreds of
thousands, but it happened.  We can't produce an actual working gas
chamber for your edification, but they existed.

For the final time (unless you persist in not comprehending), eyewitness
testimony is as valid a way of determining what happened as any physical
evidence.  When thousands of eyewitnesses corroborate each other, it lends
a great degree of credibility to their stories.  When the perpetrators of
a horrible crime admit in memoranda and confessions that they are guilty,
that carries a great deal of evidentiary weight.  The lack of a weapon,
destroyed by the criminals to cover their tracks, does not -- repeat NOT
-- disprove the crime.

Please explain what in the foregoing paragraph you have trouble with.

-- 
D. J. Schaeffer |       The Todal looks like a blob of glup.
golux@mcs.com   |     It makes a sound like rabbits screaming,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^        and smells of old, unopened rooms.
                            -- Thurber, _The 13 Clocks_


Article 20339 of alt.revisionism:
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From: choover@nyx10.cs.du.edu (Christopher Hoover)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Greg's Back! (was Re: Seven Questions)
Date: 21 Dec 1994 08:35:11 -0700
Organization: University of Denver, Math/CS Dept.
Lines: 80
Message-ID: <3d9hvf$jo5@nyx10.cs.du.edu>
References: <3cqhpl$6qg@sol.sun.csd.unb.ca>  <19DEC94.08960465.0073@UNBVM1.CSD.UNB.CA> 
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X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #3 (NOV)

greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) writes:

>In article <19DEC94.08960465.0073@UNBVM1.CSD.UNB.CA>, Keith Morrison
> wrote:

>> In article 
>greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) writes:
>> 
>> I am so honoured you have answered me.  I would, however, rather you
>> answer to questions put to you repeatedly since May the 4th, 1994,
>> in a post that I've seen repeated multiple times since September but
>> which you seem inevitably to fail answering.  Since you obviously
>> have the time to answer me, surely you can spare the but few moments
>> it will take for your vast knowledge and historiographic skills to
>> reply.

>I would so much rather that you and others, instead of saying "May the
>4th," as if that has any meaning whatsoever, simply post the item(s)
>again. It's no secret that I have perhaps the worst Internet provider on
>the planet, but eventually, if you keep reposting this under some name I
>can recognize, I will respond.

I might suggest to Mr. Raven that this particular disingenuous veneer 
wore thin several months ago.  Anyone who has given this newsgroup even 
the most sporadic attention in the last several months by now is well 
aware that Mr. Raven has seen the post in question repeatedly.  It has 
been reposted to this newsgroup any number of times.  It has been 
e-mailed to Mr. Raven.  He has, I believe, even acknowledged receipt of 
the May 4th material in e-mail (correct me if I'm wrong here, Jamie).  

The entire labyrinthine tale of Mr. Raven's egregious claims to have never 
seen the May 4th article is spelled out in one of Jamie McCarthy's WWW pages:

http://www.kzoo.edu/~k044477/RUE3-RavenError07.html

Bear in mind that this page is under construction, but when completed, it 
will include a link to a copy of the May 4th article.  Then, Mr. Raven 
will be able to point his WWW browser at it any time, day or night, and 
have unfettered access to the article.

And I'd be willing to bet that he _still_ won't respond to it.

I don't know what's left to prove that Mr. Raven has seen the article.  
Registered mail?  Surely, if most of the antirevisionists are anything 
like me, none of us can really afford to fly a courier and a notary 
public out to Mr. Raven's office to deliver the material in person so 
that they can personally attest that he has received it....

>And please, make sure there are no "testimonies" or other specious garbage
>in this "May the 4th" post you are so eager for me to respond to.

Here, we see a pathetic attempt by Mr. Raven to hedge his bets:  once the
I've-never-seen-the-article gambit wears too thin, he'll start in on his
curious (and erroneous) rant about how testimony isn't evidence.  Mr. 
Raven has repeatedly put forward this peculiar historiographic notion, but
never once has he done so with references to any reputable, contemporary
historiographers who agree with him.  He just wants us to take it on faith
because he says so. 

In September, I posted a lengthy discussion of this very issue, and 
referred to reputable historiographers to demonstrate that testimony is, 
indeed, evidence.  The same article was reposted recently under the title 
"Greg Raven's False Historiography Redux."  So far, Mr. Raven has been 
unwilling to respond to this article, or to engage me in any discussion 
of the issue whatsoever.  Instead, he continues to cling to his false 
theory, repeating it like a mantra whenever necessary:  "testimony is not 
evidence."

Testimony _is_ evidence, Mr. Raven.  Either address the historiographic 
issues concomitant to that statement, or concede the point.  Or, better 
yet, continue to play the fool on this issue; it makes our job that much 
easier.


Chris
-- 
Christopher J. Hoover    choover@nyx.cs.du.edu     Kibo flavor:  Unlisted
Disclaimer:  standard          "Truth in Advertising" quote of the week:  
     "Obviously, I don't have the intellectual brain-power of you guys."   
        --Les Griswold


Article 20344 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!sunserver.insinc.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!uunet!world!bzs
From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Raven Wrong Again
In-Reply-To: mstein@access4.digex.net's message of 21 Dec 1994 18:53:41 -0500
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References: <3cqhpl$6qg@sol.sun.csd.unb.ca>
	
	<19DEC94.08960465.0073@UNBVM1.CSD.UNB.CA>
	
	<3daf65$31p@access4.digex.net>
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 1994 00:24:08 GMT
Lines: 23


From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
>In article ,
>Greg Raven  wrote:
>>It's no secret that I have perhaps the worst Internet provider on
>>the planet,
>
>     Greg, don't you ever stop giving out misinformation?  It is a
>well-known fact that _everyone's_ Internet provider is the worst on the
>planet. 


Not mine, mine's the best on the planet. Hell, it *is* the planet.

(Warning: I have massive personal financial interests in expressing
that opinion, but it happens to be true :-)


-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 20345 of alt.revisionism:
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From: choover@nyx10.cs.du.edu (Christopher Hoover)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Greg's Back! (was Re: Seven Questions)
Date: 22 Dec 1994 14:26:54 -0700
Organization: University of Denver, Math/CS Dept.
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Message-ID: <3dcquu$983@nyx10.cs.du.edu>
References:  <3d9hvf$jo5@nyx10.cs.du.edu> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: nyx10.cs.du.edu
X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #3 (NOV)

greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) writes:

>In article <3d9hvf$jo5@nyx10.cs.du.edu>, choover@nyx10.cs.du.edu
>(Christopher Hoover) wrote:

>> greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) writes:

>> >I would so much rather that you and others, instead of saying "May the
>> >4th," as if that has any meaning whatsoever, simply post the item(s)
>> >again. It's no secret that I have perhaps the worst Internet provider on
>> >the planet, but eventually, if you keep reposting this under some name I
>> >can recognize, I will respond.
>> 
>> I might suggest to Mr. Raven that this particular disingenuous veneer 
>> wore thin several months ago.  Anyone who has given this newsgroup even 
>> the most sporadic attention in the last several months by now is well 
>> aware that Mr. Raven has seen the post in question repeatedly.  It has 
>> been reposted to this newsgroup any number of times.  It has been 
>> e-mailed to Mr. Raven.  He has, I believe, even acknowledged receipt of 
>> the May 4th material in e-mail (correct me if I'm wrong here, Jamie).  


>You see what I mean? I ask for the material to be reposted, and this is
>what I get!

You get...what, exactly, Mr. Raven?  Do you mean that you get it pointed 
out to you that the May 4th article has been reposted (which is what you 
seem to be asking for) _repeatedly_, with you ignoring it _every single 
time_?

Or perhaps you mean that you get a golden opportunity in the form of an 
invitation to discuss with me the substantial historiographic issue of 
whether testimony is evidence, but instead you snip that part of my 
message from your reply and ignore it.  Are you willing to address this 
issue, Mr. Raven, or do you have nothing to contribute here but your own 
peculiar and unsupported opinions regarding historiography?

Or perhaps you mean that you get a URL to a WWW page that will soon
provide a copy of the May 4th article to which you can have access,
morning, noon, and night?  To give credit where due, Mr. Raven, your WWW
pages are fairly nicely-designed, so I'm assuming that you possess
sufficient acumen to know how to point your Web browser at Mr. McCarthy's
RUE pages as well. 

Or perhaps you are implying that instead of pointing out your obvious
disingenuity on this issue, I should, at _your_ whim, have _reposted_ the
May 4th article for you, only to have you ignore it again?  I would point
out to you that I am _not_ one of the authors of the article, Mr. Raven. 
With the actual authors of the piece active on this newsgroup, I hardly
see that it would be my place to go reposting their words for them when
they can, and should, do so when they please (which, of course, they have
done at least a dozen times since May 4th).  Given the number of times
this message has been reposted and sent for you, Mr. Raven, you're hardly
in a position to demand that everyone else jump through your silly little
hoops before you'll deign to reply. 

Your evasiveness wears thin.  If anyone reading this doubts that Mr. 
Raven's reply to me here is wholly evasive, I invite you to go back and 
read the message to which Mr. Raven is replying.  Take note of how much 
of my message he conveniently snipped and ignored, and ask yourself 
whether he has addressed even _one_ of the issues I raised.

>It might also be said that anyone who even casually visits this newsgroup
>knows that I routinely discard all e-mailed forwards from alt.revisionism.

Let's see.  The article in question has been posted and reposted to this 
newsgroup _repeatedly_, and been wholly ignored by Mr. Raven.  It has 
been e-mailed to him, and he has acknowledged its receipt, and then, it 
would seem, immediately discarded it unread.

How, then, are we to make sure Mr. Raven has seen this article?

Mr. Raven seems unable to receive the message in the two most immediate 
and convenient forms, e-mail and news.  What method of transport, then, 
would Mr. Raven prefer?

These questions are not rhetorical, Mr. Raven.  Have you read any of the 
posted copies of this message?  Have you read any of the e-mailed copies 
of this message?  Yes or No answers on these questions, as well, would be 
hepful.

>I'll say it again: I think this "evidence" that they have that they call
>the "May 4th" post is actually nothing more than a bunch of disjointed
>testimonies and other non-sequitors.

Oh, good.  You've chosen to continue playing the fool on the
historiographic (non-)issue of whether testimony is evidence. 
Thanks--that's less work for me.... 


Chris
-- 
Christopher J. Hoover    choover@nyx.cs.du.edu     Kibo flavor:  Unlisted
Disclaimer:  standard          "Truth in Advertising" quote of the week:  
     "Obviously, I don't have the intellectual brain-power of you guys."   
        --Les Griswold


Article 20347 of alt.revisionism:
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From: choover@nyx10.cs.du.edu (Christopher Hoover)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Greg's Back! (was Re: Seven Questions)
Date: 22 Dec 1994 14:40:08 -0700
Organization: University of Denver, Math/CS Dept.
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <3dcrno$bis@nyx10.cs.du.edu>
References: <3cqhpl$6qg@sol.sun.csd.unb.ca>  <19DEC94.08960465.0073@UNBVM1.CSD.UNB.CA> <1994Dec21.195757.20767@oneb.almanac.bc.ca> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: nyx10.cs.du.edu
X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #3 (NOV)

greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) writes:

>In article <1994Dec21.195757.20767@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>,
>kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay) wrote:

>> By the way, the article in question will be published again, on the
>> 4th. of January - the eighth anniversary, so to speak, of its
>> original appearance.

>I thought anniversaries came yearly.

>Nevermind. I certainly wouldn't ask you to produce that post now, while my
>Internet connection seems to (sort of) work and I sort of have time to
>respond. No, no. Much better to way a couple of weeks or so.

Well, Mr. Raven, during this period when you "sort of have time to
respond," I have, in fact, reposted my lengthy analysis of your views
regarding historiography and testimony as evidence.  Surely you noticed 
it, under the title "Greg Raven's False Historiography Redux."  In the 
mean time, while you're waiting for January 4th to roll around, perhaps 
you might find the time to reply to it, and let us know just who the 
reputable, contemporary historiographers are who agree with you on this 
issue.  You _have_ based your opinion on legitimate historiography, 
haven't you, Mr. Raven?



Chris
-- 
Christopher J. Hoover    choover@nyx.cs.du.edu     Kibo flavor:  Unlisted
Disclaimer:  standard          "Truth in Advertising" quote of the week:  
     "Obviously, I don't have the intellectual brain-power of you guys."   
        --Les Griswold


Article 20349 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!uunet!sparky!kwiudl.kwi.com!netcomsv!netcomsv!netcom.com!codfish
From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Greg's Back! (was Re: Seven Questions)
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References: <3cqhpl$6qg@sol.sun.csd.unb.ca>  <19DEC94.08960465.0073@UNBVM1.CSD.UNB.CA>  <3d9hvf$jo5@nyx10.cs.du.edu>
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 1994 05:13:13 GMT
Lines: 5

I thought this was supposed to be a joint search for Historical Truth.  
Instead it seems to be some kind of private feud between you and Greg 
Raven.  Why don't you fill us in on what you're talking about?

               Ross Vicksell


Article 20352 of alt.revisionism:
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From: chip@cybernetics.net (Chip Salzenberg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Liberation of the Camps: Facts vs. Lies
Date: 22 Dec 1994 22:01:41 GMT
Organization: Creative Cybernetics, Inc.
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Message-ID: <3dct05$d00@jabba.cybernetics.net>
References:  <3d9g1j$3fh@jabba.cybernetics.net> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: server0.cybernetics.net

According to greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven):
>In article <3d9g1j$3fh@jabba.cybernetics.net>, chip@cybernetics.net (Chip
>Salzenberg) wrote:
>> According to greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven):
>> >Dr. Larson [...] informed Wichita Eagle reporter Jan Floerchinger that
>> >"never was a case of poison gas uncovered."
>> 
>> Of course not.  Those gassed were cremated.
>
>Very glib. Now, can you support that statement with any evidence?

Not that would satisfy you, apparently.  I based my statement on the
evidence already posted to alt.revisionism by Keren, Shein, and McVay,
among others, and backed up by an Auschwitz survivor whom I know.

You archivists:  Thank you.  Keep up the good work.

You deniers:  
-- 
              Chip Salzenberg, aka 
  "Don't move!"  *BANG*  "You have the right to remain silent!"  *BANG!*
    "Anything you say can and will be used against you!"  *SPLASH*
               -- Tom Servo, MST3K: "High School Bigshot"


Article 20353 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Raven refuted by Leuchter Report!
Date: 23 Dec 1994 14:19:15 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <3df7rj$t5@access4.digex.net>
References: <1994Dec20.171420.21862@hobbes.kzoo.edu>   
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net

In article ,
Greg Raven  wrote:
>In article ,
>k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:
>
>> This is sophistry, of course -- there are seven Nazi gas chambers in
>> varying states of preservation in Auschwitz/Birkenau.  The Reinhard
>> camps' gas chambers, of course, did not survive, being dismantled over
>> a year before the war's end.  I don't know much about Majdanek but I
>> gather its gas chamber was dismantled as well (corrections welcome).
>
>FALSE. There are buildings and rooms that are presented as having been gas
>chambers, but none of them could have operated as such. Every test and
>examination of these facilities confirms this.

    Just to give Greg an additional chance at seeing this information:

    FALSE.  Even Fred Leuchter admitted in the Leuchter Report that his
examination of Majdanek Bath and Delousing No. 1, Chamber 1, confirms it
_could_ have operated as an execution chamber using bottled carbon
monoxide, and in fact it has piping to a steel cylinder (contained in the
control booth) consistent with that use and inconsistent with delousing
use.  (And although he declared that it was unsuitable for use as a
delousing or HCN execution chamber because it lacked sealant and had
dangerous "trap" areas, he admitted that it had prussian blue staining -
which proves it _was_ used for delousing at the very least.)

    The original commission of investigation at Majdanek reported finding 
cylinders of carbon monoxide, a substance whose use in a concentration 
camp is (to me) unfathomable.  Do you have an explanation of what 
innocent use it could possibly have, Greg?

    Physical evidence consistent with homicide and inconsistent with
anything I can think of.  Technically feasible system of delivery as
admitted to by your own "expert," Greg.  Didn't you read the Leuchter
Report carefully?  Too bad.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


Article 20354 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Himmler, Poznan, and Raven
Date: 21 Dec 1994 20:37:53 GMT
Organization: Brown University
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <3da3n1$el8@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
References: <1994Dec20.171420.21862@hobbes.kzoo.edu> <3d7dph$f4m@amhux3.amherst.edu> <3d7okk$atl@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu

Greg Raven  wrote:

# Nonsense. Forensics testing could easily determine what had happened at
# the drop sites (grounds zero?) in Japan. There is no comparable evidence
# or site with regards the gas chambers.

There is - the traces of cyanic compounds.

I'm still waiting for Raven's forensic evidence that WW2 happened,
or that one person in Europe was killed by Allied bombers. Where
is the proof?

# FALSE. If you think otherwise, show me a Nazi gas chamber.

In Auschwitz, Maidanek, and Dachau. 

# Cyanide traces on a grill do not a gas chamber make. 

Yes they do, as they prove cyanide gas was used in it. 

# As for the Nazi experience with Zyklon B, they had plenty of experience
# with other, faster acting gasses as well. Why would they chose a
# slow-action pesticide when there are so many other better gasses?

"Slow-action"? So it took, say, 20 minutes for the people in the
gas chamber to die. That was fast enough. It was much easier
and cheaper to use Zyklon-B than nerve gas, etc.


-Danny Keren.




Article 20356 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Revisionist answers
Date: 23 Dec 1994 14:27:09 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <3df8ad$14o@access4.digex.net>
References:   
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net

In article ,
Greg Raven  wrote:
>In article ,
>k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:
>
>> Proof by assertion.  They say there's nothing out of the ordinary about
>> the enormous capacity of the Auschwitz cremation furnaces, so therefore
>> it's OK.
>
>My Iway connection is too flakey to get into all of this, so I'll stop
>here at the first error. My "assertion" includes references to two
>scholarly works on EXACTLY THIS TOPIC. Please read the material referred
>to before continuing.

    Why don't you post some of it, Greg, so that everyone can see these
gems of scholarship?  Or are you afraid of exactly that thing?  If they're
anything like Mark Weber's "scholarship" about the size of graves at
Treblinka, I could certainly understand why.  Which reminds me - you never
answered my question as to whether you showed my demolition of his
argument to Weber.  Another attack of ARMS?

    You guessed it - posted and emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


Article 20358 of alt.revisionism:
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From: kauhunen@mits.mdata.fi (Kari Nenonen)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Liberation of the Camps: Facts vs. Lies
Date: 22 Dec 1994 17:28:02 GMT
Organization: Mits BBS, Helsinki, Finland (40+ Nodes +358-0-4582066)
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <3dccv2$293@prime.mdata.fi>
References:  
NNTP-Posting-Host: mits.mdata.fi

In article ,
Barry Shein  wrote:

>I hope this little exercise in Raven's and the IHR's cheap and tawdry
>lying and half-truths has been enlightening.

Yes, Barry, enlightening and quite funny, thank you. What would you
expect from a professional liar like Raven? He is following the good
advice of his Master's, Dr. Goebbels: "If you repeat the lie many enough
times, it becomes the truth".

I'd like to wish all of my friends here a merry Xmas and a happy New Year.
The Wars are over, if we want it!


>
>
>-- 
>        -Barry Shein
>
>Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
>Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


-- 
Kari Nenonen   #  WANHOJEN HERROJEN TIETEISKIRJALLISUUDEN NAUTISKELUHUONE
Maavallintie 4 #        "Parempi katon  reunalla  kuin 
00430 Helsinki #         toraisan vaimon huonetoverina" 
Finland        #                         Raamattu


Article 20360 of alt.revisionism:
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From: jeff_brown@pol.com (Jeffrey G. Brown)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Revisionist answers
Date: 23 Dec 1994 04:21:21 GMT
Organization: Internet Access Cincinnati 513-887-8877
Lines: 24
Message-ID: 
References:  <3d9b8k$rkt@agate.berkeley.edu> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: ip041220.iac.net

In article ,
greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) wrote:

> In article <3d9b8k$rkt@agate.berkeley.edu>, schultz@garnet.berkeley.edu
> (Richard Schultz) wrote:
> > 
> > Leuchter claimed that he had been a consultant to various prisons 
> > regarding their technoloy for executions.  The management of those
> > prisons denied that he had ever been a consultant for them.  That
> > means that he was lying.  What part of this do you not understand?
> 
> It was not Leuchter who lied, but the prison managements. Perhaps now you
> understand.

Raven, present your _SINGLE_ best piece of evidence that the prison
management lied. 

Posted and emailed.

JGB

=====================================================================
Jeffrey G. Brown                                   jeff_brown@pol.com
 "What's going to happen?"   "Something wonderful..."   -- '2010'


Article 20361 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Revisionist answers
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References:  <3d9b8k$rkt@agate.berkeley.edu>
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 1994 05:31:55 GMT
Lines: 37

Richard Schultz (schultz@garnet.berkeley.edu) wrote:
: In article ,
: Greg Raven  wrote:

: >Not only has Leuchter worked for years as an engineer, not only does he
: >have patents in his name and numerous designs, but he has NOT been exposed
: >as a liar. Every forensic test at Auschwitz or Birkenau since the Leuchter
: >Report verifies his findings.

: Leuchter claimed that he had been a consultant to various prisons 
: regarding their technoloy for executions.  The management of those
: prisons denied that he had ever been a consultant for them.  That
: means that he was lying.  What part of this do you not understand?

: In Massachusetts, in order to call yourself an engineer, you need a
: certificate that says you are an engineer.  Leuchter claimed that
: he was an engineer, but had no certificate.  That makes him a liar.
: What part of this do you not understand?

: That you do not understand is clear, because you continue to post
: the same lies over and over as if you haven't seen the refutations.
: Clearly, you are operating under some definition of "lie" with
: which I am unfamiliar.

: >FALSE. You post and repost and repost yet again testimonies and other
: >irrelevant effluvia. If millions were gassed, there MUST be more evidence
: >than post-war "testimonies" from people who cannot even lie straight.

: You have been asked this question numerous times, although I have
: not seen an answer.  The claim is frequently made that Hoess's
: testimony was obtained under duress.  What evidence do you have that
: Hoess was tortured?
: --
: 				Richard Schultz

: "It is terrible to die of thirst in the ocean.  Do you have to salt your
: truth so heavily that it does not even quench thirst any more?"


Article 20365 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Where to find a Nazi gas chamber - no problem
Date: 22 Dec 1994 12:21:04 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 42
Message-ID: <3dcci0$6oo@access4.digex.net>
References: <1994Dec20.171420.21862@hobbes.kzoo.edu> <3d7dph$f4m@amhux3.amherst.edu> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net

In article ,
Greg Raven  wrote:
>So you are saying, then, that there are no gas chambers for us to look at,
>to examine? If there are, simply produce them.

    Obviously Greg Raven is not up on the latest "revisionist"
scholarship. 

    I refer him to Majdanek Bath and Delousing Building #1, Chamber #1. 
Unlike the Auschwitz Kremas, these buildings were not dynamited.  The
chamber contains Prussian Blue staining, proving that HCN was used there. 
Impossibly, Fred Leuchter says it could have been used to kill lice with
HCN but not people - even though lice are actually harder to kill with
HCN. 

    This alone proves that Leuchter has no idea what he is talking about. 
If it can kill lice, it can kill people - far more easily, in fact.  If it
takes a week to vent when used to kill people, it takes a week to vent
when used to kill lice, and therefore would seem to be equally unsuitable
for use as an HCN delousing chamber.  Yet it has the heater and
circulation system characteristic of such use, and the Prussian Blue
staining proves that it was used for that purpose at the very least.

    However, there are also pipes running from steel cylinders into the
chamber, consistent with the reported use of bottled CO and inconsistent
with any delousing function.  Even Fred Leuchter was forced to admit that
this chamber would be functional for CO execution.  Please refer to pp.
17-18 of the Leuchter Report. 

    Since it is the one he always refers to, the laughable Leuchter Report
is presumably Raven's BEST EVIDENCE that forensic analysis proves there
could have been no homicidal gas chambers. Yet even this document, when
read carefully, admits finding a structure which would be fully functional
as a homicidal gas chamber consistent with eyewitness testimony of such
usage.  Since even his own best evidence proves him wrong, I trust that
Greg Raven will now stop saying that no such structure exists. 

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


Article 20367 of alt.revisionism:
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From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Circular reasoning and "faster acting gasses"
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 1994 11:22:47 -0500
Organization: University of Michigan
Lines: 64
Message-ID: 
References: <1994Dec20.171420.21862@hobbes.kzoo.edu>
   <3d7dph$f4m@amhux3.amherst.edu>
   <3d7okk$atl@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
   
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm005-08.dialip.mich.net

greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) wrote:

> > 2) The gas chambers have, of course, been seen, and some can
> >    be seen today.
> 
> FALSE. If you think otherwise, show me a Nazi gas chamber.

This is sophistry, of course -- there are seven Nazi gas chambers in
varying states of preservation in Auschwitz/Birkenau.  The Reinhard
camps' gas chambers, of course, did not survive, being dismantled over
a year before the war's end.  I don't know much about Majdanek but I
gather its gas chamber was dismantled as well (corrections welcome).

Mr. Raven, of course, says that none of the seven in the Auschwitz
camp is a real gas chamber.  His argument thus runs as follows:

   * There are no Nazi gas chambers, because
   * No one can show me a Nazi gas chamber, because
   * There are no Nazi gas chambers.

> As for the Nazi experience with Zyklon B, they had plenty of experience
> with other, faster acting gasses as well. Why would they chose a
> slow-action pesticide when there are so many other better gasses?

Oh, now this is a good one.

Mr. Raven, please name one other "better" or "faster acting" gas.

I doubt you'll be able to do so.  HCN is incredibly fast-acting. 
Cyanide is so toxic it's used today in American gas chambers for
convicted criminals.  300 parts per _million_ will kill a human being
in just a few minutes.

And while "better" is a subjective term, I doubt a "better" gas could be
found.  It was available in quantity already, because it was being used
for delousing.  It is not inflammable at the concentrations used for
homicidal gassing.

I'm reminded of Friedrich Berg's claim that the Nazis could have come up
with much better, faster-acting means of killing at the Reinhard camps
besides diesel engines.  His suggestion was the CO-producer engines,
which, he proudly stated, gave off a concentration of carbon monoxide
in excess of twenty percent.  Well, Mr. Berg failed to mention that
that gas is highly flammable at that concentration;  in fact, the
output of those engines was used as fuel for other engines.  Had the
Nazis used that "better" means of killing Jews, the entire gas chamber
building would have gone up like a torch.

Shortly after I pointed that out, Mr. Berg left the net, never having
addressed my point.

I'll make a bold prediction here:  I'll predict that Mr. Raven will
never offer us a "better, faster acting gas" than the HCN produced
by Zyklon-B.  We can probably put this into a "questions Greg Raven
won't answer" file right now:

Mr. Raven, you have stated that Zyklon-B was a "slow-action pesticide,"
and that there were "many other better, faster acting gasses" from
which they could have chosen.  Would you please name one?
-- 
 Jamie McCarthy   Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu   AppleLink: j.mccarthy
 "The Jewish people will be exterminated...it's in our program."  - Himmler
 "Until you find a reference to gas chambers, you can forget about long,
  drawn-out discussions of Himmler's speeches."                     - Raven


Article 20368 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!sunserver.insinc.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!cat.cis.Brown.EDU!dzk
From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Liberation of the Camps: Facts vs. Lies
Date: 21 Dec 1994 21:01:09 GMT
Organization: Brown University
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <3da52l$gig@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu

Vicksell posted this old nonsense a few months ago. Comments
were made, and of course he didn't respond. Now, Raven posts
it again.

A few short comments:

1) It is simply a lie to state that Holocaust historians say
   that no gassing took place in the camps inside the "Old
   Reich" (Germany proper). I've quoted here the summary 
   published two years ago by the "Institute for Contemporary
   History" in Munich, naming seven camps inside the "Old
   Reich" in which gassing took place. It is true that the gassing
   was on a smaller scale than the gassing in the death camps
   the SS built in Nazi-occupied Poland.

2) The "revisionist" claim that people died in the camps inside
   the "Old Reich" mostly towards the end of the war, because
   lack of supplies etc, is another outright lie. In the very
   same letter of Dr. Broszat which is mentioned in the article
   posted, the following appears:



  in just the 12 months from July 1942 through June 1943, 
  110,812 people died according to official SS statistics in all of 
  the concentration camps of the Reich from disease and hunger.  
  
 

 Note! "Of the Reich" does not, of course, include the death
 camps in Poland. 

 3) The article mentions the testimony of Dr. Konrad Morgen.
    Of course, our "revisionist scholars" somehow "forgot"
    that Morgen also testified, at great length, about mass murder 
    by gas in Nazi camps.


-Danny Keren.



Article 20369 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!kmcvay
From: kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay)
Subject: Re: Revisionist evasion
References: <3d9b8k$rkt@agate.berkeley.edu>  
Organization: The Old Frog's Almanac
Message-ID: <1994Dec26.002256.15017@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
Date: Mon, 26 Dec 94 00:22:56 GMT

Jeff Brown responds to Greg-I'm-Not-The-IHR-.ihr:

>> It was not Leuchter who lied, but the prison managements. Perhaps now you
>> understand.

>Raven, present your _SINGLE_ best piece of evidence that the prison
>management lied. 

You GOTTA hand it to greg.ihr <--- NOT IHR, just ihr - no matter how
devastating or irrefutable a piece of evidence might be (in this
case, multiple pieces of evidence, from multiple prisons), he has a
stock answer.

There is no proof, there is no reality. There is only Raven's myopic
insistence upon whoppers the size of the Washington Monument and
then some. Raven seems to have a singularly pointed sort of malady:
he just can't see the forest for the trees.

No matter what you do, no matter what you say;
No matter how strong the evidence, or how unimpeachible the source;
No matter how valid the method, how numerous the documented proofs..

Mr. Raven will simply not see it.

He won't see your article.

He won't see any similar replies.

You can email it to him - he will acknowledge receipt, and then
claim not to have received it.

You can post it here, again and again, and Mr. Raven will not see
it.

You can, in fact, post the same article here, month after month, but
Mr. Raven will not see it.

Mr. Raven _does_ see some articles, but he is too busy to respond.

Mr. Raven actually _reads_ some articles, but he is still too busy
to respond.

Mr. Raven, we are given to understand, is a very busy man.

But Mr. Raven has all the time he needs to build his Non-IHR IHR WEB
page.

Mr. Raven has all the time he needs to publish Weber's tired
claptrap.

Mr. Raven has all the time he needs to publish that idiot O'Keefe.

But Mr. Raven does _not_ have time to deal with your post... just as
well, since he won't "see" it, anyway.

What you have not, and will not, see from Mr. Raven, are _facts_.

You might telephone the relevant officials, and interview them. You
might receive the same information from the United States Justice
Department, or the United States Bureau of Prisons, or whatever it's
called. Mr. Raven would not be impressed.

He has, you see, forgotten to take his own advice:

     "However, it is sophistry to proclaim that something must 
      have happened a certain way because your `reason' demands it." 

And there, in a nutshell, you have Mr. Raven.
He demands proof, and rejects it; his "reason" demands it.

He proclaims his racist vitriol as "something that must have
happened that way," and deomonstrates that "reason" demands it.

Sophistry, indeed.


-- 
"Mr XXXXXXX is obviously Jewish and a living  example of why the Nazis 
tried to remove Jews from Europe and short of that, into concentration 
camps for the duration of the war."        (Fritz Berg, June 26, 1994)
 ============================ Nizkor ================================


Article 20372 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!sunserver.insinc.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news2.near.net!cat.cis.Brown.EDU!dzk
From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Revisionist answers
Date: 21 Dec 1994 21:26:06 GMT
Organization: Brown University
Lines: 103
Message-ID: <3da6he$i2f@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu

Greg Raven  wrote:

# Easily. When you look at the population of Auschwitz-Birkenau, 
# and you look at the number of crematories the Germans usually 
# supplied per capita, you see that there is nothing out of the 
# ordinary about the number of crematories at Auschwitz-Birkenau, 
# especially given the deaths from typhus outbreaks. 

This is, possibly, the most stupid statement ever posted here
by a "revisionist scholar" (well, with "Doyal" excluded).

Let's see what Raven himself gave as the number of prisoners
at Auschwitz:

# For example, an internal German telex message dated Sept. 4, 1943,
# from the chief of the Labor Allocation department of the SS
# Economic and Administrative Main Office (WVHA), reported that of      
# 25,000 Jewish inmates in Auschwitz
 
and 
 
# This is also confirmed in a secret report dated April 5, 1944, on
# "security measures in Auschwitz" by Oswald Pohl, head of the SS
# concentration camp system, to SS chief Heinrich Himmler. Pohl reported
# that there was a total of 67,000 inmates in the entire Auschwitz camp
 
So, Raven is claiming that five crematoriums and 52 (!!) cremation
furnaces were needed for a few tens-of-thousands of people!

A little calculation, assuming 15 cremations per furnace per day
(although a much higher figure was obtained; also, assuming 70,000
prisoners):

Let's compute mortality rate per month:
 
(52*15*30*100)/70000 = 33.4
 
So, we're talking about a "work camp" in which about a third of
the "workers" die every month! Raven is simply insane.
 
Taking the average between the number of people in the camp in
the two dates he gave gives 46,000 and a mortality rate of
 
(52*15*30*100)/46000 = 50.8
 
So, here we have a "work camp" with about 51 percent of its
"workers" dying every month...

Raven may claim typhus caused all these deaths, but that's nearly
irrelevant. If typhus was killing half of the population every
month, why did they keep sending people there? That's just plain
murder, right?

This incredible cremation power was not for those who died in the
camp. It was mostly for those murdered upon arrival - about 85
percent of the deportees.
 
It's also important to emphasize that building these crematoriums
was a long process. They were not constructed in a week or so. This
is something that one does only if he knows he'll have to dispose
of a great many corpses for a length of time. Otherwise, if one
just expects peaks in the "death curve" here and there, he can
store the corpses in morgues and cremate them over some length
of time. One cannot do this if he's expecting a thousand or so
corpses per day - he'll run out of morgue space and will not be
able to dispose of all the corpses unless he has enough cremation
power to prevent accumulation of corpses.

# Not only has Leuchter worked for years as an engineer, 

So, he lied about his credentials. Big deal.

# Every forensic test at Auschwitz or Birkenau since the Leuchter
# Report verifies his findings.

The error is, of course, in the interpretation of the forensic
tests. Leuchter "forgot" that it takes a far longer exposure
to kill lice than people, hence the higher concentration of
cyanide compounds in the delousing chambers than in the gas
chambers. Really, we've been through this before.

# Hoess simply did not witness (nor order) any gassings.

Strange, the SS-men who were at Auschwitz, and Hoess himself,
hold a rather different opinion. Was Raven at Auschwitz
during WW2? If not, why does he claim all these people are
wrong and he is right? 

# FALSE. You post and repost and repost yet again testimonies and other
# irrelevant effluvia. 

Testimonies are relevant, and documents about gassing and mass
shootings are also relevant.

Re the letter about "lowering the death rate": I included a
similar letter, which asked that some Jews fit for work will
no longer be executed because the German army needs them for
forced labor. Raven, of course, edited it out. I'll post more
on this soon.


-Danny Keren.



Article 20373 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!garnet.berkeley.edu!schultz
From: schultz@garnet.berkeley.edu (Richard Schultz)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Greg's Back!
Date: 22 Dec 1994 12:17:22 GMT
Organization: Philosophers of the Dangerous Maybe
Lines: 11
Message-ID: <3dbqoi$r7n@agate.berkeley.edu>
References: <3cqhpl$6qg@sol.sun.csd.unb.ca>  <19DEC94.08960465.0073@unbvm1.csd.unb.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: garnet.berkeley.edu


And isn't it an *amazing* "coincidence" that Wayne McGuire announced 
that he was no longer reading alt.revisionism just days before Raven
showed up again?  And that after a long absence, "landpost" makes a
cameo appearance?  I would really love to see those guys try to 
disprove my theory that "Wayne McGuire" has no existence except as
a fictional creation of the two of them.
--
					Richard Schultz

"I seem to smell a peculiar and a fishlike smell."


Article 20376 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!garnet.berkeley.edu!schultz
From: schultz@garnet.berkeley.edu (Richard Schultz)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Revisionist answers
Date: 22 Dec 1994 12:24:15 GMT
Organization: Philosophers of the Dangerous Maybe
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <3dbr5f$r92@agate.berkeley.edu>
References:  <3d9b8k$rkt@agate.berkeley.edu> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: garnet.berkeley.edu

In article ,
Greg Raven  wrote:

>It was not Leuchter who lied, but the prison managements. Perhaps now you
>understand.

Yes, I understand that you are a complete lunatic.  If the prison
managements lied (i.e. perjured themselves in a court of law), why
didn't Leuchter at least sue them for libel (their public statements
are on record); why did he not sue them for his loss of business; why
did his lawyer not at least try to cross-examine the managements into 
revealing their perjury; why did not Leuchter try to lobby the authorities
to have these prison managements taken to court for their perjury?
--
					Richard Schultz

"You don't even have a clue as to which clue you're missing." -- Miss Manners


Article 20377 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!garnet.berkeley.edu!schultz
From: schultz@garnet.berkeley.edu (Richard Schultz)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Greg's Back! (was Re: Seven Questions)
Date: 22 Dec 1994 12:25:59 GMT
Organization: Philosophers of the Dangerous Maybe
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <3dbr8n$r99@agate.berkeley.edu>
References: <3cqhpl$6qg@sol.sun.csd.unb.ca>  <19DEC94.08960465.0073@unbvm1.csd.unb.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: garnet.berkeley.edu

In article ,
Greg Raven  wrote:

>Why not produce one? Remember, my original, still unanswered challenge is
>for you or anyone else to produce the BEST evidence that the Nazis had a
>plan or policy to gas the Jews during WWII. If you have that evidence,
>produce it.

Remember, my original, still unsatisfied challenge is for you or anyone
else to produce the BEST evidence that World War II even happened.  
Kleim tried, and failed miserably.  Go ahead, Raven, if you're such a hotshot
historian, it shouldn't be too tough.  Just provide me with the one or
two BEST pieces of evidence that World War II ever occurred.
--
					Richard Schultz

"I seem to smell a peculiar and a fishlike smell."


Article 20378 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!garnet.berkeley.edu!schultz
From: schultz@garnet.berkeley.edu (Richard Schultz)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Revisionist answers
Date: 22 Dec 1994 12:29:00 GMT
Organization: Philosophers of the Dangerous Maybe
Lines: 14
Message-ID: <3dbrec$r9n@agate.berkeley.edu>
References:  <3da6he$i2f@cat.cis.brown.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: garnet.berkeley.edu

In article <3da6he$i2f@cat.cis.brown.edu>,
Danny Keren  wrote:

>This is, possibly, the most stupid statement ever posted here
>by a "revisionist scholar" (well, with "Doyal" excluded).

With all due respect to Dr. Keren, I find this statement tremendously
unfair to Tim "landpost" McCarthy.  He regularly posted comments of
a stupidity level that Doyal, Raven, Vicksell, Smith, Kleim, et al.
can only dream of.
--
					Richard Schultz

"A fool always finds a greater fool to admire him." -- Nicolas Boileau


Article 20381 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Liberation of the Camps: Facts vs. Lies
In-Reply-To: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com's message of Wed, 21 Dec 1994 21:14:01 -0800
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
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Date: Thu, 22 Dec 1994 06:43:09 GMT
Lines: 25


From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
>> >Dr. Larson [...] informed Wichita Eagle reporter Jan Floerchinger that
>> >"never was a case of poison gas uncovered."
>> 
>> Of course not.  Those gassed were cremated.
>
>Very glib. Now, can you support that statement with any evidence?

Sure! Hoss himself:

	During my visit to Kumhof I also saw the extermination installation,
	with the lorry which had been set up for killing by means of motor
	exhaust fumes. The head of the Kommando told me that this method,
	however, was very unreliable, as the gas build-up was very irregular
	and was often insufficient for killing.

        Rudolf Hoss, Commandant of Auschwitz, on a visit to Chelmno
        on 16 September 1942

-- 
        -Barry Shein

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Article 20383 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Liberation of the camps
In-Reply-To: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com's message of Wed, 21 Dec 1994 21:22:15 -0800
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References: 
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 1994 06:48:36 GMT
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
>It is true that "Holocaust" historians are now backtracking on earlier
>statements regarding the location of the "gas chambers." However, they
>have no evidence of ANY gas chambers ANYWHERE. If this statement is in
>error SHOW ME A NAZI GAS CHAMBER.

If the only evidence you will accept is a Nazi gas chamber then
clearly you are not to be taken seriously.

What's your problem with, for examples, memos written between Nazi
officers during the regular course of their duties describing the
gassings etc?

I know I know, forgeries all forgeries.

Well, then how would you know that a gas chamber wasn't some sort of
forgery?

Who do you think you're kidding? You're just raving.

Why do you suppose Hitler boasted about exterminating the Jews of
Central and Eastern Europe in his Last Will & Testament?

I know, more forgeries, so fucking convenient Raven...a pat answer for
everything.

Truth be told if you were shown a working gas chamber you wouldn't be
satisfied in the slightest, you'd just claim it was a phony (so easy
to speak those words) and be off and running (at the mouth) again...

				 =//=

"Since December 1941, for example, 97,000 were processed using three
vans, without any faults occuring in the vehicles."

        Dr August Becker on 5 June 1942 to SS-Obersturmbannfuhrer Rauff

"Apart from that I gave orders that all men should stand as far away
as possible from van during the gassings, so that their health would
not be damaged by any escaping gases. I would like to take this
opportunity to draw your attention to the following: Some of the
Kommandos are using their own men to unload the vans after the
gassing. I have made commanders of the Sonderkommandos in question
aware of the enormous psychological and physical damage this work can
do to the men, if not immediately then at a later stage."

        Dr August Becker on 16 May 1942 to SS-Obersturmbannfuherer Rauff

-- 
        -Barry Shein

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Article 20384 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Revisionist answers
In-Reply-To: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com's message of Wed, 21 Dec 1994 21:24:19 -0800
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References: 
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Date: Thu, 22 Dec 1994 06:52:45 GMT
Lines: 30


From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
>> Leuchter claimed that he had been a consultant to various prisons 
>> regarding their technoloy for executions.  The management of those
>> prisons denied that he had ever been a consultant for them.  That
>> means that he was lying.  What part of this do you not understand?
>
>It was not Leuchter who lied, but the prison managements. Perhaps now you
>understand.

Oh, so nice that you know all this better than the courts. And why
exactly would these prison managements want to lie about a thing like
this to a court of law? That's a serious charge, Raven, tho I realize
you don't even take yourself seriously so spout any nonsense that
suits your point of view.

So why hasn't Leuchter successfully dragged them into court? I mean,
they destroyed his career and seemed to have forced him into becoming
a professional Nazi apologist for a living.

Cah-mahn, even you revisionists seem to have been convinced that the
Leuchter Report is severely flawed. Doesn't stop y'all from selling it
to the rubes tho.


-- 
        -Barry Shein

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Article 20388 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Liberation of the Camps: Facts vs. Lies
In-Reply-To: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com's message of Tue, 20 Dec 1994 22:16:09 -0800
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References: 
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 1994 22:01:14 GMT
Lines: 265


Ah, revisionism at its "best"...follow the bouncing lies, a textbook
example to work with:

From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
> And when the testimony, and the
>verdict, at Nuremberg incorporated most, if not all, of the horror stories
>Americans were told about Dachau, Buchenwald, and other places captured by

                           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ (note 1)          ^^^^^^^^^^^

>the U.S. Army, the Holocaust could pass for one of the most documented,

 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ (note 2)

>one of the most authenticated, one of the most proven historical episodes
>in the human record.

Note the set-up here for the gullible:

1. Dachau and Buchenwald were in Germany proper (what the Nazis called
the Altreich or Old Reich.)

There were no *mass* gassing facilities in Germany proper.

2. The *US Army* did not capture the worst extermination facilities
which were primarily in Poland (Auschwitz, Birkenau.) The Russian Army
did.

Raven and the revisionists know that most people won't know things
like this, or won't have such counter-facts readily at hand. So watch
as the truth is slowly twisted out of shape as Raven works the
crowd...

>But it is known today that, very soon after the liberation of the camps,
>American authorities were aware that the real story of the camps was quite

 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ (note 3)

>different from the one in which they were coaching military public
>information officers, government spokesmen, politicians, journalists, and
>other mouthpieces.

3. Who? Name names. Surely such a massive conspiracy to fabricate the
truth, as Raven claims, must after 50 years be identifiable with
someone?! No doubt hundreds of "someones". Who are these people? Why
the vague appeal to "American authorities"?

Why? Because the IHR and Raven tend to fish for people who are just
knee-jerk anti-authoritarian and this sort of language appeals to such
people (and gets them to send in their $$$ to Raven et al.)

>Dr. Larson performed autopsies
>at Dachau and some twenty other German camps, examining on some days more
>than 100 corpses. After his grim work at Dachau, he was questioned for
>three days by U.S. Army prosecutors. (note 1)

NOTE: *German* camps, in the Altreich (ie, not Poland etc.) There were
no mass gassing facilities in this Altreich.

And now the one-two punch:

>"never was
>a case of poison gas uncovered."

Certainly not in the Altreich, which is where Larson's observations
were limited to.

Even this is a stretch, certainly the T4 Euthanasia programs, the ones
where the Nazis were killing their own mentally handicapped children,
occurred in the Altreich. And apparently some of these were killed by
poison gas (carbon monoxide.)

But there's no reason why Larson would have discovered any evidence of
this since that program stopped several years before at the protest of
people influential within the Nazi govt itself (eg, clergy who were
understandably horrified when they began to find out that the Nazis
were killing their own children.) Basically, T4 was conducted in
secret, and when the secret got out the Nazis stopped.

>Neither Dr. Larson nor any other
>forensic specialist has ever been cited by any Holocaust historian to
>substantiate a single case of death by poison gas, whether Zyklon-B or any
>other variety.

We've already disposed of Larson, he wasn't at the sites where poison
gas was used.

I'm sure you can also get forensic specialists who have never left
Brooklyn to agree that they never personally witnessed a case of
poison gas being used by the Nazis. So what? Stop people you meet on
the street and ask them if they would affirm that they have never
personally witnessed such a thing. I'm sure you would get plenty of
people to agree they never have. Then quote them. Is that an argument?
That's all Raven et al are saying above, they've found someone who did
not look at evidence of poison gassing. Whoop-dee-doo.

>If not by gassing, how did the unfortunate victims at Dachau, Buchenwald,
>and Bergen- Belsen perish?

Again this interesting list.

Where is Auschwitz in this list, where most of the mass extermination
went on? Where is Sobibor and Treblinka? That is, the camps in Poland
where mass gassing facilities were being used?

See the half-truths? The twisting and bending?!

>The answers to these questions are known as well. As Dr. Larson
>and other Allied medical men discovered, the chief cause of death at
>Dachau, Belsen, and the other camps was disease, above all typhus

And no one has particularly claimed otherwise, AT THOSE PARTICULAR
CAMPS.

>Such was the case in the
>overcrowded internment camps in Germany at war's end, where, despite such
>measures as systematic delousing, quarantine of the sick, and cremation of
>the dead, the virtual collapse of Germany's food, transport, and public
>health systems led to catastrophe.

But ask the hard questions: *WHEN* did this collapse occur? Why didn't
typhus and starvation etc kill millions of German citizens also by the
war's end?

ALERT: The usual answer by revisionists is to respond that many German
civilians *did* suffer from malnutrition as a result of the war. But
what they're referring to in that answer is that this occurred AFTER
THE WAR WAS OVER. Since the camp deaths they're discussing occurred
before war's end that's irrelevant to the point, even if terribly
unfortunate and capable of evoking sympathy. WATCH THE HALF-TRUTHS,
make them compare apples to apples, not apples to oranges.

>Dr. Gordon reported in 1948 that "The outbreaks in concentration
>camps and prisons made up the great bulk of typhus infection encountered
>in Germany."
 ^^^^^^^^^^

IN GERMANY, meaning the Altreich, meaning OTHER THAN THE EXTERMINATION
CAMPS LOCATED IN POLAND.

>"Thousands of prisoners who died at the
>Bergen-Belsen concentration camp during World War II weren't deliberately
>starved to death but died from a rash of diseases."

At Bergen-Belsen perhaps thousands do fit this description.

What about the other tens of thousands who also died at Bergen-Belsen?
They were dying there for several years before these conditions
occurred.

NOTICE THE HALF-TRUTHS!

>Despite noisily publicized claims and widespread popular notions to the
>contrary, no researcher has been able to document a German policy of
>extermination through starvation in the German camps.

A. In the German camps (again.)

B. When Raven says "no researcher has been able to document a GERMAN
POLICY [emphasis mine]" he means:

	1. Document TO HIS (RAVEN'S) PERSONAL SATISFACTION,
	which is often bizarre and self-serving.

	2. Is very, very specifically referring to a German
	POLICY, a memo that says "starve the bastards", not
	whether or not it actually happened, a DOCUMENTED POLICY.
	The SS who ran most of these camps were quite secretive
	and the Nazi high-command in general avoided any
	documentation of what they were up to for obvious
	reasons. Hitler gave such commands verbally, only, to
	avoid anything that might come back to haunt him. And
	when the Nazis realized they were losing the war they
	went to great lengths to destroy what evidence might
	still exist.

	But why then, when all is said and done, does Hitler
	write in his Last Will & Testament:


	``Eternal gratitude will be owed to National Socialism
	because I exterminated the Jews in Germany and Central
        Europe''.

All Raven is saying is that you cannot produce a memo which either was
never written or destroyed (it's difficult to say which.)

That's quite different from saying it didn't happen!

He's just saying you'd have problems finding a memo with Hitler's or
one of the other Nazi high-command's signature on it ordering this.

WATCH THE HALF-TRUTHS!

Of course, we have hundreds (probably thousands) of eyewitness
accounts.

But as Raven has stated over and over: He does not admit eyewitness
accounts as being of any value. He absolutely insists that these are
never, ever counted as proof of anything.

Why? Beats me, other than it serves the house of cards reasoning he
presents in tracts like this one.

>As with Dachau, so with Buchenwald, Bergen- Belsen, and the other camps
>captured by the Allies. There was no end of propaganda about "gas
>chambers," "gas ovens," and the like, but so far not a single detailed
>description of the murder weapon and its function, not a single report of
>the kind that is mandatory for the successful prosecution of any assault
>or murder case in America at that time and today, has come to light.

Note again the focus entirely on German (Altreich) camps and gas.

But what about the GASSING FACILITIES which were located in POLAND!?

Tricky? Maybe slimey is a better word.

>Furthermore, a number of Holocaust authorities have now publicly decreed
>that there were no gassings, no extermination camps in Germany after all!

Again!

>All these things, we are told, were located in what is now Poland, in
>areas captured by the Soviet Red Army and off-limits to Western
>investigators.

Aha!

>In 1960 Dr. Martin Broszat, who is now director of the
>Munich-based Institute for Contemporary History, which is funded by the
>West German government to support the Holocaust story, wrote a letter to
>the German weekly Die Zeit in which he stated categorically: "Neither in
>Dachau nor in Bergen-Belsen nor in Buchenwald were Jews or other prisoners
>gassed."

But these are all, again, in Germany, not Poland. So what has this to
do with that sentence that immediately preceded it?

Nothing.

Raven is trying to work the gullible.

>Professional Nazi-hunter Simon Wiesenthal wrote in 1975
>that "there were no extermination camps on German soil."

Yes, so???

What about Auschwitz, Birkenau, Treblinka, Sobibor, etc?

The POLISH camps?

What in the world is Raven getting at? There were no gassing
facilities in Los Angeles either. I'm sure Raven can prove that also.
So what?

I hope this little exercise in Raven's and the IHR's cheap and tawdry
lying and half-truths has been enlightening.


-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
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Article 20391 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Greg's Back! (was Re: Seven Questions)
In-Reply-To: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com's message of Wed, 21 Dec 1994 21:31:16 -0800
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References: <3cqhpl$6qg@sol.sun.csd.unb.ca>
	
	<19DEC94.08960465.0073@UNBVM1.CSD.UNB.CA>
	
	
	
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 1994 06:59:27 GMT
Lines: 49


From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
>> Including, for example, memos written between Nazi officers DURING THE
>> WAR describing their dastardly duties.
>
>Why not produce one?

Raven, you are a f*cking scum low-life liar. This is beyond belief.

You've asked for this dozens of times.

They've been produced for you dozens of times.

You've ignored them and simply typed in this bullshit again dozens of
time.

WHO THE HELL DO YOU THINK YOU ARE KIDDING?

Scum.

Go away, no one is fooled by you anymore.

It's unbelievable how twisted you are.

I don't give a shit what you believe or don't believe, you're a
deluded lunatic who will claim to believe whatever suits you, you just
press the keys and there it is!

All I'm interested in is making sure you don't take others in with
your lies. Your soul is beyond saving.

>Remember, my original, still unanswered challenge is
>for you or anyone else to produce the BEST evidence that the Nazis had a
>plan or policy to gas the Jews during WWII. If you have that evidence,
>produce it.

Yes, and it's been produced over and over and over, even according to
your own ridiculous standards.

Never made a bit of difference to you.

That's because what you really need is medical attention, not
evidence.

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
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Article 20392 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Himmler, Poznan, and Raven
In-Reply-To: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com's message of Tue, 20 Dec 1994 22:25:08 -0800
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References: <1994Dec20.171420.21862@hobbes.kzoo.edu> <3d7dph$f4m@amhux3.amherst.edu>
	<3d7okk$atl@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
	
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 1994 22:08:36 GMT
Lines: 40


From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
>As for the Nazi experience with Zyklon B, they had plenty of experience
>with other, faster acting gasses as well. Why would they chose a
>slow-action pesticide when there are so many other better gasses?

What utter crap! Zyklon-B was cheap and accessible, it was made in
Germany and was used by the Nazi Army (and others) for delousing and
other deverminization.

It was based on cyanide gas, one of the most effective poisons for
killing humans there is in that it's cheap and fast and does the job.
Slow-acting? What do you base this on? Exactly how long are you
personally willing to sit in an enclosed room after Zyklon-B is
introduced? A few good whiffs and you'd be an ex-Raven.

And why in the world would they bother to set up yet another war
industry to produce a mass extermination gas when they could just get
truckloads of Zyklon-B cheap and "off the shelf"?

You've gone off the deep-end here.

Is that your argument? That the Nazis didn't kill anyone because
maybe, in theory, better poisons might have been available???

Zyklon-B was cheap, it was available, it was being manufactured in
Germany for other purposes (deinfestation of barracks, shipholds,
etc.)

What next? That the Nazis never shot anyone because better bullets
might have been available?

Do you ever read what you write?


-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 20393 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Greg's Back! (was Re: Seven Questions)
In-Reply-To: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com's message of Tue, 20 Dec 1994 22:27:19 -0800
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References: <3cqhpl$6qg@sol.sun.csd.unb.ca>
	
	<19DEC94.08960465.0073@UNBVM1.CSD.UNB.CA>
	
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 1994 22:11:20 GMT
Lines: 25


From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
>And please, make sure there are no "testimonies" or other specious garbage
>in this "May the 4th" post you are so eager for me to respond to.

Raven claims that no US-style court could convict the Nazis of murder.

And then rejects 100% eye-witness testimonies.

Including, for example, memos written between Nazi officers DURING THE
WAR describing their dastardly duties.

Is this guy a nut-case or what?

Can you imagine the judge in the OJ Simpson case insisting that the
prosecution not allow any eye-witness testimony because Greg Raven
believes it's remotely possible they could be lying?!

Raven, give it up, you're a clown, a pathetic clown.

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 20395 of alt.revisionism:
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From: golux@mcs.com (The only Golux in the World, and not a mere Device)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Greg's Back! (was Re: Seven Questions)
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 1994 20:14:16 -0600
Organization: MCSNet Services
Lines: 40
Message-ID: 
References: <3cqhpl$6qg@sol.sun.csd.unb.ca>  <19DEC94.08960465.0073@UNBVM1.CSD.UNB.CA> <1994Dec21.195757.20767@oneb.almanac.bc.ca> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: golux.pr.mcs.net

In article ,
greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) wrote:

> In article <1994Dec21.195757.20767@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>,
> kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay) wrote:
> 
> > By the way, the article in question will be published again, on the
> > 4th. of January - the eighth anniversary, so to speak, of its
> > original appearance.
> 
> I thought anniversaries came yearly.
> 
> Nevermind. I certainly wouldn't ask you to produce that post now, while my
> Internet connection seems to (sort of) work and I sort of have time to
> respond. No, no. Much better to way a couple of weeks or so.

Gee, Greg, how come your Internet connection only seems to be flaky
whenever you are asked questions you don't want to answer?  In fact, I
believe the so-called "May 4 Article" has been posted multiple times --
once a month since at least July or August, if I recall correctly -- and
emailed to you on at least one occasion.  To refresh your memory, the
article contained ten items, and was presented in response to your
original (nonsensical) request for the "best evidence" of the Holocaust. 
You have yet to respond to the article, although you have danced around
one or two of the items it contained.  For a time, your mantra seemed to
be "Is this the single best piece of evidence?"

Now, of course, your mantra is "Show me a Nazi gas chamber."  Perhaps you
could explain how, in the world of the Internet anyone is supposed to do
so.  Or perhaps you will just admit that by demanding an actual Nazi gas
chamber, what you are really saying is that you have no intention of
addressing any evidence.

Posted/emailed

-- 
D. J. Schaeffer |       The Todal looks like a blob of glup.
golux@mcs.com   |     It makes a sound like rabbits screaming,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^        and smells of old, unopened rooms.
                            -- Thurber, _The 13 Clocks_


Article 20399 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mattk@summit.novell.com (Kaufman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Liberation of the camps
Date: 23 Dec 1994 23:25:44 GMT
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X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]

Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com) wrote:

: It is true that "Holocaust" historians are now backtracking on earlier
: statements regarding the location of the "gas chambers." However, they
: have no evidence of ANY gas chambers ANYWHERE. If this statement is in
: error SHOW ME A NAZI GAS CHAMBER.
 

Do you get the Discovery channel wherever you are? Just this week
they aired a documentary on the T4 program called 'Selling Murder,' which
included some footage from Nazi anti-disabled propaganda films, and
a staging of a script for some movie justifying the T4 program.
In one of the films, they showed a homicidal gas chamber in use. 
Oddly, Mr. Hoffman's list of evil anti-nazi propaganda didn't include
this film, guess that means its telling the truth.

In addition, the documenters showed footage of a gas chamber in Hadamar,
and had a few lucky survivors of the program (adults who had escaped
the program as children through luck.) They (the adults) recounted how
the gassing worked. Apparently victimes were crowded into a room,
the door hermetically sealed, and carbon monoxide pumped in (from bottles.)

The exhibited gas chambers are still there in Hadamar. So, go take
a look. Or, contact your local cable TV provider and ask them
when they'll be airing this program. You can videotape it over one
of those Cole documentaries if you want to put a videotape to good use.

Matt
--
"Where do you find  |copyright 1994, mattk@summit.novell.com. All rights
these Addam's men?" |reserved. Permission for reproduction by USENET and like
                    |free facilities explicitly allowed. No other reproduction
"It has to be damp."|rights are granted or implied.


Article 20403 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!uunet!world!bzs
From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Liberation of the camps
In-Reply-To: mattk@summit.novell.com's message of 23 Dec 1994 23:25:44 GMT
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References: 
	<3dfm9o$ml7@bird.summit.novell.com>
Date: Sat, 24 Dec 1994 02:55:51 GMT
Lines: 59


See, this is it (attached below), Raven's remark and Kaufman's
response are this entire lunatic holocaust-denier thing in a nutshell.

Raven simply asserts there is no evidence of any Nazi gas chamber
anywhere.

Kaufman hands him back the simplest and and most uncontestable
evidence possible.

Yet Raven will merely go on to assert this again and again and will
ignore Kaufman's remarks (and everyone else's, or toss them off with
"forgeries all forgeries".)

Why? Because Raven is a liar, and is working the crowd. Raven knows
that most people have no real personal experience regarding the
evidence and that if he confronts enough of them with a bold assertion
that there exists absolutely no evidence for homicidal gassing some
will say to themselves, well, hmm, I've never seen any really, so
perhaps this Raven fellow has a point? He seems to know a lot about
the subject.

There has to be some center in hell, some peculiarly painful and
loathsome place of God's own design, for people like Raven.


From: mattk@summit.novell.com (Kaufman)
>Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com) wrote:
>
>: It is true that "Holocaust" historians are now backtracking on earlier
>: statements regarding the location of the "gas chambers." However, they
>: have no evidence of ANY gas chambers ANYWHERE. If this statement is in
>: error SHOW ME A NAZI GAS CHAMBER.
> 
>
>Do you get the Discovery channel wherever you are? Just this week
>they aired a documentary on the T4 program called 'Selling Murder,' which
>included some footage from Nazi anti-disabled propaganda films, and
>a staging of a script for some movie justifying the T4 program.
>In one of the films, they showed a homicidal gas chamber in use. 
>Oddly, Mr. Hoffman's list of evil anti-nazi propaganda didn't include
>this film, guess that means its telling the truth.
>
>In addition, the documenters showed footage of a gas chamber in Hadamar,
>and had a few lucky survivors of the program (adults who had escaped
>the program as children through luck.) They (the adults) recounted how
>the gassing worked. Apparently victimes were crowded into a room,
>the door hermetically sealed, and carbon monoxide pumped in (from bottles.)
>
>The exhibited gas chambers are still there in Hadamar. So, go take
>a look. Or, contact your local cable TV provider and ask them
>when they'll be airing this program. You can videotape it over one
>of those Cole documentaries if you want to put a videotape to good use.

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 20409 of alt.revisionism:
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From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Revisionist answers
Date: Sat, 24 Dec 1994 11:37:39 -0500
Organization: University of Michigan
Lines: 27
Message-ID: 
References: 
   
   
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm005-09.dialip.mich.net

greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) wrote:

> My Iway connection is too flakey to get into all of this, so I'll stop
> here at the first error. My "assertion" includes references to two
> scholarly works on EXACTLY THIS TOPIC. Please read the material referred
> to before continuing.

I'll simply repeat the two paragraphs to which Mr. Raven is responding.
(Actually, he deleted the second one.)  I stand by what I wrote in the
first place:  it _is_ proof by assertion, and Usenet discussion _doesn't_
work that way.  You want to argue a point, you quote or paraphrase your
"scholarly works";  you don't simply say "person X agrees with me."

I wrote:

Proof by assertion.  They say there's nothing out of the ordinary about
the enormous capacity of the Auschwitz cremation furnaces, so therefore
it's OK.

Sorry, it doesn't work that way, Mr. Raven.  Present an argument from
this book of Mattogno's (published by whom, please?), or summarize Butz's
position for us.
-- 
 Jamie McCarthy   Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu   AppleLink: j.mccarthy
 "The Jewish people will be exterminated...it's in our program."  - Himmler
 "Until you find a reference to gas chambers, you can forget about long,
  drawn-out discussions of Himmler's speeches."                     - Raven


Article 20411 of alt.revisionism:
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From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Circular reasoning and "faster acting gasses"
Date: Sat, 24 Dec 1994 12:08:18 -0500
Organization: University of Michigan
Lines: 115
Message-ID: 
References: <1994Dec20.171420.21862@hobbes.kzoo.edu>
   <3d7dph$f4m@amhux3.amherst.edu>
   <3d7okk$atl@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
   
   
   
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm005-09.dialip.mich.net

Circular reasoning at its best.  Let's review.

I believe Danny Keren started it by saying:

> 2) The gas chambers have, of course, been seen, and some can
>    be seen today.

Greg Raven replied:

> FALSE. If you think otherwise, show me a Nazi gas chamber.

In other words, "there are no Nazi gas chambers, because you can't
show me a Nazi gas chamber."

I wrote:

> ...there are seven Nazi gas chambers in
> varying states of preservation in Auschwitz/Birkenau. ...
> Mr. Raven, of course, says that none of the seven in the Auschwitz
> camp is a real gas chamber.  His argument thus runs as follows:
>
>    * There are no Nazi gas chambers, because
>    * No one can show me a Nazi gas chamber, because
>    * There are no Nazi gas chambers.

Mr. Raven replied:

> FALSE. There are buildings and rooms that are presented as having been
> gas chambers, but none of them could have operated as such.

In other words, "you can't show me a Nazi gas chamber, because
there are no Nazi gas chambers."

You've once again made my point for me, Mr. Raven.  Thank you.

> Every test and examination of these facilities confirms this.

By "every test," Mr. Raven, did you have anything in mind other than the
utterly worthless Leuchter Report?  Just curious.


Next we come to the question of "faster-acting gases."  Mr. Raven wrote:

> As for the Nazi experience with Zyklon B, they had plenty of experience
> with other, faster acting gasses as well. Why would they chose a
> slow-action pesticide when there are so many other better gasses?

Zyklon-B is not a gas.  It's the trademarked name for pellets which
deliver that gas.  The gas that Zyklon-B delivers is hydrogen cyanide,
HCN.  Note that I'm not the one who confused the issue;  reread the
above paragraph and you'll clearly see that Mr. Raven refers to
Zyklon-B as a gas.

I challenged him:

> Mr. Raven, please name one other "better" or "faster acting" gas.
> 
> I doubt you'll be able to do so.  HCN is incredibly fast-acting. 

And he responded by confusing the issue:

> Really? American gas chambers use Zyklon B? No, I didn't think so.

Note the sudden switch from claiming that there are "better gasses" to
claiming that there are better delivery systems than Zyklon-B.

> You are
> muddling matters again. Zyklon B is the tradename for a product that
> contains HCN, but the REASON for using the inert carrier with the
> Zyklon B is to SLOW THE RATE at which the Zyklon B gasses off.

I'm not the one muddling matters, Mr. Raven.  In fact I expend a fair
amount of effort to educate people as to the difference between
Zyklon-B and the gas it emits.  You are the one who confused the two in
your first article.

I'm still waiting for you to provide one of those "so many other
better gasses," Mr. Raven.

> In an American gas chamber, they drop pellets into a mild acid solution
> to achieve very fast gas-off,

But the Nazis were not concerned with being humane.

> and it STILL takes over 8 minutes before the
> accused is dead. With Zyklon B, the gassing-off process would barely have
> begun in the 10-20 minutes commonly given by "eyewitness testimony" for
> the time of the Nazi gassings.

I disagree.

Your source for this assertion is...?

> If it is technically impossible for the gassings to have taken place, then
> they could not have.

Absolutely, unquestionably true.

Now provide me with one shred of evidence that it was "technically
impossible" for the Nazis to simply drop in as much Zyklon-B as was
required to get the job done.

Proof by assertion, as in your "would barely have begun" quote above, is
no proof at all.  Provide me with one single shred of evidence, or
expert opinion, or computer analysis, or technical data, or anything,
that backs up your claim that the process "would barely have begun."

Or admit that you have none.

Emailed to Mr. Raven.
-- 
 Jamie McCarthy   Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu   AppleLink: j.mccarthy
 "The Jewish people will be exterminated...it's in our program."  - Himmler
 "Until you find a reference to gas chambers, you can forget about long,
  drawn-out discussions of Himmler's speeches."                     - Raven


Article 20423 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!sunserver.insinc.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!darkstar.UCSC.EDU!news.hal.COM!decwrl!netcomsv!netcom.com!codfish
From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Liberation of the Camps: Facts vs. Lies
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References:  <3d9g1j$3fh@jabba.cybernetics.net>  <3dct05$d00@jabba.cybernetics.net>
Date: Sun, 25 Dec 1994 07:10:37 GMT
Lines: 27

Chip Salzenberg (chip@cybernetics.net) wrote:
: According to greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven):
: >In article <3d9g1j$3fh@jabba.cybernetics.net>, chip@cybernetics.net (Chip
: >Salzenberg) wrote:
: >> According to greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven):
: >> >Dr. Larson [...] informed Wichita Eagle reporter Jan Floerchinger that
: >> >"never was a case of poison gas uncovered."
: >> 
: >> Of course not.  Those gassed were cremated.
: >
: >Very glib. Now, can you support that statement with any evidence?

: Not that would satisfy you, apparently.  I based my statement on the
: evidence already posted to alt.revisionism by Keren, Shein, and McVay,
: among others, and backed up by an Auschwitz survivor whom I know.

: You archivists:  Thank you.  Keep up the good work.

: You deniers:  

The laugh's on you.  Auschwitz is in Poland, not the Altreich.

: -- 
:               Chip Salzenberg, aka 
:   "Don't move!"  *BANG*  "You have the right to remain silent!"  *BANG!*
:     "Anything you say can and will be used against you!"  *SPLASH*
:                -- Tom Servo, MST3K: "High School Bigshot"


Article 20427 of alt.revisionism:
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From: chip@cybernetics.net (Chip Salzenberg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Liberation of the Camps: Facts vs. Lies
Date: 25 Dec 1994 17:27:04 GMT
Organization: Creative Cybernetics, Inc.
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <3dka18$2vf@jabba.cybernetics.net>
References:   <3dct05$d00@jabba.cybernetics.net> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: server0.cybernetics.net

According to codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell):
>The laugh's on you.  Auschwitz is in Poland, not the Altreich.

Oops.  Quite right.  My mistake.

Take two: "Never was a case of poison gas uncovered" -- because the
mass gassings (as opposed to experiments and small-scale operations)
took place in areas that the American army didn't reach.

(I could believe that the same was true of Auschwitz, too.  It's
plausible that all gassed corpses were disposed of before the SS
fled.)
-- 
              Chip Salzenberg, aka 
  "Don't move!"  *BANG*  "You have the right to remain silent!"  *BANG!*
    "Anything you say can and will be used against you!"  *SPLASH*
               -- Tom Servo, MST3K: "High School Bigshot"


Article 20428 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!sunserver.insinc.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news1.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access3.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Liberation of the Camps: Facts vs. Lies
Date: 25 Dec 1994 12:33:34 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 44
Message-ID: <3dkade$4g3@access3.digex.net>
References:   <3dct05$d00@jabba.cybernetics.net> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access3.digex.net

In article ,
Ross Vicksell  wrote:
>Chip Salzenberg (chip@cybernetics.net) wrote:
>: According to greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven):
>: >In article <3d9g1j$3fh@jabba.cybernetics.net>, chip@cybernetics.net (Chip
>: >Salzenberg) wrote:
>: >> According to [Ted O'Keefe as posted by] greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg 
>: >>Raven):
>: >> >Dr. Larson [...] informed Wichita Eagle reporter Jan Floerchinger that
>: >> >"never was a case of poison gas uncovered."
>: >> 
>: >> Of course not.  Those gassed were cremated.
>: >
>: >Very glib. Now, can you support that statement with any evidence?
>
>: Not that would satisfy you, apparently.  I based my statement on the
>: evidence already posted to alt.revisionism by Keren, Shein, and McVay,
>: among others, and backed up by an Auschwitz survivor whom I know.
>
>: You archivists:  Thank you.  Keep up the good work.
>
>: You deniers:  
>
>The laugh's on you.  Auschwitz is in Poland, not the Altreich.

    The paragraph in question did not seem to be limited to the Altreich -
or at least I think that's the impression O'Keefe wanted to convey.  But
while the camps were running smoothly, as far as I know, _everyone_ (even
those who died of genuine natural causes) was cremated.  So Dr. Larson's
investigation of the corpses found at the end of the war really isn't
proof that nobody was gassed earlier, and investigation of corpses at
Dachau isn't proof that there were no gassings at Auschwitz.  I wonder if 
Dr. Larson found any shooting or hanging victims?  If he didn't, does 
this mean that nobody in any camp was ever shot or hung?

    Were there any credible eyewitness accounts of gassings at Dachau?  
Any confessions?  Such a lack, compared to Auschwitz, Treblinka, Sobibor, 
and Belzec, is much more significant than a pathologist's report on those 
who died only during the final days of the war.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


Article 20438 of alt.revisionism:
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Liberation of the Camps: Facts vs. Lies
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 1994 21:14:01 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 20
Message-ID: 
References:  <3d9g1j$3fh@jabba.cybernetics.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan009.kaiwan.com

In article <3d9g1j$3fh@jabba.cybernetics.net>, chip@cybernetics.net (Chip
Salzenberg) wrote:

> According to greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven):
> >Dr. Larson [...] informed Wichita Eagle reporter Jan Floerchinger that
> >"never was a case of poison gas uncovered."
> 
> Of course not.  Those gassed were cremated.

Very glib. Now, can you support that statement with any evidence?

-- 
Greg Raven
mailto:greg.ihr@kaiwan.com
http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr
-----------------------------------------------------
For free information about the IHR, write to:
IHR, P.O. Box 241556, Newport Beach, CA 92659
Journal of Historical Review, $40 (6 issues per year)
The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, by Dr. Arthur Butz, $10 + $2 shipping


Article 20439 of alt.revisionism:
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From: golux@mcs.com (The only Golux in the World, and not a mere Device)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Raven Wrong Again
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 1994 21:13:26 -0600
Organization: MCSNet Services
Lines: 23
Message-ID: 
References: <3cqhpl$6qg@sol.sun.csd.unb.ca>  <19DEC94.08960465.0073@UNBVM1.CSD.UNB.CA>  <3daf65$31p@access4.digex.net> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: golux.pr.mcs.net

In article , bzs@world.std.com (Barry
Shein) wrote:

> From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
> >     Greg, don't you ever stop giving out misinformation?  It is a
> >well-known fact that _everyone's_ Internet provider is the worst on the
> >planet. 
> 
> 
> Not mine, mine's the best on the planet. Hell, it *is* the planet.
> 
> (Warning: I have massive personal financial interests in expressing
> that opinion, but it happens to be true :-)

I can vouch for the quality of Barry's Internet service provider (although
I hear the guy who runs it is a whacko ;-)  Unfortunately, having moved
well out of its area code, I no longer use it.

-- 
D. J. Schaeffer |       The Todal looks like a blob of glup.
golux@mcs.com   |     It makes a sound like rabbits screaming,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^        and smells of old, unopened rooms.
                            -- Thurber, _The 13 Clocks_


Article 20441 of alt.revisionism:
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From: hmazal@aol.com (HMazal)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Greg's Back! (was Re: Seven Questions)
Date: 25 Dec 1994 16:51:31 -0500
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 14
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <3dkph3$k98@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: 
Reply-To: hmazal@aol.com (HMazal)

Mr. Raven states:

>Remember, my original, still unanswered challenge is
>for you or anyone else to produce the BEST evidence that the Nazis had a
>plan or policy to gas the Jews during WWII. If you have that evidence,
>produce it.


The BEST (emphasis by Mr. Raven) evidence, to my mind, is that which
deniers like Mr. Raven reject.

Harry W. Mazal in San Antonio




Article 20442 of alt.revisionism:
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Liberation of the camps
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 1994 21:22:15 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 61
Message-ID: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan009.kaiwan.com

In article <3da52l$gig@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>, dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) wrote:

> Vicksell posted this old nonsense a few months ago. Comments
> were made, and of course he didn't respond. Now, Raven posts
> it again.

You yourself often post old nonsense. You should allow others the same courtesy.

> A few short comments:
> 
> 1) It is simply a lie to state that Holocaust historians say
>    that no gassing took place in the camps inside the "Old
>    Reich" (Germany proper). I've quoted here the summary 
>    published two years ago by the "Institute for Contemporary
>    History" in Munich, naming seven camps inside the "Old
>    Reich" in which gassing took place. It is true that the gassing
>    was on a smaller scale than the gassing in the death camps
>    the SS built in Nazi-occupied Poland.

It is true that "Holocaust" historians are now backtracking on earlier
statements regarding the location of the "gas chambers." However, they
have no evidence of ANY gas chambers ANYWHERE. If this statement is in
error SHOW ME A NAZI GAS CHAMBER.

> 2) The "revisionist" claim that people died in the camps inside
>    the "Old Reich" mostly towards the end of the war, because
>    lack of supplies etc, is another outright lie. In the very
>    same letter of Dr. Broszat which is mentioned in the article
>    posted, the following appears:
>
> 
> 
>   in just the 12 months from July 1942 through June 1943, 
>   110,812 people died according to official SS statistics in all of 
>   the concentration camps of the Reich from disease and hunger.  
>   camps in Poland. 

Source, please? Anyone who maintains that casualties were not highest
toward the end of the war is either lying or delusional.

>  3) The article mentions the testimony of Dr. Konrad Morgen.
>     Of course, our "revisionist scholars" somehow "forgot"
>     that Morgen also testified, at great length, about mass murder 
>     by gas in Nazi camps.

Not at all. In fact, I have mentioned him before in another post. Morgen
thought he could get himself out of a jam by testifying to all kinds of
things. Later, when that testimony was turned against him in another
trial, he changed his tune, and fast. This is but one example of why
testimony is such a fragile thing. Why not just show us a Nazi gas chamber
and get it over with?

-- 
Greg Raven
mailto:greg.ihr@kaiwan.com
http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr
-----------------------------------------------------
For free information about the IHR, write to:
IHR, P.O. Box 241556, Newport Beach, CA 92659
Journal of Historical Review, $40 (6 issues per year)
The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, by Dr. Arthur Butz, $10 + $2 shipping


Article 20444 of alt.revisionism:
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Revisionist answers
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 1994 21:24:19 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 37
Message-ID: 
References:  <3d9b8k$rkt@agate.berkeley.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan009.kaiwan.com

In article <3d9b8k$rkt@agate.berkeley.edu>, schultz@garnet.berkeley.edu
(Richard Schultz) wrote:

> In article ,
> Greg Raven  wrote:
> 
> >Not only has Leuchter worked for years as an engineer, not only does he
> >have patents in his name and numerous designs, but he has NOT been exposed
> >as a liar. Every forensic test at Auschwitz or Birkenau since the Leuchter
> >Report verifies his findings.
> 
> Leuchter claimed that he had been a consultant to various prisons 
> regarding their technoloy for executions.  The management of those
> prisons denied that he had ever been a consultant for them.  That
> means that he was lying.  What part of this do you not understand?

It was not Leuchter who lied, but the prison managements. Perhaps now you
understand.

> In Massachusetts, in order to call yourself an engineer, you need a
> certificate that says you are an engineer.  Leuchter claimed that
> he was an engineer, but had no certificate.  That makes him a liar.
> What part of this do you not understand?

FALSE. Only a small fraction of engineers must get the "certificate:"
those who deal with structural matters. Leuchter, like tens of thousands
of other Mass. engineers, needed no certificate.

-- 
Greg Raven
mailto:greg.ihr@kaiwan.com
http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr
-----------------------------------------------------
For free information about the IHR, write to:
IHR, P.O. Box 241556, Newport Beach, CA 92659
Journal of Historical Review, $40 (6 issues per year)
The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, by Dr. Arthur Butz, $10 + $2 shipping


Article 20445 of alt.revisionism:
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Revisionist answers
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 1994 21:25:43 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 38
Message-ID: 
References:  
NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan009.kaiwan.com

In article ,
k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

> This is one of the more amazing series of outright lies we've seen.
> But I'd expect no less from Mr. Raven.
> 
> greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) wrote:
> 
> > dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) wrote:
> > 
> > > Why does a "work camp" have 52 large cremation furnaces? The
> > > "revisionists" don't deny this fact. Can they explain it? 
> > 
> > Easily. When you look at the population of Auschwitz-Birkenau, and you
> > look at the number of crematories the Germans usually supplied per capita,
> > you see that there is nothing out of the ordinary about the number of
> > crematories at Auschwitz-Birkenau, especially given the deaths from typhus
> > outbreaks. Check Mattogno's new book for all the details. Butz also gave a
> > speech at the 1992 IHR Conference about this very issue.
> 
> Proof by assertion.  They say there's nothing out of the ordinary about
> the enormous capacity of the Auschwitz cremation furnaces, so therefore
> it's OK.

My Iway connection is too flakey to get into all of this, so I'll stop
here at the first error. My "assertion" includes references to two
scholarly works on EXACTLY THIS TOPIC. Please read the material referred
to before continuing.

-- 
Greg Raven
mailto:greg.ihr@kaiwan.com
http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr
-----------------------------------------------------
For free information about the IHR, write to:
IHR, P.O. Box 241556, Newport Beach, CA 92659
Journal of Historical Review, $40 (6 issues per year)
The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, by Dr. Arthur Butz, $10 + $2 shipping


Article 20447 of alt.revisionism:
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Greg's Back! (was Re: Seven Questions)
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 1994 21:29:33 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 53
Message-ID: 
References: <3cqhpl$6qg@sol.sun.csd.unb.ca>  <19DEC94.08960465.0073@UNBVM1.CSD.UNB.CA>  <3d9hvf$jo5@nyx10.cs.du.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan009.kaiwan.com

In article <3d9hvf$jo5@nyx10.cs.du.edu>, choover@nyx10.cs.du.edu
(Christopher Hoover) wrote:

> greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) writes:
> 
> >In article <19DEC94.08960465.0073@UNBVM1.CSD.UNB.CA>, Keith Morrison
> > wrote:
> 
> >> In article 
> >greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) writes:
> >> 
> >> I am so honoured you have answered me.  I would, however, rather you
> >> answer to questions put to you repeatedly since May the 4th, 1994,
> >> in a post that I've seen repeated multiple times since September but
> >> which you seem inevitably to fail answering.  Since you obviously
> >> have the time to answer me, surely you can spare the but few moments
> >> it will take for your vast knowledge and historiographic skills to
> >> reply.
> 
> >I would so much rather that you and others, instead of saying "May the
> >4th," as if that has any meaning whatsoever, simply post the item(s)
> >again. It's no secret that I have perhaps the worst Internet provider on
> >the planet, but eventually, if you keep reposting this under some name I
> >can recognize, I will respond.
> 
> I might suggest to Mr. Raven that this particular disingenuous veneer 
> wore thin several months ago.  Anyone who has given this newsgroup even 
> the most sporadic attention in the last several months by now is well 
> aware that Mr. Raven has seen the post in question repeatedly.  It has 
> been reposted to this newsgroup any number of times.  It has been 
> e-mailed to Mr. Raven.  He has, I believe, even acknowledged receipt of 
> the May 4th material in e-mail (correct me if I'm wrong here, Jamie).  


You see what I mean? I ask for the material to be reposted, and this is
what I get!  

It might also be said that anyone who even casually visits this newsgroup
knows that I routinely discard all e-mailed forwards from alt.revisionism.

I'll say it again: I think this "evidence" that they have that they call
the "May 4th" post is actually nothing more than a bunch of disjointed
testimonies and other non-sequitors.

-- 
Greg Raven
mailto:greg.ihr@kaiwan.com
http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr
-----------------------------------------------------
For free information about the IHR, write to:
IHR, P.O. Box 241556, Newport Beach, CA 92659
Journal of Historical Review, $40 (6 issues per year)
The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, by Dr. Arthur Butz, $10 + $2 shipping


Article 20448 of alt.revisionism:
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Greg's Back! (was Re: Seven Questions)
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 1994 21:31:16 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 24
Message-ID: 
References: <3cqhpl$6qg@sol.sun.csd.unb.ca>  <19DEC94.08960465.0073@UNBVM1.CSD.UNB.CA>  
NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan009.kaiwan.com

In article , bzs@world.std.com (Barry
Shein) wrote:

> Raven claims that no US-style court could convict the Nazis of murder.
> 
> And then rejects 100% eye-witness testimonies.
> 
> Including, for example, memos written between Nazi officers DURING THE
> WAR describing their dastardly duties.

Why not produce one? Remember, my original, still unanswered challenge is
for you or anyone else to produce the BEST evidence that the Nazis had a
plan or policy to gas the Jews during WWII. If you have that evidence,
produce it.

-- 
Greg Raven
mailto:greg.ihr@kaiwan.com
http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr
-----------------------------------------------------
For free information about the IHR, write to:
IHR, P.O. Box 241556, Newport Beach, CA 92659
Journal of Historical Review, $40 (6 issues per year)
The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, by Dr. Arthur Butz, $10 + $2 shipping


Article 20449 of alt.revisionism:
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Greg's Back! (was Re: Seven Questions)
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 1994 21:32:56 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 22
Message-ID: 
References: <3cqhpl$6qg@sol.sun.csd.unb.ca>  <19DEC94.08960465.0073@UNBVM1.CSD.UNB.CA> <1994Dec21.195757.20767@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan009.kaiwan.com

In article <1994Dec21.195757.20767@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>,
kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay) wrote:

> By the way, the article in question will be published again, on the
> 4th. of January - the eighth anniversary, so to speak, of its
> original appearance.

I thought anniversaries came yearly.

Nevermind. I certainly wouldn't ask you to produce that post now, while my
Internet connection seems to (sort of) work and I sort of have time to
respond. No, no. Much better to way a couple of weeks or so.

-- 
Greg Raven
mailto:greg.ihr@kaiwan.com
http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr
-----------------------------------------------------
For free information about the IHR, write to:
IHR, P.O. Box 241556, Newport Beach, CA 92659
Journal of Historical Review, $40 (6 issues per year)
The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, by Dr. Arthur Butz, $10 + $2 shipping


Article 20450 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mstein@access.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Liberation of the Camps: Facts vs. Lies
Date: 22 Dec 1994 20:44:18 -0600
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 24
Sender: nobody@cs.utexas.edu
Message-ID: <199412230244.AA27422@access3.digex.net>
References:  <3d9g1j$3fh@jabba.cybernetics.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: news.cs.utexas.edu

In article ,
Greg Raven  wrote:
>In article <3d9g1j$3fh@jabba.cybernetics.net>, chip@cybernetics.net (Chip
>Salzenberg) wrote:
>
>> Of course not.  Those gassed were cremated.
>
>Very glib. Now, can you support that statement with any evidence?

    The remains of cremation ovens at Auschwitz, plus documents relating
to the purchase and installation of said ovens from Topf, plus the
photograph of open pit burning reproduced in both Pressac and Butz's own
book, provide both physical and documentary evidence to support eyewitness
testimony that gassing victims were cremated as opposed to being buried.  

    Indeed, it would have been rather silly to have gone to all the
trouble and expense of purchasing 52 large cremation ovens and then not
use them even one time.  As somebody else once said, IUm surprised you
donUt see this. 
--
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


Article 20452 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Revisionist answers
Date: 22 Dec 1994 11:07:36 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <3dc888$2tn@access4.digex.net>
References:  <3d9b8k$rkt@agate.berkeley.edu> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net

In article ,
Greg Raven  wrote:
>In article <3d9b8k$rkt@agate.berkeley.edu>, schultz@garnet.berkeley.edu
>(Richard Schultz) wrote:
>> Leuchter claimed that he had been a consultant to various prisons 
>> regarding their technoloy for executions.  The management of those
>> prisons denied that he had ever been a consultant for them.  That
>> means that he was lying.  What part of this do you not understand?
>
>It was not Leuchter who lied, but the prison managements. Perhaps now you
>understand.

    Prove it.  What is your BEST EVIDENCE that the prison managements
lied?


>> In Massachusetts, in order to call yourself an engineer, you need a
>> certificate that says you are an engineer.  Leuchter claimed that
>> he was an engineer, but had no certificate.  That makes him a liar.
>> What part of this do you not understand?
>
>FALSE. Only a small fraction of engineers must get the "certificate:"
>those who deal with structural matters. Leuchter, like tens of thousands
>of other Mass. engineers, needed no certificate.

     When did you pass the Massachusetts bar, Greg?  Can you cite all the
relevant state laws - especially the one under which the state government
moved against Leuchter?  Can you explain why, if the law was on his side
and Leuchter was not violating any state law by advertising himself as an
engineer, he nevertheless entered into a consent decree with the state? 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


Article 20458 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!kmcvay
From: kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay)
Subject: Re: Greg's Back! (was Re: Seven Questions)
References: <19DEC94.08960465.0073@UNBVM1.CSD.UNB.CA> <1994Dec21.195757.20767@oneb.almanac.bc.ca> 
Organization: The Old Frog's Almanac
Message-ID: <1994Dec27.133422.27914@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 94 13:34:22 GMT

In article  greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) writes:

>In article <1994Dec21.195757.20767@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>,
>kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay) wrote:

>> By the way, the article in question will be published again, on the
>> 4th. of January - the eighth anniversary, so to speak, of its
>> original appearance.

>I thought anniversaries came yearly.

>Nevermind. I certainly wouldn't ask you to produce that post now, while my
>Internet connection seems to (sort of) work and I sort of have time to
>respond. No, no. Much better to way a couple of weeks or so.

Perhaps, Mr. Raven, you should learn to use the server here, which,
as I have explained before, will happily provide the article in
question upon email demand.

Just address an email message, Mr. Raven, to
LISTSERV@ONEB.ALMANAC.BC.CA, and put the following line in the
message itself:

GET HOLOCAUST/USA/IHR RAVEN.002

That's all Mr. Raven needs to do to obtain the article in question -
no need to wait until the 4th. of January.

-- 
"Mr XXXXXXX is obviously Jewish and a living  example of why the Nazis 
tried to remove Jews from Europe and short of that, into concentration 
camps for the duration of the war."        (Fritz Berg, June 26, 1994)
 ============================ Nizkor ================================


Article 20459 of alt.revisionism:
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Circular reasoning and "faster acting gasses"
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 1994 21:39:24 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 61
Message-ID: 
References: <1994Dec20.171420.21862@hobbes.kzoo.edu> <3d7dph$f4m@amhux3.amherst.edu> <3d7okk$atl@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>  
NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan009.kaiwan.com

In article ,
k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

> greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) wrote:
> 
> > > 2) The gas chambers have, of course, been seen, and some can
> > >    be seen today.
> > 
> > FALSE. If you think otherwise, show me a Nazi gas chamber.
> 
> This is sophistry, of course -- there are seven Nazi gas chambers in
> varying states of preservation in Auschwitz/Birkenau.  The Reinhard
> camps' gas chambers, of course, did not survive, being dismantled over
> a year before the war's end.  I don't know much about Majdanek but I
> gather its gas chamber was dismantled as well (corrections welcome).

FALSE. There are buildings and rooms that are presented as having been gas
chambers, but none of them could have operated as such. Every test and
examination of these facilities confirms this.


> > As for the Nazi experience with Zyklon B, they had plenty of experience
> > with other, faster acting gasses as well. Why would they chose a
> > slow-action pesticide when there are so many other better gasses?
> 
> Oh, now this is a good one.
> 
> Mr. Raven, please name one other "better" or "faster acting" gas.
> 
> I doubt you'll be able to do so.  HCN is incredibly fast-acting. 
> Cyanide is so toxic it's used today in American gas chambers for
> convicted criminals.  300 parts per _million_ will kill a human being
> in just a few minutes.

Really? American gas chambers use Zyklon B? No, I didn't think so. You are
muddling matters again. Zyklon B is the tradename for a product that
contains HCN, but the REASON for using the inert carrier with the Zyklon B
is to SLOW THE RATE at which the Zyklon B gasses off.

In an American gas chamber, they drop pellets into a mild acid solution to
achieve very fast gas-off, and it STILL takes over 8 minutes before the
accused is dead. With Zyklon B, the gassing-off process would barely have
begun in the 10-20 minutes commonly given by "eyewitness testimony" for
the time of the Nazi gassings.

The rooms shown as gas chambers for mass killings could not have
functioned as such, and the gas allegedly used would have taken hours (or
days) to work, not minutes, as is commonly claimed.

If it is technically impossible for the gassings to have taken place, then
they could not have.

-- 
Greg Raven
mailto:greg.ihr@kaiwan.com
http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr
-----------------------------------------------------
For free information about the IHR, write to:
IHR, P.O. Box 241556, Newport Beach, CA 92659
Journal of Historical Review, $40 (6 issues per year)
The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, by Dr. Arthur Butz, $10 + $2 shipping


Article 20461 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!kmcvay
From: kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay)
Subject: Re: Circular reasoning and "faster acting gasses"
References:   
Organization: The Old Frog's Almanac
Message-ID: <1994Dec27.232644.578@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 94 23:26:44 GMT

In article  greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) writes:

>FALSE. There are buildings and rooms that are presented as having been gas
>chambers, but none of them could have operated as such. Every test and
>examination of these facilities confirms this.

Hmmm... I have the Leuchter Report at hand... let's see if Fred can
lend a hand...

In section 12.003, Leuchter identifies blue stains in the room,
which he says is consistent with the Birkenau stains found in the
Birkenau delousing facility. In short, the room could have
functioned as a gas chamber. Leuchter then demonstrates some
interesting word-play, when he first notes the existence of two roof
vents, which he says were used for venting after a delousing
procedure. He then says "no stack for venting" exists, and, because
of that, says it could not have been used as a gas chamber.

Let's see: He clearly states there are stains on the walls.
           He identified two ceiling vents.
	   He disclaims a "ventilation stack."
	   He claims, but does not establish, that Zyklon B
		would have had to be placed on the floor.

I'd say Leuchter has demonstrated the existence of a working gas
chamber. His assumptions seem confusing, and are probably flawed,
but there is no doubt the gas chamber exists there to this day.

He then goes on to describe two "experimental" gas chambers, and his
fuzzy logic is unsupported by any evidence - i.e. he assumes that it
would take a week to vent one of the chambers, but fails to support
this assertion with any evidence. (See 17.004 for a full description
of Chamber 1, which includes Leuchter's unsupported assertions
relating to the intake/exhaust pipes.)

>
>
>> > As for the Nazi experience with Zyklon B, they had plenty of experience
>> > with other, faster acting gasses as well. Why would they chose a
>> > slow-action pesticide when there are so many other better gasses?
>> 
>> Oh, now this is a good one.
>> 
>> Mr. Raven, please name one other "better" or "faster acting" gas.
>> 
>> I doubt you'll be able to do so.  HCN is incredibly fast-acting. 
>> Cyanide is so toxic it's used today in American gas chambers for
>> convicted criminals.  300 parts per _million_ will kill a human being
>> in just a few minutes.
>
>Really? American gas chambers use Zyklon B? No, I didn't think so. You are
>muddling matters again. Zyklon B is the tradename for a product that
>contains HCN, but the REASON for using the inert carrier with the Zyklon B
>is to SLOW THE RATE at which the Zyklon B gasses off.
>
>In an American gas chamber, they drop pellets into a mild acid solution to
>achieve very fast gas-off, and it STILL takes over 8 minutes before the
>accused is dead. With Zyklon B, the gassing-off process would barely have
>begun in the 10-20 minutes commonly given by "eyewitness testimony" for
>the time of the Nazi gassings.
>
>The rooms shown as gas chambers for mass killings could not have
>functioned as such, and the gas allegedly used would have taken hours (or
>days) to work, not minutes, as is commonly claimed.
>
>If it is technically impossible for the gassings to have taken place, then
>they could not have.
>
>-- 
>Greg Raven
>mailto:greg.ihr@kaiwan.com
>http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr
>-----------------------------------------------------
>For free information about the IHR, write to:
>IHR, P.O. Box 241556, Newport Beach, CA 92659
>Journal of Historical Review, $40 (6 issues per year)
>The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, by Dr. Arthur Butz, $10 + $2 shipping


-- 
"Mr XXXXXXX is obviously Jewish and a living  example of why the Nazis 
tried to remove Jews from Europe and short of that, into concentration 
camps for the duration of the war."        (Fritz Berg, June 26, 1994)
 ============================ Nizkor ================================


Article 20462 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!kmcvay
From: kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay)
Subject: Re: Circular reasoning and "faster acting gasses"
References:   
Organization: The Old Frog's Almanac
Message-ID: <1994Dec27.233024.659@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 94 23:30:24 GMT

In article  greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) writes:

>In article ,
>k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

>> greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) wrote:
 
>> > > 2) The gas chambers have, of course, been seen, and some can
>> > >    be seen today.
 
>> > FALSE. If you think otherwise, show me a Nazi gas chamber.
 
>> This is sophistry, of course -- there are seven Nazi gas chambers in
>> varying states of preservation in Auschwitz/Birkenau.  The Reinhard
>> camps' gas chambers, of course, did not survive, being dismantled over
>> a year before the war's end.  I don't know much about Majdanek but I
>> gather its gas chamber was dismantled as well (corrections welcome).

>FALSE. There are buildings and rooms that are presented as having been gas
>chambers, but none of them could have operated as such. Every test and
>examination of these facilities confirms this.

You accept the Leucher report as "every test and examination," or do
you also refer to others? If so, which tests and examinations do you
include? (Why do you exclude wartime tests and examinations?)

>> > As for the Nazi experience with Zyklon B, they had plenty of experience
>> > with other, faster acting gasses as well. Why would they chose a
>> > slow-action pesticide when there are so many other better gasses?
 
>> Oh, now this is a good one.
 
>> Mr. Raven, please name one other "better" or "faster acting" gas.

Yes, please do... we've been waiting for some time to see what you
can come up with. 

>> I doubt you'll be able to do so.  HCN is incredibly fast-acting. 
>> Cyanide is so toxic it's used today in American gas chambers for
>> convicted criminals.  300 parts per _million_ will kill a human being
>> in just a few minutes.

>Really? American gas chambers use Zyklon B? No, I didn't think so. You are
>muddling matters again. Zyklon B is the tradename for a product that
>contains HCN, but the REASON for using the inert carrier with the Zyklon B
>is to SLOW THE RATE at which the Zyklon B gasses off.

Where, Mr. Raven, did Jamie mention Zyklon B in the paragraph you
responded to? Did I miss something, or have you replaced your myopia
with a new, highly-creative, type of vision?

-- 
"Mr XXXXXXX is obviously Jewish and a living  example of why the Nazis 
tried to remove Jews from Europe and short of that, into concentration 
camps for the duration of the war."        (Fritz Berg, June 26, 1994)
 ============================ Nizkor ================================


Article 20463 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!uhog.mit.edu!news.kei.com!world!bzs
From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Circular reasoning and "faster acting gasses"
In-Reply-To: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com's message of Wed, 21 Dec 1994 21:39:24 -0800
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References: <1994Dec20.171420.21862@hobbes.kzoo.edu> <3d7dph$f4m@amhux3.amherst.edu>
	<3d7okk$atl@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
	
	
	
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 1994 07:08:06 GMT
Lines: 46


From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
>In an American gas chamber, they drop pellets into a mild acid solution to
>achieve very fast gas-off, and it STILL takes over 8 minutes before the
>accused is dead. With Zyklon B, the gassing-off process would barely have
>begun in the 10-20 minutes commonly given by "eyewitness testimony" for
>the time of the Nazi gassings.
>
>The rooms shown as gas chambers for mass killings could not have
>functioned as such, and the gas allegedly used would have taken hours (or
>days) to work, not minutes, as is commonly claimed.

This is incredibly transparent bullshit.

Zyklon-B was a commercial cyanide fumigant used primarily to kill lice
(and other vermin.) Do we agree so far? Good.

Killing lice requires much higher concentrations of the cyanide
Zyklon-B gives off to do its job. Lice are not as susceptible to
cyanide poisoning as warm-blooded animals, such as rats or humans.

Do we still agree?

So what can we conclude from your stupid claim?

That it would take hours? days? weeks? months? what? to fumigate a
space for lice with Zyklon-B?

Ridiculous. Or do you know claim Zyklon-B doesn't hurt lice either?

I realize it won't make a whit of difference to you, but at least
everyone else is chuckling in the right places now.

I'll ask again: So how long exactly are *you* willing to sit in such a
closed room while we pour in the Zyklon-B to prove your point?

Hah.

Schmuck.


-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 20465 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Circular reasoning and "faster acting gasses"
Date: 22 Dec 1994 07:29:10 GMT
Organization: Brown University
Lines: 47
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References: <1994Dec20.171420.21862@hobbes.kzoo.edu>   
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Greg Raven  wrote:

# FALSE. There are buildings and rooms that are presented as having been 
# gas chambers, but none of them could have operated as such. 

Plain rubbish, refuted here many times. There is no reason those
buildings and rooms could not have served as gas chambers. There are
still cyanide traces on their walls, as even our "revisionist 
scholars" admit.

# Every test and
# examination of these facilities confirms this.

No test and no examination confirms Raven's insane assertion. If
he claims this, let's see these "tests and examinations".
 
# Really? American gas chambers use Zyklon B? No, I didn't think so.

True, but they use the same gas (HCN). A different method of
generating it is used, but that's not a big difference.

Zyklon-B was used because it was cheap, available, and the SS had
great experience in using it. 

# You are
# muddling matters again. Zyklon B is the tradename for a product that
# contains HCN, but the REASON for using the inert carrier with the Zyklon B
# is to SLOW THE RATE at which the Zyklon B gasses off.

Relatively slow, yes, which is why a much higher concentration than
the lethal one was used. So, only a small portion of the gas had
to evaporate to cause death.

# The rooms shown as gas chambers for mass killings could not have
# functioned as such, and the gas allegedly used would have taken hours (or
# days) to work, not minutes, as is commonly claimed.

This is insanity. Raven has gone of the deep end. If you close
people in a room and throw Zyklon-B inside, with a concentration
about as the one used for delousing (which is far higher than the
concentration lethal for people) they will died quite fast.

I will soon write Degesch (the firm that used to manufacture the
Zyklon) and get their response on this matter.


-Danny Keren.


Article 20472 of alt.revisionism:
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From: hmazal@aol.com (HMazal)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Circular reasoning and "faster acting gasses"
Date: 22 Dec 1994 23:25:44 -0500
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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References: 
Reply-To: hmazal@aol.com (HMazal)

I would suggest, Mr. Raven, that the final corroboration of your statement
regarding Zyklon B's slow acting action could be the following:

You will stand in a sealed closet and allow pellets of Zyklon B to be
dropped at your feet. Your stay in the closet will be accurately timed. At
exactlyfifteen minutes, the door will be opened. If you are alive, your
statement that Zyklon is slow acting will stand. If not...

Would you care to take up the challenge in the name of science, sir?

Harry W. Mazal in San Antonio, Texas


Article 20473 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Liberation of the camps
Date: 22 Dec 1994 07:44:24 GMT
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Greg Raven  wrote:
# dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) wrote:
 
##  1) It is simply a lie to state that Holocaust historians say
##     that no gassing took place in the camps inside the "Old
##     Reich" (Germany proper). I've quoted here the summary 
##     published two years ago by the "Institute for Contemporary
##     History" in Munich, naming seven camps inside the "Old
##     Reich" in which gassing took place. It is true that the gassing
##     was on a smaller scale than the gassing in the death camps
##     the SS built in Nazi-occupied Poland.
 
# It is true that "Holocaust" historians are now backtracking on earlier
# statements regarding the location of the "gas chambers." 
 
No they are not. Raven simply invents these lies and posts
them, this is incredible. The man can't tell reality from
his hallucinations anymore. 
 
# However, they
# have no evidence of ANY gas chambers ANYWHERE. If this statement is in
# error SHOW ME A NAZI GAS CHAMBER.
 
In Auschwitz I, for instance.
 
##  2) The "revisionist" claim that people died in the camps inside
##     the "Old Reich" mostly towards the end of the war, because
##     lack of supplies etc, is another outright lie. In the very
##     same letter of Dr. Broszat which is mentioned in the article
##     posted, the following appears:
## 
##  
##  
##    in just the 12 months from July 1942 through June 1943, 
##    110,812 people died according to official SS statistics in all of 
##    the concentration camps of the Reich from disease and hunger.  
##    camps in Poland. 
 
# Source, please? Anyone who maintains that casualties were not highest
# toward the end of the war is either lying or delusional.
 
Source? Raven can't read. Broszat wrote this *in the same letter*
that was mentioned in the IHR article!!
 
##   3) The article mentions the testimony of Dr. Konrad Morgen.
##      Of course, our "revisionist scholars" somehow "forgot"
##      that Morgen also testified, at great length, about mass murder 
##      by gas in Nazi camps.
 
# Not at all. In fact, I have mentioned him before in another post. Morgen
# thought he could get himself out of a jam by testifying to all kinds of
# things. Later, when that testimony was turned against him in another
# trial, he changed his tune, and fast. 
 
What?? When did Morgen "change his tune"? Why did he try to "get
himself out of a jam?". What was he accused of?
 
 
-Danny Keren.


Article 20476 of alt.revisionism:
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From: goldida@mail.auburn.edu (Daniel Golding)
Subject: Re: Revisionist answers
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Date: Fri, 23 Dec 1994 08:07:01 GMT
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Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com) wrote:
: In article <3d9b8k$rkt@agate.berkeley.edu>, schultz@garnet.berkeley.edu
: (Richard Schultz) wrote:

: > In article ,
: > Greg Raven  wrote:
: > 
: > >Not only has Leuchter worked for years as an engineer, not only does he
: > >have patents in his name and numerous designs, but he has NOT been exposed
: > >as a liar. Every forensic test at Auschwitz or Birkenau since the Leuchter
: > >Report verifies his findings.
: > 
: > Leuchter claimed that he had been a consultant to various prisons 
: > regarding their technoloy for executions.  The management of those
: > prisons denied that he had ever been a consultant for them.  That
: > means that he was lying.  What part of this do you not understand?

: It was not Leuchter who lied, but the prison managements. Perhaps now you
: understand.

: > In Massachusetts, in order to call yourself an engineer, you need a
: > certificate that says you are an engineer.  Leuchter claimed that
: > he was an engineer, but had no certificate.  That makes him a liar.
: > What part of this do you not understand?

: FALSE. Only a small fraction of engineers must get the "certificate:"
: those who deal with structural matters. Leuchter, like tens of thousands
: of other Mass. engineers, needed no certificate.

As an would-be engineer, please let me state that Mr. Raven is lying. To 
call yourself a professional engineer and to authenticate any type of 
plans in any field of engineering one must be certfied as a professional 
engineer. And to posit that _anyone_ having an engineering degree (or a PE 
certification) is qualified to analyze the walls of a gas chamber for 
traces of chemical used their decades ago is quite strange. Just what 
tests were used, Mr.Raven? What were the actual numerical results? Who 
verified the result? In science, there is a word for unverified result. 
Rubbish.


: -- 
: Greg Raven
: mailto:greg.ihr@kaiwan.com
: http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr
: -----------------------------------------------------

Dan Golding
Auburn University


Article 20479 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Himmler, Poznan, and Raven
Date: 21 Dec 1994 23:13:07 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 20
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NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

In article ,
Greg Raven  wrote:
>In article <3d7okk$atl@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>,
>dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) wrote:
>>    [...] No one asks that the A-bomb dropped on
>>    Hiroshima, for instance, be produced.
>
>Nonsense. Forensics testing could easily determine what had happened at
>the drop sites (grounds zero?) in Japan.

    Really?  How?

    During the Iraq war, I remember reading about something called a 
fuel-air bomb which could be rigged to give a blast within shouting 
distance of a small fission warhead.  Combine one of those with a 
scattering of radioactive waste and perhaps some magnesium....
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


Article 20482 of alt.revisionism:
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From: jeff_brown@pol.com (Jeffrey G. Brown)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Himmler, Poznan, and Raven
Date: 23 Dec 1994 04:11:47 GMT
Organization: Internet Access Cincinnati 513-887-8877
Lines: 20
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In article ,
greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) wrote:

> I find it difficult to
> believe that anything approaching a fair legal system could convict an
> entire peoples of millions of death by gassing without producing even one
> little gas chamber.

Citation, please: the date, place, presiding judge(s), names of
prosecution and defense attorneys, and the verdict (verbatim) as rendered,
in the trial that "convict[ed] an entire peoples of millions of death".

Posted and emailed, in hopes of compensating for Raven's severe case of
ARMS (Acquired Revisionist Myopia Syndrome).

JGB

=====================================================================
Jeffrey G. Brown                                   jeff_brown@pol.com
 "What's going to happen?"   "Something wonderful..."   -- '2010'


Article 20505 of alt.revisionism:
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From: simon1@bu.edu (Simon Streltsov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Revisionist answers
Date: 26 Dec 1994 17:30:51 GMT
Organization: Boston University
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: >> Leuchter claimed that he had been a consultant to various prisons 
: >> regarding their technoloy for executions.  The management of those
: >> prisons denied that he had ever been a consultant for them.  That
: >> means that he was lying.  What part of this do you not understand?


 United Press International 1989

                      September 17, 1989, Sunday, BC cycle

SECTION: Regional News

DISTRIBUTION: Tennessee

LENGTH: 363 words

HEADLINE: 'Old Sparky' gets high tech facelift

DATELINE: NASHVILLE, Tenn.

 BODY:
    Tennessee's electric chair, dubbed ''Old Sparky,'' has gotten a high tech
facelift and has the ''most reliable design possible,'' officials said.

   The chair, which hasn't been used for an execution in 29 years, was redone
by
electrical engineer  Fred Leuchter  of Boston.

  Leuchter  ssid he refurbished the chair over a two-month period and it is
now state-of-the-art, computer-controlled equipment.

   ''The state has unquestionably the best and most reliable of all designs
that
it could possibly have,'' said  Leuchter. 

   The chair was moved last week to Tennessee's new Riverbend Maximum Security
Prison in Nashville, a $35-million conerstone of a $250-million
prison-building
program.

    Leuchter  said the chair is ''effectively a new chair'' over the one that
was first housed at the Tennessee State Penitentiary in 1913.

   ''The traditional look of the chair is still there. It retains some of the
wood -- both armrests, their supports and the main supports in the back,'' he
said.

    Leuchter  said, however, the chair is now wider and has new restraints --
aircraft-type harnesses and release buckles that can withstand more than 3,000
pounds of pressure

                                                                             
   The engineer said the most important difference is in the controls that
send
electricity through the 2,000-plus-volt chair.

   ''The operators never have to handle any high voltage. Before, they had to
pull a switch and wear heavy rubber gloves and boots and stand on a rubber
mat,''  Leuchter  said.

   ''The chair will be operated by two people who push different buttons
simultaneously. A computer will decide which button will start the timing
sequence and then it will promptly forget which one it picked,''  Leuchter 
said.

   He said the current will cause death in two minutes.

   Tennessee has 69 male inmates and one female inmate on death row, but has
not
held an execution since Nov. 7, 1960.

   Joseph Ingle, director of the Southern Coalition on Jails and Prisons,
described the changed chair as ''nauseating.''

   ''We are celebrating a nefarious deed and we are willing to spend
taxpayers'
money to do it,'' Ingle said.

    Leuchter  has installed electric chair systems in several states at an
average cost of $35,000.


Simcha Streltsov


Article 20506 of alt.revisionism:
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From: simon1@bu.edu (Simon Streltsov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Revisionist answers
Date: 26 Dec 1994 17:35:48 GMT
Organization: Boston University
Lines: 30
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Michael P. Stein (mstein@access4.digex.net) wrote:
:      When did you pass the Massachusetts bar, Greg?  Can you cite all the
: relevant state laws - especially the one under which the state government
: moved against Leuchter? 

Do we have here anyone with the expertise in the Mass Law?

I understand people speculating when we are talking about events 
in Poland 50 years ago under Soviet occupation - 
but here we have a case that can be checked by a person with a little
training and a LEXIS database.

Can someone more knowledgeable than me (I am just a lruker) 
write a question and x-post it to a legal newsgroup -
it is not so important if Leuchter has or does not have
a degree in engineering:
what is important - both sides are issuing confliciting reports
after the fact - did he need a certificate or not, etc .

If we can seee if one (or both) sides are intentionally lying -
it is probably worth investigating.

Simcha Streltsov, who increases in Adar
        and decreases in Av
and speaks
Russian with Jewish  accent
English with Russian accent
Hebrew  with English accent
all year long
( and writes also)


Article 20507 of alt.revisionism:
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From: simon1@bu.edu (Simon Streltsov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Revisionist answers
Date: 26 Dec 1994 17:40:31 GMT
Organization: Boston University
Lines: 29
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Daniel Golding (goldida@mail.auburn.edu) wrote:

: engineer. And to posit that _anyone_ having an engineering degree (or a PE 
: certification) is qualified to analyze the walls of a gas chamber for 
: traces of chemical used their decades ago is quite strange.

Noone says that his degree is important for verification of the results.
If you are going to be an engineer - let me teach you a small thing:
scientic results stand on their own merit: 
you may re-check assumptions, re-do calculations or tests -
everything else is not important.

:: Just what 
: tests were used, Mr.Raven? What were the actual numerical results? Who 
: verified the result? In science, there is a word for unverified result. 
: Rubbish.

The real question is:
why _noone_  __before__ Leuchter made these probes: the chambers
are standing there for 40+ years, there are museums built all over the
world, books published, and __noone__ ever bothered to go make an
analysis ?!

Simcha

The function of an expert is not be more right than other people,
but to be wrong for more sophisticated reasons

David Butler


Article 20512 of alt.revisionism:
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From: simon1@bu.edu (Simon Streltsov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Where to find a Nazi gas chamber - no problem
Date: 26 Dec 1994 18:13:36 GMT
Organization: Boston University
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <3dn14g$nnj@news.bu.edu>
References: <1994Dec20.171420.21862@hobbes.kzoo.edu> <3d7dph$f4m@amhux3.amherst.edu>  <3dcci0$6oo@access4.digex.net>
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Michael P. Stein (mstein@access4.digex.net) wrote:

:     Since it is the one he always refers to, the laughable Leuchter Report

Michael,
all the reports and calcultions about lice were published
_after_ Leuchter - AFAIK -
so, you should give him a credit that he looked at this side
of the problem - and let us analyze the facts.

You better talk about those laughable historians -
who never had a clue to go and make an analysis for 50 years
and needed a prison engineeer to come and show them 
how to do it.

Simcha Streltsov, _Former_  Adar Rabbi of S.C.Soviet
-------------------------
please, only Kosher lePesach homentashen
all others will be returned unopened.

p.s. This sig expired, but nobody have sent me real
     homentashen anyway



Article 20518 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Revisionist answers
Date: 26 Dec 1994 21:24:17 GMT
Organization: Brown University
Lines: 26
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Simon Streltsov  wrote:

# Noone says that his degree is important for verification of 
# the results.

Leuchter's "results" are pseudo-scientific rubbish. The fact that
he lied about his qualifications is independent of this. It's just
another negative pointer about the man.

# scientic results stand on their own merit: 

There is no merit here. Leuchter's work would have no merit even
if he would have been a real engineer, or a Ph.D, whatever. 

# The real question is:
# why _noone_  __before__ Leuchter made these probes: the chambers
# are standing there for 40+ years, there are museums built all over the
# world, books published, and __noone__ ever bothered to go make an
# analysis ?!

An analysis was made, in 1945. Perhaps you should do a little
reading before you post.


-Danny Keren.



Article 20526 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Revisionist answers
Date: 26 Dec 1994 23:07:03 GMT
Organization: Brown University
Lines: 39
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Simon Streltsov  wrote:

## Leuchter claimed that he had been a consultant to various prisons 
## regarding their technoloy for executions.  The management of those
## prisons denied that he had ever been a consultant for them.  That
## means that he was lying.  What part of this do you not understand?

[article by simon1@bu.edu about Leuchter consulting a Tennessee
 jail about an electric chair]

A few comments on this:

1) No one here claimed that Leuchter lied about his association 
   with the Tennessee prison. If you would read the FAQ, you would 
   see that it contains statments from the wardens at San-Quentin 
   and North Carolina, informing that they never hired or employed
   Leuchter, while he said (in Zundel's trial) that they did.

2) There is hardly anything in common between an electric chair
   and a gas chamber. I read the article you posted; what Leuchter
   did is something any engineering freshman, and quite a few
   highschool kids, can do. Very trivial stuff. 

3) Leuchter also designed a lethal injection machine, which a North-
   Western University professor described as being defective and
   stated that using it causes excruciating pain to those being
   executed. The professor is Edward A. Brunner, Chair of the
   Department of Anesthesia at the medical school at NWU. 


Let me give you an advice: don't buy a used electric chair from
Fred Leuchter.


-Danny Keren.





Article 20527 of alt.revisionism:
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From: simon1@bu.edu (Simon Streltsov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Revisionist answers
Date: 26 Dec 1994 23:29:10 GMT
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Danny Keren (dzk@cs.brown.edu) wrote:

: # The real question is:
: # why _noone_  __before__ Leuchter made these probes: the chambers
: # are standing there for 40+ years, there are museums built all over the
: # world, books published, and __noone__ ever bothered to go make an
: # analysis ?!

: An analysis was made, in 1945. Perhaps you should do a little
: reading before you post.

I did, but indeed "a little" - incl. FAQs on Jerusalem1

OK, if I rephraze my question:
"who did the analysis before Leuchter"?
would you give the reference?

Simcha

The function of an expert is not be more right than other people,
but to be wrong for more sophisticated reasons

David Butler


Article 20537 of alt.revisionism:
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From: jeff_brown@pol.com (Jeffrey G. Brown)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Where to find a Nazi gas chamber - no problem
Date: 27 Dec 1994 02:39:04 GMT
Organization: Internet Access Cincinnati 513-887-8877
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In article <3dn14g$nnj@news.bu.edu>, simon1@bu.edu (Simon Streltsov) wrote:

> Michael P. Stein (mstein@access4.digex.net) wrote:
> 
> :     Since it is the one he always refers to, the laughable Leuchter Report
> 
> Michael,
> all the reports and calcultions about lice were published
> _after_ Leuchter - AFAIK -
> so, you should give him a credit that he looked at this side
> of the problem - and let us analyze the facts.

Ummm.... what exactly was wrong with the Great Engineer Leuchter that _he_
couldn't make said calculations?

> You better talk about those laughable historians -
> who never had a clue to go and make an analysis for 50 years
> and needed a prison engineeer to come and show them 
> how to do it.

No one needed to "analyze" the chambers until the neo-Nazis of the IHR and
elsewhere started up their yammer about the Holocaust being some terrible
worldwide conspiracy.

Leuchter was analyzing the chambers for the purpose of _disproving_ their
use as instruments of mass murder... and even he admits that one could
have been so used.

JGB

=====================================================================
Jeffrey G. Brown                                   jeff_brown@pol.com
 "What's going to happen?"   "Something wonderful..."   -- '2010'


Article 20564 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Revisionist answers
Date: 27 Dec 1994 13:48:03 GMT
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Simon Streltsov  wrote:

# OK, if I rephraze my question:
# "who did the analysis before Leuchter"?
# would you give the reference?

From the FAQ (this is also reported in Pressac's book):

   This claim stems from the fact that Hydrocyanic compounds were found
   on the ventilation grills of the gas chambers in Krema II and III
   (the chemical analysis was carried out by Dr.  Jan Robel of the
   Cracow Forensic Institute in December 1945, and was part of the
   evidence in the trial of Auschwitz commander Ho"ss).  This proves
   that gassing did take place in that chamber
  



-Danny Keren.


Article 20590 of alt.revisionism:
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
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Subject: The USHMM
Date: Wed, 28 Dec 1994 08:33:00 -0800
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The U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum: A costly and dangerous mistake

by Theodore J. O9Keefe

Hard by the Washington Monument, within clear view of the Jefferson
Memorial, an easy stroll down the Mall to the majestic Lincoln Memorial,
has arisen, on some of the most hallowed territory of the United States of
America, a costly and dangerous mistake. On ground where no monument yet
marks countless sacrifices and unheralded achievements of Americans of all
races and creeds in the building and defense of this nation, sits today a
massive and costly edifice, devoted above all to a contentious and false
version of the ordeal in Europe, during World War II, of non-American
members of a minority, sectarian group. Now, in the deceptive guise of
tolerance, the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum begins a propaganda
campaign, financed through the unwitting largesse of the American
taxpayer, in the interests of Israel and its adherents in America.

How did the federal government allow the creation of such a monstrosity?
What is its meaning for American policy and for American values? And what
must the American people do to regain control of the land their servants
in Washington handed over to a foreign interest, and to establish an
enterprise thereon, whether a museum or otherwise, informed by and
conducted according to American principles and interests?

Origins

In the late 1970s, during the presidency of James Earl "Jimmy" Carter, a
propaganda campaign to promote the "Holocaust," the alleged systematic
slaughter of some six million Jews by the Germans during the Second World
War, was organized and carried out from Hollywood and New York. As
Benjamin Meed, an important functionary of the council which controls the
Holocaust museum, wrote in 1990:

Almost a dozen years ago, a new phenomena [sic] developed. The Holocaust
was introduced into schools, colleges, and universities. Television
broadcast programs on the Holocaust and millions of Americans watched
them. Soon, Americans took great interest in the lessons of the Holocaust,
its uniqueness and its universal message. (note 1)

Why the urgency of this campaign? Two factors were paramount: first, the
beginnings, more than three decades after the end of the Second World War,
of an objective scholarly assessment of the facts of the alleged German
policy to exterminate European Jewry. (note 2)

Second, the need to justify Zionist theory and practice in the face of
unprecedented international resistance to Israeli intransigence (including
the famous UN General Assembly Resolution which equated Zionism with
racism), and to defend Israel9s aggressive policy under the leadership of
the former terrorist, Prime Minister Menachem Begin. (note 3)

The U.S. Holocaust Memorial Council

In 1978 President Carter, his administration beleaguered at home and
abroad, succumbed to pressure from the new "Holocaust" lobby (and thus
America9s influential Israel-first minority) by creating, through
executive order, the President9s Commission on the Holocaust. Two years
later, on 7 October 1987, Congress passed -- unanimously -- a law
establishing the United States Holocaust Memorial Council, charged
principally with constructing and overseeing the operation of "a permanent
living memorial to the victims of the holocaust" and with providing "for
appropriate ways for the Nation to commemorate the Days of Remembrance, as
an annual, national, civic commemoration of the Holocaust ..." (note 4)

A priceless tract of public land was turned over to the Council, and,
after years of costly delay (during which the U.S. Holocaust Memorial
Council9s budget swelled from $2.5 million to over $18 million a year),
the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum has been completed and readied for
opening on 22 April 1993.

A sectarian, alien agenda

The Holocaust Memorial Council, besides soliciting tens of millions of
dollars in tax-deductible donations to finance the Holocaust museum, has
busied itself with promoting an agenda of unalloyed support for minority,
Zionist ends.

The membership of the Council, a U.S. federal agency, has been
overwhelmingly Jewish since its founding in 1980. The Council9s two
different chairmen -- Elie Wiesel and Harvey Meyerhoff -- have both been
committed to the support of the State of Israel, and the chairs of the
Council9s most important committees have been likewise Jewish and Zionist.

The chief fund-raiser for the Holocaust museum, Miles Lerman, was formerly
American vice chairman for the State of Israel Bonds Organization,
promoting tax-free investment in a country which receives by far the
largest amount of U.S. foreign aid per year. Working the same wealthy
Jewish-Americans he has long dealt with in his fund-raising for Israel,
Lerman has helped raise nearly $160 million in tax-deductible
contributions. The biggest donors have been rewarded by having various
components of the museum named for them, e.g. the Wexner Learning Center.

Nor is erecting and operating the Holocaust Memorial Museum the only
function with which the Holocaust Memorial Council has been charged.
Another of its duties is to commemorate the Days of Remembrance for
Victims of the Holocaust, which Congress has raised to "an annual,
national, civic commemoration of the Holocaust." Like the Israeli Yom
ha-shoah (Day of the Holocaust), on which they are based, the Days of
Remembrance are dated according to the lunar Hebrew calendar, and thus,
like Passover or Chanukah, fluctuate from year to year. These foreign days
of lamentation are currently celebrated, under the flag of the Republic,
to prayers and chants in Hebrew, in governmental settings from the Capital
Rotunda to city halls, across the land. Need it be stated that no group of
American victims of persecution, let alone another foreign group, enjoys
any such federally mandated and tax-supported day, or days, of
recognition?

The Holocaust Museum9s one-sided "history"

Although the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Council during its early years made
noises about recognizing the ordeals of non-Jews during the Second World
War, by every indication from advance literature published by the Council
the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum is relentlessly Judeocentric. While,
according to a preliminary ground plan of the permanent exhibit, here and
there are nods to non-Jewish groups oppressed by the German National
Socialists (never to groups victimized by Germany9s enemies, above all by
Stalin9s USSR), the larger holocaust of the Second World War, which
claimed an estimated 75 to 80 million lives around the world, is ignored
in preference to the Jewish ordeal. Thus, to cite just one telling
example, the Museum9s "Life before the Holocaust" exhibit refers strictly
to Jewish life before the Holocaust. (note 5)

Where, in fact, non-Jews figure in the Museum, they figure largely as
villains: the Germans and their allies and collaborators; the Western
allies, including America, who refused to accept a large immigration
before the war; the American political and military leaders who refused to
authorize costly bombing raids on the Auschwitz "gas chambers."

Red liberators?

The Museum9s message that support for Jews is the sole measure of decency
during the Second World War leads to anomalies which, in an American
museum raised on ground hallowed to the principles of liberty on which
this republic is based, can only be called shocking. That the victims of
World War II atrocities by the Allies -- massacres such as the firebombing
of Tokyo and Dresden, the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the
Soviet slaughter of Polish prisoners at Katyn, the mass rapes carried out
by the Red Army at the war9s end -- receive no mention is deplorable. But
the Museum9s treatment of the armed forces which defended Stalin9s savage
Soviet tyranny is nothing short of grotesque.

In the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum, Communists appear only in the guise
of "resistance fighters" and "liberators." For example, the submachine gun
and false papers of Samuel Weissberg, a Communist Party member who rose to
high rank in a Communist guerrilla group in North France, are on honored
display, no less precious a relic than the standard heaps of shoes and
hair, in the Museum9s permanent exhibit. (note 6)

Even more unsettling is the honor given to Stalin9s notorious Red Army,
which compiled a bloody and shameful record of atrocities across Europe
during, and after, the war. As the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Council9s
newsletter fulsomely puts it, "Flags will hang in the museum to honor the
millions of Soviet soldiers who drove Nazi forces westward and who were
the first allied forces to liberate and publicize the existence of the
camps." In the words of Council chairman Harvey Meyerhoff, these martial
banners of the Red tyranny have a single association: "Much more than
simply wartime memorabilia, these military artifacts are a significant
contribution to memory, one that will remind future generations of the
pivotal role Soviet forces played in defeating Nazism ..." (note 7)

What must the millions of Americans originating or descending from the
European nations -- Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania,
Poland, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Romania, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia -- for
which the Red "military artifacts" symbolized invasion, tyranny,
oppression, and persecution of religion think as they see the fierce
armies of their persecutors hailed as "liberators"?  

Israel in the museum

Just as one might guess from the circumstance that the Museum9s director,
Yeshayahu Weinberg, and the head of its "Learning Center," Yechiam Halevy,
were brought in from Israel, the Museum9s treatment of the state of Israel
is adulatory. An emotive tribute to the founding of Israel is an integral
part of the exhibition. That the establishment of Israel, and its
expansion in subsequent wars, has meant colonial occupation and oppression
for millions of the land9s native Palestinians, and dispossession and
exile for millions more, goes unmentioned -- another grotesquery in an
American museum supposed to instruct in the dangers of intolerance and
disregard of human rights. As for the momentous collaboration between
Hitler9s German state and the Jewish Agency in the 1930s, which through
the Ha9avara Agreement enabled the transfer of vital capital and the
influx of tens of thousands of highly skilled Jewish immigrants to
Palestine, that is passed over in utter silence. (note 8)

"Historical correctness"

The Holocaust Museum9s skewed history is not simply a matter of
one-sidedness and omission. The Museum has further committed itself to a
fixed and final interpretation of the surprisingly scanty and sometimes
suspect evidence for a German policy of annihilating European Jewry,
largely in gas chambers, in numbers approaching six million. This despite
a considerable body of research and scholarship that has arisen over past
two decades in many lands, and which contests, by academic means, the
substance of the Holocaust "extermination thesis." (note 9)

That the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Council is aware of the work of the
revisionists is clear: the Council9s literature is replete, not with
substantive refutations of revisionist scholarship, but with slander and
polemic. To cite one characteristic example, the U.S. Holocaust Memorial
Museum Newsletter of May 1992 featured a front-page attack on Holocaust
revisionism by Professor Deborah Lipstadt of Occidental College in which
the author decried the revisionists for producing material that looked
scholarly, then lauded the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum as "among the
most efficacious ways" of "combatting this pernicious trend," while
neglecting to specify a single error of revisionist scholarship. (note 10)

The U.S. Holocaust Memorial Council recognizes that there is a historical
debate on the Holocaust, but takes official notice of the dissenting
position only to attack it. That an American institution, supported by the
taxes of all Americans, should commit itself to inflexible historical
orthodoxy -- in the service of a single American minority -- is an
intolerable imposition on our First Amendment rights, as well as a mockery
of the Western, and American, ideal of objective scholarship.

A center for education?

U.S. Holocaust Memorial Council Chairman Harvey Meyerhoff has stated: "The
Museum is primarily an educational institution." (note 11) From the
Council9s own literature, however, it is clear what Meyerhoff means by
education. The "role-playing" for children as well as adults who visit the
Museum (visitors are to be issued "identity cards" bearing the name and
alleged fate of various Holocaust victims); the high-tech computer and
video effects and the recordings of speech and music which augment the
Museum9s tendentiously described artifacts; and the Museum9s goal, as
proclaimed by its Zionist fund-raising chairman, Miles Lerman, of insuring
that "Children in Dubuque, families in Tucson, and schoolteachers in
Atlanta will learn the history and the lessons of Auschwitz as thoroughly
as they learn the history of their own communities": all these show that
the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum is a propaganda enterprise that seeks
to indoctrinate all Americans in a uniquely and partisanly Jewish (and
Zionist) version of not merely the past, but the present and the future.
(note 12)

The American response

What is the American response to a partisan museum constructed in a place
solemnly consecrated to the heroes and the values of our Republic, to be
lavishly operated with taxpayer dollars at a time when, even in our
country9s capital, thousands sleep homeless in the shadow of our national
monuments? What is the American response to an ambitious propaganda agenda
that aims to impose a sectarian "Holocaust remembrance" in schools where
our children cannot pray, in town halls and federal buildings from which
the religious symbols of the majority are banned in the name of freedom of
worship?

Over two centuries ago, Thomas Jefferson wrote: "To compel a man to
furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he
disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical." (note 13)

Nearly 140 years ago, Abraham Lincoln said: "I insist, that if there is
anything which it is the duty of the whole people to never entrust to any
hands but their own, that thing is the preservation and perpetuity of
their own liberties and institutions." (note 14)

The U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum, and the Council which runs it, as
agencies of the government in which the American people is sovereign, must
be removed from the special interest that now controls it.

The scope and purpose of the Museum must be expanded, from its present
one-sided emphasis on foreign Jewish sufferings, real and imagined, in
Europe during the 1930s and 1940s to a compassionate yet realistic concern
for all victims, but above all for American victims, of historic
injustice.

The Museum must be made a place where American of every heritage, and
scholars of every viewpoint, may gather, educate, and be educated, without
accusation and in the absence of propaganda. Until it is, the men and
women who founded and built and suffered and fought and died for America,
of every race, nationality and creed, will rest uneasy.

NOTES

1. The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum Newsletter (Washington,
DC), August, 1990,"Survivors Play Major Role in Establishing the U.S.
Holocaust Memorial Museum," p. 1. Meed is president of the American
Gathering of Holocaust Survivors, and chairman of the U.S. Holocaust
Memorial Council9s Content and Days of Remembrance committees.

2. In 1976, Professor Arthur Butz9s book The Hoax of the Twentieth
Century: The Case Against the Presumed Extermination of European Jewry was
first published in England; in November of 1978 Professor Robert
Faurisson9s article "The Problem of the Gas Chambers" was published in the
Paris daily Le Monde. Professor Butz has commented on the simultaneous and
independent appearance of a variety of earlier academic criticisms of the
wartime propaganda version of Jewry9s ordeal in "The International
Holocaust Controversy," The Journal of Historical Review, Spring 1980, pp.
5-22.

3. By resolution of the United Nations General Assembly on November 10,
1975, Zionism was condemned as "a form of racism and racial
discrimination."

4. Public Law 96-388, ' 1, October 7, 1980, 94 Stat. 1547.

5. Statements regarding the Museum9s permanent exhibit, except where
otherwise noted, are derived from the floor plan and photographs in United
States Holocaust Memorial Museum, a brochure published by the USHMC in
Washington, 1991.

6. U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum Newsletter, Sept. 91, "French Resistance
Fighter9s Weapon Will Help Tell Story of Underground Movement," p. 4.

7. U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum Newsletter, Fall 1992, "Russian Embassy
Presents Flags of Liberating Units to Museum," p. 6.

8. For the most complete account of relations between the Nazis and the
Zionists, see Francis Nicosia, The Third Reich and the Palestine Question,
Austin: University of Texas, 1985. 

9. The most complete survey of Holocaust Revisionist writings to date is
Carlo Mattogno9s "The Myth of the Extermination of the Jews--Part II," in
The Journal of Historical Review, Fall 1988, pp. 261-302.

10. U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum Newsletter, May 1992, "Denying the
Holocaust: The Growing Assault on Truth," p.6.

11. US Holocaust Memorial Museum Newsletter, November 1991, "Wexner Family
Donates $5 Million to Fund Interactive Learning Center," p. 1.

12. The "identity cards" and other features of the Museum are described in
the brochure cited in note 5, above; Lerman9s statement was included in a
fund-raising letter sent by the Museum to potential Jewish contributors in
1991.

13. From "A Bill for Establishing Religious Freedom," 1779, in Jefferson:
Magnificent Populist, edited by Martin Larson, Greenwich, CN: Devin-Adair,
1981, p. 319.

14. "Speech at Peoria, Illinois," October 16, 1854, in The American
Intellectual Tradition, Vol. 1, edited by David Hollinger and Charles
Capper, New York: Oxford University Press, 1989, p. 382.

About the author

Theodore J. O9Keefe is an editor with the Institute for Historical Review.
He has published numerous articles on historical and political subjects.

The IHR publishes numerous revisionist books, tapes and other materials,
as well as the bimonthly Journal of Historical Review. Send $2 for a
packet of literature and full listing of books. Or, order more copies of
this leaflet, postpaid, at the following prices:

10 copies: $2.00 -- 50 copies: $5.00
100 copies or more 8 cents each

INSTITUTE FOR HISTORICAL REVIEW
Post Office Box 2739
Newport Beach, California 92659, U.S.A.

-- 
Greg Raven
mailto:greg.ihr@kaiwan.com
http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr
-----------------------------------------------------
For free information about the IHR, write to:
IHR, P.O. Box 241556, Newport Beach, CA 92659
Journal of Historical Review, $40 (6 issues per year)
The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, by Dr. Arthur Butz, $10 + $2 shipping


Article 20591 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: The USHMM
In-Reply-To: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com's message of Wed, 28 Dec 1994 08:33:00 -0800
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
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Date: Wed, 28 Dec 1994 21:47:11 GMT
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>The U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum: A costly and dangerous mistake
	blahblahblahblah...
>financed through the unwitting largesse of the American
>taxpayer,

If you read thru this, what these looney-tunes mean by this statement
is that donations are tax-deductible.

You (and your friends) really are a sick fuck, Raven. That about sums
it up. This sort of gutter spew deserves no more serious response.


-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 20594 of alt.revisionism:
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From: schultz@garnet.berkeley.edu (Richard Schultz)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The USHMM
Date: 28 Dec 1994 22:22:53 GMT
Organization: Philosophers of the Dangerous Maybe
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References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: garnet.berkeley.edu

In article ,
Greg Raven  wrote:

>The U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum: A costly and dangerous mistake
>by Theodore J. O9Keefe

>. . .the larger holocaust of the Second World War, which
>claimed an estimated 75 to 80 million lives around the world, is ignored
>in preference to the Jewish ordeal. 

Well, at least we have finally found out where Wayne "The Pain"
McGuire got his figures.
--
					Richard Schultz

"I seem to smell a peculiar and a fishlike smell."


Article 20603 of alt.revisionism:
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: The USHMM
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Barry Shein (bzs@world.std.com) wrote:

: >The U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum: A costly and dangerous mistake
: 	blahblahblahblah...
: >financed through the unwitting largesse of the American
: >taxpayer,

: If you read thru this, what these looney-tunes mean by this statement
: is that donations are tax-deductible.

Although the museum construction costs came from private donations, the
land it sits on, one of choicest locations in DC, is a gift from the
goverment, which (meaning you the taxpayer) is also paying the salaries
of the staff and other maintenance expenses. 

                Ross Vicksell


Article 20606 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: The USHMM
In-Reply-To: codfish@netcom.com's message of Thu, 29 Dec 1994 02:43:38 GMT
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) [responding to me]
>: If you read thru this, what these looney-tunes mean by this statement
>: is that donations are tax-deductible.
>
>Although the museum construction costs came from private donations, the
>land it sits on, one of choicest locations in DC, is a gift from the
>goverment, which (meaning you the taxpayer) is also paying the salaries
>of the staff and other maintenance expenses. 

I don't see how the fact that it sits on donated govt land implies
that these salaries are paid by the taxpayer. Do you think one follows
from the other? What are you trying to say here? You lost me.

And is this really any different from a creationist beleaguring a
natural history museum?

I think that article was pretty damn misleading, and purposely so.

Why don't y'all stick to trying to convince anyone, other than your
choir and a few kleim types (ie, die-hard nazis who love yer stuff),
that there's anything worthwhile in your beliefs. Rather than drawing
conclusions from them.

People go homeless and all that, yeah, right. Funny how this is where
y'all have decided to start fixing that problem...

It's so damn cheap and transparent, real kook stuff.

It's also not shocking that y'all attack anything that documents the
Holocaust. That's most telling of your agenda. What crap. What next
Ross? Burn down the libraries? I mean, they do house a lot of books
documenting the holocaust. That you don't agree surely must be a good
reason to just burn them to the ground. Lah-dee-dah.

Crap crap crap.

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 20608 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Fred Leuchter (was Re: Revisionist answers)
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References:  <3d9b8k$rkt@agate.berkeley.edu>  <3dbr5f$r92@agate.berkeley.edu>
Date: Thu, 29 Dec 1994 07:34:53 GMT
Lines: 26

Richard Schultz (schultz@garnet.berkeley.edu) wrote:
: In article ,
: Greg Raven  wrote:

: >It was not Leuchter who lied, but the prison managements. Perhaps now you
: >understand.

: Yes, I understand that you are a complete lunatic.  If the prison
: managements lied (i.e. perjured themselves in a court of law), why
: didn't Leuchter at least sue them for libel (their public statements
: are on record); why did he not sue them for his loss of business; why
: did his lawyer not at least try to cross-examine the managements into 
: revealing their perjury; why did not Leuchter try to lobby the authorities
: to have these prison managements taken to court for their perjury?
: --

I was wondering about this, too, so I called up Fred's attorney, Kirk
Lyons. According to him, he wanted to sue but Fred didn't.  Fred, at that
stage, still had the unrealistic hope that he could rebuild his business
after he got certification from the Massachusetts engineering licensing
authorities, and he didn't want to alienate the prison wardens in the
meantime.  Kirk, on the other hand, realized that the wardens knew which
side their bread was buttered on, and that they knew it would politically
unwise for them to ever resume dealings with Fred. 

                 Ross Vicksell


Article 20612 of alt.revisionism:
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: The USHMM
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References:  
Date: Thu, 29 Dec 1994 08:18:41 GMT
Lines: 16

Barry Shein (bzs@world.std.com) wrote:

: From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) [responding to me]
: >Although the museum construction costs came from private donations, the
: >land it sits on, one of choicest locations in DC, is a gift from the
: >goverment, which (meaning you the taxpayer) is also paying the salaries
: >of the staff and other maintenance expenses. 

: I don't see how the fact that it sits on donated govt land implies
: that these salaries are paid by the taxpayer. Do you think one follows
: from the other? What are you trying to say here? You lost me.

Salaries are covered in an act of congress, which provides for museum
maintenance until the year 2000. 

                          Ross Vicksell


Article 20615 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!garnet.berkeley.edu!schultz
From: schultz@garnet.berkeley.edu (Richard Schultz)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Fred Leuchter (was Re: Revisionist answers)
Date: 29 Dec 1994 12:35:25 GMT
Organization: Philosophers of the Dangerous Maybe
Lines: 39
Message-ID: <3duaed$e7t@agate.berkeley.edu>
References:   <3dbr5f$r92@agate.berkeley.edu> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: garnet.berkeley.edu

In article ,
Ross Vicksell  wrote:

>I was wondering about this, too, so I called up Fred's attorney, Kirk
>Lyons. According to him, he wanted to sue but Fred didn't.  Fred, at that
>stage, still had the unrealistic hope that he could rebuild his business
>after he got certification from the Massachusetts engineering licensing
>authorities, and he didn't want to alienate the prison wardens in the
>meantime.  Kirk, on the other hand, realized that the wardens knew which
>side their bread was buttered on, and that they knew it would politically
>unwise for them to ever resume dealings with Fred. 

This doesn't really address the issue.  If Leuchter had been running his
business in any kind of rational fashion, he would have kept some records
of his dealings with the prison.  Thus, when the prison officials said
"we have never had any dealings with this guy," Leuchter's lawyer could
have pulled out the correspondence and said "well, then, why did you 
write this letter saying 'Thank you for your help'?" or pulled out
the check stub and say "well, then, why did you pay him?" or at the
very least pulled out the long-distance phone log and said "we have
evidence of several lengthy phone calls between you and him.  What were 
they about?"

I am not a lwayer and I don't know the statute of limitations for 
such things as loss of business or slander.  But it seems to me that
if Leuchter can show that he was unable to rebuild his business as a
result of what those two wardens said, then his case is that
much stronger.  But the story as you tell it still makes no sense to
me.  On the one hand we have the possibility that the wardens lied in order
to protect some vast conspiracy.  On the other hand we have the possibility
that they were telling the truth, and that Leuchter -- who had already
admitted in open court to having lied about one thing already -- was
lying about the extent to which his services were used.  Unless you
present some kind of overwhelming evidence for the former possibility,
I cannot see any rational person preferring it to the second.
--
					Richard Schultz

"I seem to smell a peculiar and a fishlike smell."


Article 20623 of alt.revisionism:
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From: martev 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The USHMM
Date: Thu, 29 Dec 1994 10:46:54 -0500 (EST)
Lines: 22
Message-ID: 
References:   
NNTP-Posting-Host: seminole.gate.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
In-Reply-To:  



On Thu, 29 Dec 1994, Ross Vicksell wrote:

> Barry Shein (bzs@world.std.com) wrote:
> 
> 
> : I don't see how the fact that it sits on donated govt land implies
> : that these salaries are paid by the taxpayer. Do you think one follows
> : from the other? What are you trying to say here? You lost me.
> 
> Salaries are covered in an act of congress, which provides for museum
> maintenance until the year 2000. 
> 
>                           Ross Vicksell

Pray tell, in 5 more years, will you have something new to crap, err, 
carp, about???? 

What's your real problem, honestly??

Dare you tell??


Article 20639 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!codfish
From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Fred Leuchter (was Re: Revisionist answers)
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References:   <3dbr5f$r92@agate.berkeley.edu>  <3duaed$e7t@agate.berkeley.edu>
Date: Thu, 29 Dec 1994 22:43:16 GMT
Lines: 53

Richard Schultz (schultz@garnet.berkeley.edu) wrote:
: In article ,
: Ross Vicksell  wrote:

: >I was wondering about this, too, so I called up Fred's attorney, Kirk
: >Lyons. According to him, he wanted to sue but Fred didn't.  Fred, at that
: >stage, still had the unrealistic hope that he could rebuild his business
: >after he got certification from the Massachusetts engineering licensing
: >authorities, and he didn't want to alienate the prison wardens in the
: >meantime.  Kirk, on the other hand, realized that the wardens knew which
: >side their bread was buttered on, and that they knew it would politically
: >unwise for them to ever resume dealings with Fred. 
 
: This doesn't really address the issue.  If Leuchter had been running his
: business in any kind of rational fashion, he would have kept some records
: of his dealings with the prison.  Thus, when the prison officials said
: "we have never had any dealings with this guy," Leuchter's lawyer could
: have pulled out the correspondence and said "well, then, why did you 
: write this letter saying 'Thank you for your help'?" or pulled out
: the check stub and say "well, then, why did you pay him?" or at the
: very least pulled out the long-distance phone log and said "we have
: evidence of several lengthy phone calls between you and him.  What were 
: they about?

Like I said, Fre did not want to hassle ANY prison officials.


: I am not a lwayer and I don't know the statute of limitations for 
: such things as loss of business or slander.  But it seems to me that
: if Leuchter can show that he was unable to rebuild his business as a
: result of what those two wardens said, then his case is that
: much stronger.  But the story as you tell it still makes no sense to
: me.  On the one hand we have the possibility that the wardens lied in order
: to protect some vast conspiracy.

You guys and your "vast conspiracy."  Pressure was brought on the prison 
officials.  Period.

: On the other hand we have the possibility
: that they were telling the truth, and that Leuchter -- who had already
: admitted in open court to having lied about one thing already -- was

About what!?  The prison officials all either knew what his credentials,
or lack of same, were or didn't care.  This matter came up again and again
in court hearings. 

: lying about the extent to which his services were used.  Unless you
: present some kind of overwhelming evidence for the former possibility,
: I cannot see any rational person preferring it to the second.
: --
: 					Richard Schultz

: "I seem to smell a peculiar and a fishlike smell."


Article 20640 of alt.revisionism:
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From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Fred Leuchter (was Re: Revisionist answers)
Date: Thu, 29 Dec 1994 18:09:54 -0500
Organization: University of Michigan
Lines: 37
Message-ID: 
References: 
   
   <3dbr5f$r92@agate.berkeley.edu>
   
   <3duaed$e7t@agate.berkeley.edu>
   
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm005-02.dialip.mich.net

codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) wrote:

> Richard Schultz (schultz@garnet.berkeley.edu) wrote:
> : Thus, when the prison officials said
> : "we have never had any dealings with this guy," Leuchter's lawyer could
> : have pulled out the correspondence and said "well, then, why did you 
> : write this letter saying 'Thank you for your help'?" or pulled out
> : the check stub and say "well, then, why did you pay him?"...
> 
> Like I said, Fre did not want to hassle ANY prison officials.

Mr. Vicksell, you seem to be at least friends enough with Leuchter's
attorney that you can call him up just to chat.

Why not ask him and/or Mr. Leuchter himself whether he has any letters,
check stubs, or phone logs indicating that Mr. Leuchter had dealings
with the two prisons in question?

Tell you what -- if you can produce any evidence at all that Mr. Leuchter
dealt with those wardens in the manner which he said he did, I'll
renounce that claim that he perjured himself on that matter.  Until you
or someone else produces such evidence, I'll continue to make that claim.

> Pressure was brought on the prison officials.  Period.

And your evidence for this is...?

Do you have any?

Any at all?

Anything?
-- 
 Jamie McCarthy   Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu   AppleLink: j.mccarthy
 "The Jewish people will be exterminated...it's in our program."  - Himmler
 "Until you find a reference to gas chambers, you can forget about long,
  drawn-out discussions of Himmler's speeches."                     - Raven


Article 20646 of alt.revisionism:
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Fred Leuchter (was Re: Revisionist answers)
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References:  
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 1994 02:27:16 GMT
Lines: 12

Jamie McCarthy (k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu) wrote:
: Mr. Vicksell, you seem to be at least friends enough with Leuchter's
: attorney that you can call him up just to chat.

: Why not ask him and/or Mr. Leuchter himself whether he has any letters,
: check stubs, or phone logs indicating that Mr. Leuchter had dealings
: with the two prisons in question?

Fred dropped out of sight last spring, but I'll call Kirk again to see 
what he's got.

                           Ross Vicksell


Article 20647 of alt.revisionism:
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: The USHMM
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References:    
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 1994 02:44:08 GMT
Lines: 25

martev (martev@gate.net) wrote:


: On Thu, 29 Dec 1994, Ross Vicksell wrote:

: > Barry Shein (bzs@world.std.com) wrote:
: > 
: > 
: > : I don't see how the fact that it sits on donated govt land implies
: > : that these salaries are paid by the taxpayer. Do you think one follows
: > : from the other? What are you trying to say here? You lost me.
: > 
: > Salaries are covered in an act of congress, which provides for museum
: > maintenance until the year 2000. 
: > 
: >                           Ross Vicksell

: Pray tell, in 5 more years, will you have something new to crap, err, 
: carp, about???? 

: What's your real problem, honestly??

: Dare you tell??

      What'd eating this guy, anyway?


Article 20652 of alt.revisionism:
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From: jeff_brown@pol.com (Jeffrey G. Brown)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Fred Leuchter (was Re: Revisionist answers)
Date: 30 Dec 1994 05:59:21 GMT
Organization: Internet Access Cincinnati 513-887-8877
Lines: 23
Message-ID: 
References:   <3dbr5f$r92@agate.berkeley.edu>  <3duaed$e7t@agate.berkeley.edu> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: ip041220.iac.net

In article , codfish@netcom.com (Ross
Vicksell) wrote:

> : I am not a lwayer and I don't know the statute of limitations for 
> : such things as loss of business or slander.  But it seems to me that
> : if Leuchter can show that he was unable to rebuild his business as a
> : result of what those two wardens said, then his case is that
> : much stronger.  But the story as you tell it still makes no sense to
> : me.  On the one hand we have the possibility that the wardens lied in order
> : to protect some vast conspiracy.
> 
> You guys and your "vast conspiracy."  Pressure was brought on the prison 
> officials.  Period.

By whom? When? Where is your evidence, Vicksell? Produce facts -- all we
have from another 'revisionist scholar' are, as usual, more
unsubstantiated allegations.

JGB

=====================================================================
Jeffrey G. Brown                                   jeff_brown@pol.com
 "What's going to happen?"   "Something wonderful..."   -- '2010'


Article 20653 of alt.revisionism:
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From: jeff_brown@pol.com (Jeffrey G. Brown)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Fred Leuchter (was Re: Revisionist answers)
Date: 30 Dec 1994 06:00:19 GMT
Organization: Internet Access Cincinnati 513-887-8877
Lines: 23
Message-ID: 
References:   
NNTP-Posting-Host: ip041220.iac.net

In article , codfish@netcom.com (Ross
Vicksell) wrote:

> Jamie McCarthy (k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu) wrote:
> : Mr. Vicksell, you seem to be at least friends enough with Leuchter's
> : attorney that you can call him up just to chat.
> 
> : Why not ask him and/or Mr. Leuchter himself whether he has any letters,
> : check stubs, or phone logs indicating that Mr. Leuchter had dealings
> : with the two prisons in question?
> 
> Fred dropped out of sight last spring, but I'll call Kirk again to see 
> what he's got.

Sure you will.

We'll never hear from Vicksell on this again, folks. Bet on it.

JGB

=====================================================================
Jeffrey G. Brown                                   jeff_brown@pol.com
 "What's going to happen?"   "Something wonderful..."   -- '2010'


Article 20669 of alt.revisionism:
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From: stara@fas.harvard.edu (Felix Vagabond)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Revisionist answers
Date: 29 Dec 1994 21:26:54 GMT
Organization: Harvard University, Cambridge, Massachusetts
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <3dv9iu$4f2@decaxp.harvard.edu>
References:  wrote:

: # OK, if I rephraze my question:
: # "who did the analysis before Leuchter"?
: # would you give the reference?


 Simon you ought to read before you jump in and start asking louzy questions.
 You and Leuchter rubbish report is just an addition of un needed headaches.



: From the FAQ (this is also reported in Pressac's book):

:    This claim stems from the fact that Hydrocyanic compounds were found
:    on the ventilation grills of the gas chambers in Krema II and III
:    (the chemical analysis was carried out by Dr.  Jan Robel of the
:    Cracow Forensic Institute in December 1945, and was part of the
:    evidence in the trial of Auschwitz commander Ho"ss).  This proves
:    that gassing did take place in that chamber
:   
: 



: -Danny Keren.

--
==============================================================================
  ( No memorial can ever exhibit or impart the holocaust of SIX MILLION Jews)

                   VIGILANS.ET AUDAX.SEMPER PARATUS.
              
==============================================================================



Article 20751 of alt.revisionism:
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From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Fred Leuchter (was Re: Revisionist answers)
Date: Sun, 01 Jan 1995 15:01:54 -0500
Organization: University of Michigan
Lines: 39
Message-ID: 
References: 
   
   
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm005-08.dialip.mich.net

Jamie McCarthy (k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu) wrote:

: Why not ask him and/or Mr. Leuchter himself whether he has any letters,
: check stubs, or phone logs indicating that Mr. Leuchter had dealings
: with the two prisons in question?

codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) wrote:

> Fred dropped out of sight last spring, but I'll call Kirk again to see 
> what he's got.

I'll be eager to see what you learn.  And I repeat my earlier statement:
if you can produce convincing evidence that Mr. Leuchter had actual
business dealings with those prison wardens, contrary to what the wardens
themselves said, I'll renounce the claim that he perjured himself on that
matter.

Meanwhile -- you ignored my question as to how you know that "pressure was
brought on the prison officials."

What evidence do you have for that, Mr. Vicksell?

It's an important question.  If you have no evidence, then your
willingness to posit the existence of "pressure" speaks volumes about
your standards for proof.  If two prison wardens each say that they've
had no dealings with Leuchter, then Occam's Razor would indicate that,
in the absence of evidence indicating otherwise, they indeed have had
no dealings with Leuchter.

Do you have any evidence indicating otherwise?

And if not, why did you invent this "pressure" of which you speak?

Posted and emailed.
-- 
 Jamie McCarthy   Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu   AppleLink: j.mccarthy
 "The Jewish people will be exterminated...it's in our program."  - Himmler
 "Until you find a reference to gas chambers, you can forget about long,
  drawn-out discussions of Himmler's speeches."                     - Raven



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