Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day024.15
Last-Modified: 2000/07/24

   Q.   I am only going to ask you one question about this because
        I think we accept what happened there, that killings
        began, but this is going to be now questions B to start
        with, the fact that the killings began, is there any
        indication that they began as a direct result of these
        orders and guidelines or did they just begin of their own
        accord like a spontaneous combustion?
   A.   No.  We have, I think, quite good documentation because we
        have Heydrich's order of 29th and Heydrich's letter to the
        highest SS police leader of ----
   Q.   I think the 2nd July.

.          P-129



   A.   --- 2nd July which actually gives you a very clear idea
        what the task of the Einsatzgruppen was.
   Q.   The 2nd July one which, my Lord, I am afraid I still have
        not translated for your Lordship -- we are working on it
         -- this is 2nd July 1941 where Heydrich, am I correct,
        says to the people in the Baltic states:  "If pogrom
        start, you are not to stop them and, in fact, you are to
        help them along"?
   A.   Yes.  I ----
   Q.   "But don't let it be seen"?
   A.   I think I translated this in the second part of my
        report.  This is at page 6, and if you look at the English
        translation, I have to say here that I have,
        unfortunately, made a mistake here which I have to correct
        because if you read this indented paragraph "To be
        executed are", you have to add the word "or" to the first
        line, "To be executed are all" and then it goes on
         "functionaries of the Comintern", and so on, so that the
        word "all" ----
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  So all of the lot of them?
   A.   "All" also relates to the last line, "All Jews in Party
        and State functions", so this is the way the original
        German document is arranged.  So we know from this
        document that Heydrich ordered the Einsatzgruppen to
        execute all Jews and part -- all Jews in Party and State
        functions and the more, I think most interesting word in

.          P-130



        this "all" is the next line which you find on page 7 and
         "other, and all other radical elements including", the
        most important word is I think the "etc." in the end,
        which says, "Well, this is not a definite list of the
        people we are going to kill".  You know, you actually, you
        know, can add to the list.  You can add saboteurs,
        propagandists, snipers, assassins and agitators, others
        who fall into this category.
   MR IRVING:  But am I right in saying ----
   A.   My interpretation of this order is that this is a kind of
        open, very general order which appeals to the initiative
        of the men in the field.  They can actually go and extend
        the killings if they find it appropriate, if it is feasible.
   Q.   An umbrella order?
   A.   Sorry?
   Q.   It is a kind of umbrella order?
   A.   Yes.  Also, there is no indication in this order who
        actually is to be spared.  It does not say, for instance,
        it is not allowed to shoot women.
   Q.   Why should it not be allowed to shoot women?
   A.   Well, it is not said in this order here.
   Q.   If there is a woman kommissar she was going to be spared,
        or a woman sniper?
   A.   Then would assume that this is a Jew in party or state
        function, or it is one of the propagandists, saboteurs

.          P-131



        snipers, and so on.  So I think this is not ----
   Q.   Dr Longerich, I really want to come to this July 2nd
        document tomorrow when we deal with your second report,
        but I do draw attention to your footnote there, the second
        line from the bottom, the only Jews who are actually
        included in that are the Jews in party and state positions
        who are on the shooting list.
   A.   Yes, and the word "etc." in the end, I think in my
        interpretation ----
   Q.   That could mean anything.  It could mean the milkmen and
        everybody else, could it not?
   A.   Yes, everybody else, everybody Jew or non-Jew who was
        suspicious from the point of view of the Nazis, the invaders.
   Q.   Can I now take you back to page 57, where we are looking
        at the Einsatzgruppen?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   I take it from your footnote that you have not made any
        use of the police decodes that are in the Public Record Office?
   A.   I have looked at the police decodes, both in the
        collection here and also at the collection in Washington.
        I have seen several hundred of them, not more.
   Q.   Since you wrote this report or before that?
   A.   I saw the Washington decodes about two years ago and the
        ones here after I finished the report, I think.

.          P-132



   Q.   Just a subsidiary question:  How would you rate the
        decodes as a source?  Are they really pure gold, untouched
        and unimpeachable integrity as a source?
   A.   In the sense that they are authentic?
   Q.   Authentic and likely to contain something approximating to the truth?
   A.   We have actually the chance in some cases to complete the
        deciphers with the German originals in this case.
   Q.   Compare them?
   A.   Sorry, compare them, and in this case it is clear that
        they are authentic.  The problem with the deciphers is
        that they are relating to the order police, which is one
        branch of the German police.  A second problem is that the
        German would use, as far as I am aware, a different code
        for the highest class of classified documents.  They would
        not use this code.  The Einsatzgruppen would not send
        their messages through the order police system.  It is
        clear from one of the deciphers from September that the
        Germans were aware of the danger that the codes could be
        broken and the Deluger sent an order to say what actually ----
   Q.   Keep the figures up or something?
   A.   Be quite cautious here what you are sending.  Also, we do
        not know how comprehensive actually the work of the
        deciphers were.  Is this everything they got?  Is this the
        whole communication of the German police?  So I think we

.          P-133



        will spend, as historians always spend, a lot of time
        actually to assessing this document and to find out to
        which extent it will help us to understand the killings
        better than we did before.
   Q.   I have to take up two points.  First of all, you say that
        because it is the Ordnungs Polizei, the order police, it
        does not contain a high level of material, but we have
        seen in this courtroom messages from Himmler to Jeckeln,
        and that is of course at the very highest level, is it not?
   A.   The high SS police leader would use the communication
        system of the order police.  That is possible, yes.
   Q.   Would you accept, having spent some time looking at these
        decodes, that they are a pretty random selection, that
        they are not methodologically skewed in any way?  Although
        it is not 100 per cent, the volume of documents that has
        been left for us to look at is a random collection of many
        hundreds of thousands of items?
   A.   I am not sure what the numbers -- what I am trying to say
        is, if you look at the deciphers, you cannot be sure that
        the deciphers contain the whole radio communication
        between, let us say, Himmler and Jeckeln, for instance.
        I have no way to find out how comprehensive and how
        representative this collection is.  But of course it adds
        to our knowledge.
   Q.   Yes.  You did not have those, just to make this quite

.          P-134



        plain, at your disposal when you wrote this report?
   A.   I looked into some of the Washington files.
   Q.   The Washington files are not as complete as the British files?
   A.   Yes, exactly.
   Q.   Yes.
   A.   I had the Washington files in front of me when I wrote the
        report, and I did not include them here because what I
        have seen in Washington for me -- for instance, I did not
        find in Washington the Himmler Jeckeln correspondence and
        I did not spend enough time probably on it, but there is
        nothing in it which actually I thought was valuable enough
        to include it into the report.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Irving, could you put, really for my
        benefit as much as anybody else's, to Dr Longerich what it
        is you say about the decodes that is significant.
   MR IRVING:  I am just about to come to that very point, my Lord.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Good.
   MR IRVING:  You say you were not at that time familiar with the
        Himmler and Jeckeln decodes?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Have you in the meantime had a chance to look at them?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   I am referring here to the decodes of November 30th, the
        telephone call from Himmler to Heydrich on November 30th,

.          P-135



        and principally I am going to ask you now about the deeds
        codes of December 1st 1941.
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   There are three?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   The first one is a message from Jeckeln to Himmler on the
        morning.  My Lord, do you want to have the items in front of you?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am trying to follow but the documents are
        now even more scattered about.
   MR RAMPTON:  No, they are not.
   MR IRVING:  They should now be ----
   MR RAMPTON:  They are now collected in here.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I know, but I had marked the previous
        versions of them, that is the problem, and these are all in German.
   MR RAMPTON:  No, they are not.
   MR IRVING:  I have translated them.
   MR RAMPTON:  Wherever possible the English has been put
        opposite the German.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  31st December?
   MR IRVING:  1st December, my Lord.
   A.   Page 142, if I am right on this, in this blue bundle.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Thank you very much.
   MR IRVING:  There should be three altogether.  The first one is
        page 141.  This is 9.15 in the morning.  This is from the

.          P-136



        senior SS police commander, north Russia, to Berlin,
        saying: "I need by next available air courier 10 Finnish
        military pistols with two drum magazines, each execution
        of Sonderaktionen".  He requests a radio telegram reply.
        What inference do you draw from that?
   A.   I do not know whether the term Sonderaktionen refers here
        to shootings, and I do not know whether these Finnish
        pistols were used.
   Q.   Is it a reasonable inference if I say that this is
        probably a reference to the machine gunning of Jews into pits?
   A.   I do not know.  It says militairpistol.  This is not a
        machine gun or short machine gun.
   Q.   Execution of Sonderaktionen?
   A.   I am not sure.  I think it is reasonable to argue this
        line, but I do not know whether ever Finnish military
        pistols were used.  They had their own weapons.  I do not
        see a reason why they urgently needed for these executions
        Finnish weapons.  It does not make sense for me.  It might
        be right, but I do not know the background.
   Q.   Might not there be reasons of camouflage?  They wanted, if
        bodies were dug out, to have Finnish bullets found in the
        bodies rather than German bullets?  This kind of thing
        might have been in it.
   A.   We have enough expertise information that they use
        normally the standard Army pistol.

.          P-137



   Q.   Tommy gun?
   A.   The 9 millimetre pistol for these operations.  Actually
        I have not found something like that.
   Q.   Dr Longerich, the ones I really rely on are page 143, two
        messages that afternoon, or evening rather, 7.30 p.m.,
        both at the same time.  One from Himmler's adjutant,
        Grotmann, and one from Himmler himself, to Jeckeln.
        Jeckeln was the chief villain, was he not?  He was one of
        the biggest murderers in Riga.
   A.   Yes he was the highest SS police leader.
   Q.   The chief SS police leader.  The first one summons him to
        a conference with Himmler on 4th December?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   The second one, even more peremptorily, from Himmler
        himself says to him, "The Jews being outplaced to the
        Ostland are to be dealt with only in accordance with the
        guidelines laid down by myself and/or by the
        Reichssicherheitshauptamt on my orders.  I would punish
        arbitrary and disobedient acts".
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   That looks like quite an important telegram or message?
   A.   I think you will relate this to the telephone call of 13th
        November, and I think you are right to do so.

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