The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Fred Leuchter (was Re: Revisionist answers)
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This is an excerpt from a speech Fred gave at the 1992 IHR conference.  
I got it from Greg's www site.  All I've left out is Fred's account of 
his English misadventures, which has little relevance to the topic under 
discussion.

In a day or two I'll post a summary of what Kirk Lyons told me about Fred's 
troubles with the prison officials.

                       Ross Vicksell
________________________________________________________________________

    IS THERE LIFE AFTER PERSECUTION? THE BOTCHED EXECUTION OF FRED LEUCHTER
                                       
   (Presented at the Eleventh IHR Conference, October 1992)
   
   by Fred A. Leuchter, Jr.
   
   Many of you, I am sure, know who I am, where I've been, and what I've
   done. Today I'm here to tell you what has happened to me since I
   addressed the Tenth International Revisionist Conference in
   Washington, DC, in October 1990.
   
   One of my jobs as an engineer of execution technology has been to
   "post mortem" executions from a technical standpoint, that is, to
   determine if anything went wrong and, if so, to determine just how the
   execution was botched. This normally entails reviewing eyewitness
   accounts of how the executees were tortured, mutilated, or otherwise
   dehumanized in society's name.
   
   I will do that here today, except that, in this case, it is myself
   that I post mortem -- and the cadaver isn't dead! Much to the dismay
   of my executioners, the execution was so badly botched that I am able
   to stand here before you to speak the truth, and to tell the world
   that it is not myself, but the Holocaust story that is dead. I repeat
   for the record: I was condemned for maintaining that there were no
   execution gas chambers at Auschwitz, Birkenau, Majdanek, Dachau,
   Mauthausen, or Hartheim Castle. There's no proof for the charge, only
   innuendo, lies, and half-truths. Robert Faurisson, Ernst Zuendel and
   others said this first. They, too, live as victims of botched
   executions, but nevertheless free to speak the truth in a strong and
   growing voice that repeats: No gas chambers, no gas chambers, no damn
   gas chambers!
   
   This address, then, is not a post mortem on my cadaver but rather a
   post mortem by my cadaver.
   
   As you know, I was sent to Poland in 1988 by and for Mr. Ernst Zuendel
   to investigate the alleged execution gas chamber facilities at the
   three concentration camps of Auschwitz, Birkenau, and Majdanek. I was
   chosen for this task from a field of experts numbering one, and
   recommended by those states in the USA where lethal gas chambers are
   used to execute convicted criminals. My forensic analysis and
   subsequent report prove beyond any shadow of a doubt that there were
   no gas execution facilities operated by the Nazis at these sites. I
   also entered these findings (which are also detailed in my published
   report) into the court record in sworn testimony in Toronto as a
   court-qualified expert.
   
   Because I was somewhat naive at the time, I was not aware that by so
   testifying I was offending the organized world Jewish community. By
   providing final, definitive proof that there were no execution gas
   chamber utilized for genocidal purposes by the Germans at these
   wartime camps, I established the simple fact that the Holocaust story
   is not true. What I did not know was that anyone expressing such
   beliefs is guilty of a capital crime: that of thinking and telling the
   unspeakable truth about the greatest lie of the age.
   
   I would have to pay for this crime. While I innocently told the truth
   in Toronto, plans were made, and subsequently implemented, for a major
   effort to destroy me. If I could be destroyed and discredited -- so
   the reasoning went -- no one would accept my professional findings, no
   matter how truthful.
   
Overview

   Since April 1988, when I testified in the second Zuendel trial in
   Toronto about my inspection of the alleged gas chambers in Poland, my
   life has been turned upside down.
   
   I have been vilified both privately and publicly in all forms of the
   media. My clients have been cajoled and threatened into not dealing
   with me. High-level law enforcement officials, acting for personal
   reasons, have lied about me and have prevented clients from dealing
   with me. My person and reputation have been defiled by lies and
   innuendo. My family and I have been repeatedly threatened.
   
   Behind this campaign to punish me and suppress the truth about the gas
   chambers, have been several Jewish organizations, which have publicly
   vowed to silence me by destroying my ability to make a living.
   
   At the forefront of this effort has been Beate Klarsfeld of the
   Paris-based Klarsfeld Foundation. In the United States, the campaign
   has been orchestrated through the US-based "Holocaust Survivors and
   Friends in Pursuit of Justice." Associated with these two
   organizations have been the Anti-Defamation League of the B'nai B'rith
   and the Jewish Defense League.
   
   At Klarsfeld's initiative, these groups first carried out an extensive
   one year investigation. After they were unable to turn up any
   impropriety or wrongdoing on my part, they began to threaten prison
   wardens with political consequences if they dealt with me. This first
   came to light when the ABC television news program, "Prime Time,"
   decided to do a network television piece on myself and my work. This
   involved filming at various prisons. Prison wardens advised the "Prime
   Time" personnel of the threats and problems that resulted from my
   presence at the prisons for the filming. ABC news was told not to air
   the program. It refused to succumb to the pressure, and consequently
   suffered vilification by the organizations involved.
   
   To sum up here, this campaign has consisted of the following:
   
    1. Threats against prison officials who dealt with me.
    2. False and slanderous vilification through private channels, as
       well as publicly in newspapers and magazines.
    3. Legislation to prevent me from working at my profession.
    4. Criminal prosecution for working at my profession.
    5. Lies by public officials spread both officially and privately.
    6. Restriction of my personal freedom and right to travel by
       effecting my illegal arrest and imprisonment in England, from
       where I was finally deported.
    7. Interference with my right as an American citizen to help and
       protection from the US State Department, which refused to assist
       me during my illegal imprisonment in England.
       
   As a result of this campaign, my livelihood has been destroyed, and my
   career has been ruined. All this for telling the truth under oath.
   
   The organizations cited above also interfered with the execution in
   Illinois of a certain Mr. Walker by threatening to pass legislation to
   prevent that state from allowing me to complete an ongoing contract.
   As a result, Director McGinnis ultimately yielded to this pressure and
   proceeded with the execution using equipment known to be defective.
   Under pressure from these groups, and through the efforts of Alabama
   Deputy Attorney General, Ed Carnes, the State of Alabama did not
   purchase a new electric chair. Carnes wrote a lying memorandum to all
   Departments of Corrections around the United States claiming that I
   was dangerous and held unorthodox views on execution. He caused the
   State to breach its contract. According to his office, this means I
   support only humane and painless executions. Carnes actually lied to
   me to get me to testify that a prior execution was humane.
   
   As a direct result of interference by these groups, at least one man
   was tortured to death in Virginia. Purchasing agents and wardens have
   been mendaciously told that my equipment failed during an execution,
   which is not true. It has never failed. Delaware Deputy Attorney
   General Silverman breached my contract, which was already underway,
   because I wrote the Zuendel trial Leuchter Report. This contract was
   for maintenance on their lethal injection machine and gallows,
   previously fabricated by me, and for training of their execution
   personnel. Delaware has refused to pay me for the work I completed,
   and has instructed me to keep the control module of their lethal
   injection machine. However, the protocol I wrote for execution by
   hanging was submitted by them and approved by the court system. In
   Massachusetts, legislation specifically designed to put me out of
   business has been filed for four years running.
   
   Finally, and also at the insistence of these same Jewish groups, a
   spurious criminal complaint was filed against me in the Massachusetts
   court system with the intent of destroying my reputation by putting me
   in prison for three months.
   
   I was charged with practicing as an engineer without a license. In
   point of fact, a license is not required in Massachusetts, or any
   other state, unless the engineer is involved in construction of
   buildings, and is certifying compliance with specifications. There is
   also a statutory exemption for engineers who do not deal with the
   general public.
   
   As confirmation of the spurious nature of this charge, it should be
   pointed out there are more than fifty thousand practicing engineers in
   Massachusetts, of whom only five thousand are licensed. Although the
   state's licensing law has been in effect since 1940, there has been no
   record of any prosecution for this offense.
   
   The charge was improperly brought. Nevertheless, if it had been
   successful, and I had been convicted, I would have been imprisoned for
   three months.
   
   The Massachusetts state Engineering Board, under pressure from
   Klarsfeld and her "Holocaust Survivors and Friends in Pursuit of
   Justice," filed this criminal complaint in Middlesex County. The name
   of the complainant was denied me, and was not made available until the
   matter was brought before the court. Before the complaint was issued,
   and several times thereafter, I was given the chance to recant in
   return for non-issuance or dismissal of the complaint. I also would
   have been obliged to give up my profession, in order to discredit my
   Report. I refused, and responded to the Board's threat with a denial
   that any law had been violated. The original clerk magistrate who
   issued the complaint apologized for bowing to Jewish pressure in
   prosecuting me under a statute that was being mis-applied. A
   representative of the ADL tried to force her testimony on the hearing,
   but was denied access because she had no evidence to offer that was
   pertinent to the matter. The District Court judge, in an excellent
   imitation of Pontius Pilate, summarily dismissed our motions for
   dismissal, allowed my court-appointed attorney to withdraw, and
   instructed Kirk Lyons, Director of the Cause Foundation and my
   out-of-state attorney, to re-file our motions for dismissal, because
   they all had merit. After it became clear that there would be no
   justice for us in the Malden District Court, we moved the case to
   Superior Court for a jury trial.
   
   With this charge hanging over my head, it was impossible for me to
   consult, supply equipment, or even act as an expert witness in
   American courts, as I had often done.
   
   The district attorney's office, under heavy pressure from various
   Jewish organizations, selected its best prosecuting attorney to handle
   my case. In the belief that he would be the person most likely to
   bring about a conviction, he was pulled from a murder trial. In June,
   just prior to the trial, our motions for dismissal were heard. The
   judge, also under heavy pressure from Jewish groups, told the district
   attorney that this case was not properly a criminal matter, and
   strongly suggested that the case be resolved short of a trial. With
   the ever-present possibility of conviction and jail (faced by most
   political prisoners) we negotiated a settlement.
   
   A very special consent agreement was signed [on June 11, 1991] that
   made legal history in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. The agreement
   was not a promise by the defendant to the court, as is normally the
   case, but an agreement between the State Engineering Board and myself.
   The board which, on two previous occasions, had refused to accept my
   application for registration because they do not register people who
   practice my discipline, was required to become a party to the
   agreement. [For more on this agreement, see the IHR Newsletter,
   July-August 1991, p. 3.]
   
   The consent agreement requires the board to accept my application and
   process it with "due diligence." Until the application is approved, or
   until two years are up, I have agreed not to use the title "engineer"
   or issue an engineering opinion in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts.
   This is, in effect, a temporary gag order imposed to satisfy the
   interested Jewish groups.
   
   By removing the case from consideration by criminal courts, the
   possibility of my imprisonment has been eliminated. If the Engineering
   Board fails to process and issue a license to me within a reasonable
   period, and in due course, the matter should then move to the civil
   courts. Attorney Lyons is presently preparing the necessary
   application. However, a new problem has arisen. All applications must
   be accompanied by the recommendations of three state-licensed
   engineers, but none is willing to risk the wrath of the Jews in my
   behalf.
   
   The de facto gag order, imposed by the settlement, applies only within
   the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, and I am free to pursue my
   profession anywhere else.
   
   Most of the execution equipment in the United States is either worn
   out, obsolete, or improperly fabricated, and is in need of repair or
   replacement. I am the only person who does this work, and states are
   being denied the right to deal with me. Although wardens and
   commissioners are afraid to even speak with me, they often do so
   anyway through intermediaries. One state has a leaking gas chamber,
   but will use it, endangering the lives of guards and witnesses, rather
   than risk discovery in dealing with me. How many more inmates will be
   tortured, or lives lost, through the callous interference of these
   Jewish groups?
   
   Owing to the successful conspiracy of these Jewish groups, I am
   completely out of business, unable to find work to feed my family. In
   spite of everything, though, I am still here, and I am still telling
   the truth. Furthermore, I intend to continue to tell the truth. If the
   organized Jewish community wants to stop me, it will have to try much
   harder.
   
   Moreover, attempts to discredit the Leuchter Report have failed, most
   notably with Pressac's inept analysis. Since the release of the
   Leuchter Report [in 1988], independent evidence has shown that the six
   million death figure has been grossly exaggerated, and an
   investigation by the Polish state forensic institute [among others]
   has corroborated that no gas was utilized in the alleged execution
   chambers at Auschwitz.

   [Account of Fred's brief stay in an English gaol omitted here.]
   
Conclusion

   Unfortunately, my clients -- the state governments -- are still
   intimidated by my Jewish persecutors. This continues to deprive me of
   my income, and it is not at all clear whether this will ever end.
   
   I have been unable to apply for my state engineering license because
   no engineers have been willing to sign papers recommending me (which
   is a requirement), out of fear of retaliation. Without some official
   change in my status, such as a license, even the friendly state
   governments are afraid to deal with me. The major lawsuit we had
   planned against my persecutors is stalled, perhaps permanently,
   because of a lack of funds.
   
   And, although my findings will ultimately be accepted by all, I still
   have no contracts, have been unable to find work and have no income.
   It does not seem that this will improve in the near future.
     _________________________________________________________________


From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Fred Leuchter (was Re: Revisionist answers)
Date: 3 Jan 1995 08:16:22 GMT
Organization: Brown University
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Message-ID: <3eb14m$dk7@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
References:   
NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu

    The "Leuchter report": put up or shut up, Vicksell
    --------------------------------------------------

Long and detailed refutations of the "Leuchter report" - the 
report written by this "engineer" (whose only degree is 
a BA in the humanities), regarding the Auschwitz gas 
chambers - were posted here, and are periodically posted
by Ken McVay.

The "report" is a piece of pseudo-scientific rubbish. The
arguments Leuchter makes are ridiculous. Part of my job is
to review papers submitted to scientific journals and
conferences. I can say with certainty that, although I've seen 
bad papers here and there, I've never seen such a collection
of errors, self-contradictions, and incredibly stupid
statements such as the "Leuchter report".

Now, if our "revisionist scholars", like Vicksell, believe
otherwise - well, they should be able to prove it. All they
have to do is state what they believe are the strong points
in the report, and explain why they are correct. 


-Danny Keren.
From: simon1@bu.edu (Simon Streltsov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Fred Leuchter (was Re: Revisionist answers)
Date: 3 Jan 1995 18:33:38 GMT
Organization: Boston University
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References:    <3eb14m$dk7@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>

Danny Keren (dzk@cs.brown.edu) wrote:

: The "report" is a piece of pseudo-scientific rubbish. The
: arguments Leuchter makes are ridiculous. 

Danny, 

the post you are answering does not add anything to the
"report" itself - FL is saying about the ways Jewish community
attacks him - so, your answer is not really addressing the issue.

Simcha Streltsov, _Former_  Adar Rabbi of S.C.Soviet
-------------------------
please, only Kosher lePesach homentashen
all others will be returned unopened.

p.s. This sig expired, but nobody have sent me real
     homentashen anyway

Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Fred Leuchter (was Re: Revisionist answers)
In-Reply-To: simon1@bu.edu's message of 3 Jan 1995 18:33:38 GMT
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References: 
	
	 <3eb14m$dk7@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
	<3ec5a2$r6m@news.bu.edu>
Date: Tue, 3 Jan 1995 22:36:32 GMT
Lines: 49


From: simon1@bu.edu (Simon Streltsov)
>the post you are answering does not add anything to the
>"report" itself - FL is saying about the ways Jewish community
>attacks him - so, your answer is not really addressing the issue.

And what in that posting leads you to believe that there is any
"jewish community" attacking Leuchter?

Ya know, these people are crazy as bedbugs and if they get a parking
ticket for not putting a nickel in the meter they start hooting and
hollering that the jewish community is in control of the meter maids
and persecuting them.

How come Leuchter's remarks are completely bereft of any evidence for
his claims? He just conjures up some sort of world-wide jewish
conspiracy out to get him, describes his misadventures, and blames it
all on "them". Who the hell is them? Why can't he be specific if he's
so sure of this?

I'll tell you way, because it's just bullshit, that's why.

So why should anyone address any of this seriously (other than to
point out its absurdity)?

It's the oldest anti-semitic trick in the book, the world-wide jewish
conspiracy with a death-grip over everything. So we have to assume
this world-wide jewish conspiracy also has a death-grip on all the
courts in the US? How do they do all these things? Must be quite a
group!

Ok, here's the first question for these nut-cases:

	What is the phone number and mailing address of this
	well-organized and invincible international jewish
	conspiracy Leuchter keeps referring to?

Simple and fair question, no? Certainly anything so organized and
capable of trampling all these people into the ground, with complete
control of the entire court system in the US etc, MUST HAVE A PHONE
NUMBER AND AN ADDRESS!

Listen to the silence...

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 20913 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Fred Leuchter (was Re: Revisionist answers)
Date: 3 Jan 1995 18:20:26 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
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References:   
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net

In article ,
Ross Vicksell  wrote:
>This is an excerpt from a speech Fred gave at the 1992 IHR conference.  
>I got it from Greg's www site.  All I've left out is Fred's account of 
>his English misadventures, which has little relevance to the topic under 
>discussion.
>
>[Leuchter speech omitted]

    Given Leuchter's obvious fantasizing regarding his incontrovertible
proof that there were no gas chambers (e.g., he says that an intact
chamber at Majdanek is stained with prussian blue, yet says it was
technically defective for use with cyanide despite the physical evidence
that cyanide was used there), I take his assertions about the legal
situation with a giant economy size box of Morton's salt.

    However, if what he says about selective and malicious prosecution is
true, the ACLU should be interested in his case.  I suspect Alan
Dershowitz would be willing to take it as a free speech issue - I believe
he was the one who defended the right of the Nazis to march in Skokie. 
Has Leuchter contacted them?  If not, why not?

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


Article 20931 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Fred Leuchter (was Re: Revisionist answers)
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
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Date: Wed, 4 Jan 1995 05:38:32 GMT
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:     However, if what he says about selective and malicious prosecution is
: true, the ACLU should be interested in his case.  I suspect Alan
: Dershowitz would be willing to take it as a free speech issue - I believe
: he was the one who defended the right of the Nazis to march in Skokie. 

: Has Leuchter contacted them?  If not, why not?

I doubt very much that Dershowitz would have taken the case; he's a 
doctrinaire revisionist hater.

As for getting the ACLU into the act, I remember that that was first 
thing I asked Fred back in 1990, when this business came to a head.  He 
told me he had already engaged Kirk Lyon's Patriot's Defence Fund, which 
is now called the CAUSE Foundation.  I would have preferred that he had 
contacted the ACLU first, but I was hardly running the show.

               Ross Vicksell

: -- 
: Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
: POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
: Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


Article 20933 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Fred Leuchter (was Re: Revisionist answers)
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
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Date: Wed, 4 Jan 1995 07:20:35 GMT
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Barry Shein (bzs@world.std.com) wrote:

: How come Leuchter's remarks are completely bereft of any evidence for
: his claims? He just conjures up some sort of world-wide jewish
: conspiracy out to get him, describes his misadventures, and blames it
: all on "them". Who the hell is them? Why can't he be specific if he's
: so sure of this?

Read Fred's article again.  He's quite specific.  He names names:
   
   "Behind this campaign to punish me and suppress the truth about the gas
   chambers, have been several Jewish organizations, which have publicly
   vowed to silence me by destroying my ability to make a living.
   
   At the forefront of this effort has been Beate Klarsfeld of the
   Paris-based Klarsfeld Foundation. In the United States, the campaign
   has been orchestrated through the US-based 'Holocaust Survivors and
   Friends in Pursuit of Justice.' Associated with these two
   organizations have been the Anti-Defamation League of the B'nai B'rith
   and the Jewish Defense League.

   At Klarsfeld's initiative, these groups first carried out an extensive
   one year investigation. After they were unable to turn up any
   impropriety or wrongdoing on my part, they began to threaten prison
   wardens with political consequences if they dealt with me. This first
   came to light when the ABC television news program, "Prime Time,"
   decided to do a network television piece on myself and my work. This
   involved filming at various prisons. Prison wardens advised the "Prime
   Time" personnel of the threats and problems that resulted from my
   presence at the prisons for the filming. ABC news was told not to air
   the program. It refused to succumb to the pressure, and consequently
   suffered vilification by the organizations involved.
  
      To sum up here, this campaign has consisted of the following:
   
    1. Threats against prison officials who dealt with me.
    2. False and slanderous vilification through private channels, as
       well as publicly in newspapers and magazines.
    3. Legislation to prevent me from working at my profession.
    4. Criminal prosecution for working at my profession.
    5. Lies by public officials spread both officially and privately.
    6. Restriction of my personal freedom and right to travel by
       effecting my illegal arrest and imprisonment in England, from
       where I was finally deported.
    7. Interference with my right as an American citizen to help and
       protection from the US State Department, which refused to assist
       me during my illegal imprisonment in England.
       
   As a result of this campaign, my livelihood has been destroyed, and my
   career has been ruined. All this for telling the truth under oath."

I do think Fred is being a little rough on Shelley Shapiro of Holocaust
Survivors and Friends in Pursuit of Justice, though.  She appeared on
Boston TV, I think it was WGBH, protesting that they didn't really mean to
destroy Fred's business - they just wanted to discredit the Leuchter
Report. 

Also, since Fred made his list of particulars, he's had another 
non-encounter with the U.S. State Department; they didn't lift a finger 
to help him out when he was jailed in Germany.

As for the involvment of the Klarsfeld Foundation, I sat next to Ms. 
Klarsfeld herself in the courtroom in Malden.  She was there - ask her if
you don't believe ne. But maybe she just happened to be passing through
Boston at the time. Also the local ADL boss was there, at least out front
of courthouse in Cambridge.  Again, you can ask him if you don't believe
me. 

Also Fred fails to mention the Massachusetts Committee Against the Death
Penalty, which also gave him a hard time.  I just made out a check to them,
since they're not hassling Fred any more, as far as I know. 

As for pressure being brought on the media, there's an article about it in
"Truth Prevails."  Straight from the horses mouth.  They complain about
how irresponsible ABC TV is to go ahead and air their Prime Time "Mr. 
Death" show. 

: What is the phone number and mailing address of this  well-organized
: and invincible international jewish conspiracy Leuchter keeps referring
: to? 

Fred never once refers to the "international jewish conspiracy" (IJC). 
That expression, like "holocaust denier", "neo-nazi", and "hate monger",
is part of your set of catch phrases, not ours.  On the contrary, Fred
refers to four specific Jewish Groups: the Klarsfeld Foundation, Holocaust
Survivors and Friends in Pursuit of Justice, the ADL, and the JDL. 

: Simple and fair question, no? Certainly anything so organized and
: capable of trampling all these people into the ground, with complete
: control of the entire court system in the US etc, MUST HAVE A PHONE
: NUMBER AND AN ADDRESS!

Look them up yourself. Two of them are right here in the Boston area, the
ADL in Boston and the JDL in Revere, last time I looked.  And I'm sure if
you also wanted to contact the Klarsfeld Foundation or Holocaust Survivors
et. al., the local ADL would be glad to furnish you with their addresses
and/or phone/fax numbers. 

I have a few more things to say about Fred's trials and tribulations, but 
I'll save them for later.

               Ross Vicksell


Article 20935 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!juno.xana.bc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!caen!math.ohio-state.edu!ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu!miavx1!bpharmon
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Fred Leuchter (was Re: Revisionist answers)
Message-ID: <1995Jan4.014411.36423@miavx1>
From: bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu (Raskolnikov)
Date: 4 Jan 95 01:44:11 -0500
References:    
 <3ec5a2$r6m@news.bu.edu>
Organization: Miami University
Lines: 40

In article <3ec5a2$r6m@news.bu.edu>, simon1@bu.edu (Simon Streltsov) writes:
> Danny Keren (dzk@cs.brown.edu) wrote:
> 
> : The "report" is a piece of pseudo-scientific rubbish. The
> : arguments Leuchter makes are ridiculous. 
> 
> Danny, 
> 
> the post you are answering does not add anything to the
> "report" itself - FL is saying about the ways Jewish community
> attacks him - so, your answer is not really addressing the issue.

Leuchter claims to be an engineer.

While testifying in the Zundel trial, he was soundly trounced
during cross-examination.  It came out that he did not have any 
formal training as an engineer, and that he did not know much 
about cyanide or its use. 

Leuchter also claims that he consulted with several prisons and
provided them with execution hardware.  

The wardens of these institutions have never even heard of him, 
and he didn't even correctly remember their names while under
cross-examination.  

To put the nails in the coffin, his report is a joke.  He doesn't
run the proper control experiments.  He makes incorrect 
assumptions about how much cyanide should be present on the walls
of delousing and gas chambers. These are just the beginning.

If Leuchter's career as an "engineer" has since gone down
the toilet, I don't need to invoke a conspiracy to explain his
professional demise.

=======================================================================
Brian Harmon           "...God sets us nothing but riddles.."
Miami University             -Dostoyevski's _The Brothers Karamazov_
Oxford, Ohio 45056                yeech! ackphtbt! ungh!
--------------bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu--------------------------


Article 20947 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!codfish
From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Fred Leuchter (was Re: Revisionist answers)
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References:  
Date: Wed, 4 Jan 1995 10:27:40 GMT
Lines: 93

Barry Shein (bzs@world.std.com) wrote:

: How come Leuchter's remarks are completely bereft of any evidence for
: his claims? He just conjures up some sort of world-wide jewish
: conspiracy out to get him, describes his misadventures, and blames it
: all on "them". Who the hell is them? Why can't he be specific if he's
: so sure of this?

Read Fred's article again.  He's quite specific.  He names names:

   "Behind this campaign to punish me and suppress the truth about the gas
   chambers, have been several Jewish organizations, which have publicly
   vowed to silence me by destroying my ability to make a living.
   
   At the forefront of this effort has been Beate Klarsfeld of the
   Paris-based Klarsfeld Foundation. In the United States, the campaign
   has been orchestrated through the US-based 'Holocaust Survivors and
   Friends in Pursuit of Justice.' Associated with these two
   organizations have been the Anti-Defamation League of the B'nai B'rith
   and the Jewish Defense League.
   
   At Klarsfeld's initiative, these groups first carried out an extensive
   one year investigation. After they were unable to turn up any
   impropriety or wrongdoing on my part, they began to threaten prison
   wardens with political consequences if they dealt with me. This first
   came to light when the ABC television news program, 'Prime Time,'
   decided to do a network television piece on myself and my work. This
   involved filming at various prisons. Prison wardens advised the 'Prime
   Time' personnel of the threats and problems that resulted from my
   presence at the prisons for the filming. ABC news was told not to air
   the program. It refused to succumb to the pressure, and consequently
   suffered vilification by the organizations involved.
   
   To sum up here, this campaign has consisted of the following:
   
    1. Threats against prison officials who dealt with me.
    2. False and slanderous vilification through private channels, as
       well as publicly in newspapers and magazines.
    3. Legislation to prevent me from working at my profession.
    4. Criminal prosecution for working at my profession.
    5. Lies by public officials spread both officially and privately.
    6. Restriction of my personal freedom and right to travel by
       effecting my illegal arrest and imprisonment in England, from
       where I was finally deported.
    7. Interference with my right as an American citizen to help and
       protection from the US State Department, which refused to assist
       me during my illegal imprisonment in England."

To which we might add the non-action of the State Department when Fred was
imprisoned for a month in Germany, which happened about a year after the
speech at the IHR convention. 

Fred is being a little hard on Shelley Shapiro, of Holocaust Survivors and 
Friends in Search of Justice, who said on Boston TV how they hadn't 
really meant to destroy Fred's business, just his credibility as writer 
of the Leuchter Report.  Too bad things came out the way they did.

I sat next to Beata Klarsfeld in the courtroom in Malden and I saw the
chief honcho of the local ADL, I forget his name, outside the courthouse
in Cambridge, and the JDL were there at every court appearance of Fred's. 
All organizations present and accounted for.

The pressure applied to ABC to not show their Prime Time "Dr.Death" is 
discussed in an article in Shelly Shapiro's anthology "Truth Prevails, 
the End of the Leuchter Report."  Straight from the  horse's mouth.

Fred also was being harrassed by the Massachusetts Committee Against the 
Death Penalty, too, but I forgive them.  I just sent them a check, in fact.

: 	What is the phone number and mailing address of this
: 	well-organized and invincible international jewish
: 	conspiracy Leuchter keeps referring to?

Fred never once refers to the "international jewish conspiracy".  He does
talk about four particular Jewish organizations.  The one that started
"Operation Get Leuchter" is in Paris, which does give an internation
flavor to the affair, I admit. "International jewish conspiracy" is your
catch-phrase, as are "neo-nazi", "hate monger", and "holocaust denier,"
not ours. 

: Simple and fair question, no? Certainly anything so organized and
: capable of trampling all these people into the ground, with complete
: control of the entire court system in the US etc, MUST HAVE A PHONE
: NUMBER AND AN ADDRESS!

Look them up yourself.  Why should I have to do all the dog work?  The 
ADL is in Boston and the JDL is probably still in Revere.  And I'm sure 
the ADL could tell you how to contact the other two outfits.

I have more to say on the subject of Fred's trials and tribulations, but 
I'll save that for later.

            Ross Vicksell


Article 20948 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!garnet.berkeley.edu!schultz
From: schultz@garnet.berkeley.edu (Richard Schultz)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Fred Leuchter (was Re: Revisionist answers)
Date: 4 Jan 1995 12:13:45 GMT
Organization: Philosophers of the Dangerous Maybe
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <3ee3dp$rvr@agate.berkeley.edu>
References:   
NNTP-Posting-Host: garnet.berkeley.edu

In article ,
Ross Vicksell  wrote:

>Read Fred's article again.  He's quite specific.  He names names:
>
>   "Behind this campaign to punish me and suppress the truth about the gas
>   chambers, have been several Jewish organizations, which have publicly
>   vowed to silence me by destroying my ability to make a living.
>   
>   At the forefront of this effort has been Beate Klarsfeld. . . 

No doubt someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I had always been
under the impression that Beate Klarsfeld isn't Jewish.

I also noticed that in this speech, Leuchter was long on Jewish conspiracies
but short on the kind of evidence that might make him out to be something
other than a paranoid loon.  He seems not to have noticed that he admitted
in open court that he had no training as an engineer.  Has it ever 
occurred to him that people who are looking to hire an engineer might
possibly want to hire a qualified one?  And as I pointed out before, if
the prison officials were lying about their relationships with him, 
why didn't he say "here in my hand is a letter from a prison official
who later denied having ever heard of me."  
--
					Richard Schultz

"I seem to smell a peculiar and a fishlike smell."


Article 20954 of alt.revisionism:
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From: simon1@bu.edu (Simon Streltsov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Fred Leuchter (was Re: Revisionist answers)
Date: 4 Jan 1995 16:59:11 GMT
Organization: Boston University
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References:    <3ee3dp$rvr@agate.berkeley.edu>
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X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL0]

I dug up references to Fred Leuchter in the court proceedings -
there is none about him (? because it did not get to court),
but there are several ref. to him being asked as an expert.

I'll let you decide if it is relevant or not 
(I tried to keep court cases, so that it would be easy to find the
missing parts)

Simcha

     Chicago Daily Law Bulletin

                           December 1, 1992, Tuesday
HEADLINE: Executioners and the tools of their trade

BYLINE: THOMAS MAEDER

 BODY:
   Engineering and industrial design are generally employed to enhance our lives
with the creation of pleasingly functional objects. More rarely they help to
take lives away, as in weapons design, or in the work of Fred  Leuchter  of
Massachusetts, America's only specialist in the design and construction of
execution devices.

    Leuchter  does not create engines of mass destruction, like the gas chambers
of the Nazi death camps. Rather, his instruments are designed to solve a
peculiar practical and moral problem: how to cut down on the number of ...

    Capital punishment, not capital torture'' is Fred  Leuchter's  motto.
Society has sentenced certain men to die -- no more and no less -- and with good
old Yankee ingenuity,  Leuchter  seeks ways to get the job done quickly,
painlessly and well. Most existing execution equipment is ancient, and was
amateurishly constructed to begin with. So why not buy a new, professionally
made gallows for $ 85,000, with on-site training and an optional service
contract? Or an electric chair made of oak, with a padded backrest?

    Leuchter  was hardly the only person Stephen Trombley spoke to. Yet for a
book entirely devoted to the subject of executions, The Execution Protocol:
Inside America's Capital Punishment Industry'' offers surprisingly little direct
speculation ...

   ... trained people, including doctors and clergymen.''

   Trombley, a film maker who was preparing a documentary film on execution as
he conducted research for this book, elected to divide his focus between Fred
 Leuchter's  cottage industry in capital punishment equipment and the workings
of the Potosi Correctional Center. The 48-year-old  Leuchter  emerges as a
character of impenetrable motives, a craftsman working in a morbid medium






   ROBERT WAYNE SAWYER v. JOHN WHITLEY, Warden, Louisiana State
                        Penitentiary, Angola, Louisiana

                               SAWYER v. WHITLEY

                            Civil Action No. 90-4035

            UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE EASTERN DISTRICT OF
                                   LOUISIANA

                  772 F. Supp. 297; 1991 U.S. Dist. LEXIS 9956

                                        
                            July 10, 1991, Decided  
                              July 16, 1991, Filed

   After reviewing the pleadings, the Court determined that an evidentiary
[**26]   hearing on Claim 4 was warranted due to the conflicting affidavits from
the parties' experts. n11 At the conclusion of the hearing,   [*307]   the Court
found that Louisiana's electric chair meets constitutional standards. The Court
rendered oral reasons and advised the parties that written reasons would follow
in this opinion. The Court's reasons are set forth below.


 n11 One of the expert affidavits submitted by Sawyer in support of Claim 4 is
the affidavit of  Fred Leuchter.  The Court recently read in the Times-Picayune
newspaper that  Leuchter  was charged by the State of Massachusetts with
practicing engineering without a license. See Times-Picayune, June 19, 1991, at
A-11. The article reported that on June 11, 1991,  Leuchter  signed a consent
agreement with the Massachusetts board that licenses engineers stating: "I am
not and never have been registered as a professional engineer" and that he had
nevertheless represented himself as an engineer in several dealings with various
states that use the death penalty. The agreement also required  Leuchter  to
stop disseminating the " Leuchter  Report" in which he purports to be an
engineer and offers the view that the gas chambers in Nazi concentration camps
were never used for mass killings. Id.

    Leuchter's  affidavit in the case at bar states: "I have been involved in
electrical engineering work for 26 years." Interestingly, although Sawyer relied
to a great extent on  Leuchter's  affidavit in his petition for habeas corpus,
he did not call  Leuchter  as a witness at the evidentiary hearing, nor did he
offer his affidavit as evidence.
 
 JAMES WILLIAM HAMBLEN, Petitioner, v. RICHARD L. DUGGER,
            Secretary, Florida Department of Corrections, Respondent

                               HAMBLEN v. DUGGER

                              No. 90-616-Civ-J-12

            UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE MIDDLE DISTRICT OF
                         FLORIDA, JACKSONVILLE DIVISION

                 748 F. Supp. 1498; 1990 U.S. Dist. LEXIS 12826

                                        
                            July 16, 1990, Decided  
                              July 16, 1990, Filed
 
  Petitioner advances several reasons for an evidentiary hearing anew in this
Court. On the one hand, he argues that DOC's representations concerning
operation of the electric chair are not credible. For instance, he alludes to
the infamous "toaster test" of a synthetic sponge and contrasts the experience
with synthetic sponges in South Carolina. Both of these matters, however, are
disposed of in Judge Fawsett's opinion, wherein the Court refers to the
testimony from a Department of Agriculture chemist who performed tests on the
sponge used in the Tafero execution, which was chemically different from the
type used in South Carolina. Indeed,  Fred Leuchter,  an expert proffered by
petitioner, testified in Buenoano that polyurethane sponges inhibit the
conduction of electricity and do not absorb water, effectively rebutting
petitioner's assertion that the sponge's composition is irrelevant because its
conductivity is produced by soaking in a saline solution. (The affidavit of
Robert H. Kirschner, M.D., submitted by petitioner, also refers to the increased
resistance of the sponge as the cause of reduced charge to Tafero.) These
criticisms of DOC, then, do not present issues requiring an  [**9]   evidentiary
hearing.


The Court turns to petitioner's other stratagem, the proposal of issues that
would be proved if an evidentiary hearing were held. (Petitioner states that
Judge Fawsett refused to hear the proposed evidence.) n3 First, petitioner
proposes to show that power was lost at Florida State Prison on May 7, 1990,
during tests of the electric chair. Because power had not been lost in this
fashion previously, petitioner contends that this evidence undermines DOC's
subsequent assertion that the equipment now works today as it did prior to
Tafero's execution. Second, petitioner would show that agents of DOG sought
repair of the head electrode by inmate workers in the maintenance shops of the
Florida State Prison prior to Tafero's execution. Petitioner contends that this
evidence demonstrates an awareness of the alleged defective condition of the
head electrode and DOC's failure to seek proper repair thereof. Third,
petitioner would call  Fred Leuchter  to testify that the only possible
explanation for the events surrounding Tafero's execution is a broken or poorly
maintained head electrode. Further, Mr.  Leuchter  would testify to the
negotiations between himself and DOC officials  [**10]   in 1986 over proposed
repairs and maintenance for the electric chair. Petitioner contends that this
latter testimony demonstrates the knowledge of DOC officials of defects in the
electric chair. Last, petitioner would present testimony regarding the
possibility that Tafero suffered when conductivity problems arose during his
execution.
 

      WALLACE NORRELL THOMAS, Petitioner, v. CHARLIE JONES,
                    Warden, Holman State Prison, Respondent

                                THOMAS v. JONES

                         Civil Action No. 90-0517-AH-C

           UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF
                           ALABAMA, SOUTHERN DIVISION

                  742 F. Supp. 598; 1990 U.S. Dist. LEXIS 8581

                                        
                             July 10, 1990, Decided

OPINION:


  Evidence Presented

   The following is a summary of the relevant evidence presented through
documents, exhibits, affidavits, depositions, and testimony at the hearing.

   Alabama's wooden electric chair is in a separate "execution chamber" with its
back to the wall on which the receptacles for the electrical connectors are
located. There are four receptacles, arranged two by two. (Photograph, Exhibit 2
to Morse affidavit). To properly connect the chair to the power source the
cables should run from the two bottom receptacles to the back of the chair.
(Morse affidavit, p. 2, Morse testimony, 7/9/90, Bernstein testimony, 7/9/90,
Brooks affidavit, p. 2, Thigpen deposition). The top receptacles lead to a bank
of test resistors from which no power can flow. ( Leuchter  affidavit, p. 3,
Bernstein testimony, 7/9/90, Morse testimony, 7/9/90).

   If the cables are connected from the top receptacles to the electric chair,
no electrical power reaches the chair. (Brooks' affidavit, p. 2,  Leuchter 
affidavit, p. 3, Morse testimony, 7/9/90, Bernstein testimony, 7/9/90).


 [*606]    Fred  A.  Leuchter  (engineer engaged in the design and manufacture
of "execution hardware") states that Alabama's execution equipment is old, but
that it is the same type of equipment most electrocution states use to carry out
their electrocutions.  Leuchter  opines that, properly operated, Alabama's
electric chair can be used to carry out a humane execution. ( Leuchter 
affidavit, p. 4).  Leuchter  also states that the old electric chair is being
replaced because of the difficulty in getting spare parts, and because the newer
electric chair will be easier to use.

   Dr. Morse testified that he examined the electric chair on July 5, 1990, that
it was in satisfactory working order, and that the design, though simple, is
adequate to enable the Alabama Department of Corrections to carry out a humane
execution. (Morse deposition,   [**21]   and Morse testimony at 7/9/90 hearing).
   Dr. Bernstein testified that Alabama's execution procedures are inadequate
because the electric chair is antiquated ("an accident waiting to happen") and
because the people who operate it do not know what they are doing. Bernstein
holds the opinion that better trained personnel would not have made the mistake
made by Craft and Skipper, and that there is a substantial likelihood of some
other mishap occurring during future executions.

   Some of the documentary evidence and live testimony tended to show that
corpses of prisoners executed in Alabama's electric chair bear unexplained
burns. (Richardson Autopsy Report, Dunkins Autopsy Report.)

   Findings of Fact

  1. The Court finds that in a properly performed judicial electrocution the
initial application of electricity is meant to cause instant brain death.
Cardiac arrest is secondary.

   2. The Court finds that the electric chair was incorrectly connected on the
night of July 14, 1989. As a result of this error, no electrical power reached
the chair during the first cycle. Horace Dunkins, Jr. did not receive an
electrical shock until the second cycle.

   3. The Court finds that Dunkins fainted at the  [**22]   time of the first
attempt at his execution and never regained consciousness. Consequently, the
Court finds no support for Thomas' contention that Dunkins suffered from being
made to go through a "mock execution." Further, the Court finds no credible
evidence that Dunkins suffered any pain during the actual electrocution process
as during the one time electricity passed through his body, * * * Dunkins was
instantaneously rendered brain dead. Consequently, he was unable to feel pain,
and did not suffer.

   4. The Court finds that the error which occurred during the Dunkins execution
cannot be repeated.



     STATE OF DELAWARE v. BILLIE BAILEY, Defendant

                                STATE v. BAILEY

              Nos. IK79-05-0085R1, IK79-05-0086R1, IK79-05-0087R1,
                 IK79-05-0088R1, IK79-07-0202R1, IK79-07-0203R1

                        Superior Court of Delaware, Kent

                           1991 Del. Super. LEXIS 352

                                        
                            August 23, 1991, Decided

  n3 The State initially contended that any execution by hanging would be
carried out by a "Mr. Ellis" and that any execution by lethal injection would be
carried out in consultation with a Mr.  Fred Leuchter  using a machine he
designed. Ultimately, the State advised the Court that neither of these persons
would be personally involved. The State currently plans to use Department of
Correction employees who will be trained.

    JUDY A. BUENOANO, Appellant, v. STATE OF FLORIDA, Appellee

                               BUENOANO v. STATE

                                   No. 76,150

                            Supreme Court of Florida

          565 So. 2d 309; 1990 Fla. LEXIS 845; 15 Fla. Law W. 355; 15
                               Fla. Law W. S 355

                                        
                                 June 20, 1990

 Still other affidavits presented  [**16]   to this Court confirm a faulty
design in the present electric chair. An expert in the design and construction
of electric chairs,  Fred Leuchter,  Jr., reported that the Florida chair was
not functioning properly because of its use of only a single "homemade" leg
electrode. According to  Leuchter,  an electric chair needs electrodes attached
to both legs in order to work properly.  Leuchter  also criticized the present
leg electrode because it had been haphazardly constructed from an old Army boot
and other spare parts.

   This statement was confirmed by the man who actually fabricated the Army-boot
electrode, Robin Adair. Adair stated that, while working at the prison, he
created the present Army-boot electrode by riveting different types of metal and
roofing material into the boot, together with a stainless steel bolt obtained
from a hardware store. Adair specifically characterized this arrangement as
"homemade.

   This Court thus is faced with a ghastly possibility: A homemade electrode
fashioned out of a used Army boot, spare parts, and roofing material may
sometimes result in flames, smoke, and extensive charring of flesh during an
execution. If the facts as alleged by Buenoano are true,   [**17]   even more
serious malfunctions may occur in the future.




Article 20983 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!nntp.club.cc.cmu.edu!hudson.lm.com!netline-fddi.jpl.nasa.gov!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!usc!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!world!bzs
From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Fred Leuchter (was Re: Revisionist answers)
In-Reply-To: codfish@netcom.com's message of Wed, 4 Jan 1995 05:38:32 GMT
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References: 
	
	 <3ecm3q$n04@access4.digex.net>
	
Date: Thu, 5 Jan 1995 01:45:09 GMT
Lines: 21


From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
>:     However, if what he says about selective and malicious prosecution is
>: true, the ACLU should be interested in his case.  I suspect Alan
>: Dershowitz would be willing to take it as a free speech issue - I believe
>: he was the one who defended the right of the Nazis to march in Skokie. 
>
>: Has Leuchter contacted them?  If not, why not?
>
>I doubt very much that Dershowitz would have taken the case; he's a 
>doctrinaire revisionist hater.

Oh, c'mon, but he defended the Nazis in Skokie, Illinois because...?

You really don't understand these sorts of things, do you?

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 20987 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Fred Leuchter (was Re: Revisionist answers)
In-Reply-To: codfish@netcom.com's message of Wed, 4 Jan 1995 07:20:35 GMT
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References: 
	 
Date: Thu, 5 Jan 1995 02:01:01 GMT
Lines: 64


From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
>   At Klarsfeld's initiative, these groups first carried out an extensive
>   one year investigation. After they were unable to turn up any
>   impropriety or wrongdoing on my part, they began to threaten prison
>   wardens with political consequences if they dealt with me. This first
>   came to light when the ABC television news program, "Prime Time,"
>   decided to do a network television piece on myself and my work. This
>   involved filming at various prisons. Prison wardens advised the "Prime
>   Time" personnel of the threats and problems that resulted from my
>   presence at the prisons for the filming. ABC news was told not to air
>   the program. It refused to succumb to the pressure, and consequently
>   suffered vilification by the organizations involved.

Ok, so Leuchter does name names etc.

So how did this Paris-based group exercise political pressure? What
does that mean exactly? How can a sane and rational person distinguish
this from psychotic ravings and make the connection that bridges the
complaint that something happened this fellow didn't like, and there
exist people out there who didn't like him (I don't doubt people
dislike him, I don't doubt he dislikes what happened to him, but
that's beside the point, right? A connection has to be made, not just
a list of events that might or might not be related.)

Such massive political pressure that would bring ABC and courtrooms
and prison wardens to their respective knees has to have something
more to be described in the way of process than just postulating cause
and effect. A bridge between the two has to be established, not just
that they both happened to exist.

Otherwise it's just appears to be a fantasy, something is missing,
like tying any of this together. It's not enough to say Beate
Klarsfeld doesn't like me, I lost in court, so therefore Beate
Klarsfeld must control the US court system. That's nonsense of the
first order, and there's little else here.

>Also, since Fred made his list of particulars, he's had another 
>non-encounter with the U.S. State Department; they didn't lift a finger 
>to help him out when he was jailed in Germany.

He knowingly and pugnaciously violated their laws, right? Why should
the US State Dept intervene? Particularly on what, in the grand scheme
of things, isn't really a very serious charge, appeared to be done as
a willful act of civil disobediance, and occurred in a country whose
laws and legal process this country generally respects?

If he were arrested and sentenced to death for taking his shirt off in
some third-world tin-pot dictatorship that's one thing, but why should
the US State Dept challenge Germany's legal sovereignty on a matter
like this? Particularly one where the offender has made it very clear
(even if just by his actions) that he was purposely flaunting the law
for political effect? Did Leuchter somehow accidentally fall into this
mess? What's the point here?

I may not agree with Germany's law, per se, but I don't think I'd
expect the US State Dept to intervene on my half in a situation like
this.

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
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Article 20999 of alt.revisionism:
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Fred Leuchter (was Re: Revisionist answers)
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Date: Thu, 5 Jan 1995 05:29:48 GMT
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Richard Schultz (schultz@garnet.berkeley.edu) wrote:
: In article ,
: Ross Vicksell  wrote:

: >Read Fred's article again.  He's quite specific.  He names names:
: >
: >   "Behind this campaign to punish me and suppress the truth about the gas
: >   chambers, have been several Jewish organizations, which have publicly
: >   vowed to silence me by destroying my ability to make a living.
: >   
: >   At the forefront of this effort has been Beate Klarsfeld. . . 

: No doubt someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I had always been
: under the impression that Beate Klarsfeld isn't Jewish.

Right, but her husband is a Jewish Survivor, of course.

: I also noticed that in this speech, Leuchter was long on Jewish conspiracies
: but short on the kind of evidence that might make him out to be something
: other than a paranoid loon.  He seems not to have noticed that he admitted
: in open court that he had no training as an engineer.  Has it ever 
: occurred to him that people who are looking to hire an engineer might
: possibly want to hire a qualified one? 

Nobody in the country was better qualified to design and service 
execution equipment than Fred, since he was the only guy around in that 
line. And the prison wardens were all pleased as punch with his services.
Then along comes the Leuchter report and the roof caves in on him.  
Reminds you of what happened to David Irving when he came out with 
Hitler's War.

:  And as I pointed out before, if
: the prison officials were lying about their relationships with him, 
: why didn't he say "here in my hand is a letter from a prison official
: who later denied having ever heard of me."  

And as I pointed out, Fred did most of his business on a "handshake" 
basis; there were often no written records.  What the officials were lying 
about was not about whether they had dealt with Fred in the past, but 
whether they had any pending dealings with him.

Also, as I said before, Fred still hoped to rebuild his shattered 
business, so he didn't want to antagonize his customers.

I'll write to Fred and see whether he wants to elaborate on why he has no 
written records of these pending deals with the prisons.

                       Ross Vicksell


Article 21006 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dmittleman@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Fred Leuchter (was Re: Revisionist answers)
Date: 5 Jan 1995 05:06 MST
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In article , codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) writes...
>Richard Schultz (schultz@garnet.berkeley.edu) wrote:

>Nobody in the country was better qualified to design and service 
>execution equipment than Fred, since he was the only guy around in that 
>line. And the prison wardens were all pleased as punch with his services.
>Then along comes the Leuchter report and the roof caves in on him.  
>Reminds you of what happened to David Irving when he came out with 
>Hitler's War.

    Has it occurred to you that maybe instead of this being an anti-denier
    conspiracy it was simply that the Leuchter Report was evidence that
    Fred was a bad engineer and once this was pointed out to prison
    administration they lost interest?

>:  And as I pointed out before, if
>: the prison officials were lying about their relationships with him, 
>: why didn't he say "here in my hand is a letter from a prison official
>: who later denied having ever heard of me."  

>And as I pointed out, Fred did most of his business on a "handshake" 
>basis; there were often no written records.  What the officials were lying 
>about was not about whether they had dealt with Fred in the past, but 
>whether they had any pending dealings with him.

    Ross, most prisons are State or Federal agencies.  There are all sorts
    of contracting and procurement laws which prohibit such agencies from
    doing business on a handshake.  In the 1980s and 1990s there is
    relatively little government procurement done on a handshake anymore
    (although I do not deny there is still a strong old boy network in
    place.)  There are written records for most all government procurement
    these days.

    Further, I don't know whether you have ever had business dealings with
    prison wardens.  I have in that my research center has worked with
    prison wardens in Arizona.  I found the wardens to be among the most
    rigid and structured clients I have ever dealt with.  These were not
    the sort of people who would take liberties with procurement laws;
    As a group these were rather anal people who would dot every "i" and
    cross every "t".

    In short, I think you are pulling this "handshake" line out of thin
    air.  It doesn't ring true to me.

>Also, as I said before, Fred still hoped to rebuild his shattered 
>business, so he didn't want to antagonize his customers.

    Lotsa luck.

>I'll write to Fred and see whether he wants to elaborate on why he has no 
>written records of these pending deals with the prisons.

    Because they don't exist, me thinks.

===========================================================================
daniel david mittleman     -     danny@arizona.edu     -     (602) 621-2932


Article 21012 of alt.revisionism:
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From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Fred Leuchter (was Re: Revisionist answers)
Date: Thu, 05 Jan 1995 10:45:29 -0500
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codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) wrote:

> This is an excerpt from a speech Fred gave at the 1992 IHR conference.

>    I...have been unable to find work and have no income.
>    It does not seem that this will improve in the near future.

Ross, correct me if I'm wrong, but Leuchter derived income from this
speech.  Isn't getting paid to say "I have no income" a variation on
the Liar's Paradox?

We've heard second-hand testimony that Leuchter can visit some exclusive
clubs in his area;  presumably he's reasonably well-off.  Any comment,
Ross?  Would you characterize him as "middle-class"?  "Comfortable"?
That attorney of his whom you recently contacted -- is that attorney
on retainer?
-- 
 Jamie McCarthy   Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu   AppleLink: j.mccarthy
 "The Jewish people will be exterminated...it's in our program."  - Himmler
 "Until you find a reference to gas chambers, you can forget about long,
  drawn-out discussions of Himmler's speeches."                     - Raven

Article 21067 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Fred Leuchter (was Re: Revisionist answers)
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
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References:  
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 1995 07:47:48 GMT
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Jamie McCarthy (k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu) wrote:
: We've heard second-hand testimony that Leuchter can visit some exclusive
: clubs in his area;  presumably he's reasonably well-off.  Any comment,
: Ross?  Would you characterize him as "middle-class"?  "Comfortable"?
: That attorney of his whom you recently contacted -- is that attorney
: on retainer?

As I told you all earlier in this thread, Fred dropped out of sight last
Spring, so I really can't tell you how well off he is now.  I was probably
the last revisionist to see him. 

His mother and his aunt still live in Malden, so I'll send a letter to 
Fred via them and see what he has to say about the behavior of those 
prison wardens, if he feels like talking about it.

                    Ross Vicksell
              

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