The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/o/ostrov.hilary/ostrov.1196


From hostrov@uniserve.com Fri Nov  1 12:24:25 PST 1996
Article: 78133 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ZOG Brief #1-Introduction
Date: Fri, 01 Nov 1996 17:57:40 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 36
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <55de16$mcu@atlas.uniserve.com>
References:  <559dqv$68v@Networking.Stanford.EDU> <55ar2a$22b@d31rz2.Stanford.EDU> <55b4r8$ofd@atlas.uniserve.com> <55bpu5$32t@d31rz2.Stanford.EDU>
NNTP-Posting-Host: van0311.tvs.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

In <55bpu5$32t@d31rz2.Stanford.EDU>, rjg@d31rz2.Stanford.EDU (Richard
J. Green) wrote:

>In article <55b4r8$ofd@atlas.uniserve.com>,
>Hilary Ostrov  wrote:

>>You _are_ behind the times, aren't you?!  Please, use your decoder
>>ring occasionally when you read the newsletter!  Let me know if you
>>need some help with the correct settings :>)

>Decoder ring?  I still haven't gotten the updated ring.  What's up with
>this ZOG bureaucratic inefficiency?  What do I have to do to get a
>simple decoder ring?   

Oops I forgot.  You foolishly thought that because you paid your dues
in $US you would be entitled to the deluxe membership (which includes
the auto-updating decoder ring).  However, as I mentioned in response
to your last enquiry, this year we are working on bringing US currency
down to par, so you will have to pay the extra if you want the decoder
ring. I trust you will now retract your slanderous accusation of
inefficiency.

>I'm off to give a talk to the Order of Rosicrucians. 

I know it will go well.  They are very receptive to the laser
mind-control.

Bureaucratically yours in ZOGification


=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Fri Nov  1 14:05:02 PST 1996
Article: 78145 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Fill Me In: What happened to the Giwer-Swine?
Date: Fri, 01 Nov 1996 19:20:50 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 47
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <55dit2$oqc@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <54fvdl$jb6@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca>  <326F2F06.7BF020D5@vertigo.combase.com> <54p9os$2202$3@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <54qrc2$jjg@d31rz2.Stanford.EDU> <32714105.6FB2AEC6@vertigo.combase.com> <199610252346.QAA28613@zorro.bctel.ca>  <199610261628.JAA16922@zorro.bctel.ca>   <846859214.10329.2@vertigo.combase.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: van0125.tvs.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

In <846859214.10329.2@vertigo.combase.com>, Hardwire
 wrote:

>Sara aka Perrrfect wrote:
>> 
>> In article ,
>> Hardwire  wrote:
>> 
>> > Since when is changing your identity information in a Post to a Newsgroup
>> > breaking a Law?
>> >
>> That's NOT what happened, "Hardwire" and you are being extremely
>> disengenuous to state it this way.
>> 
>> Mr. Giwer FORGED accounts: Dan Keren, Ken McVay, Yale Eideken, and many
>> others. Not "changed his name," FORGED theirs.
>> 
>> If he did it on a check, he'd be in jail.
>> 
>> Sara

>Point taken. However, I don't recall UseNet posts ever being accepted as
>a form of currency either.

>-- Hardwire

Mr. Hardwire, perhaps your cloak of anonymity renders you incapable of
appreciating that - for those of us who use our real names on USENET
posts - our names are the currency of our communication.
Consequently, the forgeries in question are nothing less than a
deliberate attempt to debase the value of that coinage.  

But I am still curious, Mr. Hardwire.  Why _are_ you putting so much
effort into constructing these elaborate "cleansing filters" through
which you choose to view the troll's words and actions?  And in what
way do you think your efforts are of any benefit to the troll  - or to
advancing the cause of freedom of speech, for that matter?

Posted/e-mailed.

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Sat Nov  2 09:31:09 PST 1996
Article: 78232 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news-out.internetmci.com!news.internetMCI.com!pull-feed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "...elbowing in on the Holocaust business..."
Date: Sat, 02 Nov 1996 10:31:36 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 48
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <55f88e$knk@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: van0216.tvs.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

In ,
slepokuo@cadvision.com (Orest Slepokura) wrote:


>In 1992, New Star Books of Vancouver published Chronicles of Dissent,
>David Barsamian's book of interviews with Noam Chomsky. Chapter 13, titled
>"World Orders: Old and New", contains the following exchange between
>Barsamian and Chomsky, which, according to the chronology, occurred on
>November 18, 1990 [p. 217]:

[deleted]

>If I understand correctly, what Noam Chomsky is saying is, [...]

It should be remembered that Chomsky, whose expertise lies in the
field of linguistics, is never loath to engage in linguistic
gymnastics when given an opportunity to rant about the U.S., Israel or
Jewish people - despite the fact that he too is Jewish by birth.  

His opinions are certainly not inconsistent with one who has defended
Faurisson and has many ties to the peddlers of Holocaust denial.
Readers of Mr. Slepokura's post may wish to keep in mind that:

"Chomsky's [political] writings are often praised by his admirers as
packed with 'facts'.  And indeed there are many footnotes and many
references to apparently esoteric pieces of information.  But I have
found that these references, at least those that deal with crucial
points, simply do not check out.  Sometimes the source is impossible
to track down, sometimes it is completely misquoted, very often it is
so patently and completely biased that no responsible scholar could
have taken it at face value. [...]" 
[p.3 of essay _The Hidden Alliances of Noam Chomsky_ by Werner Cohn
(1988)  Available from Americans for a Safe Israel, New York, NY]

I'm far from being a scholar myself, but Werner Cohn was Professor
Emeritus of Sociology at the University of British Coumbia in 1988
(and may still be for all I know!).  I have no reason to doubt his
assessment of Chomsky and would be inclined to conclude that Chomsky's
rantings in this interview bear little - if any - relationship to
reality.

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Sat Nov  2 12:28:36 PST 1996
Article: 78270 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!hookup!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Another Holocaust Peculiarity
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 12:19:31 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 41
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <55679i$hr5@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <32684656.167E@itsa.ucsf.edu> <54qd7n$1s6@juliana.sprynet.com>  <846615766snz@abaron.demon.co.uk>
NNTP-Posting-Host: van0201.tvs.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

In <846615766snz@abaron.demon.co.uk>, A_Baron@abaron.demon.co.uk
(Alexander Baron) wrote:

>In article  dkeren@world.std.com "Daniel Keren" writes:

>> rblackmore@juno.com whines:
>> 
>> # What you call a lie was simply human error due to the fact
>> # that I was relying upon memory until I found the source with
>> # the inscription.
>> 
>> So, when a Holocaust survivor errs by two weeks when
>> giving the date of something that happened two years
>> ago, our lame Nazi apologist "rblackmore" immediately
>> decides that he/she is a liar, and starts calling them
>> infantile names such as "Bimbo", etc.

>Dan, Ada Bimko swore a number of affidavits, I have them all; they are
>not credible. She was a doctor, remember, so was Bendel. One expects more
>of doctors.

Oh, the affidavits "are not credible"?!  Well, Alex, while one really
expects far less from you than one does of any doctor (of medicine -
or of documents for that matter!), do tell us what particular
expertise you have that would give us any reason whatsoever to believe
that your assessment of the credibility of these affidavits should
engender anything other than laughter.

Nice of you to attempt to fill the deafening silence left by Mr/Ms
Belling/Blackmore and his/her ghost writer, though, Alex.  But it does
nothing to enhance his/her credibility, as far as I can see.

[balance deleted ]

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Mon Nov  4 06:14:21 PST 1996
Article: 78416 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MESSAGE: "[Sorry.  This article is no longer available.]"
Date: Mon, 04 Nov 1996 03:11:04 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 49
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <55jn6c$294@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <55em39$eq9@newsfeeder.total.net> <327c165d.3179937@news.zippo.com> <55jd6u$nq8@newsfeeder.total.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: van0411.tvs.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

In <55jd6u$nq8@newsfeeder.total.net>, jtoth@infobahnos.com (Judith
Toth) wrote:

[much deleted for brevity]

>	You know, dear shopkeepers, - or shall I call you *censors*, - the
>activity  looks to me more like *filtering* rather than *flushing*!
>	Shame on YOU! Go to the corner and repeat 50 times:
>	"I must find a better explanation!"
>Judit Toth
>------------

Dear Ms. Toth,

You may, of course, call us whatever your little heart desires.  But
regardless of what you choose to call us (which, incidentally, will
say far more about you than it ever will about any of us), you can
spare yourself further embarrassment by reading the Help file that is
part of your Free Agent program.  I would also sugget that you verify
the settings for _each_ of the options you are empowered by the
software to configure in accordance with _your_ preferences.  Because
Free Agent is an off-line newsreader, it is these settings which
determine _what_ is purged (deleted) from your computer and _when_.  

Your current settings may well be configured so that article bodies
you have retrieved and/or read are purged after x number of days but
the headers are not purged until (x + y) days.  Any "locked" articles
will not be affected by these settings until you remove the "lock"

One more thing, if you are accessing the 'net via a workstation that
is part of a network at your home, school, or place of employment,
your difficulty in believing what others have told you regarding an
ISP "flushing" news article from their server may stem from your
mistaken assumption that the network server and the ISP server are one
and the same.  They are not.

I hope this helps.  (And it will, but only if you let it!)

Posted/e-mailed

hro


=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Mon Nov  4 15:39:35 PST 1996
Article: 78489 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Suggestion for a Title for the Criminal Giwer
Date: Mon, 04 Nov 1996 19:31:53 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 40
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <55lgl1$dg9@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <327d0df5.7417017@news.zippo.com> <55jhu6$kvk@news.enter.net> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: van0203.tvs.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

In , mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark
Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <55jhu6$kvk@news.enter.net>, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>> >   ccarp@concept.net (Chris Carpenter) writes:
>> 

[...]

>> Giwer took you all on, single handedly!
>> 
>>         And lost.

>Profoundly too. 

>> But since you are so fond of his illegal and improper tactics perhaps 
>> you would like to propose a title for him.  "Lord of the Flies" has been 
>> taken. Would you accept "King of the Cockroachs?"

>ROTFL! 

>Personally, taking into consideration the Giwer-swine's photograpgh, 
>I think "Guru of Grubs" is more fitting. };-> 

Tsk. Tsk. Mr. Van Alstine.  Let us not judge a book by its cover! Of
course it takes no more than a cursory glance at the "contents" to
determine that he may be deserving of "Nattering Nabob of Nonsensical
Nothings."  

But, on second thoughts, considering his acolytes and advocates,
perhaps "Wunderkind of the Writhing Worms" would be more appropos :>)

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Mon Nov  4 15:39:36 PST 1996
Article: 78492 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust Story is a Hate Crime
Date: Mon, 04 Nov 1996 20:06:39 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 32
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <55lim7$eci@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <327e1c9f.8555832@199.0.216.204> <327f1ede.9130347@199.0.216.204>
NNTP-Posting-Host: van0216.tvs.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

In <327f1ede.9130347@199.0.216.204>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran aka
the denier in search of a persona) wrote: [in answer to himself]

>>
>>	The Holocaust story relates some of the most wicked claims in
>>world history. If it's true then it deserves attention. If it's true,
>>then it wouldn't be a 'hate crime' to harp and harp.
>>	But, then again, if the story is not true, then it is a 'hate
>>crime'. Considering the obsessive, eternal and constant harping on the
>>story, if it's not true, then it is the hate crime of the milennia.

>	Since so many components of the Holocaust story have been shown
>to be and accepted to be lies, and are now deleted from the story, and
>that there is still much controversy to the subject, then it deserves
>wide scale, global attention and must be put up for grand debate.
>	Anyone opposing this is trying to hide something, bring
>totalitarian policy, stifle freedom of speech, make all the lives lost
>for the cause of truth and freedom a wasted thing. 

Welcome back and congratulations, Li'l Tommy.  I see that while your
articulation skills are in regression again, you have gleaned
something from your Denier courses in "projection" and "convoluted
logic."  Mind you, your leaps are no less laughable, so perhaps you
should go back to crying, "WHERE ARE THE PHOTOS?"

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/m/moran-tom/lies/behold-the-liar.html
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/



[sig file omitted for Li'l Tommy's spirit 'n paste convenience]



From hostrov@uniserve.com Tue Nov  5 06:58:34 PST 1996
Article: 78534 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hoess Memoirs
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 12:19:54 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 28
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <5567a9$hr5@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <325d7e83.4204398@news.inetport.com> <53da2h$d7q@juliana.sprynet.com> <325e6c0e.2929082@news.inetport.com>  <53jh0r$934@is05.micron.net>  <53ptgp$pc6@is05.micron.net>  <541e28$hqp@is05.micron.net>  <5425on$j5t@is05.micron.net>  <32738DF8.E0C@kaiwan.com> <32780c9b.81265917@news.zilker.net> <327619FB.6B43@kaiwan.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: van0201.tvs.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

In , mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark
Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <327619FB.6B43@kaiwan.com>, ihrgreg@kaiwan.com wrote:

>> If, on the other hand, the above message was simply your way of asking
>> for a citation, I direct you to "The Hoax of the Twentieth Century," by
>> Arthur Butz.

>Butz? Uh huh.  And my I direct you do the door, Mr. Raven?
>Don't let it hit you on the butt on the way out....

Well, maybe you shouldn't be too hasty, Mark.  It occurs to me that
given how little it touches on reality - and  the high esteem in which
it is apparently held by Mr. Raven and others of his ilk -  perhaps
Butz' "work" is in line for _nomination_ as the "Hoax" of the
twentieth century.  Mind you, Butz does face some stiff competition
>from  Zundel's UFO scam, doesn't he?!

hro


=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Wed Nov  6 14:44:45 PST 1996
Article: 78693 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,fl.general,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Attack on Alt.Revisionism -- Gate.Net Refuses to Help
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: Wed, 06 Nov 1996 21:10:08 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 58
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <55qv50$rib@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <558uaj$38a@panix2.panix.com><558uaj$38a@panix2.panix.com> <55c9l1$1pcc@news.gate.net> <55hc9i$2ucq$5@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net> <847303648.16749.0@vertigo.combase.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: van0200.tvs.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca soc.culture.jewish:89373 alt.revisionism:78693

[Follow-ups set]

In <847303648.16749.0@vertigo.combase.com>, Hardwire
 wrote:

Oh, Mr. Hardwire!  I see that you are still here!  Didn't you tell us
that you didn't have time for this and were leaving?

>Gord McFee wrote:

>> Mr. Giwer, on ISP number 3 (or is it 4?) continues his true "revisionist"
>> approach, by lying about his own posts, and lying about his own stated
>> intentions.  He also, just in passing, erroneously implies that he has
>> succeeded at something, whereas the world knows he has failed at everything he
>> has tried.
>> 
>> Mr. Giwer stated earlier that his intention was to make this newsgroup useless
>> and that he would control it.  As we have all noticed, as he is booted from
>> ISP to ISP, he has failed--completely--on both counts.  Now he is reduced to
>> snivelling little whines under assumed, forged or both, names.
>> 

>Oh, but indeed, this post is a direct admission that his control over
>this newsgroup has not been broken.  He's had you chasing your tails,
>reposting, crossposting, replying, and otherwise wasting your time
>rebuking him.  He's beginning to accomplish that which he stated he
>would set out to do.

To the contrary, Mr. Hardwire.  If you were not so blinded by the
self-appointed advocacy role you have chosen to adopt, you would see
that we are wasting far more time pointing out the errors of your
assumptions than engaging in anything which could be remotely
construed as "rebuking" the troll.

I am quite sure that when you figure out how to use Deja News
efficiently - and take the time to examine what you find objectively
[rather than through your troll-coloured glasses] - you will see that
compared to his "heyday" when he was in ,
responses to troll-posts are very few and far between.

His behaviour is no different than that of an attention-craving child
throwing temper tantrums.  The troll has backed himself into a corner
and sits there wallowing in his ineptitude, wearing his dunce's cap,
and refusing to learn from his mistakes.

If you think such behaviour constitutes "control over this newsgroup,"
you fool no one but yourself (and perhaps the troll and his other
acolytes!)

Posted and e-mailed to Mr. Hardiwire, cc Mr. McFee.

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Wed Nov  6 14:49:41 PST 1996
Article: 78693 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,fl.general,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Attack on Alt.Revisionism -- Gate.Net Refuses to Help
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: Wed, 06 Nov 1996 21:10:08 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 58
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <55qv50$rib@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <558uaj$38a@panix2.panix.com><558uaj$38a@panix2.panix.com> <55c9l1$1pcc@news.gate.net> <55hc9i$2ucq$5@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net> <847303648.16749.0@vertigo.combase.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: van0200.tvs.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca soc.culture.jewish:89373 alt.revisionism:78693

[Follow-ups set]

In <847303648.16749.0@vertigo.combase.com>, Hardwire
 wrote:

Oh, Mr. Hardwire!  I see that you are still here!  Didn't you tell us
that you didn't have time for this and were leaving?

>Gord McFee wrote:

>> Mr. Giwer, on ISP number 3 (or is it 4?) continues his true "revisionist"
>> approach, by lying about his own posts, and lying about his own stated
>> intentions.  He also, just in passing, erroneously implies that he has
>> succeeded at something, whereas the world knows he has failed at everything he
>> has tried.
>> 
>> Mr. Giwer stated earlier that his intention was to make this newsgroup useless
>> and that he would control it.  As we have all noticed, as he is booted from
>> ISP to ISP, he has failed--completely--on both counts.  Now he is reduced to
>> snivelling little whines under assumed, forged or both, names.
>> 

>Oh, but indeed, this post is a direct admission that his control over
>this newsgroup has not been broken.  He's had you chasing your tails,
>reposting, crossposting, replying, and otherwise wasting your time
>rebuking him.  He's beginning to accomplish that which he stated he
>would set out to do.

To the contrary, Mr. Hardwire.  If you were not so blinded by the
self-appointed advocacy role you have chosen to adopt, you would see
that we are wasting far more time pointing out the errors of your
assumptions than engaging in anything which could be remotely
construed as "rebuking" the troll.

I am quite sure that when you figure out how to use Deja News
efficiently - and take the time to examine what you find objectively
[rather than through your troll-coloured glasses] - you will see that
compared to his "heyday" when he was in ,
responses to troll-posts are very few and far between.

His behaviour is no different than that of an attention-craving child
throwing temper tantrums.  The troll has backed himself into a corner
and sits there wallowing in his ineptitude, wearing his dunce's cap,
and refusing to learn from his mistakes.

If you think such behaviour constitutes "control over this newsgroup,"
you fool no one but yourself (and perhaps the troll and his other
acolytes!)

Posted and e-mailed to Mr. Hardiwire, cc Mr. McFee.

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Thu Nov  7 08:27:29 PST 1996
Article: 89373 of soc.culture.jewish
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,fl.general,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Attack on Alt.Revisionism -- Gate.Net Refuses to Help
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: Wed, 06 Nov 1996 21:10:08 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 58
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <55qv50$rib@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <558uaj$38a@panix2.panix.com><558uaj$38a@panix2.panix.com> <55c9l1$1pcc@news.gate.net> <55hc9i$2ucq$5@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net> <847303648.16749.0@vertigo.combase.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: van0200.tvs.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca soc.culture.jewish:89373 alt.revisionism:78693

[Follow-ups set]

In <847303648.16749.0@vertigo.combase.com>, Hardwire
 wrote:

Oh, Mr. Hardwire!  I see that you are still here!  Didn't you tell us
that you didn't have time for this and were leaving?

>Gord McFee wrote:

>> Mr. Giwer, on ISP number 3 (or is it 4?) continues his true "revisionist"
>> approach, by lying about his own posts, and lying about his own stated
>> intentions.  He also, just in passing, erroneously implies that he has
>> succeeded at something, whereas the world knows he has failed at everything he
>> has tried.
>> 
>> Mr. Giwer stated earlier that his intention was to make this newsgroup useless
>> and that he would control it.  As we have all noticed, as he is booted from
>> ISP to ISP, he has failed--completely--on both counts.  Now he is reduced to
>> snivelling little whines under assumed, forged or both, names.
>> 

>Oh, but indeed, this post is a direct admission that his control over
>this newsgroup has not been broken.  He's had you chasing your tails,
>reposting, crossposting, replying, and otherwise wasting your time
>rebuking him.  He's beginning to accomplish that which he stated he
>would set out to do.

To the contrary, Mr. Hardwire.  If you were not so blinded by the
self-appointed advocacy role you have chosen to adopt, you would see
that we are wasting far more time pointing out the errors of your
assumptions than engaging in anything which could be remotely
construed as "rebuking" the troll.

I am quite sure that when you figure out how to use Deja News
efficiently - and take the time to examine what you find objectively
[rather than through your troll-coloured glasses] - you will see that
compared to his "heyday" when he was in ,
responses to troll-posts are very few and far between.

His behaviour is no different than that of an attention-craving child
throwing temper tantrums.  The troll has backed himself into a corner
and sits there wallowing in his ineptitude, wearing his dunce's cap,
and refusing to learn from his mistakes.

If you think such behaviour constitutes "control over this newsgroup,"
you fool no one but yourself (and perhaps the troll and his other
acolytes!)

Posted and e-mailed to Mr. Hardiwire, cc Mr. McFee.

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Sat Nov  9 05:38:02 PST 1996
Article: 78938 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Soviets were fighting Hitler in 1956 in Hungary? [David Irving]
Date: Fri, 08 Nov 1996 22:04:07 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 120
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <560b1o$2l3@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <55rva0$55f@Networking.Stanford.EDU> <19961108160100.LAA25334@ladder01.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: van0129.tvs.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

In <19961108160100.LAA25334@ladder01.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com
wrote:

[deletia]

>Comments like *the traditional enemy* (that he made) should  be recognized
>as being deeply cynical and bitter.  Such thinking is very unhealthy, and
>also wrong.  But I think the reason why people like Irving are created has
>a lot to do with the vociferous treatment received by those who disagree
>with traditional points of emphasis [i.e., Nazis evil, evil, evil,
>everybody else, good, good, good] not out of ill will but because they are
>considered overly simplistic and monocausal, or, as is usually rehearsed
>on this board, because of arguments over _details_ i.e., the veracity of
>this or that witness, the usage or non-usage of gas in executions, the
>number of victims, etc.

Indeed such thinking as Irving gives vent to is "unhealthy and wrong."
And it is as deceitful of him to attempt to whitewash Hitler and the
Nazis actions (by blaming the Jews) as it is of you to attempt to
whitewash Irving (by blaming those who remind the world that -
regardless of his "expertise"  - Irving is _not_ an honest historian.)


Sorry, but speaking of "simplistic and monocausal,"  notwithstanding
your temporary (?) return to civility, your agenda is showing again,
Ehrlich.

And I see you are back to . Are we
to be treated to another round of lectures on the contribution of
class and economics, Ehrlich?

>My feeling is that if somebody has questions or doubts or alternate
>conclusions about _details_ then let them go.  

Really?!  How fascinating, Ehrlich.  This of course explains your
lengthy discourses on whether the Zyclon pellets were blue or mauve or
perhaps your "contributions" to understanding Nyiszli - to name but a
few examples.

Or are we to take your exhortation to "let them go" as your
rationalization for the countless dangling threads you have left
during previous visits when you graced us with your presence?

[...]

>Unfortunately as we all know the reactions are much more heated than that,
>the reactions are much more heated than that, 

You are quite right, Ehrlich.  Some of us do react very heatedly when
confronted with dishonest scholarship such as you demonstrated, as a
matter of fact, in the following:



<4unkhi$fsf@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
wrote:

[snip]

>Lucy Dawidowicz claimed 2 million, from the context I assume she is
>referring to Jews only. 

>(The War against the Jews / 1933-1945, New York, Holt, 1975, pp. 149-149).



And as I responded in  <4uvmdj$q0f@atlas.uniserve.com>



The immediately preceding paragraph (p. 148) to the "Auschwitz
2,000,000" at the top. of p.149 reads as follows: [ellipses and
emphasis are mine]



THE STATISTICS OF THE DEATH CAMPS ARE ONLY APPROXIMATE.  At Auschwitz,
the largest mass-killing installation, many transports of deportees
went directly from the detraining ramps to the gas chambers and WERE
NEVER STATISCALLY REGISTERED.  On March 16, 1946, Ho"ss made the
following statement ... :  "I personally arranged on orders received
>from  Himmler in May 1941 the gassing of two million persons between
June-July 1941 and the end of 1942, during which time I was commandant
of Auschwitz."  MOST VICTIMS AT THE DEATH CAMPS WERE JEWS, BUT ALSO
GYPSIES AND THOUSANDS OF NON-JEWS - selected for particular reasons -
were gassed.





I don't recall seeing anything further from you on this thread,
Ehrlich.

>so instead of communication
>we get polarization that draws people inward where they fester.

I don't suppose it has ever occurred to you that such polarization
could be ameliorated by the occasional retraction and apology,
Ehrlich.  Your blatant dishonesty certainly doesn't draw me inward.
But if you want to "fester" in your dishonesty, be my guest.

>But thanks for laying some cards out so we could talk this over.  These
>are the kind of constructive exchanges I originally envisioned for this
>board.

Perhaps you will also be kind enough to enlighten us as to how you
reconcile your vision for this board with the troll's destructive
exchanges - to which you have repeatedly given your blessing and full
support in the past.

Posted/e-mailed (Please respond publicly)

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Sat Nov  9 05:38:03 PST 1996
Article: 78994 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news-out.internetmci.com!news.internetMCI.com!peerfeed.internetmci.com!dciteleport.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!mindspring!uunet!in2.uu.net!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Soviets were fighting Hitler in 1956 in Hungary? [DI/After]
Date: Sat, 09 Nov 1996 11:13:00 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 54
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <561p8o$9nj@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <19961109013300.UAA05888@ladder01.news.aol.com> <19961109025700.VAA07400@ladder01.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: van0210.tvs.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

In <19961109025700.VAA07400@ladder01.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com
wrote:

>In article <19961109013300.UAA05888@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
>ehrlich606@aol.com writes:

>A Late Addition to Previous Response

[...]
>>

>I will tell you this:  What happened in the 20th Century was not that
>complicated.  

[repetition of uncomplicated stuff snipped ]

>But as in the
>Garden of Eden, blame only divides and separates: the apple was proffered,
>taken, and eaten.  

>It is within this context that I am adamant that the Holocaust should be
>placed, and understood.  And we should approach the skeleton of this
>process with as much inclusiveness, breadth, humanity, and understanding
>as we can muster.

How noble of you.  Ehrlich, you are free to speculate, to choose Giwer
for your friend, and to be as "adamant" as you like.  But as long as
those on your side of the fence continue to recycle the lies and
distortions we see in this newsgroup (and in the conspicuous absence
of any rebuke on your part, one must assume that they do so with your
full support and approval), I think there are some intermediate steps
you have missed.

In any event, regardless of what you, Irving, Zundel, Raven and your
like-minded friends would like to delude people into thinking - or
perhaps forgetting -  this does _not_ change the fact that Hitler and
the Nazis were _responsible_ for the murder of approximately 12
million innocent civilians - of whom about 6 million were Jewish.

It is entirely within the realm of possibility that these murders were
tacitly condoned and/or supported by many who - at one time or another
- had taken a position along the lines of  "the use of anti-Jewish
epithets does not an anti-semite make."  [Ehrlich606, Nov. 8/96
<19961109013300.UAA05888@ladder01.news.aol.com> ]

hro


=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Sun Nov 10 06:53:42 PST 1996
Article: 79001 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!chi-news.cic.net!mr.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!mindspring!uunet!in2.uu.net!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Soviets were fighting Hitler in 1956 in Hungary? [David Irving]
Date: Sat, 09 Nov 1996 11:12:53 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 281
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <561p8i$9nj@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <560b1o$2l3@atlas.uniserve.com> <19961109013300.UAA05888@ladder01.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: van0210.tvs.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

In <19961109013300.UAA05888@ladder01.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com
wrote:

>In article <560b1o$2l3@atlas.uniserve.com>, hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary
>Ostrov) writes:

>>In <19961108160100.LAA25334@ladder01.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com
>>wrote:
>>
>>[deletia]
>>
>>>Comments like *the traditional enemy* (that he made) should  be
>>>recognized as being deeply cynical and bitter.  Such thinking is very unhealthy,
>>>and also wrong.  But I think the reason why people like Irving are created
>>>has a lot to do with the vociferous treatment received by those who disagree
>>>with traditional points of emphasis [...]

>>
>>Indeed such thinking as Irving gives vent to is "unhealthy and wrong."
>>And it is as deceitful of him to attempt to whitewash Hitler and the
>>Nazis actions (by blaming the Jews) as it is of you to attempt to
>>whitewash Irving (by blaming those who remind the world that -
>>regardless of his "expertise"  - Irving is _not_ an honest historian.)
>>

>Well, I think you are engaging in precisely the kind of of simplistic
>analysis I deplore when you say that Irving *blames the Jews*.  What page
>is _that_ on?

Well, so much for your "thought" processes.  My own are somewhat
different.  I have heard the man speak on radio and I have read the
opinions of others (whom I respect) who have heard him speak and/or
read his books.  My experience and understanding have led me to the
conclusion that at any opportunity (and if there aren't any obvious
ones, he'll create them), Iriving blames the Jews - for his own
misfortunes and for those of Hitler and the Nazis.

Nor am I alone in this opinion of Irving.  But if you wish to dub this
"simplistic analysis" ... well, far be it from me to dispute your
self-avowed  "impressive intellect and knowledge."

>>
>>Sorry, but speaking of "simplistic and monocausal,"  notwithstanding
>>your temporary (?) return to civility, your agenda is showing again,
>>Ehrlich.
>>
>>And I see you are back to . Are we
>>to be treated to another round of lectures on the contribution of
>>class and economics, Ehrlich?

>No, I don't have the time to prepare the arguments with the level of
>detail which Mike would like to see, but OTOH I am persuaded of the
>thesis, so I will let it alone.  But I recently obtained Dubnow's *History
>of the Jews in Russia and Poland from Earliest Times* and I will follow on
>when I have something to add.

Who is talking about arguments?!  Your statement was:



My feeling is that if somebody has questions or doubts or alternate
conclusions about _details_ then let them go.  



>_By the way_, I would note that I am being accused either of (a) not
>discussing the details, or (b) discussing the details, which means, that
>no matter what I do I am going to be criticized.  There are two things to
>say here.  I am not here to persuade you, nor even the phantom lurkers. I
>am here -- not very often these days -- to express what is on my mind.  It
>is I think rather presumptuous to expect anything otherwise.  

_By the way_ you are being accused of nothing.  I was merely making
observations and asking a few questions.  But, by all means do feel
free to accuse me of being presumptuous (and do feel free to use
whatever fabrications you wish in order to support such an accusation)

>>
>>>My feeling is that if somebody has questions or doubts or alternate
>>>conclusions about _details_ then let them go.  
>>
>>Really?!  How fascinating, Ehrlich.  This of course explains your
>>lengthy discourses on whether the Zyclon pellets were blue or mauve or
>>perhaps your "contributions" to understanding Nyiszli - to name but a
>>few examples.

>Precisely because after setting the structure that I had in mind I started

Oh!  You had a *structure* in mind?  I must have missed it.

[snip]

>>
>>Or are we to take your exhortation to "let them go" as your
>>rationalization for the countless dangling threads you have left
>>during previous visits when you graced us with your presence?
>>

>Again, I am not obligated to pursue threads once I determine that they are
>cold, unproductive, reduced to trolling, irrelevant, or not edifying.  And
>again, I think it rather presumptuous that you would expect otherwise.  

Ah!  Now I understand!  When you are proven wrong a thread is deemed
by you (who of course is the only person whose opinions are of any
value) to be "cold, unproductive [etc]."  Thank you for clarifying
this point.

>>[...]
>>
>>>Unfortunately as we all know the reactions are much more heated than
>that,
>>>the reactions are much more heated than that, 
>>
>>You are quite right, Ehrlich.  Some of us do react very heatedly when
>>confronted with dishonest scholarship such as you demonstrated, as a
>>matter of fact, in the following:
>>
>>
>>
>><4unkhi$fsf@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
>>wrote:
>>
>>[snip]
>>
>>>Lucy Dawidowicz claimed 2 million, from the context I assume she is
>>>referring to Jews only. 
>>
>Here follows Hilary's rebuttal, which stressed the approximate nature of
>Dawidowicz' numbers.  I delete.

Not quite Ehrlich. But  how *clever* of you to delete it before
uttering your interpretation - and to delete the evidence which
contradicts your claim (see below) that you "quoted from memory."  

However, my refutation highlighted the misleading nature of your
_assumption_ from the "context"  The text which you deleted provided
the context which clearly demonstrated the falseness of your
assumption.  Nice try though.

>On this subject, you are right, I did not pursue the thread.  The argument
>had to do with the assertion that no one had ever claimed that more than
>one million Jews had perished at AB.  I quoted from memory, you had the
>source.

Ah! So the book was in your attic. Yet you cited the full title, city,
publisher, date and page number from memory!  My, what amazing talents
you must have, Ehrlich! 

Here again is the quote from your post:
<4unkhi$fsf@newsbf02.news.aol.com>



Lucy Dawidowicz claimed 2 million, from the context I assume she is
referring to Jews only. 

(The War against the Jews / 1933-1945, New York, Holt, 1975, pp.
149-149).



And furthermore, the "argument" was _not_ that "no one had ever
claimed that more than one million Jews had perished" at
Auschwitz-Birkenau.

As Mr. Edeiken had commented in the post to which you were responding:



>A look at the historical record further shows that rather than an agreement with the position of
>the Auschwitz placque, historians of the Holocaust were constantly objecting
>to it.



>  I think on balance I made my point and you made yours.  But there
>is no reason to call my honesty into question.  

No reason to call your honesty into question?  Readers may decide for
themselves:

>After all, she _did_ say
>two million.  And that was all I was trying to say.

Oh so that was _all_ you were trying to say!  Hmmm, well why did you
find it necessary to claim (as you did in the post under discussion):



Sorry, the two quotes [one of which was the Dawidowicz quote you now
claim to have cited from "memory" hro] above at least throw your
contention in doubt.  But the point here is that the 4 million number
is phony, that it was demonstrably a Soviet creation (USSR-8 at the
IMT), and that according to conventionalist sources was deliberately
inflated.  OK -- now this is a case of deliberate deception that
impinges on the Holocaust (_especially_ if we take the non-Jewish
victims into account).  That was my point.

Now since there was one case, and since there were others (Majdanek,
Katyn, Demjanjuk, etc.) it follows that there could be others.[...]



Readers will note that in the post in question, in effect Ehrlich
accused Dawidowicz of "deliberate deception" when in fact, the "2
million" she mentioned (p.149) most likely was derived from Hoss'
statement of March 16, 1946 (p. 148)  And as far as taking the
"non-Jewish victims into account" (since Ehrlich deemed it necessary
to delete the text which proves his claim to be false), Dawidowicz
also stated (p. 148):

	"Most victims at the death camps were Jews, but also Gypsies and
thousands of non-Jews - selected for particular reasons - were
gassed."

>>
>>>so instead of communication
>>>we get polarization that draws people inward where they fester.
>>
>>I don't suppose it has ever occurred to you that such polarization
>>could be ameliorated by the occasional retraction and apology,
>>Ehrlich.  Your blatant dishonesty certainly doesn't draw me inward.
>>But if you want to "fester" in your dishonesty, be my guest.

>I am a bit puzzled by this. Are you implying that if I had more
>retractions and apologies you would have been _kinder_?  I doubt it.  Your
>constant accusations of *dishonesty* don't exactly give a warm feeling all
>over about you, either.

Have I been unkind?!  Oh, well, as someone once said "the truth does
hurt."  But at least I _can_ - and _do_ - back up _my_ accusations,
Ehrlich.  Perhaps that is why you are puzzled:  Like all Holocaust
deniers/distortionists, you obviously find it more comfortable to
dwell in the realm of unsubstantiated accusations.

>>
>>>But thanks for laying some cards out so we could talk this over.  These
>>>are the kind of constructive exchanges I originally envisioned for this
>>>board.
>>
>>Perhaps you will also be kind enough to enlighten us as to how you
>>reconcile your vision for this board with the troll's destructive
>>exchanges - to which you have repeatedly given your blessing and full
>>support in the past.

[irrelevant "comparisons" snipped]

> The nature of the polarization on this
>board is such that when Matt has gotten into that mode, he uses
>anti-Jewish epithets.  But my experience is that the use of anti-Jewish
>epithets does not an anti-semite make, 

Oh, I get it! Blame the nature of "this board." Poor old Matt has no
more responsibility for his words than you do for yours! And according
to the "ehrlichian rules of order" anti-Jewish epithets are quite
acceptable.  Thank you so much for this clarification, Ehrlich.  I
must say, that your whitewashing skills are in fine form.

[...]

>The Matt Giwer I know is an extremely bright man, with great energy,
>perception and humanity.  He has a lot to offer, and it is a pity that so
>few can realize this.  Whatever the lengths of his intemperance or faults
>of expression, he is my friend, and I do not turn on my friends, or desert
>them in an hour of need.

Ehrlich, in one of your early pontifications, you made one of your
statements of the obvious: This one, to the effect that  "people here
are judged by what they say."  To this I would add: some are also
judged to some extent (mistakenly or not), by the virtual friends they
choose to keep.

hro


=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Mon Nov 11 07:03:45 PST 1996
Article: 79140 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: David Irving blaming the Holocaust on Jews: page numbers for Ehrlich
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 07:27:54 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 146
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <566kq7$njr@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <561h2i$l4g@Networking.Stanford.EDU> <19961109182800.NAA19232@ladder01.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: van0324.tvs.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

In <19961109182800.NAA19232@ladder01.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com
wrote:

>In article <561h2i$l4g@Networking.Stanford.EDU>, rcgraves@ix.netcom.com
>(Rich Graves) writes:

>>
>>ehrlich606@aol.com writes:
>>>In article <560b1o$2l3@atlas.uniserve.com>, hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary
>>>Ostrov) writes:
>>>
>>>>Indeed such thinking as Irving gives vent to is "unhealthy and wrong."
>>>>And it is as deceitful of him to attempt to whitewash Hitler and the
>>>>Nazis actions (by blaming the Jews) as it is of you to attempt to
>>>>whitewash Irving (by blaming those who remind the world that -
>>>>regardless of his "expertise"  - Irving is _not_ an honest historian.)
>>>
>>>Well, I think you are engaging in precisely the kind of of simplistic
>>>analysis I deplore when you say that Irving *blames the Jews*.  What
>page
>>>is _that_ on?
>>
>>Page 272 subtly suggests that Herschel Grynszpan was responsible for the
>>Kristallnacht.

>And so on.  Come on, Rich, is he explicit or is he not?  

And so on.  Come on, Ehrlich, can you be less than facile or can you
not?  Are you capable of responding to a post without deleting its
context so as to make your "argument" appear to have some validity?  I
know that - unlike your friend, Ms/Mr Blackmore (gee, I wonder where
s/he disappeared to.  Sure hope she wasn't one of those predatory
net-babes from whose adulation you hoped to protect yourself by
pseudonymity, Ehrlich) - you _can_ set your sights higher than the
uninformed net-newbie lurker, if you really try. 

Do you think that context has any bearing on a discussion?  Think
about it - and ask yourself just who _is_ engaging in "precisely the
kind of simplistic analysis" you claim to deplore.

Anyway, here's some more analysis for you to delete, deplore, or
selectively edit, as you - and your fellow apologists - are wont to do
(should you deign to respond and not deem this thread to be "cold,
unproductive [etc]" of course):

First, from an overview entitled "Encountering Holocaust Denial"
http://www.publiceye.org/holodeni.html



	Within Holocaust revisionism that involves a strain of anti-Jewish
bigotry, there are three distinct schools of thought. These can be
described as: "It happened, but far from the extent to which they say
it did"; "It happened, but other groups suffered just as much as the
Jews"; and "It didn't happen at all." 

	The first school, when it is taken seriously at all in academia, is
considered to be of questionable credibility by most scholars; members
of this school go to great lengths to downplay the Holocaust's
historical significance or imply that the impact and extent of the
Holocaust have been magnified to accomplish particular ends, such as
justification of US aid to Israel or aid to Jewish refugees from the
former USSR. David Irving, author of a number of books on World War
II, the accuracy of which are consistently challenged, could be
considered a member of this school, although he sometimes drifts into
the more nasty schools of Holocaust revisionism. 



And now some words "from the horse's mouth,"  so to speak -

>From  _Nazism_ When history is written by bad men By Jacob Heilbrunn
The New Republic [The Globe and Mail, Saturday, Oct. 19/96 Page D5]
Heilbrunn is reporting on his experience during a luncheon in Irving's
honour:



	During a lull in the conversation, I asked Mr. Iriving about a comment
he'd made earlier:  that critics saw the message of his new books as,
in Thomas McCormack's words, "the Jews brought it on themselves."  Mr.
Irving paused.  The first boycott of Jewish-owned businesses was
preceded, he explained, "by a Jewish declaration of war on Germany.
The Nazis were simply retaliating."  Anyway, he added in a mocking
tone, Goebbels called the boycott for April 1, which was the Jewish
Sabbath.  He was simply trying to get them to obey their own faith.



[more excerpts from the above article are available from Deja News in
my post of Oct. 19/96 "Speaking of David Iriving"]

I did not tape the "appearance" of Irving on a Vancouver radio station
call-in program on March 18, 1996.  However, I listened _very_
carefully.  The experience was such that I felt (and still do) that
Irving's ignominious diatribes made the proverbial "snake-oil
salesman" seem a veritable saint in comparison.  

I doubt that I have ever heard such an outpouring of calculated,
self-serving, "blame the Jews" rhetoric in my entire life.  I lost
track of the number of his unsubstantiated anti-Jewish allusions and
epithets (which you, Ehrlich, from the lofty perch of your "impressive
intellect and knowledge" - not to mention your superior wisdom and
experience - deem not to be anti-Semitic), and euphemisms.

But don't take my word for it, whatever you do!  Check the transcript
>from  an Australian radio interview with Irving in July, 1995.   This
transcript is available on Nizkor.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/i/irving-david/australia/2gb-transcript-0795..html

But the following excerpt will serve as an example (although perhaps
it is too "subtle" for Ehrlich's *demanding* "standards"):



Casey [Interviewer hro]:

It's like your guilty or you're not guilty, you're pregnant. You can't
be a little bit pregnant, you've got to be pregnant or not pregnant.
What you've said to me now is that you would as high as four million
then all the Jews have said about the Holocaust is true and, indeed,
that's a horrible figure but I've never heard it said that David
Irving would agree to four million people being killed in the
Holocaust. That, to me, for you to say it, is quite amazing. 

Irving:

It depends on definitions. It depends on what we mean by that ugly
word Holocaust and I think that the Jewish community were very clever
in inventing that word round about 1970, incidentally. They've
invented the word but they refuse to define what they mean by it. 



Posted/e-mailed to Ehrlich606 (who has indicated that he is taking yet
another respite from gracing us with his wisdom, and who is requested
to respond publicly - if he deigns to respond at all.)

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Mon Nov 11 07:03:46 PST 1996
Article: 79141 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Irving as historian
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 07:28:35 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 36
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <566krf$njr@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <55u71k$1sug$4@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: van0324.tvs.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

In ,
slepokuo@cadvision.com (Orest Slepokura) wrote:

[snip]

>David Irving has published more than 30 books on WW 2 history, many of
>them very outstanding (for example, his early book on Dresden, and his
>most recent one on Goebbels). 

Never heard of "quantity does not necessarily equal quality", Mr.
Slepokura?!  In Irving's case, I believe one would do well to keep
this in mind.

>However, the persecution of David Irving by various governments and
>agencies certainly conveys the impression that what Irving has to say is
>most important. 

Really?!  Do you not know the difference between persecution and
prosecution, Mr. Slepokura?  Nonetheless, the impression you describe
would only be inferred by those who - perhaps like yourself - choose
to engage in blinkered wishful thinking.

[balance of Irving apologia snipped]

Readers interested in less blinkered perspectives on Irving may wish
to peruse:

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/i/irving-david

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Mon Nov 11 07:03:47 PST 1996
Article: 79156 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: David Irving blaming the Holocaust on Jews: page numbers for Ehrlich
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 12:27:39 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 124
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <5676c5$5ef@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <561h2i$l4g@Networking.Stanford.EDU> <19961110013500.UAA26033@ladder01.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: van0118.tvs.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

In <19961110013500.UAA26033@ladder01.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com
wrote:

Today was November 10.  I attended a Kristallnacht commemoration this
evening.  The keynote speakers were historians Deborah Dwork and
Robert Jan van Pelt, co-authors of _Auschwitz, 1270 to the Present_.
In her introduction Ms. Dwork commented that Nov. 9 (1938) - the Night
of Broken Glass - was "the end of the beginning," and Nov. 10, "the
beginning of the end."

>More on David Irving:

>Behind closed doors the Final Solution, in all its heathen
>criminality, was already undergoing a shift in emphasis.
>*Goebbels*, p. 386

[Ehrlich's analysis of the above "quote" deleted.  Based on his
previous deliberately misleading (and still unacknowledged)
interpretation of Dawidowicz, I have no reason to place any confidence
in the accuracy of his commentary.]

>There seems to me great compassion here for the fate of the Jews.  

Care to cite some page references for this "great compassion" you seem
to have found, so that others who have the book can verify this?

The
>ethnic bifurcation I found distasteful in *Uprising* is absent.  The book
>has two flaws to conventional interpretations: AH is only on the periphery
>of knowledge, and mass gassings are not explicitly acknowledged.  That
>hardly makes the Irving, or his book, anti-semitic.

What was that you mentioned the other day, Ehrlich, about "deploring
simplistic analysis?"  I find the above paragraph to be an outstanding
example of "simplistic analysis." 

>Now as to the issue of my sympathy.  Yes, I have sympathy for the mistrust
>and fear that manifests itself among many Jews.  

Examples, please, of this "mistrust and fear," if it's not too much to
ask, Ehrlich?  Speaking for myself, while I have no reason to trust
Irving, or you - considering your performance in this newsgroup - I
have no fear of either of you.  Contempt, yes - but certainly not
fear.

>Certainly.  One of the
>reasons for my interpretation of these events overrall is that it
>_explains_.  

Your interpretation "explains" what, Ehrlich?  Certainly it _reveals_
much about you

>One of the main causes of Jewish fear and mistrust, I think,
>comes from the fact that there has still not been a _convincing_
>explanation.  

Convincing explanation of what, Ehrlich?  Of why people like you and
Irving masquerade as voices of reason and seekers of truth - wrapping
yourselves in the flags of freedom of speech or speculation, while
engaging in the promulgation of willful lies, half-truths and
deliberate distortions?

Well, Irving does it because he makes money at it - and because, as
Heilbrunn observed in the article I referred to elsewhere in this
thread, 

	"In short, Mr. Irving's books cannot be divorced from the man and his
historical mission.  That mission is to normalize Hitler and Nazism so
as to remove the unique stain of the Final Solution from Germany.
[...] since the second World War, it has been taboo in the West to
espouse anti-Semitism publicly.  Mr. Irving's project is to smash this
taboo."

But what's your motivation, Ehrlich?

>Compare the criticism many Jews even had for Goldhagen's
>thesis. 

Care to cite some examples to substantiate this, Ehrlich?

>Mistrust and fear can be understood, but that people can have their
>careers wrecked over this issue by other people motivated by mistrust and
>fear is really too much.  

Gee, sure sounds to me like you're "blaming the Jews" - just like
Irving who, in reality, is the author of his own misfortune.

>This is a flag to me that what is need is more
>open discussion of these matters, not less.  

We do have open discussion, Ehrlich.  Everyday in this newsgroup, as a
matter of fact.  What might help though, is more *honest* discussion -
and less undeserved glorification of the likes of Irving.

[...]

>I can understand where Lipstadt, Nizkor, survivors, and others are coming
>from.  But I think they presume too much about their assumed enemies:  I
>think in many cases they are attributing motives that simply are not
>there.  

We don't have to _presume_ anything, Ehrlich.  The words of those whom
_you_ call our "enemies" speak for themselves - and tell volumes about
their motives.

And the reality is, Ehrlich, these "enemies" are not Lipstadt's,
Nizkor's nor survivors'.  But they _are_ the enemies of truth because
they seek to plant seeds of doubt in the minds of those who may not
have known that Nov. 9 was the "end of the beginning" - and Nov. 10,
"the beginning of the end."

http://search.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?places/germany/kristallnacht

[balance deleted]

Posted/e-mailed

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Wed Nov 13 06:28:01 PST 1996
Article: 79190 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: David Irving blaming the Holocaust on Jews: page numbers for Ehrlich
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 20:27:46 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 58
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <5682g6$hme@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <561h2i$l4g@Networking.Stanford.EDU> <19961110013500.UAA26033@ladder01.news.aol.com> <5653bk$fd4@rks1.urz.tu-dresden.de>
NNTP-Posting-Host: van0326.tvs.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

In <5653bk$fd4@rks1.urz.tu-dresden.de>, uroess@urz.tu-dresden.de
(Ulrich Roessler) wrote:

>ehrlich606@aol.com wrote:

>: More on David Irving:

>: Behind closed doors the Final Solution, in all its heathen
>: criminality, was already undergoing a shift in emphasis.
>: *Goebbels*, p. 386

>...

>: Irving also includes all of the references to gas chambers and gas vans,
>: either as they come from Allied propaganda, or as Goebbels.  He even
>: references explicitly many of the suspicious documents that some hold as
>: corroborating proof of the gassings.  What Irving does _not_ do is
>: explicitly endorse mass gassings, neither does he deny them.  He certainly
>: does not deny that Jews are being murdered in massive numbers.

>How convenient. In short Irving writes book after book about the
>chief Nazis and cannot come to terms with the very basic things, 
>a simple outline of the known facts about the persecution and destruction
>of the European Jews by the Nazis 1933-45.

>Instead, a certain set of documents (I very much doubt that Irving could 
>reference all of them in a 800pp. book) are simply labelled as "suspicious", 
>or "Allied propaganda", aptly equating them with "Goebbels", whatever that 
>means exactly.

>I guess, this is Irving's style, not Mr Ehrlich's. But tiptoeing in written
>around any assessement of the facts, amounting to a serious analysis of these
>documents, seems the very basic method in  the "Revisionist enterprise".
>That's not historiography, it's simply pathetic self-delusion.

With respect, Mr. Roessler, assuming that Irving has in fact read the
material in question, I find it difficult to believe that his analysis
and conclusions are the result of *self-delusion.*  It seems to me
that his analysis and conclusions (and those of Ehrlich) are directed
solely towards deluding _others_, i.e. their unwitting and uninformed
audience.  But, yes, I do agree that it is quite pathetic.

>And, in Gord McFee's words, it's really despicable, just because both,
>Mr.Ehrlich and Irving, should know better.

And if they have in fact _read_ the documents in question, they _do_
know better - how can they not?!  Which makes them all the more
despicable, IMHO.

Posted/e-mailed

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Wed Nov 13 06:28:02 PST 1996
Article: 79215 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Veterans Day
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 01:32:30 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 39
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <568kbe$jvd@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <328646E1.2CE4@rio.com>   <3287A8B8.61C3@nbnet.nb.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: van0123.tvs.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

In <3287A8B8.61C3@nbnet.nb.ca>, Keith Morrison 
wrote:

>Mark Van Alstine wrote:
>> 
>> In article ,
>> schwartz@infinet.com (Sara aka Perrrfect) wrote:
>> 
>> > I'd like to take a brief moment here to thank all the veterans who've
>> > served in the US Military.
>> >
>> > A special hug to Chuck Ferree.
>> >
>> > Thank you all,
>> > Sara
>> >
>> 
>> I'll second that!

>Sad that on such an occasion that the spectre of American ethnocentricism
>once again raises its ugly head. [/humour]

>On behalf of the five billion people on Earth who are *not* Americans,
>have a good Rememberance Day.

(And on behalf of spell checkers everywhere, let us hope that by next
Nov. 11, we will not forget that it is "Remembrance" Day.)

But I add my voice of thanks to all who served - and my hope that
those who would have us forget _why_ we honour the memory of those who
died, shall not succeed.

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Wed Nov 13 06:28:03 PST 1996
Article: 79217 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!node2.frontiernet.net!data.ramona.vix.com!news1.digital.com!pa.dec.com!crl.dec.com!news-ext.crl.dec.com!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!howland.erols.net!newspump.sol.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!van-bc!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Irving's "great compassion" for the fate of the Jews
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 03:35:34 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 79
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <568ri5$kfg@atlas.uniserve.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: van0326.tvs.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Ehrlich606@aol.com Nov. 10/96  In Message-ID
<19961110013500.UAA26033@ladder01.news.aol.com> 
"Re: David Irving blaming the Holocaust on Jews: page numbers for
Ehrlich":

[Ehrlich is proffering his analysis of Irving's _Goebbels_]

	"There seems to me great compassion here for the fate of the Jews."

__________________

>From  an October 12, 1991, UseNet  posting by d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se
(Bertil Jonell),  from the Chalmers
University of Technology, Gothenburg, Sweden. 

[The posting is available on Nizkor.  In the following excerpts,
ellipses are mine. hro]

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/i/irving-david/sweden/nazi-links-televised..html#IRVING



On Wednesday the eighteenth of September 1991, the Swedish National
Television aired a documentary by Michael Schmidt called
'Warheit Macht Frei'

[...]

Background: Michael Schmidt is a German journalist who managed to
infiltrate and document the neo-nazi movement during the last
two years. According to background articles in the press when it was
sent he did this by simply asking Michael Ku"hnen if he could
document the neo-nazi movement. Kühnen accepted and since Kühnen had
accepted Schmidt, his associates did too. 

-bertil-
---------

Narrator:  "Munich, 21st of April 1990. The day after Hitler's
birthday. Löwenbraukeller. Eight hundred persons have been gathered to
hear what they want to hear. They are waiting for David Irving, who is
going to say it: Nobody was gassed in Auschwitz in the third reich.
History is revised, forged."

{...]

( [...] Also there, of course, is the next speaker, David Irving, the
historian.) 

Scene:  Laughter from the audience 

Irving continues: 

	"The one-man gaschamber looked like a sedan-chair, camouflaged as a

	telephone booth. Now, how did one fool the poor victim to enter this 	
	gaschamber? A telephone bell was rung inside and the privates said: I

	think it is for you!

Scene:   More laughter from the audience 



If Ehrlich is still gracing us with his presence, perhaps he will
explain this example of Irving's "great compassion for the fate of the
Jews."

Then again, perhaps in the  [tm]
"compassion" has a unique connotation, quite unknown to those of us
who are more inclined to mean what we say - and say what we mean.

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Wed Nov 13 06:28:03 PST 1996
Article: 79237 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Irving's "great compassion" for the fate of the Jews
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 05:00:13 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 79
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <5690gr$krp@atlas.uniserve.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: van0328.tvs.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Ehrlich606@aol.com Nov. 10/96  In Message-ID
<19961110013500.UAA26033@ladder01.news.aol.com> 
"Re: David Irving blaming the Holocaust on Jews: page numbers for
Ehrlich":

[Ehrlich is proffering his analysis of Irving's _Goebbels_]

	"There seems to me great compassion here for the fate of the Jews."

__________________

>From  an October 12, 1991, UseNet  posting by d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se
(Bertil Jonell),  from the Chalmers
University of Technology, Gothenburg, Sweden. 

[The posting is available on Nizkor.  In the following excerpts,
ellipses are mine. hro]

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/i/irving-david/sweden/nazi-links-televised..html#IRVING



On Wednesday the eighteenth of September 1991, the Swedish National
Television aired a documentary by Michael Schmidt called
'Warheit Macht Frei'

[...]

Background: Michael Schmidt is a German journalist who managed to
infiltrate and document the neo-nazi movement during the last
two years. According to background articles in the press when it was
sent he did this by simply asking Michael Ku"hnen if he could
document the neo-nazi movement. Kühnen accepted and since Kühnen had
accepted Schmidt, his associates did too. 

-bertil-
---------

Narrator:  "Munich, 21st of April 1990. The day after Hitler's
birthday. Löwenbraukeller. Eight hundred persons have been gathered to
hear what they want to hear. They are waiting for David Irving, who is
going to say it: Nobody was gassed in Auschwitz in the third reich.
History is revised, forged."

[...]

( [...] Also there, of course, is the next speaker, David Irving, the
historian.) 

Scene:  Laughter from the audience 

Irving continues: 

	"The one-man gaschamber looked like a sedan-chair, camouflaged as a

	telephone booth. Now, how did one fool the poor victim to enter this 	
	gaschamber? A telephone bell was rung inside and the privates said: I

	think it is for you!

Scene:   More laughter from the audience 



If Ehrlich is still gracing us with his presence, perhaps he will
explain this example of Irving's "great compassion for the fate of the
Jews."

Then again, perhaps in the  [tm]
"compassion" has a unique connotation, quite unknown to those of us
who are more inclined to mean what we say - and say what we mean.

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Sat Nov 16 06:58:42 PST 1996
Article: 79730 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,fl.general,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Attack on Alt.Revisionism -- Gate.Net Refuses to Help
Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 05:06:02 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 17
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <328d3360.30097904@news.uniserve.com>
References: <558uaj$38a@panix2.panix.com> <327a0973.2522479@news.demon.co.uk>  <327fdff5.15295167@news.demon.co.uk> <55p3bm$c8o@panix2.panix.com> <847307501.16749.6@vertigo.combase.com><558uaj$38a@panix2.panix.com> <327a0973.2522479@news.demon.co.uk>  <327fdff5.15295167@news.demon.co.uk> <55p3bm$c8o@panix2.panix.com> <847307501.16749.6@vertigo.combase.com> <56havv$hqb@news3.gte.net> <56irj0$1f0s$3@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: van0204.tvs.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/32.230
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca soc.culture.jewish:91655 alt.revisionism:79730

On 15 Nov 1996 22:41:36 GMT, gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:

["conversation"  - I use the term very loosely in this instance -
between Troll G and Troll H snipped]

>
>My God!  Now it's talking to itself.

Probably because  its  No. 1 fan, Ehrlich, isn't around to whitewash
it (or wash its mouth out with soap.)

hro
=====================
Hilary Ostrov
E-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
WWW: http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project  http://www.nizkor.org/


From hostrov@uniserve.com Sat Nov 16 06:58:44 PST 1996
Article: 79791 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news-out.internetmci.com!pull-feed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news-feed.iguide.com!delphi.com!cam-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!van-bc!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Soviets were fighting Hitler in 1956 in Hungary? [David Irving]
Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 05:09:05 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 48
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <328d3929.31579260@news.uniserve.com>
References: <560b1o$2l3@atlas.uniserve.com> <19961109013300.UAA05888@ladder01.news.aol.com> <32872eff.245845377@news.zilker.net> <56hb0s$hqb@news3.gte.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: van0204.tvs.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/32.230

On Fri, 15 Nov 1996 08:51:44 GMT, Giwer the witless troll wrote:

>mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:
>
>>ehrlich606@aol.com wrote:
>
>>>>Indeed such thinking as Irving gives vent to is "unhealthy and wrong."
>>>>And it is as deceitful of him to attempt to whitewash Hitler and the
>>>>Nazis actions (by blaming the Jews) as it is of you to attempt to
>>>>whitewash Irving (by blaming those who remind the world that -
>>>>regardless of his "expertise"  - Irving is _not_ an honest historian.)
>>>>
>>>
>>>Well, I think you are engaging in precisely the kind of of simplistic
>>>analysis I deplore when you say that Irving *blames the Jews*.  What page
>>>is _that_ on?
>>>
>
>>Rather than attack Hilary personally, you could have simply asked for
>>the reference she has in mind. BTW, it seems that the recent speeches
>>of Mr. Irving suggest that he is the focus of some world-wide
>>conspiracy. I think that he exaggerates his importance to the world.

Oh, but Mike ... Irving _is_ important to the likes of Ehrlich - I'm
sure he provides Ehrlich with a role mode for his selective editing
and distortions.  And, given Ehrlich's recent exercises in adulation
for both Irving and the troll, it is not surprising that Ehrlich
should pretend to be so blind to Irving's faults.

>[...]  She is of the
>intellectual level of the average holohugger.  

Looks like Ehrlich has sent the witless troll as his pitch-hitter.  No
longer content to simply flaunt his ignorance, the troll now insists
on flaunting his "intelligence envy."

What a pathetically monotonous waste of bandwidth his posts are.  They
even lack the mild amusement value they presented in his early days
here.

Posted/e-mailed to Mr. Curtis

hro
=====================
Hilary Ostrov
E-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
WWW: http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project  http://www.nizkor.org/


From hostrov@uniserve.com Tue Nov 19 06:44:29 PST 1996
Article: 79934 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: TROLL IN "PSEUDO-REASON MODE" ALERT!
Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 21:34:13 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 53
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <328d9eed.57635042@news.uniserve.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: van0201.tvs.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/32.230

In his state of perpetual failure at anything and everything (except
wasting bandwidth, of course) to which he turns his keyboard, the
witless troll now attempts to defame an Irish tradition:

On Sat, 16 Nov 1996 05:05:42 GMT, in <328d43a7.13212867@news.gte.net>,
pj@o.rourke (Leprechaun) wrote:

Is the Giwer-troll trying to be funny?  Leprechaun?!  I doubt that we
shall ever encounter anyone who would be the least likely candidate
for this nym than he whose visage appears on Giwer's website.  This
actually runs a close second to Allan Kennady adopting the nym
"Ehrlich."

Anyway, it looks as though the troll is (temporarily, no doubt) back
in  recycling his lies:

>Funny thing, when I got on here about a year ago, I was discussing
>a particular tape recording.  When I expressed doubts about it, I was
>called a nazi and an anti-semite out of no where.  Up until that point
>I had been completely civil and yet, when I pointed out the specious
>nature of this tape and other points about it, the name calling
>started.  How do you explain that?  

You see he _is_ trying to be funny.  Chalk up another failure for the
Giwer-troll.

Newcomers to this newsgroup would be well-advised to refrain from
feeding the troll.   He's really on a starvation diet (trying to
shrink himself to fit his newest nym).

But, he should be moving back into  any
post now. 

For detailed and documented evidence of his past performances, point
your web-browser to any one of the following:

http://www.nizkor.org/encouragements/giwer.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/

http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/antisemite
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/lies
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/c-word
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/fatbroad
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/net-abuse
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/email

hro
=====================
Hilary Ostrov
E-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
WWW: http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project  http://www.nizkor.org/


From hostrov@uniserve.com Tue Nov 19 09:34:09 PST 1996
Article: 80397 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!hookup!news.uoregon.edu!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: TROLL IN "PSEUDO-REASON MODE" ALERT!
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 08:49:39 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 63
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <32917490.52311632@news.uniserve.com>
References: <328d9eed.57635042@news.uniserve.com> <328ebc11.108252231@news.gte.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: van0216.tvs.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/32.230

On Sun, 17 Nov 1996 11:56:55 GMT, in
<328ebc11.108252231@news.gte.net>, 

The troll responds in (for him) an almost civil fashion:

[...]

>>On Sat, 16 Nov 1996 05:05:42 GMT, in <328d43a7.13212867@news.gte.net>,
>>pj@o.rourke (Leprechaun) wrote:
>>
>>Is the Giwer-troll trying to be funny?  Leprechaun?!  I doubt that we
>>shall ever encounter anyone who would be the least likely candidate
>>for this nym than he whose visage appears on Giwer's website.  
>
>	I have starred in three movies.  

As a leprechaun?!  Of course, how could I have forgotten -  I wrote
the reviews for the N.Y. and L.A. Times!

[...]

>>
>>You see he _is_ trying to be funny.  Chalk up another failure for the
>>Giwer-troll.
>>
>>Newcomers to this newsgroup would be well-advised to refrain from
>>feeding the troll.   He's really on a starvation diet (trying to
>>shrink himself to fit his newest nym).
>
>	Why would anyone believe you?  

Not a totally unreasonable question.  But I'll stake my credibility
against yours, anyday!  And, no doubt, readers _will_ decide for
themselves.  Here's a few of those URLs again:

http://www.nizkor.org/encouragements/giwer.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/

>You are a jewess.  

If you think - for some strange reason - that my religion has any
bearing whatsoever on my credibility, then at least get your spelling
correct.  The word is "Jewess."   Oh, and you could save yourself a
keystroke by using the phrase, "You are Jewish" instead.

>Right out of the
>lying YFE mold.  
>	

Oh well, the civility was nice while it lasted.  This is not quite the
 I had predicted, but then we have seen
ample evidence of that in other threads.  

Besides, as you well know,  Mr. Edeiken is a very honest, respected
and knowledgable person.  So I am honoured that you would deem that I
am "right out of the YFE mold."

hro
=====================
Hilary Ostrov
E-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
WWW: http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project  http://www.nizkor.org/


From hostrov@uniserve.com Wed Nov 20 06:02:13 PST 1996
Article: 80449 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Attack on Alt.Revisionism -- Gate.Net Refuses to Help
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 00:46:29 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 30
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <328fb0fa.19694327@news.uniserve.com>
References: <558uaj$38a@panix2.panix.com> <559u0o$1m2s@news.gate.net>  <327a0973.2522479@news.demon.co.uk> <55dqh0$klm@Networking.Stanford.EDU> <327d30de.8680278@news.demon.co.uk>  <847905148.2404.11@vertigo.combase.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: van0220.tvs.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/32.230

On Wed, 13 Nov 1996 07:14:01 -0500, in
<847905148.2404.11@vertigo.combase.com>, Hardwire
 wrote:

>Dene Bebbington wrote:
>
>> He was only identified by those aware of him and his silly tactics. When
>> he masquerades as other posts (such as Ken McVay) then this is
>> unacceptable, and whilst regulars may be wise to his antics, many other
>> readers of this newsgroup may not.
>> 
>
>He was identified because he clearly intended the posts to be seen as a
>joke and a slur on the people posting to this newsgroup.  First and
>foremost the tip-off was that he included his OWN signature file with
>the posts.  He wasn't attempting to post forgeries, he was attempting to
>be satirical... or course the effect was totally lost on the malcontent
>hunchbrains in this forum.

You do of course realize that if there is any truth to this
magnificent thesis of yours then all you have have proven is that the
troll has obviously failed - yet again.  Nice try though, Mr.
Hardwire.

hro
=====================
Hilary Ostrov
E-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
WWW: http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project  http://www.nizkor.org/


From hostrov@uniserve.com Wed Nov 20 09:28:04 PST 1996
Article: 91655 of soc.culture.jewish
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,fl.general,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Attack on Alt.Revisionism -- Gate.Net Refuses to Help
Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 05:06:02 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 17
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <328d3360.30097904@news.uniserve.com>
References: <558uaj$38a@panix2.panix.com> <327a0973.2522479@news.demon.co.uk>  <327fdff5.15295167@news.demon.co.uk> <55p3bm$c8o@panix2.panix.com> <847307501.16749.6@vertigo.combase.com><558uaj$38a@panix2.panix.com> <327a0973.2522479@news.demon.co.uk>  <327fdff5.15295167@news.demon.co.uk> <55p3bm$c8o@panix2.panix.com> <847307501.16749.6@vertigo.combase.com> <56havv$hqb@news3.gte.net> <56irj0$1f0s$3@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: van0204.tvs.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/32.230
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca soc.culture.jewish:91655 alt.revisionism:79730

On 15 Nov 1996 22:41:36 GMT, gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:

["conversation"  - I use the term very loosely in this instance -
between Troll G and Troll H snipped]

>
>My God!  Now it's talking to itself.

Probably because  its  No. 1 fan, Ehrlich, isn't around to whitewash
it (or wash its mouth out with soap.)

hro
=====================
Hilary Ostrov
E-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
WWW: http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project  http://www.nizkor.org/


From hostrov@uniserve.com Mon Nov 25 06:24:06 PST 1996
Article: 80693 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!newsjunkie.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: **************** G I W E R   R U L E S  ***************************************************
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 21:12:24 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 73
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <3290be75.5685580@news.uniserve.com>
References: <32793cdd.441542@news.zippo.com> <32798fa9.24153673@news.srv.ualberta.ca> <56hb04$hqb@news3.gte.net>  <328e6ae1.88789722@news.gte.net>  <328ff3f9.59257648@news.gte.net> <3290a343.362212464@news.zilker.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: van0123.tvs.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/32.230

On Mon, 18 Nov 1996 18:06:45 GMT, in
<3290a343.362212464@news.zilker.net>, mike@aimetering.com (Mike
Curtis) wrote:

[...]

>[The troll-frog who would a-lyin' go] wrote:

>>
>>	If you would take a look at the history of it, altl.revisionism was
>>created as a result of revisionists attempting to discuss it in other
>>conferences.  Alt.revisionism is the resulting conference for
>>revisionism to be discussed.  
>>
>
>What this unintelligent individual is trying to say is that only

I beg to differ, Mr. Curtis.  While he is definitely an unintelligent
individual, he is not trying to say anything of any consequence.  The
evidence (such as the above) of his repeated failure to engage
whatever might be left of his addled brain-cells prior to engaging his
keyboard must surely be proof of that.

[snip]

>This individual wants people to think that  the "revisionism" of the
>Holocaust discussed here is true historical revisionism when it isn't.

To the contrary!  As his posts clearly demonstrate, his only interest
is in duping those who are incapable of rational thought.

As we have seen countless times, the troll is good for nothing - as
are his posts - except perhaps for demonstrating what a sham the
deniers' version of "revisionism" really is.  But he does seem to have
this need to continue proving to himself what a complete and utter
failure he is.

>So this individual feels that since these "revisionists" can't seem to
>meet the criteria they have burdened themselves with then those who
>disagree have no place here. IOW this individual seeks no discussion
>of history but rather a discussion of a fantasy or a fiction that
>there was no holocaust at all. Sounds like a coward's game.

Well, I've always believed in giving the devil his due.  But I think
you give the troll too much credit!   IMHO, to infer from his postings
(by far the majority of which are quite pointless) that he has an
interest in "discussion" of _any_ kind greatly distorts the meaning of
the word *discussion.*

OTOH, that his "defenders" seem to think so highly of him - while
others of the "revisionist" ilk remain so resoundingly silent in the
face of his antics - certainly shows how desperate _they_ must be for
some endorsement of their "arguments."   (The expression "scraping the
bottom of the barrel" comes to mind!)

Funny, the so-called "serious revisionists" are constantly clamouring
for  "debate."   Yet, their use of this newsgroup, along with their
tacit endorsement - and in some cases "glorification" -  of such
Giwer-trollic-abuse of this newsgroup, strongly suggests that "debate"
must be the _last_ thing they want.

Yep.  "Revisionism," this great adventure of the 20th century,
according to dear old Ingrid (who describes Giwer as "indefatigable").
Certainly sounds like a coward's game to me.

Posted/e-mailed

hro
=====================
Hilary Ostrov
E-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
WWW: http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project  http://www.nizkor.org/


From hostrov@uniserve.com Mon Nov 25 06:24:06 PST 1996
Article: 80989 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: [REPOST]    Belling/Blackmore:  Profiles in Cowardice?
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 22:51:27 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 193
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <3294d6ad.12584820@news.uniserve.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: van0206.tvs.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/32.230

Ah!  Mr/Ms Belling/Blackmore, I see that you have returned following
your (no doubt) unanticipated "respite"  which began sometime around
Oct. 26, as I recall.  Had I known you were about to depart, I most
certainly would have e-mailed you a courtesy copy of my Oct. 26 post.

However, I am sure you will want to respond in order to clear up the
questions that have arisen, so I am reposting it here for your
convenience.

--[BEGIN REPOST]--

Sometimes "surfing" Deja News can be as enlightening as surfing the
Web.  Mr. "Blackmore" recently enjoined readers to search for his
"answers" to Mr. Gandhi's questions.  Mr. "Blackmore" claimed to have
posted such answers "over and over again."  Perhaps other readers were
more successful than I in finding these alleged "answers" but I didn't
find any.  During the course of my search, however, I _did_ find the
following profile:

http://xp5.dejanews.com/profile.xp?author=rblackmore@juno.com

AUTHOR PROFILE: rblackmore@juno.com

------------------------------------------------------------------------

•921 articles posted between 1996/07/28 and 1996/10/25. •85 %
followups. •Number of articles posted to individual newsgroups
(slightly skewed by cross-postings): 
•917 alt.revisionism •2 acadia.chat •1 alt.best.of.internet •1
alt.rock-n-roll.oldies 

Well, alt.best.of.internet and alt.rock-n-roll.oldies seemed
self-explanatory, but I had no idea what acadia.chat might be so I
decided to follow the convenient link from the profile.  There I
found:

*************************
Article 2 of 2


Subject:      look and you shall see...
From:         rblackmore@juno.com
Date:         1996/07/29
Message-Id:   <4thi81$rlr@juliana.sprynet.com>
Organization: Sprynet News Service
Newsgroups:   acadia.chat

hello ? antone out there 12-14 e-mail me . i am thirteen and ... well
if you e-mail me at jbelling@sprynet.com 

you can find out more about me i am a female.
 
*************************

This was an interesting discovery!  In reading the contributions of
Mr. "Blackmore" to alt.revisionism, I have often wondered if perhaps
"he" was a young teenager who had - unbeknownst to his parents - been
using the family computer.  And here it turns out that "he" is not
only a teenager, but also a "she" who invites responses to yet another
persona, one "jbelling."

I also found the date of this particular post quite interesting.   A
day later (July 30), I had received two e-mails from
  Here are the headers:

From: rblackmore@juno.com
Received: (from rblackmore@juno.com) by x6.boston.juno.com (queuemail)
	id QAA11270; Tue, 30 Jul 1996 16:16:45 EDT
To: hostrov@uniserve.com
Subject: Re: Hilary is full of it

From: rblackmore@juno.com
Received: (from rblackmore@juno.com) by x6.boston.juno.com (queuemail)
	id QAA12788; Tue, 30 Jul 1996 16:24:04 EDT
To: hostrov@uniserve.com
Subject: Re: Hilary is full of it


Oh, in case Mr/Ms Blackmore/Belling is wondering why I failed to
respond to either of these missives, I ignored both because neither
message answered the question I had posed to the writer (whoever s/he
might have been):

*******************
Subject:      Re: Hilary is full of it
From:         hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Date:         1996/07/30
Message-Id:   <4tlq6n$1la@atlas.uniserve.com>
Distribution: world
References:   <4tkqgf$d0h@juliana.sprynet.com>
Organization: myssiwyg*
Newsgroups:   alt.revisionism


In <4tkqgf$d0h@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

>Not all revisionists are racists, much as you would like the web-browsers to think so, Hilary.

Mr/Ms. Blackmore:

Perhaps, since you choose not to observe customary USENET courtesies
and conventions, you would care to elaborate on this comment.  You
could start by giving some indication of what I might have said - and
where - that has led you to this particular erroneous conclusion.

Posted/e-mailed

hro
[sig deleted. hro]

*************************

Nor, I might add, did his/her "public" response, 4 days later:

*****************
Subject:      Re: Hilary is full of it
From:         rblackmore@juno.com
Date:         1996/08/03
Message-Id:   <4tv1ol$sc3@juliana.sprynet.com>
Organization: Sprynet News Service
Newsgroups:   alt.revisionism



Oh!  I am sorry!  So you don't believe revisionists are racists?

********************

Gee, does anyone see anything familiar in this particular posting
pattern?!

For the record,  it seems that Mr/Ms "Blackmore" decided to retire
his/her jbelling alter ego in September:

http://xp5.dejanews.com/profile.xp?author=jbelling@sprynet.com

AUTHOR PROFILE: jbelling@sprynet.com

------------------------------------------------------------------------

•54 articles posted between 1996/06/17 and 1996/09/05. •46 %
followups. •Number of articles posted to individual newsgroups
(slightly skewed by cross-postings): 
•45 alt.revisionism •2 alt.feminazis •2 alt.politics.white-power •1
alt.homosexual •1 alt.recovery.catholicism •1 alt.romance.mature-adult
•1 alt.skinheads •1 alt.teens 

So tell me, Mr/Ms "Blackmore/Belling" who really _did_ send me those
two e-mails on July 30?  A little 13 year-old girl?  If not, which of
your alter egos sent me the e-mails?

Oh, whichever one of you sent the e-mail reply to the courtesy copy of
my post in the thread  Re: Mike Curtis's "Gas Chambers" (Oct. 25),
please post your e-mail publicly (to alt.revisionism - not one of the
other newsgroups s/he has frequented on occasion) if you would like a
response.

And do tell us, Mr/Ms "Blackmore/Belling"  should we be asking if you
know what your children are up to?  Or should we be asking if your
children know what you are up to?  

Oh, btw,  was s/he disappointed that  didn't
reply to 's scintillating response to ebilling's
plea?  

And while you are at it, maybe you could put away all your little
masks (yes, I know Halloween is coming up soon, but do try) and let
the REAL Blackmore/Belling person speak.  Let him/her put forward
(finally) - in a concise, adult fashion - a statement of his/her
position along with _verifiable_ sources for any claims s/he might
make in support of this "position." [With or without help from his/her
ghost writer.]

Or would you prefer to continue to work on the "Profile in Cowardice"
autobiographical portrait that you are painting for us with your
little one-liners and a multitude of other unartful dodges?

[sig deleted. hro]

---[END REPOST]--

Posted and (this time) e-mailed to Mr/Ms Blackmore/Belling - just in
case s/he has to make yet another unannounced, sudden departure :>)

Please respond publicly.  Thank you.

hro

=====================
Hilary Ostrov
E-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
WWW: http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project  http://www.nizkor.org/


From hostrov@uniserve.com Mon Nov 25 06:24:07 PST 1996
Article: 81191 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!node2.frontiernet.net!news.texas.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: FINALLY!!! AN HONEST DEFINITION OF "REVISIONISM"!!!
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 08:49:37 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 20
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <32915f69.46896475@news.uniserve.com>
References: <32793cdd.441542@news.zippo.com> <32798fa9.24153673@news.srv.ualberta.ca> <56hb04$hqb@news3.gte.net>  <328e6ae1.88789722@news.gte.net>  <328ff3f9.59257648@news.gte.net> <32902d5e.8937767@news.srv.ualberta.ca> <32913e28.21872178@news.gte.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: van0216.tvs.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/32.230

On Tue, 19 Nov 1996 05:56:46 GMT, in <32913e28.21872178@news.gte.net>,

the troll from gte.net wrote:

>Revisionism is a process, not a fact.  
>

Thank you for this acknowledgement that "revisionism" has nothing to
do with facts (and therefore has nothing to do with history of the
Holocaust.) And for confirming that it is nothing more than a process
by which deniers attempt to disguise the bigotry, hypocrisy  and
ignorance that underlie their hatred of Jews and/or Israel - to which
you have so often given voice.

hro
=====================
Hilary Ostrov
E-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
WWW: http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project  http://www.nizkor.org/


From hostrov@uniserve.com Mon Nov 25 06:24:08 PST 1996
Article: 81192 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!node2.frontiernet.net!news.texas.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Words of Wisdom from the Tommy-Twit
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 08:49:35 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 21
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <3290d701.11971063@news.uniserve.com>
References: <56lk21$jkl@nnrp3.farm.idt.net>  <328EA9BB.7784@intrport.net> <32923337.3940374@199.0.216.204>
NNTP-Posting-Host: van0216.tvs.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/32.230

On Sun, 17 Nov 1996 15:58:35 GMT, in <32923337.3940374@199.0.216.204>,
tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran aka the denier in search of a persona)
wrote:

[snip]

>
>	Loyalty to love and marriage is one thing, but when you let it
>direct any aesthetic notions about politics, philosophy and life, it
>is weakness.	

Do tell us Li'l Tommy, what are "aesthetic notions about politics,
philosophy and life?"  Or were you simply under the influence of some
kind of anaesthetic when you wrote this little gem?!

hro
=====================
Hilary Ostrov
E-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
WWW: http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project  http://www.nizkor.org/


From hostrov@uniserve.com Thu Nov 28 07:01:47 PST 1996
Article: 82238 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Knowledge of a writer and his words (and "evaluation" thereof)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 07:30:28 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 22
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <329bebf7.13146251@news.uniserve.com>
References: <329aa02a.951332675@news.zilker.net> <19961126051500.AAA02108@ladder01.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: van0415.tvs.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/32.230

On 26 Nov 1996 05:13:10 GMT, in
<19961126051500.AAA02108@ladder01.news.aol.com>, ceacaa@aol.com wrote:

[snip]

>
>Without knowing more about the man [Nyszli]
>or at least the genisis of his book, it is
>hard to really evaluate his story.

Perhaps.  But, we need know very little about you, Mr. Allen, to
determine the genesis of your voluminous posts.  And it is _very_ easy
to evaluate _your_ story (regardless of how often you try to change it
in order to avoid acknowledging your frequently recycled errors - and
other nefarious "debating" strategies.)

hro
=====================
Hilary Ostrov
E-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
WWW: http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project  http://www.nizkor.org/


From hostrov@uniserve.com Sat Nov 30 11:27:37 PST 1996
Article: 82780 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'However, they were herded into the gas chambers and gassed'
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 05:32:03 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 43
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <329fb830.8808480@news.uniserve.com>
References: <32940568.28868760@news.txdirect.net> <577kfi$ln0@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: van0329.tvs.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/32.230

On 23 Nov 1996 19:49:06 GMT, in <577kfi$ln0@juliana.sprynet.com>,
rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

>>   hmazal@txdirect.net (Harry W. Mazal OBE) writes:
>>  On 20 Nov 1996 09:59:31 GMT, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>>  
>>  >   hmazal@txdirect.net (Harry W. Mazal OBE) writes:
>>  >  On 19 Nov 1996 23:08:55 GMT, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>>   
>>  >  Indeed, the allies had used and initiated the use of gas during the first world war.
>>  >  
>>  >  Is that so?  Mr. Blackmore will surely be willing to post proof
>>  >>  positive about this.  I believe that he cannot do this.

[sig deleted for brevity]
>>  
>>>>>
>Afraid your sources are wrong, old chap.  If memory serves correctly, it
>was the French who first utilized poison gas.

And given that we all know how ill-served you (and your favourite
ghost writer) have always been by your memory, Mr/Ms
Belling/Blackmore, I take it that you are hereby acknowledging Mr.
Mazal's earlier presentation of " [a]bsolute and compelling evidence
that [you are] a liar" is irrefutable.

Thank you.

Oh, and btw ,since you are still here, when _do_ you intend to respond
to the questions I raised in my recent repost of "Belling/Blackmore:
Profiles in Cowardice?"

I did observe  that your little one-liners and ghost-written pastings
seem to have increased in frequency of late.  So perhaps you are busy.
But I would like to know when you intend to clear up these little
mysteries of [your] life.

hro
=====================
Hilary Ostrov
E-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
WWW: http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project  http://www.nizkor.org/



Home ·  Site Map ·  What's New? ·  Search Nizkor

© The Nizkor Project, 1991-2012

This site is intended for educational purposes to teach about the Holocaust and to combat hatred. Any statements or excerpts found on this site are for educational purposes only.

As part of these educational purposes, Nizkor may include on this website materials, such as excerpts from the writings of racists and antisemites. Far from approving these writings, Nizkor condemns them and provides them so that its readers can learn the nature and extent of hate and antisemitic discourse. Nizkor urges the readers of these pages to condemn racist and hate speech in all of its forms and manifestations.