Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day018.13
Last-Modified: 2000/07/24

   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  If it is a natural break, let us do that, but
        I think this afternoon let us move on beyond bundle E and
        you can come back to that, whatever turns out to be a

.          P-109

        convenient moment.  Shall we adjourn now and return at a
        quarter to two.

   (1.45 p.m.)
                       (Luncheon Adjournment)

                      (Professor Evans, recalled.
                  Cross-Examined by Mr Irving, continued.)

   MR IRVING:  Thank you, my Lord.  There is one minor point
        I wanted to pick up from remarks that Mr Rampton made
        shortly towards the end where he referred to black
        servants.  My Lord, you may remember the phrase.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I do not remember.
   MR IRVING:  The phrase he used is black servants and this
may
        be indicative of the mind cast on that side of the
        courtroom.  I certainly do not regard blacks as
servants.
        They were my equals.  I employed these Pakistanis,
Indians
        Sri Lankans and so on as research assistants and
personal
        assistants.  They were not servants in any kind of
menial
        way.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes.
   MR IRVING:  Witness, you may have heard me described by
        Professor Donald Watt and others as Britain's most
        disliked historian.  Does that surprise you?
   A.   Could you direct me to where he actually said that?
   Q.   Very well.  We can move straight on to the next
question.
        You do not like me, do you?
   A.   I have no personal feelings about you at all, Mr
Irving.

.          P-110



   Q.   I think we have seen this morning and from a number of
        your remarks that you dislike what I write, you
dislike
        what I stand for, you dislike what you perceive my
views
        to be.  Is this correct?
   A.   I do not have any person feelings at all.  I was
simply
        asked to write a report, which I have done, about your
        writings and speeches.
   Q.   Well ----
   A.   I have tried to be as objective as possible.
   Q.   Yes of course.
   A.   And to leave any personal feelings I might possibly
have
        out of it.
   Q.   There are a number of remarks which are now a matter
of
        record on this morning's transcript, which indicate
that
        you hold strong personal views which are antipathetic
        towards me.
   A.   Such as?
   Q.   Well, they are a matter of record and I am sure that
the
        court is familiar with them and this is why there was
a
        rather astonished chuckle when you said that you held
no
        views about me from those who had been listening to
you
        this morning.  You are aware of the fact of course,
having
        written an expert report, that you have a duty to
        impartiality?
   A.   Absolutely.  That is described in the last paragraph
of my
        report.

.          P-111



   Q.   Precisely.  I was beginning to express astonishment of
        that fact and that is why I asked the question because
        I had the impression from this morning's answers to
the
        questions that you were averse to answering questions
and
        that you held something bordering between distaste and
        loathing towards me and the books I write or the views
        that you perceive me to hold?
   A.   Not at all.  But it is the fact that I do find it very
        difficult to answer questions about reports written by
        other people.  I am here to answer questions about my
own
        report.
   Q.   You say that, when you went to the British Museum
Reading
        Room, you asked for a copy of my book Hitler's War,
and it
        was not in the public shelves.  Is that correct?
   A.   No.  It was on the public shelves.
   Q.   It was on the public shelves?
   A.   Well, I mean as I say, it was available to everybody
who
        had access to the British library.
   Q.   I remind you of your words?
   A.   That is the new British Library.
   Q.   I remind you of your words in your report where you
say
        that the 1991 edition of Hitler's War can only be read
at
        the desk in the Rare Books Room.  What justification
did
        they offer for that?
   A.   Well, none at all.  I am not responsible for their
        classification.  I have to say that, when I asked to
read

.          P-112



        it, the library assistant in a somewhat astonished
manner
        said to me that it had to be read on the desk reserved
for
        pornography.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  What is the relevance of that to your
report?
   A.   I say it in my report.
   MR IRVING:  Page 15 of his report, my Lord, paragraph 154.
        I am not relying on the pornography aspect, my Lord,
as
        your Lordship will appreciate.
   A.   It is an extremely minor and peripheral point.  I am
not
        suggesting for a moment that it was pornographic, but
it
        is a matter of fact that, when I consulted it, that is
        where I had to read it.
   Q.   Do you infer from that rather curious episode that
what
        has been a very widely reviewed and widely praised
work of
        history should have been placed by the museum in a
        reserved section where it can only be read with
special
        application.  Could that possibly be the result of
some
        kind of campaign or endeavour by third parties, do you
        think?
   A.   Let me say first of all that I do not think that your
        1991 -- correct me if I am wrong -- edition of
Hitler's
        War has been widely reviewed and widely praised.
        Secondly, I have no idea why I had to read it on that
        particular desk.  Let me say if it helps you ----
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am not bothered about that at all,
        Professor.  I am just puzzled why you included it in
your

.          P-113



        report.
   A.   Little bit of light relief, my Lord, to be honest.
        I thought it was a minor detail that struck me as
being
        rather odd, that I just put in to make the report a
little
        bit more readable.  I do not attach any weight or
        importance to it.  If it helps you at all, I really do
not
        understand why they have done it. I cannot speculate
on
        why they have done it.  It did not seem to me worth
        pursuing the matter.  I could read it.  Anybody can
read
        it.  It is not restricted.
   MR IRVING:  You appreciate that it must have taken an
objective
        action by someone, a positive step by someone, to
        recommend that the book should be taken from the
normal
        shelves and placed into a reserved limited access
section?
   A.   It is not really limited access, to be honest.  It is
just
        that you have to read it in a certain place.  My
        experience of the British Library's policy on these
        matters is somewhat haphazard.  It is not terribly
        consistent.
   Q.   Do you have page 15?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I have read it.
   A.   I suggest that, if you wish to pursue this, you should
do
        so with the British Library.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think we have pursued it as far as it
is
        worth pursuing.
   MR IRVING:  I am going to pursue it to the next sentence,
my

.          P-114



        Lord, which is:  "Secondly, Irving has published a
number
        of articles mainly in the Journal of Historical
Review".
        Do you still stand by that statement?
   A.   Yes.  That follows on from the material on which this
        report is based, consisting in the first place of
Irving's
        published books.
   Q.   Are you aware that I have not published one article in
the
        Journal of Historical Review?
   A.   I am sorry, Mr Irving. Your journals are widely
available
        in the Journal of Historical Review.  I have read the
        Journal of Historical Review and there are many
articles
        of yours there.
   Q.   Are you referring to transcripts of talks that I have
        delivered which have then been transcribed by
        the Institute and then published?
   A.   They are there as articles, indeed, yes.
   MR RAMPTON:  I was just saying to my junior that, if this
line
        of cross-examination continues without Mr Irving's
        revealing to the witness the full extent of the way in
        which those articles are published in the Journal of
        Historical Review, I am going to intervene.
   MR IRVING:  I think that my question, as it was put, was
quite
        proper, my Lord.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  So do I, and re-examination is always an
        opportunity to follow up these things.
   MR IRVING:  In other words, you do accept that I have never

.          P-115



        written an article for the Journal of Historical
Review,
        it is however correct that they have published
transcripts
        in the way that learned journals also do of people's
talks
        and lectures?
   A.   I do not accept that the Journal of Historical Review
is a
        learned journal.
   Q.   I did not say so, of course.
   A.   But I would have thought that they would have obtained
        your permission to put the transcripts there and that
you
        would have had the opportunity to revise them before
they
        went in there, and that therefore you were agreeable
to
        their appearing there as articles.
   Q.   Yes.  On page 17 you refer to various bones of
contention
        that you are going to pick in the first paragraph, the
        fourth line, to Irving's use of the evidence of
Hitler's
        Adjutants.  Undoubtedly I am going to be cross-
examined on
        this matter, I believe so.  I do not really want to go
        into very much detail about that until we come to it
in
        the appropriate part of your report, but you do attach
        great importance to the fact, do you not, that you
think
        I made a wrong use of what these members of Hitler's
        private staff told me?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am not sure that you are going to be
        cross-examined because my understanding is that----
   MR RAMPTON:  I said that on the whole I did not think it
        terribly likely, but I did say, if I was going to, I
would

.          P-116



        mention it.  There may be just a couple of points.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I thought I could short circuit this.
   MR RAMPTON:  I am certainly not going to do it at any
length
        because I do not believe I need to.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  You are right, Mr Irving, it is part of
the
        case.  I thought it was not but it is.
   MR IRVING:  It appears to be in a kind of limbo where it
might
        be sprung on me at a later date.  When we come to that
        point in Professor Evans' expert report, than in that
case
        I shall have to deal with it seriatim.  Can I address
your
        attention to page 19 of your report, Professor Evans?
        Half way down the page, at the end of that paragraph,
        paragraph 161, you conclude by saying: "We have not
        suppressed any occasion on which Irving has used
accepted
        and legitimate methods of historical research,
exposition
        and interpretation.  There were none."  That is a very
        sweeping statement it make, is it not?
   A.   Yes.  I should qualify that by saying there wee none
in
        the material we examined.
   Q.   None at all?  I have never used historical material in
the
        proper manner?
   A.   Not in the material we examined, no.
   Q.   I can see his Lordship frowning.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am just puzzled by that.  What material
did
        you examine?  It seems to me you cannot have known
what to
        go to unless you have looked at the whole lot.

.          P-117



   A.   In the cases that we examined.  I explain in the
        introduction to this report.  Clearly we had 18 months
to
        go through 30 years' of Mr Irving's work and so it was
not
        possible to go through the whole lot in its entirety.
So
        we had to be selective.  I explain in the report the
        principles on which we selected the material, which
was
        not going for the weak points but trying to go for his
        strongest arguments, and in those areas we did not
find
        occasions where he used accepted and legitimate
methods of
        historical research, exposition and interpretation,
taking
        the three things together as a whole.
   Q.   It is a bit tortuous because really what you are
saying is
        that the areas you have selected for criticism are not
        areas where you would praise Mr Irving?
   A.   No, that is right, though I did not know that in
advance.
   Q.   Who told you which passages to go for, as it were?
   A.   No.  Well, that is to say, as I explain here, I
decided
        obviously to look at the question of Holocaust denial
and
        whether it was legitimate to ----

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