Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day015.09 Last-Modified: 2000/07/20 Q. Illicit and would you accept the word rather shabby? . P-74 A. Yes. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Rampton, I just want to be clear about this. Shabby, something not to be proud of, but is it the case that is put to Mr Irving that he broke an agreement? MR RAMPTON: It must be, if he uses the word "illicitly", it must be that he knows impliedly he does not have permission, which is a breach of an agreement. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can we ask Mr Irving that. Did you know that what you were doing amounted to breach of an agreement ---- A. I disagree in view of the fact ---- Q. --- with the archivists? A. --- in view of the act that they allowed us to borrow the plates anyway, it was obviously neither here nor there to them, and there was certainly no agreement either verbal or written. MR RAMPTON: There is no written or verbal agreement, but - --- A. On the contrary. Q. --- as I think you told us earlier, no self-respecting historian would deliberately remove such valuable material from an archive without the permission of the archivist in the ordinary way? A. I do not think that I damaged the world of historians one bit. In fact I think I benefited them by having done it the way I did. Q. That is not an answer to my question, but it really does . P-75 not matter. Are you quite certain in your own mind that at no stage during the trip of these plates illicitly taking plates from Moscow to London, they were in any danger of being damaged en route? A. You should have seen the packaging I put them in. Q. Where did you put them, in a suitcase or your hand luggage? A. They were put into this hard suitcase down there. They were heavily wrapped in foam packaging and with layers of cardboard. They were safer with me than they had been for 55 years in the Russian archives. Q. Hand luggage? A. Hand luggage, and they were safer with me than they had been in those flimsy boxes for 55 years with the Russians boxes, in which boxes many of the plates were already broken. Q. Had you any idea what means might be used to test the plates for authenticity when you got home? A. Yes. It was obvious they were going to test the plates glass by probably spectroscopy or by similar non- invasive methods, and similarly also the emulsion. They would have chosen the part of the emulsion that was not written upon, so to speak. Q. Well, in the event the emulsion test was not done for fear of damage, that is right, is it not? A. If you say so. . P-76 Q. I am only telling you what the Sunday Times tells me on a piece of paper. A. We produced the reports in discovery from Pilkington and from the laboratories, the photographic laboratories. We carried out the appropriate or rather the Sunday Times carried out the appropriate test. Q. You broke your journey I think in Munich, did you not? A. The flight to Moscow was made from Munich because there were ---- Q. Yes, but did you not break your journey and go to Rome? A. On June 9th? Q. Yes. That was from Moscow? A. No. On June 9th I flew from Munich to Rome and back. Q. I think it was 13th. If we look at the diary page B10 ---- A. Yes. Q. --- I think you went on 13th from Munich to Rome and back again? A. Yes. Q. Where were the plates when you went to Rome? A. They were with me at all times. No, I am sorry. I am sorry, they were not. When I went to Rome I carried just a very small bag with me containing not even my typewriter. It contained just my overnight things for the stay in the university and then to come back to Munich, and I left that case in the hotel safe. . P-77 Q. With the plates in it? A. Yes. Q. You were not concerned there might be a fire or something of that kind or are the safes fireproof? A. Well, that thought did not cross my mind admittedly. Q. While you were in Munich, can you turn the page to B11, four paragraphs down ---- A. Yes. Q. --- you say that you phoned Susie, that is Susie Terplar, from airport? A. Yes. Q. "Book me into ... room 727. 7 p.m. back down to her and phoned Altans." Who is Altans? A. He is a young German hot head. Q. What do you mean by a "hot head"? A. He turned out to be a hot head. Q. What is a hot head in this context? A. A typical -- a political hot head. He started off pretty level and respectable, but he gradually flaked out. Q. In which direction does his hot headedness lead him? A. Well, over the map really. He was right-winger, he was a left-winger. He went to Israel. He ended up in the pay of the German Intelligence services. It is difficult to fix him on the map at all. Q. Was he on the right at this stage in history? A. I do not know what you would call the right. . P-78 MR JUSTICE GRAY: If he is arranging a big meeting for Ernst Zundel, it is fair to say he is not on the left. MR RAMPTON: Put it this way, anything ---- A. I think he was a revisionist. I think that is a fair word to pin on him. Q. Certainly I would accept that he was a revisionist. By "on the right" I mean somebody who would not approve of coloured immigration into Germany or anywhere else in Europe. A. I do not think he would actively advocate it. Q. "He is delighted to hear my voice. Has arranged a big meeting for Ernst Zundel." That is our old friend from Toronto, is it not? A. I cannot see any reference in this paragraph to coloured immigration. Q. No. I ask you a question. You have answered it. "Has arranged a big meeting for Ernst Zundel"? A. Yes. Q. That is our old friend from Toronto, is it not? A. That is correct, yes. Q. "To address this evening at the Zunfthouse restaurant. Would I come and speak too. Answer: Provided you take three boxes of my books along to sell", and then you add the wry note, "All's well that ends well." A. Yes. Q. Did Mr Zundel speak at this meeting? . P-79 A. I do not know. Q. Why? You were there. A. Well, I have a record or a habit of not bothering to attend other people's speeches if I can possibly avoid it, and if I have had an exhausting day flying down to Rome and back I would not have hung around to listen to somebody speaking. Q. I am not sure I can really accept that answer, I am afraid. A. You were not listening what I just said. I had had an exhausting flight down to Rome and back under the circumstances you are familiar with and I was not likely to hang around to listen to somebody speak. Q. I am sorry, what time in the evening does Zundel speak then or do you not even know that? A. Why should I know after eight years? Q. I will tell you. Look at the bottom of the page: "8 p.m. taxi Zunfthouse, around 120 people packed into the restaurant, much applause, Zundel spoke"? A. Yes. Q. "Then after an interval I spoke half an hour on Goebbels' plans"? A. Yes. Q. You were then when Zundel was speaking? A. I was certainly in the restaurant, but that does not mean to say that I am listening to what he is saying. If you . P-80 know what he has said you can put it to me and I will say, yes, I heard him say this it or not. Q. I have no idea what he said. I am asking you. You were there. A. I confirmed from this diary I was in the restaurant. It is a very big restaurant like a typical German beer hall. Q. Mr Irving, you told us a moment ago that you would not have got there in time to here Mr Zundel speak because you would not have been interested. A. That is not exactly what I said. Q. It is simply false statement. A. I am sorry, I do not make false statements under oath. I am careful not to and the words you have used are not the words I said. I did not say "I did not get there in time to hear him speak". Q. You tried to give us the impression you were not there when Zundel spoke. A. No. I gave the impression that if I have had an exhausting day flying to Rome and back, exhausting for the reasons you are familiar with, then I would not have hung around to hear somebody speaking. I would have gone and tucked myself down somewhere with a glass of beer or with a cup of coffee and read the local newspaper. Q. "Then after an interval I spoke half an hour on the Goebbels' finds. I one 'plate'"? A. Yes. . P-81 Q. What does that mean? A. We had had some prints made, I had had some prints made that day in the Munich archives I think, in the Institute. Q. This is one of the borrowed plates? A. That is correct, yes. Q. That you had printed? A. That is right. If I put it in quotation marks then that tells me I did not show the actual glass, but I showed the print I had made of it. Q. Who took the plates back to Moscow after they had been tested in this country? A. It should be evident. I think it was July 4th or July 3rd -- July 2nd the two slides were legally borrowed or returned by Sasha during the date of the archives. Q. Can we turn on ---- A. "July 3rd at 11.58 a.m. I walked out. He was seated in a car across the street." That was Jonathan Bastable who had arrived from London as a courier bringing the plates from the laboratories. Q. Carry on, will you. A. Still July 3rd: At 11.58 a.m. I walked out. He was seated in a car across the street. He handed the glass plates back to me. I asked him to conduct the interviews requested by Andrew Neil re the authenticity of the provenance of the microfiche". In other words, he was to speak with the Russian archivists to ask what they knew . P-82 about where they came from, the glass plates. Q. I will read the next bit if you are not willing to. A. I beg your pardon? Q. I wanted you to read the next paragraph. It is my fault. A. "I replaced the two plates, March to September 1934, in the box of 13, making a total of 15. Unfortunately, the archivist told me today that the archives will not under their new agreement with 'the Germans' let me see the other big boxes again. Operation stable door, I already have nearly all that was necessary". Q. I can understand that. It does not need an explanation. So you put back the two plates that you borrowed from London, is that right? A. That I borrowed for London and had now come back from London and they are put back where they belonged. Q. After about three weeks? A. That is correct. Q. We will go, if we may, to the bottom of the page at 1.50. A. "At 1.50 p.m. archivist asked me outside into the corridor and with embarrass asked me if I had taken plates out of the collection. I replied that we had borrowed plates with permission but had returned all those that we had borrowed intact." Q. That was not true, was it? A. Well, it was, I suppose, suppressio vale rather than suppressio falsi. I have no original items from their . P-83 collection in my possession. Only the copies we or they had made. I then voluntarily hand wrote a declaration stating this and had it translated into Russian and signed both text and took a photocopy. Q. So, technically speaking, that was true of course. A. Yes. Q. Do you know the legal, it is a boring expression, but do you know the lawyers' expression swearing by the card? A. Swearing by? Q. The card? A. No. That is legalese.
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