Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day014.07
Last-Modified: 2000/07/20

   Q.   My Lord, what I am going to do now is refer to three
        documents -- they are different documents -- which Mr
        Irving told us in evidence that he had never seen.  The
        first one is the letter from Muller, the head of the
        Gestapo, the order rather, to the Einsatzgruppen, all four
        of them, of 1st August 1941, which says, in effect, that
        the Fuhrer will be getting continuous reports about the
        work of the Einsatzgruppen in the East.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Where is it, just in case it is necessary to
        look at it?
   MR RAMPTON:  My Lord, it is in Professor Browning's documents.
        It is referred to by him.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That will do.
   MR RAMPTON:  On page 7 of his report.  I think my memory is
        that he has written it out in translation.  Unfortunately,
        I do not have it here.  It is actually in H4 (ii).
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think that, unless Mr Irving wants it dug
        out, this will probably do.
   MR RAMPTON:  I have given a sort of a translation.
   A.   I am not normally very picky, my Lord, but in this
        particular case it would be nice sometime to see the

.          P-56

        original or a facsimile of it.
   MR RAMPTON:  I agree.  I do believe that Mr Irving should be
        given H4 (ii).  That is actually Dr Longerich's documents
        but it is the same document.
   A.   It is a document from the Russian archives?
   Q.   Yes, and it is the first sentence of the writing which
        I am interested in.  It is footnote 143, in handwriting at
        the bottom right hand corner of the page.  Do you see it?
        It is a copy.
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   It says so.  Did I more or less translate the first
        sentence correctly?
   A.   Oh dear. I can only say "oh dear" about this document.
        Where does it come from?
   Q.   I can tell you that, Mr Irving. It has been available in
        the Munich Institute of Contemporary History IFZ with the
        reference number FA 213/3 since before 1982.
   A.   That does not tell us so much about the provenance though,
        does it?
   Q.   Why?  What is the matter with it?
   A.   Well, I mean, normally you would have either a Nuremberg
        document number in the top right hand corner or some
        indication of provenance and it would not contain German
        spelling mistakes.
   Q.   Why not?  Do soldiers not make mistakes when they write,
        or civil servants?  Goodness me.  We have spotted several

.          P-57

        already in the original documents in this case, have we not?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Are you saying that this not an authentic document?
   MR RAMPTON:  Another fake, I think.  He does not like it so it
        is another fake.
   A.   I am seeing this for the first time, of course, but
        I noticed straightaway at the bottom line that
        interestingly it does use the SS runes after the word
        "Muller", which implies that it is a wartime document.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think I am looking at the wrong document.
   A.   My Lord, it is footnote 143.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I see.  There are two 143s.
   MR RAMPTON:  I am sorry, it is a copy.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It is page 295?
   MR RAMPTON:  That is right, yes.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  There is another footnote 143.
   MR RAMPTON:  I am sorry about that.  Both Dr Longerich and
        Professor Browning make reference to this.
   A.   It may be that I am more picky than they are when I am
        dealing with what looks like a duplicated copy of a
        document.
   Q.   Never mind.  It is a what?
   A.   It looks like a duplicated copy of a document, in other
        words on an old fashioned Gestetner duplicator, so to
        speak, but it has the SS runes on it after the name

.          P-58

        Muller, which implies, or should be taken to imply, that
        it is a wartime document rather than a postwar one.
   Q.   I would guess that it is.  Why not?
   A.   What worries me is the word "verschlussel" in the fifth
        line, which is neither fish nor fowl in German.  It is
        "verschlussel".  It is not "verschlusselt," it is not
        "verschlusselung".  It is a word that does not exist by
        itself.
   Q.   Well tell me what it means.
   A.   If it was completed it could be to be coded or cyphered,
        encyphered, but it is just, as I said, wrong.
   Q.   Mr Irving, suppose that there was an N instead of an L,
        would that make a difference?
   A.   It would have to be after the L.  It is a strange error,
        I would say that.  If it is genuine, then the next thing
        I would point to, of course, is the fact that it has a
        very low classification, just G, secret.
   Q.   Mr Irving, I am not asking you about the document.
   A.   All right.
   Q.   When I asked you about this document before, it was ages
        ago, you denied ever having seen it.
   A.   Now I am seeing it for the first time, yes.
   Q.   So you say.
   A.   I beg your pardon.  I am on oath and, if I say I am seeing
        this for the first time, then I am seeing it for the first time.

.          P-59

   Q.   Mr Irving, you have said many things on oath which
        I simply do not accept, so we can get past that childish
        stage of this interrogation.
   A.   I think this is probably the time to have it out.  Where
        you think I am lying on oath, then you should say so.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  He is saying so.
   MR RAMPTON:  I am doubting it, Mr Irving.
   A.   My Lord, he is not saying when.  He is just alleging in
        broad terms.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Irving, that is not right.  Let me make it
        clear to you.
   MR RAMPTON:  Will you please wait. I do not do that.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  We are all talking at once.  Mr Rampton, I
        was talking.
   MR RAMPTON:  I am sorry. It might be valuable if your Lordship
        reminded Mr Irving of my duty.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, I am going to.  I think it is fair to
        say that every time Mr Rampton is challenging the truth or
        credibility of what you are saying, he has made that clear
        in his questions.
   A.   He is saying that he does not believe ----
   Q.   Please wait.  If you think that he is not making his case
        clear at any point, then you are entitled to say, what are
        you asking me, Mr Rampton?  What are you putting to me?
        But on this particular document, I would like to know
        whether you do or do not challenge its authenticity.

.          P-60

   A.   I think for the purpose of today I will accept that it is
        genuine, but it has these blemishes to which I may refer
        later on.  But to suggest that I have seen this document
        before is inaccurate and untrue.
   MR RAMPTON:  I have not said that yet, Mr Irving.
   A.   You said "so you say" and the record shows that.
   Q.   I do say "so you say" because I doubt your answer, and
        I will tell you precisely now why I doubt it, as I always
        do, because I am not allowed to make that suggestion
        unless I have a basis for doing so.  It has been in Gerald
        Fleming's book "Hitler und die endlosung" ever since
        1982.
   A.   I have not read that book.
   Q.   You have not read that book?
   A.   It has been sent to me twice by Gerald Fleming, once in
        English and once in German, and I have not read that book.
   Q.   Are you not interested in books which contain references
        to documents which focus on your very field of historical
        activity, that is to say the connection between Adolf
        Hitler and the endlosung?
   A.   The reason why is because Gerald Fleming and I had a very
        lively correspondence and he was constantly sending me
        copies of his latest documents.  It is was unlikely there
        were going to be documents in the book which he had not
        already sent me months earlier.
   Q.   You told us near the beginning of the case that Gerald

.          P-61

        Fleming has done some very good work on one particular
        episode, not this.  That was Bruns and Altemeyer.
   A.   Yes he corresponded with me about it.  You have seen my
        entire file of correspondence with Gerald Fleming and you
        know exactly how detailed that correspondence is.  It is
        about 4 inches thick.
   Q.   Do you possess a copy of "Hitler und die endlosung"?
   A.   Yes, two copies.
   Q.   And you have never looked at them?
   A.   I may have looked for a specific document in it.  I seem
        to remember looking to see -- that is right.  When I wrote
        my web site page on General Bruns, I checked up on the
        spellings of the names and the correct identification of
        Altemeyer and people like that, and I used it as a
        reference work.  I looked in the index, in other words,
        for Bruns and Altemeyer and got the data out of that, one
        or other of the editions.
   Q.   How much time have you spent in the Munich archive, the
        IFZ if that is what it is?
   A.   Until I was banned in 1993?  I was there from 1963 for 30 years.
   Q.   If Gerald Fleming found it in the Munich archive before
        his book was published while he was writing it, it was
        published in 1982 and you spent time in that archive,
        I know not how many days or hours or weeks, looking for
        documents about Hitler.  Do you expect us to believe that

.          P-62

        you did not come across this document?
   A.   Both.  I looked for documents back in 1964 and 1965 and
        I hired a lady whose name almost certainly will be
        mentioned later on in today's hearing to do the research
        for me, to re-research the files for me, looking for
        material on Adolf Hitler and the final solution, and
        certainly neither of us came across that document.
        However, your researchers could have established if I saw
        that particular file, because the IFZ keeps a detailed log
        of who sees each file, just as the Public Record Office does.
   Q.   Down the line that may happen, Mr Irving.  Now I want to
        turn to another document, which I find even more puzzling,
        if I may say so.
   A.   You are implying that the IFZ has a record of my having
        seen that document, which is untrue.
   Q.   No, I am not implying that at all. I have absolutely no
        idea.  All I would say, if you want me----
   A.   That was the innuendo of "down the line this may happen",
        was it not?
   Q.   It may do if we look.  That is all that means.  All I will
        say at the moment, if you want me comment, is this, that
        I do not find your answer very convincing.  But that is
        not my task, it is his Lordship's task.
   A.   I am sorry I do not convince you but it is your duty to
        come forward with plausible evidence to the court that I

.          P-63

        am lying, and you cannot because I have not seen this
        document before.
   Q.   You have two copies of Gerald Fleming's book.
   A.   I have two copies of Fleming's book, one in German and one
        in English.
   Q.   You write about Hitler and his connection with the
        endlosung.  You spent hours in the Munich archive and this
        is a key document which you have missed.
   A.   I read the reviews by Tom Bower and by Gordon Craig of
        Gerald Fleming's book.  Tom Bower said that Gerald Fleming
        has failed to destroy David Irving's central hypothesis,
        and Gordon Craig said exactly the same.  That being so,
        why should I waste my time reading that book, apart from
        looking up specific references, because undoubtedly
        Fleming has done very detailed research, but I am not a
        Holocaust historian.  If I was writing a book about the
        Holocaust, then no doubt I would consult Fleming.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  This does not really go to the Holocaust,
        does it? It goes to Hitler's knowledge of the shooting by
        the Einsatzgruppen.
   A.   Yes, but I can only repeat that my attention was never
        drawn to this document, I never saw it in that book, there
        is no reason why I should have done.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It has not yet been established there is any
        evidence you actually saw this although I think the
        evidence does suggest you had an opportunity to find it.

.          P-64

   MR RAMPTON:  I make it quite clear I shall invite----
   A.   I had an opportunity to find very large numbers of
        documents, my Lord.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It is a different thing, I accept that.
   A.   But I am very well known for not consulting other people's
        books.  If Gerald Fleming had sent me the document as a
        copy, which I would have expected him to have done, then
        I would of course have taken it into account.

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