Path: world!uunet!in1.uu.net!fu-berlin.de!zib-berlin.de!unlisys!netmbx.netmbx.de!sanio
From: sanio@netmbx.netmbx.de (Erhard Sanio)
Newsgroups: de.soc.politik,de.soc.kultur,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: NAZI-FAKE by Kleinsorg Re: VERBRECHEN der "SIEGER"
Date: 23 Jun 1996 15:11:57 GMT
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Some weeks ago, Horst Kleinsorg published here on the net a story about
alleged Soviet atrocities along with some antisemitic hate propaganda
against the the Soviet Jewish writer Ilya Ehrenburg.

As I learnt later, this story originated from the webmaster of the 
Zuendelsite, Ms. Rimland, and was part of a series of email propaganda
called "Zgrams". I don't know whether those writings are accessible 
and archived for a broader public. Insofar I am not able to figure
out whether the writing Kleinsorg posted stemmed from this source as
asserted by him. Due to his poor writing qualities in both English and 
German I rather tend to assume that he left the text unaltered than 
that he did fabricate it, himself.

Checking the text, I found a number of inconsistencies and inaccuracies 
which made me doubt in the authenticity of the whole story which I
suspected more and more to be but a fabric.  I already posted about my
objections a previous posting.
While Kleinsorg did not react other than by spitting hatred yet remained
silent about the factual objections, other readers pointed to weak points
in my criticism. This made me start a second, more thorough inspection
of the whole affair, of which I am posting the results, below.

-----------------

I want to get this post to the attention of Ms. Rimland in order 
to obtain a public statement of hers about the affair. Could 
somebody take care thereof (I lack the address)?

-----------------

To summarize what had been asserted :  

The story consists of the alleged testimonies of 2 people, a women
named Leonora Geier, allegedly Brasilian-German citizen, and an
unnamed Infantryman. Two other Infantrymen (one of them the witness?)
are named on top of the report.

They are telling that the city of Neustettin having been taken by Soviet
forces of a "1st Byelorussian Army" February 16, 1945 and recaptured by
German forces February 18 . During these three days, Ms. Geyer asserts
to have been invited by "the Soviet Commissar" to witness mutilation,
rape, and murder of German girls from the RAD camp. 
The unnamed infantry man tells that he was ordered at a date not clearly
specified to march to Neustettin. After some days - the account is pretty
inaccurate here - he asserts to have reached a forest West of Neustettin
with his unit, overtaken some tanks for an attack, and afterwards taken
part in the recapture of the city, where numerous traces of massacres
such as dead mutilated bodies have been found and eyewitnesses have told
about the atrocities. The account starts by speculations about the goals
of those atrocities, namely to force the population to flee, and accusations
against the Soviet writer Ilya Ehrenburg, allegedly "Stalin's main
propagandist". All in all, both accounts hold that around 500-1000 girls
and women have been massacred at that place in the RAD camp alone.

-----------------

While abuse and mistreatment of the civilian population - mainly rape on
a particurlarly large scale - is known to have occured during the occupation 
of the Reich by the Red Army and has been documented rather well, the story
above seemed not utterly plausible under a number of respects.

First, it is fitting too well into the patterns of Nazi propaganda. There
are all kinds of villains following Goebbels' patterns: a Jew (Ehrenburg),
a kommissar, subhuman Russians and Poles, and bestialities beyond all
known atrocities - committed in cold blood and by superior order.

Part of the story seems borrowed from the incidents of Nemmersdorf in South-
eastern East Prussia in August, 1944. There, the village in question had
been occupied by Red Army units and recaptured by the Wehrmacht revealing
rape, torture, and murder of about eighty villagers in that small settlement
alone, mainly women, aged and children, being part of a series of those
incidents in the region in question.  The atrocities had been carried out
mainly by gangs of drunken and pillaging soldiers, torture had obviously been
committed in order to find hidden valuables. Later, the assumption arose
that the Soviet leadership had at least tolerated that kind of behaviour
in order to trigger flight movements of German civilians. Nazi propaganda
never suggested that rather that kind of reasoning or speculation is part
of postwar discourse of historians and politicians. 


Second, it is more than just implausible that such an incident would have
been revealed by Wehrmacht forces without any coverage in the propaganda 
apparatus. The Nemmersdorf incident, though at a much smaller scale, had 
found mentioning even in orders of Jodl, inquired by the "Wehrmachtunter-
suchungsstelle", and even by a commission of (more or less) neutral medical
personnel. At the same time when the atrocities are said to have happened,
nearly a full Wehrmacht division was occupied in the production of a
propaganda movie to instigate the will to resist, "Kolberg", dealing with
the turning point in Frederick the Great of Prussia's Seven Years War.
This demonstrates the high level of attention given to propaganda even during
these last months of the war.  That the Nazi propaganda machine should
have left out the incident above though it is perfectly fitting their
propaganda demands seems bit contradictory to say the least.


Third, the witnesses seem more than dubious: a "German-Brasilian", first
considered an ally and Nazi victim by the Soviets, then forced to witness
atrocities which are too much even for the worst enemy, an infantryman
raving about Ilya Ehrenburg and the major goals of Soviet strategy, two
soldiers named as alleged witnesses yet the report not assigned to either
of them, specifically. One may bet that none of the witnesses is or has
been within the reach of any professional historian. Insofar, the story
fits pretty well into the pattern of certain claims of evidence for UFOs,
the supernatural etc. .

-----------------

The considerations above made me inquire bit deeper into the atrocity story.

What I doubted in, were

1 - the alleged RAD camp filled with young women

2 - the Soviet kommissar as the main villain and perpetrator

3 - the gain and loss of the city of Neustettin by the Russians ( it sounded
    like a Nemmersdorf copy )

-----------------


Ad 1: While I first doubted that the RAD still existed and had any
      significance during the war, I learnt that it - having started
      as a means to employ the unemployed - had lost most of its signi-
      ficance, but still formally existed, rather turned into a part of 
      the Wehrmacht recruiting system during the war. Anyway, it seems
      strange that a camp with hundreds or even thousands of young girls
      should have been located in a rather remote area, much more amidst a 
      battlezone (to that topic see below).

ad 2: The institution of the Soviet kommissar is a central pattern in 
      National Socialist Propaganda - the komissar under this view is
      nearly always a Jew, part of the judeo-bolshevist world conspiracy.
      He is source of anything which is evil, cruel, and bestial. Different
      from the Slavic subhuman, he is intelligent and deliberately evil.
      So far the Nazi fantasy. In reality, the komissar in the Red army
      was the delegate of the communist party, who had the same rank as
      the commander with whom he was sharing command and control over
      the unit in question. That kind of institution has been set up 
      during the Russian Civil War 1918-21, when the young Red Army took
      former Czarist officers in their ranks yet the party wanted to 
      keep an instrument for political control of those potentially 
      unreliable persons. During the course of the war in 1941/42, that
      kind of structure prove to be obsolete and an obstacle to efficient
      military leadership. The waste majority of Soviet officers were 
      loyal (many of them CP members) without somebody controlling them,
      and the abilities of the kommissars - who had undergone the same 
      military education as their comrades of the same rank, were 
      widely wasted by the doubled structures - quite unbearable a 
      situation in an army which had just recently suffered murderous
      losses during the German assault on the Soviet Union.
      Therefore, this institution was abandonened in spring, 1942,
      along with the reestablishment of rank signs in the Red Army. 
      That had possibly also to do with the "Kommissarbefehl" of the 
      Nazis, the order to murder any kommissar captured. 
      Now, it seems quite dubious how the bedeviled Soviet komissar 
      may appear in the mid of an atrocity story which is asserted
      to have taken place mid of February, 1945.

ad 3: In the center of my reasoning was the question whether the city of
      Neustettin had ever been taken by the Soviets, and recaptured by
      the Germans short after. In my previous post, I mistakenly inquired
      in the situation mid/end of January, when Soviet forces were not
      even close to Pommerania, instead of that of February 16-18.
      
      Reviewing the situation, I could confirm anyway, that the alleged
      incidents could not have happened at Neustettin as asserted.
      Until February 28, Neustettin was in the hands of the Wehrmacht,
      then taken by units of the 3rd Guard Tank Corps of the Red Army
      together with the 19th Armee, both belonging to the 2rd Byelorussian
      Front. Those units pressed further North during their offensive
      and reached the shore of the Baltic Sea 3 days later - not the 
      least sign for a counteroffensive of the Wehrmacht much less a
      recapture of the city exists. When Neustettin was taken, west
      of that theatre Units of the 1st Byelorussian front headed for
      the Baltic Sea as well. Wehrmacht Units evaded in order to obtain
      new defensive postitions - no counterattack took place in that
      region.

      To check any other possibility, I looked up the War Diary of the
      Wehrmacht High Command (OKW) and the exchanged daily reports between 
      OKW and Army High Command (OKH) during the whole month of February,
      1945. Those reports reveal a consistent image of all even small
      scale operations on the front in question (under the command of 
      "Heeresgruppe Weichsel" - army group Vistula).

      The results prove beyond reasonable doubt that no Soviet forces 
      approached much less took Neustettin prior to February, 28. Until
      the Soviet breakthrough February 24, 1945, at least 20-30km of well-
      fortified and manned terrain lay between Neustettin and the most
      close Soviet forces. Several of the best SS Panzer units were
      assembled here as the OKW planned a major counteroffensive bound
      to Poland starting in March. 

      Until February, 24, the efforts of the Soviets concentrated on
      Arnswalde far West of the region in question and Graudenz, Konitz,
      and Tuchel East of it. In the Arnswalde region, heavy fights took
      place, and that city was repeatedly taken and lost by either side,
      but never Neustettin.
      The alleged account of the infantrymen seems even more dubious 
      under military considerations. Reinforcements from Frankfurt/Oder
      during the alleged period would most probably have been sent to the
      much closer and heavily battled theatres of operations around Pyritz,
      Soldin, and Arnswalde, where the AOK Weichsel (High Command Army
      Group Vistula) hoped to decisively stop the enemy.

      Another question is why thousands of young women should have been
      held in an region rather close to the frontline, with lots of air
      and artillery activity (the reports cited above confirm that) and
      the imminent threat of enemy attacks. It is hard to see of which 
      use they could be, there, while manpower was desperately lacking
      in other parts of the Reich.


-----------------

As a result, it seems to be clear that the alleged events can't have 
happened as the allegations of Kleinsorg and Rimland suggest. I am 
curious whether the above dare to respond.

-----------------

My special thanks to Thorsten Burmester who checked my previous critique
and pointed to several flaws in it, and to Raimund Lammersdorf who helped
me with digging out additional evidence.

-----------------

Sources: (only those of direct relevance for the reasoning above)
         
         Das Dritte Reich und der Zweite Weltkrieg, Berlin 1982, Vol. 10, 
         (The Third Reich and the Second World War)
         p.171-180, esp. 177 (capture of Neustettin and Koeslin)

         Kurt Mehner (Ed.), Die geheimen Tagesberichte der Deutschen 
         Wehrmachtsfuehrung im Zweiten Weltkrieg 1939-1945
         (the secret daily reports of the German Wehrmacht leadership
          during WWII 1939-1945),
         Osnabrueck 1984, Vol 12: January 1 - May 9, 1945, esp. p. 1098ff.
         ("Lagebuch 16.2.1945 and following), see also maps: Dislokation
         Heeresgruppe Weichsel nach Lage Ost, 2.2.45 and 1.3.45

         Percy Ernst Schramm (Ed.) Kriegstagebuch des Oberkommandos der 
         Wehrmacht (Wehrmachtfuehrunsstab) 1940-1945, Frankfurt/Main 1961
         (War diary of the Wehrmacht High Command - leading staff 1940-45)
         esp. pp.180ff ("Tagesmeldungen" Feb 16 und following)



regards, es








From hk@annap.infi.net Mon Jun 24 12:58:53 EDT 1996
Article: 103890 of soc.culture.german
Xref: world de.soc.kultur:8153 de.soc.politik:56721 soc.culture.german:103890
Path: world!zilker.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!news.infi.net!usenet
From: hk@annap.infi.net (Horst Kleinsorg)
Newsgroups: de.soc.politik,de.soc.kultur,soc.culture.german
Subject: SANIO  -The Bolshevik Liar-
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 13:44:01 GMT
Organization: InfiNet
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To all participants in these newsgroups:

On Sunday, June 23.1996, the professional bolshevik liar Edward
SANIO posted  an article, regarding the  war crimes committed by
the Red Army in Germany during and after WWII.

On  previous occasions this liar SANIO has called me a Sau. In
english: pig.  In return I have called him a DRECKSAU to which I
stand to this day.
For this I apologize to everyone except the liar SANIO and his
cohorts.
I will no longer respond to such a dirty LUMP directly but I will
give the readership the possibility to verify my statements and
list the sources where the documents can be found.
It is below my dignity and that of every selfrespecting person to
respond to SANIOs  pro-soviet, anti-german propaganda lies.

As to Nemmersdorf:
(several hundred german women, children, old men, brutally raped
and murdered, some nailed to barndoors alive)
German Federal Archives, Koblenz/Germany:
Amberger Document , Ost-Dok. 2, Nr.13, pp.9-10;

Swiss Warkorrespondent in Geneva "Le Courier" 11.7.44

German Foreign Office, Bonn, Record Group
Voelkerrecht/Kriegsrecht vol. 22, Russia 82/8
Raduns Document;
Zirm Document;

The Metgethen Massacre (near Koenigsberg):
(hundreds of women, children, old men  raped, brutally murdered,
killed with explosives,; in a church, a young girl was nailed to
a cross after the Jesus figure was removed. Two german soldiers
hanged beside her;
German Federal Archives, Koblenz/ Germany:
Ost-Dok. 1/31, p.547    -B.H.Document    -;
Ost-Dok. 2/20, p.8        - H.A.Document-;
Ost-Dok. 2/14, p.106    - Knorr Document-
Ost-Dok. 2/9 pp.309-310  -Sommer Document-
Ost-Dok. 2/8 p.114           -Ipsen Document

(more zitations upon request)

This human lowlife SANIO deserves nothing better than to be
hanged the same way the Nueremberg War Criminals were hanged.
A meathook would be just right for him and his ilk.
HK  

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