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Shofar FTP Archive File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day016.17

Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day016.17
Last-Modified: 2000/07/20

   MR IRVING:  Professor, believe me, I do not want to stampede
        you into giving an ill-considered answer because it does
        not help the court one bit.  So let us now move on to the
        middle of December, shall we say?  You are familiar with
        the entry in the Goebbels diary of, I believe,
        13th relating to a speech that Hitler had made to
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Was this speech by Hitler
to the Gauleiters which was, in
        fact, made the previous day, December 12th 1941,
in any
        way different from the old familiar Adolf Hitler
        gramophone record (as I always call it) in which
he harked
        back to his prewar speech?
   A.   It does seem to be more
than just I had predicted this in
        the sense that ----
   Q.   And now it is happening?
   A.   Now it is happening now.
There is a greater
        presentationist element in it, I think -- I would
        look at the text to point out.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Can we find it?  I have lost
it because
        everything is in such a scattered ----

.          P-122

   MR IRVING:  It would be in Professor Evans'
report, I think, my
   MR RAMPTON:  My Lord, it is in the file, this
new file, at 60
        to 67.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  When you say "this new file"?
   MR RAMPTON:  Well, the Browning file.
   MR IRVING:  Page 67?
   A.   The Browning file is L1?
   MR RAMPTON:  Yes, amongst other things.
   A.   And which is the page?
   MR RAMPTON:  60 onwards, 60 to 67.
   A.   Yes.
   MR IRVING:  Page 64 that we are interested in.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Thank you very much.
   MR IRVING:  In the afternoon the Fuhrer speaks
to the
   A.   Yes, I have it now.
   Q.   That is where the
reference to Hitler's speech begins,
        I believe?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Do we have this in English or
   MR RAMPTON:  It is ----
   MR IRVING:  Then on page 66 is the passage that
the Defence
        relies on, I believe.
   MR RAMPTON:  Yes, but it is in English, my Lord,
I think a
        large part of it is in Evans' report, but as I do
not have
        that here, I cannot tell your Lordship exactly
where to

.          P-123

        find it.
   MR IRVING:  Do you have that passage Professor?
Page 66 or 498
        of the printed text?  It is the final paragraph:
        reference to the Jewish problem, the Fuhrer has
decided to
        make tabula rasa" or a clean table.  "He
prophesized to
        the Jews that if they would bring about World War
        more, then they would experience their own
destruction and
        this was not just an empty phrase".  That is
probably all
        we need to read of that.
   A.   Yes.  If one compares it,
say, to Goebbels in August and
        they talk about the Fuhrer had prophesized, "The
        Jews are paying now, the others, they will pay
        there is still a prophecy element.  Here it is no
        what will happen in the future, but it is cast as
if, when
        they said, "The Fuhrer has decided", it is cast as
        things have already been decided, not as if there
is a
        process of decision going on.
                  So, in that sense, it is not the same
        record because the August still has a future
        element.  This one, everything is orientated
towards or at
        least has the tone that all decisions have been
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am so sorry.  The documents
in the shape
        they are in, I do not know, there are pages of
German and
        there is no indication that I can see of what this
   MR IRVING:  My Lord, it is page 498 ----
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  No, I have the page, but is
this from?

.          P-124

   MR IRVING:  It is the final paragraph on that
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, I know, but what is the
whole of the
        page and, indeed, what are the whole of the
preceding six
   MR IRVING:  It is the Goebbels diary of December
13th 1941.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It is Goebbels diary.  I see.
   A.   Yes, and the question was,
did I find this a repetition of
        the same kind of speech Hitler had made before
        to his prophecy, and I was recalling a document we
do not
        have before us which was a Goebbels entry from
August in
        which I pointed out there was still "and someone
will pay
        in the future", well, here it is, it has been
decided.  So
        I was disagreeing with Mr Irving that it was the
same old
        gramophone record.
   MR IRVING:  Our problem is that the August
Goebbels entry is
        not before the court and has not been submitted to
        court either in the bundles or in the experts'
reports, so
        we cannot really rely upon that.
   MR RAMPTON:  If your Lordship would like a
translation, it is
        to be found on page 337 at paragraph 8 of the
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Thank you very much.
   MR IRVING:  I am not going to ask you about the
Hans Frank
        speech  ----
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Do you mind pausing a second
just whilst
        I catch up?

.          P-125

   MR RAMPTON:  The German is set out in note 46 at
the bottom of
        the page.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I have the German all right,
yes.  You
        interpret that, Professor, as being a reference to
        decision which has been taken and it is a decision
        systematically to exterminate?
   A.   The question that Mr
Irving had asked was, did I find this
        a repetition of the frequent references to his
        and "Was it the same old gramophone record?" was
        phrase.  I said, no, I did not think so because
between a
        previous Goebbels entry describing a Hitler
reference to
        the prophecy and this one, I have said there is a
        of tone and a change of vocabulary.  So I
        I said this does not, this is not the same kind of
        reference to something in the future.  And so I
happen to
        think that it is the point at which Hitler makes
        that even though the war will now go on longer,
        nonetheless, they will proceed with the
extermination.  Up
        until that point they used two phrases "after the
war" and
        "next spring".  After Pearl Harbour, one has to
        which of those two it will be and, in my opinion,
this is
        the point at which Hitler says it will be next
spring even
        though it will no longer be after the war.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Thank you very much.
   MR IRVING:  Professor, I will now have to bore
you by asking
        you to look at the actual German used.  Is this

.          P-126

        passage in the subjunctive in German, indicating
        speech or could it be Goebbels himself writing his
        words here, so to speak?
   A.   It is not in subjunctive,
but I do not know that that
        would exclude that he is writing an easier ----
   Q.   Let me put it this way
around:  if in the second line he
        had written "Er hat den Juden prophezeit" but "er
habe den
        Juden prophezeit", then it would be beyond doubt,
would it
        not, that he was quoting Hitler?
   A.   That would indicate that
he was paraphrasing very closely,
        but this would not exclude the possibility, and
        I think that is what it is, is a, you know,
writing down
        what Hitler had said.
   Q.   Are you familiar with
reading the Goebbels diaries in
        English or in German as a source?  Not
        familiar, but have you used them quite a lot.
   A.   I have used them, but I
have not read through all of
        them.  I do not know the entire corpus but I have
   Q.   Would you agree that it is
sometimes difficult to
        distinguish when Goebbels is referring to what
        has told him and when his only little benevolent
        takes over?
   A.   I do not think I could
answer that.
   MR RAMPTON:  My Lord, may I interrupt?  This
might be a
        convenient moment.  Mr Irving said just now that

.          P-127

        earlier entry of 19th August 1941 is not in the
        documents.  It is twice in the Evans' report.  It
is at
        page 410 at paragraph 7.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  But not in this J1?
   MR IRVING:  I am indebted to you.
   MR RAMPTON:  Perhaps I should read it out.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Hang on.  If we are going to
have to find
        it  ----
   MR RAMPTON:  Yes, page 410 of Evans, my Lord.
The witness's
        memory is, fortunately, very accurate, but it is
        worth just looking at.  This is Evans' translation
on 19th
        August 1941:  "We speak about the Jewish problem.
        Fuhrer is convinced that his former prophecy in
        Reichstag, that, if Jewry succeeded once more in
        a world war, it would end with the annihilation of
        Jews, is being confirmed.  It is being rendered
true in
        these weeks and months with a certainty that seems
        uncanny.  In the East the Jews have to pay the
price; in
        Germany they have paid it already in part and in
        they will have to pay yet more.  Their last refuge
        North America; and there they will also to pay
some time,
        sooner or later".
   MR RAMPTON:  I am sorry that Professor Browning
has not got
        that in front of him.

.          P-128

   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Thank you very much.
   MR IRVING:  The passage is, in fact, also in the
        biography.  Unless your Lordship feels it
        I would prefer not to deal with the Hans Frank
meeting at
        this point.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Take your own course.
   MR IRVING:  Yes.  We dealt with it pretty
exhaustively I think
        already in my cross-examination, and I am not sure
        unless the witness has specific points he wishes
to make
        about it, the Cabinet meeting in Cracau, you will
        remember, on December 16th where Hans Frank
referred to,
         "What does Berlin imagine?   Do they imagine we
        housing the Jews in housing estates on the Eastern
   A.   I would only add on that,
that earlier in the entry before
        he gets to that speech, he refers to his visit
   Q.   Yes.
   A.   And whether that refers to
the Gauleiter meeting or the
        possibility that he had a separate private talk
        Hitler, we do not know, but "besuch bei", you
know, "von
        Fuhrer" would indicate a strong possibility that
he met
        with Hitler privately, as he usually did when he
came back
        to Berlin, in which case then he went off and gave
        speech, it was not just listening to the Gauleiter
        after a conference, possibly after a conference,

.          P-129

        Hitler as well.

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