Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day014.13 Last-Modified: 2000/07/20 Q. I do not mind, Mr Irving. I want to finish this question before the adjournment. You do not like what is coming, I know, but I am going to do it very, very quickly so that I get my question in: "Because basically international news is a serious thing and I yearn for the old days of Lord Reith when the news reader on the BBC, which was the only channel in those times, wore a dinner jacket and bow tie and rose to the occasion. On great State occasions, one had the satisfaction of knowing not only that the news reader wearing the dinner jacket and the bow tie -- on great State occasions I think it was even a white tie that was called for -- but you had the satisfaction of knowing that the gentleman behind the camera was also wearing a dinner jacket. It gave a certain solid sense of satisfaction that all was well in the best", you should have said "all possible worlds" but it has got missed out, "but now we have women reading out . P-111 news to us"? A. "Now we have women reading out the news to us". Q. Wait, Mr Irving, the good bit is coming. "If they could perhaps have their" ---- A. But this is setting the whole tone of it, you know, you are not enjoying this speech. Q. "If they could perhaps have their own news which they were reading to us I suppose [Laughter], it would be very interesting. [Good-natured female heckling]". So far, Mr Irving, so good. "For the time being, for a transitional period, I would be prepared to accept that the BBC should have a dinner-jacketed gentleman reading the important news to us, followed by a lady reading all the less important news, followed by Trevor McDonald giving us all the latest news about the muggings and the drug busts - [rest lost in loud Laughter and Applause]". Are you not appalled by that? A. Not in the least. This is a funny after dinner speech in the spirit of any stand up comedian on the BBC. We have heard exactly the same comedy from the end of the pier in Brighton. It is exactly the same kind of speech, and if you find that -- even the black audience would not find something like offensive, believe me; and as for which of us two is the racist, I can only refer to the fact that I, unlike the members of the Defence team, employ ethnic minorities without the slightest hesitation ---- . P-112 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, how many times do I need to tell you not to make that comment? It is inappropriate, futile ---- A. Well, if I am being accused of racism, my Lord, I think ---- Q. --- and is doing your cause no good, I can assure you. A. If I am being accused or racism, I think it is highly relevant to find out that I employ ethnic minorities without the slightest hesitation. Q. Well, it is my view that counts and I do not think it is says, so please do not say it again? MR RAMPTON: My Lord, what I would like to do with your Lordship's permission -- there is an awful lot of this -- I have got a very little way, and your Lordship can understand one reason why that is so -- what I would like to do is at 2 o'clock -- it will take a little bit of time to set up -- is show a video of one of Mr Irving's speeches at Tampa, Florida, on 6th October 1995 at a gathering of something called the National Alliance. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Right. We will do that at 2 o'clock. (Luncheon adjournment until 2.00 p.m.) A. May I first apologise for my unruly behaviour on the race matter. I should not have kept making that point. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Do not worry. I do appreciate that it is quite stressful. You have been being cross-examined for . P-113 quite a long time, but I think it is better unsaid. A. Secondly, in view of the fact that I was broadcasting to Australia at five this morning, may I sit during the film? MR JUSTICE GRAY: Of course. Sit any time during your evidence. MR RAMPTON: I hope that goes for me too so far as the film is concerned. My Lord, this is a video tape recording of a speech or talk, call it what one likes, by Mr Irving at Tampa, Florida, on 6th October 1995. The transcript, I think, is K3, tab 20. The plan is to do the beginning, and there is a specific reason for that, and then go to the section which your Lordship has in the extract at page page 14. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Thank you very much. A. My Lord, is there any reason why they are just showing this section and not the whole tape? MR RAMPTON: I do not mind. It takes an hour. I have absolutely no views about that at all, my Lord. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Why not watch the extract and then we can go on the written page to any other passage you want. A. Very well. MR RAMPTON: If it makes Mr Irving uncomfortable, I would much rather ---- MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am just concerned about time, Mr Irving. Explain to me why you want the whole thing shown. . P-114 A. Your Lordship will probably have glanced through it and you will have seen that---- Q. No, I have not, actually. A. I am sorry. In fact, I remarked to one of Mr Rampton's instructing solicitors as I came upstairs in the elevator that I was astonished that they had chosen this particular video tape because that is precisely the one that I would have wanted shown. I had apprehended they were going to show the whole tape and not just a fragment. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I see. You think this in a way gives the flavour of the sort of speeches you were making? A. Unless they are intending showing lots of extracts from lots of speeches, then I would prefer one entire to be shown rather than just one fragment taken out of context. MR JUSTICE GRAY: If Mr Irving puts it like that, that in a way this would be a good sample speech, I am inclined to think he is entitled to have the whole thing played. MR RAMPTON: I quite agree. I have no feelings about that. Video is shown. Break in video at this point. A. I then leave the room so there is not much point in showing the rest of it. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think there may be. MR RAMPTON: Yes. (Video continued). . P-115 MR RAMPTON: There is a small break. A. That is when I then leave the room. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think I know what the point is. MR RAMPTON: If your Lordship has the point in the transcript, then we do not need to see the tape because it is at the beginning of the transcript as well as the end. MR JUSTICE GRAY: We are stopping? MR RAMPTON: That will do, if your Lordship is satisfied that what I need is in the transcript. MR JUSTICE GRAY: You have laid the ground for a question. MR RAMPTON: Yes. Mr Irving, do you remember that earlier on in this case we asked you some written questions, or we requested some information? A. Yes. Q. And do you remember that we asked you questions about the national alliance? A. Very clearly. I remember very clearly what answer I gave too. Q. I asked you a number of questions, general and specific, about the national alliance. You gave some replies. My Lord, these are in bundle A, tab 8. Mr Irving should be handed bundle A, and he should turn to tab 8 where he gave some answers. If turn it to the seventh page -- have you got your answers, Mr Irving -- it is a document which calls itself "some answers". A. Yes. . P-116 Q. If you turn to page 7 of those answers, you will find a page which begins with the answer number ---- A. Tab 9, that is correct. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. MR RAMPTON: Tab 9. That is my fault. 23 and 25 are the relevant answers. You said this, Mr Irving: "I have no association with the body known to the Defendants as the National Alliance as such or whatsoever." A. What number are you? Q. Number 23. "I have no association with the body known to the Defendants as the National Alliance as such or whatsoever". A. Yes. Q. "I cannot rule out the members of that organization which I take to be a legal organization in the United States. They have attended functions at which I spoke. Accordingly I have no knowledge of, and I take no interest in what materials it publishes or distributes. I have no knowledge whatsoever of the character of the National Alliance other than what is now claimed by the witnesses for the Defendants nor of the publications which it is alleged to publish or advertise"? A. Yes. Q. "I do not agree that I have spoken at any National Alliance meetings. It might be that on occasions a gentleman who was a member of the National Alliance . P-117 offered to organize a lecture for me. In other words he undertook to find a suitable room but I then circulated my entire local mailing list to provide an audience. No doubt he brought his friends as well. It will be seen that in all these photographs of these events which were produced at trial there is no kind of National Alliance presence"? A. Yes. Q. Mr Irving, that was a false answer, was it not? A. Both answers are absolutely true. I draw your attention to the fact that your expert witness, Professor Evans, having read my entire diaries from start to finish, has lamented the fact that he has found not one single reference to the National Alliance. Am I correct? Q. I have no idea what Professor Evans ---- A. I am telling you. That is the answer to your question. Q. It is not the answer to my question by any manner of means, Mr Irving. We are going to show a film of you in a moment wearing a National Alliance -- never mind that. Look at the beginning of the tab? A. Do you wish to have that part struck off the record? Q. No. It is a misunderstanding by me. I do not have things struck off the record. That happens in the United States, Mr Irving. A. There is a fragment of a sentence there about my wearing something. . P-118 MR JUSTICE GRAY: On we go. On we go. MR RAMPTON: On we go, Mr Irving. Tab 20, please, of K3, which is the transcript of this last film we have been watching. A. Oh, yes. Q. Right at the beginning. Look at the beginning of it please, Mr Irving. A. Yes. Q. "The first transcribed speech. Ladies and gentlemen, on behalf of the National Alliance and National Vanguard Books, I would like to proudly welcome Mr David Irving". A. Yes. Q. You were not in the room at the time, of course? A. I was there at the time. Q. On behalf of the National Alliance? A. It would have meant nothing whatsoever to me. There is no reason at all why I should have remembered that phrase. I have no idea what the National Alliance is. I still do not know what it is. If somebody introducing me says I am here on behalf of some legion of something or some alliance of something, it is instantly forgotten by me two minutes later. I was there at a meeting which had been organized with my mailing list and the evidence for that is in the following paragraph: "Ladies and gentlemen, there are few familiar faces here this evening". In other words, all my own friends off my own mailing list. . P-119 Q. It would not be right to suggest that, including this meeting, you have attended no less than eight National Alliance events between 1990 and 1998? A. I have attended no events that have been organized, to my knowledge, as National Alliance events and, had I attended such events, then it would have been described as such in my private diaries, quite clearly. Q. What do you think that was? A. This was a function which had been organized by an individual for me to attend and to which I had invited my entire Florida mailing list. Q. "On behalf of the National Alliance and National Vanguard Books I would like to proudly welcome Mr David Irving"? A. He had a table there no doubt on which he was selling books. That was no doubt the return that he got. But I have no idea what the National Alliance is and I supposed 90 per cent of the people in this audience also have no idea what the National Alliance is.
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