The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/nyms/dthomas/1997/thomas.0197


From dvdthomas@aol.com Thu Jan  2 05:45:37 PST 1997
Article: 90538 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "Muench" on this
Date: 2 Jan 1997 11:25:05 GMT
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Mark wrote:

>[Mr. Belling's "speculations" and Nazi apologia snipped]
>
>For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
>Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, anti-Semtism, and outright lies,
>please visit:
>
>http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
>http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.09
96
>http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.10
96
>http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.11
96

Aside from the gender skew, if the shoe fits.....

"She could only judge other people by her own mind.  That was the great
lack in her character, after all.  She measured every other person by her
own warped mind."--James A. Cooper

David
_________________________________________________________

"He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me."
-in those who harbor such thoughts hatred will never cease.
"He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me."
-in those who do not harbor such thoughts hatred will cease.
For hatred does not cease by hatred at any time: hatred ceases by love, this is an old rule.

>From  the Twin Verses of the Dhammapada

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Thu Jan  2 16:10:13 PST 1997
Article: 25669 of soc.history.war.world-war-ii
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: soc.history.war.world-war-ii
Subject: Re: Civilian deaths. What's wrong with collective guilt?
Date: 2 Jan 1997 02:51:45 GMT
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>if for example german armed forces rounded up civilians to shoot, 
>destroyed libraries, churches and historical treasures of tribes
>they deemed inferior, or loaded barges with captured enemy to 
>capsize at sea, mistreated war captives etc etc, there's no reason
>to suppose that somehow the law would not return this malevolence,
>amplified, to them and their wives and their children. hue miller

Destroyed libraries, huh?  The bloody rotters.  I'll bring up the issue of
carpet bombing retaliation at the next public meeting discussing budget
cuts and library downsizing in this county. :-)

The concept of killing the wives and children of any people for any reason
is pure barbarism.  Sorry, but I can't buy into that one.  It's easy to
understand the feelings behind it, particularly from those victimized in a
struggle, but it's a subhuman concept.  How can you justify descending
below the moral level of that which you oppose on moral grounds?

If war crimes are committed, punish the criminals.  No civilized nation
extends the punishment to those uninvolved in the crime.  Whoops!  I
forgot about the asset forfeitures that are part of Reefer Bill's only
notable involvement in military actions, the War on Drugs that's stuffing
our prisons with those wild-eyed pot smokers and coincidentally fattening
the treasuries of their captors via seized houses and cars (Sorry lady,
your old man's a pothead.  You and the kids gotta vacate by noon tomorrow,
and you'll have to walk.)  But aside from that I mean.

Regards,
David Thomas
_________________________________________________________

"He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me."
-in those who harbor such thoughts hatred will never cease.
"He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me."
-in those who do not harbor such thoughts hatred will cease.
For hatred does not cease by hatred at any time: hatred ceases by love, this is an old rule.

>From the Twin Verses of the Dhammapada

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)



From dvdthomas@AOL.COM Thu Jan  2 16:10:16 PST 1997
Article: 25680 of soc.history.war.world-war-ii
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From: dvdthomas@AOL.COM (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: soc.history.war.world-war-ii
Subject: Re: Strategic Bombing Effectiveness
Date: 2 Jan 1997 07:59:18 -0500
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Posted-Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 07:08:08 -0500
Moderator: jbdavis@pobox.com [John Davis - Moderator]

Scott Stafford wrote:

>> The Germans had developed nerve gas and had large stockpiles of it.  We
>> had no equivalent, and no defenses.  Its use would have gained them
>> tremendous advantage.  As to why they did not use it, one can only
>> speculate.  
>
>The Germans, true, had *better* war gasses--but none of these chemicals 
>are terribly difficult to make and use (witness the abortive sarin attack

>in Japan).  Had the Germans used tabun, the allies would certainly have 
>responded with lethal gas of one stripe or another--and given the allied 
>air and artillery supremacy, they could have delivered the gas with much 
>better effect.

I think we're talking slightly past one another here.  Something I take
for granted that tends to get lost in a modern perspective (am I getting
that old?) is the nature of the first nerve gasses.  They were the
nightmare, invincible weapons that mercifully were never used.  Even with
the various protections and counter-measures available today, they'd be a
bad thing to encounter.  The main point of my reference is that when the
Germans had them, **we did not**.  Nor did we have defenses.  They would
have been devastating.  The stuff we had could have been defended against,
and chemical warfare gear was available in quantity among German forces, a
legacy of the not too distant past war to end all wars.

>> This gets back to a definition of "strategic bombing."  Destruction of
>> transport, fuel, industry, and so on is of clear benefit and I think
this
>> was generally accepted by all the combatants.  If that resulted in
>> incidental damage to civilians, it was an unavoidable cost of doing a
>> necessary job.  Intentional warfare on civilians is not, in my opinion,
a
>> moral course of action on the part of any ostensibly civilized nation.
>
>This is certainly arguable, and I'm willing to concede that many more 
>people agree with you than agree with me.  My point is that there is 
>something a bit artificial about this dictum that states that I am a 
>"legitimate" target if I'm wearing a uniform and holding a rifle--but I 
>am sacrosanct if I am wearing coveralls manufacture 100 rifles a day (or 
>if I happen be female, or happen to be under a certain age).

Hold on.  Arms production, or "industry", is a viable target.  A rationale
I read for strafing farmers in the fields because they were "feeding the
soldiers" strains my sense of morality.  When you get down to females and
humans "under a certain age," i.e. children, I can't go along with you.

>Does it strike anyone else that it seems rather strange that if my 
>paratrooper father had been blown apart by an aerial bomb, it would have 
>been "the fortunes of war;" while had my mother or older sister been 
>similarly reduced to component parts, that would have constituted "an 
>atrocity?"  Bit sexist and ageist, this, eh?

War among all creatures has been a matter of males getting together and
butting heads to see who gets the goodies.  Involve entire populations at
the risk of extinction of the species.

>But are we necessarily better off if we "limit" war?  I mean this 
>seriously, in that we seem to have had a lot *more* wars back in the days

>when wars were fought by a prince's professional army than we do today, 
>when a major war would involve burning entire areas of the globe down to 
>irradiated ashes.

Think what it would mean in reduction of human suffering and waste of
human endeavor and accomplishment if war were steadily limited, down to
the vanishing point.  Just before that occurred, ultimate justice would
see wars conducted by all the old assholes who pump the young ones to go
out and slaughter one another to settle self-serving arguments.  Wouldn't
it have been better to see the House of Commons and the Reichstag battle
to death in an open field than for the world to endure the escalated
alternative?  Better the princes' mercenaries (or the princes) get
dismembered than mom and pop and baby sister.

Regards,
David

 



From dvdthomas@aol.com Thu Jan  2 16:10:17 PST 1997
Article: 25682 of soc.history.war.world-war-ii
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: soc.history.war.world-war-ii
Subject: Re: Strategic Bombing Effectiveness
Date: 2 Jan 1997 07:59:01 -0500
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Posted-Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 06:31:16 -0500
Moderator: jbdavis@pobox.com [John Davis - Moderator]

Ed Frank wrote (regarding WWII expenditures):

>Allies         Axis
>
>    $721 b.        $274 b.
>
>So, winning the war cost approximately 2.5 times the money
>that losing it did.  How would a cost-effectiveness-oriented
>bean counter view that fact?

If he's competent, he (or she, I tend to forget what year it is) will add
in a couple trillion or so that we spent flexing muscles for one of the
victors, Russia.

Regards,
David Thomas



From dvdthomas@aol.com Thu Jan  2 16:10:18 PST 1997
Article: 25684 of soc.history.war.world-war-ii
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: soc.history.war.world-war-ii
Subject: Target selection for A-Bombs
Date: 2 Jan 1997 07:59:42 -0500
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Posted-Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 07:42:05 -0500
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Recently got into a discussion regarding whether Japan was a preferred
target for use of atomic weapons because of racial factors, to put it
plainly.  I am aware that the two bombs used in August of 1945 were
completed only a short time before, and thus could not have been used
before the Germans were defeated.  It also seems doubtful that a decision
to use them on the "monkey people" versus "whites like us" would hardly
have been mentioned in any official accounts.  What I'm wondering is if
anyone has references to commentary on this subject.

Thanks much.

David Thomas



From dvdthomas@aol.com Thu Jan  2 16:10:19 PST 1997
Article: 25695 of soc.history.war.world-war-ii
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: soc.history.war.world-war-ii
Subject: Re: Strategic Bombing Effectiveness
Date: 2 Jan 1997 15:52:17 GMT
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Ed Frank wrote:

>(Which is not to deny that if anyone ever deserved to have their
>cities busted, it was the Germans of 1939-1945...)

 Substitute different names and dates, and you can see that this is a
victor's form statement.

What this century has seen is a monumental struggle for world trade
domination, the social issues have just been thorns in that big mud-ball. 
Germany threatened dominance, and Germany got ground into the earth.  The
next 100 years are going to be interesting, in the Chinese sense.

Regards,
David Thomas



From dvdthomas@aol.com Thu Jan  2 16:10:20 PST 1997
Article: 25696 of soc.history.war.world-war-ii
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: soc.history.war.world-war-ii
Subject: Re: Strategic Bombing Effectiveness
Date: 2 Jan 1997 15:52:21 GMT
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>Also, there was no large scale use of German fighters
>in Normandy, for the simple reason that there were very
>few German fighters left.
>
>Ed Frank

I don't think any single factor can be selected to explain the eventual
demise of the Luftwaffe as an effective force.  They accelerated
production rates too late; instructors were sent to the East and died
there, contributing significantly to a lack of trained pilots later on;
defending against bombing raids caused many losses;  Hitler chose to
promote bomber production in a vain attempt to damage now heavily defende
England; and ill-advised use of fighters resulted in crippling losses of
machines and pilots.  Quoting on the last from Raymond and Toliver:

"Typical of this high-level 'sabotage' was the Hitlerian edict on 20 June
1944 that all available fighters be sent to France to help stop the
invasion.  This decision came just as the effects of the Fighter
Staff-Speer combination were becoming evident.  Fighter production was
soaring, and pilots were being trained to replenish losses and build up
reserves."

The diversion of the fighters to Normandy resulted in heavy losses for the
already depleted ranks, losses that were never made up.

Regards,
David Thomas



From dvdthomas@aol.com Thu Jan  2 16:47:18 PST 1997
Article: 90618 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Katyn Massacre: Why does CODOH obscure the truth?
Date: 2 Jan 1997 21:18:57 GMT
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Sammy Li wrote, to Ken McVay:

>>>Presented below is a translation of USSR-008.  Can this document be
>>>accepted at face value?  You decide!
>>
>>There is no need to "decide," Mr. Widmann. The International
>>Military Tribunal has already done that for us, convicting
>>precisely _zero_ defendants of Katyn-related events. 
>>
>>Zero. Nada. None, Mr. Widmann.
>>
>>That is because the Soviets were not believed. What's to decide?
>
> Whether or not any of the evidence provided by the Soviets has
>any credibility, of course.  
>
> At the minimum we need to decide what else they fabricated.

Well put Mr. Li.  The credibility or lack of same of the Auschwitz report
is exactly the point being made, which is obvious in Widmann's original
post and in the Website location it referenced.  There he notes that the
same two Soviets who signed the Katyn report were the authenticators of
the Auschwitz report as well.  

So how much confidence does the fact that the Katyn report is a proven and
finally admitted fraud give you in the validity of the Auschwitz report? 
How much blind credibility should be given to either of these documents? 
Well, in the words of a selectively eloquent archivist of the documents: 

"Zero. Nada. None, Mr. Widmann."  

And Mr. Li, and all others who try to look at this situation objectively.

Cheers,
David Thomas
_________________________________________________________

"He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me."
-in those who harbor such thoughts hatred will never cease.
"He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me."
-in those who do not harbor such thoughts hatred will cease.
For hatred does not cease by hatred at any time: hatred ceases by love, this is an old rule.

>From  the Twin Verses of the Dhammapada

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Thu Jan  2 16:47:18 PST 1997
Article: 90626 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Zyklon B / Carbon monoxide comparison
Date: 2 Jan 1997 20:48:57 GMT
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Jamie wrote:

>Mr. Moran, we've been told by Fritz Berg and a handful of other
>Holocaust-deniers, in this forum, that gassing with engine exhaust
>was incredibly wasteful -- that there was a fuel shortage, that
>it took precious oil to keep the engines running.  They say why on
>earth would precious diesel fuel be used to kill people when
>German trucks were parked on the streets for lack of gas?
>
>Therefore, they say, the Holocaust never happened.

I'll take your word that Berg said that (and also take exception to your
description of him as a "Holocaust-denier"), but it isn't and never was a
factor in the main points he makes.  Diesel engines are an extremely
inefficient way to generate carbon monoxide. Their normal operating
characteristics just aren't conducive to its formation at lethal levels. 
A diesel engine would have to be operated at such a rich air/fuel ratio
that there would be rapid buildup of solids in the cylinders which would
ruin the engine.  It isn't a lengthy process, it would occur within hours,
or at most, days.  In addition, the engine would have to be run at 80% to
100% of full load, rather a difficult thing to do for a stationary mounted
unit.  A dynamometer type loading device would have to be installed. 
There is again no record or mention of the presence of this large,
expensive, and highly specialized item in any supply records, statements
or testimonies.  

Gasoline engines, on the other hand, are excellent sources of carbon
monoxide, as evidenced by the frequency of suicides using automobile
exhaust.  Gasoline was also in short supply in wartime Germany, a fact
that caused them to invent and build a half-million or more "producer gas
generators" which were small add-on modules that could be mounted on
vehicles to provide fuel for their modified engines.  This was done in
great numbers to solve the problem of petroleum shortages.  Producer gas
powered vans, trucks and buses were a standard mode of transportation
throughout Germany and occupied Europe and Russia.  

Wood chips were burned in a converter chamber whose output was a flammable
mix of gases that contained high levels of carbon monoxide, 25% on the
average (carbon monoxide is also flammable).  This gas mix was lethal in
its produced state and found limited use as a fumigant, probably for rats,
not insects.  The drawback of course is that it's also highly flammable,
and in quantity, explosive.  However, it is a simple matter to set such an
engine so that its exhaust emits carbon monoxide in reduced but still
deadly levels that would kill quickly without the risk of explosion.  

Given the ready availability of the producer gas vehicles and the fact
that their operation required only ordinary wood chips, they would have
been an obviously more practical choice than either of the other two types
of engines or, for that matter, Zyklon-B.  Yet, aside from stories of
field use of "killing vans" in which the alleged victims were placed in
the back of such trucks for gassing in a limited area of the Eastern Front
and one or two other locations, there is absolutely no mention of their
use in camps for this purpose in the historical record.  No mention in
German records, and no claims by purported witnesses.  (The former, by the
way, would naturally be the case if there were no gassing chambers.)  All
you have is the diesel claim, which I understand is beginning to be
revised to gasoline by some of the sanctioned historians, no doubt in
quiet reaction to the improbability of a diesel being able to do what has
been claimed.  

And, yes, I know of the report from a British medical journal in the
fifties in which several animals were killed with diesel exhaust in a
scantily documented experiment.  All that proves is that it is, as stated
earlier here and elsewhere by Berg, marginally possible to push a diesel
to its limits and achieve lethal levels of CO in its exhaust *FOR A VERY
SHORT PERIOD OF TIME*, something I do not recall the report addressing.

Regards,
David Thomas
_________________________________________________________

"He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me."
-in those who harbor such thoughts hatred will never cease.
"He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me."
-in those who do not harbor such thoughts hatred will cease.
For hatred does not cease by hatred at any time: hatred ceases by love, this is an old rule.

>From  the Twin Verses of the Dhammapada

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Thu Jan  2 23:00:35 PST 1997
Article: 25710 of soc.history.war.world-war-ii
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: soc.history.war.world-war-ii
Subject: Re: Favorite Quote
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Posted-Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 20:44:17 -0500
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>"In time of war, truth is so important she must be constantly surrounded
>by a bodyguard of lies"  Winston Churchill

Wow!  Talk about a guy who practiced what he preached. :-)

Regards,
David Thomas



From dvdthomas@aol.com Thu Jan  2 23:00:36 PST 1997
Article: 25713 of soc.history.war.world-war-ii
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: soc.history.war.world-war-ii
Subject: Re: Favorite Quote
Date: 2 Jan 1997 21:16:44 -0500
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Posted-Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 20:50:42 -0500
Moderator: jbdavis@pobox.com [John Davis - Moderator]

>Donnah Dunthorn wrote:
>> 
>>   "They got us surrounded, the poor bastards."
>> 
>>   Anonymous GI
>> 
>>   d.
>
>Actually, IIRC, this is also attributed to an "anonymous" Israeli
>referring to the (again) attacking Arab nations.
>-- 
>  The Regimental Rogue
>
>Michael M. O'Leary

I'm pretty sure this is WWII, and the person, or at least his unit, is not
anonymous.  Unfortunately, I can't recall more than that, will scan a few
books that might have something on it.

Addressing Michael's claim in a hypothetical sense, I'd have to say that I
can't imagine any Israeli serviceman saying something that sympathetic
about Arabs.  And there's also the matter that Israeli units have been
surrounded on damned few occasions.  Although you do say "nations" so I
suppose it's a strategic observation.

David Thomas



From dvdthomas@aol.com Fri Jan  3 09:48:27 PST 1997
Article: 25715 of soc.history.war.world-war-ii
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: soc.history.war.world-war-ii
Subject: Re: Rating Generals in WWII:Bad and good
Date: 3 Jan 1997 02:50:03 GMT
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>This is very interesting....what does any of this have to do with
>MacArthur?  Surely one cannot *fairly* conclude that him requesting for
>supplies for *his* command for which he was responsible (he wasn't
>responsible for the Central Pacific) and these requests being granted by
>Marshall, Roosevelt, etc mad any statement regarding MacArthur's
>generalship at all....right?  I mean how can you hold him responsible for
>decision he didn't make?  If you are why not hold Nimitz responsible
>because he *didn't* have enough ego to get the needed supplies to attack
>Iwo Jima and Okinawa?
>
>Dave
>cpsidfw@onramp.net

MacArthur was popular with the American public (he looked, walked and
talked like a strong leader) and thus valuable for morale purposes in
addition to leadership talent. He was well entrenched in his own niche in
the military system, with friends in high places in the government, and
his influence was out of proportion to his command area or its importance.
 Superiors in the Army were said to resent him, but their biases were
over-ridden by the things I've noted, plus his own force of will, which
was considerable.  He personally was responsible for a diversion of effort
and resources (to fulfill his own vision of being at the center of things)
that could have been put to better use elsewhere.  There was much
resentment of him from other commanders, in all branches.  Many felt that
his actions cost both time and lives in their commands.  I don't know
enough about the details to make a judgement, and thus do not condemn him
for this, only repeat the charges to which I tend to give uninformed
credence.  Although I guess that's the essence of history--"a generally
agreed upon fiction."  Not that my agreement plays any part in that
establishment.

Best regards,
David Thomas



From dvdthomas@aol.com Fri Jan  3 09:48:29 PST 1997
Article: 25718 of soc.history.war.world-war-ii
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
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Subject: Re: Rating Generals in WWII:Bad and good
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An expansion on Philip Chiu's remarks about MacArthur.

I've had a personal problem with MacArthur's personality that really
should be a side issue, and have come to the grudging conclusion that,
yes, he was a great military leader.  His problems in WWII, certainly in
the early portion, were in large part due to his having been consumed by
his own ego in the thirties and going not a little bit whacko in the
process.  It was a bizarre episode in his life, which saw him acting (and
even dressing) like a warlord or some kind of warrior emperor.  Believe it
even resulted in his leaving the service for a time, though the details
are now many years old in my memory.  It's one of the reasons he was not
given a significant role in Europe.  When he reestablished himself in the
Philipines, he was in a mood of depression, but there was a strong
residual sense of personal autonomy that remained in place and he fixated
on the region to a point that greatly exaggerated its strategic
importance.  Don't know that he ever got over the "law unto himself"
feeling, but he performed well and his personality suited the Emperor
worshipping Japanese mentality perfectly, which turned out to be a good
thing for their nation.  They respected his occupation dictatorship, and
he treated "his" charges with paternal decency.  Would that Germany could
have been so lucky.

For what it's worth, I'll add that MacArthur was one of those people (like
FDR and Patton) who had a strong, domineering and driving mother (a
refined but forbidding upper-class "superwoman"), who lived to an advanced
age and played a major guiding role throughout most of his life.  I
believe MacArthur's mother continued to select clothing for him to wear to
civilian dress occasions until she died (and probably left a list then). 
Maybe that explains why he stayed in the Army for half a century and was
seldom seen in other than a uniform (highly stylized in most cases--momma
couldn't stick her nose into this tiny portion of his life).  Something
tells me that if this pair had come along forty or so years later, he'd
have been an astronaut on a moon shot, simply because you can't get much
further away than that.  Or perhaps a tennis pro, a la Jimmy Connors, who
had the same benefit cum problem.

David Thomas



From dvdthomas@aol.com Fri Jan  3 09:48:30 PST 1997
Article: 25730 of soc.history.war.world-war-ii
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: soc.history.war.world-war-ii
Subject: Re: Number of aces in Germany
Date: 3 Jan 1997 08:42:36 -0500
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Posted-Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 21:18:00 -0500
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>As to how many planes the Luftwaffe aces really shot down, it's unlikely
>anyone will ever know.  Certainly fewer than claimed.  But that's no
doubt
>true of the aces of every air force.  The key point is that their claims
>were sincere, based on the evidence available to them, and not fictions
>created for propaganda purposes.

This could be correct, there's no way to prove it one way or another. 
Some of the numerical exaggerations referred to turn out to be referring
to German radio broadcasts or newspapers, which no doubt contained
inflated numbers and claims.  However an argument against over-claims for
the German pilots is their requirements for claiming a kill.  There had to
be a German witness, either ground or airborne I believe, and the
destruction had to be observed, not deduced.  There are numerous accounts
of German pilots, including Galland, who had kills that were confirmed by
Allied records that never entered their official totals.  No witness, no
kill credit, simple as that.  I would also hazard a guess that, given the
"honorable warrior" attitude that prevailed in this select group, that
lies on the part of any of them would have been highly unlikely.  Anyone
caught doing something like that would have been totally disgraced and
perhaps punished.  Their code was a rigid one.

David Thomas



From dvdthomas@aol.com Fri Jan  3 09:48:31 PST 1997
Article: 25735 of soc.history.war.world-war-ii
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: soc.history.war.world-war-ii
Subject: Re: Number of aces in Germany
Date: 3 Jan 1997 08:42:42 -0500
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>Contrast Oesau's record with that of a famous but middle of the pack ace
>(comparable to Oesau) of the USAAF:  Chuck Yeager.  He was credited with
>11.5 air victories in 58 missions.  On only six of those missions did he
>encounter enemy aircraft.  On one mission, he accounted for five
Luftwaffe
>fighters.  How many enemy planes might he have shot down had he flown
>1,400 missions, encountering enemy aircraft on 800 of them, as Hartmann
>did?  If his kill rate remained the same as for his six encounters with
>the enemy (granted unlikely) he would have gotten 1,533 victories.

Not a bad rate, but the following example may be the best batting average
of all time.  According to Toliver and Constable, Lt. Guenther Scheel flew
71 missions and brought down 70 enemy planes.

Another post here was asking about the highest kill totals in one day,
which was Emil Lang with 18.  However, Maj. Erich Rudorffer brought down
13 in a single mission on 6 November 1943.  That's milking your ammo
supply and doing some damned fine shooting.

Regards,
David Thomas



From dvdthomas@aol.com Fri Jan  3 20:37:54 PST 1997
Article: 25752 of soc.history.war.world-war-ii
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: soc.history.war.world-war-ii
Subject: Re: Rating Generals in WWII:Bad and good
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John Gilks wrote:

>Most overrated:
>........
>Patton (ditto)

Have to disagree here. I have no idea how he would have performed at
higher levels, but he brought to his commands the same thing that
Stonewall Jackson used to give the Confederates a stunning string of
victories--a relentless drive to pursue the enemy and defeat him by
lightning moves and unexpected maneuvers, culminating in a furious assault
and rout.  The thing which allows a risk-taker to winnow victory from
multiple disastrous possibilities that he himself has created is to never
hesitate, never second guess yourself (swing through the ball).  Stay on
the attack at all times with all that you've got.  That seemed to be
Patton's method, though I don't recall his dwelling on my comparison.

Another element that enabled the success of the driving attack for both
was personal bravery that dictated leading from the front, not the rear. 
Cost Jackson his life (which arguably lost the war for the Confederates)
but George was luckier, for a while at least.

Zhukov has been mentioned only incidentally in this thread, and I think he
had a lot to do with getting the frightened and nearly defeated Russian
forces back in order and on the attack.  Of course, as noted elsewhere, he
had one hell of an incentive--a death sentence on hold pending the outcome
of his efforts.  No motivation seminars needed for this boy!

A study of what Mannstein did with what he had and what he was up against
will often raise the esteem for this brilliant leader who fought in what
was, for the West, the "forgotten war."

Best wishes,
David Thomas



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Newsgroups: soc.history.war.world-war-ii
Subject: Re: Rating Generals in WWII:Bad and good
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Jay wrote:

>> Eisenhower would be good perhaps not as a tactical person, but as an
>>organizer and over all leader he was second to no one. Imagine dealing
>>with Monty and Patton!!
>
>This kind of talent is too often overlooked.

Eisenhower was selected specifically because of his abilities as a
mediator and politician, something that later efforts underscored.  I have
never thought of him as a combat general, but my knowledge of his actions
in WWII is too limited to make any assertions.  Normandy would seem to be
his major claim to great generalship, if Normandy was indeed as brilliant
a move as our victor's history tends to portray it as.

If administrative and political talents are the measure, then certainly
George C. Marshall has to be on the list, but opinions in this thread seem
to lean in the direction of combat zone leadership.  (Same things could be
said of Admiral King.)

My vote for overrated, with no rancor and no denigration, would go to Omar
Bradley.  However, his retiring personality did much to allow his acclaim
at the time to slip into relative obscurity, so he and human nature took
care of it before my opinion came along.  Perhaps he too was more of a
politician than a strategist or tactician.  And I think he did an
excellent administrative job.

Regards,
David Thomas



From dvdthomas@aol.com Fri Jan  3 20:37:55 PST 1997
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: soc.history.war.world-war-ii
Subject: Re: Favorite Quote
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>NUTS
>
>uttered, I believe, by the commander of the 101st Airborn at Bastogne, when
>asked to surrender by the besieging German forces.

Correct.  And I've read that the Germans were also impressed by the spirit
of the reply.  Contrary to the many bad portrayals of them as jackbooted
beasts, they fought with a sense of honor from an older time, and
respected courage shown by their opponents.  As in the Civil War, an
opponent they captured who had demonstrated great personal bravery was
given a very civil reception on his trip into captivity.



From dvdthomas@aol.com Sun Jan  5 02:15:00 PST 1997
Article: 25818 of soc.history.war.world-war-ii
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: soc.history.war.world-war-ii
Subject: Re: Strategic Bombing Effectiveness
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>No question, German armaments production went up in
>1944, but would it not have gone up more if the workers
>and factories had been spared?  And, given the fact
>that most of those fighters never left the ground due
>to fuel and pilot shortages, couldn't that figure be
>construed as a double loss to the German war effort?
>
>Ed Frank

You're correct in the first observation, but your also correct second one
renders the first a moot point.  (I'm learning in these exchanges, don't
have an agenda, as my sometimes too brief comments might imply.)  I think
my initial point was that the bombing didn't cripple production, it had
little to do with the pilot shortage, and I can't speak for the fuel
situation except to say that it was a problem before the bombing began, so
if I had to bet....

Thanks for your comments.

David




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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
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Subject: Re: Favorite Quote
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"Bomber" Harris, the British general in charge of their air war over
Europe was stopped one day in England for speeding.  The policeman
(bobby?) who pulled him over admonished him to remember that he could kill
someone driving that way.  Harris looked up in muted amazement, and in
proper British tones said, "My dear man, they _pay_ me to kill people."

Another that is not going to be an exact quote (I think it was in the
movie, but have also read it in one of Farago's books) is roughly as
follows:

"Brad, there's a hell of a lot of static on this line, I can't hear a word
you're saying."

George Patton, on receiving a call from Omar Bradley ordering him not to
take an action he had already set in motion.  He then hung up.

David Thomas




From dvdthomas@aol.com Sun Jan  5 02:15:02 PST 1997
Article: 25828 of soc.history.war.world-war-ii
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Subject: Re: Target selection for A-bomb
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Mike,

Thanks for the references on the decision making process and the racial
aspects of the war.

>....Thus, no matter what decision 
>Truman et al made, racism can explain it.  I suggest you look elsewhere
for 
>your explanation of why the US dropped the Bomb.

I thought that was what I was doing. :-)

Best regards,
David




From dvdthomas@aol.com Sun Jan  5 02:15:02 PST 1997
Article: 25830 of soc.history.war.world-war-ii
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: soc.history.war.world-war-ii
Subject: Re: Number of aces in Germany
Date: 5 Jan 1997 05:15:26 GMT
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Bruce Rennie wrote:

>I have read that Marseille destroyed 17 fighters on a single day: 2
Spitfires
>and 15 P-40's. Questions: Is this the single best day score? Has anyone
>done better?

He did have 17 kills in one day, but I don't know the types of aircraft. 
August Lambert also had 17, but the top man was Emil Lang, with 18.

Regarding the quote you listed in your post:

>: 2) Luftwaffe kill levels are questionable based on overclaims that were

>: noted in some campaigns.  Eg. In the Battle of Britain the Luftwaffe 
>: claimed something like 5 times the number of aircraft shot down than
were 
>: actually lost by the RAF.  The RAF claimed roughly double.  In one case

>: in the Mediterranean, the pilot, Hans Joachim Marseille IIRC, claimed
10 
>: Spitfires shot down on a day when none were flying.

I frankly do not believe that Marseille made this claim, anywhere at any
time.  Among other things, he would have needed a witness to each one.  In
addition, lying to this degree is unimagineable for a top Luftwaffe
fighter pilot, which he certainly was.  They just didn't do things that
way, especially a man whose family background and tradition was military
service.  What is possible to believe is that the German propaganda
machine made such a claim, but even they wouldn't have credited them to
Marseille, who had a dismal beginning to what went on to become an
outstanding service record. His kill claims for the _entire_ Battle of
Britain amounted to only 3 of the 7 he probably downed.  Since there were
no witnesses for 4 of them, due to his tendency to veer off by himself,
they were not counted.

The requirement for a witness and the certainty of destruction were not
relaxed when the war entered its final stages, and for the last year it is
more likely that the kill records were significantly understated.  Since
there were so few German planes in the skies, due to shortages of pilots
and fuel, many if not most of the actions were undertaken by lone
aircraft.  No witness, no kill.  They recorded unwitnessed kills when
reported, just for drill, and you see numbers between 30 and 40 frequently
for these, which are given as "probables" despite the continued
requirement for positive confirmation of destruction.  The Luftwaffe was
extremely rigid and conservative in its procedures for kill credits.

Regards,
David Thomas




From dvdthomas@aol.com Sun Jan  5 11:42:41 PST 1997
Article: 91085 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A Letter About The Holocaust by Ken Blewitt
Date: 5 Jan 1997 10:32:54 GMT
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Don't know who wrote this line, doesn't matter for the illustration I'd
like to make.

>How did Faurisson (I believe this is the correct spelling, which you
>consistently mangle,

and the rest of the suddenly become pretentious sentence:

>which leads me to believe you haven't so much as
>had the actual pamphlet in your hands know about this "amazing"
>relevation [that none of the camps on German soil had been
>extermination camps]?

If you have ever wanted to see a textbook relevation of someone being
"hoisted on his own petard," this is it, albeit on an stature-challenged
petard.

Everybody makes typos, everybody has a few words they mispell or an
internal reading voice that craps all over correct punctuation.  If it's
consistent, it's style.  If it's random, it's normal.  Elevate that
dudgeon a bit.  If you can't manage wit, at least sneak up in sight of the
sonofabitch.  Nothing personal.

Crticisms of grammar and spelling are a HUGE waste of time, and impress no
one save the senders of same, and you'd hope that isn't really true.

David Thomas
_________________________________________________________

"He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me."
-in those who harbor such thoughts hatred will never cease.
"He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me."
-in those who do not harbor such thoughts hatred will cease.
For hatred does not cease by hatred at any time: hatred ceases by love, this is an old rule.

>From  the Twin Verses of the Dhammapada

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Sun Jan  5 11:42:42 PST 1997
Article: 91095 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Zyklon B / Carbon monoxide comparison
Date: 5 Jan 1997 11:00:11 GMT
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 Lastly, CO is not the only factor in causing death; lack of 
   oxygen in the exhaust is another one, and so are other poisonous
   gases present in the exhaust, such as NO2.

-Danny Keren.

Lack of oxygen in diesel exhaust???  Daniel, you know as much about
engines as you do about other technical matters you attempt to address. 
The limit approaches zero.  And in your ignorance you persist in braying
out "liar" like a mantra.  Jeez, get a clue guy.

David
_________________________________________________________

"He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me."
-in those who harbor such thoughts hatred will never cease.
"He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me."
-in those who do not harbor such thoughts hatred will cease.
For hatred does not cease by hatred at any time: hatred ceases by love, this is an old rule.

>From  the Twin Verses of the Dhammapada

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Sun Jan  5 11:42:43 PST 1997
Article: 91117 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hate Crimes- Will You Do The Extra Time?
Date: 5 Jan 1997 10:55:51 GMT
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Andy Walton gives some comparisons of "hate crime" laws to existing
combined offenses laws already on the books, making the point that the
concept of speech being part of what is called a hate crime is no
different than what exists, and does not constitute restriction of free
speech.  It is this erroneous comparison that I wish to address, not
anything else in the thread.

Examples are given such as running over someone (little old lady or stone
fox, doesn't matter) while fleeing a bank robbery (a felony offense).  If
one commits a secondary crime while in the process of committing a
separate serious (felony) crime, then the secondary (incidental) crime
status is elevated to a higher level of offense than if it were committed
independently, without regard for intent, or culpability as it is normally
interpreted.  In other words, if you hit the little old lady in a manner
that might normally only result in a charge of involuntary manslaughter,.
the concurrent serious crime can cause that to be elevated to a murder
charge.  The intent is to say that if you engage in reckless behavior
outside the law, then any and all damages which occur are deemed to be
your fault.  Two crimes committed together will elevate the penalty.  One
crime escalates the penalty for a concurrent second one.

Note that hate crime laws state that if you commit a crime against someone
and exhibit one of several actions designated as de facto evidence of hate
held for that individual or their ethnic group (politically incorrect
speech being one of the factos) then the normal sentence for the crime
itself is increased.  But this increase is not based on the same criteria
described in the last paragraph.  Hate crimes are not based on a serious
crime elevating the punishment for another committed during the process of
another crime.  Instead of two crimes, you have a crime as the base, and
speech as the elevator.  The analogy doesn't work unless speech itself is
deemed a crime.

Odd that no one wants to address this clear example of how "hate crimes'
transmogrify themselves into speech crimes and thought crimes

But there's a vital
_________________________________________________________

"He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me."
-in those who harbor such thoughts hatred will never cease.
"He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me."
-in those who do not harbor such thoughts hatred will cease.
For hatred does not cease by hatred at any time: hatred ceases by love, this is an old rule.

>From  the Twin Verses of the Dhammapada

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Sun Jan  5 11:42:43 PST 1997
Article: 91118 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Zyklon B / Carbon monoxide comparison
Date: 5 Jan 1997 11:11:24 GMT
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Mark Van Alstine wrote:

>The SS at Auschwitz
>didn't  need to constantly shoot the numerous gassing victims who
survived
>either, as there was only two instance, to my knowledge, of a victim
>"surviving" a gassing with Zyklon B. One was a Russian POW in the gassing
>of 900 Russian POWs and Polish prisoners in Block 11. The Nazis simply
>tossed in more Zyklon B and closed the door again. He died.

Mark, this makes as much sense as did your rationalization of the jagged
holes in the steel reinforced concrete roof of the extensions on the
crematoriums at Auschwitz which were obviously punched through the
finished roof rather than building them in to begin with.  You argued then
that lumber was scarce and building forms took time, therefore it may have
been more efficient to simply cast the (foot thick) slab roof and put the
holes in afterward.  With that degree of knowledge of how hard it is to do
what you suggest, you couldn't get a job on a construction site carrying a
water bucket around.  Ask someone who works with concrete and watch for
the incredulous look in their eyes.

Your suggestion above that the 15+ minute procedure would be repeated and
the process held up instead of delivering a coup de grace with pistol for
one person makes just as much sense as the concrete explanation.

Both are not just erroneous, and they are too far out to be called lies. 
They're dumb, that's all.

Regards,
David Thomas
_________________________________________________________

"He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me."
-in those who harbor such thoughts hatred will never cease.
"He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me."
-in those who do not harbor such thoughts hatred will cease.
For hatred does not cease by hatred at any time: hatred ceases by love, this is an old rule.

>From  the Twin Verses of the Dhammapada

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Mon Jan  6 06:52:13 PST 1997
Article: 91359 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Typical 'letter to the editor'
Date: 6 Jan 1997 08:47:44 GMT
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Without the United States Israel would never have been in
existance. And since it has come to exist, it wouldn't have continued
on like it has without the United States playing the spoiling nanny to
the little brat in the stroller.--Tom Moran

I rather more prefer the analogy Yasir the Handsome used once, I think it
may have been after the U.S.S. Liberty debacle--"Ah!  Your pet weasel has
teeth, does it not?"

The preceding is not a verbatim quote, but it catches the drift of the
original.

David
_________________________________________________________

"He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me."
-in those who harbor such thoughts hatred will never cease.
"He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me."
-in those who do not harbor such thoughts hatred will cease.
For hatred does not cease by hatred at any time: hatred ceases by love, this is an old rule.

>From  the Twin Verses of the Dhammapada

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Mon Jan  6 06:52:14 PST 1997
Article: 91392 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Typical Unsigned Editorial
Date: 5 Jan 1997 20:38:15 GMT
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A groundless retort from Hilary Ostrov to Tom Moran:

>Btw, you seem to have a problem with "unsigned editorials."  If you
>were to actually _read_ newspapers, Li'l Tommy, you would discover
>that most (if not all) editorials are unsigned - even when (like most
>of them) they are not written by those wascally Jooooos

His words, assuming you read them, take exception to the editorial itself,
not the fact that it's unsigned.  What, exactly, do you base that
statement on?

David


_________________________________________________________

"He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me."
-in those who harbor such thoughts hatred will never cease.
"He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me."
-in those who do not harbor such thoughts hatred will cease.
For hatred does not cease by hatred at any time: hatred ceases by love, this is an old rule.

>From  the Twin Verses of the Dhammapada

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Mon Jan  6 06:52:14 PST 1997
Article: 91393 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Typical 'letter to the editor'
Date: 6 Jan 1997 14:23:17 GMT
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Mark Van Alstine wrote:

>> United States aid to Israel is a recent phenomenon. 
>
>A "recent phenomenon?" The Moran(tm) should get a clue (for once). The
>U.S. State Department _officially_ announced arms sales to Isreal as far
>back as 1962

and

>> >       United States aid to Israel is a recent phenomenon. Israel does
>> >not exist because of United States policy nut despite it.
>> 
>>         Thoroughly idiotic insult to any reader. 
>
>Now the Moran(tm) is attacking his own posts? Okaaaay....

Someone needs a clue all right, and that someone is Mark.

Tom Moran posted a letter to the editor written by someone named Avi
Deitcher, which the New York Times published on December 31, 1996.  He
posted this letter without comment, aside from the title.  The letter
written by Mr. Deitcher makes a case (with several false assertions) that
the U.S. has not been particularly friendly to Israel at crucial times in
her history, rather, Israel has stood alone without the help of the U.S.
at those times and exists now not because of U.S. policies, but in spite
of them.

In the first quoted exchange above, the top line is from the letter by
Deitcher.  Mark takes entirely correct exception to its content, and does
so in a snide manner because he's under the entirely incorrect assumption
that the line was written by Tom Moran.

In the second exchange, Mr. Van Alstine is responding to a criticism of
Deitcher's letter by someone that does not appear to be Mr. Moran, with
the same tone, based on his own continued mistaken impression about
sources.  Whether or not source of the critique ("..idiotic insult...") is
or is not Moran, the words being criticized are not Moran's, so Van
Alstine's spleen is once again spewed at a phantom born of his unreasoning
dislike of someone he never met.

>> Israel does not exist because of United States policy (b)ut despite it.
>> 
>>                                                    Avi Deitcher
>
>Despite what nuts like the Moran(tm) might think, Israel exists because
of
>Israeli determination to defend their people, their land, and because of
>their military prowess on the battlefield. And, of course, picking the
>right Superpower, as their patron.
>
>My, ain't dem wascally Jooos a smart bunch or what? 

Here Mr. Van Alstine continues to address Avi Deitcher's words (with
signature attached, yet!) under the apparent impression that it's Tom
Moran.  In this case he's agreeing and disagreeing with Deitcher in the
same paragraph.

In the other attacking comments Van Alstine directed to the Deitcher/Moran
mirage, he properly dismantles Deitcher's assertions that the U.S.
provided no weapons to Israel at certain times.  Then he finishes by
agreeing with the spirit of the message Deitcher was trying to convey
(Israel's independent defense of itself) then contradicting its central
point (that Israel did this independently of a superpower (the U.S.).

>My, ain't dem wascally Jooos a smart bunch or what? 

These are Mark Van Alstine's eloquent words.  I'm afraid that in his case,
at least in this instance, the conclusion must be "or what?".

Somehow this reminds me of a dog barking at someone who's wearing a mask,
except here the mask was in the dog's imagination. That's what hate will
do for you.  Even (maybe especially) "good" hate, another figment of the
imagination.

Regards,
David Thomas
_________________________________________________________

"He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me."
-in those who harbor such thoughts hatred will never cease.
"He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me."
-in those who do not harbor such thoughts hatred will cease.
For hatred does not cease by hatred at any time: hatred ceases by love, this is an old rule.

>From  the Twin Verses of the Dhammapada

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Wed Jan  8 16:18:31 PST 1997
Article: 91832 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Typical Unsigned Editorial
Date: 6 Jan 1997 15:31:32 GMT
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Yale writes:

>He also repeats several times that it was "unsigned" which is the 
>standard procedure for newpaper editorials.

This is a comment on Hilary's assertion that Tom Moran was making a big
deal out of the fact that an editorial in the New York Times was
"unsigned".  I think the inference was that all routine editorials
produced by the staff of a paper are unsigned and that Tom was too
ignorant to know that and perhaps attached some mysterious significance to
the fact.

Please note that he initiated at least three threads of this nature. 
Typical letter to the editor, typical news report, and typical unsigned
editorial.  "Unsigned editorial" is simply the name he chose to designate,
correctly, one of the several items that can be found on an editorial
page.  An unsigned editorial can also be called a staff editorial if you
wish.  Both identify it as having come from the staff of the paper, and
not an outside soure, since all guest editorials must be signed to
separate their opinions from the papers', with which the guest may well be
in disagreement.  So, if I wanted to make sure that someone knew that the
text I was referring to was from the staff, just calling it an "editorial"
doesn't clarify its source. Calling it an "unsigned editorial" does. 
Well, maybe it doesn't if readers are responding with preestablished bias
against the writer (of the post, not the unsigned editorial.--This
clarification is necessary because of a phenomenon you'll see here from
time to time.  Anonymous posts are greeted with the alarm that might be
shown by a flock of white leghorn chickens who just caught sight of a
black-feathered bird entering the coop.  Much clucking and ado over the
mysterious stanger, alarm about they know not what--but focus on people
instead of ideas is another topic.  Or maybe it's not.)

Best regards,
David
_________________________________________________________

"He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me."
-in those who harbor such thoughts hatred will never cease.
"He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me."
-in those who do not harbor such thoughts hatred will cease.
For hatred does not cease by hatred at any time: hatred ceases by love, this is an old rule.

>From  the Twin Verses of the Dhammapada

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Thu Jan  9 08:38:34 PST 1997
Article: 91939 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Typical Unsigned Editorial
Date: 8 Jan 1997 10:35:56 GMT
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>From  Hilary:

>>But you know, when I'm puzzled by someone's remarks and have an honest
>>interest in knowing what they meant, I find it best to just ask them. 
[...]
>
>Actually, Mr. Thomas, in the post with which you seem to find such
>fault, I _did_  in fact ask Moran the question.  Perhaps in your haste
>to make your point you missed it.  So for those who have flakey
>servers - and at the risk of incurring Mr. Thomas' further scorn for
>my failure to conserve bandwidth - here is the relevant text (and
>context) from my post:
>
>(some of the relevance omitted because it's not relevant to this point)
>
>> We can take note that the unsigned editorial ends up on a 'evil
>>Palestinian' note.
>
>You and yourself can "take note of" whatever you want, Li'l Tommy.
>But (sorry, I know you don't like that word) where on earth do you see
>the  'evil Palestinian' note?  Are you fantacizing again? Tsk. Tsk.
>Tsk

That's not a question, Hilary, it's a baiting insult, and unwarranted at
that.  As pointed out in my previous post, Arafat was being given the
blame for what is primarily an Israeli produced problem.

It's been mentioned in passing in this forum before, but the topics of
this discussion group are, for me, a secondary interest having to do with
the larger topic of Zionism.  One good side note of posting to this thread
has been the start of a productive private discussion of the broader view
with a person on this thread who holds opinions quite opposite my own on
major points of both subjects.  Our exchanges have been without personal
attacks or insult, and guess what?  We don't appear to be all that
different in our views of some of the basic human values. Interesting what
civil discourse can reveal. Maybe the correspondent can help me understand
a few things more clearly.  Maybe I can return the favor.  Stranger things
have happened, and do here all the time.

Best wishes,
David
_________________________________________________________

"He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me."
-in those who harbor such thoughts hatred will never cease.
"He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me."
-in those who do not harbor such thoughts hatred will cease.
For hatred does not cease by hatred at any time: hatred ceases by love, this is an old rule.

>From  the Twin Verses of the Dhammapada

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Thu Jan  9 13:29:09 PST 1997
Article: 91969 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Typical Unsigned Editorial
Date: 6 Jan 1997 14:52:26 GMT
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>From  Hilary:

>Perhaps you would also care to explain the
>'evil Palestinian note' as in:
>
>> We can take note that the unsigned editorial ends up on a 'evil
>>Palestinian' note.
>
>that Moran seems to have found in:
>
>>> By delaying a Hebron agreement over these two issues, Mr.Arafat
>>>is postponing further steps toward peace and giving fanatics on both
>>>sides more time to do their worst." 

You're kidding, right?  Or maybe you're not.  Whatever.

Israel made an agreement on Hebron and has found the normal sequence of
excuses to drag feet interminably, during which time and process Netanyahu
and company held forth the usual series of justifications to begin to
alter the original agreement, one item at a time.  These collective
changes will then be shoved down the Palestinian's throats via the normal
(though I hate to use that word) ploy of making them feel damned lucky to
get anything at all.  Hold the promised food from a starving group long
enough, and they'll finally settle for rancid scraps.  

So now, after months, hell, years, of repeats of this brazen, shameless
and transparent Israeli tactic of delay and screw, the New York Times in
its all-knowing majesty discreetly snips the jackass tail of
responsibility off Netanyahu's behind, and pins it on Arafat in the
conclusion to this editorial.  That's like blaming survivors looting the
wreckage of a war zone for the damage done by the passing armies.

And that's what Mr. Moran meant, in my opinion.  I didn't ask him, it just
seems casual to the obvious observer.

But you know, when I'm puzzled by someone's remarks and have an honest
interest in knowing what they meant, I find it best to just ask them. 
Maybe say, "It could be I'm missing something, Farquhar, but I just can't
follow this passage.  Could you elaborate a little bit?"

Of course, if your intent is only to belittle and ridicule, this isn't
necessary, and a series of cutesy sneering comments are in order.  But I
don't need to explain that one.

Regards,
David
_________________________________________________________

"He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me."
-in those who harbor such thoughts hatred will never cease.
"He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me."
-in those who do not harbor such thoughts hatred will cease.
For hatred does not cease by hatred at any time: hatred ceases by love, this is an old rule.

>From  the Twin Verses of the Dhammapada

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Fri Jan 10 17:42:43 PST 1997
Article: 92082 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: DThomas's reply to J.McCarthy, 1 of 2
Date: 10 Jan 1997 17:39:33 GMT
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Jamie McCarthy writes:

>DThomas,
>
>It appears this must be one of the "matters in which [you] have both
>interest and knowledge," which you told us on Dec. 11 that you would
>consider debating.

That's a too large first mouthful, let me clarify it a bit.  I have an
interest in the subject of gassings, some knowledge of the chemistry and
mechanics involved, but no depth of knowledge about diesels.  As you
clearly note in your response to my comments to Dan Keren, I relied
largely on information from writings by Fritz Berg.  You present lengthy
refutations to those which I will try to address, but not in the same
scope as your large post.  Some points I'm going to be able to reply to
quickly, others will require some research, and this will determine the
order of address.

>I do hope you stick with this and see it through.  I would hate to get
>involved in a civil debate with you, and then have to watch the response
>be silence, or changing the subject.  That's very frustrating for me.

Well that's mighty white of you, and I'll see what I can do to not let you
down, given the sacrifice involved in being civil. :-) Which you are, by
the way, except for the comment noted.  I respect your effort in this
regard and will respond accordingly.

>> (and also take exception to your
>> description of him as a "Holocaust-denier"),
>
>Well, since you bring it up, I'll ask you the same question I
>recently asked your colleague Richard Widmann.
>
>Bradley Smith tells us, at :
>
>   For half a century the gas chambers have been at the heart of the
>   holocaust story. The two are absolutely inseperable. No gas
>   chambers, no holocaust. That's the equation.
>
>My interpretation of "the two are absolutely inseparable;  no gas
>chambers, no Holocaust" is that to deny one is to deny the other. Thus,
>strictly speaking, according to Smith -- since Berg denies the gas
>chambers, he denies the Holocaust.  Do you agree with my reasoning,
>and if not why not?

This area is a semantic game.  Here are some of the elements involved:

(1)  The facts and reasonable conclusions based on them which describe
what we know and can know regarding the treatment of Jewish captives by
the government of the Third Reich.  By this I mean the historical record,
which is incomplete in many areas.

(2)  A stylized version of (1) which includes as much emotional content as
it does factual, and attempts to focus on the mystery and evil of events
in a near mystic way.  It has become a quasi-religious body of fact and
conjecture which was dubbed The Holocaust in fairly recent times.  I
believe that "holocaust" is a word used to distinguish between ordinary
burnt offerings to G-d which are only partly consumed by the fire (and
presumably utilized for food afterward) and those offered for more
important occasions, which are consumed entirely by the fire.  The
connection appears to be the bodies of gassing victims being consumed
completely by the fires of the Krema, this equating to a holocaust
offering to G-d.  (I am intending my spelling of that last word to be
respectful of common useage by religious adherents.  If I err, correction
would be appreciated.  Knowledge of religious practices isn't one of my
long suits either.)

Attempted discussions of the historical record as described in (1), which
contain no degree of controversy for most other topics, are almost always
immediately characterized by detractors as involving (2), and a great deal
of controversy enters the picture.  This is because the context of a valid
discussion of facts, their accuracy and interpretations, is converted to
an issue of challenging elements of a religious belief.  Logic and faith
are not resolvable, by definition, and endless argument and emotional
reactions are the inevitable outcome of attempts to do so.

(Just hit the size limit, have to continue this as a Part 2)

Sincerely,
David


From dvdthomas@aol.com Sat Jan 11 10:39:32 PST 1997
Article: 92262 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: DThomas's reply to J.McCarthy, 1 of 2
Date: 11 Jan 1997 11:09:53 GMT
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Gord McFee wrote:

>A correction would be appreciated.  To write it G-d implies that the
>usage in this newsgroup follows some Jewish convention.  That is wrong
>and ill-advised for a multitude of reasons.  You and I both know that
>the huge majority of believers in a supreme being refer to him as God,
>and not as G-d.

Thanks for the comments, I thought maybe it was between unnecessary and
silly at the time, but I don't write much about religious practices of any
sort and figured I'd err on the side of courtesy.  Don't know what
correction could be done other than to acknowledge inputs such as yours
and go with a consensus, if there is one.  Minor matter anyway, I suppose
(was that flash outside lightning?  on a clear night??).

David


From dvdthomas@aol.com Sun Jan 12 06:34:18 PST 1997
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Nazilabeling
Date: 11 Jan 1997 18:09:14 GMT
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>From  an online discussion group.  Appears to be missing text in a few
spots, but makes its points quite well anyway.

David Thomas

#######################

Nazifying the Germans
Ralph Raico

(.........................................................................
.................  Originally published:
CHRONICLES (Rockford, Ill.), January 1997, pp. 15-17.  Permission
to reprint, comments, etc., should be addressed to Mr. Theodore
Pappas, Managing Editor, Chronicles, 934 North Main Street,
Rockford, IL 61103)

 Not long ago a German friend remarked to me, jokingly, that he imagined
the only things American college students were apt to associate with
Germany nowadays were beer, Lederhosen, and the Nazis.  I replied that,
basically, there was only one thing that  Americans, whether college
students or not, associated with Germany.  When the Germans are
mentioned, it is Nazism that first springs to mind; whatever else may
occur to one later will be colored and contaminated by thoughts of the
Nazis.  When Molly Ivins (described by Justin Raimondo, in his new book,
Colin Powell and the Power Elite, as a "liberal columnist and known
plagiarist") remarked, of Pat Buchanan's  speech at the 1992 Republican
convention, "it sounded better in the original German," everyone
instantly knew what she meant.  The casual slander was picked up by
William Safire and others, and made the rounds.  A constant din from
Hollywood and the major media has helped instruct us on what "German"
really stands for. 20
 And yet, as some Germans plaintively insist, there are fifteen
centuries of history "on the other side" of the Third Reich.  In
cultural terms, it is a not unimpressive record (in which the Austrians
must be counted; at least until 1866, Austria was as much a part of the
German lands as Bavaria or Saxony).  From printing to the automobile to
the creation of whole branches of science, the German contribution to
European civilization has been, one might say, rather significant.
Albertus Magnus, Luther, Leibniz, Kant, Goethe, Humboldt, Ranke,
Nietzsche, Carl Menger, Max Weber-these are not negligible figures in
the history of thought.  And then, of course, there's the music.
The German role over centuries in transmitting advanced culture to the
peoples to the east and south was critical at certain stages of their
development.  The Hungarian liberal, Gaspar M. Tamas, speaking for his
own people, the Czechs, and others, wrote of the Germans who had lived
among them and were driven out in 1945, that their "ancestors built our
cathedrals, monasteries, universities, and railway stations."  As for
our country, the highly laudatory chapter that Thomas Sowell devotes to
the German immigrants in Ethnic America is one of the best in a
fascinating book.  More than five million Germans came to the United
States in the nineteenth century alone (according to recent census
figures, around fifty-seven million Americans now claim to be of German
heritage).  Together with the descendants of the immigrants from the
British Isles, the Germans form the basic American stock. They were
highly valued as neighbors, and their ways were woven into the fabric of
American life-the Christmas tree and "Silent Night," for instance, and
the family-centered Sunday, with its "jovial yet orderly activities," as
an admiring contemporary put it.  Is there any doubt that when Germans
composed the leading population in hundreds of American cities and
towns, these were happier places to live in than many of them are today?
Yet the air is filled with incessant harping on an interval of twelve
years in the annals of this ancient European race.  In the normal course
of things, one would expect a countervailing defense to emanate from
Germany itself.  But it is precisely there, among the left
intelligentsia, that many of the prime German-haters are to be found.
The reasons for this are fairly clear.
Over the last decades, these intellectuals have grown increasingly
frustrated at their own people, who remain firmly bourgeois and
order-loving, with little interest in neo-Marxist transformations of
their way of life.  Increasingly, too, that frustration has been vented
in hatred and contempt for everything German.  Most of all, the Germans
were condemned for their hopelessly misguided past and bourgeois social
structure, which supposedly produced Nazism.  Anguished complaints like
that from the conservative historian Michael StFCrmer, that "we cannot =
live while continually pulverizing ourselves and our own history into
nothing, while we make that history into a permanent source of infinite
feelings of guilt," were merely further evidence that the Germans stood
in dire need of radical reeducation. 20
A large segment of the left intelligentsia made no bones of its sympathy
for the "German Democratic Republic," which at least did not enslave its
subjects to consumerism and the "elbow society" prevalent in the west.
Naturally, there were certain excesses, but these could be explained by
the pressures issuing from Bonn and Washington.  For these
intellectuals, the GDR dictatorship-kept in existence by Soviet tanks,
and forced to resort to building a wall to keep its subjects in-was a
"normal state"; they denounced any attempts to "destabilize" it, even by
the forthright expression of anti-Communist opinion ("primitive
anti-Communism," it was called).  They spoke warmly of Communism's
"humanistic values" and "positive core," which sharply distinguished it
>from  National Socialism (in this way, they exhibited a characteristic
failing of intellectuals: preferring to look to theory rather than
reality). 20
 The German left's "march through the institutions" after 1968 was
spectacularly successful in the media, schools and universities,
churches, and more and more in politics.  Its control of the cultural
infrastructure produced a situation where the public declaration of any
pro-German attitude was viewed as evidence of Rechtsradikalismus.  Some
thirty years ago, when Israeli Prime Minister Levi Eshkol, at a dinner
in Jerusalem, expressed to Konrad Adenauer his confidence that "under
your leadership the German people will return to the community of
civilized peoples," the old Chancellor retorted: "Mr. Prime Minister,
what you think is of no concern to me...I represent the German people.
You have insulted them, and so tomorrow morning I shall depart."   It is
impossible to imagine any recent German leader, in particular, the
lickspittle former Federal President Richard von WeizsE4cker, =
e Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung and the excellent German conservative
magazine, CriticF3n,  by Alfred de Zayas, an American historian and =
jurist and respected authority on international law.  Whenever
anti-Semitic attitudes or acts are mentioned, de Zayas observes,
Goldhagen speaks of "the Germans"-not "the Nazis," or even "many
Germans"-offering no justification at all; it is simply a polemical
trick.  He neglects to mention well-known facts, e. g., that everyone
connected with the killing of the Jews was bound by FFChrer Order No. =
1, as well as by special orders from Himmler, mandating the strictest
silence, under penalty of death.  So it should not be surprising that,
for example, the former Chancellor Helmut Schmidt, during the war a
Luftwaffe officer, testified that he had never heard or known anything
of the annihilation of the Jews; or that Countess DF6nhoff, publisher =
of the liberal paper, Die Zeit, should state that, despite her
connections to many key people during the war, she knew nothing of the
mass-killings in the camps, and that "I heard the name 'Auschwitz' for
the first time after the war."  Goldhagen simply disregards major
standard works that contradict his thesis.  He claims, for example, that
the German people approved of and joined in the Kristallnacht in a kind
of nation-wide Volksfest.  Yet Sarah Gordon, in her authoritative
Hitler, Germans, and the "Jewish Question" wrote: "there was a torrent
of reports indicating public disapproval of Kristallnacht?[whatever the
motivation] what is not in doubt, however, is the fact that the majority
did disapprove?after Kristallnacht, the Nazis deliberately tried to
conceal their measures against the Jews?" 20
None of the scholarly critics made much of an impression on audiences
that witnessed the debates in the United States or during Goldhagen's
tour of Germany late last summer, and certainly not on sales of the
book.  In any case, most of them, except for de Zayas, overlooked the
function performed by a work such as Goldhagen's.  While he indicts the
nceal it?.At the railroad stations, city dwellers could see the
thousands of women and children who had fled from the villages and were
dying of hunger.  Kulaks, "dekulakized persons," and "kulak henchmen"
died alike.  They were not considered human.
 There has been no outcry for the Russian people to seek atonement and
no one speaks of their "eternal guilt."  It goes without saying that the
misdeeds of Communism, in Russia, China, or elsewhere, are never debited
to internationalism and egalitarianism as those of Nazism are to
nationalism and racism.
Pointing to Communist crimes is not meant to "trivialize" the
destruction of European Jewry, nor can it do so.  The massacre of the
Jews was one of the worst things that ever happened.  But even supposing
that it was the worst thing that ever happened, couldn't some
arrangement be worked out whereby Communist mass-murders are mentioned
once for every ten times (or hundred times?) the Holocaust is brought
up?  Perhaps also, if we must have publicly-financed museums
commemorating the foreign victims of foreign regimes, some memorial to
the victims of Communism might be considered, not on the Mall itself, of
course, but maybe in a low-rent area of Washington?
 If the crimes of Communism go relatively unmentioned, what are we to
say of crimes committed against Germans?  One of the most pernicious
legacies of Hitler, Stalin, and Mao is that any political leader
responsible for less than, say, three or four million deaths is let off
the hook.  This hardly seems right, and it was not always so.  In
fact-the reader may find this incredible-there was a time when American
conservatives took the lead in publicizing Allied, and especially
American, atrocities against Germans.  High-level journalists like
William Henry Chamberlin, in America's Second Crusade, and Freda Utley,
in The High Cost of Vengeance, pilloried those who had committed what
Utley called "our crimes against humanity"-the men who directed the
terror-bombing of the German cities, conspired in the expulsion of some
fifteen million Germans from their ancestral lands in the east (in the
course of which about two million died-see de Zayas's Nemesis at
Potsdam), and plotted the "final solution of the German question"
through the Morgenthau plan.  Utley even exposed the sham "Dachau
trials" of German soldiers and civilians in the first years of the
Allied occupation, detailing the use of methods "worthy of the GPU, the
Gestapo, and the SS" to extort confessions.  She insisted that the same
ethical standards had to be applied to victors and vanquished alike.  If
not, then we were declaring that "Hitler was justified in his belief
that 'might makes right.'"  Both books were brought out by the late
Henry Regnery, the last of the Old Right greats, whose house was the
bastion of post-World War II revisionism, publishing works like Charles
Callan Tansill's classic, Back Door to War.
Keeping the Nazi period constantly before our eyes serves the
ideological interests of a number of influential groups.  That it
benefits the Zionist cause, at least as many Zionists see it, is
obvious.  It is highly useful also to the advocates of a globalist
America.  Hitler and the crying need for the great crusade to destroy
him are the chief exhibits in their case against any form of American
"isolationism," past or present.  Any suggestion that our Soviet ally in
that crusade was guilty of even greater offenses than Nazi Germany, that
the United States government itself was incriminated in barbarous acts
during and in the aftermath of that war, must be downplayed or
suppressed, lest the historical picture grow too complex. 20
 The obsession with the never-ending guilt of the Germans also advances
the ends of those who look forward to the extinction of the nation-state
and national identity, at least for the West.  As the philosopher Robert
Maurer argues, it inculcates in the Germans "a permanent bad conscience,
and keeps them from developing any normal national self-awareness."   In
this way, it functions "as a model for the cosmopolitan supersession of
every nationalism," which many today are striving towards.
Ernst Nolte has recently suggested another strategy at work, aiming at
the same goal.  Nothing is clearer than that we are in the midst of a
vast campaign to delegitimize western civilization.  In this campaign,
Nolte writes, radical feminism joins with Third World anti-Occidentalism
and multiculturalism within the western nations "to instrumentalize to
the highest degree the 'murder of six millions Jews by the Germans,' and
to place it in the larger context of the genocides by the predatory and
conquering West, so that 'homo hitlerensis' ultimately appears as merely
a special case of 'homo occidentalis.'"  The purpose is to strike at
"the cultural and linguistic homogeneity of the national states,
achieved over centuries, and open the gates to a massive immigration,"
so that in the end the nations of the West should cease to exist. 20
There seem to be cultural dynamics operating that will intensify rather
than abate the present fixation.  Michael Wolffsohn, an Israeli-born Jew
who teaches modern history in Germany, has warned that Judaism is being
emptied of its religious content and linked solely to the tribulations
of the Jews through history, above all, the Holocaust.  More than one
commentator has noted that as the West loses any sense of morality
rooted in reason, tradition, or faith, yet still feels the need for some
secure moral direction, it increasingly finds it in the one acknowledged
"absolute evil," the Holocaust.  If these claims are true, then the
growing secularization of Judaism and  moral disarray of  our culture
will continue to make victims of the Germans and all the peoples of the
West. 20

Ralph Raico is professor of history at the State University of New York
College at Buffalo.    His Die Partei der Freiheit: Studien zur
Geschichte des deutschen Liberalismus aus liberaler Sicht will be
published next year in Cologne.  This essay is adapted from a talk
originally delivered at the 1996 conference of the Rothbard-Rockwell
Report, in San Mateo, California.20


From dvdthomas@aol.com Sun Jan 12 18:11:15 PST 1997
Article: 92494 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Opinion of what really happened (Was: Why is "Holocaust Denial" a bad thing
Date: 10 Jan 1997 16:52:15 GMT
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Regarding the exchange between Sara, Gordon and Ehrlich:

Sara's resembled a mink in the past few posts, and by that I don't mean a
smooth, furry exterior.  Sharp, quick bite.  Well, everybody gets in bad
moods, big deal.  But I absolutely would like to see some backup for that
statement about the WWI atrocity accusations against the Germans:

>  > >By the way, many of the worst "stories" circulated about the Huns
during
>  > >World War I (treatment of Belgians especially) turned out, after the
>  > fact,
>  > >to be fairly accurate.
>  > >
>  > >Sara

Please name one.  I don't think you can.  And remember, we're talking the
"worst"--cutting off children's hands, making soap out of bodies, catching
babies on bayonets and the like.  Which one of these discredited classics
are you referring to?

Gordon's use of Kaiser Wilhelm's quote to his troops leaving to battle in
1900 to justify Sara's use of "Huns" in the quote above is also a bit
beyond the pale.  A reach that long at a boardinghouse table would get you
at least three forks in the back of the offending hand.

David


From dvdthomas@aol.com Sun Jan 12 19:38:03 PST 1997
Article: 26019 of soc.history.war.world-war-ii
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: soc.history.war.world-war-ii
Subject: Re: Fastest Plane?
Date: 11 Jan 1997 17:18:11 GMT
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One of Germany's top test pilots, Hannah Ehrendt (I don't think the last
name is spelled correctly) flew the V1 when they were having
insurmountable control problems.  They cut a hole in the thing, rigged up
crude hand controls and she flew the flying bomb.  It crashed, she
survived, and told them what needed to be done to fix the problem.  No
speed records involved that I know of, but it seemed worthy of mention in
regard to the manned V2 query.  What guts the woman had.  Bet she'd have
volunteered to fly a V2 if it had been needed.

Best,
David Thomas



From dvdthomas@aol.com Mon Jan 13 07:14:00 PST 1997
Article: 92621 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Opinion of what really happened (Was: Why is "Holocaust Denial" a bad thing
Date: 11 Jan 1997 19:53:42 GMT
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Ehrlich wrote:

>Could you imagine driving around in a *1959 Attila?*

I had one of those, but they cleverly disguised it as a Pontiac.  A
lead-sled it was.

David


From dvdthomas@aol.com Wed Jan 15 13:54:00 PST 1997
Article: 93038 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: [Repost] Real Historians on Irving: Dennis E. Showalter
Date: 15 Jan 1997 15:37:25 GMT
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This post (from Nizkor and Graves) uses the comment about the trial as a
straw dog to try to distract from the fact that the supposed historical
criticism of Irving by the professor from Colorado is simply a Holocaust
motivated polemic.  The only watershed change from the Zuendel trial was
that what had always existed from the several sides of the issue simply
became more public.  Academically bigoted comments like those of Showalter
are old news.

I tend to agree with Prof. Craig (Stanford)--these attempts to discredit a
very competent researcher do a disservice to the discipline of history. 
That's what happens every time someone trots out their biases as reason.

David Thomas



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