The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

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From hostrov@uniserve.com Fri Oct 18 12:36:40 PDT 1996
Article: 75468 of alt.revisionism
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From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Another one to add to the Discovery Channel
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 18:14:17 GMT
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In <53r1ii$t8i@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net>, gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee)
wrote:

>In message <53nfam$dbq@juliana.sprynet.com> - rblackmore@juno.com writes:
>:>

>[deleted]

>:>Those who have told lies, exaggerated, and irresponsibly
>:>promoted false events in history.  (I feel that was meant
>:>to be a "loaded" question.)  People should rejoice if they
>:>find that the picture was not as grim as it was painted.

>Mr. "Blackmore", some of the people who worked the hardest to get the Russian
>figure for the Auschwitz dead reduced were Jews.  Why do you suppose they
>would do that?

>:> Tell us the history behind this number
>:>>  and what it really means. 
>:>>  
>:>>  >  If you can't believe the messengers, how
>:>>  >can you believe the message?
>:>>  >
>:>>  
>:>>  We do the historical research that you do not do.
>:>
>:>I have most likely read the historical sources you refer
>:>to.  they are probably in my collection.  

Gee, Gord, I wonder if Mr. "Blackmore" keeps this collection of
sources that he has "most likely read" in his attic?!

[deleted]

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Fri Oct 18 16:55:02 PDT 1996
Article: 75505 of alt.revisionism
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From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Dr. Hans W. Muench Testifies About Auschwitz
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 18:13:18 GMT
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In <32667dec.3325320@news.inetport.com>, mcurtis@inetport.com (Mike
Curtis) wrote: [to the Stele-troll]


[...]

>Don't become another idiot like Mr. Giwer.

*become*???!!!  He already is!  Placing a fact, a question or a
refutation before the eyes of a Stele, a Giwer, or a Blackmore/Belling
- or any of their ilk - is somewhat like watching a fish out of water!
All they can do squirm and flounder. 

[posted/e-mailed]
hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Sat Oct 19 10:43:38 PDT 1996
Article: 75629 of alt.revisionism
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From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hoess Memoirs
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 05:51:05 GMT
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In <546rhf$ilq@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net>, gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee)
wrote:

>In message <54457v$sm1@tricia.msn.fullfeed.com> -
>gtaylor@shell1.msn.fullfeed.com (Gregory Taylor)17 Oct 1996 02:21:51 GMT
>writes:
>:>
>:>Let's see - a recently vanished denier who starts out civil and then
>:>slips into snotty ad hominems as time goes on. It's so difficult to 
>:>place when the reminders aren't physical traits (like an arm which keeps
>:>going Dr. Strangelove straight, that teensy mustache, some telltale 
>:>typing problem, a hair lick which just *won't* stay in place, etc.).

>Sort of reminds you of a currently posting denier who started out civil and
>then slipped into snotty ad hominems, doesn't it?  :-)

Well, I've been away for a while and I see that the Prodigal Poster
has returned once more to grace us with yet another platitudinous
pontification ... If memory serves me correctly, he too started out
civil (with each of his grand entrances) and lapsed into not only ad
hominems but also ad feminems, leaving a trail of dangling threads
behind him.

Are we thinking of the same poster, Gord?!

hro

=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Sat Oct 19 10:43:38 PDT 1996
Article: 75630 of alt.revisionism
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From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Blackmore: inconsistent idiot
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 05:51:44 GMT
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In <547sfg$brf@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

[snip]

>This isn't quite the situation.  I think that some of what
>most authors right is plain old propaganda, it is fact
>often mixed with fiction, fantasy, and wishful thinking.

A surprisingly perceptive description of some of the *better* written
denier tracts, Mr. "Blackmore".  And indeed there are many authors
whose writings _have_ righted the wrongs of plain old denier
propaganda.

>My job, as I see it, is to sort through it all and separate
>the wheat from the chaff.

Hmmm ... well, in the absence of any evidence of your ability to do
this with any degree of success, Mr. "Blackmore", please don't give up
your day job.

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Sat Oct 19 10:43:39 PDT 1996
Article: 75631 of alt.revisionism
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From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: England to Enforce the Holocaust Lie
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 05:52:12 GMT
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In <3266E2F7.41C6@itsa.ucsf.edu>, Brian Harmon 
wrote:

>tom moran wrote:
>[..]
>> Your an idiot Chuck. 

> Your grammar and thinking skills amaze me to this
> day, Mr. Moran.  tell me, how do you manage to dress
> yourself without help?

Gee, Brian, perhaps he _doesn't_ manage!  I don't think you were here
when Mr. Moran proudly announced that he doesn't wear shoes (thereby
eliminating the need to tell his right foot from his left, one might
reasonably think)  I also recall that  Mr. Moran told us of his
mother's efforts to assist him in understanding the complexities of
his rigii.  So perhaps she helps him dress as well :>)

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Sat Oct 19 10:43:40 PDT 1996
Article: 75637 of alt.revisionism
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From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Anything "Zionist & Proud"/Holocaust
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 18:18:26 GMT
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In <3264decf.378652@199.0.216.204>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran aka
the denier in search of a persona) wrote:

>>
>>				UWM.edu/Studentorg/tagar

Still haven't figured out how to cite an URL, have you? Tsk.Tsk.Tsk.

>>   "Tagar at UW - Milwaukee presents the Israel Activist Center"
>>
>>	Across a black background a BLAZING lightning strike from a
>>computer screen on the left with a Star of David, through a menorah in
>>the center and on to a satellite photo of Earth on the right side.

>	Maybe someone with 'connections' could get a reply from this site
>as to what the BLAZING lightning strike from Star of David to menorah
>to the Earth means.
>>

Sorry, Li'l Tommy that's highly classified top secret ZOG subliminal
advertising code.  Only those who have the level 5 decoder rings know
what this means.  And we aren't talking.

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Sat Oct 19 10:43:41 PDT 1996
Article: 75639 of alt.revisionism
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From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Blackmore: Denier (was Re: Hoess Memoirs)
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 05:50:47 GMT
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In <547rvq$brf@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

>>   jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) writes:

[troll forgery and "Blackmore" response snipped. hro]


>>  You responded to a forged post from Matt Giwer.
>>  
>>  While we're on the topic, do you think Matt Giwer's recent spate of
>>  forgeries is conducive to open debate?
>>  
>>  --
>>   John Morris                               
>>   at University of Alberta     
>>  -- 
>>  The Nizkor Project     | http://www.nizkor.org/
>>  
>>>>>
>Can't you see we're playing with you?  Silly people.

Hmmm ... you consider these bandwidth-wasting forgeries "playing" do
you, Mr. "Blackmore"?  Oh, well, as someone once said,  small things
do amuse small minds.  Is your small mind _capable_ of understanding -
let alone answering - Mr. Morris' question, Mr. "Blackmore"?


=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Sat Oct 19 10:43:41 PDT 1996
Article: 75640 of alt.revisionism
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From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Bacon, Diogenes, Homer, Voltaire - enemies of Holocaust tyranny
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 05:53:07 GMT
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In <327b82a2.2272192@199.0.216.204>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran aka
the denier in search of a laughable persona) wrote:


Tommy demonstrates that he has mastered cut 'n paste 101:

>	
>	"Liberty of speech, inviteth and provoketh liberty to be used
>again, and so bringeth much to a man's knowledge."
>                                            Francis Bacon

>	"The most beautiful thing in the world is freedom of speech."
>                                            Diogenes

>	"To speaketh his thoughts is every freeman's right, in peace and
>war, in council and in fight."
>                                            Homer

>	"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death
>your right to say it."
>                                            Voltaire

>	Freedom of Speech is the enemy of the totalitarian Holocaust lie.
>                                            Moran 

WOW! Look at that folks:  Bacon, Diogenes, Homer, and Voltaire - all
spelled correctly (and even quoted correctly, I think!  Hey, John ...
did Moran bring home the Bacon, OK?!)  And the ultimate wisdom he
proffers is his very own "deep thought."  Talk about an oxymoran!!

Because I am  loathe to place my own "deep thought" in proximity to
those of such great thinkers, I do thank Li'l Tommy whose words
provide some distance between the ridiculous and the sublime.

	"Freedom of speech is the enemy of Tom Moran.  He shoots himself in
the foot every time he opens his mouth."
			Ostrov

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Sat Oct 19 10:43:42 PDT 1996
Article: 75656 of alt.revisionism
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From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Attn: Kurt Stele:  Here's that post you keep missing
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 08:06:29 GMT
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In <549gke$qtl@is05.micron.net>, kurtstel@micron.net (Kurt Stele)
wrote:

>Kimberley Ahlf  wrote:

[Mr. Stele's non-response to Ms. Ahlf's post deleted -hro]

 Poor Mr. Stele.  You must have been taking "lessons" from the
Giwer-troll.  And your *response* - which I have deleted in order to
spare you further embarrassment, for the time-being - was about on a
par with the Giwer-troll at his mediocre best.  IOTW, your grade on
this post was an indisputable F (for failure)

But I am going to give you an opportunity to redeem yourself by
reposting Ms. Ahlf's post in its entirety.  In your response, I would
strongly suggest that you refrain from your customary dishonest
deletions of text that you find inconvenient.  It would also be a very
good idea if you would specifically address the arguments and evidence
Ms. Ahlf _has_ presented.

Perhaps it would help if you were to actually _read_ the text to which
you are responding, before you attempt to do so.   From reading your
previous *contributions* to this newsgroup, I realize that this will
be very difficult for you. But, do try your best.  And who knows, you
might even be able to demonstrate that you _are_ capable of engaging
in courteous, civilized, honest debate.

Take all the time you need.  



From: Kimberley Ahlf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Attn: Kurt Stele:  Here's that post you keep missing
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 10:42:12 -0700
Organization: University of Washington
Lines: 275
Message-ID:

In-Reply-To: <547j94$e60@is05.micron.net>


On Fri, 18 Oct 1996, Kurt Stele wrote:

> Kimberley Ahlf  wrote:
> 
> >> So what?  The Soviets had obvious aims for nuclear weapons; and yet the
> >> U.S. allied
> >> themselves with the Soviets.  What's your point?  That no other country
> >> besides the U.S. (and Israel of course -- they have the same rulers
> >> anyway) should be allowed to have nuclear weapons?
> 
> >Ah, thank you.  You see, you were trying to make the point that the US
> >actually had nothing to fear from Hitler's Germany, and thus Lindbergh, in
> >hindsight, had been tricked into supporting the allied cause.  As you
> >know, we ended up having plenty to fear from the Soviets and their nuclear
> >arsenal, and yet we had far fewer clues as to their potential
> >agressiveness than we had with Nazi Germany's overt agressiveness and
> >imperial ambitions (Hitler had, after all, announced no limits to
> >Germany's required 'living space.')
> 
> WRONG again.  My point was that the U.S. at the TIME of -entering- WWII did not enter the
> war for the sake of any "German Nuclear Program."

Wrong again.  That is what you wish I had asserted, but I only
asserted that Germany's nuclear program constituted a threat which
contradicts the "LIE" you say was perpetrated in convinging Lindbergh
to fight against the Germans.  Just keep reading what you wish into my
statements, though, because as you continue to debate such irrelevant
points, the basic question of Lindbergh's authority on matters of
geopolitics goes unanswered. 

>   That is what you asserted and you've
> presented NOTHING to support it.

Wrong again.  That's what you wish I'd asserted.

>    Now, go to the library and present
> some EVIDENCE of your assertion that the war against Germany was fought
> in ANY way BECAUSE of a Nuclear danger.   

Not that it's relevant, but since you keep insisting thast it is:

	Washington, D.C. October 21, 1939
	A newly appointed Advisory Committee on Uranium met here to consider
	the possibility of building weapons of almost unlimited
	destructive power. The committee was created by President 
	Roosevelt after he received a letter from Albert Einstein saying
	that "vast amounts of power" could be released by setting up 
	nuclear chain reactions in a large mass of uranium.  There are
	indications that German scientists are already working on such a
	uranium bomb, the Einstein letter warned.

	-Chronicle of America, Chronicle Publications p 686

Now, the existence of this committee is by itself in 1939 is
sufficient argument to prove that the US was at least considering the
German nuclear threat prior to WWII.  I'm sorry that I don't have a
copy of the original Einstein letter, but the theme of its content is
well-known to warn of Germany's nuclear potential in 1939.


> 
> BTW you won't find anything to help your point but going to the library
> may teach you how

Yeah, why do I need to go to the library when all I have to do is open
an encyclopedia to find quotes and evidence which supports my points?

When are you going to start producing evidence to support your claims,
Mr. Stele?  I know my evidence doesn't please you, but it's still
evidence and it's still more than you have brought into this debate.
No quid pro quo for you?


> 
> >> Please post the evidence that the U.S. went to war with Germany because
> >> of the "German nuclear program".
> 
> >I don't need to post, nor does there exist, evidence that the US went to
> >war with Germany because of Germany's nuclear potential.  The nuclear
> >threat of Germany was raised because you inferred that in hindsight 
> >Lindbergh had been tricked into fighting against 'unthreatening' Nazi
> >Germany.  To which I respond, in hindsight an undefeated Nazi Germany
> >would have been a highly agressive nuclear power and the gravest threat.
> 
> Once again, you have FAILED to post proof that Germany would have "been
> a highly agressive nuclear power and the gravest threat."  

I have not "FAILED to post proof," I have just failed to post proof
that you can refute.  That is why you keep denying my evidence.  When
are *you* going to reciprocate with evidence of your own?

> 
> Once again, more cliches.  Once again -- no evidence.   

If your assertions fall easyfall easy prey to "cliched" evidence, is
that the fault of the evidence or your weak arguments?

> 
> >Actually, I have no expertise, but it requires none to clear this fog of
> >your making.
> 
> I realize you have NO EXPERTISE.  That is painfully and tediously obvious.

Yes, it is, and yet I have been able to counter you with facts to
which you can only respond with shallow mockery-  no facts of your
own.  My lack of expertise reflects on your lack of not only expertise
but also complete lack of rhetorical ability.

> 
> >My, you *do* want me to spend time in the library, don't you?  You see, I
> >am not an "expert", even a (sic) one, and consequently do not have an
> >extensive library at my immediate disposal from which to glean the
> >mountains of evidence describing Hitler's racial policies.
> 
> Read:  "I don't know what I'm talking about. 

Close.  I don't know what *you* are talking about.  Few people could.

> All I do is spout bullshit cliches for which I have no support. 

My documented bullshit is still better supported than your
undocumented bullshit.

> Then I make specious and idiotic attacks

If my attacks are "specious and idiotic", then what are your attacks
which label me a "moron" and  "boob."???

>  on others as not being
> "experts" but then I apologize for not being an expert myself."    
> 
> Again, no evidence.

Almost correct.  There is evidence provided by me, it's just not
evidence that *you* like.

> 
> >But, since I have at least a passing familiarity with Hitler's program (If
> >you need more I suggest you visit the Cybrary of the Holocaust or Nizkor)
> >I can at least quote Hitler's statement about what Germany must do
> >to rid themselves of the 'evil' Jews:
> 
> Again, no evidence is presented.   Just cliches.

I'm sorry that you feel the following quote from Adolf Hitler is just
a "cliche."  In fact, because it *is* a cliche, doesn't that make it
all the more ordinary and widely known?  Seems that fact would support
my statements...

> 
> >"... it is the inexorable Jew who struggles for his domination over
> >nations.  No nation can remove this hand from its throat except by the
> >sword."   -Mein Kampf, A. Hitler, Houghton Mifflin, p651
> 
> The removal of the hand from the throat is a defensive act.  

I won't dispute that in the perverted mind of the Nazi, the act of
killing millions of Jews can be justified as defense.

>  And there is no talk of enslaving or eradicating other peoples.  You have
> more evidence I would assume, right?

Just Germany's actual practice of enslaving and eradicating peoples
during WWII.  But you deny all of those historical facts, don't you?  

> 
> >That seems like a pretty clear call to arms against the Jewish race, and
> >from a pretty good source for divining Hitler's program: his own book.
> 
> WHAT???  You've proven NOTHING!

Wrong.  I've provided no evidence that you can refute with evidence of
your own, there is a distinction.

>  You make these sweeping allegations and then you post a
> defensive general quote 

"defensive general quote" from Hitler's own book, Mein Kampf.

> to prove Hitler wanted to "enslave" and "WIPE OUT" entire
> peoples??  Geez...  Why did I even bother to respond to this.
> 

Indeed, why do you, when you continue to reveal your own foolishness?

> >Actually, if you go back and reread what I have said you will notice that
> >I stated that in hindsight there was ample evidence of threat and
> >potential, but did not state that the US necessarily had any precognition
> >or access to Hitler's plans in advance.
> 
> Here's what you wrote:
> 
> =================================
> Myself:
> > He did so reluctantly, and according to the Lie told him that Hitler wanted to take over
> > the world.   Americans weren't in the slightest danger of losing their freedom to the
> > Germans.  The war, as usual, was fought for Jewish interest -- precisely the same reason
> > WWI had be fought.  
> 
> YOU:
> So the fact that Hitler had invaded nearly the entire land mass of Europe,
> forayed into Africa, and sunk US shipping in the Gulf of Mexico did not
> signify Hitler's determination to dominate the world, whether directly or
> through an axis alliance?  This, not to mention Hitler's nuclear and
> rocket programs did not constitute a threat to the US's well-being?
> 

I covered this in a previous post, but even without that the statement

stands up.


> ===========================================
> 
> Obviously, the topic was WHY the U.S. entered the war.  And you responded that Hitler's
> nuclear and rocket programs "constituted a threat to the U.S.'s well-being."  
> To support  your wild assertion you have so far produced:       NOTHING.
> 

IO maintained that it was irrelevant, but to please you I submitted
the Einstein letter which the US acted on by setting up a committee.
The evidence awaits your documentary refutation.

> And now you are trying to say you were really speaking in "retrospect."  Yet it is obvious
> the present reason for the U.S.'s involvement was under discussion.    But even for your
> "retrospect" position you have so far produced:              NOTHING.
> 

Yes, I was, but go ahead and translate it however you wish.  Even
under your interpretation my statement is supported by the existence
of the Einstein letter and the resultant Advisory Committee on
Uranium.  I've provided the documented evidence, when will you do the
same?

> In answer to your cliche that Hitler was "determined to enslave and destroy other peoples"
> you produced a defensive quote removing Jews from the throat of Aryans.  That is ALL.  You
> make wild assertions you cannot support.   
> 
> You are a cliche-ridden boob who cannot back up her assertions.  

Whether I can or not is a matter of opinion, but whether this boob has
tried is a matter of fact which cannot be claimed likewise by you.
Your own hysterical assertions remain undefended by even cliched
evidence.

> 
> Support  your assertions and I will respond to them.

I have, and yet to date you have not.

Why do you keep deleting my questions to *you*, Mr. Stele?

-ODB

> 
> Kurt Stele
> 
> "Our bond with Europe is a bond of race, not of political ideology.
> It is the European race we must preserve: political progress will
> follow.  Racial strength is vital -- politics a luxury.  If the White 
> race is ever seriously threatened, it may then be time for us to take 
> our part in its protection:  to fight side by side with English, French, 
> and Germans -- but not with one against the other for our mutual destruction.  
> Let us not dissipate our strength, or help Europe to dissipate hers in these 
> wars of politics and possession."  
> 
> Charles Lindbergh. October 13th, 1939.
> 
> 
> 



hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Sat Oct 19 10:43:43 PDT 1996
Article: 75660 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.mindlink.net!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Just Gotta Get Me Some of That High-Speed Karma
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 08:58:05 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
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Message-ID: <54a5il$407@atlas.uniserve.com>
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X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Coincidence? Karma? or Con-Artist?



From: CyberGuy 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: REVISIONIST COWARDS
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 00:03:37 -0700
Organization: Intelligence Network Online, Inc.
Lines: 52
Message-ID: <32672BC9.3578@IntNet.net>
Reply-To: cyberguy@IntNet.net
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First - not that it matters - I am not Jewish.  Just a baby boomer.

I read this pathetic crap by obvious psychotics who would deny
historical FACT.  

[balance deleted - hro]



And two minutes later .....



From: KarmaLord 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: REVISIONIST COWARDS
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 00:05:37 -0700
Organization: Intelligence Network Online, Inc.
Lines: 52
Message-ID: <32673BF9.5598@IntNet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: as-clw-9-208.intnet.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I)

>
> First - not that it matters - I am not Jewish.  Just a baby boomer.
>

As you point out, that doesn't really matter.

> I read this pathetic crap by obvious psychotics who would deny
> historical FACT.
>

Well, no, it isn't necessarily a FACT.  It is the presently accepted

[balance deleted - hro]



Such a *thoughtful* response in two minutes flat!  Strange though that
this *response* contains the text of the first poster but no reference
to the message ID of the post to which "KarmaLord" is *responding*

Will the real [im]poster please stand up?  

Oh, and btw, sorry I've never been to Florida so can someone tell me
if Clearwater is a long distance call from Tampa?  




Intelligence Network Online, Inc. (INTNET2-DOM)
   1224 Rogers Street
   Clearwater, FL 34616

   Domain Name: INTNET.NET

   Administrative Contact:
      Pilat, George  (GP12)  george@INTNET.NET
      (813) 449-0072
   Technical Contact, Zone Contact:
      Diveglia, Gene L  (GD19)  gene@INTNET.NET
      (813) 442-0114 (FAX) (813) 448-0949 (FAX) (813) 448-0949

   Record last updated on 24-Jun-94.
   Record created on 29-Nov-93.

   Domain servers in listed order:

   NS1.INTNET.NET		198.252.32.20
   NS2.INTNET.NET		198.252.32.110



hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Sun Oct 20 09:43:35 PDT 1996
Article: 75814 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Speaking of David Irving
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 05:30:28 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
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From: The Globe and Mail, Saturday, Oct. 19/96 Page D5

[All ellipses and typos mine.  hro]

_Nazism_
When history is written by bad men
By Jacob Heilbrunn
The New Republic

"David Irving, author of a sympathetic new biography of Joseph
Goebbels, is revered by some as a serious scholar.  To others he is a
vicious anti-Semite"



[...] A British historian who views Nazism with nostalgia, Mr. Irving
has begun to depict himself as a victim of an international conspiracy
aimed at suppressing him and his works.

Mr. Irving's difficulties have elicited sympathy from some unexpected
quarters.  Writing in the June issue of Vanity Fair, Christopher
Hitchens dismissed Mr. Irving's critics as "hysterical and
old-maidish" and hailed Mr. Irving as a "great historian of Fascism."
Even more surpisingly, Gordon Craig, the dean of German historians,
also weighed in on Mr. Irving's behalf.  In the Sept. 19 New York
Review of Books, Mr. Craig reminded his readers that historical truth
is not engraved in stone.  Like Mr. Hitchens, he depicted Mr. Irving
as a serious historian with a few eccentric views about the Holocaust.

I took Mr. Craig's admonition to heart.  When Mr. Irving appeared at
an advertised luncheon in his honour at the Polo India Club Restaurant
in Washington on Sept. 15, I went. [...]

[Snip description and excerpts from Irving's July 1996 Action Report]


[...] Perhaps the most notable feature of the Action Report was Mr.
Irving's own running diary in which he called [Wermacht veteran
Reinhold] Elstner a "hero."  My curiosity piqued, I phoned the number
listed for more information about Mr. Irving's luncheon and was
heartily welcomed by one Andrew L. Gray, a Washington rentier [sic]
who was hosting the event.

I arrived at 12 o'clock sharp to find Mr. Irving aranging his books
for sale across from a framed self-portrait by Hitler he had brought
for the occasion. [...]  In all, there were about 15 of us: a gym
instructor from Bethesda, an elderly German couple and several
nondescript men who might have been mid-level government bureaucrats.

As we milled around Mr. Irving, he unleashed a litany of complaints.
The object of his wrath that day was the Jewish Board of Deputies in
London.  "They're the ones who sent the report to Canada that ended up
in my being deported in handcuffs," Mr. Irving said, "by an
immigration official who looked like a real immigrant."

[...]

During a lull in the conversation, I asked Mr. Iriving about a comment
he'd made earlier:  that critics saw the message of his new books as,
in Thomas McCormack's words, "the Jews brought it on themselves."  Mr.
Irving paused.  The first boycott of Jewish-owned businesses was
preceded, he explained, "by a Jewish declaration of war on Germany.
The Nazis were simply retaliating."  Anyway, he added in a mocking
tone, Goebbels called the boycott for April 1, which was the Jewish
Sabbath.  He was simply trying to get them to obey their own faith.

[...]

[...] Mr. Irving said he couldn't help noticing that the letters from
publishers in New York are more and more often signed with names like
"Goldberg."  Why not go with a publisher other than the New York ones,
asked a white-haired man who looked like a colonel from the Raj.
"No," Mr. Irving replied, "I will not do that.  I can't go to a lesser
publisher.  That means giving in to the enemy."

The enemy.   Mr. Irving did not need to spell out to his acolytes who
that was.  His Goebbels biography makes it abundantly clear who the
enemies are and who the heroes.

[Snip book details]

In short, Mr. Irving's books cannot be divorced from the man and his
historical mission.  That mission is to normalize Hitler and Nazism so
as to remove the unique stain of the Final Solution from Germany.
[...] since the second World War, it has been taboo in the West to
espouse anti-Semitism publicly.  Mr. Irving's project is to smash this
taboo.

But good history does not have to be produced by bad men.  Challenges
to accepted historical verities have been produced by many scholars
over the years, scholars who are constantly wrangling over every
conceivable aspect of German history.  Mr. Irving has made no
contributions to these debates.

If revising British and American history has meant toppling heroes
[...]  from their plinths, revisionism has taken on a rather different
meaning when it comes to Germany.  The statues have already been
smashed.  The challenge facing the would-be revisionist is to sweep
the shards under the rug and attempt to start with a fresh mold.  But
as the symbol of human evil Auschwitz has resisted both denial and
relativization.

Mr. Craig to the contrary, there are certain absolute truths in
history, or at least truths that it is futile to dispute.  We know
that the Holocaust occurred.  This is not a topic for debate.  A
reputable publisher does not have a moral obligation to publish a book
by Mr. Irving; to give him the patina of respectability that he
craves, for a book, moreover, that contains no revelations about
Goebbels and much misinformation.

Mr. Hitchens wrote that in meeting Mr. Irving, "I learned a lot in the
process of doing so."  I learned nothing new about Nazism from David
Irving.  I did learn that his hatred of the Jews is bottomless.



hro

=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Sun Oct 20 12:06:45 PDT 1996
Article: 75935 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.bc.net!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hoess Memoirs
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 18:22:02 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 44
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <54dqvp$gsc@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <52vcqf$1ibm@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net> <52vt1m$gs4@juliana.sprynet.com> <531vmd$1ngu@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net> <543i2e$dv1@fullfeed.msn.fullfeed.com><52vcqf$1ibm@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net> <52vt1m$gs4@juliana.sprynet.com> <531vmd$1ngu@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net> <543i2e$dv1@fullfeed.msn.fullfeed.com> <54457v$sm1@tricia.msn.fullfeed.com> <546rhf$ilq@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net><52vcqf$1ibm@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net> <52vt1m$gs4@juliana.sprynet.com> <531vmd$1ngu@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net> <543i2e$dv1@fullfeed.msn.fullfeed.com><52vcqf$1ibm@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net> <52vt1m$gs4@juliana.sprynet.com> <531vmd$1ngu@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net> <543i2e$dv1@fullfeed.msn.fullfeed.com> <54457v$sm1@tricia.msn.fullfeed.com> <546rhf$ilq@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net> <549qk3$2dm@atlas.uniserve.com> <54dlps$21pe$3@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: van0309.tvs.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

In <54dlps$21pe$3@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net>, gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee)
wrote:

>In message <549qk3$2dm@atlas.uniserve.com> - hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary
>Ostrov)Sat, 19 Oct 1996 05:51:05 GMT writes:
>:>
>:>In <546rhf$ilq@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net>, gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee)
>:>wrote:
>:>
>:>>In message <54457v$sm1@tricia.msn.fullfeed.com> -
>:>>gtaylor@shell1.msn.fullfeed.com (Gregory Taylor)17 Oct 1996 02:21:51 GMT
>:>>writes:
>:>>:>
>:>>:>Let's see - a recently vanished denier who starts out civil and then
>:>>:>slips into snotty ad hominems as time goes on. It's so difficult to 
>:>>:>place when the reminders aren't physical traits (like an arm which keeps
>:>>:>going Dr. Strangelove straight, that teensy mustache, some telltale 
>:>>:>typing problem, a hair lick which just *won't* stay in place, etc.).
>:>
>:>>Sort of reminds you of a currently posting denier who started out civil and
>:>>then slipped into snotty ad hominems, doesn't it?  :-)
>:>
>:>Well, I've been away for a while and I see that the Prodigal Poster
>:>has returned once more to grace us with yet another platitudinous
>:>pontification ... If memory serves me correctly, he too started out
>:>civil (with each of his grand entrances) and lapsed into not only ad
>:>hominems but also ad feminems, leaving a trail of dangling threads
>:>behind him.
>:>
>:>Are we thinking of the same poster, Gord?!

>Yes, we are.

Hmmm ... well, I guess great minds do think alike don't they>!  Mind
you, I suppose we shouldn't really take any credit for that ... it's
almost too easy when denier fools so seldom differ :>)

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Sun Oct 20 12:50:27 PDT 1996
Article: 75937 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A typical false eyewitness: Filip Muller, the plagiarist
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 18:41:57 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 34
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <54ds54$hjf@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <53ovn6$p03@Vir.com> <32637125.9912733@news.srv.ualberta.ca> <845312633snz@abaron.demon.co.uk>  <326f2a9e.1838889@199.0.216.204>
NNTP-Posting-Host: van0223.tvs.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

In <326f2a9e.1838889@199.0.216.204>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
wrote:

>>A_Baron@abaron.demon.co.uk (Alexander Baron) writes:
>>
>>>> Evidently the jury was a lot less impressed by Christie's effort to
>>>> entrap Hilberg into making an untenable statement than Mr. Beaulieu.
>>>> Ernst Zuendel was, after all, convicted by *two* juries of spreading
>>>> false news.
>>
>>>Tell the whole truth, John, he appealed all the way to the Supreme Court
>>>and the verdict was overturned by a 4-3 ruling.
>>
>>Then you tell the whole truth as well. Did the Supreme Court's decision
>>have anything to do with the credibility of Hilberg or any other witness,
>>or wasn't it a judgement on the constitutionality of the law under which
>>Zuendel was charged?

>	The witnesses, including Hilberg, spoke. In the end, the cause
>lost. 

To some extent, Li'l Tommy you are almost right - for a changeZundel's
"cause" did lose.  He did gain the publicity he was seeking but all it
has garnered him is the attention and blind following of pathetic
little societal misfits such as ... hmmm ... well, you are a very good
example judging by your posts here.

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Sun Oct 20 12:50:28 PDT 1996
Article: 75946 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Speaking of David Irving
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 19:21:43 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 45
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <54dufl$hqh@atlas.uniserve.com>
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X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

In <54cf50$d31@is05.micron.net>, kurtstel@micron.net (Kurt Stele)
wrote:

>hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov) wrote:

>>From: The Globe and Mail, Saturday, Oct. 19/96 Page D5

>>[All ellipses and typos mine.  hro]

>>_Nazism_
>>When history is written by bad men
>>By Jacob Heilbrunn
>>The New Republic

>>"David Irving, author of a sympathetic new biography of Joseph
>>Goebbels, is revered by some as a serious scholar.  To others he is a
>>vicious anti-Semite"

[excerpts - which for a change Mr. Stele had left intact - deleted for
brevity.  hro]

>Hmmm.  So much dedicated to trying to smear David Irving as a Jew hater.

Wrong, Mr. Stele!  And once you have completed your remedial reading
course, you may be able to see that there is no need whatsoever for
anyone to "smear David Irving as a Jew hater" - or as anything else
for that matter.  

You see, as the article clearly indicates, David Irving damns himself
with his own words.

Come to think of it, do you fancy yourself as a David Irving, Mr.
Stele?  It is very obvious from your posts here that - despite your
many demonstrated failings -  "damning yourself with your own words"
is an activity at which you appear to excel.

[snip]

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Tue Oct 22 07:40:58 PDT 1996
Article: 76282 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Speaking of David Irving
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 03:44:43 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 65
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <54hgad$2qv@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <54cdp5$bvu@atlas.uniserve.com>  <54f68v$900@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: van0203.tvs.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

In <54f68v$900@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>, kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken
McVay OBC) wrote:

>In article , 
>Kneeland  wrote:

>>bullshit. Utter bullshit. I too saw Mr. Irving give a speech concerning 
>>the Goebbels book and other relevent material. 

>Such language for a nice Iranian lady! My goodness gracious.

>[snippeth]

>>	DAVID IRVING IS NOT AN ANTI-SEMITE.

>rotfl

>>	He said that the horror of the camps was that INNOCENT people 
>>suffered both jew and gentile. There were massive pogroms and atrocites 
>>of the sort taken out on Jews but no Holocaust as the Zionists propagandized.

>[as in "David Irving says four million died...but there was
>no Holocaust..."]

>[Iranian feperson neglects commenting on documented
>antisemitic quotes from the Irving Himself...]

>"Even though she hasn't won the top prize, Hilary, tell
>Kneeland what she's won....."

Of course, Ken ... I'd be delighted.  Ms. Kneeland, you have won ONE
YEAR's FREE TUITION at the world renowned Institute for Returning to
Reality (IRR).  At IRR all students engage in self-directed learning
while choosing from an exciting and empowering array of courses.

Here is what one recent graduate had to say:  

	"I heartily recommend IRR to all who are plagued with the curses of
wilful stupidity, ignorance and that vile self-hatred which manifests
itself in hatred of others.  IRR offers no "bird" courses and the
homework is tough. But it sure is worth it.

	Remedial Reading 101 was the first step I took on the path to
enlightenment.  It opened up a whole new world for me!  I learned to
think, to be rational, and to communicate with others in a courteous,
meaningful - and above all, truthful - way.  

	Once I acquired _these_ interactive skills, I was actually able to
look at myself in the mirror and recognize my own failings - instead
of perpetually projecting them onto others and blaming those innocent
others for my own inadequacies.  I have cast aside my crutches of
deceit and dishonesty and I now have a life worth living."

Congratulations, Ms. Kneeland!  

(Pssst .... Ken, this prize sounds *perfect* for her, don't you
think?!)

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Tue Oct 22 07:40:59 PDT 1996
Article: 76296 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Speaking of David Irving
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 05:56:03 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
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Distribution: world
Message-ID: <54ho0j$3ti@atlas.uniserve.com>
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In , Salman
Rushdie (aka another anonymous Irving acolyte) 
wrote:

[snip]

>A

>ps- and as you know, Irving doesn't believe in 4 million being killed.... 


Is that so?!  One wonders how we are to know when Irving _is_ telling
us something he actually _believes_.


                   MEDIA MONITORS
                BROADCAST TRANSCRIPT

STATION: 2GB    DATE: 27/07/95          TIME: 0930
PROGRAM: RON CASEY
ITEM: (S36962003) INTV: DAVID IRVING, BRITISH HISTORIAN



CASEY:
What is your estimate of the number of Jews who died at the
hands of Hitler's regime in the war years? What number - and I
don't like using this word - what number would you concede
were killed in concentration camps?

IRVING:
I think, like any scientist, I'd have to give you a range of
figures and I'd have to say a minimum of one million, which is
a monstrous crime, and a maximum of about four million,
depending on what you mean by killed. If putting people into a
concentration camps where they die of barbarity and typhus and
epidemics is killing then I would say the four million figure
because, undoubtedly, huge numbers did die in the camps in the
conditions that were very evident at the end of the war.



The full transcript of this Interview is available at:

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/i/irving-david/australia/2gb-transcript-0795..html

[balance deleted]

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Tue Oct 22 19:05:01 PDT 1996
Article: 76406 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.activism,alt.conspiracy,alt.religion.christian,alt.christnet,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jewish Ritual Murder
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 20:13:34 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 31
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <54ja85$8ur@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <54e90o$27t@thoth.nilenet.com> <54fs9r$6j1@panix3.panix.com> <326C6724.2F16@columbia.edu> <54ik73$ae@panix3.panix.com>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:47299 alt.activism:86251 alt.conspiracy:102276 alt.religion.christian:139733 alt.christnet:116940 alt.revisionism:76406

In <54ik73$ae@panix3.panix.com>, stern@panix.com (Stern, just Stern)
wrote:

[snip]

>>If there is a jewsih plan to conquer the world...

>>HOW COME I'M NOT GETTING A PIECE OF THE ACTION?!?!?!?!

>I agree. I pay my dues; I show up at the secret conspiracy meetings. What
>do I get? A laminated membership card and a mug from the Elders of Zion
>meeting! What a rip-off.

Next year when you pay your dues, just check the deluxe membership box
and you'll get a decoder ring with your new membership card.  Oh, and
btw, as a cost saving measure, the card committee has decided that
next year's cards won't be laminated - and for extra security, we'll
be using invisible ink (so you'll have to pay the extra $10.00 for the
deluxe membership.)

[follow ups set to alt.revisionism]




=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Tue Oct 22 23:07:50 PDT 1996
Article: 76442 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.fan.ernst-zundel
Subject: Re: 961022: Yet one more time. . .
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 23:37:16 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 55
Distribution: world
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:76442 alt.fan.ernst-zundel:3031

In , zundel-repost@alpha.c2.org
(E. Zundel Repost) wrote:

[...]

>------------ BEGIN ZUNDELGRAM MESSAGE ------------

>October 22, 1996

>Good Morning from the Zundelsite:

[...]

>Once more, and for the record:  Ernst Zundel will debate.  He will do so by

[recycled Z-centricities and effusive Ingrid-patter snipped.  hro]

Isn't it amazing the lengths some people will go in order to generate
media attention and publicity?!  If you think there may be something
that doesn't quite ring true about Ingrid's recounting of events,
please do check out Nizkor's Open Letter to Zundelsite Visitors:

http://www.nizkor.almanac.bc.ca/features/z-open-letter.html

Btw, I am sure I'm not the only one who finds it curious that one who
professes so ardently to want a "debate" delberately _chooses_
communication avenues (the Z-grams being one!) that are only one-way.


Oh, well, if they find Giwer, Moran, Stele, Blackmore and their ilk to
be rude and offensive, I can appreciate why they don't want to come to
alt.revisionism.  But isn't it strange that it has never occurred to
either Ingrid or Ernst that they could host a listserv open mailing
list for the sole purpose of facilitating this "debate" they _so_ much
want.

Of course they would have to allow the free-flow of any refutation of
their "arguments" for all to see.  [Wouldn't _that _ be a pleasant
change, Jamie?!]  

But if the truth really hurt them that much, they could always invoke
list-moderator/owner prerogative and censor the truthful postings at
their leisure - or even stop any postings from such "undesirable"
characters.

Mind you, explaining such actions in a positive light might present
quite a challenge - even for Ingrid and her fact-free-filter-factory.

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Wed Oct 23 00:00:37 PDT 1996
Article: 76457 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 01:13:25 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 70
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <54jrrb$mm@atlas.uniserve.com>
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In <54jga2$md4@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ceacaa@aol.com (Ceacaa) wrote:

Is this thread _still_ unravelling?!

[snip Stellic stuff]

>The Exterminationists are rather like the defenders of
>the Ptolmeic system in 1500 A.D.  Most of them firmly
>believe in their own position and they cannot conceive of
>anyone honestly holding a contrary view.

Not quite, Mr. Anonymous AOLer!  Actually, more than "not quite" ...
But to the contrary!  Speaking for myself -  as one of those whom you
choose to disparage by labelling "Exterminationist"  - what I cannot
conceive of, is how you can reasonably expect anyone to give credence
to the possiblility that your "views" are _honestly_ held.  

You see, one cannot discount the possibility that you have actually
reviewed at least some of the mountain of evidence that _is_
available.  Frankly, unless you are simply a parrot, I fail to see how
you could not have.  Otherwise, how could you come up with these
little bones that you so much like to pick on?!  None of which have
anything to do with the historicity of the Holocaust.

>This is also my explaination of how Exterminationists
>disregard the clear evidence that I find so convincing.

I rather think the expression "pot.kettle.black" is called for here!
But do tell us why _your_ claim to find something "convincing" should
be sufficient  (particularly in light of your repeated failure to
provide anything other than your own opinions, or those of soundly
refuted distortionists) to convince us!

>There is a saying in French is, "Une poule qui a trouve' un 
>couteau", a chicken that found a knife.

>     In reading Pressac's Technique... I am impressed time 
>and time again how Mr. Pressac ignores (what seems to me)

Hmmm... very interesting qualifier!  "What seems to [you]"  Do tell,
Mr. Anonymous AOLer, why should we give more credence to you - one who
has demonstrated time and time again, that he refuses to substantiate
his "arguments" in any meaningful, rational way  -  than to Pressac or
to any number of other _credible_ sources that have been presented in
this seemingly interminable thread.

>powerful evidence that there could NOT have been gas 
>chambers at Leichenkeller 1 of the Cremas; solid physical
>evidence such as the lack of vent holes or the impossiblity
>that "porous pillars" were attached to the roof or floor.
>Pressac seems more than content with what he calls
>"criminal traces", usually little "slips" in the masses 
>of documents that the Germans left.     Ask Pressac
>to look at the actual ruins,  Une poule qui a trouve' un 
>couteau!

Why _do_ you keep recycling these little figments of your imagination,
without presenting any substantive and _credible_ documentation, Mr.
Anonymous AOLer?! 

Perhaps you need to do this in order to convince _yourself_ that your
"views" are "honestly" held.


=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Wed Oct 23 09:47:18 PDT 1996
Article: 76553 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!voskovec.radio.cz!news.cesnet.cz!01-newsfeed.univie.ac.at!Austria.EU.net!EU.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jewish Ritual Murder
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 05:16:51 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 28
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <54ka3m$27v@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <54e90o$27t@thoth.nilenet.com> <54fs9r$6j1@panix3.panix.com> <326C6724.2F16@columbia.edu> <54ik73$ae@panix3.panix.com> <54ja85$8ur@atlas.uniserve.com>  <326e71f4.23153448@news.srv.ualberta.ca>
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In <326e71f4.23153448@news.srv.ualberta.ca>,
jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:

[snip trail of conspiratorial evidence]

>But I do have one question for Ms. Ostrov: is this membership good for
>both the International Jewish Conspiracy and the Zionist Occupation
>Government? Or just IJC?

Actually, Mr. Morris, we have a special on for this month* only!  You
can get two for the price of one (on the deluxe membership).  So,
either you and Mr. Tirebiter can share the (still available)
laminated card _and_ decoder ring (and pick the organization of your
joint choice) OR you can keep card and ring all to yourself and
receive dual membership i.e. in both IJC and ZOG.

*No pressure, btw!  There's still 20 days left in this month of the
Junar calendar, so you have some time to make your decision!

(Gee, Chief ... I just love it when it's my month to do recruitment!)


=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Wed Oct 23 11:01:45 PDT 1996
Article: 76573 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Speaking of David Irving
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 17:00:10 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 47
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <54lja5$63d@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <54cdp5$bvu@atlas.uniserve.com> <54cf50$d31@is05.micron.net> <54dufl$hqh@atlas.uniserve.com> <54kmia$j5o@is05.micron.net>
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X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Sheesh!  As someone once said, you can lead a horse to water, but you
can't make him drink!


In <54kmia$j5o@is05.micron.net>, kurtstel@micron.net (Kurt Stele)
wrote:

>hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov) wrote:

>>You see, as the article clearly indicates, David Irving damns himself
>>with his own words.

>Where does Irving "damn himself with his own words!!!" you paranoid Jew?

Try reading the article, Mr. Stele.  See if you can extend your
attention span beyond your customary 3 seconds.    Then read it again.
Keep re-reading the article until your attention span reaches the
level of a 10 year old.  This exercise will assist you in developing
some comprehension skills.

>Where does Irving makes these so-called "anti-semitic" statements in your article?

Mr. Stele, it is not _my_ article.  The author is Jacob Heilbrunn as
will become obvious to you after you have successfully completed the
above exercises.  Additionally, once you have achieved this elementary
literacy skill, with some effort on your part you will find the
statements in question.

Oh, btw, in the post to which you refer, I also wrote:



[...] It is very obvious from your posts here that - despite your
many demonstrated failings -  "damning yourself with your own words"
is an activity at which you appear to excel.



Thanks for proving my point, Mr. Stele.

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Fri Oct 25 09:00:52 PDT 1996
Article: 76767 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Another Holocaust Peculiarity
Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 19:32:21 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 52
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <54ogjo$dsi@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <541mo8$1bim@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net> <5458di$pra@juliana.sprynet.com> <32706be1.248157598@news.zilker.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: van0127.tvs.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

In <32706be1.248157598@news.zilker.net>, mike@aimetering.com (Mike
Curtis) wrote:

>rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

>>>   gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) writes:
>>>  In message <53vpqs$bau@juliana.sprynet.com> - rblackmore@juno.com15 Oct 1996
>>>
>>
[tsnip]

>>  So, your nit-picking is really
>>serving no beneficial purpose.  they LIED and the LIED BIG.

>Mr. Blackmore is stomping his little feet again.

>>Such methods will never convince me or other skeptics of the truth of the 
>>Holocaust especially when people like you continue to defend
>>it, even after its manifest forgeries are exposed.
>>

>I think it is a case of anyone, and not just Mr. McFee, who would take
>umbridge with your distortions and try to point folks to the actual
>reality of the history of the horrible event.

And speaking of "methods" (as Mr. "Blackmore" was), I see he has now
resorted to donning the cloak of "skepticism" in order to avoid taking
responsibility for his fabrications and other distortionist antics
(not to mention, God forbid, apologizing for and retracting their
erroneous assertions!)

Was there not another "masked man" who liked to don this particular
cloak?  I seem to recall that when all else failed (as it inevitably
did!), he would simply jump on his high horse and ride away asserting
his "right to speculate."

Slow learners aren't they, Mike?!  Do you suppose that they actually
believe they can fool anyone (with a modicum of critical thinking
ability, that is!) that their cobblings are to be trusted?!  

Oh, well ... perhaps they figure that if Irving was able to get away
with it (to a limited extent!), they can too!

Posted/e-mailed

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Fri Oct 25 09:00:53 PDT 1996
Article: 76768 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 19:32:28 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 38
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <54ogju$dsi@atlas.uniserve.com>
References:  <54jqv4$rj0@newsbf02.news.aol.com>  <54n0l0$s86@is05.micron.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: van0127.tvs.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

In <54n0l0$s86@is05.micron.net>, kurtstel@micron.net (Kurt Stele)
wrote:

>jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

>>ceacaa@aol.com (Ceacaa) wrote:

>>> The fact that gaschambers are easy to build 
>>> and the fact that the Germans shipped people
>>> clear across Europe is inconsistant.

>>This is kindergarten-level stuff, and Ceacaa only looks foolish by
>>posting it.

>>Auschwitz was a work camp and a death camp simultaneously;  arrivals
>>were gassed within hours if they were unfit for work, but they would be
>>used as slaves for weeks or months.  When their usefulness expired, due
>>to malnutrition or disease, they were killed in the gas chambers.

>This is the stupidest thing I've ever heard.  [Stellic-drivel snipped. hro]

>>"Ceacaa" knows this, but he pretends he doesn't, because he's trying to
>>persuade lurkers who might not know any better.

>I doubt it very seriously.  I think he's as puzzled as anyone.

_If_ "Ceacaa" is "puzzled", Mr. Stele, it can only be the result of
observing that he is able to convince no one - except, of course,
hate-filled, fact-bereft societal misfits such as you have proven
yourself to be.

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Fri Oct 25 09:00:54 PDT 1996
Article: 76777 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.bc.net!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Fill Me In: What happened to the Giwer-Swine?
Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 20:48:14 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 64
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <54ol20$hvr@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <54fvdl$jb6@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca> <326DABCF.4464A533@vertigo.combase.com>    <326F2F06.7BF020D5@vertigo.combase.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: van0114.tvs.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

In <326F2F06.7BF020D5@vertigo.combase.com>, Hardwire
 wrote:

>Charles R.L. Power wrote:
>> 
>> Kimberley Ahlf  writes:
>> 
>> >Matt Giwer is no martyr.  Matt Giwer was not censored, he was censured.
>> 
>> It should be added that Giwer actually bragged about the number of
>> BBSs back in the pre-Net days from which he'd been ejected even by
>> the most tolerant of sysops. It was only a matter of time before
>> he'd manage the same trick on the Net. Of course, he is free to find
>> another ISP among the teeming zillions out there and start over.


>Actually it matters not where he goes.  It's not the content of the
>posts which cause the grief.  It's the sheer fact that there are a group
>of people devoted to getting him kicked from every ISP he goes to.  

And your evidence for this "sheer fact" is, Mr. "Hardwire"?  What, you
don't have any? Other than the lying troll's claims, of course!   

Since you are somewhat of a Johnnie-come-lately (albeit considerably
more civil - at this point - than he whose demonstrated net-abuses you
choose to defend - for some unfathomable reason), you will of course
forgive those of us who find that you appear to be speaking from
wilfully blind ignorance of the facts.

>And
>of course no VALID proof has been offered up, and no ISP in question has
>even ONCE done a search of their logs (if they even carry any) to prove
>the situation existed or not.

Have you actually communicated with all the ISP's in question?  Have
they confirmed your conclusions? Perhaps you would be good enough to
share with us _your_ evidence to support these contentions, Mr.
"Hardwire."  In so doing, please include both the full headers and
text of your queries as well as the full headers and text of the
responses you received. 

Or are you simply engaging in rhetorical speculation?  If so, what
_is_ your agenda - and what does your agenda have to do with the
historicity of the Holocaust which is, in fact,  the subject of _this_
newsgroup.  But I do appreciate the fact that this may not have been
obvious from _anything_ you might have read that emanated from the
troll's keyboard!

For any newcomers who may be puzzled by this particular thread, please
do take a look at:

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/

No need to take my word for anything - or that of Mr. "Hardwire" -
when there is _more_ than abundant documentation from which you may
draw your own conclusions.

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Fri Oct 25 09:00:55 PDT 1996
Article: 76794 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Speaking of David Irving
Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 22:59:17 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 43
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <54osnl$mvb@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <54cdp5$bvu@atlas.uniserve.com> <54cf50$d31@is05.micron.net> <54dufl$hqh@atlas.uniserve.com> <54kmia$j5o@is05.micron.net> <54lja5$63d@atlas.uniserve.com> <54n4pc$3of@is05.micron.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: van0301.tvs.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

In <54n4pc$3of@is05.micron.net>, kurtstel@micron.net (Kurt Stele)
wrote:

>hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov) wrote:

>>In <54kmia$j5o@is05.micron.net>, kurtstel@micron.net (Kurt Stele)
>>wrote:
>>>Where does Irving "damn himself with his own words!!!" you paranoid Jew?

>>Try reading the article, Mr. Stele.  See if you can extend your
>>attention span beyond your customary 3 seconds.    Then read it again.
>>Keep re-reading the article until your attention span reaches the
>>level of a 10 year old.  This exercise will assist you in developing
>>some comprehension skills.

>You are full of shit as usual.   There is no "evidence" in the article David Irving is an
>anti-semite.  

Hmmm ... well, I see you have decided not to follow my suggestions Mr.
Stele.  But rather you have chosen to exercise your freedom to
continue making an absolute fool of yourself.   Oh, well, c'est la
vie! 

>But of course, you would find anti-semitism in ANY goy who dares question
>the Lie!   Nice try, paranoid Jew.   

Ever hear the nursery rhyme about sticks and stones, Mr. Stele?  I
wouldn't dream of suggesting that you find another tack, though.  You
see, apart from the fact that you have not demonstrated that you have
the capacity to do so, the emanations from your keyboard say _nothing_
about me - or my beliefs, for that matter!  They do, however, speak
volumes about you and yours.

So, by all means, please do continue - at least until your feet begin
to hurt from all the holes you keep shooting in them!

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Fri Oct 25 09:00:55 PDT 1996
Article: 76807 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mike Curtis's "Gas Chambers"
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1996 01:46:44 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 83
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <54p6hi$odr@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <54ok2t$diq@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: van0223.tvs.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

My compliments to your "ghost writer,"  Mr. "Blackmore."   In this
particular post of yours he has managed to demonstrate that he is
capable of mocking his opponent, by attempting to mimic his style.  

And he has incorporated just about every trick in the
denier/distortionist handbook. Even those of the witless troll - whom
he seems to hold in such high esteem.  How very "clever" of him.
There must be at least two people who are absolutely in awe of this
demonstration of his "impressive intellect and knowledge."

Of course, the post fails to address Mr. Curtis' questions, evidence
and/or arguments in any meaningful way.  But why should we quibble,
eh?! 

In <54ok2t$diq@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

>This is my response to Mike Cutris, re:, the following:

For the record, here are the headers and first few lines of the post
to which Mr. "Blackmore" claimed to be responding:



From: mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Mr. Blackmore is stomping his tiny feet
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 13:22:06 GMT
Organization: Zilker Internet Park, Inc.
Lines: 330
Message-ID: <327018fc.161387619@news.zilker.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: mike.aimetering.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99f/32.299

I found this on DejaNews rather than my server so I thought it best to
respond.

>Subject:      Re: Rosa Lopez vs Ada Bimko-Bimbo and Dumbo

Cute. Mr. Blackmore now resorts to deriding the witnesses by
calling them names. Does this show that Mr. Blackmore is a
misogynist? Or is there a greater underlying hatred?



>  Re: Rosa Lopez vs Ada Bimko-Bimbo and Dumbo

>  
> Cute. Mr. Blackmore now resorts to deriding the witnesses by  calling them names. Does this show that Mr. 
>Blackmore is a
> misogynist? Or is there a greater underlying hatred?

>Did that get your attention?  Good, it was meant to.  Am I a misogynist?

Perhaps you would be wiser to refrain from such "attention seeking"
behaviours and direct your efforts towards learning how to engage in
_honest_ debate, Mr. ... uh .... "Blackmore."

Sorry to disappoint you, Mr. Belling/Blackmore or whoever you are.
Regardless of what your "coach" may be telling you, these little games
you have now resorted to playing are really quite juvenile and
tiresome - and boringly repetitive, to boot!

Can you not do better than this?!  Why not pick another nym and even
if you have no interest in discussing the historical facts of the
Holocaust (which from your posts would seem to be the case), ask your
ghost writer to give you some new material so that you can entertain
us with pastings (oops, sorry, postings) that have a little more
originality.

[balance snipped. hro]

Posted/e-mailed to Mr. "Blackmore" and Mr. Curtis.

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Fri Oct 25 09:00:56 PDT 1996
Article: 76833 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: And Rome fell...
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1996 04:38:18 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 22
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <54pgj6$sed@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <54ns05$su2$2@news3.total.net> <327004C0.44C0@nbnet.nb.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: van0312.tvs.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

In <327004C0.44C0@nbnet.nb.ca>, Keith Morrison 
wrote:







WOW! Morrisonstein,  that new ZOG-zapper for removing the Toth
person's posts from the net works like a charm doesn't it?!  Looks
like you missed a spot, though.  Operator error, I guess.  So in the
spirit of East/West detente and collusion, I cleaned it up for you.  

(So much for those doom and gloomers who predict that the country will
fall apart if Quebec ever succeeds in seceding, eh?!  We'll just turn
up the old ZOG-zapper and nobody will ever know they were here - let
alone that they've gone.  Virtually fool-proof isn't it?!)


[sig file omitted for Li'l Tommy's spirit 'n paste convenience]



From hostrov@uniserve.com Sat Oct 26 09:46:53 PDT 1996
Article: 77135 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Belling/Blackmore:  Profiles in Cowardice?
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 1996 10:14:28 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 175
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <54sol5$3us@atlas.uniserve.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: van0203.tvs.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Sometimes "surfing" Deja News can be as enlightening as surfing the
Web.  Mr. "Blackmore" recently enjoined readers to search for his
"answers" to Mr. Gandhi's questions.  Mr. "Blackmore" claimed to have
posted such answers "over and over again."  Perhaps other readers were
more successful than I in finding these alleged "answers" but I didn't
find any.  During the course of my search, however, I _did_ find the
following profile:

http://xp5.dejanews.com/profile.xp?author=rblackmore@juno.com

AUTHOR PROFILE: rblackmore@juno.com

------------------------------------------------------------------------

•921 articles posted between 1996/07/28 and 1996/10/25. •85 %
followups. •Number of articles posted to individual newsgroups
(slightly skewed by cross-postings): 
•917 alt.revisionism •2 acadia.chat •1 alt.best.of.internet •1
alt.rock-n-roll.oldies 

Well, alt.best.of.internet and alt.rock-n-roll.oldies seemed
self-explanatory, but I had no idea what acadia.chat might be so I
decided to follow the convenient link from the profile.  There I
found:

*************************
Article 2 of 2


Subject:      look and you shall see...
From:         rblackmore@juno.com
Date:         1996/07/29
Message-Id:   <4thi81$rlr@juliana.sprynet.com>
Organization: Sprynet News Service
Newsgroups:   acadia.chat

hello ? antone out there 12-14 e-mail me . i am thirteen and ... well
if you e-mail me at jbelling@sprynet.com 

you can find out more about me i am a female.
 
*************************

This was an interesting discovery!  In reading the contributions of
Mr. "Blackmore" to alt.revisionism, I have often wondered if perhaps
"he" was a young teenager who had - unbeknownst to his parents - been
using the family computer.  And here it turns out that "he" is not
only a teenager, but also a "she" who invites responses to yet another
persona, one "jbelling."

I also found the date of this particular post quite interesting.   A
day later (July 30), I had received two e-mails from
  Here are the headers:

From: rblackmore@juno.com
Received: (from rblackmore@juno.com) by x6.boston.juno.com (queuemail)
	id QAA11270; Tue, 30 Jul 1996 16:16:45 EDT
To: hostrov@uniserve.com
Subject: Re: Hilary is full of it

From: rblackmore@juno.com
Received: (from rblackmore@juno.com) by x6.boston.juno.com (queuemail)
	id QAA12788; Tue, 30 Jul 1996 16:24:04 EDT
To: hostrov@uniserve.com
Subject: Re: Hilary is full of it


Oh, in case Mr/Ms Blackmore/Belling is wondering why I failed to
respond to either of these missives, I ignored both because neither
message answered the question I had posed to the writer (whoever s/he
might have been):

*******************
Subject:      Re: Hilary is full of it
From:         hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Date:         1996/07/30
Message-Id:   <4tlq6n$1la@atlas.uniserve.com>
Distribution: world
References:   <4tkqgf$d0h@juliana.sprynet.com>
Organization: myssiwyg*
Newsgroups:   alt.revisionism


In <4tkqgf$d0h@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

>Not all revisionists are racists, much as you would like the web-browsers to think so, Hilary.

Mr/Ms. Blackmore:

Perhaps, since you choose not to observe customary USENET courtesies
and conventions, you would care to elaborate on this comment.  You
could start by giving some indication of what I might have said - and
where - that has led you to this particular erroneous conclusion.

Posted/e-mailed

hro
[sig deleted. hro]

*************************

Nor, I might add, did his/her "public" response, 4 days later:

*****************
Subject:      Re: Hilary is full of it
From:         rblackmore@juno.com
Date:         1996/08/03
Message-Id:   <4tv1ol$sc3@juliana.sprynet.com>
Organization: Sprynet News Service
Newsgroups:   alt.revisionism



Oh!  I am sorry!  So you don't believe revisionists are racists?

********************

Gee, does anyone see anything familiar in this particular posting
pattern?!

For the record,  it seems that Mr/Ms "Blackmore" decided to retire
his/her jbelling alter ego in September:

http://xp5.dejanews.com/profile.xp?author=jbelling@sprynet.com

AUTHOR PROFILE: jbelling@sprynet.com

------------------------------------------------------------------------

•54 articles posted between 1996/06/17 and 1996/09/05. •46 %
followups. •Number of articles posted to individual newsgroups
(slightly skewed by cross-postings): 
•45 alt.revisionism •2 alt.feminazis •2 alt.politics.white-power •1
alt.homosexual •1 alt.recovery.catholicism •1 alt.romance.mature-adult
•1 alt.skinheads •1 alt.teens 

So tell me, Mr/Ms "Blackmore/Belling" who really _did_ send me those
two e-mails on July 30?  A little 13 year-old girl?  If not, which of
your alter egos sent me the e-mails?

Oh, whichever one of you sent the e-mail reply to the courtesy copy of
my post in the thread  Re: Mike Curtis's "Gas Chambers" (Oct. 25),
please post your e-mail publicly (to alt.revisionism - not one of the
other newsgroups s/he has frequented on occasion) if you would like a
response.

And do tell us, Mr/Ms "Blackmore/Belling"  should we be asking if you
know what your children are up to?  Or should we be asking if your
children know what you are up to?  

Oh, btw,  was s/he disappointed that  didn't
reply to 's scintillating response to ebilling's
plea?  

And while you are at it, maybe you could put away all your little
masks (yes, I know Halloween is coming up soon, but do try) and let
the REAL Blackmore/Belling person speak.  Let him/her put forward
(finally) - in a concise, adult fashion - a statement of his/her
position along with _verifiable_ sources for any claims s/he might
make in support of this "position." [With or without help from his/her
ghost writer.]

Or would you prefer to continue to work on the "Profile in Cowardice"
autobiographical portrait that you are painting for us with your
little one-liners and a multitude of other unartful dodges?

hro


=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Sat Oct 26 14:46:19 PDT 1996
Article: 77193 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Ten Commandments of Nizkor Supporters
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 1996 20:55:50 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 33
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <54tu7o$iou@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <54rg1s$rqu@juliana.sprynet.com> <3271D929.49D105B4@vertigo.combase.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: van0410.tvs.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

In <3271D929.49D105B4@vertigo.combase.com>, Hardwire
 wrote:

>rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

>[SNIP]

>[ROLLING ON THE FLOOR]

>That was actually pretty damned funny.... however
>appropriate/inappropriate it may have been.

>-- Hardwire

Thought it was that *funny* did you, Mr. Hardwire?!  That's good! No
doubt Mr/Ms Blackmore/Belling's ghost writer will appreciate your
accolade :>)

Personally, I prefer humour that shows some wit and subtlety.  Oh,
well ... different strokes for different folks, as someone once wisely
said!

Posted/e-mailed

hro


=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Sun Oct 27 01:02:05 PDT 1996
Article: 77227 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.fan.ernst-zundel
Subject: Re: 961026: Just an ordinary guy
Date: Sun, 27 Oct 1996 01:50:32 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 185
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <54ufg8$em@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <199610261933.PAA00156@gold.interlog.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: van0228.tvs.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:77227 alt.fan.ernst-zundel:3048

In <199610261933.PAA00156@gold.interlog.com>,
zundel-repost@alpha.c2.org (E. Zundel Repost) wrote:

[...]


Dear Ingrid,

Must be a slow day today, at the Z-house!  Despite his best efforts,
I'm sure, I guess poor old Ernie didn't get his press coverage on
account of being upstaged by all those nasty people trying to bring
the city of Toronto to a halt, yesterday.

But thank you so much for outlining your 12-step recovery program so
that others may find the true path to becoming a born-again
"revisionist."

>------------ BEGIN ZUNDELGRAM MESSAGE ------------

>October 26, 1996

>Good Morning from the Zundelsite:

>Since I became involved with Revisionism, I have known of only two
>"Revisionists" who later renounced this historical movement.  

Well perhaps if you were to see this "historical movement" and its
baseless foundation for what it really is, others might be more
inclined to reveal themselves to you.  Ever think of that, Ingrid?
Nah, I guess not.

[...]


>The letter below says it well:

You mean you haven't heard this before?  Where _have_ you been all
your life, Ingrid?

>"I am just an ordinary guy, a computer software engineer. As such, I like

Translation: Hello, my name is .....

>Just a scant few months ago (three maybe), I was an ardent defender of Jews
>and ideologically supported our aid to Israel and the right of Israel to
>exist at any price. 

Translation:   Some of my best friends are Jews.  

>I supported it unreservedly. My attitude was that the
>Palestinians were vicious animals who were trying to destroy the civilized
>and enlightened Jews in Israel.

You know,  Ingrid, I would really question the judgement and reasoning
ability of someone who held such an ignorant and hate-filled attitude
towards _any_ group of people.  Wouldn't you?  You wouldn't?  Oh,
sorry about that!

>I saw Schindler's List about 2 or 3 years ago, and I was horrified. I've
>never had a grudge against Germans. How could I? I revered Bach, Beethoven,
>Mozart, Albrecht Durer and the other great German musicians and artists too
>much to think of them as barbarians. But Schindler's List really aroused a
>fire in me. I became all the more supportive of Israel and the Jews.

Translation:  Oh dear!  Just like Ernie says, _Schindler's List_,
"promotes hatred against Germans"

>Then, due to my support of Pat Buchanan who was smeared as being
>anti-Semitic, I became a little curious as to why he was smeared as being
>an anti-Semite. I was talking with a Jewish friend of mine and she told me
>that Jews were hated all over the world.

Translation:  Pat Buchanan's a good guy.  Don't understand why people
don't like him.  Oh, here's a reason!  A "Jewish friend" says Jews are
hated all over the world.  Wow, that explains everything!

>No, I said. The French revere Jerry Lewis. He's Jewish.

Isn't that an "impressive" counter-argument?!  Amazing intellect this
Mr. Ordinary Guy has.

>But she kept insisting. Once I had heard that enough, I decided to do some
>reading. Why were the Jews so persecuted? I did quite a lot of reading, but
>the most shocking thing for me was reading excerpts from the Soncino
>edition of the Talmud that I found on the Internet.

Really?!!  Isn't that amazing Ingrid!  Mr. Ordinary Guy found the
Soncino Talmud on the Internet!  Wonder why he didn't share the URL of
this "authoritative" document with you.  You wouldn't have edited it
out of your transcription of this "testimonial" would you, Ingrid?
Surely all your avid readers should be pointed in the direction of
this "enlightening" document.

Yes, folks ... read all about it!  The evil Joooos are hated and
persecuted all over the world and it's ALL THEIR OWN FAULT!

>Then I went on soc.culture.jewish and lurked. Sure enough, these folks
>couldn't bring themselves to write the word Christian. It was always, Xian.
>And while they didn't rant and flame, their anti-Christian attitude was
>obvious. Finally, someone (a Jew) asked the question: is it more wrong for

Gee!  This Mr. "Ordinary Guy" has remarkable powers doesn't he?  Just
by lurking, he can tell a poster's religion.  Amazing.  Simply
amazing.

>a Jew to kill an Xian than another Jew? The answer was given in an analogy:
>it is a sin of one degree to do X on Jewish holiday Y and altogther another
>to do M on Jewish holiday N. (I don't remember the laws broken on which
>holidays.) If he had flamed, "KILL THE GOYIM," I would have dismissed it as
>anger. But the way he answered was chilling to me. He wasn't just flaming.

My! My! My! What a selective lurker, this Mr. Ordinary Guy must be!  I
guess he's never heard of Deja News either!  Too bad!  It is an
invaluable tool for one who is attempting to sort out fact from
fiction.  

You really should send Mr. Ordinary Guy a note to let him know that
with just a few keystrokes he could have found _thousands_ of
posts/cross-posts (no pun intended) to soc.culture.jewish in which the
word "Christian" was written out in full.  

And if he was a little less "selective" in his lurking,  he might even
pick up some information about Judaism and Jewish people that is
considerably closer to reality than anything he has apparently found
so far.

>He merely acknowledged the FACT that a Gentile was less than a Jew.
>Precisely what I had read in the Talmud.

FACT?!   Is this a new acronym I see before me? Fictitious Abstract
Contradicting Truth.  Oh, right!  I forgot - he "read [it] in the
Talmud" that he found on the Internet.  Yep.  Must a FACT.

>>From there, I had to look more. I then came across the Revisionist

Is this an extra chevron I see before me?  What a touching note of
authenticity this adds to this moving "testimonial," Ingrid.

[other predictable revelations deleted]

>These things, combined with many other things that I've read, have
>convinced me that my view of Jews seems to have been very wrong. These are
>not persecuted pacifists. They are merciless, brutal and totally
>unforgiving. They never forgive. They are not pacifists. They are
>opportunists. And when they have the opportunity they will destroy anyone
>who opposes them or displeases them.

Gee whiz!  This "deprogramming" of yours is really powerful stuff,
isn't it Ingrid?  Look how far Mr. Ordinary Guy has travelled from his
first paragraph to this last.  Why there's almost a touch of poetic
symmetry to his "heartfelt" outpouring.

>I'm really long winded here, 

Certainly can't argue with that!

>but I wanted to give you my perspective and
>the effect that revisionism has had on me."

How very moving.

>I have nothing to add to this letter.

Well, fancy that!  And to think that there are people out there who
have the _nerve_ to claim that the *real* agenda of those who espouse
this "great adventure of the 20th century" - as you so often like to
speak of "Revisionism," Ingrid  - is the promulgation of anti-Semitic
propaganda.  

Amazing!  Simply amazing!

Do have a nice day, Ingrid.


Posted - not e-mailed [For some reason, I have the impression that
Ingrid isn't really interested in dialogue, anyway.  So why waste the
bandwidth, eh?!]

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Sun Oct 27 01:02:06 PDT 1996
Article: 77246 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news-out.internetmci.com!pull-feed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!howland.erols.net!EU.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.palestine
Subject: Re: An Open Question to Tom Moran and Kurt Stele
Date: Sun, 27 Oct 1996 04:54:51 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 35
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <54uq9o$24o@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <3258957C.3767@ns.sympatico.ca> <5425si$pgr@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>  <543uvb$7bg@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <5458sn$67g@tricia.msn.fullfeed.com> <54q1le$1bog@news.gate.net> <3272cbcf.1764245@news.awinc.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: van0323.tvs.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.conspiracy:103984 alt.revisionism:77246 soc.culture.israel:48004 soc.culture.jewish:86420 soc.culture.palestine:22651

In
,
Kimberley Ahlf  wrote:



>On Sun, 27 Oct 1996, Ken Lewis wrote:

>> On Fri, 25 Oct 1996 09:34:02 GMT, dli21@gate.net (Danny Li) wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> >	If he is so dumb, why is he still posting?  
>> 
>> So your foolish antics can get your sad, sorry ass kicked off another ISP
>> thus continuing to fulfill your  bottomless self-hatred and need for
>> attention?
>> 
>> 

>Hey-  Danny Li sure fixed that problem he was having with stilted English
>awful fast!  He must be taking a correspondence course from that
>mail-order school down in Tampa   :-)

>-ODB

Amazing, isn't it!  And here I thought those schools down in Florida
were only good for getting degrees in basketweaving and such :>)

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Sun Oct 27 23:06:56 PST 1996
Article: 77392 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Belling/Blackmore:  Profiles in Cowardice?
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 12:29:47 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 30
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <550v5b$b8c@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <54sol5$3us@atlas.uniserve.com> <3273985F.23A3@ccnis.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: van0213.tvs.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

In <3273985F.23A3@ccnis.net>, "Annie Alpert, OFB" 
wrote:

>Hilary Ostrov wrote:
>> 

[peach post purged for posterity]

>> 
>Hilary, you are a peach!  I await Mr/s Belling-Blackmore's reply with
>'baited' breath 

Sheesh, Annie!  I thought we were on the same side!  And here you are
accusing me of being one of those fruit-flavoured trolls we have seen
of late :>)

Strange though, haven't seen anything from the M/F B/B since I posted
this "Profiles in Cowardice".  Hmmm.... Wonder if s/he might have ...
uh ... slipped on a banana peel?!

Posted/e-mailed

hro

=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Sun Oct 27 23:06:57 PST 1996
Article: 77393 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 961026: Just an ordinary guy
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 12:29:49 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 86
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <550v5f$b8c@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <54ufg8$em@atlas.uniserve.com> <54v3u9$4lj@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
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In <54v3u9$4lj@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
wrote:

Perhaps Mr. Thomas would be kind enough to explain the relevance of
his comments to the topic under discussion in this newsgroup, i.e. the
historicity of the Holocaust.

>H. Ostrov wrote:

>>>I supported it unreservedly. My attitude was that the
>>>Palestinians were vicious animals who were trying to destroy the
>civilized
>>>and enlightened Jews in Israel.
>>
>>You know,  Ingrid, I would really question the judgement and reasoning
>>ability of someone who held such an ignorant and hate-filled attitude
>>towards _any_ group of people.  Wouldn't you?  You wouldn't?  Oh,
>>sorry about that!

>Have to agree with you on this one.  I have a hard time trusting Shamir,
>Sharon, Netanyahu, and a whole bunch of others with similar attitudes.

>>>He merely acknowledged the FACT that a Gentile was less than a Jew.
>>>Precisely what I had read in the Talmud.
>>
>>FACT?!   Is this a new acronym I see before me? Fictitious Abstract
>>Contradicting Truth.  Oh, right!  I forgot - he "read [it] in the
>>Talmud" that he found on the Internet.  Yep.  Must a FACT.

>Well, Prof. Israel Shahak sure seems to think that this is how the hard
>line Orthodox folks view things.  But what does he know, eh?  For a
>graphic illustration, so to speak, of the loving attitude held toward
>Palestinians, check out:

>http://www.flinet.com/~politics/

>Be sure to look for the file called Dental.mov, a charming little 8 second
>film clip showing a blindfolded Palestinian teenager on the ground being
>shot several times in the face at close range, in dying color.  It's a
>little hard to sit through, but it's only 8 seconds long.  The clever file
>name refers to the fact that the bullets push a row of teeth into the
>center of his open mouth, much the same as Robert Faurisson when he had
>his face kicked in by people who apparently didn't agree with his views. 
>Maybe you can find something cute to say about it.  I couldn't come up
>with any witty repartee because part of my lunch was trying to come up.

>David


In concluding my original post which, readers will observe,  has been
much edited by Mr. Thomas in his "response", I had written:



[...] And to think that there are people out there who have the
_nerve_ to claim that the *real* agenda of those who espouse
this "great adventure of the 20th century" - as you so often like to
speak of "Revisionism," Ingrid  - is the promulgation of anti-Semitic
propaganda.  



Mr. Thomas' "response" suggests very strongly that I should amend the
above paragraph to read as follows:

"And to think that there are people out there who have the _nerve_ to
claim that the *real* agenda of those who espouse this "great
adventure of the 20th century" - as you so often like to speak of
"Revisionism," Ingrid  - is the promulgation of anti-Jewish and/or
anti-Israel propaganda. "

IMHO, Mr. Thomas' "response" also suggests very strongly that this
depiction of "Revisionism" just might be far more accurate than one
might have imagined.

hro




=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Wed Oct 30 07:29:14 PST 1996
Article: 77795 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.bc.net!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Fill Me In: What happened to the Giwer-Swine?
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 23:23:30 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 59
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <557e6a$rv1@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <199610231658.AA14832@world.std.com>   <3270D751.7DD08F9C@vertigo.combase.com> <54sp0c$3d7@is05.micron.net>  <54v2f5$7ip@is05.micron.net>  <5525g0$3ih@is05.micron.net>  <5566gh$mrr@is05.micron.net> 
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In
,
Kimberley Ahlf  wrote:

>On Wed, 30 Oct 1996, Kurt Stele wrote:

>> Kimberley Ahlf  wrote:
>> 
>> >How *do* you interpret Hitler's statement that "No nation can remove [the
>> >Jews'] hand from its throat except by the sword" Mr. Stele?  Is Hitler
>> >proposing that Germans should get swords and cut-off the hands of Jews, or
>> >is he inciting Germans to destroy the Jews in their midst?
>> 
>> OH LOOK!!  Dear Mrs. Ahlf!!  Shame on you.   Changing the substance of
>> your quote now! You claimed Hitler's goal was to "enslave and destroy"
>> the other races!!  Shall I post it again?  

>If I am to read your apparent scorn correctly, you are trying to say that
>"destroy the Jews in their midst" is materially different than my earlier
>quote of ""enslave and destroy," is that correct?

Ms. Ahlf, it is really most unfair of you to take advantage of the
Stellic-troll's obvious deficiencies. While he has mastered cutting,
pasting, insulting and SHOUTING (all part of the curriculum for Denier
101), he has yet to learn how to camouflage his ignorance or his lack
of comprehension skills.

Perhaps he's trying to impress Mr/Ms. Belling/Blackmore [and/or
his/her ghost writer] who must be so in awe of the content-free
emanations from Stele's keyboard that s/he has been silent for quite a
few days now.  I certainly can't imagine that there would be anyone
other than an illiterate 13 year-old who would even bother trying to
find anything of substance in a Stele-blathering (reminds me of
looking for a needle in a haystack, actually)

[much deleted]
 
>> >Again, more disappearing text.  Go read it on my reposting.
>> 
>> Nothing was deleted not irrelevant, and certainly not exaggerative!

>I don't know what you're trying to say here.
>  

Don't worry, neither does anyone else.  I'll raise this issue at the
next ZOG meeting.  Maybe we can find a volunteer to zap his collander
so that every tenth post of his will have at least one paragraph with
a semblance of civility and reason to it.

Posted/e-mailed to Ms. Ahlf [but not to Mr. Stele because he lacks the
ability to comprehend]

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Thu Oct 31 23:10:09 PST 1996
Article: 78020 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: misc.invest.stocks,misc.invest,misc.invest.misc,misc.invest.canada,alt.society.conservatism,alt.politics.usa.constitution,alt.politics.misc,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,soc.culture.usa,alt.conspiracy,talk.politic
Subject: Re: Stock Raiders: Oy Vey, Vhat a Country! (ADV)
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: Fri, 01 Nov 1996 02:44:22 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 29
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <55boh2$4ok@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <55bahs$igi@news.NetVision.net.il>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca misc.invest.stocks:61559 misc.invest:77282 misc.invest.canada:13767 alt.society.conservatism:58230 alt.politics.usa.constitution:98884 alt.politics.nationalism.white:34666 alt.revisionism:78020 alt.politics.white-power:48139 soc.culture.usa:97736 alt.conspiracy:105502

In <55bahs$igi@news.NetVision.net.il>, DAN  
wrote:

>kurtstel@micron.net (Kurt Stele) writes:
>> 
>> Gee, do you think the Talmud causes the Israelis to torture Palestinians and shoot
>> Palestinian children in the head with Uzis?   Let's see how good Andrew Mathis' reading
>> comprehension is, shall we?

>Don't believe to arab propaganda,Kurt.
>I served in Gaza couple of years ago,and remember tens of 
>palestinians throwing bricks from 6-8 meters and my officer
>asking by walkie-talkie to use fucking shock-grenade(nobody even talked about 
>shooting).
>So stop talking about things you don't know nothing about.

Dan, don't worry about anything the Stellic-troll says.  As he
demonstrates almost daily in his favourite pasting/posting ground, he
excels at flaunting his ignorance.

[Follow-ups set to alt.revisionism]

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Thu Oct 31 23:10:10 PST 1996
Article: 78022 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Another Holocaust Peculiarity
Date: Fri, 01 Nov 1996 02:44:10 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 33
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <55bogl$4ok@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <32684656.167E@itsa.ucsf.edu> <54qd7n$1s6@juliana.sprynet.com>  <846615766snz@abaron.demon.co.uk> <55679i$hr5@atlas.uniserve.com> <846796592snz@abaron.demon.co.uk>
NNTP-Posting-Host: van0220.tvs.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

In <846796592snz@abaron.demon.co.uk>, A_Baron@abaron.demon.co.uk
(Alexander Baron) wrote:

>In article <55679i$hr5@atlas.uniserve.com>
>           hostrov@uniserve.com "Hilary Ostrov" writes:
>> Oh, the affidavits "are not credible"?!  Well, Alex, while one really
>> expects far less from you than one does of any doctor (of medicine -
>> or of documents for that matter!), do tell us what particular
>> expertise you have that would give us any reason whatsoever to believe
>> that your assessment of the credibility of these affidavits should
>> engender anything other than laughter.

>Please don't call me Alex. Bimko testified, among other things, that 4 million
>people were killed in one crematorium. She said she had been shown around it
>and seen the gassing apparatus. Oh dear.

You don't want me to call you Alex?!  Oh, OK.  Let's make a deal:
I'll stop calling you "Alex" as soon as you answer the question I
_asked_.  Let me rephrase it for you, Alex, and this time I'll even
make it an explicit question rather than an implicit one (question
mark and all):

Alex, what particular expertise do you have that would give us any
reason whatsoever to believe that _your_ assessment of the credibility
of these affidavits should engender anything other than laughter?

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Fri Nov  1 09:09:42 PST 1996
Article: 78086 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!hookup!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.bc.net!news.mindlink.net!van-bc!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Fill Me In: What happened to the Giwer-Swine?
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 07:30:36 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 64
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <558ann$3ne@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <54fvdl$jb6@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca> <326DABCF.4464A533@vertigo.combase.com> <199610231310.JAA11812@tor-srs1.netcom.ca>  <54p5ct$b58@access5.digex.net> <199610300622.BAA28335@access4.digex.net> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: van0125.tvs.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

In ,
Hardwire  wrote:

Can't seem to find this response from Mr. Stein on my server or Deja
News, but I'm sure it will show up sooner or later.  Then again,
perhaps Mr. Hardwire is responding publicy to private e-mail.

>On Wed, 30 Oct 1996, Michael P. Stein wrote:

>> In article <3270D5F6.2B2BA07C@vertigo.combase.com> you write:
>> >Michael P. Stein wrote:
>> >
>> >[snip]
>> >> The man is a proven and even self-confessed liar.
>> >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Those URL's again, folks:

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted..html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html

>> >
>> >
>> >And that's slander Mr. Stein.

Slander?  How so, Mr. Hardwire?

>> 
>[snip]
>>     I can prove my claim beyond a reasonable doubt - and all I need is
>> preponderance of evidence (a weaker standard).  Moreover, I am using the
>> _strict_ definition of lying, which requires that the person knows at the
>> time the statement is uttered that it is false, or has good reason to know
>> that it is false.
>> 
>>     I have made the same statement for months.  Matt Giwer has not filed
>> suit against me.  Draw your own conclusions.
>> 

>My conclusion would be that Mr. Giwer, unlike many of the people on this 
>group, has a higher tolerance level and does not revert to crying 
>"technicality!" or "legality!" when threatened with a post meant to 
>incite and provoke. 

It seems that Mr. Hardwire has quite a unique method of drawing
conclusions.  But it does ring a faint bell. Perhaps he has been
influenced by the erudite ehrlichian one who also developed a very
selective view of troll-posts.  So much so that it would be difficult
to discern from his descriptions and "arguments" that he had in fact
read the posts in question.

Although one does wonder how Mr. Hardwire believes that his valiant
"defense" is in any way helping the troll - or his own credibility for
that matter.

hro

Posted/e-mailed to Mr. Hardwire and Mr. Stein
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/




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