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Shofar FTP Archive File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day015.06

Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day015.06
Last-Modified: 2000/07/20

   Q.   And this permission was granted on more than one occasion?
   A.   To the best of my knowledge, it may have been, but my
        memory is very vague on that part.
   Q.   Very well.  Did we take two plates, or did I take two
        plates, back to England by the same method for the purpose
        of evaluation?
   A.   I am not sure what you mean by "the same method".
   Q.   In other words, without permission?
   A.   There was some question of whether or not permission had
        been granted at that stage.  Certainly two plates were
        taken back to England and were copied and as soon as
        valuation -- primarily because at the time we were very
        concerned about the authenticity.  The Sunday Times had
        been caught with its pants down over the Hitler diaries.
        It did not want to repeat the same thing with Mr Goebbels.
   Q.   I should really have identified you formally at the
        beginning of this examination-in-chief by saying you were
        acting on behalf of the Sunday Times at all times on this
   A.   That is correct, yes -- in a freelance capacity.
   Q.   In a freelance capacity, but you were the go-between
        between myself and Mr Andrew Neil?
   A.   Yes, after you had initially made the contact with him, yes.
   Q.   And the Sunday Times quite properly insisted on having the

.          P-47

        plates authenticated?
   A.   Very much so.  That was our major concern at that stage,
        to make sure that these were genuine.
   Q.   Yes.  To the best of your knowledge, did we have these
        plates tested by a glass company, a glass laboratory?
   A.   Yes.  I remember quite clearly that they were tested.
        I think possibly it was Pilkingtons.  They were tested to
        make sure that they were of an age and manufacture that
        they purported to be.
   Q.   Did we have the emulsion of those photographic plates or
        did the Sunday Times emulsion of those photographic plates?
   A.   Every possible test was done with a great concern about
        the authenticity, and at no stage did we want to be seen
        that we had got diaries that could be called into question
        as to their genuine nature.
   Q.   Did you at any time see me handing the plates in a way
        that might have caused severe damage to them?
   A.   Certainly not handling, apart from the occasion when they
        were removed.  You did not handle them in any way, but
        I do think that the treatment on that night was perhaps
        unwise, to say the least.
   Q.   Well, the elicit nature of the removal?
   A.   Sorry?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Irving, can I ask this, did Mr Irving
        explain to you why he brought two of the plates, or

.          P-48

        whatever it was, back to England?
   A.   Yes.  It was clearly understood at the time that was for
        the purposes of establishing the authenticity and, as I
        say, it was part of the whole agreement that every check
        had to be made to be certain that these were genuine
        microfiche plates.
   Q.   Did you know in advance that he was going to do that?
   A.   Yes.
   MR IRVING:  I have no further questions, my Lord.
                  < Cross-Examined by MR RAMPTON, QC.
   MR RAMPTON:  I have very few.  Mr Millar, can we just look
        your witness statement, please?  It is probably best
        Mr Millar is given the Moscow file.
   A.   Sorry, could I ask you to speak up slightly?
   Q.   Yes, I am sorry.  It sounds very discourteous, I was
        trying enquire -- your Lordship has a Moscow file,
        I think?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I do not know.  Has Mr Irving had this?
   MR RAMPTON:  Oh, yes.  On Tuesday, I think.
   MR IRVING:  What document are you going to refer to?
   MR RAMPTON:  I am, first of all, going to refer to Mr
        witness statement which is tab 3 of C4 -- not that
        Mr Millar, I am sorry.  I want you to have both.  It
        not your fault at all.  There should be a file there
        marked C4 containing witness statements.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  There is not, so can he have a C4?  It is

.          P-49

        blue, I think.
   MR RAMPTON:  It is tab 3, I think, of that witness
        This is very confusing, Mr Millar.  It is certainly
        your fault.  That is your witness statement?
   A.   I have that anyway, yes.
   Q.   You have that anyway?  There we go.  You did not need
        file at all.  Can you turn to the second page of your
        witness statement, please?  In the middle of the page
        there is a paragraph which begins "On one occasion",
        you see that?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   I am going to read it.  "On one occasion, after the
        archives for the day, to my extreme annoyance, Mr
        told me that he had secretly removed two plates from
        archives to show to Andrew Neil, the Sunday Times
        who was also in Moscow at the time.  These plates he
        concealed in a James Bond-style fashion outside the
        Institute.  I told him this was foolish and risked
        jeopardising the whole agreement - an opinion he
        to be rather 'wimpish'.  I insisted they be replaced
        next day, which, to the best of my knowledge, they
                  Then if you skip a paragraph you see that,
so as
        far as you were aware, you were not, I do not think, a
        party to this directly, the same thing seems to have
        happened with two more plates; is that right?

.          P-50

   A.   That is correct.
   Q.   Yes.  I only want to ask you two questions about that
        paragraph that I read out.  First of all, are its
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   You have to say "yes" because of the microphone.
   A.   I am sorry, yes, they are true.
   Q.   It is a recording microphone.  Thank you.  The only
        question is this.  What do you mean when you write,
         "These plates he had concealed in a James Bond-style
        fashion outside the Institute"?
   A.   He had, to the best of my recollection, prepared two
        postcards which were slightly larger than the glass
        plates, or of cardboard material, one of which
        had a postcard picture on it, had wrapped the plates
        these and left them on a piece of waste ground about
        yards from the Institute.
   Q.   So it was clear to you that he knew that he should not
        taking the plates?
   A.   Quite.
   Q.   Then only one other thing:  now will you please take
        other file, the one you were first given, which is
        one, and turn in it to I think it is page A37?  It is
        the front tab of the file.  At A36 you see what the
        document is.  It looks like a document from a memo
        you and John Witheroe to the Editor of the Sunday

.          P-51

        It is dated 2nd July '92.  Do you have that?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   If you turn over to the second page, which is A37, and
        look at paragraph 10:  "We have also carried out our
        handwriting and forensic tests on the glass plates and
        microfilm.  These are not conclusive, but all indicate
        that the plates are not recently made and that the
        is that of Goebbels, although one of the tests seemed
        indicate that they could have been copies.  (We have
        been able to do all tests because this would have
        destroying or severely damaging the plates.  See below
        case this becomes an issue).
                   "Asked how we got hold of two of the plates
        tests, I suggest we fudge it by saying we have been
        supplied with two plates and that they are now safely
        in the archives".
                  I am not criticising you for anything, Mr
         -- apart from anything else, you are not a party to
        action -- but what was it that suggested to you the
        to fudge?
   A.   There was nothing that suggested that we need to fudge
        If you see, it was hypothetical.  The question is if
        are asked.  The point was that the Times, as I repeat,
        Sunday Times was very concerned about authenticity of
        these plates because of the Hitler's Diaries fiasco
        therefore, there was some concern that we should be

.          P-52

        to avoid any mistake again, and the question was
        and how we had got hold of these, we were obviously
        concerned at this time nothing had been made known
        the diaries.  We did not want any other newspapers to
        wind of what we were doing.
   Q.   In particular, you did not want it to be known that
        two plates which you brought back to this country via
        Munich to be tested for authenticity that they had
        nicked -- I know they were returned -- if I may use a
        common expression?
   A.   No, actually.  I am going to disagree.  As far as I
        the two plates that were nicked, as you put it, were
        that were put on the piece of waste land overnight.
   Q.   What about the next two?
   A.   Those were nicked and returned, and that had nothing
to do
        with these -- we are talking about two separate plates
        here and, as you will see from my witness statement, I
        not present at the time the second two plates were
        back to the UK.  I do not know the exact
        I did assume that they were with permission.
   Q.   You assumed they were with permission?
   A.   Yes, I did.
   Q.   Look back at your witness statement, will you, the
        page?  I will put it this way:  do you know now,
        Mr Millar, that they were not taken with permission?
   A.   Sorry, was that a question?

.          P-53

   Q.   Yes, it was.  I am sorry.  It is difficult when I
        am asking you a question and somebody else answers it.
        Mr Millar, you do know now, do you not, that those two
        plates that were brought back to England were not
        with permission?
   A.   No, I do not actually.  I do not know that.
   Q.   I am grateful to Miss Rogers.  In the Moscow file,
        Mr Millar, could you look, in the light of that last
        answer, at page A28 in the front section of the file?
        There is a document whose format is not familiar to
        but I expect you will recognize it.  What is it
        It is headed:  "Catch gubby" -- is it some kind of
        computer print out?
   A.   Sorry?
   Q.   Is it some kind of computer print out?
   A.   Yes, oh, it is.  I recognize it.  Yes, it is ----
   Q.   You do recognize it?
   A.   It is -- yes, I do recognize it.  Indeed, it is an
        internal print out on the Old News International
   Q.   So it is a Sunday Times document?
   A.   It is.
   Q.   Yes, and do you know who wrote it?
   A.   It tells me at the top.  It was, without looking at in
        great detail, if you would like me to take a minute I
        do that, but it appears to have been done on Susan
        Douglas's computer.

.          P-54

   Q.   Yes.  Maybe it was done on her computer, but where
        show get her information from?
   A.   Would you like me to spend a few minutes just reading
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes of course, do.
   MR RAMPTON:  Well, look, just let us hurry up because I do
        want to detain you longer than you need be here.  Can
        just read the third paragraph?
   A.   Actually, I would like to read the whole thing if we
        going to talk about it.
   Q.   OK.
   A.   Yes, I am not familiar with it and, in fact, it is a
        that was composed by myself and Susan Douglas jointly
        submission to Andrew Neil.
   Q.   So may I now read the third paragraph on page A28?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   "Irving has taken liberties in our name in Moscow
        'borrowing' two plates and taking them out of the
        and will shamelessly take more.  I would be very wary,
        I am sure would John and Matthew, of giving any
        over there that Irving represents us in any way except
        this affair.  He is not above trading on our
        for his own profit".  Now, are those your thoughts?
   A.   They are the thoughts of Susan and myself combined,
   Q.   So you were -- I do not blame you for getting in a
         -- then that the second two plates which were brought

.          P-55

        back here were also nicked?
   A.   At the time it certainly appears that I was, yes.
   MR RAMPTON:  Thank you, Mr Millar.

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