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Shofar FTP Archive File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day010.06

Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day010.06
Last-Modified: 2000/07/20

   Q.   Coming out of these non-existent holes in the roof, is
        that correct?
   A.   Whatever.  What happened was that when the transports were
        smaller, one of the big problems in the gassing the
        Germans had was that normally they had to fill up the
        whole gas chamber for the gassing really to go efficient.
        So by actually dividing the gas chamber up into two, they
        could gas a group in the small gas chamber at the back,
        and then they could use the front room after the gassing
        for work which otherwise would be done in the much more
        tight confinement of actually the little porch or up at
        the exit of the elevator in the incineration room.
   Q.   Can I ask what your source is for that statement?
   A.   The source for the statement that there were two gas
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That they divided the gas chamber into two
        and used one half only for gassing?
   MR IRVING:  Is this eyewitnesses again or do you have documents

.          P-45

        that support that?
   A.   No, there are eyewitnesses for that.
   Q.   Yes.  In other words, you do not have a document apart
        from these sketches from memory ----
   A.   I mean, at a certain moment if eyewitnesses say that
        gas chamber was divided in two at the end of 1943, and
        Mr Bacon, for example, testifies to it that there has
        a gassing in the Eichmann trial, that he came into the
        chamber to warm up, and that there has been a gassing
        the second gas chamber right at the back, Mr Bacon did
        need to prove one way or another about what was
        where.  I mean, he was a kid who came into that gas,
        that gas chamber.
   Q.   Can we linger on No. 7 because I am very puzzled on
        business of people extracting the teeth and cutting
        hair inside the gas chamber with the bodies still
        where they lay?
   A.   No, the bodies -- we do not know exactly ----
   Q.   He is telling us here in this picture, is he not?  You
        yourself drew attention to what otherwise we might not
        have noticed -- thanks very much -- the wire mesh in
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Irving, I think the evidence is, and
        may not accept it, that these bodies had been moved
        the half of the gas chamber where they had been gassed
        into the other half where the removal of the hair and

.          P-46

        teeth took place.
   MR IRVING:  And they just left this wire mesh column for no
        reason -- it was kind of left over from ----
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It was historical.  I think that is the
   A.   The second gas chamber -- there were two gas chambers,
        they were right one behind the other -- the second one
        used also when there were transports.  We have a small
        at the back.  I mean, basically, half of the original
        chamber is used for small transports and the two are
        for big transports.  Of course, all the Zyklon-B
        introduction devices remain in that first room because
        room is on occasions also used.
   Q.   And you notice that none of these people are wearing
        masks of any kind, although they are handling bodies
        have clearly been contaminated with hydrogen cyanide?
   A.   I do not want at the moment to go into exactly ----
   Q.   Well, I do because this is an important point.
   A.   The testimony is that people were wearing gas masks
        they went into the gas chamber itself to take the
        out; that when these bodies were out, the dentists,
        so-called dentists, did not need any gas masks any
more to
        handle the bodies.
   Q.   They had been subjected to doses of hydrogen cyanide,
        hundreds of bodies, and yet these people are just
        them like this?

.          P-47

   A.   And the hydrogen cyanide by that time had been taken
        of the gas chamber by ventilators.
   Q.   How long did that procedure last then?  I mean, we are
        trying to get some idea of the time scale of the
   A.   Around half an hour.
   Q.   For all the hydrogen cyanide to evaporate off these
        so these people could work on them quite harmlessly?
   A.   The ventilators, again eyewitness testimony says that
        ventilators after the gassing that took around 20, 30
        minutes to take the gas out of the gas chamber.
   Q.   Professor van Pelt, are you aware of a news item in
        newspapers about two years ago, an American student
        committed suicide with cyanide and when the rescue
        went in, the paramedics went in, nine of them were
        overcome by the fumes and were hospitalized
   A.   I did not read the Canadian papers, I am sorry to say.
   Q.   This was an American newspaper and reported in the
        European press as well.  I have the press clipping if
        are interested.  Nine of them were overcome by fumes
        one body of a man who had committed suicide with
        and they had to be hospitalized.  So, on the face of
        this is quite an improbable picture we are looking at,
        that is true?
   A.   I think eyewitnesses will say that this is, indeed,
        happened.  People with gas masks go in the gas chamber

.          P-48

        remove the bodies and people without gas masks work on
        bodies after they have been removed from the gas
   Q.   Have you also read the testimony of some of the
        eyewitnesses, that they went in there smoking
        and they went in there eating sandwiches, despite the
   A.   My Lord, you will find my discussion on that whole
        in my expert report.  Mr Irving at the moment is
        to an argument which has been made by Professor
        Faurisson.  It is based on a complete falsification,
        misreading, misrepresentation, of the testimony of
        Mr Hirst.
   Q.   Of Mr Hirst?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  We can come to that in due course, no
   MR IRVING:  In other words, some eye witnesses we have to
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  --- but at the moment, Mr Irving -- just
        listen to me; I would like to get some structure into
        if we can -- we are taking Professor van Pelt through
        reasons other than eyewitnesses for saying that ----
   MR IRVING:  This, of course, is clearly an eyewitness
again, is
        it not?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Irving, will you just listen?  We are
        taking Professor van Pelt through his evidence for
        that crematorium No. 9ii) was used as a gas chamber,

.          P-49

        evidence apart from the eyewitnesses.  We have seen
        photographs.  We have now seen the Olaire drawings.
        we move on and see whether there is any other evidence
        relies on; if not, you can move on.
   MR IRVING:  My Lord, I would like just to linger two or
        more minutes with the Olaire drawings because I have
        really had my say on them.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  All right.
   MR IRVING:  First of all, it is not correct that this is
        another form of eyewitness evidence, if I can put it
        that, Professor van Pelt?  This is an eyewitness who
        the capability of drawing as well as speaking about
        he claims to have seen, is that correct?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   He is an eyewitness.  Would you say that he is an
        eyewitness who is normally balanced and in command of
        faculties or is there anything odd about him?
   A.   I am not a psychologist.  I think that these drawings,
        these drawings certainly seem to suggest, especially
        we look at the architectural plans, when we look at
        section of the building, that his powers of
        were perfectly in tact.
   Q.   I must say there is a difference between the
        plan which he provided in 1946 and the rather more
        pictures and, of course, you know what I am talking
        earlier.  Would you look at the picture No. 5 which is

.          P-50

        exterior of the crematorium with flames and smoke
        from the chimney.  Now, would you agree that these
        crematoria, in which the Germans had invested a great
        of money in building, would have been built to the
        design standards?
   A.   Design standards of what, Mr Irving?
   Q.   For crematoria, following all the appropriate
   A.   Mr Irving, we know very well that the Auschwitz
        did not follow the usual civilian crematoria design
   Q.   Is there one single photograph, apart from the forged
        put by the Simon Wiesenthal Centre in their brochure
        (which they have admitted is a forgery) showing the
        chimneys of the Auschwitz crematoria smoking?
   A.   There is one ----
   Q.   Even smoking, let alone flaming like this one?
   A.   There is one photo, as far as I remember, in the
images of
        the Hungarian action of 1944 which actually shows some
        smoke coming from a crematorium chimney.
   Q.   This is the photograph I am referring to which the
        Wiesenthal Centre have admitted now because they have
        shown the comparison with the original, unretouched
        photograph.  Can I describe this photograph to you?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Do you know about this?
   A.   No, I do not know about the challenge to this

.          P-51

   MR IRVING:  Well, it is a photograph showing prisoners
        from the Hungarian action in the foreground, and in
        background can be seen a chimney of a crematorium.  On
        original photograph the chimney is not smoking, but in
        version posted by the Simon Wiesenthal Centre in its
        publicity smoke has mysteriously appeared?
   A.   I refer to the published version of the photo and the
        of the photo, which actually is a copy of the photo, a
        print of the photo, which I have seen in Auschwitz.
        I have never seen the Simon Wiesenthal publication.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Irving, the position is you will have
        prove that in due course.
   MR IRVING:  I will bring those photographs to court, my
        (To the witness):  One more question about the Olaire
        pictures.  Of course, have you seen all the Olaire
        pictures or just the ones you have produced at the
   A.   I have seen all the Olaire pictures.
   Q.   Yes, would it be right to say that he has a prurient
        interest in the female form?
   A.   I do not know how this is relevant.  I mean...
   Q.   Concerning his mental balance.
   A.   I think ----
   Q.   Or the purpose for which these illustrations were made
        let us put it like that.
   A.   I think that if one would judge the ability of someone
        bear witness on the basis of their interest in the

.          P-52

        form, I think that not many people would be able to
   Q.   Would you agree that in almost every single one of
        pictures he has drawn, for whatever purpose -- there
        another photograph that I have given there which is
not in
        your collection -- there are naked women full frontal
        to the artist's brush, so to speak, and that there is
        reason whatsoever that he should have made these
        in that way unless he intended to sell them.  Is that
        fair speculation?
   A.   Mr Irving, I do not want to comment on what I
        your suggestion is that we are dealing here with a
        pornographer.  I think it is absolutely not worth me
to go
        into that.
   Q.   I did not use the word "pornography".  I said that his
        purpose in drawing these pictures was to produce a
        marketable item which he could sell in the media at
   A.   Mr Irving, you will have prove to me, if you want to
me to
        comment on it, that he ever tried to sell these things
        the media.
   Q.   Let me put the question this way.  Is it likely that
        nearly all the females who became victims of the
        bestialities of the Nazis in Auschwitz were nubile,
        and attractive?
   A.   No, it is not very likely.

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