Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day010.11 Last-Modified: 2000/07/20 Q. Well, the British had ways of identifying people. We had lists of names, we had the code breaking intercepts and so on. We knew who was who. A. Mr Broad was, as far as we know, a Rottenfuhrer. I do not think his name was very high on the list of people the British were looking for. Q. The fact remains that he had a guilty conscious because he had participated in shootings in Auschwitz concentration camp, and eventually he was put on trial, not by the British, but by the Germans. The British treated him in some special way, is this correct? A. He was, he became an interpreter in the camp and then at a certain moment when he gave his evidence it was recognized that he was a very important witness. Q. Yes. He is one of your eyewitnesses for the existence of the pipes on the roofs, admittedly at a distance, but he described, if I remember his testimony in the Tesh case correctly, these pipes on the roof being opened and people pouring stuff in. He described six of them rather than four, is that correct? A. Again I think we should look at the material that is in my report, but I think at least I can say right now that what I remember that in the Tesh case he refers to a gassing happened in crematorium (i), that the particular incident you refer to. But again I think we should, before we have a final conclusion on that, look at the actual evidence . P-90 given in the Tesh case because I thought it was crematorium No. (i) he was talking about. Q. Is it known to you that Pery Broad was a Brazilian national? A. Yes, I know that. Q. In other words, he was not a German national, he was a Brazilian national. Was Brazil fighting on the side of the Allies in World War II? A. I think that ultimately Brazil joined, yes. Q. And yet he was wearing the uniform of the SS, of an enemy power and he was committing these crimes in the uniform of an enemy power? A. I would like to remind the judge that many people in the SS were actually Vorstattue who had passports from different countries, from countries other than Germany. MR JUSTICE GRAY: The significance of the fact he was Brazilian is escaping me at the moment, but... MR IRVING: I was about to say, would not the fact that he was a member of an allied nation fighting in German uniform have put him in precisely the same category as William Joyce or John Amery, and have exposed him to being put on trial in Brazil for treason? Was this not another threat that was hanging over his head at the time he was in captivity? A. I cannot possibly comment on that. Q. But you do agree that he was technically committing . P-91 treason by fighting in the uniform of an enemy power? A. I think that Mr Broad in May 1945 probably had other things on his mind than that particular issue of if Brazil was going to ask for his extradition. Q. Do you use the statement of a witness called Hans Stark as proof of the gassings? A. I have the statement in my report, yes. Q. Yes. In section 9, the Leuchter report of your report -- I am afraid again I do not know the page number -- you quoted from it and I will quote the passage that you have used, in your language: "As early as autumn 1941, gassings were carried out in a room in the small crematorium which had been prepared for this purpose. The room held 200 to 250 people"? MR RAMPTON: 514, my Lord. MR IRVING: Thank you very much. I am indebted. I will begin again. A. We are talking about Stark now, the Stark testimony? Q. The testimony of the eyewitness Hans Stark: "As early as autumn 1941" -- this goes more to the question of your treatment of sources rather than crematorium No. (ii). "As early as autumn 1941 gassings were carried out in a room in the small crematorium which had been prepared for this purpose. The room held 200 to 250 people, had a higher than average ceiling, no windows only a specially insulated door with bolts like those of an airtight . P-92 door." Is that your translation of that document? A. Yes, this is my translation -- no, this is actually an existing translation. If we go to the quote, we see it was done by Deborah Burnstone. Q. Deborah? A. Burnstone. Q. Does it also give the original German of the text? A. No, it is not. Q. Did you take any trouble to ascertain the original German of that text? A. No, I did not. Q. If I tell that you the word "airtight", the word translated as "airtight door", in the original German is Luftschutzer, is that how you would have translated it? A. An airtight door as a Luftschutzer door? Q. In the original German of Hans Stark it is "Luftschutzer" which has been translated ---- A. If you show me the passage, Mr Irving, I am happy to confirm or not that, indeed, that is the way ---- Q. I am putting one word to you. The original German says not "airtight door" in English, but "Luftschutzer" in German. Would you tell the court what "Luftschutzer" translates into in English? MR JUSTICE GRAY: "Airtight door", I would have thought? A. "Luftschutz" in general, "luft" means "air raid". Q. Air protection. . P-93 A. Luftschutz ---- Q. "Luftschutz", yes, I see. MR IRVING: Is an air raid and air raid [German], my Lord? Now, either inadvertently or deliberately, somebody and you say it is Burnstone has mistranslated that word from a totally harmless and, in fact, significant "air raid door" into the rather more sinister "airtight door"? A. In the context of quite a sinister description, I would say. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, look at the context. MR IRVING: I beg your pardon? MR JUSTICE GRAY: Look at the context. As I understand it, she actually said "like those of an airtight door", but this is in the context of gassings in 1941 and Zyklon-B being poured through holes in the roof. MR IRVING: My Lord, there are any number of eyewitness statements like that which are in the report. I am just looking here at the quality of the translation which is frequently tilted against or tilted in favour of the Holocaust definition. Your Lordship will remember that I have been trying to establish the case that these sinister door scattered around the camps at Auschwitz and Birkenhau were, in fact, provisions for the coming air raids and the Germans anticipated there were going to be gas attacks as well, as, indeed, did we, British, with our air raid shelters. . P-94 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I understand the suggestion, but what you cannot possibly say, Mr Irving, is that Hans Stark is describing an air raid shelter on the basis of this passage, can you? MR IRVING: I am concentrating here only on the door, my Lord. I have no other means of attacking the integrity of Hans Stark as a witness. I am looking here at the rather slipshod use of the word "airtight door" when the original is quite clearly referred to as looking just like an air raid shelter door of which we will be producing photographs to the court later on. This is of significance because the Defence rely on a number of photographs of doors found scattered around the compound of Auschwitz and Birkenhau, and we will show that these are standard German air raid shelter doors complete with peep holes. I think this is the time I would ask your Lordship to look at the little bundle of five pages of documents I produced this morning. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, certainly. MR IRVING: I have not yet handed it to your Lordship. It is here. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Where are we going to put this? Shall we put it in ---- MR IRVING: J, I think, my Lord. MR JUSTICE GRAY: --- J? . P-95 MR IRVING: I have started a new numbering system which will go all the way through with consistent consecutive numbers from now on. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I gathered that was being done. That is very helpful. We got as far, I think, as about 14 maybe. MR IRVING: We started with 00, unfortunately. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am only up to 11, so something has gone wrong. MR IRVING: The 0 now comes after the 11. The one I have given you should come after 11, my Lord. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am going to put it for the time being - - actually it is 12. Yes? MR IRVING (To the witness): These are three or four Germans documents. They are significant because they refer to trips made from Auschwitz to Dessau to pick up Zyklon- B, truck loads of Zyklon-B. Are you familiar with this kind of signal or radio message? A. Well, I am not familiar with this particular one. Q. Not with this particular one? A. I have seen -- I absolutely do not doubt, I do not doubt the -- you know, the integrity of the thing. Q. If you will look at page 1 rather than the first one, page 0, if you look at page 1 as numbered at the bottom, you will see the signal at the bottom looks rather sinister, does it not? I have translated it on page 2. It is a message from Berlin to the Kommandant of Auschwitz, . P-96 effectively, giving driving permission. Every time they made a journey by truck because of the shortage of fuel, they had to have permission from Berlin. "Permission herewith given for one five tonne truck with trailer to Dessau and back for the purpose of fetching materials for the Jew resettlement. This permit is to be handed to the driver to take with him". It is signed Levehenshal who is at Berlin still at that time. What interpretation would you put on that message, October 2nd, 1942? A. That a truck, a five tonne truck, is sent to Dessau to collect material for the Jews' settlement. Dessau, as we know from other telegrams and as we know also from the rest of the record, was the location where the Zyklon- B was being produced in one of the factories. So, the context of what we know also of the other messages shows that this is most likely a permission to collect in a five tonne truck Zyklon-B from the original manufacturer. Q. In fact, more than five tonnes because they are taking a trailer as well, are they not? A. With a trailer, yes. Q. So they are collecting over five tonnes -- it would be a reasonable assumption, based on this document, that they are collecting over five tonnes of some material which is probably Zyklon-B cyanide pellets? A. Yes. I mean, I do not know exactly the weight, but I think that in the document I have written (of which you . P-97 have a copy) on your suggestion more or less that I have dealt with this matter about how much the truck would have, most likely would have carried. Q. It is specified clearly in this report, in this telegram, that it is for the Jew resettlement, for the Judenumsiedlung? A. For the Judenumsiedlung, yes. Q. That makes it even more sinister, does it not? A. Given the fact what the word "Judenumsiedlung" had come to mean in 1942, yes, this would be quite a sinister document. Q. Will you now turn over the page to page 3 which you can take it is a translation of the upper telegram on page 1? A. I am sorry? Q. Page 3 at the foot of -- you have no page 3? A. I have page 3, but I look at No. 1. Q. Yes. A. At No. 1, the upper telegram. Q. It is a translation of the upper telegram No. 1? A. Yes, OK. Q. This is from Gluks(?). Who is Gluks? A. Gluks is the Chief of the Inspectorate for concentration camps. Q. He has the rank of something like a Brigadier General, does he not? A. Yes. . P-98 Q. This again is a driving permit sent to Auschwitz concentration camp. A. Yes. Q. Answering a request: "Permission herewith given for one automobile", a car, "to go from Auschwitz to Lischmannstadt and back on September 16th 1942 for the purpose of inspecting the experimental station for field kitchens for Operation Reinhard. This permit is to be handed to the driver to take with him"? A. I think your translation is wrong there, Mr Irving.
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