Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day014.03
Last-Modified: 2000/07/20

   Q.   Again, I have to ask the question this way.  Would it
        surprise you to hear that the number is way out of
        sequence by several weeks?
   A.   In general, if you look at the files -- I am not
        completely surprised but the thing is, the way the files
        were created, the files quite often have things not in
        sequence, even in the Auschwitz archive.  So it is very

.          P-18

        difficult sometimes to see.  Normally what happens is a
        file is built up, that the earliest documents are at the
        back and then, of course, as new documents come in, the
        documents ultimately get their final order.
   Q.   But you agree that all the other documents, in these ten
        you have provided, the numbers are in serial sequence?
   A.   In serial sequence?
   Q.   I have just checked them and they are, in so far as they
        are part of the same series?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  They are put together for the purposes of
        this clip.
   MR IRVING:  I appreciate that, my Lord.
   A.   I just picked up some things from a pack I had last
        night.  I just was going through what I had in my hand.
   Q.   The very last question is this. Was Jahrling an SS
        Sturmbannfuhrer?
   A.   I think Jahrling was actually a Zivilarbeiter.
   Q.   Why is he on the second page of this document signing as
        an SS Sturmbannfuhrer, the one that has been provided?
   A.   It seems that the original document was obviously meant to
        be signed by Jahrling, but this is an abschrift and he
        initialled this thing.  Whatever the abschrift was made
        of, whatever copy the abschrift was made of, had his
        initials on it and this happens quite often.  Since the
        original signed copy went to Kammler, which was signed by
        Bischoff, then quite often there would be a little -- one

.          P-19

        of the other people would just ----
   Q.   Professor van Pelt, I think you have misunderstood my
        question.  Would you look at page 2, please?
   A.   Yes.  I see Jahrling, yes.
   Q.   It appears to have been signed three lines from the bottom
        Gezeichnet Jahrling SS Sturmbannfuhrer.
   A.   It says "Zentralbauleitung der Waffen SS und Polizei" on
        the top, which means this is signed by the leader, the
        chief architect which was SS Sturmbannfuhrer Bischoff at
        the time, but the copy which was available to the person
        who wrote the Asbchrift must have had Jahrling's signature
        on it, which is something which happens quite often, that
        you see another signature than Bischoff's in actually the
        copies which are in the archive.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Does "gezeichnet" actually mean "signed".
   MR IRVING:  Yes.
   A.   If means "signed" here, but I presume that this person who
        was writing this Asbchrift had in some way ----
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I follow what you are saying.
   MR IRVING:  Is it not correct civil service procedure to put
        the letters "iA" if you are signing on behalf of someone?
   A.   Yes, bit I do not think we are here in a kind of typical
        Civil Service condition.  We have seen that people are all
        over the place in the way they are actually formatting
        these documents.
   MR IRVING:  My Lord, I have no further questions.

.          P-20

   MR RAMPTON:  Well, sorry, I do have some by way of
        re-examination.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  You may want some re-examination.
                 < Re-examined by MR RAMPTON, QC
   Q.   Can we take that last point first?  Can you take page 1,
        please?  In the bottom left-hand corner of the page is a
        column what looks a bit like names?
   MR IRVING:  It is a distribution list.
   MR RAMPTON:  Thank you, Mr Irving, but I am asking the witness
        questions.  "Verteiler", do you see that?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   And the last name on that might be "Jahrling", might it?
   A.   Yes, that is Jahrling.  So Jahrling got a copy of this letter.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That is the point you have made, that is the
        only indication of who signed it available to the person
        who did the Auschwitz.  So they put "gezeichnet" by Jahrling?
   A.   Yes.
   MR RAMPTON:  Yes.  Do you notice, please on page 4 a signature
        over a Sturmbannfuhrer?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Whose signature is that?
   A.   That is Bischoff's signature.
   Q.   What about page 7 over the same word Sturmbannfuhrer?
   A.   That is not Bischoff's signature, but it was ----

.          P-21

   Q.   Somebody has written "signed Bischoff"?
   A.   Yes, what we see here is we see that there is a little
        note on the lower corner, the lower on page 7, it says Fur
        die Richtigkeit der Asbchrift, which says, this is
        Pollock, I think it is Pollock, SS Untersturmfuhrer, and
        so Pollock now has put the name of Bischoff, signed in his
        own handwriting Bischoff's name, since we are dealing here
        with an Asbchrift.  So in some way Pollock has done by
        hand what in some way occurred in page No. 2 which is
        typed.
   Q.   There is only one other thing I need to ask you about and
        it is this.  Mr Irving seems to take the point, if I have
        understood it, that if the reference number is typed
        rather than handwritten, one must expect to find the word
         "Abschrift" on top of the document.  Can you look at page
        3?  Is there "Abschrift" on top of the document?
   A.   No, that not Abschrift.
   Q.   And is the reference number typed or handwritten?
   A.   The reference number is typed.
   Q.   And at page 6 we see Abschrift and a typed reference
        number, but what about page 10?
   A.   Page 10, it was typed and it was corrected by hand.
   Q.   And there is no Abschrift on top of it?
   A.   No, there is no Abschrift.
   MR IRVING:  It is not actually a letter register number there;
        it is the file number.

.          P-22

   A.   [German].
   MR RAMPTON:  Well, this is the third or fourth example so
        perhaps the point is made.  What about page 13?
   A.   Page 13, it is typed.
   Q.   It is typed and there is no "Abschrift" on top of it?
   A.   Yes.
   MR RAMPTON:  Yes, thank you.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Can I ask you the same question, Professor,
        that I asked you when you gave evidence yesterday which is
        whether the points that have been put to you this morning
        raise something of a doubt in your mind about the
        authenticity of this document?
   A.   No, it does not.
   Q.   The point about the year not being included, is there
        anything in that?
   A.   I think it is a good observation, but what we see also
        here, you see if we look at this Moscow, this Moscow
        document, what we see that the numbers were actually typed
        in later.  It seems to be that there is a -- it is a
        slightly different - also when we look at the persons, it
        seems they may made up first the letter and that
        ultimately they were -- this letter was drafted and the
        numbers were put in after some kind of final
        consultation.  It is a very marked difference with the
        second copy with Domburg.  It seems to be that the final
        numbering, the number, was brought in later and I can

.          P-23

        quite imagine that there was a slip occurred at that moment.
   MR IRVING:  May I enquire on what basis you say that the
        numbers were typed in later?
   A.   It seems that if we look at the way, if we look at, for
        example, No. 340 personen, the 340 seems to be almost done
        slightly sharper than "persona".  If we can compare that
        to 1943 on top, I do not know, I mean, but it seems to be
        that it is -- that my sense would be that they were added
        later, that there was a first draft made, and especially
        if we look at the "31550/" in the brieftagebuch number,
        again the slash seems to come very close to the zero,
        almost as if they put it back in the typewriter and put in
        the numbers.
                  Now, it is also possible, of course, that they
        had cleaned their numbers.  You know, these typewriters,
        these manual typewriters, they would get very messy at a
        certain moment and especially as in Auschwitz they were
        reusing the same, how do you call it, ribbon constantly
        because there was a great lack of it.  They get very
        smudgy at a certain moment, and also the letters get very
        smudgy, so maybe they had cleaned the numbers to be
        absolutely certain that these numbers would be clear.
        I cannot say.  But my sense would be, if you look at the
        brieftagebuch number, that it is possible that they were,
        that it was added later, also because it goes left of the

.          P-24

        original, how do you call it ----
   MR IRVING:  The margin.
   A.   The margin, and in the other things it seems to be in
        generally on the margin.  So that also indicates that it
        was generally added later.  So, you know, you cannot be
        absolutely sure about it.  But, it seems to be that it was
        not regular that the person was typing that heading and at
        that moment was actually putting on all the information.
        So since the information was put in later, maybe it is
        simply the 43 slipped.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes?
   A.   But it is speculation.  We cannot be certain about it.
   Q.   Thank you very much.  Can I give you back your original?
        I am ashamed to say I have made a slight mark on it, not
        realising.
   A.   You can keep it if you want because I have a copy now.
   Q.   But this is the original?
   A.   This is the original copy from Auschwitz.  That is why it
        is stamped.  If you want to keep it, since it has a stamp
        on it?
   Q.   All right.  Thank you.  Can I say one or more thing?  On
        the back of it, of that copy you have, actually has the
        actual file in which it is.  It says BW34.  It is on the
        back, so that is the actual file in which that document
        can be found.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Thank you very much.

.          P-25

                     (The witness stood down)

   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Rampton, where shall I put this clip?
   MR RAMPTON:  In tab 4 of K2, the second Auschwitz file.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Immediately after page 49?
   MR RAMPTON:  I would think so.  In due course I am going to
        sort mine into chronological order.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  So further cross-examination of Mr Irving
        now?
   MR RAMPTON:  Yes.

(MR DAVID IRVING, recalled.  Cross-Examined by MR RAMPTON, QC, continued.)

   A.   I have two things which I wish to say here from the box,
        my Lord, if I may?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes.
   A.   One goes to yesterday, the letter, you remember, from the
        man who had been in an Aufraumungs Kommando, do you
        remember, and who had had knowledge of 30,000 records of
        30,000 in Dresden.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Dresden, yes?
   A.   Back on Dresden.  I just want to draw attention to the
        fact that the letter was dated sometime in 1965, four
        years after the book was written.  That is a reference to
        page 538 of the Evans report.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, thank you.
   A.   My Lord, I provided to your Lordship a copy of the actual
        order of the day which was missing from the bundle,

.          P-26

        and ----
   Q.   The Tagesbefehl?
   A.   That is right, and I have provided you with an English
        translation of it.
   Q.   Thank you very much.
   A.   And in view of the fact that the Defence, at least in
        their catalogue, relied on a letter that Mr Kimber wrote
        to me, which I complained of as being prejudicial, I
        have put in the clip for your Lordship the reply that
        I sent to him.
   Q.   Just pause a moment.  The Tagesbefehl we ought to put
        into...
   A.   It does not really add or subtract anything from the case,
        but your Lordship should really have a copy of the
        document we spent most of yesterday talking about.
   Q.   I quite agree.  Mr Rampton, where would it go?
   MR RAMPTON:  This ...
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  This is the genuine one?
   A.   No, my Lord.  This was the fake one.
   MR RAMPTON:  If you look on the second page, my Lord, you will
        see it has the ----
   A.   I do not know whether there actually ever was a genuine
        one.  I telephoned with Mr Bergander in Berlin this
        morning, and he said that the man who gave him the
        so-called genuine one had copies of both.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think page 14A, is that right?

.          P-27

   A.   The other only little bundle I have gave your Lordship
        this morning was ----
   Q.   Just pause a moment, and let us get this into the right
        place.  Is that right?  It is a question of where it goes
        in the chronological sequence otherwise it gets lost.
        Come on, we are wasting time.
   MR RAMPTON:  My Lord, I have not got my Dresden file here so I
        am afraid I cannot help.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  No, can Miss Rogers find out where it should go?
   MR RAMPTON:  Can we sort it out?
   A.   The only other thing I gave your Lordship was just five
        photographs of the Goebbels diary so you know what we are
        talking about when we come on to the Goebbels matter.
        That is the boxes and so on that they came in.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Thank you very much.
   MR RAMPTON (To the witness):  Mr Irving, Hans Almeyer, I think
        you first discovered him in June 1992?
   A.   I think it was June 2nd 1992, yes.

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